Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Rulers Prior to Nicholas II => Topic started by: bluetoria on February 12, 2005, 12:18:48 PM

Title: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 12, 2005, 12:18:48 PM
On every family tree the date of Alexander I's death is 1825 but according to a book by Lord Longford, he:
"...visited Father [i.e. St.] Seraphim in 1825. It is an historical fact that Alexander soon afterwards vacated the throne and lived in Siberia until 1864 under the name of Staretz Fedor Kuzmitch."

Could anyone tell me more aboutthis, please...or if it's been discussed before, point me in the right direction?
Thank you in anticipation :)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 12, 2005, 01:13:52 PM
There is a fascinating legend that Alexander I faked his own death and "retired" from life under another name.
At one point a man named Fedor Kuzmich appeared in Tomsk and local residents suspected that this might well be Tsar Alexander himself. In 1864 Kuzmich was lying on his death bed, his last words being, "God only knows my real name!"
Allegendly, in 1865, Tsar Nicholas attempted to quell the rumors about his brother and had his casket opened. Rumors soon spread about the casket being empty. Then in 1926, over one hundred years after Alexander's death his casket was opened again and was officially declared empty. To this day, supposedly no one really knows where he lays buried.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 13, 2005, 06:12:16 AM
Thank you, Helen, for that information. So it's still all quite a mystery!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on February 15, 2005, 09:41:32 AM
Is is also said that the wife of Alexandr - Tsarina Ekuzaveta went after him to Siberia.
Nobody knows if it is right or rong.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 09:56:42 AM
That's very interesting hikaru, I hadn't heard that. Do you know in what year is she 'supposed' to have died?
It would be interesting to find out more but I suppose it's one of those mysteries that you never get to the bottom of.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on February 15, 2005, 10:51:26 AM
Oh, It is quite long story.
Alexandr died unexpectedly in Taganrog ( the house is still their) on November 1825. He was buried only in March 1826 in St.Petersburg  in closed coffin.
His wife Elizaveta Alexeevna (nee Luiza of Baden Baden)
died misteriously at the beginning of the 1826 year on the her way back from Taganrog (near Azov sea)
to the Sankt Petersburg.Maybe she died, Maybe she went to Siberia and lived with husband, maybe she went to Tikhvin Monastery near Petersburg.
Grand Duke Nikolay Mikhaylovich Romanov , faymouse
historian , was trying to clarify this mistery but in vain.
But he proved that the handwriting of Alexandr and Fyodor Kuzymich was different.
Leo Tolstoy wrote in a novel about the Fyodor Kuzymich,
he was sure that he is Alexandr .


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 10:54:02 AM
Thank you, Hikaru :)
Do you know the name of the Tolstoy novel so I can read it, please?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on February 15, 2005, 11:52:58 AM
The name of Tolstoy ' s novel: "Posmertnye zapisky
startsa Phyodora Kuzymicha" (After dead notes of the
oldman Phyodor Kyzymich) .
This novel was prohibited in Tsarist Russia.
The tomb of the Fyodor Kuzymich in the Tomsk Alexeev Monastery.
In 1988 he was proclaimed as the Saint by the Russian Orthodox Churche.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: kmerov on February 15, 2005, 12:28:19 PM
It all sounds very strange. I meen an emperors death would generate some kind of attention from people around him. If he faked his death some people must have been involved, and lying to a lot of people. But quit a mystery with the empty grave..
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on February 15, 2005, 01:22:54 PM
Some said that the body was changed with the dead body of a soldier similar to the Emperor.
Besides, he died in Taganrog - there were not so many people around him.
He was just ill, catched a cold, nobody thought that he would die.

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 04:06:53 PM
It's fascinating! What about his wife, though? If she followed him, was someone buried in her place, too?

(Thanks for the book information, too, Hikaru - I'll have to see if I can find it in translation :))
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Georgiy on February 15, 2005, 04:26:30 PM
Bluetoria,
There is a book in English about this, called, I think "Imperial Mystery". I can't remember who wrote it though. I think there is a thread about it in the book section.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on February 15, 2005, 04:33:16 PM
Thanks a lot, Georgiy - I'll see if I can find it!  :)
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: strom on February 17, 2005, 06:17:16 PM
I heard that when the tomb of Alx.I was opened they found only boulders!  Thank you Hikaru for the note on the canonization of St. Kuzemich.  There is something here very close to the history of the Alexander palace.  
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 01, 2005, 08:51:54 AM
Quote
Some said that the body was changed with the dead body of a soldier similar to the Emperor.


But then why was the grave empty when they opened it?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 01, 2005, 09:04:46 AM
No one has confirmed that the grave was empty.  The Soviets were the last to do that, open it, and  did not make any comment on it.
I was told recently that when enough funds are gathered, the grave will be opend and studied properly. When is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on March 01, 2005, 02:23:15 PM
It is said  by the eyewintesses that it was empty when after the revolution all of coffins were opened in order to find valuable things.
Of course such deal was not documentally confirmed.
There are not so much documents dated 1917 and 1918th years.They had no time and no wish to leave documents.

There is also the version that Alexandr II secretely ordered to put the body into the coffin.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Belochka on March 02, 2005, 04:51:35 AM
Quote
It is said  by the eyewintesses that it was empty when after the revolution all of coffins were opened in order to find valuable things.
Of course such deal was not documentally confirmed.


Actually such things were indeed documented.

According to Dziewanowski's book Alexander I Russia's mysterious Tsar the author noted that Dzerzhinsky and Stalin discussed the opening of the crypts, specifically to remove any jewelry to sell for much needed hard currency in March 1924.

With Stalin's encouragement Dzerzhinsky returned two weeks later to report that all the Romanov graves were searched. The women had the more valuable items than did the males. The males provided rings and military decorations suitable for museums only.

"As to the grave of Alexander I, it was most disappointing. His casket was empty."

Should the word "empty" be interpreted as empty of jewelry or was the casket vacant?  ;)

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 02, 2005, 10:00:59 AM
That would certainly be my take on it. But like all things Romanov, the mystery will remain unsolved for some, even if a corpse is eventually found, dna-ed and reburried with full pomp and ceremony.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2005, 08:07:29 AM
Bluetoria, I found a couple of contemporary images about this subject you may be interested to see, in a Russian book I own.

Depiction of the death of Alexander I, and the house where Alexander died:
(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/623/deathofalexander9uz.png)(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/479/house4vs.png)

Fedor Kuzmich, and "izba" (peasant house) where Fedor Kuzmich lived:

(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/2415/feodorkuzmich4wg.png)(http://img35.exs.cx/img35/4299/izba9xt.png)


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: bluetoria on March 03, 2005, 08:23:01 AM
Thank you, Helen  :)
More & more, reading these posts & looking at the pictures, I am convinced that the story of him going to live as a hermit is true - whether or not he was actually Fedor Kuzmich.  
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on March 05, 2005, 08:39:38 AM
GD Nikolay Mikhaylovich was trying to resolve this mistery and he thought that the Fyoudor Kuzymich was not the Alexandr because :
1. The signature and writing way of Fyodor Kuzymich was different from Alexandr's ones.
2. Alexandr could no live in poor and severe conditions .
It was opposite to his nature. He was not patient.
3. He could no do it alone or only with his wife.
Somebody else should be involved.
But somebody else was not found.

GD wrote very interesting book "Emperor Alexandr" about the destiny of Alexandr and about his death.

Anyway, the mystery of Alexandr death is still the mistery


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Belochka on March 05, 2005, 08:42:10 PM
I believe that this mystery will be laid to rest one day.

Funding will become available to open the crypt designated to Alexander I, and then scientifically assessed to determine the authenticity of any remains.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 06, 2005, 03:19:09 PM
Quote
GD wrote very interesting book "Emperor Alexandr" about the destiny of Alexandr and about his death.


Hikaru, do you know where I can buy this book?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on March 07, 2005, 10:18:47 AM
I have the book  printed in Moscow in 1999.
In this book there is only the part written by Nikolay Mikhaylovich.
There are no letters and documents which was in the  pre-revolution period book of Nikolay Mikhaylovich .
Maybe you could find it in the old book store.

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Finelly on June 18, 2005, 12:13:38 AM
I think the best researched source of info on this topic is a book called "Imperial Legend:  The Disappearance of Czar Alexander I", by Alexis Troubetzkoy.  Although we won't know for sure until DNA testing is done (if ever), there is ample evidence that the Czar planned his own disappearance and that his brother Nicholas knew and helped to keep his cover.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: kenmore3233 on August 03, 2005, 11:32:33 PM
Quote
There is a fascinating legend that Alexander I faked his own death and "retired" from life under another name.
At one point a man named Fedor Kuzmich appeared in Tomsk and local residents suspected that this might well be Tsar Alexander himself. In 1864 Kuzmich was lying on his death bed, his last words being, "God only knows my real name!"
Allegendly, in 1865, Tsar Nicholas attempted to quell the rumors about his brother and had his casket opened. Rumors soon spread about the casket being empty. Then in 1926, over one hundred years after Alexander's death his casket was opened again and was officially declared empty. To this day, supposedly no one really knows where he lays buried.



I would forget about the Soviet government's announcement in 1926. It was almost certainly disinformation, one of many such lies intended to discredit Russia's former rulers by making them seem like fools, tyrants, or bizarre individuals of one sort or another.

The Soviet's 1926 statement about Alexander's coffin has never been backed up by any kind of evidence.

I don't think that professional historians anywhere give any credence to the empty coffin story. It was communist proganda, plain and simple.

As for the Kuzmich story, it is true that such a peasant lived in Siberia in the mid-1800s. He was remarkable for knowing things about the Russian imperial court that a simple peasant wouldn't be expected to know. Still, knowledgable people who interviewed Kuzmich came away convinced that he was an ignorant peasant and nothing more.

The documentation and eyewitness accounts surrounding Alexander's death in Taganrog in 1825 are very credible. You can rest assured that Alexander died there, just as historians say.

Alexander died of an illness that was either malaria or something akin malaria. The disease was rampant in the Taganrog area at the time.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: kenmore3233 on August 03, 2005, 11:33:19 PM
Quote
I think the best researched source of info on this topic is a book called "Imperial Legend:  The Disappearance of Czar Alexander I", by Alexis Troubetzkoy.  Although we won't know for sure until DNA testing is done (if ever), there is ample evidence that the Czar planned his own disappearance and that his brother Nicholas knew and helped to keep his cover.



Sorry, but there is no such evidence. It is just rumor, and nothing more.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on August 06, 2005, 01:42:09 PM
I'm not sure that your right about that.  The tombs were opened in the 20's by the Soviet's searching for jewels to sell.  A couple of respectable author's have now said that his Tomb was empty - I guess we won't know for sure until it is opened again - but what proof do you have that these author's are wrong?

dca
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: kenmore3233 on August 07, 2005, 10:47:17 PM
Quote
I'm not sure that your right about that.  The tombs were opened in the 20's by the Soviet's searching for jewels to sell.  A couple of respectable author's have now said that his Tomb was empty - I guess we won't know for sure until it is opened again - but what proof do you have that these author's are wrong?

dca


Who are the "respectable authors" who say that the tomb was empty? As far as I know, no competent professional historians believe the empty tomb story.

You have to take into consideration the credibility of the authors of the story: the Bolsheviks of the 1920s.

It is well known that the Bolsheviks lied about many, many things in order to mislead the Russian public. The Bolsheviks at the time were trying to discredit the tsars: hence the bizarre story about the empty tomb.

As for Bolsheviks looking for jewels to sell...I have never heard that any other Romanov tombs were opened or ransacked.

Alexander's death at Taganrog in 1825 is very well documented. There were many witnesses to his death, including well known and respected men of government, and medical authorities.

All of these very credible people could not possibly have conspired to fake Alexander's death.

There is no credibility to the Bolshevik empty tomb story. Period.


Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on March 28, 2006, 01:20:18 PM
Hello!

Does anybody ever heard about Feodor Kuzmitch?

In 1836, 11 years after the death of Alexander I., one old, strange man, was arrested in Perm. He said, that his name is Feodor Kuzmitch and he is coming back from Saint Land. The policemen were surprised from his noble style. He was very religious, and everybody wanted to talk with him. When bishop from Irkutsk met him, he was very imressed by him. Feodor was talking by many languages, he knows so many details about politician affairs, and some important persons in country. He also know so many specialities about war in 1812, and Alexander´s arrival to Paris.
One day, one soldier said to Feodor, that he (Feodor) is Alexander. Feodor quickly said: "I´m only vagrant..."
It´s true, that evidences of people, who saw Alexander´s death, were false. Autopsy report was signed by the doctors, who weren´t in Taganrog.
And, when the Alexander´s dead body was in Taganarog´s cathedral, everybody was surprised: his face was not similar to Alexander´s face...
After 40 years (because some people believed, that Feodor was Alexander) his nephew Alexander III. opened the Alexander I.´s coffin and... IT WAS EMPTY...

Please, send me your opinion: what do you think, was Alexander really Feodor, or he died in Taganrog?
                                  Thank you very much for your opinions!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 28, 2006, 01:53:30 PM
The book IMPERIAL LEGEND by Troubetzkoy explores this myth rather well.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: David_Pritchard on March 28, 2006, 02:06:36 PM
[size=14]Ma chère Mlle. Gabrielle,

I find the circumstances of the death and the handling of the body of Emperor Aleksander I Pavlovich to be most unusual and suspicious. It is possible that this event would not seem so odd to historians if it were not followed by more peculiar events such as the refusal of Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich to take the Imperial Throne, the 1825 Dekabristi plot and the armed mutiny of some of the Imperial Guards regiments against Emperor Nikolai I Pavlovich.

There are a few books that I would recommend to you for further reading: Alexander of Russia, Napoleon’s Conqueror by Henri Troyat; Alexander I: Russia’s Mysterious Tsar by M.K. Dziewanowski; Imperial Legend, the Mysterious Disappearance of Alexander I by Alexis Troubetzkoy.

Amities et à bientôt, j’espère,

David[/size]
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Fay on March 29, 2006, 08:08:21 AM
Gee, I just hope I'll be able to find at least one of those books, because the story of FK fascinates me! And yes, I believe that he didn't die in Taganrog. Such death would be... so unlike him! ;D
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on March 29, 2006, 12:07:21 PM
Thanks a lot for your opinions!

There is a strange report of Alexander´s death (autopsy report was probably false, the doctors, who signed it, weren´t been in Taganrog on that day, and its results are very strange): officially he died for a impaludism, there wasn´t some information about spleen hypertrophy, what is a real mark of impaludism. There is only some information about scare on a right leg, but Alexander was suffered by a pain on a left leg. And there was wrote about a defect of the brain because of syphilis, but Alexander never had a syphilis...
It´s so strange, don´t you think so?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: hikaru on March 29, 2006, 11:54:43 PM
We had discussion on this matter actually, somewhere in this thread.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Svetabel on March 30, 2006, 12:00:11 AM
The question about Alexander's death is one of the favourites among the Russian historians. :) It seems we never know the truth what was really happenned in Taganrog. :(
According to the diaries of Empress Elizaveta Alexeyevna, Alexander's spouse, he was indeed very ill last days of his life. The Empress in detail describes the condition of his health and it seems that Alexander was in a very weak state due to the hay fever, he looked exhausted. And what is more the medical treatment was unequal to the occasion. :(
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Fay on March 31, 2006, 10:03:53 AM
Medical treatment? What kind of medical treatment?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on March 31, 2006, 01:01:02 PM
But... there is one question: If Feodor Kuzmitch wasn´t Alexander, how did he can know a lot of details of war in 1812 and Alexander´s arriving to Paris...?
And I read, that Feodor secretly met some persons from imperial family... why?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 03, 2006, 12:04:23 PM
Is this the only thread that covers this? If so, that's a pity because I have recently read the Imperial Legend book, and can only say it is very mysterious and perhaps there is some truth in it. Certainly, evidence points both ways, but one wonders if the mystery of those days in Taganrog will ever be solved, or if solved at all well. Alexander does sound like he was sick at the purported time of his death, yet, at the same time, Fedor Kuzmuch sounds from accounts that he had at the very least a connection to the Romanov family. Alexander may have died; after all in many ways he was mysterious during his life. As for Feodor, it is sometimes siad he was an illegitimate son of Paul's named Simeon, and this explains his connections to the Romanovs, amd also his connection to Count Osten-Sacken.. I find that rather convincing, but now we are back at the begining.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 03, 2006, 12:16:37 PM
The details of the 1812 war and Alexander's visit to Paris were widely known, especially to those in the military who brought their stories home. That is no mystery. As for visiting members of the IF- they met many people, from peasants to soveriegns.  It was part of the job, so to speak. I am glad to plays devil's advocate here, as I do not believe in this "myth" of Alexander.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on April 04, 2006, 10:25:31 AM
Dear Robert,

but if Feodor wasn´t Alexander, what´s happened with Alexander´s body? As I know, this body is still missing... where is it now?
What do you think about it?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 04, 2006, 10:47:46 AM
The story of an empty tomb is just that- a story. Another Romanov myth.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2006, 11:36:11 AM
There is alot of controversy about the bodies-those of Alexander, and Fedor Kuzmich. There is no proof that there is no body in existence in the tomb of Alexander, although this has been speculated. There is also no evidence, that if there is a body, it is not that of Alexander. But both are perhaps probabilities, that can be resolved only through opening the tomb, and then DNA testing. The body of Feodor, there were rumours that the body in his tomb was not that of him, and is known that part of it was missing when it was exhumed to be buried somewhere else in 1995, according to the book Imperial Legend.  Anyway, has the starter of this thread ever read this book? It's worth it, whatever you believe about this matter.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on April 05, 2006, 12:13:14 PM
Dear Imperial Angel,

I never read this book, but I believe, that Feodor was really Alexander, but it´s only my opinion...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 06, 2006, 10:37:23 AM
It's a great book, the best put out there on the subject, it examines evidence both ways. I am not sure about whether Alexander was Feodor Kuzmich. but I do believe he had some connection to the Imperial Family, that he was not just a noble. Whether he was Alexander or Paul I's illegitmate son, the evidence seems overwhelming after reading that book. I believe that they should do DNA testing, and the like on the remains purported to be Alexander I, if there are any, and perhaps the remains said to be those of Feodor Kuzmich as well. Until anything is proven, by scientific means, I keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 06, 2006, 11:24:54 AM
I think  re-opening the tomb is actually scheduled for some timew in the future, as part of a total renovation and flood prevention project. It is just a matter of time and funding. I would bet, however, that they are not going to do it just to satisfy our curiosity !
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on April 06, 2006, 12:20:19 PM
Really? If they will prove DNA tests, I think it will be very interesting! But I also think, that they won´t do it...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 06, 2006, 12:35:08 PM
I think they would if someone pays for it. Of course the church would have to approve as well.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Svetabel on April 07, 2006, 01:32:19 AM
Quote
Medical treatment? What kind of medical treatment?

Well, usual panacea of those times: blood-letting, emetic, purgative...That was hardly a proper treatment in the case with Alexander. :-/
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 07, 2006, 10:37:49 AM
I hope they do open it, although I think it would not just be to satisfy our curiosity of course! And if they do, it would be wise to do the testing to lay this myth to rest either way, if there is anything there, or to at least began to have some possibilities. It's been a mystery so long, and I think it is as valid as the Anna Anderson case, in that it should be solved, although even then speculation will continue, I suppose.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on April 07, 2006, 01:03:45 PM
And is there anybody, who has got any pics of Feodor? I found there one:

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/cgi-bin/jurnal.cgi?item=1r600r040309155036

but the text is in very difficult languge...
 
If anybody has got the pics of Feodor, please, can you post them there? Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on April 07, 2006, 01:08:05 PM
...oh, I´m sorry, I gave there a wrong website, this is the right website of a pic...

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/cgi-bin/jurnal.cgi?item=1r600r040309155034
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 09, 2006, 08:38:02 PM
There was a picture of him in the book I read; but it was library book, so it had to go back. It's said that Alexander I, and Feodor Kuzmitch did resemble each other, but from pictures it's hard to tel.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on April 11, 2006, 08:02:55 PM
Quote
I think  re-opening the tomb is actually scheduled for some timew in the future, as part of a total renovation and flood prevention project. It is just a matter of time and funding. I would bet, however, that they are not going to do it just to satisfy our curiosity !


Hi Robert - This would be exciting news.  I think you were part of some previous conversations we had about the deplorable state of the tombs.

If you have any info on this could you post it/email it to me?

Many thanks!

dca
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 12, 2006, 08:32:45 AM
Along with the last person, this would be exciting news to me. Feodor Kuzmitch may not be factually Alexander I, but it would be interestting to know, and to put a long standing mystery to rest.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: imperial angel on April 12, 2006, 10:31:06 AM
There is another thread on this now, but I enjoyed reading the debate here. I think the tomb should be opened, and if there are any remains, then we can put to rest these rumours one way or the other, if these remains are his or not, or if they are not his, whose are they are? If they are his, then there is no Fedodor Kuzmitch myth anymore. It could be true; or perhaps not, because myths like this seem to flourish throughout history. As for getting away with it, he was Czar and Autocrat of Russia, and if he wanted to to fake his own death, and lead a different life, then no matter how credible the authorities would have had to do whatever he said, and go along with him. There wasn't a choice for them.  There is no hard evidence is tomb is empty, or if it does have someone, that it's not him,  that is just rumours. It could be true-or perhaps not.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: matushka on July 11, 2008, 08:02:42 AM
The portrait of FK show an interesting similitude beetwen him and Alexandre I. I wonder when was this portrait done? After his death or before and who is the "artist"?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 29, 2009, 02:49:07 PM
I read this book called "Imperial legend: The Mysterious Disappearance of Tsar Alexander I" by Alexis S. Troubetzkoy.  It has a ton of great info on this subject.  The author had the privilege of interviewing the Grand Duchess about her opinion before she died.

Interesting, I found that book on Amazon, I think that I will order a copy, I'm very interested to read it: http://www.amazon.com/Imperial-Legend-Disappearance-Czar-Alexander/dp/1559706082

But I have to say, maybe I will change my opinion about the legend of Feodor Kuzmich, but for now I don't know if I believe in it...I explane, it was possible that the Tsar Alexander I left his responsibility and his people soo suddenly and staging his own death?...it seems strange to me.
And also, I think that he perfectly know about the suspicious movements in St. Petersburg (I'm referring to the Decembrists), it was possible that he left his country with that impending threat?...I'm undecided.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on July 29, 2009, 09:45:05 PM
You see there was a little thing called "guilt about patricide"... probably would be one of the main reasons he left.  If you read that book, you will be a believer.  Trust me.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 30, 2009, 10:03:57 AM
You see there was a little thing called "guilt about patricide"... probably would be one of the main reasons he left.  If you read that book, you will be a believer.  Trust me.

You're right, I read that Emperor Alexander had a knowledge of the conspiracy against his father Paul I, but he didn't do nothing to prevent the assassination of his father...although I don't think that he was directly involved in that cospiracy himself.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on July 30, 2009, 11:55:24 AM
He wasn't directly involved, but he felt like it was his fault anyways.   Who wouldn't?  If someone kill your father for your benefit, you gotta feel some guilt.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 30, 2009, 12:20:22 PM
Indeed true, if he actually didn't die on december 1, 1825, the guilt about patricide would be an explanation of why he wanted to disappear...however, conspiracy against Paul I to part, he was indeed more human than his father and his grandmother, Empress Catherine II (although she was the greatest Empress, anyway).
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: violetta on July 31, 2009, 03:21:19 PM
although the mystery of ivan kuzmich is not goingt to be solved there are some circumstances that might testify to his wish to leave his surroundings. this fact should be taken for granted.i`ve gathered some facts from a few sources.

1. in 1812 he told one of the ladies in waiting: " no, the imperial throne isn`t for me.if i could change my life circumstances i`d do this"

2.in 1817 he said that a monarch should perform his duties aslong as he feels himself physically strong.if he doesn`t feel strong enough he should give up but assured everyone that he felt strong but he wasn`t sure what would happen to him in 10 or 15 years.

3.he also told his younger brother nikolay that he would be his heir because constantine wanted to renounce his rights to the throne. alexander 1 also said that nikolay would take over the throne during his lifetime. grand duchess alexandra feodorovna became scared , and when alexander saw her scared eyes he assured her that he would put this idea into practice later, in a few years` time

4. he also compared himself with a soldier who had served a 25-year term and it was high time to leave the army.... 

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on August 01, 2009, 04:17:18 AM
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure Feodor Kuzmich was Tsar Alexander I.  If you can find any evidence that proves otherwise completely conclusively (ok, that didn't make sense), tell me about it.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: violetta on August 12, 2009, 02:48:38 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm pretty sure Feodor Kuzmich was Tsar Alexander I.  If you can find any evidence that proves otherwise completely conclusively (ok, that didn't make sense), tell me about it.


i`m 100% sure that nowdays it`s impossible to state with absolute certainty that alexander 1 was fedor kuzmich or vice versa. we can speculte with bigger or smaller probability, some facts might suggest that fedor kuzmich is MOST PROBABBLY the tzar. it`s impossible to conduct dna analysis as alexnder`s coffin is empty.
in my post of 31.07 i presented some evidence concerning the tzar`s wish to leave the court nd his position here are some facts that may suggest the existence of the plot that was supposed to help alexander to leave the court.
 
1. there were favotable conditions to carry out alexander`s plans:  a. taganrog was far away far way so it took weeks to get to st petersburg b. his loving wife elizaveta alexeevna with whom she became close again loved him and was ready to help him

2. one of the servants witnessed the following scene: the tzar was kneeling in front of his wife wife whispering "darling darling, forgive me, please!"

3. three days before alexander`s death the tzar received  news bout the death of a messenger called maskov. as soon as the tzar learned bout this he left his bed and immediately went to his wife .they talked for 6 hours, and the subject of their conversation remained a mystery.

4. alexandrr`s doctor claimed thta he didn`t sign autopsy documents. he also said that in the autopsy documents they stated that the tzar had wounds on his right leg but in reality the tzar had wounds  on his left leg.
5.he didn`t want to see  priest althugh he was a firm believer in god

6.the day before is death, when according to all the reports, his condition improved elizaveta alexeevna left their house and went to the neigbouring house where they prepared a room for her.
7. on the day of his death the doctor was bsent, alexander`s friend volkonskiy was prsent instead
8.strangely enoufg, elizaveta alexeevna decided to stay in taganrog though her condition had improved
9.when the tzar`s coffin arrived at the village of babino, not far from petersburg, mriya fodorovna,the dowager empress, arrived there at night.she ordered to open the coffin looked at the body for a long time and left.
10. the srvice took place at tsrskoe selo at night (!),as  the members of the imperial fmily were passing the coffin. mariya fedorovna stopped in front of it and said loudly so that evrybody could hear:  " yes, this is my dear son my dear alexander!"
11.prerevolutionary historians claimed that nikolay I could not stand the fact that someone wsnot of the royl  blood was lying in st pter and pul cathedral so he ordered to tke the body away from the cathedral. his son opened the coffin and found out that it was empty.
12.grand dule nikolay mikhailovich, a professional historian, said to moriis paleologue, the french ambassador, that fedor kuzmich was  tzar alexander 1.soon afterwards nikolay mikhailovich as if changed his opinion on the issue nd followed the official version.

these facts don`t state unequivocally tht fedor kuzmich was tzar alexander but they DO  look weird thus cauing doubts...

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: CountessKate on August 12, 2009, 04:05:11 PM
Quote
i`m 100% sure that nowdays it`s impossible to state with absolute certainty that alexander 1 was fedor kuzmich or vice versa. we can speculte with bigger or smaller probability, some facts might suggest that fedor kuzmich is MOST PROBABBLY the tzar. it`s impossible to conduct dna analysis as alexnder`s coffin is empty.
in my post of 31.07 i presented some evidence concerning the tzar`s wish to leave the court nd his position here are some facts that may suggest the existence of the plot that was supposed to help alexander to leave the court.
 
1. there were favotable conditions to carry out alexander`s plans:  a. taganrog was far away far way so it took weeks to get to st petersburg b. his loving wife elizaveta alexeevna with whom she became close again loved him and was ready to help him

2. one of the servants witnessed the following scene: the tzar was kneeling in front of his wife wife whispering "darling darling, forgive me, please!"

3. three days before alexander`s death the tzar received  news bout the death of a messenger called maskov. as soon as the tzar learned bout this he left his bed and immediately went to his wife .they talked for 6 hours, and the subject of their conversation remained a mystery.

4. alexandrr`s doctor claimed thta he didn`t sign autopsy documents. he also said that in the autopsy documents they stated that the tzar had wounds on his right leg but in reality the tzar had wounds  on his left leg.
5.he didn`t want to see  priest althugh he was a firm believer in god

6.the day before is death, when according to all the reports, his condition improved elizaveta alexeevna left their house and went to the neigbouring house where they prepared a room for her.
7. on the day of his death the doctor was bsent, alexander`s friend volkonskiy was prsent instead
8.strangely enoufg, elizaveta alexeevna decided to stay in taganrog though her condition had improved
9.when the tzar`s coffin arrived at the village of babino, not far from petersburg, mriya fodorovna,the dowager empress, arrived there at night.she ordered to open the coffin looked at the body for a long time and left.
10. the srvice took place at tsrskoe selo at night (!),as  the members of the imperial fmily were passing the coffin. mariya fedorovna stopped in front of it and said loudly so that evrybody could hear:  " yes, this is my dear son my dear alexander!"
11.prerevolutionary historians claimed that nikolay I could not stand the fact that someone wsnot of the royl  blood was lying in st pter and pul cathedral so he ordered to tke the body away from the cathedral. his son opened the coffin and found out that it was empty.
12.grand dule nikolay mikhailovich, a professional historian, said to moriis paleologue, the french ambassador, that fedor kuzmich was  tzar alexander 1.soon afterwards nikolay mikhailovich as if changed his opinion on the issue nd followed the official version.

these facts don`t state unequivocally tht fedor kuzmich was tzar alexander but they DO  look weird thus cauing doubts...


I have to say I'm a little at a loss to understand what these 'facts' prove.  I can't see what was actually wierd about them, or what doubt they were supposed to cast.  Most seem easily susceptible of an alternative explanation, or are just not evidence:

1. Favourable conditions to carrying out a disappearance do not, in the absence of any other facts, suggest that such a deed was carried out.  In any case, Taganrog might have been a long way from St Petersburg but it wasn't in the middle of a desert and the Tsar was hardly on his own there - he had doctors, his wife, his wife's doctors, his friends, soldiers, servants, his wife's servants and the citizens of Taganrog itself milling around - not necessarily ideal conditions in which to vanish.  With regard to Elizaveta Alexeevna there is no evidence of any kind to suggest that because the Tsar had a better relationship with her, that she was ready to help him if he had the plan of pretending to be dead.  The one does not naturally follow on from the other.
2.  There might be plenty of reasons why Alexander might have been asking his wife for forgiveness that had nothing to do with a supposed plot to disappear.  If he had said "darling darling, forgive me please for planning to disappear" now that might have been evidence.
3.  The same as for no. 2.  The Tsar and his wife may have been discussing religion, philosophy, their youth, the weather - who knows.  There is no evidence here of any plot.  No doubt the inference is that there was a body which could be substituted for the Tsar's, but inference and speculation is not evidence. 
4.   All this argues is that Alexander's doctor was wary of committing himself to an explanation of the sudden death of a Tsar - he might have been blamed for not taking better care of him.  Far better to obliquely suggest that the body wasn't really that of his former patient.  Whether that was the explanation or not I can't say - all I am saying here is that there might be several possible reasons for the doctor's conduct which do not provide evidence in themselves of a plot by the Tsar to disappear.
5.  Again, not wishing to see a priest does not of itself indicate a desire to disappear.  It might mean he did not expect to die.
6.  As no. 5.  The Empress might have thought he would recover and moved to a different house so as to be out of the way of his doctors and nurses etc. but stayed in close visiting reach.  She herself was not well and no doubt had her own doctors, nurses etc. to consult.
7.  As nos. 4, 5 and 6.  The doctor, his patient and his patient's friend and wife all thought he was getting better.  The doctor (see no. 4), might subsequently have tried to cover his rather poor prognosis skills by letting people infer that his patient hadn't died because of his neglect.
8.  Why strangely?  She might just have been in a state of shock and still being an invalid, not up to immediately travelling a long distance, on bad roads, in winter.  An improvement was by no means a cure - Alexander and she had gone to Taganrog for her health and indeed she died 5 months later.  No reason to suppose she was just hanging around because her husband wasn't dead.
9.  Not in itself evidence that her son wasn't in that coffin.
10. The statement might have had something to do with the suddeness of Alexander's death giving rise to the rumours of his disappearance - and Maria Feodorovna wanted to contradict the rumours.  Again it does not in itself provide evidence that the rumours were true.
11. Exactly.  They claimed.  There wasn't a public exhumation with attested evidence.
12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 

Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: violetta on August 12, 2009, 04:25:24 PM


I have to say I'm a little at a loss to understand what these 'facts' prove.  I can't see what was actually wierd about them, or what doubt they were supposed to cast.  Most seem easily susceptible of an alternative explanation, or are just not evidence:

1. Favourable conditions to carrying out a disappearance do not, in the absence of any other facts, suggest that such a deed was carried out.  In any case, Taganrog might have been a long way from St Petersburg but it wasn't in the middle of a desert and the Tsar was hardly on his own there - he had doctors, his wife, his wife's doctors, his friends, soldiers, servants, his wife's servants and the citizens of Taganrog itself milling around - not necessarily ideal conditions in which to vanish.  With regard to Elizaveta Alexeevna there is no evidence of any kind to suggest that because the Tsar had a better relationship with her, that she was ready to help him if he had the plan of pretending to be dead.  The one does not naturally follow on from the other.
2.  There might be plenty of reasons why Alexander might have been asking his wife for forgiveness that had nothing to do with a supposed plot to disappear.  If he had said "darling darling, forgive me please for planning to disappear" now that might have been evidence.
3.  The same as for no. 2.  The Tsar and his wife may have been discussing religion, philosophy, their youth, the weather - who knows.  There is no evidence here of any plot.  No doubt the inference is that there was a body which could be substituted for the Tsar's, but inference and speculation is not evidence. 
4.   All this argues is that Alexander's doctor was wary of committing himself to an explanation of the sudden death of a Tsar - he might have been blamed for not taking better care of him.  Far better to obliquely suggest that the body wasn't really that of his former patient.  Whether that was the explanation or not I can't say - all I am saying here is that there might be several possible reasons for the doctor's conduct which do not provide evidence in themselves of a plot by the Tsar to disappear.
5.  Again, not wishing to see a priest does not of itself indicate a desire to disappear.  It might mean he did not expect to die.
6.  As no. 5.  The Empress might have thought he would recover and moved to a different house so as to be out of the way of his doctors and nurses etc. but stayed in close visiting reach.  She herself was not well and no doubt had her own doctors, nurses etc. to consult.
7.  As nos. 4, 5 and 6.  The doctor, his patient and his patient's friend and wife all thought he was getting better.  The doctor (see no. 4), might subsequently have tried to cover his rather poor prognosis skills by letting people infer that his patient hadn't died because of his neglect.
8.  Why strangely?  She might just have been in a state of shock and still being an invalid, not up to immediately travelling a long distance, on bad roads, in winter.  An improvement was by no means a cure - Alexander and she had gone to Taganrog for her health and indeed she died 5 months later.  No reason to suppose she was just hanging around because her husband wasn't dead.
9.  Not in itself evidence that her son wasn't in that coffin.
10. The statement might have had something to do with the suddeness of Alexander's death giving rise to the rumours of his disappearance - and Maria Feodorovna wanted to contradict the rumours.  Again it does not in itself provide evidence that the rumours were true.
11. Exactly.  They claimed.  There wasn't a public exhumation with attested evidence.
12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 


[/quote]

they do not have to prove anything `cause i`ve never said that i`d like to prove anything. they only indicate that the circumstances of alexnder`s death are weird . if we take into considerations that the tzar wished to give up his function it may suggest that the circumstances of his death are weird. this thread is devoted to this mystery so anyone who knows anything plausible about the issue is welcome to contribute.

if you`ve read my post attentively you may have found that i don`t think that this mystery will ever be solved.it is not possible. i`ve listed some facts that might seem strange in the light of alexander`s death and the mystery of fedor kuzmich.

the facts that i`ve presented are not selected by me. they come from a book by moris paleologue and alexander baryatinskiy who conducted their respective research.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on August 12, 2009, 06:30:38 PM
Ok, when I say give me any evidence that disproves something, from now on, I don't really mean it.  You guys really know a lot.  I applaud you.  Let me set aside some time to read all of that.... 
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Janet Ashton on August 24, 2009, 04:06:17 PM

12. As a professional historian, Grand Duke Nicholas might have changed his mind because he realised there was no evidence for his original statement! 



Indeed - he was the sort of man who excitedly shared his half-formed theories for the sake of entertaining people. Nikolai M. never published a book in which he stated that Alexander survived; rather the opposite. But because he had ill-advisedly made some public statements to the contrary (one assumes) many prefer to assume that he'd somehow written his conclusions under imperial duress.....It seems that Nikolai M. was also preparing a book declaring that Kaspar Hauser was a member of his mother's family (Baden), but this too never appeared (and DNA shows that he was almost certainly wrong).
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on August 24, 2009, 04:18:36 PM
Let's all admit that even if Feodor wasn't the tsar, we all still want to believe...
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: violetta on December 16, 2010, 09:56:27 AM
in replies 63, 65 & 67 I came up with a list of circustamstances and discrepancies that MIGHT have testified that there COULD HAVE BEEN SOETHING MORE to the death of the emperor Alexander I than it is officially accepted. It doesn`t prove anything, it rather poses a question: what REALLY happened in Taganrog? I`d like to pose another question because yesterday in Nikolay I`s file in GARF I found the hat belonging to Fedor Kuzmich. His hat was among the most important personal documents and state papers. Why? Why did the emperor keep it if Fedor Kuzmich was just a simple peasant, insane,perceiving himself as the dead emperor? weird, isn`t it?
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: TimM on September 23, 2011, 01:06:04 AM
I've always found this interesting.  I think, that if he had help, Alexander could have pulled it off.  It sounds like he just wanted out, and this was the only way to do it.  As he himself reportedly said, he had served 25 years, soldiers were allowed to retire after all that time.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 10, 2015, 02:29:52 PM
 I Have just bought  Imperial  Legend  pretty amazing
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 11, 2015, 01:24:02 PM
I Have come to the  opinion  that They were the same person   Too  many coencidents
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 24, 2015, 02:39:39 PM
I Have created  a Facebook group on the subject
Title: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch
Post by: agordon2000 on February 26, 2017, 12:26:01 PM
There is evidence that the Tzar Alexander I was the same as Fyodor Kuzmitch. The coffin of Tzar Alexander was opened and nothing was found inside or so they say but wood. The evidence points in this direction but perhaps I have been misinformed.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 02, 2017, 08:21:39 PM
Where is the evidence? There are rumors about the crypt of Alexander I being empty, but no verifiable proof.
Title: Re: Emperor Alexander I vs Fedor Kuzmitch - a mystery
Post by: missmoldavite365 on December 10, 2018, 03:38:37 AM
I found this just the other day, nor sure if it legitimate or not....

https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/science-to-answer-russian-royal-mystery-did-tsar-stage-death-to-become-siberian-monk/