Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hohenzollern => Topic started by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 05:28:16 AM

Title: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 05:28:16 AM
Does anyone, please, have any information about Leopold (? of Saxony) son of Philip of S-C-Kohary, & Louise of Beligum. (I have him down as Duke of Saxony...but perhaps he is a Coburg?)
He was born in July 1878 & was reputedly murdered by a woman (? a former lover) in Vienna 27 April 1916.
I'd be grateful for any info...thank you :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 08:27:32 AM
Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary linie) [1878-1916] was the eldest child, only son, of Prince Philipp of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and his wife, née Princess Louise of Belgium, herslef the eldest daughter of King Leopold II of the Belgians.

Prince Philipp's father, Prince August (1818-1881) was a first cousin of King Leopold II.  Both August and Leopold II were also first cousins to Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, all four being grandchildren of Duke Franz Friedrich Anton of Saxe-Saalfeld-Coburg and his second wife, the former Countess Augusta of Reuß-Ebersdorf.

Furthermore, Philipp and Lepold II were also both granbdsons of King Louis Philippe of the French through their mothers: Queen Louise Marie of Belgium and Princess Clementine of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha - both born members of the Orléans family.

As for Prince Leopold he did indeed die from wounds suffered after his mistress attacked him, first shotting him and then throwing acid at him.  However, and contrary to popular belief, Leopold did not die after the attack, as in fact he survived several months of terrible agony.  It seems that he broke off his relationship with this woman for as the eldest of his line and heir to the vast Kohary inheritance in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Leopold needed to produce a legitimate heir from an equal marriage.  The lady in question did not like this and took mad action against her paramour.

Leopold also had a really bad relationship with his mother Louise, as he felt the full brunt of her scandals and infidelities.  In her own memoirs, Louise Coburg expresses almost no regret for her son's fate...all too sad really.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 08:32:56 AM
Thank you, Arturo!
"Hell hath no fury...." A real crime of passion then!!
How terrible to be burned with acid...presumably the scorned woman was arrested?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 08:47:20 AM
Quote
Does anyone, please, have any information about Leopold (? of Saxony) son of Philip of S-C-Kohary, & Louise of Beligum. (I have him down as Duke of Saxony...but perhaps he is a Coburg?)
He was born in July 1878 & was reputedly murdered by a woman (? a former lover) in Vienna 27 April 1916.
I'd be grateful for any info...thank you :)
 



Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary (also Duke of Saxony, as all members of the Saxe branches were dukes/duchesses of Saxony as well.)
He died in a Vienna hospital, "while undergoing an operation" that was intended to repair damage "frightful injuries" caused when a bottle of vitriol was thrown at him.  The acid was hurled at him by a woman "who had been betrayed" by Leopold who had promised a morganatic marriage.  She was the daughter of a Viennese govt offficial - when she found herself abandoned and destitute after this "betrayal", she throw the acid at Leopold and the committed suicide in his presence.  The Washington Post had a story May 28. 1916.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 08:47:46 AM
Yes she was and sent to prison, it was a terribly messy scandal and put an end to the senior line of the Kohary-Coburg branch.  After Leopold's death in 1916, life was sucked out of Prince Philipp since it deprived him of any possibility of having a direct heir and grandchildren.  Philipp died five years later a broken man.

After Philipp's death in 1921, his share of the Kohary inheritance, one of the largest Europe has ever seen, was divided between his childless daughter Dora and his nephews (August Leopold and Ludwig Gaston) as well as his brother, former King Ferdinand of Bulgaria, who by then was residing in golden exile in Coburg's Burglaßschloßen.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 08:50:34 AM
Oh? Which is true? She committed suicide in his presence (Marlene) - which would in a way be more romantic!
Or...she was sent to prison (Arturo)...which would be much less romantic.
Either way it's a very sad story! (For her...& for him, even though he abandoned her!)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 08:52:09 AM
Quote
Yes she was and sent to prison, it was a terribly messy scandal and put an end to the senior line of the Kohary-Coburg branch.  After Leopold's death in 1916, life was sucked out of Prince Philipp since it deprived him of any possibility of having a direct heir and grandchildren.  Philipp died five years later a broken man.

After Philipp's death in 1921, his share of the Kohary inheritance, one of the largest Europe has ever seen, was divided between his childless daughter Dora and his nephews (August Leopold and Ludwig Gaston) as well as his brother, former King Ferdinand of Bulgaria, who by then was residing in golden exile in Coburg's Burglaßschloßen.

Arturo Beéche


Are you sure she was sent to prison ... according to one article that I have, she committed suicide after the attack.  The WPost article is rather graphic about the details of the attack, and the damage to Leopold (he died in the hospital.)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 08:52:59 AM
Quote


Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary (also Duke of Saxony, as all members of the Saxe branches were dukes/duchesses of Saxony as well.)
He died in a Vienna hospital, "while undergoing an operation" that was intended to repair damage "frightful injuries" caused when a bottle of vitriol was thrown at him.  The acid was hurled at him by a woman "who had been betrayed" by Leopold who had promised a morganatic marriage.  She was the daughter of a Viennese govt offficial - when she found herself abandoned and destitute after this "betrayal", she throw the acid at Leopold and the committed suicide in his presence.  The Washington Post had a story May 28. 1916.


HI Marlene,

I have read about this "suicide" claim, but I have no yet been able to prove the veracity of it.  Coburg family lore argues that the woman in question was alive and caught by the police.  Nonethless the whole thing was a nasty episode.  Would you happen to have another source that would verify the WP piece?

Many thanks!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 08:53:14 AM
Quote
Oh? Which is true? She committed suicide in his presence (Marlene) - which would in a way be more romantic!"


I would hardly call commiting suicide a romantic gesture.  My information comes from an article in the Washington Post.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 08:54:39 AM
Quote

HI Marlene,

I have read about this "suicide" claim, but I have no yet been able to prove the veracity of it.  Coburg family lore argues that the woman in question was alive and caught by the police.  Nonethless the whole thing was a nasty episode.  Would you happen to have another source that would verify the WP piece?

Many thanks!

Arturo Beéche


No  just the WPost article "Immediately after attacking him, the girl, who had entreated in vain to provide for her welfare, committed suicide in his presence."
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 08:58:45 AM
Bizarre and failed romance I suppose...terrible story anyhow...one of the worst among the Coburgs and there are many sad stories in that family.

Amazingly enough there is a long list of Coburg Princes whose eldest sons died before their father:

Father - Son

King Edward VII - Duke of Clarence
Duke Alfred - Alfred Jr.
Arthur - Arthur Jr.
Leopold I - Louis Philippe
Leopold II - Leopold
Philippe of Flanders - Baudouin
Ferdinand I - Pedro V
Philipp - Leopold
August Leopold - August Clemens
Johannes Heinrich - Johannes Albert
Ferdinand I - Boris III

Odd is it not...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 09:01:15 AM
Quote

No  just the WPost article "Immediately after attacking him, the girl, who had entreated in vain to provide for her welfare, committed suicide in his presence."


Thanks...I can search the Vienna library when next in the city this coming Spring as this is one piece of the puzzle that remains murky...I had hoped there would be an archive in the remodelled Coburg Palais, but Prince Philipp ( a terribly helpful man), does not remember if his parents (Philipp Josias and Sarah) donated the family records to the Austrian National Library.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 09:10:18 AM
Quote
Oh? Which is true? She committed suicide in his presence (Marlene) - which would in a way be more romantic!"


I would hardly call commiting suicide a romantic gesture.


Oh Marlene!! :) The romance!! Have you not seen the film 'Elvira Madigan' where the dashing young soldier & the dancer shoot themselves under a holm oak tree to the strains of Mozart's sonata...so BEAUTIFUL.  :'(
"Farewell, God knows when we shall meet again,
I have a faint cold fear thrills through my veins!!!"  (Romeo & Juliet)

(In reality of course it wouldn't be like that...& the acid kind of spoils this story.)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 09:36:17 AM
Quote

Oh Marlene!! :) The romance!! Have you not seen the film 'Elvira Madigan' where the dashing young soldier & the dancer shoot themselves under a holm oak tree to the strains of Mozart's sonata...so BEAUTIFUL.  :'(
"Farewell, God knows when we shall meet again,
I have a faint cold fear thrills through my veins!!!"  (Romeo & Juliet)


(In reality of course it wouldn't be like that...& the acid kind of spoils this story.)



Sorry, don't see this as romantic ... sick, and selfish, but not romantic.    (and never saw Elvira Madigan.) Taking one's own life is not the answer.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 10:05:50 AM
Quote


Sorry, don't see this as romantic ... sick, and selfish, but not romantic.   Taking one's own life is not the answer.

Marlene, I'm not SERIOUSLY advocating suicide - it's contrary to all my beliefs - (but as someone who has had close personal experience of it, I would extremely wary of calling the person who killed himself either  sick or selfish.)
However! Since I started it...I was only considering it in the light of a romantic story - & as I said the reality isn't quite the same as a dream.

More to the point...THANK YOU for your information about Leopold. :)

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2005, 10:16:37 AM
I don't know--wouldn't it have been more romantic if Leopold had been a willing participant?  :-/

Otherwise, I know what you mean--it has a long tradition from Romeo and Juliet to all the movies and stories regarding Mayerling.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 10:21:02 AM
Quote

Otherwise, I know what you mean--it has a long tradition from Romeo and Juliet to all the movies and stories regarding Mayerling.


Yes, thank you!  ;)  That's exactly what I meant! Romeo & Juliet, Cleopatra, Mayerling etc. It's not the reality it's the ROMANCE.
Thanks :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 10:26:26 AM

"However! Since I started it...I was only considering it in the light of a romantic story - & as I said the reality isn't quite the same as a dream.

More to the point...THANK YOU for your information about Leopold. :)

[/quote]

We have very different views of romance.  Throwing acid on someone or shooting one's partner and then killing's oneself does bring romantic sounds to me ..  My husband died five years ago - a heart attack at the age of 50 -- and we had a wonderful marriage, and we had romance ...  Mayerling ain't romantic to me ...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 10:26:59 AM


We have very different views of romance.  Throwing acid on someone or shooting one's partner and then killing's oneself does bring romantic sounds to me ..  My husband died five years ago - a heart attack at the age of 50 -- and we had a wonderful marriage, and we had romance ...  Mayerling ain't romantic to me ...[/quote]


Should be does not bring romantic sounds to me.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 10:37:13 AM
I am very sorry about your husband; you must miss him very much.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree about the romance. My views about the romance in the suicide are partly based on quite a different experience altogether. We all deal with things in our own way, hey? :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 10:43:26 AM
Quote
I am very sorry about your husband; you must miss him very much.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree about the romance. My views about the romance in the suicide are partly based on quite a different experience altogether. We all deal with things in our own way, hey? :)



Yes, I do miss him very much, and it is not easy rebuilding a life.  Our marriage was romantic but also based on Christian love -- a suicide pact is not really about love.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 02:46:34 PM
Quote

No  just the WPost article "Immediately after attacking him, the girl, who had entreated in vain to provide for her welfare, committed suicide in his presence."



And the NYTimes 10-24-1915 :Woman attacks prince.
"It is stated that the woman committed suicide by shooting."
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2005, 04:57:58 PM
I think bluetoria is really just referring to the long literary and historical tradition of joint suicide having a romantic connotation (like Romeo & Juliet--Shakespeare probably did much to advance this idea). I myself don't find it very romantic but I understand what she's trying to say. The Leopold situation doesn't fit because a) acid throwing--ghastly! b) it's murder not suicide  I think there's a certain appeal to writers when 2 people jointly decide to end their lives rather than be apart, etc...

I used to see your signature line about being a widow on the other newsgroups and I am very sorry for your loss. My father died suddenly of a heart attack 9 years ago and my mother misses him every day (as do we all). I faced being a 25 year old widow with a toddler when my husband was in the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 and it was about the worst feeling I've had.  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 05:10:52 PM
I totally, utterly, unconditionally, outrightly wholeheartedly, entirely withdraw all my previously expressed views about the romance of suicide previously posted! And I'm sorry if I caused anyone any offence.

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 06:00:24 PM
Thank you!  :) I do think perhaps people can be offended & I suppose when people on sites like this know so little about each other, we have to be careful...so, sorry! (What's happened to the Pope...I haven't heard that?)

( And yes I WAS talking about the romantic tradition)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 06:11:18 PM
I've just noticed!! I've become a god...right at the moment when I was thinking of Cleopatra:
"I have immortal longings in me!"  :D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 06:29:03 PM
Quote
I totally, utterly, unconditionally, outrightly wholeheartedly, entirely withdraw all my previously expressed views about the romance of suicide previously posted! And I'm sorry if I caused anyone any offence.



Let me give my two pence' worth...you are entitled to your opinion and views...point blank, plain and simple.  What may be a painful memory to me, may not be so for someone else. No one has a monopoly on loss and we  have all lost someone dear...it is painful, a pity and a terrible thing to experience, but you should not compromise your opinion to suit the rest of us.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 06:48:32 PM
"I used to see your signature line about being a widow on the other newsgroups and I am very sorry for your loss. My father died suddenly of a heart attack 9 years ago and my mother misses him every day (as do we all). I faced being a 25 year old widow with a toddler when my husband was in the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 and it was about the worst feeling I've had.  [/quote]


Thank you .. and my heart goes out all of our military families.  A member of our church just suffered a great loss.  His Marine group was ambushed last week, and most of the men were killed.  Mike, whose wife is pregnant, happened to be in a military hospital in Baghdad with strep throat,  now suffers through the emotions of loss, guilt, and knowing that he is alive, but most of his buddies are now dead or seriously wounded.

This is totally OT.  Bill was the last of my family, and I have to make decisions without support from a family unit.  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 01, 2005, 06:49:51 PM
Quote
I totally, utterly, unconditionally, outrightly wholeheartedly, entirely withdraw all my previously expressed views about the romance of suicide previously posted! And I'm sorry if I caused anyone any offence.



Blue .. no offense was taken  nor offence   :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2005, 07:36:59 PM
Quote
 Thank you .. and my heart goes out all of our military families.  A member of our church just suffered a great loss.  His Marine group was ambushed last week, and most of the men were killed.  Mike, whose wife is pregnant, happened to be in a military hospital in Baghdad with strep throat,  now suffers through the emotions of loss, guilt, and knowing that he is alive, but most of his buddies are now dead or seriously wounded.This is totally OT.  Bill was the last of my family, and I have to make decisions without support from a family unit.  


How horrid for him. It's got to be rough with the loss of friends but yet relieved that he wasn't there. And his wife--what stress to go through when your pregnant. I pray everyday for military families stationed everywhere. My heart just goes out to them.

bluetoria--the Pope was hospitalized with influenza but it seems like it could be more serious than that--especially with his already poor condition.

Art--you are right. If we couldn't talk about things that involved loss we'd never be able to talk about NAOTMAA at all!

As to the original topic, I'm still just horrified that she'd throw acid on the poor fellow! How they could even start to treat that when it's still so difficult with today's technology is beyond me. And that his mother was seemingly indifferent?! The children of Leopold II were seriously messed up it seems.


Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 01, 2005, 08:04:24 PM
I would not go as far as claiming that "the" children, but perhaps one of them, Louise, but then again she was forced into a marriage with a man who had a terrible reputation, and very likely was a sexual deviant.  Imagine the poor child at the age of sixteen being thrown into a marital bed with a man twice her age who had been a known philanderer in Vienna's most disreputable bordellos...on her very wedding night she ran from him after being raped by a frustrated husband who expect her to be in the know of things...one has to take pity on poor Louise.

That is not to give her a carte blanche to go off like she did, sign forged letters of credit with her sister Stephanie's name and just cause one of the most amazing scandals royal Europe had witnessed.  For that Louise deserves all responsibility, for at least not having carried on her double life with a minimum degree of decorum.

As for Stephanie...poor girl...married at seventeen to one of Philipp Coburg's closest pals, a man who was highly strung, disease ridden by then and who would eventually pass to her a dreaded venereal disease which would render her useless for the dynasty's ambitions...and all before she was even 20!

And then we have the ignored sister, Princess Clementine, the unwanted daughter, who served as buffer between her increasingly argumentative parents, who sacrificed an early marriage to a prince because her father considered the Imperial Family of France parvenus...and for years on and on, poor Clementine reamined loyal to her Victor until both her mother and father passed away and then, only then, with the support of her cousin King Albert I of the Belgians, she finally managed to marry her prince in 1910, only to see him die sixteen years later at the relatively young age of 63.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2005, 08:40:19 PM
I guess I misspoke--I meant that they all had difficult hurdles--some not their fault, others personality defects. I should've said the family and its dynamics were messed up.

Stephanie had a bit of an ego problem (her autobiography is entertaining) and certainly her whole image nowadays is wrapped up with the Mayerling affair--and she usually gets the short end of the stick instead of the sympathy!

Louise we've gone into.

Clementine is actually one of my favorites due to her star-crossed love affair with Victor Napoleon. Her problems came from being a pawn between her parents and basically shackled to her father's side and forbidden to marry the man she loved until Leopold II died when she was in her 30s.

All of the children were treated pretty shabbily and weren't the girls (except maybe Clementine?) totally disinherited and then the matter dragged through court for years?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 02, 2005, 12:21:01 AM
Leopold II forbade the presence of Louise and Stephanie at his stranged wife's funeral...a ridiculous an vindictive action on his part against his daughters. And yes they diod have a long fight over the inheritance from Leopold II which dragged on for years, he having divested a lot of his fortune to a foundation in order to keep the money from his daughters.

The surviving princesses did receive some money from the inheritance left behind by their mad aunt Empress Charlotte of mexico, their father's sister, but by then Louise herself, destitute and broken in spirit had died in 1924, aged 66 years old.

Arturo Beéche

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 02, 2005, 11:59:26 AM
Thank you! I just didn't want to start discussing her if there was already another thread.
I was totally unaware of the details of her marriage, beyond knowing she was very unhappy but Arturo's graphic account explains it very clearly. Yet another v. unhappy princess - makes you think after so many appalling wedding nights for totally ignorant & innocent young girls (Marie Bonaparte, Missy, Ducky & who knows how many others who never mentioned it) that maybe Ella - if people's conjectures are correct - had a lucky escape, after all! Why did their mothers, who had presumably gone through the same 'shock' not warn them what to expect!! (And yet afterwards many found happiness with other partners...maybe it was just that some of the men were as ignorant as they were?)
She ran off, did she not, with a member of the household & was subsequently incarcerated in an asylum? Was she mentally unbalanced or was it simply to 'shut her up'? And what is meant by forging letters etc.?  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 02, 2005, 08:20:07 PM
Louise ran away from Vienna with her lover Count Mattachich and settled on the Mediterranean coast, where she proceeded to spend wildly, while plunging into a frivolous and debacuhed lifestyle.  When her husband stopped paying her mounting bills, Louise faced with a growing number of creditors knocking at her door, forged Stephanie's signature on letters of credit.  When these letters of credit were brought to the Hofburg for collection, the controller of the Imperial Purse contacted Franz Joseph, who confronted Stephanie who denied, vehemently, having signed any of these letters of credit.  It was then that they figured it had been Louise who forged Stephanie's signature.

Franz Joseph summoned Prince Philipp and demanded that he bring his errant wife to heed and seek honor from Mattachich.  A duel was fought, when Mattachich slightly injured Philipp's hand, honor was declared restored and Mattachich returned to Louise.  Almost destitute and hounded they left for his mother's estate, where they received no warm welcome. Soon enough Mattachich was apprehended for having been AWOL from his regiment and Louise was sent to a sanatorium for the mentally insane, where she was to spend several years.

Mother's back then were not comfortable talking to their children about sex...heaven's let's face it...parents in America today do not talk to their kids frankly about sex...it is our big taboo...we get sanctimonious and pissy about a two-second long nipple shot, which most of America missed, and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?  SO, honestly, I think the taboo remains...sadly!  :-[

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Janet_W. on February 02, 2005, 08:34:37 PM
Quote
. . . parents in America today do not talk to their kids frankly about sex...it is our big taboo...we get sanctimonious and pissy about a two-second long nipple shot, which most of America missed, and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?!  :-[
Arturo Beéche


Ha! Very funny, but all too true as well! Thanks, Arturo. (Though on second reading I'll have to add that I'm not so sure he truly believes it . . . it's more of a promotional thing.)

P.S. It's my icky birthday today  >:(, but I just learned how to use the quote function  :D, so I guess I'm still capable of learning!  :o

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 02, 2005, 08:42:01 PM
zapo verday 2 U...zapo verday 2 U...zapo verday dear Yanet!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 02, 2005, 10:39:56 PM
Quote
Louise ran away from Vienna with her lover Count Mattachich and settled on the Mediterranean coast, where she proceeded to spend wildly, while plunging into a frivolous and debacuhed lifestyle.  When her husband stopped paying her mounting bills, Louise faced with a growing number of creditors knocking at her door, forged Stephanie's signature on letters of credit.  When these letters of credit were brought to the Hofburg for collection, the controller of the Imperial Purse contacted Franz Joseph, who confronted Stephanie who denied, vehemently, having signed any of these letters of credit.  It was then that they figured it had been Louise who forged Stephanie's signature.

Franz Joseph summoned Prince Philipp and demanded that he bring his errant wife to heed and seek honor from Mattachich.  A duel was fought, when Mattachich slightly injured Philipp's hand, honor was declared restored and Mattachich returned to Louise.  Almost destitute and hounded they left for his mother's estate, where they received no warm welcome. Soon enough Mattachich was apprehended for having been AWOL from his regiment and Louise was sent to a sanatorium for the mentally insane, where she was to spend several years.

and we are going to sit with our kids and discuss sex when our leader believes the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is abstinence?  SO, honestly, I think the taboo remains...sadly!  :-[
Arturo Beéche


Do you know what year she left? She must've been middle-aged since she's shown in the Coburg wedding photo in 1894. If it was before QV died, I wonder what her reaction would've been but somehow I think it was later.


Frankly, I think parents are getting more comfortable with it. There was just a Katie Couric special on NBC all about teens and sex. I've already had 'begiinner' talks with my daughter (who's now 10) and while I admit I thought I would be a lot 'hipper' about it, managed to muddle through ok.  :)  Frankly though, the only foolproof way to prevent pregnancy IS abstinence unless you're the Virgin Mary.  ;) Guiding children towards abstinence shouldn't be mocked--there are sound health, emotional and religious components to it. I agree that it should be an part of an overall comprehensive teaching but should definitely be stressed. I found it interesting in the special that when they talked to kids they found them a lot more _aware_ of sex and sexuality but were choosing to abstain (for a variety of reasons--including girl power!). So there was a comfort level in talking about it but a realization that it's not necessarily the route to go down. The show did stress parents better get up on the sexual lingo (I was pretty proud that even though my children aren't teens yet I knew most of what the lingo was) because that's where kids will leave them in the dust.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 03, 2005, 05:04:06 AM
Thank you for this info. Some things confused me a little: I understood that a husband had to pay his wife's debts even if they were estranged because a wife, in law was seen only as an appendage to her husband. So would Philip not have been obliged to pay her debts or was the law in Austria different?
I was surprised at F-J encouaging a duel but, since only Philip's hand was hurt, were duels mainly meant to be merely a show of honour? (When was duelling made illegal?)
Do you know when Louise was put in & removed from the mental institution? After the divorce in early 1906 would her husband still have the right to have her kept there, presumably against her will?
At risk of reviving a former sensitive topic ( :-/) the idea of Louise, unwanted since birth fornot being a boy, running away from a cruel husband with a Count & ending up in poverty seems quiteromantic to me (although I DO wholeheartedly & totally believe in marital fidelty - honestly!!) & I am only thinking this IN A FAIRY STORY kind of way - an escape from a cruel husband with a dashing Count (maybe he wasn't?) who fights duel for your honour...v. 'Immortal Beloved' & 'Elvira Madigan.'

I understand that 'the past is a different country & they do things differently there' but, even allowing for Victorian taboos, I simply cannot understand mothers who would have allowed their daughters to be thrust into the beds of often older men with absolutely no idea of what was about to happen to them. QV's determination to keep her daughters in ignorance & worries that Alice 'knows too much' amazes me. P. Albert I think was more enlightened & I'm sure Alice would have educated her daughters better had she lived long enough. (It may have been the same with many men: I read of a 19th century philosopher whose knowledge of women's bodies was confined to the alabaster statues of goddesses he had seen in galleries. On his wedding night when he saw his naked wife he was so appalled to discover that she had body hair that he never went near her again. Poor woman to have caused him such revulsion!)
Nowadays, I agree with all grandduchessella has written, especiialy the religious, emotional & ethical aspects.  People are more comfortable talking about it with their children. Following my 'education' - an ancient religious pamphlet that my mother left on my bed when I was about to go to Grammar School!! [ (I think it said a lot about 'urges' & praying - I didn't understand a word of it!! :-[ I'm not sure that I'd understand it now it was so bizarre! You learn as you go along, I guess  ;)) - I have always talked openly to children. But I think that now there is a danger of over-education...children seem to have sex rammed down their throats (an unfortunate expression!) at every opportunity until 'anything goes' & in the determination to be politically correct, the moral aspect is quite often entirely overlooked & they are almost made to feel abnormal if they are not involved in any kind of sexual activity.
I think it's great that girls now can CHOOSE to be celibate without feeling there's something wrong with them.  How different from even say 15, 20 years ago when we were SUPPOSED to me so enlightened & in fact were only going from one extreme to the other.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 03, 2005, 09:34:09 AM
Louise's debts were extraordinary and threatened to put a serious strain on a wealthy husband as Philipp Coburg was.  To cover the scandal up as much as possible FJ decided to help Philipp settle the debts, since after all poor Stephanie had been dragge dinto the mess.

Louise, whatever pity one may have for her, had to know what a mess she was headed to.  Her own  mother had warned Stephanie to keep away from Louise as much as possible since she was seen as a pernicious influence on any young soul, terribly frivolous and a daring flirt.  The fact is that Louise did spend quite a bit of time raising eyebrows in Vienna with her behavior and lack of decorum.  To me it has always loked as if she was doing all this to bring attention to her troubled soul.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 03, 2005, 09:52:06 AM
Quote

To me it has always loked as if she was doing all this to bring attentuion to her troubled soul.

Arturo Beéche


Thank you for explaining about the debts.
This last line is very poignant...how very tragic.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Paul on February 03, 2005, 10:01:36 PM
Quote
Do you know when Louise was put in & removed from the mental institution? After the divorce in early 1906 would her husband still have the right to have her kept there, presumably against her will?


Louise's incarceration happened at her father's instigation. She was given two choices. She could return to her husband and behave. OR- King Leopold would have her committed to a luntic assylum. She chose the latter.

Her first prison was at Linderhof, Saxony. After word got out about her predicament, her family moved her to a more "genteel" lockup. This was sometime in the 1880s, but the exact date escapes me.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 04, 2005, 05:00:13 AM
Thank you for that information, Paul. So it was a LONG time before her divorce. She must have REALLY been either afraid of or disliked her husband if she opted instead for an asylum which, I imagine, in those days must have been terrifying. What an alternative!
Thank you.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 11, 2005, 11:15:44 AM
I think that after the scandal it would have been impossible for Louise of Coburg to function at court in Vienna.  I very much doubt Franz Joseph would have allowed her at the Hofburg...so going back to life as it "was" must have been a false option in real terms.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 11, 2005, 11:56:37 AM
Is there any information about what her life in the 'asylum' was like?
I have a terrible image of 19th century 'asylums' partly created from the fearful last scene of 'The Music Lovers' where Tchaikovsky's demented wife is chained up in one!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: erzsi on February 15, 2005, 03:38:36 PM
Louise came 1899 to the sanatorium and than
Louise escape 1904 from this sanatorium.She go to Paris and meet her sisiter Stephanie there,Franz Josef writte a letter to stephanie as he heard from the meeting and say to her he want to see her never again and also he want that stephanie dont see Erzsi for a longer time (Erzsi was pregnant with her 2.child)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 04:16:15 PM
Her whole life - especially after her marriage - just reads like one long unhappy saga, doesn't it. Even after her years of incarceration, to be refused access to her sister. It just becomes more and more tragic!
Thank you for the information, Erzi. :)
(But please can you explain who was 'Erzi' in this story - I'm a bit confused?)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2005, 06:03:34 PM
Wasn't it her daughter? The only child of Stephanie & Rudolf--Elizabeth.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 06:20:12 PM
Oh right, thank you! Then it gets worse. So Stephanie couldn't see HER pregnant daughter just because she'd met her sister?? I always thought Franz Joseph was a 'decent' sort of chap...(based mainly on my view of his letters to his long-time lady-friend) but he was clearly quite a tyrant, wasn't he? How cruel!
(I suppose it shows a bit in his treatment of poor Franz Ferdinand too.)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: erzsi on February 16, 2005, 06:28:24 AM
The letter who Franz Josef write is in the Book "Stephanie im schatten von Mayerling"von Irmgard Schiel.I take it here later...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 16, 2005, 06:51:42 AM
Thank you - I'd really like to read that! :) (p.s. where are you from, Erzsi? Are you Austrian? German? - If you don't mind my asking :))
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: erzsi on February 16, 2005, 02:43:35 PM
I´m from Germany  :)  ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: allanraymond on February 16, 2005, 05:41:28 PM
Quote

Thanks...I can search the Vienna library when next in the city this coming Spring as this is one piece of the puzzle that remains murky...I had hoped there would be an archive in the remodelled Coburg Palais, but Prince Philipp ( a terribly helpful man), does not remember if his parents (Philipp Josias and Sarah) donated the family records to the Austrian National Library.

Arturo Beéche


Arturo

Deviating somewhat on my part, Prince Philipp's daughter Isabelle married Michael Treimer in 1999. I have been unable to find a reference to his year (or actual date) of birth. Would you or anyone else have these details?

Thanks

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on February 16, 2005, 05:55:20 PM
Excellent French bio of princess Louise of Belgium  : Louise de Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha - Amours, Argent, Procčs by O. Defrance and J. van Loon. But does not deal much with Leopold apart from some details about his childhood and horrible death.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 16, 2005, 06:12:45 PM
Quote
I´m from Germany  :)  ;D


Please, Erzsi, would you be able to translate that letter some time? Thank you in anticipation! :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on February 16, 2005, 08:36:21 PM
Hi bluetoria ! I believe I believe I know what letter Erzsi has in mind. It is an answer from Kaiser Franz-Josef to one of Stephanie's letter to him (Sept. 1904). Here is my translation of it :

"Dear Stephanie. In answer to your letter, I must tell you that I cannot see you. Your going to Paris to see your sister, the way you are siding with her after all that happened (I am refering to your unspeakable telegram to Philipp Coburg), as well as the shameful press campaign it has given rise to, all these things make it impossible for me to see you. I am determined to keep away from this sad affair which, thanks God, does not concern me in the least. The only thing I hope is that some satisfactory solution may be found with the help of lawyers or through the legal way.
I would pray you not to visit Erzsi these days. Your present state of agitation could not fail to have a negative impact on her health because of her pregnancy.
Hoping you will comply, I am sending you my best greetings - FJ".

I hope my translation is not too bad and understandable (English not my mother tongue).
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on February 16, 2005, 08:44:58 PM
Leopold's mistress was an actress called Camilla Rybiczka. I have read that she shot herself after killing him. Her body was found on the floor in his room.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 17, 2005, 04:48:31 AM
Agneschen, thank you for your translation of the letter! (You must be brilliant to translate from German to English if you are French?  :) :) I LOVE French :) :) Thank you!)

He doesn't seem quite so much a tyrant after all. Perhaps his concerns for Erzsi were genuine but it does still seem rather cruel that he would not see Stephanie.
Thank you too for the name of & information about Leopold's mistress. She must have LOVED him in spite of what she did to him. (I think :-/)
Thank you!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2005, 09:56:05 AM
Re: Louise of Coburg

It was while she was outdriving one spring in 1895 that she met the young man, Count Geza-Mattacic-Keglevi, who would become her lover and set her life spinning out of control. He describes meeting her and feeling that seeing her because 'necessary' to his life. He became somewhat of a stalker, trailing her for months and finally, the following year, while she as on vacation at Abbazia, approaching her. Louise was flattered by the attentions of the handsome young Lieutenant in the 13th Uhlans as her husband wasn't that interested in her. By the time she prepared to return to Vienna they were in love and as was her nature, Louise made no attempt to disguise the fact. It didn't take long for the gossip to spread throughout the Courts that they were lovers. In fact, they consorted publicly, careless of who knew. It was too much for Franz Josef who banned her from Court and sent Mattacic packing. This didn't end it however--if anything, it now convinced Louise that she needed to end her marriage. She duly went to her father for permission who, of couse, would not hear of it. He recommended just being more discreet and stay shielded by the respectability of marriage. Ignoring this, Louise took her teenage daughter and went off to join her lover at the Villa Paradis in Nice on the Riviera. This public cuckholding proved too much for her husband Philip--he challenged Mattacic to a duel which was accepted. In 1898 the 2 men--one middle-aged and myopic, the other young and a military officer--faced off with pistols in Vienna at the Spanish Riding School. Both men fired--Philip's shot went wild while Mattacic fired into the air (thus probably avoiding an even bigger scandal and probable murder charges). They then switched to swords but Mattacic still refused to press his advantage and the whole ridiculous affair was brought to an end when Mattacic nicked the prince on the hand. Mattacic then returned to Nice and Louise. Philip now turned to legal rememdies and accused Mattacic of forgery. Louise's huge bills, guaranteed by the signature of her sister Stephanie, were brought foreward as evidence. The signature proved to be false and Mattacic was charged, an accusation which he vehemently denied. The problem was also left that the bills needed to be paid and neither Louise nor Mattacic had the means to do so. As Queen Victoria (a cousin of Philip) had always showed her 'affection' the lovers went to London in hopes that the Queen would settle their financial troubles. Luckily, before this ill-advised plan could be carried out, the two passed the Queen's train (en route to the South of France) and they were dissuaded from approaching her when they themselves returned to the Riviera. Louise was resorting to any method to raise money--reportedly even buying jewels on credit and then selling them for cash. Her father visited the Riviera but refused to even see her let alone give her any money. Matters worsened when a notice appeared in the paper that Philip would no longer assume any responsibility for his errant wife's debts. This opened a floodgate of creditors who even forced their way into Louise's hotel room and carted off anything of value--even her horses were confiscated for payment. Her daughter's fiance, Duke Gunther of Schleswig-Holstein, took Dora out of her mother's care and left her with his parents. Desparate now and still facing charges, the lovers made plans to return secretly to Austria and go to Mattacic's stepfather's castle in Croatia where they begged the man for financial assistance. Their presence didn't long remain secret but the police were unwiling to arrest them at the castle. Mattacic was summoned to appear at Zagreb (supposedly for a compulsory physical exam as he was still a military officer) whereupon he was arrested and tossed in jail. He was tried by secret court-martial and sentenced to 6 years in prison. Louise was offered the choice of returning to Philip or being incarcerated in an asylum. A telling remark on her feelings towards her husband, she chose the asylum. For legal reasons she was certified insane and commited to an asylum at Purkersdorf. As no one stepped forward to defend her, Louise remarked that she was 'erased from the world'. Louise would angrily claim later that no member of her family--her daughter, her sister Stephanie, her mother Queen Marie-Henriette--made a move to defend her. Her father, she felt, could care less what happened to her. In this she was mistaken as Leopold II took great pains to make sure the superintendent of the asylum would keep a 'strict watch upon the madwoman'. Thus ended that chapter in Louise's life.  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 17, 2005, 10:26:41 AM
Oh dear!!!
Thank you, grandduchessella for explaining all of that. What a very sad story. She may have been foolish but she was very greatly wronged, wasn't she? I wonder if she ever saw Mattacic again or what happened to him afterwards. It would be pleasant to think they at least corresponded, but I doubt it.
And what of Dora, did 'the odious Gunther' treat her well, in spite of QV's low opinion of him?
Leopold II really was a very cruel man wasn't he?

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Arleen on February 17, 2005, 10:34:37 AM
So what happened to Louise??  Did she die in the asylum and when??  A most interesting story grandduchessella...you are a wonderful story teller.  I am quite ignorant of this family but NOW I want to know more....Arleen
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 17, 2005, 10:37:24 AM
Erzsi, at the top of this page, says she was released from the asylum in 1904 & says some more...
But yes....please finish the rest of the story for us (when you have time & your fingers aren't dropping off!), grandduchessella..... :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 17, 2005, 11:43:02 AM
Louise died at Wiesbaden on March 1, 1924, surviving her ex-husband by about three years.  At the end of her life she was living in penury, beauty gone, money unavailable, herself forgotten by most.

Louise and Mattachich remained together once she was out of the asylum and he was out of prison.

It is a sad story indeed...but to the end Louise remained oblivious of her own faults, and that we cannot excuse.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 17, 2005, 11:48:01 AM
Quote
Louise died at Wiesbaden on March 1, 1924, surviving her ex-husband by about three years.  At the end of her life she was living in penury, beauty gone, money unavailable, herself forgotten by most.

Louise and Mattachich remained together once she was out of the asylum and he was out of prison.

It is a sad story indeed...but to the end Louise remained oblivious of her own faults, and that we cannot excuse.

Arturo Beéche


Thank you, Arturo. She DID then have the redeeming feature of being always in love with the Count, even after all they had gone through.
Perhaps her initial infidelity was wrong, but her husband was very unpleasant (from all that's been written) & the Count COULD have killed him, but didn't.
She must have loved the Count very deeply to have endured all that for him. I'm glad they met up again & remained together. (Couldn't that, perhaps, help her be 'excused'? ;))  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 17, 2005, 12:25:59 PM
Philipp was no saint...no husband back then was...but I fear people in this thread have demonized him and taken the line of extending a blank check to Louise, who cheated on her husband many times, just as he did on her, but had the audacity of throw caution to the wind and cause her family untol pain and shame.

I will never excuse infidelity and believe both were equally responsible for their actions.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 17, 2005, 12:31:32 PM
Quote

 the Count COULD have killed him, but didn't.
She must have loved the Count very deeply to have endured all that for him. I'm glad they met up again & remained together. (Couldn't that, perhaps, help her be 'excused'? ;))  


I also do not think it was the Count's intention to kill Philipp...hence the choice of swords as the weapon used in the duel.  

The encounter, suggested by Franz Joseph so Philipp could redeem his "honor," was silly to begin with.  Philipp suffered from vision problems and was a portly man by then, Mattachich was a strapping, agile and thin officer... Once Philipp suffered a minimal wound, the duel was declared at an end and honor saved...ludicrous of course.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Janet_W. on February 17, 2005, 12:50:09 PM
I cannot condone infidelity, but in certain circumstances I can not only understand it but empathize. If I'm not mistaken, Prince Albert himself realized his mother had lived an intolerable life with his father and honored her by bestowing the name of Louise upon one of his daughters. His wife, Queen Victoria, was aware of the situation and approved.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 17, 2005, 12:57:18 PM
Dear Janet,

It is not certain what Albert knew or did not know about the marital travails of his parents.  But I certainly do not think that he named his daughter after his mother to show that he was fine with what his mother had done.  Albert was closest to Louise among her two sons...he was heartbroken by the absence of his mother and namking his daughter after her, it would seem to me, is more a demonstration of respect and to honor his mother's memory..not condone her infidelities.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Janet_W. on February 17, 2005, 01:25:12 PM
Exactly, Arturo: Prince Albert was not condoning his mother's infidelity to his father in naming one of his daughers Louise. But as an adult with a wider vision of the world, and as a loving son with memories of a kind and sweet-natured mother who suffered under the domination of her cruel and adulterous husband, Prince Albert could empathize (even tho' he most certainly did not condone infidelity) and, with a loving heart, honor his mother's memory.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 17, 2005, 01:50:23 PM
That's if he "knew" of what had led t his mother's leaving Coburg...which we do not know for certain if he knew...you know what I mean?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 17, 2005, 02:08:54 PM
Quote

I will never excuse infidelity and believe both were equally responsible for their actions.

Arturo Beéche


Quite so, Arturo, but was it not the case then (as with, as Janet pointed out Prince Albert's mother) that infidelity in husbands WAS condoned whereas unfaithful wives were treated as pariahs (or even incarcerated in asylums!!)?
Had this situation been reversed, I very much doubt Philip would have been treated so badly by Franz Joseph.  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 18, 2005, 01:22:58 AM
Quote

I also do not think it was the Count's intention to kill Philipp...hence the choice of swords as the weapon used in the duel.  

The encounter, suggested by Franz Joseph so Philipp could redeem his "honor," was silly to begin with.  Philipp suffered from vision problems and was a portly man by then, Mattachich was a strapping, agile and thin officer... Once Philipp suffered a minimal wound, the duel was declared at an end and honor saved...ludicrous of course.

Arturo Beéche


This was exactly what I had written--except adding the part about pistols being used first and Mattacic  'deloping' by firing in the air. There's no doubt that since Philip's shot went wild Mattacic could've easily killed him.

As for Philip, I don't know what he was like as a husband--most tends to be written about Louise--but I don't demonize him. Louise did act very impulsively and foolishly--though choice of a husband you despise or a lunatic asylum seems a bit harsh. Since times were more hypocritical back then I"m going to look at it from the past rather than now and say that she should've stayed married, spent her husband's money and had her lover--all discreetly done.


Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 18, 2005, 02:02:42 AM
Quote
So what happened to Louise??  Did she die in the asylum and when??  A most interesting story grandduchessella...you are a wonderful story teller.  I am quite ignorant of this family but NOW I want to know more....Arleen


OK, here goes (I had to do some more reading and then compose it)

Once Louise was incarcerated, Leopold II (that hateful old lech) declared to Franz Josef (who hoped Leopold would pay some of his daughter's debts) that his daughter was 'dead' to him. FJ replied that LII should be reminded that it 'would become him to pay the debts of even his dead children'. Louise began to gain in public sympathy for her plight. To counter this she was moved to a mental home in Lindenhof (Saxony--ironic considering Crown Princess Louise's later equally scandal affair and abandonment of family). While as Louise described it  her ' cage was certainly gilded' and she enjoyed more freedom than at Purkersdorf, a cage is a cage and she was still under strict supervision. Her male attendants were policemen and her lady-in-waiting was obliged to make daily reports on her conduct. The one member of the family to ever visit Louise was the Countess of Flanders (nee Marie of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen and mother of Albert I of Belgium) who even got Dora to visit her mother. After 4 years of incarceration Louise heard of Mattacic's release. A Socialist deputy had taken up his case and after much legal wrangling (where the Coburg name didn't emerge unscathed) Mattacic won his release. His ardor undimmed, his first act was to hasten to Saxony to search for Louise. A romantic story goes that she was out on a drive (guarded of course) and happened to spot an oncoming cyclist. As they passed, their eyes met and she recognized her lover but was able to suppress a cry of surprise and emotion. She was able, with the connivance of her lady-in-waiting, to arrange two short meetings in the woods. Suspicions were soon aroused though and Mattacic, like a good officer, retreated from the area to plan their next move. Louise heard nothing from him for several months until one day a young boy flung a note onto her lap while she was in her carriage. On it was written HOPE. Here the story takes on even more of the characteristics of a romance novel. She was given leave to attend a spa for her health and another message was smuggled to her (by her waiter--very melodramatic) which said her escape would come the next day. Louise attended the theatre the following night and as she was escorted back to her rooms she quickly packed clothes and awaited her signal. At 1:00 a scratching at the door alerted her and she opened it to see the hotel's nightwatchman who passed the message that she should be ready to leave at any second and that he would return momentarily. Finally, 2 hours later (!!), he returned and 2 of them moved stealthily down the halls of the hotel, down the stairs and made their escape through a side door where Mattacic was awaiting her. They escaped through a garden to the road (right past the 2 guards who were busy talking) and quickly made their way to the safety of the trees across the road and then into a waiting carriage. They quickly drove to the train station and a few hours later arrived in Berlin but as their final destination was Paris (which necessitated passing through Belgium) they were unable to fully relax until they were in a 'hospitable country' were they were protected by 'just laws'. Seven years in total had now passed. Of course a woman of such passionate & emotional nature couldn't remain in seclusion and safety for long--especially one who needed money.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 18, 2005, 02:06:22 AM
Louise and Stephanie (also in their father's very bad graces) decided to sue for 1/2 of LII's huge fortune. If the spectacle was scandalous before it became only larger as it was played out on the world stage. Janson, a Radical politician and lawyer only too happy to embarass such a despised monarch, took the case. The trial (held in Brussels) played to packed audiences. While Janson won public opinion after relating LII's treatment of his 2 daughters (one newspaper commenting that LII"s heart wasn't made of stone but rather gold 'which is harder than stone'), he lost the legal case. In many respects it was a pyrrhic victory for LII though as his already bad reputation began to sink still further. Enraged (and determined to protect his blood-money) he sent an emissary to handle Louise. She would be given an estate in Germany and a handsome annuity but only on the condition that she end her affair with Mattacic. Louise (though she couldn't even pay her hotel bill) refused though she knew this would astound many. Louise now obtained her divorce and the 'disgrace' gave LII cover to publicly disavow her once and for all (the old hypocrite). Stephanie, her sister-in-lawsuit, also expressed her shock that her sister would obtain a divorce and vowed to have nothing more to do with her. (Perhaps Stephanie would've preferred them to go to a hunting lodge and settle matters 'properly'). Stephanie wrote in her autobiography that while they remained devoted friends 'connected by the closest ties, until the unhappy hour when our roads parted' after becoming a divorcee she was 'no longer regarded as a member' of the Coburg family (of which the Belgians belonged as well as Philip). If I was Louise, apart from the money, I wouldn't consider this disownment by her family a big deal! When LII finally died Louise and Stephanie (united again!) sued his estate claiming that the King's foundation (which he'd set up to hoard his money) wsa founded on royal money (blood money from the Congo being more accurate). LII had claimed in his will that he possessed only the money left to him by his parents--the rest belonged to the Foundation of Niederfullbach. This lawsuit dragged on for years during which Stephanie gave up but Louise, in far worse financial shape and thus more determined, hung on. While she never won the Belgian government decided to put an end to the embarassing matter by settling GBP 230,000 on the two of them (though if I was Louise I would've told Stephanie that quitters don't receive the prize). Of course, following in the pattern of bad luck that was Louise's life, WW1 broke out and prevented the financial disbursment. Thus Louise had to wait until 1918 (11 years after her divorce) to finally receive the sum which the postwar economy would render far less than it would've been in earlier years. She managed to beg and borrow her way through the war but Communist officials (she was residing in Budapest, perhaps near Stephanie?) who would question her were shocked enough to remark that this King's daughter was 'poor than I am!'. In the next few years Louise, like Stephanie, published her memoirs. For whatever reason she dedicated it to the 'Great Man, to the Great King' who was her Father. :o  Louise lived a few more years, dying at age 66, at Wiesbaden in 1924. Her relationship with Mattacic had survived imprisonment, charges of lunacy and forgery, penury and scandal.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on February 18, 2005, 06:06:00 AM
There is no doubt that Léopold II of Belgium was a political genius as well as an excellent king but, as a man, he seems to have been more or less odious. Poor Queen Marie-Henriette was cheated on, despised and ignored. Life between the 2 of them must not have been always happy for Louise, Stéphanie & Clémentine and left obvious marks on them. The girls were scared of their father (though Clémentine later grew quite fond of him) and their mother was very strict and demanding. As far as his daughters are concerned, King Léopold probably resented their being all girls when his only son and heir, their brother little prince Léopold, whom the king doted on, had died at the age of 9 or 10. This loss embittered the lives of both Léopold and Marie-Henriette. To one of his ADCs who told him in later life that he had been happy and fortunate, Léopold is said to have answered : "Happy, I ? I have lost my son !".
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 18, 2005, 09:16:51 AM
Clementine came to be as a last resort  by Leopold II and Marie-Henriette to produce a son...instead, fate dealt the King of the Belgians another blow by giving him a third daughter.  After Clementine's birth tha King gave up completely on his Queen, who herself was a distant mother, constantly at odds with her eldest daughter and warning the middle daughter to remain on guard towards her sister.

Not a happy bunch at laekene, no were they...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2005, 09:48:43 AM
Quote
There is no doubt that Léopold II of Belgium was a political genius as well as an excellent king "

Excellent king????... this was a king who made a fortune out of rape and pillaging in the Congo.  The king was responsible for the deaths of thousands.   He treated the Congo as his private fiefdom.

Here are two highly recommended books  King Leopold's Ghost by Adam Hochschil and European Atrocity by Martin Ewan.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 18, 2005, 10:50:13 AM
Thank you so much for finishing 'the story,'  grandduchessella!  :) There was almost a happy ending (of sorts) in your last line!
Thanks!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 18, 2005, 12:29:28 PM
Yes...but love alone does not a human feed...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: bluetoria on February 18, 2005, 01:14:18 PM
Quote
Yes...but love alone does not a human feed...

Arturo Beéche


As I once discovered to my cost...oh but it was beautiful ;) (If only in retsopect!)

Truly, it makes a romantic STORY at least...wouldn't you say? It's so very John Keats. How sad that reality always intrudes in the form of money.
And after all the awful things that happened to her...AND her own foolishness, the Count stuck by her & she with him. I love the part about the notes being dropped on her lap....it conjures such lovely images...  
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 06, 2005, 01:38:03 PM
Hello  :)

Does anyone have a picture of Pss Antonia of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Fürstin von Kohary, the mother of Ferdinand II, King Consort of Portugal, and grand-mother of Tsar Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, etc?

Thanks in advance

Bernardino
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on December 06, 2005, 04:03:32 PM
I don't think I have ever seen it and that's why it would be very interesting to see it...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2005, 08:54:50 PM
I am sure Arturo would like to share this with us. He has done quite a lot of reseach on the Coburgs and especially on the Kohary branch.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 07, 2005, 01:48:10 PM
Hello  :)

How do I post a picture?  :-[

Thanks
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 12, 2005, 04:31:55 PM
By the way...Did Ferdinand become a Catholic like his wife?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2005, 10:02:08 AM
I don't know, but their children all did... :o
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Grand Duke on December 13, 2005, 01:43:33 PM
Quote
By the way...Did Ferdinand become a Catholic like his wife?

Bernardino,

The King Fernando II, husband of Maria II of Portugal, was the son of Ferdinand, a Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and his wife, Princess Maria Antonia of Kohary, a Catholic Hungarian noblewoman. Because of the inheritance of Kohary, this branch of the previously fully Protestant Coburg family became Catholics, and good marriage material to Catholic royalties.

I hope I answered your question!  ;)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2005, 06:34:07 PM
Yes boy they made good marriages  ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 14, 2005, 09:29:09 AM
thank you...

Antonia brought with her the Catholic religion, lots of money, and ... buuuhhh... the Curse....buuuhhh... :-X

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 14, 2005, 09:31:36 AM
I know Antonia was rich, but how rich ?  ???
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 14, 2005, 09:35:12 AM
 I believe she was one of the richest heirs in all Europe, the Kohary were Hungarian nobles, then Counts till Antonia's father was cr. Fürst, and great land owners in the Danubian plain...they had Khazar origins I believe...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 14, 2005, 09:39:17 AM
Yes..it means like the Tecks, that particular Coburg line also have Hungarian blood. It makes them more interesting and of course rich... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 14, 2005, 09:47:54 AM
   I suppose so... ;D

Prince Ferdinand before marrying Queen Maria II of Portugal, renounced all his Kohary vast inheritance...of course he was completly compensated by his wife's government ( ::))...

I haven't seen Antonia's portrait, but I'm guessing she had a big nose  :), all her children had that characteristic...though it might have been inherited from their grand-mama Duchess Auguste (née Gfn Reuss-Ebersdorf), but I'm more into the first supposition because Auguste's children had more 'soft' faces...

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 14, 2005, 09:57:08 AM
I think her offsprings are all very interesting !  ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 14, 2005, 10:40:03 AM
I couldn´t agree more...those wonderful Coburgs, so well connected...thanks uncle Leopold  ;D !

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Grand Duke on December 14, 2005, 02:10:35 PM
Quote
Prince Ferdinand before marrying Queen Maria II of Portugal, renounced all his Kohary vast inheritance...of course he was completly compensated by his wife's government ( ::))...


Bernardino, if you want to read more about those compensations, click in the link: Fernando II (http://www.arqnet.pt/dicionario/fernando2.html) (only in Portuguese).

Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Grand Duke on December 14, 2005, 04:41:32 PM
Quote
I know Antonia was rich, but how rich ?  ???


Until the time of Francis, Duke of Saxe-Coburg, the Coburgs were minor German potentates. The long history of European wars had not benefited the family especially. Nevertheless, what the family did not gain in wars, it acquired through lucrative marriages.

The Coburg family fortune -- and misfortune -- began when Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha married the Hungarian heiress Antoinette Kohary in 1816. The father of the bride was so pleased with the match that he bequeathed all his worldly possessions to his daughter, thereby disinheriting all the rest of the clan.

Ernst I, Ferdinand's elder brother, in 1817 married Louise, the only surviving child of Duke Frederick of Gotha and Altenburg, whose death triggered a complicated struggle for his inheritance. Ernst received Gotha from the division of inheritance of his deceased father-in-law.

Leopold, Ferdinand and Ernst's brother, in 1816 married Princess Charlotte Augusta, the only legitimate child of the British Prince Regent (later King George IV) and therefore heiress to the English throne. In 1817, Princess Charlotte gave birth to a stillborn son and she herself died the following day. Had she lived, she would have become Queen of the United Kingdom in 1830 on the death of her father, and Leopold presumably would have been the British Prince Consort. But Leopold would be the 1st King of Belgium, in 1831.

Their sister Viktoria married Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. Had he lived, she would have become Queen of the United Kingdom. From this marriage was born only a child, a girl who later become Queen Victoria, when her uncle King William IV died childless.

Ernst I's son, Prince Albert married Queen Victoria and become Prince Consort of UK.

Ferdinand's son, Prince Ferdinand married Queen Maria II and become King-consort of Portugal.
Another son, Prince Augustus had a boy who later become Tsar Ferdinand I of Bulgaria.

Leopold's descendents become Kings of Belgium.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2005, 07:59:25 PM
Yes Augustus married Princess Clementine, King Louis Philippe's embitious daughter. Their youngest son became Tsar of Bulgaria.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Danjel on December 16, 2005, 12:51:33 PM
With thanks to Arturo and his wonderful European Royal History Journal and an Genealogy done by Darren Shelton......a picture of Antonia....!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/kohary.jpg)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 17, 2005, 02:46:19 PM
Very Hungarian looks... :D...Nice picture indeed...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2005, 11:08:09 AM
I have heard she died young too...right ?  ???
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 21, 2005, 02:01:06 PM
When Ferdinand married Maria II of Portugal, she gave his parents the style of 'Royal Highness'.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Prince_Christopher on December 21, 2005, 04:13:08 PM
Who inherited the bulk of Antonia's fortune?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2005, 04:08:03 AM
I think her children...No ?  ???
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: José on December 22, 2005, 02:37:23 PM
Quote
With thanks to Arturo and his wonderful European Royal History Journal and an Genealogy done by Darren Shelton......a picture of Antonia....!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v666/daan73/kohary.jpg)


Can you please post a photo of her husband Ferdinand and her in-laws Francis-Josias and Auguste of Reuss ?

José
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 22, 2005, 03:44:43 PM
Fernando had given up his share of the Kohary inheritance, which passed I believe to August (and Leopold?)...

Fernando's nephew Pr August (son of the above August) married a Maria II's niece: Dona Leopoldina de Bragança, Pss of Brazil. The first years of the marriage ley lived in Brazil (in fact all their children were called 'Dom X'), but they came back to Europe to manage his vast Kohary inheritance.

Unfortunately Leopoldina died shortly after in Vienna. August didn't marry again.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2005, 08:02:12 PM
So it went to Leopoldina's children...Right ?  ???
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on December 23, 2005, 12:52:58 PM
I believe so...but probably by then the Kohary wealth was more divided, because Pr Auguste and Clémentine also had other children beside August (Leopoldina's huisband)...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 23, 2005, 07:40:28 PM
Yes...Philipp of Coburg, Louise of Belgium's husband was one of those.  :(
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on January 05, 2006, 11:06:01 AM
Hello  :)

I was thinking of the Coburg's genealogy and remembered some facts about one of Antonia's descendants: Prince Rainer (1900-1945 ?), the father of Pr Johannes Heinrich (b. 1931 )...

Prince Rainer seems to have been murdered or killed in action in Budapest (1945 )...but there seems to be no correct knowledge of the facts...His mother Pss Carolina, née Archduchess of Austria (-Tuscany) seems also to have been murdered or killed there in the same year... :o

Does anyone knows more facts about this?

Were them Germany's supporters and killed when Hungary was invaded by the Soviet Communists?

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Grand Duke on January 06, 2006, 02:23:06 PM
Hi Bernardino

This is what I know only:

Prince Rainer (1900-1945) was murdered on 7 Jan 1945, in Budapest (tomorrow will be the 61st years after his death!  :o)

His mother Pss Carolina was murdered on 12 May 1945, at Budapest by the Soviet Army.

Sources:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bernardino on January 07, 2006, 03:31:25 PM
Hello Grand_Duke  ;)


Thank you very much...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2006, 03:59:53 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/FerenzKohary.jpg)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2006, 04:01:15 PM
Verz,verz small portrait of Prince Ferenz von Kohary,father of Antonia...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: dboro on January 16, 2006, 11:54:59 AM
Quote
Verz,verz small portrait of Prince Ferenz von Kohary,father of Antonia...


A not that small one...
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/4174_20050508_165201.jpg)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2006, 03:41:02 PM
Thank you DBoro :) I couldn't find bigger...if you find of Antonia,please post!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: dboro on January 17, 2006, 12:01:56 PM
I'll try to... I've found this at accidently at http://www.geocaching.hu/caches.geo?id=1273
It was posted by a young Koháry, Máté Koháry-Kele...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 26, 2006, 05:12:35 AM
I'm looking for infos and pics for Dora of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, ( 1881 - 1967 )
daughter of Louise of Belgium and Philipp of Coburg.

She was married to Ernst Günther of Schleswig-Holstein ( 1863-1921 )
and had no children.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Emilia on March 26, 2006, 06:27:53 AM
She married him when she was barely 16, right? :-?
I think her parents where seperated then, but why did her father allow her to marry this man with a quite (!) bad reputation?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 26, 2006, 07:15:37 AM
And Ernst Günther was 18 years older than Dora.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on March 26, 2006, 07:55:55 AM
Quote
She married him when she was barely 16, right? :-?
I think her parents where seperated then, but why did her father allow her to marry this man with a quite (!) bad reputation?

Apparently both Philipp & Louise agreed to the match but this was not the case of everyone in the family. Dora's grandmother Queen Marie-Henriette of Belgium wrote to her daughter Stéphanie : "About Dora'sw wedding - a mere child to a man old enough to be her father, protestant, fanatic - I would rather not say a word".
Louise was in the middle of her love affair with Mattachich when Dora & Günther became engaged. Philipp Coburg feared that his wife's influence on their daughter might be bad &, together with his prospective son-in-law, imagined a stratagem to take Dora away from her. Mother & daughter were at the time staying in Nice. Günther asked Louise leave to go with Dora to Dresden to meet his mother, giving his word that Dora would be brought back to her later - which she was not.
Louise did not really care about her children when they were small but seems to have become more & more attached to Dora as she grew up. Her daughter's desertion was very painful to her.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Prince_Christopher on March 26, 2006, 09:17:22 AM
Quote
All these pics come from Louise de Saxe-Coburg : an excellent bio of Dora's mother Louise by Olivier Defrance.

Is this biography of Louise available in English?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 26, 2006, 10:28:03 AM
I think her father don't cared much about Dora.

Her husband-to-be was the brother of the German Kaiserin Auguste Victoria,
so he was a good match for the Coburg Family.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Agneschen on March 26, 2006, 12:34:39 PM
Quote
Is this biography of Louise available in English?

Not that I know of but I may be wrong.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Prince_Christopher on March 26, 2006, 04:49:23 PM
Thanks, Agneschen.  It is just so hard to get biographies of some of the lesser known royals here in the U.S.   :-/
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Prince_Christopher on March 26, 2006, 04:52:01 PM
Quote
He was included in a lot of scandals and through this he had a bad reputation. Dora´s father must have known this, but allowed him anyway to marry his only daughter - that´s weird. :P

What were the scandals he was involved in?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 26, 2006, 08:21:31 PM
Well...He is the brother of the Kaiserin Augusta Victoria ! A connection Philip Coburg thinks its useful...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on March 26, 2006, 09:30:27 PM
the wedding

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/dorotheawddngparty11cw.jpg)

In the front row you can see (among others) Marie Coburg, the bride, Marie Louise of Bulgaria, Missy & Ducky. In the back: Ferdinand of Bulgaria, Philip Coburg, groom, Alfred Coburg, Sandra, Ernie, Christian of Schleswig-Holstein (SIL of QV and uncle of groom), Duke Alfred. The well-known photo of Marie Coburg and her 3 eldest daughters in a carriage is from this wedding.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Emilia on March 27, 2006, 02:31:32 AM
Quote
Quote
He was included in a lot of scandals and through this he had a bad reputation. Dora´s father must have known this, but allowed him anyway to marry his only daughter - that´s weird. :P

What were the scandals he was involved in?

In the beginning of Wilhelm II´s rule, there was a scandal about "sex letters" sent to various members of the German aristocracy and it was said that Ernst Günther was the author (according to John Röhl, Wilhelm´s biographer).
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 27, 2006, 06:03:38 AM
John Rohl's books on Wilhelm are a must have... ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2006, 10:40:34 AM
Are Rohl's books worth the price--about $200 for the English versions? It better be a really special book to pry that out of me. The German versions are relatively inexpensive.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Emilia on March 27, 2006, 11:43:15 AM
Quote
Are Rohl's books worth the price--about $200 for the English versions? It better be a really special book to pry that out of me. The German versions are relatively inexpensive.

Röhl´s books on Wilhelm are indeed very good, but extremly politically.
There are actually two "main" books: One focuses on Wilhelm´s youth (1859-1888) and one about his "personal" monarchy (1888-1900), and both have ca. 1000 pages...
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2006, 08:11:58 PM
Thanks for the info. I'd probably be most interested in the first one as I love to read about formative years. There seems to be a lot about family & personal relationships based on quotes.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/188120Dorothea1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Emilia on March 28, 2006, 12:57:19 AM
Quote
Thanks for the info. I'd probably be most interested in the first one as I love to read about formative years. There seems to be a lot about family & personal relationships based on quotes.

I also prefered the first one - it e.g. explaines why Princess Viktoria of Prussia was nicknamed "Moretta". ;)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2006, 06:28:57 AM
The second ones go through his sisters again !  ;D
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marlene on March 28, 2006, 09:38:20 AM
Quote
Quote
All these pics come from Louise de Saxe-Coburg : an excellent bio of Dora's mother Louise by Olivier Defrance.

Is this biography of Louise available in English?


No, it is not.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 19, 2006, 03:33:37 AM
On this website http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Saxe_Coburg_Royal_Family.htm I found the information that Dorothée was also nicknamed "Dolly". Is anybody able to confirm that?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: allanraymond on April 28, 2006, 06:28:15 PM
My source regarding the nickname "Dolly" was The Private Life of Two Emperors - William II of Germany and Francis-Joseph of Austria published by Eveleigh Nash in 1904 (Anonymous author) - Page 68.

Allan Raymond

Quote
On this website http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Saxe_Coburg_Royal_Family.htm I found the information that Dorothée was also nicknamed "Dolly". Is anybody able to confirm that?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 29, 2006, 07:37:59 AM
This information was new to me. Thanks for mentioning the source, Allan.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: ipflo on June 16, 2007, 05:40:13 PM
hi

Does some one knows more about the Coburg-Kohary branche in Hungary itself (other than the Portugal and Bulgaria line of the Kohary's). Who were they, were they part of the Hungarian elite and where did they live. I heard about an Edeleny castle/ mansion in Hungary of the Coburgs. Was this of the Kohary branche. And did Ferdinand of Bulgaria stay on the castles of the Kohary's after his abdication?

thx

ipflo
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: ipflo on June 17, 2007, 02:01:26 PM
I found out that one of the castles owned by the Kohary's was the Antol mansion in what is now Slovakia. I found one website about it: http://www.zamky.sk/event/2007/04/07/month?q=node/3&mon=6021209 However mine Slovakian can use some practice. Does some one has more information about this castle?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: ipflo on June 18, 2007, 03:01:41 PM
I found a very interesting piece about the Antol castle in the English language:

http://www.slovakheritage.org/Castles/st_anton.htm

SVATY ANTON

St. ANTON MANOR HOUSE

A country estate of the Bugarian Czar

I wanted to visit Antol Manor house for many years, as it is written about in many books and tourist brochures as the Hunters museum. As I was going through the village of St. Anton I thought that Antol must be near-by. Passing through the village's historical part on the left side hill was the manor house. They have recently changed their name from Antol to St. Anton as it was called originally many years ago. I have soon discovered that the real triumph of this manor house isn't the hunter's museum at all, but the fact that it was one of the residences of Bulgarian Czar Ferdinand Coburg, the founder of the Bulgarian ruling dynasty.

The village of St. Anton is first mentioned in 1266. St. Anton manor house was built at the end of the 16th century on the site of a small castle due to the Turkish invasions, under the supervision of an Italian master builder Giullio Ferrari. The documents show the manor house only with two wings still in the last decade of the 17th century. Two more wings were added during expansion in years of 1744-1750 to gain the square shape. There is a legend about the manor house having a "year" symbolism in certain features: 4 wings symbolizing 4 seasons, 12 chimneys as 12 months, 52 rooms as 52 weeks, 7 arcades as 7 days in the week and 365 windows as 365 days in the year. Partial reconstruction during the 19th century altered the symbolism and only some details remain. Kohary's family of noblemen owned the manor house in the 17th century. Stefan Kohary II became famous in the defense of Filakovsky castle where he was captured in 1682. He became hereditary count of Hontianska County and gradually became secret adviser to the Emperor Karol III in 1712; counties judge in 1714 and from 1723 a member of the Governor’s Council, the supreme officer of the Hungarian State. In 1732 Andrew Kohary, Stefan’s nephew, was the Main Count of the Hont County. He belonged to the new wave of the Hungarian army aristocracy, faithful to Habsburghs (Habsburghs were a Royal Family), that gained its wealth during the anti Turkish fights. After Andrews’s death in 1757 the manor house became property of his three sons: Mikulas, Ignac and Jan. During their ownership there were no major renovations at the manor house. Ignace's son Frantisek Jozef was the last male survivor of the Kohary family. He made some interior renovations in 18th century and with his death the Kohary's ownership of the castle, as they died out by the sword, transferred to the family Coburg in 1829. Ferdinand Coburg, became the founder of the Bulgarian ruling dynasty of the Coburgs in 1887. He reigned until 1918, since 1908 as the Bulgarian Czar. After the WWI he had to flee Bulgaria and stayed in Coburg, Vienna, in Slovakia-St. Anton and Predna Hora. He was also frequent visitor to the spa at Sliac near Zvolen. He loved music. Last time he stayed in Slovakia was in 1944. In the fall of that year he left for his family seat in Coburg, Austria where he died in 1948. His grandson Simeon is still alive and lives in Madrid, Spain. My personal guide lecturer was a young girl Miroslava Ratkayova from Banska Stiavnica. Her lecturing was excellent, as she was able to answer all of my questions. She knows her stuff very well and at least this way I would like to thank her. While transferring from one part of the publicly accessible part of the manor house to another I noticed on one wall original pictures from building the Statute of Liberty in France before casting and then the casted parts and the erection of the statute in New York. I am sure this must be one of their unknown treasures. Continuing further with the viewing of the manor house representative rooms we entered the Golden Salon, by far the nicest salon on the manor house, just incredible. All walls and ceiling are hand painted. The furniture is from the period of classicism in the style of Louis XVI. The furniture was produced in France in the last third of 18th century. It is carved of lime-wood, gilded with 24-carat gold. The furniture pieces are covered with original embroideries made in the manufacture of Philip de la Salle in Lyon, supplier of luxurious textiles to the French royal court. The salon was the wedding gift of Maria Theresia to her daughter Maria Antoinette who married Louis XVI on January 21, 1793. Maria Antoinette was guillotined on Oct. 16, 1793. Soon we entered Chapel dedicated to the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. Banska Stiavnica's painter A. Schmidt richly decorated it with original frescoes in 1748-1752. They represent the Allegory of the Old and New Testament, the Allegory of the Church and Angels-musicians. Continuing to the main floor I saw a display of hunter’s instruments and many stuffed animals, some of them now extinct in Slovakia. I would strongly recommend that if you are in Slovakia you put the Manor house at St. Anton on your list. Please note that all museums in Slovakia are closed on Mondays. Keep Monday for visiting your relatives or shopping.



Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Greenowl on June 18, 2007, 05:36:50 PM
Thanks for those details about SVATY ANTON, which sounds absolutely fascinating. I was interested in the details about the "year" symbolism. I have never been to Slovakia (although one of my best friends is originally from Bratislava), but this has made me want to visit Slovakis SOON.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on June 24, 2007, 11:50:18 AM
This was a hunting lodge used by the Coburgs, part of the huge inheritance that came from Princess Antonia von Kohary.

After the death of Prince August in 1881, Antal went to his eldest son, Prince Philipp. After his death in 1921 without direct male heirs, what remained of the fortune was divided between his daughter Dorothea and her uncle Ferdinand of Bulgaria and the children of Ferdinand and Philipp's brother, August (1845-1907).  Very few of the once extensive properties of the Kohary inheritance remain in Coburg hands as the bulk of the fortune was in Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, and of course were taken by the blessed Communists after 1945.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on June 29, 2007, 07:31:46 PM
Hi Bernardino

This is what I know only:

Prince Rainer (1900-1945) was murdered on 7 Jan 1945, in Budapest (tomorrow will be the 61st years after his death!  :o)

His mother Pss Carolina was murdered on 12 May 1945, at Budapest by the Soviet Army.

Sources:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO)
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO)



Archduchess Karoline of Austria-Tuscany, Princess August Leopold of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha, die dof natural causes soon after the end of the Second World War.

Her son, Prince Rainer, did succumb to assassination by Communist partisans.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: mitia on July 28, 2007, 10:24:15 AM
I am wondering if anyone would have some information about Princess Clothilde of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary, daughter of Augustus and Clementine d'Orléans. I only know that Clotilde  married Archiduke Joseph of Habsburg Palatin of Hungary and that they had a large descendance, but nothing more. A book is going to be published in a few days about Princess Clementine d'Orléans, maybe some one on this site was associated in this work and already knows whether this new book shall contain information about Clotilde of Saxe Coburg Kohary ? Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: mitia on July 30, 2007, 07:39:22 AM
From what I found with a search with google, the book's tittle is " LA MEDICIS DES COBOURG, Clémentine d'Orléans " by Olivier Defrance who already wrote two books about the Cobourgs from Belgium. The book will be available on august 21th 2007. Did any senior member from this forum contributed to the writting of this new book ? Does anybody know if any previous book about the Cobourgs contain information about Clotilde de Saxe-Coburg-Kohary ? Thanks for helping.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on July 30, 2007, 09:34:58 AM
There's a thread on Clothilde & her husband:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,4173.0.html

Using the search feature might bring up more information--I did a quick basic one.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2007, 07:40:48 PM
Wonder how much the book will cost ? Can we get it on Amazon ?  ???
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: mitia on August 01, 2007, 06:38:54 AM
If you type www.racine.be in google.fr, you shall find the web site of the editor and this particular book in LIVRES A PARAITRE. Apparently it will cost 29,90 Euros ( public price ) and one can order it on line and also find it in bookshops when it is published in a few weeks. I have no idea what the book will be like, but from the author's biography one can tell he studied History in one of the best belgian universities. I red no other book from him before either !
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 09:54:26 PM
thank you...

 Antonia brought with her the Catholic religion, lots of money, and ... buuuhhh... the Curse....buuuhhh... :-X



The "curse" being?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 09:57:16 PM
Yes..it means like the Tecks, that particular Coburg line also have Hungarian blood. It makes them more interesting and of course rich... ;D ;D ;D

The Tecks were as poor as poor can be in royal terms. Franz Teck's marriage to Mary Cambridge was a stroke of luck, if you can believe this, in monetary and dynastic matters.

The Kohary family were, along with the Esterhazy, one of the most powerful landed nobles in the old Austrian Empire.  In fact, Ferdinand Coburg, a poor second son, hit the jackpot when marrying Antonia Kohary!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 09:59:03 PM
I haven't seen Antonia's portrait, but I'm guessing she had a big nose  :), all her children had that characteristic...though it might have been inherited from their grand-mama Duchess Auguste (née Gfn Reuss-Ebersdorf), but I'm more into the first supposition because Auguste's children had more 'soft' faces...


This physical feature had little to do with Antonia Konhary and much to thank Clementine d'Orléans.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 10:04:05 PM
I have heard she died young too...right ?  ???

Antonia Kohary was  65 years old when she died in Vienna in 1862. The age does not seem old to us, but  a century and a half ago that was not as young as we consider it to be today.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 10:13:56 PM
I believe so...but probably by then the Kohary wealth was more divided, because Pr Auguste and Clémentine also had other children beside August (Leopoldina's huisband)...

When Victoire Coburg married the Duc de Nemours she received a considerably sized dowry. Her descendants had no claims to the Kohary fortune.

August and Clementine Coburg's three sons were all recipients of shares of the Kohary inheritance.  Their sisters Clotilde and Amalie were also given considerable dowries when they married Archduke Josef of Austria and Duke Max Emanuel in Bavaria.

Philipp of Coburg was in control of the largest share of the Kohary inheritance. At his death in 1921, his nephews, the children of his brother Ludwig August and his own brother Ferdinand of Bulgaria went to task trying to get a bigger share of the pie. Philipp's only surviving child, Dorothea Augustenburg, and her uncle and cousins had to settle. However, by 1921 the inheritance was no longer all in Austria. ONe could find Kohary properties all over Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Austria, literally from the Alps to the Carpathians.  Large properties were also nationalized by the new governments that succeeded the Habsburg realm, which was terrible for the Coburgs of course...Republicans and anti-monarchists and their penchant for taking what is not theirs.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 10:17:25 PM
Hi Bernardino

This is what I know only:

Prince Rainer (1900-1945) was murdered on 7 Jan 1945, in Budapest (tomorrow will be the 61st years after his death!  :o)

His mother Pss Carolina was murdered on 12 May 1945, at Budapest by the Soviet Army.

Sources:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00014648&tree=LEO)
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00023750&tree=LEO)



Nonsense...Maria Karoline of Austria-Tuscany was not killed by the Communists. She died of natural causes at the end of the war. This was a rumor started by an old English genealogists who is no longer among us...but as wrong as his ego was endowed.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on October 12, 2007, 10:22:55 PM
Wonder how much the book will cost ? Can we get it on Amazon ?  ???

I have been in contact with the author for several years. The book has suffered many delays...trust me when I say that this is common...as a publisher I know the travails we go through some times to get a blessed book to print.

The book, as it is to be published by a company we represent in the USA, will be available through www.eurohistory.com as all of Racine's books are.


Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: krone99 on December 18, 2007, 06:09:20 PM
I am hoping someone can enlighten me with some answers regarding the family Sachsen-Coburg-Koháry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Did the monarchs of Portugal of the dynasty of Sajonia-Coburgo e Bragança maintained their position as titular heads of the Austro-Hungarian (Catholic) branch of the House of Wettin (Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha) also known as "Koháry"

The family of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha (Koháry) in Austria is "independent", and has its own head (currently Prince Johannes Heinrich) but does not constitute its own house; it is in fact a branch of the House of Wettin (Guelphs). As far as I know until the death of D. Manuel II his rights in the Hungarian Magnates' House were deputised to their cousins who became the actual holders of the rights after 1932. The first one being Prince Peter.

2.Did the title of "Prince (German: Fürst/Hungarian: herceg) Koháry de Csábrág et Szitnya" pass down up to the present line after the death of Princess Mária Antónia?

     The marriage agreement between Prince Ferdinand von Sachsen-Coburg-Saarfeld and    Princess Mária Antónia does not mention anything in this regard, nonetheless several    prominent historians name Prince Ferdinad as "founder" of the branch of "Sachsen-Coburg-   Koháry". Wikipedia also mentions the princely title when writing about his heirs. Apparently    none of these princes ever die in either Slowakia or Hungary, so I haven't been able to    control which name they used in these countries.

     Prince Ferdinand further became Hungarian subject of King Ferenc I (Kaiser Franz) when    he was given the Crown lands that belonged to the Kohárys exclusively in the male line as a    gift, but did his heirs continue to be Hungarian subjects? Prince Johannnes Heinrich, the    present family head was born and has lived all his live in Tirol. Nevertheless his father    Prince Rainer married twice to Hungarian ladies, lived and died in Hungary. I haven't been    able to check which nationality he had when in Hungary but when he stayed in Vienna, he    did give "German Empire" (Deutsches Reich) as citizenship to the City Hall. Did he own     anything in present-day Slovakia?

   3. Under which name were these princes enrolled in the Hungarian Magnates's House    (Főrendiház)? Were they represented as Princes "Szász-Koburg-Gotha",  "Koháry" or    ”Szász-Koburg-Koháry?

     4. Which properties in present-day Slovakia and Hungary belonged to Prince Rainer? The    forum has discussed properties of the Bulgarian royals there, but nothing regarding Prince    Rainer who was the titular head of the family? I wonder if after the collapse of the Empire    any of these princes took up Czechslovakian citizenship? I mean Prince Ferdinand Philipp,    Peter and Rainer.
   
     5. Does anyone know if Slovakia has chosen to obey as well the so-called "Beneš    Decrees"?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 23, 2007, 05:07:04 PM
Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary line) lost his rights to the "majorat" that encompassed the Kohary inheritance upon marrying Maria II of Portugal. This "majorat" included the entailed properties of the Kohary family and is was destined to remain undivided and to go to the "head" of the SCG (Kohary line) family. This was done to avoid the constant division of the entailment generation after generation...what they could never think of was that it was to be undone by the bloody communists after 1945.

On the death of Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in 1851, the "majorat" was inherited by his son Prince August (1818-1881), the next brother of Ferdinand of Portugal. 

When August died the "majorat" was inherited by his eldest son Prince Philipp (1844-1921). Philipp's only son, Leopold (1878-1916) died before his father. Upoin Philipp's death in 1921 an argument ensued between his brother Ferdinand of Bulgaria and his nephew August Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha over the control of the "majorat" as Ferdinand wanted more properties to come under his control. Auust Leopold died the following year, leaving three sons: Rainer, Philipp and Ernst – and there was also Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein, daughter and only surviving heiress of Philipp. Eventually a settlement was reached, but for the most part, the "bulk" of the Hungarian and Slovakian properties were left in the hands of Prince Rainer (1900-1945). Prince Philipp (1901-1985) and Prince Ersnt (1907-1978), Rainer's brothers, received Austrian properties. Philipp inherited the massive Coburg Palais in Vienna and the lands and castle of Walterskirchen, which his son Phillipp Jr. continues to own. Ersnt inherited the lands in Schladming (with schütsen schloß) and Gröbming (with a hunting villa). Lands and Castle Ebenthal were shared by all and what is left of that today Prince Philipp Jr farms and divides proceeds among several of the cousins.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: krone99 on December 28, 2007, 11:15:59 AM
Mr. Bechée,

Thank you so much for your in-depth answer but do you know know the answer to any of my other questions? I knew Ferdinand recounced to his Kohary inheritance but NOT to the "Headship" of the Catholic line of the House of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha (Koháry), or did he? Also your explanation forgets Prince Peter (1866-1934) who was the senior prince of the House after King Manuel II and Prince Ferdinand Philipp (1844-1921). According to Wikipedia he was Head of the House. Would you happened to know which properties especifically went to Prince Rainer? Unfortunately all I can find in Slovakia and Hungary are properties that had been torn down for a couple of centuries when he became Head of the family. In Hungary he apparently lived in a simple house when he was arrested by the communists. Was he citizen of Hungary or Czechoslovakia? During his residence in Vienna he noted "Deutsches Reich" as citizenship, yet the descendants of Prince Ferdinand von Sachsen-Coburg und Saarfeld were supposed to be Hungarian subjects...?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Norbert on December 28, 2007, 01:19:28 PM
Surely the founder of the Coburg fortune was the last Imperial Field Marshal Prince Friedrich Josias (who died 1815) and his great niece Juliane who married the Russian Heir Presumptive GD Constantine.

Does anyone have any details of his descendants the Barons Pfeiffer von Ehrenstein Rohmann?

I understood that Philipp of S-C left his estate to Prince Cyril in 1921 ?

Clothilde's son Archduke Joseph was appointed Regent of Hungary in August 1919 but was rejected by the Allies for Horthy. His sister ws married to Duc d'Orleans does anyone have any info on this marriage. I believe Orleans ended up in a mental institution.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2007, 12:57:26 AM
Did he ended up in a mental institution ? I didn't know... :o
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 29, 2007, 06:54:46 PM
No such thing. The Duc d'Orléans died in 1926 without ever having entered or had the need for a mental institution despite the impossible life that his estranged wife Dorothea of Austria gave him.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 29, 2007, 07:01:54 PM
Prince Peter August was safely put away in a mental institution as he went completely mad in the 1890s.

Some are confusing here the "majorat" (entailed property that went to the senior male line of this branch as long as he did not renounce, like Ferdinand of Portugal, or went insane, as Peter August - who by 191 had no idea of what was his name even) which included the Kohary inheritance and which was created to protect the fortune from being dispersed with Headship of House. The "Kohary" branch of the Coburg dynasty did not see itself as a separate dynasty. One thing is their vast wealth and myriad properties, another thing is their membership in the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha dynasty.

The Austrian branch of the Saxe-Coburg dynasty was NOT a separate house under the rubric of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary. The Head of the House of Saxe-Coburg was the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Some historians, myself included, refer to this bracnh as "Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary Line)" to differentiate it branch the main, Protestant line residing in Coburg and Gotha.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 29, 2007, 07:06:43 PM
Surely the founder of the Coburg fortune was the last Imperial Field Marshal Prince Friedrich Josias (who died 1815) and his great niece Juliane who married the Russian Heir Presumptive GD Constantine.

Not really...The Field Marshall's fortune did not come to the main line after his death. Art collections and the Burglaßschloßen – future Coburg residence of the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary Line) princes, reverted to the family. What happened to his money is not known to me...frankly have not paid much attention to it. But the Coburgs were not in financial abundance at the time anyhow.

Julianne's money did not go to her Coburg relations, but to the illegitimates she left behind...whatever there was anyhow.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Norbert on December 30, 2007, 06:44:19 AM
Sorry, I think I have crossed our wires. I did not mean monies with "fortune" but prestige .
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Norbert on December 30, 2007, 07:23:31 AM
Hi Arturo, I have a note that Orleans was being treated in a london clinic in 1925 for "wild deliriums". Sadly I havn't noted the reference but I suspect it came from Royalty Digest. I love the idea of his nick-name "prince mess-tin" don't you? I am intrigued with your statement that Marie Dorothee was impossible can you tell us more please/
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on January 01, 2008, 09:54:54 PM
I have to check on this...he had heart trouble, increased by the excessive smoking that he and so many of his contemporaries were known for.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2008, 11:13:58 PM
Yes...so mant royals died of smoking. It is only now that they start banning smoking.  ::)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Norbert on February 04, 2008, 04:38:14 PM
Hi Arturo, I have a note that Orleans was being treated in a london clinic in 1925 for "wild deliriums". Sadly I havn't noted the reference but I suspect it came from Royalty Digest. I love the idea of his nick-name "prince mess-tin" don't you? I am intrigued with your statement that Marie Dorothee was impossible can you tell us more please/

Obviously not
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: erzsi on February 21, 2008, 01:53:10 PM
Hi,

I´m very intrested what happend to Louises daughter Dora,the only thinks i know is she was born 1881 and die 1969 and in her childhoot she spent a lot of time with her cousine AD Erzsi (daughter of stephanie of belgium and Rudolf crownprince of austria) and later she disliked her mother Louise because of her affair with Mattachich
 Can somebody tell me some facts from her life and send some Picture of her?
It would be very nice
thanks
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 21, 2008, 05:54:41 PM
Not to scare off our newbies (or anyone else) but please check for pre-existing threads before starting new ones. Thanks.  :)

There's some info on Dora on her mother's thread

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,4981.msg250463.html#msg250463
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 22, 2008, 10:10:01 AM
Yes...so mant royals died of smoking. It is only now that they start banning smoking.  ::)

And far too many continue to do it, sadly.

Arturo
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 24, 2008, 03:21:58 PM
Hi Arturo, I have a note that Orleans was being treated in a london clinic in 1925 for "wild deliriums". Sadly I havn't noted the reference but I suspect it came from Royalty Digest. I love the idea of his nick-name "prince mess-tin" don't you? I am intrigued with your statement that Marie Dorothee was impossible can you tell us more please/

The marriage between Louis Philippe and Marie Dorothee was the machination of her grandmother, the former Princess Clementine d'Orléans...I think that soon enough it became clear to both groom and bride that their characters were too disparate.

She spent longer and longer times with her family in Hungary, while letting go of her responsibilities as wife of the French pretender in exile. Not even when Louis Philippe bought her her own yacht was she happy with this. I think that the bad marriage and the absence of children, for the couple did try to conceive, were far too much for them.

Marie Dorothee's demands upon separation were strident and at times beyond the means of her husband.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 24, 2008, 04:23:31 PM
Poor Dora was really sacrificed because of her mother's behavior. Her engagement to Ernst Günther was organized behind her back and quickly so the family could get her away from Louise.

Much has been said about Ernst Günther, but there is just not much to share really about him in English, other than articles in various royalty magazines.

Last year I got a fantastic photo group photo of the wedding of Dora and Ernst Günther...lovely picture...but not  a happy occasion despite the surroundings.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: grandduchessella on February 25, 2008, 11:38:35 AM
Is it the one I have posted on the prior page? I love that photo--so much glitter.  :) I finally had managed to obtain a copy after losing out on ebay a gazillion times.  :P
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on February 28, 2008, 04:06:24 PM
Courtney,

Yes it is...my copy of the photo is a large cabinet card about 15 X 11 inches or so...in excellent condition which I obtained from a descendant of one of the royal guests at the wedding. A lovely image!

Regards,

Arturo
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: The Kohary Karis on May 30, 2009, 08:48:43 PM
hello
was wandering weather anyone here is a kohary?
i am trying to track down precise last records of Kohary's
so i was wandering weather any of u could help me out.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on May 31, 2009, 05:32:50 AM
Here is a genealogy of the Kohary family with Antonia being the last one:

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/kohary.html
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: The Kohary Karis on June 01, 2009, 04:00:46 AM
thanks a lott
ive been having quite a bit of trouble tracking down reliable information
im probably just not that great a researcher.
my aunt has a family tree, but its hard trying to get ahold of her. ill be able to see wheather what ive got is accurate then.
thanks alott!
KK
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on June 01, 2009, 08:07:53 PM
No problem :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: beladona on November 02, 2009, 01:58:35 PM
Wikipedia has a portrait of Antoinette Kohary, wife of Ferdinand Sachsen-Coburg!!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Maria_Ant%C3%B3nia_Koh%C3%A1ry.jpg)

I know, sometimes wikipedia is not best source, but it´s for the first time I saw her portrait. Do you think it´s a right one? :)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 19, 2009, 06:45:21 PM
Whoever posted this image at wikipedia, very likely took it from a Coburg exhibition catalogue from a few years ago. It is indeed Antonia Kohary.

Wikipedia can be tricky. I maintain about 600 articles, all royal, and have to constantly check and take out idiotic information unknown people add to them.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2009, 09:40:20 PM
Indeed. That was the only image I saw of her. I wonder if more portait of her exists.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eurohistory on December 23, 2009, 10:13:18 AM
A descendant of hers in Vienna, whom I visit every so often, has more portraits and photos of Princess Antonia. This is not the only one in existence.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 24, 2009, 10:18:27 AM
Too bad. I think this is the only one that was published.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: José on April 29, 2010, 11:49:30 AM
In her blog Royal Musings, Marlene reports then death of Pr. Johannes-Heinrich of Sx.Coburg-Gotha (1931-2010).

He was first married to pss. Gabriele of Furstenberg and 2ndlyto pss Mathilde of Saxony.

From his 1st marriage he had a daughter, Pss Felicitas, married to Sergei Trotsky; from 2nd marriage, a son, Pr.Johannes-Albrecht, who had been appointed as successor by his uncle the Margkraf of Meissen, but sadly died on a mountain accident in 1987.

Can someone post photos of Pr. Johannes Heinrich, his wives and children ?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: José on May 25, 2010, 12:09:40 PM
Still no pics of the family ? :-(
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Marc on May 25, 2010, 01:17:34 PM
In her blog Royal Musings, Marlene reports then death of Pr. Johannes-Heinrich of Sx.Coburg-Gotha (1931-2010).

He was first married to pss. Gabriele of Furstenberg and 2ndlyto pss Mathilde of Saxony.

From his 1st marriage he had a daughter, Pss Felicitas, married to Sergei Trotsky; from 2nd marriage, a son, Pr.Johannes-Albrecht, who had been appointed as successor by his uncle the Margkraf of Meissen, but sadly died on a mountain accident in 1987.

Can someone post photos of Pr. Johannes Heinrich, his wives and children ?

Thanks in advance.

He was married to Gabrielle,Freiin von Fürstenberg...Princely and Baronial family zu Fürstenberg are not related in male line!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: José on May 27, 2010, 09:57:20 AM
Thanks, I know that.

I just wanted to see photos from the family.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Danjel on July 15, 2010, 06:53:45 PM
Two pictures of Johannes Heinrich
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/193120Johann1.jpg)

(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/1931johannesheinrichsaxecoburggotha.jpg)

one with his 2nd wife
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/1931johannesheinrichsaxecoburggo-1.jpg)

and one with his 2nd wife and their son (who died at a young age) (Picture thanks to Mardam www.royaltyguide.nl)
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/scan0073-kopie2.jpg)

his daughter Felicitas with her mother Gabriele
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/1958felizitassaxecoburggothaxTrotzk.jpg)

and the wedding of Felicitas
(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/1958felizitassaxecoubrggotha.jpg)

(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/1958felizitassaxecoubrggothaa.jpg)

(http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/af112/Royaldaan/Trotzki.jpg)
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: HerrKaiser on July 15, 2010, 10:20:35 PM
another of the few who were around when the real royal famillies were of high social, political, and economic status. RIP and the few remaining are museums in real life.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Chablais on July 21, 2010, 09:05:58 AM
Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary line) lost his rights to the "majorat" that encompassed the Kohary inheritance upon marrying Maria II of Portugal. This "majorat" included the entailed properties of the Kohary family and is was destined to remain undivided and to go to the "head" of the SCG (Kohary line) family. This was done to avoid the constant division of the entailment generation after generation...what they could never think of was that it was to be undone by the bloody communists after 1945.

On the death of Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in 1851, the "majorat" was inherited by his son Prince August (1818-1881), the next brother of Ferdinand of Portugal. 

When August died the "majorat" was inherited by his eldest son Prince Philipp (1844-1921). Philipp's only son, Leopold (1878-1916) died before his father. Upoin Philipp's death in 1921 an argument ensued between his brother Ferdinand of Bulgaria and his nephew August Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha over the control of the "majorat" as Ferdinand wanted more properties to come under his control. Auust Leopold died the following year, leaving three sons: Rainer, Philipp and Ernst – and there was also Dorothea of Schleswig-Holstein, daughter and only surviving heiress of Philipp. Eventually a settlement was reached, but for the most part, the "bulk" of the Hungarian and Slovakian properties were left in the hands of Prince Rainer (1900-1945). Prince Philipp (1901-1985) and Prince Ersnt (1907-1978), Rainer's brothers, received Austrian properties. Philipp inherited the massive Coburg Palais in Vienna and the lands and castle of Walterskirchen, which his son Phillipp Jr. continues to own. Ersnt inherited the lands in Schladming (with schütsen schloß) and Gröbming (with a hunting villa). Lands and Castle Ebenthal were shared by all and what is left of that today Prince Philipp Jr farms and divides proceeds among several of the cousins.

Arturo Beéche

This quite old post is so interesting! Are there photos of the castles in Walterskirchen, Schladming, Grobming, Ebenthal, Gerasdrof?
Did prince Ludwig, son of August, also received a share of his cousin Philipp inheritance? Was he a part in the dispute with August Leopold and Ferdinand of Bulgaria?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 17, 2010, 06:44:27 PM
I was surprised when I found out that Antonia Koháry had some royal ancestry: She was descended from King Christian IV of Denmark, who was her maternal 4x great grandfather, through his morganatic daughter Leonora Christine, Countess of Slesvig, of imprisoned literary fame and her husband Corfitz Ulfeldt of treacherous infamy!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Kalafrana on October 18, 2010, 10:01:32 AM
Going back to an early post, the Coburgs suddenly burst onto the European 'royal scene' in the one generation when Leopold married Princess Charlotte and later became King of the Belgians, Victoire married Edward Duke of Kent, and the Kohary marriage took place. Apart from the Kohary money, is there any reason why the Coburgs suddenly became marriageable?

Ann
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eutropius on October 18, 2010, 12:54:29 PM
I though it was really more with the marriage of Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich in 1796 to Princess Juliane (Anna Feodorovna) of Saxe-Coburg.  I remember reading that Catherine II thought highly of Duchess of Saxe-Coburg (Auguste).  Three of the daughters went to visit and Catherine liked them all.  The Duchess, like the Landgravine of Darmstadt (mother of Paul's first wife Natalia Alexeievna) and the Hereditary Princess of Baden (mother of Tsarina Elizaveta Alexeievna, seems to have been an intelligent and dynamic woman. 
All I can recall about the Duke (Franz) of Saxe-Coburg was that he was something of an invalid.  The Duke of Saxe-Coburg did have some powerful relatives.  His mother was a Princess of Brunswick-Wolfenbuettel, which made him a nephew by marriage of King Friedrich II of Prussia, a first cousin of King Friedrich Wilhelm II of Prussia, etc.
This following piece is only my opinion.  Catherine II was born a minor princess (Anhalt-Zerbst) herself.  I don't think that great birth was something she looked for when finding brides for her son or her grandsons.
After the separation/divorce of Konstantin and Anna Feodorovna, I read that the Russians disliked the Coburgs.  Prince Leopold was a fairly impoverished military officer.  He was lucky enough to be handsome, eligible, and in the right place at the right time.  Princess Charlotte also had the support of her grandmother Queen Charlotte.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eutropius on October 18, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
Going along with my argument of being in the right place at the right time, being a poor younger son played in Leopold's favor.  I read that Princess Charlotte broke off her engagement with the Prince of Orange, because she would be expected to move to the Netherlands.  She wanted to remain in England where she could support her mother.  Compared to the sleazy Prussian Prince Augustus that Princess Charlotte had been flirting with, Prince Leopold seemed sensible and respectable.  That's how she got the support of her family.

Again my opinion, but I don't think that the Kohary marriage/wealth benefited the other lines of the family very much.  They didn't marry until 1816.  Keep in mind that Prince Kohary (Princess Antonie's father) didn't die until 1826.  I doubt he would have bankrolled his daughter's new relatives.  When Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were courting, there was distrust/negative comments about the how "Catholic" the Coburgs had become.  They were also considered to be mercenary (Leopold and his 50,000 pounds per annum). Duchess Auguste, who came from a devoutly protestant background (her Great Uncle by marriage, Count Zinzendorf, was a major figure in the Moravian Church), felt a need to defend herself about the Kohary marriage saying that she couldn't stop two people in love.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Kalafrana on October 19, 2010, 03:22:48 AM
Eutropius

Many thanks for all these interesting details.

Ann
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2010, 11:30:48 AM
I read somewhere that the infamous "Coburg curse" came with the Kohary family ?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 27, 2010, 03:17:20 AM
I read somewhere that the infamous "Coburg curse" came with the Kohary family ?

If so, I am convinced it's because they are descended from the morganatic royal son-in-law and traitor Corfitz Ulfeldt (Antonia's 3x great grandfather), one of the few people to have had a monument erected in his dishonour! It bore the inscription: Corfitz WF [Ulfeldt] forrćderen, Till Ćwig Spott, Skam og Skiendsel. = Corfitz WF [Ulfeldt] the traitor. In eternal disgrace, shame and dishonour.
(From 1663 to 1841 it stood outside his former house on Copenhagen's Grey Friars Square, now it can be viewed in the National Museum, see here (http://www.google.no/images?hl=no&q=Corfitz%20Ulfeldts%20skamst%C3%B8tte&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=585).)

Murdered Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme's wife Baroness Lisbet Beck-Friis was also descended from Corfitz Ulfeldt......
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Kalafrana on October 27, 2010, 03:24:30 AM
What did the dreadful Corfitz actually do? And what is the curse?

Regards

Ann
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 27, 2010, 03:44:55 AM
What did the dreadful Corfitz actually do?

One thing is that as Steward of the Realm and Governor of Copenhagen he embezzled government money, did his utmost (as a high noble and member of the Council of the Realm) to limit his brother-in-law Frederik III's constitutional powers when Frederik was elected king and was one of the Crown's biggest creditors (always a good reason to get rid of somebody!), but he later intrigued and plotted against the King and went over to the Swedes during the critical period when Denmark was life-threateningly maimed (loss of the Scanian Lands) and came close to being extinguished (the Carl Gustav Wars that ended with the Peace of Roskilde in 1658.)

(NB 1864 was not the first time Denmark was saved by a miracle! And NB II the failure of the government by the noble Council of the Realm and its elective monarchy in that crisis was what enabled Frederik III to stage a coup in 1660 and make himself hereditary, absolutist monarch. He was officially offered the crown on those conditions by Fridtjof Nansen's distant ancestor Hans Nansen, Mayor of Copenhagen, on behalf of the third estate, but modern historians suspect that Frederik III was not as taken by surprise by that offer as he appeared to be.....)

Corfitz Ulfeldt himself escaped and his effigy executed in absentia, but his loyal wife Leonora Christine, Countess of Slesvig, Christian's IV's morganatic daughter, was arrested in London and extradicted to Denmark by her cousin once removed King Charles II and imprisoned for co-conspiracy for life in very sad conditions in the Blue Tower of old Copenhagen Castle. There she wrote a masterpiece of early modern Danish literature, "Jammersminde", Memory of Misery, a very interesting account of her 21 years of imprisonment. (it was mostly due to her sister-in-law Queen Sophie Amalie of Brunswick-Lunebourg (she was the sister-in-law of the Electress Sophia) and her hatred of Leonora Christine that she was treated so harshly, her conditions were eased when the old queen died.)

Ulfeldt had loaned Queen Christina of Sweden money when she wanted to go to Rome and he and his children (who already were Counts of the Empire) became Catholics and moved to Austria, where they went into Imperial service.

Quote
And what is the curse?
In reality: Rubbish. Those who think the Saxe-Cobourgs are cursed have not read enough about other RFs, who all are tragic in some way or the other too.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 27, 2010, 04:24:17 AM
BTW Mayor Hans Nansen's sister married Peder, Count Griffenfeldt (né Schumacher), the guy who wrote Frederik III's absolutist constitution, the Lex Regia that proved central in the Schleswig-Holstein Question. He later also fell into disgrace (the official charge was corruption) and lived out his days as a prisoner on a Norwegian Alcatraz, Munkholmen Fortress outside Trondheim. His daughter Charlotte Amalie, though, became the ancestress of the Counts Krag-Vind-Juel-Frijs. Count Mogens K-V-J-F, married to a Countess Danneskiold-Samsře (royal morganauts) played a central role in the Change of System in 1901, when Christian IX had to give up his absolutism and appoint a cabinet with a parliamentary majority.

One can construct an awful lot of conspiracy theories and curses.... What will happen when descendants of Ulfeldt, Griffenfeldt and Struensee (his blood runs in the Augustenbourgs, who again became traitors in 1848!), the three disgraced traitors of Danish history, intermarry? What will that "traitors' spawn" do to Denmark..... But don't worry: Legend says that Holger Danske, the Ogier le Danois of chansons de geste, will wake up from his slumber in the vaults of Kronborg Castle aka Elsinor and save Old Denmark, like it was saved in 1658 and 1864!
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Kalafrana on October 27, 2010, 05:01:21 AM
Фёдор Петрович

Many thanks. It sounds a perfect plot for a historical novel!

As to the supposed curse, the Coburgs have prospered rather than the reverse.

Ann
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 27, 2010, 05:06:14 AM
Do also take a look at beautiful Holckenhavn Castle (http://www.google.no/images?um=1&hl=no&biw=1366&bih=585&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=Holckenhavn&btnG=S%C3%B8k&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=) on Funen, originally Ulfeldtsholm, as it was the Ulfeldts' residence since the 15th century. Curiously they sold it to Ellen Munk née Marsvin, the mother of Kirsten Munk, Countess of Slesvig, Christian IV's morganatic wife. Through her daughter Leonora Christine it briefly passed back to the Ulfeldts, untill it was confiscated after their fall and given to a Baron Holck (Commander of Kronborg) who had risen to prominence during the aforementioned Wars with Sweden. (His father-in-law the Vice-Chancellor Holger Vind was engaged to Leonora Christine's sister Sophie Elisabeth, Dowager Countess Pentz, but broke off the engagement when the "Party of the Sons-in-Law" fell out of favour upon Ulfeldt's fall from grace. Such morganatic royal ancestry would have been very interesting, considering that:) The first Baron Holck of Holckenhavn's 3x great grandson was Vilhelm Frimann Marcher the ill-fated father of Princess Thyra's illegitimate child.

Danmark er sĺmćnd et lille land - Denmark is indeed a small country....
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Hector on January 06, 2012, 05:19:46 PM
Just curious where the Kohary branch of Saxe-Coburgs live in Vienna before they built the Palais Coburn?
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2012, 01:37:07 PM
Most likely they rented townhouses in Vienna before that as most royals do.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Hector on January 07, 2012, 03:08:28 PM
Wouldn't the Kohary in-laws have had a residence?

Most likely they rented townhouses in Vienna before that as most royals do.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bourgogne on August 18, 2012, 04:07:42 PM

(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/loali2/august2.jpg)

Are you sure this is Gusty ?

Looks more like a young Philip of Sx C G

Yes, you're right, this is not Gusty but Philip... Here are August of SG and Clementine of Orleans, with their children in 1863 :

From left to right Clotilde, Amélie, Philip, Ferdinand and Gusty...

(http://altesses.eu/sn/clem.jpg)


Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 18, 2012, 05:35:19 PM
I wonder if they have a reunion photo of their families too.
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bourgogne on August 19, 2012, 04:37:30 PM
I wonder if they have a reunion photo of their families too.

Excuse me, but "they" = who...?   
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2012, 08:56:41 PM
The family of August & Clementine.
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bourgogne on August 20, 2012, 07:54:45 PM
But...?? the picture I've posted is precisely a reunion photo of the family of Auguste and Clementine...
??
(Sorry I must be stupid lol)
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 23, 2012, 09:30:47 AM
I mean years later with their children.
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bourgogne on August 23, 2012, 09:22:11 PM
I mean years later with their children.

Ah ok, you mean Clotilde with her husband and children, Gusty with his wife and his children, and so on... Well, yes, definitively there must be some pictures like this... A.o. there are a lot of nice illustration of the whole family (Saxe-Cobourg, Braganza, Bavaria, etc.) in the book "Clémentine d'Orléans" by Olivier Defrance (in french).
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2012, 09:43:28 AM
That is why I say reunion. In the photo above, the children were not married.
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Bourgogne on August 24, 2012, 07:29:14 PM
That is why I say reunion. In the photo above, the children were not married.

Ah then ok, everybody together! All the brothers and sisters with each one his/her consort and children, all on the same picture. Well in this case, it would be indeed a beautiful photo, but I don't know if it does exist, I've never seen the whole family together after their respective marriages.
Title: Re: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 25, 2012, 10:16:23 AM
I think I have seen partial ones with Clementine with some of her children and grandchildren, but not all together. The reason was that Amalie for one died early.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Превед on March 11, 2014, 11:56:47 AM
Hoho, gonna spend a week this summer in Styrian Schladming, where the local town hall was built as Palais Coburg in 1884 by (presumably) Prince Ludwig August von S-C-G-Koháry. His son August Leopold apparently died there.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Rathaus_Schladming.jpg/640px-Rathaus_Schladming.jpg)

I'm equally pleased by Schladming being a Slavic place name, from Old Slovenian (Windish) slabnik, slapnik, gorge valley, waterfall, mountain stream.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Clemence on June 24, 2014, 01:46:31 PM
I was consulting Wikipedia about Prince Leopold Clement and I noticed this on the ''talk'' page:

Quote
The text says that "marrying Rybicka would have forced [Leopold] to resign his officer's commission." It does not explain why. Were officers of his rank forbidden to marry? Would being married to a commoner cause a demotion in royal rank that would keep him from serving in that regiment? Were newlyweds forbidden from serving in combat, which his regiment was about to enter? Inquiring minds want to know. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 14:02, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I am one of the inquiring minds, and I cannot answer your question. The source provides no explanation but appears to suggest that such a marriage would have been improper. I'll try asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Surtsicna (talk) 15:47, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prince_Leopold_Clement_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Prince_Leopold_Clement_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha)

Maybe someone here could help us with this one.
Title: Re: The Saxe-Coburg, desd. of Prince Ferdinand and Antonia Kohary
Post by: Kalafrana on September 22, 2017, 08:34:54 AM
At that time, and to some extent even today in the British forces, an officer was required to get his Commanding Officer's permission to marry. If he insisted on marrying someone considered unsuitable, he would be told discreetly to move to a less choosy regiment.

According to Gregory Tcherbatoriev(sp?) in Russia, my Native Land the officers of Russian regiments would hold a mess meeting to decide whether the lady concerned could be welcomed into the regiment. I would guess that on most occasions there would be no issue, but, interestingly, the author said that members of the great Moscow merchant families were not considered to be suitable brides for Guards officers because there was a sense that it was not possible to make lots of money in an honourable fashion. Unlike the British Army, however, actresses were acceptable provided they gave up the professional stage before marriage.

Since Leopold Clement was in his 30s, he was senior enough to marry (in the British Army then it was considered improper for any officer below the rank of Captain to marry); the issue was the lady's background.

Ann