Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Almedingen on April 13, 2004, 11:49:28 AM

Title: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Almedingen on April 13, 2004, 11:49:28 AM
Does anyone have any interesting information on Grand Duke Vladimir's family?  Does anyone know if they left any diaries, personal photo albums, letters, etc. behind?

Does anyone know if Grand Duke Boris' house at Tsarkoye Selo is still standing?  What type of house is it?  What is the layout?  Are there any photos of it?

Also, what happened to Boris, Andrei and Helen after the revolution?

With regard to Kyrill, does anyone know what he did that was so horrible that his wife, Ducky, couldn't forgive him?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Louise on April 13, 2004, 12:11:04 PM
Where are the Vladimirs buried, and are there any plans to bring the bodies back to Russia for burial?

What was the reaction of Boris, Andrei, and Helen to Kiril's self-appointment to Tsar in waiting?

Louise
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: BobAtchison on April 13, 2004, 02:01:10 PM
Boris's house is still there.  Here it is from the 1998 book, "Tsarskoe Selo, Residence of the Russian Monarch" by C. R. Lastochkin and Yu. F. Ryubeshanskii.  The house is at Moskovskoye #11.  The top picture is building number 1 and the bottom is number 2.  It was designed by an architect associated with the St. Petersburg branch of the English firm of Maples, Sherborn in 1895.  Nicholas and Alexandra were impressed by his work on Boris's palace interiors and this lead to his redecoration of the English Suite of the AP.

Bob

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Arleen on April 13, 2004, 02:30:28 PM
PS....maybe someone far more knowledgeable than I am could tell us MORE about Andrei and Mathilde Kschessinska, they married after their escape.  She really must hve been a character to "inspire" so many Romanov men from Nicky to Boris and Andrei and no one seems to know who the father of her son is....or do they???  What ever happened to the son???  I could go on and on asking questions!!
..Arleen
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Namarolf on April 13, 2004, 04:15:52 PM
The son, Vladimir (nicknamed "Vova"), born in 1901, died single and childless in 1974. In exile, he was granted the title of Prince Krasinski by Grand Duke Cyril, who was supposed to be his uncle. It was uncertain if Vladimir's father was Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich (murdered in Alapaevsk in 1918, along with his equerry, Grand Duchess Elizabeth and other relatives, and a nun) or Grand Duke Andrei. Mathilde seemed to believe Andrei was the father -but may be it was just easier that way for both her and the child after she married him. Anyway it was highly remarkable how Sergei tried to look after Mathilde's properties during the Revolution, and even stayed in Petrograd to do so, risking his life -and eventually being shot.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jackie3 on April 13, 2004, 05:45:43 PM
Quote
Thanks for the photos of the house belonging to Boris!  I would also like to learn more about his life, both before and after the Revolution.


I've always wondered why Boris offered to marry GD Olga N. There was quite an age difference, he had the reputation as a playboy and she was sheltered in her upringing, I doubt he was in love with her since I also doubt he spent much time with her. Did he think N&A would look favorably on his cause? Was he talked into it by his mother? Or was he hedging his bets in case Alexis (like his great-uncle Leopold) managed to marry and have children despite his hemophilia thus ruining the (at the time likely because of the Mrs.Wulfret situation) chance of the Vladmirovitchi gaining the throne?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 13, 2004, 10:05:51 PM
Was Boris proposing to marry Olga or was his mother pushing the idea?  My impression is that Boris wasn't interested in marrying anyone. He simply was having way too good a time living the dissapated life.  I understand that in his later years he had the bloated and haggard looks to show for it, too . . .  (Meow!)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 14, 2004, 12:33:15 AM


It's likely that there are unpublished photos and diaries of the Vladimirovichi in the various Russian archives.

Boris married his mistress, a ballerina, in 1919. They lived in exile in France until his death in 1943. Andrei also married his famed ballerina mistress, also the mistress of Nicholas II and their cousin Serge. They lived with their son Vova until Andrei's death in 1956. Helen had already left Russia for her marriage to Prince Nicholas of Greece in 1902. Of all the offspring, she had the least to adjust to as she and her husband lived rather modestly in Europe. mostly France, for the rest of their lives. She died in 1957. Her grandchildren include Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia, and the current Duke of Kent.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2004, 10:46:40 PM
After reading Camera and the Tsars about Helen of Greece's aborted engagement , I started digging around (I love reading about unsuccessful royal engagements/marriages for some strange reason.  ;) ).
Anyway, here's what KR had to say:

24 May 1900
Iheard from Minnie about Maria Pavlovna's efforts to marry off her daughter Elena. After the failure with Max [of Baden], they are desperate to find another husband. Their choice fell on Albert of Belgium, but he did not seem particularly keen. M.P. then wrote to the Emperor, asking him to invite the King of Belgium to Peterhof for the summer, while Elena wrote to the young Empres, declaring her whole future depended on this invitation. At this point Albert of Belgium announced his engagement to a Bavarian princess, and Michen telegraphed the Emperor that there was no longer any need to invite the King.

19 June 1902
Mitia went to Krasnoe for the Ismailovsky celebrations and returned with the unexpected and joyful news of the engagement of Nicky of Greece to Elena Vladimirovna. Two years ago, when Elena caught Nicky's eye, her mother Maria Pavlovna made sure he was told not to count on Elena because, as the third son of a king, he was not a suitable match for her. Now Maria Pavlovna has had to change her mind, as her search for other suitors for her daughter has been in vain.

I wonder why this should be? It seems to me that a Romanov Grand Duchess, attractive and VERY wealthy, 1st cousin to the Tsar would make a very "marketable" candidate on the royal marriage mart.  Also, since they were considering Max of Baden and Albert I of Belgium, it couldn't be a religious consideration narrowing down eligible princes. Why was she so hard to match up?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Joanna on June 18, 2004, 10:59:46 PM
Hi grandduchessella !

I remember reading in "Alice" the book of Princess Alice mother of Mountbatten that it was very hard the first years when she arrived in Greece as Princess Elena considered her as not royal as she was a daughter of a Battenberg. There was of Elena an hauteur as she was a Grand Duchess. I beleive it was King George I of the Hellenes who talked with Alice to ignore the innuendos.

Prince Nicholas of Greece wrote a book. Has anyone read it? I wonder what he writes of his wife and of the Vladimirs.

Joanna
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 19, 2004, 01:33:56 AM
I read that too in Vickers' book on Alice. I was just reading someone else's memoirs (I can't remember who, I was thumbing through a bunch recently) who recalls how intimidating but not unkind she could be, but very much the Russian Grand Duchess. Despite all this, her marriage was apparently a happy one. I read Nicholas of Greece's memoirs over 10 yrs ago, but I was looking primarily for N&A info (I was much more limited in my royal scope back then) and don't remember anything of what he said of his marriage or wife.  >:(  Now that book goes online for about $100! I did the same thing with Christopher of Greece and Marie of Battenberg memoirs. I wish I'd been more inquisitive back then but was just a teen.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Lanie on June 19, 2004, 01:52:22 AM
A friend of mine has Nicholas' memoirs, as well as Christopher's (Christopher's is HYSTERICAL).  I'll ask her about them. :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: darius on June 29, 2004, 06:31:18 AM
In the Hugo Vickers book, the author also states that during the Second World War when Greece was invaded, George VI insisted that he would have any of the Greek royalk family in Britain EXCEPT Princess Nicolas, despite her being the mother of Marina, Duchess of Kent.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on June 29, 2004, 10:26:46 AM
Elena Vladimirovna had a very distinguished pedigree, having two parents who had well developed ideas about their status and position.  I am sure that her three older brothers, Kirill, Andrei and Boris gave her a pretty rough ride when she was younger which probably contributed to her perceived strong exterior.  The Vickers book implies that she was the bane of Alice Battenberg's life and she sounds, to all intents and purposes, very much her mother's daughter!  Actually Marie Pavlovna must have taken some comfort from Elena's marriage as the marriages of her sons were somewhat less than she had hoped for them.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2004, 11:01:22 AM
Quote
 Actually Marie Pavlovna must have taken some comfort from Elena's marriage as the marriages of her sons were somewhat less than she had hoped for them.


According to the Camera and the Tsars, Miechen wasn't too happy about her marriage to Nicholas (younger son of a King with no real prospects). As you say, her pedigree was fantastic and as ambitious as she was, I'm sure Miechen hoped for much better and hunted around for a few years after Max of Baden broke the engagement. This caused her daughter some embarassment if I recall correctly, but once Elena settled on Nicholas she was determined to marry him and Miechen eventually gave way (and I guess just tried to comfort herself by marrying Boris off to Olga!)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on June 29, 2004, 11:26:01 AM
That Miechen thought that Nicholas and Alexandra would entertain the idea of marrying Olga to Boris demonstrates just how her mind worked.  To her way of thinking, this would really put the Vladimirovichi back on the dynastic map; never mind the fact that he was a rake on an imperial scale and she was an innocent sheltered girl.  I know that dynastic alliances were still being conducted through marriages at this time but that suggestion must have given Alix a few sleepless nights.  It would seem that Olga also rejected Carol of Roumania; he may have seemed like a good idea at the time amd Missy probably would have been a sympathetic mother-in-law but with hindsight she would probably have been just as unhappy as his wife as Helen of Greece was.
Incidentally, there are two great photos of Elena's husband Nicholas in 1900 on the Pole Star on p.152 of "The Romanovs love power and tragedy".
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2004, 08:43:41 PM
Gosh, wasn't Boris almost 20 years older than Olga N?  :o Whose bright idea was that? :-/
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 17, 2004, 11:29:59 PM
Mom's. His. Charming, no?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2004, 12:16:41 AM
Quote
Mom's. His. Charming, no?


No!  ;)  We've read of Alexandra's horrified reaction but I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall to actually see/hear it when she got THAT little suggestion.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on August 18, 2004, 06:04:13 AM
Boris, Carol of Roumania, the poor girl seem to have been besieged by unsuitable suitors!
I think that you've got to hand it to Miechen, she really had some amazing ideas.  How she imagined that Alix would even contemplate that staggering piece of effrontery escapes me!
Of course Miechen's ideas about marriage are well known and very different to Nicky and Alix's.
I have read that the marriage of Tatiana Konstantinovna was rather regarded as an opportunity to pave the way for a change in the attitudes regarding marriages in the IF; this specifically would have affected the marriage prospects of OTMA and this was why Nicky agreed to Tatiana's choice of husband (Pce Bagration Moukhransky I believe, who was effectively a commoner)  Nicky and Alix hoped that the girls would marry for love (as they had done) and that some of them might choose to remain in Russia.
I love Miechen - I think that she inspired strong feelings in people.  Some loved her, some hated her but most agree that she knew how to be a Grand Duchess!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Jackswife on August 18, 2004, 08:17:09 AM
 Miechen was *definitely* outspoken, opinionated, and strong-willed, but she also had a lot of glamour and charisma that both Alix and Nicky lacked. She never lost an opportunity to express her hostility toward the Imperial couple, and Alix especially was a target of her wrath. I often in my mind think she was a throwback to Catherine the Great, and if she had been Empress, how differently things would have been in Russia. Other than the immediate family, she and Minnie are my two favorites of all.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2004, 08:20:48 AM
Oh, a pushy Mama ::) I don't think N & A would have agreed to it anyway, even if Olga was interested, which I'm sure she wasn't! Boris was born in 1877,  so that's an 18 year age difference, I can't believe anyone even had the audacity to suggest it. Poor Olga.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on August 18, 2004, 01:04:41 PM
The Vladimirs were a fascinating couple and i think that their marriage did work, alsmost in spite of their personalities.
I love the tale about the fight breaking out because Miechen decided to pay Vladimir back by kissing someone else - didn't they get temporarily banished for that little episode?
One really regrets that now there aren't really people who are cast from the mould that formed GDss Vladimir and I am not overly enamoured of her current descendants.
Many peole have said that Miechen would have made a fine Empress - who knows?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jackie3 on August 18, 2004, 03:47:35 PM
Quote
The main thing against Maria is that she is a woman! If Kyril denied the rights of other women who were more closely related than he, such as Xenia, then how can we expect to just stick a woman in now that it's convenient to the line?


True. As I've said in another thread, I wonder if Kyril would have the nerve to make his "claims" (legitimate or not) had Olga N. actually married Carol of Romania and thus been spared the murders of her family. Particularly after his behavior which Antonio mentioned. Something tells me he would have.

Which brings me back to the question, why exactly would Miechen want Boris to marry Olga? What was the gain for the Vladmirovitchi (especially considering the mutual dislike between the N&A and them)?

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 18, 2004, 04:08:51 PM
Quote

True. As I've said in another thread, I wonder if Kyril would have the nerve to make his "claims" (legitimate or not) had Olga N. actually married Carol of Romania and thus been spared the murders of her family. Particularly after his behavior which Antonio mentioned. Something tells me he would have.

Which brings me back to the question, why exactly would Miechen want Boris to marry Olga? What was the gain for the Vladmirovitchi (especially considering the mutual dislike between the N&A and them)?



Perhaps she saw the writing on the wall (this all assuming no one foresaw what lay ahead for the Romanovs). If Alexei died and with Michael's unsuitable marriage and if she felt people wouldn't accept Kyril's claim, she may have wanted to hedge her bets. If Kyril was accepted fine; but if he wasn't then Boris was next in line. Since he wasn't the most popular person and maybe people would've asked for the repeal of the Pauline law which would put Olga in line then you could kill 2 birds with one stone. Either Boris would be Tsar with the intelligent and lovely Olga, eldest daughter of NII, as his consort OR Olga would reign with Boris at her side. Either way Miechen would've seen as son on the throne and herself as almost a Dowager Empress (Empress Mother?). Plus, they were amongst the loveliest of European princesses and Boris could've done a lot worse (though Olga could've done a LOT better--even with Carol II of Romania!).
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eurohistory on August 18, 2004, 08:54:54 PM
If Olga Nikolaievna had survived her father, the inheritance of the Imperial throne would still not have gone to her.

Certainly Kiril jumped ship when the boat was sinking, but why does not anyone care to sanction Nicholas II for his inept stewardship of the Romanov throne?  Does the fact that he was brutally assassinated exempt him from his complete disregard for the historical legacy place don his shoulders?  By sailing the ship of state into the rocks, does Nicholas II not deserve full responsibility, for after all his inability to rule destroyed not only his own son's legacy, but those of his entire family.  When a ship's captain leads his charge to ruin, are the rest of the officers under his command and his own sailors thus condemned to ignominy and inaction?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jackie3 on August 18, 2004, 09:32:19 PM
Quote
If Olga Nikolaievna had survived her father, the inheritance of the Imperial throne would still not have gone to her.


Certainly not but I have no doubt that emigre monarchists would look to her rather than Kyril even if he was the pretender.

And yes Nicholas does bear a huge responsibility but Kyril forsook his pledged oaths to the Tsar and deserted his post, leaving the Empress and her young children alone to be victims of possible violence. Nicholas may have been responsible for much of what happened but Kyril's actions were not courageous or anything to be proud of. Many lower-class servants (like those who died in the cellar with the IF)  gave their lives for Nicholas, refusing to abandon him to the very end. Meanwhile his own cousin, a Grand Duke of Russia, 3rd in line to the throne jumped like a rat off a sinking ship, at the head of his troops, flying the red flag.

Of course that's just my opinion. We can agree to disagree on the matter.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eurohistory on August 18, 2004, 11:46:12 PM
Had Olga survived, married to a foreign prince who stood to inherit his country's throne, it would have been nearly impossible, for her to take up the Russian claims, particularly being a female preceded in the line of succession bny at least 15 other eligible male dynasts, and yes Kiril primus among them, among them some very popular Grand Dukes.

You see, and yes we can agree to disagree on this, inheriting the throne does not have anything to do with who you like or dislike for whatever reasons.  Kiril followed immediately after Michael who followed immediately after Alexei, whose own rights were violated by none other than Nicholas II, his own father, who had no legal right to renounce in his own son's name.

Le roi est mort, vive le roi...once the Tsar is dead (or in this case abdicated) the next Tsar is his immediate heir, in the case of Nicholas, that being none other than Alexis.  What right did Nicholas have to renounce in his own son's stead?  Without the authority of a crown council even!  Have you thought about the fact that perhaps if Alexis was allowed to succeed to the throne by his less than competent father (God rest his soul) the entire fiasco may have been avoided?  Instead, Nicholas is exempt from blame, his wife as well, and those who sought to protect themselves and their own families in his debacle are condemned?  I honestly, and respectfully really, fail to see the logic in this.

When the other members of the Imperial family tried to get Nicholas to see reason, he rebuked his own family...attempt after attempt failed, while in the meantime to ship of state sailed rudderless, a captain at the helm who, honestly, had no idea of East or West, much like a country I live in these days..but that is another story.

The fact of the mater is that Nicholas failed as a ruler, politician and military leader, a statesman the poor man was not...a father of great note and dedication I can see he was, a stronger husband he should have been...but he was not the victim of Kiril, but the victim of his own shortcomings.  That is Nicholas' fault, not Kiril's.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 19, 2004, 12:50:53 AM
Well, there's a whole section on this newsgroup devoted to just this argument so I guess there are some people who don't believe in Kyril's claim or at least think it should've passed from Vladimir to the next MALE Romanov. If Olga, etc... would've been banned, then IMO so should MV. But if any restoration would've happened back then, couldn't an entirely new manifesto been drawn up governing the succession? Anyhow, a moot point and off topic. Back to Boris and what a horrible suitor he would've been. I think he was probably as happy to escape marrying Olga and she was (ok, maybe not AS happy). He seemed to totally enjoy the playboy lifestyle and if he'd married Olga he not only would've had Miechen trying to make him clean up his act and be more presentable, he would've had to deal with N&A. There wouldn't have been any gallivanting around Paris with your mistresses then! I mean, Misha was put under the watch of the Imperial police for fear he'd run off and elope with his first non-suitable mistress. I can only imagine Boris would've been under lock & key!  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on August 19, 2004, 07:14:41 AM
I don't suppose that Boris' views are a matter of record; mind you I shouldn't have thought that they were even an issue as far as Miechen was concerned.  Once she had made her mind up to bring about the marriage, she probably considered it as good as done!
Robert Massie in "The last Courts Of Europe" mentions that Miechen considered herself to be a bit of a matchmaker; this surely must have been her most "creative" coupling!
As to Kirill, his claims, Maria Vladimirovna's claims, her son's claims (yawn) well as Bookworm quite correctly said in the other thread on MV, "pigs, skating, the hot place"..............need I say more?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 19, 2004, 10:44:59 AM
Quote
I don't suppose that Boris' views are a matter of record; mind you I shouldn't have thought that they were even an issue as far as Miechen was concerned.  Once she had made her mind up to bring about the marriage, she probably considered it as good as done!
Robert Massie in "The last Courts Of Europe" mentions that Miechen considered herself to be a bit of a matchmaker; this surely must have been her most "creative" coupling!
As to Kirill, his claims, Maria Vladimirovna's claims, her son's claims (yawn) well as Bookworm quite correctly said in the other thread on MV, "pigs, skating, the hot place"..............need I say more?


Well, Miechen's matchmaking skills must've been in her head! She herself had thrown over a prince to snag Vladimir which seems to be her last successful match. She had the humiliating time trying to marry Helen (which I don't understand as she was pretty, rich and well-connected)--first Max of Baden broke the engagement, then she tried with Albert I of Belgium and one other well-connected royal whose name escapes me. Helen finally chose Nicholas of Greece (which Miechen had to be dragged into agreeing too as he was only the 2nd son of a not-to-wealthy nouveau King). Then she was 'thrilled'  ::) with Kyril's choice of Victoria Melita--she only defended it because N&A opposed it and treated Kyril so badly (in her view). I'm sure it wouldn't have been her pick since Kyril was so close to the throne and VM was a divorced, non-Orthodox first cousin. Then Boris. Then Andrew basically 'shacks' up with Mathilde K (the ballerina whose name I'm not even going to try to spell without it in front of me!)--even marrying her after the Revolution and the birth of a son!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eurohistory on August 19, 2004, 08:50:09 PM
And what evidence, may I ask, have yu to state that Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna (Sr.) was happy with Kirill's choice of Victoria Melita just to spite N&A?  I would love to see the sourcing for this statement.

regards,

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 19, 2004, 11:13:32 PM
It's a cumulation of various bits of information, but I believe it was Charlotte Zeepvat who said in either Romanov Autumn or Camera and the Tsars that they had told Kyril to keep her as a mistress if he must but not marry her. Then once N&A treated Kyril so harshly--banishing him, etc...their anger turned towards NII and esp Alexandra who they felt controlled what N did. That's what I meant, I never said 'out of spite'. It was more a parental instinct to turn on those you feel are mistreating your son.

NII to MF 5 Oct 05
[after restoring Kyril's title] 'It would be interesting to know what Aunt Miechen thinks? How she must've hated us!'
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Martyn on August 21, 2004, 08:00:21 AM
Do we know why Max of Baden broke off the engagement to Elena Vladimirovna?  Is there any recorded reaction from the Vladimirs to this event?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eurohistory on August 21, 2004, 01:21:00 PM
Quote
Do we know why Max of Baden broke off the engagement to Elena Vladimirovna?  Is there any recorded reaction from the Vladimirs to this event?


Not the exact reasons behind this...but there was always a rumor around Max's sexuality...unsubstantiated, but there.

Helen Wladimirovna would have made a marvelous match for Max, evenbetter than the one he eventually married.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 21, 2004, 02:32:08 PM
Quote
Do we know why Max of Baden broke off the engagement to Elena Vladimirovna?  Is there any recorded reaction from the Vladimirs to this event?


In Camera and the Tsars I think it just states he changed his mind. The Vladimirs were NOT happy--it's embarrassing enough if it would happen today, but back then for a man to break off an engagement was considered very dishonorable and also would've reflected on the woman as somehow being 'not worth' the marriage (ridiculous I know). [I find it ironic though that Miechen threw over another man to try and snare Vladimir, though you can't argue that it was a much better match!]  KR recorded in 1900 that he'd heard from Minnie about Miechen's efforts to marry of Helen and how they were 'desperate' to find her another husband. Albert of Belgium  didn't seem interested. Miechen then personally wrote the Emperor asking him to invite the King of Belgium to Peterhof and Helen wrote the Empress saying her 'whole future depended' on this invitation. But Albert announced his engagement and that put an end to that.  Just a few months later KR would write that Nicholas of Greece went riding with Helen and there was mutual liking but Miechen 'rebuked' her daughter for this since Nicholas should NOT expect to marry her daughter since he was neither in line for a throne nor wealthy. KR felt that 'she and Nicky..go together perfectly. I heard that Miechen dreams of marrying her daughter to the Heir, Elena's first cousin, imaginging that this would be permitted.' In fact, it would be 2 more years before their engagement would be announced. I guess that Helen pulled a 'Beatrice' on her mother and stood her ground for the man she wanted (esp. since Miechen had made sure that Nicholas was told that he basically didn't have a chance with her daughter since he wasn't a 'suitable' match). Miechen had to change her mind under her daughter's determination to marry Nicholas (god for her!) and her search for other suitors had, KR wrote, 'been in vain'. I find this romantic as it was a true love match since Nicholas really didn't have anything to offer beyond himself and Helen was the granddaughter of the Tsar and immensely wealthy. Plus, it couldn't have been easy to withstand an onslaught by MP.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Jim1026 on August 23, 2004, 09:56:51 AM
 ???Has anyone on this board visited the burial site of
Grand Duchess Marie in Contrexeville, France?  I read somewhere that she has her on burial chapel.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Forum Admin on November 01, 2004, 11:20:00 AM
I just finished reading a fun old book by the former Countess Nostitz,who was an American, who married a wealthy Russian aristocrat at the turn of the century. Her stories are essentially accurate from what I can tell. I found this fascinating passage on page 184 ("The Countess From Iowa" Putnam's, New York, 1936)

    "One night early in December 1916 H.I.H. the Duke Alexander Leuchtenberg, cousin of the Czar, dined alone with me.
    "I have been sounded by the Vladimirs [the three Grand Dukes, Cyril, Boris, and Andrew] to know whether I would lead my Cossack regiments in a planned revolt against the Government," he said. "I answered that I would take no sides in all this mess, so I resigned my command.  We are driving as hard as possilbe straight to a revolution."

Interesting? no?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: gleb on January 13, 2005, 05:32:38 AM
Helena Vladimirovna on her wedding day at Tsarskoe Selo (She is in a room of the Cathrine palace)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/Russia/helvlad.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on July 16, 2005, 09:15:10 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/romanovs/gdandrewl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on July 16, 2005, 09:18:30 PM
from the 1903 ball
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/romanovs/plate15.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Lisa on July 17, 2005, 05:22:30 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/romanov_a_vcopie.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/m197501112253.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/m197501112259.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Lisa on July 17, 2005, 05:23:29 AM
with Mathide Kshesinskaya and their son about 1907
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/offi-42-8.jpg)


1920 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/1920.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 17, 2005, 06:41:39 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/GrandDukeAndreiVladimirovichasaChil.jpg)

Andrei as a toddler.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/TheVladmirevitchifamily1883.jpg)

Andrei (far right) with his brothers Boris (left) and Kyrill, his little Sister Elena (in her mother's arms) and his parents the Grand Duke and Grand Duchess Vladimir.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/meify008.jpg)

Andrei (far left) with is brothers Kyrill (left) &  Boris and his sister Elena.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on September 21, 2005, 02:35:34 PM
Could only find this one (from the costume ball 1903), hope you´ll like it:
(http://www.costumes.org/HISTORY/20thcent/1900s/1903ball/plate49.jpg)
I only know a few things about him:
-was said to be the father of Marie of Romania´s daughter Marie
-fancied Princess Victoria Eugenie of Battenberg in the early 1900s
-was a known womanizer ("the terror of jealous husbands as well as of watchfull mothers")
-3rd son of Grand Duke Vladimir Nikolaievich and Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin
-b. 12 Nov 1877, St. Petersburg, d. 9 Nov 1943, Paris
-married Zenaida Raschewsky in Genova 1919

That´s all I could find out, surely somebody else knows more!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Daniel Briere on September 21, 2005, 07:47:14 PM
Here’s one photo of him in the uniform of colonel of His Imperial Highness the Tsesarevich Atamansky Guards Cossack Regiment, taken between 1910-14.  He later commanded this regiment during the War (1914-1915).

 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/BorisVlad.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on September 22, 2005, 01:48:15 AM
I posted this picture on another thread.

Boris,his mother and brother Kyrill

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/mpsons1890s.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: darius on September 22, 2005, 06:57:43 AM
What is known about his final years in Paris during the German occupation. Is he buried there?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: kmerov on October 09, 2005, 12:59:40 PM
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/IF%20of%20Russia/atorboris.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 09, 2005, 01:23:36 PM
Quote
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/IF%20of%20Russia/atorboris.jpg)

Do you know when this picture was taken, kmerov?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: kmerov on October 09, 2005, 01:39:24 PM
No, I'm afraid not. I got it from the net, and it didn't have a date...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 09, 2005, 01:44:29 PM
Thanks anyway, kmerov. Are there more pictures of Grand Duke Boris around (also group photos)?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 09, 2005, 02:57:27 PM
This picture was posted on another tread by Svetabel. It shows the Vladimirovichi family and the on of Grand Duke Paul. My question: Who is who? Could somebody help? Thanks!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/vladandpaleysbefore1909-.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 10, 2005, 04:00:46 AM
Hi Linnea!

the front row is (left to right):

Princess Paley (wife of GD Paul) and their two daughters, Natalia and Irina
Ducky
Vladimir Prince Paley (son of GD Paul)
Maria Pavlovna (wife of GD Vladimir)
GD Vladimir (who was under 60 when this picture was taken!)

the back row:

Don't know A
Don't know B
GD Paul
GD Kyrill
Don't know C
Don't know D

A, B, C and D look strangely familiar. Is it possible that the children of Princess Paley's first marriage (Alexander b.1885, Olga b.1888, and Marianne b.1890) are among them? Alexander married the sister of Anna Vyrubova, but not until 1910.

Natalia was born in 1905, so I give this picture the date 1906.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 10, 2005, 01:28:44 PM
Thank you, bell_the_cat! I have a question about Grand Duke Kyrill´s children: Why were they styled Grand Duchesses as they "only" were great granddaughters of a tsar? I thought only children and grandchildren in the male line were styled this way? If Kyrill´s brothers Boris and Andrei would have married equally, which titles would their children have got?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 10, 2005, 01:54:36 PM
I have already posted this picture, but this one has much better quality and is also bigger.
(http://img218.exs.cx/img218/6886/boris20vlad6is.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 10, 2005, 02:48:06 PM
From what I've gleaned from this forum (!):

The children of Grand Duke Kyrill are grand dukes and grand duchesses because Kyrill was the theoretical "Emperor" after he proclaimed himself tsar of All the Russias in 1924. He was later recognised as such by most of the surviving grand dukes.

Boris and Andrei's children (even of equal marriages) would not have been grand dukes, because they were not sons or grandsons of a reigning monarch. This was a rule introduced by Alexander III. They would only have been nephews of an "emperor" i.e. Kyrill. These children would have been Prince and Princess like the children of KR and Mavra.

Are there any Princess Paley experts out there to identify ABC&D?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 10, 2005, 03:02:43 PM
Can anyone identify the others? The one at the back in the middle is the King of Siam. In the front second from the right is (I'm almost sure) Prince Waldemar of Denmark. This is one for Grandduchess Ella!

I must confess to being a Grand Duke Boris fan myself. I know he was objectionable, but there's something about him......
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on October 10, 2005, 09:35:22 PM
Quote
a group picture from 1911 (Boris is the second from right in the sitting row)
(http://www.soravij.com/coronation01a.jpg)


Having to break my 'no quoting pictures' stricture here.

It is Waldemar of Denmark 2nd from right and Prince William of Sweden (husband of Marie Pavlovna) on the far right next to him. I think the young man in the back row on the left might be one of the Danish princes.  ???  I also think the man on the far left, front row could be Alexander 'Alge' of Teck, Queen Mary's brother (later Earl of Athlone). It certainly looks like him but since I don't know the occasion I can't say for sure. Could the lady in the left center be Margaret of Denmark, Waldemar's daughter?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 11, 2005, 01:50:37 AM
Quote
a group picture from 1911
(http://www.soravij.com/coronation01a.jpg)

back row l to r: Prince Axel of Denmark, Price Fushimi-no-Miya of Japan, Prince Aage of Denamrk and Prince Erik of Denmark
front row l to r: Prince Alexander of Teck, Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich of Russia, Princess Marie of Sweden, Princess Alexander of Teck, Prince Valdemar of Denmark, Prince Vilhelm of Sweden
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 11, 2005, 05:10:06 AM
Thanks Linnea - I was way out on the King of Siam! It looks like this wedding only had B-list royals present.

Update: I just checked and Prince Aage didn't marry a Marie of Sweden! He renounced to his rights to the Danish throne in 1914, to marry Mathilda Calvi di Bergolo. Could this be an engagement photo?

I've another theory now: Marie of Sweden is Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, Wilhelm's wife and they are all attending George V's durbar in India?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 11, 2005, 05:36:15 AM
I've got it now - I knew there was a Siam connection!

Here's a quote from the Maria Pavlovna bio on the main site

"The birth of a son, in May 1909, failed to make bearable either the marriage or the goldfish bowl of the etiquette-driven Swedish court in which it existed; and in autumn 1911, the canny King Gustav suggested that his son and daughter-in-law take a cruise to Siam, to represent Sweden at the coronation of King Vajiravudh in Bangkok'something of what in modern parlance is called a second honeymoon, and eerily prescient of the similarly unsuccessful trip to the same part of the world undertaken by Prince Charles of Wales and his wife, Diana, some eighty years later.

Siam opened Marie's eyes in several ways. At the same time she was exposed to cultures and traditions, as splendid in their way as anything in Russia, she also discovered something less positive: that it was not possible that she and Vilhelm could go on living together. The intimacy she had hoped to experience with her husband during this change of scene proved a pipe dream; Vilhelm, Marie remembered in later years, seemed to take no impressions from their exotic surroundings, and was sunk in a depression the entire time'evidence that Marie was not doing all the suffering in the relationship."



Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on October 11, 2005, 08:50:21 AM
Quote
back row l to r: Prince Axel of Denmark, Price Fushimi-no-Miya of Japan, Prince Aage of Denamrk and Prince Erik of Denmark
front row l to r: Prince Alexander of Teck, Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich of Russia, Princess Marie of Sweden, Princess Alexander of Teck, Prince Valdemar of Denmark, Prince Vilhelm of Sweden


Thanks for that! I thought it could be Marie Pavlovna (since William was there) but something seemed slightly off. I also didn't go with my first instinct on Alice Athlone--same reason about husband being there.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 11, 2005, 10:41:16 AM
Oh, it is Maria Pavlovna! But as she was married to a Swedish prince at that time, I gave her the title of a Swedish Princess! Are there more pictures of Grand Duke Boris around, which haven´t been posted yet?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2005, 09:21:22 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/2b_1BorisVladimir.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/07363v1.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/07517v1.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2005, 09:22:14 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/25GrandDukeBorisVladimirovitchofRus.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/7f_1_b1.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2005, 09:23:53 PM
Boris with his wife Zinaida Rachevskya. They married in 1919.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/16BorisVladimirovitch.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Emilia on October 17, 2005, 02:44:09 AM
Thank you so much, grandduchessella! :-* :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 17, 2005, 09:18:40 AM
Quote
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/romanov/07363v1.jpg)

When was this one taken?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Tania+ on October 17, 2005, 10:57:09 AM
Linnea, look up at the upper left hand corner of the picture of Boris, and I believe there is a date stating that it is : 12/3/30. Could that be the date ?

Tatiana
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on October 17, 2005, 02:11:22 PM
Tania, do you mean the picture was taken in 1930? Boris would have been 60+ then! ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 19, 2005, 03:42:25 AM
BTW, I always wanted to find out pics from the fancy-dress ball of 1871 year in the Marble palace, Saint-Petersburg. And I 've seen by chance these 2 pictures.  :D

Grand Duke Vladimir - a brave musketeer

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/vladim1871marblepalace.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: kmerov on December 27, 2005, 05:43:11 PM
Why was Max of Baden considered suitable for GDss Elena and not Nikolaus. Wouldn't the son of a king be a better mach?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on December 27, 2005, 08:27:41 PM
Max was in line to becoming a reigning Grand Duke (of Baden) and was very well-connected and well-off. Nicholas was the 3rd son of a fairly impoverished 'upstart' monarch--George I.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 02, 2006, 07:35:30 AM

To me Ellen is a misunderstood woman, since Alice of Battenberg can't understand, that Ellen was born "Imperial Grand Duchess' which is a very high rank. I very much like Ellen and her daughters and...I very much like George I and his family. :)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: RomanovFan on January 03, 2006, 10:42:41 PM
At one point, Miechen wanted Elena to marry King Albert I of Belgium, but he married Princess Astrid of Sweden instead. ;) I don't think Albert was king yet at the time...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on January 03, 2006, 10:45:38 PM
Quote
At one point, Miechen wanted Elena to marry King Albert I of Belgium, but he married Princess Astrid of Sweden instead. ;) I don't think Albert was king yet at the time...


Yes she did. He was heir to the throne since Leopold II had no surviving sons. I quoted an entry from KR in an earlier post:

Quote

24 May 1900
Iheard from Minnie about Maria Pavlovna's efforts to marry off her daughter Elena. After the failure with Max [of Baden], they are desperate to find another husband. Their choice fell on Albert of Belgium, but he did not seem particularly keen. M.P. then wrote to the Emperor, asking him to invite the King of Belgium to Peterhof for the summer, while Elena wrote to the young Empres, declaring her whole future depended on this invitation. At this point Albert of Belgium announced his engagement to a Bavarian princess, and Michen telegraphed the Emperor that there was no longer any need to invite the King.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: CountessKate on January 04, 2006, 04:24:03 AM
Quote
Miechen wanted Elena to marry King Albert I of Belgium, but he married Princess Astrid of Sweden instead


He did not marry Astrid of Sweden, he married Elizabeth, Duchess in Bavaria.  His son Leopold married Astrid of Sweden.  Elizabeth was a catholic and it is very unlikely that Albert would have been looking for a non-catholic wife.  Astrid converted to catholicism on her marriage to Leopold and it is extremely unlikely that a marriage between Albert and Elena would have been allowed to go ahead if she hadn't converted.  Miechen must have known all along a marriage with Albert of Belgium would mean Elena would have to change her religious denomination.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: RomanovFan on January 04, 2006, 04:27:18 PM
Yeah, I know. I figured that out last night a while after I posted lol...sorry.

Yeah, Albert's wife was Elizabeth of Barvaria; his son Leopold III's wife was Astrid of Sweden ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marlene on January 11, 2006, 10:51:06 AM
Astrid did not convert until after the marriage to Leopold  - she remained Lutheran for about a year or so before she joined the Roman Catholic church.

Quote

He did not marry Astrid of Sweden, he married Elizabeth, Duchess in Bavaria.  His son Leopold married Astrid of Sweden.  Elizabeth was a catholic and it is very unlikely that Albert would have been looking for a non-catholic wife.  Astrid converted to catholicism on her marriage to Leopold and it is extremely unlikely that a marriage between Albert and Elena would have been allowed to go ahead if she hadn't converted.  Miechen must have known all along a marriage with Albert of Belgium would mean Elena would have to change her religious denomination.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: José on January 30, 2006, 12:58:15 PM
I read on bio of Queen Ena that Boris proposed to her.

Would such marriage be considered equal under the russian marriage laws, as Ena was a morganaut ?

And given the relations between the IF and the Battenbergs, I suppose that would have caused some friction between Nicholas-Alexandra and the Vladimirs.

But in the end I guess Miechen would have preferred Ena to Zenaide.
At least she had some "a little bit" of royal blood.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Jackswife on January 30, 2006, 05:38:33 PM
 The Anglophobic Miechen would have really had to eat humble pie if Ena had accepted Boris' proposal! :o I think she was such a strong-willed, forceful character that she really thought she could control her sons' marital choices. By the end of her life I think she was resigned to all the drama and upheaval that had happened in her life, and she was basically tired of it all. :(
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: SuSu on January 31, 2006, 09:42:55 AM
I may be wrong but I understood that originally Miechen was not too disposed of Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita.  She knew of the reprecussions of the marriage.

Since VM was a a divorcee, they were first cousins and Kyril was a member of the Imperial family the couple needed the tsar's approval to wed.

Kyril and Ducky knew this would not be forthcoming. In fact Alexandra was still irate about her divorce from GD Ernst.

The couple waited until after the birth of Alexei which moved GD Cyril down the dynastic ladder to wed. They hoped the happy birth would make the tsar more sympathetic to their marriage.

Unfortunately when Nicholas and Alexandra found out Kyril was stripped of title, honours and given 48 hours to leave Russia.

In response Kyril's father Vladimir resigned his official posts as a show of support for his son.

Miechen however was adamantly against Andrei's relationship with Mathilde Kshesinskaya. She was horrified of her husband GD Vladimir's friendship with the ballerina.

As strong as she was it seems she had little control over her sons. All three chose to marry for love.

 

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 31, 2006, 12:04:01 PM
Quote
I may be wrong but I understood that originally Miechen was not too disposed of Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita.  She knew of the reprecussions of the marriage.

Since VM was a a divorcee, they were first cousins and Kyril was a member of the Imperial family the couple needed the tsar's approval to wed.

Kyril and Ducky knew this would not be forthcoming. In fact Alexandra was still irate about her divorce from GD Ernst.

The couple waited until after the birth of Alexei which moved GD Cyril down the dynastic ladder to wed. They hoped the happy birth would make the tsar more sympathetic to their marriage.

Unfortunately when Nicholas and Alexandra found out Kyril was stripped of title, honours and given 48 hours to leave Russia.

In response Kyril's father Vladimir resigned his official posts as a show of support for his son.

Miechen however was adamantly against Andrei's relationship with Mathilde Kshesinskaya. She was horrified of her husband GD Vladimir's friendship with the ballerina.

As strong as she was it seems she had little control over her sons. All three chose to marry for love.

  



A few clarrifications may be in order.

Boris and Andrei did not marry dynastically. Fortunately, they chose to do this after the fall of the Imperial House so these marriages only harmed the prestige of the Romanovs in exile. I don't know if they necessarily "married for love". They married unequally when it seemed to no longer matter.

There is considerable misunderstanding about Kiril and Victoria M's situation so feel I must say something. The Fundamental Law precluded Kiril being "stripped of his title". He was a grand duke with succession rights throughout his life. All Nicholas could do legally was deprive him of his income and military rank. He was not banned from Russia. His marriage was illegal in Russia until the Tsar retroactively approved it years later. It was perfectly legal in the rest of the world.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: José on January 31, 2006, 02:14:22 PM
Sorry for insisting, but would a Romanov-Battenberg marriage be considered equal under the ancient russian laws.

Provided of course that the Tsar would give his permission since the relations between the 2 families were "in the freeze" ;D

I hardly think the requirement for equal marriage of grand dukes which happened in the late 18th and early 19th century qualify as "ancient Russian laws".

Tsar Nicholas I bent these rules considerably to allow equal marriage of favorite daughter Maria to a Beauharnais. Hardly royal or equal, that lot.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on January 31, 2006, 04:37:35 PM
Quote
I may be wrong but I understood that originally Miechen was not too disposed of Kyril's marriage to Victoria Melita.  She knew of the reprecussions of the marriage.

Since VM was a a divorcee, they were first cousins and Kyril was a member of the Imperial family the couple needed the tsar's approval to wed.

Kyril and Ducky knew this would not be forthcoming. In fact Alexandra was still irate about her divorce from GD Ernst.

The couple waited until after the birth of Alexei which moved GD Cyril down the dynastic ladder to wed. They hoped the happy birth would make the tsar more sympathetic to their marriage.

Unfortunately when Nicholas and Alexandra found out Kyril was stripped of title, honours and given 48 hours to leave Russia.

In response Kyril's father Vladimir resigned his official posts as a show of support for his son.


In Camera and the Tsars it was stated that Miechen was against the marriage and encouraged Kyril to keep Ducky as his mistress but not marry her. Once N&A made life so miserable for them though, Miechen's ire was raised and then she supproted the marriage. She can't have been too thrilled though except for Ducky's lineage.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on January 31, 2006, 04:40:23 PM
Quote
Sorry for insisting, but would a Romanov-Battenberg marriage be considered equal under the ancient russian laws.

Provided of course that the Tsar would give his permission since the relations between the 2 families were "in the freeze" ;D


I don't know if it would--one would think if Boris made any serious overtures, Miechen would've signed off on it but then Boris was pretty low and the food chain. Also Miche-Miche made overtures to May Teck (later Queen Mary). If it were expressly forbidden I don't know why he would've. She was just the first cousin once removed to the monarch whereas Ena was a granddaughter. Plus May had no fortune to recommend her either.

EVII raised Ena to a HRH when she married Alfonso, he probably could've done the same in this case--though with AXIII he was gaining a new crown for one of his relatives.

When an overture would've been made, relations were better weren't they? Nicholas II was closer to the Battenbergs then AIII since one of his BILs was one. Also Ena was Alix's first cousin.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 03, 2006, 06:51:14 AM
Hello!

I know very well that there are a lot of threads focus on Aunt Miechen, and I have enjoyed very much reading all of them, but I believe it could be interesting a thread about the relationship between the grand duke and the grand duchess Vladimirovich. Romanov´s always were bad husbands, with some great exceptions, and I wish to know if Vladimir was a good or a bad husband for Miechen. Anyone can provides info about  this point?

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on March 05, 2006, 04:50:50 AM
I think Vladimir was more a GOOD one than bad. :) He loved his wife and was under her strong influence. Recently I read letters of Grand Duchess Elizaveta Fedorovna (to Empress MF) where she was telling how much Vladimir suffered when Miechen had a miscarriage in 1889 and was near to death.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on March 05, 2006, 07:07:58 AM
You are most welcome, Eugenie! :)

In fact even here in Russia we can't boast about good bio on Vladimir, Miechen and their family. Only some articles and chapters in books related to the Romanovs or their palaces. Though I've just bought 2nd edition of GD Kyrill Vladimirovitch (son of Vladimir) memories (in Russian) where I found out quite a large bio-article on GD Viktoria aka Ducky, his wife!!! It's a great progress  ;) - the article is written by a German though.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on March 07, 2006, 12:53:09 AM
That's really interesting to know about Vladimir being so much 'infatuated' with his wife and being a good husband--I've just never thought much of the Vladimirovichi themselves (Vlad and Miechen's children and descendents), and Miechen was quite the character, to say the least. lol. It's cool to know that he was a good husband!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 08, 2006, 12:54:58 AM
Quote

It's likely that there are unpublished photos and diaries of the Vladimirovichi in the various Russian archives.

Boris married his mistress, a ballerina, in 1919. They lived in exile in France until his death in 1943. Andrei also married his famed ballerina mistress, also the mistress of Nicholas II and their cousin Serge. They lived with their son Vova until Andrei's death in 1956. Helen had already left Russia for her marriage to Prince Nicholas of Greece in 1902. Of all the offspring, she had the least to adjust to as she and her husband lived rather modestly in Europe. mostly France, for the rest of their lives. She died in 1957. Her grandchildren include Prince Michael of Kent, Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia, and the current Duke of Kent.

I've always believed, along with Ilana Miller, that Kirill was unfaithful to Ducky late in their marriage.



GD Boris wife was not a ballerina...More material to be published about GD Boris life soon...
thanks for any help
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 08, 2006, 07:21:15 PM
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/meudon1.jpg)

Here is the chateau of  GD Boris near Paris where he lived in exile in France with his wife and numerous people.
Chateau "Sans Souci" in Meudon near Paris
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Jackswife on March 10, 2006, 05:04:39 PM
 Miechen and Vladimir were very well-matched,  and they complimented each other in many ways. He was rather wild in his younger days but by the time Miechen came along he had apparently gotten all that out of his system and he was ready to settle down. They were both stylish, art loving, Francophiles so they made a good match. Of course, Miechen's retaining her Lutheran religion displeased her in-laws  ;) but Vladimir apparently never minded that.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 12, 2006, 07:29:39 AM
Quote
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/meudon1.jpg)

Here is the chateau of  GD Boris near Paris where he lived in exile in France with his wife and numerous people.
Chateau "Sans Souci" in Meudon near Paris




it's a beautiful house.    did he already own it when he went into exile?  (his mother owned a villa in france, didn't she?  or had she already sold it, when she went into exile?)

or was it purchased after he left russia?  (if that's the case, any idea if it was purchased with the proceeds from the sale of his portion of his mother's jewel collection?   i'm hoping he had other means to buy the house with & he was able to keep part, or all, of what he'd recieved....)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: royallover on March 12, 2006, 08:21:05 AM

   frimousse wrote,



 
Quote
with his wife and numerous people.



  Who?

  Best wishes
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 12, 2006, 07:10:41 PM
GD Boris bought this house in exile after his mother's death.
Just before this house he was rue de Marignan, n#18 near the Champs Elysées.
He lived here with his wife, his mother-in-law, his private secretary, his niece, a  middle aged painter, two Russian ladies in a little house apart in the park, and domesticity headed by Nikita the butler.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: dp5486 on March 13, 2006, 09:13:08 AM
Did these aforementioned people, including his mother-in-law and secretary leave Russia with him?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 13, 2006, 01:30:52 PM
Quote
GD Boris bought this house in exile after his mother's death.
Just before this house he was rue de Marignan, n#18 near the Champs Elysées.
He lived here with his wife, his mother-in-law, his private secretary, his niece, a  middle aged painter, two Russian ladies in a little house apart in the park, and domesticity headed by Nikita the butler.




so, is it safe to assume he bought the house after selling his part of the jewel collection he inherited from his mother?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Valmont on March 13, 2006, 02:25:41 PM
I don't mean to break up the magic about their relationship, but I remember reading that Alexander II  (??) banned them from St. Petersburg for a while due to an inciden that ocurred during a Diner (I guess it was in the Vladimir palace) where each one was with their repective lovers and Vladimir did not take it very well that Miechen's lover was showing to much "affection" for Miechen and Vladimir hit  Miechen's lover....
I think that they as any other couple had their ups and downs. They did love each other very much, as same as Xenia and Sandro loved each other very much, but eventually they had their problems...
Maybe someone else can bring some light to either this incident ever ocurred or not...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 13, 2006, 03:55:34 PM
Quote
Did these aforementioned people, including his mother-in-law and secretary leave Russia with him?

Yes his future mother-in-law with a lady-companion ( and her little daugher) joined GD Boris, his mistress that is to say her daughter, and his secretary in Sebastopol where they all left for Constantinople.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 13, 2006, 04:01:20 PM
Quote



so, is it safe to assume he bought the house after selling his part of the jewel collection he inherited from his mother?


I guess part of it was sold for this purpose. But not all as the GDuke's wife is shown on photographies with emeralds afterwards. And also Boris has managed to save a part of his fortune abroad.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: dp5486 on March 13, 2006, 04:09:15 PM
Thank you! You are certainly our new expert on Grand Duke Boris! Do you happen to have names for the lady companion and the secretary?

I was looking through a Romanov genealogy website and I realized I never really noticed how young Zenaide was at the time of the Revolution! She was only twenty and already divorced!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 13, 2006, 04:16:30 PM
Quote

I guess part of it was sold for this purpose. But not all as the GDuke's wife is shown on photographies with emeralds afterwards. And also Boris has managed to save a part of his fortune abroad.


i can't speak for anyone else, but i'd love to see the photographs you mention (his wife in the emeralds).    (i wonder if the emeralds were the famous necklace eventually acquired by Cartier? i can't recall if it was sold directly to the jeweller, or if they bought it sometime later....    but it was, at some point, bought by Cartier, and they, in turn, sold it to Barbara Hutton.    they would subsequently reset the stones for her, and create the somewhat more famous piece that could be worn as a necklace or as a tiara.)    


btw, are there any photos of the interiors of the house?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 13, 2006, 04:40:38 PM
Thank you ! Well I'm not sure that Zénaide (or Zinaïda) has married this man before, it is not clear. On the contrary an English biographer has spread the info that she was divorced which is not  proved and this was repeated in all the threads on different sources.
In my opinion as far as I know now he must have been a lover or a fiancé...But I am not sure 100%
The point is that since the time GD Boris and she have been lovers they remained in love untill the GDuke's death.
This rather playboy GDuke always breathed and lived under her influence.
During Aunt Miechen's life he was the big boy's Mama, and after that he was deeply involved with his wife and even tied up with Zina's own circle of friends and family.
The couple was close to GD André and Mala ( Mathilde), who also chosed love. GD Boris was faithful to the head of the family GD Kyril, but I think Ducky didn't go well with Mala and Zina who were not royals.
During the final days of GDss Wladimir in Contrexéville, Boris lived in Hôtel La Souveraine next to his mother, but Zina lived in another hôtel...
In the room where Aunt Miechen expired, Zina and Mala were not among the people being present. But Ducky was.
I think these boys altogether feared, respected, and cherished this terrible Mama !
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Jackswife on March 13, 2006, 06:17:26 PM
 Yes, Valmont, that was a widely reported "scandal" of the time. As I recollect, the actor Lucien Guitry was appearing in a play in St. Petersburg, and one night at a restaurant Miechen and Vladimir found out that he was present and invited Guitry and his entourage to join their gathering. Guitry (along with his girlfriend) joined the group, and as time went on and things got more and more raucous, a drunken Vladimir made a pass at Guitry's girlfriend.  Guitry then made a pass at Miechen (which I'm sure she did nothing to discourage ;)) and an enraged Vladimir proceeded to threaten to kill Guitry. Naturally, AIII was in a fearful rage about the whole thing and let it be known that M&V should leave town for France for a bit until things had cooled.  I think it's a classic story that shows the dirrences between the worldly more sophisticated Vladimirs and the much more strait-laced Tsar.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: dp5486 on March 14, 2006, 09:56:12 AM
Your very welcome! The website I found that information on said her (supposed) first husband was one Nikolai (Nicholas) Eliseev.

Keep up the good work. I love it when the shroud of mystery and the unknown starts to lift off of those from the Romanov family that we don't know much about!

I guess Zina and Mala realized their (unfortunate) place of unacceptance by their formidable mother-in-law (I guess they still got to enjoy her jewelry after she was gone though!)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on March 15, 2006, 08:26:12 AM
That story does show the contrast of the two couples well. They were very wordly and sophisticated whereas Nicholas and Alexandra tended to be more Victorian, traditional, and pursued more quiet ways of life. As for Vladimir and Maria's relationship, it seems to have gone well; it was a very different relationship than that of Nicholas and Alexandra, but it had love in it. For a Romanov couple, they seem to have cared enough for each other, and made quite a combination, in my opinion. It is a pity there are not more books about them, because if there were I would certainly read them. They were interesting enough.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 16, 2006, 09:29:37 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/mariepavlovnahelen13C0E4.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Tecla81925HB.jpg)

Boris' wife.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: anabel on March 17, 2006, 11:15:47 AM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/mariepavlovnahelen13C0E4.jpg)


Who are the men behind Maria and Elena? Nicholas of Greece and Boris? :-/
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on March 17, 2006, 04:56:39 PM
One is definitely Prince Nicholas.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on March 18, 2006, 05:14:31 AM
Quote

Who are the men behind Maria and Elena? Nicholas of Greece and Boris? :-/

Yes, they are Nicholas and Boris.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Teddy on March 18, 2006, 10:09:45 AM
Mandie, from which book is the picture of Helen and Maria?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 18, 2006, 07:54:38 PM
One of my friends gave it to me, i have no clue were she got it. sorry. :-/
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: royallover on March 19, 2006, 09:17:18 AM


  According Ferrand,GD Boris had an illegitimate son by Jeanne Lacroix:
  Jean Boris Lacroix(1905-)
  Is it true?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 19, 2006, 02:18:14 PM
Yes it is true. He had a son Boris Lacroix 1902-1984 (nickname Bob or Bobik) from Jeanne Aumont-Lacroix .Boris Lacroix had two sons : Serge and Joël.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: royallover on March 19, 2006, 05:32:29 PM


   Frimousse,

Zina built a "villa" in French Riviera.Before or after the death of Boris?

 Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on March 20, 2006, 03:49:12 AM
Quote

    Frimousse,

Zina built a "villa" in French Riviera.Before or after the death of Boris?

  Thanks in advance.


The villa was built in Nice before GD  Boris' death, mostly with her mother's funds.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: José on March 22, 2006, 12:03:46 PM


I read somewhere - maybe at Queen Sofia's family - that Miechen opposed as much as she could to Elena-Nicolas wedding on the grounds that he was just an impoverished third son, a meaningless prince.
She even considered marrying Elena to Pr. Louis II of Monaco  :o

In the end Elena and Nicolas got married and had a fine royal and princely descendency that snob Miechen would certainly approve (at least some of them- I am thinking of Marina Ogilvy, however she is more discrete these days than Stephanie of Monaco)  ;D
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2006, 04:46:33 PM
I also read the same in ''Lifelong passion''...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on March 22, 2006, 07:18:26 PM
Yes, it's true. It's discussed somewhere on here--I quoted the passages myself--but it's lost to my memory as where.  :-/

It basically boiled down to Miechen feeling that her daughter--the only daughter of an immensely wealthy and influential Grand Duke, beautiful and well-connected--should be able to make a glittering match. Her first engagement, to Prince Max of Baden (himself an heir to a Grand Duchy, wealthy, attractive and connected), seemed to fit the bill. Max broke off that engagement for whatever reason.

Miechen then proceeded to embarrass her daughter somewhat by her increasingly public attempts to find her daughter a 'suitable' husband. She tried to entice Prince Albert (future King Albert I) of Belgium but he became engaged to someone else.

In the meantime, Helen had fallen for Nicholas of Greece, and he for her. They had met on some of his visits to Russia--his mother, Queen Olga, being a Russian Grand Duchesses, and his Aunt Minny being the Dowager Empress. Nicholas was very popular with his Romanovs relatives but Miechen tried to put the kibosh on the romance. Prince Nicholas might be good-looking and popular and the son of a Grand Duchess but he was also the 3rd son (and his elder brother Crown Prince Constantine had sons) of a relatively impoverished 'nouveau' King.

Miechen hoped that time & distance would dampen their feelings. It didn't though, and when she couldn't find anyone else, she gave in.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on April 01, 2006, 02:42:10 PM
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/boris.jpg)

GD Boris Wladimirovich during a visit to ( may be) Cruiser Aurora 1917. He is sitting in the midde.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: pentetorri on April 02, 2006, 09:14:11 AM
Dear Frimousse,

We are always nicely surprised by your knowledge of the "lesser known facts" about the Romanov family. And the pictures you post are really wonderful and hardly seen before. Thanks a lot!!!

By any chance do you have a picture of the son of Grand Duke Boris Wladimirovich.? Do you know if his son inherited his father'estate in France or personal property? Was he ever recognized or acknowledged by the Grand Duke Boris?

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on April 02, 2006, 01:18:02 PM
 :-/ Thank you Pentetorri ! Hope to post other photographies...

No Boris didn't recognize legally his son, who was raised in France in his mother's family. His mother Jeanne died before the twenties, and was burried in Père Lachaise cemetery ( Paris). GD Boris visited her grave when he came back from Italy to France in exile.
But Boris very often would see his son in France ( and grand sons), who visited him regurlarly till GD Boris's death. He supported financially Lacroix's own family.
I think the Lacroix discreetly relate to this past and don't give publicity to their  father's birth. So I don't have photographies of them.

The estate was sold during German Occupation, and GD Boris and his wife moved to a house (hôtel particulier)in the elegant XVIth arrondissement in Paris which was destroyed in the seventies to build a large building.  
Sans Souci in Meudon was also destroyed and in the park were built modern buildings and compounds...
Sad indeed...only photos remain.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ALEXEI_P on May 12, 2006, 05:17:44 PM
Does anyone have any "Formal (or informal, for that matter) Photos" of the Vladimirovichi in a familygroup.  I've seen individual photos of Vladimir, Meichen, Kyrill, Boris, Andrew and Helen, but not a "family portrait".  I did a search of the site, but nothing came up.  Thanks for any information any of you might have.

Alexei
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 13, 2006, 04:23:53 AM
Like these ones?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/elena/el1.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/elena/el5.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on June 06, 2006, 09:04:50 AM
GD Boris ( on the left ) beginning his world tour in January 1902 on board the German ship " Bremen ".  He had left Russia in autumn to Cannes- where he lived at Gd Michael and Countess de Torby's house.
He was escorted from Russia to Genoa-Italy ( where he boarded) by Count Stackelberg who was Aide de Camp of his father GD Wladimir.

They are en route to Egypt . In the middle Lieutenant A. Greaves, on the right Paul Demidoff.
He would visit Egypt, India, Ceylon,  Siam ( where he represented Russia at the King's coronation as did Gdss Maria Pavlovna his cousin who represented Sweden with her husband...Remember it was a last chance journey with her husband as her marriage failed) then he visited French Indochina, Japan ( It was before the Russo-Japonese war), Honolulu,  California, Chicago, New York and back to Europe in October.
He was accompanied by His friends Lieutenant Nicholas Strandtmann from the 4th battalion of the Imperial Family Fusiliers, elegant Lieutenant A Frederici Hussar of the Guard, the hunter Lieutenant A Greaves-same regiment-, Constantine Greaves his brother the younger, Ivan de Schaeck, and many members of his suite.  

It was told that his world tour was planned by his parents, with Emperor Nicholas' approval, to make him forget his French mistress and strengthen his moral nature...


  
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 06, 2006, 10:04:47 AM
Picture of Boris and his wife aboard the Olympic in New York in 1925

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/romanov/granddukeboris.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: joye on June 07, 2006, 01:22:45 AM
re the photo of the Siamese coronation 1910, Linnea has all the people correct.  I had seen this photo before, but had difficulty finding it.  Royalty Magazine had a 3 or 4 part series a few months back on the Siamese Kings which  was interesting, and featured  Rama VI.

The Earl of Athlone and his wife, Princess  Alice of Athlone, Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, the younger and her husband, Prince Willem of Sweden, and the Danish princes, AAge, Erik, and Valdemar plus  Boris the Japanese prince.

Signed  HRH
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on June 07, 2006, 10:35:58 AM
You are right. I made a mistake about his travel to Siam. His first one in May 1902 was in Bangkok from Singapore to pay a visit to Prince Chira who was educated in Saint-Petersburg. He visited also King Chulalongkorn...
GD Boris and his suite later pursued their travel to Saigon.

His second trip I've mentioned above for the Coronation was in 1910. Thank you for the correction.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on June 07, 2006, 11:25:59 AM
Quote
You are right. I made a mistake about his travel to Siam. His first one in May 1902 was in Bangkok from Singapore to pay a visit to Prince Chira who was educated in Saint-Petersburg. He visited also King Chulalongkorn...
GD Boris and his suite later pursued their travel to Saigon.

His second trip I've mentioned above for the Coronation was in 1910. Thank you for the correction.

The first trip would have been the year his son was born. Did it work, did he forget about Jeanne for a time?

As for the coronation trip - I would have loved to have been there! This was the time Maria Pavlovna was beginning to realise her marriage was a sham - she came home determined to divorce! She looks a bit uncomfortable sitting next to Boris.

In the younger pre-war pictures he always looks a bit lacking in self confidence (just my opinion). In later pictures (including the one during the war with the soldiers), he looks more relaxed.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on June 07, 2006, 02:54:19 PM
Yes he doesn't seem very happy..I don't know why.

To give you an idea about protocol on his first Siamese trip:

GD Boris and his suite were welcomed by the royal yacht "Agaret" decorated with flags, with Siamese dignitaries and a Russian diplomat on board. After hearing the hymns, they navigated on River Menam to Bangkok. On the banks of the river cannons shot in his honour.
At 9 PM they arrived at the royal pier where Prince Chira and members of the Court welcomed them. Fireworks began and the palaces all around were illuminated.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on June 07, 2006, 03:10:19 PM
They came in horse drawn coaches escorted by a company to the Saranrom Palace, where private appartments with European furniture were put at their disposal with a Siamese officer educated at the Wiener Neustadt Military Academy who therefore spoke perfectly German, plus another officer who spoke Russian for the suite.
They had supper during which Siamese pages from the nobility dressed in red tunics and black silk breeches would wait on. They had the visit of different princes who hold official functions for their country.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: frimousse on June 07, 2006, 03:18:57 PM
The day after a royal carriage was sent to GD Boris to pay a visit to King Chulalongkorn who waited for him in the courtyard of the Royal Palace which was considered a special mark of esteem.
Military and Court dignitaries were introduced to GD Boris.

In the afternoon the king gave him back his visit at Saranrom Palace. In the evening an official gala was given by the king in presence of the Court, ministers, and Diplomatic Body.

The trip would last one week before going to Indochina.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on June 08, 2006, 01:03:00 AM
Sounds like a great trip!  8-)
 
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 02, 2006, 12:11:42 PM
Two more GD Boris Vladimirovich pictures:
(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/1762/boris57zf7.png)

(http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/153/boris58qc5.png)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 04, 2006, 06:06:19 PM
Was this when Boris went to Siam in 1902? I suppose he would have got the Trans Siberian railway out to China and then got a boat down to Siam.

The photos don't look much  like him - he looks quite thin - still a great guy though!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 05, 2006, 02:23:09 AM
Was this when Boris went to Siam in 1902? I suppose he would have got the Trans Siberian railway out to China and then got a boat down to Siam.


If I remember correctly he was in Siam once again in in 1912.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 06, 2006, 04:24:44 AM
 Yes, I couldn't decide whether it was the 1902 trip or the 1912 trip (Where there other far east excursions?). I thought Boris looked quite young and slim, and because of the absence of motor cars, plumped for the 1902 date!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 20, 2006, 02:09:22 PM
I decided to post my question here, on the thread where one can see (above) Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna in her teens and youth.

The thing is that I dag out in an old Soviet magazine of the beginning of the 1990s a photo of a little girl. She has a striking resemblance to GDss Elena Vladimirovna.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/girl.jpg)

The caption says only "Photographs of the Imperial Theatres. 1890s".

Close-up

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/closeup.jpg)

What do you all think? Is it Elena's photo? I am tending to think it's her, but what a costume? Some domestic performance?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 20, 2006, 03:17:42 PM
I do also think that the girl looks a lot like Elena (those eyes!). Maybe she is wearing a fancy dress for a children´s party or something like that?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 20, 2006, 10:29:32 PM
It really does look like her--especially the large, dark eyes. The Romanovs enjoyed family theatricals didn't they?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 22, 2006, 01:56:06 PM
The Romanovs enjoyed family theatricals didn't they?

Yes, they loved such family stagings. :) Actually surprisingly enough that a  daughter of such an arrogant and haughty woman as GDss Maria Pavlovna-elder appears wearing a maidservant's dress  ::). It's easier to imagine Elena in the more magnificent decorations. :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jacqueline on August 22, 2006, 04:09:09 PM
Good find!  That is definitely Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna.  Everything matches... the brow, the nose, mouth shape and the left ear match perfectly.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 22, 2006, 04:48:47 PM
It does look like her, and the Vladimirvichi in general. Photos of her seem to be rather rare, so I have never seen that many of her. She was beautiful in youth, although rather looking like her mother I think. Elena had rather dark looks.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2006, 08:23:50 PM
I think Ellen looked like her father more. Look at photos of her father as a young man and you'll see what I am talking about.  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 23, 2006, 01:12:39 PM
Yes she did look very Vladimivichi, I agree. It seems the whole family had largely the same looks so it is rather hard to tell where they come from sometimes. In personality, all of them were said to be rather haughty,because of their mother and her quest for status.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 23, 2006, 09:08:16 PM
I think Ellen and Andrei were the nicer ones of the bunch.  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 24, 2006, 09:02:28 AM
Boris was quite nice too, IMO. :D He was kind of eccentric, but in a funny way.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet_W. on August 24, 2006, 12:10:40 PM
Boris was nice? And interesting?!? Yikes!

I haven't read anything to indicate he was anything more than a one-note prolifigate. As Greg King's book states, Boris took advantage of his position--knowing that he would never held responsible--to seduce both married and unmarried women whose husbands, fiancees and male relatives were under his command. In order to support this lifestyle, of course, he spent money left and right, and Mommy was constantly covering his debts. Then along came the Revolution and more than a few Grand Dukes who were thoughtful, constructive men were executed by the Soviet, but nonessential Boris survived, married his longest-term mistress, then settled into rolly-polly, prematurely burned-out middle age.

As the saying goes, Life isn't fair.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2006, 12:28:27 PM
Indeed ! I like his loyal brother Andrei, who stood by his mistress and married her.  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 24, 2006, 03:19:52 PM
Well, Boris also married his mistress like his littel brother. I think King tends to be a bit too critical in describing the Romanovs in his latest book. Surely Boris was a good-for-nothing person, no doubts, but not a bad person - just have a look at Staffan Skott´s great book Romanovs. Boris was the only Romanov who went to Mogilev the day after Nicholas´ abdication, very much unlike his unloyal brother.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2006, 08:44:49 PM
Well...the only crime against him was that he was a skirt chaser and a playboy who did not takes his responsibility as a royal person seriously. He was rumoured to have a relationship with Missy and propoesed at one point to Ena. That plus Michen's plan to marry him to Nicky's daughter Olga was one of the few things we hear from Boris. Certainly Alicky's distaste for Boris's private life was well known. Andrei was more of a puppy to Mathilde, and we did not hear him flirting around having sexcapades.  >:(
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet_W. on August 24, 2006, 10:23:50 PM
Alexandra made mistakes, many of them colossal, but she had a sense of duty and didn't believe in free rides. Boris felt entitlement, and what did he give in return? Excuse the cliche, but if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

Boris felt the world owed him a living. What he was owed, minimal, was a good kicking in the postier. And those who spawned and encouraged him deserved it as well.

It's the indolent and egotistic behavior of moral insects such as Boris that is ultimately used to justify revolution and bloodshed. We recently have had a situation in Iran where some "brave" men felt a sense of entitlement that resulted in rape, death, and probably the capture, mutilation and death of some of their fellow troops who were innocent of that evil. I have no patience--or leniency--for people who do not care or wish to understand that their selfish, immoral behavior impacts others.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2006, 10:40:30 PM
Indeed ! Boris had no moral fibre and a sense of responsibility as a member of the Romanov family. He is a parasite of the system. It would be difficult for Alicky to accept someone like him as her son-in-law. Missy once wrote that " a crown has no meaning unless accompany by duty." I cannot agree with that more !  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 28, 2006, 08:58:14 AM
I don't know much about Elena, but she seems to have been a good woman. Boris was of course a playboy, harmless enough politically, but one who perhaps gave much damage to his country inadvertently. He didn't think what the consuquences of his behaviour were, I suppose, and perhaps could not, that being so alien to his temprament. He was much different than the kind of royalty represented by Alexandra, the more dutiful kind.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2006, 09:06:22 PM
Yes...Boris's skirt-chasing reputation must have horrified Alicky, when talk of marriage between him and her daughter Olga was suggested. Yet she seemed to get along with Ellen (as proven when their children Olga, Elisabeth and Marina got to play with the Tsar's children).  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 28, 2006, 09:54:33 PM
I think a lot of that has to do with the easygoing Nicholas of Greece, Ellen's husband, and one of Nicholas II's closest friends.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2006, 11:08:24 PM
True...Although Greek Minny wrote that Alicky did not enjoy they (the Greeks) share their common memories with Nicky because she cannot participate. She was very jealous in that. Also I think Ellen was a very proper lady and less grand than her august mother (whom both Alicky and her mother-in-law disaprroved).  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 29, 2006, 08:53:20 AM
Yes but perhaps the fact that Nicholas's children played with Nicholas & Alexandra's children had more to do with the 2 Nicholases close friendship rather than a relationship between Alexandra and Ellen. Still, Ellen was no doubt friendlier than Miechen.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2006, 10:29:46 AM
Indeed ! Alexandra as mother held the right of what they could play with. The fact that the Greek children were admitted into this private world was clearly a mark of favour. The girls were so protected from the real world that Missy found them all so naive, when she had the opportunity to talk to them.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 29, 2006, 12:01:54 PM
It is interesting that Elena's daughters were allowed to play with otma and Alexei.That clearly is a mark of favour.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: carl fraley on August 29, 2006, 12:35:56 PM
you also have to remember that Prince Nicholas of Greece was also Nicky's first cousin as well.  THe Gluckburgs (spelling?) were a very close knit group...  Regarless of Nicky and minny's feelings towards Meichen
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 29, 2006, 12:53:14 PM
Yes, and they didn't like Miechen. Elena was raised by her, but it seems, didn't take after her that much.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 29, 2006, 02:17:38 PM
Elena was raised by her, but it seems, didn't take after her that much.

Well, Elena was Miechen´s daughter, no doubts. "God first, then the Russian Grand Dukes, then the rest" is a quote from her. I have also raed that she behaved quite snobbish against poor Alice Battenberg, Princess Andrew of Greece.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2006, 07:25:31 PM
Alice was quite deaf so she wasn't that disturbed by it. However one must also remember the stigma place on people with morganetic blood. The nasty letters written by Willy and Augusta to QV regarding Beatrice's wedding was an indication of what grand families feel about it. On that note, Ellen was just following the norm.  :-\
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Sarushka on August 30, 2006, 07:14:20 PM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Vladimirovichi.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 30, 2006, 09:55:44 PM
Alice was quite deaf so she wasn't that disturbed by it. However one must also remember the stigma place on people with morganetic blood. The nasty letters written by Willy and Augusta to QV regarding Beatrice's wedding was an indication of what grand families feel about it. On that note, Ellen was just following the norm.  :-\

She and Alice were actually 2nd cousins through the Hesse line:

Marie Alexandrovna (nee Hesse) m. Alexander II--Vladimir--Ellen
Alexander of Hesse m. Julia Hauke (cr. Pss Battenberg)--Louis Battenberg--Alice

It's documented how Alexander III felt about his Battenberg cousins--does anyone know Vladimir's opinions?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2006, 02:28:49 AM
Yes and it was Julie Hauke's morganetic blood that got tainted. Also it was not a secret that both Marie and Alexander may not have been the natural child of the old Duke of Hesse...Tsar Nicholas I heard about it (around the time of the marriage between his son Alexander and Marie of Hesse) and dismissed it (he didn't mind).  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on August 31, 2006, 10:40:10 AM
Well, from Elena's upbringing she still probably carried some things. I woudn't doubt that. Miechen was a formidable mother.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2006, 11:33:45 AM

It's documented how Alexander III felt about his Battenberg cousins--does anyone know Vladimir's opinions?

I can imagine WHAT were Miechen's opinions. ::)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2006, 11:36:04 AM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Vladimirovichi.jpg)

There is a wonderful photo from the same sitting with only Vladimir and Miechen and their bulldog :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Linnea on August 31, 2006, 11:43:37 AM

It's documented how Alexander III felt about his Battenberg cousins--does anyone know Vladimir's opinions?

I can imagine WHAT were Miechen's opinions. ::)

Surely! But taking a look on Miechen´s own pedigree, one has to notice that it´s not very "grandiose" either. Several counts, barons and even mere "von and zus". ::)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2006, 12:01:30 PM

It's documented how Alexander III felt about his Battenberg cousins--does anyone know Vladimir's opinions?

I can imagine WHAT were Miechen's opinions. ::)

Surely! But taking a look on Miechen´s own pedigree, one has to notice that it´s not very "grandiose" either. Several counts, barons and even mere "von and zus". ::)



But she was very proud of her Slavic roots ;D meaning the Mecklenbourg House.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: TampaBay on September 03, 2006, 09:38:53 AM
When GD Helen/Ellen of Russia married Prince Nichloas of Greece, some Tsar (AIII or NII???) built them a palce in Greece as a wedding present; The Nicholas Palace.

There must have been very close frienship in there somewhere besides the family ties to receive a custom built palace for a wedding gift.

TampaBay 
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 03, 2006, 09:53:32 AM
The Tsar was Nicholas II. I thought the palace was built by her father Grand Duke Vladimir for his daughter. He certainly had the funds to do so. If it had been the Tsar, it must have the the Glucksborg (Danish) connection.  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 09, 2006, 01:36:03 PM
Princess Nicholas is one of my all time favorites!!! :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/03_1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Ellen/elenaaav.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Ellen/j9.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Ellen/HU028514.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Ellen/Ellen1930s.jpg)

She was pretty, when young, when she got older, umm, she look to me like a racone.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: mitia on September 10, 2006, 11:54:03 AM
Svetabel, I was thrilled to read about " a photo of same sitting with only GD Vladimir & Miechen and their bulldog ".
Do you mean the same black and white french bulldog that is on the family photo of Miechen in mourning clothes with her children posted earlier on this thread ? This particular french bulldog was named Spot, went into exile to France with Maria Pavlovna the elder in 1919, and after her death in Contrexeville was adopted by GD Boris.
If ever it was possible for you to post the photo of the couple with the ( french ? ) bulldog, I would be very grateful to you as I am writing an article about " early imperial french bulldogs in Europe before 1918 " for the winter issue of a dogs magazine. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on September 11, 2006, 08:15:34 AM
Who is it in that picture of the woman walking beside the man in uniform? I don't recognize them.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on September 11, 2006, 09:42:07 AM
In the one Mandie posted? That's Helen with, I presume, Nicholas. His face is somewhat shadowed but I'm pretty sure it's him.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on May 08, 2007, 03:41:18 PM
Thanks for posting that because I had never seen it, and Elena looks so Imperial, and exactly like the idea of Vladimirvichi Family pride there. Of course, you can see that in her expression in other photos, but in this one the Court dress and pose helps- along with her expression. What a lovely pearl kokoshik, were not they called? Does anyone have any other pictures of anyone wearing it/ or could direct me to threads that have pictures?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 09, 2007, 01:04:04 AM
Does anyone have any other pictures of anyone wearing it/ or could direct me to threads that have pictures?

You can go to www.photoarchiv.spb.ru and browse there the Coronation albums of 1896 year. There are many rare and wonderful pictures there.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on May 09, 2007, 08:47:36 AM
Miechen, Ducky, Nicholas II and Boris at the foundation laying for the Emperor Alexander III Russian museum west building laying in 1914.

(http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/getImage.do?object=2500358469&original=1)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 09, 2007, 08:21:49 PM
Saw that one. was it Ducky at the back ?  ???
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on May 09, 2007, 11:27:05 PM
Yes, it seems so.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 10, 2007, 12:10:22 AM
That's what I thought. Nice one of the two. Wonder if they share appearnces often ?  ???
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: gogm on May 12, 2007, 01:32:31 PM
I tried the link "www.photoarchiv.spb.ru" on two different browsers and got nothing. Is there another way to go about it?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 12, 2007, 03:07:30 PM
I tried the link "www.photoarchiv.spb.ru" on two different browsers and got nothing. Is there another way to go about it?

www.photoarchive.spb.ru  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on May 12, 2007, 06:25:00 PM
I just realized that on that archive you can make it English!!

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Angie_H on May 13, 2007, 12:46:22 PM
I just realized that on that archive you can make it English!!

-Duke of NJ
Yeah but how do you do searches? You type in a word and get 100s of results that have nothing to do with what you are searching for?!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: gogm on May 13, 2007, 02:57:55 PM
Same here. I also keyed in Cyrillic characters for Mariya Fyodorovna and got the same results, nothing that had anything to do with Mariya Fyodorovna :(.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 13, 2007, 05:05:47 PM
Same here. I also keyed in Cyrillic characters for Mariya Fyodorovna and got the same results, nothing that had anything to do with Mariya Fyodorovna :(.

i don't know if this will make much sense, but here goes:

whatever success i've had in finding anything has, generally, been by following the "branches" that pop-out from certain of the site's entries.   

scroll or click on "pre-1917" and 2 or 3 choices pop out from the one you choose.  then 2 or 3 pop out from that etc.  until it's narrowed-down to a specific area such as "Monuments of Architecture".

but whatever road you take to get there, plan on spending most of your time simply looking through thr results it gives you.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Angie_H on May 16, 2007, 07:52:11 AM
I went up to the "persons" search thing and went thru all the pages to find pics (over 400)
Took 3 days to get thru all of them!!!! In some instances you can't just click the back button. You have to start at the very beginning again  :P
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 16, 2007, 09:41:07 AM
In some instances you can't just click the back button. You have to start at the very beginning again  :P

Yes, it's the main problem of browsing the site >:(. I prefer to go to the "albums" search option. :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on May 16, 2007, 10:33:51 AM
In some instances you can't just click the back button. You have to start at the very beginning again  :P

Yes, it's the main problem of browsing the site >:(. I prefer to go to the "albums" search option. :)


i've been having some decent luck lately...  wherever you go on the site, and there are multiple pages of images, if you open the image you want to see in a different window (and keeping the previous page open), you can view the image then close that window & go back to the image list in the original window.    and if you continue consecutively (page 1, then page 2, then page 3, then page 4 etc) in one direction, things seem to work pretty well.    but y'all are correct, backing up generally means you have to start over again....

well, that's my tutorial for the day.   it's worked for me, so far  :-)     
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Angie_H on May 16, 2007, 11:40:02 AM
Well if you do the Person pages here are the pages with pics of the IF on them
281
335
336
337
338
339
348
412
464
You got keep hitting the page numbers on top or the arrow keys but if you accidentally hit an entry you gotta start at the beginning again
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jmjjmjjmj on August 01, 2007, 11:06:25 AM
I recently acquired in Paris a set of three original photographs of the Vladimirovichi in a folding leather display portfolio. The photographs can be dated to about 1885-6 because of the apparent age of their youngest child, G.D. Helena, who appears to be 3 or 4.

The photograph in the middle is of G.D. Vladimir and his wife. The one on the right is the Grand Duchess and her four children (the back was labeled in French with the names and titles and Vladimir spelled with a “W”).

The one on the left appears to have the three Vladimirovichi boys with two other male adults. The one in the white uniform looks to me like Tsar Alexander, though his beard is shorter than I have seen it otherwise. The other one I first guessed to be G.D. Pavel. However, the Hussar uniform he is wearing is not decorated with the cords that I have otherwise seen in pictures of G.D. Pavel. Also, the man in the photo has less hair on his forehead than I have seen in photos of Pavel.

The photos have an embossed old-style cyrillic word at the bottom, presumably the name of photographic studio. In transliterated Russian it appears to me to be: Levtuxii . Also, the leather portfolio has the following on the back: Tonnel, 12 rue de la Paix, Paris. I checked and there is no company of that name presently at the address mentioned.

The provenance of the photos is also somewhat of a mystery.

The dealer is reputable, someone I met originally on a previous trip to Paris eight years ago. He is almost 90 and of Russian origin, though he left Russia in the 1960s. He told me he purchased them around 1970 in Rome from a relative (variously granddaughter or niece) of the former governess of G.D. Olga, the dowager Queen of Greece who was a daughter of G.D. Konstantin Nikolaevich. He also gave me reason on at least one of my visits to conclude that they had originally belonged to the Olga herself.

The specifics differed slightly during the three times I visited him, but that can be understood given his age and health and the fact that his daughter was on one occasion prompting him to recite again the provenance.

One corroborating fact is that eight years ago he had for sale a large leather portfolio containing two oval glass-covered photographs of G.D. Pavel and his first wife, Alexandra of Greece, who was Queen Olga’s daughter. (I foolishly delayed my decision to purchase it for a month during which it sold to someone else). He told me that all his Russian imperial artifacts came from this one purchase).

All that being said, why would Queen Olga’s governess (or perhaps more likely Queen Olga herself) have had three photos of the Vladimirovichi? Perhaps it was normal for members of the Imperial Family to share photos back and forth.

Any help identifying/confirming my identification as well as speculation on their provenance would be very much appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975315042
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 01, 2007, 11:12:31 AM
The man at left looks very much like GD Friedrich Franz III of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, brother of GDss Maria Pavlovna.  The little boy at left is more likely GD Kirill, the other little boy is then GD Boris.
The man at right is a mystery though, but he and the man in the hussar uniform not the Romanovs definitely.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jmjjmjjmj on August 01, 2007, 11:38:33 AM
Thanks for your help.  It might make sense that the men are relatives of Maria Pavlovna.

Here are copies of the photographs:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212293/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212233/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975211991/

The photos in their casing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212195/

The writing on the back:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212055/

Has anyone ever come across these photos before?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 01, 2007, 12:32:53 PM
Thanks for your help.  It might make sense that the men are relatives of Maria Pavlovna.

Here are copies of the photographs:

 http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212293/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212233/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975211991/

The photos in their casing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212195/

The writing on the back:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975212055/

Has anyone ever come across these photos before?

Actually I've never seen the pics. Thanks for sharing! :) Little Elena is just lovely :D
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jmjjmjjmj on August 02, 2007, 02:57:29 AM
what can i say they were in a tinted shop window for probably about 35 years....
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jmjjmjjmj on August 02, 2007, 03:00:14 AM
Is it possible brown/sepia is the original color of the photos?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 02, 2007, 11:50:28 AM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10824665@N03/975315042

The second man at right is more likely Duke Paul Friedrich, another brother of GDss Maria Pavlovna.

Compare, this is Duke Paul Friedrich

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukePaulFriedrich.jpg)

I am not a great expert on the military uniforms but they look almost the same (I mean the uniforms in the photos and the men of course  :) )
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: jmjjmjjmj on August 02, 2007, 04:32:05 PM
Wow, Svetabel, you're the greatest.  I really appreciate your help.  Same for Grandduchessella.  It is wonderful to have a complete story for the photos.

I have no intention of selling these, but I am wondering if there is anywhere where one might find more about recent prices for original photos.  (I realize condition is a major question, but anything would help in guaging reasonableness.)

Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 02, 2007, 08:04:30 PM
Wow, Svetabel, you're the greatest.  I really appreciate your help.  Same for Grandduchessella.  It is wonderful to have a complete story for the photos.

I have no intention of selling these, but I am wondering if there is anywhere where one might find more about recent prices for original photos.  (I realize condition is a major question, but anything would help in guaging reasonableness.)

Thanks again for your help.

You could start out with Ebay, though I'm sure there are more specific sites that could help. Checking out some of the prices for various antique photos, not just royals, might give you an idea for your own items. It would be helpful to know, if only for insurance purposes.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 02, 2007, 08:05:54 PM
That really depend on subject matter. Some subjects are hot while some are not... ::)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 02, 2007, 08:07:01 PM
It can give him a general idea--that's why I said a place to start.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 02, 2007, 10:17:18 PM
Wow, Svetabel, you're the greatest. 

Thanks again for your help.

You are welcome. :) The photos you have are really rare, thanks for sharing again.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on August 03, 2007, 04:18:57 PM
That really depend on subject matter. Some subjects are hot while some are not... ::)

In case anyone's wondering, a single photo of the Vladimirs (entire family) that wasn't in tip-top shape (and had no royal provenance apparently) went for over $500. I'd get some insurance on those photos asap!  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2007, 11:47:48 AM
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Vladimirovichi.jpg)

There is a wonderful photo from the same sitting with only Vladimir and Miechen and their bulldog :)

Is the pic?

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdvladimirgdmaria.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 10, 2007, 12:33:40 PM

Is the pic?


Yes, this picture.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 11, 2007, 02:08:37 AM
Both seemed to put on some weigh...too much good food ?  ;D
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 11, 2007, 02:44:36 AM
Both seemed to put on some weigh...too much good food ?  ;D

Funny, you say that Eric, I was just thinking that the dog in the picture looked a little heavy ::) You know how they say that pets take after their owners ::)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 11, 2007, 08:51:27 AM
Hi,

Wasn't it a sign of prosperity and upper-class to be rotund?  Rubenesque?
At one time, if you were skinny or thin, you were thought to be poor.  Was this the case in late 19th century Europe still?

Larry
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 13, 2007, 07:39:28 PM
.

click on image for larger version


duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and
her brother, grand duke Friedrich Franz III as

Fanny & Bligny

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/fannyandbligny2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/fannyandbligny2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/fannyandbligny1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/fannyandbligny1.jpg)

.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 20, 2007, 11:51:35 PM

Elena Vladimirovna
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/elena4-2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/elena4-2.jpg)




Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on September 05, 2007, 02:11:07 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Grand%20Dukes/2505.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on October 13, 2007, 11:46:15 AM
GD Vladimir by unknown artist


(http://www.picatom.com/a/vlaunkwon-1-th.JPG) (http://www.picatom.com/a/vlaunkwon-1.html)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on November 20, 2007, 12:25:23 AM

.

click for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party_detail3.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party_detail3.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on November 20, 2007, 05:07:27 AM

.

click for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/party.jpg)


Wonderful image!

At the very left standing is GD Andrey Vladimirovich - he plays a Turk definitely. In front of Elena Vladimirovna is her husband Prince Nikolaos of Greece.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 20, 2007, 11:24:50 AM
who is the guy picking his nose?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2007, 07:31:38 PM
Don't know...But what a wonderful image !  ;) Wonder whose house was the party held ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 21, 2007, 09:07:25 AM
Don’t know, normally when parties are held in court, photos of the host or hostess sets (normally in the center) surrounded by their guests. it a possibility at one of the Imperial Dukes houses. The Vladimirs are very well known to be partiers.  ;)

I think the man in the blanket on the floor is Grand Duke Sergei Mikailovich. I also think also the man in the far back in a white hat (next to the painting) is Prince Christopher of Greece??????
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2007, 08:32:27 PM
Hard to confirm....the heads are so small and they are in costumes... ???
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on November 23, 2007, 07:14:43 AM
Don’t know, normally when parties are held in court, photos of the host or hostess sets (normally in the center) surrounded by their guests. it a possibility at one of the Imperial Dukes houses. The Vladimirs are very well known to be partiers.  ;)

I think the man in the blanket on the floor is Grand Duke Sergei Mikailovich.

I think he looks like GD Boris Vladimirovich, but I am not sure exactly.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on November 23, 2007, 07:51:04 AM
is it just me, or does the guy picking his nose look sorta like gd Paul Alelsandrovich?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on November 23, 2007, 08:59:08 AM
is it just me, or does the guy picking his nose look sorta like gd Paul Alelsandrovich?

No, I don't think that's Pavel. The guy looks more younger than Pavel was at that moment, also GD had been in exile then.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on November 23, 2007, 03:52:32 PM


.


gotcha :-)


.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on November 23, 2007, 04:48:01 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/elenav.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on November 25, 2007, 12:52:26 PM
I think this might have been part of her engagement series to either Max Baden or Nicholas. I seem to recall her in a similar dress for one of the photos.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2007, 08:14:41 AM
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Helen.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on November 27, 2007, 09:21:06 PM
I'm sure I got this from somewhere on the Forum so my apologies for not remembering the original poster:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/greece/Hel1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2007, 12:29:53 AM
Is that the portrait stillowned by her grandson Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia/Sebia  ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on November 28, 2007, 07:21:45 AM
Yes,the portrait is still owned by her grandson and it is the same portrait that GDElla posted although from different newspaper articles about the Paris home of Prince Alexander of Serbia and his wife Princess Barbara von und zu Liechtenstein.That is why the colours do not look the same in those two portraits!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on November 28, 2007, 07:22:36 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/helenabrooth.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2007, 08:40:19 PM
I think this was sold at Sotheby's.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on December 01, 2007, 11:58:03 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/granddukeboris1925.jpg)
Grand Duke Boris
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 02, 2007, 07:34:18 AM
GD Boris in 1888

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/Untitled-5.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on December 02, 2007, 02:11:10 PM
Nice one Svetabel  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on December 06, 2007, 01:59:49 AM
Not sure if this has been posted on this thread before...if it has let me know and I will take it off.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/granddukev.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on December 11, 2007, 02:22:03 PM
Grand Duke Andrew at Marie Feodorovna's funeral in 1928

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/romanov/88GDAndrewMFfuneral.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2007, 05:17:45 AM
Did you bought that from Ebay ?  :o
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on December 13, 2007, 12:07:10 AM
No, actually. How come you ask me and not the other posters who have posted from the same seller?  ??? I have bought several from this seller though--they used to have a larger selection for less money. The Kira photos have been on sale for awhile. I've bought a number of the Marie Pavlovna ones though, including some that have been posted here before by others.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 22, 2007, 06:02:27 AM
GDss Elena Vladimirovna and her dolls.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/devochka250.gif)

She looks lonely...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Teddy on December 22, 2007, 03:39:50 PM
Dear Svetabel,

You did it again. Were did you get these pictures from?

Gr. Gerjo
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 23, 2007, 06:36:11 AM
Dear Svetabel,

You did it again. Were did you get these pictures from?

Gr. Gerjo

The photo of Elena and her dolls is a cover of a new photoalbum just issued (in Russian). It's a rare photo-research of a woman's life in Russia in the end of the 19 cent- beginning of the 20 cent. A lof of text and many wonderful pictures from the State Archives as well as from the private collections.
I should say at once that there are no many photos of the Romanovs inside the book, some of them I had posted in various threads.
For those who are interested in Russian history (not only the Romanovs) and read Russian :


A little girl was born : Russian women in photos of the end of 19  - beginning of the 20 centuries.
the isbn 978-5-87417-247-3

aka in Russian - V semje rodilas devochka: Zhentschini Rossii v photographijah konza 19 - nachala 20 veka, publishing house "Liki Rossii",2007.

The edition is gorgeous, only 500 copies.


Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mari on January 08, 2008, 06:32:36 AM
What a touching photo!  GDss Elena Vladimirovna and her dolls.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2008, 11:37:20 PM
Dolls ?  ???
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2008, 12:21:03 AM
Dolls ?  ???

Look the previous page and probably you'll see a photo.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2008, 08:11:17 PM
Yes...on top. It reminded me of one of Olga with her dolls in the palace... ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on March 24, 2008, 02:51:53 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/2362543190094285158HjxeJu_ph.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 25, 2008, 01:05:20 AM
What a beautiful photo of Helen and Victoria. Thank you so much for posting it, Ashanti!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 10, 2008, 08:37:16 PM
awesome pix. :)  It a pity, six years ago, i saw that picture in a book at school and thought nothing of it, and had no clue how they were. At first i thought the girl was  Xenia (it was title Grand Duchess and Grand Duke) not Elena, whom i didn't learn about until  a year later! lol
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 16, 2008, 12:02:21 PM
Not a good quality but for me anyway a new one of Elena Vladimirovna


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/nf801-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 17, 2008, 09:27:56 PM
Yes, pity it small, but lovely, thanks!  :) ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 09, 2008, 02:09:46 PM
Not a good quality but for me anyway a new one of Elena Vladimirovna


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/nf801-2.jpg)

I have this one from a poscard (it also had individual photos of Boris, Miechen and Vladimir). I'll try to upload a better copy for you Svetabel.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on June 10, 2008, 01:12:56 AM
Not a good quality but for me anyway a new one of Elena Vladimirovna


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/nf801-2.jpg)

I have this one from a poscard (it also had individual photos of Boris, Miechen and Vladimir). I'll try to upload a better copy for you Svetabel.

Oh, thanks so much!  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on June 15, 2008, 01:29:10 PM
Not a good quality but for me anyway a new one of Elena Vladimirovna


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/nf801-2.jpg)

I have this one from a poscard (it also had individual photos of Boris, Miechen and Vladimir). I'll try to upload a better copy for you Svetabel.

Oh, thanks so much!  :)

I finally managed to ge it uploaded.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/lastscanGDssHelenV2w.jpg)

close-up

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/lastscanGDssHelenVwcopy.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: TampaBay on June 16, 2008, 07:34:20 AM
IMO I see a strong resemblance in Helen to her cousin and sister-in-law Ducky in the above pictures.

TampaBay
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Luc on June 30, 2008, 06:47:34 AM
Thank you again Grandduchessella ! :) Do you have also a photograph of Elena?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: gogm on June 30, 2008, 12:43:04 PM
This is a famous picture of the ladies at the coronation:

(http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/2877/2154064780094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2154064780094285158NLEFAH)

Svetabel advised:  Sitting on the floor: Princess Olga of Wuerttemberg. Sitting (left to right): GDss Alexandra Iosifovna, Duchess Louise of Connaught. Standing (left to right): Princess Elsa of Wuerttemberg, Duchess Vera of Wuerttemberg, GDss Anastasia of Mecklenbourg-Schwerin, GDss Maria Pvalovna-elder, GDss Elena Vladimirovna, GDss Elizaveta Mavrikievna, Princess Elena of Saxe-Altenburg. Back row: pages.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on June 30, 2008, 02:07:03 PM
Thank you again Grandduchessella ! :) Do you have also a photograph of Elena?

Not exactly the 1896 photo but the gown is similar and tiara is the same.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/_---.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on July 03, 2008, 04:00:58 PM
I also always find this strange about Helen and her marriage prospects...She was young,for me beautiful at that time and very,very wealthy...she schould be more ahead of the rest of European princesses,but she ended up in a love match with a Prince...

One more thing about Helen-she found herself in a love match,but reacted just like her mother when her daughter Olga wanted to marry Prince Paul of Yugoslavia,as she found that a descedant of the Demidov family is about to make aliance with an ''Imperial'' family which she didn't find plesing for her imperial dignity(just like her mother)...but after that his money ''made the way'' to her heart!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2008, 10:55:14 AM
I also think Elena was a very desirable bride. But why was Miechen so arrogant and filled with 'imperial dignity' ? I've never understood that  ??? She herself came only from Mecklenburg...

Actually GDss MP-elder considered herself and the Mecklenbourg  clan more Slavs than the Romanovs meaning her Pomeranian ancestors.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on July 06, 2008, 10:25:31 AM

24 May 1900
Iheard from Minnie about Maria Pavlovna's efforts to marry off her daughter Elena. After the failure with Max [of Baden], they are desperate to find another husband.


Anyway their engagement photos were lovely. :(

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/elena/8.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Teddy on July 11, 2008, 03:03:32 PM
A book about this branch of the Romanov family, would be very pleasant.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on July 14, 2008, 01:38:35 AM
A book about this branch of the Romanov family, would be very pleasant.

I'd say a LARGE book would be great as now there are only many articles and chapters (in the books on the Romanovs) about the Vladimirovitchi as well as a thin rare book on their palace in Saint-Petersbourg.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 22, 2008, 08:33:39 PM
If one could get the archievs in St.Petersburg to co-operate... ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on July 23, 2008, 01:14:01 AM
If one could get the archievs in St.Petersburg to co-operate... ;)

Ha, one must devote YEARS of the life to work in the archives.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 23, 2008, 09:14:28 AM
Not really...Charlotte Zeepvat had gotton stuff from the Russian archievs, but she told me that it operates like the cold war and things smuggle out...Russians books now are also beautifully illustrated as never before. I am hopeful at least.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on July 26, 2008, 11:52:59 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/borisportwm.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 01, 2008, 09:24:51 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdborispicwm.jpg)
GD Boris
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: TampaBay on August 02, 2008, 06:50:11 AM

Helana's tiara is one of the largest I have seen for a while. Must have been hell to wear it.


Well i would mind trying to wear it!!! LOL! LOL!

TampaBay
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 02, 2008, 01:40:27 PM
I don't think Ellen's tiara was real. It may be a prop from a ball.  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 05, 2008, 02:02:41 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/file.jpg)
Vova, Matilde and Grand Duke Andrei
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 07, 2008, 12:10:44 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/matildevovaandrei1.jpg)
Mathilde with Andrei and Vova

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/matildevovaandrei2.jpg)
Andrei with Mathilde and Vova
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 07, 2008, 11:33:59 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andrei1wm.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreimat1wm.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei and Mathilde

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreimat2wm.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei and Mathilde
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 07, 2008, 11:35:56 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreimat3-1.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei and Mathilde

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreivovamatwm.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei with Vova, Mathilde in the back

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreivovawm.jpg)
Andrei with Vova

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 07, 2008, 11:37:14 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/matandrei3wm.jpg)
Andrei and Mathilde

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/matandreiwm.jpg)
Andrei and Mathilde

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/matildevovaandreiwm.jpg)
Andrei and Mathilde
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Teddy on August 08, 2008, 03:38:35 AM
Are the photo's from a book?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 08, 2008, 07:33:22 AM
Are the photo's from a book?

They are from an on-line Russian Photoarchive.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on August 08, 2008, 09:08:55 AM
No they are not from a book. They are from a Russian photoarchive.

When I open a page, I snip the picture, kinda a cut and paste since for some reason Im unable to save them on my laptop and just watermark them. When I'm on my PC I'm able to save and post them as they appear on the photoarchive. It's amazing what you will find when you least expect it.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Luc on August 24, 2008, 09:10:40 AM
Any photos of Elena as child with kokochnik ??
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: TampaBay on November 02, 2008, 06:02:00 AM

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Matilde/andreivovamatwm.jpg)
Grand Duke Andrei with Vova, Mathilde in the back



Where was this photo taken?


TampaBay
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2008, 10:14:54 AM
The French Riveria I think...Maybe Cannes ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on November 05, 2008, 04:43:23 PM
Photo of Prince Vladimir:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/VA.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2008, 03:51:51 PM
He always looked sad and unfulfilled I wonder why ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on January 07, 2009, 03:34:21 PM
GDss Elena and her husband Prince Nicolaos of Greece

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/greeks1.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 02:40:05 AM
Wladimir and Miechen:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/MiechenandVladimir1.jpg)

Wladimir Miechen and family:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/2074540722_2706679bcd_o1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on January 18, 2009, 01:17:55 PM
One more of Helen,if not posted:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/helenvlad.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on January 18, 2009, 07:16:00 PM
I have that one from an old magazine article about her needlework society. It's a favorite. I love the tiara.  :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on January 18, 2009, 07:26:27 PM
The tiara reminds me of the one that Empress Alexandra wore in the photo of her in the Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K. Massie book, where she is wearing a a diamond and pearl tiara with hanging pearls, in a almost sideways pose- anyone know what photo I'm refering to?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2009, 08:58:04 AM
Yes. That tiara was part of the crown jewels.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on January 19, 2009, 09:00:16 AM
Is this a different tiara or the same one?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2009, 09:02:55 AM
Different.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 30, 2009, 11:04:37 AM
Well...It is doubtful with the what if ? However Miechen was as out of touch with the common people as Nicholas II...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2009, 09:35:20 AM
Yes...although it was the emerald placks (later sold to Barbara Hutton as a tiara) that was the central piece.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Valmont on February 04, 2009, 10:25:18 AM
Indeed.....
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2009, 10:39:28 AM
The emerald earrings went to Liz taylor later. I forgot which got the emeralds ? Ellen, Cyril, Boris or Andrei ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on February 04, 2009, 03:00:08 PM
The emeralds went to Boris. Here's something Martyn had written on the Duchess of Windsor's thread:

"Barbara Hutton's emeralds may have once belonged to Catherine the Great, but their more direct provenance was from the superb emerald parure of GDss Vladimir and was made for her by Cartier in 1947.  Interestingly , Wallis's tiara was also made by Cartier, but in 1949, but the difference in style of the two pieces could not be more marked.  Wallis's contemporary jewel fits very much with her style and personality; Geoffrey Munn asserts that Wallis did not care too much for head ornaments anyway.  Hutton's tiara, although it has a contemporary feel to it, is very much more in the tradition of grand jewellery and is a fit setting for the stones form Miechen's fabulous parure.  Interestingly, Liz Taylor also owns pieces set with stones from this parure; I think that she has the necklace and a brooch.........."
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2009, 03:41:45 PM
Yes...Gloria TNT's sale of jewels also included a pair of emerald earrings from Miechen's emerald collection.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 21, 2009, 09:22:21 AM
the family:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/Vladimirovichigroup1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 21, 2009, 09:23:28 AM
Helen:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/HelenVladimirovnaandpearls1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 22, 2009, 02:56:48 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/HelenVladimirovnatoenlarge1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2009, 03:00:37 PM
Helen wearing the Cartier tiara that was given to her daughter Olga.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on February 22, 2009, 08:31:24 PM
What Helen's Romanov cousins thought of her?Did they have the same opinion as of her mother or she just "wasn't that grand" to be the gossip center?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on February 22, 2009, 08:39:40 PM
Where is the tiara now? What happened to it?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 23, 2009, 01:43:11 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/HelenVladimirovnaofGreece1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on February 23, 2009, 02:06:40 AM
What Helen's Romanov cousins thought of her?Did they have the same opinion as of her mother or she just "wasn't that grand" to be the gossip center?

The children of  Alexander III (read - children of Empress MF) were not close to the Vladimirovitchi brood due the rivalry between their mothers. So they thought all offsprings of Vladimir and Maria Pavlovna were too arrogant and super-imperial in manners and views of life. GDss Xenia Alexandrovna considered Elena too much haughty and unfriendly (that's quite understandable with such imperial Maman as GDss Maria P.-elder).

The children of GD Pavel, I mean GDss Maria P.-younger and GD Dmitriy, seemed neutral to Elena, I've not read anywhere about any ill-feelings.

If speaking about children of GDss Maria Alexandrovna, Duchess of Coburg, then only Victroria Melita was more or less on  friendly terms with Elena (after all she loved her brother Kirill), though in later years (after the 1917 Revolution) they definitely drifted apart.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on February 23, 2009, 06:28:55 AM
Thank you Sveta..so it was like mother like daughter...I always thought that Elena was "her mother's daughter",but more or less on the ground...so,I was wrong ;)

I wondered about relations towards her because Emperor gave her a villa in Greece as a wedding present...was it due to her or due to Prince Nicholas mother of whom most cousins had respect and good opinion...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2009, 02:47:57 PM
I think Helen had a good relation with the Greeks. She was also very close to Missy & Ducky. I have a photo of Helen and Nicky Greece clowning around with Irene of Prussia...

I think that tiara is still in the family of Olga.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on February 24, 2009, 12:52:42 AM
Thank you Sveta..so it was like mother like daughter...I always thought that Elena was "her mother's daughter",but more or less on the ground...so,I was wrong ;)

I wondered about relations towards her because Emperor gave her a villa in Greece as a wedding present...was it due to her or due to Prince Nicholas mother of whom most cousins had respect and good opinion...

That's an interesting question. I guess Nicholas II simply understood that Elena had chose a poor Prince actually,and she used to live a grand style. Of course she was not a fourtune-less girl but a villa for herself and her future family was a necessary gift. After all there were not so many Palaces for the Greek Royal Family in Greece...The Palace in Athens and the Tatoi estate...A Romanov Grand Duchess must be settled properly - remember that for GDss Maria Pavlovna-younger her Aunt GDss Elizaveta built a Palace in Sweden.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on February 24, 2009, 02:04:18 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/Marinababy1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2009, 06:53:31 AM
Thank you Sveta..so it was like mother like daughter...I always thought that Elena was "her mother's daughter",but more or less on the ground...so,I was wrong ;)

I wondered about relations towards her because Emperor gave her a villa in Greece as a wedding present...was it due to her or due to Prince Nicholas mother of whom most cousins had respect and good opinion...

That's an interesting question. I guess Nicholas II simply understood that Elena had chose a poor Prince actually,and she used to live a grand style. Of course she was not a fourtune-less girl but a villa for herself and her future family was a necessary gift. After all there were not so many Palaces for the Greek Royal Family in Greece...The Palace in Athens and the Tatoi estate...A Romanov Grand Duchess must be settled properly - remember that for GDss Maria Pavlovna-younger her Aunt GDss Elizaveta built a Palace in Sweden.

I always thought the same thing but just didn't know for sure...saw some pictures with Nicholas and Vladimirovich family...and my impression was that Nicholas himself never felt anything similar to his wife and mother towards them...he seemed indifferent to those kind of things...was this just my impression or...?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on February 25, 2009, 12:37:36 AM

I always thought the same thing but just didn't know for sure...saw some pictures with Nicholas and Vladimirovich family...and my impression was that Nicholas himself never felt anything similar to his wife and mother towards them...he seemed indifferent to those kind of things...was this just my impression or...?

You know I also had the same impression in case with Nicholas (not with his siblings), I think that when Nicholas II somewhat drifted apart from his domineering mother he became more loyal to some relatives.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on February 25, 2009, 09:42:56 AM
Well,he just didn't seem to care to compete in "grandeur" with other relatives...unlike Vladimir whom I can imagine in some way doing it...although not like his wife,she was unstoppable in doing such things ;-)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2009, 03:01:53 PM
He didn't need to. He got it ! he gave nice things to his mistress who was a ballerina.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: grandduchessella on February 25, 2009, 04:48:11 PM
Whose mistress?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2009, 04:51:57 PM
Nicholas II's mistress Mathilde Kessinkska. Later wife of Grand Duke Andrei, sister-in-law to Helen.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashdean on March 08, 2009, 07:17:41 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/HelenVladimirovnatoenlarge1.jpg)
The diadem was later worn by her daughter Olga in the 1960's while the bow brooch was a wedding present to daughter Marina in 1934 but seems to have been sold after Marina's death.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 09, 2009, 01:33:07 PM
(http://i44.tinypic.com/b46s85.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2009, 03:40:29 PM
Ellen was a beautiful woman with wonderful bone structures. No wonder her daughters became such beauties.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: imperial angel on March 10, 2009, 04:18:40 PM
A funny story about Helen Vladmirovna of Russia-Greece and Prince Philip from Hessian Tapestry, page 358- I'm not sure of the year, but this was when Helen was older, after Marina married the Duke of Kent. At an evening party, Prince Philip, not sure how old he was at the time, but a young man, saw Helen's bare back in a evening gown and pressed an ice cold rim of a champagne glass against it as a prank. She was alarmed, but by the time she turned to see who it was who had done that, he had disapeared. So she accused everyone nearby and they vainly pleaded innocence- it says she was pretty outraged. As David Duff says '' In her young days, ladies' bare backs had been severely left alone at evening entertainments at Tsarskoe Selo''. This story was originally from Alexandra of Yugoslavia's memoirs.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2009, 01:37:38 PM
Once again, the Empress Alexandra had her difficulties. But I really like her. I think some people better can "walk in someone elses footsteps" because they already had the same (or sort off) experience in their own lives as the Empress Alexandra. In my personal life, I also had/have to fight again and again mentally against outsiders, because they don't take the oppurtunity to give me (or others) a chance to explain what I (they) really mean.

But let we stop her to talk about the Empress Alexandra alone, this thread is about the Vladimirs'. :) Also a very interesting family.

On that topic (the Vladimirs, and Alexandra in their context) the curious thing is that in 1915 Andrei Vladimirovich admitted in his diary that a talk he and his mother had had with Alexandra had led him to a greater understanding of her and that "she looks at things exactly as we do." He effectively admitted that they Vladimirs had disliked her on the basis of what they ASSUMED she thought rather than the reality, whereas in truth on matters politcial they found themsleves all in accord. That should be food for thought when it comes to discussion of who caused what.....

I have no feelings as to whether I like or dislike Alexandra. I am not sure I would have found her someone I wanted to meet; I can't help being impatient when people are perpetually ill (which may be unfair), and none of her preoccupations are really mine. Equally, I find her relationship with Nicholas most disastrous because they fed one another's prejudices, at least on the political front: but she was certainly not the initiator of this despite the views of her detractors. Outside the strict issue of autocracy, she was certainly not always wrong or inhumane at all; on religious issues she was broad-minded, and she had a deep humanity when faced with other's sufferings - not just in hospitals, but also specifically in her reaction to some of the actions of Nicholas's governors in relation to minorities. This is a side of her that is often forgotten. I do still find the historiographical mess around her very entertaining to unpick when provoked, and I find a lot of the people around her pretty unattractive or selfish. If Nicholas and Alexandra wore blinkers, so did their enemies. To me, it is just a queston of balance in history, and demonising some people (with certain obvious historical excepions who SHOULD be demonised and shall be nameless!) is less interetsing than trying to look at their point of view. No-one was a saint in all of this, and no-one got to say "I told you so!" because they all at various points sat cursing the Duma and blaming the Jews or the British or Alexandra or whoever else they hated that week for the problems in their country as they percieved them.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on April 19, 2009, 09:56:01 AM
GD Vladimir Alexandrovich
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/400/gdvladimir5.jpg)
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6414/gdvladimir6.jpg)
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/700/gdvladimir2.jpg)
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/3046/gdvladimir7.jpg)
(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/756/gdvladimirr3.jpg)
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6962/gdvladimir.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Bryan von reyes on May 10, 2009, 01:18:23 AM
Never did i get tired of reading articles about this remarkable lady. The way she carried herself was so Empress like let alone her Magnificent Collection of jewels which would easily outshone those of some Grand ducal and princely family during her time or perhaps some royal family like Greece or maybe Norway. i hope that her descendants though hated by most would inherit the throne of Russia. No other member of the former imperial family is qualified other than the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna who continously represent the Former Imperial Family with dignity and Honor. though the restoration of the monarchy in russia is least likely to happen i feel that she would be the perfect figure head when that time comes.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on May 11, 2009, 06:42:55 AM
GD Boris Vladimirovich
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8596/boria.jpg)

(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2009/boris3e.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 11, 2009, 04:05:23 PM
Me loves Boris *0*. Thanks for sharin Aglaya!!


Boris and Andrei (courtesy of Fabian from foros realeza)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/20aas21.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on May 13, 2009, 05:45:56 AM
GD Boris one more time
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8239/boris2b.jpg)

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9636/borish.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on May 16, 2009, 04:02:31 PM
GD Boris
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3096/borys3.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on May 16, 2009, 08:39:27 PM
Grand Duchess Maria and Elena.  This picture has been posted before, but this is a better quality version for those who enjoy these things. Click on the link for a larger copy:

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian%20Court%20Dress/th_MariePavlovnadaughterElena300dpi.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/katmaxoz/Russian%20Court%20Dress/?action=view&current=MariePavlovnadaughterElena300dpi.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 17, 2009, 03:39:06 PM
You´re welcome!

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/B9FM44.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on May 17, 2009, 11:47:36 PM
You´re welcome!

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/B9FM44.jpg

The other man with GD Vladimir and MP-elder is her brother Friedrich Franz. There are some photos from the same event (year) of them three and children of the couple somewhere in the Forums.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on May 25, 2009, 03:52:05 AM
GD Boris
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7522/borys.jpg)

Boris with GD Nikolas Nicholaevich [Nikolasha]
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/947/borysnikolasha.jpg)

Boris [in the centre] with his regiment ca. 1916
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/781/gdboriswithhisregiment1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 28, 2009, 03:20:36 PM
The whole family

(http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4373/00119591.jpg) (http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00119591.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: PAVLOV on June 04, 2009, 10:38:01 AM
I think that what affected Grand Duchess Marie most of all after her exile, was her loss of position. I dont think that she lived in poverty like many others. If one Googles Contrexeville, her villa in France, you will see that she must have lived very well. It is now a hotel.   
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Valmont on June 05, 2009, 07:06:15 PM
Well, she did manage to smuggle her vast collection of jewells out of Russia via a diplomatic bag (I'm working from memory here), and she finally left Russia on February, 1920 and died on September that same year. Maybe you are right, for her, rank was everything and although she was a Grand Duchess by her own right, by the time she left Russia, the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin was no longer either

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 20, 2009, 03:03:12 PM
Grand Duke Andrey
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/40492703.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on June 21, 2009, 07:21:04 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/frinhelena1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 21, 2009, 10:49:24 AM
This family portrait cracks me up every time i see it!

Miechen and Kids. I love Boris behavior in this pic!


(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/Miechenwithchildren.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on July 03, 2009, 06:14:46 AM
Grand Duchess Helene in traditional russian dresss

(http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/44375/2097170880102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2097170880102753164VoSPSZ)

(http://inlinethumb62.webshots.com/22077/2574964270102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2574964270102753164PbRhOP)

getting married in 1902 to Prince Nicholas of Greece

(http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/42208/2646322150102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2646322150102753164hYWhQh)

(http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/42615/2327022800102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2327022800102753164QkTcis)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on July 04, 2009, 12:45:33 AM
Grand Duchess Helene in traditional russian dresss



In the traditional COURT dress, The Russian dress looks differently.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on July 04, 2009, 06:47:27 AM
Grand Duchess Helene in traditional russian dresss



In the traditional COURT dress, The Russian dress looks differently.

Well, the court version of it anyway I guess.  They never really were quite as interesting as the peasant version, but you wouldn't see a head-dress like that out outside the Russian court. The Traditional court dress was a different beast (see the marriage dress as top end example)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on July 06, 2009, 10:52:23 PM
 (http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/krill-1.jpg)
Grand duke Krill
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 01, 2009, 03:11:32 PM
GD Boris

(http://i32.tinypic.com/ejhiev.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 02, 2009, 11:56:01 AM
Elena Vladimirovna

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/th_img306.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/img306.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 11, 2009, 09:25:57 AM
katmaxoz - What a wonderful image! i  love all the costumes from 1903.

Young Grand Duke Vladimir
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs/th_MES11263.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs/MES11263.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Alexandre64 on August 17, 2009, 01:10:13 AM
(http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww139/Romanov_06/histoire/1princess20nicholas20ofzl51.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on September 01, 2009, 08:53:37 AM
GD Vladimir.
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/2359/58612248.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on September 17, 2009, 07:42:17 AM

I don't recall seeing this one here...

The Vladimir family 1899

(http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/43378/2433666350102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2433666350102753164KgYLQX)

Left to right: Grand Duke Andrei, Grand Duke Vladimir (seated), Grand Duchess Elena, Grand Duke Cyril, Grand Duke Boris, Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna.

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on September 17, 2009, 05:44:22 PM
Miechen with baby Kiril
(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5405/dsc09357f.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 18, 2009, 08:54:13 AM

Boris Vladimirovich visiting King Carol of Romania.

(http://i30.tinypic.com/r9ogw4.jpg)

From left to right : Marie of Romania, Vladimir Vladimirovich (Not sure) King Carol, Alfred Jr, Unknow lady, Carmen Sylva, Boris Vladimirovich and Ferdinand of Romania.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on September 19, 2009, 01:14:58 AM


From left to right : Marie of Romania, Vladimir Vladimirovich (Not sure) King Carol, Alfred Jr, Unknow lady, Carmen Sylva, Boris Vladimirovich and Ferdinand of Romania.

Marie of Romania, Prince Leopold of Bavaria, King Carol, Alfred-jr, Princess Gisela of Bavaria, Carmen Sylva, GD Boris and Crownprince Ferdinand.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 19, 2009, 09:47:32 AM
Thank you!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2009, 09:01:01 PM
Wondered about the date on that photo.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 23, 2009, 09:08:08 PM
October of 1896

http://royalromania.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/prince-alfred-of-saxe-coburg/
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on September 25, 2009, 04:44:20 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/Capture1-2-2.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 25, 2009, 05:08:22 PM
How nice picture of Vladimir and Kyrill!! someone posted another one of this same session but with Miechen  a few days ago *0*
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Yseult on October 30, 2009, 11:21:45 AM
A picture of the Vladimirovitchi children ;)
Helen is very cute!

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/Vladimirovichchildren.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2009, 03:02:12 PM
Actually I think Helene and Xenia looked quite alike in looks. They were cousins.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: PAVLOV on November 27, 2009, 05:22:26 AM
Grand Duke Vladimir was supposedly a very wealthy man. The wealthiest son of Alexander II. Although the Vladimir Palace is very grand, and the jewellery collection rivalled that of the Empress, I am surprised that they did not own any really grand country houses, or other palaces..
If one compares the Konstantinovichi who owned the big palace at Strelna, the Marble Palace in St Petersburg and Pavlovsk, besides other estates, this family look relatively poor. ( judging by the property they owned )

Does anyone know what other properties they owned ?

Did they own Ropsha ?     
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashdean on November 27, 2009, 08:21:17 AM
Grand Duke Vladimir was supposedly a very wealthy man. The wealthiest son of Alexander II. Although the Vladimir Palace is very grand, and the jewellery collection rivalled that of the Empress, I am surprised that they did not own any really grand country houses, or other palaces..
If one compares the Konstantinovichi who owned the big palace at Strelna, the Marble Palace in St Petersburg and Pavlovsk, besides other estates, this family look relatively poor. ( judging by the property they owned )

Does anyone know what other properties they owned ?

Did they own Ropsha ?     
They were no doubt richer because they did NOT own grand estates with all the mammoth expenses involved in maintaining them!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on November 28, 2009, 01:50:42 PM
Grand Duke Vladimir was supposedly a very wealthy man. The wealthiest son of Alexander II. Although the Vladimir Palace is very grand, and the jewellery collection rivalled that of the Empress, I am surprised that they did not own any really grand country houses, or other palaces..
If one compares the Konstantinovichi who owned the big palace at Strelna, the Marble Palace in St Petersburg and Pavlovsk, besides other estates, this family look relatively poor. ( judging by the property they owned )

Does anyone know what other properties they owned ?

Did they own Ropsha ?     

They owned a palace in Tsarskoe Selo. Also each of Vladimir's sons had his own Palace (not that grand style as the family nest on Dvortzvoya Quay) or a mansion.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2009, 02:00:46 PM
Does Ellen has a palace of her own in Russia ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 28, 2009, 04:15:43 PM
I don't think so, the only palace I can think of that she owned was the Nicholas Palace with her husband.

When she came to Russia with her family, she most likely stayed with her mother.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2009, 01:03:03 PM
Indeed. If she wanted, Ellen could have bought herself a house in St. Petersburg or Moscow, but chose not to. It is at Miechen's palace that she clashed with Miss Fox...
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on December 07, 2009, 02:40:02 PM
Grand Duke Alexander & GD Vladimir and cousins Nicholas Maximilianovich and Sergei Maximilianovich of Leuchtenberg

(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/45643/2769919830105766438S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2769919830105766438AwjqPI)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 07, 2009, 02:52:00 PM
i love that photoshoot with Vladimir doing a "WAZAAAAAAAP" xDD

(http://i47.tinypic.com/118pquu.jpg)



Here the another from that session

(http://i48.tinypic.com/axb41s.jpg)


And other group pic

 (http://i50.tinypic.com/nxrvgy.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on December 07, 2009, 03:00:23 PM
Yes, the "WAZAAAAAAAP" is something you would not expect from a Grand Duke lol  I think there are a few more shots from this session. Can't remember off hand but thanks for posting them Katenka

 
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 07, 2009, 03:36:53 PM
I don't think the "What’s up" wasn't even invented yet, lol. A grand Duke made it up first and possibly didn’t even think of its later meaning! Lol
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 08, 2009, 05:22:26 AM
Grand Duke Alexander & GD Vladimir and cousins Nicholas Maximilianovich and Sergei Maximilianovich of Leuchtenberg



A little correction. There's no Sergei M. in the picture, that's Prince Albert of Saxe-Altenburg.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2009, 04:08:20 PM
Thanks for the correction ! He must be related to Marvra...her brother ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 08, 2009, 04:57:42 PM
Not her brother, but a cousin. Albert was the husband of  Duchess Helene of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, the daughter of Grand Duchess Catherine Mikhailovna of Russia
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2009, 06:02:36 PM
Thanks ! He seemed to be very close to the sons of Alexander II.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 08, 2009, 07:04:07 PM
no prob. :)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2009, 09:36:02 PM
Is it because of his relationship by his wife ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 09, 2009, 12:36:32 AM
Is it because of his relationship by his wife ?

He married Elena of Mecklenburg-Strelitz only in 1891. The photos are from the 1860s. He was Alexandra Iosifovna's relative,pennilless and without any special talents, that's why he went to Russia to seek wealth.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 09, 2009, 01:35:11 PM
By how did he became close to the imperial brothers ? It seems that they knew him well.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on December 10, 2009, 01:56:58 AM
By how did he became close to the imperial brothers ? It seems that they knew him well.

I had said in my previous post that he came to Russian to seek wealth. He was a relative of GDss Alexandra Iosifovna, who of course protected him. He was amiable enough to get friendship of the Russian Grand Dukes and Princes.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on February 06, 2010, 10:46:37 PM
Thanks to Burger queen who posted the link to a documentry about the Vladimirovitchi branch on this thread http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=14581.0 , I was about to get a few screen shots of Grand Duke Vladimir. Good video by the way several rare photos shown.
 
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Vladimir/snapper1265405527629.png)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Vladimir/snapper1265405545724.png)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on February 22, 2010, 01:25:45 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Helena/gdhelenav-2.jpg)
Grand Duchess Helena
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on February 22, 2010, 01:30:20 AM
Grand Duke Vladimir
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Vladimir/1885gdvld.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: KarlandZita on March 21, 2010, 01:01:55 PM
Grand Duke Boris :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Others%20Romanov/borisru.jpg)

Andrei :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Others%20Romanov/andrewladimirovitch.jpg)

Cyrill :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Others%20Romanov/gdcyril.jpg)

Sorry if already posted.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 21, 2010, 01:14:41 PM
the first one is repeated but the one of Andrei is sure new for me. Thanks for posting it!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 23, 2010, 01:44:03 PM
Gd Vladimir

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2hhq5ia.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2010, 08:39:52 AM
Are those hunting or walking clothes ?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: richard_1990 on June 02, 2010, 03:15:01 AM
Something that's always amazed me is some peoples criticism that the Vladimirovitchi were power hungry - as evidenced by Grand Duke Cyrill's behavior during the revolution. Wouldn't it be sufficient to say that the entire Romanov dynasty since it's establishment had an enormous lust for power. Look at all the legitimate rulers that were disposed by a family rival, or in the case of Catherine the Great their own wife. To me this is shortfall of the autocratic system, rather than a fault that the Vladimirovitchi alone possessed.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet Ashton on June 02, 2010, 07:28:33 AM
Something that's always amazed me is some peoples criticism that the Vladimirovitchi were power hungry - as evidenced by Grand Duke Cyrill's behavior during the revolution. Wouldn't it be sufficient to say that the entire Romanov dynasty since it's establishment had an enormous lust for power. Look at all the legitimate rulers that were disposed by a family rival, or in the case of Catherine the Great their own wife. To me this is shortfall of the autocratic system, rather than a fault that the Vladimirovitchi alone possessed.

After Catherine's day, though, the family were raised to be tenaciously loyal to the Tsar in order to end the sort of palace revolution taht went on in her century - hence the oath each Grand Duke took at 16, etc. They were supposed to deploy their talents in the servcie of the Emperor, not against him - and in fact, faced with supreme power, many Grand Dukes balked at it (look at Konstantin Pavlvich, for instance).  Others did whatever was required of them to the best of whatever ability they had an amused themslves the rest of the time. The most talented and dutiful of the Grand Dukes used their brains wholly in service of the throne - and the outstanding exaple of course is Konstantin Nikolaevich, my favouite.
 :-) In his lifetime there were all manner of silly stories about his supposed lust of power, but not one of them was true.
It's a moot point as to whether Kiril's actions in 1917 were due to a lust for power or an attempt to save the throne, but his conduct to that point had hardly been that of a talented servant of the throne (even his mother was disapponted in all three of her sons), and this is the crux of peopels' criticusms of him, I think - he failed to act until he was in a position where personal power might seem to be the motive.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 02, 2010, 10:21:10 AM
I think their openly stressed opinion on how close they were to the succession did not help matters. Both Minny & Alicky were united in their dislike of Miechen.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 09, 2010, 02:22:54 PM
Vladimir and Prince Waldemar of Denmark.

(http://i47.tinypic.com/t9uqti.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on June 09, 2010, 02:47:10 PM
Oh that is a wonderful photo! Where did you find it?
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 09, 2010, 03:04:45 PM
A russian Journal, No further source given. Maybe the GARF?

Here s another with Thyra

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2lj2ir4.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on June 10, 2010, 07:57:42 AM
Oh that is a wonderful photo! Where did you find it?

Not a rare photo,at least can be seen in almost all Russian bios of Empress MF. The source is GARF I think.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2010, 09:44:20 AM
I got aRussian book on MF, and it is not there. Guess it is not that "common".
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Marc on June 10, 2010, 11:36:24 AM
http://royalromania.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/faberge-diamond-platinum-imperial-presentation-pendant-provenance-grand-dss-maria-pavlovna_web.jpg?w=312&h=390
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 10, 2010, 12:03:35 PM
Faces of Vladimir

(http://i48.tinypic.com/rsqx6e.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet Ashton on June 10, 2010, 01:19:57 PM
Faces of Vladimir




Has anyone else noticed that Vladimir as a young man resembled his nephew Dmitri Pavlovich to an extraordinary degree?

- Somehow there were two "types" among Alexander II's children: the delicate-featured ones (Nikolai, Paul and Serge - though Nikolai did not resemble his brothers particularly) and the coarser-looking Alexnader III, Marie and Alexei. Vladimir came in the middle; you can see his resemblance to both Paul and Alexander. The best-looking of them, I think he was, at least as a youth.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2010, 01:22:15 PM
No...I think Boris looked most like him. Dimitri was not as heavy set as Vladimir (more like his father Paul or Uncle Serge).
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 10, 2010, 01:26:24 PM
I can see the resemblance. Jane, in special in the eyes!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 11, 2010, 08:46:29 AM
Vladimir's daughter Helen also resembled him. That is the reason why there is also a resemblence between Helen and Xenia. ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Janet Ashton on June 11, 2010, 05:31:17 PM
No...I think Boris looked most like him. Dimitri was not as heavy set as Vladimir (more like his father Paul or Uncle Serge).

I was thinking of his features rather than his build - the eye and profile (the profile of Nicholas I). I can't see any resemblance at all between Serge and Dmitri.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 12, 2010, 08:07:24 AM
Hmmm...I get your point. More like bone structure. Vladimir's face filled up quickly just like Alexander III.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 04, 2010, 08:28:37 AM
Gd Boris

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2efjqzk.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 05, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
Gd Vladimir

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2hd8q6x.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Veronica on July 05, 2010, 12:28:12 PM
This last one must have been taken in Paris, since it's from Atelier Nadar.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2010, 03:01:02 PM
I am sure he goes to Paris a lot.  ;)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: ashanti01 on July 19, 2010, 11:57:40 PM
Grand Duchess Helena
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Helena/helenapostcard-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 06, 2010, 07:45:58 AM
Elena in the beginning of 1900s

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/elena1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2010, 08:11:08 AM
She looked very lovely and lonely. I think she is quite beautiful & resembled her brother Boris most closely in features.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on August 14, 2010, 02:52:51 PM
GD Andrei Vladimirovich on the car exibition
(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5797/andrei1samochwyst.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on August 22, 2010, 09:39:06 AM
GD Elena Vladimirovna
(http://static.diary.ru/userdir/1/5/9/4/1594069/56587845.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 22, 2010, 09:48:35 AM
I love that one!!

Here s another from the same  session

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/HELENA%20VLAD/Helencostume.jpg)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2010, 11:57:06 AM
I wonder what the play was about ? :-)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Olgasha on August 22, 2010, 03:35:22 PM
Anyway she looks like a maid or something like that in her costume.;)

Vladimirovichi: Kiryl, Boris, Andrei and Elene, with Kiryl's wife Victoria Melita
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4008/fiscadoro.17/0_1fb83_a3754869_orig.jpg)
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 22, 2010, 10:53:04 PM
I love that one!!

Here s another from the same  session




I had posted the photo here:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=181.195 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=181.195)

in smaller version though. Is your  version from e-bay? or someone else found the same old Soviet magazine? )))
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 23, 2010, 07:03:47 AM
i dont know. Minnie posted it on Dinastias. Maybe she enlarged it with some programs as photofiltre.

Gd Boris and wife Zenaida

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2743/lpi86.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/lpi86.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on August 31, 2010, 02:13:24 AM
a new one of Helen found on eBay..

(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/46852/2921379280102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2921379280102753164KTyQCx)

Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2010, 03:05:16 AM
a new one of Helen found on eBay..




She looks almost like he rmother. Stunning resemblance!
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on August 31, 2010, 05:28:08 AM
a new one of Helen found on eBay..




She looks almost like he rmother. Stunning resemblance!

yes, it's a wonderful image and I'm sure will cost a small fortune to buy.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 31, 2010, 07:39:59 AM
Actually, the bid is in 78.54 dollars
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: katmaxoz on August 31, 2010, 08:45:02 AM
Actually, the bid is in 78.54 dollars

I can guarantee it won't stay at that price and it hasn't hit the reserve yet. I've seen similar images go for US$500, so they are really only for those with deep pockets unfortunately.
Title: Re: The Vladimirovitchi - discussion and pictures Part 1
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 31, 2010, 08:55:51 AM
I hope some museum buy it. Honestly. seeing so many sh***y royal items on ebay im not buying them anymore. Just old CDVS to reliable sellers and Post mortems. They worth all the money in the world *0*