Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Helen_Azar on September 23, 2015, 12:42:57 PM

Title: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 23, 2015, 12:42:57 PM
Apparently they plan on exhuming the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra to do additional DNA studies to compare their DNA with the DNA of Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna and Tsar Alexander II!  http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-remains-investigation-to-reopen/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Richard P on September 23, 2015, 01:41:42 PM
Please find attached link from the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34338802

Does anyone know what the documents that are mentioned below are concerning?

Documents from the so-called "White Guards Investigation" concerning the 1918 murder will also be studied. They came to light in the past four years.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 23, 2015, 01:48:29 PM
Sokolov investigation box.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on September 23, 2015, 05:32:49 PM
It will be interesting to see the outcome of all this.  

As Edubs said, perhaps it will result in the crimes of July 17th, 1918 being labeled as "murders", as they should be.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on September 23, 2015, 08:04:03 PM
The investigation is clearly designed to settle the identity of the remains presently identified as those of Alexei and Maria in the shortest time possible.  Samples will be taken from skeletal material identified as that of Alexei, Maria, Nicholas II and Alexandra, from the blood-stained uniform of Nicholas's grandfather Alexander II, and from the body of Alexandra's sister Elizabeth.

This suggests that mitochondrial DNA will be compared between Alexandra, Elizabeth, Alexei and Maria, and identities will be confirmed if they share the same type of mtDNA. It also suggests that Y-DNA will be extracted from Alexander II, Nicholas II and Alexei, and identities will be confirmed if they share the same Y-DNA signature.

Results of previous DNA tests published in Western journals had concluded that Nicholas and Alexei shared their Y-DNA signature, while Alexandra shared her mtDNA signature with Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia. The new tests are presumably designed to strengthen the evidence that the family members are indeed related to more distant relatives, like Alexander II and Elizabeth. Such evidence was included in the previously published results, but the external comparisons were made with individuals who lived outside Russia, so that the Russian authorities had no way of checking these.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Richard P on September 24, 2015, 02:07:35 AM
Helen

Many thanks for clarifying.Does that mean that the RO Church will now allow a scientific analysis of some of the material in Church of Job in Brussels? I always thought that their stance was that they would not allow this.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: sunbeam on September 24, 2015, 04:13:00 AM
I so hope the issue will finally be resolved and the remains of Alexei and his sister will be laid to rest and the family reunited at last!

I wonder though - the BBC article speaks of "Maria" - NOT "Maria or Anastasia". To my knowledge the question of the identification of the remains of Maria or Anastasia had not been settled but perhaps I missed out on more recent information?

Also the article talks about the possible future canonisation of Alexei and Maria. Would this be a canonisation as saints? The imperial family as a whole are already canonised as passion bearers.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Georgiy on September 24, 2015, 04:58:12 AM
Passion-bearers ARE Saints in the Orthodox Church. It just describes what kind of Saint they are (Passion-bearers as opposed to say Confessors)
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Georgiy on September 24, 2015, 05:01:29 AM
Should add that the entire family are Saints in the Orthodox Church. The BBC must have got something confused.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Annette on September 24, 2015, 06:00:53 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11887138/Russia-exhumes-remains-of-last-emperor-Nicholas-II-and-empress-Alexandra.html
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria Sisi on September 24, 2015, 11:34:17 AM
I so hope the issue will finally be resolved and the remains of Alexei and his sister will be laid to rest and the family reunited at last!

I wonder though - the BBC article speaks of "Maria" - NOT "Maria or Anastasia". To my knowledge the question of the identification of the remains of Maria or Anastasia had not been settled but perhaps I missed out on more recent information?

Also the article talks about the possible future canonisation of Alexei and Maria. Would this be a canonisation as saints? The imperial family as a whole are already canonised as passion bearers.

Well its not just the BBC. Earlier in the month when it was announced the last remains would be reburied every article and news program I saw, English or Russian, stated Alexei and Maria. All the pictures that accompanied them showed Maria's picture as well.  I didn't read one article that even brought up the question if they were Maria's or Anastasia's. I guess its accepted now that they belong to Maria.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 24, 2015, 11:38:23 AM
ROC never accepted the original set of 9 remains as authentic... So they were not buried as saints. Once all this nonsense is over and all the remains are recognized as authentic, hopefully they will all be re-interred as saints, including the two kids whose remains are sitting in archives. There is more than enough scientific evidence that all the remains are genuine, but ROC still refuses to accept this, for whatever reason of their own. I just hope they get the correct remains of GD Ella this time, and also that Alexander II's blood sample is not contaminated after all these years, otherwise we will see a lot more of the same nonsense...  This has gone on way too long and they need to get it all resolved ASAP...  
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 24, 2015, 11:40:17 AM
Although I am not 100% convinced, as there is really no way to tell for sure whose remains they are without a confirmed DNA sample, it seems that it has been widely accepted that Maria is the one, not Anastasia. It doesn't matter that much as far as I am concerned, as long as both girls' remains are accounted for, and they are.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on September 24, 2015, 07:51:38 PM
... I just hope they get the correct remains of GD Ella...  

Which begs the questions: Is this really Ella's body?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zSZqLv0smAxVpYKNjxEzsb_VjaSTAYV5HHFGB_6tdCQ=w161-h201-p-no)

There was the controversial testing done at Stanford University in 2004 with an alleged finger of Ella that was obtained by Bishop Anthony Grabbe during the opening of her coffin in Jerusalem in 1982. The DNA did not match. The Stanford team concluded the remains of the Imperial Family were not authentic. The counter-argument is that the finger isn't really from Ella. 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Georgiy on September 25, 2015, 05:52:35 AM
Helen, a body doesn't need to be extant for the person to be a Saint.  That is why those articles seem strange to me - they already are Saints, there are icons of them. Bad reporting which has been copy-pasted in several newspapers by the look of it.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on September 25, 2015, 06:28:26 AM
I agree with Helen. The entire family is accounted for, including all four girls. Though it would be nice to know definitively which of the two youngest girls is which, it is not essential.

I wonder whether part of the reason for the exhumation is the advance in DNA techniques since the original testing was done. However, the original testing did establish that these really were the remains of the Imperial Family, so further testing is not essential. The remains of Alexei and the 'missing girl' were only tested recently, so that point doesn't apply to them.

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria Sisi on September 25, 2015, 10:12:29 AM
I just hope they get the correct remains of GD Ella this time, and also that Alexander II's blood sample is not contaminated after all these years, otherwise we will see a lot more of the same nonsense...  This has gone on way too long and they need to get it all resolved ASAP...  

Sorry for being clueless but can you elaborate on this? What happened to Ella's remains? I thought the victims of Alapayevsk were recovered soon after the whites took the town and identified? What happened between then, the journey to the far east, China and Jerusalem or after?

Also what blood sample of Alexander II are you talking about? Are you talking about the bloody tunic from his assassination? Because if you are then I understand. Otherwise is there another sample stored somewhere?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on September 25, 2015, 04:03:45 PM
How long will it all take  sheesh      seems they aren't gonna make the 18th deadline
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on September 28, 2015, 11:36:00 AM
Quote
Remains of Grand Duchess Elizaveta Feodorovna may be included in royal family inquiry - Russian Investigative Committee

Moscow, September 28, Interfax - The Russian Investigative Committee does not rule out that samples of the remains of Grand Duchess Elizaveta Feodorovna may be delivered from Israel to Moscow for a new examination within the royal family inquiry but a final decision has yet to be made.

"We are holding negotiations with the Russian Orthodox Church. This is a very complicated matter: international relations and the delivery from a foreign country. A final decision has yet to be made," senior investigator of the Russian Investigative Committee main criminal investigation department Vladimir Solovyov told Interfax.

Future Great Duchess Elizabeth, the one of British Queen Victoria's favorite granddaughters, was born in Germany and spent her early years in England. She was a sister of Empress Alexandra Feodorovna and a daughter of Grand Duke of Giessen Darmstadt. She was brought up in Christian spirit and compassion.

She was a Protestant, but during her pilgrimage to the Holy Land she adopted Orthodoxy and after her husband Moscow general-governor Sergey Alexandrovich Romanov had been killed by the terrorist, she founded famous Sts Martha and Mary Convent in 1909 where nuns combined prayer with active social ministry, helping the sick and wounded, especially during World War I. People called Grand Duchess Elizabeth the White Angel of Russia.

She refused to leave Russia during revolutionary days and was arrested in spring of 1918 and martyred in a duffer Novay Selimskaya not far from Alapayevsk, the Yekaterinburg Region. Elizaveta Feodorovna was canonized as saint by the Russian Orthodox Church.

Source: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12361 (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12361)

I do hope that samples are obtained. This would resolve the confusion caused by the Stanford testing in 2004 of a finger allegedly belonging to Ella that didn't match the DNA of Alexandra.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 29, 2015, 12:04:23 PM
... I just hope they get the correct remains of GD Ella...  

Which begs the questions: Is this really Ella's body?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zSZqLv0smAxVpYKNjxEzsb_VjaSTAYV5HHFGB_6tdCQ=w161-h201-p-no)

There was the controversial testing done at Stanford University in 2004 with an alleged finger of Ella that was obtained by Bishop Anthony Grabbe during the opening of her coffin in Jerusalem in 1982. The DNA did not match. The Stanford team concluded the remains of the Imperial Family were not authentic. The counter-argument is that the finger isn't really from Ella. 

Yes, that finger was definitely NOT Ella's.  Margarita Nelipa and I wrote an article about that study back in 2005, and we talk about the finger extensively.   It was a completely incompetent work. https://www.academia.edu/7316582/_Claims_That_the_Remains_of_the_Russian_Imperial_Family_Are_Still_Missing_Or_Are_They_Sorting_Out_the_Facts_from_the_Fiction._Helen_Azar_and_Margarita_Nelipa
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 29, 2015, 12:19:27 PM
Helen and Margarita are/were correct. The mtDNA of Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Empress Alexandra would be identical to that of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. No matter how much digging up or new testing that is done, this will not change.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on September 29, 2015, 04:16:26 PM
... I just hope they get the correct remains of GD Ella...  

Which begs the questions: Is this really Ella's body?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zSZqLv0smAxVpYKNjxEzsb_VjaSTAYV5HHFGB_6tdCQ=w161-h201-p-no)

There was the controversial testing done at Stanford University in 2004 with an alleged finger of Ella that was obtained by Bishop Anthony Grabbe during the opening of her coffin in Jerusalem in 1982. The DNA did not match. The Stanford team concluded the remains of the Imperial Family were not authentic. The counter-argument is that the finger isn't really from Ella.  

Yes, that finger was definitely NOT Ella's.  Margarita Nelipa and I wrote an article about that study back in 2005, and we talk about the finger extensively.   It was a completely incompetent work. https://www.academia.edu/7316582/_Claims_That_the_Remains_of_the_Russian_Imperial_Family_Are_Still_Missing_Or_Are_They_Sorting_Out_the_Facts_from_the_Fiction._Helen_Azar_and_Margarita_Nelipa

Yes, that article by the two of you was a solid refutation of the shoddy "science" of the Stanford team.

And yes, the finger is compromised as a source of uncontaminated DNA for such studies.

However, not everyone would go so far as to declare that it is not Grand Duchess Elizabeth's.

In his own article refuting the Stanford study, Dr. Parson, in the second paragraph, declares that he does not doubt that it is hers, but that it had been handled too much.
He also notes that even in the Stanford tests some strings of the finger's DNA did match Prince Philip's.
http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/no-reason-to-doubt-the-romanov-dna-testing

For our part, we have known the Grabbes for decades. Fr. George Grabbe, subsequently Bishop Gregory, was the Chancellor / Secretary of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for many, many years.
His son, Archimandrite Anthony, subsequently Bishop Anthony (the one in question here), was Head of the ROCA's Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem for many years and responsible for the convent where St. Elizabeth's remains were kept.
He personally opened the coffins of her and Sister Barbara at the time of their glorification, when their relics were transferred from the crypt to the main church. It was he who removed the finger, and other relics, and brought them to NYC.
So the "chain of custody" is pretty straightforward in this case. We ourselves saw her finger in his care in NY not long before he died.

It's also important to remember that long before DNA studies were even heard of, people had no idea that they were somehow 'contaminating' a specimen, or compromising it for a future, still uninvented scientific process.

That is one reason why the Otsu kerchief did not yield any useful results -- too much handling by too many people in the course of many years.

But who would've thought?!
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 29, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
I don't have any proof, but my theory is that they mixed up the bodies of Ella and Varvara... They were the only two females in that mine, and they reportedly identified Ella's body by the icon around her neck, but it is very possible that Ella may have given that icon to Varvara... Usually one can tell the difference when the DNA result is from contamination vs someone else's, which why I don't think it was the contamination... it would be interesting to compare the DNA from the finger to someone in Varvara's family, but of course no one will ever do that...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 01, 2015, 01:27:33 PM

For our part, we have known the Grabbes for decades. Fr. George Grabbe, subsequently Bishop Gregory, was the Chancellor / Secretary of the Synod of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for many, many years.
His son, Archimandrite Anthony, subsequently Bishop Anthony (the one in question here), was Head of the ROCA's Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem for many years and responsible for the convent where St. Elizabeth's remains were kept.
He personally opened the coffins of her and Sister Barbara at the time of their glorification, when their relics were transferred from the crypt to the main church. It was he who removed the finger, and other relics, and brought them to NYC.
So the "chain of custody" is pretty straightforward in this case. We ourselves saw her finger in his care in NY not long before he died.

It's also important to remember that long before DNA studies were even heard of, people had no idea that they were somehow 'contaminating' a specimen, or compromising it for a future, still uninvented scientific process.

That is one reason why the Otsu kerchief did not yield any useful results -- too much handling by too many people in the course of many years.

Thank you for your post. This clears up some uncertainties I had.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 01, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
I don't have any proof, but my theory is that they mixed up the bodies of Ella and Varvara...

At first, I thought that may be a possibility, but then I consulted my copy of Grand Duchess Elizabeth of Russia: New Martyr of the Communist Yoke, 6th Edition by Lubov Millar.

Victoria's letter of January 27, 1921 to her brother Ernie is published in the book and says the following:

1) "And our Ella's body was not decayed, only dried up".
2) Nun Varvara's coffin is the same as Ella's "...only smaller. For you remember she was a tiny person".

Considering that the coffins were of different sizes and Ella's body was to some degree incorrupt and therefore identifiable, I find it difficult to believe that the bodies were switched.

In light of Inok Nikolai's post, I'm now inclined to believe the finger is actually that of Ella's but experienced contamination.
 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 01, 2015, 01:41:50 PM

1) "And our Ella's body was not decayed, only dried up".
2) Nun Varvara's coffin is the same as Ella's "...only smaller. For you remember she was a tiny person".
 

I think her body was pretty corrupt if by all reports it had to be identified by the icon on her neck.. They did not say anything about the size or anything else for identification, they only mentioned that they identified her by that icon... Which leads me to believe it was pretty hard to tell which one was which. When contaminationhappens, the results are non-conclusive, and you can definitely tell that it's contamination, it just looks very odd, vs getting a specific DNA sequence. In this case they got a specific result - of someone else's DNA... I am like 99% sure that they had the bodies mixed up and the finger is actually Varvara's, but again, short of comparing the DNA from the finger to a known relative of Varvara, there is no way to prove that. I just hope they had the bodies sorted out in Jerusalem, so that we don't come upon the same issue again!

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 01, 2015, 01:46:14 PM
Also, when DNA sample from a body part is obtained, scientists will usually collect it from an area where it would not be exposed to contamination, i.e. inner tissue or bone, etc, not from the surface... Which again leads me to believe that in case of the finger it was not contamination, just wrong sample. I would be more likely to believe that it was contamination if it was something like the Otsu sample, but not something like a finger. I know it's hard for the church to accept that they have been venerating the wrong relic all these years, but this is a very reasonable conclusion based on these results.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 10, 2015, 01:27:10 PM
The examination found the gene of hemophilia Anastasia Nikolaevna.
News today 10 October 2015.The examination found the gene of hemophilia Anastasia Nikolaevna. In the video, the investigator Solovyov in the archive. Expert Rogaev on expertise Alexei and Anastasia Nikolaevna.
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2673879
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on October 10, 2015, 02:11:30 PM
Interesting, but not very surprising, as there is a 50% risk of a carrier mother passing on the gene to each of her children. Alexandra had five children, so statistically speaking, 2 or 3 could be expected to have the gene.

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 10, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
News that only Anastasia has the hemophilia gene. He is not at Olga, Tatiana, Maria.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on October 10, 2015, 03:17:02 PM
The examination found the gene of hemophilia Anastasia Nikolaevna.
News today 10 October 2015.The examination found the gene of hemophilia Anastasia Nikolaevna. In the video, the investigator Solovyov in the archive. Expert Rogaev on expertise Alexei and Anastasia Nikolaevna.
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2673879

The article has two very interesting passages:

1) Главный вопрос: расчленили их и сожгли там, где теперь под Екатеринбургом воздвигнут монастырь Русской Православной Церкви, то есть на Ганиной Яме, куда тела отвезли в первую ночь, или все это произошло в урочище Поросенков лог, где в 1991 году вскрыли печально знаменитый настил из шпал? Именно на это место указывали воспоминания старых большевиков.

The chief question is: were the bodies dismembered and doused in acid at Ganinaya Yama, where the Russian Orthodox Church has built its monastery, or at the Piglets Meadow, where the remains under examination were found?

[I. N. -- That is, were the relics only at Gainaya Yama for a little over 24 hours, and does the huge complex which draws so many pilgrims and tourists not actually mark the place of their burial? If it doesn't, then the consequences are many...]


1) Когда я встречался со Святейшим Патриархом Алексием в 1998 году, то он сказал: " У Церкви все-таки есть сомнения. Перед тем как захоронить останки, чтобы потом не тревожить могилу,  возьмите какие-то частицы праха". И когда в 2007 году обнаружили останки Алексея и Марии,  были использованы  фрагменты, взятые в 1998 году по благословению Патриарха. Он беспокоился обо всем этом. И правильно дал совет. Это нам здорово помогло.

Vladimir Soloviev, the Procurator and Chief investigator reiterated that, at the advice of Patriarch Alexis, they had kept portions of the remains in order to preform further tests as the science of DNA advanced, and so as not to have to disturb the graves again in the SS. Peter and Paul Fortress.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on October 10, 2015, 04:19:28 PM
Is that report of haemophilia found in Anastasia but not Olga and Tatiana part of the new investigation? That result was originally reported in the previous investigation of Rogaev et al, published in 'Science" in 2009.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 10, 2015, 10:26:20 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 19, 2015, 12:36:08 AM
Examination of Romanov's remnants is expected to be accomplished in February

*** First results are expected in a few days

Moscow, October 16, Interfax - Russian government expect that all research works on royal remnants and restoration of their tombs will be accomplished early in February 2016, a source in the Cabinet of Ministries said.

"Early in February we expect to accomplish the analysis, all procedures, preparation for the report of the working group and even restoration of the original look of Alexander III sarcophagus," he told the journalists on Friday.

The first results of the expertise can be issued in a few days, he said.

"Investigation successfully develops and we hope that the first results will come out in the coming days," the source said.

He also said that all archive documents on the murder of the royal family and further events were opened for the investigation.

"No dark spots are left. Full information on the murder and the following events was investigated without exception, neither historians nor the Orthodox Church have any questions," he said.

Link: http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12410
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 19, 2015, 08:04:54 AM
This is the update blog post I did about the new investigation: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-new-dna-tests-on-remains/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 19, 2015, 03:23:26 PM
Latest update: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-update-16-october-2015/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 25, 2015, 02:06:58 PM
Another update: Are they going to now exhume Alexander III? http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-update-exhumation-of-tsar-alexander-iii/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 26, 2015, 02:03:00 AM

1) "And our Ella's body was not decayed, only dried up".
2) Nun Varvara's coffin is the same as Ella's "...only smaller. For you remember she was a tiny person".
 

I think her body was pretty corrupt if by all reports it had to be identified by the icon on her neck.. They did not say anything about the size or anything else for identification, they only mentioned that they identified her by that icon... Which leads me to believe it was pretty hard to tell which one was which. When contaminationhappens, the results are non-conclusive, and you can definitely tell that it's contamination, it just looks very odd, vs getting a specific DNA sequence. In this case they got a specific result - of someone else's DNA... I am like 99% sure that they had the bodies mixed up and the finger is actually Varvara's, but again, short of comparing the DNA from the finger to a known relative of Varvara, there is no way to prove that. I just hope they had the bodies sorted out in Jerusalem, so that we don't come upon the same issue again!


Here is what Lubov Millar wrote about the opening of the coffins in 1981 in preparation for the glorification:

"The remains of the two Martyrs were partially incorrupt. Saint Elizabeth's legs and feet were intact, and so was her brain within the skull. The head of Saint Barbara was well preserved. Both were clad in black monastic habit, and Saint Elizabeth's face was covered by a veil. A large cross-paraman-was on her chest. Her hand held a prayer rope, and a simple metal cross was around her neck. A few metal icons were also in the coffin."

I am hesitant to believe that the bodies were switched. I would presume that since the bodies were partially incorrupt they must have been identifiable, especially since as it states that St. Barbara's head was well preserved.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 26, 2015, 05:57:17 AM
October 26, 2015 11:30
Identification of the remains of the Romanovs: Petropavlovka vskroyut tomb of Alexander III

http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=2679458
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2015, 08:44:30 AM
Quote
   

Here is what Lubov Millar wrote about the opening of the coffins in 1981 in preparation for the glorification:

"The remains of the two Martyrs were partially incorrupt. Saint Elizabeth's legs and feet were intact, and so was her brain within the skull. The head of Saint Barbara was well preserved. Both were clad in black monastic habit, and Saint Elizabeth's face was covered by a veil. A large cross-paraman-was on her chest. Her hand held a prayer rope, and a simple metal cross was around her neck. A few metal icons were also in the coffin."

I am hesitant to believe that the bodies were switched. I would presume that since the bodies were partially incorrupt they must have been identifiable, especially since as it states that St. Barbara's head was well preserved.

If they were intact, why did they have to be identified by an icon? I don't know if you ever saw a photo of Elizabeth's body, but believe me, it was pretty hard to recognize and would have been very easy to confuse with another woman's body...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 26, 2015, 08:52:05 AM
New technologies!
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2015, 09:04:34 AM
 http://www.theromanovfamily.com/tsar-alexander-iii-will-be-exhumed-update-on-romanov-family-remains/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria Sisi on October 26, 2015, 12:55:05 PM
I guess it makes sense to use Alexander III's remains in the testing. Their not allowed to open Maria Feodorovna's and George's was opened during the initial testing in the 90s. Obviously they can't Olga or Xenia as their buried in foreign countries so AIII is the next best.

I am assuming his tomb was once opened by the Soviets in the 20s when they were searching for jewels and other valuables or has it actually been left untouched since burial in 1894?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 26, 2015, 12:57:39 PM
"I am assuming his tomb was once opened by the Soviets in the 20s when they were searching for jewels ..."
This is a fairytale.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2015, 12:57:56 PM
I guess it makes sense to use Alexander III's remains in the testing. Their not allowed to open Maria Feodorovna's and George's was opened during the initial testing in the 90s. Obviously they can't Olga or Xenia as their buried in foreign countries so AIII is the next best.

I am assuming his tomb was once opened by the Soviets in the 20s when they were searching for jewels and other valuables or has it actually been left untouched since burial in 1894?

I don't see how Alexander III's DNA will be helpful with identifying anyone else other than Nicholas II, and possibly Alexei, with Y-linked DNA...  Seems kind of impractical considering the Y-linked tests have been done already...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: lilianna on October 26, 2015, 01:00:24 PM
I think so too.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on October 26, 2015, 05:24:21 PM
Quote
Obviously they can't Olga or Xenia as their buried in foreign countries

I wonder if the Russian Government has ever thought of asking for their bodies to be sent back to Russia, as the Dowager Empress's was.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 26, 2015, 10:21:11 PM
If they were intact, why did they have to be identified by an icon? I don't know if you ever saw a photo of Elizabeth's body, but believe me, it was pretty hard to recognize and would have been very easy to confuse with another woman's body...

Yes, I have seen the photo of Ella from the Sokolov report, but I have never seen the photo for Barbara--which means the bodies were identifiable when they were recovered.

According to this English translation of the report (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/murder.html) , it states:

On the breast of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna was an icon of the Saviour with precious stones. To my knowledge, the Emperor prayed before this icon before his abdication, and gave it afterwards to Elizabeth Feodorovna. On the reverse is the inscription 'Palm [Sunday] 13th April 1891'.

It doesn't specifically say that she was identified by the icon, but rather that it was found on her person.

Later on, the report states:

The bodies were displayed to the public and were recognized.

The body of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna: In the cranial cavity, on dissection of the skin, bruises were exposed; in the forehead area [a bruise] the size of a child's palm, and in the region of the left parietal bone [a bruise] the size of an adult's palm. There are bruises in the cellular tissue, the muscles and on the surface of the cranium. The skull bones are intact. A bruise is visible in the aura mater of the parietal area.'

The body of Varvara Yakovleva: 'On dissection of the skin of the head a bruise was found in the region of the right temple, and a second bruise in the occipital and parietal regions. The bones of the skull are intact. There is blood in the sutures. On removal of the cranium a bruise was found under the aura mater in the occipital region . On dissection of the skin a bruise [was foundl in the region of the sternum.

So, if the bodies were mistakenly switched, then it would have to have happened sometime when the bodies were being transported. The bodies must have undergone further corruption to render them indistinguishable.

The best way to clear up all these doubts is to obtain a new DNA sample from the body that rests in the tomb that is identified as that of Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr in the Church of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.

Considering that approval was given for a sample from Alexander III, a sample from Jerusalem should be only a matter of time.

What an embarrassment it would be for the Russian Orthodox Church, if it turns out that it's not Saint Elizabeth. 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on October 26, 2015, 10:51:35 PM
Quote
So, if the bodies were mistakenly switched, then it would have to have happened sometime when the bodies were being transported. The bodies must have undergone further corruption to render them indistinguishable.

The best way to clear up all these doubts is to obtain a new DNA sample from the body that rests in the tomb that is identified as that of Saint Elizabeth the New Martyr in the Church of St. Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem.

Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 26, 2015, 11:55:34 PM
Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Good idea.

The tomb identified as St. Barbara's is on the other side of the iconostasis from the tomb identified as St. Elizabeth's.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/99/be/cb/99becb0c0ccb02da1920ee1e0e700160.jpg)

     St. Elizabeth            St. Barbara
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 27, 2015, 06:20:46 PM

Perhaps a DNA sample should also be taken from the body that was identified as Varvara Yakovleva, if her burial place is known, on the off-chance that she was really the Grand Duchess, Elizabeth Feodorovna.

Totally agree!
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 27, 2015, 06:22:12 PM

What an embarrassment it would be for the Russian Orthodox Church, if it turns out that it's not Saint Elizabeth. 


Yes, but at least they will have the right answer... If they want it...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Georgiy on October 29, 2015, 03:51:42 AM
If it is not the right one, then it is the one beside it - not such a problem, and not I don't think, an embarrassment.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 29, 2015, 07:54:20 AM
If it is not the right one, then it is the one beside it - not such a problem, and not I don't think, an embarrassment.

Well, there is a right answer (the remains are them) and there is a wrong answer (the remains are someone else's) and there is nothing in between really.. I just hope they accept the right answer and move on and end this nonsense finally...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on October 29, 2015, 06:02:26 PM
Here is what Hugo Mayer writes in his biography, Elizabeth: Grand Duchess of Russia about the condition of Ella’s body after it was recovered:

Father Seraphim also told Lady Athlone that the body of the grand duchess,“strange to say was not decomposed at all.” Lady Milford Haven seemingly confirms this, in a passage already quoted in the Epilogue, that later on when he opened her coffin at the convent in Irkutsk, “our Ella’s body was not decayed only dried up.” (Hessian Grand Duchal Archives). Prince Nicholas Kudashev, the last envoy of imperial Russia to China, also happened to see her body at Harbin, where Father Seraphim stopped en route to Beijing. “The Grand Duchess,” he wrote, “lay as if alive, completely unchanged since the day that I met her in Moscow on the way to Beijing, except that on one side of her face was a large bruise from a blow sustained in the fall into the mineshaft.” (Materialy k zhitiyu…, p. 152). General Smolin tells us that her fingers “were stiffened in the sign of the cross.”
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 12, 2015, 12:53:50 PM
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: edubs31 on November 12, 2015, 01:26:45 PM
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."

I'm guessing they had a prearranged response to this. Hope & pray that some type of discrepancy appeared in the data - for if it did doubt could continue to be cast no matter how overwhelming the evidence as a whole - and if the results are conclusive then simply ask for more testing to be done...rinse, repeat.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 12, 2015, 01:48:01 PM

I'm guessing they had a prearranged response to this. Hope & pray that some type of discrepancy appeared in the data - for if it did doubt could continue to be cast no matter how overwhelming the evidence as a whole - and if the results are conclusive then simply ask for more testing to be done...rinse, repeat.

well eventually they will have to accept the remains as authentic, but it will open a huge pandora's box, because they were not buried as saints, so it will probably mean that they have to all be exhumed and reburied as saints... plus they have to take relics from them, so either way they have to be exhumed...  Also, it won't look that good that all these years ROC claimed remainds were not them, and the followers believed them when they cast doubts on the science, etc, and suddenly they have to admit that they were wrong all along... This can't be an easy thing to do for them.. PR nightmare even... That's just my theory...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on November 12, 2015, 08:35:07 PM
The recent statement sounds to me as though the original DNA test results have been confirmed, but the new tests and comparisons which the church requested have not yet been completed. I did not think they could be in the time, and I never expected that first deadline to be met so I am not surprised.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on November 12, 2015, 10:40:13 PM
Update on case re-opening: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/5062-2/   "Russian Orthodox Church is still not ready to make a final conclusion on the question on the authenticity of the remains of the Romanov family."

I hope that the Russian Church's desire for further testing will lead to a sample from St. Elizabeth's body in Jerusalem. One cannot consider the testing complete without doing a comparative DNA analysis of the remains between sisters Alexandra and Elizabeth.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 13, 2015, 08:46:24 AM
Update: not sure what exactly is implied here, could they possibly be questioning whether Alexander III’s remains are really in his tomb? http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-tomb-of-tsar-alexander-iii-opened-previously/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria Sisi on November 13, 2015, 10:32:58 AM
Didn't all the tombs get opened after the civil war when the Soviets were looking for valuables to sell?

If it really isn't Alexander III (which would be a major mess!!!) its probable the remains got mixed up and his are in another tomb in the fortress. It could be any of the Tsars/Grand Dukes. I hope it isn't true though.

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 13, 2015, 10:38:04 AM
Didn't all the tombs get opened after the civil war when the Soviets were looking for valuables to sell?

Yes, but if they knew this was a possibility to begin with, why even attempt to use his remains in these new studies? Any way you look at it, it makes no sense! It's almost like they are trying to have an "out"...
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria Sisi on November 13, 2015, 11:51:45 AM
Didn't all the tombs get opened after the civil war when the Soviets were looking for valuables to sell?

Yes, but if they knew this was a possibility to begin with, why even attempt to use his remains in these new studies? Any way you look at it, it makes no sense! It's almost like they are trying to have an "out"...

Do you really think they knew or suspected beforehand that the wrong remains might be in the tomb? 

I honestly think its a surprise to them too. They have nothing to gain by opening this can of worms. I'm pretty sure the government want this whole ordeal with the last IF over with, so why make even more problems concerning remains that were officially buried decades before the revolution when they could have left it alone? I doubt they want to prolong things or upset the church who they are bending over backwards to please.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 13, 2015, 11:57:31 AM

Do you really think they knew or suspected beforehand that the wrong remains might be in the tomb? 

I honestly think its a surprise to them too. They have nothing to gain by opening this can of worms. I'm pretty sure the government want this whole ordeal with the last IF over with, so why make even more problems concerning remains that were officially buried decades before the revolution when they could have left it alone? I doubt they want to prolong things or upset the church who they are bending over backwards to please.


It was known that tombs had been opened in the 1920's, which could have led to tampering with remains... So yeah, clearly they knew it was a possibility.. Even if they did not know way in advance, they recorded the chipping and shifting, yet they still went ahead and took the sample. So yeah, I do think so. Personally I don't think wrong remains are in the tomb, but what is the point of them bringing this up now? And I am not talking about the Russian government, reopening this case and doing all this was not the government's idea. The government has accepted the authenticity of these remains long ago.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on November 13, 2015, 06:00:27 PM
If the tomb has been opened it gives them an out if the DNA of the purported Alexander III does not match that of Nicholas II. If it does match, no problem.  If not, it does not necessarily mean that Nicholas II's results are invalidated.  It could equally mean that the tomb (and other nearby tombs) were opened at some time after the interment, and the remains mixed up.  That is quite possible, as I know of a family mausoleum in Poland where the tombs were rifled by Russian soldiers in WWII and the skeletal remains were put back into coffins by guesswork.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 13, 2015, 07:32:22 PM
If they really had to do this (which they didn't) they could have used the DNA of numerous other relatives, which would not be questionable. It makes no sense for them to have insisted to exhume AIII and take a sample from him.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: holynewmartyr on November 13, 2015, 11:28:20 PM
This  Interfax article (http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12515) provides a few details:

Quote
Grave of Emperor Alexander III may have been opened before - Russian Orthodox Church

Moscow, November 13, Interfax - The Russian Orthodox Church does not rule out that the grave of Alexander III in St. Petersburg's Petropavlovskaya Fortress could have been opened before.

"We are not alleging anything, we are not alleging that the grave was invaded, although we believe it could have happened. The only thing we are alleging now is that the headstone was disassembled and then assembled again," Bishop Tikhon of Yegoryevsk, secretary of the Patriarch's Council on Culture, told a press conference in Moscow on Friday.

"It is possible that the tsar's remains were disturbed, there could have been looting and they are in an inappropriate condition," the bishop said.

The bishop said a possible opening of the grave is indicated by the absence of metal belts holding the marble covers of the headstones, which was discovered by experts who worked in the Sts Peter and Paul Cathedral.

The bishop also said garbage, traces of asbestos and plaster and broken stones had been found under the headstone cover.

Experts now have to lift the stone under the headstone, he said, reiterating that all actions are recorded on video and photographed.

Bishop Tikhon said graves in the Petropavlovskaya Fortress have been opened before, possibly multiple times. He said there is evidence of the opening of tsars' graves, including Peter I and Alexander I, adding that the remains of the latter were not found, the grave was empty and that evidence can become "a weighty argument" to the Russian Orthodox Church. "We are not brushing any evidence aside, we are trying to check it," he said.

The grave of Alexander II is being opened as part of the forensic evaluation of the remains of the family of Russia's last tsar.

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 24, 2015, 02:45:12 PM
Is Russian Orthodox Church “Not Convinced Remains in Tomb of Alexander III Are His”?    http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-russian-orthodox-church-not-completely-convinced-that-remains-in-tomb-of-alexander-iii-are-his/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 24, 2015, 05:32:08 PM
HES  BEEN THERE OVER 100 YEARS AND THEY ARENT SURE 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on December 25, 2015, 05:26:57 AM
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=12626
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on December 25, 2015, 05:42:42 PM
Romanov Fan wrote:
Quote
HES  BEEN THERE OVER 100 YEARS AND THEY ARENT SURE 

Well that is the question - Has he or hasn't he? In other words: Is he still there now?

There are lots of cases where interred remains were looted during WWII by passing soldiery (of all armies) and the bones from adjoining caskets were scattered around, only to be reinterred by guesswork. This could easily be the case with Alexander III.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Forum Admin on December 25, 2015, 06:09:59 PM
They closely examined the tomb and it was not opened at any point prior. Alexander III is in there and there is no question.  This was settled weeks ago.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 28, 2015, 12:49:31 PM
They closely examined the tomb and it was not opened at any point prior. Alexander III is in there and there is no question.  This was settled weeks ago.

Yes, I did a follow up story about that too! "ROMANOV FAMILY: TOMB OF ALEXANDER III WAS NOT PREVIOUSLY OPENED BY SOVIETS AFTER ALL" : http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-tomb-alexander-iii-not-previously-opened-soviets/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 28, 2015, 03:03:37 PM
Another update: "ROMANOV FAMILY: GRAND DUCHESS AND TSAREVICH REMAINS IN CUSTODY OF RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH": http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-have-been/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on December 29, 2015, 09:24:09 AM
Another update: "ROMANOV FAMILY: GRAND DUCHESS AND TSAREVICH REMAINS IN CUSTODY OF RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH": http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-have-been/

I would hope that , if they get a good enough sample ,  they will be comparing not only the Y DNA of Alexander III to Nicholas and Alexei ,  but also the autosomal DNA . One or the other would be enough to establish the familial link , but both would be ideal  .
For Marie/Anastasia, compare autosomally with Alexander , and also repeat the analysis done several years ago to compare her autosomal DNA with N and A , and her mtDNA with Alix (improved reading with better technology than in the past ?)  . Nothing less will do.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Forum Admin on December 29, 2015, 09:38:59 AM
There is never a need to "re test" a DNA test that has already been done.  The science is exactly the same and there are never and "different" results, especially when a match has already been proven.  If you do not understand this, then you do not understand how DNA testing works. DNA testing only gets MORE conclusive with advances, but that does not decrease the fact that a match has already been proven.

It is a waste of time and money to do another DNA test because nothing will ever be different.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: wakas on December 29, 2015, 04:41:23 PM
I agree with everything you said, FA. Doing another DNA test is pointless.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 29, 2015, 04:43:20 PM
Same here.. I keep saying that it would have been so much nicer if this money was used to help the many needy people in Russia... But what else is new. Politics never changes.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: wakas on December 29, 2015, 04:44:39 PM
Well said, Helen. This is so true.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on December 29, 2015, 04:59:50 PM
Quote
There is never a need to "re test" a DNA test that has already been done.  The science is exactly the same and there are never and "different" results, especially when a match has already been proven.  If you do not understand this, then you do not understand how DNA testing works. DNA testing only gets MORE conclusive with advances, but that does not decrease the fact that a match has already been proven.

It is a waste of time and money to do another DNA test because nothing will ever be different.
That only applies if the test is done from the same samples as previously, using the same technique. I thought the question that needed to be settled was whether the previous samples were from the relevant people, so it was the sampling that needed to be redone and DNA retested, possibly by newer methods, not the original DNA tests on the original samples.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Forum Admin on December 29, 2015, 06:13:05 PM
Quote
There is never a need to "re test" a DNA test that has already been done.  The science is exactly the same and there are never and "different" results, especially when a match has already been proven.  If you do not understand this, then you do not understand how DNA testing works. DNA testing only gets MORE conclusive with advances, but that does not decrease the fact that a match has already been proven.

It is a waste of time and money to do another DNA test because nothing will ever be different.
That only applies if the test is done from the same samples as previously, using the same technique. I thought the question that needed to be settled was whether the previous samples were from the relevant people, so it was the sampling that needed to be redone and DNA retested, possibly by newer methods, not the original DNA tests on the original samples.

No the previous tests already MATCH and establish who they are.  If the samples weren't from the "relevant" people, how could they have matched the Romanov family DNA exactly?

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on December 30, 2015, 05:24:05 AM
There is never a need to "re test" a DNA test that has already been done.  The science is exactly the same and there are never and "different" results, especially when a match has already been proven.  If you do not understand this, then you do not understand how DNA testing works. DNA testing only gets MORE conclusive with advances, but that does not decrease the fact that a match has already been proven.

It is a waste of time and money to do another DNA test because nothing will ever be different.
No that is not my point . I understand DNA testing and how genetic inheritance works , particularly regarding the IF ( although it is clear many on here and elsehwere do not). The previous testing was conclusive - only the credulous or the self-interested would seek to rubbish them. My point is , they have decided to analyze  the IF's remains again ,  and test Alexanders remains - so why not subject them all to the most rigorous testing possible , not just to establish their identity again , but to fully explore their genomes and wring as much information out of them as possible, while you have the final chance - they are of huge historical importance after all. This likely goes well beyond the remit of the labs conducting the analysis unfortunately. As for the cost , well governments spend/waste billions per year , much of it on questionable causes at home and abroad. Analyzing a few genomes in a relatively shallow way is unlikely to break the bank.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 02, 2016, 07:54:25 AM
.. test Alexanders remains - so why not subject them all to the most rigorous testing possible , not just to establish their identity again , but to fully explore their genomes and wring as much information out of them as possible, while you have the final chance - they are of huge historical importance after all...

This would be very nice, but this is not their goal. Their goal is to retest everything to prove or disprove the authenticity of the remains, which they still question.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 02, 2016, 10:01:08 AM
Update: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-update-new-study-may-take-three-years/
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on January 02, 2016, 12:54:35 PM
.. test Alexanders remains - so why not subject them all to the most rigorous testing possible , not just to establish their identity again , but to fully explore their genomes and wring as much information out of them as possible, while you have the final chance - they are of huge historical importance after all...

This would be very nice, but this is not their goal. Their goal is to retest everything to prove or disprove the authenticity of the remains, which they still question.

Yes exactly . They could so much more.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on January 02, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
Update: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-update-new-study-may-take-three-years/

Well I was cynical to begin with regarding the motives behind this 'new investigation' but now ..... Two to three years ? To extract DNA from just two sets of remains , and compare them to the other remains for identification purposes? Who comprises this ROC team of experts examining the remains?  Even if they are starting from scratch, the whole process should take closer to two to three months than to two to three years. I have a feeling however that the ROC wlll drag this out as long as they can , maybe even until 2018 when they can declare the remains valid and bury them on the centenary of the Romanovs deaths.  The Russian regime is allowing the ROC its moment in the sun and may well indulge them .They may even deliberately fudge the testing. I hope I am proved wrong and just being pessimistic.  Anyway , aren't the secular authorities finished with the remains and presenting their results this month ?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Geniebeanie on April 07, 2016, 04:52:31 PM
Have there been any results in the comfirmation on the remains of Nicholas and Alexander.  I am referring to the DNATest done earlier this year?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on April 07, 2016, 06:00:11 PM
What about  Alexander I  The Romanov  Legend of  Feodor
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Превед on April 08, 2016, 09:54:38 AM
What about  Alexander I  The Romanov  Legend of  Feodor

See this hread: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2185.0)
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 08, 2016, 10:35:14 AM
Update: http://www.theromanovfamily.com/romanov-family-remains-update-new-study-may-take-three-years/

Well I was cynical to begin with regarding the motives behind this 'new investigation' but now ..... Two to three years ? To extract DNA from just two sets of remains , and compare them to the other remains for identification purposes? Who comprises this ROC team of experts examining the remains?  Even if they are starting from scratch, the whole process should take closer to two to three months than to two to three years. I have a feeling however that the ROC wlll drag this out as long as they can , maybe even until 2018 when they can declare the remains valid and bury them on the centenary of the Romanovs deaths.  The Russian regime is allowing the ROC its moment in the sun and may well indulge them .They may even deliberately fudge the testing. I hope I am proved wrong and just being pessimistic.  Anyway , aren't the secular authorities finished with the remains and presenting their results this month ?

Well, Paul Kulikovsky's "Romanov News", No. 96, March 2016, has a long, revealing, interview with Victor Aksiuchits on this whole affair.
If you don't subscribe to Romanov News, it's on Face Book too:
https://www.facebook.com/PageRomanovNews

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on April 08, 2016, 01:36:29 PM
I hope this will stop the foot dragging of the ROC on the burial in the final two bodies.  Isn't it way past time for Alexei and his sister (whichever it is) to be buried with the rest of the family?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on April 09, 2016, 04:00:24 AM
Have there been any results in the comfirmation on the remains of Nicholas and Alexander.  I am referring to the DNATest done earlier this year?


Geniebeanie ; Nikolai has posted a link above . I cannot read it as I am not a facebooker. 
Nicholas and Alix's remains have been re-tested and their DNA compared to living relatives and to bloodstains on Nicholas' and Alexander II's  clothing - and it all matches up .That was six months ago. So that confirms, yet again , the identity of their remains and, by association, the others in the mass grave in Pigs Meadow.
As far as I am aware, the remains of Alexei and Anastasia/Maria are in the hands of the Russian Orthodox Church who are conducting their own research into their DNA . I have no idea if the secular authorities are also conducting research into those remains as well (although they have done so already in 2009 ). Or who is testing the samples taken from Alexander III's remains. Or when any of these results will be presented. All I know for sure is , archaic superstition and political manouvering continue to haunt the Romanov story a century after their deaths.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 09, 2016, 09:21:46 AM
Have there been any results in the comfirmation on the remains of Nicholas and Alexander.  I am referring to the DNATest done earlier this year?


Geniebeanie ; Nikolai has posted a link above . I cannot read it as I am not a facebooker.  


I don't have a FaceBook account either. But perhaps you could go to FaceBook and contact Paul Kulikovsky to be put on the mailing list to have it dropped into your e-mail box.
http://tinyurl.com/hpzypv8
I.N.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on April 09, 2016, 11:59:50 AM
Have there been any results in the comfirmation on the remains of Nicholas and Alexander.  I am referring to the DNATest done earlier this year?


Geniebeanie ; Nikolai has posted a link above . I cannot read it as I am not a facebooker.  


I don't have a FaceBook account either. But perhaps you could go to FaceBook and contact Paul Kulikovsky to be put on the mailing list to have it dropped into your e-mail box.
http://tinyurl.com/hpzypv8
I.N.

Thanks Nikolai , I may well try that . Little news on the subject has filtered through for several months .
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 10, 2016, 12:05:53 PM
Have there been any results in the comfirmation on the remains of Nicholas and Alexander.  I am referring to the DNATest done earlier this year?


Geniebeanie ; Nikolai has posted a link above . I cannot read it as I am not a facebooker.  


I don't have a FaceBook account either. But perhaps you could go to FaceBook and contact Paul Kulikovsky to be put on the mailing list to have it dropped into your e-mail box.
http://tinyurl.com/hpzypv8
I.N.

Paul Kulikovsky wrote to say hat those who want to subscribe to "Romanov News" can send a request to the following address:
paulkulikovsky@yandex.ru
Please note that that is the email address used for the journal. It is not his personal e-mail address.
Issues of the journal will be sent to the address from which the request comes.
I. N.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: DNAgenie on April 10, 2016, 05:31:01 PM
This might be the article.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/612news.html
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on April 11, 2016, 05:39:19 AM
This might be the article.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/612news.html

Thanks DNAgenie .
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 11, 2016, 02:42:10 PM
This might be the article.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/612news.html

Thanks DNAgenie .

Paul Gilbert's article is interesting, but that is not the one I mentioned.

It is an in-depth interview with Victor Aksiuchits, who was on the original government commission on the burial, etc.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on April 12, 2016, 07:11:02 AM
I wonder if they'll turn up anything new?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: von Ebert on February 19, 2017, 04:46:34 PM
Sunbeam

On your posting in 2016 you put forward a question as noted below about Maria or Anastasia from my understanding Anastasia and Alexei were found last and that both Anastasia and her brother Alexei DNA group was the same as their father that produces a rare genetic marker


I so hope the issue will finally be resolved and the remains of Alexei and his sister will be laid to rest and the family reunited at last!

I wonder though - the BBC article speaks of "Maria" - NOT "Maria or Anastasia". To my knowledge the question of the identification of the remains of Maria or Anastasia had not been settled but perhaps I missed out on more recent information?

Also the article talks about the possible future canonisation of Alexei and Maria. Would this be a canonisation as saints? The imperial family as a whole are already canonised as passion bearers.
[/quote]
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: GDSophie on February 19, 2017, 04:54:24 PM
Anastasia has not been confirmed to be in the second grave, and Russia has buried one of the girls under 'Anastasia Nikolaevna' without both research teams agreeing on which youngest Grand Duchess the body belongs too, so 'Maria or Anastasia' it will remain. Articles say 'Maria' because Russia say Maria is missing, end of.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 20, 2017, 11:36:33 AM
I thought they confirmed that it was Maria, not Anastasia, who was the missing one, until her remains were found in 2007.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: edubs31 on February 20, 2017, 11:45:23 AM
I thought they confirmed that it was Maria, not Anastasia, who was the missing one, until her remains were found in 2007.

Last I heard - to Sophie's point - is that there is disagreement between the American and Russia scientists. This is unfortunate. Not because leaves any shadow of a doubt that the entire family was killed that night, but because it provides insane conspiracy theorists - hell bent on proving one or more of the Romanovs survived - just a trace of ammunition.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Maria the Beautiful on February 20, 2017, 11:46:39 AM
I thought they confirmed that it was Maria, not Anastasia, who was the missing one, until her remains were found in 2007.
I was under the similar impression that the female remains found in the second location were most likely Maria, but not confirmed.  My memory deceives me here, but I seem to recall something about the development of the collar bone of the remains found in the first grave favored the younger of the two girls.  There were not enough remains found in the second grave to make a definite comparison.  But honestly, I can't recall where I read this.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on February 21, 2017, 12:57:10 AM
As I understand it, in identifying which of the girls was which, the investigators were dependent on bones and teeth. There are certain developments which typically take place between the ages of 17 and 19. The problem is that in July 1918 Anastasia was 17 and Marie was 19. Both had their respective birthdays at Ekaterinburg, so very recently.

Purely because I'm tired of Anastasia conspiracy theories, I rather hope that it was Marie in the second grave!

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 21, 2017, 11:47:59 AM
Quote
Purely because I'm tired of Anastasia conspiracy theories

Amazing how these conspiracies are still happening.  I mean the whole family has been accounted for.  They all died on July 17th, 1918, regardless of who was in that second grave. 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on February 22, 2017, 12:55:47 PM
Quote
Purely because I'm tired of Anastasia conspiracy theories

Amazing how these conspiracies are still happening.  I mean the whole family has been accounted for.  They all died on July 17th, 1918, regardless of who was in that second grave.

Nah, that's fake news Tim . I have alternative facts that say otherwise ..... 'Anastasiaists' fit very well into this current zeitgeist .  Evidence can be dismissed with a wave of the hand amid accusations of being naive and brainwashed , before being pointed towards  highly questionable 'counter-evidence'. How susceptible people are to outlandish theories ! People will believe anything apparently , no matter how irrational and un-scientific. It's in our nature I guess.

Personally I just hope in 18 months time (July 2018) that all the remains are interred together (as I think they will be that month , but where ? who knows?) . It won't stop the crazies from bleating about Ana Andersons ears , hair , bunyans , etc , but at least WE will be grateful for the saga of the Romanov remains to have finally reached its end.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 22, 2017, 05:32:23 PM
I can't wait for the episode of Ancient Aliens that will reveal that the gray aliens spirited Anastasia away.  :D
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: von Ebert on February 24, 2017, 04:21:24 PM
You have brought up a point of interest to this writer that Anastasia has not been confirmed to be in the second grave. Was there not a news report that both body remains in the second grave was  a boy and a girl and their DNA matched,  If that is correct then I may have the answer to who was found in the second grave sight.

Regards

Frederic von. Ebert



Anastasia has not been confirmed to be in the second grave, and Russia has buried one of the girls under 'Anastasia Nikolaevna' without both research teams agreeing on which youngest Grand Duchess the body belongs too, so 'Maria or Anastasia' it will remain. Articles say 'Maria' because Russia say Maria is missing, end of.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LauraO on February 24, 2017, 04:43:33 PM
Agreed, I find this odd as I thought there was, if not disagreement, certainly a reluctance at least to make a definite identification without further testing. I was under the impression that the desire for further testing was the major reason that internment of the two sets of remains had been so delayed? Perhaps not, I may be mistaken.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LauraO on February 24, 2017, 04:48:15 PM

 I do hope more than anything that by July 2018 the whole family will be interred together.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 25, 2017, 05:07:39 AM
Me too.  It has been confirmed that the 2007 remains are Alexei and one of the younger sisters.  Does it really matter which sister?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LauraO on February 25, 2017, 06:13:32 AM
One would think not. All have been accounted for, and we can rest assured that they are all together. Unfortunately that will never be enough for some people. It seems that the desire for mystery and conspiracy will persist despite fact.

As you say, whichever sister it is, all have been finally found, and will hopefully rest soon. I do just hope so very much that they will have reached this point by the summer of next year. Has there been any statement or suggestion as to this?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on February 25, 2017, 11:36:11 AM
I do not think it matters much which is which. They have all been found, and each is known unto God.

I have anyway read that it is by no means certain that all the remains of the original nine bodies have been assigned to the correct coffins. Quite possibly part of Alexei Trupp has been buried with Nicholas. But Trupp was literally loyal to the last, and I do not think Nicholas would have minded.

What I think is more important than these endless arguments is that there should be a proper memorial for the Romanovs whose bodies have never been found, and those of the Imperial Family's household who were shot separately from them after arriving in Ekaterinburg. I have no particular view on where that should be, but within the Peter and Paul Cathedral would seem most appropriate, given that the Imperial Family are there, and the four Grand Dukes shot in the Fortress in January 1919 have no known graves.

Ann

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 25, 2017, 11:37:34 AM
Like Nicky's brother, Michael.  He still hasn't been found, right?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on February 25, 2017, 01:51:16 PM
Precisely.

Nor has Nicholas Johnson, who died with him.

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LauraO on February 25, 2017, 03:23:34 PM
It seems just so sad that after all of the time that has passed, such a memorial has not been put in place. You're quite right.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 25, 2017, 07:20:43 PM
An attempt should be launched to find Michael and Nicholas Johnson.  Surely some records must exist somewhere (since anyone who was alive at that time is dead by now).
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on February 27, 2017, 05:47:27 AM
One would think not. All have been accounted for, and we can rest assured that they are all together. Unfortunately that will never be enough for some people. It seems that the desire for mystery and conspiracy will persist despite fact.

As you say, whichever sister it is, all have been finally found, and will hopefully rest soon. I do just hope so very much that they will have reached this point by the summer of next year. Has there been any statement or suggestion as to this?

Expect a statement  within the next few months , about identities , and about re-burial .
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on February 27, 2017, 05:53:00 AM
I do not think it matters much which is which. They have all been found, and each is known unto God.

I have anyway read that it is by no means certain that all the remains of the original nine bodies have been assigned to the correct coffins. Quite possibly part of Alexei Trupp has been buried with Nicholas. But Trupp was literally loyal to the last, and I do not think Nicholas would have minded.

What I think is more important than these endless arguments is that there should be a proper memorial for the Romanovs whose bodies have never been found, and those of the Imperial Family's household who were shot separately from them after arriving in Ekaterinburg. I have no particular view on where that should be, but within the Peter and Paul Cathedral would seem most appropriate, given that the Imperial Family are there, and the four Grand Dukes shot in the Fortress in January 1919 have no known graves.

Ann

Ann

I think they won't go back to the fortress but to Yekaterinberg instead  because I doubt the ROC will accept the fortess as a suitable resting place. It doesn't matter that much  but I'd rather they stayed in St Petersburg. We shall see.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on February 28, 2017, 06:05:26 AM
The ROC really needs to stop dragging their feet on this issue.  Science is science, and DNA testing as confirmed that the remains are that of Alexei and one of the younger sisters.  Case closed.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on March 02, 2017, 07:03:58 AM
The ROC really needs to stop dragging their feet on this issue.  Science is science, and DNA testing as confirmed that the remains are that of Alexei and one of the younger sisters.  Case closed.

Science and religion don't always make for easy bedfellows ! To be quite honest when the subject of the Romanovs veers into the Orthodox realm of Holy Martyrdom , veneration, etc (as if often does)  I zone out .  But each to their own.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 12, 2017, 08:59:19 AM
Rightly or not, the Russian Orthodox Church has come out very poorly in this. It has given me the impression that they care more for their former Bolshevik masters than the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on March 13, 2017, 06:53:38 AM
Yeah, they are more interested in gay bashing and bribe taking, it seems. 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on March 20, 2017, 10:13:05 AM
Agreed . This renewed close relationship between Russian church and state results in extremely conservative (kind way of putting it) cultural outlook , laws , arrests and prosecutions .  And the saga of the remains is just another extension of that relationship . The remains will eventually be reunited , but on the Church's terms.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on March 21, 2017, 07:02:22 AM
Decades of Communist oppression seems to have taught the Church nothing.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on June 06, 2017, 05:31:54 AM
We were told an announcement would be made  on this matter in the second quarter of 2017 . From today that gives them three weeks , although maybe they will wait until 17 July. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out over the next 12 months. The family will surely have to be interred before , or more likely on , 17 July 1918 , but where is anybodys guess.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: TimM on June 13, 2017, 05:18:46 AM
If the ROC would stop dragging its feet on the matter.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on September 11, 2017, 10:36:30 AM
The ROC have stated there will be a conference late this year, or early next, where initial findings of the genetic investigation will be made public . What are the odds now that  internment of ALL the remains together in one place won't happen in July 2018 as predicted?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: BobAtchison on September 24, 2017, 03:37:28 PM
Around 1990 I was in St. Petersburg with Suzanne Massie, she went to see Kyril (the Current Patriarch) He was a bishop then, Kostroma?  I don't remember. After that visit we were having dinner and she told me "Bob, I have bad news for you that will upset you.  I spoke with Kyril about the canonization of the Romanovs as you asked.  He told me he would NEVER canonize them in very forceful terms.  He blames them for what happened to Russia."  She said that I should not be surprised because he grew up during the communist era and other prelates from that period held similar views. I believe Kyril is the only thing standing in the way of the remains being recognized by the Russian Church.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Jeremiah on September 24, 2017, 06:42:21 PM
I might be wrong, but my first impression was that the Church of Russia wanted to seal the celebrations of the IF martyrdom’s centennial with this very special event, that is, the official recognition of their relics. It does make a bit of sense if you see how it all evolved. Initially, they said that they would have the results in approx. two years. Then they specified the second half of 2017 as the time for the announcements, and finally, now, they say beginning of 2018. It looks like they just kept pushing it a bit forward, so that they reach the time of the big celebrations. Well, if it’s going to work for the glory of the IF in a wider scale, within the Church, then (IMO) let it be so. I don't think it would do any harm.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on September 25, 2017, 02:12:16 AM
Surely there is no need to exhume Nicholas and family, as their DNA profiles are on file from the  previous tests, unless the argument is that testing has become much more precise since the initial tests were done.

Ann
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: GDSophie on September 25, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Around 1990 I was in St. Petersburg with Suzanne Massie, she went to see Kyril (the Current Patriarch) He was a bishop then, Kostroma?  I don't remember. After that visit we were having dinner and she told me "Bob, I have bad news for you that will upset you.  I spoke with Kyril about the canonization of the Romanovs as you asked.  He told me he would NEVER canonize them in very forceful terms.  He blames them for what happened to Russia."  She said that I should not be surprised because he grew up during the communist era and other prelates from that period held similar views. I believe Kyril is the only thing standing in the way of the remains being recognized by the Russian Church.

And now he won't bury the last two children because he blames them? He blames two innocent children-and their three other siblings, one still a child legally-for what happened to Russia? It seems Kyril has more of a grudge to them, and thinking of his views instead of the masses, but too late as they're canonised anyway and he really can't do anything except agree to have them buried, to be honest.

Surely there is no need to exhume Nicholas and family, as their DNA profiles are on file from the  previous tests, unless the argument is that testing has become much more precise since the initial tests were done.

Ann

Correct, Ann. DNA testing has become more precise since the 1990s and because they based their findings for the two children on their DNA sequences they would do it all again with better technology. Any news of a documentary being made watching it all happen? :D
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 07, 2017, 10:05:19 PM
I have given up hope that Alexei and Marie will ever be buried. The ROC cares nothing for them and the only people who have standing in this matter would not be listened to.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: GDSophie on October 08, 2017, 12:57:50 PM
I have given up hope that Alexei and Marie will ever be buried. The ROC cares nothing for them and the only people who have standing in this matter would not be listened to.

Didn't the government bury the others without the consent of the Church? They could do that again.

Or wait until Kyril is dead.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Jeremiah on October 08, 2017, 03:16:42 PM
God will no way let his beloved children like this. Everything will work out fine very soon. The Church is not confined into any individuals. The Church is also the body and the voice of the people. But above everything is the Body of Christ Himself. Soon everything will be settled.

This is not a romantic spiritual dream. It has been verified time and again. The children are Holy Martyrs. It is the Church who glorified them as such:

"Vox populi, Vox dei".
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Превед on October 08, 2017, 03:37:19 PM
Is the delay perhaps due to God and Christ being too busy attending to the many weak, downtrodden and persecuted in today's Russia?
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Jeremiah on October 08, 2017, 05:29:03 PM
I just wish that the life and death of Nicholas and his family -together with their spiritual qualities- could at least inspire us in a way, so as not to view them only as historical and tragical figures. I’m wondering what would their answer be to this question.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on October 14, 2017, 07:12:21 AM
Lisa : The church will almost certainly officially recognise Alexei and Marie and re-unite them with the rest of the family in an elaborate ceremony, maybe July 2018,  and we will all breathe a sigh of relief .. but we won't soon forget that the Church kept Alexei and Marie in a box on a shelf 'in storage' for a decade, and this after a scientific study had already identified them as being the Tsar's children.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Inok Nikolai on November 21, 2017, 04:54:55 PM


FYI:

The ROC Bishops' Synod is supposed to examine this question at the Synod Meeting, from Nov. 29 to Dec. 2, 2017.

Вопрос "екатеринбургских останков" обсудят на Архиерейском соборе

17.11.2017 12:39
http://www.blagovest-info.ru/index.php?ss=2&s=3&id=75776
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 22, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on December 07, 2017, 10:58:28 AM
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.







Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: GDSophie on December 07, 2017, 02:10:53 PM
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.

Unfortunately, many people who are made saints are portrayed as 'angels' in their real lives and have to be seen as pure, innocent, individuals. They may have not been 'ordinary' people-no matter how much they wanted to-but they were people. The Church seem to forget that.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Jeremiah on December 07, 2017, 03:44:22 PM
When the Church claims that it deals with the remains of no ordinary people, but with the relics of saints, it does not suggest that the saints have not been ordinary people during their earthly life, but rather than now, after they have been glorified by God and the Church, are dealt with as being sacred, holy, saintly. In the context of this, the Church has to be sure that what she gives to the faithful to venerate, that is, to kiss in a pious manner, indeed belongs to a saint, indeed is a holy relic.

Having said that, I must add that I, myself, am convinced beyond any doubt that the Yekaterinburg remains are INDEED those of the IF. My comment only aims to clarify what the statement of the Church means, based on the Orthodox tradition and understanding, regardless of the fact that in this case there shouldn’t be any doubts. But that’s another story, irrelevant to the concept of how does the Church understands the definition of a saint. 
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on December 08, 2017, 01:44:33 AM
On the question of Nicholas's teeth, is there any possibility that the original investigators mixed up the skulls of the three adult males - Nicholas, Dr Botkin and Ivan Kharitonov? How did they differentiate them - DNA testing on the the skulls themselves?

I'm asking this in order to make sure that the possibility was ruled out at an early stage.

Ann

Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Forum Admin on December 08, 2017, 10:45:43 AM
DNA testing confirmed.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Kalafrana on December 08, 2017, 01:05:11 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Lochlanach on December 09, 2017, 09:06:20 AM
The ROC continues to:

1. Refuse to recognize that the remains which have been scientifically identified as Nicholas and Alexandra's son and their daughter (we assume to be Marie). As a result, the Church has left the remains unburied and unacknowledged.

and

2. Refuse to recognize that the remains which were discovered in 1991 and scientifically identified as Nicholas, Alexandra, and three of their daughters. As a result, the Family were not buried under their Christian names at their funeral.

The latest news on the subject is ..... the ROC will recognise the remains if 'comprehensive proof' is provided . They are closely involved in the lab investigation - they weren't first time around - and are not in any rush to bring the issue to an end in time for any anniversary (so they say). They want the final say on their authenticity . They are dealing with 'holy relics' and not 'ordinary people' (I beg to differ, but that's another story). They have doubts and many questions that need answering  . They are still questioning how the Tsar can have had such appalling teeth ! Yes , really . Have they not read accounts of his aversion to dentistry and his chain smoking ? Or any accounts of his personal life for that matter ? One wonders .  On the plus side the investigation seems likely to be completed in 2018.

Unfortunately, many people who are made saints are portrayed as 'angels' in their real lives and have to be seen as pure, innocent, individuals. They may have not been 'ordinary' people-no matter how much they wanted to-but they were people. The Church seem to forget that.

I suggest they read the private correspondence between N and A , and OTMA's letters and diaries too . That would be a start , although they may not enjoy what they find. They were flawed and complex people  just like everybody else. But if an institution , or individuals , wish to focus on the spiritual rather than the human , the scientific and the historical ...that's where we part company.
Title: Re: INVESTIGATION OF THE ROMANOV REMAINS HAS BEEN REOPENED
Post by: Jeremiah on December 09, 2017, 10:14:02 AM
From the Report of the holy Synod commission on the canonization of saints with respect to the martyrdom of the royal family:

"Considering the sum total of the review of the governing and ecclesiastical activity of Russia's last Emperor, the Commission did not find sufficient grounds for his canonization. However, the Orthodox Church has examples of even those Christians who led a sinful life following Baptism but who were added to the ranks of saints. Their canonization took place precisely because they atoned for their sins not only by repentance but by special feats, through martyrdom or asceticism…

The majority of witnesses of the last days of the Romanovs speak of the prisoners of the Tobolsk governor's and the Ekaterinburg Ipatiev's houses as people who suffered and, in spite of all the insults and abuse, led a devout life. In the confined Royal Family, we see people, who sincerely strived to bring out the message of the Gospel in their lives…

It is precisely in the interpretation of this feat of the Royal Family, that the Commission unanimously finds it possible to present the question of adding the names of [the IF] to the ranks of Holy Passionbearers."

Those who are interested, can read the entire text here:
http://www.holy-trinity.org/feasts/nicholas.html