Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Mutley on February 01, 2018, 11:07:24 AM

Title: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Mutley on February 01, 2018, 11:07:24 AM
July 17th/18th this year will, as all of us realise, be the Centenary of the dreadful and pointless massacre of the Russian Imperial Family.

Does anyone know of any special commemorations that are being made?

Also, does anyone know of any Films or TV Documentaries that are being prepared? My own preference would be for strongly factual material based on historical and scientific research.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on April 06, 2018, 12:05:22 AM
Only a few months to go now...
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Sanochka on April 08, 2018, 03:23:18 PM
According to articles I've read over the past few months, no official commemoration is planned in Russia.  The reason is simple; nobody knows how to go about marking the Imperial Family's murder in a way that does not celebrate it, nor bring unwanted attention to the government's involvement with the assassination.   
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: DNAgenie on July 09, 2018, 07:10:23 PM
One week to go. It will be interesting to see what happens in Russia, quite apart from official recognition of the event.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: holynewmartyr on July 09, 2018, 07:49:50 PM
July 17th/18th this year will, as all of us realise, be the Centenary of the dreadful and pointless massacre of the Russian Imperial Family.

Does anyone know of any special commemorations that are being made?

Also, does anyone know of any Films or TV Documentaries that are being prepared? My own preference would be for strongly factual material based on historical and scientific research.

Here is what is being planned by the Russian Orthodox Church: https://royalrussia.news/2018/06/22/ekaterinburg-diocese-confirms-visit-of-patriarch-kirill-to-the-ural-capital/
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 16, 2018, 12:52:49 PM
https://royalrussia.news/2018/06/22/ekaterinburg-diocese-confirms-visit-of-patriarch-kirill-to-the-ural-capital/

There will be a series of events this week in Yekaterinburg. There will be a pilgrimage from the site of the Ipatiev House to the Four Brothers mine.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: edubs31 on July 16, 2018, 01:59:20 PM
Nice to hear. I can only wish to have been there myself on this hallowed anniversary. I feel like everything in Romanov fandom has been building up to this moment for many years now...and here we are, a full century since their murders and the announcing of the 'Red Terror' to the world.

Any estimates on crowd size for the procession? I hear more than 60,000 showed up last year and, with the combination of it being the hundredth anniversary along with the throngs of foreign guests still in Russia for the recently concluded World Cup, I'm wondering if this year's attendance could push past 100,000!

For those Romanov devotees out there who might be checking into this page today and tomorrow, are any of you present at Ekaterinburg/Ganina Yama? If so please don't spare us photos/news/stories of the events taking place.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: LauraO on July 16, 2018, 04:38:04 PM
It's strange almost that it's finally here, having passed 2am in Ekaterinburg, that the moment which, has indeed, been building up for so long has finally arrived. It's an emotional and reflective moment I'm sure for lots of us here, remembering the things that brought us here, and the ways we've changed since. I'll be attending a service of remembrance for the IF tomorrow at the Russian Orthodox church in London, which, like tonight, I approach with great emotion. Sending thoughts to all tonight, and great thanks to all of you and the forum for the part it has played in creating an enduring afterlife for the IF, even a century on.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 16, 2018, 11:03:47 AM
Helen Azar is leading a group that's there in Ekaterinburg. I don't have all the names, but have heard from Laura Mabee.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: edubs31 on July 16, 2018, 09:06:46 PM
Lisa) I was in contact with Helen a while back about this trip she put together & hosted. It looked like a dream and was surprisingly affordable. I gave some serious thought to attending but ultimately it wasn’t doable with my little guy Andrew having been born 14-months ago...I hope they’re having an amazing time and can relay some of their experiences to who aren’t able to attend.

Laura O) Lovely thoughts and I concur with you 100%. Im staying up late tonight and taking the morning off work tomorrow. I’ve been immersing myself in some Romanov themed material for the first time in quite a while. Putting a positive spin on an otherwise solemn anniversary.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 17, 2018, 12:05:27 AM
Yeah, the day is finally here.  I wish I could have been in Ekaterinburg myself,  but such a trip would cost a lot of money that I don't have.

Still, I'm glad that some of us are over there. So this board is represented. 

The Romanovs are remembered by all of us here at APTM.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on July 17, 2018, 06:40:14 AM
Sorry,

I created another topic for my tribute because I did not see this one.

I also hoped to be in Russia for the centenary, but life is full of constraints.

It was a very emotional moment that night ... Strangely, it was festive everywhere in France with the world cup, and I thought only of the imperial family.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Slege on July 17, 2018, 07:02:49 AM
Same for me Page (i'm french too)
Also RIP
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on July 17, 2018, 07:18:06 AM
Glad to know that we were at least two French people thinking about the imperial family tonight.

But I would have preferred to commemorate this centenary in 2058. It's so sad to commemorate in 2018 the centenary of the deaths of people born in 1901 or 1904.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 17, 2018, 11:55:21 AM
Quote
It's so sad to commemorate in 2018 the centenary of the deaths of people born in 1901 or 1904.

The Bolsheviks were violent, bloodthirsty criminals, and murdering innocent young women, and sickly boy, who probably would not have lived to see his 25th birthday, hammers that home.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 17, 2018, 11:52:54 AM
Never forgotten


(https://i.imgur.com/11K5X1l.jpg)
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on July 18, 2018, 06:10:40 AM
On another site, I posted this other pretty photograph:

(http://croissantdelune.c.r.pic.centerblog.net/mb3xejxk.jpg)

Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 18, 2018, 11:30:49 AM
That is a nice photograph of the family. 
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: DNAgenie on July 18, 2018, 10:48:04 AM
Quote
The Bolsheviks were violent, bloodthirsty criminals, and murdering innocent young women, and sickly boy, who probably would not have lived to see his 25th birthday, hammers that home.
You can certainly apply that description to the Urals Bolshevik committee, but it is too sweeping a statement to apply to the Russian Bolshevik Government.

The Moscow Bolshevik government had wanted to put Nicholas II on trial for his crimes against the Russian people, but that turned out to be impossible because of the military situation, as the White Russian armies approached Yekaterinburg. So they sanctioned the Tsar's  execution. Just that. They announced his death in a press release as soon as they received confirmation from the Urals Soviet.

But they discovered that the Urals lot had gone ahead and massacred the whole family, so the coverup began. No more official information was released beyond the message that the rest of the family was in a safe place. Moscow was forced to approve the assassinations retrospectively, as, after all, what else could they do? The Urals Bolsheviks were a loose cannon and Russia has paid a price for that ever since.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: DNAgenie on July 18, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
There is a comprehensive article about the current Russian attitudes to the Romanov deaths in The Moscow Times of July 19 2018.

See https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/centenary-russian-state-orthodox-church-odds-over-romanovs-62283 .
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on July 18, 2018, 11:12:04 PM
On the Great war forum has a posting on the Romanovs there is a memorial cross erected to them on the isle of Wight.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on July 19, 2018, 01:43:14 AM
Reply to DNAgenie

The imperial family is the symbol of a much greater horror.

Even Vladimir Bourtsev, even Maxim Gorky, found the Bolsheviks disgusting.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on July 19, 2018, 01:51:10 AM
I wanted to add for your second post, that in a French article on the imperial family there were the results of a poll.

The question was (to the Russians, of course): "What is for you the most important Russian personality of the twentieth century?"

Nicholas II was far ahead of Stalin and Lenin.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Nictionary on July 19, 2018, 11:57:08 PM
Quote
Quote
The Bolsheviks were violent, bloodthirsty criminals, and murdering innocent young women, and sickly boy, who probably would not have lived to see his 25th birthday, hammers that home.
You can certainly apply that description to the Urals Bolshevik committee, but it is too sweeping a statement to apply to the Russian Bolshevik Government.

The Moscow Bolshevik government had wanted to put Nicholas II on trial for his crimes against the Russian people, but that turned out to be impossible because of the military situation, as the White Russian armies approached Yekaterinburg. So they sanctioned the Tsar's  execution. Just that. They announced his death in a press release as soon as they received confirmation from the Urals Soviet.

But they discovered that the Urals lot had gone ahead and massacred the whole family, so the coverup began. No more official information was released beyond the message that the rest of the family was in a safe place. Moscow was forced to approve the assassinations retrospectively, as, after all, what else could they do? The Urals Bolsheviks were a loose cannon and Russia has paid a price for that ever since.

I agree with Tim and Page.  The execution of the Romanov Family was the signature act of a regime that would go on to brutalize its citizens for the next 70 years.  And while there are still some who argue that Lenin didn't necessarily sanction the execution of the whole family, I will say one thing: the late Richard Pipes pointed out in his chapter on the murders in The Russian Revolution that Goloschyokin had been able to get in and out of Yekaterinburg 5 days earlier, so they could have still evacuated the IF to Moscow if they had really wanted to.  One has only to look at a whole series of factors that make it clear Lenin had good reason to want the whole family dead.  Sergey Nechayev was one of Lenin's greatest influences.  Here is Vladimir Bonch-Bruyevich, Lenin's lifelong friend and secretary of Sovnarkom, remembering Lenin as he talked shortly after he came to power:

"Vladimir Ilyich often mentioned the cunning trick the reactionaries play with Nechayev through the light-fingered hands of Dostoyevsky. He thought The Possessed a work of genius, but sickening, for as a consequence people in revolutionary circles have started to treat Nechayev negatively, completely forgetting that this titanic revolutionary possessed such strength of will and enthusiasm that even when he was in the Peter and Paul Fortress, submitting to terrible conditions, even then he was able to influence the soldiers around him in such a Way that they came wholly under his influence.

People completely forget that Nechayev possessed a talent for organization, an ability to establish the special technique of conspiratorial work everywhere, and an ability to give thoughts such startling formulations that they were forever printed on the memory. It is enough to recall his words in one of his pamphlets, where he replies to the question “Which member of the reigning house must be destroyed?” He gives the neat answer: “The whole responsory.” And this is so simply and clearly formulated that it could be understood by everyone living in Russia at a time when the Orthodox Church was a powerful force and the majority of the people, in one way or another, went to church, and everyone knew that “the responsory” meant all the members of the Romanov dynasty. “Which of them are to be destroyed?” the most simple reader would ask himself, and there at a glance is the answer: “The whole Romanov dynasty.” It is simple to the point of genius. All of Nechayev should be published. It is necessary to learn and seek out everything he wrote, and where he wrote, and we must decipher all his pseudonyms, and collect and print everything he wrote.

And Vladimir Ilyich said these words many times."


Lenin's entire career as a revolutionary was launched after his brother was hanged for plotting to kill Alexander III.  He wanted revenge for his brother.  Lenin viewed class the way Hitler viewed race.  He wrote in The Slogans and Organisation of Social-Democratic Work Inside and Outside the Duma in 1911: "The liberal innocents prattle about the example of a constitutional monarchy like that of England. But if in a civilized country like England, a country which has never known anything like the Mongolian yoke or the tyranny of a bureaucracy, or a military clique riding roughshod over it, if it was necessary in that country to chop off the head of one crowned robber in order to impress upon the kings that they must be 'constitutional' monarchs, in a country like Russia we should have to chop off the heads of at least a hundred Romanovs in order to wean their successors from the habit of organizing Black-Hundred murders and anti-Jewish pogroms."
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Nictionary on July 19, 2018, 11:59:22 PM
And unfortunately, the Romanovs were just a fraction of the tens of thousands, if not millions, butchered by the Bolshevik government.  Here is a passage from Robert Payne'sThe Life and Death of Lenin:

"The ordinary human sins had no appeal for Lenin; his sin was pride, which devours all those who suffer from it. His pride led him to believe that he alone was in possession of an infallible dogma which had been handed down from Marx; he saw himself as the vehicle of a new social order, a new dispensation of time, a new era of destruction. Those who opposed him must be struck down immediately, mercilessly, at whatever the cost, absolutely and irrevocably. So he wrote in a letter to Grigory Sokolnikov in May 1919. It was not enough that they should be killed once; they must be killed over and over again, as the interminable adverbs swoop down on their prey.

Sitting quietly in his warm study, with his books around him and a litter of state documents on his desk, he would give way to sudden rages. He had been slighted; something had gone wrong; his orders were not being carried out promptly; immediately there is the flash of lightning followed by the rumbling of thunder. A workman called Bulatov complained to him about the actions of the Soviet government in Novgorod. Some days later Lenin learned that Bulatov had been arrested. Lenin regarded the arrest as an intolerable abuse of power. It was clear to him that Bulatov was in prison because he had dared to approach the President of the Soviet of People’s Commissars. Without a further thought, he wrote off a telegram to the Executive Committee of the Novgorod guberniya:

Apparently Bulatov has been arrested for complaining to me. I warn you that I shall have the chairmen of the guberniya executive committees, the Cheka and members of the executive committee arrested for this and see that they are shot. Why did you not answer my question immediately?

In his rage Lenin was sentencing the government of Novgorod guberniya to be shot for having arrested one man. In her memoirs Krupskaya refers to this telegram. “It was,” she wrote, “a very characteristic one.”

Why did he write this telegram? Did he seriously believe that the executive committee, to whom it was addressed, would turn themselves in and arrange to be shot by the Cheka, which would then turn the weapons on itself? It is much more likely that he sent the telegram merely to inspire them with terror, to frighten them out of their wits. But there is very little difference between frightening men out of their wits and killing them, especially when you have the power to kill them.

The letters written in that quiet room sometimes reek with terror — with terror wielded as a weapon and with terror felt on the nerves and sinews. There were times when he was mortally frightened, when all his dreams seemed about to collapse, when he was alone in his cell, waiting, like the doctor in Chekhov’s story “Ward No. 6”, for the blow to fall, knowing that only by a desperate expedient would he be able to survive it. Engels had once described terror as “the domination of men who are themselves terrorized”. Lenin may never have known what Engels thought of terror, but his eagerness to employ the weapon hints that he was himself its victim rather than its master. It was always terror “at saturation point”. It was never a question of shooting one man in ten, as a warning to the remaining nine. He must shoot five, or six, or seven, and go on until there are only the shreds of a man left. He practiced terror like the Romans. When the Emperor Gallienus cried out, “Tear, kill, exterminate! — Lacera, occide, concide!” he was saying no more than Lenin, who spoke of destroying “immediately, mercilessly, at whatever the cost, absolutely and irrevocably”.

Lenin to Zinoviev: June 1918

Comrade Zinoviev, only today did we in the Central Committee learn that the Petrograd workers want to react to the assassination of Volodarsky by mass terror and that you — I am not talking about you personally, but about the Petrograd members of the CC and CP — have restrained them. I most emphatically protest … This is in-admissible … It is necessary to cultivate the mass nature of the terror against counterrevolutionaries and push it forward with even greater energy, especially in Petrograd, whose example is decisive. Greetings! LENIN.

Lenin to Yevgeniya Bosh: August 1918

Your telegram received. It is necessary to organize an intensive guard of picked reliable men to conduct a merciless mass terror against kulaks, priests and White Guards; suspects to be held in a concentration camp outside the city. Punitive expedition to set out at once. Telegraph re mission accomplished. Sovnarkom LENIN.

Lenin to the Soviet of Nizhni Novgorod: August 1918

An open uprising of White Guards is clearly in preparation in Nizhni Novgorod. You must mobilize all forces, establish a triumvirate of dictators, introduce immediately mass terror, shoot and deport hundreds of prostitutes who ply soldiers and officers with vodka. Do not hesitate for a moment. You must act promptly: mass searches for hidden arms; mass deportations of Mensheviks and security risks. Sovnarkom LENIN.

Such messages were continually being sent from the quiet room in the Kremlin. It had become a habit to write the word shoot, so that in the end it became almost meaningless; it was like brushing off flies. He had such a horror of the processes of death that he refused to have flowers in the room, knowing that they decayed, but death in the abstract and at some remote telegraphic distance pleased him. He would write, “Shoot and deport,” without pausing to wonder whether anyone could be deported after being shot. What is chiefly remarkable about these murderous telegrams is their vulgarity.

In all wars and revolutions excesses are committed; and the most hideous barbarities are excused on the grounds of expediency. Lenin, however, made no excuses. For him mass terror was the most useful and therefore the most desirable of weapons. Single acts of terror had little appeal for him: it was only when the terror was being waged on a massive scale that he rejoiced, the pulse of the sentences demonstrating his excitement, his urgency, and his barbarity. Marx praised the Paris Commune for being innocent of the violence common in revolutions. Lenin gloried in violence: it was the drug which stimulated him to further action, the whip which goaded him, the solace of his studious temperament.

At various times in the past Lenin had claimed that terror was “not the right road,” but in fact he always accepted terror gratefully. “In principle we have never renounced, and cannot renounce terrorism,” he wrote in Iskra in 1901; and he added, “It is an act of war, indispensable at a certain point in the struggle.” But these “certain points” were being continually prolonged until it seemed that Lenin was encouraging the permanent reign of terror with no end in sight. A new and entirely un-Marxist theory of the state was emerging. Terror was to become the chief instrument of state power; and Lenin discovered to his surprise that terror was so formidable an instrument that no others were necessary."

Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Nictionary on July 19, 2018, 11:59:57 PM
Here is Lenin again:"We'll ask the man, where do you stand on the question of the revolution?  Are you for it or against it?  If he's against it, we'll stand him up against a wall."  Shortly after he came to power he asked, "Is it impossible to find among us a Fouquier-Tinville to tame our wild counterrevolutionaries?"  The number of times Lenin, as head of the government, began to use such expressions as "shoot them," "firing squad," "against the wall," suggests a growing temperamental appetite for extreme methods.  He writes in The State and Revolution:"We set ourselves the ultimate aim of abolishing the state, i.e., all organized and systematic violence, all use of violence against people in general."
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 20, 2018, 02:51:18 PM
Lenin was much as monster as Stalin was. 

The only thing that stopped him from racking up a high body count is that he died only a few years into his rule.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on July 20, 2018, 06:35:02 PM
An old Soviet joke: Stalin and Hitler are in Hell. Hitler is up to his neck in blood while Stalin is up to his waist in blood. Hitler asks" why are you only up to your waist in blood not up to your neck like me even though you killed more people?"
Stalin: "I am standing on Lenin's shoulders."

Having read both the above mentioned books by Payne and Pipes and others. I can safely say that if Lenin had lived longer his body count would have been much higher.
see "The Black Book of Communism"
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 21, 2018, 12:03:42 PM
Quote
An old Soviet joke: Stalin and Hitler are in Hell. Hitler is up to his neck in blood while Stalin is up to his waist in blood. Hitler asks" why are you only up to your waist in blood not up to your neck like me even though you killed more people?"
Stalin: "I am standing on Lenin's shoulders."

Yeah, that sounds just about right.


Quote
I can safely say that if Lenin had lived longer his body count would have been much higher.

And, of course, Stalin was more than eager to pick up where Lenin had left off.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Превед on July 22, 2018, 04:57:53 PM
In Norway we are today, on the 22nd of July, commemorating the massacre of 32 children on the Labour Party Youth summer camp on Utøya in 2011. The youngest of the victims were just a few months older than Alexey Nikolayevich when he was killed. They were killed in cold blood by a self-declared crusader against cultural Marxism. Sometimes I feel things have gone full circle and I'm baffled by how close the dates 17th and 22nd July are.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 24, 2018, 01:25:39 AM
I recalled the murder of those poor Norwegian children was close to the anniversary of the Imperial Family's murder. Losing children strips us of our future. Surely Russia would have been better off with Nicholas' children alive, just as Norway would have been better off with their children alive!
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on July 25, 2018, 12:05:41 AM
The murder of children is horrible.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: tenorsfan on September 18, 2018, 03:03:15 PM
The last couple of years there's been an outbreak of measles in Europe. Another Romanov coincidence. The  100th anniversary from when OTMAA caught it and lost their chance to escape and live. Once again its wreaking havoc.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 28, 2018, 11:02:02 AM
Are children not being vaccinated?
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: GDSophie on September 28, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
Nope, because the internet and some terrible organisations are preaching that vaccinations cause autism and other stuff, which is a complete, utter lie.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Greenowl on September 29, 2018, 10:38:14 AM
I recently read an article about the problem in a scientific journal, in which the internet was described as a "Pandora's Box" as most parents are unable to assess whether or not the information they find there is factually correct, with the result that many believe they are doing their children a favour by refusing to have them vaccinated. Seemingly a baby in the UK recently died from measles, which is the first measles-related death in the UK for over ten years....
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on November 02, 2018, 06:08:20 PM
Hard to believe people can still die from this, when it's easily preventable.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: tenorsfan on January 01, 2019, 05:33:42 AM
The hundred year mark felt like a circle maybe elliptical where OTMA seemed closer, more right there, like it came around. Now that the century mark since their murder has slipped away, I wonder if those girls may start to fade in the distance or is it those deer in the headlights photos that will always keep them immediate. It seems their murder was the one murder that plunged poor Russia into a 100 year dark ages. Like how Jesus' crucifixion was the one crucifixion of lasting significance. Now at the Century mark, what will happen? Dark ages for the rest of us is what it feels like is what is happening though I hope not.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on January 02, 2019, 05:02:48 PM
As long as sites like this exist, none of them will be forgotten.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: PAGE on January 09, 2019, 03:43:34 AM
Personally, I knew the imperial family by his assassination, but I did not become one of his fervent admirers for that. I do not think, it will be forgotten.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: TimM on January 10, 2019, 12:18:12 AM
Keep the memory alive.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: The Test Card Girl on May 13, 2019, 06:27:00 AM
As someone of Jewish heritage - although not a practicing Jew - whose ancestors escaped Old Europe pogroms I have...mixed attitudes toward the Tsar.

His main problems were that A) he wasn't taught how to properly rule and B) He grew up in a highly reactionary environment which instilled into him the idea that he should rule.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: DNAgenie on May 13, 2019, 05:25:49 PM
If the Russian royal family had not been murdered, this site would not exist, but martyrdom is a powerful incentive for undeserved admiration. I am aware that the site aims to examine the facts impartially, but this is not easy to do.

The more I learn about Nicholas II the less I like him. Despite being the scion of a long line of (more or less) successful rulers, he was entirely unfitted to rule Russia when he came to the throne. I do feel sorry for him, as he knew that to be the case but he felt he had no choice. However I do not share the idolatry of many on this site.

The same goes for Alexandra, who I find particularly irritating. I am not alone in this as most of her family felt the same way at some stages of her life, but she could never see her own faults, or if she did, she could not act on the knowledge.

Given the circumstances, this pair was a disaster waiting to happen, and it happened.

Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Forum Admin on May 13, 2019, 10:29:49 PM
As a Jew, who has studied this subject and read many first hand accounts, I can say that Nicholas was about as "OK" with Jews as any other head of State in Europe at the time. His "problem" was having to juggle the various social forces in Russia, many of which were very anti Semitic. To his credit, he never "permitted" Pogroms and in fact issued Ukazes and orders to stop and prevent them (many of which were ignored on the local level) and he had Jewish people around him, including his personal Orchestra. He once publicly ridiculed Dombadze the Governor of Yalta who refused entry to the Jewish members of Nicholas' orchestra as part of his anti Semitic agenda.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Forum Admin on May 13, 2019, 10:45:18 PM
For DNAGenie:
I don't disagree with much of what you said. I do, however, have a different take on it. I find something sad about the Pathos of their situation and the resulting tragedy. Yes Nicholas knew his weaknesses, as did Alexandra. You miss the point that they had NO CHOICE but to accept their roles and "muddle on" as best they could. It was unthinkable from their perspective to NOT rule as Alexander III and his other ancestors had done. Alexandra bore a huge burden feeling totally to blame for Alexei's illness, she felt a huge guilt at not being able to "fit in" to the Social world of the Aristocracy, who mostly and unfairly never gave her a chance to be accepted for who she was, and who villified her for not conforming to their expectations, when as EMPRESS the Aristocrats had the duty to try to accept her, but they refused. This made her challenge nearly impossible. Her devotion to her family and her role was seen as a negative, by the aristocratic class who preferred her to be a social paragon of tradition, parties, and less about her family, Further the health issues of the Tsetsarevich compounded her difficulty, and she had no support or understnding from the Court for this challenge. I find it a tragedy of PATHOS,
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: DNAgenie on May 14, 2019, 08:52:48 PM
Quote
I don't disagree with much of what you said. I do, however, have a different take on it. I find something sad about the Pathos of their situation and the resulting tragedy. Yes Nicholas knew his weaknesses, as did Alexandra. You miss the point that they had NO CHOICE but to accept their roles and "muddle on" as best they could. It was unthinkable from their perspective to NOT rule as Alexander III and his other ancestors had done. Alexandra bore a huge burden feeling totally to blame for Alexei's illness, she felt a huge guilt at not being able to "fit in" to the Social world of the Aristocracy, who mostly and unfairly never gave her a chance to be accepted for who she was, and who villified her for not conforming to their expectations, when as EMPRESS the Aristocrats had the duty to try to accept her, but they refused. This made her challenge nearly impossible. Her devotion to her family and her role was seen as a negative, by the aristocratic class who preferred her to be a social paragon of tradition, parties, and less about her family, Further the health issues of the Tsetsarevich compounded her difficulty, and she had no support or understanding from the Court for this challenge. I find it a tragedy of PATHOS

That is fair comment and I agree with you about the Pathos of it all, but I wear two hats here. My comments were made as a serious historian, and I find it awkward that some posters here seem to believe that Nicholas II is beyond criticism. Alexandra is less popular, but I find her even more of a tragic figure than her husband. Given the types of people they were, the Russian Revolution became inevitable.

On a personal level I have been fascinated by the story of Anastasia and the deaths of the royal family for many years, and that interest began long before I discovered that I am related to them all. To me they are family, and their history is full of pathos and missed opportunities, so I find myself saying, If ONLY at many points in their lives. But that is hindsight, and it so easy to be wise after the event. I doubt if any of us could have done much better in the same circumstances.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: The Test Card Girl on May 15, 2019, 03:00:15 AM
People in the past don't know they are living in the past. They think they are living in the present. And they cannot see into the future. That is why decisions must be assessed on what they would have known. Not what we know 100 years into the future.
Title: Re: One Hundred Years On
Post by: Lochlanach on January 15, 2020, 12:12:44 PM
It may have all gone silent on the issue of Romanov bones , re-burial , church recognition , etc. But we will likely be getting an academic paper this year detailing the DNA findings of the recent investigation which ,among other things, will confirm the results of 2009 , place the family within a Central European ( ie German) DNA context , and also provide info on other Russian dynasties. If I had the link I would post it but it is buried on Anthrogenica. Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.