Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Romanov_Fan19 on February 24, 2016, 10:16:01 PM

Title: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on February 24, 2016, 10:16:01 PM
I Recently  Read  Greg King and Penny Wilsons book,  Fate of  The Romanovs  do you think  When the   Death sentence  was read out  they had the  Flight or Fight Response?
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Maria the Beautiful on February 25, 2016, 07:41:53 AM
I'm no expert on the subject, but from everything I've read about the final night the IF wouldn't have had time to form a FIGHT or FLIGHT response.  It seemed as though the shooting started shortly after the sentence was read so their immediate response most likely would have been FRIGHT. 
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Kalafrana on February 25, 2016, 02:37:54 PM
Or just completely stunned.

Ann
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Maria Sisi on February 25, 2016, 02:46:41 PM
I read in a book that Alexandra and Olga couldn't even finish crossing themselves before they were hit by the first rounds. That's how fast the guards started shooting after the death sentence was read.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 25, 2016, 03:21:32 PM
I think we will never know for certain because the Bolsheviks thought nothing of lying and the Family is in no position to let us know. I think that certainly they would have been surprised but with their strong Orthodox faith, probably commended themselves to God's keeping. It is my hope that they knew of little fear or pain, but we cannot be certain of this.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: starik on February 25, 2016, 05:30:22 PM
I believe Helen Rappaport in "The Last Days of the Romanovs" reports that Maria tried to get through the locked storeroom door. And that Tatiana tried to get away from Yurovsky as he approached her for the final shot, and then Olga also tried to get to her feet to get away from him.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Kalafrana on February 26, 2016, 06:18:15 AM
By contrast, those killed at Alapayevsk had plenty of time to react, which makes their fate yet more horrible.

Interestingly, the only one who put up any resistance was Sergei Mikhailovich.

Ann
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Maria Sisi on February 26, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
By contrast, those killed at Alapayevsk had plenty of time to react, which makes their fate yet more horrible.

Interestingly, the only one who put up any resistance was Sergei Mikhailovich.

Ann

Is it possible that Sergei Mikhailovich was simply unwilling to resign himself to god's will? Like the IF Ella, Vladimir, and the Konstantinovichi boys knew it was coming but accepted their destiny and came to peace with it. They were spiritually ready to go to their creator by the time they were walking to the mine shaft. Unlike them he simply wasn't ready to accept fate.

I hope that doesn't sound offensive because I'm sure like all the IF, and victims at Alapayevsk, he was a religious man but from what I've read about him Sergei like the rest of the Mikhailovichi thought differently about a lot of stuff. They didn't seem like fatalist or as religious as the others. They seem more like people of action and ready to do anything and weren't ones to just accept anything. I think his brother in his memoirs called himself and his brothers the black sheep of the family because they were different then the rest of them in so many ways because of their upbringing far from the capital.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: edubs31 on February 26, 2016, 09:55:10 AM
The element of surprise, as previously mention, naturally plays a factor as well.

The Alapayevsk victims were blind folded and led to their deaths. They had some time to consider the consequences and choose a course of action; whether that be to try and run (hopeless), fight (even more hopeless), or accept and make peace with God.

The IF murders were sudden and unexpected. A parallel can be drawn to GD Michael Alexandrovich's demise along with his friend (chauffeur?). There seems to have been some panic. I'm trying to remember the details off the top but didn't Michael run in one direction as his friend was shot to death, then in his bewilderment stumble back towards his slain friend? That of course was in the middle of a wooded area not an enclosed basement. Had the IF been lined up but untied in Pig's Meadow it stands to reason that some of them would have screamed and ran rather than prayed or fought back against the guards.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Kalafrana on February 26, 2016, 11:12:31 AM
I think you're right.

Alexei Volkov managed to make a run for it when he and other servants were lined up to be shot. This was out in the open, and I have a feeling that it was dark at the time. Also, I imagine the Bolsheviks would not have spent a huge amount of time and effort looking for him, as they would a member of the Imperial Family.

Ann
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: edubs31 on February 26, 2016, 01:06:57 PM
I think you're right.

Alexei Volkov managed to make a run for it when he and other servants were lined up to be shot. This was out in the open, and I have a feeling that it was dark at the time. Also, I imagine the Bolsheviks would not have spent a huge amount of time and effort looking for him, as they would a member of the Imperial Family.

Ann

Right. If someone is fleet of foot and is in the middle of a wooded area it's actually a wise calculated decision to take off and run. You can probably outrun a guard/soldier weighed down by a weapon, ammo, etc. People also tend to be terrible shots firing while they are running. And with any luck even a spray of bullet fire coming from multiple guns might either miss you or hit tree trunks rather than body parts.

I remember seeing a History Channel program ("Modern marvels" or something similar) where they had two trained shots fire with rifles at objects moving in a serpentine motion from maybe 50-meters away. Needless to say it took a while before they connected with their targets...Bit of a further distance, yes, but these guys were excellent marksmen, and that was in the middle of a field!

Perhaps there is a certain sense of "even if I managed to escape wouldn't the honorable thing have been to die at their side", or "to run and live while your loved ones are getting mowed down is cowardice". Personally speaking I don't think I could leave the others behind as helpless victims, even though staying by their side would guarantee my own death.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 27, 2016, 04:31:12 PM
It looks like Volkov realized what was going to happen and was still fit enough to run off. The two ladies with him Schnieder I believe could barely walk and Hendrikova may not have realized what was going to happen until too late. note these people were with a group of prisoners. I should also point out if Volkov took off through thick woods the guards may not have been able to get a clear shot at him or their bullets were either deflected or stopped by trees or branches. Believe it or not there are cases where rifle bullets have been defected by tree branches. The approaching darkness may have helped.

  As for Michael he did realize what was going to happen until the Chekists started shooting.

As for the IF they not only had no warning on what was going to happen but were trapped in a room with no way out.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on February 29, 2016, 01:20:18 PM
Wasn't there a smaller storeroom  behind the  Cellar  ,  Does anyone  know if it locked from the outside
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 29, 2016, 06:12:15 PM
I think the storeroom didn't have an exit.

After reading Volkovs account which I should have done before my first reply. He and the others were awakened past midnight. A guard told Hendrikova they were going to a different prison and then Moscow. and she thought they weren't going to be killed. Volkov realizing something wasn't right on the march asked a guard and the guard told him they were going to be shot he decided to run for it. he made a run when they were going through some woods around daylight and mentions falling down after the second shot was fired so the guards may have thought they killed him in part because they didn't chase after him. it could be both some of the guards and prisoners may not have been fully awake at this time. if they had been up a good part of the night.

Michael besides being taken by surprise when the guards started shooting he was most likely hit by one or more bullets and may not have been able to go very far before dying.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Lochlanach on March 01, 2016, 02:48:42 PM
By contrast, those killed at Alapayevsk had plenty of time to react, which makes their fate yet more horrible.

Interestingly, the only one who put up any resistance was Sergei Mikhailovich.

Ann

Is it possible that Sergei Mikhailovich was simply unwilling to resign himself to god's will? Like the IF Ella, Vladimir, and the Konstantinovichi boys knew it was coming but accepted their destiny and came to peace with it. They were spiritually ready to go to their creator by the time they were walking to the mine shaft. Unlike them he simply wasn't ready to accept fate.

I hope that doesn't sound offensive because I'm sure like all the IF, and victims at Alapayevsk, he was a religious man but from what I've read about him Sergei like the rest of the Mikhailovichi thought differently about a lot of stuff. They didn't seem like fatalist or as religious as the others. They seem more like people of action and ready to do anything and weren't ones to just accept anything. I think his brother in his memoirs called himself and his brothers the black sheep of the family because they were different then the rest of them in so many ways because of their upbringing far from the capital.

 Nicholas was likely expecting the worst at some point , although after 18 months imprisonment he may have dared to entertain dreams of exile not execution. The others still had hope - OTMA said so to the cleaning ladies on the day of their deaths. 
The ones who did not die in the first volley of shots in the basement seemed to both fight and fly.... sort of ,  or at least resist as best they could by crouching in the dark corners of the basement , Marie rattling the locked door and then MAA stuggling with Ermakov and his bayonet . THEY certainly didn't go peacefully accepting their deaths (OTMA hysterical , Alexei total shock) . But it was a sudden and completely unexpected attack  and if the circumstances of their execution had been different - ie given some minutes , even hours , notice by the Bolsheviks (not their style I know) then they MIGHT have gone to their deaths stoically . Alas for OTMAA it was an extremely traumatic ending.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on March 03, 2016, 08:18:13 PM
Maria in particular was in fight since she was trying to break the storage room doors open, and when she couldn't she tried to wrestle the bayonets away.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Lochlanach on March 04, 2016, 07:32:34 AM
Maria in particular was in fight since she was trying to break the storage room doors open, and when she couldn't she tried to wrestle the bayonets away.
Indeed  she was the only one who seemed to have the awareness and courage to  attempt to open those doors when everyone else was understandbly cowering in the corners as the bullets flew - although that increased the risk of her being shot . Which she was .
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on March 06, 2016, 06:02:39 AM
I can only imagine the horror they all felt when they realized what was going to happen.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 07, 2016, 12:11:02 PM
If the Bolsheviks had decided to take the IF for a ride so to speak and shot them at the 4 Brothers mine, which was their planned burial site. No one in the IF and Co would have had even a slight chance of escaping. There would have been too many guards. The IF would have been taken by surprise. Also Alexandra could barely walk and Alexei couldn't walk at all. As for the rest Nicholas was in good shape but he is probably going to shot first. Dr Botkin was old and sort of fat. I don't think he could have gotten far. OTMA were in fairly good shape but they are wearing white blouses that makes them good targets. as for the rest the men are most likely going to be shot first with Nicholas and Anna D was wearing a white dress or apron so would have been an easy target. lets face it survivors from Cheka executions were rare.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on March 08, 2016, 07:02:19 AM
Except that those murderers were not Cheka.  From what I understand, they were just a bunch of hired thugs.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 10, 2016, 10:28:25 AM
they are usually referred to as members of the Cheka who hired a lot of real nasty people. Yurovsky was later praised as a "Ideal Chekist".

Hendikova , Schneider and the 8 others who were murdered after Volkov escaped were killed in retaliation for the assassination attempt on Lenin. Thousands were executed. Including a number of ex-Tsarist era ministers:

Ministers of the Interior N.A. Maklov and A.N. Khvostov,
Assistant Minster of the Interior S.P. Beletski
Minister of War M.D. Belyaev
Minister of justice I.J. Shcheglovitov
executed outside Moscow 5 September 1918 along with 80 or 90 other people. Belyaev tried to escape but was soon caught and brought back. some one noticed that Fanny Kaplin who shot Lenin was an SR but all the people the Soviets killed off in retaliation who had no connection with the SRs or with the assassination.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on March 16, 2016, 05:20:25 AM
Typical of murderous regimes to go on a killing spree in retaliation for an assassination or an attempted one.    Most of the people killed probably had nothing to do with the attempt, or only had minimal involvement.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 16, 2016, 08:00:13 AM
Typical of murderous regimes to go on a killing spree in retaliation for an assassination or an attempted one.    Most of the people killed probably had nothing to do with the attempt, or only had minimal involvement.

Best example: Lidice. The fate of many was decided by a careless goodbye letter to a lover by a married man. In which there was one ambiguous line.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on March 16, 2016, 04:15:36 PM
Exactly.  Most of the people in that village had nothing to do with the assassination of Heydrich.   However, the Nazis wanted to make an example of them, to show the world the cost of defying Hitler and his mooks, and the people of Lidice paid that price.

The Bolsheviks were no different.  They were cut from the same cloth, no doubt about that.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 22, 2016, 03:19:11 PM
The book "A Lifelong passion" has Ryabov one of the killers accounts of what happened to Ella and the others:
They were woke up in the night told to get dressed then were blindfolded and had their hands tied behind their backs. Sergei m resisted knowing what was going to happen and was shot in the arm. After that he quit resisting and was blindfolded and had his hands tied behind his back like the rest.  They were then taken to the mine and  tossed in.  It looks like they had no chance at all to get away.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on March 22, 2016, 05:02:37 PM
Didn't Sergei  hit  one of the Assassins in the face
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on March 26, 2016, 07:12:22 AM
It was cold blooded murder all the way.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 20, 2017, 09:33:34 AM
I fail to see how Maria Nicholievna could have possibly run to a door and tried to get out of the murder room. I can double check with Greg King, but I don't recall ever hearing about this. The killers would have blocked the entrance door and they could scarcely have identified individual daughters under the best of circumstances, let alone in a smoke filled room.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Jeremiah on August 20, 2017, 10:27:55 AM
I believe Helen Rappaport in "The Last Days of the Romanovs" reports that Maria tried to get through the locked storeroom door. And that Tatiana tried to get away from Yurovsky as he approached her for the final shot, and then Olga also tried to get to her feet to get away from him.

I haven't read Rapaport's book. From where does she gets such details?
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: GDSophie on August 20, 2017, 01:19:27 PM
Maria in particular was in fight since she was trying to break the storage room doors open, and when she couldn't she tried to wrestle the bayonets away.

Anna Demidova tried to fight back with her pillow. After Anastasia got out of her initial shock she was also in fight as well as she too tried to wrestle the bayonets away. The Little Pair fought so hard to survive especially against men twice their size, it's heartbreaking really.

I fail to see how Maria Nicholievna could have possibly run to a door and tried to get out of the murder room. I can double check with Greg King, but I don't recall ever hearing about this. The killers would have blocked the entrance door and they could scarcely have identified individual daughters under the best of circumstances, let alone in a smoke filled room.

As much as I would have loved to believe Maria's inherited Romanov strength made her bulletproof and she was able to run to the doors and escape I doubt this happened. It's known that she ran to the other set of doors-that led to a storage cupboard?-to try and escape.

Except that those murderers were not Cheka.  From what I understand, they were just a bunch of hired thugs.

AND they were all-except for Yurovsky-drunk, including the group Ermakov had waiting at the burial site. If they were murdered outside instead of inside where there was nowhere to go some of them may have made it out of the clearing, but most likely would have been caught otherwise as their backs would have been exposed. OTMA and all the servants would have had a chance, Nicholas would have been shot by them all like what happened in the basement, Alexandra couldn't run and wouldn't leave Alexei behind. Botkin could have also been killed if he stayed to pick up Alexei and run. There's more possibilities of what could have happened if they had been shot outside. But I also read that the group waiting for them at the burial site where angry that they hadn't been brought to them alive as they wanted to have fun with the women before killing them. Disgusting thugs.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on August 20, 2017, 05:27:15 PM
Quote
drunk, including the group Ermakov had waiting at the burial site

And this murdering thug still has a street in Ekaterinburg named for him?  Why?  I can understand it in Soviet times, but the USSR has been gone for more than a generation now.  Why was that street not renamed?

Imagine a street in the U.S. named after Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy (both these men were mass murderers)?  I can't.  Well, the same applies here, IMO.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 21, 2017, 04:39:31 PM
I received an email this morning from Greg King, author of FOTR:

The bit about Marie flinging herself against the storeroom doors and pounding on them, trying to get them open, was from Kudrin's 1963 statement.  So only the storeroom door at the end of the room.  And he says as soon as this was noticed Ermakov shot her - probably the wound in the thigh (given that I'm still absolutely convinced that the skeleton exhumed in 1991 was Marie's, not Anastasia's, who was only found ten years back), as he aimed beneath the smoke.  And Marie slumped to the floor (though hadn't yet suffered any fatal wounds).

I hope that helps clarify!


So Marie did try to escape the murder room and was shot in the leg, likely by Ermakov, according to Michael Medvedv-Kudrin. This is not corroborated by any of the other killers. Also, the killers had little interaction with the grand duchesses while they were alive, so I am skeptical of the specific identification.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Превед on August 26, 2017, 04:15:17 PM
Imagine a street in the U.S. named after Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy (both these men were mass murderers)?  I can't.  Well, the same applies here, IMO.

How can you make such a ridiculous comparison when the US just experienced riots (resulting in a death!) after the decision to remove a prominent public statue of a man who lived by the sword (Robert E. Lee) and used it to defend institutionalized racism? At least compare him to John Wilkes Booth, Anders Behring Breivik or others who murdered heads of state and children for their own twisted political ideas, not your average sick psycho killers, who BTW can be said to have been morbidly celebrated by American pop culture in ways that truly would have been shocking to your average Soviet citizen.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Превед on August 26, 2017, 04:37:30 PM
And this murdering thug still has a street in Ekaterinburg named for him?  Why?  I can understand it in Soviet times, but the USSR has been gone for more than a generation now.  Why was that street not renamed?

Apparently it has been renamed. See ru.wikipedia.org: Ключевская_улица_(Екатеринбург) (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BB%D1%8E%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B0_(%D0%95%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B1%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B3)), Ключевская улица, Klyuchevskáya úlitsa (=Springs Street), Verkh-Isetsk, Yekaterinburg
История
Улица появилась не ранее 1788 года (точное время формирования неизвестно). До революции 1917 года улица носила название 3-я Ключевская. Всего Ключевских улиц было девять, все они заканчивались у торфяного болота, близ которого, возможно, находились ключи, используемые местными жителями. В 1921 году улица получила название Лассаля, в 1960-х годах переименована в улицу Ермакова в честь Петра Захаровича Ермакова — большевика, организатора боевой дружины верх-исетских рабочих в 1905 году и одного из организаторов Красной гвардии на Урале. Однако более известен Ермаков как убийца царской семьи Романовых. В 1990-х годах из-за неоднозначного восприятия личности Ермакова улица его имени была переименована в Ключевскую.

=
History
The street appeared not earlier than 1788 (the exact time of formation is unknown). Before the revolution of 1917 the street was called the 3rd Kliuchevskaya. There were nine Klyuchevskaya streets, all of them ending at a peat bog, near which, perhaps, there were springs used by local residents. In 1921, the street was named Lassalya [after the German Socialist Ferdinand Lasalle], in the 1960s it was renamed Ermakova Street in honor of Peter Zakharovich Ermakov - Bolshevik, the organizer of the fighting squad of the Upper Isetian workers in 1905 and one of the organizers of the Red Guard in the Urals. However, Ermakov is more famous as the murderer of the imperial Romanov family. In the 1990s, because of the ambiguous perception of the personality of Ermakov, the street bearing his name was renamed Klyuchevskaya.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Превед on August 26, 2017, 06:28:56 PM
(both these men were mass murderers)? 
Besides, aren't mass murderers, like those Bolshevikhs, Breivik and the current Islamistic terrorists, something else than serial killers (and sex offenders) like Bundy, Gacy and Dahmer? The Norwegian mass murderer and megalomaniac Breivik is sick and psycho in another way than those repressed homosexual sadists Gacy and Dahmer, who interestingly both had mothers of partially Scandinavian ancestry.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: TimM on August 27, 2017, 12:06:45 AM
Quote
How can you make such a ridiculous comparison when the US just experienced riots (resulting in a death!) after the decision to remove a prominent public statue of a man who lived by the sword (Robert E. Lee) and used it to defend institutionalized racism? At least compare him to John Wilkes Booth, Anders Behring Breivik or others who murdered heads of state and children for their own twisted political ideas

To me, a murderer is a murderer.  Do you think that the loved ones of his victims care about the political beliefs, or lack thereof, of said murderer? 

Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: GDSophie on August 27, 2017, 01:52:41 PM
Quote
How can you make such a ridiculous comparison when the US just experienced riots (resulting in a death!) after the decision to remove a prominent public statue of a man who lived by the sword (Robert E. Lee) and used it to defend institutionalized racism? At least compare him to John Wilkes Booth, Anders Behring Breivik or others who murdered heads of state and children for their own twisted political ideas

To me, a murderer is a murderer.  Do you think that the loved ones of his victims care about the political beliefs, or lack thereof, of said murderer? 



Well, serial killers like Ted Bundy murdered for fun and because they were unstable. The Bolsheviks killed for a political purpose, even if it was a horrible purpose.
Title: Re: FIGHT OR FLIGHT RESPONSE
Post by: Превед on August 29, 2017, 01:41:06 PM
To me, a murderer is a murderer.  Do you think that the loved ones of his victims care about the political beliefs, or lack thereof, of said murderer?

Yes, they do is my impression. Family and friends are the most distraught when they don't get answers to the question "Why?". And it's easier to accept that they died for a higher end, fighting for their ideas and beliefs, as martyrs if you like, than as mere victims of robbers or perverts seeking satisfaction.