Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: ashanti01 on September 18, 2004, 07:00:01 PM

Title: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 18, 2004, 07:00:01 PM
I couldn't find this topic anywhere else, so here it goes.

I have been trying to find information on Alexander II and his mistress Catherine who later became his wife and given the name Princess Dolgorukaya. I have found bits and pieces of information on them which have left me wondering if I can call their "romance" a love story or national shame?

Before you jump on me, here me out.

What makes thier tale upsetting to me was how he placed his mistress under the same roof as his dying wife.

I understand men will have thier lovers here and there but you don't move them into your home.

I wish I could learn more about them, maybe I would understand better, but all I could find on them was a movie that was made in Russian with no subtitles...

Does anyone else have a say on Alexander II's love affair with the young Catherine?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 07:10:50 PM
It has been discussed somewhere else here--can't remember the exact thread.  ??? Anyway, it seems to be a combo of the 2. They were definitely in love, and I think MA had accepted the loss of her husband's love (if not affection) long before. However, it is extremely hard to accept moving your mistress & illegitimate children into the home you share with your wife. Granted the 'home' is a huge palace, but still. I think what can be said in AII's defense is he was terrified that something may happen to 'the wife of his heart' and their children--or himself going to visit them. And judging by what happened to him not long after their marriage, the fear was well-founded.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 18, 2004, 07:23:24 PM
That is true, I understand his love for "his wife before the eyes of God" but he must have understood what he was doing was not right.

I wonder how Catherine felt about all of this because she had to been the most hated girl in the imperial family for a long time.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 07:33:37 PM
I think 'Katya' was deeply aware of it. I can't help but think it would've been VERY uncomfortable to come face-to-face w/her 'step-children'. She was very deeply resented, esp on the part of AIII who was devoted to his mother. He was fairly kind to her (considering) in the aftermath of his father's death--continuing her allowance, caring for her financially, as his father would've wished. I think Alexei was the friendliest. I can't remember where I read it, but there was a letter between him and Katya where he sends friendly greetings--much after his father's death.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 18, 2004, 07:41:10 PM
Alexander III did try to be nice to her after his fathers death, but I think at some point he started to push her away as it was very known Empress Marie did not like her. I think she felt resentful of her because she believed Catherine has stolen Alexander's love from his wife.
If you have read Little Mother of Russia, it states Marie felt very attached to her husbands mother who protected and cared for her when she first arrived to Russia.

How old was she when the affair started? I heard she was sixteen and Alexander II was at least in his forties?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 08:08:18 PM
Some of the letters detailing their relationship:
Alexander II to Louisa Dolgorukova, sister-in-law of Catherine. His liason with Katia was only about a year old, and gossip about it had spread to Petersburg society, leading Alexander to write this letter to Louisa. Katia Dolgorukova herself seems to have been beautiful but not very bright. She was probably devoted to the Tsar, but not smart enough to realize that her relatives and "friends" embroiled her in all sorts of plots and plans.
November 24 [Dec. 6], 1867
You will understand my despair at having been capable of doing something unpleasant to her, and that just on the day before her name's day. I who have only one single thought in my head, and that is to see her content and happy. May God preserve her and grant her all the happiness of which she is so worthy, and in which, as I know, you yourself are so sincerely
interested.

Sebastopol, September 12 [24], 1873
…I hope to be with you before 5 o'clock. Understand my impatience and where I am drawn to. I am sending you the strawberries which I forgot just now and am utilizing the occasion to announce that I have managed to make arrangements so as to be able to dine with you, who are my idol, my treasure, my life. Be it thus and nothing else.-- Good-bye until 3 o'clock [in the afternoon]. Yours forever

St. Petersburg, December 31, 1875 [Jan. 12, 1876]at three quarters past 1 in the afternoon
Before going to see my sister [Marie] who thank God is slightly better, I only want to tell you that your good letter filled me with sunshine and that I keep ceaselessly thanking God for the happiness He has
accorded me in you, my adored Angel, my idol, my treasure, my life. May he continue to watch over us,
and not forsake us in the future.

At three-quarters past 10 in the evening.
You must have felt my prayers during the Te Deum this evening and you know what they contained. I thanked God from the very depth of my soul for all the happiness He granted us during this year that is about to end, and which I am sad to leave behind. May the one which is about to begin be as lucky for us. May God preserve you and our two little Angels, who are our joy, and may He bless your delivery and give you back all the happiness you have never ceased giving me for nearly ten years. Oh, how happy I was a short while ago when I was with you and our dear children, whose appetites and dispositions were both brilliant. But I was sad not to be able to bring them back and to be present at their going to bed. Dear Pupussia was as distressed as I was by it, and you saw how happy he was to look at the pictures spread out on my knees, which dear Oly wanted to look at also. Their tenderness to us is truly touching, and one cannot but adore them, as well as their dear little Mama, in whom all is concentrated for me. Now I will finish all I have to do, so as to be able to go to bed as soon as we have exchanged our New Year greetings.

At midnight.
Just another word before I do go to bed. I am happy that we were able to exchange our New Year greetings as we like to do, and I hope it brings us luck. I embrace you, my Angel, from all my soul.

Jan. 1 [13], 1876.
I start a new day by congratulating you and wishing you all possible happiness, which I wish I could give you, and which is our dream. My heart overflows with love and tenderness for you, my adored Angel, and I can only think of the moment when I will be with you and our dear children again-- I must get back to my work, and after Divine Service I shall go to make my visits. Luckily it is not so cold.-- I embrace you from all my soul and am happy that you are mine, and I
Yours forever,
May God not forsake us, and bless us!

St. Petersburg, December 12 [24], 1876 at noon
Extremely worried not to have received your letters, which is my daily bread, and because you let R. [General Ryleev] know that you had fallen sick. In the name of Heaven, give me news of your health so that I should know what has happened to you, and if I can still hope to see you in our nest [the Galernaya apartment] or whether I can go to your place at about 4 o'clock. Please take pity on me, and do not forget that all my life is in you.


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 08:11:53 PM
December 9 [21], [1878] at three-quarters past 11 in the evening [St. Petersburg]
The good moments we spent together have left me the sweetest impression. The dear children's humor was particularly sparkling, and they were enchanted to find their old toys again. You saw how dear Pupussia suddenly came to me and kissed me, with both his arms around my neck, and Oly of course had to imitate  him. Their tenderness is my joy. May God keep them safely for us, as well as dear baby [Katia Jr.], and may  He not forsake us in the future.-- I confess that I have some misgivings about the fatigues of tomorrow, and
above all the Archbishop's Mass which will follow the christening. I love you, my dear Angel, and kiss you
tenderly. I hope that at last you will spend a better night.

December 10 [22], [1878] at three-quarters past 9 in the morning
Good morning, dear Angel of my soul, I slept well and everything in me overflows with love and  tenderness for you. Today it is exactly a year since my return from the war, the result of which was the birth of our dear baby, exactly 9 months less a day, afterwards. Oh, oh, oh-- did you see? May God keep her for us, as well as our two dear eldest, and continue to watch over us. I have to get back to my work. I embrace you tenderly and am happy that you are mine, and I
Yours forever

January 8 [20], 1879 at three-quarters past 11 in the evening
I am still all saturated with our delicious bingerles of a little while ago. It was so good I wanted to cry out,  and I slept so particularly well afterwards. The children's appetites were very good and their humor sparkling as always, but dear Pupussia [their son George] was afraid I would make fun of his Hussar costume with the short pants. It's priceless how sensitive he is, and along with that the nice thing about the child is that he is real. May God develop in him all his good qualities and keep him for us, as well as his sisters, and may He not forsake us in the future. I love you, dear Angel, and kiss you tenderly.

January 9 [21], [1879]
at 10 in the morning
Good morning, dear Angel of my soul, I slept very well and everything in me overflows with love and tenderness for you…. It is time to go to work. I embrace you tenderly, and am happy that you are mine, and I
Yours forever

January 10 [22], [1879]at 10 in the morning
Good morning, dear Angel of my soul, I slept well. General Ryleev told me the children had slept calmly. God grant they feel better. The cold is decreasing, and there is no wind at present. It is time to get to work. I embrace you and am happy that you are mine, and I
Yours forever
May God not forsake us, and bestow His Blessings on us!

Alexander II's mistress, Catherine (Katia)Dolgorukova, to Alexander. It is worth noting that far more of his letters to her survive than hers to him, and his tend to be longer.
May 7 [19], [1880] at 11 o'clock in the morning
Good morning, dear angel, I love you and everything in me is overflowing terribly. I slept well, and am only waiting for the moment of seeing you again. May God bless you and come to our aid. I love you. Yours forever

Catherine remained devoted to AII spending most of her time taking care of him and (unusually among imperial mistresses)not seeking power for herself or her family. Catherine was ecstatic about their marriage, and here are reproduced three letters she wrote to the Tsar--the first two on July 5th, 1880, the day before the wedding, and the third on the 6th, their wedding day.
[1st letter]
... Thank you again for all you have done for me during these 14 years of happiness. I want to express my gratitude to you in the last letter you will receive from me before we become husband and wife before God and all men...
[2nd letter]
You must understand what will take place in me at the moment of being pronounced your wife, and what a joy it is to become the wife of the man you have madly loved for 14 years, and this gives us our only happiness on this earth!... I love you, I am madly in love with you.
[3rd letter]
At last the long-awaited day is here, and I hope that in a few hours God will bestow His blessings on us and will preserve us. Thank you once again for everything, and do not forget that nobody in this world is as
beloved as you are. Oh, how happy I will be in a few hours, you will become my protector in the eyes of the law, and nobody will be able to separate us, and we shall be one forever, as we have been for 14 years. I love you. Yours forever. I am waiting for you to come and be kissed...

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 08:12:18 PM
Alexander II to his son, the future Alexander III, detailing the provisions he wished to be made Katia.
Dearest Sasha,
In case of my death I confide to you my wife and children of mine [by Katia]... My wife received no inheritance whatsoever and therefore, all that she owns now is her own, with her relatives having no rights or claims to it in any shape or form. For security's sake she has willed everything to me...My wife's capital, until our marriage will be officially proclaimed, is in my name... All objects, which she gave me, must after my death be returned to her. I wish that in this case [of my death] the living quarters in the Winter Palace should be reserved for her and her children... these are my last wishes, which, I am certain,  will be fulfilled by you conscientiously. God bless you for all your care! Don't forget and pray for the soul of your sincere and tenderly loving Papa.
Alexander

Alexander II to his sister, Queen Olga of Wurttemberg on his decision to marry his mistress Katia Dolgorukova soon after the death of his first wife.
October 20 [November 1, new-style] 1880.
... I would never have married [Katia Dolgorukova] before a year of mourning if not for the dangerous time we live in and for the hazardous attempts I expose myself to daily which can actually and suddenly end my life. Therefore, I am anxious as soon as possible to secure the future  of the object, which lived for me during the past fourteen years as well  as for three of our children-- happiness. Despite her youthfulness,  Kniazhna Ekaterina Dolgorukova preferred to refuse all the pleasures and gaieties of society which means so much to a young woman of her age in order to devote her entire life to love and care for me. Therefore, she has a full right for my love, esteem, and my thankfulness. She literally saw no one except her only sister, and she never mixed herself in anything, despite many temptations. People had even shamelessly used her name without her even knowing it or getting her permission. She only lives for me and spent all her time in educating her own children. I can assure our family [meaning the imperial family] that Ekaterina [Katia] understands perfectly her position as a morganatic spouse and will never present demands contrary to my wishes as head of the family and a  monarch. I only wish that the other members of [the imperial] family will remember it and not force me to remind them about it.

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 08:14:09 PM
Quote
Alexander III did try to be nice to her after his fathers death, but I think at some point he started to push her away as it was very known Empress Marie did not like her. I think she felt resentful of her because she believed Catherine has stolen Alexander's love from his wife.
If you have read Little Mother of Russia, it states Marie felt very attached to her husbands mother who protected and cared for her when she first arrived to Russia.

How old was she when the affair started? I heard she was sixteen and Alexander II was at least in his forties?


Yes, she was 16, he 47. I think that he had been friends with her parents and when they were killed, assumed guardianship of her and her siblings. He sent Katya and her sisters to the prestigious Smolny Institute for their learning. She grew into a beauty and the Tsar became infatuated with her. I don't know if the physical relationship started at 16 or not--I thought I remember her putting off AII because of marital/age/situation concerns.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: masha on September 18, 2004, 09:37:47 PM
It seems to me that Alexander II lived a rather "fast" life from beginning to end during his adult life - yes/no? I say this from all that has been written about court life before & during his reign - indeed, court life altogether through the ages of the Romanov era seemed to rather "fast & loose".

Examples are given in Hessian Tapestry of the behaviour of just about all members - male & female - in the immediate imperial family -Alexander II was tsarevitch when his brother-in-law (Louis? of Hesse) & Maria Feodorovna's younger brother was reprimanded over & over again for his scandalous behaviour, involving many young women who became pregnant and had to be married off in a hurry. Anyhow, as it is clearly suggested in this particular book, Alexander II had several dalliances himself in his early married life.

So, I raise the question again - & please forgive me for repeatedly asking, but I'm still not clear on the true moral order of court life under any of the tsars. I think according to our middle-class standards it was pretty immoral, where as for the aristocracy it was expected that a husband & even a wife would have at least one if not a handful of lovers. Am I wrong in thinking this??

Also, what is perhaps intriguing, if not touching with Alexander II is that given the numerous women he had during his lifetime, he sought out one person to end his days with as man & wife (who in the end was Ekaterina - I believe he pursued her sister first & then turned on the younger after the elder rebuffed him). Now - was this because he was tired of seeing a string of women one after the other, or was it because he was lonely due to the deterioration of his marital relations with his wife Marie? And if the latter, what was the reason for the breakdown in their marriage?????

Masha
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Olga on September 18, 2004, 11:51:55 PM
Alexander II Nikolaevich Romanov + Yekaterina Mikhailovna Dolgorukaya, Princess Yurievskaya

Married 18 Jul 1880, Tsarskoe Selo

Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1872 - 1913
Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1874 - 1925
Boris Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1876 - 1876
Yekaterina Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1878 - 1959
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on September 19, 2004, 02:27:03 AM
Quote
It seems to me that Alexander II lived a rather "fast" life from beginning to end during his adult life - yes/no? I say this from all that has been written about court life before & during his reign - indeed, court life altogether through the ages of the Romanov era seemed to rather "fast & loose".

Examples are given in Hessian Tapestry of the behaviour of just about all members - male & female - in the immediate imperial family -Alexander II was tsarevitch when his brother-in-law (Louis? of Hesse) & Maria Feodorovna's younger brother was reprimanded over & over again for his scandalous behaviour, involving many young women who became pregnant and had to be married off in a hurry. Anyhow, as it is clearly suggested in this particular book, Alexander II had several dalliances himself in his early married life.

So, I raise the question again - & please forgive me for repeatedly asking, but I'm still not clear on the true moral order of court life under any of the tsars. I think according to our middle-class standards it was pretty immoral, where as for the aristocracy it was expected that a husband & even a wife would have at least one if not a handful of lovers. Am I wrong in thinking this??

Also, what is perhaps intriguing, if not touching with Alexander II is that given the numerous women he had during his lifetime, he sought out one person to end his days with as man & wife (who in the end was Ekaterina - I believe he pursued her sister first & then turned on the younger after the elder rebuffed him). Now - was this because he was tired of seeing a string of women one after the other, or was it because he was lonely due to the deterioration of his marital relations with his wife Marie? And if the latter, what was the reason for the breakdown in their marriage?????

Masha


I don't know, I could be mistaken, but I thought AII was faithful for a good while into his marriage. I had never heard of early dalliances. He had picked MA and married her for love, despite the rumors around her purported parentage. It seemed that the marriage only started to break down when she was absent so long due to ill health and the fact that she (like Alix) was terribly ill-at-ease at Court. They had children even late into their marriage (not necessarily indicative of faithfulness but shoes they were still intimate long past the need for heirs and with a big gap between the older and 2-3 youngest children).
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: koloagirl on September 19, 2004, 06:46:37 PM
Hello all -
I cannot find a picture of Princess Dolgorukaya in any of the books I have on the Romanovs (and so many of you seem to have a library-full!).  

Would anybody on the board that might have a picture of this well-loved mistress/wife of Alexander II please post it?  I'd appreciate it very much.

Thank you so much!
Janet R.
::)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 19, 2004, 07:29:19 PM
I have believe I once did see a picture of Catherine, but I can't remember where...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on September 20, 2004, 12:44:08 AM
Quote
Hello all -
I cannot find a picture of Princess Dolgorukaya in any of the books I have on the Romanovs  ::)


Hi Janet,

Here are a few references which contain photographs of Katya:

1. Katya - Wife before God by Alexandre Tarsaidze 1970 (the most obvious one!). There are a number of photographs of her in her youth, as a Smolyanka, with her family and as an elderly lady in exile. Finally there are images of her grave in Nice.

2. Nikolai II by A. Bokhanov, 1992 (In Russian) pp 74 - 5. There is a 2 page article about her, which contains two photographs of her, one with Alexander II and their children, and the second one is of Katya holding a sleeping dog. Both were taken in 1868.

3.  Nikolai II by A. Bokhanov, 2000 (In Russian) pp 16 - 7. There are two images (one photo + drawing) which show her two years earlier, in 1866, around the time when their romance commenced.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Martyn on September 20, 2004, 01:05:09 PM
I'm pretty sure that Charlote Zeepvat in "The Camera and the Tsars" states that Ekaterina resisted becoming his mistress for a year after she left the Smolny.  I believe that the children were orphaned and penniless due to the extravagance of their father and enjoyed the patronage of the Tsar as a result of the regard that he had for their late father.
As Princess Yurievsky, she was renowned for her poise and elegance, and for an air of aristocratic hauteur that seems to have been natural as opposed to studied.
It is said that had Alexander not met such an untimely end, that, in spite of her being his morganatic wife, he may well have tried to make her his official consort.
It is also said that the Yurievsky's rooms were above those of the Empress Maria Alexandrovna, and that she was accustomed to hearing the footsteps of the children as they played on the floor above.  By the time of her death I think that she was reconciled to the idea of her husband's second family, and I think had met the children?
The sad fact in all of this is that when the Empress finally expired in 1880, after many years of ill-health, she was entirely alone.................
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Alexa on September 20, 2004, 02:32:26 PM
Quote
Alexander II Nikolaevich Romanov + Yekaterina Mikhailovna Dolgorukaya, Princess Yurievskaya

Married 18 Jul 1880, Tsarskoe Selo

Georgi Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1872 - 1913
Olga Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1874 - 1925
Boris Alexandrovich, Prince Yurievsky 1876 - 1876
Yekaterina Alexandrovna, Princess Yurievskaya 1878 - 1959


Does anyone have any pictures of the children?  I don't think I've ever seen any.

Thanks!
Alexa
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Angie_H on September 20, 2004, 04:49:19 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/AlexanderIICatherineDolgorukyandtheirchildren.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Alexa on September 20, 2004, 04:53:49 PM
Thanks Angie_H.

Alexa
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Angie_H on September 20, 2004, 05:07:05 PM
Welcome  :D
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 20, 2004, 05:57:37 PM
My thanks to everyone... now I need to find that movie
Katia which was made in 1959...does anyone know where I can find this movie or the book "Katia Wife before God" by Alexandre Tarsaidze???
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 20, 2004, 06:10:38 PM
THANK YOU JM!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on September 20, 2004, 11:51:41 PM
Quote
where I can find this movie


I have a 2-DVD set called L'ubov Imperatora, which I purchased through e-bay. Although it is a Russian language compilation (w/o subtitles) it is a recent dramatization (1980's) of the affair Katya had with Alexander II, filmed on site in SPb where the actual events took place. The opening scene is when Katya, now no longer a student, encounters the Emperor in Letnyi Sad.

I have a vague recollection that the US movie started with Katya still a student in the Smolni Institute, where she is shown in uniform meeting the Emperor while he is on a courtesy visit.

ashanti01,

Tarsaidze's book is a supurb read. Many fascinating end-notes appear at the bottom of most pages. Enjoy your copy when you acquire it! :D  
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Johnny on September 21, 2004, 03:48:35 PM
She was lovely.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: AGRBear on September 21, 2004, 04:13:51 PM
Quote
...[in part] ...
Alexander II to his son, the future Alexander III, detailing the provisions he wished to be made Katia.
Dearest Sasha,
In case of my death I confide to you my wife and children of mine [by Katia]... My wife received no inheritance whatsoever and therefore, all that she owns now is her own....

Alexander II to his sister, Queen Olga of Wurttemberg on his decision to marry his mistress Katia Dolgorukova soon after the death of his first wife.
October 20 [November 1, new-style] 1880.
... I would never have married [Katia Dolgorukova] before a year of mourning if not for the dangerous time we live in and for the hazardous attempts I expose myself to daily which can actually and suddenly end my life. Therefore....



I was wondering if all the attempted assassinations on the life of Alexander II was one of the reasons he drew Katia closer to him and the reason he married Katia before the year of mourning was over.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on September 21, 2004, 10:05:10 PM
Hi AGRBear,

Yes it was THE reason. Alexander II, before his secret marriage to Katya, had already avoided numerous attempts on his life. He decided to formalize his relationship with Katya and their children, not knowing whether he would live to survive another day.

Alexander's intentions were expressed in a letter which he wrote to his sister Olga (Queen of Wurtemburg).  
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 21, 2004, 10:30:44 PM
Everything does seem to show Alexander knew he would not live very long, and wanted to marry Katia before it was too late...one can understand that...but still to put your mistress and your children by her under the same roof as your dying wife.... :-/
Thats even shocking for todays society :o
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on September 22, 2004, 12:04:09 AM
Yes I agree the proximity of both families was way too close. It certainly enabled Alexander to move easily  'unobserved' away from the eyes of the general public and more importantly out of harms way from potential terrorists.

Although his first wife, Maria Alexandrovna was resigned to the affair, one can only feel profound sympathy towards her plight. None of us would like to be placed in a similar position.

Too much was happening in his personal life, and it seems he wanted to have it all while he could.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: koloagirl on September 22, 2004, 12:27:14 AM
 :)
A belated many thanks to all of you who responded to
my request for a picture of Princess Dolgorukaya...you
are great!!!

Regards!
Janet R.
:-*
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Angie_H on September 22, 2004, 10:49:13 AM
Just before she died didn't Maria Alexandrovna have AII bring his and Catherine's children to her room and she blessed them? I think I remember reading that somewhere. Here is a picture I found of Catherine on the web (a Russian site. At work I surf the net looking for sites on the family in other languages).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/DolgorukajaEkaterinaMihajlovna.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on September 22, 2004, 10:58:09 AM
I've never heard about that. She was alone during her last days and wasn't really concious...but if that was true, bless her heart becuase I don't think I could have done it.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on September 22, 2004, 07:38:21 PM
Quote
Just before she died didn't Maria Alexandrovna have AII bring his and Catherine's children to her room and she blessed them? I think I remember reading that somewhere.


Hi Angie_H,

The Empress Maria died alone in her sleep, without even the presence of her nurse.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 22, 2004, 08:46:16 PM
Does any have more pictures of Catherine and her children?  ;D please!


Oh yeah one more thing! Does anyone know how Prince George and Princesses Olga & Catherine married?

I know Gogo married and had only one child 'Alexander'

Olga married a Count of Merenberg and had three children two sons and a daughter

Catherine married twice first marrage two Sons and second no children.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Angie_H on October 15, 2004, 06:51:03 AM
I found these 2 pics on the Agence Photographique de la Réunion des Musées Nationaux site.  But I don't think they are of Catherine. I think they are of her sister?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/PrincesseDolgorouka.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/PrincesseDolgorouka2.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: AGRBear on December 01, 2004, 02:43:10 PM
Good book - Alexandre Tarsaidze's
                  KATIA, Wife Before God
which was published in 1969.

It'll answer many of your questions you've asked and allow you to view "Katia" ["Katya"] from a different perspective plus there are some photographs not usually found in book about the Romanovs.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: AGRBear on December 01, 2004, 03:50:20 PM
Book cover:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/KATIAbk.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: AGRBear on December 02, 2004, 09:43:35 AM
KATIA,  Wife Before God b  Alexandre Tarsaidze.

p. 90:

"In the fulfilment of his, "  [Alex. II's], "desire 'to be with her, " [Katia], " 'all of the time,' the Czar had actually the 'help and  guidence' of Katia's mother, the old Princess Vera Dolgorukov."  Despite all of this,  their relationship in the first year was not sexual.  

Katia writes:  "How was I able to resist him for so long?  How is it I did not love him sooner?  I think that it was only the fact of seeing him so sad and distressed one day that finally succumbed and our love triumphed."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on December 07, 2004, 01:20:11 PM
In letters to and from Vicky and QV:

Vicky to QV in June 1880:
'All you say about the Emperor of Russia is too true!....The impression...is that the Empress suffered cruelly from her husband's infidelity and that she never uttered a murmur, complaint or reproach...but died of a broken heart. Affie and Marie are convinced that she never knew of the existence of this lady or of the children but that the Emperor was most tender and kind to the last. Russians have told me the lady is impertinent to the Emperor before others and shows him a want of respect, which is very shocking and thta she is ugly, vulgar and very greedy and effrontee that the children live in the Winter Palace, etc. But one hears such contradictory accounts that they leave one the option of believing the best and mildest versions which one had so much rather believe out of affection for the Emperor.

QV to Vicky July 1880
'With regard to what you say...(which letter I have burned) [must've been an interim letter]. I told you already what I know but since then I have heard more from a perfectly reliable source for it comes from Darmstadt (which please don't mention). It is that (which you also told me) the immorality in the highest circles is 'unfathomable' that the feeling towards the Emperor is disloyal and that his conduct leads to this. That it is so open and that that woman and her children lived in the Winter Palace and in the Palace at Zarsko! That the Emperor took every spare moment to go to her--even during the funeral ceremonies. Is it not too horrible? How can the children endure this?...[She goes on to comment on the exemplary family life of Tsarevich Alexander] ...Up to a certain time the present Emperor was very well conducted adn the Emperor Nicholas much more so still. You say the youngest child wqs born at Livadia--that was last winter. But one was born there before! And one the very night the poor Grand Duchess Marie died. Is it not too disgusting? If I had been the Empress I would have refused to comply with such a request which is an insult--and would have left Russia. If such terrible things have to be done they ought to be hidden away out of sight--and the object be a person who could not pretend to appear.'
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on April 03, 2005, 09:18:17 AM
Amazing photo of Catherine n 1866

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/1866dolgorukaya.jpg)

She doesn't look much pretty here
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: hikaru on April 16, 2005, 02:24:05 AM
Rotshschild's family passed to Russia at the end of 2001 to Russia
3450 letters from Alexandr To Ekaterina and about 1500 letters from Ekaterina to Alexandr. Her memories text and some personal belongings were included too.

They sounds so lovely and romantique.
It would be very good if it could be published.

I enjoyed our filme "Roman of Emperor" very much.
It was made in real Palaces . Main palace where the
film was made was the palace of Vladimir  - Now Dom Uchonikh (Scholar's House) They used only antique things (except the dresses) So, my highly recommendations.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on April 24, 2005, 05:31:01 PM
Are you talking about
" Romance of the Emperor"?

I have heard of this film about Alexander II and Princess Dolgoruka but have never been able to find it.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Lisa on April 25, 2005, 04:13:14 AM
                (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/File0009.jpg)

               (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/File0021.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Lisa on April 25, 2005, 04:19:06 AM
Here she is very pretty:
                  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/Photo152.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on May 04, 2005, 11:54:21 PM
Quote
Just before she died didn't Maria Alexandrovna have AII bring his and Catherine's children to her room and she blessed them? I think I remember reading that somewhere. Here is a picture I found of Catherine on the web (a Russian site. At work I surf the net looking for sites on the family in other languages).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/DolgorukajaEkaterinaMihajlovna.jpg)


I'm reading " Katia: Wife before God" and indeed it does say that Alexander II brought his two children by Katia to meet the Empress who did kiss them and bless them!

" On the other hand, we know from the reminiscence of the maid Vera that the children, Gogo and Olga, went "once" to the Palace, where "Papa" took them to "Aunty" (the Empress), who kissed them and blessed them, " while Aunty and Papa cried."

This was confirmed by Katia's maid Vera.  If this indeed is true then I must give a whole lot more credit to Empress Maria's kind heart.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on May 05, 2005, 12:17:37 AM
Another thing about I read in Katia: Wife before God, was the total lack of respect Katia had towards the Empress. Although the author notes that from his sources she is said to have been very loyal to Empress, I highly question this, when I read that upon the time for delivery of her third child, she insited she be taken to the Winter Palace.

She and Vera( her maid) went to the street to find a cab, only to not find one and had to walk several blocks as her labor pains became more and more intense until she finally cried out and asked Vera to carry her. Naturally the maid could not carry her, so she tried to support her the best she could until they finally reached a cab and went to the winter palace through a back door where she was taken to rest room of the Tsar. She delivered a son Boris, who was taken out of the Winter Palace and taken back to her home while Katia remained in the palace for nine days , while the Empress occupied the floors below!

Boris caught cold and within less than a week he was dead.

I cannot understand why she would have wanted to deliver in the Winter Palace when she was able to remain in her flat, have a midwife summond. It would have been a far less stressful delievery and would not have needed to expose her baby to cold by having him snuck out of the palace and taken back to her flat.  Overall a very sad story, as she was able to deliver her child in the palace but only to lose her son.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duke on May 05, 2005, 05:02:21 PM
Quote
At work I surf the net looking for sites on the family in other languages).


If your boss knows...  :-/ . Beware!  ;)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 19, 2005, 03:31:09 AM
Reviving this old thread  :)

More pics of Princess Ekaterina.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/emd.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/emd1.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 19, 2005, 03:33:07 AM
With her children, Georgiy and Olga

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/emdchildren.jpg)

With her sister-in-law, wife of her brother Mikhail

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Alex3/emdsil.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 19, 2005, 03:34:46 AM
Well, she was not a great beauty but quite a charming lady,not very photogenic I think.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Marc on December 19, 2005, 07:48:19 AM
Very interesting pictures!She looks very distiquished..who was her sister in law?Are there any portraits of Princess Dolgorukaya?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 19, 2005, 08:09:16 AM
Her sister-in-law was an Italian countess.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 27, 2005, 01:13:11 AM
Yes, Olga was very pretty but her sister Ekaterina was not.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: José on December 27, 2005, 09:42:56 AM
Quote

QV to Vicky July 1880...
You say the youngest child wqs born at Livadia--that was last winter. But one was born there before! And one the very night the poor Grand Duchess Marie died. Is it not too disgusting?


A child born the night the Empress died ?
Was QV badly informed or was there a 5th child ?


1.Pr George Yurievsky (St.Petersburg 12 May 1872-Marburg 13 Sep 1913);  

2. Pss Olga Yurievsky (St.Petersburg 7 Nov 1874-Wiesbaden 10 Aug 1925);  

3. Boris (23 Feb 1876-11 Apr 1876), posthumously legitimated ;

4. Pss Catherine Yurievska (St.Petersburg 9 Sep 1878-North Hayling, England 22 Dec 1959);
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 28, 2005, 12:11:54 AM
The quote mentions ""Grand Duchess Marie", not "The Empress". Might be QV  talked about Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna, who died in 1876, the same year when Boris was born.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: lafalaise on December 31, 2005, 11:35:50 AM
Like many others I also have a copy of "Katia: Wife before God" and find it fascinating. When  read about the discovery in the Rothschild Archives of more letters between the lovers (2001 I think) I was prompted to buy this book.

My question is this: these additional letters were not available to the author of "Katia, Wife before God" and does anyone know of plans to write a new, updated book to include this find? When I consider that Alexander had an empire to run, and it was the custom for Tsars to work without private secretaries, how did he find the time to write so often to Katia (several times a day in many instances)?

Any views gratefully received !  
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on January 03, 2006, 10:51:38 AM
Quote
how did he find the time to write so often to Katia (several times a day in many instances)?


British Prime Minister Asquith became infatuated with Venetia Stanley, a friend of his daughter's, and secretly wrote 2-3 letters a day to her - even during cabinet meetings and in the 1st world war.  I expect this insessant letter-writing was an outlet for these married men like Asquith and Alexander II who could not publically make demonstrations of affection towards their loved ones.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: lafalaise on January 03, 2006, 11:52:08 AM
That was helpful, thank you! It's just as well that letters were the only private means of communication so that many have survived today, rather than text messaging for example, that is lost to the historians of tomorrow.

Can anyone tell me though, if they have heard of plans to include the 3000 odd letters that were discoved in 2001, in a new or updated version of "Katia, wife before God" ?

Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Sarushka on January 11, 2006, 09:57:54 AM
Ekaterina Dolgorukaya
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2605/dolgorukaya4lr.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: hikaru on January 11, 2006, 04:23:07 PM
I have found in our domestic interntet that there were 5000 letters between Ekaterina and Alexandr in the
archive of KGB. Now they were transfered into the GARF.
I would like to read a book made up from these letters very much.
I have the book of the letters of Catherine the Great.
I like to re-read this book very very much!!!!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: hikaru on January 30, 2006, 01:27:16 AM
Museum of Peterhof have bought at one auction some letters between Alexandr II and Princess Dolgorukaya and these letters now are exhibited in the museum of new collections in Peterhof.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: imperial angel on April 10, 2006, 11:30:36 AM
On a very light note, their daughter Olga certainly had the Romanov look. That picture of her Mandie posted reminds me of photos of otma alot, particularly Tatiana. This affair was however, rather inappropriate, given that it was sort of flaunted to the poor Empress. It wasn't a casual affair of which Alexander II had many, and could have had many more, it was a true passionate relationship. Certainly in their youth, and slightly beyond Alexander had loved his wife, it was a love match. It is understandable, that given the fact she could not, due to health and the birth of many children, perform her marital dutuies for Alexander, he sought solace elesewhere. But this wasn't just solace, it was a major affair. You can understand how he felt, as his life might be taken from him anyday, but as well, your feelins must go to Marie Alexandrovna, a good woman who had enough suffering.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Morecambrian on May 20, 2006, 01:33:27 PM
A friend recently told me has the autobiography of Princess Catherine Yourevskaya (died  1959)entitled "My Book". He wants to sell it. Is it rare?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on May 21, 2006, 04:04:12 AM
Quote
A friend recently told me has the autobiography of Princess Catherine Yourevskaya (died  1959)entitled "My Book". He wants to sell it. Is it rare?

Quite rare.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: imperial angel on May 22, 2006, 04:21:23 PM
I have never heard of that book, so it must be rare. She was one of his daughters, I think the longest lived one from his marriage with Princess Dolgurukaya.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: helenrappaport on March 24, 2007, 07:04:41 PM

A news item in the London Times today reveals that seven explicit love letters written by Alexander II to his mistress Ekaterina Dolgorukaya were put up for auction in Berlin on behalf of their owner - an unnamed French aristocrat.

Here's the link to the online edition:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1560636.ece
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: zolishka on March 29, 2007, 08:50:01 AM
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/likeafly/romanov/alexii.jpg)

From an old book, hence the quality. And as always I blame on my scanner...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ilyala on April 07, 2007, 07:43:04 AM
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/449352780_7b297d0e77.jpg)

i've always liked this photo of alexander
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: pastpalacelife on April 07, 2007, 09:19:08 PM
This has probably already been answered somewhere, sorry, but are there any descendants still living from Alexander and Dolgorukaya? 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 09, 2007, 05:38:42 PM
Very few descendants, but i don't remember how many. :/
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: pastpalacelife on April 09, 2007, 08:56:20 PM
Does anyone have pictures of descendents from Alexander II and Princess Dolgorukaya? 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ilyala on April 16, 2007, 09:09:13 AM
try page 2 of this topic.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Lucien on May 21, 2007, 02:44:22 AM
Two dozen love letters of the couple were auctioned in Paris last week,for 10.000 euro (only!),part of thousands of letters between the love birds,who had their own "french " version for the word/act sex:"bingerle" and according to the letters,you see that word used quite often,not to say in every letter....a very passionate pair.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: tsarsrule on June 11, 2007, 05:23:06 AM
i find that extremley disgusting, him and his mistress, they`re sickening! >:(
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 11, 2007, 05:37:50 PM
Wow, that's pretty graphic, considering it was the 19th century... 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on June 11, 2007, 06:19:14 PM
That is quite out there.  I wonder what Empress Maria Alexandrovna would think if she saw them?  They are really crude, but I don't think they should be auctioned though.  They are private and should be kept that way. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: carl fraley on August 02, 2007, 10:29:47 PM
Will or have any of AII's direct descendants trying to block their publication?  Can any of the collateral branches (Desc of his brothers) stop the publications legally?  Has HIH Grand Duchess Maria made any public statement?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 11:07:31 PM
What is disgusting about private correspondence only meant for the eyes of two lovers? What is disgusting is it all being made public. I doubt any of us would wish our private lives to be made public in such a way.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: carl fraley on August 03, 2007, 04:53:00 PM
I agree with you totally Dimitri... Those were private letters and should remain so.  DOes anyone know how they left the family's posession?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on August 04, 2007, 04:04:20 AM
I agree with you totally Dimitri... Those were private letters and should remain so.  DOes anyone know how they left the family's posession?


The correspondence of Alexander II and Ekaterina Dolgorukaya had been settlled  in some private collections. The main part of the letters ( about 4 thousands) though are now in the Russian State Archives, they had been exchanged with the  Rothschilds in the 1990s...So the items that periodicallly popped up at the auctions are just remainders of the whole collection.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: tsarsrule on August 04, 2007, 08:43:33 AM
dmitri- what i meant by disgusting was really because it was happening while his wife was dying of tb!
it hurt the tsarina deeply but she still forgave him, i find tsar alexander II heartless.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: KiKi on August 04, 2007, 10:14:27 AM
Wow, that is all I can say about the content of the letters.

I also think they should be kept private.  I am sure the Tzar had no idea they would be made, in part or in whole, available to the public. 

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on August 04, 2007, 10:26:27 AM

I also think they should be kept private.  I am sure the Tzar had no idea they would be made, in part or in whole, available to the public. 



We can think and sound off and declare that the whole thing is disgusting but we can't stop the people who want to  get money through the sale of those letters...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2007, 12:23:13 PM
I think we understand a little better why many royals (to the despair of historians) burn their correspondence.  :-X Yes, it sheds a light on the relationship between AII & Katia but they are intensely personal (and graphic) letters between 2 individuals.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: KiKi on August 04, 2007, 03:36:53 PM
I think I would burn everything after I read it.  Thank God, I don't have to worry about such things.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grace on August 04, 2007, 05:13:00 PM
I can't see what the problem is here? 

Not only is everyone concerned long dead, there's nothing libellous here - the letters were written by their own hands.  Whether it's a week ago or 150 years ago, if you don't want others to know your personal feelings, don't write them down - simple.  :-\   

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 29, 2008, 03:46:41 PM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on January 30, 2008, 12:50:41 AM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

Whom do you mean? Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya as a prostitute and Alexander II as a rotten one?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 30, 2008, 12:57:10 PM
Yes indeed
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: beladona on January 30, 2008, 04:14:00 PM
Quote
Where did you find such portrait of Ekaterina, Marc? Are you absolutely sure that is she? ;)

I believe it is Ekaterina too.  I know the portrait is a quite shocking and I was shocked to see her painted naked too.  However, the description says this is an allegorical painting.  

I think it should be Ekaterina. Alexander was very lustful. I have read in his biography (from E. Radzinsky) that he has a collection of erotical and pornographic pictures of Ekaterina. He also had a great collection of paintings with erotical motifs.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on January 30, 2008, 04:34:57 PM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

Alexander II was most certainly not "a rotten man" as you have so boldly asserted.

Ekaterina Dolgorukaya was faithful to Alexander all her life, the mother of his children and eventually became his wife. Her behavior can hardly described as that of a prostitute.

Your comments are most disrespectful.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Valmont on January 30, 2008, 04:55:53 PM
Margarita,
I don’t want to take any sides here, but how do you call a woman who gets involved with a married man and even goes to live under the same roof his wife lives??. She was a commoner and ended up living a life she only dreamed about. Of course she was faithful to Alexander, she would have been a fool if she didn’t… Let’s just see the facts. Let’s just say her behavior was not very decent to say the least….

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on January 30, 2008, 05:19:08 PM
Arturo,

Dolgorukaya was not a commoner, but of minor nobility.

I have a strong objection to the definition "prostitute" that was used against this woman by one poster.

However I will concede that Alexander II's living arrangements were unusual.

Margarita
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2008, 12:52:24 AM

Alexander II was most certainly not "a rotten man" as you have so boldly asserted.

Ekaterina Dolgorukaya was faithful to Alexander all her life, the mother of his children and eventually became his wife. Her behavior can hardly described as that of a prostitute.

Your comments are most disrespectful.


I second that.


but how do you call a woman who gets involved with a married man and even goes to live under the same roof his wife lives??.


But how can we sit here and judge a woman we never knew personally?
It always amazes me than one starts jumping to conclusions as if one lived then and there...Of course the situation with Alexander and Ekaterina was not a usual one but how can we decide now WHAT would have been better for them? Those were their lives, their feelings, misgivings and fatal mistakes...I don't try to whiten the Emperor and his lover, I just want to say - it's most disrespectful to judge people whom we never knew - we only can try to understand them if we can. And , well, if we will continue labelling them then we ends with such like this : Empress Alexandra Fedorovna is a psycho, Emperor Nicholas II is a fool, and most of the Romanovs are downright scoundrels and pretty dims...Sounds shockingly and leads to a vivid discussion but it's not a seriuos talk about the Royals.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 31, 2008, 08:05:45 AM
No, there is a certain difference...there can be no doubt whatsoever that Alexander II loved that person, founded a second family with her, housed her in his own residences. We even know their letters...

I blame both for treating the Empress Maria Alexandrowna in such a disgusting manner...From our modern point of view it might be considered ok, perhaps even allday-like, to be married AND to have a lover and 2nd family. But did you ever think about the status of a wife born in the early 19th century - educated to be decorative and loyal to her husband. I have read her letters - she never complains although she suffered from a terrible disease which meant death in those days, although the Tsar loved a person of unequal rank and housed her in the same edifice, although he even took that person with him when travelling to Germany, to her beloved home!
I bow in front of the Empress for not only accepting her personal suffering but also the OFFICIAL scandal (we know Queen Victoria's view of the story) considering her status as Tsarina.
She had no chance to break out and she didn't want to. She loved that man who has USED her until she had produced 8 children - and when she was not young pretty and healthy anymore...what happened?

So do not tell me that I may not judge like I did and do not compare that story with "Alexandra was a psycho" nonsense!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2008, 01:15:31 PM
No, there is a certain difference...there can be no doubt whatsoever that Alexander II loved that person, founded a second family with her, housed her in his own residences. We even know their letters...

I blame both for treating the Empress Maria Alexandrowna in such a disgusting manner...From our modern point of view it might be considered ok, perhaps even allday-like, to be married AND to have a lover and 2nd family. But did you ever think about the status of a wife born in the early 19th century - educated to be decorative and loyal to her husband. I have read her letters - she never complains although she suffered from a terrible disease which meant death in those days, although the Tsar loved a person of unequal rank and housed her in the same edifice, although he even took that person with him when travelling to Germany, to her beloved home!
I bow in front of the Empress for not only accepting her personal suffering but also the OFFICIAL scandal (we know Queen Victoria's view of the story) considering her status as Tsarina.
She had no chance to break out and she didn't want to. She loved that man who has USED her until she had produced 8 children - and when she was not young pretty and healthy anymore...what happened?

So do not tell me that I may not judge like I did and do not compare that story with "Alexandra was a psycho" nonsense!

And so you think that if Empress Maria Alexandrovna suffered much and never complained then Ekaterina was a prostitute? Wow, wonderful conclusion!...Conragts.

I did not tell to you personally "don't judge" I just said that in my opinion "it's most disrespectful to judge people whom we never knew"... even if we can read their letters. Also I didn't compare Alexandra Fedorovna and this story - read carefully!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: gogm on January 31, 2008, 08:33:55 PM
Maintenance of a "second family" was common enough in the upper classes. You could get off with it. No paparazzi! No Fox news (problem for US Democrats only). Nelson Rockefeller and Franklin Roosevelt had serious relationships outside of marriage - more involved than whatever Mr. Clinton did. Nelson Rockefeller's became his second wife, as I recall (her nickname was "Happy).
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on February 01, 2008, 03:35:13 AM
It might have been common - but this does not mean that it was right, especially as the Tsar did not even try to hide this morganatic relation; he even took her to Heiligenberg - incredible.
Princess Marie zu Erbach Schönberg, his niece, wrote that "something died within me" when learning that Alexander II had done this to the Empress. It was a real offence for the Hessian family
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: imperial angel on February 01, 2008, 11:28:47 AM
It seems to me the worst thing about the whole thing was he wasn't very discreet about it. Many other rulers in history had mistresses, some flaunted them, some didn't. By the 19th century, it seem that flaunting them was not the fashion, so perhaps Alexander II acted untypically for his time there. He should have kept it more private. I thought I read, but wasn't sure that in Edwardian times ( a little later than this) at least in England under Edward VII, who had more than a few mistresses, that extra marital affairs were common, but only as long as they were kept fairly discreet and private, and appearances were observed. Maybe I am thinking of someplace else. The Russian court was never known for its morality, though. This is one reason Alexandra wanted to keep away from them, although that was interpreted in the wrong way, and led to more trouble for her. So perhaps Alexander II's affair was typical.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 01, 2008, 11:47:57 AM
Basically, A II's behavior was very cruel to his wife, which is why his older children were upset with him. He could have had his mistress, but he should have been a lot more discreet (like for example not move her into the palace while his wife was still alive, etc.). I think he felt he was doing right by Dolgorukaya and his children with her, but at the same time he completely disregarded the feelings of the Empress, who was already very sick at the time. It was selfish on his part, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 08, 2008, 04:20:59 PM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...


Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch.

Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, runing to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 25, 2008, 06:36:57 PM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...


Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch.

Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, runing to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

And yet, we don't really know how Boris died. We don't know alot of things about the marriage of Alexander II and his first wife. We do know that the death of Nixa, their eldest son, caused a cataclysm in that marriage, though. (And this type of thing happens to non royals who lose children, too.). The wife became ill and basically withdrew from life. The husband continued chasing a much younger woman.

So, for those who want to judge these people - and many do - please don't overlook the fact that all were dealing with a great loss of one kind or another.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 26, 2008, 01:16:55 AM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch. Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, running to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

Wow! At least no one on the board can be accused of being dispassionate.

Lisa makes an excellent point - Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years. I can understand her reasons, I’m not trying to condemn MA, but I can also see his side of things. Lonely, grief-stricken, instead of withdrawing Alexander went searching for whatever happiness he could still find in life. Apparently, he found happiness with Ekaterina.

Do I find his behavior admirable? No, I don't. Especially, the way he handled MA's death. His behavior at that point was disgraceful. It may be explained in part, however, by the well-founded fear he had of Ekaterina and their children being physically harmed. He felt that they would be safer inside the palace.

To refer to Ekaterina as a prostitute and a b**** (who knew such language was allowed on this site!) is a bit harsh. She seems to have genuinely loved Alexander and remained faithful to him even after his death. Their relationship wasn’t something simply based on a desire for wealth or power. I agree that she was naïve, but I hesitate to label her a b****.

Regarding the child’s death, is there a credible source for this claim that she caused Boris’ death? I understand that it was in a book, but what source did the author cite? I just wonder if this claim was true or malicious gossip. Lord knows there was more than enough gossip to go around in St. Petersburg.

Whatever sins Alexander II committed he certainly paid for them in spades with his death. I don't applaud adultery, but I find it difficult to begrudge the man whatever bit of happiness he was able to find before meeting his gruesome end. To dismiss Alexander II as simply as a “rotten man” is overly simplistic. His affair with Ekaterina was only one part of his life. There were many more facets to his character, some of them quite admirable (especially during his youth).

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 27, 2008, 01:28:38 PM
An undeserving, disgusting link between a rotten man and a prostitute...

In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb bitch. Katia practically (by accident of course!) killed her second son Boris, running to the winter palace with a maid and IN Labor! So the Imperial Bastard would be born in a palace- very Stupid of her and selfish! That possible a reason why poor Boris died as a baby!

Wow! At least no one on the board can be accused of being dispassionate.

Lisa makes an excellent point - Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years. I can understand her reasons, I’m not trying to condemn MA, but I can also see his side of things. Lonely, grief-stricken, instead of withdrawing Alexander went searching for whatever happiness he could still find in life. Apparently, he found happiness with Ekaterina.

Do I find his behavior admirable? No, I don't. Especially, the way he handled MA's death. His behavior at that point was disgraceful. It may be explained in part, however, by the well-founded fear he had of Ekaterina and their children being physically harmed. He felt that they would be safer inside the palace.

To refer to Ekaterina as a prostitute and a b**** (who knew such language was allowed on this site!) is a bit harsh. She seems to have genuinely loved Alexander and remained faithful to him even after his death. Their relationship wasn’t something simply based on a desire for wealth or power. I agree that she was naïve, but I hesitate to label her a b****.

Regarding the child’s death, is there a credible source for this claim that she caused Boris’ death? I understand that it was in a book, but what source did the author cite? I just wonder if this claim was true or malicious gossip. Lord knows there was more than enough gossip to go around in St. Petersburg.

Whatever sins Alexander II committed he certainly paid for them in spades with his death. I don't applaud adultery, but I find it difficult to begrudge the man whatever bit of happiness he was able to find before meeting his gruesome end. To dismiss Alexander II as simply as a “rotten man” is overly simplistic. His affair with Ekaterina was only one part of his life. There were many more facets to his character, some of them quite admirable (especially during his youth).



Thank you, Nadya. No, I am not a fan of adultery, either. I do profess annoyance, though, with the notion that women must either be plaster saints devoid of passion or morally bankrupt prostitutes. Real women fortunately fall in between these two ridiculous extremes.

Princess Dolgoruky was one such woman. She fell in love with a married man who was supposed to be her protector, which placed them both on a morally slippery slope down which they tumbled, as it were. I truly feel sorry for everyone involved - the poor wife, the Tsar, his mistress, and the Tsar's adult offspring and their families - all suffered through this situation.

As for Alexander II, for certain he was an adulterer, but that alone does not make him a "rotten man".
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 29, 2008, 06:18:27 AM

He was no commoner, no privatier, he was the head and (he should have been) paragon of the largest nation of the day...he had duties; Royals never belong themselves...

Considering that he lived in the 19th century, in an modern age....sorry - there is just one word: rotten
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on March 29, 2008, 07:31:44 AM

He was no commoner, no privatier, he was the head and (he should have been) paragon of the largest nation of the day...he had duties; Royals never belong themselves...

Considering that he lived in the 19th century, in an modern age....sorry - there is just one word: rotten

Why not learn to appreciate what Alexander II attempted to accomplish for Imperial Russia instead of imposing your condemnation over the choices the Emperor made in his personal life?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 29, 2008, 07:34:37 AM

He was no commoner, no privatier, he was the head and (he should have been) paragon of the largest nation of the day...he had duties; Royals never belong themselves...

Considering that he lived in the 19th century, in an modern age....sorry - there is just one word: rotten

Yes, perhaps he should have been a paragon of virtue, never setting a foot wrong, but I don't think you'll find too many individuals who can live up to the standard of national “paragon”. Most royals didn't (and still don't) live up to that standard. Their upbringing, their expectations, etc., may be quite different from our own, but they are still flesh and blood, fallible human beings, not marionettes.

You have every right, of course, to dislike anyone you choose (dead or living). I just think you should take the man's entire life into account and not only one part of it.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LenelorMiksi on March 30, 2008, 04:18:01 PM
Alexander II certainly hurt many people and possibly himself by his relationship with Princess Dolgorukaya.  Nobody can live up to the standards of "royal paragon".  Certainly, Alexander III & Nicholas II had exemplary family lives.  Yet both tended towards reactionary rule, in my opinion, whereas Alexander II really tried to bring some democratic principles to Russia.  No one can be perfect, no matter how hard he or she may try.  I find many aspects of AII's adultery distasteful, but it seems he really loved Pss Dolgorukaya.  It's easy to pass judgement.  It's much harder to try and step into someone's shoes and imagine why and how they acted the way they did.  However, it's worth the effort.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on April 02, 2008, 07:16:50 AM
Quote
Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years.

I think the suggestion that Alexander II's adultery arose from being emotionally isolated by his wife's retreat is a nice bit of special pleading but not borne out by any evidence - and indeed Maria Alexandrovna's becoming a 'depressing figure' (depressed rather than depressing I think) is usually attributed to (a) losing her favorite son - not exclusive to her husband (b) ill-health and (c) her husband taking a mistress and not being discreet about it.  Plenty of husbands manage to remain faithful to their wives despite domestic tragedy and illness and plenty don't.  Alexander II was one of the latter camp and this relationship was not to his credit.   It doesn't make him an evil person or his lover a prostitute - but it doesn't make him a good husband, either.  Suggesting he had no other option than to seek a more sympathetic companion is basically the routine of "my wife doesn't understand me" - though no doubt Alexander II and Catherine Dolgorukaya saw that as an original and convincing line. 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on April 02, 2008, 07:29:24 AM
I never once suggested he had "no other option." I simply stated my opinion that he probably began the affair because he felt isolated. I never claimed that his feelings in any way excused his adultery only that they may have led to it. As I mentioned in the post you've quoted, I realize why Maria was depressed and I sympathize with her. I was not attempting to blame her in any way for Alexander II's infidelity. Of course, it wasn't her fault. It was his choice to break his vows. I don't admire him for it, but I think I can understand how he might have found himself drawn to Ekaterina (or anyone else young and full of life) when he was at his lowest ebb.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 06, 2008, 01:04:15 AM
Quote
Alexander II had just lost his favorite son and heir. His wife retreated from the world leaving him emotionally isolated. From what I've read Maria Alexandrovna was quite a depressing figure, very morbid, in her later years.

I think the suggestion that Alexander II's adultery arose from being emotionally isolated by his wife's retreat is a nice bit of special pleading but not borne out by any evidence - and indeed Maria Alexandrovna's becoming a 'depressing figure' (depressed rather than depressing I think) is usually attributed to (a) losing her favorite son - not exclusive to her husband (b) ill-health and (c) her husband taking a mistress and not being discreet about it.  Plenty of husbands manage to remain faithful to their wives despite domestic tragedy and illness and plenty don't.  Alexander II was one of the latter camp and this relationship was not to his credit.   It doesn't make him an evil person or his lover a prostitute - but it doesn't make him a good husband, either.  Suggesting he had no other option than to seek a more sympathetic companion is basically the routine of "my wife doesn't understand me" - though no doubt Alexander II and Catherine Dolgorukaya saw that as an original and convincing line. 

I don't know where you get that the adultery "arose from being emotionally isolated" and I don't see anyone suggesting he was a good husband, or anyone saying he had no other option. Please show us where these things were said, because I don't see them.

I know what I said, and perhaps I should repeat it because perhaps it was not heard the first time:

We don't know alot of things about the marriage of Alexander II and his first wife. We do know that the death of Nixa, their eldest son, caused a cataclysm in that marriage, though. (And this type of thing happens to non royals who lose children, too.). The wife became ill and basically withdrew from life. The husband continued chasing a much younger woman.

So, for those who want to judge these people - and many do - please don't overlook the fact that all were dealing with a great loss of one kind or another.


In this post, I clearly point out that Alexander's adultery predated his son's death. Yes, I feel compassion for everyone in this situation - certainly for the abadoned wife and but also for the adulterous couple and in addition, for Alexander's children. Several people said that Princess Dolgoruky was a prostitute - which she was not - and that Alexander II was "rotten". People often have many shadings and I certainly agree that he was a bad husband.

A little compassion could go a long way.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on May 12, 2008, 11:35:25 AM
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 12, 2008, 03:19:32 PM
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...

Who are you addressing? It's not clear from your post to whom you are addressing your questions.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on May 12, 2008, 04:03:41 PM
I am addressing you
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 12, 2008, 04:40:48 PM
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...

The Empress was frequently ill and thus unable at times to carry out her duties as Russian Empress in public life. Yes, (I am being sarcastic here), I make statements without ever checking any facts.

My point in all of this "Thomas of Hesse", is that the marriage of the Emperor and Empress was their marriage and that they both suffered enormously when their young heir died so tragically. It has been your contention that His Imperial Majesty was "rotten" and I will concede he was not a good husband. It was your contention that Princess Dolgorukaya was a "prostitute", which I find sexist and incorrect. The Princess was left a ward of the Emperor by her father. That HIM abused his authority over Katya and had an affair with her is his failing, not hers.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 12, 2008, 05:16:45 PM
BUT, was Alexander nice to her after she became very ill, and death of two children? no!

 he treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died, that's unfair! I still haven't change my opinion about Alexander or Catherine, and Thomas Hesse, I see nothing wrong with your opinion.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on May 12, 2008, 05:18:08 PM
I make statements without ever checking any facts.

Thank you for confessing. I think there are no further comments necessary.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: StevenL on May 12, 2008, 05:36:44 PM
he treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died

How can you possibly know these things? A marriage is a complex thing in itself,
never mind a marriage strained by the tragic loss of a child. We cannot know
what went on between these people, or know what killed their relationship, or
even exactly when it ended.

Princess Dolgoruky was certainly not a prostitute. In fact it is completely ignorant to even say so.
If anything, she is to be pitied, having been seduced as a girl by her protector, who, from what
evidence exists, appears to have genuinely loved her. People are not always angels or "rotten."
In fact most of us fall somewhere like half-way in between.

Steven
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 12, 2008, 06:54:11 PM
BUT, was Alexander nice to her after she became very ill, and death of two children? no!

 he treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died, that's unfair! I still haven't change my opinion about Alexander or Catherine, and Thomas Hesse, I see nothing wrong with your opinion.

She was ill throughout their marriage. Was it "nice" for him to have his mistress and their children living in the same palace? It was horrible. I'm not looking to change any minds here - if all you are stating is your opinion and if you lack compassion because of the way he treated his wife, it is my hope that you are never in need of compassion from others. If you are simply agreeing that Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute", then I have the same opinion of your opinion as I do TH's.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 12, 2008, 06:55:54 PM
I make statements without ever checking any facts.

Thank you for confessing. I think there are no further comments necessary.

Well, unless your tongue is firmly planted in your cheek, yes there are. I was being sarcastic and you are still a sexist.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on May 12, 2008, 11:47:51 PM
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...

If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

BUT, was Alexander nice to her after she became very ill, and death of two children? No!  He treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died, that's unfair!

What Alexander II did, taking on his young ward as a mistress, abandoning MA, was certainly indecent. I’m sure everyone posting would agree on that point. It was a sad, shameful, pathetic chapter in Alexander II's life. I just don't feel that it nullifies any and all achievements made during the course of his life.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 13, 2008, 12:45:10 AM
Where did you read that the Empress withdrew from life? And what do you mean with that common phrase? Her letters speak another language... And I presume that you did not read a single one of those...

If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

BUT, was Alexander nice to her after she became very ill, and death of two children? No!  He treated Marie like if she was already dead when Nicholas, their son and Heir died, that's unfair!

What Alexander II did, taking on his young ward as a mistress, abandoning MA, was certainly indecent. I’m sure everyone posting would agree on that point. It was a sad, shameful, pathetic chapter in Alexander II's life. I just don't feel that it nullifies any and all achievements made during the course of his life.

Exactly, and thank you for your defense. I could not have said it better myself.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on May 13, 2008, 01:45:47 AM
No thanks are needed. What you wrote about MA was correct and I felt someone should point that out.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 13, 2008, 08:40:33 AM
Wasn't Dolgorukhaya only about 16 or 17 when the affair with AII started? He would go to prison for that today... You can't exactly hold the girl responsible for this, but you can certainly hold him responsible. He was the one who was married, he was the one who put his sick wife through mental anguish when he moved his mistress and their children into the palace, and all the while he was a mature adult. When the affair started, Dolgorukaya was just a teenager who was undoubtedly flattered by the attention from an older man, and a powerful one at that. This happens so often. Of course she imagined herself to be in love with him, and maybe she was, but as someone else said eariler he took advantage of her youth and inexperience and of his position. I am sure he gave her the usual song and dance that married men give - about his wife "not understanding" him, etc. To refer to her as a "prostitute" is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on May 13, 2008, 12:17:11 PM
If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen.

If Lisa confesses not to have read the Empress's own comments - and there are incredibly many left (!) - may I not express my opinion that it I think it wrong to judge Maria Alexandrovna in such a unqualified manner?!
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 13, 2008, 01:43:24 PM
If you are convinced that she was a far livelier, healthy, energetic person than other posts have suggested, fine. Perhaps Maria Alexandrovna was. However, every single account I've ever read described her as an invalid for many years before her death. MA's health was never robust. Her many pregnancies, combined with the Russian climate, absolutely ravaged her heath. Rather like another future Hessian-born Empress, Alexandra Feodorovna. MA may not have withdrawn from life intellectually, but physically she was forced to withdraw from many aspects of court life. She also withdrew from life at court in a more literal sense by spending considerable time abroad during the latter part of her life. So I don't see how you can accuse Lisa of being ill-informed on that score. You have a right to your opinion, Thomas, I have a right to mine, and Lisa has a right to her's. You don't have to be insulting, though. Why not just quote from some of MA's letters, instead, to prove your point about MA.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen.

If Lisa confesses not to have read the Empress's own comments - and there are incredibly many left (!) - may I not express my opinion that it I think it wrong to judge Maria Alexandrovna in such a unqualified manner?!
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.


Are you familiar with the concept that intelligent people can disagree without being disagreeable? Do you know what sarcasm is? I am asking you these questions because you are giving others the impression that you don't understand sarcasm and that you have to be nasty and call historical figures names in order to communicate your disapproval of their conduct and your disagreement with other posters.

I am going to repeat for the third and last time: I did not say I hadn't read Maria Alexandrovna's letters, I said I was being sarcastic, meaning, I did not mean what I was saying. I did this because of the very demeaning way you spoke to me - and I thought humor might be a better way to communicate. Since attempts at humor are completely lost on you, I will cease the light approach. You need to be respectful (and not disagreeable) when disagreeing with others. If you continue to ignore my sarcasm, I will refer this to the FA for action.

I have certainly not judged MA in "an unqualified manner" but because of your characterization of the ward Dolgorukaya as a "prostitute" my assumption is that you are insulting me in this manner because you have a low opinion of women in general which clouds your judgement. MA was physically unable to do the job of Russian empress - as others have pointed out, as was Alexandra F - and this is the "withdrawal from the world". I also clearly point out that Alexander II's infidelity predated Nixa's death. In no way was MA responsible ever for her husband's betrayal. And, no one has mixed up the causality of his actions except you.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 13, 2008, 04:21:45 PM
if all you are stating is your opinion and if you lack compassion because of the way he treated his wife, it is my hope that you are never in need of compassion from others. If you are simply agreeing that Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute", then I have the same opinion of your opinion as I do TH's.

Lisa D,

Thats were I don't agree with TH Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute". I agree he can say what ever he whats, because it HIS opinion. opinions aren't fact.
True I don't have  much compassion for Alexander, because MY FATHER treated my mother rotten in similar ways! however no siblings died and my mother's heath is good.  So please, don't dare to say of my opinions for someone whom reminds me of the awful ways of my father.  but I  still, don't like nether and nothing would change my opinion (not a fact), stay all you want about Alexander and Catherine, but never tell me i have no compassion!
Yes, poor Marie had no ability to do her duties as Empress, not her fault, nor anyone else's.

StevenL

Of course, I know marriage life isn't heaven at times and were no angels, but they way he treated Marie, and how Catherine enter the picture,  it  just sickens me. I don't think Catherine is a prostitute and a bad person, I just don't like her.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 13, 2008, 04:30:22 PM

Warning: bad Language!

I don't find Katia a prostitute (in someways yes, then Alex II is a Male slut too!) Thomas Hesse- A little harsh but I agree with you about the mean treatment on poor Maria!

 In this words about Katia-  a selfish, naive, dumb b****h.


Ah, yes, my opinion, in the meaning of "someways" because i don't believe in Adultery, thats what i should of posted, since everybody don't think the same way, by opinions & other things. so i never really called her one!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 13, 2008, 04:41:50 PM
if all you are stating is your opinion and if you lack compassion because of the way he treated his wife, it is my hope that you are never in need of compassion from others. If you are simply agreeing that Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute", then I have the same opinion of your opinion as I do TH's.

Lisa D,

Thats were I don't agree with TH Alexander was "rotten" and Katya a "prostitute". I agree he can say what ever he whats, because it HIS opinion. opinions aren't fact.
True I don't have  much compassion for Alexander, because MY FATHER treated my mother rotten in similar ways! however no siblings died and my mother's heath is good.  So please, don't dare to say of my opinions for someone whom reminds me of the awful ways of my father.  but I  still, don't like nether and nothing would change my opinion (not a fact), stay all you want about Alexander and Catherine, but never tell me i have no compassion!
Yes, poor Marie had no ability to do her duties as Empress, not her fault, nor anyone else's.

StevenL

Of course, I know marriage life isn't heaven at times and were no angels, but they way he treated Marie, and how Catherine enter the picture,  it  just sickens me. I don't think Catherine is a prostitute and a bad person, I just don't like her.


I am so sorry that your father treated your mother badly. That's very sad. And, thank you for clarifying that you don't apply those labels to Alexander II and Princess Dolgorouky. I think sometimes when we've seen this kind of bad behavior up close, it's really tough to separate our personal feelings from the mix.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on May 14, 2008, 09:05:03 PM
Wasn't Dolgorukhaya only about 16 or 17 when the affair with AII started? He would go to prison for that today... Y

Ekaterina was born in 1847. They met shortly before her 17th birthday in late 1864. However, they only became intimate in the summer of 1866. That means that Ekaterina was 18 (just shy of her 19th birthday) at the time. Having an affair with an 18-year-old is sleazy, but it’s not illegal. He wouldn’t go to jail if it happened today.

Your comment, dear Nadya, reminds me very much of the common prejudices people use to put on several historical persons. Wonderful example: Grand Duke Sergej Alexandrovitch. Many ignore positive comments about his personality - such as the one of his brother in law, Ernst Ludwig of Hessen...
Nobody doubts that she suffered from TB most time of her life. But you cannot state that she has "withdrawn" first and her husband took a mistress AFTERWARDS. The vice versa might be the case.
I will not quote from those letters as I am not the owner and do not have the right to do so.

Thomas if you are convinced that Lisa and I are woefully misinformed with regard to MA then by all means enlighten us. I’m not being sarcastic, either, I m completely in earnest.

You actually could quote from MA’s letters according to fair use. It would be one thing to reproduce the whole book online. That would certainly be a violation of copyright. Excessive quoting would be, too. Selective quoting wouldn’t be. However, if you are unfamiliar with the fair use law, and would rather not quote verbatim, why not paraphrase? You could tell us what sort of things she discussed in the letters. What activities she was engaging in. You could explain why you believe, contrary to the claims of the authors whose works I’ve read, that MA was a more active figure after 1860. I for one would be extremely interested in any additional information you could provide about the life of MA. I mean this sincerely.

I know she was initially quite active and tried to help her husband with his liberal reforms. It is my understanding, however, that by the early 1860s (just prior to his meeting Katya) she was often too ill to be physically active in any real sense, her failing health curtailed her activities, and she wasn’t as involved in Alexander’s life as she had once been. I also have read that, much like Alexandra Feodorovna (only minus a Rasputin-like figure thankfully), she became deeply immersed in religion and mysticism in her final years. That death became a preoccupation for her because of her TB and Nixa’s death. If I’m mistaken I would certainly welcome any correction on this point and an explanation of why I am mistaken. For example, are there any books you would recommend that I read to gain a new perspective on MA if my perception of her is indeed flawed?

I have regretted my earlier posts in this thread, because I wasn’t terribly clear. I never meant to suggest that he was completely faithful and dutiful prior to his affair with Katya. He had casual affairs (for lack of a better term) before Nixa’s death. I’m well aware of that. I’m also aware of the fact that his attraction to Katya predated Nixa’s death (he was instantly attracted to her when they met in 1864). However, Katya was his first truly all-consuming affair. It is my understanding that for two years their relationship was, technically, a platonic one. That they had only become lovers in the summer of 1866 – after the death of Nixa – while he was still in the grips of the depression caused by his son’s untimely death.

Alexander and MA had begun drifting apart several years before Nixa’s death. He suffered from deep depressions off and on throughout his life, and he found MA’s illness difficult to bear. She had withdrawn from his life in a literal physical sense, not only as a lover but also as a companion, bit-by-bit over the years. It was not done by her choice, but it did happen, and it had begun to happen before he finally threw her over for Katya. As for Nixa’s death, it wasn’t the sole cause of his affair with Katya, but IMHO his death effectively severed the last remaining bond that Alexander and MA possessed – their devotion to their eldest son – and led him to begin what was his most serious and flagrant affair.

Would he have had an affair with Katya prior to Nixa’s death? Yes, he would have had she agreed to become his mistress. However, I have doubts about whether the affair would have lasted any longer than the others had the Empress not been ill and had Nixa been alive. I tend to believe that had he been thinking clearly, had he been less depressed, his passion for Ekaterina would have run its course and burned out just as his passion for every other woman had. I don't think he would have been as callous to MA if Nixa had lived. As it was, Nixa's death seemed to spur him on, increasing his desire to escape his former life. I’m willing to admit that this is only my opinion, and I could be mistaken.

Was any of that MA’s fault? No. Of course, she wasn’t to blame for being ill, or for his depression, or for his desire to have a youthful and healthy companion. He chose to be unfaithful and his callous behavior doesn’t reflect well on him at all. When considering his life as a whole, however, his political legacy, I choose to try and put his shoddy behavior as a husband into some kind of perspective. It was only one part of his life.

Mandie, I too had a father who committed adultery. So, obviously, I don't think well of adultery or those who commit it. However, as I wrote to Thomas above, I tend to try and judge historical figures by their public legacy and not according to their private indiscretions. I can understand why you would feel differently, though, and certainly don't think you lack compassion.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 15, 2008, 07:54:22 AM
When considering his life as a whole, however, his political legacy, I choose to try and put his shoddy behavior as a husband into some kind of perspective. It was only one part of his life.

He was a good Tsar but a bad husband and father, at least toward the end of his life. Sort of the opposite of his grandson Nicholas II. But one thing has nothing to do with the other. Einstein was a terrible family man but still an incredible man. Same with Ben Franklin. Most people are either one or the other (or neither) but very few can be both...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: stacey simmons on June 02, 2008, 09:06:29 PM
 :-X  being czar meant in russia you were god on earth so having a mistress and kids in the same house as your wife is no big deal.putin just left his wife of 20 years for a woman half his age. 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on July 16, 2008, 12:54:27 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/katia1wm.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/katiawm.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: rusmila on November 29, 2008, 04:07:07 AM
I cant found diary of Ekaterina Jurevskaja or Alexander the Second?If you know please send me web adress. 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 30, 2008, 05:39:06 AM
I don't think that they're worth reading - that rotten relation comes clear enough through some of their surviving letters. There was a link a while ago
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: amelia on November 30, 2008, 07:34:30 AM
There is a book in French with their letters THE DEMON BLUE DU TSAR, and I agree, it was a very strange relationship. Through her letters you can see how demanding she was and how little love she had for the Tsar.

Amelia
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: rusmila on December 05, 2008, 09:13:17 AM
I much read about Chaterina Dolgorukaja and I think she is bitch.She didnt love Alexander but he is tsar and of course he didtn knew what she thinka about him.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 05, 2008, 03:28:47 PM
I much read about Chaterina Dolgorukaja and I think she is bitch.She didnt love Alexander but he is tsar and of course he didtn knew what she thinka about him.

Rusmila: Welcome to our Forum. I can see you are a newcomer.

Because you are new, I am inclined to be lenient with you. Many young people and students read our Forum and so I would like you to change your term describing Princess Dolgorukaya, because it's very offensive. Also, if stating an opinion, you should say so, or if citing a source for the Princess' feelings, you should name it.

I hope you enjoy your time on our Forum!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Jebediha on December 05, 2008, 03:48:51 PM
I much read about Chaterina Dolgorukaja and I think she is bitch.She didnt love Alexander but he is tsar and of course he didtn knew what she thinka about him.

How do you know she did not love him. ?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: rusmila on December 06, 2008, 03:45:34 AM
Because he is old and when hi get marrige her,he have 62 and she have a 33.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Jebediha on December 06, 2008, 04:36:06 AM
Because he is old and when hi get marrige her,he have 62 and she have a 33.

So you don`t know. You are just asuming she did not love him becuse he was 29 years older then her. But if you know you should give us a sourse on it and not claim somting when you can not prove it. Give us a sourse where it says that she did not love him.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: rusmila on December 06, 2008, 11:15:10 AM
Oh you prove this.If you be with Alexander and Ekaterina.If you be I belive you.Ok?I not knew Alexander and Ekaterina and I dont know this.But I think she isnt love Alexander.Ekaterina love Alexandre or no this know just she. :'(
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Jebediha on December 06, 2008, 12:35:23 PM
Oh you prove this.If you be with Alexander and Ekaterina.If you be I belive you.Ok?I not knew Alexander and Ekaterina and I dont know this.But I think she isnt love Alexander.Ekaterina love Alexandre or no this know just she. :'(

I am sorry but you don`t make any sense
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 08, 2008, 05:19:17 PM
Oh you prove this.If you be with Alexander and Ekaterina.If you be I belive you.Ok?I not knew Alexander and Ekaterina and I dont know this.But I think she isnt love Alexander.Ekaterina love Alexandre or no this know just she. :'(

I am sorry but you don`t make any sense

I agree, and the posts will be removed unless I determine a compelling reason not to do so!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 21, 2009, 03:20:09 PM
I much read about Chaterina Dolgorukaja and I think she is bitch.She didnt love Alexander but he is tsar and of course he didtn knew what she thinka about him.

Rusmila: Welcome to our Forum. I can see you are a newcomer.

Because you are new, I am inclined to be lenient with you. Many young people and students read our Forum and so I would like you to change your term describing Princess Dolgorukaya, because it's very offensive. Also, if stating an opinion, you should say so, or if citing a source for the Princess' feelings, you should name it.

I hope you enjoy your time on our Forum!

Hi,
I think you were very wise - if you permit my judgement - dealing with this kind of «provocation». Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya was 12 when she met the Tzar and 16 when he declared his love. We can hardly assume she was the manipulator here, unless you believe in the «Lolita factor». Also to bear in mind, is the fact that the Tzar was, by the day's standards, almost as sacred as God himself. To obey his desires was always an honour. Katja did no different than any other girl would be asked to do (by her own family). In fact, she resisted for quite a long time before she became the Tzar's «official mistress». As to their love letters, they should be kept within the family, like we all like our own letters to be. But if they show anything, it is for sure a blind passion, very physical and turned into something «sacred» for both of them. Who are we to judge? It was a century where Royal divorces did not exist. So how could they have acted any differently, being in love and having sworn their love «before God»?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on March 24, 2009, 08:37:55 AM
Well actually, they could both have behaved very differently, given the fact that they were committing adultery and Alexander seduction, which went counter to everything which both must have been brought up to believe was the moral way to behave.  Dragging God into it was simply attempting to palliate the offense and make it all look much nicer by claiming that such an overwhelming passion had some sort of moral basis.  However, I agree the pressures on a young girl must have been immense and at the end of the day, Alexander was simply too powerful and at least in his office as Tsar, charismatic, for someone without a lot more character to resist.  It doesn't make either of them very likeable, but there's no evidence that Catherine was insincere in her love for Alexander.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 08, 2009, 11:37:02 AM
Who are we to judge? It was a century where Royal divorces did not exist. So how could they have acted any differently, being in love and having sworn their love «before God»?

But you judge, too, me thinks... positively.

In an era when (Royal) divorces did not (or barely) exist adultery is to be taken much more seriously. I think one can hardly imagine the cruel situation of Empress Maria. Her position was one of the most prestigious ones in Europe and descending from one of the most noble Royal Houses in Germany it must have been doubly upsetting for her to bear such treatment.
I cannot understand how a woman of or modern age can go with the Tsar - knowing the pressure women were obliged to bear.
Like her nieces Elisabeth and Alix she was a most noble and forgiving spirit. Respect..........
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ilyala on July 20, 2009, 07:10:17 AM
sorry to change the topic...

but i recently read an alexander ii biography which mentions that in 1881, before he was assassinated, he basically said that he would accept the constitution, crown katja and then retire and leave his son to reign.

does anyone else know about this?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on July 20, 2009, 07:27:00 AM
sorry to change the topic...

but i recently read an alexander ii biography which mentions that in 1881, before he was assassinated, he basically said that he would accept the constitution, crown katja and then retire and leave his son to reign.

does anyone else know about this?

That's only a rumour circulated those times and later. The constituon was really almost ready but crowning Ekaterina and retiring to somewhere are speculation. No any  reliable sources for such statement.

Did you read a Radzinsky's book? He is great in such exciting revelations, too much romantic.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 20, 2009, 08:17:22 AM
Did you read a Radzinsky's book? He is great in such exciting revelations, too much romantic.

I'm agree with you, I read the biography of Alexander II written by Radzinsky, but I don't like it at all since it's full of speculations, it was indeed the first and last book of Edward Radzinsky that I have included in my collection of books.

Unfortunately this is the only biography of Emperor Alexander II that I found here in Italy (I read it in English, since I haven't found and Italian version of it).
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ilyala on July 22, 2009, 02:00:25 PM
Actually the book is written by Hélène Carrère d'Encausse. It seems quite well written.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 23, 2009, 06:50:01 AM
"The next morning dawned bright and sunny. The Emperor, as usual, attended mass in the private chapel of the Winter Palace. His children were all there, save the wife of the Grand Duke Vladimir, who, being a Protestant at that time, did not attend the Greek services. It was noticed that when the Tsarevna came up to her iather-in-law to take leave of him after mass was over, he rudely thrust her aside with the words " Dites done adieu d la Princes se," and he indicated the Princess Yourievsky. The Heiress to the Throne made a profound curtsey to the Sovereign and silently withdrew, after merely bending her proud little head in the direction of Alexander II.'s morganatic wife."


Could anybody translate the French part?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on October 23, 2009, 07:10:06 AM
I think that is something like Say goodbye to the Princess, but I'm not sure...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Kalafrana on October 23, 2009, 07:57:12 AM
'That HIM abused his authority over Katya and had an affair with her is his failing, not hers.'

Dare I quote the old adage that it takes two to tango?

I would take the view that Alexander behaved very badly indeed in starting an affair with a very young girl of good family, who was ostensibly under his protection, and his behaviour in bringing her and her brood into the palace while his wife was dying was worse still. However, while I'm prepared to accept that we cannot really expect Ekaterina Dolgorukaya to have resisted her seduction, this affair was not a brief fling. It went on for 14 years and Ekaterina was not always 18.  Whether she really loved Alexander I'm not in a position to say, but we should not treat her as a victim - she was responsible for her own actions.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 25, 2009, 01:19:57 AM
"The next morning dawned bright and sunny. The Emperor, as usual, attended mass in the private chapel of the Winter Palace. His children were all there, save the wife of the Grand Duke Vladimir, who, being a Protestant at that time, did not attend the Greek services. It was noticed that when the Tsarevna came up to her iather-in-law to take leave of him after mass was over, he rudely thrust her aside with the words " Dites done adieu d la Princes se," and he indicated the Princess Yourievsky. The Heiress to the Throne made a profound curtsey to the Sovereign and silently withdrew, after merely bending her proud little head in the direction of Alexander II.'s morganatic wife."


Could anybody translate the French part?

"Dites adieu" means "say goodbye". Trying to keep this in context, I would translate this as "You should say goodbye to the Princess". Meaning, if she was taking her leave from the Emperor, it was rude of her to not also take her leave of Yurievskaya. Which, of course it was. Dagmar apparently thought a nod would do.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 25, 2009, 02:07:41 AM
Thank you! It must have felt humiliating to Dagmar...... She didn´t like Ekaterina did she?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on October 26, 2009, 07:50:20 AM
I don't think it was a case of dislike of Ekaterina herself, given that after Alexander II's death she behaved quite sensitively to her.   I think it was what Ekaterina represented - a former non-royal mistress (with all the Victorian horror of 'fallen' women that brought with it) being put into the place of a virtuous royal wife.  There must also have been great alarm at the thought that it was within the Tsar's power to create her Tsarina, and the more the Tsar insisted on her being acknowledged, the greater that alarm must have been.  When Alexander died and there was no question that Ekaterina had no power to push or be pushed into a higher position, Dagmar became gracious.  But as to being rude, no doubt Dagmar considered it was the Tsar who was rude in insisting on her bowing the head to an immoral woman.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Kalafrana on October 26, 2009, 08:01:34 AM
Countess Kate

I agree, and things were probably made worse by Aexander marrying the immoral woman with such indecent haste.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Vecchiolarry on October 26, 2009, 10:23:22 AM
Hi,

Well if the Tsar commands you to bow your head to anybody, then you do it - no questions asked...
You may not like it but you obey!!

Did Dagmar ever 'receive' Catherine?  Was she ever asked (commanded) to receive her?

Larry
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on October 26, 2009, 04:03:51 PM
I don't believe Dagmar was obliged to receive her formally; that would have implied that she (Dagmar) was in the higher position, whereas her suspicion was that Ekaterina was being gradually moved to the superior position where she would receive Dagmar.  "Here everything is going forward slowly but systematically" she wrote to her mother in 1881, about the situation "so we cannot calculate how things will be in six months; nothing would amaze me any longer, I assure you."  In the same letter she wrote about her sister-in-law Marie that "in my opinion she can no longer visit us here [because of Alexander's remarriage]; I consider it an impossibility, and she herself says so; how disconsolate she thus must be!" 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Vecchiolarry on October 26, 2009, 10:29:44 PM
Hi,

Yes, I agree with you about the positioning regarding who receives whom....  Very touchy protocol here...

They all really only needed to put up with this situation for a few months as Alexander II was assassinated 6 to 8 months after Maria Alexandrovna's death.
Even though it seems harsh to say it:  that event solved a rather sticky problem concerning 'her'...

Larry
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Kalafrana on October 27, 2009, 04:21:48 AM
'They all really only needed to put up with this situation for a few months as Alexander II was assassinated 6 to 8 months after Maria Alexandrovna's death.'

True, but nobody knew that at the time, despite all the the previous assassination attempts.

Protocol is indeed a touchy subject. One might go so far as to say that Archduke Franz Ferdinand was killed by protocol - he went to Sarajevo because he was able to go there as a General, not as an Archduke, and therefore Sophia would be treated as his equal.

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 27, 2009, 10:51:51 AM
Olga Alexandrovna had nothing but good things to say about her step grandmother. I tend to think then, that there was absolutely nothing personal in Dagmar's behavior toward Yurievskaya. Instead, there was a certain protocol regarding mistresses. Even if one was personally acquainted with a parent's (or father in law's) mistress, one did not publically acknowledge them out of respect for the wife and the legitimate children. Having been a part of this family for many years, Dagmar would have "sided" with the Empress and thus even with the marriage between Sasha and his mistress, would have been acustomed to not acknowledging Katya in public. She can scarcely be blamed for this and there is no reason to think she found Yurievskaya "immoral". Just competition for her MIL.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Student of History on October 29, 2009, 08:40:21 PM
Hello,
I have read with interest the postings on TAII and his second wife Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya.
I was just wondering why Tsar Alexander II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukova was considered morganatic when she was the daughter of Prince Michael Dolgoruky, who was of an established Ruirik dynastic family?
Many thanks in advance,
SOH
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 01, 2009, 01:33:15 AM
Hello,
I have read with interest the postings on TAII and his second wife Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya.
I was just wondering why Tsar Alexander II's marriage to Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukova was considered morganatic when she was the daughter of Prince Michael Dolgoruky, who was of an established Ruirik dynastic family?
Many thanks in advance,
SOH

To have an equal marriage, he would have had to marry the daughter of a reigning dynasty. The Dolgorukis, while of an older lineage, were of noble, not royal rank.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Student of History on November 01, 2009, 04:19:45 AM
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your response.  Following that logic, does that mean that Romanov's were by law unable to contract marriages with Russians?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 02, 2009, 12:32:04 AM
Hi Lisa,
Thank you for your response.  Following that logic, does that mean that Romanov's were by law unable to contract marriages with Russians?

Generally, yes, with some notable exceptions.

Romanovs could marry other Romanovs - such as Xenia Alexandrovna marrying Alexander Mikhailovich. Romanovs could marry cadet branches of their extended families - such as Olga Alexandrovna marrying Peter of Oldenburg. And, most controversially, Romanovs can apparently marry members of former ruling dynasties whose territories were taken over by the Empire - such as Vladmir Kirilovich approving his own marriage to Leonida Bragration. However, many disagree with the latter.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 10, 2009, 05:12:12 AM
According to "Once a Grand Duke", Maria did not really mind...

My mother turned her head away in plain disgust. My future mother-in-law, then the wife of the heir apparent, Grand Duke Alexander Alexandrovich, lowered her eyes. She would not have minded it so much for herself but she was thinking of her sister Alexandra married to the Prince of Wales. "What will old Queen Victoria say when she hears of this disgrace? . . .
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: TxKiev on November 11, 2009, 10:31:19 AM
I have just finished reading Russia Before the Crash, by Princess Stephanie Dolgorouky , who was married to a brother of Katya ---there are many interesting details in this book covering both the Romanovs and the Dolgorouky family ----highly enjoyable reading
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Student of History on November 11, 2009, 03:40:43 PM
Thanks Tx, sounds fascinating!  I've just had a look online to purchase, but seeing that it is $400 (amazon) maybe you wouldn't might sharing your top three points of of fact/fiction from the book with us, please?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 16, 2009, 07:54:48 PM
Thanks Tx, sounds fascinating!  I've just had a look online to purchase, but seeing that it is $400 (amazon) maybe you wouldn't might sharing your top three points of of fact/fiction from the book with us, please?

Hi - I just returned from the European Royal History Journal conference - had a great time - but wanted to tell you that Stephanie Dolgorouki's book is available through Euro History for $36 - I know because I bought one.

Also, does anyone have genealogical info on Yurievskaya's siblings? I got that she had four brothers and 1 sister - and the first names but very little else. Stephanie says she was the second wife of "Anatole", Yurievskaya's brother.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 16, 2009, 07:57:17 PM
was Stephanie the Italian sister-in-law? or this mordern times? sorry, a bit confused.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on November 17, 2009, 01:50:41 AM
was Stephanie the Italian sister-in-law? or this mordern times? sorry, a bit confused.

The Italian sister-in-law's name was Luisa. Earlier at this thread I had posted the photo of Ekaterina and Luisa together.



Also, does anyone have genealogical info on Yurievskaya's siblings? I got that she had four brothers and 1 sister - and the first names but very little else. Stephanie says she was the second wife of "Anatole", Yurievskaya's brother.

Hope this helps:
Mikhail Mikhailovitch Dolgorukiy (1816-1859) and his wife Vera Gavrilovna Vishnevskaya had 7 children:

Mikhail (1838-1902), married an Italian Countess, had a son Mikhail (born 1860)
Vasiliy (1840-1910), chamberlain, governor of Vitebsk, married to Sophia Ignatievna Shebeko (1838-1899), had a son Vasiliy
Nikolai, died in infancy
Anatoliy (1844-?) married Maria Yakovlevna Toutkevitch, his 1st wife I think
Sergei (1845-?)
Ekaterina (1847-1922)
Maria (1850-1907), married firstly Prince Emmanuel Mescherskiy (1832-77), who was killed at Shipka (Russian-Turkish War). Secondle she married Count Georg Berg. Maria is buried with her sister Ekaterina in France. Here's a photo of Maria's only daughter Leonilla (1871-1930):

http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2502722322 (http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2502722322)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 19, 2009, 05:40:37 PM
was Stephanie the Italian sister-in-law? or this mordern times? sorry, a bit confused.

The Italian sister-in-law's name was Luisa. Earlier at this thread I had posted the photo of Ekaterina and Luisa together.



Also, does anyone have genealogical info on Yurievskaya's siblings? I got that she had four brothers and 1 sister - and the first names but very little else. Stephanie says she was the second wife of "Anatole", Yurievskaya's brother.

Hope this helps:
Mikhail Mikhailovitch Dolgorukiy (1816-1859) and his wife Vera Gavrilovna Vishnevskaya had 7 children:

Mikhail (1838-1902), married an Italian Countess, had a son Mikhail (born 1860)
Vasiliy (1840-1910), chamberlain, governor of Vitebsk, married to Sophia Ignatievna Shebeko (1838-1899), had a son Vasiliy
Nikolai, died in infancy
Anatoliy (1844-?) married Maria Yakovlevna Toutkevitch, his 1st wife I think
Sergei (1845-?)
Ekaterina (1847-1922)
Maria (1850-1907), married firstly Prince Emmanuel Mescherskiy (1832-77), who was killed at Shipka (Russian-Turkish War). Secondle she married Count Georg Berg. Maria is buried with her sister Ekaterina in France. Here's a photo of Maria's only daughter Leonilla (1871-1930):

http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2502722322 (http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2502722322)

Thanks! So there was a brother named Anatoly. His second wife was the Stephanie who wrote the book. She mentions her husband and herself looking after Princess Yurievskaya in her final years.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Belochka on November 19, 2009, 06:10:04 PM

In what year did Stephanie Dolgorukaya originally publish her memoirs?

Margarita
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 19, 2009, 08:18:08 PM
No idea. The edition I bought was a Royalty Digest reprint. My guess would be late 1920's as the earliest.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on February 08, 2010, 12:02:02 AM
Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya in the 1870s


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/45.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 08, 2010, 03:50:44 AM
That has to be the most flattering picture of her I´ve seen so far.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on February 08, 2010, 04:03:01 AM
That is really her? She looked quite different in comparison to her other fotos... :-\
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on February 08, 2010, 04:42:46 AM
That is really her? She looked quite different in comparison to her other fotos... :-\

Yes, I had some doubts at first. But it's her, the photo is from the private archive of her which is being preserved at Nizza.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on February 08, 2010, 08:09:06 AM
Not a beauty if you take this foto...but maybe a very charming lady which is not seen on fotos...thats a pity ;)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 08, 2010, 08:53:27 AM
Wow! she looks so different. (and dark, since mostly of the pictures i ve seen of her she looks blonde with light colored eyes...)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on February 09, 2010, 08:50:45 AM
Does anybody know something about her feelings after Alexanders dead, leaving Russia and alone in Nice? Are there any sources, letters, diaries?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on February 09, 2010, 09:29:40 AM
Does anybody know something about her feelings after Alexanders dead, leaving Russia and alone in Nice? Are there any sources, letters, diaries?

She was absolutely ruined after Alexander's death, the life stopped for her in March 1881. She left Russia and lived for her children, treasuring the memory of Alexander. Ekaterina collected many things of the Emperor (including his childhood memorabilia - letters,diaries,schoolbooks, uniforms as well as his singlet which was on him when he was dying) and preserved them as relics. Every year in March 1 she  ordered a year-mind for Alexander at a local Orthodox Cathedral (which had been built by the way on the place of the destroyed villa where Tsarevitch Nicholas, eldest son of Alexander II, had died in 1865) and those year-minds gathered all Orthodox people in Nizza where Ekaterina was very well-khown and respected.

After her death most of her "Alexander" collection scattered around the world (especially correspondence) but some relics were and are being preserved at the same Orthodox cathedral.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on June 02, 2010, 09:35:12 AM
Reminds me of a fotograf of her mother...same expression. Thanks for this pic!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on July 03, 2010, 02:36:03 AM
Is there any known correspondance from any of Alexander II's children reguarding their father's relationship with Catherine??

I seem to remember reading somewhere GD Serge tried to keep the affair a secret from his younger brother Paul, but I can't recall the source. 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2010, 12:32:20 AM
Is there any known correspondance from any of Alexander II's children reguarding their father's relationship with Catherine??

I seem to remember reading somewhere GD Serge tried to keep the affair a secret from his younger brother Paul, but I can't recall the source. 

Yes, Sergei tried to keep Pavel away from any rumours about Alexander II and Ekaterina, this he mentions in his correspondence to a tutor I think.

I think the children from Alexander II's first marriage never mentioned in their correspondence their father's adultery with Dolgoroukaya while Alexander II was alive. After his death they began to mention the Princess, but now I can't remember who and what exactly - more likely Alexander III and Sergei.
They even didn't speak to each other about his father adultery while he was alive, so they knew everything and saw everything but kept silence. GD Sergei in his early diary only once let himself an emotion because of the Princess who dared to congratulate him with his birthday. He was furious.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on July 05, 2010, 08:16:28 AM
I quoted in an earlier post, that in 1881, Dagmar wrote to her mother that her sister-in-law Marie "in my opinion...can no longer visit us here [because of Alexander's remarriage]; I consider it an impossibility, and she herself says so; how disconsolate she thus must be!"  Whether they exchanged this view via correspondence, or whether Dagmar had seen Marie outside Russia, I don't know, but clearly the two of them must have discussed the situation in some form.  It must have been very difficult for Alexander's children to maintain silence in such a situation, so fraught with potential disloyalty either to their sovereign or to their mother.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on July 05, 2010, 10:47:48 AM
Alexej was the only child of Alexander II who could handle with the relationship and with the princess.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: CountessKate on July 05, 2010, 11:19:18 AM
Alexej was the only child of Alexander II who could handle with the relationship and with the princess.

That is interesting GD Valeria - I assume you mean he showed he approved in some way? 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on July 05, 2010, 11:51:20 AM
Thanks Svetabel. I wish I could read GD Sergei's diaries, they seem to contain interesting pieces of information.

GD Alexei did correspond with Catherine. I remember reading a letter he wrote to her reguarding her son's poor performance in the Navy.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on July 05, 2010, 11:56:28 AM
Yes, he respected the new love of his father in comparison the his siblings who got all excited over the relationship. I don't know if he was just more mature or had a closer relationship to his father than to his mother (in comparison to Alexander III)..
What did Maria Alexandrovna think about the Ekaterina?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: ashanti01 on July 05, 2010, 01:21:46 PM
If I remember correctly, Maria Alexandrovna was so upset by her father's marriage she refused to speak to him. Of course I doubt she would have been happy with the situation before the marriage, seeing how close she was to both her mother and father.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2010, 11:19:08 PM
If I remember correctly, Maria Alexandrovna was so upset by her father's marriage she refused to speak to him. Of course I doubt she would have been happy with the situation before the marriage, seeing how close she was to both her mother and father.

Yes, she refused to speak to father after an awful home scandal with him.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: susana on July 11, 2010, 01:08:21 AM
From what I have read the Empress continued to love her husband and after Katya and her children moved into the Winter Palace had the children brought to her so she could meet them. AII remained attentive to his wife throughout--and no doubt they continued to care for each other but she was quite ill and travelled with her two younger sons for her health--so unable to fulfill her role as a wife and Empress she was accepting of her husband's situation and happiness. A very generous-spirited woman.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 11, 2010, 06:05:39 PM
From what I have read the Empress continued to love her husband and after Katya and her children moved into the Winter Palace had the children brought to her so she could meet them. AII remained attentive to his wife throughout--and no doubt they continued to care for each other but she was quite ill and travelled with her two younger sons for her health--so unable to fulfill her role as a wife and Empress she was accepting of her husband's situation and happiness. A very generous-spirited woman.

Their marriage had slowly broken down over time. The death knell was the death of their son, Nixa. Yes, the Empress was all you say, but she still died alone - so that generousity was likely not returned.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 14, 2010, 03:33:48 PM
Ekaterina

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7254/6392092.jpg) (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/6392092.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 14, 2010, 04:44:08 PM
Wonderful pic , thanks for posting. It is from the same session as her famous pic is, isn't it?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Olgasha on September 10, 2010, 08:01:29 AM
Katierina
(http://www.zakharov.ru/components/com_books/images/books/aleksandr_ii99/foto-yurevskaya-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 01, 2010, 02:41:43 PM
thanks for the correction!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on December 28, 2010, 02:19:21 AM
Ekaterina

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7254/6392092.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7254/6392092.jpg)

 

From the same session with a handwriting

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110018_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110018_0001-1.html)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: mishaxenia on March 05, 2011, 02:54:00 PM
?? identified like Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
(http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/38673/2308463450105221653S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2308463450105221653jTOapO)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 05, 2011, 05:03:45 PM
Mislabeled image indeed. That s not Ekaterina.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 15, 2011, 09:59:13 AM
Ekaterina

(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9092/5385ce6861e6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/808/5385ce6861e6.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Veronica on June 15, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
Their son George (1872-1913)

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7352/copiadegeorgyyurievsky1.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Kalafrana on June 16, 2011, 04:21:28 AM
I note that George died at 41. What happened to him?

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on August 09, 2011, 04:22:12 AM
A recent add in the on-line Archive. Photoalbum of Ekaterina.

http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2514155643 (http://photoarchive.spb.ru:9090/www/showChildObjects.do?object=2514155643)

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Veronica on August 09, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
Thank you for the link!

I just hate the watermark in the middle of her face...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Marc on August 09, 2011, 11:05:17 PM
Thank you for the link!

I just hate the watermark in the middle of her face...

Great find,but truly awful to see watermark basically destroying such lovely photos :-(
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on August 09, 2011, 11:52:11 PM
Thank you for the link!

I just hate the watermark in the middle of her face...

Great find,but truly awful to see watermark basically destroying such lovely photos :-(

Yes, the Archive has been changing its watermarks for 3 years and now stopped at those  narrow lines just across the faces or interesting details in the photos. They have an unique collection of photos and don't want to sell it cheap...I remember I bought 3 copies of some photos from them and it was VERY pricey...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 12, 2012, 09:11:24 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/i_88583.jpg)
Alexander and Ekaterina's daughter Olga

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/i_046.jpg)
Ekaterina's passport (?)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: katmaxoz on April 07, 2012, 07:48:33 PM
Princess Catherine drawn in 1862 by Tsar Alexander II.  The image is risque to say the least so don't click on it if nudity offends.

http://i42.tinypic.com/34xgq6h.jpg


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on April 08, 2012, 02:21:16 AM
Princess Catherine drawn in 1862 by Tsar Alexander II.  The image is risque to say the least so don't click on it if nudity offends.

http://i42.tinypic.com/34xgq6h.jpg




Happy Easter...

To think that a few meters beneath the Empress would cough her lungs out...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Svetabel on April 08, 2012, 06:52:21 AM
Princess Catherine drawn in 1862 by Tsar Alexander II.  The image is risque to say the least so don't click on it if nudity offends.

http://i42.tinypic.com/34xgq6h.jpg




In 1862 he couldn't draw her )). Their affair began later.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: katmaxoz on April 08, 2012, 04:16:33 PM
Princess Catherine drawn in 1862 by Tsar Alexander II.  The image is risque to say the least so don't click on it if nudity offends.

http://i42.tinypic.com/34xgq6h.jpg




In 1862 he couldn't draw her )). Their affair began later.

Typo, sorry. I just re-checked this and the date should have been 1869 on the  image.

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 16, 2012, 12:56:58 PM
Modern painting based of a photo of Pss Dolgoroukaya
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/DarlingSissi/PssDolgorukiy.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 24, 2012, 12:15:46 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/003_zps33bdda50.jpg)
Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya's children, around 1884
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: katmaxoz on September 27, 2012, 04:57:50 PM
another photo of Ekaterina for the collection

(http://i49.tinypic.com/ngrfa0.jpg)


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 25, 2014, 01:37:20 PM
Princess Catherine drawn in 1862 by Tsar Alexander II.  The image is risque to say the least so don't click on it if nudity offends.

http://i42.tinypic.com/34xgq6h.jpg




Kathy, the link is not working any more. Do you think you could post the image again?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 26, 2014, 03:19:54 PM
Perhaps my most favourite photo of Ekaterina

(http://37.media.tumblr.com/e623434e115219e70505e6c0b56c9212/tumblr_n7opvbn19d1rh07xwo1_1280.png)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Maria Sisi on July 15, 2014, 02:36:59 PM
I was reading Ian Vorres biography on Olga Aexandrovna and she mentions Ekaterina having a house not far from hers and that she would privately visit her. She pretty much said Ekaterina lived in the past, talked of nothing but Alexander II and that her house was filled with relics of the past.

I thought after the assassination she moved to France and didn't know she had a residence in St. Petersburg. I found that pretty strange since I imagine it would have been pretty awkward. Are there any photos of Ekaterina post 1881 and in old age?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 15, 2014, 05:10:10 PM
Im pretty sure this has been posted before here...somewhere.

(http://i.imgur.com/yMny1ap.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Maria Sisi on July 15, 2014, 06:40:01 PM
I've never seen that photo before, thanks Carolath!

She looks very stern. I've never considered her a great beauty or anything although there are a few photos of her that do make her look pretty. To be honest and a little shallow I think it was her nose, its what stands out in many of her pictures. Photographing almost at a profile most of the time didn't help her  :-[
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: GDNastya on October 05, 2014, 03:11:40 PM
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r174/GDNastya/II32TBWOQXA.jpg) (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/GDNastya/media/II32TBWOQXA.jpg.html)

Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Maria Sisi on January 02, 2015, 11:20:09 AM
Catherine with children Olga and George 1880
(http://upyourpic.org/images/201312/tqslmi7q8h.jpg)
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/lidiasmirnova/post335842397/
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Ally Kumari on September 17, 2017, 01:18:06 AM
Sensational rediscovery of a Russian imperial portrait
http://auktionsverket.com/news/sensational-rediscovery-russian-imperial-portrait/

Stockholms Auktionsverk has been commissioned to sell Konstantin Makovsky's magnificent portrait of Her Serene Highness Princess Yuryevskaya - the second, morganatic wife of Russian Emperor Alexander II.

The portrait depicts Catherine Dolgorukova (1847-1922), from 1880 – her Imperial Highness Princess Yuryevskaya, the second, morganatic, wife of  Russian Emperor Alexander II. Their marriage did not last long, just one year because of the tragic premature death of the emperor. The first acquaintance with Catherine, when she was still a young girl, took place in 1859, when Alexander II stayed with Prince Dolgorukov on the estate of Teplovka near Poltava, during military exercises organized on the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Poltava. Soon afterwards Catherine's father was financially ruined, and the emperor took the children into his care: four brothers and two sisters. The girls were sent to the Smolny Institute. On Palm Sunday in 1865, Alexander II, when visiting the Smolny Institute, was presented to the seventeen-year-old Ekaterina Dolgorukova, whom he remembered. He immediately fell under the charm of the young girl. They began to meet secretly, and soon Catherine became the Emperor's favorite. At that time, the Empress Maria Alexandrovna was already sick with consumption and bed-ridden. The liaison between the emperor and Catherine Dolgorukova caused great displeasure to many of the Romanov family and, above all, to the Tsarevich, the future emperor Alexander III. But their attachment of was  strong, sincere, mutual and stood the test of time. Even before their marriage, Ekaterina gave birth to four children to the Emperor: George (1872-1913), Olga (1873-1925), Boris (1876, died in infancy), and Catherine (1878-1959). After the death of Empress Maria Alexandrovna on May 22, 1880, and before the expiration of the period of mourning, on July 6, 1880, in the military chapel of the Tsarskoye Selo palace, the marriage of Alexander II and Catherine Dolgorukova took place, and in December she was granted the title of Princess Yuryevskaya, which was related to one of the family names of the boyar Romanovs. The children, legitimised retrospectively, also received the surname Yurievsky.

Konstantin Egorovich Makovsky - the last great Russian painter of Russia, "the artistic ceremony master," as he was called by contemporaries, painted many portraits of the emperor and of his family members. It was not for nothing that Alexander II called him "my artist". Konstantin Makovsky had the opportunity to personally communicate with the emperor, who repeatedly posed for him. Sergei Makovsky writes about this in great detail; one of the chapters of the memoirs "Father and My Childhood" is called "Portraits of Alexander II".

As Sergei Makovsky recalled, at the beginning of summer of 1880, the young Imperial couple retired to the Livadia Palace in the Crimea. Work immediately began on three portraits: that of the emperor, of his young wife, and of their children: George, Olga and Catherine. The atmosphere in which these works were created was the warmest. Sergei Makovsky recalls: "In the Livadia atmosphere, he (the emperor – E.N.) impressed everyone by his simplicity and cordiality. As the portraits of his wife, son and daughters were being painted, he attended all the sessions, gave cautious advice, joked, affectionately scolded the naughty Gogu, and as a parting gift gave his father (K.E. Makovsky-E.N) candy and flowers to his "beautiful wife" (Yu.P. Makovsky-EN) ".

Begun in Livadia, the portraits were finished in Petersburg. As Sergei Makovsky reported: "The sessions were interrupted by the Tsar's departure with his family to St. Petersburg, and the portraits were finished later. My father succeeded at once with the faces and heads of the Emperor and Princess Yuryevskaya; the bodies were added later, posed by models. Moreover, in St. Petersburg, before his death, the sovereign repeatedly posed for his father, and the children were also brought to my father's studio later, when the effects of the (assassination) of March 1 had quietened down " The location of the original portrait of Alexander II (with his dog, Milord,  sitting at his feet) is unknown, but several copies were made by the artist and one of these is kept in the State Tretyakov Gallery. "Portrait of the Children of the Her Imperial Highness Princess Yu." Was published in 1915 in the journal "Niva" (No. 42, p. 770); now it is in a private collection. But the portrait of the princess Yuryevskaya disappeared from the view of specialists for a long time.

To establish the identity of the model presented here  we were helpednot not only by the lady's resemblance to the famous photographs of the Princess, who was blue-eyed and dark-haired, had thin lips, a rounded chin and a characteristic nose shape, but other arguments alos. First of all, the date on the image - 1880, as we recall from the memoirs of the painter's son, was precisely when the work on the entire series was carried out. Sergei Makovsky mentions the blue hood of Princess Yuryevskaya, in which she posed for the artist, which coincides with the color of the clothes depicted. It is also significant that the dimensions of this portrait (190x107 cm) are close to the size of the portrait of children (191x111 cm). The  accessories in the two portraits also form a single ensemble; the basket with flowers in the lower left corner at the feet of children finds a response in a vase with flowers on the right above the head of the Princess.

The portrait of Princess Yuryevskaya was shown at the XX11 exhibition of the St. Petersburg Society of Artists in 1913, as indicated in the exhibition catalog, after which all traces of it were lost for a long time; now we can again appreciate this exceptional work by the outstanding artist.

The painting is to be sold at Stockholms Auktionsverk
Fine Art & Antiques Auction in Stockholm, Sweden, 13 December 2017.

(http://auktionsverket.com/uploads/cache/80/ae/80ae35c0e53c28221c95983a597b3381.jpg)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Превед on September 17, 2017, 05:31:40 AM
Sensational rediscovery of a Russian imperial portrait
http://auktionsverket.com/news/sensational-rediscovery-russian-imperial-portrait/

Stockholms Auktionsverk has been commissioned to sell Konstantin Makovsky's magnificent portrait of Her Serene Highness Princess Yuryevskaya - the second, morganatic wife of Russian Emperor Alexander II.

The portrait depicts Catherine Dolgorukova (1847-1922), from 1880 – her Imperial Highness Princess Yuryevskaya, the second, morganatic, wife of  Russian Emperor Alexander II.


Lol, one could think this description was written by Norwegians! I thought the Swedes were a bit more fussy about the finer titular nuances.

The portrait strikes me as almost indecently private. She looks fluttered and like she just has thrown on a crumpled dress after a romp in bed with her old lover. Shockingly morganatic indeed!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Maria Sisi on September 17, 2017, 07:22:34 PM
Lol, one could think this description was written by Norwegians! I thought the Swedes were a bit more fussy about the finer titular nuances.

The portrait strikes me as almost indecently private. She looks fluttered and like she just has thrown on a crumpled dress after a romp in bed with her old lover. Shockingly morganatic indeed!

Her ankle appears to be on full display on a soft stool cushion as well!!!!

according to the description below:
Quote
s Sergei Makovsky recalled, at the beginning of summer of 1880, the young Imperial couple retired to the Livadia Palace in the Crimea. Work immediately began on three portraits: that of the emperor, of his young wife, and of their children: George, Olga and Catherine. The atmosphere in which these works were created was the warmest. Sergei Makovsky recalls: "In the Livadia atmosphere, he (the emperor – E.N.) impressed everyone by his simplicity and cordiality. As the portraits of his wife, son and daughters were being painted, he attended all the sessions, gave cautious advice, joked, affectionately scolded the naughty Gogu, and as a parting gift gave his father (K.E. Makovsky-E.N) candy and flowers to his "beautiful wife" (Yu.P. Makovsky-EN) ".

Empress Maria Alexandrovna died on June 3, 1880!!!!! I knew his behavior after her death was disgusting but still the more you hear about it the more upset one gets. And Alexander had the nerve to be upset with the rest of his family and their behavior, ugh
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Kalafrana on September 18, 2017, 04:22:07 AM
I agree entirely.

Just for starters, Ekaterina's father made Alexander her guardian in the expectation that he would look after her, not seduce her!

Ann
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander and Princess Ekaterina Dolgoroukaya
Post by: Превед on September 18, 2017, 09:16:13 AM
Her ankle appears to be on full display on a soft stool cushion as well!!!!

Indeed!!!
*Fanning oneself*