Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Wittlesbachs => Topic started by: kmerov on February 02, 2005, 09:42:24 AM

Title: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 02, 2005, 09:42:24 AM
Why was so many of them insane, if you can answer that question?
I have read that Ludwig II wasnt really mad and it was staged so he could be removed from the throne. Is that true, and does someone know some more?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marlene on February 02, 2005, 09:50:31 AM
Quote
Why was so many of them insane, if you can answer that question?
I have read that Ludwig II wasnt really mad and it was staged so he could be removed from the throne. Is that true, and does someone know some more?



Genetics.  A really good bio on Ludwig was written by Greg King.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 02, 2005, 09:59:46 AM
Were there more cousin marriages between them, then other royal houses?
Thanks for the bio tip :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on February 02, 2005, 10:18:40 AM
Quote
I have read that Ludwig II wasnt really mad and it was staged so he could be removed from the throne. Is that true, and does someone know some more?


That biography by Greg King is wonderful...Ludwig certain DOES seem extremely unbalanced. He seems to have cut himself off completely from reality & lives entirely in some fantasy world based on Wagner's operas.
I don't doubt he could not help himself but his reaction to poor Sophie (whom he might have married) is quite appalling: one minute sending her letters filled with his love for her, then suddenly glad to be rid of her...She might have had a lucky escape, but for the worse fate that befell her!  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Jim1026 on February 02, 2005, 10:38:43 AM
Quote
Were there more cousin marriages between them, then other royal houses?
Thanks for the bio tip :)[/quote

The Hapsburgs also intermarried alot.  Thus the Hapsburg jaw.  There Uncles married Nieces.  But Ernst I Duke of Saxe Coburg Gotha's second wife was his niece. :P
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 02, 2005, 06:58:37 PM
I'm not sure Ludwig was actually diagnosed, or would be consider today, as literally "insane". His quirks and behavior were surely eccentric and neurotic, but insane? Hmmmm.

Every tour of the area I have ever participated in tell that he was murdered, not suicide. And that he was homosexual, having an intimate relationship with his doctor. I have not read the book referred to above; does this information from Bavaria track?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 02, 2005, 07:08:06 PM
I think there is plenty of evidence that he had intimate realtions with more men than his doctor. A study came out a few years ago that I was told about [I do not read German] that pretty much verified his sexuality and the murder scenario. I could be wrong but I think it [the report, article, whatever it was] had to with with an anniversary or the  renovation of his tomb.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eurohistory on February 02, 2005, 08:33:28 PM
The madness of King Ludwig II cannot be argued to have been caused by any intermarriage.

The gene was certainly inherited from his parents, a mutation perhaps could explain it...but Maximilian II and Marie (née Prussia) of Bavaria were not closely related...thus I would discount intermarriage being the cause for the King's malady.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 10:11:05 AM
I dont believe that intermarriages can explain madness as such, and every time.
Many royalty werent mad just because their families had alot of cousin marriages.
I just saw a british documentary that said that even between siblings, there was 90% chance of the children would be "normal", and for non related it would be 96%.

What happend to Sophie after Luwig II?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on February 03, 2005, 10:12:36 AM
She had an unhappy marriage to the Duc D'Alencon & was burned to death in fire at a charity bazaar.  :(
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 10:14:56 AM
God, that doesnt sound very fun. I suddenly feel bad for the pour thing...
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eurohistory on February 03, 2005, 10:17:44 AM
Like her sisters Duchess Sophie in Bavaria had a troubled existence.  Yes she died in the Charity Bazaar in Paris, a harrowing death.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 10:17:57 AM
Would you say that Ludwigs brother, Otto was more mad/insane than him?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eurohistory on February 03, 2005, 10:25:31 AM
Oh Gosh, completely bonkers!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 03, 2005, 10:37:41 AM
Yes, of the padded cell variety, poor guy. He did recieve a full state funeral though.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 10:43:21 AM
Hehe, im surprised that they would let him be king for so long, when they had the right to remove him! Or didnt they?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 03, 2005, 10:49:11 AM
He did succeed to the the throne after his brother's death, but "ruled" under the regency of his uncle Luitold who replaced him as king in 1913. Otto died in 1916.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 03, 2005, 07:36:58 PM
Crazy or not, Ludwig was a physical specimen of grand stature. He was about 6 feet 7 inches tall, and weighted about 230 pounds. As a younger man, he remained in good shape, so he was quite good looking and a very impressive sight to behold.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 07:45:48 PM
What is that in centimeters and kilos?  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 03, 2005, 07:54:17 PM
Just over 2 m & 104 k..I think
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 03, 2005, 08:03:50 PM
Thank you. That is quit big!

Who were Duchess Sophie sisters?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eurohistory on February 03, 2005, 08:29:52 PM
Helene, Fürstin von Thurn und Taxis (1834-1890)

Elisabeth, Empress of Austria, Queen of Hungary (1837-1898)

Marie, Queen of the Two Sicilies (1841-1925)

Mathilde, Countess of Trani (1843-1925)

Helene widowed at 33.  Elisabeth assassinated at 61(her only son committed suicide), Marie in a helplessly unhappy marriage, Mathilde widowed at 43 after her husband committed suicide.

Not a happy bunch...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 05, 2005, 12:13:18 PM
Regarding Otto, couldnt they just have made his uncle king from the beginning, when they did it later?
What changed the situation?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 05, 2005, 12:27:21 PM
Was the Thurn und Taxis family a former ruling house in Germany?
And if such, what did they rule?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: crazy_wing on February 06, 2005, 03:12:04 PM
the thurn and taxis family never ruled.  The were raised to princes for their communication/mailing services to the Austriam emperor.   They profited from their business and were very rich.  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 06, 2005, 04:44:51 PM
Thank you. So the family were/was nobility.
But a nice way to say thank you for you services..
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 09, 2005, 01:44:11 PM
Can someone explain why Sissis ducal family were
"in Bavaria" and not "of Bavaria".
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on February 09, 2005, 03:53:20 PM
They were "in Bavaria" because they were only a collateral branch of the ruling house of the Wittelsbachs.
Duke Max was granted the title of "royal highness" only in 1845.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on February 09, 2005, 05:29:32 PM
I see, thank you :).
From whom did the family descend? Was it a Wittelsbach of the main branch?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Guinastasia on March 22, 2005, 04:34:35 PM
Quote
She had an unhappy marriage to the Duc D'Alencon & was burned to death in fire at a charity bazaar.  :(



According to Greg's book (which I just started-and I'm finding it fascinating!), their marriage was actually very happy.  He also says that she died because she refused to leave until all of the other girls around her were rescued.  

Poor thing.

I'm finding the individual Lola Montez very interesting.  Anyone know of any good books on her?  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on March 22, 2005, 04:39:49 PM
I have a brilliant book on Lola Montez - 'Lola Montez - A life' by Bruce Seymour (Yale University Press)  :)

I'm glad Sophie had a happy marriage...I thought it was otherwise?? Must find out more!
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Guinastasia on March 22, 2005, 05:18:59 PM
Cool, I'll have to see if I can't find it.

Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on March 22, 2005, 05:35:36 PM
Perhaps I ought to add that although the book is brilliant, Lola Montez herself comes over as a very (to me) selfish person who repeatedly uses people to advance her position. She is always striking out at people, dropping her lovers when it suits her, lying & twisting things, and used poor King Ludwig terribly!!
If you do manage to find it, I'd be interested to hear your opinion  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Guinastasia on March 22, 2005, 06:09:30 PM
Oh, I'm aware of that.  In a way, that makes it a bit more interesting-part of the reason I loved the book Vanity Fair, for example, was because Becky Sharp was such a hateful individual.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on March 23, 2005, 05:04:23 AM
Quote


...their marriage was actually very happy.  



 


Hi Guinastasia  :)
I was trying to find a series of quotations from Sophie that expressed her unhappiness but I cannot find them anywhere. (I wish I could!)
I did however discover an article (though I cannot verify the accuracy of it) which claims that even before her marriage Sophie was in love with Edgar Hanfstangl, the lowly son of a photographer (whom, of course, she was not allowed to marry). After her marriage - during which (according to this article) her husband bullied her into submission - she wrote many letters to Edgar although she never sent them to him. When her husband discovered them he summoned a doctor who prescribed ice cold baths to cure her 'sexual obsession' with Edgar. (Poor, poor woman!!) The article was one I obtained from somewhere ages ago (but I'm not sure where from) so, as I wrote, I really do not know how true this is. The quotations that I had, though, were authentic & they did seem to express a lot of unhappiness in her life  :-/ and it seemed she was almost (much in the same way as her sister, Sissi) was almost waitinf for death.


Returning to Lola Montez & Ludwig I. The affair was common knowledge & Ludwig, who until then had been a very popular (and pious) king became much disliked by the people who pitied and loved his wife (where have we heard that recently??). The rumours that he was making such a fool of himself spread quickly through Europe & there is a letter from his sister Charlotte, urging him to end the affair:

"What about theexample you're setting? The world forgives this type of thing in young men, but in old men....think of your subjects...Brother, have mercy on your soul, your country and on me for writing this to you, but I want to be ableto look at you with pride - release her hand from you, fill it, give her money, lots of it if necessary, as long as she leaves. Each word of this letter pains me...Use your mind. Use your will! I pray to God to help you."

Needless to say, Ludwig refused her advice and became more & more unpopular, leading Palmeston to write:

"I am using a mild expression when Isay the King is most unpopular with the mass of people."
Eventually he was forced to abdicate. (19th March 1848)

The sad part is, IMO, Lola was really just leading him on. Every time she needed anything she protested her love for him & he couldn't resist...meanwhile she had several other lovers at the same time.
It's a very sad story of manipulation, I think. And the person I pity most of all in the saga, is Ludwig's faithful, loyal and wronged wife to whom he had been married for over 30 years when the affair began. (She died of cholera before he was finally forced to abdicate.)



Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: allanraymond on March 23, 2005, 01:00:11 PM
Quote
He did succeed to the the throne after his brother's death, but "ruled" under the regency of his uncle Luitold who replaced him as king in 1913. Otto died in 1916.


It was Luitpold's son Ludwig (as Ludwig III) who succeeded Otto as King. Luitpold died in 1912.

Otto retained his title as King of Bavaria but lost all claim to actually reign, thus uniquely giving Bavaria two simultaneous Kings until Otto's death in 1916.

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: allanraymond on March 23, 2005, 02:01:22 PM
Quote
I see, thank you :).
From whom did the family descend? Was it a Wittelsbach of the main branch?


The following may be of some help?

The common ancestor of the Kings/Dukes of Bavaria and Dukes in Bavaria was a certain Count Christian 1 of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler (1598-1654).

Count Christian II (1637-1717) of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler (a son of Christian 1 above) is a direct ancestor of the Kings/Dukes of Bavaria.

Johann Karl  (1638-1704) of Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen  (another son of Christian 1 above) is a direct ancestor of the Dukes in Bavaria.

Now possibly the interesting part?

Christian II’s great grandson Count Maximilian of Birkenfeld-Zweibruken  (1756-1825) later Duke of Zweibruken became the first King of Bavaria in 1805 (as Maximilan I).

Johann Karl’s grandson Duke Wilhelm of Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen (1752 - 1837) married Countess Marie Anne of Birkenfeld-Zweibruken (1753 - 1824) who was a sister of King Maximilian I of Bavaria  

Maximilian I conferred the title Duke in Bavaria on his brother-in-law Wilhelm.

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: allanraymond on March 23, 2005, 02:09:58 PM
Quote
She had an unhappy marriage to the Duc D'Alencon & was burned to death in fire at a charity bazaar.  :(


I can't recollect my source but 200 other individuals lost their lives in the fire.

Allan Raymond    
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: allanraymond on March 23, 2005, 02:22:50 PM
Quote
Helene, Fürstin von Thurn und Taxis (1834-1890)

Elisabeth, Empress of Austria, Queen of Hungary (1837-1898)

Marie, Queen of the Two Sicilies (1841-1925)

Mathilde, Countess of Trani (1843-1925)

Helene widowed at 33.  Elisabeth assassinated at 61(her only son committed suicide), Marie in a helplessly unhappy marriage, Mathilde widowed at 43 after her husband committed suicide.

Not a happy bunch...

Arturo Beéche


Art

I've got  a cryptic note in my files to say that one of the sisters drowned. I have no idea where I got this from. Can you shed any light on this or if another member of the family drowned (ignoring Ludwig)?

Regards

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: felix on March 23, 2005, 02:50:28 PM
I have "The Heavenly Sinner ,The Life and Loves of Lola Montez" 1935,by T.Everett Harre. A very fun book. She didnt do to bad for an Irish girl.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: kmerov on March 23, 2005, 03:09:01 PM
Allanraymond, thank you for the interesting facts you posted!  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Guinastasia on March 23, 2005, 06:50:43 PM
Oh, I know she was a horrible manipulative woman, but I LOVE reading about villains.  They're so much more fun!  

As for Sophie, I'm just going by what I read in Greg King's book (BTW, Greg, if you're reading this, so far I'm hooked!).

Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on March 24, 2005, 03:45:55 AM
Hi bluetoria ! We have already discussed Sophie in the Sissi thread (p.6&7) :

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=wilhelm;action=display;num=1103220040;start=125

Edgar and Sophie had a brief flirtation while she was engaged to King Ludwig but that is all. Sophie broke off with Edgar before King Ludwig broke off with her and never saw or heard again about him. There are stories of her dying in his arms but this is pure fancy.
I believe you can read French so I recommend you the excellent bio by Dominique Paoli La Duchesse d'Alençon - Sophie-Charlotte, soeur de Sissi.

Neither of the Bavarian sisters ever got drowned AllanRaymond. Sophie and Sissi both died dreadful deaths (Sissi stabbed and Sophie burnt). Helene died rather young but Marie & Mathilde reached quite a respectable age.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on March 24, 2005, 04:34:14 AM
Thank you, Agneschen  :)
I thought I had seen more about Sophie somewhere but couldn't remember where & couldn't find it! Thanks!
I was dubious about the claims in the article concerning Sophie & Edgar (& it seemed completely impossible that she could have died in his arms - in the middle of a fire!). Thanks you for clarifying that. Also thanks for your recommendation of the book....there are about 25 books I need to find & read now!! Thank you  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: TampaBay on March 25, 2005, 07:12:25 AM
Quote
the thurn and taxis family never ruled.  The were raised to princes for their communication/mailing services to the Austriam emperor.   They profited from their business and were very rich.  


They still are very rich.  In the 80's and 90's there was a princess by marriage named Gloria thurn and taxis all over the US media (upscale mamgazines and Oprah Winfrey, David Letterman show).  She was nicknamed "TNT".  Her husband died and her young son (10-15 years ago) is now head of the house.  

She calmed down and became boring and respectable after the death of her husband-Dropped off the radar.

She had alot of style and class.  On the wild side but not eurotrash.

TampaBaY
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on March 25, 2005, 10:31:31 AM
Quote

After her marriage - during which (according to this article) her husband bullied her into submission - she wrote many letters to Edgar although she never sent them to him. When her husband discovered them he summoned a doctor who prescribed ice cold baths to cure her 'sexual obsession' with Edgar.



 

 



The author of the article must have got something mixed up here.
Sophie was indeed sent to a private mental asylum after her affair with Dr. Glaser 1887.
They had eloped to Meran, were however caught and separated, and when Sophie was found out to be still exchanging letters with him, she was sent to the private asylum to be cured from her "aberration".
Her sister Elisabeth wouldn't be sympathetic by the way . . .
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on March 25, 2005, 10:34:10 AM
Quote
I loved the book Vanity Fair, for example, was because Becky Sharp was such a hateful individual.


This is quite off topic, but you actually LIKED it? I thought it was the most boring book I've ever read.  :P
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: TampaBay on April 29, 2005, 05:05:29 AM
Quote
the thurn and taxis family never ruled.  The were raised to princes for their communication/mailing services to the Austriam emperor.   They profited from their business and were very rich.  



They still are very very rich!!!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on April 29, 2005, 06:33:49 AM
Quote

Sophie was indeed sent to a private mental asylum after her affair with Dr. Glaser 1887.
They had eloped to Meran, were however caught and separated, and when Sophie was found out to be still exchanging letters with him, she was sent to the private asylum to be cured from her "aberration".



Did she ever meet Dr. Glaser again? Or was she truly 'cured' of her 'aberration'?  (Why is it that the women who had affairs were sent to asylums & the men were allowed to just get on with it!  :-/ )
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: James_Davidov on April 30, 2005, 11:00:21 PM
I saw a really good movie about Edgar and Sophie.  Im guessing it was in German, and it was recently new, excellent scenery!  

Anyway, they depicted Sophie as having a horrible marriage, and also being unable to have children, her lady in waiting, Nadien (or something) actually giving birth to the Dukes son and daughters.  In the end of the movie Edgar and Sophie do meet at the Charity Bazare (which was supposedly a movie screening), it being made out to be a coincident, she being there for charity, he being there because he was a photographer and thus had a proffessional interest in the 'still pictures', i think they might both die in the fire...

It was the first time I really had 'learnt' anything about Sisi's sisters, fiction or not, it was a great movie.

James
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on May 02, 2005, 12:41:28 PM
Quote

Did she ever meet Dr. Glaser again? Or was she truly 'cured' of her 'aberration'?  


I don't think they met up again after this but I'm not sure. Perhaps Agneschen will know more about it.

Quote

 (Why is it that the women who had affairs were sent to asylums & the men were allowed to just get on with it!  :-/ )


Indeed! The usual double standard  >:( >:(

Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on May 02, 2005, 12:45:39 PM
Quote
I saw a really good movie about Edgar and Sophie.  Im guessing it was in German, and it was recently new, excellent scenery!  

Anyway, they depicted Sophie as having a horrible marriage, and also being unable to have children, her lady in waiting, Nadien (or something) actually giving birth to the Dukes son and daughters.  In the end of the movie Edgar and Sophie do meet at the Charity Bazare (which was supposedly a movie screening), it being made out to be a coincident, she being there for charity, he being there because he was a photographer and thus had a proffessional interest in the 'still pictures', i think they might both die in the fire...

It was the first time I really had 'learnt' anything about Sisi's sisters, fiction or not, it was a great movie.

James


Do you mean this dreadful production Sophie-Sisi's Little Sister made for Sat 1 TV channel?
I thought it was total crap. Mostly fiction, and the performances were simply atrocious. But, well, tastes differ.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 02, 2005, 01:43:23 PM
No one really knows ... I talked to the Reichsgraf of Kageneck, son of Sophie Charlotte's granddaughter Elisabeth von Bayern, and he didn't have much information about Dr. Glaser.

Greetings, Marie Charlotte
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: cimbrio on May 09, 2005, 08:18:29 AM
Going back for a mont to  Sophie's siters...
-I'm studying in Geneva and passed the other day opposit e the beau Rivage Hotel where Elisabeth breatehd her last. As you know she was stabbed by an anarchist on her way to catch a boat to cross the Léman Lake (which I corssed the same day). There is a statue dedicated to Sissi and nearby is another oen dedicated to a Duke of Brunswick (can't remember which). Here in Geneva live several royals, namely the Italian Royal Family (haven't seen them aroudn tho!)
-I had never heard that Marie's husband the King of Sicily commited suicide (I know, however, that his half brother Gaetano, married to the Princess Royal of Spain) did kill himself in LUzern (Switzerland).
I don't know about Helene and the other sister though I know Helene (Nene) was very unhappy in her marriage. Can anyone forward more about Sophie Charlotte and her horrible death?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Silja on May 09, 2005, 02:59:19 PM
Quote

I don't know about Helene and the other sister though I know Helene (Nene) was very unhappy in her marriage.


Nené was in fact very happy in her marriage.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Prince_Leo_Teles on May 09, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
hi cimbrio...

Actually Helene was THE ONLY ONE that was happy in her marriage. Even Sophie (that we couldnt say that she had a sad narriage) wasnt satisfied with her own husband.

Sad fate for the Wittelsbach sisters!!
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 10, 2005, 11:49:55 AM
King Franz II. of Neaples didn't commit suicide. He suffered from diabetis.

Sophie Charlotte, Duchess of Alencon, was very happy with her husband in the first years of her marriage. He has always been very good to her. For example he took her back after she had this sexual affair to Dr. Glaser from Graz and caused a scandal.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on May 10, 2005, 11:54:43 AM
Quote
Sophie Charlotte, Duchess of Alencon, was very happy with her husband in the first years of her marriage. He has always been very good to her. For example he took her back after she had this sexual affair to Dr. Glaser from Graz and caused a scandal.


But didn't he have her confined in an asylum?? That doesn't sound very kind, does it?  :-/.

(Sorry! I meant to add: Hi Marie Charlotte & welcome to the forum  :))
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Prince_Leo_Teles on May 10, 2005, 03:36:49 PM
well MarieCharlotte....

how can you say that she was VERY happy in her marriage if you just mention that her "noble" husband forgave her extra-marital liasion with a doctor?? i guess she wasnt THAT happy as you quote.

What i said is what i read in the book about the Wittelsbach and Ludwig II of Bavaria (which Sophie was engaged once and according to some, loved so much!)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on June 09, 2005, 08:06:18 AM
In 1842 Ludwig of Bavaria published a selection of his own poetry. Has anyone ever read any of these, please, & if so could you post them? Or suggest where I might find them please?  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Grand Duke on June 09, 2005, 05:32:51 PM
Quote
In 1842 Ludwig of Bavaria published a selection of his own poetry. Has anyone ever read any of these, please, & if so could you post them? Or suggest where I might find them please?  :)


"So we die without parting,
Forever together without end,
Without wakening,
Without Sorrow,
Nameless, surrounded by love,
Promise each other to only live for love."



I don't know if this was written by Ludwig of Bavaria. Please check it at http://www.koenig-ludwig.org/english/the_kings_friendships.php
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on June 09, 2005, 06:00:42 PM
Thank you, Grand Duke, I'll check it out!  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on July 06, 2005, 06:41:22 PM
I have just found this portrait by Winterhalter identified as "Princesse Amélie de Bavière":

(http://www.photobucket.com/albums/y143/agnessa/WinterhalterAmaliaBayern.jpg )

I have just had a look at Bavaria's family tree and am a bit puzzled. Could it be Princess Augusta Amalia, daughter of King Maximilian I who was married to Eugène of Beauharnais, duke of Leuchtenberg ? Can anyone help ?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on July 07, 2005, 06:42:59 AM
Wasn't Amelie, one of the twin daughters of Maximilian I Joseph & Wilhelmine of Hesse married to Johann of Saxony?

Agneschen, could you please rewrite the beautiful quotation about Ludwig II, which was once your signature, under the Ludwig II thread? I thought I had copied it down but I have lost it & it was beautiful.  :)  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on July 09, 2005, 02:34:15 PM
Does anybody know in the end the identity of this Princess for sure?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: crazy_wing on July 11, 2005, 05:56:41 AM
Yes, bluetoria was right.  she is Amalie Auguste of Bavaria who married King Johann of Saxony.  She was the twin sister of Elisabeth (elise) who married King Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: rskkiya on July 12, 2005, 01:57:38 PM
Could anyone suggest a good text on the history of the Wittelbachs - not on a particular member - but an introduction to the family so to speak?

rs
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on July 13, 2005, 02:13:55 PM
Thanks everyone !

Here is the quotation you asked for bluetoria (Empress Elisabeth probably said it in German but I only have the French translation) :

"Sortez le roi de la chapelle funèbre. Il n'est pas mort, il fait semblant de l'être pour demeurer en paix et n'être plus tourmenté par personne".
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on July 19, 2005, 06:57:50 AM
Could you teel us what is the translation!Don't undrestand French  :'(
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on July 19, 2005, 07:23:31 AM
Sorry Marc, here is the translation :
"Take the King out of the funeral chapel. He is not dead but only pretends to be to remain in peace and not be tormented by anyone anymore".
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Chris_H on July 29, 2005, 07:46:58 AM
I was pretty interested reading all the comments about the legendary Wittelsbachs.  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 30, 2005, 09:01:44 AM
Franz Xaver Winterhalter lived 1805-1873 and Princess Amalie of Bavaria 1801-1877.

Winterhalter started painting 1828 in Karlsruhe and Leopold of Baden appointed him "Hofmaler".

Princess Amalie married Johann of Saxony in 1822. So if Amalie was the young lady on the portrait, Winterhalter must have painted it before 1822. But in 1822 Winterhalter was only 17 years old.
Result: This picture can't show Amalie.

BTW, the famous painter Joseph Karl Stieler was the one who created almost all portraits of the Bavarian Royal family.
AND: I have seen a lot of portraits of the Bavarian Princesses and I can't see any similarity.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Chris_H on July 31, 2005, 11:44:18 AM
Once again I was rereading all the comments written here, I really, really, feel so bad for Otto :'(  I am glad that he was duly honored with a state funeral
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: crazy_wing on July 31, 2005, 10:05:38 PM
That portrait looks like it was painted in the 30s.  So if this is Amelie, then she would be in her 30s as well.  Could this be possible?  

You have good observation and your explanation looks right.  The RMN usually doesn't make that many mistakes so it is taken that she is Amelie, the one who married Johann.  Do you have any idea who this might actually be?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Mischa on August 01, 2005, 01:42:16 AM
"In 1842 Ludwig of Bavaria published a selection of his own poetry. Has anyone ever read any of these, please, & if so could you post them? Or suggest where I might find them please?"

My father has a book with poems written by Ludwig I. It contains the worst poems I ever read. You don't miss anything if you can't find more of that.

M.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 03:43:32 AM
Hello Mischa!  :)  Thank you for that information - bad as they are, would it be possible please for you to quote any of them?  :)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Mischa on August 01, 2005, 04:08:43 AM
When I visit my parents again (probably 13.-15.08.)  I look the poems up for you and try to translate one in english

M.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: bluetoria on August 02, 2005, 03:06:31 AM
Thank you very much! I'll look forwardto reading it!  :D
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Svetabel on October 07, 2005, 08:04:30 AM
Queen Maria, mother of King Ludwig II, here in 1864, at a court ball.

Frankly,the portraits of Maria are more flattering than the photos of her  ::)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/queenmarie1864bavaria.jpg)

here with Prince Luitpold

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/queenmarie1864bavariaprince.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:06:27 AM
Well, she wasn´t young anymore! As a young woman, she was beautiful. Her father-in-law also had a portrait of her in his beauty-gallery.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:25:52 AM
Max I. Joseph, the first Bavarian king
(http://www.kulmbach.net/~MGF-Gymnasium/bilderdaten/_monarchien/bilder/max1joseph4.jpg)

Ludwig I.
(http://www.kulmbach.net/~MGF-Gymnasium/bilderdaten/_monarchien/bilder/ludwig1.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:34:48 AM
The 3rd king, Max II. Joseph
(http://www.roberge.de/bilder/koenigmaxII.jpg)

His son Ludwig II., the most famous of the Wittelsbach family ever besides Sisi
(http://hou.ph.tum.de/events/HOU2000/Media/Ludwig.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:40:08 AM
King Otto I.
(http://www.payer.de/religionskritik/karikaturK184.gif)

Prince Regent Luitpold
(http://www.info-regenten.de/regent/regent-d/pictures/bayern-luitpold.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:48:40 AM
Ludwig III., the last king
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs11/ludwig3bavaria1845-5.jpg)

Rupprecht Crown Prince of Bavaria
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/gifs/rupprechtbav.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2005, 08:55:18 AM
Albrecht Duke of Bavaria
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/linnea12/albrechtundmaria.jpg)

Franz Duke of Bavaria
(http://www.neuer-weg.com/images/ringpark/arcaden_230105_01.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: cimbrio on October 13, 2005, 11:23:42 AM
Although Otto WAS confined even before his brother's death, he still had to carry out several duties during the regency of his uncle. Infanta Eulalia of Spain visited Bavaria in the late 1880's, when Otto was already king. She states that the Dowager Queen Marie was a very sad character, always scared and nervous, terrified of her son's bizarre acts, like barking and scratching on doors during the night, which was when he seemed to "lose" his mind more. Eulalia seemed relieved to leave Hohenschwangau, where Otto and Marie were at the time, to join her sister María de la Paz in Munich,. A few days later their aunt (and Paz's mother-in-law) Amalia of Spain rushed down to Munich, saying she could not stand staying in Hohenschwangau overnight, hearing Otto barking. Eulalia also says that it was rumoured that Ludwig II wasn't mad, but the victim of a conspiracy to get him out of the way, and several members of the family gave him the benefit of the doubt. Certainly Eulalia found Otto much more calm and gentle than his brother, as if their amdness was of a different nature.

I persoanlly doubt that genetics was the reason for their instability, though it's odd that both should have turne dout mad. :'(
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on October 13, 2005, 04:13:56 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/MaxIBayern.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on October 13, 2005, 04:14:46 PM
King Maximilian I von Bayern
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on October 13, 2005, 04:15:12 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/LudwigIBayern.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marc on October 13, 2005, 04:15:55 PM
And King Ludwig I von Bayern!
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 13, 2005, 05:25:59 PM
Is that crown on the portrait still existing? What are the details of the jewel?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Lucien on October 14, 2005, 04:49:16 AM
The Regalia of the Royal House are at display in the Schatzkammer(Treasury) of the Residenz in Munich.
The Queens Crown:
http://www.schloesser.bayern.de/bilder/schloss/mu_schatzkammer1.jpg

for more info:
http://www.schloesserbayern.de/english/palace/objects

or Ursula's wonderfull site:
http://www.royal-magazin.de/german/bayern/
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: cimbrio on October 14, 2005, 05:17:36 AM
How rich is the Bavarian royal family, or the head of the family anyway? Did they lose many possessions after the November  Abdications in 1918? I've read Ludwig III was especially surprised, since he was popular and had tried to stay out of the war as much as possible, although his son did fight (in the Battle of Lorraine if I'm not mistaken...).
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 14, 2005, 07:16:03 AM
In comparision to other German royal families, the Bavarian are still very rich. The head of the family, Duke Franz of Bavaria lives in Schloss Nymphenburg in Munich. The Wittelsbach Family made a contract with the Bavarian state in the 1920s, the "Wittlesbacher Ausgleichsfond", which garants each member of the family a payment (this still runs today). Maybe Prince Luitpold, future head of the family, is the richest member of the family. He runs his own brawery in his castle Kaltenberg in Landsberg am Lech in Southern Bavaria. He also has founded the "Kaltenberger Ritterturnier", a festival about the Middle Agers with knights etc(http://www.ritterturnier.de).
After the revolution in 1918, the family lost of course the Residenz in Munich, but not much else. After 1945, they lost their possesions in Boehemia and Hungary. The family has still the right to abode in many castles such as Neuschwanstein, Linderhof, Berchtesgaden etc.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Lucien on October 14, 2005, 07:25:53 AM
Quote
How rich is the Bavarian royal family, or the head of the family anyway? Did they lose many possessions after the November  Abdications in 1918? I've read Ludwig III was especially surprised, since he was popular and had tried to stay out of the war as much as possible, although his son did fight (in the Battle of Lorraine if I'm not mistaken...).


Cimbrio,maybe you find the answers to a lot of questions about the House of Wittelsbach on this site,if I'm permitted to post,
http://groups.msn.com/PalaceWittelsbach/wittelsbachbusinessenterprises.msnw


Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: cimbrio on October 14, 2005, 08:22:49 AM
Thank you both Linnea and Lucien; I wanted to know: I've read that Sissi had a "grave accident" in Sassetôt (France) in September 1875. Could this refer to an alledged love affair she ahd there, or was there also a real ACCIDENT?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Linnea on October 14, 2005, 09:12:31 AM
There were many rumors about her accident in Sasserot (birth of a son), but these rumors are of course not true. Elisabeth really had a serious riding accident in Sasserot, but even this couldn´t hold her away from her beloved horses for long. But her daughter Marie Valerie had to swear to her to never get near a horse! ;)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on October 16, 2005, 07:41:13 AM
Ludwig (left) and brother Otto (right) as teenagers :

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/agnessa/ludwotto.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Agneschen on October 16, 2005, 07:59:40 AM
from left to right : Ludwig, Queen Marie, King Max, Otto :

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y143/agnessa/MaxMariefamily.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 16, 2005, 08:47:08 AM
Prince Luitpold in the picture above with Queen Maria has superb calf muscles, i wonder what exercises he did for them??  ;D

Unless it was just padding  ;D
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Svetabel on October 20, 2005, 03:02:05 AM
Quote
Prince Luitpold in the picture above with Queen Maria has superb calf muscles, i wonder what exercises he did for them??  ;D

Unless it was just padding  ;D


Hehe, may be he was a sportsman. Two more pics of him

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/luitpoldbabr.jpg)

in 1861
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/luitpoldbabr1861.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 20, 2005, 06:50:10 AM
lol, probably, although i remember hearing that some times they used padding also! If not they certainly are a good pair of calves  ;D

Great pics.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 21, 2005, 11:57:16 AM
What was the reaction to Lola Montes, not only by the Wittlesbachs, but also by the extended family across Europe and Great Britain? She must have caused a few fainting spells.  ;)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Lucien on November 20, 2005, 11:59:06 PM
Wittelsbach of our days.
The wedding of Prince Manuel of Bavaria to Princess Anna zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg,"Poldi's" son,last august:
http://www.royalpress.nl/20050806.html
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Duke_of_Lynnwood on December 08, 2005, 01:11:12 AM
I know this is the Hohenzollern section but I can't think of any where else to bring up german princes. I studied the Bavarians some years ago back to Bavarians of the Holy Roman Empire, but I forgot or really got confused with the Dukes in Bavaria and the royal family of Bavaria.

Didn't the Dukes in Bavaria line become extinct? Or really did it merge with the main Bavarian line because Elisabeth in Bavaria who married King Ludwig III?
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Duke_of_Lynnwood on December 08, 2005, 01:15:50 AM
I mean Marie Gabriele in Bavaria married Crown Prince Rupprecht of Bavaria. Elisabeth in Bavaria married King Albert I of Belgians. ::)my bad
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Bernardino on December 08, 2005, 05:01:22 AM
Hello  :)

Actually the line of the Duke in Bavaria bacame extint in 1973 with the death of Duke Luitpold. His first cousin and head of the ducal line prior to him, Duke Ludwig Wilhelm (d. 1968 ), son of Duke Carl Theodor and of his 2nd wife Dss Maria José, née Infanta of Portugal, adopted in 1965 Pr Max Emanuel of Bavaria (b. 1937), younger son of Duke Albrecht of Bavaria, whom was Duke Ludwig Wilhelm's nephew (son of Maria Gabriela and Crown Prince Rupprecht).

After the adoption Max Emanuel became Duke in Bavaria, along with his princely title. Two years later he married Gfn Elisabeth Douglas. As they have only (!) 5 daughters, I presume the Ducal title will eventually die out.


In 1973 at the death of the last male member of the Dukes in Bavaria he became the representant of this historic title.

He might adopt another member of the family though...and thus continue this heritage...

Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2005, 09:56:21 AM
Yes...another adoption.  ::)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Marlene on December 08, 2005, 10:09:19 AM
Quote
Hello  :)

Actually the line of the Duke in Bavaria bacame extint in 1973 with the death of Duke Luitpold. His first cousin and head of the ducal line prior to him, Duke Ludwig Wilhelm (d. 1968 ), son of Duke Carl Theodor and of his 2nd wife Dss Maria José, née Infanta of Portugal, adopted in 1965 Pr Max Emanuel of Bavaria (b. 1937), younger son of Duke Albrecht of Bavaria, whom was Duke Ludwig Wilhelm's nephew (son of Maria Gabriela and Crown Prince Rupprecht).

After the adoption Max Emanuel became Duke in Bavaria, along with his princely title. Two years later he married Gfn Elisabeth Douglas. As they have only (!) 5 daughters, I presume the Ducal title will eventually die out.


In 1973 at the death of the last male member of the Dukes in Bavaria he became the representant of this historic title.

He might adopt another member of the family though...and thus continue this heritage...




Several points here.  Legally, titles do not exist in Germany.  The late Duke in Bavaria adopted Max Emanuel to pass on a surname (which was once a title) and for inheritance purposes.  I would be surprised if ME does not adopt another male Bavarian in order to keep the name going.  He has a fair number of male relatives to adopt - a good choice might be be Prince Wolfgang of Bavaria (second son of Rasso) who is married with sons - and Wolfgang's younger brother also has several sons (and then there would be a nice new "line of succession" for the ducal "title
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: allanraymond on December 08, 2005, 07:11:35 PM
Quote
I know this is the Hohenzollern section but I can't think of any where else to bring up german princes. I studied the Bavarians some years ago back to Bavarians of the Holy Roman Empire, but I forgot or really got confused with the Dukes in Bavaria and the royal family of Bavaria.

Didn't the Dukes in Bavaria line become extinct? Or really did it merge with the main Bavarian line because Elisabeth in Bavaria who married King Ludwig III?


My Web Page at: http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Bavarian_Royal_Family.htm may possibly enable you to entangle the Dukes in Bavaria line from the "Royal" of Bavaria line. On the other hand perhaps it wont be of any help?

Allan Raymond  
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Bernardino on December 11, 2005, 12:52:16 PM
Hello...

One question: When Duke Franz made dynastic all the marriages in his family (1999) did he put restrictions for future marriages or each member may now marry without seeking any kind of aprooval?


It was good he did so...now the next generations of Heads of the House will also descendend from Kronprinz Rupprecht, for instance...


Thank you in advance...
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Duke_of_Lynnwood on December 11, 2005, 11:57:17 PM
Thanks for making this post active!! ;D Thanks for your input. There seems to be a lot of adoptions. that's wierd. I guess they have to to keep the line alive.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Bernardino on December 12, 2005, 04:45:33 AM

I think it's because, though at first a minor branch of the Wittelsbach, the Dukes in Bavaria gained much consideration after their excellent marriages among Royal Houses...And there is a will of not forgetting such heritage...much as like the Austria-Este...
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Dann on November 07, 2007, 08:29:21 AM
It is as much financial as it is prestige. There are two substantial properties, Schloss Tegernsee and Wildbad Kreuth involved plus a number of small business properties scattered around southern bavaria. In addition to the properties themselves there are two lbusiness holdings that produce substantial income. The Ducal Bavarian Brewinghouse is a medium sized brewery and the former spa complex at Kreuth is leased to the Christian Socialist Union (the bavarian equivalent to our Republican Party) which operates it as a party meeting and seminar center.
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: José on November 07, 2007, 11:00:05 AM
Quote
Hello  :)

Actually the line of the Duke in Bavaria bacame extint in 1973 with the death of Duke Luitpold. His first cousin and head of the ducal line prior to him, Duke Ludwig Wilhelm (d. 1968 ), son of Duke Carl Theodor and of his 2nd wife Dss Maria José, née Infanta of Portugal, adopted in 1965 Pr Max Emanuel of Bavaria (b. 1937), younger son of Duke Albrecht of Bavaria, whom was Duke Ludwig Wilhelm's nephew (son of Maria Gabriela and Crown Prince Rupprecht).

After the adoption Max Emanuel became Duke in Bavaria, along with his princely title. Two years later he married Gfn Elisabeth Douglas. As they have only (!) 5 daughters, I presume the Ducal title will eventually die out.


In 1973 at the death of the last male member of the Dukes in Bavaria he became the representant of this historic title.

He might adopt another member of the family though...and thus continue this heritage...



Several points here.  Legally, titles do not exist in Germany.  The late Duke in Bavaria adopted Max Emanuel to pass on a surname (which was once a title) and for inheritance purposes.  I would be surprised if ME does not adopt another male Bavarian in order to keep the name going.  He has a fair number of male relatives to adopt - a good choice might be be Prince Wolfgang of Bavaria (second son of Rasso) who is married with sons - and Wolfgang's younger brother also has several sons (and then there would be a nice new "line of succession" for the ducal "title


From what we've seen, in Germany anyone can adopt anyone and thus pass him the title, or, at least the surname:
eg Zsa Zsa Gabor's Prince of Anhalt, the last Schwarzburg Furst, etc...

So, from the sake of the discussion, I guess M-E can adopt anyone, such as one of his grandsons and not necessarily adopt Wolfgang or any other Wittelsbach. Is this correct ?
It would be nice for Wolfgang as Pr.Franz's demorganizations deprived him from the title as heir apparent in favour of his cousin Luitpold (who had contracted a morganatic marriage under the ancient laws).

Would any adoption from M-E (f.i. of a grandson)  have to be approved by Franz as head of the house ?
Are the 1st and 2nd lines of the Wittelsbachs ruled by the same laws ?

Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2007, 08:44:11 PM
This is getting confusing... ???
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 01, 2010, 07:11:03 PM
The common ancestor of the Kings/Dukes of Bavaria and Dukes in Bavaria was a certain Count Christian 1 of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler (1598-1654).
Count Christian II (1637-1717) of Birkenfeld-Bischweiler (a son of Christian 1 above) is a direct ancestor of the Kings/Dukes of Bavaria.
Johann Karl  (1638-1704) of Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen  (another son of Christian 1 above) is a direct ancestor of the Dukes in Bavaria.
Christian II’s great grandson Count Maximilian of Birkenfeld-Zweibruken  (1756-1825) later Duke of Zweibruken became the first King of Bavaria in 1805 (as Maximilan I).
Johann Karl’s grandson Duke Wilhelm of Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen (1752 - 1837) married Countess Marie Anne of Birkenfeld-Zweibruken (1753 - 1824) who was a sister of King Maximilian I of Bavaria  
Maximilian I conferred the title Duke in Bavaria on his brother-in-law Wilhelm.

I am fascinating by the line of the Counts Palatine of Birkenfeld-Gelnhausen, because Gelnhausen seems like such an idyllic place on the edge of the Spessart in the little-known Kinzig Valley. I was going to say off the beaten path, but remembered that it was on the old Via Regia from Mainz to Leipzig (ref.: nearby Steinau an der Straße) and I have myself passed it on the autobahn, but it's all in all not a well-known residence of royalty. As I understand it the Imperial City of Gelnhausen had been mortgaged by the Emperors in the Middle Ages and the exact territorial jurisdiction was disputed by the two eventual mortgagees the Counts of Hanau and their heirs the Landgraves of Hesse-Kassel, and the Electors Palatine.

How much actual land in and around Gelnhausen did this leave the Gelnhausen Wittelsbachs? And since I see that a few of them (including Wilhelm, Duke in Bavaria) were born there, exactly where in Gelnhausen did they reside? The only possible place I can see is the old medieval imperial Pfalz (palace). If so, how appropriate, since they were Pfalzgrafen, Counts Palatine!

Gelnhausen (nowadays in Hesse - the Hesse-Kassels won the territorial fight):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Gelnhausen_Stadtansicht.jpg/750px-Gelnhausen_Stadtansicht.jpg)
Title: Re: House of Wittelsbach
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 01:26:13 PM
Lovely photo ! Thanks.