Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Servants, Friends and Retainers => Topic started by: Almedingen on April 13, 2004, 02:59:50 PM

Title: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Almedingen on April 13, 2004, 02:59:50 PM
Thomas,

Could you tell us more about her memoirs?  What kinds of pictures does the book have?  Did you find the book interesting?  Does she give a lot of unknown facts about the Romanovs, etc.?

Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Janet_W. on April 13, 2004, 04:11:39 PM
Have her memoirs been published in English? So far I've only heard of them being published in French.  I have read her brother's book about Anastasia, but it would be great to be able to read what Tatiana Botkin says.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 14, 2004, 01:21:32 AM
Tatiana is buried at the cemetery at Sainte-Genevieve-des-Bois in Paris. I don't have her death date.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 23, 2004, 05:48:55 PM
I read that her brother died in the 1960s, and that she died "some twenty years later". The precise date i can't yet find..

Elisa

PS) LisaDavidson, that's great to know where she is now resting! May i ask how did you find the infos?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thierry on April 23, 2004, 06:06:34 PM
Sainte-Geneviève-des-Bois is not in Paris.

It is a small city near Paris.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Joanna Mayer on April 23, 2004, 10:45:58 PM
Thanks
I thought that this was a suburb of Paris. I was wrong!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 25, 2004, 12:24:06 AM
Sorry, I don't recall the source. I remember reading a list of who is buried there, and unfortunately don't know Paris or the cities around it well enough to even be able to pinpoint its location!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thierry on April 25, 2004, 06:02:55 AM
Is this that list ?

http://www.vgd.ru/CEMETRY/russians.htm
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 25, 2004, 02:13:36 PM
That looks like the one. All I have is a note that TBM was buried there, but no attribution. This must have been it, thanks!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: M_Breheny on April 29, 2004, 08:01:51 PM
"Lost Tales: Stories for the Tsar's Children" is a charming book of drawings and stories by Gleb Botkin.  The foreword states that Gleb's delightful illustrations were based on stories written by the grand duchesses and Alexei, apparently while they all were in Tobolsk.   I have wondered how Dr. Botkin's son was able to get his pictures and writings into the Governor's House for the children to look through and to make changes to the stories.  It must have been even more difficult for them to return the drawings/writings to Gleb.  

Mary
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 29, 2004, 10:28:36 PM
Yet another excellent point. It would be wonderful if Gleb's daugher and/or any other family members or associates might hear about this site, come online and tell us a bit more.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Greg_King on April 30, 2004, 12:46:59 AM
Dr. Botkin regularly took the drawings, stories, letters, notes, and presents between his children and the Imperial children back and forth between the Kornilov House and the Governor's House in Tobolsk.

Greg King
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nadya Arapov on May 28, 2004, 09:43:17 PM
According to Peter Kurth's website Tatiana Botkina Melnik died in 1986.

I believe she was divorced from Mr. Melnik and had reverted to her maiden name, however, I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: evelyne strechinsky on August 15, 2004, 07:35:59 PM
Just fell on your conversation  while I was looking for something else. For information, Mrs. Botkina Melnik's son, Constantin Melnik, was head of the French Intelligence and wrote many books after he retired from Secret Service. TBM was convinced that "Anastasia" was genuine and appeared on French TV in the 70's to support her case.Her granddaughter, Catherine, was with me at school at the time. It seems she co-wrote the book "'Au temps des tsars" with her grandmother. Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 03, 2005, 07:17:32 AM
Good morning.  I was an undergraduate at the University of Virginia, from 1966-1970.  And I had the pleasure of knowing Gleb Botkin personally, up till his death in 1969. I recall: 1) Gleb's usual lunch was a hot dog, always with "Mister Mustard." To this day I recall his answer to my complaint about how very hot it was. "But (my name) what is mustard FOR?" 2) I'm not sure how many people know this- but Gleb was very active in his own "Church of Aphrodite" and in fact had personally appeared before the NY state Supreme Court in 1939(?), to argue for his charter. (He told me the judge's comment on awarding him the charter had been "I guess it's better than worshipping Mary Baker Eddy.") The vast majority of Gleb's energy went into this church, especially trying to find someone to take it over, once he'd gone on to meet the Goddess in the sky, or wherever it was you go to meet Her.  It's just amazing to me today, to see how the Wiccans have tried to coopt Gleb as one of their own.  There was never the slightest hint of eroticism in Gleb's church (though he maintained that sexuality was a natural expression of love, and found great fault in what he saw as Christianity's disdain for it.)   But for Gleb it was never about sex- it was all about theology. And (if memory serves), his was a kind of process theism, in which the Goddess had "given birth" after a fasion, to the cosmos (he always used "cosmos" rather than "universe".) And the world evolves on its present course, much as a child does after being born.  3) Around 1968, the KGB paid a visit to Gleb in C'ville, to invite him to return to Russia. Gleb's answer to them was "No thanks, not after you murdered my father." I saw him shortly after the visit, and he did seem shaken by it.  4) Gleb chain-smoked Pall Mall non-filters, always with a fine cigarette holder.  He smoked so much, in fact, that his gray beard was brown all around his mouth.  5) Gleb seemed remarkably fit - I believe he died at age 69 in 1969.  I'd go out with him on his afternoon walks, and could barely keep up with him, even though at the time I was 18.  6) Gleb held regular "services"- in front of a statue of Aphrodite, and dressed in full archbishop regalia- complete with the female (cross/circle) symbol on top of the mitre he wore on his head. His wife Nadine also attended. Nadine had "converted" later on in life, which pleased Gleb immensely I think, though he hastened to point out he'd never once "pressured" her to do so. Gleb even published (at his own expense) a little book entitled "In Search of Reality"- softcover, which argued that Aphrodite was the supreme deity, and that creation had been "organic" much like a woman giving birth. 7) Nadine and Gleb were very close. She called him "Glebushka" and he always doted on her.

Gleb was a truly wonderful man. Everyone who knew him instantly liked him. Those of us who knew him count ourselves lucky.

Anyway, I thought you might enjoy a few "tidbits" about Gleb, from someone who knew him during his final years.

I don't know how Gleb's reputation has fared over the years since I knew him at U. Va.  But I do know that for those of us who knew him, he'll always be the same wonderful and remarkable man he was for us back then.

I'll check back from time to time, to offer more memories, and read the feedback.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 03, 2005, 09:20:01 AM
That's.... interesting Wahoo. I only know the Gleb from a Romanov stand-point and not a "personal" stand point. Some of the information on Gleb that you offered sure puts him in a different light to me. Did he ever talk to you about AA? Or his memories of the Imperial Russia he was raised in? I would be quite interested to hear what he passed on.

Thank you Wahoo for the information. Maybe this thread should be under Servants, Friends and Retainers? (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=friends)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: bluetoria on May 03, 2005, 09:21:01 AM
Hi Wahoo  :)

Thank you for posting your memories of Gleb. His church sounds rather unusual.
Did he speak much about his Russian memories & have many recollections of the Imperial Family?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Arleen on May 03, 2005, 09:46:16 AM
Hi Wahoo, Welcome to our forum.  Did Gleb and Nadine have children and what became of them, if they did?  Did you see any of his animal drawings?  There are many questions that come to mind, but I would appreciate an answer to these.
..Arleen
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 03, 2005, 10:20:49 AM
Gee. That was quick.  Please excuse the amateurish formatting here- I'll simply cut and paste your names/questions, and my replies to them:

LAURA MABEE: "Did he ever talk to you about AA? Or his memories of the Imperial Russia he was raised in? I would be quite interested to hear what he passed on."

My answer:  Yes of course Gleb spoke of her often.  And she was often in his home when I'd go visit. She even attended a lecture Gleb gave once, at one of the historical societies at U. Va.  With her face wrapped tightly in a scarf, to avoid recognition. She was quite paranoid. But not nearly as paranoid as her (very new) husband Jack Manahan, who at a picnic with Gleb, refused to shake my hand because the "CIA" was out to poison him, and I might be an agent wearing a poison ring.  That was quite sad actually- to see how Jack's lunacy harmed that old woman. She finally was removed from their home, by the Albemarle welfare agency, and I believe placed in a home of some kind. But everyone who knew them, knew that Jack was batty as a bedbug.

So yes, Gleb talked at length about Anna Anderson (Or I guess Anna Manahan?). I really don't want to discuss the merits of the case, but I will say his faith in her never wavered one iota.  

Yeah, I guess it should be in that other forum you mention. Sorry.

BLUETORIA:  Well, I was 18 when I knew Gleb. So I really didn't know much about the royals. He mentioned his books - The Firebird, the Real Romanovs and so on. And he'd sometimes talk about the Tsar- whom he obviously idolized.  He spoke of Rasputin as being just as crazy as we all know he was.  And although he didn't dwell on it, he of course felt a deep disdain for the communists, and saw them as little more than thugs and murderers.  I guess our conversations had more to do with religion, than with Romaov history. Gleb was very devoted to "Anna Anderson"- I got the impression he was her last friend on earth. And he was absolutely loyal and devoted to her and her cause.

ARLEEN: Thank you for the welcome.  No, Nadine and Gleb had no children.  He did of course have children living in Alabama, but I think they were from a previous marriage. I'm remembering back a long time here, but my recollection is that he and Nadine married later in life. He very seldom spoke of his children, and I got the feeling they weren't on very good terms, and Gleb felt that they saw Pop as an embarrassment, due to the Aphrodite church thingie.  I also believe they owned the house he lived in, there in C'ville.

As to his drawings- I never saw any animal drawings. He did show me a portfolio of some mildly erotic sketches he'd done. Including one of a man in bed with a smile on his face.  Certainly tame by today's standards, but for the 1960s it was mildly risque I guess.

Actually one of my fondest memories of Gleb, is the dream he told me about, the year before he died. He said he'd dreamed he was in heaven, visiting his brother, who'd died years earlier.  That they'd chatted a good while, but that he'd finally had to say goodbye, and tell his brother "I'm sorry, but I'm only dreaming. And I have to wake up now."    I remembered that when they told me Gleb had died.  I hope he got to room with his brother.

I certainly don't claim to be an authority on Gleb, or even know very much about him really. But I did know him for a couple of years, back when I was 18 and stupid.   When you get to be older, you have a list of "the 5 people I'm really glad I met in my life."

For me, Gleb's near the top of that list.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: bluetoria on May 03, 2005, 10:28:02 AM
Thanks a lot, Wahoo, for sharing your memories!  :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 03, 2005, 10:41:37 AM
Bluetoria- Well, it's a pleasure.

I should also mention, I guess-  Apparently the Soviets wanted to entice Gleb back to the USSR, as a propaganda coup.   To add legitimacy to their regime I guess.  The son of the great Dr. Botkin -which name apparently meant "dagger" in Scots, cf. Shakespeare's Hamlet: "When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life..."

Gleb said his family had come to the USSR from Scotland.

Hence the KBG visit to Gleb's house, was an effort to recruit/ entice the son of the great Dr. Botkin, back to his homeland.  It would have been quite a coup for them. But Gleb would have none of it.

I think Gleb was very saddened toward the end, that his Church of Aphrodite hadn't "taken off." He did manage to recruit one "priest"- one Andrew Hartsook, who when drafted into the army, applied to serve as a "chaplain," being a clergyman in a recognized established church.  The Army very politely said "No."  Andrew's still around- I've seen his comments on a web page devoted to AA.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Annushka on May 03, 2005, 11:22:25 AM
I thought that Marina Botkin Schweitzer, who was involved in the court battle over AA's dna tests, was Glebs's daughter.  Does anyone know?

Holly
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: lexi4 on May 03, 2005, 02:17:46 PM
First of welcome Wahoo.
Thank you for sharing your memories. I am enjoying reading them. Do you have any idea what convinced G. that AA was in fact An? Do you know how much contact he actually had with the IF while living in Russia.
How did he get to the United States?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 03, 2005, 02:55:32 PM
Thank you for the welcome, Lexi4.

I don't know how Gleb made it to the USA. He did speak (rather disdainfully) of an Orthodox priest, who refused to give up his seat in the very cramped boat, which would ferry their small party to freedom- I believe to Finland- I could  sense his bitterness as he recalled the priest's self-serving justification that "He had to survive, to carry on God's work." (I'm paraphrasing) But no, I don't know how he made it to the USA.

Nor do I know how much contact Gleb had with the royal family in Russia. Though I do know he played regularly with the children, especially Anastasia (see below).

His conviction that AA was indeed Anastasia was based on their having grown up together. He said she recalled things from their childhood, from their play,  that no one else could possibly know about.  Something along the lines of (say) a pet rabbit's nickname.  Or their favorite tree to climb.  Basically  Gleb said that she couldn't possibly NOT be Anastasia, and know all those things from their common shared childhood.  I mean, if you met someone you grew up playing with 50 years ago, the myriad shared memories between the two of you,  would be proof enough, that the other guy's who he says he is.  I confess I'm not "up to date" on all the evidence. But neither does it matter much to me. If you had known Gleb, as we knew him then, you would have believed him, simply because it was Gleb saying so. He was a very down-to-earth and level-headed fellow, in spite of the "Aphrodite"  thingie.

By the time I knew Gleb, from 1967-1969, his life revolved around the church he'd founded. My own interest in him wasn't the history- it was religion. He had a vast knowledge of religion in general, and enjoyed discussing it. I spent one whole summer (the summer of 1967) in his house, typing out a copy of his "Liturgy" for the church. He absolutely wouldn't take it out of his house- for fear of losing it. So I spent that entire summer copying it out, on his old typewriter.  I'd love to know what happened to his Liturgy, and the copy I made of it.

Anyway, I certainly don't know the "evidence" against Anna Anderson/Manahan. But I do know that Gleb wasn't the nefarious schemer I've seen him made out to be, here and there on the Net. He was a very kind and gentle old guy, who charmed everyone who met him.  

ADDENDUM:  I do recall one very funny story Gleb told me, from his appearance before an immigration judge. About an Italian fellow and his application for US citizenship.  It's one of my favorite stories, and I'll try to Post it in the next day or so.

Also- I have a picture of Gleb's small house in Charlottesville, which I took 2 years ago on a trip there. It's still standing, still in good shape, in fact has been renovated apparently. Is there some way to post pictures, from our computers? Or do they have to be on the Net to post here?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Lanie on May 03, 2005, 03:26:42 PM
Quote
His conviction that AA was indeed Anastasia was based on their having grown up together. He said she recalled things from their childhood, from their play,  that no one else could possibly know about.  Something along the lines of (say) a pet rabbit's nickname.  Or their favorite tree to climb.  Basically  Gleb said that she couldn't possibly NOT be Anastasia, and know all those things from their common shared childhood.  I mean, if you met someone you grew up playing with 50 years ago, the myriad shared memories between the two of you,  would be proof enough, that the other guy's who he says he is.  I confess I'm not "up to date" on all the evidence. But neither does it matter much to me. If you had known Gleb, as we knew him then, you would have believed him, simply because it was Gleb saying so. He was a very down-to-earth and level-headed fellow, in spite of the "Aphrodite"  thingie.


Gleb did not really have much contact with the IF as he says he did.  It seems like back when everyone was writing their books, it was Romanovmania--EVERYONE wanted to say, "Oh yes, I played with the Imperial Children!" or "I met the Emperor!" etc when they really didn't.

Thanks however for telling us all about him; I've wanted to know more about the fellow.  :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 03, 2005, 03:32:29 PM
Hi Lanie-

Well, what you say is certainly true.  Likewise,  maybe I didn't have as much contact with Gleb as I say I did.  We can never know anything with absolute certainty of course.  But within the parameters of my own particular story, I found Gleb to be very believable. Of course, I was 18 at the time. And when I was 18 I also found several girls "very believable" when they swore they'd love me "forever."

Who knows.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Val289 on May 03, 2005, 04:07:11 PM
Quote
I thought that Marina Botkin Schweitzer, who was involved in the court battle over AA's dna tests, was Glebs's daughter.  Does anyone know?

Holly



Yes, Holly - I believe that you're right.   I was always under the impression that  Marina Botkin Schweitzer was Gleb (and Nadine's ?) daughter.   I suppose it's very possible that Gleb was married earlier, and that his Marina is from his first marriage, although I don't recall ever hearing that.  I do have Gleb's book "The Woman Who Rose Again" at home, perhaps I can find some further information.  I think Penny Wilson and/or Greg King would probably know some more information, but don't know how active they are in posting anymore........  Thank you, Wahoo for sharing your information with us :)

-Val
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: lexi4 on May 03, 2005, 06:04:32 PM
Thank you Wahoo for sharing. I enjoy reading the posts. FYI, DNA testing has now proven that AA was not AN. There is a lot of information about that posted on other threads.
That being said, I am still very interested in hearing his recollections. You are fortunate that you knew him. I think we are close in age and I can tell you at 18 I probably wouldn't have cared about the history either. It was a different time.
Is his wife still alive?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: etonexile on May 03, 2005, 06:24:23 PM

Gleb Botkin founded a religion based on an ancient goddess?...And people are throwing stones at Jack Manahan and FS,AA,AM.... ::)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 03, 2005, 07:08:07 PM
Marina Botkin Schweitzer is indeed Gleb Yevgenivich's daughter by an earlier marriage. I don't recall how many times he was married, but at least twice.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: etonexile on May 03, 2005, 07:14:27 PM
Was anyone else in the "Church" besides Gleb?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Merrique on May 03, 2005, 08:02:13 PM
Quote
It's just amazing to me today, to see how the Wiccans have tried to coopt Gleb as one of their own.  There was never the slightest hint of eroticism in Gleb's church (though he maintained that sexuality was a natural expression of love, and found great fault in what he saw as Christianity's disdain for it.)   But for Gleb it was never about sex- it was all about theology.


Actually it would be correct to link Gleb with the Wiccan/Pagan religion since the church he founded was based on Wiccan/Pagan beliefs.Also wicca/paganism isn't a sex based religion,it's a nature based religion.
Sex has nothing to do with it.Not to sound rude or anything but you really should read more about wicca/paganism before you jump to conclusions and say incorrect things about it.

Anyway,it is interesting to hear about your memories of Gleb.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 04, 2005, 01:48:57 AM
Thanks to all who replied to my comments. And for your kind words of welcome.

Lexi4--  No, Nadine isn't still alive. She died many years ago- before Gleb I believe. But she's definitely no longer among the living. At least not here.

"FYI, DNA testing has now proven that AA was not AN."

Yes, I've heard that said.

Etonexile- I don't think it's "throwing stones" at Jack, to say that he was crazy. It's simply the truth.  If you'd known him, you'd have said he was crazy too. To paraphrase Forrest Gump, "Crazy is as crazy does." And Jack Manahan did lots of "crazy".   I've already mentioned how he refused to shake my hand, because I might be CIA, trying to kill him with my poison ring.   He'd do things like appear in tennis shoes at a formal dinner, because the rubber soles would protect him, in case the CIA ran a half million volts of electricity through the floor, to kill Jack. No, make no mistake about it- Jack Manahan was a loon.  But he had money, and came from a good family. So he wasn't considered "crazy" but just "eccentric."

Yes, Gleb did worship "The Goddess," but that didn't drive him to do crazy things- like live among filth and squalor as Jack did.  It didn't drive him to paranoia and fear the CIA was trying to kill him.  It didn't drive him to abuse his wife. Gleb's house was always tidy and neat. As was his person. He was well dressed, clean and groomed.  He cared for Nadine like a precious China doll. Jack Manahan (with all his money)  lived in sheer squalor, and treated Anna Anderson like a dog. Not out of malice, but simply because he was nuts.  It was so odd- seeing that stately old home in C'ville (in a very prime location I might add)  reduced to a garbage-strewn eyesore.   As though eight-year-old boys had turned the White House into their own private "clubhouse." The weed-choked lawn, littered with garbage,  filth all throughout the house, and little or no heat in winter. Her last years were lived in such filth (I saw it)  that finally social services removed her from the home. (Jack married her for her body- he'd orginally written Anna in Germany, asking her to ship her body to him after she died, so he could erect a monument to her in the USA. She wrote back, saying essentially "No, but why not take me now?")

Jack Manahan was disconnected from objective reality. I'm not "throwing stones" at him by reporting this. I'm just saying he was crazy. Everybody who knew him said the same thing. Because it was quite obvious that he was nuts. And Gleb wasn't.  Sure, Gleb worshipped Aphrodite. But  I'm not sure that's any "crazier" than (say) Mormons baptizing dead people.  Like Anne Frank and Adolph Hitler.  And worshipping Aphrodite is  probably no "crazier" than drinking blood that tastes like wine.  Or believing that an old guy named Bahá'u'lláh was Jesus, Buddha,  Mohammed and Quetzalcoatl to boot. Or killing a chicken after waving it over your head,  and tossing bread crumbs into the water, to get rid of your sins. A "crazy" religion is simply one we don't believe in. The only difference between Gleb's Aphrodite religion, and (say) the Lutheran or Mormon Church, is that Gleb's never "took off".   If we'd all worked a little harder back then, folks might well be watching "Goddess Love" on TV now, instead of the "Hour of Power".  At least Gleb never asked any of us for one penny of our money.  Can't say that about many other religions that I know of.  He never tried to sell us anything- no books or tapes. He did give me a copy (inscribed) of his "In Search of Reality," which I've treasured for many years.  That's very unusual actually- someone starting a new religion, and never asking for one cent of money, from potential followers.  He could very easily have turned a tidy sum from us. But he never asked for a penny.  U Go Gleb.

We were always welcome to drop by, but Gleb was completely undemanding. He never tried to get anything from us, and never tried to get us to do anything. I guess I mention this, in case this smacks of a "cult"- because it certainly wasn't that. Cults seek first and foremost, to alter your behavior. And Gleb never once tried to do that. It was more like dropping by for a chat.  My sister, who met Gleb in 1968, when she was 11 years old, still remembers him as a smiling old man who said something kind to a little girl.

LisaDavidson-  Again, I was 18 and stupid when I knew Gleb, but my memory is that Nadine and Gleb had no children together, that they'd married much later in their lives, after Gleb's kiddies had flown the coop.

Etonexile-  No need for quotes around "church." Gleb's was a licensed and chartered church (by the state of NY). Just as much as the RC or Southern Baptist Churches are.  There was a small group of people who attended Gleb's services- but no real membership roster. It was all very informal.  Gleb even performed one marriage that I know of. (The head of Slavic Languages at Alderman Library, U.Va.)  Hey, don't knock it- at the age of 18, I thought it was GREAT, worshipping a naked woman!  (I've worshipped quite a few others since then, and not one of them treated me half as well as the Goddess did.) I guess there were maybe 10 or so of us U. Va. students who dropped in from time to time. A few for the history lessons, but most just because Gleb was so darn interesting and we really liked him.

Merrique- Sorry if I offended you. I think I kind of knew that, but hey- men say stupid things sometimes, right?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: AGRBear on May 04, 2005, 09:35:04 AM
Wahoo, I've enjoyed your knowledge about Gleb, your wit and your frankness.

When was the last time you saw Gleb?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: etonexile on May 04, 2005, 10:02:45 AM
Isn't there a standard for a new church or religion...12 members or such?...I don't know if this is a national standard for tax purposes...

My mad or eccentric friends are alles the most interesting.... :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 04, 2005, 10:25:24 AM
AGRBear--   Thanks for the kind remarks. I guess the last time I saw Gleb was maybe 6 or 8 months prior to his death. I  hadn't been around that much. I did drive by his house a couple years ago, and took some pictures. It's been refurbished with vinyl siding.  He was very proud of the lightning rods he'd had installed on it.  Gleb never had a TV. But the first touchtone phone I ever saw, was in Gleb's house.

Etonexile-- Whatever the standard is now, Gleb met the standards in NY state when he chartered The Church of Aphrodite back in the 1930s.  That's what I liked about Gleb- he started OUT right at the top- as an Archbishop.  I had a chance to be a "hierophant"- but I said no- mostly because I didn't think that would impress women. I mean, who on earth even knows what a "hierophant" is?

Gleb  personally argued the case before the NY State Supreme Court.  I loved the judge's comment, that "Well, I guess it's better than worshipping Mary Baker Eddy."

As to "mad and eccentric friends"- I think that's the #1 qualification we require in a friend- to be interesting. No matter what other good qualities someone has, if (s)he's boring as powdered milk, it's not a very rewarding friendship.  And whatever else Gleb was, he was indeed interesting.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: lexi4 on May 04, 2005, 04:15:27 PM
Wahoo,
I love your posts. I enjoy your honesty. Keep posting. Actually, the worship of a female diety is not unique as I am sure you know. In some ways, I think he might have enjoyed more success with his church in this day and age. I personally think goddess worshiping took a nose dive after the Council of Nicea, but that is another topic that is probably not appropriate here. If you are interested in that comment send me a pm.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: etonexile on May 04, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
Ok....what sorts of festivals can we expext from the goddess worshipers?...treats?....we need many treats....yes....!!! ;D
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: bluetoria on May 04, 2005, 05:41:28 PM
Quote

 I had a chance to be a "hierophant"- but I said no- mostly because I didn't think that would impress women. I mean, who on earth even knows what a "hierophant" is?

 


Upon such things we build our lives!!  ;D ;D


Quote

As to "mad and eccentric friends"- I think that's the #1 qualification we require in a friend- to be interesting. No matter what other good qualities someone has, if (s)he's boring as powdered milk, it's not a very rewarding friendship.  And whatever else Gleb was, he was indeed interesting.


Wahoo....your posts are fascinating!!  ;D
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: lexi4 on May 04, 2005, 08:10:57 PM
Wahoo,
Do you have anything left that was written about the church? Did he talk much about his fahter? Please keep the stories coming.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 05, 2005, 11:47:06 AM
Wow.. you're not online for a day and the boards BOOM with posts!

Thanks for answering my questions and more Wahoo! This thread has certinally be an interesting read. I agree that Jack M. was quite the nut, I remeber seeing a show with him and Anna, and he seemed quite.. special.

I understand you were making a point with the comment:
Quote
Or killing a chicken after waving it over your head,  and tossing bread crumbs into the water, to get rid of your sins.

But if you could please refrain from talking about Animal Cruelty, it would be great. As the subject brings great anger to me. I am a huge animal rights activist.
Cheers  :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 05, 2005, 01:26:41 PM
Hello to all.  I'm glad you find my Posts "Not horrible."

Hi Laura:  I'm likewise very opposed to animal cruelty (though not enough to capitalize it, as you did).  But I don't consider killing a chicken to be that. I'm sorry if I offended you. But as the Romans said, "De gustibus non est disputandum."  I guess everybody's opposed to something. But I certainly didn't intend offense, and I admire your concern for animal rights. Abraham Lincoln said this about animals: "I have no respect for any man's religion, if it doesn't get better treatment for his dog."   My rabbi is a vegetarian, and I always tell him, "There's room for all God's creatures on this earth-- right beside the mashed potatoes on my plate."

My daughter's also a vegetarian. Just the thought of life without NY Strips and Porterhouse (notice I did capitalize those), makes me break out in a cold sweat.

I know this is off topic. So what? My wife won't be home for 2 hours, and I'm bored. So I might as well bore you too.  

If you're a vegetarian, consider this:  Folks like PETA would have us believe that our choices are as follows:

a) Kill and eat animals, or b) "Let animals be animals"- let them live out their lives in peace and happiness.

But I submit:  Those aren't the choices at all.  The choices are actually as follows:  a) Kill and eat animals, or b) Don't kill animals, in which case (there being no predators), they'll die instead of things like cancer, infection, pneumonia, heart conditions, etc. etc. The same diseases, more or less, that kill you and me. But (and here's what matters), unlike you and me, cows and chickens will have slow and painful deaths. Since they won't get medical treatment for their illnesses.  

Ergo, I submit that it's much more humane to kill and eat them. Heck, I know what I'd choose, if I were a chicken.

Unless we're prepared to start funding MRIs and CT scans and hospitals for cows and chickens, their ailments would go untreated.

I'm also very opposed to animal cruelty. That's why I eat animals.

Still friends?

:)

Lexi4:  Here's what I have left from the Church of Aphrodite:  Doodley Squat. Except that book "In Search of Reality" Gleb wrote, and I'm not even sure I have that.  Gleb hardly ever spoke of his father. I didn't get the feeling they were close.  His primary emotional attachment was to Nadine, whom he obviously cherished. She was a very frail thin woman. "Wispy" even.

Well, as to "stories"- I do have a couple more. My wife and I leave Saturday for 3 weeks, on a trip to the States. When I get back around the end of May, I'll see about posting more stories.

Till then, and in case I don't get back before Saturday,  Thanks to everyone for the kind welcome.  And if I never get back- enjoy the rest of your lives.

Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 05, 2005, 01:52:33 PM
Wahoo,
I definatly won't get into too deep of a animals rights protest right here, because I can go on for days on end. However, there are points in your post that are so incorrect in nature, I would just like to show you my side of the arguement.

First off, you say:
Quote
they'll die instead of things like cancer, infection, etc. etc.

Animals did not start to get cancer until we put them in scientific testing, where animals were injected with human disease. Did you know that most killer human diseases came from eating animals (an example would be Ebola). But since we are just going to touch upon the cruelty which is eating animals, I shall try and stick with that. I may not be as strong in my beliefs as some PETA members, however, I do believe my opinions in this matter are strong. If you really truly think eating animals is cruelty free, then indulge me and check out these sites:
FactoryFarming.com (http://www.factoryfarming.com/index.htm) and for a less serious look, on a serious topic check out The Meatrix (http://www.themeatrix.com/)
You know, if farms were as the might have been decades ago, I might eat meat. But I highly doubt it, as I think it is cruel in any way or form of slaughter. I'll stick to being Vegan overall.
I also encourage you to check out this (http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery/photos_poultry.htm) as it will show you that killing a chicken is indeed animal cruelty. Heck if you were a chicken, read this (http://factoryfarming.com/poultry.htm) and tell me that treatment like that is ideal.

Now that we have had a chance to argue both our points in the open, I ask that if you want to carry on the arguement, please PM/IM me.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 05, 2005, 02:17:51 PM
Laura-  


"Animals did not start to get cancer until we put them in scientific testing, where animals were injected with human disease."

Cows (and all other animals) have been dying natural deaths for millennia. So whether it's cancer or whatever other disease, something must kill them. All I'm saying is, that "something" (which can be quite painful and prolonged) is much more horrific than a quick death in the abattoir.  Animals not killed for meat, will die natural deaths.  And I just believe a 5-second death is much kinder than a 5-week/5-month death from some slow and painful disease. I do agree, however, that needless experimentation should be outlawed.  

I hate the idea of an animal suffering. That's why I eat them. I don't want to even think of some poor cow lying in the pasture, suffering needlessly for days and days.  Especially when she would have looked SO good on my plate.

"If you really truly think eating animals is cruelty free, then indulge me and check out these sites"

And if you really think a cow dying a natural death is cruelty free, go out to a farm and watch one die of bovine tuberculosis.  Or whatever other disease kills cows in the pasture.  Unless you're arguing that cows will never die, it follows that they'll die from some disease.  I'm simply saying that dying from that disease, will entail much more suffering for the cow, than dying in an abbatoir.  One's quick, one's drawn out. Quick deaths are better than drawn-out deaths.

I do agree we should do all we can, to make sure animals die quick and painless deaths in abbatoirs. There'll always be some suffering involved with eating meat, but not nearly as much as the animals would undergo if left to die of natural causes, of diseases largely undiagnosed and untreated.

I respect your vegetarianism. My daughter's a vegetarian.  But ask yourself: If we don't kill the chicken, what will it die of? 'Cause it sure won't live forever.  The chicken you don't eat tonight for dinner, what disease would you choose for it to die of? I guess I'd choose "dying in its sleep." But unfortunately, that won't happen.  And the chicken we don't eat today, will suffer tomorrow for our "kindness".

As to the grisly web sites you've posted- I could just as well post pictures of cows lying for days in the pasture-  in the final agonizing stages of natural death from bovine tuberculosis, or whatever other disease kills them. Pretty grisly sight.  Natural death for animals can be long and painful. Sensationalism isn't much of an argument.

Gotta scoot- steaks are thawed out, and ready for the grill.

Thanks for talking.  I hope you enjoy your Tofu burger tonight, as much as I will this prime Porterhouse.

Laura, would you at least just look at this Page I'm posting below? And think with your stomach, not your heart. Joinnnnnnnn us!



Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: lexi4 on May 05, 2005, 07:37:28 PM
Wahoo,
I will miss your posts. Hurry back.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Wahoo on May 06, 2005, 01:49:02 PM
Hi Lexi4- I'll also miss your posts.  I'm not a "people person" by any means. But the people here seem kinda nice. Heck, I even like Etonexile.

Tomorrow my wife leave on a 3-week trip "in the motor car" -- touring the States. Canadians do that you know- partly because you have some things there, that we can't get here. Like some over-the-counter medicines f'rinstance. (Of course we have some things here, that you can't get there- like free health care for instance.) You also have a much higher murder rate, but that's offset by the very cheap beer we can buy in the US ($7.99 for a case last time I was in NY).  Beer here in Canada is very expensive- the cheap junkie stuff is about $28 for a case- about 3X as much as in the States. (They probably use the difference to pay for our free health care.)  Being an alcoholic ain't cheap here in Canada. We call a case of beer a "two four" because it contains 24 beers.

I was kinda hoping Laura would fire back- and give me what for, just as I deserve.  I know my veggie daughter sure wouldn't take a tirade like mine yesterday, without firing back a few well-chosen salvos of her own. But  nope- I see Laura's taken the higher ground. She's opted to be gracious and remain silent.   I always feel so stupid when people do that. Like I've said something I shouldn't.  (My wife says I do that all the time.)  I'm glad this is just the Net, and not real life. 'Cause this way at least she can't picket my house with signs like "Meat is murder".  Or plaster my house with pictures of those cows and chickens like she did yesterday. (I think my Omaha steak picture was much prettier than her cows, don't you?) I don't think she'd do that, though. Because she does seem like a very nice person.  I mean,  she feels sorry for cows and chickens. Heck, she probably feels sorry for me too.   Might even be praying for me.  I've kept a list down through the years, of people who said they're "praying for me."  And right now the number stands at 471.  At least they said they would. I don't know if Laura's a religious person, but if she is, I guess now that number stands at 472.

Anyway, I ain't complaining. Tomorrow we're driving into Cowboy Country, and we can use all the prayers we can get.  

It's funny how different things upset different people.   Know what upsets the folks at our synagogue? The word "Lord."  Or referring to God as "He."  They're very big on "gender neutral" language when referring to the Deity.   So I guess one man's (or woman's) suffering  bovine is another man's "Lord."  You just never can tell, what will upset people.

To the folks at my synagogue: I'm sorry I said "The Lord is my shepherd" that time in our Yom Kippur service.  

To any Hindus reading this: I'm sorry for mentioning scrambled eggs in my Post about East Asia.

Sorry sorry sorry. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

I am not worthy.

See you Lexi4. See you everyone else.  :)



Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Annie on May 07, 2005, 03:41:06 PM
Quote
My answer:  Yes of course Gleb spoke of her often.  And she was often in his home when I'd go visit. She even attended a lecture Gleb gave once, at one of the historical societies at U. Va.  With her face wrapped tightly in a scarf, to avoid recognition. She was quite paranoid. But not nearly as paranoid as her (very new) husband Jack Manahan, who at a picnic with Gleb, refused to shake my hand because the "CIA" was out to poison him, and I might be an agent wearing a poison ring.  That was quite sad actually- to see how Jack's lunacy harmed that old woman. She finally was removed from their home, by the Albemarle welfare agency, and I believe placed in a home of some kind. But everyone who knew them, knew that Jack was batty as a bedbug.


Oh wow, sounds like they all would have fit in well with the conspiracy theorists on the survivor forum here!;) So I guess they'd be right proud of them if they could read it now. :D

Thanks for sharing!  :)

Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Michelle on May 07, 2005, 10:17:39 PM
Quote

Oh wow, sounds like they all would have fit in well with the conspiracy theorists on the survivor forum here!;) So I guess they'd be right proud of them if they could read it now. :D

Thanks for sharing!  :)



::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 16, 2005, 07:52:10 PM
Annie: I would not discuss here any survivors theories. I said I'll keep my opinions by me...But WHY on hearth are you so ironical? I never said anything to you before, for I'm very polite and don't like to be harsh with other members. But people can think exactly they wants to. If they like to believe in fayries, let them do it. If they are fanatics of this or that, let them do it.

As for Wahoo, thank you four your post: I do not agree with your religious personal beliefs (even if I'm a religious person myself, a Catholic) but your info about Gleb Botkin was very useful for me as an historian. I'm studying Anna Anderson case and I would know more things about Jack Manahan. It was a pretty crazy guy,if I believe your post and other books I read about the case!  ::) And why Gleb said that Anna was like a dog for Jack? I believed he was pretty sweet with her(in a crazy way, of course), and that it was her who was harsh to him...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: depshf on June 11, 2005, 08:52:06 PM
Mr. King, My wife had a neighbor,whos name was Peter Botkin. This man was the grandson of Gleb. She became good friends with Mr. Botkin,and he gave her several things before he died. One of the items were pen and ink drawings of bears in Russian Uniforms,dated and signed by Gleb Botkin,also he gave her a ring that is supposed to be one of anna's. Is this something that would be of interest to historians?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 13, 2005, 11:15:21 AM
This statement that the stories were composed by the Imperial Children is not correct. They were written by Gleb. The originals are all now in the U.S. Library of Congress.

The "Foreword" says nothing to the contrary.

Richard Schweitzer
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Janet_W. on June 14, 2005, 08:38:36 PM
When you have the time, Mr. Schweitzer, I'm sure many of us would like to know more about your wife's father and his father before him. Thank you in advance for anything you might want to volunteer!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 14, 2005, 09:49:46 PM
I just read in "Nicholas and Alexandra", by Robert K. Massie, that Gleb Botkin did these excellent drawing to enjoy himself as a child (I used to do the same when I was a little girl). He showed his drawings to the Imperial Children and they liked them very much. Anastasia uses to make up stories about these drawings, and amuse Gleb telling them to him. But the stories wasn't made to amuse the Imperial Children. By the way, you must recall the story about Alexei and Gleb drawings. The Tsarevitch had a serie of russian folklore tales, and wanted Gleb to illustrate them. He wrote a note telling Gleb to do so, and then, he sign it with his name...But thinking it better, he didn't want to send this note with his sign to Gleb, for the boy would take it as an order. Alexei wish that Gleb illustrates the Russian tales only if he wanted to, and not for it was an Imperial Order...

RealAnastasia.

P.S: I may recall that Gleb Botkin wrote some poetry as a child, and it show it to Olga Nicolaievna. She uses to write poetry too, and would criticize Gleb work to help him to improve it. It wouldn't mean that Gleb wrote poetry to "amuse" the Imperial Children.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 15, 2005, 12:33:01 PM
I have just tried to give more data on the Botkins, but the "preview" format wiped it out. Will try again in a different way.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: AGRBear on June 15, 2005, 01:53:35 PM
Quote
Mr. King, My wife had a neighbor,whos name was Peter Botkin. This man was the grandson of Gleb. She became good friends with Mr. Botkin,and he gave her several things before he died. One of the items were pen and ink drawings of bears in Russian Uniforms,dated and signed by Gleb Botkin,also he gave her a ring that is supposed to be one of anna's. Is this something that would be of interest to historians?


How very interesting.

Has anyone who knows about such things contacted you?

Greg King has not joined us on this forum for some time.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Arleen on June 15, 2005, 06:36:40 PM
All of this is so interesting to me!

Mr Schweitzer would you by any chance have pictures of the Botkin family you could post for us to enjoy?

Many thanks for coming to this site to talk with us.

..Arleen
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Arleen on June 15, 2005, 07:07:32 PM
WAHOO WHERE ARE YOU???  I think we need you......

..Arleen
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: bass on June 15, 2005, 07:42:47 PM
 :)i'm in MAINE.  I HAVE IN MY POSESSION SEVERAL GLEB BOTKIN DRAWINGS, SIGNED AND DATED. I WAS TOLD BY A PERSON AT THE U. OF MAINE , ONE OF THE DRAWINGS IS AN EXILE DRAWING. A QUESTION? DO THESE DRAWINGS HAVE JUST A HISTORICAL VALUE, OR ARE THEY WORTH ANYTHING MONEY WISE? THEY ARE IN BEAUTIFUL CONDITION. BILL
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 16, 2005, 03:29:47 PM
Quote
Mr. King, My wife had a neighbor,whos name was Peter Botkin. This man was the grandson of Gleb. She became good friends with Mr. Botkin,and he gave her several things before he died. One of the items were pen and ink drawings of bears in Russian Uniforms,dated and signed by Gleb Botkin,also he gave her a ring that is supposed to be one of anna's. Is this something that would be of interest to historians?


I would of course be interested in this, but think it might be best to first contact Mr. and Mrs. Schweitzer, Gleb Botkin's son in law and daughter. I'm sure anything of her father's would be very precious to Mrs. Schweitzer.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 20, 2005, 02:48:47 PM
I have tried to contact you privately to tell you what we can

RRS
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 21, 2005, 09:44:59 AM
For those who wanted to know, I did contact Depshf.
He scanned copies of the Pix to me and Marina did confirm that they were by Gleb. At least One appears a possible part of the tales written in Tobolsk. One other was part of a series about an anti-gravity machine (comic) done around 1926 or 27. The others are incomplete water colrs of a series similar to the Tobolsk series. We could not decypher the dates from the scanned images.

Peter was a son (not grandson) of Gleb and nadine. He probabaly took the materials and other things from his sister Kyra who lives in Augusta ME and will soon be 90!


RRS
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Janet_W. on June 21, 2005, 09:35:09 PM
I will add my thanks as well, Mr. Schweitzer! We are deeply honored to read your contributions and hope that you'll continue to post. And like Thomas A., I also am interested in any information that can be provided about Tatiana Botkin, or indeed any other members of the family. Such stories put to shame these so-called "reality" shows of "survival."
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 21, 2005, 11:13:29 PM
I really wish Brien Horan could give you more information on Tatiana. He was stationed in Paris for a time and got on well with her. I think she let him read her manuscripts (handwritten-French) while she prepared books.

I did not get to meet her until June 1972, 2 1/2 years after Gleb's death, when I took a trip over from some extended work in London and Dublin. We had found that Gleb was trying to help her with some meager funds from the amounts we were able to provide him. So we shifted our efforts to her, and, as it turned out, to her grandson Vladjimir (who took the name Melnick).

As an example of her quality, she got him in off the streets where he apparently was trying to establish a amrk as a "tough." He slept on the floor of her little room in the flat of one of her daughters - and she trained him. On one visit she said to me in his presence:
Out there they may think he is rough and tough, but here he is my little grandson (he was a good sized, tall fellow as I remember) and does what I say he should do."

Proving her point, she tutored and trained him in languages (including German and Russian I believe), and all the necessary subjects, and qualified him for the faculty in Medicine. He became a physician, which was her great wish.

My best recollection is that she had one son (Konstantin)and two daughters, possibly three - I will check with Marina. Konstantin was the principal guest in a French documentary about the IF Interments in P&P, we have a copy on loan to a friend.

I can't recall the date of her death, place of burial, etc., but will try to find out from a local person who has visited there. I think it is noted as the "Russian" cemetary in Paris.

It has appeared to Marina (and also to Brien Horan) that some of her published writings (books) must have been  extensively "edited."

That is about all I can add tonight

RRS
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 22, 2005, 12:57:55 PM
Many of theviewers may know this, but the current Librarian of Congress is James H. Billington, who is a renowned scholar of Russian history and culture. It was he who wanted the gift to the Library of Gleb's drawings, and for whom we worked out the terms of the Deed of Gift.

It was interesting to watch his reaction when realizing at a luncheon with Marina that the famous liberal and patron of literature and arts, Vassily P. Botkin (to whom the well-known "Letter to Botkin" was addressed) was the elder half-brother to Sergius P. Botkin ("The Father of Russian Medicine") and responsible for having him educated; and then to follow that Sergious P. was Gleb's grandfather, the father of Dr. Eugene S. Botkin.

Lesser know probably is the fact that Dr. Billington and Bob Massie (he lets me call him "Bob") were Rhodes Scholars together.

RRS
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: rgt9w on June 23, 2005, 08:32:51 PM
Mr. Schweitzer:

In addition to his drawings, was Gleb Botkin able to save any correspondence between himself and his father or the Imperial Children?

Thank you for continuing to post on this site. The information is greatly appreciated.

RGT9W
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 26, 2005, 10:31:34 PM
We have an associate who visited Tatiana Botkine's grave. I will try to get the exact site.

She wrote one of theearliest set of Memoirs of the exile in 1921 - in Russian and generally known to scholars as "The Belgrade Edition." She went to "Yugoslavia" after her escape.

Her Bell card at the flat in Paris read "Mme. Tatiana Botkine," although she lived with her daughter, whose married name I do not recall now.

Her two French books were: "In the Time of the Tsars," and "Anastasia Remembered." She wrote them both by hand. The latter was heavily edited, I have been told.

RRS
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on June 26, 2005, 11:07:29 PM
A few months ago I completed reading Tatyana Mel'nik-Botkin's memoirs in the original Russian language.

My copy was copied from the Belgrad edition of 1921:

Vospominaniya O Tsarskoi Cem'e published by Zaharov, Moscow in 2004.

This copy also contains two additional items - Evgeni Sergeevich Botkin's letters penned just prior to his death.

The first brief letter was addressed to the Ekaterinburg Committee in his capacity as a physician; while the second letter was addressed to his brother Sasha dated 9 July, 1918.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on June 27, 2005, 02:22:50 AM
Quote
Lesser know probably is the fact that Dr. Billington and Bob Massie (he lets me call him "Bob") were Rhodes Scholars together.

RRS


Thank you for this illuminating piece of information. :)

Belochka
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 29, 2005, 09:14:43 PM
First post, prompted by Wahoo's. I'm one too, a Wahoo I mean, and was at UVa from '71 -74, so I came as he left. He is absolutely on the money in his descriptions of Jack and Anna Manahan. I didn't meet Gleb, but everone in Charlottesville knew the Manahans by sight. I was besotted with her, sure that she was the real deal, and at a concert on the Lawn I approached her and stared at her (I was 18 and rude). She had a scarf entwined around the lower part of her face and a hat jammed down over her hair, which was an improbably ginger shade. She looked up at me and said, "Go away" with such force that I . . .did.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Arleen on July 04, 2005, 04:32:59 PM
What an enchanting story Louis!  Thank you for sharing it with us, I had a good LOL...... I can just picture her saying that!

You WAHOOS sound like really fun people!  Maybe more will join?

..Arleen
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Arleen on July 04, 2005, 04:52:04 PM
Belochka, Is there any possible way that you could post Dr. Botkin's letter to his brother Sasha written July 9, 1918?  Even if not in English I am sure someone here could translate for us.  I would so very much love to read this letter.  

Do you know if there is an English translation of Tatyana Botkins books, especially the one written in 1921.  I can't tell you how much it would mean to me to be able to read that book.  I have been longing for Botkin family information for some time now.

At any rate thanks for your post about the books!

..Arleen
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 05, 2005, 08:07:12 PM
I'm able to translate French. So, if you wants to post something in French, I'm ready to translate it...The only problem is that my English is not perfect... :-/

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on July 17, 2005, 01:57:18 AM
Quote
Belochka, Is there any possible way that you could post Dr. Botkin's letter to his brother Sasha written July 9, 1918?  ..Arleen


If I scanned the letter without permission, which extends to eight pages, I would be breaching Russian CR laws. My apologies.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on July 29, 2005, 10:45:13 PM
The cemetary listed is correct. The year of death was 1986, just two years after our last visit with her (confirmed by her son).

Incidentally, in that French TV presentation, there was an American who recounted how he was caught by the fire of these two older women (Tatiana & Domenique) whenever he tried to cast doubts on their assumptions, etc -- his name was Robert K. Massie.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: AlexP on July 31, 2005, 09:00:13 AM
Quote
Tatiana is buried at the cemetery at Sainte-Genevieve-des-Bois in Paris. I don't have her death date.


Just a footnote to help our readers.

The Russian cemetery at Sainte-Genevieve-des-Bois is a Russian Orthodox cemetery that is the final resting place of many of the great families of Russia who fled Russia after 1917 and who established themselves abroad.  For Mrs. Botkine to have been buried there in 1986 is indeed a high honor because by that time, the cemetery had been officially closed to any new enterments (the family had probably purchased the grave years ago).  There is a lovely Russian church on the grounds of the cemetery (actually there are two -- one that belongs to the Paris jurisdiction, and one that belongs to the Moscow jurisdiction.  Even in death, the events of 1917 still divide).

Two of the first persons to be buried in this cemetery after the Revolution were the Countess von Kleinmichel (who is infrequently discussed on these pages, and whose memoires -- Souvenirs d'un Monde Englouti -- should be read by anyone wanting a flavor of old  Russia -- and Prince Lvov, who headed one of the very short-lived Interim Governments after the fall of the Ancien Regime).

Indeed, Mrs. Botkine lies there in peace, remembered by many of us.  And personally, science or not, I believe her belief in Anna Anderson was well-merited.

What shocks me though, beyond belief, on a different note, is the Russian Church under Paris on the grounds, in the midst of this wonderfully historical cemetery wherein lie the great timeless names of Old Russia, actually serves many of its services in French.

This may be off-topic but here is the link to the church:

http://www.exarchat.org/article.php3?id_article=187
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 31, 2005, 08:14:17 PM
Thank you for the link AlexP. And I share your opinions about Anna Anderson.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 03:54:07 PM
Quote
Thank you for the link AlexP. And I share your opinions about Anna Anderson.

RealAnastasia.


I can only say and write the kindest and noblest things about the Botkine family.

In having the courage to speak the truth, they earned the emnity of the surviving Romanovs, whom I believed, preferred money over the truth.

They acted out of honesty, not out of financial gain.

They acted out of humanity, not out of self-preservation.

Today DNA science is a science in its enfancy.  And yet it has been regarded as the modern panacea, the cure-all for all.  As we progress down its path, we will surely refine it and learn how we made serious errors.

When x-rays were discovered, they were believed to be the cure-all.  Everything and everyone was x-rayed...to death...literally.  It was believed to cure all diseases and only later did people realize its serious limitations.

But there is the still the human eye, and looking at Anna Anderson, and looking at Xenia Alexandrovna, and looking at Olga Alexandrovna, one has to be blind not to see the very obvious resemblances.  But money speaks louder than the truth.  It always has and it always will.

May almighty God, through the prayers of the Blessed Mother, in the Sight of All of the Saints of the Russian Land, grant His Eternal Peace to the Soul of His Servant, Tatiana Botkin.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 11:25:17 AM
As far as I understan nobody got the pot!
The Romanov's money could be received only by one of the Family.
Anna was not considered as the real one .
So money is in the bank?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Cassville on August 17, 2005, 11:01:00 PM
Hello.  My mother grew up in Jackson, NJ down P... Ave. where Gleb lived.  She was 11 and remembers her talks with Gleb.  He and his wife were very socialable.  They lived deep in the woods, but now there is a road that goes to it.  He use to walk through the woods to go to the store called Burke's General Store and talked about the days ahead and the days behind around a  pot belly stove.  Gleb did most of the talking because he was the most interesting.  When they built the road up to the house, my mom remembers several limousines with Dukes and Dutcheses that would come and visit Gleb and his wife.  She also remembers a statue of a naked lady in the middle of their living room.  They had a fence around their house made of compressed leaves.....that's right, you heard me...leaves.  A great couple they were.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Lucien on August 18, 2005, 03:04:17 AM
Thank you Cassville and Louis Charles for your posts,they leave me grinning.

Just a thought,didn't Wahoo say their trip was 3 weeks?That was 3 months ago!
Wahoo,what happened?Please check in so we know all's well.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 23, 2005, 12:53:27 PM
Its been interesting to read more about Gleb Botkin!

I am very interested in the IF's retinue, it says a lot for the characters of the IF that they appeared to inspire such loyalty and respect in those that served them (Gilliard, Gibbs, Dehn etc etc)

Gleb Botkinis one character that i really can't take too.
To use Grand Duke Alexanders words "the Vileness" of the man.

The way he plagued the grand duchesses Olga and Xenia was disgraceful, not to mention the lies he told.  

Interesting way to behave especially for someone so interested in Church affairs.

Just my little thoughts  :)

Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Linnea on September 25, 2005, 11:28:27 AM
Quote

The way he plagued the grand duchesses Olga and Xenia was disgraceful, not to mention the lies he told.  

Interesting way to behave especially for someone so interested in Church affairs.

Just my little thoughts  :)

Thank you  :)

Could you please write more about this, Eddieboy_uk?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 25, 2005, 03:17:00 PM
Hi Linnea. I would but i don't have my books to hand. I particulalry remember reading the rude letter he sent to Xenia after the Dowager Empress died saying she was attempting to defraud her neice (i.e. the fraud Anna Anderson)
It's in Xenia, Once a Grand Duchess by Coryne Hall. I would type the letter but don't have the book with me like i say!

:)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Sarushka on October 28, 2005, 07:03:53 PM
I've just ordered the Russian edition of Botkina-Melnik's book. Does anyone know -- is Tatiana Botkina considered a reliable source? She seems to be the only source for the story of Aleksei riding his sled down the stairs in Tobolsk, but Nicholas & Alexandra's diaries say nothing about a sled...
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on October 29, 2005, 12:03:03 AM
Quote
Does anyone know -- is Tatiana Botkina considered a reliable source? She seems to be the only source for the story of Aleksei riding his sled down the stairs in Tobolsk, but Nicholas & Alexandra's diaries say nothing about a sled...


I believe that she can be relied upon. It is a very poignant book, written with honesty and integrity.

I hope that you SarahElizabethII, will appreciate the contents of her memoir as much as I did.  :)  
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Sarushka on November 02, 2005, 11:27:19 AM
I just received my copy of Vospominaniya O Tsarskoi Cem'e from Kniga.com, and while I can't yet say anything about the contents, I've just got to tell you that it's the most darling little edition! It's just 5x7 inches, its endpapers are reproductions of postcards from the IF, and it's got a nice little section of photos in the middle. Must be the best $7.95 I ever spent.  :)
signed,
Sarushka the book-nerd.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Janet_W. on November 02, 2005, 06:40:58 PM
Sarushka, we look forward to any information you can share with those of us not proficient in the Russian language regarding the contents of this book!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: cimbrio on December 25, 2005, 05:27:14 AM
I've always wondered if the Botkins were related to Nina Botkina, wife of a descendant (grandson I think, but I'm not sure; I'm sorry but I don't have the name in front) of Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich (younger brother of Alexander III).


???
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Scott on March 01, 2006, 06:13:53 PM
Does anyone have additional information on the possibility of Gleb having children that lived in Alabama?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Scott on March 01, 2006, 06:39:40 PM
As a follow up, I located the following obituary for one of Gleb's children, Nikita Botkin:


 "Nikita Botkin, 75, of Randolph, Maine, died Oct. 15 [,2001] at the Maine General
Rehabilitation and Nursing Care at Gray Birch in Augusta, Maine.
 Mr. Botkin was born Jan. 8, 1926 in Antibes, France, the son of Gleb and
Nadine Konshin Botkin. He was the grandson of the personal physician to the
family of Russian Tsar Nicholas II. The Bolsheviks killed his grandfather in
1918, along with members of the Tsar's Family. Nikita's father escaped across
Siberia and was rescued by the Japanese. Nikita Botkin's family settled on Long
Island, N.Y., where he attended school through high school.
 Mr. Botkin served in the Navy during World War II. After the war, he worked in
advertising for McGraw-Hill in New York City and in local government for
Montgomery County until his retirement in 1977. In Montgomery County, he was the
head of the county's Division of Printing and Mail Services.
 Mr. Botkin moved to Randolph, Maine in 1989 where he was active in community
affairs. He served as a Randolph selectman from 1992 until 1996. He was safety
officer of the Randolph Fire Department. He was a member of the Gardiner
Ambulance Committee. He served on the Gardiner Area Wastewater Committee, the
Randolph Budget Committee and the Randolph Planning Board.
 Mr. Botkin is survived by his wife of 23 years, Ruth Botkin of Randolph; four
children, Clinton Botkin of Damascus, Kris Cox of Williamsburg, Va., Sandra
Holcomb of Damascus and Theresa Kendall of Gaithersburg; three step children
John Norris of Mount Airy, Jeanne Norris of Germantown, Jim Norris of Boyds;
five grandchildren; 4 step grandchildren; 2 great grandsons; and two sisters,
Kyra Botkin of Augusta, Maine and Marina Schweitzer of Great Falls, Va.
 A memorial service was held Saturday in Maine. Donations may be made to the
American Heart Association, Hospice Volunteers of Kennebec Valley or to the
Randolph Fire Department."
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on October 20, 2006, 04:04:37 PM
I've always wondered if the Botkins were related to Nina Botkina, wife of a descendant (grandson I think, but I'm not sure; I'm sorry but I don't have the name in front) of Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich (younger brother of Alexander III).

It is my understanding that all of the Russian Botkins were descended from British tea merchant Conan Botkin who came to Russia in the late 18th Century.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: amelia on October 20, 2006, 09:38:45 PM
I have read her two books, and I loved them. They were written from her heart. There is only something that I would like to say, which is in "Aux temps des tsars" I concluded that the Botkins only saw the imperial children in very few occasions, and in ""Anastasia retrouvee, Tatiana Botkina seems to give the impression that she knew Anastasia very well. Could someone comment on this, please?

Amelia
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 21, 2006, 12:17:36 AM
Hey, Amelia!:

                     I only can say that the Botkins did believe in Anna Anderson and thought she really was genuine. I think the same, by the way... ;) . But even if they knew the Imperial Children more than well, they wouldn't see them every day. I think that they knew each other but without being really intimate. Of course, I can recognize people without them being my intimate friends (even by photography). But if truth must be said, the Botkins didn't see the Romanov's children every day.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on October 21, 2006, 01:09:53 AM
I've always wondered if the Botkins were related to Nina Botkina, wife of a descendant (grandson I think, but I'm not sure; I'm sorry but I don't have the name in front) of Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich (younger brother of Alexander III).

It is my understanding that all of the Russian Botkins were descended from British tea merchant Conan Botkin who came to Russia in the late 18th Century.

Sergei Petrovich Botkin, the physician to Alexander III, was born in Moscow in 1832. His father was a first guild Moscow merchant, Peter Konovich, (Conan in English), born in 1781, was indeed an honorary citizen of Russia.

Regards,

Margarita
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on October 21, 2006, 01:37:03 AM
I have read her two books, and I loved them. They were written from her heart. There is only something that I would like to say, which is in "Aux temps des tsars" I concluded that the Botkins only saw the imperial children in very few occasions, and in ""Anastasia retrouvee, Tatiana Botkina seems to give the impression that she knew Anastasia very well. Could someone comment on this, please?

Amelia

The Botkin family lived in Tsarskoe Selo on Ulitsa Sadovaya from 1908. Tatiana would certainly have seen the Grand Duchess from a distance whilst they were conveyed in carriages. She first met Anastasia and Mariya in 1911 in the Crimea. However my understanding is that close contacts were very few.

Margarita
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on December 10, 2007, 03:40:07 PM
Hello,
I'm one of the Tatiana's great-grandson. So i'm proud to discover this topic.
Thanks for that.
If there's other Botkin or Friends of Botkin's familly i will be glad to talk with them ...
Nicolas
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: amelia on December 10, 2007, 04:47:13 PM
I have your great-grandmother two books, and I loved reading them. Where are you located?

Amelia
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on December 10, 2007, 06:19:32 PM
Hello Amelia,

it's a pleasure to meet people who had read Tatiana's books ... Thank you for your message.
I know that was important for her to be able the Witness of parts important of History

I'm from Toulouse (That explain my probably bad English !!)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: amelia on December 10, 2007, 08:43:07 PM
I really loved her books, specially Aux temps des tsars, she explains so well the way it was and the contacts she had with the Imperial Family, specially in Livadia. I have read this book several times. It is not an easy book to find and I wish it would be translated in to English. Maybe one day...You must be proud to be her great-grandson, she was a very strong and fine lady.

Amelia
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 11, 2007, 04:48:57 AM
I agree! I was the one who started this thread ages ago :) I wanted to learn more about Tatiana after reading her memoirs. It seemed to me that she was one of the last surviving persons who had close contact to the Tsar's family when she died.
I love her book - tho' I cannot understand why she thought Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia.
Does your family still keep things belonging to Tatiana? And did you know her?

Greets, Thomas
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on December 11, 2007, 07:16:48 AM
Thanks Amelia
Thanks Thomas for this message and this thread.
I known Tatiana till 13 years old (that's truth she died in 1986 ... in April if I remember correctly) ... I have a lot of childhood memories with her and when she told me about her life in Russia.
She kept a lot of objects who are now among her grandchild.

About Anna Anderson I could talk about it with my father and my grandmother ...
For them there's no doubt Tatiana was believed . she spent her life defending the memory of Imperial Family and I am sure it was her only motivation.
Now we know Anastasia was not genuine and it's even more mysterious

For myself the most interresting is "Au temps des Tsars" because that was a great Testimony about life in Russia during Bolchevik Revolution
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 16, 2007, 08:35:17 AM
In my book I have seen a photo of Empress Alexandra dressed as a nurse. It was dedicated to Dr Botkin and it had an inscription in German on the back.
Wonder why Alexandra wrote him in German....do you know that photo I mean?

Do you have any photos of Tatiana you could share with us here? Would be marvellous to see her in old age. She was such an admirable personality...
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on December 28, 2007, 06:41:15 PM
Hello Thomas,
Sorry for my late, my father send me pictures & documents that will posted in the appropriate topics.
In Following, it's a photo of Tatiana with my sister Anne in 1981.

(http://a.imagehost.org/0107/TatianaBotkine.jpg)

About the picture in her book i think know wich one it's ... I think Empress should speak Russian language for protocol, but in private she could probably speak with friends in her mother tongue.

Are you from Hesse's family ?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on December 28, 2007, 07:00:14 PM
My english isn't so good for understand all posts of this topic but it's seem some people are interested about Gleb's drawings.

this one had been kept by my great grandmother Tatiana, and it was remained in my family

(http://a.imagehost.org/0107/DessinGleg2.jpg)

Gleb had did this drawing for fun Imperial Childs
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 01, 2008, 09:43:27 AM
Gorgeous! Thank you VERY very much for sharing these private photos with all of us! Cannot tell you how much I appreciate it! Thank God that she became so old!
I think she was a really beautiful woman in her youth and admire her courage to help the Tsar's family. She was indeed her father's daughter! I admire Dr Botkin for all he did for the Romanows!

As regards the photo of Tsarina Alexandra: she was German, but spoke and wrote exclusively English when private. So it seemd quite strange to me seeing a photo with a German inscription for Dr Botkin (tho' I know that he was fluent in German).
Thanks again! And: Happy New year to you and your family!

P.s. I am not of the Hesse family :) unfortunately :)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Nicolas on January 01, 2008, 05:18:57 PM
Thank God that she became so old!
yes and her Children also ...

i'm sorry to can't help you so much. i try to watch if there's comments in the book but i imagine you did it first.
If i learn something i tell you.

Thanks & happy new year also !!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 02, 2008, 06:08:27 PM
Nicolas, it is very kind of you to share this with us. However, there may be others who will use the drawing without your permission. You might want to look into protecting your ownership rights against unauthorized use.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on January 23, 2008, 10:39:33 PM
Perhaps I can contribute something here.

According to Marina, Gleb said the Empress said, "With the Botkins one always speaks German."

However, Nicholas took Dr. Botkin with him on his state visit to England in part for his fluency in English.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: dmitri on January 23, 2008, 10:46:39 PM
One truly has to admire Dr. Botkin. He was a man of great ability and collosal duty right to the very end. He will surely have been rewarded for his good work. He was truly a good samaritan.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Belochka on January 24, 2008, 05:09:51 AM
According to Marina, Gleb said the Empress said, "With the Botkins one always speaks German."

I am very surprised to read learn this and fail to understand why that pronouncement was made. Which "Empress" allegedly declared that?

Between Sergei and his son Evgenii, both Botkins served three Russian Emperors as Court physicians.

Margarita
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on February 19, 2008, 03:23:12 PM
Does someone have a photo of Tatiana Botkina Melnik, when she was a teen?

And,I have also read either she sent a cap she knitted to Tatiana Nikolaievna Romanov or that Tatiana Nikolaievna made one and sent it to Tatiana Botkina Melnik? True or not?


Tatianochka.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 03:44:43 PM
when did gleb and tatiana botkin find out about their father? did they have a mother to look after them? how old were they?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: nena on July 23, 2008, 03:58:02 PM
Only I can say they were young....Dr. Botkin with Tatiana and Geb:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/th_Botkinlast.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/Botkinlast.jpg)
Anyone else have answers? I would love to hear them.......
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 04:11:39 PM
thanks for the pic. yes anymore help apperciated
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 04:15:19 PM
Only I can say they were young....Dr. Botkin with Tatiana and Geb:

That's the first time I've seen a pic of Tatiana Botkin. She sort of reminds me of the way Garbo looked in "Ninotchka"!
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: amelia on July 23, 2008, 06:07:27 PM
According to Tatiana's book - Aux Temps des Tsars - they were alone. Their mother had divorced her father years before, when they were young children. She left her husband to marry the children's tutor. They stayed for a while in Siberia, then Tatiana married Melnik (her father had asked her to do so), and then they went to Paris. Eventually Gleb came to USA.

Amelia
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 05:22:41 AM
its such a shame what they had to go through! :(
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Rodney_G. on November 25, 2008, 06:50:57 PM
 Tatiana Botkin ,and Gleb for that matter, looks amazingly like her father.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Michael HR on November 26, 2008, 03:39:28 AM
Such a shame they tagged onto Anna Anderson and the way the treated the Imperial Family post the revolution. To say they are now disliked might be an understatement.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 09, 2009, 12:59:13 PM
I´m affraid they were just not willing to admit their world, the world as they had known, vanished, and they focused on Anna Anderson as to a connection with the past...

Gleb Botkin
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/botkin.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Sarushka on May 09, 2009, 01:14:15 PM
I´m affraid they were just not willing to admit their world, the world as they had known, vanished, and they focused on Anna Anderson as to a connection with the past...

Believing Anastasia survived may also have allowed them to believe their father's death was not in vain.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on May 10, 2009, 03:01:41 AM
the way the treated the Imperial Family post the revolution. To say they are now disliked might be an understatement.

what do you mean?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Lemur on May 11, 2009, 10:28:24 PM
Such a shame they tagged onto Anna Anderson and the way the treated the Imperial Family post the revolution. To say they are now disliked might be an understatement.

I agree with you Michael. There is no excuse at all for the way he treated the family while trying to secure money for Anna Andersen. Here is the letter he wrote to the sisters of the Tsar.

"Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece..You obviously knew that her late Majesty would not have permitted the issuance by you of such a statement and only waited for her Majesty's death to make it public...I refuse to believe you are not actually convinced Mrs. Tchiakovsky is not the Grand Duchess Anastasia..You are convinced of her real identity, it is evident in the fact that in the course of your whole fight against her you have never made a truthful statement or mentioned a single fact, but resort to the vilest slander and most preposterous lies...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives."
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 12, 2009, 02:53:43 AM
Imagine what a letter like that must have done to Olga Alexandrovna, who knew AA wasn not Anastasia and was truthful. It´s also "funny" from Gleb tomention the murder of the Emperor, his family and dr. Botkin, but he obviously didn´t care about Demidova, Kharitonov or Trupp for that matter....

I think he genuinelly believed in AA, unfortunatelly refused to see the evidence against her. I alwaysthought he and his sister knew Anastasia really well, but as it turns out, they were never playmates, only met several times, and they didn´t meet the Grand Duchesses in captivity - they were not allowed inot the governor´s house at all....
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 17, 2009, 03:30:17 AM
How could Gleb Botkin have believed Anna Anderson?  Weren't he and his sister the main ones coaching her in her story?  If not, where did AA get her information before so many details were in print?  This makes his offense, in authoring this letter and other actions against the surviving family, even worse--he knew he was lying and wrote outrages against bereaved people.  Gleb, in particular, came up with the story of the animal paintings which was said to be the most positive identification of Anna Anderson as Anastasia in her lifetime.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Olgasha on May 25, 2009, 06:54:40 AM
Botkin Family
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/389/botkinfamilyb1.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 25, 2009, 07:04:59 AM
What a great picture!

Does anybody know the name of Mrs. Botkin? I know the first born child was Evgeny, but died in infancy, and presuming two youngest in the picture are Gleb and Tatiana, who are the other two?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Olgasha on May 25, 2009, 07:09:50 AM
Maybe their cousins...
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: nena on May 25, 2009, 03:05:12 PM
Tatiana  Melnik Botkina cried when saw Nicholas' blue eyes. Tatiana (Nicholaievna) made for her blue cap, after recovering of typhus, as it is said in her memories.

Here is bigger, but lower quality:

(http://www.pstbi.ru/foto_1/ob9-14b.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Olgasha on May 27, 2009, 03:51:29 AM
Dr Botkin
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9775/botkin.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Sarushka on May 27, 2009, 07:10:13 AM
Maybe their cousins...

They're all Botkin's children. Unfortunately I can't remember their names at the moment. I'll have a look in Tatiana's memoirs.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Sarushka on May 27, 2009, 07:50:23 AM
Botkin's elder sons were named Dmitri and Yuri. Both were killed in action during WWI.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: nena on May 27, 2009, 01:46:13 PM
In Botkin's last letter, to 'Sasha', he mentioned, he had vision of his son, I think Yuri, killed in 1914,  written close to last day.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Olgasha on December 22, 2010, 02:35:31 PM
Tatiana Botkina
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7152/69079.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 02, 2014, 03:19:30 PM
If the picture has been posted before, the link is broken now...

Here is a picture of Tatiana - she was really beautiful. Her wide-set-apart eyes actually remind me of Grand Duchess Tatiana somehow...

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/2b0f7e98b2d7cc3f9e74fbc6dd1dbeee/tumblr_ne1vpe6R3B1rh07xwo1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Rodney_G. on December 02, 2014, 10:45:54 PM
Tatiana B. is so unmistakably Dr. Yevgeny's daughter. Beautiful indeed. Her book, her memoirs, are worth reading. They're in both Russian and French versions. There are some great anecdotes therein.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 03, 2014, 05:33:20 AM
No English version then? Pity.... My Russian still needs a lot of improvement.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 11, 2015, 04:05:08 AM
Turns out the picture of Tatiana I have posted is cropped. This is a full photo

(http://www.nashaepoha.ru/_Images/Editor/botkin_16.JPG)

The young man is identified as Tatiana´s brother Yuriy. Source: http://www.nashaepoha.ru/?page=articles&lang=1&id=6026
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 11, 2015, 04:08:01 AM
Better quality of a known Gleb Botkin photo

(http://www.nashaepoha.ru/_Images/Editor/botkin_25.JPG)

And later in life

(http://www.nashaepoha.ru/_Images/Editor/botkin_34.JPG)
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 16, 2015, 06:05:07 PM
Didn't Gleb have a daughter  Marina    what happened too her?
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 13, 2016, 02:52:35 AM
Marina married an attorney Richard Schweitzer. They both championed Anna Anderson´s case after Gleb passed away and were much confused and unhappy when DNA testing proved she was not Anastasia. They were bent on finding a "mistake" in the testing, and Marina stated her belief that somebody wanted something "covered up" and that it is linked to Queen Elizabeth II.....

According to Wikipedia Marina helped to identify the remains of Dr. Botkin when they were found: His daughter Marina Botkina Schweitzer's DNA was later used to help identify the remains of her grandfather, Yevgeny Botkin, after they were exhumed along with other Romanovs in 1991 from a mass grave discovered in Ganina Yama near Yekaterinburg. Schweitzer's DNA was compared against the DNA of her maternal half-sister Kira, who also gave a blood sample, to help scientists isolate the DNA Schweitzer shared in common with her grandfather. This enabled scientists to create a "Botkin DNA profile" and use it to positively identify Dr. Botkin. Scientists in the early 1990s were unable to identify Dr. Botkin using mitochondrial DNA, or DNA that is passed down from mother to child, as they used it to identify the Romanovs. Schweitzer was descended from Dr. Botkin in the paternal line and didn't share mitochondrial DNA with her father and grandfather.
Title: Re: Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr Botkin
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 13, 2016, 02:54:07 AM
The Botkin family

(https://pp.vk.me/c630331/v630331411/4be3/9BF6flsVOGk.jpg)