Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: jeremy galeaz on April 22, 2004, 11:06:21 PM

Title: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremy galeaz on April 22, 2004, 11:06:21 PM
This thread will be for those who claim to be Anastasia Nicholaevna.  This is not the place to post about Anna Anderson or Eugenia Smith.


Alixz  05/25/09


Hi everyone,

I'm actually working on a film documentary on the Romanovs, and I was wondering if anyone out there had any iformation on a woman who died, in russia, in 1971 claiming to be anastasia? i've searched on the web, but everything is about anna anderson or eugenia smith.
if you could point me in the right direction i'd greatly appreciate it.

thanks
jeremy
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Namarolf on April 23, 2004, 10:11:44 PM
In a Spanish magazine, "Hola", there was an article (1996 I think) about that woman, including several pictures and letters by her, including some addressed to King George V and (I think) Anna Aleksandrovna Virubova.  The article also deals with an "Aleksey" who was in a prisoners camp in the late1940's and passed away in 1970 or so.
May be you can write the magazine to ask about her or the article.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremy galeaz on April 25, 2004, 02:38:36 PM
thank you!

I'll look it up

jeremy galeaz
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Jeremy Galeaz on April 30, 2004, 12:04:01 AM
So Far

no luck with finding information on the 1971 pretender. Any other suggestions out there?

Thanks
Jeremy Galeaz
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Namarolf on April 30, 2004, 12:15:42 AM
Does anyone in this forum ever saw that article in the Spanish magazine "Hola" about the women claiming to be GD Anastasia who died in Russia in 1971? The article included many pictures of the real Romanovs, and one of the claimant, whose name I don't recall. It was an issue of "Hola" published soon before Infante Elena's wedding to Don Jaime de Marichalar, who were in the cover pic of the magazine.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stepan on May 05, 2004, 04:07:45 PM
Unfortunately I diden´t read the article in "Hola" about a Anastasia claimant who died in 1971. But I suppose it was about Nadezda Ivanovna Vasilyeva who appeared in Siberia about 1920. She was arrested when she tried to go to China and shuttled between prisons in Nizhnij Novgorod,Moscow,Leningrad.
In 1934 she was dispatched to a prison hospital in Kazan.From there she wrote letters to king George V in French and German pleading for help. For a period she changed her story and said she was the daughter of merchant from Riga. According to the hospital staff she was quite normal exept for her claim to be Anastasia.This information I got from Massie´s "The romanovs."  I haven´t read more about this woman anywhere but perhaps there was more in Hola.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2004, 11:42:41 AM
Penny Wilson>> He wrote in her medical certificate: " Citizen Nadezhda V. Ivanova-Vasilyeva aged 33, .. manifests clear symptoms of panic disease in the form of paranoia expressed as systematized delusion of grandeur and persecution. <<

Very interesting.  Thanks for keeping us in touch with all avalible information.  You and Greg have been great.

Did this process  Nadezhda endured  have records with a photo attached?

I would assume someone who was in hiding, for whatever reason, would have "panic disease".

Also, it is true that when the USSR officials wanted to rid themselves of any problem people, the asylums were often used.  I assume just the thought of someone saying they were Anatasia was a problem for them.

Added to this is a quote from the article:
"I can recall over 30 stories about impostors using the name "Anastasia", once said Alexii II, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia. Only three women succeeded in the role of "miraculously saved" princess,  two of which were mentally sick.

Who can name the thirty?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Louise on August 02, 2004, 06:32:01 PM
I was browsing through some old musty, dusty books and happened upon "Hunt for the Tsar and Files on the Tsar" Going through the pictures and the authors attempt to show how the Tsar's children and the Tsar lived, there was a picture of Eugenie Smith. Whatever happened to her and what if anything became of her claim to fame as "GD Anastasia"?

Luise
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2004, 07:45:26 PM
Did you know there was an entire book about her? A big thick one? I had it out of the library a long time ago. She wrote it like an autobiography. The by-line even said 'Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna" This woman looked NOTHING like Anastasia at all. But I guess she had enough people believing her to have some kind of following.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2004, 07:54:16 PM
I just did a 'google' search on her and turned up nothing :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Dashkova on August 02, 2004, 08:22:53 PM
Just a suggestion, but you might want to try searching under:

Eugenia Smith Anastasia

I found a number of websites this way.  Spelling her first name as EugeniA instead of EugeniE seems to help.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2004, 08:31:11 PM
Thanks, that helped. I found this:

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Eugenia%20Smith

One more interesting thing to note here, not meaning to drag the AA thing back up, is that this woman was buried in a Russian Orthodox cemetary, and AA was cremated, which I find suspicious for 2 reasons: someone raised Orthodox would be unlikely to request cremation of their own free will, as AA did, and doing so only added to the case against her, making it look as if she had wanted her remains destroyed to stop any possible tests. Also, remember she was trying to commit suicide when found, another thing a devout Orthodox person is unlikely to do. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Katya04 on August 04, 2004, 08:40:50 PM
That Smith lady didn't look a bit like her!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: bookworm on August 08, 2004, 02:06:29 PM
It would be very interesting if someone in Russia produced a photo of this Nadezhda, wouldn't it? Sounds like she was the right age and had the appropriate physical scars.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Winston Skinner on August 20, 2004, 10:30:51 AM
Eugenia Smith and I were pen pals for a number of years. She passed away several years ago after having lived in Newport, R. I. for some years. My wife and I took our children to meet her while vacationing in that part of the U. S. a couple of years before she died. She certainly presented herself as Anastasia, and some of those close to her said they felt she "believed" she was the grand duchess, whether they did or not. She was a painter and had a large painting in her apartment -signed "OTMA" - that appeared to depict the Romanov children. She was particularly kind to my daughters who were approximately 10 and 14 at the time.

Winston Skinner
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 21, 2004, 02:56:50 PM
Thank you for your story, she sounds like a nice lady and you were lucky to know her!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Journalist on September 22, 2004, 04:42:21 PM
In 1995, Georgia, woman, whoes name is Natalia Bilihodze, sais that she is Anastasia Romanova.The proffecional experts in Georgia, Litva and Germany watch her and made dicision, that she is Anastasia endeed. ( it was not DNM test, of course).After this she goes to Russia, where Eltzin give her the new Russian passport In name Anastasia Romanova...she is 103 old now and lives under guard in one of Europian country...
Her tale contains many interesting details:in one of Georgian provinces ,Abhazia,in Cuhumi, all of citizens knows,that the Russian Tsar Nikolai lived in there town(?!) with his family...in 20-years of 20 century many of Abhazians remember Nikolais working in Botanical Garden,as gardener.Also Alex was treated in Abastumany, also in Georgia.There are some photogarfies of Tsar and also Alex with their doughters,
wich are created in Abhazia in 20x-years...
Why kommunists didn,t kill the Royal family? becouse thay need Nikolai for  confession of Soviets by the Europian countries.Tsar bacame the preson for political sale under Soviets and others...who was killed in Ek.?
Nowone or someone others.This show was created by Soviets for stopping the Family,s watching by some goverments or countryes, but Lenin needs Royal Family for negotiation with enimyes of Soviets. This was reason,for this Tsar was,nt killed,and also the burial in St.Pet. was a show,created by Eltzin and russian goverment.THERE ARE NOT TSAR AND HIS FAMILY
BURIED in ST.Pet.
Who is Bilihodze-Romanova? Is she Anastasia or not?
I think this question will die with her - only for one reason - nobody in goverments want to recognize this old women, even though she is Anastasia,mostly in
US, UK. Why?
The reason is easy to undersend - in 10-years of 20 century Tsar send a lot of gold to US and Uk. The gold,s
qountity was so big, that many of biggest banks in the
world,like Morgan,CityBank,Barclay, Credit Suisse and etc. have renewed their authorized capital  with  this gold, hope that revolution all will wipe  everithing and everone  from memory.
If this women is real Anastasia, now she is heiress
of...20,000,000,000,000$. If she will require this noney from financial institutes,near by her  Bill Gates will look
like a housekeeper with good salary.
If she is,nt Anastasia, this is tragedy of old woman,which is use by swindlers,if she is, it is a bigger tragedy of  Russian Empress, who never receivs
even apologies from her fatherland, the big stupit Russia,
who so inhuman pertained always to personalities.











may be someone knows about this?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on September 22, 2004, 08:35:20 PM
There is not anything like this kind of money to be had. This is just another bogus story.  You posted this same question under a different name, Filmmaker, twice earlier today, a name you have since deleted. Stop playing games, or you will be refused the ability to post here.

FA
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Journalist on September 23, 2004, 02:35:15 AM
In first- I  was changing the names  for interesting
how it works, only.
In twice - the 90% of "stories" in world are bogus,if YOU know, but sometimes documentary filmmakers are looking for everything, which is connected in theme.
I am not adherent to some versions, but this version isn"t so "bogus", as you say.I, am not sure, that the  secret services and politicians of many countries are concern with fool deals...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on September 23, 2004, 09:36:53 AM
Clearly then,
you aren't much of a "journalist" or researcher. Go to amazon.com and find the excellent book "The Lost Fortune of the Tsars", by William Clarke, 1994. ISBN 0 297 81434 6.
Everything you want to know about "Romanov fortunes" after the Revolution is there.
pg. 190: "So far, no evidence has emerged to suggest that any gold deposits were made on behalf of the Romanoff family prior to abdication.  There is little reason to think that there would be...the main dispute about the ownership of the gold we have traced lay between the Imperial government, the Bolshevik government and, in the case of gold shipped to the Bank of England, the British government."

pg 242. "Once again, there is no evidence here that the tsar's personal deposits (in the US) formed part of the residue.  We know that the Guaranty Trust money ($4,976,722) was basically the balance of the 1916 loan. The small amount of money left in National City Bank (now Citibank, $151,784) is testimony to the use of that account by the US treasury to pay off US debts....
pg. 243. "What eventually emerges is that large "tsarist" accounts of up to $70 million did exist in the United States a the end of the war.  The banks, too, have been indentified.  What has not emerged in San Francisco or New York, or elsewhere is any evidence that personal money of the tsar was involved.  Moreover, no trace of alleged former investments of the tsar in New York has ever been found.  Perhaps more significant, the Soviet authorities at no point raised the question of personal tsarist money or investments United States in any of their detailed claims in the courts."

For London: the only Bank with any possible Tsarist deposits was Barings. point 1. pg. 257-58. What we are left with are the original facts: (the money left in Barings) was the original property of the Imperial Russian government and to some extent the Provisional government.  That government in turn had oustanding debts which had to be negotiated and clarified.  But if we are simply searching for  tsarist deposits, the facts now seem clear. Barings and no other London banks had the money."
Point 2. Barings bank went out of business and no longer exists, having collapsed in 1995.

pg. 275. "The only personal funds left abroad are those of the children in Berlin, which were inherited by Grand Duchess Xenia and her Romanoff relations in 1933."
pg. 276. "This leaves the 100million pounds of Tsarist accounts remaining in Paris, London, and New York in 1918, the bulk of which have in any case already been distributed by the British and American governments to other creditors of the former tsarist regime."

Do your homework. There is no huge gold fortune to be had.

As for her claim, just get a small tissue sample from her, and send it to Dr. Terry Melton, Mitotyping Technologies, LLC, 2565 Park Center Boulevard, Suite 200, State College, PA 16801.  She can compare it with the known descendants and simply answer the question for certain.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Journalist on September 25, 2004, 01:50:27 PM
Thank you,Admin.
One question,please:
do you know something concretely about Bilihodze- Romanova? She is 103 years old and lives in Luxemburg...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on September 25, 2004, 01:59:15 PM
never heard of her.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Ilana on September 27, 2004, 11:13:00 AM
In these stories, why do they always make Nicholas a gardener?  A mushroom gatherer might be more appropriate.... ::)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: James_Davidov on November 03, 2004, 10:19:49 PM
Obviously English is your second language?  What country are you from??
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on November 04, 2004, 03:22:14 AM
Please post a photo of "Anastasia" for a laugh.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 09:42:36 AM
I have just been pondering the Anastasia phenomenon, and was wondering how many claimants there were who said they were Anastasia.  I have read about Anna Anderson, and know some about Eugenie Smith.  But did anyone else become as well known as these two, and what was their fate?

Thanks.  I am becoming interested in this whole phenomenon of IF claimants, as I wonder what makes them tick even after the IF remains have been ID'd through DNA.  

Denise

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 16, 2004, 10:13:56 AM
Denise,

I don't know their names, but I know there were quite a few in Russia, but I think over there they came either in pairs or three's (e.g. Anastasia and Maria and Olga etc.) or as a whole family (like the Filatovs). I know there was an Alexei clamaint, I think his name was Michael Golenitski, and there was also another one in Canada, but I forget his name. I am sure someone else will have all this info and post it. This is why I think the surviving members of the IF, like the dowager and the sisters,  would not take any of the claimants seriously, would you if one turned up practically every month?

Helen
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 10:18:15 AM
Oh, exactly Helen.  I feel so badly for the surviving Romanoffs.  How could they make peace with the murder of their family members when there was a new claimant every month?  And in the case of MF, it seems that she never accepted their deaths at all, at least publicly.  

The claimants that make the least sense to me are the Alexei claimants.  How rational is it to believe that a boy with hemophilia could survive a large scale barrage of bullets?

D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 16, 2004, 10:28:26 AM
Quote
....in the case of MF, it seems that she never accepted their deaths at all, at least publicly.  

The claimants that make the least sense to me are the Alexei claimants.  
D

Yes, I think that MF was in denial about it, and that is perfectly understandable, but deep down she probably knew.

I think the way that Alexei claimants deal with the hemophilia issue is the following:

1. Lo and behold, it turns out Alexei didn't really have hemophilia, he was misdiagnosed! He had another blood disorder that later went in remission.

2. The family was not really killed, it was their doubles who were in that basement. So Alexei was not exposed to any of the carnage.

3. They ignore it.

Weird part is, some people still buy into it. I suppose that will always be the case, no matter what kind of evidence exists...

H
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 10:42:01 AM
Quote
Weird part is, some people still buy into it. I suppose that will always be the case, no matter what kind of evidence exists...


I think you have hit the nail on the head.  For years I read everything on AA, and thought Kurth's book was gospel.  Was sad to learn the results of the DNA testing.  I think as humans we need that hope of survival myth in the face of great horror.  

There are those who are still crying conspiracy in the testing.  Well, I soppose it is remotely possible, but not the least bit probable.  People being what they are, SOMEONE would have talked somewhere, you know?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 16, 2004, 11:05:54 AM
Quote

There are those who are still crying conspiracy in the testing.  Well, I soppose it is remotely possible, but not the least bit probable.  People being what they are, SOMEONE would have talked somewhere, you know?


If more people really understood DNA evidence, it would become really clear to them that these conspiracies are pretty much impossible. I think the problem is that many people just don't understand exactly how it works, although they may think that they do. And what one doesn't understand, one tends not to trust, whether consciously of sub-. Like someone else was saying on another thread, if the evidence we had was something like fingerprints, people would accept it more readily, even though DNA is much more powerful evidence than fingerprints. But because most people can understand fingerprint evidence, but not really DNA evidence, they would be much more open to that. Because DNA is still so "mysterious" sounding, people tend to think that it would be easy to misinterpret or misrepresent the results, which is not the case at all.

But we better stay on the subject here  because this can lead into whole other discussion :).
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on November 16, 2004, 11:16:15 AM
Evidently,  there were many Anastasia claimants.

Just as there were claimants for other members of the family.

I'm trying to put togather a list.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 11:17:32 AM
You are so right Helen!!  

Are there any books out there on Romanoff claimants?  Seems to me it would be an interesting topic.  I know Greg and Penny have mentioned working on something.  

I wish I could find a good website on this.  Instead, I find a lot of dubious claimants whose stories stretch the imagination too far to be legitimate....

Denise
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 16, 2004, 12:10:18 PM
There are probably several you've never heard of right  here on this Anastasia forum. Look through the threads, there are some interesting stories!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 01:38:13 PM
I've been doing this, Annie, and there are some interesting cases.  Unfortunately, for every one that could be plausible there are 4-5 that are a bit hard to swallow.  :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ISteinke on November 17, 2004, 10:03:36 AM
I don't believe in "conspiracy theories." At the same time I thoroughly believe Anna Anderson and Anastasia Romanov to have been the same person.

I simply believe that no human science is infallible. I don't put absolute religious-type faith in any science. Every time we think that we have arrived at infallible scientific knowledge, we are eventually forced to either admit that we are mistaken, OR to adjust our ideas. When so much evidence exists in her favor (memories, scars, birth defects, etc.) I am surprised that so many people have "bolted" from her camp based on one piece of evidence.

Mark my words here, all ye who read. Withink a few years new scientific understandings will arise, understandings that will invalidate everything we now think we know about DNA. It's inevitable. Just be patient. Bide your time. Wait.

Remember, also, that DNA is only the most recent technology that has supposedly proved "AA" to be false. A generation ago people were saying the same things about her having been proved false, based on forensic examination of her ears. Then it was discovered that the pictures they were looking at were "backward." When they examined the pictures correctly they discovered that AA and AN had absolutely identical ears. Eventually the same kind of thing will happen with the DNA results.

What do I think about the DNA? Same old story- different technology. Ho-hum. I'm not shaken.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 17, 2004, 10:25:35 AM
I had been hopeful she would be Anastasia, and the DNA tests were disappointing. I had really wanted to hang on to the hope and mystery. But after the results, I started looking at the whole story more objectively, without my fantasies and wishful thinking, and I saw how silly a lot of it really was, how much she didn't even look like her, and how there is absolutely NOTHING that can't be explained away.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 10:35:04 AM
Quote
I don't believe in "conspiracy theories." At the same time I thoroughly believe Anna Anderson and Anastasia Romanov to have been the same person.

I simply believe that no human science is infallible. I don't put absolute religious-type faith in any science. Every time we think that we have arrived at infallible scientific knowledge, we are eventually forced to either admit that we are mistaken, OR to adjust our ideas. When so much evidence exists in her favor (memories, scars, birth defects, etc.) I am surprised that so many people have "bolted" from her camp based on one piece of evidence.

Mark my words here, all ye who read. Withink a few years new scientific understandings will arise, understandings that will invalidate everything we now think we know about DNA. It's inevitable. Just be patient. Bide your time. Wait.

Remember, also, that DNA is only the most recent technology that has supposedly proved "AA" to be false. A generation ago people were saying the same things about her having been proved false, based on forensic examination of her ears. Then it was discovered that the pictures they were looking at were "backward." When they examined the pictures correctly they discovered that AA and AN had absolutely identical ears. Eventually the same kind of thing will happen with the DNA results.

What do I think about the DNA? Same old story- different technology. Ho-hum. I'm not shaken.

 


ISteinke,

The only reason you feel this way is because you don't understand the science of DNA. You say you don't believe in conspiracy theories, but if you did understand how DNA works, then you would clearly see that by not believing this particular evidence, you do indeed believe in conspiracy. Human science is not infallible, nobody ever said was, but one day perhaps, you will understand the concept of probability and improbability in science and how that serves to prove and disprove things. You cannot compare the pseudo-science of ear comparison or hearsay to the powerful science of DNA. Most people who are questioning DNA are the ones who do not really understand it. Talk to people who are DNA experts, and I mean not the ones who think they are experts, but ones who actually studied it and continue to study it and who truly understand it. See what they say about this case. Before you get taken in by various "conspiracy theories", and yes this is what they are for all intents and purposes here, even though you don't think so, learn more about these things, that way you can make an informed decision... I am not trying to be patronizing to you, I really mean it seriously. I am sure there is nothing at this point that anyone can say to show you the holes in your reasoning, nor does it really matter that much. I just hate to see people who are obviously intelligent enough to be able to reason well and analyze evidence, get misled and confused by something they only half understand...  :(

Helen
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on November 17, 2004, 10:40:35 AM
Just to add to Helen's good advice, certain things just 'ARE' and are proven scientifically, and won't change. The human body breathes in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide...science proved that...Will that "change"?

The moon revolves around the earth, and both revolve around the Sun. Galileo went to JAIL for his proof. Will that ever change?

All creatures have DNA in their cells. We can see it, measure it and know what it is. That will not change. The structure of DNA can be seen and studied by anyone who wants to do so. Will we learn MORE about it? sure! but that does not mean that EVERYTHING we already know will be tossed out the window...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ISteinke on November 17, 2004, 10:46:15 AM
I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I, for one, have NEVER believed in AA based on a wish or desire that she would be Anastasia. As a matter of fact, I can't even really say that I "believe in Anna Anderson." Anyone who accepts her claims, and yet looks at her from a "faith" standpoint is delving into an area that belongs to religious faith, NOT a question of the identity of a human being.

To me the objective evidence in her favor seems so absolutely overwhelming, that I cannot just take one piece of evidence, however compelling it might SOUND, and discount everything else.

Having had identical body markings to Grand Duchess Anastasia seems to me to be just as compelling as DNA evidence. These markings are not things that anyone could have concocted. Only her parents, Shura, and Botkin would have known about these things. They were historically unimportant in all respects, EXCEPT for the way that they relate to the Anastasia case. Noone would have know about them. Stupid, uneducated Franziska, far away in Poland, certainly would not have known the locations of Anastasia's birthmarks and scars.

Shura is documented as having said that AA's feet were identical to Anastasia's feet. Her exact words were, "These are Anastasia's feet."

Also, it is a misnomer to say that Grand Duchess Olga rejected her. It is a documented quote of G.D.Olga, sitting in AA's hospital room, "Shura and the little one seem happy to have found one another again." That, my friends, adds up, incontestably to a recognition.

None of us know, none of us will ever know, just exactly what went on behind the scenes at Villa Hvidore (between Olga and Maria Feodorovna) after Olga returned from Berlin. However, knowing both of their personalities and relationships with one another, doesn't it seem likely that Olga took a severe browbeating from her domineering mother.

Now. I am going to share a quote with you, a quote that gets right down to the meat of this.  I cannot tell where I got it without the permission of the person who shared it [ask me privately], but it is incredibly significant in this discussion.

Many years ago when asked by a researcher about AA one of Xenia's grandsons replied, "Of course it was her. We all knew it was her. But we were forbidden by my grandmother to talk about it, or even to think about it. And family loyalty was everything after the revolution-- a she [Anastasia] had placed herself outside of that."

Enough said

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on November 17, 2004, 10:50:23 AM
Funny,
But, one of Xenia's grandsons always said to family members (ask me who) "Anna Anderson was the best of all the fakes".
FA
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 10:52:47 AM
Quote
Having had identical body markings to Grand Duchess Anastasia seems to me to be just as compelling as DNA evidence. Enough said

 


Just by this statement alone you show how little you undestand of this. That's too bad. Enough said.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ISteinke on November 17, 2004, 10:57:47 AM
Here's a significant, quote, followed bymore of my thoughts on the issue. This quote is from one of the websites concerning AA.

"These lines were sent to me by a friend in 1995, not long after the British Home Office's Forensic Sciences Service announced that mitochondrial DNA testing of the remains of “Anna Anderson” had proved conclusively that she was not Anastasia of Russia, youngest daughter of Tsar Nicholas II. According to the British genetics team at Aldermaston, headed by Dr. Peter..."

Here is all the answer that is needed as regards the DNA issue. Until I read this quote I did not realize that the forensic science service of the British Home Office was involved with all of this. To me that invalidates all of our knowledge of these DNA results.

The sovereign of Great Britain may no longer hold great political power, but in issues dealing with his/her own family the power of the crown is still ABSOLUTE. If the queen wants privacy on this kind of family issue SHE WILL GET IT, PERIOD. In matters regarding her own family the home office is bound to do what Queen and Elizabeth and/or Prince Phillip want them to do.

Don't you see? These researchers are expressing results that the royal family wants expressed. If you [I mean "you" in a general sense- i.e. anyone] believe anything else you are being incorrigibly naive.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on November 17, 2004, 11:02:50 AM
Blind testing with exact matching results was done in the United States by an independant university team.  No relationship to the UK whatsoever. They got the exact same results as everyone else. If you think that the Queen of England somehow manipulated Dr. Terry Melton (now one of the world's leading experts in the field) to falsify the results, you "and I mean you in the general sense" are so caught up in conspiracy theory as to border upon delusional.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 11:05:51 AM

Apparently everyone is somehow involved in covering up the fact that AA was AN. Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, if I ever saw one. Make up your mind, ISteinke are you a conspiracy theorist or not?  ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on November 17, 2004, 11:08:45 AM
and, as a footnote, even the most dedicated supporters of AA themselves dismiss the conspiracy theories as impossible.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 11:23:53 AM
I think this discussion is getting off track, the topic is "Anastasia claimants" and not conspiracies against AA. ISteinke, there are many other threads where you can talk about your conspiracy theories, I don't think this really belongs here, although I am guilty of going in that direction myself... Let's get back to Denise's topic...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ISteinke on November 17, 2004, 01:08:25 PM
I don't believe in conspiracy theories. I simply believe that the Queen said, "NO."

I am now going to be leaving this forum entirely. What I am finding is this. The anti-Anna party is so completely stubborn, closed-minded, bigoted, prejudiced, self-righteous, judgemental, condescending, and incomprehensibly sceptical, that it is useless to discuss any issues whatsoever. All of you ignore the vast mass of evidence in favor of Anna in favor of your own stupid mantras


She's not Anastasia because of course she can't be Anastasia

Face it she's not Anastasia


DNA DNA DNA DNA DNA DNA DNA DNA, etcetera, etcetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

I'm sick of all of this idiocy.  Goodbye.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 01:21:13 PM

ISteinke,

You should try to learn how to rise up to the challenge of defending your views and accepting valid criticisms without throwing temper tantrums - you will most certainly need this skill in life. Why don't you take your own advice from the post you made less than a week ago when Annie was going to leave the forum over the same issue:

ISteinke
YaBB Junior Member

  Re: AA and FS
« Reply #135 on: Nov 11th, 2004, 3:34pm »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Annie-
   KEEP POSTING! We all like you. It isn't like the world is going to end because you have a different viewpoint on Anastasia. I mean, she's dead, and the whole discussion is ultimately pointless, except as a fun diversion. So stay on the forum and just enjoy it.  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Stay and defend your point of view, Isteinke! You will gain a lot more respect that way.

Helen
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on November 17, 2004, 01:24:57 PM
Absolutely,
Please stay. Just present the evidence to support your postions. I would be happy to direct you to texts so you can understand the fundemental concepts behind DNA analysis, and understand that certain basic facts about DNA are not going to ever change...
If you have evidence to support the Queen's suppression of evidence, you should present it...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 01:51:42 PM
The whole idea of having these forum discussions is precisely this. Everyone presents their opinions and backs them up with facts they based them on. If someone is presenting something that does not make any sense and this person cannot back up their statements, then of course others will challenge these views, until and if this person can back them up with realistic information. When someone makes a statement such as "the Queen of England is behind falsifying AA's DNA results", this is technically libel against the Queen of England, so this person better present proof of what he or she is saying. This is not a hard concept to understand and it has absolutely nothing to do with others being judgmental or closeminded. I simply don't understand the problem here and why people are getting so upset that their views are being challenged  ???.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 02:00:19 PM
Isteinke,

If you are really serious about learning facts about DNA, and as a gesture of goodwill towards you, I am willing to sacrifice a nifty text book that I used when I was studying it, called "Molecular Biology made simple and fun" by David Clark. This will give you a better idea of what we're dealing with here and put you in a much better position to argue your points, as opposed to just dismissing evidence that you don't really understand and focusing on things that are not as compelling. Yes, I am willing to send it to you if you like, or you can just pick it up at a bookstore (they can order it for you).  So let me know!  :)

All the best,

Helen
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 17, 2004, 02:08:41 PM
I see everyone has been busy posting while I was gone today.  I truly hope ISteinke doesn't leave because of this AA/AN dispute.  His opinions are always interesting.  

I have been looking at other links on the Forum for Anastasia claimants.  It seems that most of them have no touch with reality.  I guess I was wondering if there were any others who came forward that had any followers OTHER THAN AA and Eugenia Smith??  

Denise

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 02:15:57 PM
Quote
 I guess I was wondering if there were any others who came forward that had any followers OTHER THAN AA and Eugenia Smith??  



Does anyone have any details about the Filatovs? They were pretty major claimants at some point, I believe...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 17, 2004, 02:21:21 PM
Also, Denise, I just remembered. If you haven't already, you may want to check out a thread called "New study questions Romanov bones". It has some pretty interesting info about another claimant, allegedly a descendant of Anastasia, but not the AA Anastasia, another Anastasia. He is now actively involved in a scientific study that is trying to prove that the Ekaterinburg bones are not really authentic. It's a fun read.  :)

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 17, 2004, 03:02:18 PM
The Queen did not manipulate the test results, and I know this for a fact. To say she did is a grevious slur against her character, and I for one will not stand for it!

First, the Koptyaki remains thought to be Alexandra and her daughters had their mtDNA sequenced before any samples from living collateral descendants was obtained. To question these results begs the question - just what are Prince Philip's relatives doing in a Russian forest?! Because, boys and girls, we know where all his other relatives are - they were all accounted for - except for Alix and her offspring.

Second, unbeknownst to only a handful of people, a blood sample was taken from another of Victoria's maternal line descendants before any samples were obtained from Prince Philip. Her mtDNA exactly matched Philip's. Thus, both "chances" to manipulate results were lost due to the sequencing of events.

I really get annoyed when people attack people who cannot defend themselves - which is the case here. As Helen A says - you obviously don't understand mtDNA.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on November 24, 2004, 09:36:26 PM
There is always so much talk about Anna Anderson's claim to fame, but what about Eugenia Smith?  I know absolutely nothing about her, does anyone have any info on her or pics?  Does anyone on this forum believe her?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 24, 2004, 09:45:07 PM
We had a little thread on her once:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091485921

She also wrote a book, you can usually find it in a search.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 24, 2004, 10:03:29 PM
I read her book a while back when I was younger and it brought me to tears. I believed she was the "real" Anastasia until my brain smacked me one and woke me up.
Here are some pictures of her:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_6.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 24, 2004, 10:06:06 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_7.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_9.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_10.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 24, 2004, 10:06:29 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_16.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 24, 2004, 10:08:20 PM
Thanks for those pics! I read her book when I was in Jr. high and it seemed so real.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 24, 2004, 10:11:14 PM
Quote
Thanks for those pics! I read her book when I was in Jr. high and it seemed so real.

That was when I read it too. I agree, it did sound so real. There was one part near the end when she was talking about the family walking down some stairs. I don't remember what it was about but I've always remembered that part, lol
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on November 25, 2004, 05:25:31 PM
Do you remember the name of her book?  You two make it seem like the book is really good but she looks absolutely nothing like Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 25, 2004, 06:02:14 PM
You can find her book on a google search. I'd do it  myself but my computer is acting slow tonight.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 25, 2004, 07:10:52 PM
The book is just called ANASTASIA. On the book itself, there is no author, just "autobiography".
On Bookfinders it is listed for around $15-20 usually, with the author as "Nicolaevna, Anastasia".
Much harder to find [for collectors] I think is the LIFE magazine she was featured on the cover of. [if I recall correctly].
I remember her being made a fool of whenn she and Golienewski [sic] "recognized" each other, then later "denounced" each other.
Now, I think the whole thing is discredited as a publisher's gimmick.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 25, 2004, 07:12:54 PM
p.s. the book was sub-titled "Volume 1". There never was a "Volume 2".
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 26, 2004, 12:18:13 AM
I have the LIFE article... it's quite interesting.
I've tried to collect her book just to add to my collection but it's hard finding a nice quality version  :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 26, 2004, 09:16:16 AM
When she wrote the book, she claimed to really be Anastasia. Later on, she wasn't she forced to return the money because the book was ruled fiction?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 26, 2004, 10:36:01 AM
I do not remember all the details, but I think the publisher was in on the whole charade.
The book came out in 1963, and although rather young, I followed the whole story.  Other events in that year put the story on the back pages so I sort of lost track of it for some time.
Would be interesting to read what she & AA thought of each other, I am sure something must have been said.
I still have the book, but have not re-read it in many years.
Best,
Robert
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Grand_Duke_Alexei on November 26, 2004, 08:14:45 PM
Quote
I have the LIFE article... it's quite interesting.
I've tried to collect her book just to add to my collection but it's hard finding a nice quality version  :-/


Laura, would you mind re-typing the article on the thread?  I would love to read it.  

Does anyone happen to have any pics of Golienewski?  
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on November 26, 2004, 08:24:49 PM
Quote

Laura, would you mind re-typing the article on the thread?  I would love to read it.  

Does anyone happen to have any pics of Golienewski?  


I second both of these suggestions.  Please?  :)
D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 27, 2004, 10:21:06 PM
You know, Eugenia Smith looks a lot more like Anastasia to me than AA, going purely by her features of course...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 27, 2004, 11:17:32 PM
Quote

I second both of these suggestions.  Please?  :)
D


Yeah, not a problem. I just gotta wait till I have a litte more time to do it. I'm trying to balance a full-time and part-time job as well as house work. So It might take me a bit to get it up. But It will happen within the next few days.  ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 27, 2004, 11:18:48 PM
Quote
You know, Eugenia Smith looks a lot more like Anastasia to me than AA, going purely by her features of course...

I second this  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lanie on November 27, 2004, 11:18:53 PM
A photograph of Golinewski or whatever his name was can be found in Massie's The Romanovs: The Final Chapter.  Fellow looks almost identical to my uncle Jim. ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on December 08, 2004, 02:06:21 PM
I just wanted everyone to know, that I haven't forgotten the request made. It's just taking me some time to type it all in between jobs.

Should be up soon, I hop  :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alexa on December 09, 2004, 01:11:52 PM
Just an idea for those interested in the Life article.  If you give Time Inc. a call (212-522-1212) they may be able to send you a copy of the article.  I'm not sure if it's still around (when I left, there was talk of shutting it down), but Time Inc. has a library filled with a copy of every issue of every magazine they ever published in the US.  Also try the photo archives.  Although they only keep copies of photos and films (I actually got to see an orginal copy of the Zupruder film, and original color slides of Hitler taken by his private photographer) they may be able to connect you with someone who can provide a copy of the article.  You will need to know the exact issue the article appeared in though.

Alexa
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on December 14, 2004, 08:14:54 PM
Natalia Petrovna Pelikhodze seems to be an interesting character in Russian Society. Since 2001 the year that I started 8th grade I've always been interested in the Romanovs, especially Anastasia! I soon started to write a Children's book on her making it seem like she was the narrator of her own lifestory. I' am not finished because I need a conclusion. I really believe Anastasia survived because her bones are missing from her family's. She was only 5"2" when she was 17 in 1918 the other bones of her sisters are much larger and longer than hers. In summer of 2002 when I was surfing the net I came across an article On Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin proving that Anastasia was an old woman by the name of Natalia Petrovna Pelikhodze. He claims they took DNA tests and handwriting samples in Germany and Japan. And that Anastasia was rescued by her godfather by the name of Verkhovsky who was then serving in the dreaded Checka also known as secret police and forerunner of the KGB. He secretively took Anastasia out of the Ipatiev House and together found a hiding place to live.  On June 12, 2002 the old woman proven to be the Czarina’s youngest daughter held a press conference in Moscow, at which she had said to be the lost Grand Duchess and daughter of the last Czar of Russia and survived the shooting of her family. According to Pelikhodze, Anastasia had not been shot and has been living in Georgia under the name of Natalia Pelikhodze.  Only in 1995, the old woman thought about returning to her true title. Now as a Russian citizen, Grand Duchess Anastasia returned to Russia for great inheritance of her family.  But from what experts of this story told me the woman never showed up in Moscow  and that the Press conference was suppose to be in September of 2002. That story has been for gone for about two summers and no one has ever heard from Vladelen Sirotkin. Can Someone tell me where I could reach Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin so I could get to the bottom of this? That would really be of great help::)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga on December 14, 2004, 08:46:45 PM
Quote
Natalia Petrovna Pelikhodze seems to be an interesting character in Russian Society.


Her surname sounds Georgian.

Quote
I really believe Anastasia survived because her bones are missing from her family's.


A definitive argument!

Quote
He claims they took DNA tests and handwriting samples in Germany and Japan.


May we see them? Whose DNA was Pelikhodze's tested aganst?

Quote
......rescued by her godfather by the name of Verkhovsky


Anastasia Nikolaevna did not have a godfather by the name of Verkhovsky.

Quote
He secretively took Anastasia out of the Ipatiev House and together found a hiding place to live.


How? When? Where?

Quote
But from what experts of this story told me the woman never showed up in Moscow  and that the Press conference was suppose to be in September of 2002.


Funny that.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lanie on December 14, 2004, 09:22:25 PM
I've read this woman's name was Belikhodze.  I've seen some websites in Russian about her, she was supposed to go to Moscow and get all this tsarist gold in 2002.  Riiiiight. ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on December 15, 2004, 02:43:26 PM
Hi! Excuse my manners from yesterday I became a new member since them! My name is Brittany I'am QueenEna1887!!! This is only something I read! I don't have the proof this is something I read while searching the net! I hope it is true!!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on December 15, 2004, 05:35:24 PM
Welcome QueenEna! :) If you want to read more on claimants, we have a forum called "A Question of Survivors" you might want to check out!

I like Ena too, do you have any pics of her and King Alfonso?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on December 16, 2004, 03:08:37 PM
Thank You Annie and yes I do have photos of Queen Ena and her husband Alfonso and with her children. But the only problem is I do not know how the other members post their pictures
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on December 16, 2004, 07:43:34 PM
If you go to http://www.photobucket.com and start an account, you can upload your pics there. Then under the thumbnails (little versions of your pics in the album) there will be a url starting with img. Copy that and paste it here and it will post!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 13, 2005, 06:27:34 PM
Found this on the Telegraph website  :)

The last 'real' Anastasia is showing her age at 101
By Marcus Warren in Moscow


The latest - and almost certainly the last - woman to declare that she is Anastasia, the murdered Tsar's youngest daughter, has surfaced in the former Soviet Union, apparently the heiress to a fabulous fortune and aged nearly 101.
Apparently, the Grand Duchess was not shot dead by the Bolsheviks in 1918 but is now living in Georgia where she is known as Natalya Bilikhodze, a committee formed to prepare her homecoming has announced in Moscow.
Supporters said that Mrs Bilikhodze, whose whereabouts are a secret, will visit Russia in September when her real identity will be acknowledged and billions of pounds belonging to the Romanovs will then be handed over to her.
Committee's chairman, Yuri Dergausov, told a press conference:"Let us restore the honourable name of Anastasia as soon as possible and bring the funds back to Mother Russia."
The claims place Mrs Bilikhodze in a glorious line of dozens who have claimed to be Nicholas and Alexandra's fourth child.
Her famous predecessors include a Swede [sic], Anna Anderson, "discovered" in a Berlin psychiatric hospital, and an American woman called Eugenia Smith.
The Anastasia legend has inspired books, a cartoon film, a ballet and numerous hoaxes.
An exhaustive post mortem examination of remains found in the forests outside Yekaterinburg confirmed that they belonged to the Romanovs.
They were buried in a vault in St Petersburg four years ago. Russian experts yesterday reacted with weary scepticism to the news that the "real" Anastasia had turned up at last.
Eduard Radzinsky, a historian, said: "Whenever I finish a lecture in the West, there is always some pathetic man or woman hanging around at the end claiming to have heard of, know, or actually be a Romanov. It's sad really."
Vladimir Solovyev, the prosecutor who investigated the Yekaterinburg bones, said: "If someone is trying to present themselves as Anastasia, they will have to do it through the courts and that is practically impossible."
The Orthodox Church has never acknowledged the bones as those of the last Tsar and his family but it canonised the Romanovs two years ago.
It made them saints on the assumption that they were murdered, a spokesman said.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: tatiana_Romanova on February 13, 2005, 06:46:30 PM
so are u saying that it is possible that the woman who lives in the US is Anastasia. if so, does she have the scar and her neck from that mole, or any other scars or marks on her body that match the marks on Anastasia's body?
wasn't Anastasia's body i mean, bones found?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 07:16:56 PM
Quote
so are u saying that it is possible that the woman who lives in the US is anastasia. if so, does she have the scar and her neck from that mole, or any other scars or marks on her body that match the marks on anastasia's body?
wasn't anastasia's body i mean, bones found?


The woman in the US was Anna Anderson.  Although she had surface similarities, like the scar on the neck, her DNA did not match Alexandra or the G3 Grand Duchesses in the Pig's meadow grave.  

Anastasia's remains, like Alexei's, have not been found at this time.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 13, 2005, 08:21:25 PM
No not true! DNA tests proved that the bones found were of the four staff people, Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia!

Maria and Alexei are the ones missing, and it is known that they are dead! Lots of the witnesses said that EVERYONE was dead!

So ALL those pretenders and JUST PRETENDERS! I dont believe any of them! But I know not everyone agrees with that!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 08:37:00 PM
Quote
No not true! DNA tests proved that the bones found were of the four staff people, Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana and Anastasia!


No, Vera.  According to the tests, the bodies found were Nicholas, Alexandra and 3 grand duchesses.  Although the Russians identified the missing grand duchess as Maria, the Americans saw that the sacrum (lower spine, the tail bone) on the skeleton identified as Anastasia was too mature (the bones had fused together) to be a 17 yr old girl.  That usually happens after age 18, which would make the skeleton Marie.



Quote

Maria and Alexei are the ones missing, and it is known that they are dead! Lots of the witnesses said that EVERYONE was dead!


Yes, but two grand duchesses were still making noise as the bodies were carried out.  The Bolsheviks claim to have shot them in the head.  One, Marie, was heard choking on her own blood.  So yes, witnesses, the Bolsheviks, claimed everyone was dead.  If they lost two bodies, of course they would say that.

Quote

So ALL those pretenders and JUST PRETENDERS! I don't believe any of them! But I know not everyone agrees with that!

That is right.  NONE of the pretenders to date have proven to be Romanovs.  Many have had their DNA tested, and it has come out false.  You must remember that it was rumored after the Romanovs were killed that there were huge amounts of money in foreign banks.  A lot of people wanted a piece of that, so they became "Romanovs."

There are some people who believe that some claimants are real.  That is their choice.  Learning about the Romanovs is a journey, and not everyone chooses to walk the same path....

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Georgiy on February 13, 2005, 09:50:39 PM
I don't know whether the sacrum would make a huge difference - there's only 2 years between Maria and Anastasia, the former had just turned 19, the latter 17. It mightn't be impossible for Anastasia's sacrum to have fused. Typically it is after 18, but that doesn't mean always. I think height of the skeleton might be a better way to work it out - Maria was a tall girl, Anastasia was a bit short for her age.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 10:41:27 PM
Quote
I don't know whether the sacrum would make a huge difference - there's only 2 years between Maria and Anastasia, the former had just turned 19, the latter 17. It mightn't be impossible for Anastasia's sacrum to have fused. Typically it is after 18, but that doesn't mean always. I think height of the skeleton might be a better way to work it out - Maria was a tall girl, Anastasia was a bit short for her age.



I did not know this about the sacrum.  The way it has been bandied about in the books I've read makes it sound as ironclad as the DNA evidence.  I think that because Anastasia had just turned 17, it is felt that the sacrum was too mature.

Also, does anyone know off hand the heights on the GD bones from Pig's Meadow?  
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lanie on February 13, 2005, 11:01:27 PM
THe heights for Olga were like, 5'4 - 5'5" or something.  For the skeleton identified as Tatiana, 5'5" or 5'6".  For Maria, 5'6" or 5'7".  To me that's odd since Tatiana was taller.  Anyway, I think that's what the American teams figured out - but AFAIK, they couldn't really figure out the real height, just had to extrapolate it from the sawed leg (or arm, I forget?) bones.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 13, 2005, 11:38:17 PM
Ya I find it kind of odd that the Maria skeleton was taller than the one of Tatiana! Is it possible that the scientists or whoever said that had mistaken Maria's body for Tatiana's?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Mgmstl on February 13, 2005, 11:48:20 PM
What I try to keep in perspective about this is that once you have read FOTR you realize that the possiblity of survival was NIL.

I always wonder IF they had not changed commandants would the children have been executed?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Malenkaya on February 14, 2005, 01:07:21 AM
Despite the difference of opinions by the Russian and American scientists (the Russians say Marie is the missing daughter, the Americans claim it's Anastasia) I did read something I found disturbing.  Apparently, the skelaton buried with Anastasia's name is 5'7" tall.  I know that there are no photos of the daughters at the very end, but no one can convince me that Anastasia had something like a 5 inch growth spurt in the last few months of her life, taking her from being the shortest sister to the tallest.  :-/

Anastasia
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 14, 2005, 01:45:45 AM
Thats true Malenkaya, its almost imposible to grow that much in a short period of time!

"I always wonder IF they had not changed commandants would the children have been executed?"

I don't get that Micheal.G.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Malenkaya on February 14, 2005, 02:15:04 AM
Quote
"I always wonder IF they had not changed commandants would the children have been executed?"

I don't get that Micheal.G.


There was a changing of guards at the Ipatiev house not long before the murders.  He was wondering if the children would have been killed if the previous guards were still on duty, instead of the ones who replaced them.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 14, 2005, 07:43:41 AM
This is interesting! SO good to see a theory about Anastasia other than the tired old AA stories! I posted a thread awhile back "Anastasia theories other than AA" and got 0 responses :P
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 09:07:50 AM
Quote
 The way it has been bandied about in the books I've read makes it sound as ironclad as the DNA evidence.  


Denise, there is no other evidence out there that is as ironclad as DNA evidence.  :)

P.S. I should add, if it's done correctly.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 09:11:36 AM
Quote
To me that's odd since Tatiana was taller.  


Actually, I don't think she was, based on some of the pictures I've seen. Tatiana may have looked taller because she was thinner, but I remember seeing pictures where Maria was a little bit taller, or at least the same height. In any case, I think Maria, at the age of 18-19 could have still grown some more (I still grew about an inch at 19), whereas Tatiana was older and probably no longer grew...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lanie on February 14, 2005, 12:03:44 PM
Really? Looks to me like TN was an inch or two taller than MN, but I quite honestly am very bad at telling people's height.  I'm at school in the computer lab waiting for my next class (math, ew) so when I get home I'll look at my pictures... most certainly in the photos of the girls in 1917 at least TN was taller, and I think I've got some from 1918.  I'll check when I get home. :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 02:16:51 PM
Unfortunately I can't remember which picture this was that I am thinking of where Maria was taller, I remember even thinking, oh she must have grown a lot during a short time period, because we are always so used to seeing TN as the tallest... I think the way they decided that it was MN and not TN was because some of the spinal rings were not fused yet, so that showed that this skeleton was a couple of years younger than the other one. But I don't remember this 100%. I am sure there must have been some compelling reason why they thought the skeleton belonged to a 19-year-old as opposed to a 21-year-old. We just have to find that info  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:20:10 PM
Quote

Denise, there is no other evidence out there that is as ironclad as DNA evidence.  :)

P.S. I should add, if it's done correctly.


I know!!  But the way the Americans are so sure they are correct over the Russians ID of the body.  I guess it is the new Cold War--on the scientific front.  ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 15, 2005, 05:02:04 PM
I have some articles on this "Last Anastasia" that I saved a sometime in '02.

PSEUDO-ANASTASIA COMES TO MOSCOW WITH 1 TRILLION DOLLARS AND DISTEMPER

An unusual guest has visited Moscow. 101-year-old Natalia Petrovna Bilikhodze, possessor of 1-trillion-dollar fortune held a press conference in Moscow, at which she said she was the great princess Anastasia, the daughter of last Russian tsar Nikoai II, who survived the shooting of the tsar's family.

The story is not new. At the moment, the world knows about 30 great princesses Anastasia. To examine these tsar's daughters, the Geneva bank created an identification service, though nobody of the former candidates could pass the exam. Some of them even could not speak Russian, while explaining this with a hard stress, as a result of which they had completely forgotten the mother language.

Though, not only living pseudo-Anastasias pretend on being heirs of Russian throne, but also descendants of the late pseudo-Anastasias. For example, some "patriotic" forces promote now crown prince Anatoly, the son of princess Anastasia as if shot in 1936. Stressing, that by participating in all state actions the crown prince must strengthen the power and recognition, the "patriots" demand to officially acknowledge the son of the great princess. Of course, this story cannot do without political intrigues.

Crown prince Anatoly addressed to Vladimir Putin with a request about reburial of Anastasia Romanova and her daughter in tsar's burial-vault, after exhumation and genetic analysis, though Putin left this request without answer. According to Anatoly, & The crown prince's mother lies in cemetery of the town Axai, Rostov Region, under the inscription & Anastasia Yakovlevna Ionova.& While next to her, there is the grave of her daughter, Alexandra Vladimirovna Ionova, born in 1935. Their place in the tsar's burial-vault is occupied by false emperor in exile, great prince Vladimir Kirillovich Romanov, placed there according to Yeltsin's order. Therefore, Yeltsin had acknowledged the imposter to be Russian emperor with the right to hand over the throne to his grand-son Georgy.

Why namely great princess Anastasia is so popular among people who would like to return to Russia as ruling family?
The question is that the complicated story of the royal family annihilation holds back where the remains of the killed great princess and of crown prince Alexis are.

In the burial place officially acknowledged to be that one of the tsar's family and later carried to the tsar's burial-vault in St Petersburg, there were no remains of Alexis and of a great princesses, probably, of Maria. Though, the skeleton of great princess Anastasia turned out to belong to a 171-cm-tall person, while Anastasia was only 158 cm tall.

Moreover, after the remains were reburied, the society and the scientists had different opinions. Many scientists are inclined to believe that the remains have been annihilated with sulphuric acid and fire.

Within all these years after the tsar's family execution, the name of Anastasia was covered with some mystic haze. According to Natalia Bilikhodze, Anastasia was not shot. She has been living in Georgia under the name Natalia Bilikhodze. In Georgia, she got married. Only in 1995, she started to bustle about returning to her the true name. Now, Russian citizen Anastasia Nikolaevna Romanova, spite her declining years, prepares herself for returning to Russia and for returning to Russia the great inheritance of her family.

According to the version of crown prince Anatoly, great princess Anastasia and her brother Alexis really survived after the shooting of the family in Yekaterinburg and were concealed by Ural monarchists. The fate of crown prince Alexis is not known. Probably, he did not live long and was buried somewhere in Northern Urals under a false name.

The saviours showed Anastasia to ataman Dutov, the firm monarchist, who had to join the republican, admiral Kolchak, though they did not show her to Sokolov, investigator of the Kolchak army's prosecuting office, because they considered the White Guard to be betrayers of the Tsar and Motherland, who had allowed to Bolsheviks to kill the tsar's family and its devoted servants.

While retreating to Siberia, ataman Dutov could not take Anastasia, because the great princess was physically weak. Moreover, her being among Kolcha's soldiers was dangerous for her, for she could become the mother of a new crown prince.

Later, Anastasia was secretly handed over to the wife of People's Commissar Semen Budenny, Don Cossack woman and hereditary noble woman Ksenia Karetnikova, and sent to her parents as her sister Anastasia as if found after the civil war. Therefore, great princess brought up by Cossack nurse maids, became Cossack woman Anastasia Karetnikova, while remaining hereditary noble woman.

The Soviet power did not disturb Anastasia till she gave birth to Anatoly, next crown prince. Today's rulers, former communists, regard him as a crown prince and know everything about him. Though they prefer to keep silent, because otherwise they should legally acknowledge him as heir of Russian throne.

To keep secret the crown prince's birth, Anastasia was killed through an open window of her house in Axai settlement, August 1936, in presence of her child. Anatoly was not killed together with his mother, because in this case the death could be qualified as a suicide caused by mental disorder after the two children's birth.

According to one more version, during the shooting in the Ipatyev house cellar, the great princess was wounded and lost consciousness. She came to her senses already in the yard, where the bodies were prepared for transporting to the forest. Thanks to the darkness, the girl managed to creep away.
Some unknown well-wishers helped her to reach Romania.

In Bucharest, the great princess told her secret to workers of German embassy. Further events divided the society to supporters and opponents of the fascinating legend. To the first, Gleb Botkin, son of the killed together with the tsar's family doctor, belonged. The meeting of the two former playfellows took place in Munich suburb, in 1926. The great princess, who was now Anna Anderson, shocked Botkin with her similarity of appearance to the Anastasia and with her knowing details from the royal family life. In the house of Botkin, Anna Anderson met her future biographer who spent 20 years and many thousand dollars for a work which resulted in the book Anastasia, Lost Princess. The book became a bestseller and reported to the whole world the striking story of the tsar's daughter.

Though, there were many sceptics, too, whose position was shared by the head of Russian Imperial House, Vladimir Kirillovish. The suspicions grew, when the princess refused to meet with her grandmother, empress Maria Fedorovna, who was in Denmark at that time. Moreover, the princess kept refusing to speak Russian.

Later, Anna married an American millionaire and spent the rest of her life in Charlotsville, Virginia. The 83-year-old Mrs Anderson died in 1984. Her last will was to be cremated after her death.

Though, some meticulous investigators found a medical preparation from the probable princess body, which was kept in the laboratory of the hospital, where Anna Anderson was operated in 1979. The examination was carried out in Aldermaston, the main forensic laboratory of British Home Office, where bones of the Romanovs found in Yekaterinburg were examined. According to the specialists' conclusion, the woman was not great princess Anastasia, however the scientists could not be completely sure of it, as well as they could not be completely sure of the preparation really belonging to Anna Anderson.

Historians are sceptical about any member of the tsar's family having survived. Though, this time, the problem is much more serious. Natalia is backed by people who are ready to speak about returning the great fortune to Russia. This is why, there will be most likely many supporters of the new great princess indentity. But great princess Anastasia was canonized in Russia, together with other members of the tsar's family, as a martyr. If Natalia Bilikhodze is acknowledged being Anastasia, a split in the society will be inevitable, as well as serious shakes, both in religious and in secular life.

Since November 7, 1998, icon of Nikolai II, martyr tsar, started to produce chrism. Since that time, the icon has been travelling through Russia. One of these days, a group of believers brought the icon to the city of Tolyatti to make people confess to the regicide sin.

Yelena Kiseleva
PRAVDA.RU

Translated by Vera Solovieva

Read the original in Russian: http://pravda.ru/main/2002/06/11/42514.html


And:  --- cut --- Apartently my post was too long, so I'll have to post below this :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 15, 2005, 05:12:25 PM
Anastasia Romanova Is Still Living, Expert Argues (Izvestia)
Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin, a historian, reported on an Izvestia website forum that Anastasia Romanova is still alive

by George Watts
issued on 27.06.02

Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin, a historian, reported on an Izvestia website forum that Anastasia Romanova is still living. He maintains that genetics experts carried out 22 specialized studies. Besides that, photograph specialists also conducted comparative expertise studies of young Anastasia and the present elderly woman. Handwriting analyses were also carried out.
All these studies have confirmed that the youngest daughter of Czar Nicholas II, Anastasia (Nikolayevna) Romanova and a woman by the name of Natalia (Petrovna) Pelikhodze are one and the same person. The genetic expertise studies were carried out in Japan and Germany.
Besides that, Sirotkin maintains that there is documentary proof that Anastasia managed to escape from the murderer of the Czarist family - Yurovsky. There are archive documents that confirm that on the eve of the execution of the royal family, Anastasia's godfather, a former officer of the Czarist army by the name of Verkhovsky who then served in the dreaded Checka (secret police and forerunner of the KGB) managed to secretively get Anastasia out of the Ipatiyev house (where the Czarist family was held) and together with the young girl found a hiding place in Yekaterinburg.
Anastasia and her godfather headed to the south of Russia. They were in Rostov-on-Don and the Crimea. In 1919 they settled down in Abkhazia. Subsequently, Verkhovsky protected the young Anastasia in Abkhazia, in the Svanetia Mountains and Tbilisi.
However, Sirotkin points out, there were more than 300 reports and claims that Anastasia had died. In the period between 1918 and 2002 there were 32 reports about living Anastasias, and each of them had "died" 10 or 15 times. In reality, there were only two Anastasias. "Anastasia" Andersen, a Polish Jewess, who filed two law suits in the 20s-70s of the 20th century and Anastasia (Nikolayevna) Romanova (Pelikhodze).
It is interesting that the documents concerning the second law suit by Anastasia-the imposter (Andersen) have been placed in a strong box in Copenhagen and cannot be declassified until the end of the 21st century.


And here is a picture of "Anastasia" :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/anya_clamit.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 15, 2005, 05:14:17 PM
And Finally... here is the last article I have on her....

ANASTASIA-RELATED SCANDAL GAINING FORCE
18:24 2002-07-03

As September approaches, the month when Natalya Bilikhodze who announces herself Grand Duchess Anastasia plans to visit Russia, it is more and more actively disputed whether Russia should recognize her or not.

If we look closer at the disputes, we can see that we have only statements from the party representing Natalya Bilikhodze and of arguments of the community that hold no exact information. At the same time, the hysteria is gaining force.

A book under the title "I am Anastasia Romanova" is already available, but, to tell the truth, it is a rather feeble book. The People representing Natalya Bilikhodze couldn't have published something more pathetic. For example, the falsified diaries of Anna Vyrubova (lady in waiting for Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna since 1904) are more credible than this book by Bilikhodze.

In addition, image of the author, of not really bright old woman, emerges between the lines. "Sister treated my suiter Senechka Ivlev in a friendly manner, but she usually said he was poor and untalented. To my mind, Senechka was very talented, kind to everyone, and liked animals." And so on, in this very manner. At the same time, the book reveals a significant variance: church life of the Tsar family is described in details, and all talks with parsons and worshipping of icons are mentioned with astonishing precision. However, Natalya Bilikhodze makes a blunder when she asks not to pray for deceased Anastasia because it is harmful for Bilikhodze's poor health.

It would be useful for Natalya Bilikhodze and the people representing her interests to know that people canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church are announced saints, and no prayers for the peace of their souls are usually said. Instead, people pray to them asking for help and protection.

At the same time, it is strange that Natalya Bilikhodze remembers perfectly well the names of the parsons, but can not recollect to whom she prayed being the grand duchess.

Let us turn to the notorious expert examinations. It is of no use to present different documents with stamps, because every pseudo-Anastasia who appeared had similar documents. However, when it was decided to hold new expert examinations under the aegis of the commission dealing with burial of the Tsar family remains in 1998, Natalya Bilikhodze's representatives announced their disbelief to the commission. A reasonable question arises at that: if the commission is not trusted, why were DNA and other biological samples compared to determine if she is part of the Tsar's family?

Indeed, the commission cannot be trusted, as is the case with the majority of people. The Russian Orthodox Church was the first to give up the idea of the burial of the Tsar's family, as it was not completely sure the remains were authentic, those which believers were ready to worship.

The Orthodox Church has a crying icon of the Tsar and documentary confirmations of miracles that happen after prayers to the imperial martyrs; the facts are quite enough for canonization. However, the de-canonization of Anastasia is more and more spoken of now.

Money promised by Anastasia to Russia is the reason to say so. Unlike other people, who previously wanted to be recognized as grand duchess and tsarevich to get money that belonged to the Tsar family, on the contrary, Natalya Bilikhodze wants to give to Russia trillions. By the way, the sum is increasing with every day: originally a sum of about one trillion was mentioned; now, two trillion dollars are promised to Russia. Now, the unselfish woman only wants her good name to be restored.

If we are asked to believe in Anastasia and her trillions, let us ask a question: what if Russia believes her but something unexpectedly happens and Natalya Bilikhodze will not give the money? Her geopolitical thinking is strange, as the problem is posed this way: either recognition or no trillions at all.

It is known perfectly well that mental the ability of people over eighty decreases, or, as doctors say, old people suffer from this or that kind of marasmus.

Another question arises here as well: why has Natalya Bilikhodze decided to give the money back only after reaching the age of over 100 years?

Head of the Russian Line analytical information agency Sergey Grigoryev compares the situation with Pinoccio who buries his gold in the Field of Wonders in the Fool Land. This provocation is a very popular trick with swindlers. It is very likely that the duchess has no billions at all. It is supposed at that Russia will have to invest some money in the business named Anastasia, which is promising great dividends. It seems to be a financial pyramid designed to cheat people out of their money. By the way, the dividends are promised to be very great. According to the film Predetermined meeting by Oleg Uralov that was televised in Russia on June 18, a part of the International Monetary Fund and US National Currency Reserve founded in 1913 are based on the Tsar family money. It could be expected that if the Tsar family money is restituted to Russia, its debts will be written off, and the financial collapse of the West is inevitable.

It is a rather fantastic version, as property redistribution can hardly be organized on the six continents; however, there is still some reason for this version: some problems of Russia's financial sphere can be settled with the help of the Tsar stamp.

At the same time, the heir problem arises. To recognize the dynasty, it is necessary to find out whether the old lady has any descendants. Otherwise, Russia may face great problems with more heirs wishing to get the money back.

I do not believe in the story, because prophecies of Monk Abel are presented here as evidence. It may seem strange that temporal people refer to prophecies as proofs. The monk forecasted theexact date of Bilikhodze's revival and her previous birth.

Russian Orthodox Church has prophecies fixed by church people close to the elders, who later become saints. However, the Church treats the prophecies rather cautiously.

Priest from the Nizhny Novgorod Alexandro-Nevsky catherdal Igor Pchelintsev commented on the prophecies especially for PRAVDA.Ru: "I take a rather skeptical view of the published prophecies, because such prophecies are so much speculated on. As for Monk Abel's prophecies, I think they are all nonsense, which causes morbid mythology among the people. On the other hand, I would not like to lessen tortious action of such literature as the prophecies. Such publications and books make church life similar to mythology, substitutes actual spiritual problems with speculations in prophecies."

At the same time the intrigue is developing. The other day, information appeared that Russia will soon have to meet not only with the pseudo-Anastasia, but with the pseudo-Bilikhodze as well. As it turned out, Natalya Bilikhodze died in Russia two years ago due to old age and poor living conditions, which were not maintained ot a proper level by the people from her fund.

Does this mean that after her death in December 2000, Natalya Bilikhodze rose from the dead in 2002? By the way, the death of Natalya Bilikhodze was officially confirmed.

We are now to wait for some time to see who is to emerge next in connection with the story, because de-canonization disputes are likely to have some serious grounds. PRAVDA.Ru is inclined to stake on the possibility that Anastasia's death will be soon officially be announced, and, after that, a rich heir to the Tsar family money is to appear. This is likely to be a young, strong, and ambitious man, desiring a high position in society.

Who is the candidate? This question is probably the most interesting one. Make your stakes!

Yelena Kiseleva
PRAVDA.Ru

Translated by Maria Gousseva


Read the original in Russian: http://pravda.ru/main/2002/07/03/43591.html
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 15, 2005, 07:26:23 PM
Thank you, very interesting! She looks more like Anastasia than any other claimant I've seen.

Is this true?

It is interesting that the documents concerning the second law suit by Anastasia-the imposter (Andersen) have been placed in a strong box in Copenhagen and cannot be declassified until the end of the 21st century

If so, WHY? And why wait so long? Even the youngest of us won't live that long! Since we know from DNA that she wasn't Anastasia, what could the secret scandal be?

Edit: hey wait a minute, isn't Denmark also the country that will not allow their royal pictures to be seen? Maybe it's just a weird law, or more?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 15, 2005, 08:34:36 PM
Quote

It is interesting that the documents concerning the second law suit by Anastasia-the imposter (Andersen) have been placed in a strong box in Copenhagen and cannot be declassified until the end of the 21st century

If so, WHY? And why wait so long? Even the youngest of us won't live that long! Since we know from DNA that she wasn't Anastasia, what could the secret scandal be?

Edit: hey wait a minute, isn't Denmark also the country that will not allow their royal pictures to be seen? Maybe it's just a weird law, or more?


I'm not following, Annie.  What more are you thinking could be the reason?  And WHOSE royal pictures are not allowed there?  The Danish imperial family or the Romanovs.  

Sorry to be dense tonight, just not aware of this particular law.  Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 16, 2005, 06:10:31 AM
Quote

I'm not following, Annie.  What more are you thinking could be the reason?


I have no idea. It reminds me of the JFK papers being sealed for 100 years- if there was no secret, why? We know she wasn't AN, but there could be some other scandal. I have no idea what.


 
Quote
And WHOSE royal pictures are not allowed there?  The Danish imperial family or the Romanovs.  




Then I remembered someone posted here somewhere something about Denmark not allowing people to look at their archives and locked their pics up for a certain number of years, I don't remember exactly. So it might not just be that case. I wonder if it's the same thing with those documents, what's going on, and why?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 16, 2005, 07:25:28 AM
It could just be standard protocol ? Many archives are or were sealed for 100 years after a death, Windsor comes to mind and I think some presidential as well.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 16, 2005, 08:17:08 AM
Quote
It could just be standard protocol ? Many archives are or were sealed for 100 years after a death, Windsor comes to mind and I think some presidential as well.


Oh, I didn't know that. Sure takes a lot of the mystery and intrigue out of it, but it makes more sense.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 16, 2005, 12:45:07 PM
Could it be that they don't want any family remaining before releasing information? That way there isn't new lawsuits or what not?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 16, 2005, 05:06:57 PM
I think with medical records it is 75 years, but I could be wrong...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 10:21:15 AM
Ok guys.. I am going to jump the gun here...
This article that I am typing up is a LARGE article that I have been working on now and then since it was requested. So... I am going to put up the article in sections, and not all at once, since I am still typing it out...

Ok ... Section One

The Case of a New Anastasia: The Record says she died - The Legend says she lives

In the past four decades a fascinating legend has grown up around the pretty, elegantly gowned girl in the picture above. (picture one) She is the Grand Duchess Anastasia, the youngest daughter of Czar Nicholas II of Russia. According to historians, she was murdered with her family by Bolshevicks in the Ural Mountain town of Ekaterinburg in 1918. But stories have persisted that one member of the royal family escaped and usually, in the stories, the survivor was Anastasia. Over the years various women have come forward to claim this identity - out of desire for money or fame, or perhaps simply out of the delusions. One sickly lady in Germany has been fighting for many years to be recognized as the grand duchess. Suddenly a new claimant has appeared - A lady who has lived 40 years in Illinois. She has written a book to support her claim. The story of her startling assertions - and the evidence both for and against believing it - makes on these pages an absorbing addition to the legend of Anastasia
The sky-looking lady below (picture two) goes by the name of Eugenia Smith, and she has lived in Smith like obscurity in the Chicago area for the past 40 years. Now, in a book called Anastasia, the Autobiography of the Grand Duchess of Russia, she claims recognition as the daughter of the czar and czarina between whose portraits she sits. The book, which will be published this month by Robert Speller and Sons, presents in extraordinary rich detail Mrs. Smith's story of the life in the imperial family, of the  tragic chain of events leading up to the assassination, of  that grim and bloody event itself and of her miraculous escape and hectic flight from Russia.
     The authenticity of Eugenia Smith's claim is certain to be the subject of interest and controversy.  Students and historians of the period agree with the virtual unanimity that none of the 11 people (the czar, his wife, their five children, the family physician and  three retainers) brought into that execution chamber in the town of Ekaterinburg on the night of July 16, 1918 could possibly have got out alive. But Mrs. Smith says that she did get out, and her publishers have been able to gather some scientific corroboration for her story (pp. 108,109)
     Mrs. Smith's claim, of course, flatly contradicts those of several others who have preceded her. There have been Anastasias reported in Russia, Canada and Ashville, N.C. Until Mrs. Smith came along the person whose claims were most seriously advanced is the woman named Anna Anderson whose story was used more or less as the basis for  the 1956 movie Anastasia, starring Ingrid Bergman.  Anna Anderson first turned up in Berlin after she had jumped into a canal in a suicide attempt. For 40 years she has said she was Anastasia, and her claim has aroused worldwide interest (LIFE, Feb. 14, 1955). Partisans, among them relatives of the Imperial Romanov family, were convinced she possessed information and knowledge of the family so intimate that she must be Anastasia. Others were sure she was a fake and pointed out that she seemed dreadfully reluctant to speak Russian. Her case has repeatedly gone before German courts and still another hearing is scheduled for this fall. Now ill and poor, Anna Anderson lives a recluse in a Black Forest village.

When Eugenia Smith, who says she is 62, first brought her manuscript to the publishers last March, she didn't claim to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia at all. She said that she had been a friend of the grand duchess in Russia and, after the escape from Ekaterinburg, in Romania. Before her death many years ago Anastasia had entrusted her with notes on which the manuscript was based. Pressed by the Spellers for details on her friend Anastasia's death, its time and place, Mrs. Smith could not seem to give exact answers. Even at a quick glace Robert Speller Jr., who is an expert on royal genealogy, could see that the author of this book, whoever she was, knew a great deal about the imperial family. The Spellers asked Mrs. Smith if she was willing to take a lie-detector test to support her story of the manuscript's origins. She agreed and then departed - without telling them where she lived or where she was going.
     It was a month before Mrs. Smith turned up again and in the meantime the Spellers studied the manuscript carefully. Their initial impression held up; the author did have an astonishing familiarity with her subject. In detail so minute as to include the colors of wallpaper, this Anastasia reported conversations, trips, incidents both previously known and unknown, and altogether displayed a staggering inside knowledge. More than that, she seemed to handle all this material with a sure, over-all understanding. She reflected the opinions, the royal prejudices of the House of Romanov. Her account of the family imprisonment, of the terrible final moments and the escape (next page) was told with emotion and conviction. But, the Spellers wondered, who was Mrs.  Smith? That she had lied to them seemed evident. The manuscript mentioned the death of Lenin, for instance, which took place in 1924. Mrs. Smith said her friend Anastasia had died in 1919 or 1920.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 10:38:08 AM
Ok.. There are picture references in this article... Here are the pictures referenced:

Picture 01:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/67_1.jpg)

Picture 02:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 09:10:09 PM
Ok.. Here is the second part of this article out of.. maybe 4/5? not sure, as it is very long. And I have gotten most of it typed up now! Just a page more to go! WooT!

Ok... Section Two

At their next meeting the Spellers renewed their questioning. Under the pressure Mrs. Smith suddenly said she was Anastasia herself. After making this astounding statement, she went on to fill in the gap of time from the completion of the escape to the present.
In October, 1918, four days after the escape was completed, she married a Croatian she had met on the way out of Russia. The marriage did not work out; one child, a daughter died in infancy. Finally the girl got her husbands permission to go to America. She landed in New York (in 1922 by U.S. immigration records), stopped off briefly in Detroit and then went to Chicago. There she did remarkably well for herself in a wide variety of jobs. She was a salesgirl, a model, a milliner, a lecturer; she developed, manufactured and sold perfume. During World War II she was a technician on the assembly of the famous Norden bombsight. She became a U.S citizen, divorced her husband and did not remarry. She adopted the name Smith and made many friends, some of them rich and well connected. To some of these people she had confided her secret and they had urged her to declare herself Anastasia to the world. She was still reluctant to do that, she told the Spellers. She wanted to preserve her anonymity. The Spellers suggested she go ahead with the lie-detector test anyway. If it indicated that she was now telling the truth, she might at last be persuaded to stand by the manuscript as her own work.

She tells a vivid story if the murder, rescue, flight

Very late on the afternoon of July 16th, 1918, Father and the rest of us were asked by our captors to write letters to our friends and relatives, both in Russian and abroad, to the effect that we were in Sweden and that we were quite happy in our new surroundings. That evening we heard what we thought was the moving of large and heavy objects directly below us. The noise disturbed the whole household. We went to bed at 10:30 but could not sleep. The drunken voices from outside were penetrating. (I was to learn later that all the guards outside the house that day were given vodka to drink - as much as they could consume. None of them yet knew what was to take place inside that night.)
   About 11:30 that night, Yurovsky, the commander of the guard went into Father&#8217;s room. Soon Father appeared in the doorway and, in a faltering voice, told us to hurry and get ready as we had to leave within the next 40 minutes.  While we were washing and dressing, we prayed and cried quietly.  We were almost ready when another guard came in, telling is not to pack any of our belongings as there was no time. We took only a few essential things.
   A man came into the dining room where the family had assembled, together with our family physician, Dr. Botkin; Ivan Kharitonov, our cook; Anna Demidova, the parlor-maid; and Trup, Father's valet. With his lantern shedding a feeble light, the man now led us along the hall and down the stairway and through courtyard. Father's strong and protective arms were carrying Alexei, who was crying from fear. We entered a room with not one single piece of furniture in it. About eight men were present. They were dressed partly in civilian and partly in foreign military uniforms. All had revolvers stuck in their holsters and hand grenades attached to their belts. Father held Alexei until three chairs were brought. Then he placed Alexei on the middle chair and left the room. Mother sat down on the left side of Alexei. In four or five minutes the men separated into two groups as Father walked between them, followed by Yurovsky. Father's face was ashen and an old scar on his forehead was red like fire. His left shoulder and the left side of his face just below his eye were twitching. He pulled a handkerchief from his pocket, wiped his face and took the chair next to Alexei on the boy's right side. What Yurovsky had said to him in that room no one will ever know.
   When Mother saw Father enter she started to raise herself, trembled and fell back into the chair, her head slumping to her right shoulder, toward Alexei. Then I screamed and grabbed Dr. Botkin's arm. While I was screaming Yurovsky said something, exactly what I did not hear. Simultaneously, I heard other screams....
   After this I was only partly conscious. I felt no pain and did not see anyone fall, but I remember my lips were freezing cold and I felt clammy and there was a violent ringing in my ears. I wanted to get up but I felt as if I were paralyzed and lost consciousness entirely.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 09:15:49 PM
Cont....

Following the execution of her family, Mrs. Smith's account goes on, she awoke after a period of unconsciousness and found herself on a cot in a  tiny cellar room underneath a peasant cottage. For weeks her wounds were cared for by a nameless woman. She was also questioned closely about the imperial family and her imprisonment by two men who told her that the whole countryside was being searched by the Communists and that she would be taken to safety as soon as she was fit to travel. Eventually, they took her on a six-day journey by wagon to a village where she was turned over to a man named Alexander, a former Russian Officer who had known that Czar's family and had been wounded fighting the Germans. Alexander was her rescuer; it was he who had brought her to the peasant cottage after the execution. He had stopped off in Ekaturinburg on his way to join the White Russian armies, heard about the plight of the family and ingratiated himself with the guards outside the house where they were being held. As the story is told in Mrs. Smith's book :

Alexander told us what happened. "On the night of July 16th," he said, "some of the guards left drunk from their various posts. With several other guards I entered the courtyard. I heard a truck drive up to the house about 11 p.m. I offered to help the driver and he accepted. It flashed through my mind that this truck might be for the purpose of taking the family away secretly. After a while the driver fell asleep, giving me the opportunity to get into the back of the truck. I lay down flat in the back. Imagine the shock when I felt warm, twitching bodies thrown next to me. I knew then what had actually happened."
     From fear, Alexander remained in the truck, horror-stricken and inable to move, realizing his dangerous position. He had no choice but to lie there quietly next to the still warm bodies. If discovered, he too would have been shot.
     The truck moved rapidly out of the courtyard through the streets, then more slowly over the bumpy country roads, the wheels sliding out of one deep rut into another. Alexander heard a moan among the bodies. As the truck turned at a bend in the road, he picked up two of the bodies and tossed them into some roadside bushes. He himself jumped from the truck and lay among the bushes until the drunken guards, who were on horseback far behind, had passed. Then, returning to the bodies, he quickly examined them. One appeared to be lifeless, but he wrapped the live one with his coat and carried it a long way to the first house he could find. It was the house with the dugout underneath and I, of course, was the survivor.

Alexander paid the peasants to care for the wounded girl and, since he felt his presence in the cottage added to the danger of her being caught, instructed them to bring her to him, when she could travel. Now Alexander and Anastasia began the long trip to safety. Over a period of several weeks they traveled 1,500 miles southwestward across Russia. On one occasion they took a train, but they walked most of the distance to the border of Bukovina, then a province of Austria-Hungary, now in Romania and the Ukraine. Because his wound flared up again, Alexander could not complete the journey, and the girl went ahead with other refugee companions they had met on the way. Mrs. Smith's book ends as she is being cared for in the home of a Bukovina family :

I sat on a low stool, shivering, while one of the girls took off my muddy boots and the other brought pails of water from outdoors which they poured into a large kettle on the wood-burning stove. My muddy stockings were stuck to my feet. Warm water was poured over them to take off the worst of the plastered mud. The mother took a sharp knife and scraped some salt into a fresh pail of warm water to serve as disinfectant. By the time we finished with my foot, the supper was ready. It consisted of warm  mamaliga - a yellow mush made out of maize - with warm milk poured over it. It was a new dish to me, but nothing ever tasted better.
     The warm milk soon stopped the chattering of my teeth. The good girls had already made up a small wooden bed for me, with linen sheet spread over a narrow mattress. They had hardly left the room when I was fast asleep.
When I woke up the next day, to my surprise I could not find my wet traveling clothes. Instead I found a new outfit: everything from a cotton dress to a pair of shoes. This humble family had presented me with Sunday clothes belonging to their youngest daughter, six months my junior. The girls told me that the men had been waiting for me since 11 in the morning.
     "What time is it now?" I asked.
     "Four in the afternoon," they laughed. "Several times the men came in and looked to see if you were asleep or dead, and were reassured."  Evidently I felt safe at last. At long last I had found peace with this unknown, but friendly, family which had taken me into its midst and made me a welcome member.
     It was October 24th, 1918...for me a new day...and the beginning of a new life.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 09:19:07 PM
Part Three

Her strongest support comes from the lie detector test

The most convincing evidence in support of Eugenia Smith's claim to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia are the results of the lie-detector examinations given her last spring. Over a period of several weeks she underwent 30 hours of such tests, and in the opinion of her examiner they offer powerful proof. Mrs. Smith's examiner was Cleve Backster, a 39-year-old lie-detector expert in New York who is regarded as one of the outstanding men in the field. The tool of Backster's trade, the polygraph machine, is a combination of instruments which pick up and record changes in the rate of breathing, pulse beat, blood pressure and electrical conductivity of the skin. Generally speaking, these changes occur when a subject is fearful about being caught in a lie, and they remain - except to delicate instruments - unseen.

Though she had told the Spellers that she was Anastasia, Mrs. Smith insisted that they not tell Backster. She said that she still wanted the book published as if the author herself were dead. The Spellers decided to postpone any further discussion on this matter until the tests were completed. Thus Backster began his examination by trying to determine the truthfulness of Mrs. Smith's original statement that she was Anastasia's friend.
     Among the questions asked were:

     Were you born in Russia?
     Did you know the Grand Duchess Anastasia in 1919?
     Did you help treat wounds Anastasia received on the night of July 16, 1918?
     Did you attend school classes with the Grand Duchess Maria [Anastasia's sister]?
     Did you ever dine with the family of Nicholas II?
     Did you know Anastasia during November 1918?


     Looking at the record results of Mrs. Smith's responses to his questions, Backster was disturbed. The results seem vague and indefinite.  Mrs. Smith appeared to answer truthfully when she said "Yes" to the questions about attending classes with Maria and dining with the imperial family. Yet her responses were not clear on her affirmative answers to the questions about knowing Anastasia.
     When Backster discussed these inconsistencies with the Spellers, they revealed what she had told them about her identity. Backster then confronted Mrs. Smith directly with his new information, and she told him, too, that she was Anastasia. He began new tests. A sampling of some of the questions he asked during appointments over the next few weeks follows:

     Was your Father Nicholas II?
     Was your mother Alexandra, czarina of Russia?
     Where you born on June 18, 1901?
     Did you sisters scream first [as Mrs. Smith in her manuscript had said they did just before the moments of execution]?
     Did your mother die of heart attack? [Mrs. Smith had claimed that she mother's heart had failed and that she collapsed and died seconds before the volley was fired.]
     Are you Anastasia, Grand Duchess of Russia?

     
By the time Backster had studied all the results of his renewed testing, he was virtually positive that his subject was Anastasia. His conviction was based on his interpretation of all Mrs. Smith's answers--not just her apparent truth responses. For example, her affirmative replies to questions about her identity, her birthday, all indicated she was telling the truth.
     But her responses were indefinite on the questions about the way her mother died and whether his sisters screamed before she did at the execution. Discussion with Mrs. Smith about these after the polygraph produced for Backster and the Spellers a reasonable explanation.
She confessed that she lied, that she, and not her sisters, had screamed in terror just before the shots rang out. The czarina started to rise then and turn to her daughter; when the assassins fired, most of the bullets meant for Anastasia hit her mother. To cover up her shame for her terrified outburst she denied her scream and invented the story about her mother&#8217;s heart attack.
     Though both the Spellers and Backster now felt sure that Eugenia Smith and Anastasia were the same person, they decided to get additional support for the polygraph evidence. They were aware that it is possible for a person with delusions about her identity to "beat" the lie detector. Such a person, a schizophrenic, for example, might be unaware of the real truth, and her reactions could indicate she was telling the truth when she was actually lying. A psychiatrist, one of the most respected in New York, had four lengthy interviews with Mrs. Smith. The final report read..."In my opinion, there is no evidence of delusion formation or other schizophrenic symptoms, not of other psychosis. The findings of these interviews have indicated to me the possibility of Mrs. Eugenia Smith being the Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia. In giving this opinion, however, I have naturally been unable to know, to ask about, and to verify all matters pertinent to the establishing of Mrs. Smith's identity.
     "I may add, however, that if Mrs. Smith proves to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, as now seems to me possible, her extraordinary survival in good psychological health may be due to certain influences in her life. Foremost would be the sustaining effect of her intense devotion to her family, and especially to her father. Of further significance would be the fact that (according to her statement in the psychiatric examination and in her manuscript) immediately after emerging from the period of  unconsciousness which began with the mass family tragedy, she had -- under the extremist necessity -- to assume a new and different identity from that under which she had previously lived. While there would now seem to have been no amnesia for her earlier life, the duress and practical needs of this period after the tragedy would have drawn her into an active participation in this second identity, permitting at the same time a lasting, vivid, and emotional memory of the period preceding the family tragedy."
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 09:21:05 PM
Ok... Take a deep breath... I have to complete the rest of this article before posting anymore  :-X But the good news is, that... I'm almost there!!!

I apologize if you see any errors in spelling, or the occasional "the" that is suppost to be "to" ... I've tried to fix any thing I find. If you find any, slap my wrist and let me know.. I'll fix it up.

Cheers  ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 17, 2005, 10:24:31 PM
Annnd... Finally... the last chapter to this article..

Details of her face and handwriting undermine her royal claim

The passage of time has obscured or obliterated many of the facts which might point to the correct conclusion about whether or not Eugenia Smith is Anastasia. Most of the best witnesses are dead; the vital clues are dust.  Careful study of the available evidence does not always support Backster's positive findings in the polygraph examinations. Some other experts, prominent in their own fields, flatly disagree with him.
     Two anthropologists, Dr. Edward Hunt of Harvard and Dr. Carleton Coon of the University of Pennsylvania, working independently of each other, arrived at the conclusion that Mrs. Smith is not Anastasia.  They based their opinions on a comparison of six authentic Anastasia photographs with six photographs of Mrs. Smith taken over a period from about 1920 to present. After taking detailed facial measurements in both sets of pictures, Dr. Coon found that the sides of the photographed Anastasia face are significantly straighter and more parallel then the sides shown in Mrs. Smith's pictures. Such a difference, according to Dr. Coon, cannot be explained as a change brought on by age. Dr. Hunt found differences in the noses. "[Mrs. Smith's] nose", he writes, "is very unlike that of the grand duchesses. The nasal root is broad and low; whereas that of [Anastasia] was quite narrow...[Mrs. Smith] has a straight nasal profile, and the tip of her nose is small and delicate; whereas [Anastasia] has a  bulbous nasal tip...Even a reset broken nose in a women such as the [grand duchess] would unlikely to end up so different as we see in Mrs. Smith... Still another conspicuous difference is the philtrum of the upper lip (the vertical indentation running between the nose and upper lip). [Mrs. Smith] in all her pictures showed almost no philtrum at all, whereas Anastasia had a markedly conspicuous one..."

Last month an expert took specimens of Mrs. Smith's handwriting in Russian and compared them with authentic Anastasia script. Because Mrs. Smith did not make available any of her past handwriting, the expert was unable to judge its development over the years. However, in comparing samples from Anastasia and from Mrs. Smith, the analyst pointed out "numerous negative factors."
     "In gross appearance alone the two sets of documents are markedly different," the expert's report reads. "When examined letter by letter, the differences are even sharper... All individuals learning to write in any language are taught from the copybook standard -- that is, the form used in school instruction. Some deviation from the copybook standard develops with practice and maturity. The writing in the Anastasia documents shows a perceptible amount of such deviation; it is fluently and skillfully written. But the corresponding letter in the Smith documents shows a deviation which could not develop progressively from the Anastasia formation." The expert goes on to point out that Mrs. Smith's Russian writing contains errors in her use of the alphabet which completely change the meaning of the words - "Much as if in English, the word 'doll' were transcribed to read 'dolt'" Though the expert qualifies the report by saying that the best comparisons could be arrived at if early samples of Mrs. Smith's writing were available, the basic finding is that "there are elements of internal evidence which lend strength to the conclusion that Anastasia and Mrs. Smith are not the same person."
Perhaps the most widely accepted evidence of identity lies in positive recognition, the statement by someone who should know that this person is who she says she is. There are people alive today who knew the girl, Anastasia; Romanov cousins live in the U.S and Europe.
     One person willing to meet Mrs. Smith and try to check her identity was Mrs. Paul Chavchavadze of Wellfleet, Mass., the former Princess Nina of Russia, a cousin of Anastasia's and exactly her age. She and Anastasia played together often until they were both about 13 and Princess Nina's family went to England. Mrs. Chavchavadze said that in her belief Mrs. Smith could not possibly be Anastasia. "The whole face is wrong," she said. "Everything, the nose, the ears, the mouth, is to small. The Russian accent is not at all right. When I wanted to talk about our childhood, she said that I must understand that she has a terrible memory for such things."
     Mrs. Chavchavadze's opinions were supported by others. Newspaper stories about the imminent publication of Mrs. Smith's book prompted some people to write and say they had known Mrs. Smith or known of her, and did not believe she was Anastasia. A Russian woman in Chicago said that she had given Mrs. Smith Russian lessons in the 1930s and that she spoke it like a Romanian peasant. In Paris a woman named Tatiana Botkin, who had known the czar's children and is the daughter of the physician executed with the imperial family, read Mrs. Smith's manuscript and compiled a 20-page list of specific points which, in Mme. Botkin's opinion, were errors of various kinds. Mme. Botkin herself had written a book about the royal family's last days. She points out several places in the Smith manuscript where incidents are reported in much the same way she reported them in her book; in fact, Mrs. Smith makes some of the same errors Mme. Botkin made. A friend of Tatiana Botkin's traveled to New York recently to meet Mrs. Smith. In their conversation Mrs. Smith referred Mme. Botkin as "Tatiana." Mme. Botkin's recollection is that the children of the czar invariably addressed her by the nickname "Tanya."

Last June Mrs. Smith moved into a new apartment in New York. It is virtually a shrine to her insistence that she is Anastasia. The walls are dotted with religious icons, medals and imperial family pictures. Framed portraits of the czar and czarina dominate one wall of the living room.  Mrs. Smith likes to sit there and look at them. She expresses the desire to live out her life in peace and privacy, neither of which, at least in the next few weeks, she seems likely to get.
People will want to ask her many questions; why, for example, she has waited so long to claim she is Anastasia? (Answer: she hasn't. Over the years she has told many friends the story and has worked on various versions of the book.)
There will be loud accusations that the whole thing is a combination of imaginative lies and ardent research, and that she is an adventuress out to make a lot of money. (There are unsubstantiated stories that a great fortune of the czar's variously estimated as high as $20 million, has been sitting in an English bank since before the Russian Revolution and only awaits a rightful claimant.)
     Some people will surely want to know more about her husband, the mysterious Croatian who, according to Mrs. Smith, was unaware that she was Anastasia. (A man whose name is identical to the one Mrs. Smith gave for her husband was traced recently through the Yugoslavian address she had listed in her U.S. immigration papers. The man was found living in a poor hut with his wife. He said he'd never known anybody named Eugenia or anybody from Chicago or had ever been married before. He wanted only to be left alone with his cows.)
     It is probable that all the controversy will not bother Mrs. Smith too much. She signs her name Anastasia with a flourish and when someone mentioned a past Anastasia pretender to her not long ago, she clenched her fists and said in an accent whose origin no one has precisely fixed, "Now I will fight them like cats and dogs and I will sue anybody who says one word against my family."
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga on February 18, 2005, 03:11:08 AM
That is rather sad. Or should I say, she.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on February 18, 2005, 06:48:51 AM
Quote
Anastasia Romanova Is Still Living, Expert Argues (Izvestia)
Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin, a historian, reported on an Izvestia website forum that Anastasia Romanova is still alive
 
by George Watts
issued on 27.06.02
 
Dr. Vladelen Sirotkin, a historian, reported on an Izvestia website forum that Anastasia Romanova is still living. He maintains that genetics experts carried out 22 specialized studies. Besides that, photograph specialists also conducted comparative expertise studies of young Anastasia and the present elderly woman. Handwriting analyses were also carried out.
All these studies have confirmed that the youngest daughter of Czar Nicholas II, Anastasia (Nikolayevna) Romanova and a woman by the name of Natalia (Petrovna) Pelikhodze are one and the same person. The genetic expertise studies were carried out in Japan and Germany.
Besides that, Sirotkin maintains that there is documentary proof that Anastasia managed to escape from the murderer of the Czarist family - Yurovsky. There are archive documents that confirm that on the eve of the execution of the royal family, Anastasia's godfather, a former officer of the Czarist army by the name of Verkhovsky who then served in the dreaded Checka (secret police and forerunner of the KGB) managed to secretively get Anastasia out of the Ipatiyev house (where the Czarist family was held) and together with the young girl found a hiding place in Yekaterinburg.
Anastasia and her godfather headed to the south of Russia. They were in Rostov-on-Don and the Crimea. In 1919 they settled down in Abkhazia. Subsequently, Verkhovsky protected the young Anastasia in Abkhazia, in the Svanetia Mountains and Tbilisi.
However, Sirotkin points out, there were more than 300 reports and claims that Anastasia had died. In the period between 1918 and 2002 there were 32 reports about living Anastasias, and each of them had "died" 10 or 15 times. In reality, there were only two Anastasias. "Anastasia" Andersen, a Polish Jewess, who filed two law suits in the 20s-70s of the 20th century and Anastasia (Nikolayevna) Romanova (Pelikhodze).
It is interesting that the documents concerning the second law suit by Anastasia-the imposter (Andersen) have been placed in a strong box in Copenhagen and cannot be declassified until the end of the 21st century.


And here is a picture of "Anastasia" :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/anya_clamit.jpg)


I don't see any resemblance to Anastasia, with the exception of the thin lips. But, she's a very elderly woman, so . . .  :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on February 18, 2005, 07:06:51 AM
Thankyou so much for typing that out for us, Laura! It's awfully nice of you!  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on February 18, 2005, 04:51:53 PM
I agree, that was interesting, Laura.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 18, 2005, 05:26:56 PM
That was an interesting read.  Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 18, 2005, 05:36:38 PM
Anytime! I love contributing to forums!
I'm glad you guys took the time to read it!  ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 18, 2005, 06:26:00 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Michelle on February 20, 2005, 11:51:13 PM
Personally, I think she looks rather peculiar.  I know of course that she's over 100, but I'm just saying.  I'm 17.  Do you guys think I'd live to see that box with those AA documents opened? ;D

The article seems to be rather confusing.  Did it say that her DNA was analyzed and it came out positive? ???  And her photos were analyzed as well?  And then it said that this Natalya actually died two years before "Anastasia" started to make herself known? :o  It's difficult to follow in some parts. :-/
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 21, 2005, 08:10:35 AM
Quote
 I'm 17.  Do you guys think I'd live to see that box with those AA documents opened? ;D



If it's 100 years after AA's death that would be 2084. Assuming you were born in 1987 that will make you 97. Good luck and take care of yourself!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on February 21, 2005, 08:40:46 AM
Quote

If it's 100 years after AA's death that would be 2084. Assuming you were born in 1987 that will make you 97. Good luck and take care of yourself!


Well I definitely won't be here.  ::)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on February 21, 2005, 08:51:03 AM
Me either. I'd be 123  :-/

My kids are around Michelle's age, hope they make it!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Abby on February 21, 2005, 09:33:11 AM
Quote

If it's 100 years after AA's death that would be 2084. Assuming you were born in 1987 that will make you 97. Good luck and take care of yourself!



I am three years older than you Michelle and I am going to exercise and eat good food so that I can live to see it too!! ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on February 21, 2005, 10:59:59 AM
Well, my girls are 3 yrs and 18 months!!  With medical technology the way it is, perhaps they will be there to find out what the papers say.  Given of course, that they are interested in whay will be ancient history!  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 28, 2005, 06:44:55 PM
Thanks Grand Duke!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: hikaru on March 24, 2005, 08:54:06 AM
Dear Helen ( and dear other persons!)

I was quite suprised that no one of you never mentioned the book of this Anastasiya Romanova,
which was printed on 2002  in Moscow with the title
" Y am Anastasiya Romanova".
Personally, I liked this book.
even if it is fake, there are a lot of details about the life in palace which I never heard about.

I recommend this book to all of you ( It is Russian).
The president of Russia Mr. Putin did welcome this Anastasiya a lot.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 24, 2005, 09:02:21 AM
Quote
Dear Helen ( and dear other persons!)

I was quite suprised that no one of you never mentioned the book of this Anastasiya Romanova,
which was printed on 2002  in Moscow with the title
" Y am Anastasiya Romanova".
Personally, I liked this book.
even if it is fake, there are a lot of details about the life in palace which I never heard about.

I recommend this book to all of you ( It is Russian).
The president of Russia Mr. Putin did welcome this Anastasiya a lot.


Thanks, Hikaru. I never heard of this book. Who is the author (ghost writer?) and where can one get it?

H

P.S. Did Mr Putin accept her as "for real" or was it just her "legendary" status regardless of who she really was?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: hikaru on March 24, 2005, 09:16:32 AM
The author is Anastasiya Romanova under the reduction of the Mr. Anatoly Gryannik.

The publishing house is "Voskresenie"
( I never heard about it)
www.voskres.boom.ru

I understood that the President gave the money to
publish this book and gave the money to her family and opened some secret's files for her.

If you want this book. I could see for it in old book store.
No problem.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 24, 2005, 10:25:54 AM
Quote
If you want this book. I could see for it in old book store.
No problem.


It sounds like it may be an interesting thing to read. Thanks so much for the offer!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: hikaru on March 24, 2005, 10:43:53 AM
You are welcome
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 09, 2005, 11:46:23 PM
Thank you Laura, I know that was a lot of work to type in. I enjoyed reading it. Does anyone know whatever became of the woman?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Abby on April 10, 2005, 02:45:53 PM
Thank you, Laura. This afternoon me and my family went to a flea market, because the weather was so nice today, and I started rifling through one of the many bins of LIFE magazines I saw, and lo and behold, at the bottom of one of the bins I found the Oct. 18 1963 issue with the article on this woman. It was VERY interesting, and I read it in the car. One of the things that amazed me most was how her account of the execution was so similar to Yurovsky's, (right down to the chair being brought into the cellar room for the Tsarevich) yet she had no way of knowing about his Note, since it wasn't brought from the archives until Radzinsky came across it.
She also resembled Alexandra in this pic:
Eugenia: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_9.jpg)
Alix: (http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/nam1904_1.jpg)

and funny how her 'rescuer' was also named Alexander, as was Anna Anderson's rescuer.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 10, 2005, 03:32:10 PM
Anytime Lexi4, I'm happy you enjoyed the article!

Abby, Isn't the article facinating? It's one thing to read it online, it's another to see all the illustrations and such with it. Happy to see you found it!

The picture comparison that you added was quite uncanny! Althought I don't believe she was Anastasia, it's a neat comparison. Thanks!  ;D

Edit: Lexi4, from what I understand. Eugenia claimed she was Anastasia, until she and another pretender(Who claimed to be Alexei) had odd's. At which point I believe she either took back her statement, or just vanished in the crowd.
About the tiff: Eugenia had claimed to have found her long lost brother when she met an Alexei pretender. They got along great, until, Spellers and Sons said that in her book, she claims that Alexei had died and that being seen with this man would go against what she claims happend. From there, she claimed the Alexei pretender a fake, and the went for the throat of eachother. After that I believe she just dissapeared out of public eye
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Abby on April 10, 2005, 04:19:59 PM
Quote

Abby, Isn't the article facinating? It's one thing to read it online, it's another to see all the illustrations and such with it. Happy to see you found it!

The picture comparison that you added was quite uncanny! Althought I don't believe she was Anastasia, it's a neat comparison. Thanks!  ;D

Edit:


Thanks! Yes I don't think she was Anastasia either, but I couldn't help noticing ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 10, 2005, 05:49:12 PM
Abby,
That is absolutly amazing that you stumbled across that Life magazine. You never know what you will find at a flea market.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Abby on April 10, 2005, 08:41:25 PM
I know! (Of course, everytime I have been to a flea market since I became aware of the magazine, I have looked out for it -- so I finally found it) flea markets are GOLDEN! I don't want to get too carried away about how much I love flea markets. that is a topic for another thread ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 10, 2005, 09:16:47 PM
Flea Markets and Used book stores are the best!
I've found most of my Romanov collection under a few paperbacks in a used bookstore  :D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Candice on April 18, 2005, 04:33:44 PM
I don't believe for one minute this story. In my opinion Mr. Putin is in his own protective way acknowledging the truth about Anastasia, that she really did escape thus putting  research to a halt.  
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 21, 2005, 08:38:58 PM
So where is this woman now? What about any DNA testing?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: CatherineNY on April 22, 2005, 07:26:30 PM
 ???Am I getting this straight? To summarize what I think I read: This Anastasia claimant lived in (formerly) Soviet Georgia, and survived  to an old age. However, she has now died. Someone claiming to be her has been put forward in the past few years to claim Anastasia's identity. There is someone else who claims to be this "Anastasia's" son, and who calls himself "Crown Prince Anatoly."
Is that right? And if so, why is anyone taking them seriously in Russia?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 22, 2005, 08:35:52 PM
Quote
???Am I getting this straight? To summarize what I think I read: This Anastasia claimant lived in (formerly) Soviet Georgia, and survived  to an old age. However, she has now died. Someone claiming to be her has been put forward in the past few years to claim Anastasia's identity. There is someone else who claims to be this "Anastasia's" son, and who calls himself "Crown Prince Anatoly."
Is that right? And if so, why is anyone taking them seriously in Russia?

Good questions. I'd like to know all of that too.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on April 24, 2005, 05:54:59 AM
I was reading back over the Eugenia Smith article that Laura was kind enough to reproduce for us here, and it got me thinking. Do you think it's possible that at least some of what she said is the truth? I don't believe that she is Anastasia, but is it possible that she, as she claimed initially, knew Anastasia (or, at least, knew of her and what happened to her after the execution)? Do you think it's coincidental that she claimed that there were two bodies pulled from the truck, and that, ultimately, two bodies were missing from Pig's Meadow? Also, her claim that one of the people rescued from the truck was dead, as one cannot imagine Alexei surviving for very long because of his haemophilia.

Thoughts, please!

Here's the link to the Eugenia Smith thread for those that missed it:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1101353786;start=

Quote
[Alexander] had stopped off in Ekaturinburg on his way to join the White Russian armies, heard about the plight of the family and ingratiated himself with the guards outside the house where they were being held.


Are there any records of any er . . . "mysterious" guards at the house? Greg? Penny?  ??? I think we've already discussed that there weren't any Alexanders, because Anna Anderson also claimed to have been rescued by an Alexander.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 24, 2005, 11:41:26 AM
That's a good question Alice..
To be honest, if Eugenia published the book under the understanding that it was written by Anastasia, and not assuming she was Anastasia. It makes me wonder how many more would have believed. I'm sure she would have been questioned as to her sources, but... it makes me wonder nonetheless  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 01:47:41 PM
Good questions. I wondered too how she knew two bodies were missing at the time. It has only been recently that we knew for sure that two of the bodies were missing. So how did she know. I don't think she was AN either, but I do wonder who she really was. Does anyone know anything about her? What about birth records, etc. I haven't done a lot of research about her, just read the link. So I am sure a lot of this information is available somewhere.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Jutte on April 24, 2005, 02:14:29 PM
is the suggestion then, that eugenia smith was not as she claimed anastasia, and knew full well that she wasnt, but was in some way connected to the romanovs or their assassins because of what she knew about the murders? that's interesting...

what is anyone's opinion on this? who do you suggest eugenia smith is?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on April 24, 2005, 05:30:36 PM
Quote
is the suggestion then, that eugenia smith was not as she claimed anastasia, and knew full well that she wasnt, but was in some way connected to the romanovs or their assassins because of what she knew about the murders? that's interesting...

what is anyone's opinion on this? who do you suggest eugenia smith is?


Yes, I'm toying with the idea that maybe she knew Anastasia after the execution. IF Anastasia survived the execution, I'm theorising that Eugenia Smith knew about it, and about how she survived, where she went, etc. That theory, of course, makes a big assumption - that Anastasia survived.

This could also be applicable to Anna Anderson, and could explain, to some extent, how she knew the details that she knew.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on April 24, 2005, 05:45:33 PM
Quote

Yes, I'm toying with the idea that maybe she knew Anastasia after the execution. IF Anastasia survived the execution, I'm theorising that Eugenia Smith knew about it, and about how she survived, where she went, etc. That theory, of course, makes a big assumption - that Anastasia survived.

This could also be applicable to Anna Anderson, and could explain, to some extent, how she knew the details that she knew.


Alice, is there any proof that Eugenia Smith was in Russia at the time of the revolution?  If one could place her in Siberia in 1918, this seems almost plausible.  If the real grand duchess then died, perhaps there was no one to refute Eugenia's story.  

And whatever happened to her?  I know she dropped out of sight after her altercation with the false Alexei, but you never hear of her anywhere anymore.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on April 24, 2005, 06:21:24 PM
Quote
Alice, is there any proof that Eugenia Smith was in Russia at the time of the revolution?


Not that I know of, Denise. Claimant-wise, most of the attention has been directed at Anna Anderson. It'd be interesting to learn more about Eugenia Smith, IMO.

I'm trying to get ahold of Eugenia's book, I'll post if I have any luck . . . it might shed some light on this subject.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on April 24, 2005, 07:29:23 PM
What was the name of her book?  I have some good used book sources...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Abby on April 24, 2005, 07:36:49 PM
Autobiography of HIH Anastasia Nicholaevna of Russia, New York: Spellman, 1963

:)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 24, 2005, 07:41:16 PM
Quote

And whatever happened to her?  I know she dropped out of sight after her altercation with the false Alexei, but you never hear of her anywhere anymore.


I think she died in 1997...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on April 24, 2005, 07:54:12 PM
Quote

I think she died in 1997...


Yep.  Wikipedia lists it.  She was buried at an Orthodox Church.  Said that during her life whe refused DNA testing.  

Funny thing about her is that she FAILED the lie detector asking if she knew Anastasia, but passed the test asking if she WAS Anastasia.  How strange is that?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 24, 2005, 07:56:53 PM
Quote
Funny thing about her is that she FAILED the lie detector asking if she knew Anastasia, but passed the test asking if she WAS Anastasia.  How strange is that?


She was probably mentally ill too. Lie detector tests are usually not accurate on people who have mental illness...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 24, 2005, 08:00:21 PM
Did Eugenia ever meet Anna Anderson? I can just see the fur flying!   :o ;) ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on April 24, 2005, 08:05:22 PM
Quote
Did Eugenia ever meet Anna Anderson? I can just see the fur flying!   :o ;) ;D


I don't think so.  I suppose this is a "shallow" thing to say, but Eugenia LOOKED more the part of royalty than AA.  AA really began to look pretty wiped out and her standard of living got very bad.  At least in the photos I've seen of Eugenia, she always looked well dressed and in control of her faculties.

But neither of them really looked like the IF or GDA.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga on April 24, 2005, 09:55:02 PM
Quote
Did Eugenia ever meet Anna Anderson? I can just see the fur flying!   :o ;) ;D


Meow!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jaa on April 24, 2005, 09:57:19 PM
There were experts consulted on the physical resemblance. This is part of the reason there was less interest in ES:

"Two anthropologists, Dr. Edward Hunt of Harvard and Dr. Carleton Coon of the University of Pennsylvania, working independently of each other, arrived at the conclusion that Mrs. Smith is not Anastasia."
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1101353786;start=25

"One famous anthropologist, Dr. Otto Reche, studied photographs and testified in court that Anastasia and Anna Anderson had to be either the same person or identical twins. In 1977 a prominent forensic expert, Dr. Moritz Furtmayr, identified Anderson as Anastasia."
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/lostprince/insider_duchess.html

Note the 1963 publication date of Eugenia Smith's book. By this time, there were many books and articles on the IF available. There were also a fairly significant number people claiming to be Anastasia and Alexei, as well as stories about the survival of one or the other; it would not have been far-fetched to suppose two "survivors."
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 24, 2005, 10:37:50 PM
I'm not Greg or Penny, but I have been pointing out since around 1996 that Eugenia Smith is the only one out of the many claimants who correctly stated the number of missing bodies from the Koptyaki "grave". While I have continued to find this very interesting, until now, no one else has.

Whoever wrote the book correctly noted that there were Imperial officiers in Ekaterinburg at the time and provided what I thought was a credible explanation for the two missing bodies. "Alexander", one of these officers supposedly   rescued two bodies from the truck carrying the Family from the Ipatiev House, likely at the time the truck got stuck in the mud and the driver left it to go get help. Since all of this fit exactly with what we later came to know as true, it seemed at least possible that whoever wrote this was either a survivor or a rescuer.

Smith came from Romania, and "Anna Anderson" supposedly spent time there after allegedly escaping from Russia, so it also seems at least possible that Romania is somehow connected with the legends of Ekaterinburg survivors.

I think it fairly obvious that Smith herself, who in no way resembled any of the Imperial Family, excluded herself with some finality when she declined DNA testing. Who she was and what connection she had with all of this has always been of interest to me.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 10:43:08 PM
Quote
I'm not Greg or Penny, but I have been pointing out since around 1996 that Eugenia Smith is the only one out of the many claimants who correctly stated the number of missing bodies from the Koptyaki "grave". While I have continued to find this very interesting, until now, no one else has.

Whoever wrote the book correctly noted that there were Imperial officiers in Ekaterinburg at the time and provided what I thought was a credible explanation for the two missing bodies. "Alexander", one of these officers supposedly   rescued two bodies from the truck carrying the Family from the Ipatiev House, likely at the time the truck got stuck in the mud and the driver left it to go get help. Since all of this fit exactly with what we later came to know as true, it seemed at least possible that whoever wrote this was either a survivor or a rescuer.

Smith came from Romania, and "Anna Anderson" supposedly spent time there after allegedly escaping from Russia, so it also seems at least possible that Romania is somehow connected with the legends of Ekaterinburg survivors.

I think it fairly obvious that Smith herself, who in no way resembled any of the Imperial Family, excluded herself with some finality when she declined DNA testing. Who she was and what connection she had with all of this has always been of interest to me.

I am really curious about her too, Denise. It would seem she was connected in some way.
Not to long ago I read a novel (fiction) by Steve Berry called  The Romanov Prophecy. It has an interesting premise. You might like it.
Anyway, I really would like to know more about Eugenia. I understand she lived in Illinois as do I so there must be a trail somewhere. Any suggestions as to where to start.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on April 25, 2005, 01:47:39 AM
Quote
I'm not Greg or Penny, but I have been pointing out since around 1996 that Eugenia Smith is the only one out of the many claimants who correctly stated the number of missing bodies from the Koptyaki "grave". While I have continued to find this very interesting, until now, no one else has.

Whoever wrote the book correctly noted that there were Imperial officiers in Ekaterinburg at the time and provided what I thought was a credible explanation for the two missing bodies. "Alexander", one of these officers supposedly   rescued two bodies from the truck carrying the Family from the Ipatiev House, likely at the time the truck got stuck in the mud and the driver left it to go get help. Since all of this fit exactly with what we later came to know as true, it seemed at least possible that whoever wrote this was either a survivor or a rescuer.

Smith came from Romania, and "Anna Anderson" supposedly spent time there after allegedly escaping from Russia, so it also seems at least possible that Romania is somehow connected with the legends of Ekaterinburg survivors.

I think it fairly obvious that Smith herself, who in no way resembled any of the Imperial Family, excluded herself with some finality when she declined DNA testing. Who she was and what connection she had with all of this has always been of interest to me.



There's quite a few significant similarities in the two women's stories (AA and ES), isn't there? Both alleged that they were rescued by an "Alexander", both alleged that they spent time in Romania, and both alleged that they'd had a child.

If Anastasia really was rescued, there would be a circle of people that knew about it. Perhaps AA and/or ES were in this circle. I think the rumours had to have originated somewhere, and not from thin air.

There are many possibilies as to why Anastasia is missing from the grave, but one of these possibilites is that she survived. From this possibility we have the possibility that ES and/or AA knew about this.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 25, 2005, 07:39:42 AM
Quote
 Smith herself, who in no way resembled any of the Imperial Family  


Although I never thought that she was, to me she always looked a lot more like Anastasia than Anna Anderson ever did....
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on April 25, 2005, 07:43:37 AM
Quote

Although I never thought that she was, to me she always looked a lot more like Anastasia than Anna Anderson ever did....


In a way yes.  The one picture posted on theEugenia Smith thread shows an eerie resemblance to Alexandra.  

I am not sure if it is because the photos were posed that way, but there are certain pix of AA that show some of AN's expressions and mannerisms.  Of course, a picture is one moment in time.  A picture is one thing, resembling the living person is another.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jaa on April 25, 2005, 11:43:08 AM
Quote
Whoever wrote the book correctly noted that there were Imperial officiers in Ekaterinburg at the time and provided what I thought was a credible explanation for the two missing bodies. "Alexander", one of these officers supposedly   rescued two bodies from the truck carrying the Family from the Ipatiev House, likely at the time the truck got stuck in the mud and the driver left it to go get help. Since all of this fit exactly with what we later came to know as true, it seemed at least possible that whoever wrote this was either a survivor or a rescuer.

Smith came from Romania, and "Anna Anderson" supposedly spent time there after allegedly escaping from Russia, so it also seems at least possible that Romania is somehow connected with the legends of Ekaterinburg survivors.

Interesting. I had dismissed the case out of hand without noticing important details. Thanks, Lisa.

Quote
There's quite a few significant similarities in the two women's stories (AA and ES), isn't there? Both alleged that they were rescued by an "Alexander", both alleged that they spent time in Romania, and both alleged that they'd had a child.  
 
If Anastasia really was rescued, there would be a circle of people that knew about it. Perhaps AA and/or ES were in this circle. I think the rumours had to have originated somewhere, and not from thin air.  
 
There are many possibilies as to why Anastasia is missing from the grave, but one of these possibilites is that she survived. From this possibility we have the possibility that ES and/or AA knew about this.

Another possibility is that ES' story is based on AA's, as that would have been well-known by the time ES started writing her book.

Still, it's an interesting conjecture, Alice. Thanks. Wishing lexi4 luck on tracking down any more information about ES.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 25, 2005, 12:03:19 PM
Quote
I am not sure if it is because the photos were posed that way, but there are certain pix of AA that show some of AN's expressions and mannerisms.  Of course, a picture is one moment in time.  A picture is one thing, resembling the living person is another.


Yes, everyone looks different in different pictures, so one or two pictures don't mean much. I guess I was thinking that ES's individual features had a lot more resemblence to AN's than AA's, whose features were as different as they come. But in general, ES didn't look too much like AN either...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Penny_Wilson on April 25, 2005, 12:09:00 PM
Quote
Anyway, I really would like to know more about Eugenia. I understand she lived in Illinois as do I so there must be a trail somewhere. Any suggestions as to where to start.


I don't know where you live, Lexi -- but I can give you the name and address of a man in Orange County, California who knows an immense amount about Eugenia Smith, and loves to talk about her.  I'll dig out his info this afternoon and PM it to you...  
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on April 25, 2005, 04:01:32 PM
Quote

I don't know where you live, Lexi -- but I can give you the name and address of a man in Orange County, California who knows an immense amount about Eugenia Smith, and loves to talk about her.  I'll dig out his info this afternoon and PM it to you...  

Thank you very much Penny, I'll look forward to that. I am an investigative reporter by day and a AP stoller by night. I work for Pulitzer Corp., which owns the St. Louis Post Dispatch. Have also done some freelance work for NYT and a few others. Ooopps off topic here.
It is true that ES could have picked up a lot of information from all the publicity AA recieved. I never though ES was AN either, but am very curious  about how she did come across all the informaiton she did have. WHere there is smoke there is fire and the rumors that AN survived have persisted for decades. I guess I would like to think she did.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Michelle on May 07, 2005, 12:34:51 AM
Quote


I am three years older than you Michelle and I am going to exercise and eat good food so that I can live to see it too!! ;D


LOL!!!  Wow, so you'd be 100!  I sure hope they start progressing immensely in medical technology so I can see this!  At least I'm already in the habit of healthy exercise. ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: hikaru on May 07, 2005, 01:21:06 AM
She was alive at 2002. I do not know about now.
Her other name was Nataliya Bilihoze.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: etonexile on May 07, 2005, 06:11:49 AM
DNA...all the way...the "debunker's" best friend.... ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on May 07, 2005, 07:55:36 PM
So does anyone know what happened to her? Did Putin acknowledge her?  I kind of doubt that or it would have been big news. Where is the woman's sone?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Anastasia_R on May 14, 2005, 09:26:06 AM
Quote
Despite the difference of opinions by the Russian and American scientists (the Russians say Marie is the missing daughter, the Americans claim it's Anastasia) I did read something I found disturbing.  Apparently, the skelaton buried with Anastasia's name is 5'7" tall.  I know that there are no photos of the daughters at the very end, but no one can convince me that Anastasia had something like a 5 inch growth spurt in the last few months of her life, taking her from being the shortest sister to the tallest.  :-/

Anastasia


That IS disturbing.I agree with you,Malenkaya,when you say that "no one can convince me that Anastasia had something like a 5 inch growth spurt in the last few months of her life..":-/ nothing else I can say except this sounds a little strange.Is there any testing they can do to proove it's Anastasia??
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 14, 2005, 09:36:21 AM
Quote
Is there any testing they can do to proove it's Anastasia??


Not unless they have Anastasia's confirmed DNA sample, which they don't....
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on June 22, 2005, 05:47:59 AM
I heard Natalia Petrovna Bilikhodze died some time ago I know she married in Georgia, but does anyone know if she had any children?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 22, 2005, 06:23:55 PM
As far as I know, Natalia Pelikhodze had no children...Sorry.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: QueenEna1887 on June 22, 2005, 10:14:10 PM
Then who is this "Crown Prince" Anatoly?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 23, 2005, 07:39:04 PM
I don't really know...There are too many "Anastasias" in the world. Russia was not the exception of the "Anastasia's Fever". It seems that there were several Anastasias in Russia as all over the world.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Carol_Shvybzyk on June 26, 2005, 03:44:24 PM
Are you sayin' that she REALLY is Anastasia?And what about the DNA tests and etc...Did the earn the money?
Someone explain to me,please.
Thank you so far,
Ana Carolina.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 04, 2005, 12:45:23 AM

The princess from a Kazan mental ward





The author, Svetlana Svetlova, looked at a black and white photo of a woman, front and side, taken in 1934 in prison. The woman in the photo is 33 years old.  



In 1994, the curator from a historical/architectural museum in Kostroma received a letter from a monastery. A very old nun wanted to tell her story that she was afraid to tell for over half a century. She claims that during the war years, in the Kazan prison/ psychiatric ward, a patient/inmate under the name of Nadezhda Vladimirovna Ivanova-Vasilieva was actually Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanova. The patient died in 1971 in the hospital and was buried in an unmarked mass grave.  



One of the hospital administrators found this patient’s medical chart, where it said that her only crime was that she claimed to be Anastasia Romanova, the daughter of the last Tsar. Her date and place of birth in the chart matched to AN’s: 1901, St Petersburg. The woman, according to the medical chart, had no relatives. No one knew who else she might have been. She had some scars on her shoulder that according to specialists were caused by gunfire. Yet, this woman was never involved in any kind of war. The woman also vaguely remembered having measles in childhood. She told in detail about the murders of the imperial family. She also knew that British George V asked for some floor boards from the murder room and got them as relics. At the time, these things were not public knowledge. The authors found some people who remembered this inmate. They did not think she was an impostor.  





Before her arrest, this woman attempted to leave the country, but was not able to. She used to teach foreign languages for a living. There seem to have been several people involved with her who knew of her identity and were helping her out. They kept it a secret. She was living in Yalta when she got arrested and brought to Moscow. She told the guards right away who she was.  



According to the patient’s testimony at the mental hospital, a few days before her arrest she asked a woman name Kuznetsova to send out two letters that she wrote, one to George V and another GD Kirill. In the letters she wrote that she is to be arrested and asked them for financial aid and for help getting her out of Russia. Someone named Greta Janson, a Swedish embassy employee, also wrote a letter on her behalf to Anna Vyrubova. Vyrubova supposedly wrote back asking for proof that she was really AN, and Janson supposedly sent her photos.  



The patient Ivanova-Vasilieva was diagnosed with a panic disorder in the form of paranoid delusions. She had no relatives and therefore she was kept in the hospital. Apparently, even though she spent almost 40 years in psych hospitals, they never did a test to determine her blood type.  



Eight years after the letter was received from the nun, and the editors of this publication still had the photos. The editors passed these photos to forensic services to investigate the resemblance. They compared her photos from 1934 and 1956 to determine that the features stayed consistent with age. When compared to the photos of Anastasia, they did not find consistency. But when they used a computer to compare the photos, they got different results. They compared the size of the eyes, bridge of the nose, size of the ear, and shape of the top lip. They found 88% consistency and 12% inconclusive.  



All Grand Duchesses used to get a gift of one diamond and one pearl for each of their birthdays, so by the time they were 16 they each had a full necklace. When Ivanova-Vasilieva made drawings of herself at the mental hospital, she often added the detail of a necklace with big round stones….
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Finelly on August 04, 2005, 12:50:13 AM
Got pics?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 04, 2005, 01:02:19 AM
Quote
Got pics?


This is from an article Helen translated for me. How do you post pics I've not been able to figure it out.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 04, 2005, 01:06:54 AM
Quote
Got me.  I'm barely able to type on a computer......


Well, here is the article it's from. It's also on the "Claimants" thread,  and pictures of the "Princess" are included.
If anyone can pull it up and post it, feel free

http://sovsekretno.ru/2002/04/13.html.  


Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Elisabeth on August 04, 2005, 01:07:48 AM
What a tragic story! I wonder how many other false claimants wasted away in Soviet psychiatric wards and concentration camps. It reminds me of the story Solzhenitsyn tells in Gulag Archipelago about a man who was arrested for claiming to be Tsar Michael. Solzhenitsyn met him in prison and found him to be very gentle, unassuming and childlike; he said he had received a special message from God that he was the tsar and that it was his duty to come forward and proclaim himself. Of course, none of the other prisoners believed him, but they all treated him kindly because they understood he was either mentally ill or a "yurodivyi" (holy fool).
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on August 04, 2005, 01:08:25 AM
UGh. My computer can't pull up the site for some reason. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 04, 2005, 01:09:39 AM
Quote
What a tragic story! I wonder how many other false claimants wasted away in Soviet psychiatric wards and concentration camps. It reminds me of the story Solzhenitsyn tells in Gulag Archipelago about a man who was arrested for claiming to be Tsar Michael. Solzhenitsyn met him in prison and found him to be very gentle, unassuming and childlike; he said he had received a special message from God that he was the tsar and that it was his duty to come forward and proclaim himself. Of course, none of the other prisoners believed him, but they all treated him kindly because they understood he was either mentally ill or a "yurodivyi" (holy fool).


True, but I also thought that this girl looked more like AN that AA ever did.
However, there is the slight problem of her writing to the King of England....in German ::) ::) ::)....
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on August 04, 2005, 01:12:59 AM
Can you tell me where you found it on the claimants thread??? Maybe I can get to it that way. I am looking for it, but don't know which topic it woud be under. Thank you!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 04, 2005, 01:13:08 AM
Quote
Speaking of Helen, she's been posting on the board, so I assume she'll show up here soon to tell us about her scientific credentials.


Helen is in Russia right now. But she is well qualified to make the statements she does, and is often one of the only people that keeps this "survivors" thread from becoming a complete joke. And I'm not just saying this because she's my friend. Her intelligence and common sense remarks are often needed here.
If she choses to post again, perhaps she will show you her scientific credentials, if she feels it's worth the bother.  
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2005, 06:36:12 AM
Thanks Jeremy, that's so interesting! It's so good to hear about another claimant for a change! Thanks for posting!

And for those who do not remember Helen, she is a brilliant lady who is full of very good, helpful information. If you read most of the threads on the survivor forum from just a few months ago, you will see her kind and intelligent posts explaining the facts. I do hope she will return and post again.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 09, 2005, 11:34:22 PM
Quote

 











Eight years after the letter was received from the nun, and the editors of this publication still had the photos. The editors passed these photos to forensic services to investigate the resemblance. They compared her photos from 1934 and 1956 to determine that the features stayed consistent with age. When compared to the photos of Anastasia, they did not find consistency. But when they used a computer to compare the photos, they got different results. They compared the size of the eyes, bridge of the nose, size of the ear, and shape of the top lip. They found 88% consistency and 12% inconclusive.  



I thought this was very interesting, since there are people who give alot of weight to the "similarities" between the face and ears of AA and AN.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 09, 2005, 11:36:58 PM
Quote
She also knew that British George V asked for some floor boards from the murder room and got them as relics. At the time, these things were not public knowledge. The authors found some people who remembered this inmate. They did not think she was an impostor.  



Does anyone know if the statement about George V asking for the floor boards of the murder room is true?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stepan on August 10, 2005, 05:31:23 PM
Quote

Does anyone know if the statement about George V asking for the floor boards of the murder room is true?


I have never heard of this and haven´t seen it in all the literature about the imperial family so I don´t believe it´s true. If I remember correctly according to Massie this woman,Nadezhda Ivanovna Vasiliyeva, once confessed to be a merchant´s daughter from Riga.  It is also said that she wrote letters to king George V in German which a daughter of the tsar would not have done. I know  the Russian paper "Top Secret" wrote about  the case several years ago. But I don´t think there was more info than what we know. But it´s an interesting story and it´s said that she was completely sane exept for her claim to be G D Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 11, 2005, 01:36:48 AM
Quote

I have never heard of this and haven´t seen it in all the literature about the imperial family so I don´t believe it´s true. If I remember correctly according to Massie this woman,Nadezhda Ivanovna Vasiliyeva, once confessed to be a merchant´s daughter from Riga.  It is also said that she wrote letters to king George V in German which a daughter of the tsar would not have done. I know  the Russian paper "Top Secret" wrote about  the case several years ago. But I don´t think there was more info than what we know. But it´s an interesting story and it´s said that she was completely sane exept for her claim to be G D Anastasia.


Thanks. I had never heard this before either, so I was wondering if anyone else had.

Writing to the King of England in German. NOT a point in her favor.

But I wonder what did happen to her relatives in Riga. Did they "leave her to her career as AN" just like the Schankowsky family? Or did they assume she was dead?    
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on October 12, 2005, 01:59:42 PM
http://sovsekretno.ru/2002/04/13.html.

The article is back online along with pictures of the claimant. If anyone wants to try to post the photos, feel free. For some reason I can't seem to get it to work.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 20, 2005, 02:19:50 PM
Just an update on this article. You can now see the whole article in all its glory on my website. I scanned the whole darn thing, So all illustrations are there  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 23, 2005, 11:45:12 AM
Quote
Thank you, Laura. This afternoon me and my family went to a flea market, because the weather was so nice today, and I started rifling through one of the many bins of LIFE magazines I saw, and lo and behold, at the bottom of one of the bins I found the Oct. 18 1963 issue with the article on this woman. It was VERY interesting, and I read it in the car. One of the things that amazed me most was how her account of the execution was so similar to Yurovsky's, (right down to the chair being brought into the cellar room for the Tsarevich) yet she had no way of knowing about his Note, since it wasn't brought from the archives until Radzinsky came across it.
She also resembled Alexandra in this pic:
Eugenia: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_9.jpg)
Alix: (http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/nam1904_1.jpg)

and funny how her 'rescuer' was also named Alexander, as was Anna Anderson's rescuer.


Abby: I find Eurgenia Smith one of the most interesting of all the clamants. I feel entirely sure she was not ANR.

However, her story, as I have pointed out before entirely fits the known evidence in this case in a way no other one does.

What does this mean? As you point out, the Yurovsky note, which corroborates much of the tale, was not in the public domain at the time. And, the Yurovsky note and other Bolshevik sources as they differ with those known sources (Pavel Medved, for example) is nearly the only corroboration with Smith. Smith is the only source who explains the two missing bodies in a manner different than Yurovsky. What are the possibilities for the authorship for Smith?

1. Member of the Imperial Family. (Unlikely, although maybe a short term survivor?).
2. Yurovsky or a member of the Lenin clique trying to stir the pot among emigres?
3. A very lucky fabrication that just happens to have the number of missing bodies exactly correct and identified? (And the only one published in the West prior to the infamous Note.)
4. The rescuer "Alexander" himself. We know there were a number of Imperial Army officers in Ekaterinburg at the time.

What we do know about Smith after her brief publicity in the 1960's:

1. She remained in the Eastern United States
2. She had a small group of supporters.
3. She refused free DNA testing when it was offered.
4. She died in the 1990's.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stacey on October 23, 2005, 05:37:53 PM
I'm so glad someone brought this claimant up--I've only seen her mentioned VERY briefly in a couple of books on the Romanovs but these are the first pictures I've seen of her--and I have been dying to know more about this "mystery claimant"!! I agree that the pictures of the claimant don't exactly scream "Anastasia!!!" at me but who knows??--after years in some godforsaken Soviet "mental hospital/prison" I probably wouldn't look much like ME!!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 06, 2005, 09:46:33 PM

Nevertheless I must said that Magdalen Veres is the less reliable "Anastasia" I ever knew. If you go to the site of her family "The Great Romanov Deception" you'll notice easily why.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on November 07, 2005, 04:17:44 AM
Granny Alina is biographed two,  ;).
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Margarita Markovna on November 07, 2005, 01:18:51 PM
Quote
Sorry...No books about this claimant. The only ones who were even biographed were Anna Anderson and Eugenia Smith-Smetisko.

Nevertheless I must said that Magdalen Veres is the less reliable "Anastasia" I ever knew. If you go to the site of her family "The Great Romanov Deception" you'll notice easily why.

RealAnastasia.



What's the URL for this site?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Anastasia_R on November 07, 2005, 05:40:04 PM
She doesn't even remotely RESEMEBLE Anastasia! :o Okay,thanks though! ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Nastya on November 13, 2005, 04:42:40 PM
if you look at the forhead of Nadezhda Vladimirovna Ivanova-Visilieva you can easily see a scar and anastasia had a scar the same size and the same place
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Nastya on November 13, 2005, 04:43:08 PM
srry heres the pic to look at
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/Aylenna/331b.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stacey on November 27, 2005, 06:37:50 AM
Nastya, you're right!! Thanks for pointing it out, I hadn't noticed that before! Yes, on the Anastasia section we'd been talking about why she wore bangs/a fringe (depending on which side of the Atlantic we're on!) and the consensus seemed to be that she injured herself in childhood and had a scar on her forehead as a result and so she wore her hair down to cover it. (Sorry, that was a long breathless sentence!) And this woman does indeed have a scar on her forehead which could have been covered by bangs/ a fringe. Hmmm...interesting!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: annaanderson on December 03, 2005, 11:27:26 PM
I wonder if this woman realized that her eyes were not the same color as Anastasia's.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Rachael89 on December 04, 2005, 04:00:26 AM
Her eyes could of very well been the same colour as Anastasia's, it's very hard to tell with black and white photos for example blond hair in old black and white photos can appear far darker than it really was.

Anyway the woman was mentally unstable, poor thing (which of course she would of been after all those years in a mental asylum), so it wouldn't of matterred if Anastaisa had had red eyes, she would of still probably claimed to be her.

Best

Rachael
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 04, 2005, 12:02:10 PM
According to Wikipedia, she died 31 Jan. 1997 and founded something called the St. Nicholas Foundation.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on December 04, 2005, 02:56:58 PM
I think she has such sad eyes.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Kimberly on December 04, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
I know next to nothing about photography but the photo of Eugenia Smith is very arresting but it doesn't ring quite true to me. Do you  think it has been "touched up"...particularly around the eyebrows.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Tania+ on December 04, 2005, 07:42:38 PM
A 'touch up' is a touch up, the photo though shows a thorough going over. Look at the lips, especially around the outter areas, the eyelashes brushed in, and around the ears. Do you notice the kind of white out on these areas of the picture posted by Abby ? But that may be just my take of this particular picture. Feedback ?

Tatiana



Quote
I know next to nothing about photography but the photo of Eugenia Smith is very arresting but it doesn't ring quite true to me. Do you  think it has been "touched up"...particularly around the eyebrows.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 04, 2005, 07:54:03 PM
Were these the photos in the Life magazine ? [ I have it here- somewhere] .  They were obviously airbrushed to the nth degree, but that would be the procedure for any photos  fitted for publication. The gal was obviously a fraud, I doubt that there was any real "doctoring"  to make her more acceptable as the Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: annaanderson on December 04, 2005, 08:45:58 PM
Somewhat interesting: when Eugena Smith was most famous, Tatiana Botkin was asked to meet her and see for herself is she was Anastasia. Botkin said it was ridiculous because she already knew where Anastasia was (in reference to Anna Anderson).
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stacey on December 04, 2005, 09:52:17 PM
Anastasia had blue eyes, right? It certainly appears to me that this lady from Kazan had blue eyes too--at least they were of a light color, you can tell that from the photos even if they are black-and-white pictures. (Oh, for some genuine color film of all these people!!). So I don't understand---why do you say that her eyes are the "wrong color" to be Grand Duchess Anastasia's?? ???
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Malenkaya on December 05, 2005, 02:52:38 PM
Regardless of eye color, the shape of the eyes are different.  Anastasia's we're like a half moon, while the other woman had eyes which were more rounded and open looking.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: annaanderson on December 05, 2005, 04:44:19 PM
Quote
Anastasia had blue eyes, right? It certainly appears to me that this lady from Kazan had blue eyes too--at least they were of a light color, you can tell that from the photos even if they are black-and-white pictures. (Oh, for some genuine color film of all these people!!). So I don't understand---why do you say that her eyes are the "wrong color" to be Grand Duchess Anastasia's?? ???

The woman's eye color is obviously way too bright to be Anastasia's.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 12:16:27 PM
Sure would like to see the original photographs of which these are a composite.  

She looks more like GD Anatasia than I've ever thought Anna Anderson ever did.

If there was a survivor,  a mental ward would have been the most probably place a surivor of the the Imperial Family would have ended up,  I think.

Here is the other photo show in the article:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/IvonovaVasileva.jpg)

Thanks for bringing Ivonova's article and the translation to us.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2005, 12:27:15 PM
Quote
(http://img93.exs.cx/img93/2977/anastasiaclose-up.png)


(http://sovsekretno.ru/image/2002/04/13/332b.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: etonexile on December 07, 2005, 11:21:00 AM
 I thought one just need be of the same gender and race. Similar pics can always be found and adjusted as needed...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Maartje on February 20, 2006, 06:28:17 AM
You can find some information of her and her brother Joseph Veres here: http://www.romanov-memorial.com/pretenders.htm. She and her brother claimed to be Aleksei and Anastasia. Their story describes the injury's they had; it's very strange that someone like Aleksei could have recovered from al that...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Prince_Xander on April 29, 2006, 06:19:02 PM
This Phot is more than haunting.  . and i wonder why her story was not publicized as much as Anna Andersons was? . .when i saw this photo It immeadiatley sent chills up my spine . . i believe it could be her. . i really truly do . .
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: GrandDuchess_2011 on May 01, 2006, 09:32:17 PM
I also think that this woman looks a lot like anastasia,  but there is only a little smidgen of belief that she might have survived, though I think that MIGHT be her. And I was also thinking why she wasn't as publicized as AA was. She's a lot more believable
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 03, 2006, 03:01:57 AM
Perhaps she was more believable in certain aspects of looks but didn't share other aspects such as languages spoken and written, correct height and position of scars, and so on.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on October 31, 2006, 11:37:44 AM
Well, I agree about the Alexei imposters. That is all very true, these are the excuses they used to get around the hemophilia question, which of course is a major downfall of many Alexei imposters, or I should say, of them all. Yet there were many Alexei imposters, and they all had their stories, good or bad. Some of their '' hemophilia'' stories were better than others, but all end up being silly, if you ask me. I am glad that someone sumned up all the dumb reasons that the Alexei imposters gave about hemophilia, once and for all.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2006, 12:04:33 PM
Eugenia Smith was not Anastasia. Refusing DNA testing basically says it all. I think she may have been mentally ill, but she seemed to have herself more together than Anna Anderson at least. She wasn't prone to the type of things that Anna Anderson sometimes did that make you question her sanity, with right, of course. Eugenia Smith likely didn't have knowledge beyond her own imagination or what people may have told her, that she came into contact with. That may have included valid info, but that doesn't make her story valid. Eugenia may have read things as well, of course. I think she was a sad woman-the story of her and the false Alexei is funny. ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 02, 2006, 06:14:00 PM
Eugenia Smith was not Anastasia. Refusing DNA testing basically says it all. I think she may have been mentally ill, but she seemed to have herself more together than Anna Anderson at least. She wasn't prone to the type of things that Anna Anderson sometimes did that make you question her sanity, with right, of course. Eugenia Smith likely didn't have knowledge beyond her own imagination or what people may have told her, that she came into contact with. That may have included valid info, but that doesn't make her story valid. Eugenia may have read things as well, of course. I think she was a sad woman-the story of her and the false Alexei is funny. ;)

There is a theory that ES was writing for someone else.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: J_Kendrick on November 02, 2006, 07:31:00 PM

Anyway, I really would like to know more about Eugenia. I understand she lived in Illinois as do I so there must be a trail somewhere. Any suggestions as to where to start.


You might want to consider contacting the Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery in Jordanville, New York, where Eugenia Smith (Smetisko) is now buried and much of her artwork and other belongings are now stored.

jk
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 02, 2006, 07:32:57 PM
 :)
Thank you for the suggestion jk. I am learning more about her everyday.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 09:54:17 AM
Yes, I read the theory she was writing for someone else. I don't think though, that she was writing for the Anastasia who survived or something that nobody has ever heard of. She would have been much more credible anyway, if she had just said that she had her sources, or if she had not gotten involved with the false Alexei thing. She may have known some information not generally known, perhaps from sources, but that doesn't mean she was the front of some real, surviving daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 03, 2006, 06:49:14 PM
Yes, I read the theory she was writing for someone else. I don't think though, that she was writing for the Anastasia who survived or something that nobody has ever heard of. She would have been much more credible anyway, if she had just said that she had her sources, or if she had not gotten involved with the false Alexei thing. She may have known some information not generally known, perhaps from sources, but that doesn't mean she was the front of some real, surviving daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra.

The angle I am exploring is for whom was she writing? That is the key to this story,
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 05, 2006, 06:54:57 PM
Yes, it seems that it is. I think Eugenia Smith was not Anastasia, and that she wasn't writing for anyone who was a real survivor. It's possible she was writing for someone who thought they were a survivor, or wanted people to think so. But Eugenia Smith was not the best way to get their story across, as some of her actions proved. ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: skirt on November 06, 2006, 08:18:19 PM
The fact that Eugenia Smith knew about two missing bodies before it was publically released is very interesting indeed- I like the idea that she was ghost-writing for someone..perhaps a relative of one of the guards?
Keep us updated Lexi4!!  ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 11:21:54 AM
Yes, she might have been ghost writing for somebody, but it may not have been anybody of relevance. At any rate, that doesn't mean she knew things, she might have, but I am not sure how much, etc. I think whoever chose her as their mouthpiece, wasn't very wise.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: skirt on November 07, 2006, 09:06:25 PM
perhaps she wasnt 'chosen' to be the mouthpiece?
just picked apart the story and made it her own?
just musing of course...
I really must read more about this one!
I admit that I am with Lexi4 on this one, I too
would love to think/dream that someone survived..
I know, I know- as unlikely as that occurance is-
(theres' been all sorts of names for us 'dreamers'.. guilible..romantics..)
those are the nicer names I've read of course!  ;)
Even if nothing comes of these claimants
its still interesting and entertaining to learn more.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 08:45:38 AM
Yes, claimant/ survivor stories can be interesting, or pathetic, or funny, but they are usually entertaining. I think they make you sad in tne end though, for deluded people who didn't have enough for them to be themselves, but wanted to be somebody else. Eugenia Smith may have been speaking for herself, but whoever she was speaking for, she didn't do a good job of it.  If there is anypossible theory about her, it would have to be that she spoke for someone else.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 08, 2006, 06:59:27 PM
Am i losing it or was there a discussion about photograpsh on this thread? I don't see it and I think I remember reading about it.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 08, 2006, 07:24:14 PM
It's not on this thread.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 09, 2006, 08:20:37 PM
It's not on this thread.
Thanks Lisa. Then the answer is I am losing my mind  :) because I can't for the life of me remember where it was.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 10, 2006, 05:11:11 PM
Thanks Lisa. Then the answer is I am losing my mind  :) because I can't for the life of me remember where it was.
It's on this thread (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,1080.0.html)   ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 10, 2006, 07:24:11 PM
Thank you Laura, you are most kind.  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on November 11, 2006, 08:45:09 PM
Here is a photo of Eugenia Smith in 1963.  She claimed to be GD Anastasia.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/EugeniaSmith1.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2006, 10:04:29 AM
Yes, it seems that it is. I think Eugenia Smith was not Anastasia, and that she wasn't writing for anyone who was a real survivor.

Look dear, no one survived!! It's impossible!!

Why do all these wicked claimants use different names  ??? ??? Because they are imposters and if they were who they claimed they would have kept their original name, the last emblem of their past!! Lot of rot, makes me nauseous.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 23, 2006, 02:01:09 AM
The question of survivors is secondary.  The primary question is do we know the truth and this lies at the root of all survivor inquiries.  Nothing is impossible!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 23, 2006, 09:35:19 AM
The question of survivors is secondary.  The primary question is do we know the truth and this lies at the root of all survivor inquiries.  Nothing is impossible!

Good point. I think it is very difficult to seperate the truth from the lies in this whole saga. And welcome Lordtranwell.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 24, 2006, 04:45:41 PM
I defintely don't believe in survivors, that's just silly. As for the truth/lies aspect, well I doubt there is much truth, and that there are many lies in these claims, although you do have to feel pity for some of these people. A lot of the survivor claims ended being lies, and a great waste of time.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: J_Kendrick on November 26, 2006, 05:29:44 PM
Yes, I read the theory she was writing for someone else. I don't think though, that she was writing for the Anastasia who survived or something that nobody has ever heard of. She would have been much more credible anyway, if she had just said that she had her sources, or if she had not gotten involved with the false Alexei thing. She may have known some information not generally known, perhaps from sources, but that doesn't mean she was the front of some real, surviving daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra.

The angle I am exploring is for whom was she writing? That is the key to this story,

Consider the possibility, also, that it could be the other way around...

It may not have been that Eugenia Smith was writing for someone else.  It could well have been, instead, that it was a particular someone else who had actually done the writing... and that Smith, in fact, was only just posing as the claimant in place of the book's true author.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 26, 2006, 05:42:08 PM
I can consider that. But the question becomes why would Smith do that? And how did she get away with it? Although ultimately proven a fraud, Smith did get away with posing as the GD for a short period of time. What would have been the purpose of that?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 26, 2006, 06:01:35 PM
Yes, that could be. There is a great deal of conspiracy in this claimant's story. As it was, whoever she was posing for, she screwed it up. She ended up being more amusing than anything else. It is said she didn't die until 1995, but maintained her claim to the end? I have read she was given the chance to have a DNA test done on her, but refused. That might be because she was posing for someone else. I had always thought it was because she obviously wasn't a Romanov, and didn't want that proven.  ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 26, 2006, 06:14:12 PM
She died Jan. 31, 1997. On her naturalization papers, she claimed she was born in 1899 in Bukovina. She later changed her birthday and her birthplace to match that of AN.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 26, 2006, 06:22:12 PM
1997 is very late for a claimant from early on to be still around. I do wonder who she really was, as she was more presentable than Anna Anderson, and not obviously crazy. I think there needs to be more written in books about her.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 03:15:42 PM
There are probably about 10 "Anastasia's" that we know of. Off the top of my head, I can name:

1. Mlle Berditch- claim first appeared in 1920
2. Anna Anderson (OR Franziska Schanzkowska)- claim first appeared in 1921.
3. Nadezhda V. Ivanova Vasilyeva- claim first appeared in 1934.
4.  Eugenia Smith- claim first appeared in 1963.
5. Magdalene Veres
6. Natalie Belikhodze- claim first appeared in 2002.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 08:03:46 PM
It would be funny if AA and ES met. I bet there would be some b**** slapping going on there lol. :D

But as for the topic, I don't think Ms. Smith knew anything at all. In fact if you notice she said in her book only she survived, but when Michael G. claimed he was Alexei and that Eugenia was his sister, she changed her story and THEN she said Alexei survived. So in reality, she did not know that in the future it would be Anastasia and Alexei missing from the grave.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 06:38:28 AM
Woah. Ignore what I wrote above. That was based only on what I read in Massie's book, but I took the time to actually read the original Life article on Eugenia Smith and it turns out she actually claimed in her story that one of the guard who "rescued" her (named Alexander, go figure ::)) removed TWO of the corpses from the back of the truck, but one was already dead but she "was still alive". Maybe this old hag really did know something we didn't.
Or one interesting theory is that her first story that she told LIFE mag. was the correct one, that she knew the real rescued Grand Duchess Anastasia before she died in Rumania in 1920, which would also explain those people who testified in the AA trials that it was an "open secret" that Anastasia Nicholaevna was staying in Rumania in 1919 and it was also explain all the rumors of GDA's escape.

This is just an interesting theory y'all so don't attack me too hard for this one. lol ;D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 06:50:36 AM
I just thought this would be a good topic for discussion. If Anna Anderson and Eugenia Smith had for some reason or another met each other, what do you think they would have said to each other?

 I don't know why a meeting was never arranged between the 2 claimants. I mean, I'm sure Eugenia knew she was by far not the first 'Anastasia'.

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5728/aaesfl8.jpg)

(AA is on the left, Eugenia on the right)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 20, 2007, 09:21:36 AM
I've been looking around to see what these two thought of each other, and I found something.

Eugenia said of Anna Anderson when someone brought her up (clenching her fists of course ::):

"Now I will fight them like cats and dogs and I will sue anybody who says one word against my family."

I say Give me a break Eugenia. You were the one copying off of her lol.


EDIT: According to the Lovell book (while alot of it is made up, the Milukoff tapes really do exist), Alexei Milukoff asked Anna Anderson about Eugenia  Smith and her only response was:
"Is it not incredible?"

If these 2 had only met I guaruntee someone would have gone home with a black eye haha. :D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: scarlett_riviera on May 21, 2007, 10:42:12 PM
Eugenia had puppy eyes. I mean, whenevever I come across her photo, I just go "awww".
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 22, 2007, 02:52:28 AM
I never go "awww" when I see Ms. Smith. She was a very well kept together woman, and I think she was completely sane and knew what she was doing the whole time. She wasn't a very good imposter at all. At least AA was believable in the way that she acted, you know, running around on roofs naked and having mental breakdowns and such. This is what I think the real Anastasia would have been like if she had survived after seeing her family murdered before her. I often wonder what happened to Franziska to traumatize her so badly. I personally think it's more than dropping the grenade and killing the man that scarred her like this. Maybe it had to do with her murdered husband.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 22, 2007, 04:55:29 PM
Actually, I have pointed out on the Forum and to various historians that the Eugenia Smith story is remarkable among survivor stories because it's the only one published in the West prior to the fall of the Soviet Union which is correct as to the number of missing bodies. So, while it is obvious that Smith was not ANR, it is less obvious how she happened upon her information. Was it a lucky guess? Information from a real (but short term) survivor? Something else? We don't really know, but the probability of her being correct with a lucky guess is limited.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 22, 2007, 07:08:06 PM
Actually, I have pointed out on the Forum and to various historians that the Eugenia Smith story is remarkable among survivor stories because it's the only one published in the West prior to the fall of the Soviet Union which is correct as to the number of missing bodies. So, while it is obvious that Smith was not ANR, it is less obvious how she happened upon her information. Was it a lucky guess? Information from a real (but short term) survivor? Something else? We don't really know, but the probability of her being correct with a lucky guess is limited.
I agree with you. Maybe it really was true that she knew the real Anastasia in Rumania as she originally claimed. Remember that it wasn't until the Spellers told her she was lieing that she "confessed" she was Anastasia. She screwed her story up when she did that, and she may have possibly hidden from us by doing so the truth of the Grand Duchess Anastasia's survival.

It all added up before she made this idiotic claim. The rumors of Anastasia's escape, the people who said that it was "an open secret" that Anastasia was living in Rumania in 1919, and Eugenia's orginal claim was that she had known the escaped Grand Duchess Anastasia in Rumania and was writing her memoirs before she died in 1920.

And it's also unlikely she stole the Rumania details from Anna Anderson's story because Eugina's immigration papers indeed listed her as coming from Rumania.



EDIT: As a side note, what was ES thinking when she claimed to be Anastasia?
(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/239/aaesgq2.jpg)

I mean, at least Anna Anderson had similar eyes.
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/9308/cap003xp0.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on June 23, 2007, 10:45:54 PM
I wonder whether this latest Anastasia clone will submit herself to DNA testing?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on June 24, 2007, 04:39:39 AM
well those that perpetuated the outrageous myth of Anna Anderson were only doing it for the money .... not as funny as it seems ... they must really hate seeing yet another "Anastasia" appear ... this latest one is probably just as credible in the realms of fantasy
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 24, 2007, 06:37:27 AM
I feel sorry for the little old lady, being hauled about by some fraudsters in such a manner. Probably does not even know what is going on.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on June 24, 2007, 09:43:20 AM
Yes all these frauds are sad. It makes me wonder about the minds of people who actually believe in them. They are even more to be pitied.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Kurt Steiner on June 24, 2007, 11:58:23 AM
I know it is not funny, but I wonder if the person who wrote that sentence really meant it that way. About the lady in question, I wonder what is doing her family. Greed is always dangerous.

Anyway, let's see what happens when someone says the magic words: "DNA Test".

 ;D

Sorry, I know that for the relatives of Anastasia this affair must be awfully painful, but I keep seeing the comic aspect of this situation -a really bad comedy-. In some way, all this fraud and impostor angers me, actually. But I prefer to laugh at that scum that plays with the dead rather than to get angered. They don't deserve anything. They're just that, scum.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on June 24, 2007, 08:26:47 PM
This article was printed five years ago.

We've  talked about her some time ago.  Have no idea where that thread is.  Maybe in the "claimant" section.

I believe someone mentioned that she has died.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 25, 2007, 07:17:36 PM
It is a very strange link ???
Already there are no not that to invent for gaining  fame... >:(
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Joyann1 on July 13, 2007, 11:34:21 AM
but there is still money on there banks right?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2007, 02:36:50 PM
but there is still money on there banks right?

I don't think there is or ever was. It seems like it was a rumor that led all those claimants to pretend to be a Romanov, but in the end there was nothing there. I'm not going to get into details I'm not sure of and post misinformation, but maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject can explain.

Another reason I don't think it was there is because at the outbreak of WWI the Tsar allegedly repatriated all his money from foreign banks to Russia to help its economy for the war effort, and urged all other rich people do to the same. So it was all in Russia when it fell, and everyone lost everything. I'm sure those emigres' wished they still had their western European bank accounts later, but they didn't have any idea how badly things would turn out in Russia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2007, 10:20:45 PM
Here is a quote from a footnote in The Final Chapter by Robert Massie page 185.

"Baring Brothers did not deny that for seventy years it held millions of pounds in Russian money.  On November 7, 1917, the day the Bolsheviks seized power, the British government froze 4 million pounds deposited at Baring Brothers by the Imperial government.  Over the years, interest ballooned this sum to 62 million pounds.  In July 1986, in the era of glasnost and perestroika, the governments of Mikhail Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher decided to wipe the slate clean and use this sum to pay off British holders of Russian Imperial bonds and British and Commonwealth claimants who had lost property or other assets in Russia because of the revolution.  The list of claimants was very long: 37,000.  The list of property was even longer: 60,000.  It ran in importance from oil wells, banks, factories, insurance companies, ships, gold, and copper and coal mines to personal jewelry, furniture, automobiles, and bank balances.  One claimant demanded reimbursement for five dozen pair of stockings left behind, another for season tickets for ten performances of the opera which he was unable to attend because of the revolution."

"Between 1987 and 1990, these claims were investigated, values established, and exchange rates calculated.  Eventually, bondholders and property owners were compensated at a rate of 54.78 percent of their original value. The existence of this large sum of "tsarist government money" may or may not have been the source of the rumors about "Romanov family money."
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 14, 2007, 11:54:05 AM
This would have been funds of the Imperial Government, not  the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on July 15, 2007, 09:33:00 AM
The existence of this large sum of "tsarist government money" may or may not have been the source of the rumors about "Romanov family money."

Robert,

Thanks.  I think that is what Massie was pointing out in his footnote.  That there was money in Baring Brothers Bank but it was not personal family money, but money that belonged to the tsarist government.  However the footnote goes on to say:

"Even today, there are those who argue that, because the tsar was titled Autocrat of all the Russia, he personally owned Russia: land, property, bank accounts - everything.  The deposits at Baring Brothers, these people say, therefore belonged to him or his heirs.  Russian constitutional law does not support this opinion."

I wonder, though, about Russian constitutional law.  Russia did not have a constitution when Nicholas II ruled.  It did not have a constitution when it was the Soviet Union.  If this is being based on the constitution that Russia has since the fall of the Soviet Union, would there be any legal contradiction to applying the law of a constitution that did not exist when the money was deposited in Baring's and then frozen by them?

Further, if Baring Brothers Bank had assets, what then precludes other banks in other countries from also still having funds when the October Revolution caused Baring Brothers to "freeze" this money?

I can see how all of the rumors could have been started and why.  Also, because there is another story that Alix told someone that if the family were exiled they would not have to beg for money because they had assets in Britain.

I am in no way stating an opinion that there was or was not money in any bank in any country, but I can see why some would think so.  And since Marie Feodorovna refused to believe or allow anyone else to accept the fact that her son and his family had been executed, no one else would have the authority to force the banks to open their records.

Since having money would have allowed not only Marie Feodorovna and Xenia Alexandrovna and Olga Alexandrovna but others who were close to destitute to live more comfortably and without aid from George V or any other source it would have made sense for these exiles to have applied to various banks for the funds.  But, I also understand Marie Feodorovna, as a mother and grandmother, not wanting to believe in the execution.  That is a truth that was just to horrible for her to bear.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 15, 2007, 09:57:45 AM
Well, the Emperor ruled by manifesto, but he had abdicated, had he not?  Therefore any monies belonging to the government were no longer within his rights, were they?
 Yes, Alixz,  I can see where the rumours of fortunes came about. They were just that, though, rumours. If people bothered to look at the realities, they would have seen that, imo.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: charley on July 30, 2007, 12:24:38 PM

to pay off British holders of Russian Imperial bonds and British and Commonwealth claimants who had lost property or other assets in Russia because of the revolution. 
"Between 1987 and 1990, these claims were investigated, values established, and exchange rates calculated.  Eventually, bondholders and property owners were compensated at a rate of 54.78 percent of their original value. The existence of this large sum of "tsarist government money" may or may not have been the source of the rumors about "Romanov family money."

I have a Tsarist bond, I wonder if it is worth anything?  ???
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: charley on July 30, 2007, 12:30:18 PM
Does anyone have a picture of this Natalya Bilikhodze?  I'd like to see what she looks like.
I found this article about her as well.
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/12/30188_.html
The thing that interested me, was not about her, but the statement, "To examine these tsar’s daughters, the Geneva bank created an identification service, though nobody of the former candidates could pass the exam."  I know the source is PRAVDA, but has anyone ever heard about this elsewhere?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on July 30, 2007, 02:30:29 PM
charley,

What a story!!  It covers just about everything and has an explanation for just about everything!

I have never seen a picture of this woman, but I'll keep looking.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 30, 2007, 04:06:48 PM
What a crackpot.   The GD Vladimir is not buried in the  Tsar's vaults, btw. He is in the Grand Ducal vaults. Does this story never end? Swiss bank accounts?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 03:35:18 AM
Sadly no Robert. There are plenty of deluded ones around unfortunately.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 11, 2007, 06:51:44 AM
Yes all these frauds are sad. It makes me wonder about the minds of people who actually believe in them. They are even more to be pitied.

I have to ask, Dmitri.  Are you a relative?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Kitt on August 11, 2007, 09:08:37 AM
Hello to everyone
I have been reading (and lurking) on this forum for some years.  What a splendid site.
Years ago I wrote a story about the imperial family, before DNA and the film Nicolas and Alexandra. It was inspired by the fact that Karensky had had a summer home in Pennsylvania near my college.  In the story one of the premises was that the family was intact, but that they and their sponsors never revealed who they really were. This was partly because of the far reach of the Soviets to kill people outside of the country, such as Trotsky.  It also enabled the family, in this fictional tale to truly integrate into a small community.  In the story they intermarried into the community, and generations were formed who had little knowledge of their true identity, other than they fled Russia as émigrés of the nobility.
One of the things that always has seemed strange to me is that in a real situation, wouldn't it be more practical (especially if there were sponsors who provided funds) to not be publicly known?  I do understand that it would require a complete divesting of the past ego. I feel that in light of the fact that the family wanted to remain together, and live a simple family life, this idea of anonymity would have been a more real possibility than resettling as the known family entity.
My fictional story has long been stored in boxes from college, and maybe even is lost by this time. I especially let go of the idea when the DNA (even with its unique problems) was published. The whole subject is still tantalizingly interesting.
All the best,
Vivian
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 11, 2007, 11:49:02 AM


Welcome, Kitt!

That story sounds very interesting and I'd like to read it. I have also thought of the same idea only I placed them in Iowa on a farm, and I never got around to actually writing anything down. I totally agree that if they had lived, they would have remained anonymous, and the last thing any of them would want to do would be to make a public spectacle of themselves, and especially not bring a legal case  against the remaining relatives. The more I read about AA's claim the more I'm convinced it was motivated by greed, and she was not even the mastermind behind it. If you ever find your writings and type it up online, or get it published, I would be very interested in reading it. For me it would be one of those 'books you can't put down.'
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Kitt on August 11, 2007, 12:43:13 PM
Thank you Annie,
I dooubt that I'll ever find it, although I could probably recreate it.  Maybe when I retire in March.   In my story, the first generation in this country actually have some good laughs when they read and hear about the fakes.
Vivian
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 11, 2007, 12:49:07 PM
Thank you Annie,
I dooubt that I'll ever find it, although I could probably recreate it.  Maybe when I retire in March.   In my story, the first generation in this country actually have some good laughs when they read and hear about the fakes.
Vivian

That makes it sound even more interesting! :D Please do reproduce it!

I also don't think it's too late to try to sell this story, fiction about the Romanovs and AA is still selling out there. And AA's entire claim is fiction, but it still draws interest! Please go for it!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on September 02, 2007, 03:08:36 AM
Those pictures are certainly eerie.

But of course we now all know that Anastasia died with her family in 1918.

Those combined photos make me feel as if I am being looked at by two different people in the same face.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 03, 2007, 02:29:34 AM
The resemblance is remarkable.  If this person was confused one can see how she might think she was Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 05, 2007, 04:12:11 PM
Yes but Anna Anderson's eyes a different from that of Anastasia that is the major difference in their looks in the nose and lips are very similar. The photos were digitally edited to make her look more like Anastasia she does look like her in the photo except for those large eyes Anna Anderson. Yes one can think that Anna Anderson is Anastasia one they look at those photos with the digitally edit appearances change to look like Anastasia. The eyes may give one a doubt becuase they are different. I realy would think that after someone looked at the photo they would have thought Anna Anderson is Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Kransnoeselo on September 05, 2007, 09:49:20 PM
Just a tid-bit of information that I came across in the book  "Xenia; Once a Grand Duchess".  Xenia recounts that Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden
and the former Imperial dentist when to visit with Eugenia Smith.  They concluded that while Eugenia was very amiable she did not resemble the real Anastasia in any way.  The Baroness believed Mrs. Smith to be suffering from some form of a delusional disorder.  Of course it is well known that the Baroness was one of the first to visit the "other Anastasia" Anna Anderson and declare her a fraud.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 12:24:37 AM
What remains interesting about Eugenia is where she got her information, and the accuracy of it, given that she could not have been a survivor and that indeed, that there were no survivors.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 12:40:34 AM
The information has been around for a very long time for anybody to obtain. All these imposters were utterly ridiculous. That's the one thing they shared in common. Felix Yussopov was correct when he stated they should all be locked in a room together.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 03:14:45 PM
The information has been around for a very long time for anybody to obtain. All these imposters were utterly ridiculous. That's the one thing they shared in common. Felix Yussopov was correct when he stated they should all be locked in a room together.

Dmitri, I think you are mistaken about the information about two of the bodies being missing from the main grave. When "her" book was published in the 1960's, no one in the West, none of the other purported survivors had ever mentioned two bodies being missing, it was always one survivor. As I've said before, if you don't find this interesting, don't post here.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 03:26:01 PM
Eugenia Smith was a fraud, pure and simple.  Her publisher admitted it. She remains an idle curiosity.  As for "only one missing", well, as I recall, she had a "reunion" with Aleksei and Maria  [Goleniewski et cie.] Her 15 minutes of fame lasted just about that. Golieniewski himslf claimed the whole family escaped and lived a "retired " lfe in Poland.  So, not all the  survivor stories claimed only one made it out.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 03:36:11 PM
Eugenia Smith was a fraud, pure and simple.  Her publisher admitted it. She remains an idle curiosity.  As for "only one missing", well, as I recall, she had a "reunion" with Aleksei and Maria  [Goleniewski et cie.] Her 15 minutes of fame lasted just about that. Golieniewski himslf claimed the whole family escaped and lived a "retired " lfe in Poland.  So, not all the  survivor stories claimed only one made it out.

Wasn't that the family featured "File on the Tsar"? I remember my high school History teacher who was also the Russian teacher believed in the Golieniewskis. He would show me all the pics and brag and I was afraid of making him mad to tell him I didn't believe them. It makes no sense to meet with them as 'family', because if she was AN, then their 'sister' wasn't AN and therefore all frauds (which of course they were) Didn't AA meet with the woman claiming to be the 'fifth daughter' who was hidden and adopted out?

I would like to know how Eugenia got her 'info', it had to come from some Russian 'insider'.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 03:39:08 PM
Eugenia Smith was a fraud, pure and simple.  Her publisher admitted it. She remains an idle curiosity.  As for "only one missing", well, as I recall, she had a "reunion" with Aleksei and Maria  [Goleniewski et cie.] Her 15 minutes of fame lasted just about that. Golieniewski himslf claimed the whole family escaped and lived a "retired " lfe in Poland.  So, not all the  survivor stories claimed only one made it out.

Wasn't that the family featured "File on the Tsar"? I remember my high school History teacher who was also the Russian teacher believed in the Golieniewskis. He would show me all the pics and brag and I was afraid of making him mad to tell him I didn't believe them. It makes no sense to meet with them as 'family', because if she was AN, then their 'sister' wasn't AN and therefore all frauds (which of course they were) Didn't AA meet with the woman claiming to be the 'fifth daughter' who was hidden and adopted out?

I would like to know how Eugenia got her 'info', it had to come from some Russian 'insider'.

That's what I thought, too, Annie, that it had to come from someone who knew.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 04:13:25 PM
If you read her book, she really comes up with nothing new or unknown.  Also, a lot of what she said was simply made up. No exclusive insider information at all. She also changed her story as she went along and found out  something she had "forgotten". The infamoues "reunion being just one example. In the end, it all caught up with her and she was easily exposed. She came out in 1963, by then there were plenty of memoirs of Russian court life to glean tid bits from.  Twist the information a bit to make it look personal and voila!  One's very own court memoir. I do not think anyone even bothered to take dna samples from her, and she is buried, not cremated.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 04:33:13 PM
If you read her book, she really comes up with nothing new or unknown.  Also, a lot of what she said was simply made up. No exclusive insider information at all. She also changed her story as she went along and found out  something she had "forgotten".

I did read it but it was years ago in middle school and I had forgotten the details. That makes sense, she made things up that no one could verify as right or wrong since the rest of them were dead, so who'd know?  :D  There are a few "Anastasia" 'diaries' out there that are made up fiction and just opening to a page I can pick out something to prove just how fake it is. It does bother me that people believe these fake stories.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:17:50 PM
Yes you are quite right Robert. That guy Golieniewski was yet another one of the ridiculous imposters. They were all rather amusing in their bizarre way.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Rachael89 on September 11, 2007, 04:37:07 PM
Bizarrely, the discovery of the bones has prompted someone else with a story of survival to come forward, says their dad saw GD Anastasia on a ship escaping in 1918:

http://www.thisisthenortheast.co.uk/features/leader/display.var.1679030.0.from_boro_with_love.php

Even though it's (obviously) amazingly imporbably it makes quite an interesting read so I thought I'd share.

Rachael

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 11, 2007, 07:11:16 PM
Myths and legends ...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on September 11, 2007, 07:26:22 PM
That story is really a stretch.
But the Empress of Asia was a really cool ship.She ran regular runs to the Orient until 1916 was requisitioned by the Royal Navy and converted into an Auxiliary Cruiser. She sailed for New York on May 22 1918 and arrived on June 17, 1918. On board were about 3,000 Chinese labourers. So it doesn't appear that the ship ever docked at Vladivostok.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 11, 2007, 07:39:32 PM
Even though I don't believe it, it's always interesting to hear about some other claimant besides AA all the time.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 11, 2007, 07:47:46 PM
Yes there were many claimants. I wonder whether they were all clones?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 11, 2007, 07:56:41 PM
Yes that could be a possiblity right there that all may have been clones we never know. But all this is another myth.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 12:43:55 AM
I think Ronald Shaw should go and have a nice cup of tea and lie down for a while. He got his name in the paper and can ponder on that.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on September 12, 2007, 01:07:51 AM
Catty Belochka, Catty.  We're not all as clever as you or as well informed.  He was only repeating what his father told him................though it has to be said that provided http://www.empressofasia.com  is correct the timeline is quite incorrect.  but presumably his father did and saw something - the interesting question is What?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 01:19:53 AM
From the article:

"He never saw her very close, but when he later looked at pictures of Anastasia, he said she looked like the girl he had seen."

Oh dear, now it is time for another cup of tea.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 12, 2007, 02:41:44 AM
Yes perhaps a nice cup of Russian Caravan Tea?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Foxglove on September 12, 2007, 06:01:04 PM
I wonder if Jack Shaw saw a picture of Maria in the paper as the missing daughter, would he then claim that the girl he saw was in fact Maria? Also, some of the events described surrounding the girl sound suspicious to me.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 12, 2007, 06:10:47 PM
Assuming the story is true, that is  the gentleman did see a young, well off lady being escorted abroad, and not  just a family legend, it could have been any young lady/girl from a well off family. Romanovs were not the only ones trying to escape, after all. The only real way to research the claim is to check passenger lists for the ship and immigration records in Vancouver for the time period.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 12, 2007, 06:33:46 PM
The only real way to research the claim is to check passenger lists for the ship and immigration records in Vancouver for the time period.

Robert, you don't expect that Anastasia went under her REAL name, do you? ;-)

It would have made an even more interesting story if Alexei was also seen on that ship...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 12, 2007, 06:53:20 PM
No,of course not.  However, such research may be able to tell  just who the young lady was.  Where she was heading and who was to look after her.  I do not believe for one second that she was a Romanov Grand Duchess. You know me far better than that!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 12, 2007, 07:04:14 PM
I do not believe for one second that she was a Romanov Grand Duchess. You know me far better than that!

Of course I knew, I just had to say it! :-)

At least this story is somewhat different than the old "I was saved by one of the executioners and escaped across Europe" tale... You've got to give it that. I am pretty sure this guy's father probably even saw someone who he thought was the GD on that ship... Well, why not, this story is no worse than any of the others, why shouldn't it be publicized too?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 12, 2007, 07:33:30 PM
Most likely, if the incident did , indeed occur, it was merely a matter of mistaken identity.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 07:52:59 PM
Yes perhaps a nice cup of Russian Caravan Tea?

Excellent choice Dmitri.

Please warm the samovar and then we can generously pour out the truth.

Maragrita  ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 08:01:14 PM
I do not believe for one second that she was a Romanov Grand Duchess. You know me far better than that!

Of course I knew, I just had to say it! :-)

At least this story is somewhat different than the old "I was saved by one of the executioners and escaped across Europe" tale... You've got to give it that. I am pretty sure this guy's father probably even saw someone who he thought was the GD on that ship... Well, why not, this story is no worse than any of the others, why shouldn't it be publicized too?

Mr Shaw's timing about revealing his late father's "recollections" relating to his unsubstantiated impressions can not be ignored.

Margarita
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 12, 2007, 08:16:41 PM
Well, he probably did not believe it himself.   Just a family story he told to a reporter who needed something to put in the local paper. I would not take it seriously at all. Unless one wanted to find out who the girl might really have been.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 08:45:53 PM
Well, he probably did not believe it himself.   Just a family story he told to a reporter who needed something to put in the local paper. I would not take it seriously at all. Unless one wanted to find out who the girl might really have been.

Does it really matter who that girl was? There were plenty of refugees, young and old fleeing to safety in many boats.

Margarita
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 12, 2007, 09:06:20 PM
It might to some people, who are into that sort of thing. Immigrant research.  She was a person, after all.  She might have had an interesting story of her own, sans  Romanov. That is, assuminmg she actuially existed. There are many people who do this sort of research as a hobby. I, for one, am not one of them, however.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on September 13, 2007, 03:56:05 AM
From my perspective, assuming the gist of the story is correct ie that a group of RN sailors were sent in civilian clothes to escort a group of people out of Vladivostok, is who these people were and what was the British interest in them?  The Royal Navy did embark surviving members of the Royal Family from the Crimea in 1919 on HMS Marlborough, but the British were generally very loath to take other Russian refugees - which is why most ended up in Paris, Berlin or stuck in Turkey in refugee camps until resettled in Eastern Europe in the 1920's.  If a group were taken out clandestinely then who were they and to what purpose?

The British had many irons in the Russian fire at this time, including a well financed plan to purchase Russian Banks and industry in anticipation of a White victory.  If the Whites had won then Britain would have had a huge financial empire in Siberia and the Don Valley that would have equalled or exceeded India - and all legal and obtained at little cost in (British) lives.  Perhaps these people were the children of the Russian financiers and industrialists who sold their shares and capital interests to the British - we'll probably never know, unfortunately.

And I don't, unfortunately, have time to go looking.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on September 19, 2007, 08:35:09 PM
Anderson has one thing in common with Anastasia. They are both dead.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 20, 2007, 03:59:27 PM
Yes Dmitri that is one thing we all can agree upon with the two their both dead Anna Anderson and Anastasia there is no doubt about that.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on September 21, 2007, 08:18:44 AM
In response to "Yes but Anna Anderson's eyes a different from that of Anastasia that is the major difference in their looks in the nose and lips are very similar. The photos were digitally edited to make her look more like Anastasia she does look like her in the photo except for those large eyes Anna Anderson. Yes one can think that Anna Anderson is Anastasia one they look at those photos with the digitally edit appearances change to look like Anastasia. The eyes may give one a doubt becuase they are different. I realy would think that after someone looked at the photo they would have thought Anna Anderson is Anastasia."

Anna Anderson was a "dead ringer" for Anastasia.

And I don't think they had digital editing in the 1920s, 30s, etc!

 :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lemur on September 21, 2007, 12:12:22 PM

She really didn't look much like her, the mouth was very different. The lips are the part that looks least like AN.

Look at this comparison on Annie's site. It shows how they really don't look alike and AA supporters used clever tricks to make her appear to look more like Anastasia. IMO Anna Anderson is a dead ringer for FS.

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/photographiccomparisons.htm

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 21, 2007, 04:20:57 PM
Thanks for posting that, I think I make a very good case that they didn't look alike and the pics were posed or conveniently shadowed.  When you really look at the pics and compare features  it's hard to think how anyone could ever think they look alike.

Poor Princess in Kazan, AA has taken her thread too as she has all others :P
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 21, 2007, 06:10:25 PM

Ferrymansdaughter, I am not talking about them doing digital editing on the pictures like in reccent years of course not in the 1920's becuase they had no computer. It was done around the time that computer was around of course. I am not talking about that!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 21, 2007, 06:40:01 PM


I never thought about that, I guess AA supporters could have 'retouched' some photos! ;) Looking at her pictures, the reason the lips are small in some pictures and not others is because AA was trained to suck her lips in and bite down hard on them because they were so much thicker than AN's she had to hide them.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 22, 2007, 12:20:58 PM

Exactly Annie thats what I am talking about. Yes I would also think that the AA suporters have been altering and retouching the photos to make her features appear more like that of Anastasia. Yes Annie did do that I read it in a book that AA suck her lips in to make them more thinner so they can resemble more to Anastasia's lips. But in the real photos her lips come out thicker though.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Mari on September 29, 2007, 02:26:14 AM
Yes, Oral History is one of the most fascinating to me. It would be nice to know who these Children were! Maybe a great Story just in itself as to who they were and why they were chosen?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 29, 2007, 09:59:42 AM
The Royal Navy did embark surviving members of the Royal Family from the Crimea in 1919 on HMS Marlborough, but the British were generally very loath to take other Russian refugees

They didn't take them to Britain, but they did help Sophie Buxhoevedon and those with her get out of Russia. When they came to Omsk it was occupied by the British, so they got passage out on a military train.

Quote
The British had many irons in the Russian fire at this time, including a well financed plan to purchase Russian Banks and industry in anticipation of a White victory.  If the Whites had won then Britain would have had a huge financial empire in Siberia and the Don Valley that would have equalled or exceeded India - and all legal and obtained at little cost in (British) lives.  Perhaps these people were the children of the Russian financiers and industrialists who sold their shares and capital interests to the British - we'll probably never know, unfortunately.

Hey, that's interesting, it's always good to learn something new like that. I wonder how different Russia would be today if the Whites had won, and I'm sure Siberia wouldn't be a wasteland today if the British had succeeded.


[/quote]
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 29, 2007, 11:49:15 AM
I do not think Siberia is exactly a "wasteland".  It is very underdevloped  and badly managed by the old Soviet system, but has vast resources that insures Russia's future prosperty.  If I read the recent news dstories correctly,   Moscow is now inviting  European and perhaps Asian firms to do exacty what Phil mentioned.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on September 29, 2007, 12:02:26 PM
Okay sorry. I got my impression of from Ewan MacGregor's documentary trip called "Long Way Round." They made it look pretty desolate and unimproved. I know it's not all like that, but with so much land and so little money I assumed most of it was.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Mari on October 01, 2007, 06:28:47 AM
Just out of interest the Empress of Asia was an Armed Merchant Cruiser.

Quote
She was also launched in 1912 and joined her sister Empress of Russia on the company's Pacific routes. She served as an AMC and troopship in WWI and returned to the Pacific after the war. Like her sister she was not converted to oil fuel. Her reliance on coal proved a serious problem during her WWII troopship service -- unable to keep up with faster ships, she was sunk off Singapore by Japanese aircraft on February 5th, 1942. 1 crew member and 15 troops died from the attack and many of the survivors were taken prisoner by the Japanese and incarcerated in brutal prison camps.

members.tripod.com/~merchantships/cprshipslist1.html
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Amanda_Misha on October 02, 2007, 07:14:18 PM
Thanks for the interesting legend of survivor, :)
Greetings to all :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stacey on October 31, 2007, 10:58:29 PM
This reminds me--allegedly sometime after the murders of the Imperial Family, someone started a pretty lucrative scam regarding "escaped" Grand Duchesses and ships.

They hired a young prostitute who bore a marked resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana, dressed her up in "Imperial fashion", and would escort her on board a docked ship with great pomp, claiming that this was in fact Tatiana, that she had escaped, and was boarding the ship on her way to safety out of Russia. Apparently for a fee people had the "honor" of being introduced to the "Grand Duchess", and apparently quite a few people fell for it.

What they didn't know--aside from the fact that she was a prostitute and definitely not a Romanov, much less Tatiana---was that the girl would board the ship, put on her little pretense, and then secretly get off the ship before it set sail.

As I recall this little group of pretenders were eventually nabbed by the cops, thus putting an end to the charade.

I wonder how many honest (if gullible) people went to their graves swearing that they had actually met and spoken to Grand Duchess Tatiana aboard a ship long years before??
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 30, 2008, 02:47:22 PM
I really should go through my files more often.  Here is something from what appears to be a "Times" (London) obituary from November 1988 (alas no closer date) of Commander Wilfred Dunderdale who died in New York on Nov 13th that year, aged 90.  He was born in Russia (Nicholaev??) and recruited by British Naval Intelligence in 1919.  I quote verbatim:

"At a later stage the British were invited to send an observer to accompany the imperial procurator on his investigation of the murder of the Russian imperial family at Ekaterinberg, which had recently been recaptured by the White army.  Given his fluency in Russian Dundedale was chosen for this duty.  Later he was never in any doubt about the falseness of the pretender, Anastasia.  He always said that she was the girlfriend of one of the Tsar's gaolers who was employred by the Tsarina when she required an extra maid.  After Ekaterinberg she returned to Poland where she was employed by the Krupp family."

Dunderdale went on to have a long & successful career in British secret service, probably his greatest feat was in getting the Poles to hand over the Enigma machine & their work on it to the British before the fall of France in 1940.

Dunderdale definitely existed.  I have copies of his service record & various other material.  There is no evidence I can find that he was ever anywhere near Ekaterinberg, no one else mentions him being there, not Preston, not Wilton, not any official paperwork I can find.  So why did he tell the story?  And could it be true anyway?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on March 30, 2008, 08:44:27 PM
I am going to vote no on the story. I am not saying it's a lie, he may have believed it, even been told that, but I don't think it's true. First, Alexandra had no need for an 'extra maid' in Tobolsk because there were a large number of servants there (one list I saw here put it at almost 40) Of course they lost most of their entourage when they were moved to Ekaterinburg, but they still had Demidova and Krupp, and maybe a couple more, and even if they had wanted another one I doubt the Bolsheviks would have been sympathetic to their 'plight' of not being able to do menial tasks for themselves and allowed them to 'employ' anyone else. How would they have paid them anyway? They had no money!

Besides all that, AA was FS, the pics look exactly like her and the DNA matches. FS/AA was never in Ekaterinburg.

There might be a chance this is about a different Anastasia pretender besides AA. That is an interesting possibility if you can find out more.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Halinka on June 17, 2008, 07:47:40 PM

And also the age doesn't match to.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on June 23, 2008, 02:30:03 PM
The Times in 1988 was a newspaper of record.  Your comments merely reflect the low level of this forum.

Shame.  It used to be good and intelligent.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on June 24, 2008, 03:29:16 PM
This original thread slipped by me.  You had no right to stomp all over Phil for this.  If you read his posting CAREFULLY it said "Later he was never in any doubt about the falseness of the pretender, Anastasia."  The Ipatiev House records indicate that women came in to help clean and it would stand to reason that the guards would give the jobs to their girlfriends to help them get extra money.  It also CAN explain how Anna Anderson did in fact learn things. Now maybe there is some doubt, but Phil has every good reason to bring this to our attention and not belittle his efforts.

Phil, I personally apologise for the treatment you received.

FA
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on June 24, 2008, 04:59:42 PM
I just love these little tidbits you find Phil.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Michael HR on June 24, 2008, 09:18:19 PM
Hello,

I am not aware of the time line for Anna Anderson from when she disappeared in Poland to when she turned up in Berlin myself but I suppose at the time he made his report he might have thought AA was the Polish worker, as we know she was, and that explained her knowledge of the family via the guards etc. Also we know there were cleaners as they came in either the day before the murders or the day of the murders to scrub the first floor with the help of some of the Grand Duchesses. We all speak with hindsight but of course he would have made his remarks from information available at the time and Anna Anderson had not been researched then I believe? It may be a case of putting two and two together but getting five.

Has anyone ever written a book about Anna Anderson and her claims for a critical point of view rather than a supporters point of view as that would be quite intresting with what we all know now.

I cannot see a reason why he would lie and he must have told what he believed to be the truth at the time?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 25, 2008, 01:59:22 PM
Has anyone ever written a book about Anna Anderson and her claims for a critical point of view rather than a supporters point of view as that would be quite intresting with what we all know now.

http://www.amazon.com/Romanov-Fantasy-Life-Court-Anderson/dp/0393065774/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214420332&sr=1-1
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RichC on June 29, 2008, 12:23:18 PM
From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (2004 Online Edition):

Wilfred Dunderdale:  Dec 24, 1899 - Nov 13, 1990

Dunderdale, Wilfred Albert (1899–1990), intelligence officer, was born in Russia on 24 December 1899, the son of Richard Albert Dunderdale, a British shipowner, whose vessels traded between Constantinople and the Russian ports on the Black Sea, and his wife, Sophie. He was educated in Russia, at the Gymnasium in Nikolayev, Ukraine, and was studying naval engineering at Petrograd University when the Russian Revolution broke out in 1917. Much of the Russian navy remained in White Russian hands. Dunderdale was contacted by the Royal Navy, who found his great knowledge of the Russian language and the Russian navy invaluable.

At this time Constantinople, where Dunderdale had numerous friends, had been occupied by the allies. On one occasion in 1919 a submarine was being handed over by the allies to the White Russian navy. Dunderdale discovered that the crew were Bolsheviks who intended to murder the tsarist officers together with the liaison officer (himself) as soon as the vessel sailed. The crew was arrested and Dunderdale was appointed MBE in 1920. In the same year he became a sub-lieutenant in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. During this period he was also sent as the British observer and interpreter to accompany the imperial procurator on his investigation into the murder of the Russian imperial family at Yekaterinburg, which had been recaptured by the White Russian army. As a result he remained convinced of the falseness of the pretender Anastasia, who he said was merely the Polish girlfriend of one of the Bolshevik gaolers who had occasionally done some sewing for the tsarina.

The world of Constantinople, from the end of the First World War until Kemal Atatürk deposed Sultan Muhammad in 1922, was one of classical Byzantine intrigue on a grand scale. The only stabilizing factor was the heavy guns of the Royal Navy, which were trained on the centre of the city. Dunderdale was in his element and in 1921 he was recruited by MI6, with whom he remained until 1959. He had found his spiritual home. He always maintained that his first job for MI6 was to pay off, with gold sovereigns, all the foreign members of the sultan's harem and to repatriate them through the good offices of the Royal Navy.


[SNIP] [Rest of the article discusses his life from 1921 until his death in 1990.]

John Bruce Lockhart, rev.

Sources 

personal knowledge (1996) · private information (1996) · The Times (16 Nov 1990) · CGPLA Eng. & Wales (1991)
Wealth at death 

£199,876—effects in England: probate, 23 April 1991, CGPLA Eng. & Wales


Notice that the author is this article is John Bruce Lockhart, a relative of R. H. Bruce Lockhart, who figures in such books as Nicholas & Alexandra.

Anyway, I hope this information helps somewhat.  If the sources for this story are "personal knowledge" and "private information" I imagine the next step might be to attempt to contact Lord Bruce-Lockhart.

**I've modified my post a bit to remove some of the article.  Hopefully this will help keep me within fair use rules.  If anybody would like the entire article, I will be happy to email it to them individually.  Doing that is within fair use.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Halinka on June 30, 2008, 08:49:55 PM
Could you send me the article if that's not to much trouble?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: wilski on November 04, 2008, 03:21:00 PM
Dunderdale's obituary was in the Times on Nov 16 1990
His father Richard who by the way was my great grand father. was as it states a ship owner from Odessa
but what it does not say is that he was the Russian representative of vickers
at 16 biffy had something to do with partially completed submarines from the electric boat company Now i nearly missed this one
 summer 1916 the second batch for the imperial navy ,contract 602-gf the hulls were made by vickers
PLEASE bear with me
so we have connections with vickers and subs  that may be used in a rescue attempt.
Biffy may have gone to Yekaterinburg I have been told that he was there?But they would not say if it was for the British or on behalf of some one else.
also he worked in with a Harold Gibson also born in Russia  when he was working with the Poles.
Can some one please help me  put this all together  i have some information that has not come out about him  or let me see any information you might have    thanks wilski.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Gran Duquesa Anastasia on November 10, 2008, 05:10:13 AM
Look at a Eugenie Smith:
(http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/239/aaesgq2.jpg)

She dosen´t look like Anastasia
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 11, 2009, 07:25:34 AM
hi!!!  you ha the photos of this claimant??? thank you!

Take a look at this, there is a photo of her in this topic:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=895.90
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 11, 2009, 07:49:30 AM
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg165/pierlucountry/IvonovaVasileva.jpg)

Take a look at this:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=895.90
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 11, 2009, 10:42:55 AM
This is everything that I have found today, I'm sorry...however I will intensify my searches.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 16, 2009, 10:25:52 AM
Exactly. The facial features don't match. How can she claim she was Nastya? Obviously pretending for fame and fortune.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: franastasia on January 16, 2009, 10:37:06 AM
ivonova vasileva is anastasia?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Proud_Olga on January 16, 2009, 01:27:00 PM
ivonova vasileva is anastasia?

No, she isn't. All the claimants were fake. Anastasia died along with her family in the night of July 1918. All this was proven by both American and Russian scientists.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 16, 2009, 01:38:27 PM
Exactly. The facial features don't match. How can she claim she was Nastya? Obviously pretending for fame and fortune.

One cannot deny the fame part but as to the fortune, I don't believe Eugenia Smith got rich posing as a Russian Grand Duchess. To me she looks much more like the girls than did Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on January 16, 2009, 04:15:24 PM
Well, her story, the way she acted when trying to prove her claim was actually less convincing than AA. But neither of these women was Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 24, 2009, 02:40:32 PM


One cannot deny the fame part but as to the fortune, I don't believe Eugenia Smith got rich posing as a Russian Grand Duchess. To me she looks much more like the girls than did Anna Anderson.

I agree with you, Lisa. Anastasia's name is not a business.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 24, 2009, 02:49:17 PM
From your picture, Pier, she doesn't look like Nastya. She's got bigger eyes!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 25, 2009, 06:25:37 AM
From your picture, Pier, she doesn't look like Nastya. She's got bigger eyes!

Agree with you. She doesn't look like Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 25, 2009, 08:41:56 AM
From your picture, Pier, she doesn't look like Nastya. She's got bigger eyes!

Agree with you. She doesn't look like Anastasia.

I'm agree, in fact she doesn't look like Anastasia, and in fact I don't believe that she was the real Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 26, 2009, 02:37:56 AM
Welcome *Tina*! I'm still trying to look for info about her, franastasia...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 26, 2009, 03:06:44 AM
From your picture, Pier, she doesn't look like Nastya. She's got bigger eyes!

Agree with you. She doesn't look like Anastasia.

Maybe because she wasn´t Anastasia :) But then again, AA didn´t look like her at all and she could fool many....

Nadyezhda Ivanovna
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/claimants/nadnaivanovnavasilijeva.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 26, 2009, 04:24:36 AM
Totally doesn't look like Anastasia...
Anastasia would not look like that when she gets old.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 26, 2009, 04:38:17 AM

She was totally different, I'm sure that she was not Anastasia.
Thank you for the photo!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: franastasia on January 26, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
Grand Duchess ally you're a legend! A myth !!!!!!!! see the new photos ivonova! Thanks, thanks and thanks again! However, remember: if you find photos of ivonova put into this topic ok? Thanks Grand Duchess ally ....
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: gemellibru on January 31, 2009, 03:15:27 AM
Do you realize that the name of Anastasia has been used for more than 20 people to make money? Romanov poor!
I just found out one thing about Eugene Smith: she and another suitor Goleniewski Michael, who passed himself off as Alexei, organized a staging: Eugenia, at a party, "by chance" met Michael ... Eugenia then says "You are Alexei Romanov, my brother" and Michael replies "And you are Anastasia, my sister !!!".
Do you realize what it does for the money? This story of Eugenia and Michael is appalling! You who do you think?
(http://C:\Users\fabfour\Desktop\Britney spears\2006\Most claimant\07-200815142327.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: gemellibru on January 31, 2009, 03:18:22 AM
(http://runewsweek.ru/images/rubrics/big/07-200815142327.jpg)
This is Goleniewski Michael.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: gemellibru on January 31, 2009, 04:18:14 AM
Franastasia, the web there are only two pictures of Ivanova Vasileva: to face and in profile
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: gemellibru on January 31, 2009, 04:19:15 AM
good sad proud Olga! "all the claimants were a FAKE"...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 31, 2009, 04:55:33 AM
Do you realize that the name of Anastasia has been used for more than 20 people to make money? Romanov poor!
I just found out one thing about Eugene Smith: she and another suitor Goleniewski Michael, who passed himself off as Alexei, organized a staging: Eugenia, at a party, "by chance" met Michael ... Eugenia then says "You are Alexei Romanov, my brother" and Michael replies "And you are Anastasia, my sister !!!".
Do you realize what it does for the money? This story of Eugenia and Michael is appalling! You who do you think?
(http://C:\Users\fabfour\Desktop\Britney spears\2006\Most claimant\07-200815142327.jpg)

New story for me. Thanks for sharing... man, this people just make me angry! >:(
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 31, 2009, 05:50:09 AM
good sad proud Olga! "all the claimants were a FAKE"...

Of course they were fake! That is the reason why they're called "claimants"... ;)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 31, 2009, 12:47:36 PM

Anderson has one thing in common with Anastasia. They are both dead.



Very good conclusion! I agree with you.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 31, 2009, 01:06:52 PM
people are prepared to make anything for the money and the fame.  :(  >:(
I'm agree with you Tina, this story make me angry!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 31, 2009, 01:26:01 PM
Any story of a claimant interests but angers me as well!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on April 22, 2009, 01:01:54 PM
I read her book a while back when I was younger and it brought me to tears. I believed she was the "real" Anastasia until my brain smacked me one and woke me up.
Here are some pictures of her:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/efritsch/Mouse/Page_6.jpg)




In the book of Eugenia Smith there are other photos?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stepan on April 23, 2009, 07:14:50 PM
Yes,there are more photos of her and also of the imperial family in her "autobiography".
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on April 24, 2009, 07:08:42 AM
Can you post her photos?
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stepan on April 24, 2009, 05:41:14 PM
No, I´m sorry I can´t Tatiana. It´s not possible with my computer at the moment.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 08, 2009, 05:16:30 AM
This shows how even different photos of the same subject can look different and how some people will believe anything:  http://digilander.libero.it/jamespaul/fc1.html
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on May 19, 2009, 08:48:15 AM
The story of this claimant is a sad story!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Angelle on July 01, 2009, 07:53:43 PM
 Hi, I'm really new to the site so am really sorry if  seem a bit dense at times! Years ago my Dad told me that one of the Anastasia claimants was probably a servent in the Royal court as she knew so much about the family and the Royal houses etc. He said he'd read it in a book but he couldn't remember the name of the woman or the book. Could this have been Eugenia Smith? I don't know who she was before she claimed to be Anastasia!? Any help would be appreciated!

 Kisses
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 15, 2011, 12:23:32 PM
Apologies if this was already posted somewhere... but I couldn't resist, if it hasn't...

2011 ebook by "Anastasia's granddaughter"!  ;)  http://www.amazon.com/Excerpt-Real-Anastasia-Romanov-ebook/dp/B004SHJB5G/ref=sr_1_21?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1313200058&sr=1-21
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 15, 2011, 01:55:14 PM
BTW, you can read an excerpt from it, it's quite funny. This may be a goof, but maybe not.. Hard to tell with these loons...
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Sunny on August 15, 2011, 02:26:10 PM
Late Czarina Anastasia

Imagine Anastasia really survived (even if DNA said no). But how on the earth could her be a CZARINA?
-_-"
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Sunny on August 15, 2011, 02:29:15 PM
I had some difficulties understand the very first part. was she really lucid when she wrote it, or am i too tired to read iot now?  :-\
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Sunny on August 15, 2011, 02:33:23 PM
the only review:

This book was a work of fiction not real life. The actual Anastasia was unfortunately murdered with her family. Also the entire book is full of inaccuracies. The correct title was Her Imperial Highness, the Grand Duchess. She could not be Czarina unless she married a Czar! DNA tests done in the past few years proved the real Anastasia died along with her family. I never heard of the supposed Anastasia unles you count "Anna Anderson". It your looking for fiction this is it and not good fiction.

Judging from the excerpt, i have to agree.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 15, 2011, 02:59:03 PM
BTW, you can read an excerpt from it, it's quite funny. This may be a goof, but maybe not.. Hard to tell with these loons...
 I have read the excerpt,  and it appears that this is a "self-published e-book"?  Just from the excerpt, there are a number of problems of grammar and punctuation.  Thus I presume there was no proof-reader, other than the author?  I would certainly think that English would be her native language?  
  Added to these questions, there is the, IMO, tiresome and repetitive use of the appositive, "the real Anastasia." As in Shakespeare's words ("Hamlet"),  "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
  The usage of the word "noble" is very strange, IMO, in referring to the supposed "Anastasia," as opposed to using "royalty/Imperial."
  Granted, this is just a VERY LIMITED excerpt, but IMO, reading would be very difficult with the different "twists and turns" demonstrated thus far.  Still it would be interesting to see the method of the appearance of "Czarina Anastasia" apparently in Wisconsin, USA.  Of course, another poster has already picked-up on the "CZARINA" bit.  
   Ideally, I would hope that this author would appear on this Forum (perhaps a member already, under another name?), so that clarifications, etc., could be requested.  
  In the meanwhile, I do believe that I will "pass" on this survivor/claimant, etc.                      Regards,  AP.


  As an afterthought:  This author mentions a "half sister." Several years ago on this Forum, a pair of "sisters" claimed that they were directly descended from the Emperor Nicholas II.....yes, Nicholas II, that's not a typo.  When challenged on this, they replied that THEY had made a typo and were descended from the Emperor Nicholas I (the First). I believe that the sisters used the name surname "Romanov," though both apparently now had married names. Feeling miffed at our understandably astonished inquiries, they ultimately disappeared from this board.  I wonder if there could possibly be a connection here?  Just my own wondering.   AP.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Dust_of_History on August 16, 2011, 11:30:19 AM
I don't know what frightens me more: This ugly obese girl/woman (or whatever) on the picture claiming to be Anastasia's granddaughter or that this crap is sold on Amazon for $22.98! On the one hand you can find the best researched books about the Romanovs ever on Amazon and on the other hand they're selling this! *sigh*
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 16, 2011, 11:59:38 AM
Humorously, I sincerely hope that I am incorrect, but then one never knows! In the somewhat blurry photo, is it a trick of lighting, a hair comb/band or is that a small TIARA this individual is wearing?    AP.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Dust_of_History on August 16, 2011, 12:15:01 PM
Oh yes, I'm sure this enormously precious tiara once belonged to Grand Duchess Anastasia and now it belongs to her! Look at those sparkling diamonds! *sparkle* *sparkle* :-)))) xD
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 16, 2011, 12:19:58 PM
Oh yes, I'm sure this enormously precious tiara once belonged to Grand Duchess Anastasia and now it belongs to her! Look at those sparkling diamonds! *sparkle* *sparkle* :-)))) xD
 Well, if it indeed is, IMO it certainly contrasts somewhat uniquely with the Florida palm trees and the "shopping mall" in the background !   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Dust_of_History on August 16, 2011, 12:34:53 PM
Maybe she likes to go shopping like real princesses do. Seriously speaking I have no words for this.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: TimM on August 16, 2011, 07:20:15 PM
How people can still believe this, after all the evidence that is now known.

I guess the great PT Barnum was right:  There's a sucker born every minute.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 16, 2011, 08:15:46 PM
OH MY GOODNESS.

From reading the first chapter - or the part of it that was on the excerpt - I found myself laughing many times. What in the world - a boy with the wrong gender and a girl in a shell? Really, guys? I don't know if that's exactly right, but I am NOT going back to reread it. I hope the woman does not expect to be believed by hard-core Romanov fans or anybody with even a bit of knowledge on the subject. Aleksandr Pavlovich, you are EXACTLY right about the Hamlet quote. I have never read Hamlet (although I have read Romeo and Juliet =D) but that is perfect. Every other sentence (it seemed): "My grandmother the Grand Duchess Anastasia", or "Czarina Anastasia" - really. Historical facts, please! There were *way* too many male Romanovs for it to be even likely for ANR to become Czarina.

And imagine! Some poor reader, picking up an e-reader and surfing around on it, finding this, and knowing nothing about Russian History or Anastasia, decides to read it and believes every word of it, without bothering to check reliable sources - Nicholas and Alexandra by Robert K. Massie, The Lost Crown by Sarah Miller, or even our very own APTM - and goes his whole life believing that Anastasia lived and shoveled snow in her 70's. At least the two reviews on there (one more since you checked, Sunny!) were both 1-stars. Well, I suppose that's something.

And good grief - it was Maria who's body was found with Alexei! Really, now!

Okay, I'm done with my ranting ;-D
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 16, 2011, 09:56:24 PM

  As an afterthought:  This author mentions a "half sister." Several years ago on this Forum, a pair of "sisters" claimed that they were directly descended from the Emperor Nicholas II.....yes, Nicholas II, that's not a typo.  When challenged on this, they replied that THEY had made a typo and were descended from the Emperor Nicholas I (the First). I believe that the sisters used the name surname "Romanov," though both apparently now had married names. Feeling miffed at our understandably astonished inquiries, they ultimately disappeared from this board.  I wonder if there could possibly be a connection here?  Just my own wondering.   AP.

 August 16, 2011     As a follow-up to my "afterthought" to my comments posted upon receiving/reading the internet location of the e-book excerpt from poster, "Helen_A":  I was able to go back and locate the pertinent section here on the Forum about the  two (alleged) sisters mentioned above.  Their both GIVEN names (or potentially nick-names) began with a "C". Thus it would appear to NOT be a case of their re-appearance in other names, such as that of the e-book author "Diana" given here, and the half-sister (unnamed in the quoted excerpt from the e-book).    AP.
                                                                                                                                        
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 16, 2011, 10:54:24 PM
Aleksandr Pavlovich, would you mind posting the link to the thread that these sisters participated in? It would be very amusing to read, I'd imagine!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 16, 2011, 11:25:45 PM
Aleksandr Pavlovich, would you mind posting the link to the thread that these sisters participated in? It would be very amusing to read, I'd imagine!
  Of course!  "Imperial Claimants Post Here/ Facebook Claimant," Initial post by "Grand Duchess Ally,"  August 13, 2009., et seq.  
  Simply bear in mind, whenever you see the word "Guest" below the poster's name/ pen name  the meaning is that the specific person's account has been terminated here on the Forum, by their own volition or otherwise.  
  Occasionally, one will tiptoe back in under another registration profile/guise/identity, but generally they can be recognized by their manner of expression, content, spelling, etc., thus they tend to keep a lower profile and soon trail off..............      Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 17, 2011, 09:09:07 AM
Thank you for that information! I was wondering how the guests were able to post, but their accounts have been terminated! I understand now!

Thank you, AP.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: koloagirl on August 17, 2011, 03:19:22 PM

Aloha all!

I downloaded the "free" chapter of the Anastasia "book" (and I use that term VERY lightly - lol) --- my favorite part of this excert was the part when......

Anastasia apparently LOVED "Bob's Big Boy" and "McDonald's" - LOL!!!!   OMG....this book might be worth purchasing for the laugh content alone!

Janet R.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 17, 2011, 06:58:21 PM

Aloha all!

I downloaded the "free" chapter of the Anastasia "book" (and I use that term VERY lightly - lol) --- my favorite part of this excert was the part when......

Anastasia apparently LOVED "Bob's Big Boy" and "McDonald's" - LOL!!!!   OMG....this book might be worth purchasing for the laugh content alone!

Janet R.

I know, right! Very hilarious. I only hope that it inspires the readers to research Anastasia after reading it! Then they'll discover it's not true! If not, then . . . chops for them!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 28, 2012, 01:00:24 PM
.... the web there are only two pictures of Ivanova Vasileva: to face and in profile

Is there a photo of this woman in profile? Can someone post it? I've only seen the photo that shows only one part of her face, I've tried to find something else but has been totally unsucessfully!  :(
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on February 28, 2012, 03:51:32 PM
Is this the one you wanted Yelena?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/332-1-.jpg)

I believe it has been posted on the forum before, in another couple of threads. That is her in Profile, and she doesn't look like Anastasia in the slightest! Unofrtunately, I can't find a photo of her face looking at the camera....
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 28, 2012, 07:04:07 PM
Wow! Thank you, I haven't seen it recently but I fear that I've seen it before, perhaps a pair of years ago. I haven't seen photos of her full face,... one poster once made a reconstruction using the half of her face available and using it as the other half. No she doesn't look like Anastasia neither on the "reconstruction", in fact I find her a bit scary...
Thank you very much again!  :)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on February 29, 2012, 10:46:52 AM
You are most welcome!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 14, 2012, 01:26:10 PM
There are a bunch of "dark Anastasias" that I don't remember to see here. From the Russian claimant list at Wikipedia:

1) Josephine Fedele: younger sister Konchetty Fedele - "Olga Nikolaevna" -I've mentioned her at the Olga's claimants thread-.  On the assurances of her children escaped with his brother and sister because of a secret treaty between Germany and Soviet Russia.

2) Lyubka Tersieva: as a citizen of Bulgaria. Её внучка продолжает отстаивать права своей «царственной бабушки». Her granddaughter, continues to defend the rights of his "regal grandmother."

3) Peregudova Alexander: died in the Volgograd region in 1982. According to this version, all the Romanovs survived because a train driver took them to Siberia, he was able to substitute for some seven doubles. The fate of the remaining survivors remained unknown.

4) Anastasia of Moscow: real name unknown.  According to her, "State Secretary" Pakhomenko Leonid Smirnov, who filed an application to the Supreme Court of Russia , she was taken to Moscow in 1918 , along with polka Anna Tshinkovskoy (apparently - the distortion of the name Shantskovska), to play its role in Europe and thus gain access to the Tsar's millions. The real princess, according to Parkhomenko, were sent to Siberia, and her four children poisoned for orders of Stalin. The fifth son he was going to marry his daughter, but allegedly later changed his mind. In the 1980s, the Grand Duchess moved to Moscow.  With his "new name" Alexander Parkhomenko -I suppose the son of this "Anastasia"- declined. Story has not been further progress.
-Sorry for the bad quality of the translation, that makes the story unclear... I've tried to correct it but with not much success-

5) Alexandra Spiridovna Karpenko: resident of Omsk. She died in 1976 . A kind of monarchist-minded conspirators stole Anastasia, and they tried to take her away on a cart. Further in her own words looked like this: "I was carried in a cart, and when the riders have to catch up, I jumped out  in a bog. And when all was quiet, I got out, and we again went on ... ". Apparently she escaped at 1920. She was adopted by a resident of Primorye, Spyridon Miroshnichenko. Her daughter named Anastasia contacted the writer Vladimir -Kashitsem (?, translation unclear)-, and told the "true story" of his mother.

6) Elena Kharkin - appeared in 1943. She was reluctant to talk about her past, however, because of the "apparent similarity" the locals took her by Anastasia Nikolaevna, who survived thanks to the substitution.  Date of death unknown.

7) Anastasia Yakovlevna Karetnikova - also on the assurances of his son, along with Alexei Nikolaevich was injured during the shooting and then kidnapped by some unnamed monarchists.  Rescued children transported to the Urals to the Ataman Dutov.  Alexei died soon, Anastasia was too weak to go to Siberia after the retreating White Army,then she turned to Ksenia Karetnikov, the wife of the commander of the Reds, Budyonny (original Семена Будённого), and she remained with the family Karetnikov.  Later she married Nikolai Ionov and gave birth to two children.  She was killed in August 1936 , and, as her son says, the crime was concealed by the authorities and declared a suicide.
Her son: Anatoly Ionov wanted find solacefor her mother  in the last royal tomb, and he was officially recognized as "the emperor in exile."  He tried to write to President Putin, addressed to the newspapers, but his claims fell on deaf ears.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 14, 2012, 01:29:05 PM
I expect that someone can give more information of the next women that claimed to be Anastasia, they belong to the same list of the other seven that I mentioned before:

8 ) Rosalie Svente (it - Jackie Romanov)

9) Ambers Gannimeb

I think that they didn't became much notorious that the only thing remembered of them are their "names".
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: kolia van ginneken on February 16, 2013, 06:06:25 AM
This thread will be for those who claim to be Anastasia Nicholaevna.  This is not the place to post about Anna Anderson or Eugenia Smith.


Alixz  05/25/09


Hi everyone,

I'm actually working on a film documentary on the Romanovs, and I was wondering if anyone out there had any iformation on a woman who died, in russia, in 1971 claiming to be anastasia? i've searched on the web, but everything is about anna anderson or eugenia smith.
if you could point me in the right direction i'd greatly appreciate it.

thanks
jeremy
Dear jeremy,   sorry   for  this    but   i  am   in  the  possession    of    an   unpublished   file   on   anastasia   anna   anderson     i  think   it  might   be   interesting  to   look   at   it,   what   about   door   and   the   lady    who   died  in   1948    kolia
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: kolia van ginneken on February 16, 2013, 06:18:44 AM
I don't believe in "conspiracy theories." At the same time I thoroughly believe Anna Anderson and Anastasia Romanov to have been the same person.

I simply believe that no human science is infallible. I don't put absolute religious-type faith in any science. Every time we think that we have arrived at infallible scientific knowledge, we are eventually forced to either admit that we are mistaken, OR to adjust our ideas. When so much evidence exists in her favor (memories, scars, birth defects, etc.) I am surprised that so many people have "bolted" from her camp based on one piece of evidence.

Mark my words here, all ye who read. Withink a few years new scientific understandings will arise, understandings that will invalidate everything we now think we know about DNA. It's inevitable. Just be patient. Bide your time. Wait.



Thanks   for   your   reply   i  met  anastasia   Twice  and   i  am   convinced   i  knew    botkins   daughter   and      have   in   my  possession    the   original   file  on  anastasia     people   wold   be  surprised    kolia
Remember, also, that DNA is only the most recent technology that has supposedly proved "AA" to be false. A generation ago people were saying the same things about her having been proved false, based on forensic examination of her ears. Then it was discovered that the pictures they were looking at were "backward." When they examined the pictures correctly they discovered that AA and AN had absolutely identical ears. Eventually the same kind of thing will happen with the DNA results.

What do I think about the DNA? Same old story- different technology. Ho-hum. I'm not shaken.


Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on February 16, 2013, 09:11:18 AM
The DNA evidence is 100% WITHOUT DOUBT.  If you do not understand or accept this, you do not understand what it really means nor how it is done.  You are a new user here.  We do not permit unsubstantiated claims.  Many before you have alleged "Anastasia files" but never actually provide the documentation of what is in them.

UNLESS YOU PROVIDE THE SPECIFIC DOCUMENTATION for independent scrutiny, you may NOT discuss the survival of any member of the Imperial Family.  Those are Forum Rules. Period. We are a place of science, FACT, and supportive documentation.  We have this as a primary duty and obligation because we are used in so many schools and Universities across the globe, we are used a resource by Museum Staff (including Russia) for reliable information, and we are regularly archived by the United States Library of Congress.  We uphold these standards as befits the trust these institutions place in our work here.

If you want to spew fairy stories of survival and "ear analysis" etc. kindly take them elsewhere.

Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Alice on February 20, 2013, 06:34:27 PM
Oh, God . . . I can't believe we're STILL battling the loons after all these years.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on February 20, 2013, 07:15:25 PM
Nothing will change those DNA results, as Admin said, they are 100% correct without doubt! Anna Anderson was not Anastasia or no Romanov relation at all.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 26, 2013, 03:41:42 PM
I think that this is "new" -at least don't remember her-, an "Anastasia" from Philippines!!! :-?

-Tasiya Kazhuhina: In October, 2010, a woman from Philippines named Katherine Paterson claimed that her grandmother "Tasiya" was in fact the Grand Duchess Anastasia. About this woman, Tasiya, was only known that she was a Russian emigrant who moved to Philippines in 1918 when she was 17 years old. She stayed at Manila with other Russian  refugees who had fled from the Communists . On the ship, she was kept in a separate cabin and its contacts with the other passengers were minimal . She stepped to the Philippines without money and without any documents and she stayed on a monastery.
Her passport had the name Tasiya Kazhuhinoy and the Kazhuhina name was not present : the original was, in her own words, very difficult to pronounce for the local population (hereinafter none of her relatives she had not called ). Tasiya lived almost 40 years in a civil union with Lope Pelayo and bore him nine children, but for unknown reasons, she refused to legalize marriage and eventually agreed to a formal marriage only when her husband was dying and it turned out that after his death they children and grandchildren will not receive any inheritance.
Paterson recalled stories about her grandmother giving the impression that Tasiya lived in a rich family. In particular, according to Katherine, she told me that she had three sisters and a brother. She called brother Alex , one of the sisters - Mary. Catherine said that she has received this name thanks to his grandmother, who wanted to name it in honor of Catherine the Great.
When she (her granddaughter who is claiming this story) offered to find her relatives in Russia, Tasiya forbad her to do so, arguing that if "they" find she they would  kill her -unclear paragraph- (she never knew who were "they") . After Tasiya's death, Catherine in early 2010 went with her ​​husband and children to Russia to find any traces about Tasiya and in the same period accidentally found online one photo of Grand Duchess Anastasia. Catherine found (as  she said)  a strong resemblance to the Grand Duchess and the only surviving photo of Tasiya . Then she came to the conclusion that the name could be the end Tasiya named Anastasia and Kazhuhina - a distorted version of the word " Princess ."
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 27, 2013, 12:11:35 PM
Found three photos of this woman, Tasiya Kazhuhina:

I think that this photo must be the one that her granddaughter claims to have a strong resemblance with GD Anastasia... personally I don't find it!!
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Tasiyayoung_zps9df756d7.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/Tasiyayoung_zps9df756d7.jpg.html)

In older age:
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Tasiya2_zpsef54d702.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/Tasiya2_zpsef54d702.jpg.html)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Tasiya3_zpsbea613e2.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/Tasiya3_zpsbea613e2.jpg.html)

For further information, see this (http://lifenews.ru/news/91628) (in Russian)
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: edubs31 on December 27, 2013, 03:23:33 PM
I see a passing resemblance in the first photo, nothing more.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: TimM on January 03, 2014, 04:53:12 PM
She looks as much like Anastasia as I look like Brad Pitt, namely NOT AT ALL!
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on January 13, 2014, 08:11:42 PM
Tayisya looks similar but her face is to short for Anastasia's longer features.
Title: Re: Claimant of Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: TimM on August 01, 2014, 01:18:05 AM
I would have loved to put Anna Anderson and Eugenia Smith in the same room and say:  "Anastasia Nikolaevna, meet Anastasia Nikolaevna!"  

I wonder what would have happened.