Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Iberian Royal Families => Topic started by: kmerov on March 15, 2005, 03:13:29 PM

Title: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 15, 2005, 03:13:29 PM
Great idea with an Iberian royal section..
I would love to know more about Isabella. I know she had many lovers, and was unpopular among the population.
What happend to her after her abdication?
And of cource some pictures of her would be great!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 15, 2005, 03:29:37 PM
Queen Isabel was initially adored by the public and the majority of the nation rallied behind her during the Carlist wars, which led to her side winning these.

But Spain was in decay.  In 1810 a number of colonies were lost, another bunch went in 1821 and by the time of her coming of age the former Spanish Empire in America and the Philippines was reduced to Puerto Rica, Cuba and the Philippine Islands.  It is unnecessary for me to tell you the financial havoc this wreked in Spain's finances.

Add to that a worsening political situation and an endless succession of increasingly weak governments which simply paralyzed the country.

The role pleyd in her fall by the Infante Antoine, Duc de Montpensier, was of extreme importance.  Hungry for the throne himself, Montpensier used his vast fortune to secretly attack her sister-in-law the Queen and organize her downfall...but it back fired as he was never trusted by Spaniards in general and politicians in particular.

Isabel went into exile in 1868 and never again returne dto Spain to live.  She was kept outside of Spain as much as possible since the political class feared her presenc ein Spain would only cause trouble.  She was not happy in 1874 when the restored crown was given to her son, instead of returned to her.

Her marriage to the effete infante Francisco de Asís was another source of much discredit.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 15, 2005, 03:46:56 PM
Thanks as always for this great info. :)
She sounds to have had quite a few things to deal with in her reign..
How was her relationship with her son. Did she blame him in anyway for becoming king?
I gather that the Duke de Montpeniser married a sister of hers. How could he claim the throne. Was he Spanish?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 15, 2005, 04:00:59 PM
Montpensier wanted the throne for his wife, Infanta Luisa Fernanda, Isabel's sister from her father and mother.  As King Consort Montpensier knew he would rule, and not the pious Luisa Fernanda.

Isabel was upset at the situation with her sono, but she knew in the end that what mattered was bringing the monarchy back, irrespective of her or Alfonso wearing the purple.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 04:12:30 PM
This whole arrangement of the 'Spanish marriages' was terrible for both Fernanda & Isabella, wasn't it? They were manipulated by the double dealing of Louis Philippe who was determined to have one of his sons on the Spanish throne. Prince Albert was utterly appalled by it & made every allowance for Isabella's subsequent taking of numerous lovers:
"What will Louis Philippe not have to answer for in Heaven?"  
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 04:27:13 PM
Thanks for posting these  :) She does seem to fit the descriptions given of her...
Was the one on the right from a Spanish newspaper? It seems rather cruel.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: jfkhaos on March 15, 2005, 04:42:20 PM
I don't have the source, unfortunately, for the picture on the right, but I am willing to bet it's a political cartoon lambasting her for leaving the country, or trying to force her out.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2005, 12:40:19 PM
Was anyone else considered to be candidate for her(Isabella II)?Does anyone have pictures of her sister of brother in law(Montpensier)?Thanks
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 16, 2005, 02:05:35 PM
Ok this may be a lot to ask but I know we have some very smart people here so I will go ahead and do it. I have been on many of the Royal genealogy sites and have gotten some of the basics and have been through Massie's "Last Courts" with a fine tooth comb but...

Could anyone please list all of Isabel's children by the names they were commonly known as, pretty please. The girls had so many names included in their titles. I know they were probably just called one name. Plus they were all Marias  :-/. Like Infanta Maria Eulalia was just known as Infanta Eulalia, right.

She had a number of sons die in infancy or that were simply stillborn. Alfonso then would have been her only son to live into adulthood. She apparently had several daughters die young as well. What was the reason for so many of her children diying young. Was it sickness?  Was the Spanish air, so to speak blamed. I mean was it due to sanitation or medical issues? Anybody have any ideas?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 16, 2005, 03:54:35 PM
Isabel's five surviving children (those who reached adulthood) were:

Isabel (1851-1931) - commonly known as la Chata (pug faced) - married to Gaetano of Bourbon-Two Sicilies (1846-1871), Count of Girgenti, who committed suicide.

Alfonso XII (1857-1885) - first married to Maria de las Merceds de Orleans, a duaghter of Montpensier and Luisa Fernanda, secondly married to Archduchess Maria Crisitna of Austria.

Pilar (1861-1879) - unmarried

Paz (1862-1946) - married to her first cousin Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria (1859-1949)

Eulalia (1864-1958 ) - married to her first cousin Antonio of Orleans (1866-1930), only surviving son of Montpensier.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 16, 2005, 04:13:57 PM
Did Isabella approve of her children marrying into the Montpensier family, considering their role in her downfall?
Was her husband the father of all these children?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 16, 2005, 04:28:07 PM
The parentage of Isabel's children is always up for speculation.  Eulalia is reputed to have said that Francisco de Asís was not her father.  Isabel la Chata would have never made any such statements, being the most regal of the siblings.

She was not happy with marriage into the Montpeniser brood, but the Queen and her sister eventually made peace.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 16, 2005, 04:47:55 PM
Thank you so much for listing her children Art.  :).
I have just tracked down the first cousin connection between the younger girls and their husbands as well. I have learned alot today  ;D.

Another quick follow up question.
So when the daughters Maria del Pilar and Maria de la Paz were refered to by family they were called Pilar and Paz?

Also M d Pilar died at 18, what was her cause of death?
Sorry I know VERY little about the older Spanish royals, (well at least before today I did).
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 16, 2005, 06:23:16 PM
Quote
Thank you so much for listing her children Art.  :).
I have just tracked down the first cousin connection between the younger girls and their husbands as well. I have learned alot today  ;D.

Another quick follow up question.
So when the daughters Maria del Pilar and Maria de la Paz were refered to by family they were called Pilar and Paz?

Also M d Pilar died at 18, what was her cause of death?
Sorry I know VERY little about the older Spanish royals, (well at least before today I did).


I have checked several sources here in my library and they all point to the fact that Pilar's death was sudden. On August 3, 1879, she did not feel well...that evening, while reading she suffered convulsions and fainted...she spent the following day in bed...dying on August 5 before the family could reach her bedside.  Only Paz seems to have been present when Pilar died.

Arturo Beéche

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 16, 2005, 07:28:58 PM
Thank you for taking the time to research it Art. I appreciate it. You also inadvertantly answered my other question about what the girls were refered to  ;D.

As far as Pilar's death goes it must just be a mystery as to what exactly caused it. So there was no illness or anything for a period before. It sounds quite sad as she was so young and had a full life ahead of her then all of a sudden she was dead.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 16, 2005, 09:25:48 PM
No illness...she felt ill one day, was dead two days later...awful!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on March 17, 2005, 05:50:03 AM
Grand Duke,thanks for the pictures!Spanish family was huge,so I wonder about their family relations...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 17, 2005, 09:36:55 AM
From what family did her husband, Francisco de Asis come from?  
Does anyone have a picture of him?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 17, 2005, 09:40:31 AM
Infante Francisco de Asís of Spain was the son of Infante Francisco de Paula, a younger brother of King Ferdinand VII, Isabel II's father.

Therefore, Isabel II and her husand were first cousins.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 17, 2005, 09:50:23 AM
Thank you.. how many brothers did Ferdinand VII have? Wasnt it one of his brothers who wanted the throne for himself (the carlists)? Did de Paula support Isabella or his brother? Forgive me for all these questions....
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on March 17, 2005, 09:57:18 AM
Please, no need for forgiveness...questions continue the threads and that is what we are here for...

Ferdinand VII had quite a few brothers.  Four boys were born before Fernando, but all died young.  Infante Carlos, the founder of the Carlist line, was his next brother, followed by Felipe (died in infacy) and Francisco de Paula.  In total King Carlos IV and Queen María Luisa had 14 children between 1771-1794.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 18, 2005, 08:53:18 AM
Thanks. That makes it a bit easier to understand the hole family...
Can someone tell a bit more about Isabellas husband? I have read that she once said, that he should have been a munch.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 21, 2005, 08:29:49 PM
OK, now I didn't get this poem but it was on a French site so maybe the translation's off or it's just really bad poetry.  ;)

On April 19, 1904 ex-queen Isabelle II of Spain died in Paris. Born in 1830, she ascended to the throne at the age of three years and was deposed in 1868 after years of civil wars and plots. She consequently lived in exile, accompanied by her lover the former Marfori actor and by the excessively pious woman Sister Patrocinio. Albert Glatigny devoted a poem in his New Punishments (1870):
The soft Isabelle of Spain
Thought in her apartment,
Patrocinio, her partner,
Priait the sky dévotement (devoted?),
When one said to him: "the empire
Of your friend Napoleon,
A the hour when we speak, expires,
Queen  of Castille and Leon"
P uis (?) one told to him the route (rout?)
of Sedan, this cowardice
Of the man who made bankruptcy
A the honor, with dignity;
How, to save his carts,
His gold, his wandering luggage,
This beautiful smoker of cigarettes
had exclaimed: "I go! "
It is not a heart of Roman
Accepting the heaviest blows,
Certes, which Isabelle walks
Under a velvet blouse,
But if little that that
is to say a woman,
It can still judge
With contempt the infamous lover
Of Marguerite Bellanger.
Also, the innocent Isabelle,
In front of her confused husband,
drew up herself proud,
almost beautiful,
And turning to Marfori:
"By saint John of  Compostelle!
Your heart with all was detected,
One knows your value,
says it,
But you would not have done that! "

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Soledad on March 23, 2005, 07:02:19 PM
Quote
Thanks. That makes it a bit easier to understand the hole family...
Can someone tell a bit more about Isabellas husband? I have read that she once said, that he should have been a munch.


There where many different men considerer suitable for Isabel:
a portugal prince: Carlos Luis de Borbón y Bragança
a Habsburg archiduch (but the Austrians said NO)
another Borbón (a son of Carlos, mainly to end the civil war. Strongly suggested by Great Britain)
an Orleans prince (strongly sugested by the french King)
prince Leopold of Coburg (cousin of the prince consort of England)
and, finally, the son of the younger brother of Ferndinand VII: Infante Don Francisco de Asis y de Borbón

In the end, without considering Isabel's oppinion, it was decided that she was to marry her first cousin the Infante Don Francisco de Asis y de Borbón, and that her sister Luisa Fernanda was to marry one of the sons of Louis-Philippe D'Orleans.
By that time it was arleady known that Francisco was an homosexual, but nobody seemed to care that when considering him as the future husband of Isabel II. Allegedly, when she found out who was destined to become her future husband she shouted "Con Paquita no!" (Not with Franchesca!) as she knew him and didn't want to marry him, she was horrified with the idea. She cried for days. To convince her, her own mother told her that Francisco would be satisfied with the honor of beeing King Consort and the material advanges of the title. She also assured her daughter that him beeing gay wouldn't necessary imply that he would not be able to produce a child.
Once married, they didn't get along very well, if fact, they hatted each other. He blackmailed her with the letters she had written to one of her lovers to get money from her.He ever played a part on her downfall.
Once they where exiled, they lived on separate houses.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2005, 07:59:40 PM
Why the Habsburgs refused offer for the Archduke to become husband of Isabella II?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Soledad on March 24, 2005, 09:50:13 AM
Politics. Metternich said No, and that was the final word.
At that time Austria was in favor of the Carlists. So they didn't recognised Isabel II as the Queen of Spain.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 27, 2005, 01:46:45 PM
Doesn't her crown look a bit like candles on this picture?

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/isabella_ii_spain.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 27, 2005, 08:05:39 PM
There is a nice picture of Pilar on Corbis. At least it says it is her.

Anyone have a photo of the young Isabel (the eldest child).
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Poppy on March 28, 2005, 07:57:30 AM
Queen Isabella II again

(http://cvc.cervantes.es/actcult/museo_naval/vestibulo/personajes/600/personaje_01_an447_al600.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Svetabel on March 29, 2005, 10:38:28 AM
Quote
There is a nice picture of Pilar on Corbis. At least it says it is her.



I believe that photo is not Pilar but Eulalia.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 29, 2005, 11:01:25 AM
Ahhh wow Sveta. Thank you soooo much this is just what I was looking for. I think she was actually quite pretty as a young girl.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on March 29, 2005, 11:01:54 AM
Quote
Although I was kinda hoping it was Pilar as there seem to be less photos of her floating around.

Pilar died when was 18 years-old, in 1879. If you know the date of this photo, we can answer if it is Pilar or Eulalia.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 29, 2005, 11:06:08 AM
Yeah I guess because she died so young is the reason there seem to be less pictures of her. At least I have not been able to find them.

I do not know the date of this photo though, unfortunatly. I am starting to think it is Eulalia instead. ?.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on March 29, 2005, 11:16:45 AM
I think is Eulalia too. Look at this photo and compare the round face between the 2 women - I think they are the same person: Eulalia.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/Sebastiao/alfonso13-eulalia.jpg) King Alfonso XIII with his aunt Eulalia.



(It is not the 1st time I found errors at Corbis)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 29, 2005, 12:39:43 PM
Yes thanks for posting that pic GD. It does seem like it is really Eulalia in the Corbis pic. I have seen a number of errors on there as well.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on March 29, 2005, 03:38:19 PM
Thanks so much for so many pictures!Does la chata means the one who likes to talk much and gossip(that is what I call my spanish knowlege  ;) )?If someone has some [ortraits of their husband it would be very much interesting to see them(especially the colour ones)!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on March 29, 2005, 07:18:28 PM
Yes, thank you all for posting these pictures....
I dont know what all these spanish nicknames mean...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 31, 2005, 08:46:03 AM
Did Infanta Isabella have children? What family in Europe did she marry in to?
Isn't Infanta Eulalia Princess Beatrice's mother-in-law.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 31, 2005, 11:19:12 AM
Quote
Did Infanta Isabella have children? What family in Europe did she marry in to?
Isn't Infanta Eulalia Princess Beatrice's mother-in-law.


Yes Eulalia is Baby Bee's mother in law. Her eldest son Alfonso married Beatrice.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 31, 2005, 11:44:51 AM
Quote
Did Infanta Isabella have children? What family in Europe did she marry in to?
Isn't Infanta Eulalia Princess Beatrice's mother-in-law.


Infanta Maria Isabel Francisca de Asis Cristina Francisca de Paula Dominga  (1851-1931). She married Prince Gaetano of Bourbon-Two Sicilites, Count di Girgenti. It doesn't appear they had any issue as he only 3 years after their marriage. Some of Isabel's jewels passed to the present Queen Sophia of Spain.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 31, 2005, 11:59:26 AM
List of Isabella II's children. She had a few sons but only Alfonso survived to adulthood.

1) Fernando, Prince of the Asturias (b.and d. 11 Jul 1850)

2) Infanta Maria Isabel Francisca de Asis Cristina Francisca de Paula Dominga (1851-1931); m.1868 Prince Gaetano of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Count di Girgenti (1846-1871)

3) Infanta Maria Cristina  (5 Jan 1854-7 Jan 1854)

4) Alfonso XII Francisco de Asis Fernando Pio Juan Maria de la Concepcion Gregorio Pelayo (became King on 29 Dec 1874) (1857-1885); m.(1) 1878 Infanta Mercedes d'Orléans (1860-1878); (2) 1879 Archduchess Maria Cristina of Austria (1858-1929)

5) Infanta Maria de la Concepción Francisca de Asis Isabel Luisa Antonia de Padua Estefania Maria del Olvido Filomena Francisca de Paula(1859-1861)

6) Infanta Maria del Pilar Berenguela Isabel Francisca de Asis Cristina Sebastiana Gabriela Francisca Caraciola Saturnina (1861-1879)

7) Infanta Maria de la Paz Juana Amelia Adalberta Francisca de Paula Juana Bautista Isabel Francisca de Asis (1862-1946); m.1883 Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria (1859-1949)

8)Infanta  Maria Eulalia Francisca de Asis Margarita Roberta Isabel Francisca de Paula Cristina Maria de la Piedad (1864-1958); m1886 Antonio d'Orléans, Duke de Galliera (1866-1930)

9) Infant Francisco de Asis Leopoldo (1866-1866)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2005, 07:38:16 PM
What kind of life did Isabella had after the death of her husband?Did she had any relationships?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Romanov on April 04, 2005, 10:23:22 PM
Was'nt Marie Antoinetts' great nephew in lovw with one of her daughters?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on May 11, 2005, 08:07:57 AM
I'm Spanish and Isabella II remains one of the most unpopular Spanish moanrchs in Modern History (not counting her own father Ferdinand VII, Alfonso XIII and her grandfather Carlos IV). After her abdication and Spain's "false" meddling with Republicanism (I say False because most members of Parliament were Monarchists and the eventually voted for a Monarch, her son, to occupy the vacant throne after Amadeo of Savoy's abdication), she exiled herself in Paris in the Basiliewsky Palace, which was then baptised as the "Palacio de Castilla". Her youngest children, namely Eulalia and Pilar, had a better level of French than of Spanish since they were practically brought up in France (Pilar died young, but Eulalia married an Orléans cousin; her memoirs -written in Spanish- are full of errors, "contaminated" by French mistakes). Queen Isabel returned very seldom to Spain and did not really approve of her son Alfonso XII's marriage to his cousin Mercedes of Orléans. She much preferred his second wife, the dry Cristina of Austria, and was very close to her son's grandchildren after his death in 1885. Her death was much noticed in Spain (1904) but remains one of the alrgest headaches for us Spanish students :P
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on May 11, 2005, 08:46:04 AM


Queen Isabella said she wasn't disgusted by Mercedes, but that she would never give in to the presence of the Montpensiers. Because of that she refused to attend the ceremony. Las Cortes (the Spanish Parliament) also had to approve the marriage between Alfonso and Mercedes. Many deputies were not in favour of the marriage happening, but the argument was closed up when Claudio Moyano said something like this:

'' Well, lets discuss it then. But before we continue with this argument, I must advise the ''Cámara'' that I will not refer with any of my words to Her Royal Highness doña María de las Mercedes.''

There was a large pause after which Moyano continued:

''Doña Mercedes is absolutely out of discussion..., ¡because we can't discuss about angels!''

In the end everyone accepted the marriage after these words.

When Eulalia and Antonio were married, Alfonso had recently died, Isabella was quite depressed, it was a political necessity and Isabella had already made peace with Montpensier and Luisa Fernanda, although this peace was still weak.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on May 11, 2005, 08:52:13 AM
Indeed, and no doubt she was sad when Mercedes died, but all in all I doubt she got rid of ehr skepticism after the wedding. In any case, as Isabella's generation got older they forgot old tensions. After all, she met her estranged husband in Paris several times, which shows how long it took her to "forgive and forget" :) She cried a lot, apparently, when they told her "Paquito" had died.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: gleb on June 03, 2005, 09:08:11 AM
Any pics of Isabella's husband.

Where did they live in exile. Did they separate?

Thanks
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on June 04, 2005, 09:43:19 AM
At best their marriage was nonfunctioning...at worst a veritable nightmare.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on June 04, 2005, 11:07:12 AM
Persistent rumor had it that few if any of  Isabella's children were conceived by her husband Francisco de Asís, a homossexual. The heir to the throne, who would eventually become Alfonso XII, for instance, was widely believed to be Isabella's child by a captain of the guard, Enrique Puig y Moltó.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on June 05, 2005, 06:26:54 AM


Isabel and Francisco were separated by the end of October 1868, just after their arrival in Paris. Isabel lived in the Palace of Castile, in the capital, whilst Francisco moved to the aristocratic and selective area of Épinay-sur-Seine. Isabel lived with her children and Francisco went to Épinay with his many dogs and his secretary and lifetime companion Antonio Ramos de Meneses.


Eventually, Francisco and Isabel started to see each other with a great frequency and when María Cristina de Borbón, Isabel's mother, died in 1878, they were seen very amicable. The deposed Queen and her husband became the friends they had never been during their 22 years of cohabitation in Madrid.

When Francisco died, in 1902, Isabel ''lloró a mares'' (she cried a lot), and she went on crying for his death several months, suffering for the loss of her "Paquito".

The homosexual condition of Francisco de Asís de Borbón has not been proved. It is very possible that some of Isabel's children were not conceived by Francisco, but there must have been some (my guess is that all of the children who died young were his, as their marriage was one of the marriages with the worst endogamic nature I never heard of in Europe's Royalty.) Francisco was probably a bisexual, or, at least, not a very passionate lover with his wife. Many have said, without any proof, that Francisco and Ramos de Meneses were lovers since they met each other. This could be true, but again it doesn't prove Francisco's homosexual nature, as during his exile in Paris, he had an affair with a German opera singer, Hortensia Schneider. The letters he wrote to her were quite erotic (if not slightly pornographic) and not the letters a shy and frustrated homosexual would write to a female lover. On the other hand, Ramos de Meneses married twice and we know he had an intense affair with a prostitute called ''La Choriza'', of low extraction.

Quite contradictory, isn't it? Although I think Francisco was a bisexual and Isabel an unfaithful wife.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: gleb on June 05, 2005, 06:44:03 AM
Many Thanks Umigon, you were very kind!

I found this very interesting!

Maybe after years of marriage the were like brother and sister, so she suffered a lot...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on June 05, 2005, 06:49:29 AM
Yes, that is what I meant!!

They ended up being very close to each other, but, as you said, it was a brother-sister or friends relationship. No, after their separation they never behaved like husband and wife again.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: gleb on June 05, 2005, 01:08:40 PM
I saw a pic of the funeral of Isabella II, in Paris.

Was she then taken to the Escorial cript? Or is she buried in Paris? And her husband?

Thanks


p.s.

Do you have pics of the Spanish royal palaces?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on June 05, 2005, 02:00:59 PM

Both are buried in El Escorial, their tombs making their respective pair. The years of the moving of corpses are unknown to me, but I'll try to get them!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on June 18, 2005, 05:11:05 AM
I once say a photograph of him in which he reminded me a lot of Alfonso XIII (I was struck by it because there's talk that Francisco didn't father Alfonso's father and namesake). I don't think his life was at all envious.....
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 05:07:18 AM
She died in exile, didn't she? Not a particularly successful Queen . . .
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 14, 2005, 05:39:42 AM


Yes, noy only an unsuccesful queen, but also an unsuccesful woman.


Poor Isabelita, she must have been such a good and amusing person...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 05:51:36 AM
Do you think? Could someone tell me a little about her? I know very little . . .
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 14, 2005, 06:14:17 AM


Isabel was born on October 10th, 1830 to King Fernando VII and Queen Maria Cristina, born a Princess of the Two Sicilies. In 1832 a baby girl, Luisa Fernanda, followed.


Isabel was her father's legitimate heir, as he had abolished the Salic Law, bhut her uncle, infante Carlos María Isidro, refused to see Isabel as his Queen and fled the country, starting the Civil wars known as 'guerras carlistas' and starting a new dynasty, that of the Carlist Bourbons, Kings in the exile.


Isabelita became Queen at the tender age of three, when her father died (1833) with only 49 years of age. Her mother became Queen Regent, but she was forced to fled to France in 1840. Not only because the economy of the country and other aspects of her government had not been good, but also because she was doing strange negotiations with art pieces and many people knew about Maria Cristina's second and morganatic marriage to a commoner - she no longer was the Queen Dowager, but Mrs. Muñoz!


A Regency by don Baldomero Espartero passed away (1840-1843) and Isabel's majority was declared when she was just thirteen.

Her education had been awful and she and Luisa Fernanda were a bit less than ignorants. In 1846 Isabel was forced to marry her cousin, Infante don Francisco de Asís de Borbón. She was sixteen and he was 24. Isabel didn't want to marry her cousin, as he was effeminate and cultivated.


The marriage was a failure, but it 'officially' produced 12 children. Of these 12, only five (Isabel, Alfonso, Pilar, Paz and Eulalia) survived infancy. I said 'officially' because many of Isabel's children are supposed not to have been fathered by King Francisco.


Isabel took a lot of lovers, while Francisco was often engaged in jealous attacks which were nothing more than his method of calling for attention and trying to gain more influence in the government of Spain.


In Spain many parties succeeded each other in government and nothing was resolved. In 1868, fed up of corruption and poorly prepared governments and Head of State, a revolt started against Isabel's Crown. She was thrown off the Crown in September, after the 'Glorious' Revolution and the battle of Alcolea. Isabel went to live in Paris with her children, and she was soon separated from Francisco, who went to live in Paris's suburbs.


In 1870 she abdicated her rights in her son Alfonso, who was to become a restored King in 1874. Isabel, very hurt with what Spaniards had done to her, only came to Spain for visits and celebrations (except her son's first marriage to her niece Mercedes of Orleans, a wedding she did not attend because she was at odds with her sister Luisa Fernanda and her husband Montpensier).


Isabel died on April 9th, 1904 in her palace in Paris. Her grandson, Alfonso XIII, was King of Spain.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 08:05:07 AM
Thanks, umigon!

So, was Francisco made King Consort? Was this Isabel's decision?

BTW, I assume her parents were related . . .?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 14, 2005, 09:02:59 AM


Yes, they were very closely related. From my point of view, theirs was the marriage with the worst consangineous relationship I have ever heard of after Ancient Egypt...


Their fathers (King Ferdinand VII and infante don Francisco de Paula) were brothers, and their mothers (Queen Maria Cristina and infanta Luisa Carlota) were sisters. Ferdinand and Francisco's parents were first cousins and Maria Cristina and Luisa Carlota's aswell. Then, Maria Cristina and Luisa Carlota's mother was Ferdinand and Francisco's younger sister. As you can see, a complicated family tree!!


In Spain, until the Constitution of 1978, there was no such tthing as Prince Consort. The reigning queens had their husbands entitled as King Consort and for this there are many examples:

1- Munia Mayor of Castile, in the 9th century, abdicated Castile on her husband.

2- Queen Urraca I made her three husbands King Consort of Castile.

3- Queen Petronilla I of Aragon reigned jointly with her husband Raymond Berenguer of Barcelona.

And then much recent examples as Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand (the Catholics) and Queen Joan the Mad with King Philip of Austria.  Isabel II was not an exception and she made her cousin King Consort the same way a King would make his wife a Queen Consort.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 09:15:10 AM
King Consort . . .how very unusual that is anywhere else . . .Was Isabel's funeral well attended - was she mourned in Spain?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on August 14, 2005, 09:58:44 AM
Quote
King Consort . . .how very unusual that is anywhere else . . .


In Portugal was the same: the law stated that the reigning queen's husband should be entitled King Consort only when the first child of their marriage was born.
The Portuguese only cases were:

- Maria I and her husband Peter III.

- Maria II and her husband Ferdinand II (Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 02:21:29 PM
Did the King Consort's regnal numerals continue - for example, if Maria and Peter had called their son Peter would he have been Peter IV?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 14, 2005, 04:30:06 PM


yes they did, in fact, their grandson was Peter IV of Portugal!

In Spain, on the other hand, the King Consorts didn't add a number to their name.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 04:36:23 PM
Quote

yes they did, in fact, their grandson was Peter IV of Portugal!

In Spain, on the other hand, the King Consorts didn't add a number to their name.


Thanks for that, umigon! The King consort thing is an interesting notion . . . did they technically outrank their wives in precedence, preceed them into a room etc?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on August 14, 2005, 07:56:24 PM
Isabel was a victim of international politics, sacrificed to the exigencies of political ambitions.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 05:50:14 AM
Did Isabel continue to style herself Queen for the rest of her life?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 07:36:07 AM


No, when she abdicated in Alfonso in 1870 she stopped styling herself as Reigning Queen, she was then the Queen Mother.

In fact, she was probably willing to abdicate as, when she had done the deed, she threw herself on a sofa and exclamed: 'That was a real weight off my mind!'
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 07:42:04 AM
Quote

No, when she abdicated in Alfonso in 1870 she stopped styling herself as Reigning Queen, she was then the Queen Mother.

In fact, she was probably willing to abdicate as, when she had done the deed, she threw herself on a sofa and exclamed: 'That was a real weight off my mind!'


What a story! Preumably she stilled styled herself 'Her Majesty'? What about her husband? What was his style from the abdication?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 07:46:07 AM


Both where Her and His Majesty respectively, so they were still styled as Queen and King, but no more as Queen regnant.

And about the precedence, Isabel always went before Francisco, she was the rightful queen!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 07:50:16 AM
Quote

Both where Her and His Majesty respectively, so they were still styled as Queen and King, but no more as Queen regnant.

And about the precedence, Isabel always went before Francisco, she was the rightful queen!


She went before him? I'd say he didn't like that . . .
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 09:02:19 AM


Well, during the first months of their marriage, Francisco had wished that their union would be like Ferdinand and Isabella's that is, joint rulers of Spain (Tanto monta, monta tanto...) but it was soon clear to him that this would never occur.

He used his constant attacks of jealousy to get economic benefits and political charges for him and his friends, but he wasn't as successful as he would have liked to!

About him being angry for not having precedence over Isabel ... I don't think that would have mattered too much if he had had more power! Still, protocole in Spain was not as important as in Britain or Austria, Isabel was a very amusing person and she used to have private parties at a popular restaurant called Lhardy (which by the way, it still exists!) where she sometimes got drunk. This parties were so noisy and they lasted for so long in the night that the police had to intervene sometimes!!


I can't imagine Queen Victoria in such parties!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 09:50:39 AM
Yes, without doubt QV would have been 'not amused'. ; - )
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2005, 08:03:30 AM
I think the legend that Fransisco de Asis was gay came about as since Isabella II had a great apetite for sex (like all borbons), the couple did not even consummate their wedding night sent tongues wagging.

Isabella II was told to have said "What shall I say of a man, who on his wedding night wore more lace than I ?"
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 30, 2005, 08:56:31 AM


I tend to believe that Francisco must have been bisexual, but not gay. In the French exile he had a hot affair with an opera singer, Hortensia Schneider.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2005, 09:11:48 AM
Well...I don't think that he produced any bastards...a clear indication of virility in the Bourbon family.

Anyhow his feminine appearance (at his wedding he was described as "like a young girl dressed like a general.") did not help his case. A hot affair ? They might be close friends...nobody know what happens in the bodouir, the only one who did tell was his wife Isabella II, who did have lots of affairs (A true bourbon !) and should know...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 30, 2005, 09:17:26 AM

Yes, but Isabel never said he 'was' gay. And the marriage was indeed consummated. And yes, a hot affair, at least that's what their letters (quite obscene) said...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 30, 2005, 09:18:51 AM
'Hot affair'.  ;D I'm so glad we use euphenisms here.  ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 30, 2005, 09:24:07 AM
Whatever happens it is true that Francisco de Asis cannot satified his sexually active wife.

When Infanta Eulalia was being investigated by the French lawyers who represent her estanged husband to prove her adultery, Queen Isabel II said "What can I do ? She is so like me...".
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 30, 2005, 09:28:59 AM
Quote
Whatever happens it is true that Francisco de Asis cannot satified his sexually active wife.

When Infanta Eulalia was being investigated by the French lawyers who represent her estanged husband to prove her adultery, Queen Isabel II said "What can I do ? She is so like me...".


I agree with you there, Francisco was unable to satisfy Isabel, whatever it was his condition. And Isabel was unable to be a faithful wife...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: kmerov on November 02, 2005, 08:48:23 AM
Isabella with Alfonso and Maria-Christina.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/gamleisabella.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2005, 10:05:14 AM
Any photos of poor Infanta Pilar who died young ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on November 04, 2005, 12:54:11 AM
Quote
This is such a beautiful picture! I just love seeing and posting royalty in beautiful gowns.

The infanta was Beatrice's mother-in-law?? Beatrice must had been really young in the family.


The Infanta Eulalia was born in 1864.  At the age of 22 she gave birth to her first child, a baby boy who was named Alfonso, in honor of his recently deceased uncle, Alfonso XII.  Beatrice of Edinburgh was born in 1884, being two years older than her husband Infante Alfonso, Eulalia's eldest son.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 04, 2005, 01:15:09 PM
Eulalia had a very bad marriage, while Ali and Bee had a wonderful marriage. Life is sometimes unfair.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on November 05, 2005, 07:57:30 AM
I'll second that. I've read Eulalia's memoirs and it's rather sad that Eulalia's marriage wasn't a happy match, though she was a bit peculiar, to say the least, since she tended towards liberal ideas and her writings have a shade of feminism, and several people considered her at court a "revolutionary". I suppose that with all the cousin-marriages within the Bouro family at the time, one or two were bound to end up badly.

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs28/mariaspain1864.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2005, 09:07:20 AM


Wonderful pics, Cimbrio, thank you very much!


Yes, Eulalia and Antonio's marriage was a disaster, but she always put the blame on her husband, when actually she was probably much more guilty for their bad relationship than him!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 09:49:46 AM
Thanks for the images...I think King Francisco de Asis has more than 2 sisters I think.

Also is there one of Infanta Pilar, the one who died early ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2005, 10:31:20 AM


Just found Pilar's photo, here you are, Eric:


(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/9/7/9726761a.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 11:12:45 AM
Thanks ! She looked lovely. I heard she was in love with the Prince Imperial before her death.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2005, 11:25:59 AM


Yes, she was the prettiest of Isabel's daughter's. Yes, she was in love with the Prince Imperial and the latter's mother, Eugenia, promoted the marriage, even though her son wasn't much in favour. However, the marriage could have eventually happened if the Prince Imperial hadn't been killed in Africa, quickly followed by Pilar's early death!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2005, 11:28:28 AM
Pity...She would have made a lovely bride. In fact, Eulalia wrote that she was quite beloved in the family and had a quiet temperment.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2005, 11:53:26 AM
Alfonso XII used to say that, in his home, his siter Isabel represented the pride of the family, Pilar the sweetness, Paz, the tranquilityand Eulalia the happiness.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2005, 07:04:19 AM
Yes Alfonso XII did love his sisters very much. He was especially close with Paz, Pilar and Eulalia, who were closer to him in age. "La Chata" is a bit older...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2005, 09:21:03 AM
I like Isabella II in all the laces and flounces, it was an imposing sight and fun as well.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Svetabel on November 11, 2005, 02:39:43 AM
IMHO, she looks too fat and sometimes funny in all the light laces and flounces.

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 11, 2005, 05:36:09 AM
Yes...but Isabel la II was a funny and dramatic lady, and black was to boring for her nature. Her wigs are funny looking too...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: isabel on November 11, 2005, 03:19:30 PM
I am agree with Eric, the laces and flounces were a piece of her personality.

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Felipe II on December 02, 2005, 09:56:59 AM
DON FRANCISCO DE ASIS MARIA FERNANDO DE BORBÓN

Born 13 May 1822 Aranjuez, Madrid, Spain
Died 16 April 1902 Epinay-Sur-Seine, Seine, France

Duque de Cádiz
King Consort of Spain 1846-1868


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Don_Francisco_de_As%C3%ADs.jpg)

He was the son of Francisco de Paula de Borbón, Duque de Cádiz (1794-1865), and Luisa Carlota di Borbone, Principessa dei Due Sicilie (1804-1844). He married Isabel II, Reina de España (1830-1904), daughter of Fernando VII, Rey de España (1784-1833), and Maria Cristina di Borbone, Principessa dei Due Sicilie (1806-1878), on 10 October 1846 in Madrid, Spain.

Is it true that he was a homosexual?
Who knows other pictures of him?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: gogm on March 22, 2006, 01:45:37 AM
Quote
I'm Spanish and Isabella II remains one of the most unpopular Spanish moanrchs in Modern History (not counting her own father Ferdinand VII, Alfonso XIII and her grandfather Carlos IV). After her abdication and Spain's "false" meddling with Republicanism (I say False because most members of Parliament were Monarchists and the eventually voted for a Monarch, her son, to occupy the vacant throne after Amadeo of Savoy's abdication), she exiled herself in Paris in the Basiliewsky Palace, which was then baptised as the "Palacio de Castilla". Her youngest children, namely Eulalia and Pilar, had a better level of French than of Spanish since they were practically brought up in France (Pilar died young, but Eulalia married an Orléans cousin; her memoirs -written in Spanish- are full of errors, "contaminated" by French mistakes). Queen Isabel returned very seldom to Spain and did not really approve of her son Alfonso XII's marriage to his cousin Mercedes of Orléans. She much preferred his second wife, the dry Cristina of Austria, and was very close to her son's grandchildren after his death in 1885. Her death was much noticed in Spain (1904) but remains one of the alrgest headaches for us Spanish students :P


I'm still unsure about why Isabel II was deposed. It sounds like she wanted to go in some direction the political leadership was opposed to. Did she want to go in the direction of absolute power?

Did she want to press modernization of Spain when the ruling political leaders did not?

Was she unable to provide strong leadership when the political process became unstable?

What made her so unpopular and makes her unpopular today?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on April 06, 2006, 05:54:49 AM
Isabel reigned for a total of 35 years (the first few during two regencies); on the whole I think that period was a disaster. Politically she was very unstable and was almost dethroned in 1854; Spain was hardly modernised at all while other countries like Great Britain or Italy where knowing advantageous changes.

Plus, the fact that she was a woman had prompted civil war ever since she became queen, and she remained quite unpopular; alas, she did little to solve the problem, and was often the subject to caricature. To this you have to add the comic figure of her feeble husband, Francisco de Asís, and the fact that she kept so many lovers that many of her children are thought to be the ultimate product of these extramarital relationships.

In fact, such is the inbred percentage of her children that it has been suggested that those that survived childhood were actually NOT the children of her husband (and not all of the same father by any means).

Her first child, a son, lived only a few hours, but was totally healthy. Unfortunately it was in breech position and may have suffocated during birth. For the occasion many courtiers had assembled to proclaim the child Prince or Princess of Asturias, regardless of its sex. A year later the Queen produced a daughter, Isabel (later Countess of Girgenti). In 1854 a girl, María Cristina, was born, but died shortly after her christening when she was just three days old. Here is a detailed list of Isabel II's children.

1. A son, sometimes refered to as Francisco de Asís or Francico de Asís Leopoldo; born on July 12 1850 in Madrid; he died the same evening. The Queen had gone into labour shortly before making her daily afternoon walk.

2. María Isabel Francisca (plus many other names), born on December 12th 1851 in Madrid; she married her distant cousin, Gaetano of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and became through marriage Countess of Girgenti. She was also twice Princess of Asturias (from her birth till that of her brother Alfonso, and from his accession to the throne in 1874 till the birth of his first daughter Mercedes). After her husband's violent death she continued to attend her public duties and died in Paris shortly after the proclamation of the II republic in Spain in 1931.

3. María Cristina was born on January 5th 1854 and died shortly after her christening three days later.

4. Miscarried child on September 23 1855.

5. Francisco de Asís leopoldo, born and died on 21 June 1856.

6. Alfonso XII, future King of Spain, born in 1857 and died of tuberculosis in 1885.

7.  María de la Concepción, born in 1859 and died in 1861. She died of internal brain stroke.

8. María del Pilar, born in 1861 and died in 1879 in Guipúzcoa.

9. María de la Paz (1862-1946) was married to her cousin Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria. Had three children. She died after falling down the stairs in Nymphenburg Palace, Munich.

10. María Eulalia (1864-1958) married her cousin Antonio, Duke of galliera. They had two sons before separating. Her behaviour was often the subject of criticism within the palace.

11. Francisco de Asís (24 January 1866 - 14 February 1866) was the Queen's last child. She was 36 at the time.

The Queen herself died of flue and chronic bronchitis in 1904, twoyears after her husband.

Hope it helps, though the facts may have already been submitted.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: cimbrio on September 23, 2006, 08:42:37 AM
I was just browsing Infanta Paz's (1862-1946) article on Wikipedia (German version :http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_de_la_Paz_von_Spanien) and was VERY surprised to see that in the article it states she and her husband, Prince Louis Ferdinand, had FOUR  :o children! Ferdinand Maria (1884-1958), Adalbert (1886-1970), Maria del Pilar (1891-1987) and FRIEDA AMALIA (1886-1945), who married someone called Ernst Helft and had two children by him, Ilse and Horst. I know this must be some sort of error. In 1886 Infanta Paz gave birth to her son Adalbert. I have checked the Almanach de Gotha I have from 1902 and she is evidently not listed. Plus, only the article in German gives such information... Who was this Frieda Amalia in reality?
"Frieda Amalia wurde im Jahre 1886 als Tochter des Prinzen Ferdinand Maria Ludwig von Bayern und seiner Gattin Maria de la Paz, Infantin von Spanien.

Als sich Frieda Amalia 1910 in den Bürger und Metzger Ernst Heft verliebte, sich jedoch nicht mehr mit ihm treffen durfte (weil er ein Bürgerlicher war), riss sie zusammen mit ihrem Liebsten aus und heiratete ihn schließlich am 13. Juni 1912. Als ihre Eltern dies erfuhren waren Sie so erbost, dass sie Frieda Amalia aus der Königlichen Familie ausschlossen. Seither wurde sie nicht mehr schriftlich oder anderweitig erwähnt. Frieda Amalia war eine der ersten Prinzessinen die ausrissen und das Leben als Bürgerliche wählten. Sie war somit eine Revolutionärin.

Zusammen bekamen Frieda Amalia und ihr Mann Ernst Heft zwei Kinder:

    * Ilse (gest. 1984) oo Kurt Ledig (gest. 1989)
    * Horst (gest. 2001)

1945 starb Frieda Amalia."
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 24, 2006, 09:13:34 AM
Dear cimbrio,

as I live in Bavaria, I am very interested in the Bavarian Royal Family. I have a lot of books and sources, but I've never heard of a Princess called "Frieda Amalia". What a name ... just imagine "Princess Frieda of Bavaria"!  ;D This is definitely nonsense.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marlene on September 28, 2006, 02:24:26 PM


Which proves my point:  Wikipedia is not the place to go for information.  Anyone can write an entry and submit it.  Obviously the case here -

I was just browsing Infanta Paz's (1862-1946) article on Wikipedia (German version :http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_de_la_Paz_von_Spanien) and was VERY surprised to see that in the article it states she and her husband, Prince Louis Ferdinand, had FOUR  :o children! Ferdinand Maria (1884-1958), Adalbert (1886-1970), Maria del Pilar (1891-1987) and FRIEDA AMALIA (1886-1945), who married someone called Ernst Helft and had two children by him, Ilse and Horst. I know this must be some sort of error. In 1886 Infanta Paz gave birth to her son Adalbert. I have checked the Almanach de Gotha I have from 1902 and she is evidently not listed. Plus, only the article in German gives such information... Who was this Frieda Amalia in reality?
"Frieda Amalia wurde im Jahre 1886 als Tochter des Prinzen Ferdinand Maria Ludwig von Bayern und seiner Gattin Maria de la Paz, Infantin von Spanien.

Als sich Frieda Amalia 1910 in den Bürger und Metzger Ernst Heft verliebte, sich jedoch nicht mehr mit ihm treffen durfte (weil er ein Bürgerlicher war), riss sie zusammen mit ihrem Liebsten aus und heiratete ihn schließlich am 13. Juni 1912. Als ihre Eltern dies erfuhren waren Sie so erbost, dass sie Frieda Amalia aus der Königlichen Familie ausschlossen. Seither wurde sie nicht mehr schriftlich oder anderweitig erwähnt. Frieda Amalia war eine der ersten Prinzessinen die ausrissen und das Leben als Bürgerliche wählten. Sie war somit eine Revolutionärin.

Zusammen bekamen Frieda Amalia und ihr Mann Ernst Heft zwei Kinder:

    * Ilse (gest. 1984) oo Kurt Ledig (gest. 1989)
    * Horst (gest. 2001)

1945 starb Frieda Amalia."
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on September 30, 2006, 10:51:42 AM
Whhat nonsense...a Bavarian royal named Frieda?

Wikipedia is a nice site...no doubt...but should not be taken verbatim...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on February 17, 2007, 04:58:25 PM
This little girl was Isabel, was more than an infanta of Spain, daughter of the queen Isabel II: she also was seen as of Princess of Asturias, this mean, the presumptive heiress of the throne, for a first time before the birth of her younger brother Alfonso (later Alfonso XIII) and for a second time before the birth of the firstborn daughter of Alfonso, Maria de las Mercedes.

She was always very close to Alfonso, her brother, and she was really supportive to her first cousin and sister-in-law Maria de las Mercedes, but, later, she was in good terms with Maria Cristina of Austria. King Alfonso XIII and his sisters loved so much their aunt Isabel.
By the way, she din´t get along well with her sister Eulalia. The two woman were the opposite. Isabel had a great sense of her role, she never understood Eulalia taste for breaking the rules. But Isabel was a charming woman, gentle and with an excellent humour, and all the spanish people loved her deeply.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2007, 08:15:18 PM
Infanta Doña Isabel de Borbón y Borbón of Spain (1851-57 and 1874-80 Heiress Pressumptive )
The daughter of Isabel II she was the heir until the birth of her brother, Alfonso XII and after his succession to the throne until the birth of his daughter in 1880. Before her marriage to Prince Gaetano of the Two Sicilies, an act was drawn up for his signature which would require him to renounce the Two Sicilies Throne if his wife became Queen of Spain - to prevent the union of the Spanish Crown and “Italian dominions” as required under the Pragmatic Decree of 1759. Gaetano was created an Infante of Spain but was never required to sign the act undertaking to renounce which remains, unsigned, in the Family Archives in Naples. He died in 1871 without leaving issue. Isabel lived (1851-1931)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on February 17, 2007, 08:30:00 PM
courtesy of cimbrio on the Infanta Eulalia thread:

Out of Isabel II's surviving daughters (Isabel, Paz and Eulalia), the two latter were closer, due to their age, upbringing and marital status, since Isabel was a young widow when Paz and Eulalia were still very young. Though Eulalia lived at the Spanish court for many years even after her marriage, she visited her sister Paz in Nymphenburg on a yearly basis; Eulalia took every chance she could to go to Berlin to visit her old friend, Kaiser Wilhelm, whom she met at QV's Jubilee in 1887. According to her Memoires, in the Potsdam palace there are several rooms nicknamed "the infanta Eulalia's rooms".

Infanta Isabel was brought up in a strict, conservative court in Madrid. She was nineteen when her mother was overthrown, while Eulalia was just four and hardly remembered Spain when she came back in 1876 with her mother and sisters (Pilar died unexpectedly in 1879). Paz was always on good terms with both her sisters, but there was constant friction between Isabel and Eulalia due to their different education and moral standards. Even so, when Isabel died in France in 1931, Eulalia was at her deathbed... Paz died in 1946 and Eulalia in 1958.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on February 18, 2007, 03:02:19 AM
The marriage was not a succesful one. The spanish court was convinced about Isabel marrying Philip, duke of Flandes, but the belgian court choose another princess for their king Leopold I´s brother, Marie of Hohenzollern-Sigmarigen. So, queen Isabel quickly arranged the engagedment between her elder daughter and Gaetano. They were married on 13 May 1868 and, after the wedding, they fled from Spain for the honeymoon. It was not a sweet honeymoon, by the way: Isabel discovered her husband was epilectic and a depressed man. When they were involved in these sad few months of marriage, the revolution of 1688 broke up in Spain. In september, just four months after Isabel´s wedding, queen Isabel, her husband Francisco de Asis and the other children went into exile, to Paris.
Isabel was only twenty and Gaetano twenty-five, he commited suicide in Lucern, Switzerland.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on November 05, 2007, 07:32:56 AM
Alfonso XII used to say that his sister Isabel represented the pride of the family; Pilar, the sweetness; Paz, the calmness; and Eulalia, the happiness. An accurate description for all of them, I would say. He would have known better than anyone, of course.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2007, 07:35:12 PM
Good quote indeed ! Thanks ! Sad that sweetness was the first to go in a family that needed it much.  :(
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Norbert on December 23, 2007, 02:44:02 PM
A wonderful quote from Queen isabella II about her wedding day. " What can you say of the groom who wore more lace than the bride"
Interestingly two of her sisters-in-law eloped with their lovers.
 Poor Isabel ran off with Count Gurowsky and no marriage certificate can be found.  After 8 children he deserted her for Poland and she was found as a tramp in Paris .
 Her sister Josefina ran away with a penniless Cuban radical and had 3 sons who were later created marquesses.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 26, 2007, 11:20:54 PM
These are indeed "hot" infantas that cannot keep their passion under control... :o
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2008, 02:25:28 PM
I am always amused how many portraits of Isabel II had been painted during her life-time! Good to be a Queen  :)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Luc on August 22, 2008, 07:56:17 AM
The Infanta Isabel as young woman:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Maria_Isabel.JPG

Very nice  ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 11:55:16 AM
She was a serious girl and lived a tragic life with her husband, who killed himself. As she was once the Princess of Asturires (heiress to the throne) before her brother was born and was second in line (if her brother dies without heir). She was dutiful and proper...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 13, 2008, 12:54:52 PM
I read in some other royalty forum about Gaetano`s  Sexuality. Is it true that he was caught with another man by Isabel?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 01:29:53 PM
Not sure about that. However he was constantly ill and poor Isabel played nurse throughout their marriage...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 13, 2008, 01:58:12 PM
I never saw a picture about him till today and yes, he looked very ill in those i saw. Poor Chabela...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 02:18:51 PM
Indeed a bad match...looked good only on paper. She did not marry again after his death.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 13, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
I wonder why she didnt do it...She was still young and beautiful
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 02:22:51 PM
Maybe one husband was enough for her. Her own parent's marriage wasn't a success either. Anyway she was quite religious and conservative in outlook.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Mari on September 14, 2008, 06:33:00 AM
Infanta Paz with her husband Ludwig Ferdinand of Bavaria look a very loving couple. You don't see that many warm photo's between Husband and Wife of that era! Was the Marriage happy?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 14, 2008, 06:34:57 AM
Yes, they had a happy marriage. Gladly, must I say, because Paz was a sweet and charming girl who deserved a good domestic life...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 15, 2008, 12:26:13 PM
I heard that La Chata was beloved in Spain. Wonder why she was so popular ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 15, 2008, 12:32:46 PM
I heard that La Chata was beloved in Spain. Wonder why she was so popular ?

Yes, she was a beloved and respected infanta. But it´s a funny thing...Isabel liked so much to go out of the palaces in her carriage, she always was seen for the common people going to the "verbenas" (popular balls) and to the bullfights; so common people thought she was very close to them, when the true is she was the more proud of being a infanta and the more devoted to protocol into the spanish court.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 15, 2008, 12:48:08 PM
Indeed ! I heard she was crushed by the idea of revolution and very ill when she went on her last exile to Paris. Baby Bee stay behind to assist her departure. She died in Paris. Was she buried there ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 15, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
Indeed ! I heard she was crushed by the idea of revolution and very ill when she went on her last exile to Paris. Baby Bee stay behind to assist her departure. She died in Paris. Was she buried there ?

She was buried at the Père Lachaise...but now Isabel is buried in the chapel of the Real Sitio of La Granja, Segovia. If my memories are right, she was buried at La Granja since 1990...maybe 1991.
Isabel was so loved by people, and when the second republic was proclaimed, the government, knowing she was an old lady (almost eighty years old) very ill (she was a paralitic), invited her to stand in Spain. But Isabel was extremely loyal to the dinasty and the king -her nephew. She chose to depart to France. She was dead four days after the departure, in a very humble hotel. Her sister Eulalia (they had a not easy relationship during their lifetimes...ups and downs, more downs than ups I believe) and Baby Bee were with Isabel. Her personal secretary, Coello, and a lady-in-waiting, Margot Bertrán de Lis, were there too. Alfonso XIII was not by the side of his aunt...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 18, 2008, 03:03:09 PM
Was Francisco de Asis really gay ? Was the marriage even consummated ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 18, 2008, 03:53:49 PM
Yes, I´m sure he was really gay. I´ve read that his great love was his assistant, Antonio Ramos Meneses. But I can´t assure if the marriage was or was not consummated. I suppose the couple did consummate the marriage and maybe one or two of the children were fathered by the king, but not the future king Alfonso XII, neither Isabel "La Chata", Paz or Eulalia. I´ve doubts about Pilar, the infanta who was dead so young. I remember reading in a book that Francisco de Asis did believe Pilar was really his daughter, so he treated her with special sweetness...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 19, 2008, 01:21:08 PM
I think Pilar was a sweet girl as both Pilarof Bavaria (her niece according to her mother Paz)  and Eulalia spoke it it in their books.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on September 20, 2008, 07:26:26 AM


There's no proof about Francisco de Asís's homosexuality, although it is true that he was very close with Meneses, and in Paris they lived together. However, in Paris he also had a relationship with a female opera singer (sorry can't remember the name right now, I'll look it up afterwards...) with whom he exchanged very mmm... "hot" letters. So, at least, he was bisexual.

The failure in their marriage wasn't only due to Francisco de Asís, they weren't just fit for each other and neither of them had the character to face the facts and make the most of it. The marriage was indeed consumated and around 1847-1849 they had happy times. Two sons were born and died just after the birth in 1849 and 1850 and those were most probably Francisco's. About the rest, we can only conjecture, because no one can be sure unless a DNA test is made on their rests. So oficially, they still are Francisco's, as he acknowledged them. I wish those tests could be done!!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on September 20, 2008, 07:30:41 AM
About Gaetano being gay, I hadn't read anything about it before, but I know he was a depressed and sad man...

The marriage with Isabel was indeed consummated, as she had an early miscarriage in 1871.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on September 20, 2008, 07:34:17 AM
Hortensia Schenider was the name of the singer who had an affair with Francisco! Just remembered it!
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 20, 2008, 07:35:33 AM


There's no proof about Francisco de Asís's homosexuality, although it is true that he was very close with Meneses, and in Paris they lived together. However, in Paris he also had a relationship with a female opera singer (sorry can't remember the name right now, I'll look it up afterwards...) with whom he exchanged very mmm... "hot" letters. So, at least, he was bisexual.

The failure in their marriage wasn't only due to Francisco de Asís, they weren't just fit for each other and neither of them had the character to face the facts and make the most of it. The marriage was indeed consumated and around 1847-1849 they had happy times. Two sons were born and died just after the birth in 1849 and 1850 and those were most probably Francisco's. About the rest, we can only conjecture, because no one can be sure unless a DNA test is made on their rests. So oficially, they still are Francisco's, as he acknowledged them. I wish those tests could be done!!

You´re true, Umigon ;)
But I´m convinced about Francisco being "gay". Or maybe bisexual, but with a clear preference for the men. About the paternity...well, I´m pretty sure the marriage with Isabel was consummated and a few children of the queen were fathered by her cousin-husband. But another ones were not fathered by Francisco. Remember the words of Isabel to her son Alfonso: "All that you have from the Bourbon, you got it from me". And Paz was persuaded her father was Miguel Tenorio: in fact, she acknowledged her father and her father lived with her when he was an old man; the last will of Miguel named Paz to inherit all.  ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on September 20, 2008, 07:39:50 AM


I know, Yseult, and I agree with you. But... Isabel had many lovers and she wasn't always monogamous in her relationships, so maybe she wasn't that sure about who the fathers were.

The surviving children were supposedly fathered by:

- Isabel (José María Ruiz de Arana)

- Alfonso (Enrique Puigmoltó)

- Pilar (Francisco de Asís)

- Paz (Miguel Tenorio de Castilla)

- Eulalia (was it Miguel Tenorio as well? I can't remember)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on September 20, 2008, 07:48:52 AM
I have my doubts about Eulalia. It seems that she was convinced she has been fathered by a "handsome captain of the guard". And her nephew, Alfonso XIII, said to princess Alice of Albany that the father of Eulalia had been a captain of the palace´s guard. Eulalia had not a relationship with Miguel Tenorio and, in fact, Miguel Tenorio named as his only heiress infanta Paz...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 20, 2008, 03:11:00 PM
Well...In Spanish tradition, only the mother can be the sure parent. I read in America, a good number of children now didcover that their father wasn't their biological father and result of an affaire by their mother... :D
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on September 30, 2008, 04:41:09 PM
Hello everybody!

I read in Amadeo Martin Rey y Cabieses Wittelsbach y Borbon that king Francisco I of Spain (Duque de Cadiz), husband of Queen Isabel II wanted to transmit his title of Duque de Cadiz to his dear grandson Prinz Ferdinand von Bayern Fernando de Baviera) as well as his own house in Madrid. Fernando de Baviera's parents were Infanta Paz & Prinz Ludwig-Ferdinand von Bayern. Then Fernando married with Infanta Maria Teresa (his cousin)
I remember a nice picture too showing the young king Alfonso XIII with his mother Queen Regent Cristina & grandmother Queen Isabel II (at that time known as Duquesa de Toledo)

 Had the former royal couple strong ties with their spanish & german grandchildren ? Did they meet often ? Did they arragne their marriages?
What kind of grandparents were these two "special" monarchs?

Were they good parents before?

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 01, 2008, 03:50:18 AM
Between 1846 and 1868, Isabel II had got 12 lovers known and listed while her poor and ridiculous husband had got only a man in his life: don Antonio Ramos de Meneses, later duke of Baños...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 01, 2008, 04:44:17 AM
I must insist on Francisco's relationship with opera singer Hortensia Schneider in  Paris...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 01, 2008, 08:24:22 AM
I must insist on Francisco's relationship with opera singer Hortensia Schneider in  Paris...

I never heard that, but everything is possible...All the princes of Europe pressed in the dressing-room of Hortense Schneider at the Opera, not only the insignificant ex-little king consort of Spain. He did not weigh heavy compared with these V.I.P: grand duke Constantine, Prince of Wales, King of Portugal, King of Bavaria and Khédive d'Egypt who put her in his bed. Hortense was called "the passing-cross of the princes"...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 01, 2008, 10:54:38 AM
Hortense is a fascinating creature...
A picture of her?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Luc on October 01, 2008, 12:15:19 PM
Have a look at this portrait of her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hortense_Schneider
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 01, 2008, 12:59:46 PM
Gorgeous!
Francisco de Asis had a good taste...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 01, 2008, 01:48:54 PM
I guess he loved her voice, above all!

REMi
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 02, 2008, 04:08:26 PM


I know, Yseult, and I agree with you. But... Isabel had many lovers and she wasn't always monogamous in her relationships, so maybe she wasn't that sure about who the fathers were.

The surviving children were supposedly fathered by:

- Isabel (José María Ruiz de Arana)

- Alfonso (Enrique Puigmoltó)

- Pilar (Francisco de Asís)

- Paz (Miguel Tenorio de Castilla)

- Eulalia (was it Miguel Tenorio as well? I can't remember)


The great Spanish historian Ricardo de La Cierva y de Hoces attributes fathehood of Maria del Pilar upon Miguel Tenorio too.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 02, 2008, 04:50:40 PM
Isabel was warm and affectionate, and imperious at the same time. Francisco was cold and distant as a father, even towards Pilar, with whom he had a closer relationship.

As grandparents, Isabel lavished gifts on them, she was very warm and never got angry with them. Francisco, although he was affectionate to them, specially to Fernando of Bavaria and Luis of Orleans, his favourite grandchildren, he seldom saw any of them... he always was a distant figure in the family.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2008, 10:00:43 AM
Could be. More than one historian credits Isabel II having fully inheited the hot blood of the Bourbon-Naples (remember her mother Queen Maria Cristina ?) and those of her father (Ferdinand VII) and grandmother (Luisa of Parma). All were highly sexed...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 03, 2008, 10:25:06 AM
Do not forget her other grandmother, the infanta Maria Isabel, Queen of the Two Sicilies.She loved Love and also beating...All these princesses were sexually ill.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2008, 01:10:09 PM
Yes. Isabel II could hardly be blamed for the sins of her father and her mother's.  ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 04, 2008, 02:35:08 AM
What is the matter? Sins are not in question here but a very heavy heredity. I don't judge. I ascertain facts.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Vecchiolarry on October 04, 2008, 10:01:20 AM
Hi,

Just think if these people were all strait-laced and boring, we would have nothing to talk about on these various message boards.
The very fact that Henry VIII had six wives, who were all dispatched in numerable ways, makes him famous and the subject of "that mini-series"...  Nobody is much concerned with the historical mistakes and jumblings, but his romping in the boudoir(s) and those of the Duke of Sussex are what has 'most' everybody tuned in!!!

A mini-series on Isabella II could prove interesting - and not for her political input into Spain.....

Larry
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 04, 2008, 01:11:23 PM
You are absoluty right. The couple formed by Isabel II and Francisco de Assis is the most surprising of the nineteenth century. I think there is something shakespearian in their life. Their story sounds like that. A tragedy...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2008, 04:10:47 PM
Yes...They should do the Bourbons after the Tudors.... ;D
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 07, 2008, 01:17:47 PM
I would like to know if Queen Isabel had good relations with her half-brothers & sisters : Amparo, Milagros, Fernando, Cristina, Juan & Jose
Queen Cristina married an officer of the guard Agustin Munoz y Sanchez & had several children with him, somehow like her elder sister Carolina (Duchess of Berry),

Did the young queen herself decide to gave them titles?
who chose the husbands of her sisters Amparo, Milagros & Cristina
What were her plans for her younger brothers?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2008, 02:40:35 PM
I think Dowager Queen Maria Cristina (from Naples) of Spain would have made the decisions for her "other children".
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 07, 2008, 02:58:34 PM
Isabel had a distant although affectionate relationship with her half-siblings. She was the one to give them their titles and, for some time, she even investigated if there would be any possibility to name them "Infantes of Spain"!! Her government, of course, wouldn't hear about it.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 07, 2008, 02:59:04 PM
She investigated it on her mother and stepfather's behalf.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2008, 03:05:32 PM
But it would the mother who made the final decision. Just like she made Isabel II 's and her sister's marriage.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Norbert on October 08, 2008, 03:50:51 AM
I think it was European politics that made the marriages. Nobody wanted a French Prince as a king-consort or another Saxe-Coburg
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 08, 2008, 06:36:19 AM
thanks everybody !
Are there pictures of the Queen with her siblings? Or even her siblings one by one? Which one of them looks like her the most?
What were the queen dowager's plans for her sons?
I read that some ecuatorians wanted to place the duque de Tarancon  on their country throne? is it true? What about the condes de Recuerdo & Gracia ?
Had queen dowager good relations with her brothers & sisters like Duchess of Berry, King of Dos Sicilias, Empress of Brasil ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 08, 2008, 06:40:53 AM
thanks everybody
Are there pictures showing Queen Isabel or King Francisco with their grandchildren?
maybe for wedding ...Did they took part to these events ?
I read that the King owned the château d'Epinay in France & the palacio of Rofrio in Spain, was this last one for his holidays?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2008, 12:36:19 PM
To answer all those questions one would need a book about Queen Maria Cristina (Princess of Naples). I suspect that could led directly to her thread. As for Isabel II, her life is so turbulent that nobody cared about her half siblings or her reaction to them.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 08, 2008, 01:50:43 PM
 Yes you're right, it was too much in one question sorry !
the daughter had a crazy life like her mother !
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2008, 07:15:17 PM
I wonder if there is a good bio on Queen Dowager Maria Cristina (princess of Naples). Most books dealt only with her political life. I would love to know her relationship with both her royal daughters and yes even her non-royal ones too.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: umigon on October 09, 2008, 04:31:17 PM


She was a tender mother to her Muñoz children and Luisa Fernanda, but she was somewhat more cold and distant towards Isabel. The reasons as to why she conducted herself that way are unknown to me, but Isabel always seeked recognition and love from her mother. And Maria Cristina gave it, but in a more moderate way than she gave it to her other children. Their relationship grew closer through the years, particularly during the years of exile in France.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 10, 2008, 12:35:36 PM
I think it was because Isabel was queen and Maria Cristina view her as politics than family.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 11, 2008, 05:54:01 AM
wonderfull picture
The Infantas look so close to their mother. Isabel looks so tenderfull with them. It's lovely.
Are there any pictures showing Francisco with Alfonso? or Isabel with their son ?

Pilar was prettier than her younger sisters. Sadly she died too young. She would have probably made a appropriate wife for a crown prince. Where there plans to marry her ? with whom?
When I look at the sisters marriages, i see that they always marry with young princes who were living in Spain. Was ist a strategy of Isabel II to keep her daughters near her, like queen Victoria with daughters Helena, Louise & Beatrice?
If I am right, then Pilar would have probably married another prince living in Spain, or with one Bourbon mother. Maybe a son of Sebastian& Cristina ? or another son of King Ferdinando II ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 11, 2008, 10:59:39 AM
wonderfull picture
The Infantas look so close to their mother. Isabel looks so tenderfull with them. It's lovely.
Are there any pictures showing Francisco with Alfonso? or Isabel with their son ?

Pilar was prettier than her younger sisters. Sadly she died too young. She would have probably made a appropriate wife for a crown prince. Where there plans to marry her ? with whom?
When I look at the sisters marriages, i see that they always marry with young princes who were living in Spain. Was ist a strategy of Isabel II to keep her daughters near her, like queen Victoria with daughters Helena, Louise & Beatrice?
If I am right, then Pilar would have probably married another prince living in Spain, or with one Bourbon mother. Maybe a son of Sebastian& Cristina ? or another son of King Ferdinando II ?


Oh, no, tecklenburg...Isabel was not trying to keep her daughters near her as queen Victoria did. In fact, only the eldest daughter, Isabel, was living with her mother when she was married to Gaetano count Girgenti. The younger daughters, Paz and Eulalia, were married so much later, when they were living at the Royal Palace of Madrid, and their mother, Isabel, was living far away, at the Palace of Castilla in Paris. The marriages of the three infantas were not arranged with "young princes who were living in Spain". As far as I know, Gaetano count Girgenti was living in Vienna and he cames to Spain to marry Isabel. Ludwig Ferdinand, Paz´s husband, was born in Spain since her mother was a spanish infanta, but I was living in Bavaria and Paz moved from Madrid to Munich with her husband. Only Eulalia married a spanish prince, Antonio de Orleans.

As for Pilar, I´ve read Isabel II was talking with her friend empress Eugenie of France about a wedding between the Prince Imperial and Pilar.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2008, 01:14:29 PM
Indeed...Pilar could have made a splendid Empress of France. I heard that when he died in Zululand, she was heartbroken. But I thought so was Prioncess Beatrice. I agree Pilar seemed to be the beauty of the family.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 11, 2008, 05:03:24 PM
Yes, Eric, I´ve read the same thing about princess Beatrice. Maybe Eugenie had her doubts about the two girls. Eugenie was friend of the queen Isabel and of the queen Victoria; she was spanish, but after the fall of the Second Empire, she was living in England. The advantage of Pilar: she was a catholic roman princess. Beatrice was anglican.

When Isabel II and Francisco de Asis were to exile in France, Pilar, Paz an Eulalia were in their childhood. Napoleon III and Eugenie were a very supportive couple to the spanish royal family, they helped them to settle in France and they often appeared with gifts for the little infantas. Pilar, Paz and Eulalia were the most happiest children when emperor Napoleon gave them three beautiful dolls with a lot of dresses ;) Prince Alfonso has a friendship with the Prince Imperial, and the three girls knew so well the Prince Imperial. Pilar fell in love with him when she was too young. Of course, when he was dead, she felt devastated.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2008, 07:38:17 PM
A lost chance for France.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on October 12, 2008, 02:17:26 AM
Oh yes Eric !
it would have been so nice. Napoleon III, Eugenie, with Prince & Princess Imperial & grandchildren. I'm sure that Pilar would have followed his mother & given to her husband lots of children. What would have been their titles? Princes of France? The princess imperial would have charmed everyone in France.
but I can't imagine that Napoleon IV & Empress Maria del Pilar having a peacefull reign...Unfortunatelly,  it ends everytime with a revolution in France! Poor Loulou & Pilar, French could regret them.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 02:36:41 AM

. Pilar fell in love with him when she was too young. Of course, when he was dead, she felt devastated.

In 1870, when the Second Empire collapsed, Pilar was only...9 years. How can you say that a child of this age falls in love?
Prince imperial accompanied his parents in England. Pilar would never see him again.
He was killed by the Zulus on June 1st 1879. Pilar died on August 5, in Escoriaza, Basque Country in France. She was consumptive....Can we say that she died of love as "La Dame aux camélias"??

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 02:42:05 AM
A lost chance for France.

I wonder why...French people do not  want kings, queen,  princes and princesses anymore.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 12, 2008, 02:45:42 AM
No, Remi, I don´t think she was died of love as La Dame aux Camélias. I just said she was devastated when she was noticed Prince Imperial was dead. I know Pilar was very young when Second Empire collapsed, but a few good authors wrotte about Pilar keeping a childish infatuation about Prince Imperial, so she was so happy when Isabel II had a chat with Eugenie about a wedding between the prince and the infanta.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 12, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
A lost chance for France.

I wonder why...French people do not  want kings, queen,  princes and princesses anymore.

REMI


I agree with you at this point. The wedding or not wedding between Prince Imperial and Pilar was not an interesting issue for the most of the french people...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 02:51:06 AM
, French could regret them.


Do you believe that ? French people couldn't care less !

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 06:48:24 AM
Remember the words of Isabel to her son Alfonso: "All that you have from the Bourbon, you got it from me".

Dear Yseult, I am very interested in this Isabel II's statement . Would you mind telling me where I can find it?

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 12, 2008, 06:53:23 AM
No, Remi, I can´t... but if you give time, I´ll check the books. I think I read it in one of the many books I have read lately about the Spanish royals... I´ll check to give you more details about the words Isabel said to Alfonso...

I edit the post to add: not only in books, but also in magazines about history appears the famous words. The magazine "Quo" dedicated an article to the question and mentioned the words of Isabel to Alfonso: A un bizarro militar, el capitán Enrique Puig Moltó, se le atribuye la paternidad del que sería el rey Alfonso XII. Cuentan que la reina se sinceró así con su heredero: “Hijo mío, la única sangre Borbón que corre por tus venas es la mía”. (The translation would be "My son, the only Bourbon blood running through your veins is mine") But I´ll check the books too.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 12, 2008, 07:58:01 AM
Thanks, dear Yseult...This statement is very important...
About Pilar, a very pretty young princess: compare his pictures to those of his father Miguel Tenorio de Castilla... Likeness is very striking.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 12, 2008, 02:46:20 PM
Would love to more photos of this frail beauty, Infanta Pilar of Spain.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2008, 08:22:27 PM
I seldom saw photos of them with their grandchildren. I think I saw one of Isabella with Marie Christina and Alfonso XIII.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 16, 2008, 04:17:08 AM
thanks everybody
Are there pictures showing Queen Isabel or King Francisco with their grandchildren?
maybe for wedding ...Did they took part to these events ?
I read that the King owned the château d'Epinay in France & the palacio of Rofrio in Spain, was this last one for his holidays?

The Palace of Riofrio was not at the disposal of Francisco de Asis anymore after his departure to France in 1868.The king consort returned rarely to Spain. The Palace was then occupied by Alfonso XII.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2008, 11:34:03 AM
That is sad. Thanks for the info. The King Consort did not like Spain ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 16, 2008, 01:46:17 PM
In 1868, Francisco de Asis  was not  King anymore. Nothing would tie him to Spain where  he had suffered so many humiliations.
And also Alfonso XII was not his son....

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2008, 02:14:23 PM
According to the law he was. Did the two men never bonded ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 17, 2008, 04:13:14 AM
In 1870, Isabel II abdicated. She called in such a case: the Countess of Toledo...She was not Queen of Spain anymore. Neither did Francisco de Asis. Consequently...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2008, 02:46:18 PM
Thanks. But was Alfonso and Francisco close to each other ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2008, 02:47:04 PM
I mean by law Francisco was Alfonso's father...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 19, 2008, 11:11:13 AM
...But the law cannot create links of blood...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on October 19, 2008, 12:07:30 PM
Thanks. But was Alfonso and Francisco close to each other ?

However it seems clear that Francisco had not fathered Alfonso, they were linked by blood, please don´t forget this: Francisco and Alfonso were first cousins once removed. I think the two men got along very well. Alfonso was always respectful towards Francisco and Francisco did appreciate the kindness of his son by law...I remember I read somewhere that when Francisco received the news about Alfonso´s death, he was postrated by the pain and sorrow. Maybe umigon could add more information ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on October 19, 2008, 01:13:36 PM
I never said Francisco de Asis and King Alfonso XII were not linked by blood... I answerd  Eric Low who said that  Francisco de Asis was Alfonso's father by law. I added: yes, but not by the blood.
For the rest, I know...Francisco was not first cousin of his "son", but with his mother Isabel II..Their mothers Queen Maria Cristina et Infanta Luisa Carlota were sisters.  The Borbon blood comes from women. No importance in Spain (cf the law of Partidas) But in France, this is another story...There is no more Borbones stricto sensu in Spain, except Don Carlos de Borbon de Las dos Sicilias and his children.

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 08, 2008, 09:08:05 AM
Not royalty, but this handsome gentleman was the father of Eulalia, Paz and Pilar, Miguel Tenorio de Castilla

(http://i33.tinypic.com/2j3p7ps.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on November 08, 2008, 10:51:40 AM
Miguel Tenorio de Castilla died on 11 december 1916; at his daughter Paz's, in Nymphenburg Castle Bavaria.


REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on November 26, 2008, 02:26:46 AM
Hi everybody

I read some memoirs of Infanta Eulalia http://openlibrary.org/details/courtlifefromwit00eularich
It is wonderful to read her about her youth, her dear brother.
Eulalia is carefoul too. She never evocates her father's nor her mother's lovers.
She remembered tenderly her grandmother Queen dowager Cristina. She tells us about how she fell in love with Munoz y Sanchez (with a handkerchief :) according to her, but never write about their children
That's why I wanted to start a new topic about them

1. María de los Desamparados Muñoz y de Borbón, Condesa de Vista Alegre (1834 - 1864)
2. María de los Milagros Muñoz y de Borbón, Marquesa de Castillejo (1835 - 1903)
3. Agustín Muñoz y de Borbón, Duque de Tarancón (1837 - 1855)
4. Fernando Muñoz y de Borbón, Duque de Riánsares y Tarancón (1838 - 1910)
5. María Cristina Muñoz y de Borbón, Marquesa de Isabela (1840 - 1921)
6. Juan Muñoz y de Borbón, Conde del Recuerdo (1844 - 1863)
7. Antonio de Padua Muñoz y de Borbón (1842 - 1847)
8. José Muñoz y de Borbón, Conde de Gracia (1846 - 1863)

every daughter were well married but I'd like to have some infos about the four sons, pictures. Why Juan, Antonio & José died so young? What were their parents's plans for them ? Could they have entered spanish army or administration? What about Agustin and Fernando ?

Had Munoz y Borbon good relations with Isabel II during their lifetimes?

Were titles "Vista allegre", "Recuerdo", "Gracia" created by Isabel II to remember some qualities of her siblings?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Veronica on November 26, 2008, 12:49:23 PM
I found this about the eldest boy:

AGUSTIN MARIA MUÑOZ AND BOURBON. 
Born in Madrid on March 15 1837, and died on July 15 1855.  He was named Duke of Tarancon, Grande of Spain 1st Class, on November 19 of 1847, and in 1849, Viscount of Rostrollano.  Ddue to his young age he died without offspring.

 On this child, it is noteworthy that Gen. Juan José Flores, first president of the Republic of Ecuador, intended to set up a throne for him on Ecuador. Jorge Francisco Saenz Carbonell says that "Both the Queen Maria Cristina and the Duke of Riánsares received with great interest the proposal of Flores to erect a throne in Quito, especially as the skilful Venezuelan told them the possibility that the Ecuadorian hypothetical crown would go to one of their children, specifically to the nine year old Don Agustin Munoz and Bourbon.  Dona Maria Cristina and her husband, who already were convinced in the idea of a new dynasty, began to help Flores in secret to organize expeditionary forces, with the knowledge of the Minister of War.  Unfortunately for the designs of the Queen Mother and the Duke, the news was leaked, and in August 1846 a newspaper in Madrid, "El clamor publico", made the news of general knowledge. In Spain, there was a bitter controversy, and in many countries of Latin America there was a huge scandal. Plenipotentiary of Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador, New Granada and Peru came together to condemn the initiative.  In the end, the Spanish government had to say that they had no part in the plans  and Britain also got part into the matter. Flores had few ships in the estuary of the River Thames to board his soldiers but they were seized by the British authorities, and they also opened proceedings against Captain Richard Wright, who had been commissioned to organize the small square. At the end part of the Spanish Government had to resign and the prestige of Dona Maria Cristina was very damaged. "The reign of" Don Agustin I "and the dynasty Munoz finished before it started, and the child that was to be the King had to settle for the title of Duke of Tarancon, which was given to him by his half-sister Queen Isabel II in November 1847.  He died unmarried in Paris in 1855, at eighteen years old, and the adventure was only an illusion.


And about the younger ones:

 FERNANDO DE BOURBON AND MUÑOZ, born in Madrid on April 27 1838, and died on Dec. 7 1910. He was named first in 1848, I Count of Casa Muñoz, then in 1849, I Viscount of Arboleda, and after the death of his brother, II DUKE OF RIÁNSARES AND II DUKE OF TARANCÓN. He was married on September 11, 1861, in Oviedo, with Eladia Bernalda of Quiros and Gonzalez de Cienfuegos. They had eleven children.

 JUAN BAUTISTA MARIA MUÑOZ AND BOURBON, born in Paris on August 29 1844, and died on April 2 1863, in Pisa.  He was appointed Count of Recuerdo, 29 February 1848, and in 1849, the Viscount of Villarrubia I and II DUKE OF Montmorot. He had no offspring.

 ANTONIO DE PADUA MUÑOZ AND BOURBON, born in Paris on December 23 1842, and died in Madrid in 1847.

 JOSE MARIA MUÑOZ AND BOURBON, born in Paris on December 21 1846, and died in Pau, on Dec. 7 1863. . He was named Count of Gracia, 29 February 1848, and I Count of Arboleda. He had no offspring.



 
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on November 26, 2008, 12:57:05 PM
Oh, my God...I can´t imagine the boy of the Riansares couple as KING of Ecuador!!

Thank you, Veronica, for the info. Not sure, but I believe the daughter who is photographed with her parents is María Amparo, countess of Vista Alegre, who was married to polish prince Wladyslaw Czartoryski. After the death of María Amparo, Czartoryski married Marguerite d´Orleáns.



Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: tecklenburg on November 26, 2008, 01:40:15 PM
Thanks to you for these infos !

I imagine them well as king, queen, crown prince, princesses of ecuador...Moreover she was Empress Teresa Cristina's sister...so it was a good choice.
Cristina & Munoz managed to marry well their daughters. They might be proud of them.
Isabel was generous with her siblings. Had she a favorite sister or brother with whom she had more in common ? what kind of "elder sister" were Isabel & Luisa ?
What were Munoz plans for his son's future ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 27, 2008, 04:49:07 AM
Isabel II and Francisco de Asis.

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2ahytxu.jpg)

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2008, 09:24:13 AM
They seemed very relaxed in this picture...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: REMI on November 27, 2008, 09:47:24 AM
They seemed very relaxed in this picture...

After the fall of the monarchy, Isabel et Francisco became ...old friends.She lived at Castilla Palace in Paris. He lived in Epinay Castle, near Paris.From time to time, the most strange couple of the Gotha met each other .They laughed at their little personal war. They hate themselves no more...

REMI
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 27, 2008, 02:18:50 PM
Can you tell me of the lives of the daughters ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on November 27, 2008, 02:55:23 PM
As far as I know, Amparo was a fragile creature; maybe she was always sickly, and, in fact, she was dead from a tuberculosis when her only son was aged six...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2008, 08:57:29 AM
Did her only son survive ?
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Yseult on November 28, 2008, 12:54:06 PM
Did her only son survive ?

Oh, yes, Eric, but her mother passed on him the tuberculosis. He was a sickly boy. Now I think he´s beatified...this mean, he´s "almost"  a catholic saint... ;)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Veronica on November 28, 2008, 02:00:38 PM
Yseult, you are right, Amparo's son was declared venerable, what means he is in the way to being a saint.

From the site of the city of Tarancon, where the duke of Riansares was born:


"MARIA DE LOS DESAMPARADOS (AMPARO) MUÑOZ AND BOURBON
 
Born in Madrid on November 17, 1834 and deceased on August 19, 1864, from tuberculosis.  She was appointed Countess of VISTA ALEGRE, on Aug. 9, 1847, and later Princess Czartoryski. She married on March 1, 1855, at Malmaison (Paris), with the Polish prince Wladislaw Czartoryski (born in Warsaw, on July 3, 1828, and died in Boulogne-sur-Seine, on June 23, 1894), 11th Prince of Czartoryski since 1829. Maria de los Desamparados and Wladislaw had a son:
   Francis Augusto Czartoryski y Muñoz,  DUKE OF VISTA ALEGRE, born in Paris on August 2, 1858, and died on April 8, 1893, in Alassio. He was declared venerable on January 1, 1979 by John Paul II, becoming one of the saints of the family. Czartoryski lived a rather unusual life for a prince. The glamour of the royal court didn't appeal to him at all. Instead, daily Mass, frequent confession and caring for the poor were more important. After meeting Don Bosco (another saint),  on October 2, 1888, the Prince Augusto Francisco did vows of poverty, chastity and obedience, and became Salesian.  Four months earlier he had signed the act of renouncing all of his rights of primogeniture. Augusto Francisco was ordained priest on April 2, 1892. He celebrated his first Mass for his family on May 3, a Polish national holiday.  But the illness that led his mother to the tomb, turned inexorably towards him. Death came the night of April 8, 1893.  He was thirty-five years old. 
   His father, Wladislaw married, following the death of Maria de los Desamparados, to Marguerite, Princess of Orleans, on Jan. 15, 1872, in Chantilly.  With the latter he had two sons."

I found that he was beatified on April 25, 2004 by John Paul II. His body is venerated in Przemysl (Poland).
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 08, 2008, 10:32:49 AM
Isabel II and Francisco de Asis.

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2ahytxu.jpg)




From the same session...the whole family ;-)
(http://i37.tinypic.com/2myy9x.jpg)

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 09, 2008, 04:21:00 PM
Isabel II

(http://i36.tinypic.com/2h6vu5w.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 10, 2008, 07:08:05 AM
A proud Isabel II with her son, Alfonsito


(http://i33.tinypic.com/v7az3m.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 28, 2009, 05:45:10 PM
The boy in the picture  is defo Alfonso XII. On ebay ,this cdv in PCDF`s store is on sale right now

(http://i42.tinypic.com/2wmqe7q.jpg)

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 28, 2009, 06:52:46 PM
He was a handsome child.
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Veronica on March 01, 2009, 04:31:15 PM
And a handsome adult, IMO
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2009, 04:52:07 PM
And yet...Died too young. It was tragic that after Mercedes passed away, his heart died with her...
Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Jose II on March 03, 2009, 12:36:29 PM
What do you mean "his heart died with her" ?

No doubt the two were very much in love but soon his heart flew to Elena Sanz

http://www.geneall.net/H/per_page.php?id=6073

Title: Re: Queen Isabel (Isabella) II of Spain and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2009, 03:00:53 PM
I don't think so. Infanta Eulalie wrote that when his sister-in-law died, she took his love with him. He may found solace with otherwomen, but it was never that pure love with his wife. He went on to have another wife and mistresses, but never again the bliss he had with his beloved cousin Mecedes.