Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Having Fun! => Topic started by: GDSophie on September 10, 2017, 04:41:56 AM

Title: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 10, 2017, 04:41:56 AM
I was thinking about writing a story with Alexandra relenting and marrying Prince Albert per her grandmother's request in 1889, giving them time to have one/two children before his death in 1891. Nicholas, heartbroken, agrees to marry another Princess (undecided as of late) in 1890 and both have a number of children.

This changes England and Russia's history entirely: with an heir from Albert, George does not become King in 1910. Albert's son/daughter becomes King/Queen as they are considered old enough (19 in 1910) to sit on the throne. Alexandra doesn't have a chance at even becoming Queen, so will she be Dowager Queen or Princess?

This also changes World War I for them. Will England get involved or will the new monarch refuse to participate even with the government knocking on their door? And if the Romanovs see themselves removed from their throne, will Alexandra step in and demand them safety in England?

In Russia, Nicholas will now have a few years to learn of his duties per Alexander III's request 'he's married now so he has too buck up (grow up, that means)'. The events at the Coronation for the real Nicholas and Alexandra may not happen but Bloody Sunday will, however Nicholas will have a different reaction to the one we know off. Rasputin has no contact with the Imperial family. The 1905 Revolution will not happen either but will the 1917 Revolution occur? It all depends on World War I and how Nicholas handles it.

Because Nicholas named four of his children-Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Alexei-his made up children will have the same names. Two of his children-who we know as Olga and Maria-will not have their looks changed, except a few features here and there which they got from their mother but they probably won't have the same names. Tatiana and Alexei will look entirely different because their looks came from their mother's side, and a daughter with the name 'Anastasia' may not even exist in this AU. (As she was named for Princess Anastasia of Montenegro by her mother?)

Names for Alexandra and Albert's child/ren have been undecided as of yet, but I'm brainstorming.

Nicholas and unknown Princess' children as of order:
- Alexei, 1891. Unlike the Alexei we know, he does not suffer from haemophilia and isn't 13. At the start of the story-excluding the Prologue-he is 18 in 1909 when the story begins (date may change though). He takes after his mother's side like the real Alexei, so features are unknown of this late.
- Olga, 1893. 16 in 1909. Takes after father's side with similar features to the Olga we know.
- Tatiana, 1895. 14 in 1909. Takes after her mother's side.
- Unnamed son, 1897. 12 in 1909.
- Maria, 1899. 10 in 1909. Takes after father's side and keeps her saucers because I cannot erase them from her.
- Anastasia (name may be changed?), 1901. 8 in 1909. Takes after her mother's side.
- Unnamed son, 1903. 6 in 1909.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 10, 2017, 11:32:50 AM
Sounds interest.  Go for it!
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 10, 2017, 12:25:12 PM
Sounds interest.  Go for it!

I'm trying to decide on a Princess to be Nicholas' new bride, but it's hard to find one near his age that won't effect another country. My first option was Missy or Marie of Romania but I don't want to mess around with Romanian royalty, I'm already doing that to England and Russia's.

I'm accepting all the help I can get! Especially a title to this.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 10, 2017, 06:07:45 PM
Quote
I'm trying to decide on a Princess to be Nicholas' new bride, but it's hard to find one near his age that won't effect another country. My first option was Missy or Marie of Romania but I don't want to mess around with Romanian royalty, I'm already doing that to England and Russia's.

This clearly takes place in an alternate reality, so it really doesn't matter which member of Royalty that you bring in, IMO.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 10, 2017, 06:34:00 PM
Quote
I'm trying to decide on a Princess to be Nicholas' new bride, but it's hard to find one near his age that won't effect another country. My first option was Missy or Marie of Romania but I don't want to mess around with Romanian royalty, I'm already doing that to England and Russia's.

This clearly takes place in an alternate reality, so it really doesn't matter which member of Royalty that you bring in, IMO.

I want to keep most of the royal families in Europe like they are in real life. I wish there was a list of female royals unmarried and around Nicholas' age in 1890 I can pick from.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 11, 2017, 10:56:20 AM
Interesting idea.

Two ladies under consideration as brides for Nicholas were Helene of Orleans (1871-1951), who subsequently married the Duke of Aosta, a cousin of Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy, and Margaret of Prussia (1872-1954), youngest sister of the Kaiser, who married Prince Friedrich Karl of Hesse.

Both these gentlemen were well away from inheriting thrones, so your having Nicholas marry either Helene or Margaret would not create major complications with other royal families.

Otherwise, I thought of a daughter of either Frederik VIII of Denmark or George I of Greece, but all of them were Nicholas's first cousins, so putting them within the prohibited degrees of the Orthodox Church.

Had Alexandra married Prince Albert Victor, she would have been HRH the Duchess of Clarence. Had AV died in 1892 leaving a son (a posthumous son?), the son (Edward perhaps? AV was called Eddy by his intimates and signed himself Edward), the son would then become Duke of Clarence and Alexandra would continue to be Duchess of Clarence until her son married. At that point she would become  the Dowager Duchess of Clarence, to distinguish her from her daughter in law, unless by then her son was king or Prince of Wales, when she would continue to be Duchess of Clarence. As a parallel, Queen Victoria's mother remained simply HRH the Duchess of Kent after her husband's death, since there was no other Duke and thus no other Duchess to cause confusion.

Hope that helps

Ann

Since Nicholas was born in 1868
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 11, 2017, 11:34:50 AM
Interesting idea.

Two ladies under consideration as brides for Nicholas were Helene of Orleans (1871-1951), who subsequently married the Duke of Aosta, a cousin of Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy, and Margaret of Prussia (1872-1954), youngest sister of the Kaiser, who married Prince Friedrich Karl of Hesse.

Both these gentlemen were well away from inheriting thrones, so your having Nicholas marry either Helene or Margaret would not create major complications with other royal families.

Otherwise, I thought of a daughter of either Frederik VIII of Denmark or George I of Greece, but all of them were Nicholas's first cousins, so putting them within the prohibited degrees of the Orthodox Church.

Had Alexandra married Prince Albert Victor, she would have been HRH the Duchess of Clarence. Had AV died in 1892 leaving a son (a posthumous son?), the son (Edward perhaps? AV was called Eddy by his intimates and signed himself Edward), the son would then become Duke of Clarence and Alexandra would continue to be Duchess of Clarence until her son married. At that point she would become  the Dowager Duchess of Clarence, to distinguish her from her daughter in law, unless by then her son was king or Prince of Wales, when she would continue to be Duchess of Clarence. As a parallel, Queen Victoria's mother remained simply HRH the Duchess of Kent after her husband's death, since there was no other Duke and thus no other Duchess to cause confusion.

Hope that helps

Ann

Since Nicholas was born in 1868

Thanks Ann!

However, Helene and Margaret either did not want to become Russian Orthodox or was not allowed too by their father so they are out.

Alexandra and Albert are to marry in 1889 or 1890, giving them time to have a son (1890) and a daughter (1891) before Albert's death/a son in 1891 before his death. This places the son-who I've decided will be currently named Edward thanks to Ann and a daughter (name unknown)-second and third in line. I'm just pondering if 'Edward' should be effected with haemophilia or not, and if the unnamed daughter will carry the gene.

With Olga and Tatiana in regards to marriage aspects, Olga is suggested as a possible bride to Alexandra's fictional son 'Edward'. Because her year of birth is changed, maybe a wedding between the two royals is expected to happen before 1914, especially since 'Edward' becomes King in 1910. This guarantees Olga's safety if the Romanovs execution still happens, it all depends on the events planned out. ;)

Choices from Nicholas' wife, with more to come and suggestions are welcome!:

Princess Helena of Waldeck and Pyrmont (Helene Friederike Auguste; later Duchess of Albany; 17 February 1861 – 1 September 1922)

Duchess Elisabeth Alexandrine of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (10 August 1869 – 3 September 1955) (Although closer to Nicholas' age then the others, she becomes Queen of Denmark. This will effect the Danish throne so she's second.)

Princess Charlotte Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Louise of Hesse-Kassel (Elisabeth Charlotte Alexandra Maria Luisa von Hessen-Kassel; 13 June 1861 – 7 June 1955) 

Duchess Helene of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (16 January 1857 – 28 August 1936)

Princess Marie Elisabeth of Saxe-Meiningen (23 September 1853 – 22 February 1923)   
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 11, 2017, 12:15:16 PM
Interesting idea.

Two ladies under consideration as brides for Nicholas were Helene of Orleans (1871-1951), who subsequently married the Duke of Aosta, a cousin of Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy, and Margaret of Prussia (1872-1954), youngest sister of the Kaiser, who married Prince Friedrich Karl of Hesse.

Both these gentlemen were well away from inheriting thrones, so your having Nicholas marry either Helene or Margaret would not create major complications with other royal families.

Otherwise, I thought of a daughter of either Frederik VIII of Denmark or George I of Greece, but all of them were Nicholas's first cousins, so putting them within the prohibited degrees of the Orthodox Church.

Had Alexandra married Prince Albert Victor, she would have been HRH the Duchess of Clarence. Had AV died in 1892 leaving a son (a posthumous son?), the son (Edward perhaps? AV was called Eddy by his intimates and signed himself Edward), the son would then become Duke of Clarence and Alexandra would continue to be Duchess of Clarence until her son married. At that point she would become  the Dowager Duchess of Clarence, to distinguish her from her daughter in law, unless by then her son was king or Prince of Wales, when she would continue to be Duchess of Clarence. As a parallel, Queen Victoria's mother remained simply HRH the Duchess of Kent after her husband's death, since there was no other Duke and thus no other Duchess to cause confusion.

Hope that helps

Ann

Since Nicholas was born in 1868

Thanks Ann!

However, Helene and Margaret either did not want to become Russian Orthodox or was not allowed too by their father so they are out.

Alexandra and Albert are to marry in 1889 or 1890, giving them time to have a son (1890) and a daughter (1891) before Albert's death/a son in 1891 before his death. This places the son-who I've decided will be currently named Edward thanks to Ann and a daughter (name unknown)-second and third in line. I'm just pondering if 'Edward' should be effected with haemophilia or not, and if the unnamed daughter will carry the gene.

With Olga and Tatiana in regards to marriage aspects, Olga is suggested as a possible bride to Alexandra's fictional son 'Edward'. Because her year of birth is changed, maybe a wedding between the two royals is expected to happen before 1914, especially since 'Edward' becomes King in 1910. This guarantees Olga's safety if the Romanovs execution still happens, it all depends on the events planned out. ;)

Choices from Nicholas' wife, with more to come and suggestions are welcome!:

Princess Helena of Waldeck and Pyrmont (Helene Friederike Auguste; later Duchess of Albany; 17 February 1861 – 1 September 1922)

Duchess Elisabeth Alexandrine of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (10 August 1869 – 3 September 1955) (Although closer to Nicholas' age then the others, she becomes Queen of Denmark. This will effect the Danish throne so she's second.)

Princess Charlotte Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Louise of Hesse-Kassel (Elisabeth Charlotte Alexandra Maria Luisa von Hessen-Kassel; 13 June 1861 – 7 June 1955) 

Duchess Helene of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (16 January 1857 – 28 August 1936)

Princess Marie Elisabeth of Saxe-Meiningen (23 September 1853 – 22 February 1923)   


Wrong Alexandrine, apologies! Either way, she isn't really a good candidate because I don't know much about her.

Also, what would a daughter of a Duke of Clarence and Avondale be called? Princess _____, Duchess of Clarence and Avondale? Probably not because she's not her brothers wife!

And any suggestions on nicknames for Alice? (This is not directed at Alexandra; her fictional daughters name may be Alice.)
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 11, 2017, 02:33:43 PM
All your candidates are quite a bit older than Nicholas, apart from Elizabeth of Mecklenburg, which would really rule them out, given that Nicholas was heir apparent. The only royal husband I can think of who was more than a few months younger than his wife was Haakon VII of Norway, who was three years younger than Maud of Wales. However, at the time of their marriage, Haakon merely the second son of Frederik VIII of Denmark, and his elder brother, the future Christian X, could be expected to marry and produce sons, as indeed he did.

I wonder whether the most realistic solution would be to invent someone - add an extra daughter to an existing family (CS Forester gave the Duke of Wellington a fictitious sister, for example).

The fictitious daughter of the Duke of Clarence and Avondale would be Princess X of Clarence and Avondale, but probably just referred to as Princess X of Clarence.  How about Princess Charlotte of Clarence?

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 11, 2017, 03:18:37 PM
All your candidates are quite a bit older than Nicholas, apart from Elizabeth of Mecklenburg, which would really rule them out, given that Nicholas was heir apparent. The only royal husband I can think of who was more than a few months younger than his wife was Haakon VII of Norway, who was three years younger than Maud of Wales. However, at the time of their marriage, Haakon merely the second son of Frederik VIII of Denmark, and his elder brother, the future Christian X, could be expected to marry and produce sons, as indeed he did.

I wonder whether the most realistic solution would be to invent someone - add an extra daughter to an existing family (CS Forester gave the Duke of Wellington a fictitious sister, for example).

The fictitious daughter of the Duke of Clarence and Avondale would be Princess X of Clarence and Avondale, but probably just referred to as Princess X of Clarence.  How about Princess Charlotte of Clarence?

Ann

It was an idea to create a fictional Princess, and it may be a better option. She was going to be the eldest daughter (1868) to Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein and Princess Helena of the United Kingdom. Now it's the only matter of finding her a suitable name, like Alice Beatrice to honour her aunts. She would take the name 'Catherine' instead of Alexandra when she married Nicholas (because Alix took the name Alexandra when she married Albert).

Thank you, Ann! Alexandra's fictional daughter Alice goes by one of her middle names, Charlotte, like her great-grandmother did before her. So her full title would be Princess Alice Charlotte Victoria of Clarence.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 12, 2017, 11:38:07 AM
Well, good luck with this story.

Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 12, 2017, 11:59:07 AM
Thank you Tim! I'll post excerpts as I go along.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 12, 2017, 05:30:55 PM
Quote
I'll post excerpts as I go along.

I look forward to reading them.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 12, 2017, 05:41:42 PM
Princess Bathildis of Schaumburg-Lippe, born in 1873 in  Ratiborschitz / Ratibořice in Bohemia, would be ideal because:

- She was born and grew up in Slavophone surroundings, (without being an impossible Catholic). Should not be underestimated when it comes to giving the character an emotional bond to Russia as her adopted homeland. Especially the sort of serendipitous bond that comes from servants, tenants, surroundings etc. speaking a Slavic language as a "kitchen tongue" around her.

- The contrasts between the "what-ifs" and what really happened are so intriguing: In reality she married the last reigning prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont (3 years older than NII) and became the mother of the infamous Nazi Prince Josias of Waldeck-Pyrmont (and great grandmother of the current handicapped hereditary prince) and through her daughter Helene, Hereditary Grand Duchess of Oldenburg, great grandmother of current German right-wing politician Beatrix von Storch née Duchess of Oldenburg. And her two younger sons both married Countesses Platen-Hallermund of Sehlendorf, closely related (by family and geography) to the Counts Platen-Hallermund of Weissenhaus and Friederikenhof, the erstwhile employers of Franziska Schanzkowska as an agricultural labourer.

Of course the fact that she was a younger daughter of the non-reigning prince of a secondogeniture of a very minor state speaks against the likelyhood of her marrying one of the world's most powerful monarchs at the time. But nearly all her siblings married well, one actually a king and another nearly a (Slavophone, Orthodox) king, so the family had ambitions / standards. Two of her brothers had a Romanov mother-in-law and one sister had a Russian Grand Duchess as sister-in-law.

For more about her, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Bathildis_of_Schaumburg-Lippe
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Bathildis_of_Schaumburg-Lippe)
Interestingly the name Bathildis (with original Proto-Germanic or Gothic final s) mirrors the etymological original of Alix's name: Adalheidis
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 13, 2017, 02:23:01 AM
Princess Bathildis of Schaumburg-Lippe, born in 1873 in  Ratiborschitz / Ratibořice in Bohemia, would be ideal because:

- She was born and grew up in Slavophone surroundings, (without being an impossible Catholic). Should not be underestimated when it comes to giving the character an emotional bond to Russia as her adopted homeland. Especially the sort of serendipitous bond that comes from servants, tenants, surroundings etc. speaking a Slavic language as a "kitchen tongue" around her.

- The contrasts between the "what-ifs" and what really happened are so intriguing: In reality she married the last reigning prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont (3 years older than NII) and became the mother of the infamous Nazi Prince Josias of Waldeck-Pyrmont (and great grandmother of the current handicapped hereditary prince) and through her daughter Helene, Hereditary Grand Duchess of Oldenburg, great grandmother of current German right-wing politician Beatrix von Storch née Duchess of Oldenburg. And her two younger sons both married Countesses Platen-Hallermund of Sehlendorf, closely related (by family and geography) to the Counts Platen-Hallermund of Weissenhaus and Friederikenhof, the erstwhile employers of Franziska Schanzkowska as an agricultural labourer.

Of course the fact that she was a younger daughter of the non-reigning prince of a secondogeniture of a very minor state speaks against the likelyhood of her marrying one of the world's most powerful monarchs at the time. But nearly all her siblings married well, one actually a king and another nearly a (Slavophone, Orthodox) king, so the family had ambitions / standards. Two of her brothers had a Romanov mother-in-law and one sister had a Russian Grand Duchess as sister-in-law.

For more about her, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Bathildis_of_Schaumburg-Lippe
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Bathildis_of_Schaumburg-Lippe)
Interestingly the name Bathildis (with original Proto-Germanic or Gothic final s) mirrors the etymological original of Alix's name: Adalheidis

She could definitely be a runner up! Her German roots however, considering the Bohemian Court was predominantly German, may have a few problems with Marie and Alexander. He only allowed Nicholas to marry Alix on his deathbed, and Nicholas' wedding is moved to 1890 in this story. Making a fictional other daughter to Princess Helena is much easier, considering I could create her while staying truth to her upbringing-similar to her mother's and sisters-and because she would be predominantly English-even though her father was German-thanks to Victoria wanting Helena to stay close to her, Marie and Alexander wouldn't have a problem with a more English-raised Princess. And Princess Alexandra, Marie's sister, could vouch for her ;).
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 13, 2017, 03:46:33 AM
A fictitious daughter of Christian and Helena born in 1868 would be a sensible age to marry in 1890, but Nicholas would still be rather young - the ideal age for royal bridegrooms was 26.

However, fitting her in between Christian Victor, born 14 April 1867, and Albert, born 28 February 1869, is going to be a bit of a squeeze - three children in 22 months. You might be better putting her between Helena Victoria, born 3 May 1870, and Marie Louise, born 12 August 1872. Some time in the early summer of 1871 would fit, and she would then be 19 in 1890.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 13, 2017, 04:35:51 AM
A fictitious daughter of Christian and Helena born in 1868 would be a sensible age to marry in 1890, but Nicholas would still be rather young - the ideal age for royal bridegrooms was 26.

However, fitting her in between Christian Victor, born 14 April 1867, and Albert, born 28 February 1869, is going to be a bit of a squeeze - three children in 22 months. You might be better putting her between Helena Victoria, born 3 May 1870, and Marie Louise, born 12 August 1872. Some time in the early summer of 1871 would fit, and she would then be 19 in 1890.

Ann

Her birthday was going to be 3 July, 1868 but I can easily change it to 1871. I thought 1890 would be a good year, as for the planned story to work Alexander has to still be alive; 1890-1894. 1893 could possibly be a better year.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 13, 2017, 07:24:34 AM
19 was a reasonable age for princesses to marry at that time, so you can realistically set the marriage in 1890.

Marie Louise was the only one the the Schleswig-Holsteins to marry, and did so aged 18. The marriage was a disaster, but that was another matter.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 13, 2017, 08:09:10 AM
19 was a reasonable age for princesses to marry at that time, so you can realistically set the marriage in 1890.

Marie Louise was the only one the the Schleswig-Holsteins to marry, and did so aged 18. The marriage was a disaster, but that was another matter.

Ann

I'm so bad at math I thought Nicholas was 20 in 1890, which he wasn't he was 23. A reasonable age for him to be married?
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 13, 2017, 11:22:59 AM
Nicholas was born in 1868 so he was 22 in 1890.

Slightly on the young side to marry by contemporary standards (age at marriage was generally going up) but not likely to cause any major concerns.

The youngest royal bridegroom of that era was Alfonso XIII of Spain, who married within days of his 20th birthday in 1906. As a posthumous only son with no uncles and the rival Carlist line very much around, he had a particular need to produce heirs.

Karl Eduard, Duke of Coburg married in 1905 as soon as he was 21. He was in a similar position to Alfonso, though without the rivals.

Andrew of Greece and Alice of Battenberg, parents of the Duke of Edinburgh, were 21 and 18 when they married in 1903, and there was some family concern that they were too young.

I think some comments on the lines of 'Nicky is really rather young' would be appropriate. Albert Victor was 26 in 1890, so at the perfect age.

Hope that helps

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 13, 2017, 11:49:34 AM
Nicholas was born in 1868 so he was 22 in 1890.

Slightly on the young side to marry by contemporary standards (age at marriage was generally going up) but not likely to cause any major concerns.

The youngest royal bridegroom of that era was Alfonso XIII of Spain, who married within days of his 20th birthday in 1906. As a posthumous only son with no uncles and the rival Carlist line very much around, he had a particular need to produce heirs.

Karl Eduard, Duke of Coburg married in 1905 as soon as he was 21. He was in a similar position to Alfonso, though without the rivals.

Andrew of Greece and Alice of Battenberg, parents of the Duke of Edinburgh, were 21 and 18 when they married in 1903, and there was some family concern that they were too young.

I think some comments on the lines of 'Nicky is really rather young' would be appropriate. Albert Victor was 26 in 1890, so at the perfect age.

Hope that helps

Ann

See, not good at counting it seems. ;D

I'll make sure to remember that. ;) Do you know any royals who married at a young age before 1890? I could have someone use it as a counter-argument to the 'Nicky is really rather young' comments.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 13, 2017, 02:17:51 PM
Prince Albert was 20 when he married in 1840.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 13, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
Prince Albert was 20 when he married in 1840.

Ann

Thank you Ann!
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 14, 2017, 12:47:40 PM
A small excerpt from Chapter 1! 'Lili' is the nickname of Princess Alice of Clarence, in case any of you were wondering who she was:

“Lili?” the voice of one of her younger cousins made her turn her head and directly look at Edward, or ‘David’ as he was known by in the family. “Your hat blew off.”

Her hand shot up to touch her head where, sure enough, her hat was not located. Instead she felt how her strawberry blonde hair had been pulled into a chignon early that morning. David lifted up his hand and handed back her hat, which she placed back in it’s rightful place, her cheeks flush as her relatives laughed to themselves.

“No, this is more worse.” she said, not catching her cousin’s confused expression. The press may have pictures of her staring into space while her hat blew away without even noticing.

“Pardon?”

“Oh, nothing.” she waved him off but a quiet outburst from her other cousin and David’s sister, twelve year old Princess Mary made them both look at her.

“Look!” she pointed discreetly, trying not to let her mother see. “They’re here!”

The ship, known as ‘The Standart’ headed straight towards theirs across the water in the distance, ready to pull up next to theirs before heading off to dock at port.

“I think I can see cousin Olga!” her other cousin, nine year old Prince Henry, pointed only to see be scolded by his mother, Princess Mary, for being rude.

“How do you know she’s Olga?” David asked. “She could be Tatiana.”

“I said ‘I think’, it wasn’t a statement.” Henry turned his head away from his brother, nose in the air.

“‘I think I can see cousin Olga’ would be a statement, Henry.” Albert, or ‘Bertie’ as he was known by, cut in.

“Mother told us she’s grown to be taller than the Grand Duchess Olga, so maybe.” her brother stepped into the conversation.

“Then it was probably her.” David nodded and the group of cousins went silent as they watched the Standart get in position to pull next to them.

Lili leaned forward and whispered in her brother’s ear; “Did Henry purposely not say a word with the letter ‘r’ or was he just lucky?” the quick jab she received reminded her not to be so rude, even when the victim was nearby and only nine years younger than herself.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 14, 2017, 01:54:56 PM
Smallish point.

Prince Henry was called Harry within the family.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 14, 2017, 03:04:14 PM
Smallish point.

Prince Henry was called Harry within the family.

Ann

Thank you Ann! I'll remember that for later.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 15, 2017, 11:37:19 AM
Quote
Prince Henry was called Harry within the family.

Just like the current Prince Harry.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 16, 2017, 06:27:21 AM
Quote
Prince Henry was called Harry within the family.

Just like the current Prince Harry.

I thought it was weird that everyone calls Prince Harry 'Harry' but William has no nickname the public knows him by.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 16, 2017, 07:04:32 AM
I thought it was weird that everyone calls Prince Harry 'Harry' but William has no nickname the public knows him by.

Very personable, charming and individualistic persons get nicknames more easily than more sedate and serious persons.

Do also note that William is a name that rolls easily off the tongue, composed of (appoximant) consonant  + vowel  + consonant + approximant + vowel + consonant in neat order. Henry has a rather cumbersome consonant pair in the middle (n+r), especially considering that the r is the beginning of a syllable that just fizzles out in a vowel, instead of ending solidly in a consonant, like in the name's Germanic original: Heimeric / Heinirih / Heinrich.

I see that Wikipedia also notes that Harry was considered the spoken form of Henry in medieval England, probably influenced by the French pronunciation /ãri:/ (or /ãnri:/ in the Middle Ages - do note that the absence of the sound /h/ makes the pronunciation easier in the last case.) So /hɛnriː/ may have developed as an über-correct spelling pronunciation.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 16, 2017, 07:39:54 AM
She could definitely be a runner up! Her German roots however, considering the Bohemian Court was predominantly German, may have a few problems with Marie and Alexander. He only allowed Nicholas to marry Alix on his deathbed, and Nicholas' wedding is moved to 1890 in this story. Making a fictional other daughter to Princess Helena is much easier, considering I could create her while staying truth to her upbringing-similar to her mother's and sisters-and because she would be predominantly English-even though her father was German-thanks to Victoria wanting Helena to stay close to her, Marie and Alexander wouldn't have a problem with a more English-raised Princess. And Princess Alexandra, Marie's sister, could vouch for her ;).

Well, aren't people tired of reading endless rehearsings of dramas starring Queen Victoria's English descendants, real or fictitious, in different roles? At one point one wearies of Berkshire and longs for Bohemia. If the story is about alternative history one can imagine AIII and MF rather accepting an Austrian daughter-in-law, reared on autocracy and on Slavic soil, rather than a liberal English princess.

Do note that although officially belonging to a German dynasty and a house closely allied with Prussia, Princess Bathildis' father was in Austrian service and even fought on the Austrian side in the German-Austrian War of 1866. Also, don't forget the interesting fact that Princess Bathildis' brother was married to NII's first cousin, Princess Louise of Denmark. That also shows that the anti-Prussian Danish court did not find the family too German. Even though MF no doubt thought her sister-in-law Queen Swan marrying her daughter off to this obscure German-Austrian-Bohemian princeling a mésalliance, she would of course have thought differently if her own daughter-in-law came from this family, with its tragic suicides and mental instability.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 16, 2017, 08:03:56 AM
I can imagine a touching, romantic scene where Princess Bathildis sings the later Czech national anthem with NII listening secretly and half understanding what she is singing:

Kde domov můj? Kde domov můj?
Voda hučí po lučinách,
bory šumí po skalinách,
v sadě skví se jara květ,
zemský ráj to na pohled!
A to je ta krásná země,
země česká domov můj,
země česká domov můj!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YavuZe_DQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YavuZe_DQ)

Russian:
Где дом мой? Где дом мой? = Gde dom moy? Gde dom moy?
Вода журчит по лугам, = Voda zhurchit po lugam,
Боры шумят по скалам, = Bory shumyat po skalam,
В саду сияет весны цветок, = V sadu siyet vesny tsvetok,
Это рай земной на вид! = Eto ray zemnoy vid!
И это та прекрасная земля, = I eto ta prekrasnaya zemlya,
Земля чешская, дом мой, = Zemlya cheskaya, dom moy,
Земля чешская, дом мой. = Zemlya cheskaya, dom moy.

And they end up singing the German version in a duet:
Wo ist mein Heim, mein Vaterland?
Wo durch Wiesen Bäche brausen
Wo auf Felsen Wälder sausen
Wo ein Eden uns entzückt
Wenn der Lenz die Fluren schmückt:
Dieses Land so schön vor allen
Böhmen ist mein Heimatland.
Böhmen ist mein Heimatland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGT1-19_uU8&t= (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGT1-19_uU8&t=49s)

English translation:
Where is my home, where is my homeland,
Water roars across the meadows,
Pinewoods rustle among crags,
The garden is glorious with spring blossom,
Paradise on earth it is to see.
And this is that beautiful land,
The Czech land, my home,
The Czech land, my home!
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 16, 2017, 08:51:55 AM
I can imagine a touching, romantic scene where Princess Bathildis sings the later Czech national anthem with NII listening secretly and half understanding what she is singing:

Kde domov můj? Kde domov můj?
Voda hučí po lučinách,
bory šumí po skalinách,
v sadě skví se jara květ,
zemský ráj to na pohled!
A to je ta krásná země,
země česká domov můj,
země česká domov můj!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YavuZe_DQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0YavuZe_DQ)

Russian:
Где дом мой? Где дом мой? = Gde dom moy? Gde dom moy?
Вода журчит по лугам, = Voda zhurchit po lugam,
Боры шумят по скалам, = Bory shumyat po skalam,
В саду сияет весны цветок, = V sadu siyet vesny tsvetok,
Это рай земной на вид! = Eto ray zemnoy vid!
И это та прекрасная земля, = I eto ta prekrasnaya zemlya,
Земля чешская, дом мой, = Zemlya cheskaya, dom moy,
Земля чешская, дом мой. = Zemlya cheskaya, dom moy.

And they end up singing the German version in a duet:
Wo ist mein Heim, mein Vaterland?
Wo durch Wiesen Bäche brausen
Wo auf Felsen Wälder sausen
Wo ein Eden uns entzückt
Wenn der Lenz die Fluren schmückt:
Dieses Land so schön vor allen
Böhmen ist mein Heimatland.
Böhmen ist mein Heimatland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGT1-19_uU8&t= (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGT1-19_uU8&t=49s)

English translation:
Where is my home, where is my homeland,
Water roars across the meadows,
Pinewoods rustle among crags,
The garden is glorious with spring blossom,
Paradise on earth it is to see.
And this is that beautiful land,
The Czech land, my home,
The Czech land, my home!

You're definitely selling me the idea of Princess Bathildis being Nicholas' wife. The scene you've thought of is very sweet to imagine. With the amount I've written no Princess, real or fictional, is mentioned by their birth name, instead they are called 'Catherine' which is the name Nicholas' wife takes in my novel instead of Alexandra. Their birth name is only mentioned once by the fictional Princess Alice, but I can easily change the name chosen for the fictional Empress to Bathildis.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 16, 2017, 09:25:59 AM
With Bathildis being born in 1873, her and Nicholas' wedding day will be changed to 1892, meaning:

Alexei: 1893
Olga: 1895
Tatiana: 1897
Maria: 1899
Anastasia: 1901
Dmitri: 1903
Constantine: 1905

For my plot to work, all the girls have to be of age (16+) in 1918 so the two new sons have been moved to be younger than OTMA.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 16, 2017, 11:32:41 AM
Quote
With Bathildis being born in 1973, her and Nicholas' wedding day will be changed to 1892

She married Nicholas 81 years before she was even born!?  How'd she do that!?

Okay, I know you meant to type 1873.  I've fixed that.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 16, 2017, 12:03:42 PM
Quote
With Bathildis being born in 1973, her and Nicholas' wedding day will be changed to 1892

She married Nicholas 81 years before she was even born!?  How'd she do that!?

Okay, I know you meant to type 1873.  I've fixed that.

Thanks Tim! With 8 and 9 being right next to each other on my keyboard, and being so used to writing 19__ it's hard to remember to double check and think everything is right when it really isn't!
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 16, 2017, 05:22:55 PM
You're definitely selling me the idea of Princess Bathildis being Nicholas' wife. The scene you've thought of is very sweet to imagine. With the amount I've written no Princess, real or fictional, is mentioned by their birth name, instead they are called 'Catherine' which is the name Nicholas' wife takes in my novel instead of Alexandra. Their birth name is only mentioned once by the fictional Princess Alice, but I can easily change the name chosen for the fictional Empress to Bathildis.

Cool, I'm thrilled to have provided you with inspiration! I would also like to point you to a marvellous satire of Princess Bathildis' ancestral Schaumburg-Lippe, one of the smallest member states of the German Empire. See Hermann Löns: Duodez (http://www.literaturatlas.de/~lc10/duodezvoll.html), which you can translate in Google Translate, for a charmingly mocking description by a one-time local newspaper editor, who became a half-famous German author, of the state ruled by her uncle and cousin.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 16, 2017, 05:26:12 PM
Quote
Thanks Tim! With 8 and 9 being right next to each other on my keyboard, and being so used to writing 19__ it's hard to remember to double check and think everything is right when it really isn't!

And, of course, after a certain time, you can't go back and fix your posts.  Only Mods can do that.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 16, 2017, 06:02:52 PM
With Bathildis being born in 1873, her and Nicholas' wedding day will be changed to 1892, meaning:

Alexei: 1893
Olga: 1895
Tatiana: 1897
Maria: 1899
Anastasia: 1901
Dmitri: 1903
Constantine: 1905

With their mother being a nominal Bohemian they would perhaps go for a common Slavic name, perhaps at least for the youngest? Ludmila / Lyudmila for a girl or Václav / Vatslav (= Wenceslaus - both of these Czech patron saints and also Orthodox saints) for a boy. Dragomir(a) would of course have been a wonderful way to name a child after MF, whose Danish name Dagmar probably is a medieval Danish version of Czech Dragomira, a nickname of Queen Markéta Přemyslovna, but unfortunately there is no Orthodox saint called Dragomir or Dragomira.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 16, 2017, 06:11:50 PM
History stuff: If you have Bloody Sunday you are going to have to have the 1905 Revolution. As for Russia in WW I it will be the same as in real life.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 17, 2017, 04:04:11 AM
A little more additional information on Princess Bathildis' background:
- The castle where she was born, Ratiborschitz / Ratibořice, had hosted Emperor Alexander I in June 1813, when he had talks with Metternich about the final campaign againt Napoleon. At that time the castle was owned by Metternich' lover Wilhelmine, Duchess of Sagan / Żagań.
- Ratiborschitz / Ratibořice was part of the Lordship of Nachód, which in 1843 (one year after it had been acquired by Bathildis' grandfather) consisted of 113 villages and hamlets, of which 12 had a German-speaking majority. The lordship had a population of nearly 50.000, nearly all of them Catholics. There were nearly 200 Protestants in 1840 and nearly 400 Jews.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 17, 2017, 04:11:24 AM
Dragomir(a) would of course have been a wonderful way to name a child after MF, whose Danish name Dagmar probably is a medieval Danish version of Czech Dragomira, a nickname of Queen Markéta Přemyslovna, but unfortunately there is no Orthodox saint called Dragomir or Dragomira.

There is a fantastically sad medieval Danish ballad about the death of Queen Markéta Přemyslovna / Margrethe Dragomira / Dagmar:
YouTube: Dronning Dagmar ligger udi Ribe syg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbbN2a-R9c)
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on September 17, 2017, 05:41:16 AM
I can imagine a touching, romantic scene where Princess Bathildis sings the later Czech national anthem with NII listening secretly and half understanding what she is singing:

Kde domov můj? Kde domov můj?

NB the song was originally written for a musical comedy and did not become an anthem untill 1918.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 17, 2017, 07:44:04 AM
With Bathildis being born in 1873, her and Nicholas' wedding day will be changed to 1892, meaning:

Alexei: 1893
Olga: 1895
Tatiana: 1897
Maria: 1899
Anastasia: 1901
Dmitri: 1903
Constantine: 1905

With their mother being a nominal Bohemian they would perhaps go for a common Slavic name, perhaps at least for the youngest? Ludmila / Lyudmila for a girl or Václav / Vatslav (= Wenceslaus - both of these Czech patron saints and also Orthodox saints) for a boy. Dragomir(a) would of course have been a wonderful way to name a child after MF, whose Danish name Dagmar probably is a medieval Danish version of Czech Dragomira, a nickname of Queen Markéta Přemyslovna, but unfortunately there is no Orthodox saint called Dragomir or Dragomira.

Well, I did mention changing Anastasia's name considering she was named for Princess Anastasia of Montenegro by her mother, and both of the youngest sons are completely made up so their names can be changed early into the writing.

History stuff: If you have Bloody Sunday you are going to have to have the 1905 Revolution. As for Russia in WW I it will be the same as in real life.

Not for Russia. With Rasputin not in the picture at all, Nicholas won't go off to lead the fighting himself leaving it to more experienced people who will most likely win more battles and boost the people's spirits. He'll be at Tsarskoe Selo.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: thebelgianhare on September 17, 2017, 08:15:50 AM
looking forward to it GDSophie - a fascinating concept. Looks like you're going to be able to have a lot of depth coming with it too.

I adore hard facts, (probably have some mania for them!), but sometimes fiction/alternative history, with it's What-Ifs and what may have beens can prove to be richly poignant and just as useful to consider too.

It's very different but some of my writing explores Toria's feelings for Nicholas (way before, during, and after the revolution(s)......and HIS love for Alix).

please keep us updated with your process hopefully you're enjoying it currently :)


Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 18, 2017, 06:34:55 AM
looking forward to it GDSophie - a fascinating concept. Looks like you're going to be able to have a lot of depth coming with it too.

I adore hard facts, (probably have some mania for them!), but sometimes fiction/alternative history, with it's What-Ifs and what may have beens can prove to be richly poignant and just as useful to consider too.

It's very different but some of my writing explores Toria's feelings for Nicholas (way before, during, and after the revolution(s)......and HIS love for Alix).

please keep us updated with your process hopefully you're enjoying it currently :)

It's very enjoyable to write, honestly; all the tiny details that have to be changed in this AU is fascinating to work out.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 18, 2017, 11:27:12 AM
Yeah, I know.  AU's are a joy to work on, IMO.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 18, 2017, 03:42:49 PM
Yeah, I know.  AU's are a joy to work on, IMO.

Right? Being satisfied with an AU where characters have happy or sad endings depending on life choices in and out of their control always feels great! (Not like that's a hint to anything... ;))

Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 18, 2017, 05:03:25 PM
As someone who is also involved in writing an AU, I have to agree.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 19, 2017, 02:00:44 AM
Writing 'factual' historical fiction is good too, especially when you are able to find a logical explanation for something inexplicable.

There is a strange episode in the career of Edward IV in 1469 when he was taken prisoner by Warwick the Kingmaker without any resistance. In my unpublished novel my explanation is a simple one - he has been prostrated by dysentery and is unable to flee.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 19, 2017, 06:40:12 AM
Writing 'factual' historical fiction is good too, especially when you are able to find a logical explanation for something inexplicable.

There is a strange episode in the career of Edward IV in 1469 when he was taken prisoner by Warwick the Kingmaker without any resistance. In my unpublished novel my explanation is a simple one - he has been prostrated by dysentery and is unable to flee.

Ann

Good explanation, Ann! It could explain why he was taken prisoner without even trying to flee beforehand.

In my story the first visit between the Imperial and royal family in 1909 was not just to visit but also to hopefully see a possible engagement/attraction between the new fictional heir, Alexandra's son Edward to the then fourteen year old Olga which leads onto the next visit in 1911. Edward is now on the throne as Edward VIII since the death of his grandfather, and the now sixteen year old Olga is old enough to be considered for marriage. The two have been writing to each other since 1909, and are good friends. Bathildis is hoping for a match between them, uniting two of the biggest superpowers in the world and is even planning Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia futures. She is unsure of suitable Princes for Tatiana and Maria, but she is eyeing-and writing!-to Queen Elizabeth of Belgium in hopes of marrying Anastasia to the heir, Leopold when they are old enough, they are both eyeing the late 1910s or early 1920s as a possible wedding date.

Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 19, 2017, 01:26:02 PM
The Kaiser's parents were first introduced when his mother was 14, though his father was 24, and they married when she was 17.

However, if you have a romance between your Edward and Olga in 1911, I think you had better have their parents insisting that they cannot marry for at least two years, and preferably a bit longer - until Edward is 21.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 19, 2017, 02:01:48 PM
The Kaiser's parents were first introduced when his mother was 14, though his father was 24, and they married when she was 17.

However, if you have a romance between your Edward and Olga in 1911, I think you had better have their parents insisting that they cannot marry for at least two years, and preferably a bit longer - until Edward is 21.

Ann

Alix, Nicholas and Bathildis all agree that if they do get married it'll be when they're both of age. Edward is 21 and Olga 18 in 1913, and she stays in England with Alix, Alice and Edward for a few months between June-August learning everything she needs to know about being Queen from Dowager Queen Alexandra, as she only has until January 1914, where they get married. That saves Olga from the events in Russia during World War I. But what about the others? (Dun, dun, dun-! :D)

I also help with a list of suitable suitors for both Tatiana and Maria, as it is discussed in the story.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 19, 2017, 06:53:46 PM
History stuff again: Nicholas II decided to take command of the Russian armies in 1915 on his own. GD NN was on the point of a nervous breakdown. Nicholas II could not replace him with a commoner. So Nicholas II took command. As for better generals Nicholas II didn't have that many. Often generals who were fired for incompetence managed to get themselves re-instated do to politics and the fact the Army was short of competent replacements. It should also be pointed out that Nicholas often ignored the advise of Alexandra and Rasputin. So Russia in early 1917 would have been pretty much in the same crises mode it was in real life.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 20, 2017, 05:03:06 AM
That's the fun with AU, you don't need to follow actual history.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 20, 2017, 09:10:55 AM
History stuff again: Nicholas II decided to take command of the Russian armies in 1915 on his own. GD NN was on the point of a nervous breakdown. Nicholas II could not replace him with a commoner. So Nicholas II took command. As for better generals Nicholas II didn't have that many. Often generals who were fired for incompetence managed to get themselves re-instated do to politics and the fact the Army was short of competent replacements. It should also be pointed out that Nicholas often ignored the advise of Alexandra and Rasputin. So Russia in early 1917 would have been pretty much in the same crises mode it was in real life.
That's the fun with AU, you don't need to follow actual history.

True. History may change slightly that there are more generals than in real life and GD NN didn't have a nervous breakdown if he had more help.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on September 20, 2017, 05:22:53 PM
Quote
History may change slightly

Yep.

In Days Of OTMA's Lives, for example, the whole family is still living in the 1930's.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 20, 2017, 06:33:24 PM
Quote
History may change slightly

Yep.

In Days Of OTMA's Lives, for example, the whole family is still living in the 1930's.

I love AUs where they live and have families of their own. PanHistoria's 'The Romanovs: One Last Dance' is one of them. They change many things so none of the lead Bolsheviks like Lenin and Trotsky live up to 1918, so they don't even last for a few months although they did exist. Olga carries haemophilia rather than Maria/Anastasia, but that's only because when they wrote it Alexei and one of the Little Pair hadn't been found yet so no one knew, but Maria still fears she has given it to her sons because (Spoiler Alert) the first blood tests during their trip to America had no conclusive answer for her until their second attempt, so she has the long lasting fear she carries it and has given it to her children.

I also have a list of possible husbands for Tatiana and Maria! Here is the lists!

Tatiana:
Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (George Philipp Albrecht Carl Maria Joseph Ludwig Hubertus Stanislaus Leopold Herzog von Württemberg, 14 November 1893–17 April 1975)

Surprisingly, that's it. Wikipedia can only take me so far.

Maria:
Frederick IX (Christian Frederik Franz Michael Carl Valdemar Georg; 11 March 1899 – 14 January 1972). Also Nicholas' first cousin.
George, Duke of Mecklenburg (German: Georg Herzog zu Mecklenburg; 5 October [O.S. 22 September] 1899 – 6 July 1963)
Louis Francis Albert Victor Nicholas Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma (born Prince Louis of Battenberg; 25 June 1900 – 27 August 1979). Only on here because he wanted to marry Maria, and it's sweet to think about. Also because in this AU they're not first cousins since Alexandra didn't marry Nicholas.

Anastasia, just for fun even though one has already been picked:
Leopold III of Belgium (3 November 1901 – 25 September 1983). If the Imperial family are safe in 1918 (depending what is planned) she marries him like their mothers wanted. They like each other anyway-just from writing letters and visits orchestrated by their parents since before/after they were considered as suitors for each other-so no pressure from anyone, just like the real Leopold and Princess Astrid of Sweden. Interesting enough, in my AU, Anastasia is good friends with Astrid of Sweden because the Imperial family was more open to their wider royal relatives than the real one. But it begs the question; does Anastasia take Astrid's place in the car crash of 1935?
Paul of Greece (14 December 1901 – 6 March 1964).
Prince George, Duke of Kent (George Edward Alexander Edmund; 20 December 1902 – 25 August 1942).

Off the top of my head for both Maria and Anastasia as I can't find the list but Tatiana's was much harder. I would appreciate the help for both older girls!
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on September 21, 2017, 07:25:23 AM
If you're prepared to have your Tatiana marry a mere Prince of the Imperial Blood, how about Oleg Konstantinovich (1892-1914)?

Or there are Boris of Bulgaria, George of Greece and Alexander of Serbia, now that Olga is already spoken for.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 21, 2017, 08:35:36 AM
If you're prepared to have your Tatiana marry a mere Prince of the Imperial Blood, how about Oleg Konstantinovich (1892-1914)?

Or there are Boris of Bulgaria, George of Greece and Alexander of Serbia, now that Olga is already spoken for.

Ann

Oleg Konstantinovich still, unfortunately, dies in my AU.

If Tatiana married a Prince of the Imperial Blood, it would be one of these men:
Prince Roman Petrovich of Russia (17 October 1896 – 23 October 1978)
Prince Igor Constantinovich of Russia (10 June 1894 – 18 July 1918)
Prince Constantine Constantinovich of Russia (1 January 1891 – 18 July 1918)

I was thinking of having Princess Elizabeth of Saxe-Altenburg die in late 1916 in a car crash, leaving thirteen year old Georgy and ten year old Princess Vera in the permanent care of Igor/Constantine and Tatiana depending on who she marries earlier that year, but they also take temporary care of two year old Prince Vsevolod and one year old Princess Catherine, Prince John and Princess Helena's children during the war.

It may remind you of Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Grand Duke Sergei taking in Maria and Dmitri after the death of their mother, and it is but a more happier-hopefully-ending to them instead. I don't think Tatiana and her husband will have children of their own, like Ella and Sergei.

If Maria married Paul of Greece (or Tatiana married George) it would place one of them in Greece during the time where King after King kept being booted off the throne and the royal family kept being exiled and titles stripped from them and then given back.

It seems Olga and Anastasia's futures are more quieter then Tatiana's-depending on who she marries-and Maria's, but that also lends the question of future brides for Grand Duke Dmitri and Grand Duke Constantine, the two fictional youngest children and sons of Nicholas and Bathildis.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on September 21, 2017, 04:31:31 PM
If you're prepared to have your Tatiana marry a mere Prince of the Imperial Blood, how about Oleg Konstantinovich (1892-1914)?

Or there are Boris of Bulgaria, George of Greece and Alexander of Serbia, now that Olga is already spoken for.

Ann

Oleg Konstantinovich still, unfortunately, dies in my AU.

If Tatiana married a Prince of the Imperial Blood, it would be one of these men:
Prince Roman Petrovich of Russia (17 October 1896 – 23 October 1978)
Prince Igor Constantinovich of Russia (10 June 1894 – 18 July 1918)
Prince Constantine Constantinovich of Russia (1 January 1891 – 18 July 1918)

I was thinking of having Princess Elizabeth of Saxe-Altenburg die in late 1916 in a car crash, leaving thirteen year old Georgy and ten year old Princess Vera in the permanent care of Igor/Constantine and Tatiana depending on who she marries earlier that year, but they also take temporary care of two year old Prince Vsevolod and one year old Princess Catherine, Prince John and Princess Helena's children during the war.

It may remind you of Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Grand Duke Sergei taking in Maria and Dmitri after the death of their mother, and it is but a more happier-hopefully-ending to them instead. I don't think Tatiana and her husband will have children of their own, like Ella and Sergei.

If Maria married Paul of Greece (or Tatiana married George) it would place one of them in Greece during the time where King after King kept being booted off the throne and the royal family kept being exiled and titles stripped from them and then given back.

It seems Olga and Anastasia's futures are more quieter then Tatiana's-depending on who she marries-and Maria's, but that also lends the question of future brides for Grand Duke Dmitri and Grand Duke Constantine, the two fictional youngest children and sons of Nicholas and Bathildis.

I said that Maria would marry Paul, which is a mistake no Greek is in her list so it's just Tatiana we're talking about.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on October 04, 2017, 03:54:39 PM
I also have a list of possible husbands for Tatiana and Maria! Here is the lists!

Tatiana:
Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (George Philipp Albrecht Carl Maria Joseph Ludwig Hubertus Stanislaus Leopold Herzog von Württemberg, 14 November 1893–17 April 1975)
Surprisingly, that's it. Wikipedia can only take me so far.

As an author you are probably interested in knowing that he has already been used as a literary model already: He is the inspiration for Jewish Hans Schwarz's aristocratic high school infatuation Konradin von Hohenfels in Fred Uhlman's brilliant, haunting short autobiographical novel "Reunion" from 1971. (Read it! It is so sad and beautiful!)  In reality Uhlman and the Duke met as university students, but many assume the inspiration is Claus von Stauffenberg, because of how the novel ends. But Philipp Albrecht didn't die resisting Hitler's tyranny, although he was a passive opponent of the Nazis.

Interestingly the enormous social and racial divide between the Jew Hans Schwarz, with roots in an Eastern European ghetto or shtetl, is stressed in contrast with Konradin's mother, who is an unnamed anti-Semitic, icy Slavic princess. (Not a Romanov, but a Polish princess, whereas Philipp Albrecht's mother was in reality an Austrian archduchess -  the sister of Franz Ferdinand with his Slavic duchess.)

In the novel their adolescent romantic friendship develops in the classroom of an elite high school in Stuttgart where the wall shows the imprint of two pictures that used to hang there before the WW1: Those of Philipp Albrecht's cousin the King of Württemberg and Emperor Wilhelm II. A very poignant image of Weimar Germany!

Speaking of the characters haunting Weimar Germany and shadows of the past: Do you plan any references to the two sons Bathildis does not get as a fictional character - and their comital Platen-Hallermund brides, with their links to the estate in Holstein where Franziska Schanzkowska worked?
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on October 04, 2017, 04:18:12 PM
BTW a perfect (or disastrous!) match for melancholic Olga would have been the tragic Grand Duke Adolf Friedrich VI of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Yes, 15 years her senior, but a fellow tortured soul and a bachelor untill his suicide. The same goes for his six years younger brother Duke Karl Borwin, if he didn't die in a duel 20 years old, also with regard to Tatiana.

And of course - in alternative history everybody would love to see one of OTMA married to one of the sons of Friedrich Karl of Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheim, chosen King of Finland and thus one of OTMA as Crown Princess and eventually Queen of all Finland, Carelia and in particular Virolahti Bay.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on October 05, 2017, 10:30:52 AM
BTW a perfect (or disastrous!) match for melancholic Olga would have been the tragic Grand Duke Adolf Friedrich VI of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. Yes, 15 years her senior, but a fellow tortured soul and a bachelor untill his suicide. The same goes for his six years younger brother Duke Karl Borwin, if he didn't die in a duel 20 years old, also with regard to Tatiana.

And of course - in alternative history everybody would love to see one of OTMA married to one of the sons of Friedrich Karl of Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheim, chosen King of Finland and thus one of OTMA as Crown Princess and eventually Queen of all Finland, Carelia and in particular Virolahti Bay.

Prince Wolfgang of Hesse-Kassel was a year older than Tatiana, and the Crown Prince. A perfect match for a Russian Grand Duchess, especially one who was the daughter of the most powerful man in the world.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on October 05, 2017, 11:19:19 AM
I note that Wolfgang survived until 1989, which is perhaps a mite too recent for you to use him - there will be people alive who knew him.

If you want a Hesse Cassel, there were two elder brothers killed in the First World War, Friedrich Wilhelm and Maximilian, born in 1893 and 1894 respectively.

They were all nephews of the Kaiser as well as great-grandsons of Queen Victoria, so very well connected.

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Превед on October 05, 2017, 12:55:31 PM
Oh, and do note that the Hesse-Cassel-Rumpenheims' estate Panker in Holstein is only 20 km from Friederikenhof / Weissenhaus, where Franziska Schanzkowska worked and Bathildis's actual sons' extended in-laws, the Counts Platen-Hallermund, lived
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on October 05, 2017, 05:21:12 PM
I also have a list of possible husbands for Tatiana and Maria! Here is the lists!

Tatiana:
Philipp Albrecht, Duke of Württemberg (George Philipp Albrecht Carl Maria Joseph Ludwig Hubertus Stanislaus Leopold Herzog von Württemberg, 14 November 1893–17 April 1975)
Surprisingly, that's it. Wikipedia can only take me so far.

As an author you are probably interested in knowing that he has already been used as a literary model already: He is the inspiration for Jewish Hans Schwarz's aristocratic high school infatuation Konradin von Hohenfels in Fred Uhlman's brilliant, haunting short autobiographical novel "Reunion" from 1971. (Read it! It is so sad and beautiful!)  In reality Uhlman and the Duke met as university students, but many assume the inspiration is Claus von Stauffenberg, because of how the novel ends. But Philipp Albrecht didn't die resisting Hitler's tyranny, although he was a passive opponent of the Nazis.

Interestingly the enormous social and racial divide between the Jew Hans Schwarz, with roots in an Eastern European ghetto or shtetl, is stressed in contrast with Konradin's mother, who is an unnamed anti-Semitic, icy Slavic princess. (Not a Romanov, but a Polish princess, whereas Philipp Albrecht's mother was in reality an Austrian archduchess -  the sister of Franz Ferdinand with his Slavic duchess.)

In the novel their adolescent romantic friendship develops in the classroom of an elite high school in Stuttgart where the wall shows the imprint of two pictures that used to hang there before the WW1: Those of Philipp Albrecht's cousin the King of Württemberg and Emperor Wilhelm II. A very poignant image of Weimar Germany!

Speaking of the characters haunting Weimar Germany and shadows of the past: Do you plan any references to the two sons Bathildis does not get as a fictional character - and their comital Platen-Hallermund brides, with their links to the estate in Holstein where Franziska Schanzkowska worked?

The two sons Bathildis had in real life will be mentioned only briefly as guests to Olga and Edward's wedding, they'll have the same names but different mother. They're lives don't actually change except different features and a different mother (most likely a Princess that didn't marry in real life will be chosen to fill in).

I've decided Tatiana will marry Igor in mid August 1916, like I explained on the last page. Grand Duchess Elizabeth will die in a car crash in late December 1916, leaving Vera and George in their care.

All I need now is Alexei, Maria and the two fictional sons Dmitri and Constantine's possible husbands/brides.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on October 06, 2017, 06:13:05 AM
Yeah, you're almost good to go here.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on October 18, 2017, 07:10:50 PM
Alexei Nikolaevich + Princess Helen of Greece and Denmark (Empress Elena Constantinovna of Russia)
Olga Nikolaevna (Catherine Alexandra Victoria Olga, Princess of Wales and Queen of England) + Edward, Prince of Wales
Tatiana Nikolaevna (HI&RH Grand Duchess Tatiana, Princess of Russia) + Prince Igor Konstantinovich
Maria Nikolaevna (Maria Mountbatten, Countess Mountbatten of Burma) + Louis Mountbatten
Anastasia Nikolaevna (Crown Princess Anastasie, Duchess of Brabant) + Prince Leopold, Duke of Brabant
Dmitri Nikolaevich + Princess Elizabeth of Greece and Denmark (Grand Duchess Ekaterina Nikolaevna of Russia)
Constantine Nikolaevich + Princess Ileana of Romania (Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna of Russia)

Look good?

(While looking for royals I noticed that Prince Philip looks a lot like his uncle and Elizabeth's father, Prince Nicholas of Greece).
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on October 19, 2017, 10:44:01 AM
Hm, Elizabeth of Greece and Denmark would be Elizaveta Nikolaievna rather than Ekaterina Nikolaievna.

will she and the fictitious Dimitri Nikolaievich have a happy marriage?

Ann

Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on October 19, 2017, 11:42:20 PM
Hm, Elizabeth of Greece and Denmark would be Elizaveta Nikolaievna rather than Ekaterina Nikolaievna.

will she and the fictitious Dimitri Nikolaievich have a happy marriage?

Ann



I mixed up Bathildis Russian Orthodox name with Elizabeth's, yes it would be Elizaveta.

Dmitri & Elizabeth-along with Olga & fictional Edward and Leopold & Anastasia-were already in love and will have happy marriages.

Alexei & Helen and Tatiana & Igor see each other more as friends, which is why Alexei and Helen only have one child and why Tatiana and Igor don't have any biological children of their own.

Maria and Louis' marriage is one sided, with Louis adoring his wife and Maria-only friendly and appreciating her husband as her cousin and friend-secretly not being happy with their marriage. The only thing they connect with is their children.

Constantine and Ileana, however, is another thing entirely. Constantine is sad that Ileana is more emotionally isolated and has trouble connecting thanks to her upbringing, while Ileana is envious of the happy childhood her husband had. Nevertheless they help with committees and attend balls, and also help raise their two daughters with a traditional Romanov upbringing.

And just for fun, their children:

Alexei & Helen:
1. Tsarevich Ivan Alexeevich
Olga & Edward:
1. Princess Anna
2. Princess Marie
3. Princess Beatrice
Maria & Louis (the children were given the title of Prince/ss with HRH titles on the behest of Nicholas):
1. Prince George Mountbatten
2. Princess Alice Mountbatten
3. Princess Elizabeth Mountbatten
4. Princess Louise Mountbatten
5. Princess Victoria Mountbatten
6. Princess Tatiana Mountbatten
7. Princess Helena Mountbatten
Leopold & Anastasia:
1. Princess Josephine Christine
2. Princess Clementine Marie
3. Prince Nicolas
4. Prince Philippe
5. Prince Alexis
6. Princess Charlotte Esmeralda
Dmitri & Elizabeth:
1. Grand Duchess Maria Dmitrievna
2. Grand Duke Nicholas Dmitrievich
3. Grand Duchess Anastasia Dmitrievna
4. Grand Duke Alexei Dmitrievich
5. Grand Duke Grigory Dmitrievich
Constantine & Ileana:
1. Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna
2. Grand Duchess Sofia Constantinovna
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on October 20, 2017, 12:23:18 AM
Quite a good cast you've assembled here.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: Kalafrana on October 20, 2017, 02:15:09 AM
Some big families here - Louis and Marie with 9 children!

Ann
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: GDSophie on October 20, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
Some big families here - Louis and Marie with 9 children!

Ann

I think Marie would actually want a big family with lots of children so seven like the amount Xenia had were made just for her. Leopold and Anastasia, a Catholic royal family, would usually have lots of children but Anastasia would put a stop if it went over six, I think. Dmitri and Elizabeth have five because Alexei and Helen only have one (Nicholas wants to keep the throne away from the Vladmirovich line) and Constantine and Ileana stop after two.

Quite a good cast you've assembled here.

I believe during the book-which spans between 1909 to 1929-only Anna (1916), Marie (1918), Ivan (1919), Beatrice (1920), George (1921), Josephine-Christine (1922), Alice (1922), Maria (1923), Elizabeth (1924), Clementine-Marie (1924), Nicholas (1925), Louise (1926), Nicolas (1926), Olga (1926), Anastasia (1927), Sofia (1928), Philippe (1928), Alexei (1929) and Tatiana (1929) are born, with Tatiana's birth drawing the book to an end including the start of the Great Depression.

The only ones not born and who are mentioned in the ending chapter are Alexis (1930), Helena (1931), Grigory (1932) and Charlotte-Esmeralda (1935).

Although with small roles and cameos if you will, only Anna, Marie, Ivan, Beatrice, George, Josephine-Christine, Alice and Maria have any significant roles as by the end of the book they will be 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 7, 6, and 5 respectfully. Half of the book taking place in England-Anna, Marie, Beatrice, George and Alice-and the other half taking place in Russia after/before Ivan and Maria are born.
Title: Re: A New AU fic - title, ideas, help with accuracy?
Post by: TimM on October 20, 2017, 06:35:42 PM
Sounds like you're having fun making this.