Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Servants, Friends and Retainers => Topic started by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2014, 11:56:40 AM

Title: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2014, 11:56:40 AM
I have seen Valya's last name appear as both versions depending on source, which one is correct, does anyone know? Thanks!
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Forum Admin on February 07, 2014, 02:55:29 PM
The 1889 Genealogy of the Russian Nobility published in Petersburg, in the French edition, lists the Noble Family name as "Dolgorukov"
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2014, 02:56:30 PM
Thanks, so is Dolgoruky another family completely, nothing to do with Valya? Or are they related?
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: rudy3 on February 07, 2014, 03:08:48 PM
The telephone directory Ves Petrograd of 1916 lists:

prince Sergey Alexandrovich Dolgorukij and princess Irina Vasilevna Dolgorukaya (address Moika 120), prince Petr Alexandrovich Dolgorukij and princess Olga Petrovna Dolgorukaya (Galernaya 77) and princess Sofia Alekseevna Dolgorukaya (English Embarkment 70)

All others are listed under Dolgorukov (9 princes) / Dolgorukova (6 princesses)
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2014, 03:18:08 PM
Thanks! I wonder if they are all part of same original family name, which ended up with spelling variations, or completely separate...
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Превед on February 07, 2014, 04:00:26 PM
It's the same family. I guess different branches would have assumed different spellings by 1914, but only a century earlier a Dolgorukov / Dolgorukiy used both form indiscriminately, as evidenced in the research dug up in the city of Penza's quest to establish if their улица Долгорукова should be renamed улица Долгорукого. See here. (http://www.penzarx.ru/blog/gorod-penza/ulitca-dolgorukova-ili-dolgorukogo)
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2014, 04:03:15 PM
It's the same family. I guess different branches would have assumed different spellings by 1914, but only a century earlier a Dolgorukov / Dolgorukiy used both form indiscriminately, as evidenced in the research dug up in the city of Penza's quest to establish if their улица Долгорукова should be renamed улица Долгорукого. See here. (http://www.penzarx.ru/blog/gorod-penza/ulitca-dolgorukova-ili-dolgorukogo)

Thank you very much, that's what I wanted to know! :)
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Forum Admin on February 07, 2014, 05:15:40 PM
It is not the same family.. The official Genealogy of the Russian Nobility of 1889 makes no mention of any change of spelling nor the name Dolgoruky. Vasily Alexandrovich Dolgorukov was born in 1868 to Prince and Princess Alexander Vasilievich and Mary Sergeyevna Dolgorukov. This is the spelling in the book.

They should not be used interchangeably and Dolgoruky is incorrect entirely.
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Превед on February 07, 2014, 05:59:55 PM
It is not the same family.

How come the English Wikipedia introduces Princess Yurievskaya as:
"Princess Yekaterina Mikhailovna Dolgorukova (Екатерина Михаиловна Долгорукова), also known in English as Catherine Dolgorukova, Catherine Dolgoruki, or Catherine Dolgorukaya"

The same with Tsaritsa Мария Долгорукая (Долгорукова) / Mariiya Dolgorukaya (Dolgorukova), Ivan the Terrible's seventh wife.

And that the genealogist and dissident Prince Pyotr Vladimirovich Dolgorukov wrote a book called "Сведения о роде князей Долгоруковых", 1842, (Accounts of the Princely Family of Dolgorukov) and in another one, "Notices sur les principales familles de la Russie, par le prince Pierre Dolgouruky", (!) 1842, writes:
"Les princes Dolgorouky, Même origine. Leur appellation dérive du surnom de l'un de leurs aïeux, Dolgorouky (longue main)....."

I think it's a question of which languge used: In Russian they are nearly always known as Dolgorukov, in French sometimes by the more archaïc Dolgoruky.
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Forum Admin on February 07, 2014, 10:47:03 PM
The volume I reference is "L'Annuaire de la Noblesse Russie" first edition published in French in St Petersbourg 1889. I will rely on it as accurate far more than Wikipedia.

The name Dolgoruky is nowhere mentioned in the book.
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: rudy3 on February 08, 2014, 01:55:27 AM
Princes Dolgoruky do exist. For example the ones I mentioned above, listed in the Ves Petrograd directory.

Here about prince Sergey Alexandrovich Dolgoruky, who was enlisted in the suite of the Empress Maria Feodorovna:

http://pskovgrad.ru/war/pervaya-mirovaya-vojna/26814-knyaz-dolgorukiy-sergey-aleksandrovich.html
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Inok Nikolai on February 08, 2014, 09:31:36 AM
I have seen Valya's last name appear as both versions depending on source, which one is correct, does anyone know? Thanks!


Dolgorukov was his surname.

Many accounts mistakenly call him Dolgoruky/ Dolgorukii.

The Court Calendar (Pridvorny Kalendar) for 1917, p. 135, lists him as Prince V. A. Dolgorukov.

In “Last Days At Tsarskoe Selo”, p. 87 (and elsewhere), his own step-father, Count P. Benckendorff, calls him V. A. Dolgorukov.

The confusion may have arisen from the fact that V. A. Dolgorukov’s mother, Maria's maiden name was "Dolgorukaya" — i.e., she belonged to the Dolgoruky branch, but had married a Dolgorukov.

By 1917 there were only a few Princes Dolgoruky left: Sergei Alexandrovich, who had been an a-d-c to the Tsar, his brother Peter Alexandrovich, Peter's daughter Olga, and perhaps their uncle, Pr. Nicholas.

The Princes Dolgorukov were much more numerous.

BTW: Princess Yurievskaya was a Dolgorukova, and a distant cousin of the Pr. V. A. Dolgorukov under discussion here.

Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2014, 09:42:21 AM

Dolgorukov was his surname.

Many accounts mistakenly call him Dolgoruky/ Dolgorukii.

The Court Calendar (Pridvorny Kalendar) for 1917, p. 135, lists him as Prince V. A. Dolgorukov.

In “Last Days At Tsarskoe Selo”, p. 87 (and elsewhere), his own step-father, Count P. Benckendorff, calls him V. A. Dolgorukov.
The confusion may have arisen from the fact that V. A. Dolgorukov’s mother, Maria's maiden name was "Dolgorukaya" — i.e., she belonged to the Dolgoruky branch, but had married a Dolgorukov.
By 1917 there were only a few Princes Dolgoruky left: Sergei Alexandrovich, who had been an a-d-c to the Tsar, his brother Peter Alexandrovich, Peter's daughter Olga, and perhaps their uncle, Pr. Nicholas.
The Princes Dolgorukov were much more numerous.  BTW: Princess Yurievskaya was a Dolgorukova, and a distant cousin of the Pr. V. A. Dolgorukov under discussion here.

Thank you very much, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for... I was a little confused about why Valya was sometimes "Dolgorukov" and at other times "Dolgoruky" depending on source... This makes sense now!
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2014, 10:21:47 AM
I knew that the Dolgorukys were a very prominent old Russian noble family, and as mentioned above even Princess Yurievskaya, the second wife of Alexander II, was part of this family... Which was why it confused me a little to see "Dolgorukov" used interchangeably. I had a feeling that although the latter are more numerous, the former is the older spelling, but they all came from the same family root originally, going way back, as someone else mentioned...
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Превед on February 08, 2014, 07:24:59 PM
The volume I reference is "L'Annuaire de la Noblesse Russie" first edition published in French in St Petersbourg 1889. I will rely on it as accurate far more than Wikipedia.

The name Dolgoruky is nowhere mentioned in the book.

If there is no separate Dolgoruky family, it must then mean that it was all one and the same family, some of whom sometimes used the form Dolgoruky instead of Dolgorukov.
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Forum Admin on February 08, 2014, 08:23:47 PM
The 1889 Annuaire de la Noblesse Russie, the definitive work published in St. Petersburg very clearly makes no mention of any Noble family called Dolgoruky. The Dolgorukov family, the subjject of this question, was a noble family of the highest ranks.  If there was a branch called "Dolgoruky" it is from prior to 1650 and was of a far more minor nobility and thus can not be said to be the "same family". 
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: Svetabel on February 09, 2014, 12:22:15 AM
The volume I reference is "L'Annuaire de la Noblesse Russie" first edition published in French in St Petersbourg 1889. I will rely on it as accurate far more than Wikipedia.

The name Dolgoruky is nowhere mentioned in the book.

If there is no separate Dolgoruky family, it must then mean that it was all one and the same family, some of whom sometimes used the form Dolgoruky instead of Dolgorukov.

Right, there were 2 forms - Dolgorukov and Dolgorukiy - it's the same family. In  various sources one can find both forms - I often came across both of them in memoirs, correspondence and so on of XVIII-beg.XX centuries.
Title: Re: Valya Dolgorukov vs Dolgoruky
Post by: gleb on May 17, 2015, 02:45:47 PM
Does anyone have a photo of prince Николай Сергеевич Долгоруков (Nikolaj sergeevic Dolgorukov) who was ambassador in Rome between 1908 and 1912?
I can't find it anywhere...