Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: investigator on February 07, 2004, 07:32:44 AM

Title: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: investigator on February 07, 2004, 07:32:44 AM
This thread is going to combine all of those threads about people who actually knew the Imperial Family and Grand Duchess Anastasia, but who also met or refused to meet Anna Anderson.      Edited by Alixz 05/27/09

In the tv-movie on Anastasia: the Mystery of Anna it was shown that the dowager empress had expressed her desire to meet Anna Anderson but she died the next day.  Is this a true historical event?  Did the dowager empress make such a request?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Chris Snyder on February 07, 2004, 08:36:15 AM
From all accounts, the Dowager was vehemently opposed to the notion that Anna Anderson was her granddaughter. She even bitterly opposed her daughter Olga from making her  famous visit in the early 20's to see Anna. No one in her household was even permitted to discuss it.  I think it was because she still wanted to believe her family was still alive, and if Anna was Anastasia, that meant her son and the rest of the family was dead.    I highly doubt she would have changed such a rigid stance, but maybe she was feeling guilty or remorseful at the end of her life?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 08, 2004, 02:50:05 PM
There is not a shread of evidence that Maria Feodorovna ever expressed any interest in meeting Anna Anderson. This type of dramaic license might be acceptable if it were many centuries after everyone who ever knew them was dead.
That's not the case here, and these lies (for that is what they are) are still hurtful to those who knew the principals, Still, today, for whatever it may matter to anyone.

MF's opinion of what had happened to her sons and Nicholas' family is the source of much conjecture. My opinion only - she knew they were all dead but pretended otherwise as the last surviving Russian Empress and to encourage the monarchists. But I have no more way of proving this.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: NAAOTMA on February 08, 2004, 08:40:42 PM
Another thought on the subject: if the Dowager Empress had acknowledged that the Tsar and his wife and his children were dead, there would have been huge pressure put on her to voice an opinion at the very least as to which family member should be the next Tsar. Her refusal to acknowledge the death of Nicholas and his family spared her the succession squabbles and all of the grief that would be caused by those Romanov family squabbles. So in a way it is a clever way to handle something very very painful and difficult. It also left the path open for the monarchists to hope for a restoration of the monarchy by not giving any closure to the subject as mentioned in the above post. So her manner of handling it works on more than one level.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Nick Nicholson on February 11, 2004, 01:53:46 PM
I almost hate to jump into this discussion, but I feel obliged to point out that Maria Feodorovna's opinions on who "should" succeed Nicholas are irrelevant.  The Pre-Revolutionary Russian law of succession was (and is) extremely clear.  Given the death of Nicholas II, and his two brothers George (before the Revolution) and Michael (in the Revolution), it was clear that the throne passed through Nicholas' closest Uncle (Vladimir) to his son Kirill.

I know Kirill betrayed Nicholas by his "pledge" to the provisional government, but that did not affect the laws of succession codified by Paul I.

I think Maria's silence had more to do with the simple reason of grief more than anything else.

Nick
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: investigator on February 15, 2004, 07:48:17 AM
True.  But i still believe that the dowager empress  hoped that one of them had survived.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 18, 2004, 06:03:06 PM
I think that the Dowager Empress was probably aware all along that none of the family members survived the July 17th 1918 massacre, but as long as she didn't have to face facts or see the bodies, she was able to pretend that they were still alive somewhere. So much confusion about the family's fate during that time contributed to this view. According to all historical documentation, Maria Feodorovna was against ever meeting Anna Anderson, who wasn't the first nor the last pretender to be her granddaughter Anastasia. There were many Anastasias, Tatianas, Olgas, Marias and Alexeis out there, long after the reported murders of the Imperial family. As far as MF was concerned, Anna Anderson was just another one of them....
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2004, 09:24:14 PM
Was there any big name Romanov or close friend who supported her claim? Some of her biggest foes were Gilliard and Yussupov, who always testified against her, and she had even been denounced by Sophie Buxhoevedon. GD Olga sadly dismissed her, did Xenia ever meet her or have comment?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on July 13, 2004, 09:38:47 PM
There was in fact the very close friend of the Empress, Lily Dehn, who said she was Anastasia. She was completely convinced on this matter. This fact is really quite intriguing for me.

Lily was so close to the girls, so how could she mistake a Polish peasant for the girl she knew so well???

As for the Romanovs, Grand Duke Andrey Vladimirovich also supported her claim.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2004, 09:42:18 PM
Thanks, I didn't know about either of them! I am surprised at Lili too, she knew the girls so well.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on July 14, 2004, 08:58:32 AM
Also Princess Xenia Georgievna-daughter of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich and his wife Marie.

The only member of the Romanov Family and said she wasn't Anastasia (and that after a tortured and confused set of correspondence that seemed to hint that OA was never really sure one way or the other) who ever met her was Olga Alexandrovna (not counting Felix).

Alix's sister Irene met her and said she wasn't Anastasia, though she later gave conflicting accounts, and her son Sigismund DID recognize her.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2004, 09:26:39 AM
Thanks, I always wondered who that Xenia was and how she was tied to the family. I didn't know about Irene and her son either, very interesting!

Wasn't there was some kind of accusation that Felix was about to change his story in the early 60's and support Anna's claim for a share of the money, a charge Felix later denied? He seemed so vehemently against her from the moment they first met, I'd hate to think he'd switch sides in some kind of bribe. I guess because I like Felix I want to think of him as having more honor than that. What is the true story?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Olga on July 22, 2004, 09:57:32 AM
Annie, this is a good site for the geneaology of the Romanovs and the royal houses they are related to, etc. It's very useful.  :)

http://members.surfeu.fi/thaapanen/
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2004, 08:57:32 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2004, 06:52:53 PM
I have read that when Felix Yussoupov met Anna Anderson in Germany in 1927, he pronounced her a 'frightful playactress' and that she could not possibly be Anastasia. He also said he asked her questions in 4 languages and she only answered in German. He testified against her in the court cases.

But I also see stories that she claimed Felix tried to kill her, that he rushed at her with outstretched arms and reaching hands yelling how he killed Rasputin and he'd kill her too, for what her mother did to his country! She claimed she ran from him and lost herself in the crowd downstairs.

If there were any truth to this why was Felix not arrested? Is it possible she made it up for some reason?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alice on August 29, 2004, 02:24:53 AM
I think it's highly probable that she made it up. There is absolutely no evidence of this, except AA's testimony.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on August 29, 2004, 04:19:53 AM
Actually there is more than her word on this-see my biography of Felix for further details-witnesses recalled her fleeing in terror from him when left alone, and he himself was acting.  Before simply dismissing it as something she made up, it's best to look into the issue.  I suspect the truth lies somewhere between AA's claim and Felix's denial-she always tended to exaggerate things to the worst effect, while Felix never abandoned his tendency to lie to suit his own ends.  He probably said something to her that she took as a threat-and that would be entirely in character for both of them.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2004, 08:45:58 AM
Thank you, Greg, your book was one of the ones I read the account in. You told both sides, and I believe Kurth did too, but unless I'm missing something Lovell only told Anna's version.

As his biographer, don't you think this action would be out of character for Felix? It seems to be from what I've read in your book, Lost Splendor, and even Maria Rasputin's book. He was never one to get vicious and attack anybody. Even in the murder of Rasputin he was scared, layed back, and even ended up fainting. I don't doubt at all she ran out of the room for some reason but it might not have been exactly the way she told it. But as you say, we probably can't totally believe him either.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: JM on August 29, 2004, 10:25:10 AM
I think that that whole situation was absolutely charming. They were both such eccentric people!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on August 30, 2004, 06:18:50 AM
Quote
Thank you, Greg, your book was one of the ones I read the account in. You told both sides, and I believe Kurth did too, but unless I'm missing something Lovell only told Anna's version.

As his biographer, don't you think this action would be out of character for Felix? It seems to be from what I've read in your book, Lost Splendor, and even Maria Rasputin's book. He was never one to get vicious and attack anybody. Even in the murder of Rasputin he was scared, layed back, and even ended up fainting. I don't doubt at all she ran out of the room for some reason but it might not have been exactly the way she told it. But as you say, we probably can't totally believe him either.


Annie-I have no idea whether Felix did or did not do something along these lines-as I wrote here and in my book-I think the truth lies somewhere between the two versions.  But, no, such action would not have been out of character for Felix-in reality he was clever, charming, and deadly-and many episodes in his life show that he willingly attacked people (not physically) with a viciousness that is absent from his own memoirs.  You have only to explore his role in egging on his brother Nicholas's liaison with Marina Heyden and pushing them toward disaster to realize how dark a person he really was.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: JM on September 01, 2004, 05:21:53 PM
No way! It had to have been that crazy Felix; up to his old tricks again.  :D
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 01, 2004, 05:55:05 PM
Dude! She mad! she many times run on a rooftop naked, i heard this with my own ears [it was on the History on damend] .

JM do you really think Anna is the Grand Duchess?

Plus Felix didn't get close to her. He didn't try to kill her. even i well not get to close to an insane woman.

In the early 1920;s she tried to kill herself! if anyone trys to her , it would have be herself.

[if anyone get upest from reading my message,.. 'sorry' but thats what i think]
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Janet_W. on September 01, 2004, 05:58:22 PM
In their prime I think both would have been formidable.

Perhaps a case of "chose yer poison"?!   ;)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Michelle on September 01, 2004, 06:05:28 PM
I always found it VERY strange that Anna ran on top of her roof naked :o--does anyone know why? :P ::)  I know, it's probably a really dumb question. ::)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: JM on September 01, 2004, 06:13:25 PM
Quote
JM do you really think Anna is the Grand Duchess?


At one time I thought it was possible -- but not plausible. As of right now; I don't really know where I stand. I don't think of AA as Anastasia, but I also don't think of her as FS. I'm just going to keep an open mind! But I don't have any serious reservations about the DNA.

I do get mad when people belittle AA and her case however.  >:(

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2004, 06:27:32 PM
Gee, I have called upon to help calm down "eccentric" ladies [and not a few gentlemen] running around naked in the streets, perhaps the roof is not so different?
[well, this is San Francisco, after all!]
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: JM on September 01, 2004, 06:30:31 PM
Eccentric people are hot.  8)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2004, 06:50:11 PM
JM- "eccentric", naked little old ladies are far from "hot".
 Far from a pretty sight.  [the same with little old gentlemen, except maybe to the little old ladies?] Somehow, I doubt that was what was on AA's mind however.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: JM on September 01, 2004, 07:03:31 PM
Ah, you misunderstood me. I meant "hot" the same way as I would mean "cool." For some reason, saying "hot" instead of "cool" is what I do now. I wasn't using it to describe the attractiveness of eccentric people.

Eccentric old people are just awesome. I'm sorry, but there is something funny about an older person that has gone a little wack. Maybe that is why I like AA so much. :-/
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2004, 07:10:53 PM
I see your point. I rather like them as well. They can be a "hoot".
But I never had an affinity for AA. Nor a dislike, just never interested in her one way or another.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on September 01, 2004, 09:33:17 PM
Quote
Dude! She mad! she many times run on a rooftop naked, i heard this with my own ears [it was on the History on damend] .

JM do you really think Anna is the Grand Duchess?

Plus Felix didn't get close to her. He didn't try to kill her. even i well not get to close to an insane woman.

In the early 1920;s she tried to kill herself! if anyone trys to her , it would have be herself.

[if anyone get upest from reading my message,.. 'sorry' but thats what i think]


With respect, see my above post-she didn't just "make this up"-witnesses to what happened refer to an agitated Felix bellowing something unintelligible at AA running screaming; both were prone to exaggerations, but clearly some incident took place.

I wonder where you get the idea that AA was insane?  Every psychiatrist and expert who examined her in the 1920s clearly found that she was NOT insane-this is simply a myth.

I am quite curious about your statement that she was running about naked on some roof.  Where was this, and when?  I daresay I know a fair amount about her case and this is certainly news to me.  And, as an aside-having frequently been on any number of shows on the History Channel-believe me, television programs and their contents are not, by virtue of simply being televised, true.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Janet_W. on September 01, 2004, 10:06:57 PM
As someone who has seen her father, an Alzheimer's patient, die by inches--exhibiting the eccentric behavior that some people find either "hot" or a "hoot"--I can tell you that it is not at all amusing for those who love them.

In recent years I also have seen other folks--friends of my parents, and friends of my own--"go wack," and it is not funny.

I certainly have admired older people who, by a combination of good health habits, fortunate genetics, and the luck of the draw, exhibit very much the same vim, vigor and sass they possessed in their youth. I know a number of these people personally, and I admired another such person from afar for many years. But anyone who read last year's book about Katharine Hepburn, written by her friend A. Scott Berg, knows that even Ms. Hepburn's final years were spent in confusion and sometimes fear, knowing that those who were younger and "in charge" (i.e., doctors) could take her life and turn it inside out if they perceived her incompetent.  

Bette Davis used to say that "old age ain't for sissies," and indeed it is not. Loosing control of one's body is bad enough, but when the mind begins to malfunction and turn the person into a charicature of what he or she once was, the rest of us need to be there to comfort, reassure, and protect, much as we do for small children.

Whatever Anna Anderson was or was not in her twenties, thirties and forties, in her old age she was a beleagured individual who needed gentle, nonjudgmental treatment. Finding amusement in a younger person's trauma and/or mental illness and then an older person's senility is, to say the very least, unkind.

And incidentally, it also may be bad karma. To quote a truism, "what comes around goes around."  Or to quote another famous statement, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Michelle on September 01, 2004, 10:21:13 PM
Oh, I don't think Robert and JM meant that they enjoy the sufferings of old people when they're clearly having problems.  Probably what they meant (although I'm sure they can speak for themselves ;)) is that eccentric senior citizens are very interesting people.  Not necessarily those who are severely ill as in Alzheimer's and other conditions, but old folks who have their own interesting way of thinking and seeing the world.  I'm pretty sure they weren't expressing any sadism.  :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 01, 2004, 11:27:08 PM
I didn't made up 'AA running on a roof' i have heard it many times [ i didn't know the channel it was on] but now it on the movie  Anastasia [the old one with Ingrid B] there's a bio on Anastasia [on dvd] .

I'M NOT KIDDING!!!!! IT TRUE!

AA did try to kill herself and i don't believe Felix try to kill AA...

What i heard is what heard!  I will NEVER lie about those things,............

 End of story!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: KayTanaka on September 02, 2004, 03:03:52 AM
Dear Janet W,

Ditto. Thank you for your kind and astute post.  As usual, right to the point. Many Blessings, Kay.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on September 02, 2004, 04:29:59 AM
Quote
I didn't made up 'AA runing on a roof' i hae heared it many times [ i didn't know the chaniel it was on] but now it on the movie  Anastasia [the old one with Ingird B] theres a bio on Anastasia [on dvd] .

I'M NOT KIDDING!!!!! IT TRUE!

plus now I'M upest!  >:( [ I rarly get upest!] No sorries,.etc,....but ' AA did try to kill herself and i don't believe Felix try to kill AA...

What i heard is what heard!  I will NEVER lie about those things,............

 End of story!


As I wrote you in a private message, I never suggested you made this up or lied-I merely said I have never heard it, and added that simply because it appears on TV does not mean it is true.  I have no doubt you heard it-but it is most definitely NOT true.  I suspect what you heard was some variation (since I don't know how it was related or by whom, I can only assume that it was garbled) of an incident that took place while AA was staying with Annie Burr Jennings in New York; there was a fight (too long to discuss here) and Miss Jennings called an asylum and paid them a sum of money to come and collect AA; seeing the men coming for her, AA fled out of her bedroom window onto the roof.  This incident took place only once, it did not happen "many times," nor was AA naked.  That is the truth behind what you presumably heard-and again-it underlines my point-because something is on TV does not make it true.  The History Channel obviously got their version very wrong, which is unfortunate since it is something anyone could have checked by simply looking in Peter Kurth's book.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2004, 08:05:22 AM
Please, I was not making fun or light of any one's state of health.  I have been called to aid in calming down "upset" older people several times in the past. Including older people running around naked in the streets.
I have always enjoyed working with older folks, one can learn so much about a lot of things, no matter what state their mental health may be in. And the sense of humor !! Hidden gems  one can glean, just from patience and listening.
 I have nothing but respect for those folks, and they do NOT want pity or condescending "baby sitting". That is really disgusting, talking to them like they were still in diapers, even if they are, for various reasons
JM has demonstrated his own respect as well, he is very astute about old folks, his language may be different, after all, he is much younger than most of us !!
So do not be in such a rush to judge.
Now, I have never heard of  AA running around naked on a roof either. I think Greg's explanation is probably correct.  I have the standard books on the subject, but have never really explored  AA any further than those. It certainly was not mentioned in them. Even the book with all the sensational claims- Lovell was it ?- did not come up with any such scene as I recall.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Michelle on September 02, 2004, 02:43:07 PM
I have that very same DVD of the 1956 film with Ingrid Bergman as Anastasia with the bio of the grand duchess on it, and I heard it on there too.  I'm not doubting what Greg said by any means.  But for some reason I thought I also read it in Peter Kurth's The Riddle of Anna Anderson. ??? :-/  But from what Greg said, the rumor is most likely not true.  :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Janet_W. on September 02, 2004, 03:18:09 PM
The anecdote about Anna Anderson on the roof was mentioned on the A & E Biography of Anastasia. It may have been mentioned elsewhere as well.

I realize that my post may have come across as far too serious. But lately I've been taking special notice of the behaviors of both young people and old people, and guess what . . . they aren't that much different!  Youthful eccentricities, however, are generally overlooked--after all, you're just "making a statement"-- whereas the eccentricities of old age are often held up to ridicule.

I think a lot of this has to do with fear. None of us want to become limited, either mentally or physically, so we make a joke out of old age issues.  Also, we all are--to a certain extent--in denial. "It's not going to happen to me," was what my mom used to say. Well, guess what.  :o

Yes, of course, viewing people as their age happens all the time. I was a teacher, and boy oh boy, is there lots of stereotypical thinking out there about how fourth graders behave this way, second graders behave that way, etc.  And there is some reality to that approach, because the various stages of mental and physical development are tied to the aging process, whether we're talking about a toddler, someone in their forties, or a so-called "senior citizen."

Most of us would agree, however, that each of us are the sum total of an infiinte number of things. Not just our age, but our genetics, gender, parenting, environment, early childhood experiences, culture, religion, philosophy, education, sexuality--and many many other factors.

When I see photos and film footage of Anna Anderson, my first thought is not so much whether she was Anastasia, but a concern for how she was managing at that particular time in her life, and how she was being treated. Her long life,  lived very much in limbo, also reminds me of how so many people are displaced during revolution, war, etc.  Aside from the obvious destruction and unavoidable statistics re: those wounded and killed, war brings about a profound geographical and mental dislocation for countless civilians . . . and this dislocation, which often sets the stage for mental illness, reverberates for decades and generations to come.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: BattleAngel on September 03, 2004, 09:24:26 PM
Well said Janet_W.
A culture that practically deifies anyone in the 14-35 age range and virtually ignores the existance and gifts/talents of older adults doesn't help with cross-generational appreciation either.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on September 05, 2004, 11:24:06 AM
I'm having a hard time seeing Felix as a vicious killer. I haven't read the "Marina" letters yet, but everything else makes him seem so non violent. Even though he killed Rasputin, the people who knew him didn't look at him that way. From the diary of Maurice Paleologue days after the murder:

Judging by the little I know, it is the presence of Purishkevitch which gives the drama its real meaning and high political interest. The Grand Duke Dimitri is a young man about town of twenty-five, active, a fervent patriot and capable of courage in the hour of battle, but flighty and impulsive; it seems to me he plunged blindly into this adventure. Prince Felix Yussupov is twenty-nine and gifted with quick wits and æsthetic tastes; but his dilettantism is rather too prone to perverse imaginings and literary representations of vice and death, so I am afraid that he has regarded the murder of Rasputin mainly as a scenario worthy of his favourite author, Oscar Wilde. In any case his instincts., countenance and manner make. him much closer akin to the hero of Dorian Grey than to Brutus or Lorenzaccio.

Letter from Ella to Nicholas soon after the murder:

Arrived here to the news that Felix killed him, my little Felix I knew as a child, who all his life feared to kill, who did not wish to become military as to never have the occasion to shed blood- and I image what he must have gone through to do this, and how moved by patriotism he decided to save his sovereign and country from what we were all suffering. I telegraphed Dmitri not knowing where the boy was-but got no answer, since then it is in kind of silence....crime remains crime, but this one being of a special kind, can be counted as a duel and it is considered a patriotic act and for these deeds the law I think needs altering...

They don't seem to see him as violent, and they knew him. I also can't imagine him causing any kind of scene with so many people downstairs. He might have said something rude to her like 'frightful playactress' but I can't see him charging her threatening bodily harm.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on September 05, 2004, 05:14:55 PM
Quote
I'm having a hard time seeing Felix as a vicious killer. I haven't read the "Marina" letters yet, but everything else makes him seem so non violent. Even though he killed Rasputin, the people who knew him didn't look at him that way.... He might have said something rude to her like 'frightful playactress' but I can't see him charging her threatening bodily harm.


Nicholas and Alexandra certainly looked at him in THIS way!  Felix not only plotted, but cold-bloodedly befriended, lured, and then murdered, Rasputin-which says more about his ability to be violent, cold, and calculating than anything else.  And in the situation with Nicholas and Marina, he acted in such a reckless manner, egging on the situation, that I can't believe there wasn't a part of him that was thrilled with the adventure and dance with dance.

Having coldly murdered someone once, I don't see it as quite the stretch you do to think he might well have brought this up to AA-something along the lines of, "I've acted once before to save the honor of the Romanovs..." and such a thing would be quite in character, and could easily have been taken as a threat by her.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 05, 2004, 05:51:07 PM
Greg, I have no doubt that you are correct in your assesment of the man [Felix Y.]. I think I told you that some time ago I met a couple of gentlemen that actually knew him, in later years. [you might have even met them in research for your book, if they were still alive.]  They loved telling Felix stories, now that he was dead ! It seems that they had heard the Rasputin bit so many times they were a bit sick of it. Also, he never failed to remind people that he won the famous MGM lawsuit !! Lest they get any new ideas about him I guess.
My impression, from them, that although they were genuinely fond of the guy, they also maintained that he could be nasty & coniving until the last.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on September 05, 2004, 06:50:16 PM
Oh yes, N & A saw him as a 'monster' for killing their beloved 'friend.' In Nicholas's diary he recorded the day of the funeral for 'unforgettable Gregory' 'killed by monsters at the home of F. Yussoupov' The word monster gets translated to different things in different accounts but the meaning is there. I don't know if N felt as strongly about this as A, who wanted Felix and Dmitri shot dead.

She saw him as a saint, while others, even the religious Ella, saw him as a devil, which makes the story so interesting and one more thing we'll never know the truth on.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Karentje on September 23, 2004, 08:09:02 AM
Hi everyone

I'm certainly no expert on Romanov affairs, and I have only read a couple of books about them, but in defence of Felix I'd just like to mention that according to Edvard Radzinsky (Russian historian) Rasputin's actual murderer - the man who pulled the trigger - was Dmitri, and not Felix.
Radzinsky had acces to a lot of new files and information and his biography of Rasputin is a very recent one.
I believe that Felix,however unpleasant a person he may have been at times, was no cold-blooded murderer and, consequently, I find it hard to believe he tried to kill AA.

Karen
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on September 23, 2004, 08:15:33 AM
Quote
Hi everyone

I'm certainly no expert on Romanov affairs, and I have only read a couple of books about them, but in defence of Felix I'd just like to mention that according to Edvard Radzinsky (Russian historian) Rasputin's actual murderer - the man who pulled the trigger - was Dmitri, and not Felix.
Radzinsky had acces to a lot of new files and information and his biography of Rasputin is a very recent one.
I believe that Felix,however unpleasant a person he may have been at times, was no cold-blooded murderer and, consequently, I find it hard to believe he tried to kill AA.

Karen


Welcome and thanks for posting! Please join us in the Yussoupov forum on this message board in the thread "Felix and Rasputin" where we are discussing just this!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: rskkiya on September 23, 2004, 08:26:33 AM
   Regarding AA and Felix I am persuated that this story about an attempted attack after her "resurrection" was just that-- a story...Not only is it melodramatic and rather corny, it makes no sense...why would poor Felix- who had such a difficult time planning the execution of a man he hated Rasputin -  then try to kill a woman claiming to be someone that he would have cared about (Anastasia)?

No - sorry- an attempt ...but no prizes for originality or accuracy! Its just too bad that Anastasia means "She will rise again"  

R.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Evanescence on October 12, 2004, 12:22:11 PM
Quote
Dude! She mad! she many times run on a rooftop naked, i heard this with my own ears [it was on the History on damend] .

JM do you really think Anna is the Grand Duchess?

Plus Felix didn't get close to her. He didn't try to kill her. even i well not get to close to an insane woman.

In the early 1920;s she tried to kill herself! if anyone trys to her , it would have be herself.

[if anyone get upest from reading my message,.. 'sorry' but thats what i think]


If you saw you're whole family's murder wouldn't you go a bit insane at least? This is also common behavior for people who have suffered a brain trauma. I read that on an website...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Michelle on October 13, 2004, 10:17:37 AM
Very true, Evanescence.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 19, 2004, 04:51:46 PM
People also tend to go a bit insane after being injured in grenade explosions in munitions factories and losing their man in the war (like Franziska did)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 19, 2004, 06:02:48 PM
Sure runs contrary to everything I've ever heard. Why the different info now? Even if there is no record it doesn't mean it didn't happen. In the time of war so many people were hurt and helped anonymously, records were destroyed by bombing and fires, or lost. Wasn't this factory accident what led to her downhill mental health which landed her in the asylum in which she started pretending to be Tatiana and then switched to Anastasia?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on October 19, 2004, 07:31:19 PM
Quote
Sure runs contrary to everything I've ever heard. Why the different info now? Even if there is no record it doesn't mean it didn't happen. In the time of war so many people were hurt and helped anonymously, records were destroyed by bombing and fires, or lost. Wasn't this factory accident what led to her downhill mental health which landed her in the asylum in which she started pretending to be Tatiana and then switched to Anastasia?


Annie, just because it's new doesn't mean it isn't correct.  Penny and myself had the extreme good fortune to be allowed to see FS's complete medical files from 1915-16-1920, which no one had ever viewed before.  And they detail extensively that she suffered no injuries (among a number of other important things).

By the way, AA never claimed first to be Tatiana, then switched to Anastasia-it was a fellow patient who erroneously identified her as Tatiana.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 19, 2004, 08:31:08 PM
And she never claimed to be anyone until the other patient gave her the idea first ;)

I still think there could have been treatment that was not  in her records, or that other records may have been lost or destroyed. Where did this story come from if it never existed?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on October 19, 2004, 09:51:04 PM
Quote
And she never claimed to be anyone until the other patient gave her the idea first ;)

I still think there could have been treatment that was not  in her records, or that other records may have been lost or destroyed. Where did this story come from if it never existed?


Annie-

To be absolutely correct she never claimed to Anastasia until she had been erroneously identified by another patient as Tatiana-the facts don't allow anything further than that statement, so the idea that someone "gave her the idea first" is just opinion.

The records included previous reports, but the important thing is that they confirm that FS sustained no physical injuries, nor in her examination were any marks, scars, or deformations noted during a careful examination (nor in any of the exams that followed over the next 3-4 years).  The story that she suffered these injuries seems to have cropped up in the 1920s when the Berlin police detective attempted to prove that AA was FS, and needed to explain the scars.  Why no one consulted the records during the period before the war I couldn't say, and they were presumed lost after WWII, but were not.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on October 19, 2004, 11:22:19 PM
Quote

I believe that is what Annie said. That she never claimed to be anyone (including Anastasia) until the patient said Tatiana, giving her the idea to say Anastasia. In fact, anyone was her exact word.


Well, not quite...Annie said she didn't claim to be "anyone until another patient gave her the idea first."  The structure of that sentence implies that AA only got the idea to claim identity based on what another person said, which is I think wrong.  You can call it semantics if you like, and I know Annie genuinely believes AA was not Anastasia (which is fine, since as far as I'm concerned exactly who AA was or was not is still an open question), but the suggestion is that she (AA) only got the idea after another patient raised the issue, which suggests deliberate fraud; in this case, whatever you think, I don't see any credible evidence of deliberate fraud.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on October 20, 2004, 12:02:00 AM
Quote

Well itsn't that what happened? Did Franziska/Anna Anderson/Anastsia Manahan/Mrs. Claus/whoever start claiming to be Anastasia after the patient said she was Tatiana?  


Maybe I'm not explaining this properly.  It's not that she didn't make the claim until after the other patient erroneously identified her as Tatiana-that's a given.  It's the wording-"until another patient gave her the idea first."  That clearly implies that AA only got the idea to claim to be Anastasia after having been influenced by the other patient; the way I read it, Clara Peuthart makes the erroneous claim that AA is Tatiana; AA then gets the idea to claim to be Anastasia.  And that's why I tried to point out that the wording is more reflective of opinion than of fact-the idea that AA would not have claimed to be Anastasia had not CP given her "the idea" first, which no one can say is a certain fact.  I hope that makes sense.

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 20, 2004, 12:00:55 PM
All this is very interesting about the lack of wounds.  This should be taken over to the Anna and Anastasia thread 2.



AGRBear

PS  Since we're assuming  Anna wasn't Anastasia,  then the scene looks more like "acting" for Anna who would have taken advantage of Yussupov's talking to her, and,  what he did or did not say,  no longer seems to be important, it's what she made of it that helped her case of being Anastasia, that seems to be the point to be considered here.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 01:22:06 PM
Quote

How is that any different?


That's right, it's the same thing.

AA never said a word about any GD until the other patient did. She only claimed to be Anastasia after crossing off all the other names when handed a list. She never came out and said she was AA until someone else gave her the idea.

As for the wounds, if FS didn't have wounds when her records were last kept then did in 1920, it is very likey something happened to her during her time she was missing. It is also possible she did not seek treatment, or as I said before, was treated anonymously as a "Jane Doe" (and Anna Anderson is the European version of Jane Doe) or the records were lost in WW1.

I really can't see how anyone still holds out any claim for AA being Anastasia, or why they'd even want to.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 03:59:40 PM
Look for the last time, I do not hate AA nor do I 'not want it to be true.' As I have stated many times, I was a believer for YEARS, I loved her and her story, felt it deeply and wanted badly to believe it. But with the DNA and other evidence it all seems very unlikely and I realize it was mostly wishful thinking on my part. Yes, I believe anyone who continues to force the issue even now has an agenda. I would much rather the issue of the missing bodies be explored more than one more old tired game of AA being Anastasia.

Also, the possibility of undocumented injuries is not out of the question at such a time of turmoil and upheaval in Europe.


Have a good time in Newark, AnastasiaFan, sorry I couldn't go!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 07:02:04 PM
If the DNA tests don't do it for you I don't think anything ever will. As far as I'm concerned, the AA crap is over. She was NOT Anastasia, end of story. There is still the question of the missing bodies and what really did happen to the real Anastasia dead or alive, most likely dead. But constantly trying to prove the AA thing only wastes time for nothing. I know you guys are tight with Kurth and don't want to hurt him but come on. New theory please.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 21, 2004, 08:22:32 PM
If Penny Wilson,  who has seen all kinds of evidence we will never see, can keep an open mind about Anna Anderson,  why is it so hard for others to do the same, or, allow her the right to do so?

Wilson and King have been most helpful in giving us information which they could keep to themselves and present only in their Atlantis Mag..

Let me thank them both for their generousity.

As they know,  I don't always disagree with them but there is no reason to attack their views.  Use reason.  Use evidence from sources you have which shows why you may disagree.

If FS did not suffer wounds on the day of factory explosion,  did the records show she already had scars?

AGRBear




Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 10:23:58 PM
I AM using reason. The DNA tests prove that AA was NOT Anastasia. Anything denying this is just a grabbing at straws conspiracy theory, either from dreamers (which I used to be) or someone with an agenda. My mind was plenty open until the DNA proved that AA was not related to Alexandra's family. Even FA himself has said this is so.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 21, 2004, 10:34:47 PM
First, I am NOT the final answer on all things. True, to me, the evidence is indeed compelling beyond a resonable doubt now that Dr Gill's testing was reliable. Dr. Knight's paper really did not, to me, show any tangible basis for doubt. Helen has far more succinctly posted the argument than I could.
THAT SAID, we must leave room for other opinions. I respect Penny and Greg immensely. If they have a reason to believe there may be reason to discuss the issue, they have that right to do so and I for one will make certain that they always have that right in here.

So, please, so long as the discussion sticks to the facts and known evidence, we must respect the right of others to have a different opinion than our own.
thanks
FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 22, 2004, 08:50:50 AM
Wow, what a wimp out from your last 10 posts on this subject where you stated emphatically that AA was NOT Anastasia over and over again, that it was impossible.  You were also the one who always used the term 'agenda' to define why anyone would still be pursuing this. If I said what I really thought was going on with this 'agenda' I'd get banned. :-X But I am surprised you turn coats on this. We all know anyone is welcome to say what they want, but I will miss your voice of reason.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 22, 2004, 09:50:51 AM
Annie,
I do represent the side that believes, totally, that it IS impossible for AA to have been Anastasia. I will never say otherwise.
What Im trying to say, and I have discussed the issue privately with Penny, is that Penny and Greg have done much research into the subject, more than 99percent of those in this forum, and we respectfully agree to disagree on this point.
Just because I will not accuse Penny of pursuing an "agenda" does not mean I have "wimped out" in my support of, to me, the impossiblity of AA being AN. I just defend her right to voice a REASONED different opinion.
FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 22, 2004, 09:55:31 AM
Well, let's just say I believe there is a 'reason' for the 'reason' she continues to push this ;) I find it hard to believe that such intelligent, educated, well researched people actually believe something that has been proven to be false, I have to think there is something else behind it, yes, an agenda.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 10:28:15 AM
King or Wilson,

And,  what new have you found which has caused you to have doubts about  Anna Anderson which Annie has noted?

Wilson wrote:  >>The possibility still exists that Anastasia's fate is tied to that of Fraulein Unbekannt, and to ignore this avenue of investigation simply because some people have decided that it is unpalatable is irresponsible and unreasonable.   Then again, what difference does it make how I choose to spend my efforts? <<

Are you telling  us that somewhere along the line these two, Anna Anderson and the real Anastasia knew each other?

AGRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 10:53:24 AM
If FS did not suffer wounds on the day of factory explosion,  did the records show FS already had scars?   Perhaps scars not found on Anna Anderson???
 
AGRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 11:15:28 AM
Perhaps you'd like to tell everyone who Grossmann was and how many women he may have killed and that he had sold these poor women's bodies as meat from his cart to  the desperate people who were starving.

AGRBear

PS   Oh, wait,  that book is probably still on the shelf and hasn't been boxed, yet.  I'll go get it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 12:01:17 PM
I remember the first time I had read there might be a connection between Georg Karl Grossmann and  Franziska Schamzkovski [sp. used in the book] and the possible connection to Anna Anderson.

Book is:
Encyclopedia of Murder by Colin Wilson and Patricia Pitman, Printed 1962  pps. 243-44.

The book tells us that Grossmann was a serial killer who lived in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus.....  The police found a "trussed-up"  body of a female recently butchered in Grossmann's kitchen.

The serial cases became known as "Die Braut auf der Stulle"  [Bread and Butter Brides" which refers to many of his victimes having been "companions of the night known in Berlin as "brides"].

The police think that Franziska was murdered by Grossmann and the police records show they told Schamzkovski family on 13 Aug 1920 due to the entry in Grossmann's diary.... Yep,  he kept a diary and list of his victims.  The name he wrote was "Sasnovski".

I remember when I read that Grossmann had hung himself in his cell,  I thought,  "Well,  wasn't that conventient for everyone."

It is thought Grossmann may have killed more than 50 females, one of which was FS.

GRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Michelle on October 22, 2004, 12:18:11 PM
I am utterly appalled and at Annie's rudeness.  Maybe she still does believe in AA but for some odd bizarre reason doesn't want to admit it out of pride. ;)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 12:40:15 PM
Wilson wrote:

>>The evidence reads that FS was resurrected as a convenient decoy some time after her family had come to grips with her murder.  <<

A "conveniet decoy".

Hmmmmmmmmm,  this kinda puts a lot of thougts in my brain.  


The plot thickens.

Plot?

Now,  who would have carried out such a plot and why?   My eyes seem to be turning toward the photographs of Lenin and Stalin, who didn't want the world to know______...   I could fill in the rest of the sentence,  but I'll let you.

AGRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 22, 2004, 02:02:56 PM
Quote
I am utterly appalled and at Annie's rudeness.  Maybe she still does believe in AA but for some odd bizarre reason doesn't want to admit it out of pride. ;)


Ummm, no. 15 years ago I'd have loved to play along but it's beyond that now, and I don't like to see Penny dragging newcomers like you along for a ride that is not real. Sorry that's what gets to me.

I also don't see why any alleged new evidence is more real or more important than what was drug out during 40 years of litigation while the involved parties were still alive.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2004, 02:41:37 PM
King and I have had this debate about using "old books" to show evidence.   Above,  I used a 1962 book which tells us about FS and Grossmann.   Proving, once again, Old Bears and old books are not to be ignored  
;D .

AGRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Greg_King on October 22, 2004, 10:03:27 PM
Quote
King and I have had this debate about using "old books" to show evidence.   Above,  I used a 1962 book which tells us about FS and Grossmann.   Proving, once again, Old Bears and old books are not to be ignored  
;D .

AGRBear


Hey AGRBear-

I think you must have misunderstood what I meant.  I was trying to suggest that, before referring to an older, pre 2003 book on a question about this or that issue and posting "X says in..." that you first check "The Fate of the Romanovs" to see what if anything we may have learned about it, since we tried to examine all previous assertions and theories and look at evidence both pro and con.  It was simply a suggestion to try to save some time.  But I would never disavow the importance of any book in this case-believe me!

Greg King
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on October 23, 2004, 02:55:39 PM
Wow! It seems that this particular thread is becoming very volatile! Annie seems to be very set in her ways, and some people appear to be quite upset.

I think that I can understand where Annie is coming from. She isn't trying to be contentious, but merely operating from the standpoint of a philosophical understanding of knowdledge that is not longer held in many quarters- namely rationalism and empiricism. Only a short number of years ago her viewpoint would have been seen as overwhelmingly correct. Now, however, we have to ask some questions. Allow me to explain.

In graduate level education, at this time in history, one of the hots topics has to do with "modernism" and "post-modernism."  Modernism was a viewpoint that insisted two things


1. It is possible to arrive at certainty, as far as truth is concerned.

2. This certainty has to be arrived at through scientific/empirical evidence and proofs. In other words, if something cannot be perfectly explained through scientific methods, then it is not true.

    The fallacy of modernism was this. Noone, NOONE is able to arrive at "truth," [in any discipline] entirely through scientific rationalism. There has to be an element of faith and belief and probability. [When I refer to faith and belief I'm not speaking of religion. I'm speaking of a wider principle in knowing and relating]. Modernism was eventually discredited when it was seen that this philosophy led, ultimately, to skepticism about everything.
 
    Now, in the post-modern world, we are much more apt to listen to the stories of people's lives, and to accept that it is okay for us to "not understand" some things.

    Annie seems to be operating, philosophically, from a modernist standpoint. To a good, rational, empirical modernist any other evidence besides DNA would be "stupid," or as Annie puts it, "crap."

     I think we need to be understanding of the Annies of the world. Some people are still steeped in a dry, rationalistic understanding of life, and until they catch up with the post-modern age, we simply have to bear with them.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 23, 2004, 04:03:18 PM
Quote

Dear Bear,

No, no evidence that we have seen -- from various doctors and institutions, from her mother, from her sister and brother -- says that she had any scars at all.  The family testimony falls under the "are there any distinguishing features" sort of question that relatives of missing persons are often asked.  The medical testimony comes mostly from admissions/initial examination paperwork.  Franziska Schanzkowska was a person who was documented quite well right up to within a week or two of her disappearance.  It is always possible that she had some sort of accident in that last week or two, but any resultant scarring would have been fresh and perhaps unhealed -- and could not have matched the scarring on Fraulein Unbekannt's body, which was "old" scarring.

There was rather an extensive Berlin Police investigation into FS's disappearance, at the end of which it was concluded that she had been a victim of Georg Grossman.  This investigation included much more evidence than Grossman's own diary -- often cited -- where a name similar to Schanzkowsky is recorded (from memory, I think it was rendered something like this: Czenkowski).  Before you ask, it is true that the Berlin Police Department's records were mostly destroyed in the second war, but certified copies of records were routinely sent to other interested entities, like private investigators, etc, and this is where we located Franziska's information.

I believe it most likely that poor Franziska was killed by Grossman.  In any case, I deeply, deeply doubt that she was connected to Fraulein Unbekannt in any way.  The evidence reads that FS was resurrected as a convenient decoy some time after her family had come to grips with her murder.  Her mother was very upset at this, never believed that Fraulein Unbekannt was Franziska, and resented her tragedy being used in this manner.  As she --and others -- have pointed out, Franziska was hardly unknown in the Berlin mental health community.

I'll see what I can dig up this afternoon on some of the other issues raised here...



I hope this thread can get back to some very interesting old/new data which doesn't seem to have been ackownledged accept by King, Wilson, Annie and me.  

Did anyone else notice that Wilson is telling us that Franziska S.  may have been murdered by Grossmann before 13 Aug 1920?

Did anyone else notice when Franziska S. disapearance had occured her family had said to the police that Franziska S. had no scaring that would be of any use for idenitification if her body was found?

Did anyone else notice that when the explosion occured in the factory, that Franziska had not been injured?

Why important?  Anna Anderson had old scars when she was in the asylum.

If we just take this evidence then Anna Anderson couldn't have been Franziska S.

So,  how could the  intestines used for the DNA be  Franziska's if she had died before 13 Aug 1920?

Hello.  Anyone out there?  

With this evidence,  it might make you wonder who was Anna Anderson if she wasn't Franziska S.  or  GD Anastasia?  Oh, dear.  Does this mean Anna Anderson might have been GD Anastasia and we can't prove one way or the other because we don't have anything which we can use to establish Anna Anderson's DNA?

Annie,  it does appear we are about to  chase our tails.....  and around and around we're going to go, again....

AGRBear
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 08:59:25 AM
Quote
Wow! It seems that this particular thread is becoming very volatile! Annie seems to be very set in her ways, and some people appear to be quite upset.

I think that I can understand where Annie is coming from. She isn't trying to be contentious, but merely operating from the standpoint of a philosophical understanding of knowdledge that is not longer held in many quarters- namely rationalism and empiricism. Only a short number of years ago her viewpoint would have been seen as overwhelmingly correct. Now, however, we have to ask some questions. Allow me to explain.

In graduate level education, at this time in history, one of the hots topics has to do with "modernism" and "post-modernism."  Modernism was a viewpoint that insisted two things


1. It is possible to arrive at certainty, as far as truth is concerned.

2. This certainty has to be arrived at through scientific/empirical evidence and proofs. In other words, if something cannot be perfectly explained through scientific methods, then it is not true.

     The fallacy of modernism was this. Noone, NOONE is able to arrive at "truth," [in any discipline] entirely through scientific rationalism. There has to be an element of faith and belief and probability. [When I refer to faith and belief I'm not speaking of religion. I'm speaking of a wider principle in knowing and relating]. Modernism was eventually discredited when it was seen that this philosophy led, ultimately, to skepticism about everything.
  
     Now, in the post-modern world, we are much more apt to listen to the stories of people's lives, and to accept that it is okay for us to "not understand" some things.

     Annie seems to be operating, philosophically, from a modernist standpoint. To a good, rational, empirical modernist any other evidence besides DNA would be "stupid," or as Annie puts it, "crap."

      I think we need to be understanding of the Annies of the world. Some people are still steeped in a dry, rationalistic understanding of life, and until they catch up with the post-modern age, we simply have to bear with them.



Actually, I am not much of a scientist at all. I am very mystical, spiritual, I believe in ghosts, the afterlife, mysteries, other dimensons, UFO's, all kinds of weird stuff. But the AA thing is just such a dead horse already! It had been drug through court for 4 decades, and had numerous books written about it. I cannot believe there is anything else left to hold this up, not even the very loose theory that FS was murdered (strange this never came out in all those years of litigation!) And yes, I would say a DNA test that proves that AA was not related to Alexandra's family and was likely related to FS's family is a big thing there.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 24, 2004, 10:02:35 AM
AND

If I just might point out, and can do since Im guilty as well, THIS thread is about Anna claiming Felix tried to kill her and NOT about whether AA was AN or FS....so, lets stick to topic  and take the other discussion over to the Anna Anderson thread.
Thanks
FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 11:26:26 AM
Okay sorry, but I do have one more thing to add on the Yussoupov trying to kill AA theory. In most reports, AA seemed shocked and scared at the mention of the name Felix when told he was coming to see her, then when she found out it was FY she sighed "Felix -YUSSOUPOV, how nice, is Irina with him?" Could it be the initial fear of the name Felix was because for a second she thought that it was FS's brother Felix come to expose her?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 06, 2004, 10:52:03 AM
I mentioned this in another thread but it's more appropriate here. This is something else that hasn't been discussed that maybe needs to be as part of the story of Anastasia and the pretenders.


I  have been thinking, on the topic of Sigusmund claiming to recognize her, as well as the Georgevna sisters Nina and Xenia: how many of us could pick out of the crowd a cousin we only saw a couple times a year as children, once they were grown up? Think about that! At a recent family gathering, I did not recognize a cousin I had been kind of close to as a child and young teen until she spoke to me first. If you had put her in a lineup with 4 other similar looking women I'm not sure I'd have chosen the right one. Due to the war and revolution, the family was not visited as much and Anastasia not seen so much during the last years, which were the years of her adolescence and changing  in appearance. So of course people might be confused. This is yet another reason for me to doubt AA.  

Thoughts? Think about your own lives, your own family holiday dinners, your cousins. Would you have recognized them if you only saw them 2 or 3 times a year and hadn't seen them at all from say, age 12 until they were grown to adulthood? Wouldn't there be some question if asked to recognize and identify them?

I really think those who had been closest to her, and those with the best memories were the ones who rejected her outright. Others who were confused were maybe feeling bad and wanting to make totally sure before they rejected her, just in case. A lot of the family and friends who saw AA may not have been close to the youngest daughter and just saw her in passing and never paid much attention to her, and the cousins who knew her as a child may not have seen her in years. For example, the Georgevna sisters were often living abroad, Sigismund did not visit frequently, I'm not sure they saw each other after 1909 or at least 1912. As I mentioned before, socializing was cut down after 1914, and this was the time Anastasia started to change and grow up. So it's something else to think about.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 06, 2004, 03:03:11 PM
Annie-
    You said in your post that the ones who knew her best rejected her outright. I have to say that in this you are completely mistaken, from an objective historical standpoint.
    Grand Duke Andrew, alone of the Vladmirovichi, was a personal friend of Nicholas II, and on good terms with the Tsar. Further, Andrew was an aide-de-camp to Nicholas. He saw Anastasia EVERY DAY during the war. I believe the last time Olga saw her was for less than an hour in 1916. Prior to that they had not been together since 1913. Andrew Vladmirovich knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did.
    Further, Lili Dehn knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did. Lili saw her at the palace EVERY DAY, and even lived in the palace for a time after the revolution. Lili accepted her as authentic without question.

    Zinaida Tolstoy accepted her without question. For heaven's sake, the woman [AA] began to cry when Zinaida began to play the piano. Why? Because she was playing a song that noone had ever heard except the four grand duchesses and their immediate family. Only Anastasia could have known to cry over that particular song.

    Shura Gilliard [nee Alexandra Tegleva] accepted her without question, with the words, "These are Anastasia's feet." Even though her husband behaved perfectly beastly in the matter Shura never recanted, EVER. Having been Anastasia's nursemaid from birth she knew her better than ANYONE, and she accepted her.

    No, Annie, you need to get your facts straight. The people who knew Anastasia best accepted AA as being authentic.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: BaronessSophie on November 06, 2004, 07:12:12 PM
Hmm I don't think Andre was closer to Anastasia than Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse, her aunt Olga, or Baroness Buxoevedon. Gilliard rejected her and Anna Vyrubova was never consulted.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Val289 on November 06, 2004, 07:48:54 PM
Quote
I  have been thinking, on the topic of Sigusmund claiming to recognize her, as well as the Georgevna sisters Nina and Xenia:



Actually I do believe that Nina did NOT recognize her as her cousin.  However, Nina did say : "Whoever she is, she is no Polish peasant.  She is a lady of good society and it is not true that she cannot speak Russian.”

But you've posed a very interesting question.  I think it would be rather hard to recognise a cousin I had only seen off and on...... but I can't really say that for sure - as I've never been put in that situation.  There would certainly be a lot of questions in my mind if I was called to recognize and identify them.  
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 07, 2004, 08:05:02 AM
Quote
Annie-
     You said in your post that the ones who knew her best rejected her outright. I have to say that in this you are completely mistaken, from an objective historical standpoint.
     Grand Duke Andrew, alone of the Vladmirovichi, was a personal friend of Nicholas II, and on good terms with the Tsar. Further, Andrew was an aide-de-camp to Nicholas. He saw Anastasia EVERY DAY during the war. I believe the last time Olga saw her was for less than an hour in 1916. Prior to that they had not been together since 1913. Andrew Vladmirovich knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did.
     Further, Lili Dehn knew Anastasia much better than her father's sisters did. Lili saw her at the palace EVERY DAY, and even lived in the palace for a time after the revolution. Lili accepted her as authentic without question.

     Zinaida Tolstoy accepted her without question. For heaven's sake, the woman [AA] began to cry when Zinaida began to play the piano. Why? Because she was playing a song that noone had ever heard except the four grand duchesses and their immediate family. Only Anastasia could have known to cry over that particular song.

     Shura Gilliard [nee Alexandra Tegleva] accepted her without question, with the words, "These are Anastasia's feet." Even though her husband behaved perfectly beastly in the matter Shura never recanted, EVER. Having been Anastasia's nursemaid from birth she knew her better than ANYONE, and she accepted her.

     No, Annie, you need to get your facts straight. The people who knew Anastasia best accepted AA as being authentic.



No, I have my facts straight and I've heard all that, but there are even more convincing stories on the other side. I think anyone who mistook her was either hoping very hard or, as I described about the cousins after many years, mistaken. I find it hard to believe Andrew Vladmirovich was that close to the Tsar when the rest of his family was vermon to them, he was also living with Mathilde K. whom he stole from Sergei M., and even if he was there, I don't think the Tsar's young daughters would have been much interest to him on his visit.

And while you're speaking of getting your facts straight, check out the DNA test ;)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 09, 2004, 05:24:07 PM
Ok, Annie-
    I'm going to put the question much more bluntly.
    Lili Dehn knew Anastasia personally, better than nearly anyone else.
    Lili Dehn unreservedly recognized AA as being the authentic Anastasia.

    If Lili Dehn were to rise from the dead, and log in to this forum today, affirming that AA was indeed the daughter of her friend Alexandra, would you, in fact, tell Lili, "No, you are mistaken. This is not Anastasia. I know better than you?"
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 09, 2004, 05:36:23 PM
I think Olga, Ernie, Sophie Buxhoevedon and Pierre Gillard knew her better. Perhaps she was mistaken, or only wishful thinking. Anyway I would never accept or deny a person's claim on any one person's word.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lanie on November 09, 2004, 05:58:24 PM
I'd heard that regarding Lili Dehn that Anna Anderson had actually identified things wrong and she just knocked it off to her having been so traumatized, etc, but she got important things like "Oh, yes, this was Mama's bedroom," blah blah when N&A shared a bedroom... I dunno. Something like this.  I don't remember where I read it!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 09, 2004, 10:32:40 PM
Annie-
    Pierre Gilliard and Sophie Buxhoeveden did know Anastasia very well. I would even give grant that they knew her as well as Lili Dehn. However, I don't think it is tenable to say that Olga knew Anastasia as well as any of them. I have never read anything to the effect that Olga was a regular visitor to the Alexander Palace. As I understand it [correct me if I am wrong] for a long while, while the children [OTMAA] were growing up Olga lived in Kiev. As I have interpreted it [through the books I have read] though a close BLOOD RELATIVE Olga was not part of the inner circle. The immediate "family" [daily persona in the palace] consisted of Nicholas, Alexandra, the children, Anna Vyrubova, and Lili Dehn.

      Concerning Pierre Gilliard- He was a regular in the palace, but as a tutor he was an employee, a servant of sorts- a high-placed servant, but still a servant. He would not have been considered a personal friend, with the same relaxed familiarity as Lili had with the family.

     I have serious questions concerning Baroness Buxhoeveden and her rejection of AA. According to the literature that I have read AA accused BB of treacherously betraying the family in Siberia. As far as I know there was never any desire [on AA's part] to be recognized by Sophie. From the moment the Anastasia controversy began she [AA] detested her [Sophie]. If Sophie truly did behave herself, in Siberia, in a despicable way, there was good reason for her to issue a verdict of "not Anastasia." It covered her butt, so to speak.

    As far as Ernie is concerned. Of course Ernie did not know Anastasia as well as did Lili Dehn. Grand Duke Ernest lived way off in Darmstadt, hundreds of miles away. During the time the children were growing up he was busy governing a country. He could not have seen the children any more than once a year. Lili saw them every day.

    Just because someone is a blood relative, even a close one, does not mean as a matter of course that they necessarily are close to the person in question.

    Case in point- In my own personal life if my mother's best friend or my father's brother were asked to identify me, my mother's best friend would be a far more reliable witness. She has known me since I was born, whereas my father's brother has never, EVER had a daily participation in my life. The same would hold true for Anastasia.

    Now, as far as Pierre Gilliard is concerned- Whether one is pro-AA or anti-AA, it cannot be denied that he [Gilliard] behaved himself, during the Anastasia trials, in a perfectly beastly and unscholarly manner. Whether AA was Anastasia or not, Gilliard was in the pay of the Grand Duke of Hesse, and later on attempting to save his own reputation. He really did not care whether she was Anastasia or not, but was perfectly willing to sacrifice her, either way, for his own selfish ends. His behaviour, the last time he testified [before his death] proves this. At that time it was revealed that he lied, supressed evidence, and destroyed pertinent documents. Whether AA was Anastasia or not Pierre Gilliard's testimony of rejection is invalidated by the fact that he was a despicably petty and self-serving man.

    I reiterate- I am not saying that AA was Anastasia. I am saying that either way, Pierre Gilliard's behaviour neutralized his value as a witness.

    Another comment that you made- the comment that you would not accept or deny someone based on one person's testimony. I believe that you are using a double standard. You use the denial of Grand Duchess Olga to say that AA was not Anastasia, when Olga was the only close blood relative who ever agreed to meet her. That is the testimony of one person. However, you reject the testimony of Lili Dehn, on the grounds that she is "just one person."

    Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you, or anybody else thinks that Lili was mistaken. What ultimately matters is that Anna Anderson was accepted as an intimate friend from long ago by Lili, and that the two "found one another" again. The fact that Lili believed her to be Anastasia ultimately means more than your questioning of the reliability of Lili.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 10, 2004, 06:03:50 AM
Quote

I just want to jump in and briefly say this: Olga knew Anastasia VERY well. She was close to all of N&A's children. She was living close by as they were growing up, and Olga often took the girls out to little parties so they could get away from their somewhat sheltered life at the Alexander Palace. Read the book The Last Grand Duchess and you will see that she was very close to Anastasia, and she was perhaps the best person still alive to consult concerning the woman claiming to be Anastasia.


Yes, she did! Especially when they were older, right before the war. She loved to take her nieces shopping and to get ice cream. I've read that several times.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 10, 2004, 06:10:26 AM
Quote
Annie-
            Concerning Pierre Gilliard- He was a regular in the palace, but as a tutor he was an employee, a servant of sorts- a high-placed servant, but still a servant. He would not have been considered a personal friend, with the same relaxed familiarity as Lili had with the family.


Being their personal schoolteacher for 13 years would put him ahead of any lady in waiting in my book. I was very close to teachers I had for only one year, I can image having the same teacher for 13 years would have been even a better chance for  a close relationship. My mother and her siblings had the same teacher at a country schoolhouse for 8 years and they always remembered each other.


Quote
Now, as far as Pierre Gilliard is concerned- Whether one is pro-AA or anti-AA, it cannot be denied that he [Gilliard] behaved himself, during the Anastasia trials, in a perfectly beastly and unscholarly manner. Whether AA was Anastasia or not, Gilliard was in the pay of the Grand Duke of Hesse, and later on attempting to save his own reputation. He really did not care whether she was Anastasia or not, but was perfectly willing to sacrifice her, either way, for his own selfish ends. His behaviour, the last time he testified [before his death] proves this. At that time it was revealed that he lied, supressed evidence, and destroyed pertinent documents. Whether AA was Anastasia or not Pierre Gilliard's testimony of rejection is invalidated by the fact that he was a despicably petty and self-serving man.


I don't believe that of him. Ernie died in 1937, do you really think he'd go to so much trouble all those years, testifying way up until age 80, just to be mean? ESPECIALLY if she really was his beloved Stasi? No, I think he fought AA so hard out of love and memory for the real Anastasia and the IF. He didn't like the farce and wanted it to stop.

   
   
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 10, 2004, 06:38:02 AM
Lili Dehn was not just a "lady in waiting." She was one of the two closest friends of the Empress.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 10, 2004, 07:00:11 AM
I know but it still doesn't make AA any more believable to me. Like Lanie said, she got things wrong and Lili said oh well she's traumatized. I think she wanted to believe it so much she did but it wasn't real.

Speaking of 2 best friends, I find it oddly suspicious Anna V. was never asked to meet AA. My suspicions are that AV was THE closest to the family, even going on cruises and outings with them, and a definite NO from AV would have hurt AA's case so they avoided her. It would have been interesting to see her reaction.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lanie on November 10, 2004, 11:08:06 AM
One also must remember with the memoirs, ie with Gleb Botkin, the are often embellished.  Botkin never spent nearly so much time with the IF as he claimed.  I do not think Lili was nearly as close as Anna, Olga A., Gilliard etc were to the IF.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: stepan on November 10, 2004, 05:21:31 PM
Grand duchess Olga wasen´t the only close relative who met Anna Anderson. Princess Irene.her aunt met her as early as 1922 outside Berlin. The princess did not say who she was as she wanted to see her reaction. Suddenly AA ran away from the company and afterwards refused to speak to aunt Irene. It´s not the kind of behaviour you would expect from someone who wanted help and recogntion. This was her first great chance and she diden´t take it. Why? I think it´s obvious that she diden´t want to get recognized because she wasen´t the one she claimed. And what about her old English teacher Gibbes? He met her in 1954 in Paris.  He told that when he entered the room where she was she looked at him with suspicion,expressed no joy to see him,said very little and asked no questions. She was holding a newspaper in front of her face so only the upper part of her face could be seen. He said he was quite satisfied she was an imposter. He is also supposed to have said : If she is Grand duchess Anastasia then I am a Chinaman!
Olga Alexandrovna said about the meeting in Berlin  in 1925 that "as soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing home,I knew that i was looking at a stranger.The spiritual bond between Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don´t know what name to give that feeling but I do know that it was wholly absent. I left Denmark with some hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: BaronessSophie on November 11, 2004, 08:11:25 AM
Quote
Grand duchess Olga wasen´t the only close relative who met Anna Anderson. Princess Irene.her aunt met her as early as 1922 outside Berlin. The princess did not say who she was as she wanted to see her reaction. Suddenly AA ran away from the company and afterwards refused to speak to aunt Irene. It´s not the kind of behaviour you would expect from someone who wanted help and recogntion. This was her first great chance and she diden´t take it. Why? I think it´s obvious that she diden´t want to get recognized because she wasen´t the one she claimed. And what about her old English teacher Gibbes? He met her in 1954 in Paris.  He told that when he entered the room where she was she looked at him with suspicion,expressed no joy to see him,said very little and asked no questions. She was holding a newspaper in front of her face so only the upper part of her face could be seen. He said he was quite satisfied she was an imposter. He is also supposed to have said : If she is Grand duchess Anastasia then I am a Chinaman!
Olga Alexandrovna said about the meeting in Berlin  in 1925 that "as soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing home,I knew that i was looking at a stranger.The spiritual bond between Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don´t know what name to give that feeling but I do know that it was wholly absent. I left Denmark with some hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."


That is very interesting stuff, do you have any more from that book?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: BaronessSophie on November 11, 2004, 08:15:42 AM
Quote
           I have serious questions concerning Baroness Buxhoeveden and her rejection of AA. According to the literature that I have read AA accused BB of treacherously betraying the family in Siberia. As far as I know there was never any desire [on AA's part] to be recognized by Sophie. From the moment the Anastasia controversy began she [AA] detested her [Sophie]. If Sophie truly did behave herself, in Siberia, in a despicable way, there was good reason for her to issue a verdict of "not Anastasia." It covered her butt, so to speak.




I can't believe this on her! She is a favorite of mine and I love her books. She wouldn't betray the family and she loved OTMA!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Angie_H on November 11, 2004, 10:08:47 AM
Quote

I can't believe this on her! She is a favorite of mine and I love her books. She wouldn't betray the family and she loved OTMA!

Didn't you read FOTR?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Angie_H on November 11, 2004, 10:11:04 AM
Why was Dmitri never contacted regarding AA? He definately would have been able to identify her
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 11, 2004, 11:07:17 AM
Actually-
    Wow! I just hit on a stroke of genius!
    If it could ever be proved that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the imperial family that would be absolute, irrefutable proof of AA's identity.
    What I mean is this. At the time that AA made her statements concerning Baroness Buxhoeveden and her alleged betrayal, noone else knew anything, ANYTHING about that possibility. If it turns out that this is true then at the very least it means that Anna Anderson had to have been physically present in Ekaterinburg when the IF dissapeared. There is no possible way that Franziska [that soon after the events] could have had knowledge of a betrayal in Ekaterinburg. AND, who else would have been there to know of these events besides Anastasia?
     If the betrayal could ever be proved.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on November 11, 2004, 11:18:30 AM
Quote
Actually-
     Wow! I just hit on a stroke of genius!
     If it could ever be proved that Sophie Buxhoeveden betrayed the imperial family that would be absolute, irrefutable proof of AA's identity.
     What I mean is this. At the time that AA made her statements concerning Baroness Buxhoeveden and her alleged betrayal, noone else knew anything, ANYTHING about that possibility. If it turns out that this is true then at the very least it means that Anna Anderson had to have been physically present in Ekaterinburg when the IF dissapeared. There is no possible way that Franziska [that soon after the events] could have had knowledge of a betrayal in Ekaterinburg. AND, who else would have been there to know of these events besides Anastasia?
      If the betrayal could ever be proved.


No, because AA never said that, it's recent research that has only come out lately that suggests that happened, AA never said anything about it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ISteinke on November 11, 2004, 12:30:39 PM
Actually, Annie, yes she did. I will have to go back and find the incident again [in the book I read on the subject], but it is true that when AA was asked if she wanted to see Sophie she had nothing but nasty things to say about her, and even referred to her as a traitor.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Olga on November 12, 2004, 12:54:29 AM
Quote
Princess Irene.her aunt met her as early as 1922 outside Berlin.


Do you mean Irina Alexandrovna?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lanie on November 12, 2004, 01:24:41 AM
Nope - Princess Irene of Prussia, Alix's older sister.

Also - like Olga Aleksandrovna said, why on earth if AA was in Romania did she not go see Maria of Romania?  "Missy would not be shocked by anything," she said...or something like that...and it seems true from her personality!

Everything about AA is fishy to me, from her appearance to her story and the DNA clinches it for me.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Vive_HIH_Aleksey on April 11, 2005, 12:03:39 AM
Did Rachmaninov have any sort of relationship or meeting with Anna Anderson? I know he was her benefactor with helping her get to the US. Sorry if it's a stupid question, I have great interest in Rach, and find this an interesting tidbit.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 11, 2005, 04:03:54 PM
From what I understand, Rachmaninoff paid for AA's prolonged stay at a hotel while she was in New York. But he was only one of numerous Russian emigres who financially supported AA during her "carreer" as a Russian grand duchess.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: lexi4 on April 11, 2005, 08:41:19 PM
Quote
From what I understand, Rachmaninoff paid for AA's prolonged stay at a hotel while she was in New York. But he was only one of numerous Russian emigres who financially supported AA during her "carreer" as a Russian grand duchess.


Love your choice of words, Helen  :) It was quite a career.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Vive_HIH_Aleksey on April 14, 2005, 05:44:38 PM
Many thanks Helen. My friend Andy loves classical music, as do I, we both love Rach. He'll be really intrigued to hear it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: anna11 on January 26, 2006, 12:25:53 AM
Ive read a few books about Anna Anderson but Ive never heard, how come Irina(xenia's daighter) never met Anna Anderson?
In fact I don't even know whether she did or not it never says anything about her in books.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on January 26, 2006, 06:50:27 AM
She did meet Irina's husband, Felix Yussoupov, in 1927. He proclaimed her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of our Tsar." He said he spoke to her in Russian, English, French and German, yet she only responded in German. This was enough for him to denounce her immediately and testify against her in the trials for the rest of his life. I guess after he got home and told Irina, who was AN's cousin and knew her well, they had a good laugh, or perhaps a cry.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on January 26, 2006, 04:25:38 PM
 ;) Just an objective statement. Our daughter, and my husband speak more than a few languages. Many times they have been asked in these languages, direct questions, yet they respond in just the language they feel most comfortable in, or in the language they choose to respond. Sooo, what's difficult in comprehending that one may respond with how one responds ? Should someone be denounced because they don't respond to the person in the same language they make inquiry ?

How do you respond Anna when someone speaks to you Annie ? Do you speak any other language(s), or do you just speak one language. I'm trying to understand how others feel on this point? Thanks for any response.

Tatiana


Quote
She did meet Irina's husband, Felix Yussoupov, in 1927. He proclaimed her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of our Tsar." He said he spoke to her in Russian, English, French and German, yet she only responded in German. This was enough for him to denounce her immediately and testify against her in the trials for the rest of his life. I guess after he got home and told Irina, who was AN's cousin and knew her well, they had a good laugh, or perhaps a cry.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on January 26, 2006, 05:05:10 PM
Two things to consider:

1. She didn't understand the other 3 languages, which is why she ignored them.

2. German was the LEAST known and used of AN's 4 languages. She spoke Russian as her native language, learned English growing up because her parents spoke it to each other, and French because it was the language of the court. She took German lessons, but did not know it or use it nearly as much as the others. So why would it suddenly become the only one she understood? Because it wasn't AN, it was FS.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on January 26, 2006, 05:29:10 PM
Quote

1. She didn't understand the other 3 languages, which is why she ignored them.


Now now, miss Annie, aren't you going a bit over board? Already at Dalldorf it was determined that Anastasia spoke Russian "with a good accent and in whole, connected sentences, perfectly acceptable for a lady of high society".  Faith Lavington was going to give her English lessons at Schloss Seeon, and discovered that Anastasia already knew English. (Somebody who met "die kranke Dame" at Funkenmühle remember her as speaking more English than German.) And as for French, don't you remember the story from Paris when she ordered breakfast? As Agnes Gallagher said: I don't know if she actually spoke French, but we got exactly what we wanted for breakfast. So it is clear that the lady knew 4 languages long before she met Felix again. (I find myself in the same situation sometimes now, having spoken English for several years: I answer in English when being approached in another language.)
Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on January 26, 2006, 05:42:59 PM
Again, conflicting reports. He said this, she said this, he said she spoke this, she said she spoke that, he said she refused to speak this, she said she spoke Russian in her sleep, he said she blurted out Polish in church, blah and so on. We don't really know. But thankfully we have the DNA to solve the case and let us know who was right and wrong. No matter what she spoke and when she spoke it, she still wasn't Anastasia.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ordino on April 11, 2006, 10:02:44 AM
Hello everybody, just a point about the visist of Felix Y. to AA
I agree with AA if she did not want to speak with Felix Y, nor in Russian, English, German or morse.
Thanks.
Ordino :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rachael89 on April 11, 2006, 10:13:49 AM
Quote
She did meet Irina's husband, Felix Yussoupov, in 1927. He proclaimed her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of our Tsar." He said he spoke to her in Russian, English, French and German, yet she only responded in German. This was enough for him to denounce her immediately and testify against her in the trials for the rest of his life. I guess after he got home and told Irina, who was AN's cousin and knew her well, they had a good laugh, or perhaps a cry.

Do you mean that she only responded when questions were asked in German, or did she respond to the questions asked in the other languages as well?

Rachael
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on April 11, 2006, 11:58:28 AM
Quote
Quote
She did meet Irina's husband, Felix Yussoupov, in 1927. He proclaimed her a 'frightful playactress' and a 'wretched creature who could not possibly be the daughter of our Tsar." He said he spoke to her in Russian, English, French and German, yet she only responded in German. This was enough for him to denounce her immediately and testify against her in the trials for the rest of his life. I guess after he got home and told Irina, who was AN's cousin and knew her well, they had a good laugh, or perhaps a cry.

Do you mean that she only responded when questions were asked in German, or did she respond to the questions asked in the other languages as well?

Rachael

He said she only responded to the question he asked in German, in German.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rachael89 on April 11, 2006, 01:02:48 PM
Thankyou for making that clear Annie.

Did Felix know the Grand Duchesses very well? I know that Irina would of, growing up with them and frequently playing with the older girls, but I would of thought that Felix would of been too old to of been particuarlly close to Maria or Anastasia.

Rachael
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: hg123 on April 11, 2006, 01:07:29 PM
Quote
Hello everybody, just a point about the visist of Felix Y. to AA
I agree with AA if she did not want to speak with Felix Y, nor in Russian, English, German or morse.
Thanks.
Ordino :)

But she did speak with him. Just only in one language. Nor do I know which reason the real Anastasia should have not to speak with Felix. She wasn't that close to Rasputin, was she?

Edit: I think he probably knew them well enough, they were part of the family after all. But obviously there were better candidates to identify AA, irina being one of them. In the end, I guess Felix took the chance to be in the spotlight again. No way he would have missed the opportunity. ::) But I do think he knew them better than most of the very distant relations, who thought she was Anastasia.  

(HG123, who is as tempted to add, that if all members of this very big family had been as generous as Felix and his mother, the revolution might not have happened).

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ordino on April 12, 2006, 10:27:50 AM
Maybe AA did not want to talk at all with Felix Y. Sometimes the best disregard is have not regard, example:
AA hated Felix Y., (because Rasputin and so on.......), he went to see her, so she spoken with him but, in german, her mother birth´s language. Like a said in my first reply in this point, I agree with AA I did not speak with Felix Y. nor in English, Russian either in morse
thanks. Ordino :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: hg123 on April 12, 2006, 11:52:30 AM
It's just that it doesn't make much sense, IMO. If AA didn't want to speak with Felix for whatever reason, than she probably wouldn't have. But she did, just only in one language. Therefore I can't see any personal grudge behind this decision.

For example: As far as I know she outright refused to see Baroness Buxhoeveden. And therefore Buxhoeveden never got to met her when she wanted. That's obviously a big difference to AA's behaviour towards Felix, whom she did not refuse to meet.

Anyway, as long as Anastasia wasn't a much bigger fan of Rasputin than I expect her to be, I don't really see any reason why she should not speak to Felix. Much less a woman, who was definitely not Anastasia.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ordino on April 13, 2006, 07:26:43 AM
All NAOTMA were friends of Rasputin and Felix Y. was for then guilty of his dead. AA didn´t want to see Baroness Buxhoeveden because, like we know now for Greg King and others, the behaviour of the Baroness was not good at all when the family was in captivity. ( Problems with money, she was the only one to be alive.... ), maybe AA had no specially love of Baroness. Maybe AA did not want to see Baroness because of her behaviour, her bad behaviour in the past. Maybe AA did not think at all that if she refused to see her the people said that we are saying now: " Oh! look at this, she refused to see Baroness B. because the Baroness can say, no she is not AN). Really, AA was a very stubborn woman, in many ways and this was no good for her cause. Thanks. Ordino :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 08:19:07 AM
Quote
Thankyou for making that clear Annie.

Did Felix know the Grand Duchesses very well? I know that Irina would of, growing up with them and frequently playing with the older girls, but I would of thought that Felix would of been too old to of been particuarlly close to Maria or Anastasia.

Rachael

He probably wasn't close to them, being so much older, but this is what I say about Cecile, who claimed her, who was Felix's age. She was never close to her growing up, then got married and moved to Germany when AN was only 4. If she ever did make it back to Russia, it is unlikely she saw AN since you had to be 17 to attend adult gatherings and AN was too young. Even if she got a glimpse of her here and there she would hardly be an expert. Then after the war broke out in 1914 she couldn't come. So she couldn't possibly have seen AN after she was 12.

Felix probably did have much more access to the family's inner circle, even before he married Irina, because the Yussoupovs had a house at Tsarskoe Selo they spent much of the winter in. They were close to the IF until Alexandra disowned Zenaida for telling her to get rid of Rasputin.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 08:22:03 AM
Quote
All NAOTMA were friends of Rasputin and Felix Y. was for then guilty of his dead. AA didn´t want to see Baroness Buxhoeveden because, like we know now for Greg King and others, the behaviour of the Baroness was not good at all when the family was in captivity. ( Problems with money,

This depends on whether you believe the speculation or not. She was the one who was there. Gilliard was also there, and he never mentioned any bad behavior in his books. Even the Botkin children, who later became huge AA supporters, were there and never once mentioned bad behavior by her. It's terrible how this woman has been so villianized years after her death for storyline purposes.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 08:27:47 AM
Quote
Maybe AA did not want to talk at all with Felix Y. Sometimes the best disregard is have not regard, example:
AA hated Felix Y., (because Rasputin and so on.......),

Here is a contradiction among AA supporters. Here you say she didn't like him because he killed Rasputin, whom she loved. Other supporters claim she didn't want to involve Anna Vyrobova in her case because she was a 'disciple of Rasputin'. The real reason they didn't want AV is because she was closer to the family than anyone left alive, and would have known for sure AA was a fraud. The real AN wouldn't have minded her, she loved her, and Rasputin would not have been an issue since AN liked him and wore his icon around her neck.

So which one is it?

Quote
he went to see her, so she spoken with him but, in german, her mother birth´s language

While Alexandra spoke German perfectly, English was her first language and the one she used most. Her mother was English, she had an English nanny, and after her mother died when she was 6 she spent much of her growing up years in England with her Grandmother Queen Victoria. She wrote her diaries and letters in English, and spoke it  every day, yes, even to her children. So the real AN would have known English much better than German.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ordino on April 16, 2006, 02:31:31 PM
Yes Annie there are a lot of contradiction among AA supporters, but in this point again I agree with AA about Felix Y. Why she spoke in German?, who knows what happen in the head of this poor woman, but again why Irina did not go to see her and Felix Y. did? bad behaviour of Irina, but well done for aunt Olga A., she was herself.
And, really I don´t know why AV never did go to see AA. I will go to another issue of this forum to know.
And Annie thank you very much for your idea, the supporters of AA must be agree in our points of view.
Thanks. Ordino
Ps: Here in Spain is Easter´s vacances, so, happy Easter to everybody
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Valerian on June 20, 2006, 03:36:27 PM
As a footnote to the intriguing topic of Anna Anderson and the possibility Anastasia survived, I once asked Princess Ileana of Romania about this question.  This was long before DNA had resolved the matter.  The princess became quite agitated. Normally she was calm and dignified.  "No, no," she exclaimed.  "She was an imposter."  This from someone who actually had known Anastasia and who herself was also the great granddaughter of Alexander II made it clear to me that Anna Anderson was a hoax.  I don't think the princess ever met Anna Anderson, but she undoubedly had talked to those who had.  And I don't think she had any axe to grind.  She wasn't in line for any of the Tsar's money, if such even existed.  She probably would have welcomed Anna Anderson if she had any proof that she was indeed her cousin Anastasia.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 22, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
I know this has been discussed in many threads, but I have searched in vain for the quotes I'm looking for. Does anyone have the direct quote of when Olga told how she realized AA was not her niece when she saw her, and that the bond was not there? I think this may be in her autobiography? Any such quotes on AA and Olga would be welcome, along with any discussion on this topic. Thank you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on June 22, 2006, 08:54:25 PM
Quote
I know this has been discussed in many threads, but I have searched in vain for the quotes I'm looking for. Does anyone have the direct quote of when Olga told how she realized AA was not her niece when she saw her, and that the bond was not there? I think this may be in her autobiography? Any such quotes on AA and Olga would be welcome, along with any discussion on this topic. Thank you.

With pleasure Annie!

"The Last Grand Duchess" @ p 176:

"As soon as I had sat down by the bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home I knew I was looking at a stranger. The spiritual bond between my dear Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don't really know what name to give to that feeling - but I do know it was wholly absent. I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on June 22, 2006, 09:21:09 PM
@ p 174:

"I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German ... My nieces knew no German at all."

"Mrs Anderson didd not seem to understand a word of  Russian or English."

and a few more quotes @ p 176:

"I had a feeling that she was briefed."

"The mistakes she made could not be attributed to lapses in memory. "

"Then again I heard that a party in Berlin, when she was offered some vodka, Mrs Anderson said: "How nice! It does remind me of the days at Tsarskoe Selo!" Vodka certainly would not have brought any such reminder to my niece." .... My nieces never touched either wine or spirits - how could they at that age?""

On day 3 @ p 177:

"I had the impression that she was getting tired of playing a part someone had assigned to her."

"She did in fact admit that a scar, allegedly resulting from the blows on her head at Ekaterinburg, had been caused by her tubercular condition."

"My refusal to recognize my niece in Mrs Anderson was attributted to a telegram I was supposed to have received from my niece Xenia in England instructing me not to acknowledge the relationship on any account. I never received any such telegram."

"It's a complete fabrication," insisted the Grand Duchess."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 22, 2006, 09:23:25 PM
Quote
I know this has been discussed in many threads, but I have searched in vain for the quotes I'm looking for. Does anyone have the direct quote of when Olga told how she realized AA was not her niece when she saw her, and that the bond was not there? I think this may be in her autobiography? Any such quotes on AA and Olga would be welcome, along with any discussion on this topic. Thank you.

From a letter Olga wrote to Princess Irene of Prussia dated 22nd December,1926 (presumably in error for 1925):

"I was more moved than I can say by your kind letter, which was completely unexpected to me. I have often thought of you since I had to go to Berlin last autumn to see the poor girl said to be our dear little niece. Well, there is no resemblance at all, and it is obviously not Anastasia. I know that you also visited her, I was told of your visit by Grünberg, the old police inspector.
It has been claimed that she recognised me, but I will tell you how it all went. She had been prepared for my visit. She herself confessed to me that she was told: "On Tuesday you will have a great treat. Somebody is coming from Denmark." After that she could guess at once and expect her "aunt." She was unable to give an answer to a single one of the small intimate questions I asked her.
It was pitiful to watch this poor creature trying to prove she was Anastasia. She showed her feet, a finger with a scar and other marks which she said were bound to be recognised at once. But it was Maria who had a crushed finger, and someone who believed it was Anastasia must have told her this.
For four years this poor creature's head was stuffed with alle these stories, she was shown a mass of photos, etc., and then one fine day she hoped to spring her memories on the world.
Monsieur Gilliard and his wife, my husband, and also old Volkov (who used to be Alix's groom-of-the-chamber), have all seen her and talked to her, and none of them believes she is our Anastasia. It has been claimed, however, that we all recognised her and were then given intsructions by Mama to deny that she was Anastasia. That is a complete lie. I believe this whole story is an attempt at blackmail, but I am also convinced that a lot of people really believe in it - only they are the people who never knew Anastasia."

Upon meeting AA in Berlin, Olga reportedly said to Mrs. Rathlef: "Our little one and Shura seem very happy to have found one another again. If I had any money, I would do everything for the little one, but I haven't any and must earn my own pocket money by painting."
To Herluf Zahle: "My reason cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia. And because I have been raised in a faith which teaches me to follow my heart before my reason, I must believe that she is."

From a letter written by Olga to Herluf Zahle, October 31, 1925:

"I have had very long conversations with my mother and U[ncle] Waldemar all about our poor little friend. I can't tell you how fond I got of her - whoever she is. My feeling is that she is not the one she believes - but one can't say she is not as a fact - as there are still many strange and inexplicable facts not cleared up."

From cards to AA from Olga:

(undated)
"Don't be afraid. You are not alone now and we shall not abandon you."

October 31, 1925
"My thoughts are with you - I am remembering the times we were together, when you stuffed me full of chocolates, tea and cocoa."

November 4, 1925
"Thinking of you all the time."

December 25, 1925
"Am longing to see you."

Along with the cards came presents consisting of Olga's personal belongings, a shawl, a sweater and a photo album.

From a letter to Grand Duke Andrew:

"You think I may be wrong. Such mistakes can of course happen. One way or the other it is ghastly."

When Gleb Botkin was trying to arrange for AA to stay with Xenia Leeds at her estate at Oyster Bay, she asked if she could first consult Prince Christopher of Greece (her maternal uncle and the Dowager Empress' nephew).
Botkin met the Prince at a meal in the Leed's house, and was astonished to learn that he had not the slightest doubt as to AA's genuineness; when asked about the Grand Duchess Olga's present attitude, the Prince answered quite casually: "Of course Olga knows better than anyone that she is Anastasia."

Before Volkov's death in 1929 Professor Serge Ostrogorsky, one of nearly forty physicians who had served at the Russian court, asked Volkov to tell him the truth. "On the one hand he denied her identity," Ostrogorsky reported; "on the other he told me that his interview with the invalid had moved him deeply, tat he had been crying and had kissed her hand, which certainly he would never have done if someone other then the Grand Duchess had been standing before him." Pressed to account for this contradiction, Volkov started crying again and told Ostrogorsky, "It is true, I believe that she is the Grand Duchess, but how can the Grand Duchess speak no Russian?"

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 22, 2006, 11:34:05 PM
Quote
["I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German ... My nieces knew no German at all."

And we know that they all took German lessons all the way up to the travel to Ekaterinburg.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 22, 2006, 11:39:47 PM
Quote
 
  "As soon as I had sat down by the bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home I knew I was looking at a stranger. The spiritual bond between my dear Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don't really know what name to give to that feeling - but I do know it was wholly absent. I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."    


And to Herluf Zahle she writes: "I can't tell you how fond I got of her."

To her mother's secretary she writes: "Poor mamma, this will kill her."

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir


Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on June 23, 2006, 03:26:00 AM
Quote
Quote
 
  "As soon as I had sat down by the bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home I knew I was looking at a stranger. The spiritual bond between my dear Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don't really know what name to give to that feeling - but I do know it was wholly absent. I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."    


And to Herluf Zahle she writes: "I can't tell you how fond I got of her."

To her mother's secretary she writes: "Poor mamma, this will kill her."

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir


Remember that it is very easy to take sentences out of their intended context.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 23, 2006, 09:14:28 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
 
  "As soon as I had sat down by the bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home I knew I was looking at a stranger. The spiritual bond between my dear Anastasia and myself was so strong that neither time nor any ghastly experience could have interfered with it. I don't really know what name to give to that feeling - but I do know it was wholly absent. I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."    


And to Herluf Zahle she writes: "I can't tell you how fond I got of her."

To her mother's secretary she writes: "Poor mamma, this will kill her."

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir


Remember that it is very easy to take sentences out of their intended context.

Indeed. I take the 'poor mama' comment to mean that it would  hurt her to learn that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter. How on earth could ANYONE think that if the real AN were alive MF and OA would reject her? This is beyond insulting to them.

Thank you Belochka for the quotes!

Chatnoir, most of what you posted appears to be unreliable. Where were these cards and notes, is there any proof they ever existed, did anyone else see them, and were they really from OA? I am skeptical. And all your 'she reportedly said...'  comments look like a bunch of he said she said third hand unvalididated hearsay.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 23, 2006, 09:26:22 AM
Quote
Quote
["I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German ... My nieces knew no German at all."

And we know that they all took German lessons all the way up to the travel to Ekaterinburg.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 23, 2006, 08:22:46 PM
Quote

Indeed. I take the 'poor mama' comment to mean that it would  hurt her to learn that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter. How on earth could ANYONE think that if the real AN were alive MF and OA would reject her? This is beyond insulting to them.

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts, you would know that the Dowager Empress was fully aware of the unknown woman in Berlin.

Quote

Chatnoir, most of what you posted appears to be unreliable. Where were these cards and notes, is there any proof they ever existed, did anyone else see them, and were they really from OA? I am skeptical. And all your 'she reportedly said...'  comments look like a bunch of he said she said third hand unvalididated hearsay.

In a letter from Olga to Herluf Zahle, October 31, 1925:

"How is she after our departure? I have sent her a postcard and shall write from time to time so that she may feel we are near her."

These cards were treasured by AA, and she always kept them with her.
If I use "reportedly", it just means I wasn't there and have to rely on witnesses who were.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 23, 2006, 08:27:32 PM
Quote

And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.

Obviously you go with the wrong crowd. I took German for 4 years and speak it almost like a native.

From Anastasia's school books, we know that she made fewer mistakes in German than Russian. But AA never spoke German well, she spoke it rather poorly with a heavy Russian accent.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 23, 2006, 11:11:26 PM
Quote
Quote

And I know plenty of people who took German, or some other language for 2 or 3 years and other than hello, goodbye and counting to ten can't speak a word of it. Lessons do not equal 'speaking' it. What Olga A. and Gilliard were talking about when they said they didn't speak it was that they litrally did not speak it like they did Russian, English and French. So they took lessons and knew a few words but did not go around speaking it. They spoke Russian and English with the family and French because of the court. The only Germans they knew, Kaiser, Ernie, Ella, etc. spoke and wrote to the family in English, so there was no need. Sorry, but the fact that AA chose German as her language of choice when it was one AN barely knew and didn't speak is really a big gaping hole in AA's credibility.

Obviously you go with the wrong crowd. I took German for 4 years and speak it almost like a native.

Not speaking it welll comes from lack of use. AN did not use her German. AA dd not know her English or Russian.

Quote
From Anastasia's school books, we know that she made fewer mistakes in German than Russian.

This is because she was not as good at the cyrillic alphabet! Which reminds me, where is ANY proof AA was able to read or write in cyrillic?



 
Quote
AA never spoke German well, she spoke it rather poorly with a heavy Russian accent.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

No she didn't speak it as well as her native Polish dialect, however, she spoke it much better than English, Russian or French, something the real AN would not have done.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 24, 2006, 12:20:08 AM
Annie, I think you shoul re-read Peter Kurth again, you seem to have forgotten everything already.
AA spoke Russian like a native already at Dalldorf according to the nurses. (And don't try the worn-out argument any more that they could not distinguish between Russian and Polish!) She spoke more English than German in the early 20's according to Inspector Grünberg's nephew .
Already at Dalldorf, it was confirmed that she could READ Russian. She also taught the cyrillic alphabet to one of her "Ladies-in-waiting" in Unterlengenhardt, I think it was Miss Lammerdin.
And as far as spelling goes, I sometimes wonder if English is your first language. (It's my 4th.) ;)

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2006, 09:10:43 AM
Quote
Annie, I think you shoul re-read Peter Kurth again, you seem to have forgotten everything already.
AA spoke Russian like a native already at Dalldorf according to the nurses. (And don't try the worn-out argument any more that they could not distinguish between Russian and Polish!) She spoke more English than German in the early 20's according to Inspector Grünberg's nephew .
Already at Dalldorf, it was confirmed that she could READ Russian. She also taught the cyrillic alphabet to one of her "Ladies-in-waiting" in Unterlengenhardt, I think it was Miss Lammerdin.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

...and others said none of this was so. Who do we believe?

Can you confirm what language the alleged notes from Olga were written in? Olga herself said AA seemed not to know or understand English or Russian. Is there any evidence to prove which language it was or even if the cards were authentic? What happened to them? Who, besides her avid fans, saw them?

Quote
And as far as spelling goes, I sometimes wonder if English is your first language. (It's my 4th.) ;)

I consider this a personal attack. I have always been a good speller, except with foreign words or some names I might get wrong. You, sir, are very rude, and incorrect. Also, being an American, I seriously doubt English is your fourth language. Give us all a break.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 24, 2006, 10:26:24 AM
Who on earth told you I was an American???

The original letters written in Russian and employing the formal mode of address were still in AA's possession during the 1960's. Photostats on file in EHF.  

Quote
How ironic, since that seems to be exactly what "Chat Noir" is doing! I guess that's where he got the idea from! Even though the case is closed and most rational people accept the conclusion, whether or not it is what they wanted to hear, he continues to drag this dead horse around behind his car honking the horn. Since he has devoted so much of his life to proving AA was AN, he must feel reality somehow invalidates his life's work and his legacy that he turned out to be wrong and he can't deal with the humilation. Therefore he has to continue to pretend it's true, to try to make others believe in something that doesn't exist, and I really don't think he'd stop at anything to try to prove he was still right after all.

And you speak of personal attacks? But I forgive you, I do understand you mistook me for someone else. I'm still laughing when I read it. You and your horse really made my day.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on June 24, 2006, 10:38:11 AM
Chat Noir, you may not "be" an American, but you post from, and always have posted from, Los Angeles California.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 24, 2006, 10:45:54 AM
Quote
Chat Noir, you may not "be" an American, but you post from, and always have posted from, Los Angeles California.

Very true, but that does not automatically make me an American. As in this tangled web of grand duchesses and Polish factory workers: Everything is not necessarily what it seems to be at times.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rachael89 on June 24, 2006, 12:26:28 PM
Dear Annie

Why do you so readily thank one person for their help, yet scorn another? Chat Noir not only gave you many letters and quotes of Olga A's but both quotes that would support the AA claim and discredit it. Chat noir was only given you some of the material that you asked for, material relating to Olga A's opinion's on the AA claim.

The letters were in Peter Kurth's book (or at least one of the letters, I do not have the book to hand) and I find it hard to beleive that Mr Kurth is anything but reliable, and I personally do not beleive he would fabricate an entire letter! The letter is very loving and kind, and it speaks volumes as to how torn Olga was in her thinking, even though it may indicate her kindness towards a deranged stranger. When I find the book I will post the whole letter.

Regards

Rachael
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2006, 02:49:13 PM
I don't think he fabricated the letter, actually I was presuming one of her supporters did it. That's why I asked what language it was in, and I also wonder if anyone bothered to check the handwriting. Most of all I want to know if anyone but she and her most avid supporters actually saw this, or is it just hearsay? It seems so ironic to me that AA supporters always whine about stuff being backed up by sources, but even within their Bible, a lot of the 'evidence' seems to be mostly he said she said I think I thought I heard her say game of gossip passed down hearsay and rumors. Just because something is written down in a book and you can quote the page number does not make it a 'fact.' He did a good job of researching and collecting all this data(from one side, anyway) but do we really know how much of it was just bunk to begin with, and became even more distorted the more times the stories were told?

The reason I thanked Belochka is because she posted exactly what I was looking for.

And sorry I don't believe for one second 'Chat Noir' is not an American, or that English is his fourth language.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 24, 2006, 03:00:58 PM
Oh, Ye of little faith.
But I thank you for this marvellous compliment to my proficiency in English.
As for the letters, you don't seem to question the one from Olga to Irene where she denounces AA completely. As Rachael89 said, I gave you both sides of the coin, and you preferred to se only one. And again, copies can be found in the Fallows archives.

Kind regards,
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rachael89 on June 24, 2006, 03:13:43 PM
Right, but surely it was nice of Chatnoir to go and dig out the sources/quotes etc. in the first place?

And to be honest, I dobut there was much more he could do than record what AA said, in a simalar way to Ian Vorres only recorded what Olga A said. Though of course he probably had access to archives, files etc. etc.

People are always going to question everything and anything for reliability etc. but you can only go so far to check information, and as for me myself all I have availiable to me is the books that I own, I can't really cross examine everything ;).

Peter Kurth's book is quite good in that it's written from a relativelly unbiased perspective, apart from him refeering to Anna Anderson as Anastasia all the time, which can get confusing. To me, it's far more valuable than JBL book that contains many fabrications and lies, either from the author or from AA in a forgetful old age.

Best

Rachael

P.S. It isn't very nice to say AA supporters always 'whine about stuff being backed up', and not incredibly vital to the discussion either
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2006, 06:13:31 PM
Rachel, please stop taking offense to every remark I make. I usually put 'some' supporters, if not, please know that I don't know every single AA supporter in the world (though my son and daughter claim surely there are only about 5 left and they're all on here, no one else cares) but the remarks I make come from my own long personal experience with other posters here. If it wasn't you, it wasn't you. If the shoe fits, wear it, if not, it was a size 39. Btw fyi, I used to be a semi supporter and have come completely around to the other position, so I HAVE seen both sides of this, I have been researching this stuff since before you were born (my daughter is your age) so please don't think I just jumped in willy nilly and don't know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rachael89 on June 25, 2006, 03:14:48 AM
Hi Annie

To be honest, I didn't really take any offence, all I was trying to do was highlight how wording can give an unesscessary hostile air to what you write. This is not just you Annie, everyone does it, those on both sides of the AA/AN war.

And I know you know what you're talking about Annie ;), I wouldn't dream of saying anything different, it's obvious you research everything in great detail.

All the best

Rachael
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on June 25, 2006, 03:29:20 AM
Quote
If you had bothered to read my earlier posts, you would know that the Dowager Empress was fully aware of the unknown woman in Berlin.

ChatNoir

Awareness about an issue does not indicate its approval.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 25, 2006, 09:36:28 AM
Quote
Awareness about an issue does not indicate its approval  

And that is exactly what I stressed in my former post, that the Dowager Empress was very much against Olga's travel to Berlin and took no interest in the unknown woman at the Mommsen clinic.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 25, 2006, 11:22:54 PM
Quote
Quote
Awareness about an issue does not indicate its approval  

And that is exactly what I stressed in my former post, that the Dowager Empress was very much against Olga's travel to Berlin and took no interest in the unknown woman at the Mommsen clinic.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

Do you really think the real Grand Duchess Anastasia would appreciate your casting aspersions on her grandmother's character? Do you?

And do you think that the Empress had any good reasons why her daughter should not go to Berlin? As a mother, I can think of one or two. These two women, The Dowager Empress and Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna had lost many members of their family prematurely due to illness and Revolution. There was practically a cottage industry of "grand duchesses" during this time. I think a loving mother might want to spare her daughter the pain of yet another imposter - that's a very good reason for her not to want Olga to go. Also, as an Empress, MF was well aware that the visit could be misinterpreted as a recognition, a second very good reason. She realized that going could create controversy. I might add - it was misinterpreted and is still so controversial that we are arguing about it 80 some years later.

So, even if AA were an imposter - and we now know she was - Olga's going to visit her still brought her pain that any good mother would want to spare her AND the visit itself did cause controversy that any savvy politician would try to avoid.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 26, 2006, 08:46:11 AM
Again, I just quoted my sources. But just go ahead, shoot the messenger. That seems to be what you do best on this board.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 26, 2006, 09:06:42 AM
You mean the way the 'messengers' of the DNA facts get jumped on?

Sadly, there was nothing Olga could do to free herself of the wrath of AA supporters who wanted to use her for their own means Had she never gone, she'd have still been accused of 'abandoning' 'Anastasia' or being influenced by others not to go .She did go, and everything she did has been misconstrued as some kind of conspiracy by AA supporters to this day. They can't accept that the woman denied AA because she really wasn't her niece. You'd think the DNA tests would have exhonerated her, but some people just will not give up the ghost.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tsarfan on June 26, 2006, 05:16:12 PM
I do not intend to join the fray about whether AA was AN or not.  However, I really do wonder why it matters so much to people either way.

If I look at the fates of people who were incontestably close relatives of the last tsar, they fared rather poorly as a lot.  Other than the Dowager Empress, most of them went their separate ways and forged whatever lives they could.  Of those who did not trade on their names to marry heirs and heiresses, Xenia had perhaps the best of it, living in a grace-and-favor house on the charity of the British Royal family, who paraded around in jewels once owned by the Romanovs.  Marie Pavlovna the Younger had to work for a living, retrieving material from storerooms where she stumbled upon extra bolts of fabrics that once graced her family's apartments at the Catherine Palace.  One Grand Duke (whose name escapes me) was reported to be a chauffeur in Paris.  And Olga Alexandrovna, the last and closest relative of the last tsar, died in poverty over a barbershop, cared for by neither friend nor family.

The Romanovs as a ruling clan were not highly regarded in the years immediately preceding and following the revolution.  Most of the wealthy people who took an interest in their fates viewed it as an opportunity to pick off the spoils of imperial wealth -- Marjorie Post, Armand Hammer, Malcolm Forbes, even Queen Mary.  Other than to a few snobs who were desperate to acquire a royal pedigree (even a deposed one), the Romanovs were mostly curiosities on the world scene, relished as much for the collapse of their fortunes as for anything else.

By those standards, Anna Anderson's fate of having an eccentric but affluent professor jump to her bark right up to the end was really not too bad.  In fact, I can find no reason in the treatment accorded the other of the tsar's family members to indicate she could have expected any better.

If she wanted international attention, she got more than either Xenia or Olga.  If she wanted physical and financial security, she got more than Olga and many others.  If she wanted to be recognized as who she said she was, she fared well enough in having some people recognize her, given the difficult case she presented to her supporters.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 26, 2006, 06:03:04 PM
For the rest of the thread participants, may we please go back on topic?
Thanks for understanding.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ChatNoir on June 26, 2006, 08:31:25 PM
My apologies to Tania, but I don't know any better place to put my last posting. I have decided to quit this board, it gets tiresome defending oneself all the time from attacks.
A thank you to Bob Atchinson and his crew for letting me post on the forum. A thank you to members who have send me encouraging private messages with support and funny lines. And a big thank you to all of you who thought I was Peter Kurth, it really made my day.
Go on posting, stop bickering and be good to each other.

Kind regards,
Hans I. Svanoe
aka ChatNoir.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 26, 2006, 09:09:28 PM
WHEN will some AA supporters ever stop taking any challenge to their comments as 'attacks?' What do you want us to say, oh yes you're right, AA was AN? Answering 'attacks'? This is a discussion forum, and people are going to disagree with you. None of us can or should expect not to be challenged. This is what it's all about. That's not an attack. Why does everyone play the victim? sigh.

BTW I don't believe that's your real name, if for no other reason than people don't post their real names, unless they are fake. That's just how it usually goes. Very clever playing to be Scandinavian, since you already denied being American and French, and then ducking out before someone posts in a language you can't really read to show you up. You don't have to leave though, there's room enough for all here, and you can always come back as another alias!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 26, 2006, 09:50:30 PM
Strange, Chat Noir left the forum with a positive tone, in stating in a simple tone, 'stop bickering', be good to each other. Sadly what was posted by the poster after Chat Noir, was in the first part a positive tone, then went back to an attack mode.

Perhaps some posters leave to gain time away, and gain calm. But to add to the fray, hastening them out the door so to speak, does not in my estimation allow any healing process. 'If' that is the first part of that was stated that this forum 'is only a discussion forum', then should we attack every person when they leave, then where do we stand in terms of fairness?

I sincerely hope we can see that we may have differences, but leave a space for others to leave in the spirit of wanting them to return. Not take control and continue to say discourteous things about another, without proof, etc.

I hope Chat Noir will return and continue to participate on these forums.

Tatiana+

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 26, 2006, 10:07:28 PM
Annie, as you well know, my REAL name is what I use on this forum.  That comment was uncalled for.
 I too felt ChatNoit, left with dignity and had not made any judgement whatsover about this ridiculous search.
Along with another poster, I rarely comment  in these threads, although I do read the unending circus.
 To what purpose are you all arguing about ? What the hell difference does it make at this point ?
 
 Robert_Hall
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 26, 2006, 10:23:55 PM
Robert, I know that is your real name, but in this situation, it's different. I didn't think of you when I made that comment, it was about people who use aliases and claim to be someone they're not *or deny being who they really are) so they make up fake names. Remember "Nathan?"

What dignity, complaining about being 'attacked' just because people disagree with and challenge his views? I could say I'm being 'attacked' too because people don't agree with me all the time.  It's a discussion forum. We can't go running off because people post things we don't want to see, or I'd have been gone long ago. "Chat Noir" left because he backed himself into a corner he couldn't get out of concerning alleged languages he did or did not speak  both here and on the 'time of execution' thread in the final chapter section. He'll be back, in some form, I'm sure. Don't worry, be happy.

Kind regards,

Catherine Jane McManion,
Dublin, Ireland

 ;D
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 26, 2006, 10:51:30 PM
Robert,

You are quite right, to me and to many others, it is not important what a person goes by, and or if it is their given name. What is of greater importance, that they are involved, communicating, offer their opinions, whatever that may be, and that the forum exchange, without unneeded statements of harshness. That to me is  what'freedom' should be, without continuiously looking over one's shoulder to have to be looked on with suspicion. IN real life that is no way to live, and on the internet, no real way of just communicating. We must not keep casting suspicions on others, because of past persons who may have deceived us.

We must stop with one or two demanding to know someone's address. This is uncalled for, and I protest !!!

Challenging a member is one thing, but with the combined almost war like attack I have seen on this thread and others, it has more than churned my tummy.

The FA and moderators ALL monitor well these threads, and as you can all see, the person in question, are eventually nabbed. We are the posters, and should have enough to address without hounding each other, inmho. That's why we have monitors, in essence, not taking the control into our own hands, but leaving the FA and or moderators to address these given issues.

Lastly, Chat Noir has feelings as well, and gave the real reason of exactly why Chat Noir left. It is not up to others to talk for another person's feelings, or stating what what can or cannot do in their view. That is uncalled for.

Chat Noir left with dignity, and I'm glad you could see that this was the main focus of what and how we should continue. Thanks Robert for sharing your feelings here, because it is fair to do so.

Tatiana+  
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AlexP@asia.com on June 26, 2006, 11:17:55 PM
GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.27

Dear All,

Firstly, this quotation from Seneca in his Letters to Lucillius comes to mind.  I think that it is particularly fitting here:

[size=14]
sapiens nihil affirmat quod non probat      
[/size]

Might we return to the instant topic now?

All of the best,


Alex P.
GuangZhou, PRC
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Rebecca on June 26, 2006, 11:27:18 PM
Quote
My apologies to Tania, but I don't know any better place to put my last posting. I have decided to quit this board, it gets tiresome defending oneself all the time from attacks.
A thank you to Bob Atchinson and his crew for letting me post on the forum. A thank you to members who have send me encouraging private messages with support and funny lines. And a big thank you to all of you who thought I was Peter Kurth, it really made my day.
Go on posting, stop bickering and be good to each other.

Kind regards,
Hans I. Svanoe
aka ChatNoir.


[size=14]Hejsan Hans (Svarta Katten)!

Eftersom du uppenbarligen är norrman förutsätter jag att du förstår svenska, åtminstone i skriftlig form. (Jag förstår i alla fall norska, både som talspråk - såvida det inte handlar om någon mycket avvikande dialekt - och skriftspråk, även om jag inte talar norska.) Tillåt mig därför att säga att jag tycker att det är tråkigt att du har bestämt dig för att lämna detta forum. Även om vi, som du vet, inte är överens om huruvida Franziska Schanzkowska och Anna Anderson var en och samma person, eller om huruvida Anastasia Nikolajevna överlevde massakern i källaren till Ipatievs hus eller ej (att du misstänker att någon överlevde tycker jag mig ha förstått genom dina inlägg), så är det alltid givande att läsa eller höra andras åsikter, förutsatt givetvis, att de inte är alldeles för förryckta för att sätta någon tilltro till, eller rena fantasier. Jag hoppas att du omprövar ditt beslut, och fortsätter att delta i debatten.


---


I know that the language on this board is English, so please have patience with me for using another language in this post. If anyone would like to know what I have just written above, he or she is very welcome to contact me. :) [/size]
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 26, 2006, 11:45:29 PM
Dear AlexP,

Agreed !

Permissum Nos Persevero Per Assuredness Calmness quod Subsisto in Thema.  :)

Pacha!


Tatiana+
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 27, 2006, 02:55:25 PM
Both of you have missed the point in terms of 'opinions', and to just quote what you think if just, is not in this particular case.

Chat Noir was being attacked, just in context for his opinions. The crux of it was that it did not get to just a disagreement, or just a challenge from others. Chat Noir became lumped together in Annie's understanding, because he may have held an alternate persona online, and that has no place with any of the members, or posters. That is not our job period !.

That any poster may have a variance of opinion is certainly what is here plain as the noses on our faces, and should be. Nobody is the same in what they think, nor should anyone answer for another ever, and certainly not where their feelings are concerned.

Annie, Eddie, I or anyone, have no right to say 'we can't go off running because we post things we don't want to see, 'etc. This again has no place for any poster to direct in motion so to speak who can do what, when.

Chat Noir left of his own accord, and was not asked to leave by anyone. Chat Noir was NOT an abuser. Certainly not to be lumped together as those who have caused many here untold difficulties.We have moderators, and the FA just for those reasons above, and that's where it starts, and ends, imho!

I again state, Chat Noir despite differences, left with full dignity, without endless wrangling, disparaging comments about anyone. Chat Noir left of his own accord. Not as an abuser, certainly not as those who have caused many here untold difficulties. When a person leaves, leave them alone, period ! We are not jury, judge, and hangman! There are countless others here, so to leave essence that both yours are the final vote of everyone is not true.

As a member may leave, it may be just to gain perspective, and time away, but certainly not to be continued by any poster as it has been done here, to keep them in the future away from this forum.

It is outrageous to see that people have lesser of sensitivity, or that of boundries, but keep the fire stoking for their own needs, adding only broad discomfort in the end....and then say 'don't worry, be happy'.......... :-[

Tatiana+

Quote
Quote
What dignity, complaining about being 'attacked' just because people disagree with and challenge his views? I could say I'm being 'attacked' too because people don't agree with me all the time.  It's a discussion forum. We can't go running off because people post things we don't want to see, or I'd have been gone long ago. Kind regards,

Catherine Jane McManion,
Dublin, Ireland

 ;D

So true Cartherine!  ;D Maybe ChatNoir was hoping we would beg him to stay. Some people do that on here, I guess they have huge egos or something, I dont know  :-/

If people want to leave let them get on with it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 27, 2006, 04:35:29 PM
can any of you quote his "views"?
He simply quoted his sources for QUOTES, admittedly  some unreliable and some rather slanted, but he NEVER stated what he believed.
dealing with some of you is simply not a fair fight, it is just a mudsling.
 Annie, I expect better from you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 27, 2006, 04:45:18 PM
Didn't say what he believed? Weren't the posts always very obvious on that issue?Look Robert, you and Tania just don't understand everything involved here, (I do ,and so do several others) so please don't pass judgement so quickly.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 27, 2006, 04:55:29 PM
Do not understand what is involved ?
 Just what is involved then, Annie ?
We KNOW Anastasia died  in 1918, we KNOW that AA was a fraud, one way or the other. We KNOW GD Olga, with heavy heart denied the  claimant as such. We KNOW that the dowager Empress denied her as well.
 We KNOW that there was no fortune and we KNOW that some this is a long standing GAME .
 What do I not understand then ?
 Anyone can take quotes and  slant them to there own purpose. I happen to have seen no particular slant in  CN's quotes, they have been used ad nauseum before, by both sides of this ridiculous argument.
 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on June 27, 2006, 10:05:26 PM
Let's get back on topic please. The topic is not a poster's real name, why he/she left, where he/she is from and whether he/she is or was attacked. There seems to be a bit of an epidemic of this on the board lately judging by various threads and my PMs. Individual posters are not the topic.

I would make this request here, as on other threads, to keep to the discussion at hand and not get sidetracked for post after post on things that are not pertinent to the topic at hand.

These things are really better hashed out in PMs so that the rest of the board isn't dragged into conflicts or feel it is too unpleasant to read.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 27, 2006, 10:26:15 PM
No problem, GDElla, Annie and I are old friends on the same side of the fence.  Just a difference of expression here.
 I now bow out and go back to simply observing.
Respect to all.
 Robert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on June 27, 2006, 10:44:33 PM
It wasn't addressed to any one person in particular, Robert, I hope you didn't take it that way. It was more about the general drift the topic was taking--and not just here.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Tania+ on June 28, 2006, 01:47:11 PM
Dear Rebecca,

Thanks for your input, I enjoyed what you had to share.
I look forward to your postings. God Bless !

Tatiana+
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 02, 2006, 04:03:12 PM
Hello everyone, I thought I would start my own topic. Very novel!

Now, I would like to discuss AAs claim that she did not go and visit her Aunt Irene because Irene was Victorian in attitude and would have been disgusted with her for having a baby out of wed lock. Correct me if i'm wrong. :)

I think thats rubbish. Surely Irene would have been shocked and delighted (?) to learn that one of neices had survived!! and possibly give her information on Alix, her favourite sister. And like I said before this photo I think shows that Irene was close to her nieces :) and Henry too.

I dont think Irene and Henry were called "The Very Amiables" for nothing.

(http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/9106/irenesj4.jpg)

Such a nice photo.

Thank you, I hope this has not been discussed too much already and some people find it interesting.  :) :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2006, 08:12:29 PM
No Eddie this is something they haven't really brought up in much depth, thanks for starting the thread! Of course I believe what AA said was just a feeble excuse because she wasn't really AN and was afraid she'd expose her. Oh, and of course she couldn't judge her for having a baby out of wedlock when the poor thing was raped on the Rus ::)
scarcasm alert
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 03, 2006, 07:23:38 AM
No Eddie this is something they haven't really brought up in much depth, thanks for starting the thread! Of course I believe what AA said was just a feeble excuse because she wasn't really AN and was afraid she'd expose her. Oh, and of course she couldn't judge her for having a baby out of wedlock when the poor thing was raped on the Rus ::)
scarcasm alert

Lol, thank you Annie, I forgot that important detail! Apparently Irene later complained that AA was rude to her, hid under the bed clothes or something? Do you think that was because AA didn't actually know who Irene was? Or maybe someone had warned her before hand?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2006, 09:29:06 AM
So that's the one she hid under the covers from, lol! I'm sure somebody did tip her off. She didn't want to be seen by anyone who knew AN's face well enough to expose her.

I think it was hilarious how Sophie B. literally drug her from under the sheets when she tried to hide!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 03, 2006, 10:25:16 AM
hmmmm, AA seemed to have a habit of hiding under the covers...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Bev on August 03, 2006, 12:31:10 PM
They can't explain any of it - the fact that AA/FS didn't write to anyone, that she bypassed Ernest/Darsmstadt to go to Berlin, that AA/FS had a baby in Dec. of 1918, that someone who had her entire family wiped out, who supposedly loved animals and children would give up a baby because she didn't think "any little bastard should inherit the throne", that the mitdna and nuclear dna which had been tested in three labs by three different scientists was the result of skullduggery and conspiracy according to Peter Kurth - they inhabit some dimension unknown to sentient human beings.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Sissi on August 03, 2006, 04:39:37 PM
Irene was very upset with the Ana Anderson topic, she did complain that Ana was rude to her and that yes she did resemble her niece but could have not possibly be Anastasia, even thought she had not seen her niece for 9 years she was convince that even though there was a resemblance they were two different persons!
 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Raegan on August 03, 2006, 05:20:41 PM
Irene was very upset with the Ana Anderson topic, she did complain that Ana was rude to her and that yes she did resemble her niece but could have not possibly be Anastasia, even thought she had not seen her niece for 9 years she was convince that even though there was a resemblance they were two different persons!
 

And Irene turned out to be right.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: amelia on August 03, 2006, 05:24:31 PM
I never believed that AA was AN. But could someone give me an opinion on how AA knew so much details of the Imperial Court.

Amelia
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Bev on August 03, 2006, 06:34:29 PM
who said that she did?  I don't mean that sarcastically, either.  The people who would know best about what she might have known about intimate details of the imperial family were all dead.  There were also many articles about the royals in magazines and newspapers - people then were just as interested in their comings and goings as people are today.  I have a very old "Ladies Home Journal" from around 1916/17 with an article that claims Alexandra was a German spy.  If the American magazines were printing articles about the royals, you can imagine what the European media was printing and the newsreels they were showing. 

People don't want to admit they've been duped - especially by someone from a lunatic asylum. 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2006, 08:50:33 PM
Yes, she did get a lot wrong, and who verified if she was right or not?

One thing Amelia you need to consider is that there were THOUSANDS of Russian emigres' in Europe in those days. Virtually every aristocratic Russian who wasn't killed in the revolution fled to France, Germany, and other countries. There were 1500  people in the court, most of them survived. Dozens of servants, court members, some bringing their families, originally went to Tobolsk with the family, yet only three ended up executed with them. So in short, there were quite literally a large number of people who had been in the court and had known the family who survived and ended up in a postion where AA would have had contact with them. Some of these people met AA, some may have fed her info (like Dmitri in the "Anastasia" cartoon) to help her claim, others may have accidently dropped hints while talking to her and she picked them up and used them on the next person. Don't forget too that her biggest supporters were Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, children of Dr. Botkin, family physician. They  knew the imperial children, played games with them, and were around them until Ekaterinburg. They are very likely suspects IMO of helping her with her 'memories'. To me her memories seem like bits and pieces from someone with intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and their surroundings, thus explaining how she 'knew' some things but not others, and got some basic stories but the details wrong. How did she know? Easy- SOMEONE TOLD HER!!!

One more thing to consider is that there were not only magazines but a lot of books written by those who lived with the family that came out in the early 1920s. I'm sure these were very useful sources of info to AA and her supporters.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 17, 2006, 05:45:29 PM
A couple of points here. The original premise of this thread is a bit muddled. Grand Duchess Olga A questions in her memoirs (Vorres) why AA went to Berlin to seek out Irene when if she had been in Bucharest earlier than that as she stated, she could have easily seen Queen Marie who was Anastasia's cousin. Further, Olga states her niece would well have known that Missy would not have been at all shocked by a pregnancy while her Aunt Irene would certainly have been, amiable though she was. Olga's point kind of got lost here.

Her point is that the Romanian portion of AA's story has never been corroborated by any evidence whatsoever. She was supposed to have come to Romania from Russia. And, naturally, Olga said, if she had been there, why on earth didn't she go to Missy? The only logical explanation here is that AA was never in Romania at all and possibly never gave birth to a child at all.

Second, the whole what AA did and didn't know issue is kind of like chasing your tail. If there was something that was known by anyone who survived, that information could have been fed to AA. If on the other hand it was not known to anyone surviving, how would you prove it?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2006, 06:27:28 PM
The only logical explanation here is that AA was never in Romania at all

Ya think? :o ;)

Quote
and possibly never gave birth to a child at all.

No, she did, medical tests proved it. This is why she was forever trying to come up with explainations for what happened to it. To this day, people are still speculating about the alleged 'rape on the Rus' ::) as a possible way for AA to have been far enough along to have given birth in Dec. 1918 in Bucharest as she stated! We know a child conceived after the execution date would not have been viable by then, so people had to come up with some wild tale to explain it. The real answer is, of course, that since AA was not AN, AN was not pregnant and did not have a baby. That was AA/FS.

Quote
Second, the whole what AA did and didn't know issue is kind of like chasing your tail. If there was something that was known by anyone who survived, that information could have been fed to AA. If on the other hand it was not known to anyone surviving, how would you prove it?

That sums it ALL up. If only it could just end here, now, on this sensible note....... :P
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Jarian on August 17, 2006, 08:07:04 PM
"rape of the rus" did anastasia get pregnant? am i missing a lot things about anastasia? someone help me with this!!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 17, 2006, 08:53:36 PM
Great Annie, you've done a Bear.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 18, 2006, 12:10:00 AM
"rape of the rus" did anastasia get pregnant? am i missing a lot things about anastasia? someone help me with this!!

No. This was discussed at length months ago.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on August 18, 2006, 12:22:19 AM
"rape of the rus" did anastasia get pregnant? am i missing a lot things about anastasia? someone help me with this!!

No. This was discussed at length months ago.

Nor is that premise worthy of further discussion.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2006, 09:01:41 AM
That's right. Move along, nothing to see here. Just someone trying to spice things up and make something out of nothing. No, AN was NOT raped and was NOT pregnant. AA did have a child, but of course AA was not AN.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Jarian on August 19, 2006, 06:32:23 PM
WELL I WASN'T HER MONTHS AGO I'VE ONLY BEEN ON HERE FOR A WEEK.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 08:40:04 PM
Try to use the search function to catch up on  all this. I know sometimes it may not be satisfactory, but it is worth a try.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 20, 2006, 09:41:57 AM
She probably won't find it since it was mostly mentioned in discussion of a particular book, and all reference to the book in question has now been deleted. Bottom line is, AN was not raped and did not have a child. It was all just wild speculation with no basis, and really doesn't deserve any more attention. However, there is a lot of interesting info- some accurate, some not, in these old threads. No matter when you come here, you can still read the old ones to find out what we were talkiing about. If there are any more questions we'll be glad to answer.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on August 20, 2006, 10:57:13 AM
Great Annie, you've done a Bear.


 ;D

----
Maria-fan,

It is difficult for newbies to know what has been written.  And trying to find the old posts is like looking for a needle in the haystack.  In the "search box" you have to place a key word, so,  what would you use?  I really don't know.  Perhaps someone who has time can track the thread down and give us the new URL so the newbies, like Maria-fan,  can find it and others can go back an reread.  AND, if it's a locked thread,  I'm not sure it will be found by using the "search box".   Anyway,  there is some interesting stuff in the old threads.

AGRBear

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 20, 2006, 11:15:36 AM
Just try "rape Rus" and plenty comes up.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 26, 2006, 12:58:56 PM
Crown Princess Cecilie of Germany identified Anna as Anastasia as early as the mid 1920s. And Cecilie continued to communicate with Anna up until her own death. Why was Cecilie's belief in Anna not a more universally accepted point of view? Was Cecilie not considered by her larger group of relatives to be very credible? Also, if Cecilie was so sure Anna was Anastasis, why did she not create a nice home for her and embrace her as a close niece? thanks.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 27, 2006, 10:35:57 PM
Because Cecile wasn't GD Anastasia's aunt, maybe?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2006, 08:54:25 AM
For one thing, Cecile and her husband, the Crown Prince of Germany, were known to have gone a bit eccentric after they lost their title and claim to the throne. I'm sure this hurt their credibility.

But for me the biggest thing is, Cecile was no authority on Anastasia, and never really knew her. Cecile was the daughter of Anastasia Mikhailevna (Sandro's older sister), who was a second cousin to the Tsar. Cecile was born in 1886, and this 15 year age difference shows that she did not grow up hanging out with Anastasia. At 18 (when Anastasia was only 3) she married the Kaiser's son and moved to Germany. After that, what visits she had back to Russia most certainly centered on her own family, not her very young third cousin. Consider too that parties, balls and  fancy dinners generally did not include children under 16, meaning it's not likely she saw much of Anastasia. Then, in 1914, WWI broke out, and Cecile could not return to Russia, which was now 'enemy territory.'  Therefore, the latest she could  possibly have seen Anastaisia- and there is really no evidence they even met- was when Anastaisia was 13. As we all know, a person can change quite a bit between 13 and 17, so even IF she had seen her, she certainly would not have been any kind of credible judge of her years later. So to sum it up nicely, Cecile really didn't know much about Anastasia, and her endorsement really doesn't hold much value.

Think about it, could YOU identify a much younger third cousin you had only seen a few times in passing over the years, many years later after she was grown? How accurate would your memory be? Cecile really didn't know Anastasia and could not accurately identify her one way or the other.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 28, 2006, 09:04:18 AM
Because Cecile wasn't GD Anastasia's aunt, maybe?

is this an answer, moderation, or just another jab?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on August 28, 2006, 09:39:01 AM
and there is really no evidence they even met

While I agree with much of what you say, they did indeed meet. There's a photo someone else posted (where I can't remember) that shows Cecile with other members of the family, including OTMA, on the steps during a review or other ceremony. I don't know if this was the only time they saw each other on her trip, but she did meet her.

Cecile was a pretty kind-hearted woman, perhaps she just felt sorry for Anna Anderson and wanted to believe her? Or maybe she was influenced by her cousin (by marriage) Sigismund of Prussia (Anastasia's first cousin) who was believed in her claim?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 28, 2006, 09:54:12 AM
Because Cecile wasn't GD Anastasia's aunt, maybe?

is this an answer, moderation, or just another jab?

Since I gave no direction, it could not possibly be moderation. I answered one of your questions, which was why Cecile didn't treat the purported GD Anastasia as a niece. My reply was quite appropriate, there was no such relationship between the real GDA and Cecile.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Guinastasia on August 28, 2006, 11:47:37 AM
I agree that she probably just felt very sorry for her.  I think the same was said of Olga A.'s initial enthusiasm-she wanted to believe so much that she ignored her better judgment.

They said Irene of Prussia was so upset about the whole thing that her husband eventually forbade anyone from talking about it around her. 

Cecilie strikes me as someone very sweet but not too bright. 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2006, 08:48:36 PM
While I wasn't sure if they met or not, I wrote my entire post assuming they probably did at some point, but really, they weren't close, she didn't see her often or have anything more than incidental contact at some picnic or something. I still say, Cecile was not anyone to stand as judge on the subject. And also she and her husband were said by some to have become eccentric after losing their title, so maybe she was living in a bit of a fantasy world like AA herself.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: HerrKaiser on August 28, 2006, 09:20:42 PM
thanks everyone for your insights. Even though the crown princess may not have been close to anastasia so that identifying her would have been easy, the fact that Cecilie did make the positive ID led me to the question of why, then, did Cecilie not bring A under her wing and help provide for her? On her thread, Cecilie is talked about at length as being caring, loving, interesting, and sophisticated. It seems if she truly thought Anastasia to be whom she said she was, Cecilie would have taken her in.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 28, 2006, 09:43:06 PM
After reading Cecilie's memoirs, I think she was supercifial and dellusional.She lays it on pretty thick when it comes to the dysfunctional Kaiser & Empress Dona. And her "devotion" to her husband is truely a fantasy, considering what a cad & scoundrel he was.
 I would not take her endorsement as worth anything. I doubt anyone at the time did either.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 01, 2006, 07:16:07 PM
there has always been an unwavering beleif in royal circles of.."one of us"i grant you..yes crown princess cecilie was none to  close to anastasia....does it rule out herheart that she intrinsically felt that aa was indeed her?no.the fact remains why didnt she take herunderher wing?lets not forget thatit justwasnt done in those days..whethershe was anastasia or not..ceciles reputation would have bourn even more criticism..and were forgetting the stubborn nature of aaa herself..and she was indeed quite happy in hersituation..she hadbeen halped bya cousin and it was disastrous i doubt whetheraa would have wanted a repeat performance..she was hard to live with by all accounts and imperious...any wonder i dont think royalty would evr be easy to live with especially if you had once been a member of one of the richest imperial families ruling one of the largest countries in the world..yes people like cecilie didnt need to beleive they just did.and yet again we sit here in the 21 st century all putting our two cents worth....i love however being part of this discussion..everyone hasaviewpoint and thats how it should be.as for cecile..she was german royalty...for that alone and her beleif wa sastounding...royalty did not need to beleive a fake....she was discredited?so many royal members were flaky or slightly touched...she had her reasons to belive..which are jhers alone...i too find it hardthat she didnt take her under her wing....but look at the times and the situation...it was enough she recognised her."aunt irene"would have easily given aa a home..but anastasias willfull personality ruined it....if she was indeed a cleverfraud she would have easily prove dherself to her aunt and lived with her...i digresss..
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 01, 2006, 10:08:23 PM
ok....interesting topic....im having a field day today....firstly...about "feeding"info...aa was tested frequently by servants soldiers etc...things no one possibly knew..intimate and even info that intimates got wrong she even corrected someone and they admitted she was right!!so this continuing theory that she was fed info is amazing ok..in the case of aunt irene..if aa was fed everything she would have behaved properly and fed irene a lot of fed info and proved herself....as far as im concerned aa was suffering badly..as in nerves...and what we call post traumatic idsorder...ok..so she didnt go see..."missy"altho i beleive in aa i do beleive she played games...as anastasia did....which if she wanted to be taken seriouly she would have told it how it was....yes she almost deliberately made it hard...even herdetractors said she had the romanov temperament...here was a princess...damaged frightened yes...and mentally scarred..she didnt do evrything by the book...she as everyone has not botherd to recognise...saw aunt irene at a dinner that irene was testing her...aa ran out crying....and irene followed....she recognised her and pushed herand prodded her like a stranger..now if yr anastasia and rightly proud..being given a victorian upbringing u too would find it hurtful to be treated like taht...she did write to irene apologizing and irene was oh so distraught.....all these ppl suddenly recognizing and then not...9 years since irene saw her.....now thats a long time...herteeth had been taken out and that changes anyone....and from 15 to 20 is a significance...and the bedsheet episode was to  the baroness..who was an intimate.....aa was shocked and dumbfounded by being treated like an oddity....wouldntu too be a little upset at being shouted at"who are you?etc...the baroness did recog=nise aas feet as anastasias.....odd...and no she was nevertipped off....as documented in many books...they even her friends continually tested her...and even tested her with false photos now any faker would have failed....more to chew on..aa did meet irene in her room...irene hadran after herafter a dinner and demanded proof..aaa turned away crying and ashamed....later a friend said do u know that woman?why of course its aunt irene but i dared not turn around ..i was embaresssed.....now its perfectly human.and people make mistakes..if she was trying hard to be recognized she would have fed irene all trivia nad"fed"information and be done with it..she simply was faced with an emotional situation....irene still pushed aa to come stay with her but much to aa.s stubborn nature she refused..all herfriends wondered at aa..temperament and admittedly it did her wrong....but who is to say it was a reaction by a princess..damaged and very scarred by life..another point......she met an uncle of hers..face to face..and he straight away recognizedherso she neverhid from the family..th eincident where she did was when she was uccosted by the former lady im waiting..baroness buxhoevdedn.now being a princess imperial i beleive she would have founda former servant harassing her very painful and degrading...may i add i do not wish to get anyone angry..these are just opinions..cheers
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 01, 2006, 10:13:34 PM
ah  i forgot the pregnant issue..as u can imagine...a virgin and innocent..whatever happened she was traumatised ashamed and embarresed...as a supporter i only wish she told what really happened..but she hadherreasons.....dont forget there could have been brutally raped...what atrocities happened we may never know..yes she loved childrena nd animals....but many women who are raped find it repulsive to endure even the pregnancy..and iff aa was anastasia can u imagine...an innocent then thrust into a brutal shocking incident..pregnant and giving birth...yes she thought irene would dissaprove...i too wish she told what really happpened..plus...her son could possibly be an heir....and in danger....who can say what prompted herstories?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 02, 2006, 02:19:51 AM
Welcome scorpiboy :)

I'm sorry to say, I stopped reading your post about 5 lines in. I'm generalising here, but I wish people would use proper punctuation. I know mines far from perfect but it makes posts more difficult to comprehend in my opinion. :)

Scorpioboy, I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but they did actually do a DNA test which established AA as a fraud! :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 02, 2006, 02:27:31 PM
Right, Eddie! :D

Quote
ok....interesting topic....im having a field day today....firstly...about "feeding"info...aa was tested frequently by servants soldiers etc...things no one possibly knew..intimate and even info that intimates got wrong she even corrected someone and they admitted she was right!!

Who are 'they'? And how did 'they' know? And how do you know 'they' were right and telling the truth? Or that 'they' weren't the ones who fed her the info in the first place? Can you please site incidents and names and details to clarify this generalization which seems to perpetuate as a myth with no basis? Thank you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 02, 2006, 08:14:02 PM
i am indeed corrected..being a newbie i should write better....to answer dna....sorry but it was proven by a german board as inconclusive and indeed.i dont beleive all i read and or hear!asi said im open and hope others may just do that!i am sorry for "they"i will write better in future.as for dna many scientists and theorists and others are questioning its "proof"sorry i f i dont beleive it its just my beleif. i just bring in a different view...and dna in itself has been actually villified in the last few yeras as not infallible.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 02, 2006, 08:15:53 PM
to anyone who is frustrated with my posts i dont blame you....i myself have difficulty reading them..i apologoze.sincerely..
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 02, 2006, 10:58:23 PM
You are entitled to your opinion although I believe you are misinformed about the scientific evidence. Be that as it may, you are off topic. The topic is Princess Irene and AA. Any further divergence from topic will be corrected by either moving or deleting the post(s).
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 04, 2006, 01:08:59 AM
indeed!yesi was on the topic.actually answeringa previous post.frankly t o suggest i am illinformed is not fair.admittedly im not up on all the numerous and infinite tests.ill leave the topic since its so volatile
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 04, 2006, 02:14:10 AM
It's hardly volatile scorpio! You just have to except that  many people won't agree with you :)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 04, 2006, 03:21:34 AM
...and dna in itself has been actually villified in the last few yeras as not infallible.

Really??? Please explain further .... Only please cite published scientific evidence to support your contention in the appropriate thread. Thank you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 04, 2006, 06:25:53 PM
censorship[!wow...so anthing contrary to anyones belifs is automatically dealt with...as for scholarship......ive readposts on many threads that are so ill informed and almost childlike that mine seems the work of a proffessor in english by comparison...this forum as i thought was a free board of discussion....im surprised to find that its so distasteful to all that one site that i found ratherwell researched...why would it not be?when he would risk..beingfound out so wheres the proof hes lying??or ill informed?seems to me..that if people go on the premis ethat any information on aas behalf is bolderdash then how is it justified that the information against her isnt??and yes i am prepared as i am in life to be disagreed with....that is hardly a valid argument..
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 04, 2006, 06:35:59 PM
Because the "author" of that site is a child. He has no education, no credentials, no scholarly ethic and nothing more than a personal axe to grind towit: the total disregard of reality in order to prove an emotional and delusional compelling desire that Anna Anderson was somehow really Grand Duchess Anastasia.

I think the fact you choose to believe a high school child with no training over scientists with decades of experience pretty much sums up your position.

We are totally dedicated to free speech and the open exchange of ideas. However we DO draw the line at deliberate mis-information and distorted allegations being passed off as genuine fact. Caleb's site is the latter, there is no genuine science there.

Now for the final time, you will produce specific scientific published proof of this German "inconclusive" testing or drop it. period. there is no censorship in demanding factual support for your assertions.  If they ARE true, then they are easily proven. If they are NOT true then they have no place here. That is perfectly legitimate, so stop the mud slinging with that childish "censorship" nonsense.

Put your money where your mouth is or speak not.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 04, 2006, 08:38:54 PM
why do u oppose someone clearly stating they "beleive"in fact i did not find the person delusional as they clearly stated they dint beleive either way....perhaps were reading the wrong article...and i do beleive thier is science there..how else do they derive at theirconclusions please do me the hoour of disproving the said article.why are yoy takig such a personal stance?such strong language and why so vehement about a person thats passed away and yes there is fact on the "inconclusive'evidence and please now desist..i do not lik ethis attack and i am NOT mudslinging...to tell me to be scholarly and say i may be suspended!is that not a little strong?ill endeavour to find the said "inconclusive"article..
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 04, 2006, 08:41:26 PM
Not strong at all. This is no "blog" where you can spout off whatever you like. You make a statement alleging it to be fact, so prove it to be fact. Period. If you don't like it, no one forces you to stay here.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: scorpioboy on October 04, 2006, 09:33:39 PM
yes i am aware its not a blog...i assure you as u must be aware many a post made =by people is not entirely factual..some are very innane..and yes i state as "fact"a documentary i saw many years hence i have  tried in vain to find it....alas no...am still looking..perhaps it was wrong..in any case...i do find this whole back and forth strong and to say"if you dont llike it...is surly...no i dont like it at all..like reality..i accept that i will be debated with..and that makes life interesting what i didnt expect is such statements like you have made..i have stated i am not furthering the topic..i do lke the forum and the site immensely...obviously i need to find the said article...apologies to you if i seem to be "spouting"i do find th etopic interesting  and always will...i hope we can be amicable about this from now on
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 10, 2006, 09:01:32 PM
lol i am such an error person when i said her i meant here lol ;D well people would have thought that though

You can edit your posts for a limited time by clicking the little pen and paper icon, or 'modify post'. If you found the error after the time expired, I understand you making another post. Just wanted to tell you in case you didn't know.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: imperial angel on October 27, 2006, 10:55:35 AM
Yes, MF never admitted they were dead, although she surely knew the truth, and had for a long time. She may have wanted just to avoid the issue in a public or private sense, and that denial was one way of doing this. Also, it may have a great way of dealing with grief, as has been pointed out. It may have been a good way of avoiding imposters, many of which she may have even more  been pressed to see had she acknowlegded that her son and his family were dead.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 08:08:08 PM
I think Olga A. always wondered if AA could have been her niece. I know she said later that she always knew AA was a fraud. But it's plain by her initial visit and her later comments to family members that she wasn't 100% sure AA was a fraud. She definately wondered about AA more than any other claimant, and I bet she always wondered because of all the "Anastasia" claimants, "Could AN have survived?" She always said, "We always knew the whole family died in Ekaterinburg" but that was before the bodies and executioner's reports were found so how could she have been sure about that?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on June 12, 2007, 02:45:40 PM
I have seen absolutely NO evidence linking Cecilie to acknowledging Anna Anderson. Yet more unsubstantiated fiction.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 02:14:49 AM
At first Cecile didn't seem to be sure. She said "She didn't even give me a chance."

But she later declared "Today I'm am sure it is she". And the source is "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" for the person above me. It isn't a lie at all.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on June 18, 2007, 08:58:50 AM
Where is the direct source from Cecile. You know something in writing from HER.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 18, 2007, 09:26:15 AM
Cecilie professed total devotion to her father-in-law, the Kaiser[her own memoirs].  Since he allowed the marriage of his own grandson and heir, Louis Ferdinand to the daugter and sister of the Romanov claimants, Kiril & Vladimir, it would be most peculiar of her to support someone they all denied.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on June 18, 2007, 11:34:57 AM
I don't believe it either but if she ever said anything it was because of her eccentricity and must not have been in her right mind. Also as I mentioned before, she had little to no contact with the real Anastasia, so she was so expert on identifying her and not a valid source anyway. She was 15 years older than AN, they didn't grow up together, and she got married and moved to Germany while AN was still a toddler. Since children usually didn't attend fancy dinners and grownup functions, it's unlikey Cecile ever even saw or acknowledged her little second cousin on her infrequent trips to Russia. Then in 1914 the war broke out and she didn't come back. So the latest she could have seen or even glimpsed AN- if she even did- was at age 12-13 so she couldn't accurately ID her as a grownup anyway. Perhaps IF she had known her better, which she didn't! This whole thing is ludicrous.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2007, 01:26:32 PM
I have seen absolutely NO evidence linking Cecilie to acknowledging Anna Anderson. Yet more unsubstantiated fiction.

I think the information was in Peter Kurth's book on Anna Anderson but this isn't really my area--perhaps someone else remembers more? I don't know if it goes so far as to say Cecile did believe or if she was just merely curious about the affair.

Cecilie professed total devotion to her father-in-law, the Kaiser[her own memoirs].  Since he allowed the marriage of his own grandson and heir, Louis Ferdinand to the daugter and sister of the Romanov claimants, Kiril & Vladimir, it would be most peculiar of her to support someone they all denied.

But she was rather pecular, wasn't she? It was late, around 1950-2 I think, that she asked Kira to visit with Anna Anderson. Kira was unconvinced, to say the least.  ::) It was Kira's uncle Andrei who was also a supporter of AA's. These were in Kurth's book. 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on June 18, 2007, 01:48:55 PM
I found this on the thread People Who Believed AA was GD Anastasia, List so it answers some of what I wasn't sure of on my previous post.

[From Lexi4]

Princess Cecilie Robert Massie The Romanovs: The Final Chapter p.168

"Gradually, other members of the former German Imperial family followed. In 1925 Crown Princess Cecilie, the former kaiser's daughter-in-law, called on the claimant. Cecilie was 'struck at first by the young person's resemblance to the tsar's mother and to the tsar himself, but I could see nothing of the tsarina in her." Again, Mrs. Tschaikovsky provided no help. 'It was virtually impossible to communicate with the young person,' Cecilie observed. 'She reamined completely silent, either from obstinacy or because she was totally bewildered.' Subsequently, Crown Princess Cecilie's opinion wavered, as had Princess Irene's. 'I almost believe it must be she,' Cecilie declared. But, as Anastasia's Aunt Irene and her Uncle Ernst of Hesse opposed the claim, Cecilie decided that 'it was not my business to follow up one the question of her identity.' "By 1952, after three subsequent visits to the claimant, the corwn princess had changed her mind. 'Today I am convinced she is the tsar's youngest daughter,' she said. 'I detect her mother's features in her.''
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on June 19, 2007, 11:40:08 AM
I take little, if any, of what Peter Kurth wrote at all seriously. He is a very poor source to quote from. He is so obviously part of the Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia group. He ended up with egg all over his face when the DNA results were released. Most of what he claims is accurate is pure heresay and unverifable when you check his footnotes. Try and catch him interviewed on videi just after the DNA results came out and you see a man trying to defend the indefensible. It is all rather sad. 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: grandduchessella on June 19, 2007, 12:44:12 PM
I was only supplying the reference asked for regarding CPss Cecile. It isn't fiction that she supported the claimant. It was also cited, as I noted above, in Robert Massie's The Final Chapter. I actually have that book--I don't have the Kurth book anymore as I never believed AA was Anastasia. Massie states there was an affidavit from Cecile attesting to her belief in the claimant but which her son, Louis Ferdinand, and daughter-in-law, Kyra, wrote on the bottom (in large pen strokes) that they didn't believe the claim and 'found no resemblance'.  Cecile blew hot & cold on the issue. She first visited in 1925 and was struck by the resemblance. Subsequently, she doubed it but couldn't be sure. Around the time of the conflict with GD Ernst, Cecile decided it was 'not my business to follow up the question'. By 1952, after she'd visited AA 3 more times, she was 'convinced she is the tsar's youngest daughter'. AA sent her a birthday present and the 2 corresponded, with Cecile writing 'God bless you with a tender kiss from your loving Aunt Cecile'. This information is all in Massie's book.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on July 02, 2007, 11:18:55 PM
Yes the more you investigate Anna Anderson the more you realise what a fraud she was. She refused to meet a lot of people who knew the real Anastasia and could not recognise others or answer questions properly. It is all so very obvious. If the German courts believed she had been Anastasia they would have recognised her. They didn't. The DNA proved also after repeated independent testings that she wasn't. The pathetic excuses the pro Anna Anderson camp try to use have all be proved to be a hoax. Nobody escaped the cellar in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg alive, nobody. It was totally impossible. 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on July 08, 2007, 07:04:32 AM
and Louis Ferdinand and Kira were obviously trying to protect their frail mother. It is no credible evidence at all that an elderly lady whose mind wandered supported this fraud. Yet more rubbish from the deluded to try to prop up their ridiculous case. The DNA evidence smashed it all revealing the fraud Anderson was for the whole world to see.           
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on July 29, 2007, 09:07:43 AM
Beginning with The Last Grand Duchess by Vorres, I have always "looked to find a reason to believe". It was hard to accept that the messy little old lady in Virginia was Anastasia Nicholaevna, but the hope that someone had survived was always strong in my heart.

The DNA evidence changed all that.

However, going back to Annie's first post about cousins.  I find it so coincidental that I should read this thread today. 

Just last week on Thursday, July 26, I was at a car dealership.  My husband and I got out of our car just as a very tall but very unkempt man dressed in a t shirt and jeans walked by.  Without paying much attention to him (I truly never see the people around me, but my husband has eagle eyes) my only thought was just how unkempt he was and how he seemed to limp with one shoulder drawn down.

My husband and I began to walk away when we both turned at the same time and realized that the tall unkempt man was my cousin!  I hadn't seen him in probably 20 or 30 years.  We saw each other almost daily when we were teenagers, but grew apart when I was 18 and he was about 16.

My cousin never, and I mean never, goes to family functions.  Not to weddings or family reunions or birthday parties, not even to the party that his sister threw when our mutual aunt turned 80 ten years ago.  Not even to the various funerals that the rest of us have all sadly attended.

But within that few seconds as he walked and limped by me I knew him.  I called out to him and he turned and then recognized me.  (I guess he doesn't see the people around him any more than I usually do.)

Of course he has aged as have I.  He is thinner (he was always a massive guy) and he is now limping and his shoulder is drawn down on the right.  (I didn't ask him what happened, it wasn't the time or the place)

But we knew each other.  So I guess it is not impossible for cousins who have not seen each other in a long time to recognize each other.  But in that moment I understood what Olga Alexandrovna meant about a "connection".  That was what I truly felt.  A pull towards a person who was passing by, a small trigger in my memory, a nudge in the memory banks.  I don't know what it was, but it was there.

Obviously my cousin has had some trauma which has caused him to limp and his shoulder to be drawn down.  Who knows, I still haven't asked him, what happened.  A stroke?  A vehicular accident?  Nothing as life shaking as what would have happened to Anastasia, unless he had served in the military, but I don't think he ever did.

But with all of the differences in his appearance, I still knew him.  And even if he had no memory of me, I would still have known him. 

So I guess what I am saying is that even without the DNA evidence to show that AA was not AN, her relatives shouldn't have had too much trouble identifying her.  I hadn't seen my cousin in 20 or 30 years.  Some of them had seen Anastasia as little as 8 or 10 years previous.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Isabella on July 29, 2007, 11:14:48 AM

However, going back to Annie's first post about cousins.  I find it so coincidental that I should read this thread today. 

Just last week on Thursday, July 26, I was at a car dealership.  My husband and I got out of our car just as a very tall but very unkempt man dressed in a t shirt and jeans walked by.  Without paying much attention to him (I truly never see the people around me, but my husband has eagle eyes) my only thought was just how unkempt he was and how he seemed to limp with one shoulder drawn down.

My husband and I began to walk away when we both turned at the same time and realized that the tall unkempt man was my cousin!  I hadn't seen him in probably 20 or 30 years.  We saw each other almost daily when we were teenagers, but grew apart when I was 18 and he was about 16.

My cousin never, and I mean never, goes to family functions.  Not to weddings or family reunions or birthday parties, not even to the party that his sister threw when our mutual aunt turned 80 ten years ago.  Not even to the various funerals that the rest of us have all sadly attended.

But within that few seconds as he walked and limped by me I knew him.  I called out to him and he turned and then recognized me.  (I guess he doesn't see the people around him any more than I usually do.)

Of course he has aged as have I.  He is thinner (he was always a massive guy) and he is now limping and his shoulder is drawn down on the right.  (I didn't ask him what happened, it wasn't the time or the place)

But we knew each other.  So I guess it is not impossible for cousins who have not seen each other in a long time to recognize each other.  But in that moment I understood what Olga Alexandrovna meant about a "connection".  That was what I truly felt.  A pull towards a person who was passing by, a small trigger in my memory, a nudge in the memory banks.  I don't know what it was, but it was there.

Obviously my cousin has had some trauma which has caused him to limp and his shoulder to be drawn down.  Who knows, I still haven't asked him, what happened.  A stroke?  A vehicular accident?  Nothing as life shaking as what would have happened to Anastasia, unless he had served in the military, but I don't think he ever did.

But with all of the differences in his appearance, I still knew him.  And even if he had no memory of me, I would still have known him. 

So I guess what I am saying is that even without the DNA evidence to show that AA was not AN, her relatives shouldn't have had too much trouble identifying her.  I hadn't seen my cousin in 20 or 30 years.  Some of them had seen Anastasia as little as 8 or 10 years previous.

I'll add my experiences to this - recently, I saw my cousin for the first time in 5 years. I hadn't seen her since I was 8, at the 80th birthday of our Grandma, when she was 18. Now, seeing pictures of her then and now, I would say the only thing that was really changed about her is her hair colour - but she seemed so different to me! I was seeing her from the view point of someone small - she was taller than me, 'grown-up' and I wouldn't have studied her appearance or noticed anything about her [and I think my eyesight probably started going around then]. Now, after all these years, when I first saw her, she seemed almost a different person! I'm now taller than her, she's dyed her [distinctive looking] red hair brown, and I actually paid attention to her features and appearance this time, changing my memory of her. But after a bit, I realised she was obviously the same person, recognisably so.

I know 5 years isn't amazingly long, but it's probably the same time [or a bit less] that the cousins hadn't seen Anastasia in. I'm sure they would have somehow been able to recognise her, even if they hadn't know her well - I don't see my cousins much, as they lives miles away, it takes 5 hours to get there [well, one's moved down to London now recently], and I get carsick - but I still recognised her.

Anyway, I think some of the people who identifyed AA as AN probably had hoped for a survivor so much that their hope probably clouded their judgement.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on July 29, 2007, 10:38:15 PM
I am 45 years old and can still recognize and be recognized by high school classmates though we haven't seen each other for many years. Some cousins I was close to, and saw as young adults, I can recognize, some I hadn't seen since we were children, I can't. I have been to family funerals where the faces seemed strange, only to find out they were cousins after all. I think it has a lot to do with how close you were, how  much you saw of each other, the age you saw them last, and the amount of time spent with them.

In the case of AA, Xenia Leeds, for example, had only seen her a few times as a very young child. Others had seen AN only briefly, and I don't see anyone on the list of those who 'recognized' her (AA) as having close enough contact to be a judge of her one way or the other.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on July 30, 2007, 06:01:53 AM
Yes it is all nonsense. Nobody survived and AA was proven once and all for a fraud when the DNA evidence was revealed. She had absolutely nothing in common with the Romanovs or her mother's family.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 08:42:16 AM
Thought I would start a new topic about the Botkins. Gleb and his sister Tatiana Botkin were the children of Dr.Botkin who died in the same room as Nicholas II, Alexandra Feodorovna and their five children and retainers. For some peculiar reason, Gleb got involved in supporting Anna Anderson even though she wasn't Anastasia. He did make a lot of money out of the pretence from magazine articles and books. Perhaps that was his motive. Later he set up a pagan cult based on the worship of Aphrodite which seemed rather bizarre to say the least.   
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 15, 2007, 09:41:56 AM
Good idea, Dmitri.I know there will be those who will swear they were completely innocent in their acceptance of her, but I am not so sure. There does seem to be a lot to suggest they were the masterminds of her court case, and had a big part in the charade. I don't have time to dig up all my references right now, but I agree with you. We know AA wasn't AN and there has to be an explaination and their involvement is part of it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: G_Lermontov on August 15, 2007, 10:46:38 PM
Part of Dr. Botkin's last letter from Ekaterinburg, July 16, 1918:

Quote
My voluntary confinement here is restricted less by time than by my earthly existence. In essence I am dead -- dead for my children -- dead for my work ... I am dead but not yet buried, or buried alive -- whichever, the consequences are nearly identical ... The day before yesterday, as I was calmly reading ... I saw a reduced vision of my son Yuri's face, but dead, in a horizontal position, his eyes closed. Yesterday, at the same reading, I suddenly heard a word that sounded like Papulya. I nearly burst into sobs. Again -- this is not a hallucination because the word was pronounced, the voice was similar, and I did not doubt for an instant that my daughter, who was supposed to be in Tobolsk, was talking to me ... I will probably never hear that voice so dear or feel that touch so dear with which my little children so spoiled me ... If faith without works is dead, then deeds can live without faith ... This vindicates my last decision ... when I unhesitatingly orphaned my own children in order to carry out my physician's duty to the end, as Abraham did not hesitate at God's demand to sacrifice his only son.

As I read this, I wonder if Dr. Botkin's children ever harbored any animosity towards the Imperial Family because of the death of their father.  I don't mean anything especially vindictive or malevolent, just a feeling that they were abandoned by their father in favor of the Romanovs.  Dr. Botkin didn't have to die; he could have left Tsarskoe Selo or Tobolsk a free man and returned to his family.  His great sense of loyalty and duty prevented this from happening.  Perhaps the Botkin children looked upon Anna Anderson as a way of getting back some of what they lost due to the collapse of the regime.  These people lost everything, and what would it hurt to try and get some of that back?  The Imperial Family was dead, and their father died in their service.  Maybe they thought, perhaps justifiably, that they deserved something for their great losses.


Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 16, 2007, 12:35:08 AM
Part of Dr. Botkin's last letter from Ekaterinburg, July 16, 1918:

Quote
My voluntary confinement here is restricted less by time than by my earthly existence. In essence I am dead -- dead for my children -- dead for my work ... I am dead but not yet buried, or buried alive -- whichever, the consequences are nearly identical ... The day before yesterday, as I was calmly reading ... I saw a reduced vision of my son Yuri's face, but dead, in a horizontal position, his eyes closed. Yesterday, at the same reading, I suddenly heard a word that sounded like Papulya. I nearly burst into sobs. Again -- this is not a hallucination because the word was pronounced, the voice was similar, and I did not doubt for an instant that my daughter, who was supposed to be in Tobolsk, was talking to me ... I will probably never hear that voice so dear or feel that touch so dear with which my little children so spoiled me ... If faith without works is dead, then deeds can live without faith ... This vindicates my last decision ... when I unhesitatingly orphaned my own children in order to carry out my physician's duty to the end, as Abraham did not hesitate at God's demand to sacrifice his only son.

As I read this, I wonder if Dr. Botkin's children ever harbored any animosity towards the Imperial Family because of the death of their father.  I don't mean anything especially vindictive or malevolent, just a feeling that they were abandoned by their father in favor of the Romanovs.  Dr. Botkin didn't have to die; he could have left Tsarskoe Selo or Tobolsk a free man and returned to his family.  His great sense of loyalty and duty prevented this from happening.  Perhaps the Botkin children looked upon Anna Anderson as a way of getting back some of what they lost due to the collapse of the regime.  These people lost everything, and what would it hurt to try and get some of that back?  The Imperial Family was dead, and their father died in their service.  Maybe they thought, perhaps justifiably, that they deserved something for their great losses.




I am distressed about the disrespect shown to the Botkin family by some of the other posters here. Dr. Botkin gave his life for the Imperial Family. For that reason alone, one would think that certain latitude would be given to his children. No such luck with this group, I guess. There are apparently many people who post here who feel it is acceptable to trash everyone associated with Anna Anderson simply because she was not Anastasia.

I have several times outlined a plausible explanation for Tatiana and Gleb to mistake AA for ANR.  In case anyone is interested, losing one's father is one of life's most difficult trials. I lost mine two years ago this month, and it's still tough for me. For Tatiana and Gleb, who lack the comforts & relative security  I enjoy, it must have been excrutiating. I've often thought, maybe they needed to believe in her so that their father's sacrifice would have seemed to result in one of the girls' surviving?

I must say perhaps this part of the Forum might be better served by someone who will join in with the verbal target practice that some of you appear to enjoy. With our policy allowing this type of thing, I must say that my years moderating "Survivors" may need to come to an end - I really have no stomach for treating people associated with AA so shabbily.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 05:58:29 AM
I have been hesitant to start a thread on this, and even afraid to answer it after Dmitri did, because I knew you (Lisa) felt this way about it. I know some of you here know the Schweitzers, and they are very nice people and perhaps you are wanting to protect a glowing memory of Gleb so that they won't have to be upset or embarrassed. But we can never ever get to the bottom of how AA pulled off her charade if we aren't able to explore and examine and speculate on Gleb's involvement and some of the things he did. The rude almost threatening letters to Xenia and Olga, Grandanor corporation, being the mastermind of the lawsuit, and several ficticious publications on AA cannot convince me the Botkins were just some poor kids who who fell for AA because they were sad over their Daddy. I'm sorry about your Dad, Lisa, I really am, I lost mine too, and in a terrible way. We were very close and he was in a horrific car crash while he was on his way to visit me. I have been deeply hurt, disturbed and guilt ridden over it for years. (I don't like admitting personal issues like this online because they usually draw very cruel PMs from my enemies, it's happened before) I'm sorry for what happened to their father, but I don't think it excuses the things that possibly happened in the AA case. If you remember in the letter Gleb sent to Xenia and Olga, soon after their own mother's death (after already having suffered the death of their father and brother George young, and the murders of their brothers Nicky and Mischa) that told them what they were doing to poor AA (allegedly lying and denying her identity as "Anastasia") paled in comparison to what happened to his father!

Your Imperial Highness!
Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Higness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.


So maybe that shows maybe he wasn't quite as upset over his Dad as he was devoted to AA's case. I'd never degrade the death of a relative by using it in such an unscrupulous context, a hurtful lie to possibly defraud someone out of money. Imagine the pain Olga and Xenia must have felt being so cruelly treated so soon after their mother's death. (I can understand this, too, since I was treated rather heartlessly by some after my mother passed, and over money, too) I have never been able to understand (unless it's the respect for the Schweitzers) the reason that the Botkins are so protected from speculation here while the Queen of England, Dr. Gill, the DNA labs, Martha Jefferson Hospital, Olga and Xenia, Ernie, Gilliard, and others are openly and shamelessly accused of lying, fraud, tampering, and conspiracies by AA's supporters. Talk about being treated 'shabbily!' (and not to mention the way some of us who refute AA have been treated 'shabbily' by some AA supporters!) If the case is to be cracked, we must investigate all suspects, and we can't let the pity card silence important parts of the story.

Let us know now, if we are not free to discuss and explore this subject, if the topic is to be censored completely or toned down to the point of ineffectiveness to the investigation, let us know now and close or just delete the thread before any more time is invested into the research and discussion. Thank you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 16, 2007, 07:22:13 AM

I am distressed about the disrespect shown to the Botkin family by some of the other posters here. Dr. Botkin gave his life for the Imperial Family. For that reason alone, one would think that certain latitude would be given to his children. No such luck with this group, I guess. There are apparently many people who post here who feel it is acceptable to trash everyone associated with Anna Anderson simply because she was not Anastasia.

I have several times outlined a plausible explanation for Tatiana and Gleb to mistake AA for ANR.  In case anyone is interested, losing one's father is one of life's most difficult trials. I lost mine two years ago this month, and it's still tough for me. For Tatiana and Gleb, who lack the comforts & relative security  I enjoy, it must have been excrutiating. I've often thought, maybe they needed to believe in her so that their father's sacrifice would have seemed to result in one of the girls' surviving?

I must say perhaps this part of the Forum might be better served by someone who will join in with the verbal target practice that some of you appear to enjoy. With our policy allowing this type of thing, I must say that my years moderating "Survivors" may need to come to an end - I really have no stomach for treating people associated with AA so shabbily.


Lisa, thank you posting that.  I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me (obviously I wouldn't be on this board if I did, since I am patently pursuing a minority viewpoint !) and I enjoy a good debate - but I do have a big problem with the constant trashing of people associated with AA and indeed the vitriol towards a woman who, if she was FS, was simply mentally unwell.   Certain people seem to take her claim to Anastasia's identity as a personal affront, whichI find rather absurd .

It is quite possible  (to quote Annie) "to explore and examine and speculate" without the level of nastiness expressed by some people on this board.  That is not the same as censorship, nor does it make an "investigation" ineffective. 

Incidentally, my comments apply to both sides of the debate.  Personally I do have a low opinion of Gilliard, for example,  but  I do not  feel the need to make nasty comments on this board about him.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 08:26:40 AM


 Certain people seem to take her claim to Anastasia's identity as a personal affront, whichI find rather absurd.

I have never seen anyone do that, but I have seen plenty of AA supporters take some kind of personal offense that if their 'opinion' of AA=AN has been critcized, it's somehow personally offensive to them! I have also seen outright ridiculous claims that people who don't believe in AA want Anastasia to be dead! (this accusation is usually aimed at those who believe the family to be Holy Martyrs) This is absurd, NOBODY would rather believe AN dead, everyone would rather she escaped, and no one 'resented' AA because she spoiled this view of the family who all died together. (we don't accept AA because we really, REALLY don't believe AA was AN!) Yet I see these unbelievable assumptions told as if fact! The vicious attacks on those who oppose AA by AA supporters, especially one, have been disgraceful (and more goes on in PMs than you ever saw on the board, and remember some of what was on the board is now deleted) So making AA and her supporters out to be innocent victims certainly is not reasonable or accurate.

Quote
It is quite possible  (to quote Annie) "to explore and examine and speculate" without the level of nastiness expressed by some people on this board.  That is not the same as censorship, nor does it make an "investigation" ineffective.

I really don't think in the case of the Botkins it is. I have tried to be as careful and considerate as I could about it, even adding disclaimers like 'it seems' and 'possibly' but it's never good enough. If you even insinuate the Botkins were anything but innocent angels, Lisa is going to take issue with the post, and AA supporters are going to bash it. This is why I need to know right now if we are going to be unable or not allowed to continue this discussion in the direction it needs to be honestly explored (which may make the Botkins look not so innocent)

Quote
Incidentally, my comments apply to both sides of the debate.  Personally I do have a low opinion of Gilliard, for example,  but  I do not  feel the need to make nasty comments on this board about him.



Thank you for admitting that, there are some who wouldn't. I think we have both been as honest and kind about this as we possibly can be, though we stand in very different positions. I await Lisa's verdict.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 16, 2007, 08:28:53 AM
I am sorry Lisa about your situation. I have lost both parents so I have empathy for you and also Annie. As for the Botkins they represent many unanswered questions that although possibly uncomfortable are justified in being asked. The Botkins certainly had no problem whatsoever in casting doubt on the surviving members of the imperial family. In fact Gleb Botkin was quite offensive in his criticisms. That hurt caused is on public record. I can understand the Schweitzers being upset at the revelation through DNA testing, that they requested, that Anna Anderson was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. That must have come as a terrible shock. That however is the truth. It has been proved beyond doubt. What remains unanswered is why the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana, got so involved with all of this. Certainly Gleb did gain financially. Books and articles bring in money. One wonders having lost their father why they could have possibly imagined it was possible for Anastasia to escape the same room when their father was obviously not able to? One wonders how it could at all be possible for Anastasia to escape being murdered when Dr.Botkin was murdered by the executioners. They certainly were very efficient in their sheer brutality. The answer it would seem is that nobody escaped. It is not unreasonable for historians to believe that the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana were involved in some sort of mischief. Matters tend to be made clear with the passage of time. People have backed the wrong horse throughout history for whatever reason. It is worth investigating the reasons why the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana, decided to back the wrong horse.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 10:39:08 AM
I just noticed an error in my above post (too late to edit) containing the letter, it says

told them what they were doing to poor AA (allegedly lying and denying her identity as "Anastasia") paled in comparison to what happened to his father!

but should have read that what happened to his father paled in comparison to their denial of AA (as it is worded in the letter, that is what he said)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 16, 2007, 10:44:11 AM
I have been hesitant to start a thread on this, and even afraid to answer it after Dmitri did, because I knew you (Lisa) felt this way about it. I know some of you here know the Schweitzers, and they are very nice people and perhaps you are wanting to protect a glowing memory of Gleb so that they won't have to be upset or embarrassed. But we can never ever get to the to Xenia and Olga, soon after their own mother's death (after already having suffered the death of their father and brother George young, and the murders of their brothers Nicky and Mischa) that told them what they were doing to poor AA (allegedly lying and denying her identity as "Anastasia") paled in comparison to what happened to his father!

Your Imperial Highness!
Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Higness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.


So maybe that shows maybe he wasn't quite as upset over his Dad as he was devoted to AA's case. I'd never degrade the death of a relative by using it in such an unscrupulous context, a hurtful lie to possibly defraud someone out of money. Imagine the pain Olga and Xenia must have felt being so cruelly treated so soon after their mother's death. (I can understand this, too, since I was treated rather heartlessly by some after my mother passed, and over money, too) I have never been able to understand (unless it's the respect for the Schweitzers) the reason that the Botkins are so protected from speculation here while the Queen of England, Dr. Gill, the DNA labs, Martha Jefferson Hospital, Olga and Xenia, Ernie, Gilliard, and others are openly and shamelessly accused of lying, fraud, tampering, and conspiracies by AA's supporters. Talk about being treated 'shabbily!' (and not to mention the way some of us who refute AA have been treated 'shabbily' by some AA supporters!) If the case is to be cracked, we must investigate all suspects, and we can't let the pity card silence important parts of the story.

Let us know now, if we are not free to discuss and explore this subject, if the topic is to be censored completely or toned down to the point of ineffectiveness to the investigation, let us know now and close or just delete the thread before any more time is invested into the research and discussion. Thank you.

I am so very sorry for your loss, Annie, and I can relate in a way perhaps few can. I was on my way to see my dad when he died. I was literally moments away, and I wish I would not have stopped to have lunch with my mom (even though Dad thought I should) because otherwise, I could have seen him one last time. It's almost a compound grief that way.

This group is entirely welcome to discuss and explore this subject (or any other). I think it should be discussed. I am, by means of my academic background, an historian. No one would love a debate about a point of history more than me. I just don't see that debate or discussion seemed to be happening here. It did not start out with questions - why did the Botkins think AA was Anastasia? What were their motives?

That would have been a matter of discussion and I would love it if we could do that. It didn't start that way - it started out with judgement (they were guilty of fraud and opportunism). And then it got worse. Finally someone stepped in with an idea that could have merit (maybe they felt entitled). But, then I thought, the way discussions have been going here, there is such an absence of any objectivity, it's just an exercise in trashing everyone involved with AA.

I have to run to work now, but I need to clear up something about Marina Schweitzer. Don't know her, never met or talked to her. I do admire the fact that she spent her own money so that we could objectively find out the truth about AA. Due to her generousity of spirit (her aloha), now a group I moderate is going to trash her father. Can you see how this is uncomfortable for me? Without her, we would lack this evidence.

My verdict is immaterial - I will do as I am asked to do because long ago, I promised Bob I would do whatever was asked of me here. I just wondered how someone who wants balance, objectivity and maybe a little kindness and compassion for others was going to be able to be an effective moderator of this thread.

I await your verdict - this is your forum. Wouldn't you have more fun with someone who did not insist on objectivity and all the other things I advocate? I don't think I'm so much fun.

More later.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 16, 2007, 10:46:47 AM

I am distressed about the disrespect shown to the Botkin family by some of the other posters here. Dr. Botkin gave his life for the Imperial Family. For that reason alone, one would think that certain latitude would be given to his children. No such luck with this group, I guess. There are apparently many people who post here who feel it is acceptable to trash everyone associated with Anna Anderson simply because she was not Anastasia.

I have several times outlined a plausible explanation for Tatiana and Gleb to mistake AA for ANR.  In case anyone is interested, losing one's father is one of life's most difficult trials. I lost mine two years ago this month, and it's still tough for me. For Tatiana and Gleb, who lack the comforts & relative security  I enjoy, it must have been excrutiating. I've often thought, maybe they needed to believe in her so that their father's sacrifice would have seemed to result in one of the girls' surviving?

I must say perhaps this part of the Forum might be better served by someone who will join in with the verbal target practice that some of you appear to enjoy. With our policy allowing this type of thing, I must say that my years moderating "Survivors" may need to come to an end - I really have no stomach for treating people associated with AA so shabbily.


Lisa, thank you posting that.  I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me (obviously I wouldn't be on this board if I did, since I am patently pursuing a minority viewpoint !) and I enjoy a good debate - but I do have a big problem with the constant trashing of people associated with AA and indeed the vitriol towards a woman who, if she was FS, was simply mentally unwell.   Certain people seem to take her claim to Anastasia's identity as a personal affront, whichI find rather absurd .

It is quite possible  (to quote Annie) "to explore and examine and speculate" without the level of nastiness expressed by some people on this board.  That is not the same as censorship, nor does it make an "investigation" ineffective. 

Incidentally, my comments apply to both sides of the debate.  Personally I do have a low opinion of Gilliard, for example,  but  I do not  feel the need to make nasty comments on this board about him.



I agree with you 100% and you are my newest favorite poster. Brava!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 16, 2007, 10:55:59 AM
I guess for the Romanov family it was a personal affront for somebody who was not a member of their family to have the temerity to impersonate a dead relative. As for the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana, the real question remains is how well did they know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia at all? They claim to have known her well whereas others imply that they hardly knew her at all in the way that close relations did. It is all open to speculation and investigation. There are a lot of unanswered questions. Certainly hardly anybody would have heard of Gleb Botkin if he had not become involved with Anna Anderson and written articles and books about her and also openly insulted members of the Romanov family.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 11:01:07 AM
I guess for the Romanov family it was a personal affront for somebody who was not a member of their family to have the temerity to impersonate a dead relative. As for the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana, the real question remains is how well did they know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia at all? They claim to have known her well whereas others imply that they hardly knew her at all in the way that close relations did. It is all open to speculation and investigation. There are a lot of unanswered questions. Certainly hardly anybody would have heard of Gleb Botkin if he had not become involved with Anna Anderson and written articles and books about her and also openly insulted members of the Romanov family.

This is what seems so unfair to me, he was able to trash and attack the reputation of whomever he chose, as AA supporters still do, yet Gleb gets to be insulated from any questions surrounding his activities with AA. This is wrong, an injustice to those he trashed, and a disservice to truth in history if he's 'off limits' to explore in a possibly negative way.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 16, 2007, 11:03:46 AM
 
I am so very sorry for your loss, Annie, and I can relate in a way perhaps few can. I was on my way to see my dad when he died. I was literally moments away, and I wish I would not have stopped to have lunch with my mom (even though Dad thought I should) because otherwise, I could have seen him one last time. It's almost a compound grief that way.

This is really off topic  but I think that whenever someone we love dies, we feel guilty even if there is no real need.  Both my parents are also gone (is this a forum of "orphans"?) and when my mother died I was on my way to visit her in hospital 200 miles from my home.  I should have gone up the day before but I had work so didn't.  I knew she was ill but maybe didn't want to admit how ill.  I felt guilty for a long time but then realised that my feelings were all about me.  She knew I was on my way and was looking forward to seeing me -  It was ME who needed to have seen her that once more.  Everyone I know who has lost a loved one has those same feelings about guilt, albeit for different reasons - a missed opportunity, an argument, whatever.  We wouldn't be human if we didn't.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 16, 2007, 11:05:12 AM
I agree with you 100% and you are my newest favorite poster. Brava!

Aw shucks.  Now I am hideously embarrassed!  (But thank you!)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 16, 2007, 11:07:31 AM
I guess for the Romanov family it was a personal affront for somebody who was not a member of their family to have the temerity to impersonate a dead relative. As for the Botkins, Gleb and Tatiana, the real question remains is how well did they know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia at all? They claim to have known her well whereas others imply that they hardly knew her at all in the way that close relations did. It is all open to speculation and investigation. There are a lot of unanswered questions. Certainly hardly anybody would have heard of Gleb Botkin if he had not become involved with Anna Anderson and written articles and books about her and also openly insulted members of the Romanov family.

This is what seems so unfair to me, he was able to trash and attack the reputation of whomever he chose, as AA supporters still do, yet Gleb gets to be insulated from any questions surrounding his activities with AA. This is wrong, an injustice to those he trashed, and a disservice to truth in history if he's 'off limits' to explore in a possibly negative way.
Yes it sure is knowing that the AA suporters will continue to claim that AA is A as Botkin did his beliefs probaly convinced the AA suporters that AA is A that is why they are using the so call facts they claim they have. I realy think that the Botkins did not know Anastasia that well becuase if they so call did then they would not have claimed AA to be A. It is so sad about what happen you Dmitri and Lisa I feel sorry for you I know also how you feel.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 11:10:10 AM

I am so very sorry for your loss, Annie, and I can relate in a way perhaps few can. I was on my way to see my dad when he died. I was literally moments away, and I wish I would not have stopped to have lunch with my mom (even though Dad thought I should) because otherwise, I could have seen him one last time. It's almost a compound grief that way.

I am truly very sorry for you, I understand exactly what you mean. Everyone left my Grandmother and went to breakfast and came back to the hospital and she was gone, leaving no chance for goodbyes. Very sad.


Quote
That would have been a matter of discussion and I would love it if we could do that. It didn't start that way - it started out with judgement (they were guilty of fraud and opportunism). And then it got worse. Finally someone stepped in with an idea that could have merit (maybe they felt entitled). But, then I thought, the way discussions have been going here, there is such an absence of any objectivity, it's just an exercise in trashing everyone involved with AA.

Why is it never a problem when AA supporters trash anyone opposing AA? That's what I can't understand. The sad fact is, since AA was NOT AN, we know that she was a fraud. Because of this, we know which 'side' was mistaken,or even lying. There is no way I can accept that everyone behind her claim was innocent and honest. To get to the truth behind this very fraudlent false claim, we must examine the players. The Botkins were very big players and that cannot be denied or avoided, and we cannot simply pretend their motives were completely saintly so somebody won't have to feel bad. He sure didn't mind making Romanov relatives feel bad.

Quote
I have to run to work now, but I need to clear up something about Marina Schweitzer. Don't know her, never met or talked to her. I do admire the fact that she spent her own money so that we could objectively find out the truth about AA. Due to her generousity of spirit (her aloha), now a group I moderate is going to trash her father. Can you see how this is uncomfortable for me? Without her, we would lack this evidence.

My verdict is immaterial - I will do as I am asked to do because long ago, I promised Bob I would do whatever was asked of me here. I just wondered how someone who wants balance, objectivity and maybe a little kindness and compassion for others was going to be able to be an effective moderator of this thread.

I await your verdict - this is your forum. Wouldn't you have more fun with someone who did not insist on objectivity and all the other things I advocate? I don't think I'm so much fun.

More later.

I can understsand how you feel, but letting this one possible suspect completely off the hook because of your own personal feelings about one person really isn't fair to everyone else who has been 'trashed' in this debate. You have already let your feelings be publically known, so can't the rest of us continue with your 'disclaimer' of no approval?  If not, we will not be able to examine the things we need to in the ways we need to. Unless we are allowed by another moderator to do so, the thread might as well be locked or deleted, and we must give up on solving the mystery behind the charade on this forum, because that CANNOT be done without questioning his role and motives.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 11:18:13 AM

 I realy think that the Botkins did not know Anastasia that well becuase if they so call did then they would not have claimed AA to be A.

Some people suspect that they did know it wasn't her, but helped her claim anyway for other reasons (fame and financial gain). That's what all the controversy is about. John Godl's article you posted recently has a lot in there on the topic.

I won't post in this thread again until we get word on if this subject is going to be officially taboo.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 16, 2007, 11:33:33 AM
I think it is quite a valid question to ask how well did the Botkins really know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia? They certainly did not know her as well as any member of the close Romanov family. Some have claimed the Botkin children, Gleb and Tatiana have terribly over stated their association.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 16, 2007, 11:37:33 AM
[This is what seems so unfair to me, he was able to trash and attack the reputation of whomever he chose, as AA supporters still do, yet Gleb gets to be insulated from any questions surrounding his activities with AA. This is wrong, an injustice to those he trashed, and a disservice to truth in history if he's 'off limits' to explore in a possibly negative way.

I don't think it's off limits to explore your feelings that his motives were questionable, even though obviously I disagree with you about that.   I just think that there have been a number of unnecessary comments by  posters on various threads, and not just recently.     As I have  said before, this should apply to both sides of the argument but to be honest Annie, I don't think there are that many pro-AA people on here any more  (stating the obvious!) and therefore that means there are going to be more posts of the type that Lisa has mentioned.    I see no reason why people can't  think about how they are phrasing their views before posting.  For example, if AA really was FS and mentally unstable, she should be pitied not derided, but I have seen quite a few posters making really unkind comments about her mental health.  If she was ill, she couldn't help it.    That doesn't take away from the fact that you believe she was not Anastasia.

We all know my position on this subject generally but I think that Gleb and Tatiana really believed AA was who she said she was and that is why he was so passionate and reckless in his comments.    There doesn't seem anything calculating about his outbursts - he must have known that they could be interpreted as being libellous.  Of course generally speaking that family (and I include the whole extended family, including the Windsors and all the rest) wouldn't lower themselves to sue someone for libel but  I don't think he would have been so rash if it was a contrived plot.  

As to how well they really knew them, like so much about this case the evidence is conflicting.  I have read that they were not "intimate playmates " of the children, but  they spent a lot of time with their father and he spent a lot of time with the Imperial Family.  And of course they were in Tobolsk.  So, who knows?

Incidentally, I would like to say that I think this thread - and indeed all threads - needs a moderator who can take an objective standpoint.  Otherwise there can't be a proper debate, it will just become a bunch of posts saying "I agree with you" and "gosh you are absolutely right".  



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 11:38:47 AM
I think it is quite a valid question to ask how well did the Botkins really know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia? They certainly did not know her as well as any member of the close Romanov family. Some have claimed the Botkin children, Gleb and Tatiana have terribly over stated their association.

I know I said I wouldn't post again, but I forgot to say that I do think they knew her well enough to identify her and would surely have known if it was her or not. To say they didn't know her that well would be a way to get them 'off the hook', but to accept that they did know them well enough to know better would make it more likely they were helping a known fraud. There is also a distinct possibility they were helping her with her 'memories', they'd have had intimate though limited knowledge of the family and their surrondings.(remember AA refused to go to the Leuctenberg's unless Tatiana Botkin accompanied her, perhaps she needed her reference source for the palace questions and was afraid of being caught without a helper/feeder of info? Just a thought) Part of making a case for them being behind the charade would hinge on whether or not they knew AN well enough to ID her. I think they did.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 16, 2007, 11:56:39 AM
Well, lets try to look at it as objectively as possible. Any way you look at it, it would be one of these possibilities:

1. The Botkins knew the imperial children, including Anastasia, as well as they claimed, which theoretically should mean they would have known that AA was not Anastasia, which would in turn would mean that they were in on the scam/delusion/fraud/whatever.

2. They exaggerated their intimate knowledge of the imperial children, including Anastasia, and because of that were taken in by AA, and truly believed that AA was Anastasia.

3. They knew Anastasia as well as they claimed, but were not very sharp, and were still taken in by AA.

4. They exaggerated knowing Anastasia well, but still recognized AA as a fraud, however decided to go along with her for whatever reason.

Any other possibilites that I may have missed?

We can take it from here.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 02:04:06 PM
I think Helen has summed up the basic possibilities here.

Here is my final say on the subject.   The basic premise raised at first, seems to have already found the Botkins "guilty" before the subject was discussed. That is what upset Lisa.  So, I'm locking THIS thread, but started a new one over, called "The Relationship between the Botkins and Anna Anderson", which is really what I think should be discussed, OK?  Let's not find anyone "guilty" beforehand, and examine all aspects of the question, before reaching conclusions.

I think this should satisfy all parties.

Annie: Just drop whatever the "AA supporters" do or say, just because they sling mud or act like children does not give you free reign to do the same.  Don't be the same as they are, be BETTER than they are.

A reminder to all:  Please remember that writing on the internet should be read AS IF you were speaking to the people involved face to face.  If you would never dare to say it to their face in person, you ought not write it on the internet.  People often feel safer hiding behind the anonymity of the web, and will say things here they would never dream of saying to a live person.  ok? and that's straight from Bob Atchison...

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 02:04:59 PM
Well, lets try to look at it as objectively as possible. Any way you look at it, it would be one of these possibilities:

1. The Botkins knew the imperial children, including Anastasia, as well as they claimed, which theoretically should mean they would have known that AA was not Anastasia, which would in turn would mean that they were in on the scam/delusion/fraud/whatever.

2. They exaggerated their intimate knowledge of the imperial children, including Anastasia, and because of that were taken in by AA, and truly believed that AA was Anastasia.

3. They knew Anastasia as well as they claimed, but were not very sharp, and were still taken in by AA.

4. They exaggerated knowing Anastasia well, but still recognized AA as a fraud, however decided to go along with her for whatever reason.

Any other possibilites that I may have missed?

We can take it from here.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: bonbon823 on August 16, 2007, 05:41:39 PM
Perhaps their heads told them this was not Anastasia, yet their hearts wanted to believe it was she.  I would think I would hope against hope that it would be her, even if the deck was stacked against her, because as it is said, "the heart has its reasons"...

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 05:49:59 PM
As a surprise to no one, I am going with #1. I am afraid to say why, so without going into detail I will list my reasons for believing this:

1. Gleb instigated the court case and hired Fallows.
2. Gleb started Grandanor corporation with Fallows (a corp. selling shares to pay off should AA win her claim)
3. Gleb trashed Olga and Xenia in very hurtful letters accusing them of denying AA for money.
4. Gleb and Tatiana both wrote and profited from books and/or articles about AA.
5. AA would not go to the Leuchtenberg's unless Tatiana came along. I believe this was because she needed her to be her 'Cyrano' for her memories if questioned.
6. The Botkin kids had limited intimate knowledge of the family and their surroundings. AA's 'memories' were intimate though limited, sometimes on target sometimes wrong. Sounds like they came from someone who 'knew a little'. Like the song goes, "I know a little and baby we can fake the rest." (I don't think they were the first or only feeders, but significant ones)
7. We know for a fact because of DNA that AA wasn't AN so we know for sure she was faking and someone had to have helped her. They are IMO the GLARING and OBVIOUS main suspects (John Godl thinks so too, though I had the opinion long before I saw his article)

I know there are those who would rather believe they were sweet, saintly, devoted friends who were only doing what they thought was best for her and truly believed her. That sounds a lot nicer, but I can't deny logic and believe it. SOMEBODY HAD to have helped her. They were so heavily involved in the case, there is NO WAY anything shady could have gone on without them knowing about it. Even IF AA had others sneaking her the info they would have known. Too much happened. There is no way I can accept they were innocent of helping with the deliberate charade. (nice way of saying 'fraudulent claim' with the goal of defrauding money from the family under false pretenses.)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 06:25:45 PM
Annie,

Don't feel afraid to explain yourself, so long as you back up your conclusions with genuine verifiable evidence.  There is always one other possiblility, and sadly a real one, yes we know that AA was not AN, BUT, maybe, just maybe, she actually believed it.  There is a disorder, called sociopathy, where people do not understand the fundemental difference between right and wrong, they have no moral aversion to hurting others and they genuinely believe the lies they tell others at the time they tell them.  Its kind of scary actually, they have given sociopaths lie detecter tests which show that the sociopath genuinely believes the bald face lies they are telling.  I've met two sociopaths in my life, and they are wholly convincing at first and will go to the grave before admitting they lied, even when shown cold stone proof of their lies. Scary people actually.

Don't be so quick or harsh to judge AA, she may just well have believed what she said, even if not the truth.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 06:30:22 PM
I was one who always said that AA was mentally ill and did come to believe she was Anastasia. I still believe that, but now I don't think it happened until she was old and senile. The more I read of Kurth's and Lovell's and Massie's books, the more I get the idea she knew exactly who she was and what she was doing for a lot longer than I had thought before. I do however think she was not savvy enough to pull of the claim and court case alone, that's why I am sure she had help. My main suspect, Gleb, had a very brilliant and creative mind and was writing stories and inventing characters at a very young age. This is a compliment to him, but also because of this ability it makes him even more capable IMO of masterminding the charade. Even though he came in later, it never really took off- or tried for real financial gain- or went to court- until he became involved. I also think maybe HE as he got older and into Aphrodite and all that came to believe she was really AN, and I am sure Manahan believed it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 06:31:34 PM
Annie,

All well and good, but these are conclusions. The whole point of this thread is to produce the specific evidence to support such conclusions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 06:42:42 PM
There will NEVER be evidence. People don't leave paper trails of fraud. You're not going to find a diary entry 'June 15 today I fed AA memories!' All we have is logical deduction. Many lawyers win many court cases on just that, setting up a very likely scenario and getting the majority of the jury to buy it. That's all I can do, put the reasoning  out there and see if it makes sense as it does to me (and John Godl) You're never going to find a document admitting to fraud, but that shouldn't mean everyone is innocent. The FACT is AA is NOT AN therefore SOMEBODY helped her fake it. I can present my case against Gleb, if anyone else has a better suspect, I'd like to see it. It appears what we have here is a case of the 'real killer' in the OJ trial. Nobody can PROVE OJ did it though most people think he did, and no one has ever been able to come up with a different or more likely suspect, so he remains the main one. That's how I feel about Gleb and the charade.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 09:22:12 PM
Annie,

Your position pre-supposes some evil intent to "fake" AA as AN, with, as they say in court, "malice aforethought".  Please bring your evidence to support this. Mere supposition is not enough in a court of law, there must be genuine evidence.  I'm not saying Gleb B. had to write in his diary that "today we pulled the wool over their eyes, the idiots bought her as beinng AN." BUT, you DO have to bring in something to support the supposition.  Like the Soloviev discussion, we have the extrinsic evidence to show he WAS a Bolshevik agent, even though he himself never admitted as such.

I'm sorry but you're just going to have to do better than that. In order for some sort of "logical deduction" you MUST provide "A" "B" "C" etc and construct the proof to end up at your deduction.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 09:26:30 PM
Annie,

Your position pre-supposes some evil intent to "fake" AA as AN, with, as they say in court, "malice aforethought".  Please bring your evidence to support this. Mere supposition is not enough in a court of law, there must be genuine evidence.  I'm not saying Gleb B. had to write in his diary that "today we pulled the wool over their eyes, the idiots bought her as beinng AN." BUT, you DO have to bring in something to support the supposition.  Like the Soloviev discussion, we have the extrinsic evidence to show he WAS a Bolshevik agent, even though he himself never admitted as such.

I'm sorry but you're just going to have to do better than that. In order for some sort of "logical deduction" you MUST provide "A" "B" "C" etc and construct the proof to end up at your deduction.

I do feel there is enough on him to strongly suspicion him. See my list above. As far as proof there will NEVER be any as I said about OJ and if that's how you're trying to stop me then that's as far as it goes and you know it. But by the same token, no one can prove he didn't do it, either. Somebody did it, just like somebody killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman.

And really looking at my list above (forgot to add their uncle Sergei Botkin was head of the Russian emigre' community in Berlin,surely that was a lot of connections) I really can't understand what more a person could ask for other than an outright confession which you're never going to have (from him or OJ!) Even if OJ puts out his "If I Did It" book people are going to say that's still no A and B proof he did it, but come on. Where is the 'real killer?' And please name me one other suspect who could have masterminded AA's charade?

This is all I can say, I await someone else's theory.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2007, 11:08:14 PM
Annie

Your argument is specious at best, and frankly disappointing.  There WAS evidence to support OJ Simpson as the killer, and a jury found him so, in the civil case. He was there, the testimony of the limo driver, the testimony of Kato Kalin, blood evidence, etc...you can not just weasel out of your conclusions without evidence. HOW DARE you say someone is trying to shut you up?? Put you money where your mouth is and produce the evidence to support your suppositons.  You require this of others so live up to what you preach for others. Why is this a problem?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 01:13:58 AM
I guess the main question that strikes me about all of this is if Gleb and Tatiana Botkin did not feed Anderson with the information, who did? After all Tatiana went with Anderson to the Leuchtenbergs. Anderson alone wouldn't have known much apart from what she read in magazines and ascertained from others during her stay in mental hospitals. She wasn't Grand Duchess Anastasia. That was quite clear. The Botkins made a great deal of money out of Anderson through books and articles. They really didn't know the real Anastasia very well. This has come out from what members of the imperial family close to the real Anastasia recorded for posterity. The Botkins made a career out of Anderson and her fraudulent claims. Who would they have been otherwise? The answer is not terribly notable. They clung to her like bees to a honeypot as she was their only real meal ticket. I tend to think they saw the advantage financially of being involved with her scam and milked it for all they could. Once you get involved in lies you have to perpetuate them or drown.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2007, 08:02:08 AM
Annie

Your argument is specious at best, and frankly disappointing.  There WAS evidence to support OJ Simpson as the killer, and a jury found him so, in the civil case. He was there, the testimony of the limo driver, the testimony of Kato Kalin, blood evidence, etc...you can not just weasel out of your conclusions without evidence. HOW DARE you say someone is trying to shut you up?? Put you money where your mouth is and produce the evidence to support your suppositons.  You require this of others so live up to what you preach for others. Why is this a problem?


It's a problem because YOU KNOW there is NO confession, quote, piece of paper, or piece of evidence that PROVES he did it, and there never will be! I'm sure he covered his ass well in case he was ever sued for fraud, and Fallows probably advised him well. This does not IMO leave them innocent when you look at the whole story. As Dmitri says, if he didn't do it somebody please tell me who did. I am still waiting for someone to disprove my theories and present another suspect.

And on OJ I don't believe Kato gave any damning evidence on OJ, I think Kato knows a lot more than he told but used his joking and even stupid demeanor to charm his way out of spilling it all.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 17, 2007, 08:15:56 AM
We can argue and discuss this subject until the cows come home and will probably never get anywhere because there really is no clear-cut evidence for something like this. Because of the type of a case this is, there will be no way to prove or disprove the nature of the Botkins' involvement with AA's scam one way or another, unfortunately. The only thing we can do is speculate, which obviously is going to make some people upset because of personal involvement with the Botkins, this in turn will cause all kinds of rifts and distress on this forum for days to come, so probably we shouldn't even be discussing this subject at all. If anyone has a better solution, be my guest. :-)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2007, 09:40:37 AM
We can argue and discuss this subject until the cows come home and will probably never get anywhere because there really is no clear-cut evidence for something like this. Because of the type of a case this is, there will be no way to prove or disprove the nature of the Botkins' involvement with AA's scam one way or another, unfortunately. The only thing we can do is speculate, which obviously is going to make some people upset because of personal involvement with the Botkins, this in turn will cause all kinds of rifts and distress on this forum for days to come, so probably we shouldn't even be discussing this subject at all. If anyone has a better solution, be my guest. :-)

This is unfortunately true. All we can do now is to try to figure out what makes the most sense, and knowing that AA was a fraud, we can conclude that some of those involved with her were in on the fraud. There is no way to avoid that. A bunch of innocent people could not have masterminded and plotted that court case for years, and anyone stupid enough to have been honestly fooled wouldn't have been smart enough, and wouldn't have known what to do. So it's as plain as the nose on AA's face, though you'll never find a piece of paper that proves it.

And even if you did find a quote, what good would that do? All the quotes in AA's case are just this person said this, or that, some may have been lies, some human error, none of it is proof. This is why the DNA is the only proof we really have. Technically we can't even prove that Anastasia died in the Ipatiev house, we can prove she wasn't AA, but with no body and a bunch of conflicting testimony from the Reds, we cannot conclude without a shadow of a doubt that she died. I believe she did, all circumstantial evidence points to her being killed, but can you actually legally prove it? Can we legally prove Felix, or a British agent, or Dmitri, or Purkishevitch killed Rasputin? All we have are stories and some are conflicting. There are a lot of things like that in this saga. We just have figure out the most reasonable and likely conclusion and go with it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 17, 2007, 09:47:08 AM
Look,

Why is this so very different from the Buxhoeveden discussion we recently had?  A statement was asserted that Sophie "stole a large sum of money from the Imperial Family." We were able to look at evidence and come to a reasonable conclusion.

You wish to make the statement that "The Botkins were in on perpetrating a "fraud" with AA" or something to that effect, well do the same thing here as was done there, thats all.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2007, 09:54:40 AM
I have proposed a motive, means and an extreme likelihood, that is much more than anyone ever did for Sophie being guilty. It may have been stated as fact but there was nothing to back up why or how she did it, and it turns out she didn't. But Helen is right, because of how certain people here feel about the Botkin thing it's going to have to stay taboo and there's no need to discuss it because we will never have any more evidence than we do right now. I do want to add that I do not think the Schweitzers were in any way guilty of any part in it and I do believe they were completely convinced AA was AN otherwise they wouldn't have instigated and paid for the DNA tests. This doesn't mean Gleb wasn't involved, people doing things that aren't totally on the level don't usually come home and inform their little daughter. I do believe she believed in AA and believed her father did, though I don't personally believe it. There is really nowhere else to take this topic, and I will not fight it alone. I've got too much aggravation in my life already.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 17, 2007, 10:10:58 AM
Why is this so very different from the Buxhoeveden discussion we recently had? 

Because some people knew/know the Botkins/Schweitzers personally and seem to take it as a personal affront if anything negative is speculated about them. Big difference from Bux. Plus we actually had something to go by with Bux, i.e. some references to go by, which we followed up on and saw that they were in error. With this we have virtually nothing. These two cases are very different, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on August 17, 2007, 10:25:11 AM
Don't you guys see the point then? Speculation is just that, speculation.  This discussion is thus no different from the SPECULATION that AN survived because we don't have a body. Its no DIFFERENT from the speculation that Grossman killed FS....

We are NOT here to discuss speculation.  We are here to look at the historical record and try to find new facts and keep the integrity of the History intact.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 17, 2007, 10:30:29 AM
Don't you guys see the point then? Speculation is just that, speculation.  This discussion is thus no different from the SPECULATION that AN survived because we don't have a body. Its no DIFFERENT from the speculation that Grossman killed FS....

We are NOT here to discuss speculation.  We are here to look at the historical record and try to find new facts and keep the integrity of the History intact.


Exactly. And since there is nothing but speculation as far as the Botkins are concerned, then there is nothing to discuss. The only thing we can say is that we have those four options that I mentioned in the beginning and leave it at that.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 12:38:23 PM
Well the truth will come out. Already there is proof from material from members of the Russian Imperial Family that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin didn't know the Romanov children half as well as they claimed to. That casts a lot of evidence against their claims in their articles and books.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2007, 06:28:48 PM
Its no DIFFERENT from the speculation that Grossman killed FS....

What I meant about closing the case on Grossmann is that we DID prove, by finding the quotes from the Berlin police, that they did in 1927 agree with Ernie's detectives that AA was FS, therefore that effectively nullified their previous conclusion that FS was murdered by Grossmann. They realized they had been in error, and approved the identification of FS as AA. So there is no more speculation on that it has been proven. That's why some of us asked that the thread be closed because the story was over.

The Berlin police department eventually admitted they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's identification, and Heinz Drescher of Berlin Police Headquarters said that he had signed certain documents saying that identity has been established. "According to the material we have from the Haus-und-Vermoegensverwalten of the former Grand Duke of Hesse, and from various notices in the press, the alleged Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia, is, in reality, Franziska Schanzkowska, born on 16.12.96 in Borowihlas, and this is supposedly proved definitively."

Hess. Polizeiamten Darmstadt, 20.5.27
"Erkennungsdienst" [Identification Service]
"Referring to the so-called Anastasia of Russia"
"From the Berlin daily report ["Tagesbericht"] No. 32 of 20.4.27 it is signed and signified officially as established that the identity of the `Unbekannte' has been completely assured as being that of Franziska Schanzkowska by the `Kriminalzentrale' of Darmstadt.
"All of this has been taken up and accepted by the police of Berlin.

This therefore replaces their previous assumption that FS was killed by Grossmann, therefore the case is closed.

Just yesterday, another panel in AA's house of cards fell when it was revealed by a German board member that a book, "In the Face of the Revolution" (B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler) accusing Ernie of traveling to Russia during WWI was available to the German public three years before AA made her 'startling' revelation in 1925 she as "Anastasia" saw Ernie there. So while it still doesn't prove if Ernie made the trip or not, it does prove AA was not privy to any inside information "only Anastasia would know."

There is a lot out there that could, as Dmitri puts it, drive a fully loaded semi through the holes in her story. We are slowly filling in the missing pieces and more is surely to come. But in the case of the fraudulent claim, those involved were very clandestine, covered their behinds well and were careful never to leave a trail or give themselves away lest every one of them be arrested for fraud. So because of this we will never find a shread of a piece of paper 'proving' whodunnit, but this certainly does not mean they were all innocent. (and I hold to my word I will not discuss this here further)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on August 19, 2007, 06:30:47 AM
Well the truth will come out. Already there is proof from material from members of the Russian Imperial Family that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin didn't know the Romanov children half as well as they claimed to. That casts a lot of evidence against their claims in their articles and books.

I agree Dmitri,

Tatyana Botkina wrote in her 1921 publication (before the AA nonsense surfaced) anecdotes about the Imperial Family which as a child she could not possibly have witnessed personally.

Prior to 1911, Tatyana identified that as children they only saw the I. F. family when they passed by on the streets of Tsarskoe Selo - at some distance, just like any of the other local residents.

Tatyana noted that the Grand Duchesses allegedly recognized the Botikin children as being the children of the I. F.'s physician. It was in 1911 when the Botkin children travelled separately from their father to the Crimea where they were finally introduced to the imperial girls. Later during the periodic visits to Livadia they met Alexei.

My impression is that there was no contact in 1912, but they briefly saw but not spoke to two of the Grand Duchesses, Mariya and Anastasiya in 1913 in the Crimea when the Botkin children attended the same play at the local theater.

With the outbreak of WWI in 1914, there was no further face-to-face contact in Tsarskoe Selo that I can determine.

Clearly there was no intimate relationship with Grand Duchess Anastasiya and the Botkin children. However en exile there was a relationship between the Botkins and a Polish female who later became known as Anna Anderson.

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 19, 2007, 08:07:51 AM


Tatyana Botkina wrote in her 1921 publication (before the AA nonsense surfaced) anecdotes about the Imperial Family which as a child she could not possibly have witnessed personally.

Thanks for this info, I didn't know she had come out and written a book about the family before AA!
Very interesting. So already she was full of anecdotes about the family? If she didn't witness them personally, she must have heard them from her father or someone else who knew the family well. But this does mean, even if she didn't see them  personally, she did know stories and have 'memories' she could have used later to help AA(?)

Quote
Clearly there was no intimate relationship with Grand Duchess Anastasiya and the Botkin children. However en exile there was a relationship between the Botkins and a Polish female who later became known as Anna Anderson.

Margarita[/color]

Very interesting that this turnabout has surfaced. I was not aware that Tatiana had at first said one thing, then changed when the AA charade began. So what does this mean to the question at hand? I had always thought that if they didn't know the IF as well as they claimed that must mean they couldn't have had the info to help her. Apparently I was wrong! They could have had anecdotes to pass along and and still not been as close as they say. Also, what would be the reason for the change in story? Could it be that saying she was closer to the family than she was helped AA's claim as more of an endorsement?

But then another question surfaces, if they didn't know AN well would they have been able to recognize her (in AA) immediately as they said they did? Were they simply mistaken or intentionally dishonest? Were they at first taken in, as Gilliard had been, but came to disbelieve but not admit it later? There are even different stories on how he came to recognize her. In some versions, he claimed she was sitting in a room and asked about his 'funny animals', but Nancy Leeds' daughter, on the NOVA special, said she heard the story that he had been walking down a hallway and came to pass AA face to face without being introduced and knew immediately by her walk and hand movements it was AN. How many versions are out there and what is true? Also, Gleb described in his early AA writings that the real AN had 'a long nose, wide mouth, and a short, flat chin.' Looking at the pictures for yourself, you can see that describes AA, but not the real AN. So was his memory of AN clouded and replaced with a picture of AA? Or was this description somehow supposed to lead people to think AA was AN since that's what AA looked like? I know we will never know the truth or be able to prove a thing, but really, this whole thing is very 'fishy going on' and 'rotten in Denmark' to put it kindly. But of course, since AA wasn't AN, it had to be, somewhere. One thing I would really like to know in this 'mystery' is exactly when Tatyana became close with AA, this was apparently at least a couple years before Gleb became heavily involved, and their uncle Sergei had given his endorsement in 1926 ("if this isn't AN it's a miracle and I don't believe in miracles") This is SO interesting and it would be so informative and useful to be able to discuss it without offending anyone. If anyone has any comments or info on this topic they are afraid to post here please PM or email me, thanks.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 20, 2007, 09:33:00 PM
Yes it would appear the Botkins made an industry out of claiming to know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia when in fact all they knew was hearsay and the fraud Anna Anderson. How ashamed Dr.Botkin, their murdered father, would have been of both of them.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on August 20, 2007, 10:27:28 PM
Yes it would appear the Botkins made an industry out of claiming to know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia when in fact all they knew was hearsay and the fraud Anna Anderson. How ashamed Dr.Botkin, their murdered father, would have been of both of them.

Gleb turned his back on the upbringing his father had nurtured in his son. Gleb failed to comprehend his father's ultimate sacrifice. Turning to plaster casts for comfort did little for his credibility. The lies and deception are incomprehensible.

Dr Evgenii Botkin would have been repulsed by what Gleb had knowingly done for commercial gain and misguided fame!

The Botkin family for a number of generations had served Imperial Russia admirably and with honor. It is a sad that that is where their glory ended.

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 01:17:31 AM
Yes isn't it amazing that Anna Anderson even made the sign of the cross in the wrong direction for a Russian Orthodox. Isn't it amazing that the Botkins couldn't even get her to do that right!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Kransnoeselo on August 29, 2007, 07:03:25 PM
Having been in the AA camp for decades I must say that while I no longer support the conclusions of either of the Botkins, I never-the-less consider a lot of these accusations about their motives to be peculiar.  First and formost AA appeared in 1920 and her claims to be one of the Grand Duchesses occured well before AA met either Gleb or Tatiana. In fact her visits with Isa Buxdohoevden, Pierre Gillard, Olga Alexandrovna Romanova, the former Imperial servant Volkov, Alexandra Tegleva, and if Im not mistaken Princess Irene (Aunt "Nini").  It wasn't until later that AA would first meet Tatiana and then later still Gleb. 

In my estimation that after AA had decided to adopt the Anastasia identity it was during her time with the Kleist and Schwabe families where she met scores of monarchists.  During this time she was recognized by Zinaida Tolstoii who had been an acquaintence of the Empress and who had known the real Anastasia.  I have never thought that anyone intentionally gave AA information to bolster her knowledge.  Certainly once one reads any of the books about her especially Harriet Rathlef von Keilmann's or even Gleb Botkin's one can see how people were taken in by her.  The manner in which she spoke of "her" past was very natural. I can see how people who had been attached to the Imperial family- even if only very loosely could have imparted their own knowledge "Do you remember so-and-so?" or "Wasn't the new palace in the Crimea so very lovely?" and AA who had a rather remarkable memory for detail
ingested it all. 

Owing to the fact that the Botkin's didnt meet AA until after several years it is not surprising that AA had at the time of their visits a decent understandings of Romanov "memories".  For instance during Tatiana's visit she referenced a time when her father had performed nursing duties for the Grand Duchesses and AA accurately responded that she rememebered and it had been when they had "measles".  To Tatiana this certainly was a strong piece of evidence in AA's favor as that particular fact had never been published.  Yet we can read in Rathlef's book how AA in the mid 1920's knew the Grand Duchesses suffered from measles during their captivity, and there was no other time when all the Grand Duchesses suffered from a common illness at the same time.  It was a shock for friend and foe alike when AA would spout a particular "memory" which was not well known publically but in most cases these could be explained.  I recall AA's talk with the aged Volkov, none of their discussion of details were particularly impressive (Volkov asked who "Tatischev" was and AA correctly stated he was the Tsar's adjutant in Siberia, or who Derevenko was..etc  none of which should have been all that earth shattering but impressed Volkov who didn't think that such names were common place.)

Neither Gleb nor Tatiana had been extremely close to the Imperial family. Yes, they had played with the Duchesses especially on the Standart, but less and less frequently did they meet with them as they got older.  The two of them had been only a block or two from the Imperial family when the Romanovs were held captive in the Govenor's mansion- though they were never allowed to see them-they would only catch brief glimpses of them when they happened to be at the upstairs windows as they passed by on the street below.  The fact that their father Dr. Yevgenii was murdered with the Romanovs and that Gleb himself went to Ekaterinburg after the murder and saw the aftermath (found by the White investigators) I cannot believe that either he or his sister ever intentionally deceived anyone with respects to AA.  By the time they met her she had several of years to amass a great deal of knowledge about the Romanovs (See Rathlef's book).  With that being said I must stress that AA's "memories" on a whole are not all that impressive except perhaps for a handful.  If one reads the New York Times accounts of Olga Alexandrovna, Pierre Gilliard, and Alexandra Tegleva's visit to AA in the mid 1920's one can see that while AA knew certain things -for instance that there was a staircase which connected the children's rooms to their Mother's she was unable to recall what was on that staircase on a certain day, etc.  Her memories were incomplete. Bits and pieces which came out in brief spurts not in a long narrative.   Another example is when talking of her Mother's bedroom she infact described the bedroom of the Dowager Empress Marie (a photo of which Pierre Gilliard pointed out had been shown in an illustrated magazine).  For more such examples please read La Fausse Anastasie by Pierre Gilliard.
 
 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Kransnoeselo on August 29, 2007, 07:04:28 PM
continued...

AA was a "confidence trickster" as her opponents lawer Berenberg-Gossler stated in an interview.  He would also say to a young man who was about to meet AA for the first time "She will win you over because she has an astonishing suggestive power" (Klier) That power was even greater for those who wanted to believe.  Even Olga Alexandrovna the Aunt and God-Mother of the real Anastasia would state upon leaving AA after their visit that "My reason cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me that the little one (AA) is Anastasia" (Kurth).  Anastasia's nursemaid Alexandra Tegleva (and Gilliard's wife) would leave crying saying "I loved her (Anastasia) so much, I loved her so much!  Why do I love this patient (AA) just as much!" (Kurth) These two Ladies who ought to know Anastasia better than most left her bedside confused and perplexed.  Certainly Olga would later come to terms with the fact that AA was not her neice, but for someone to have know the real Duchess so well to have had such a difficult time I can see how for Tatiana and Gleb who had not known the real Anastasia as well could also have fallen prey to this "astonishing suggestive power"

The character of the Botkins never came into question by her opponents- even by Pierre Gilliard. For those unacguainted with the Botkins I strongly encourage them to read "The Real Romanovs" or the book "Lost Tales" which is a collection of stories writen and illustrated by the teenaged Gleb Botkin who wrote the stories for the Grand Duchesses while they were in captivity in the Govenor's mansion in Tobolsk.  The drawings were taken by Dr Yevgeneii Botkin (who had access to the Romanovs due to his position as Imperial physician) to the Imperial children who would send back suggestions and comments back to Gleb.  The book has a cast of aristocratic animals in human attire who suffer from a revolution but who are eventually rescused and their power restored.  Alas for their reallife counterparts no such rescue ever came.

The Botkins were just children when their father was murdered and when they had to flee for their lives from Russia.  When they met AA they were in their late twenties.  The wounds of their losses would still have been present.  It is not surprsing to me that they felt comfort in "knowning" that one of the Duchesses had some how managed to escape and they would each spend the rest of their lives doing what they could to support her.  Gleb Botkin even brought AA over to America when she was in jeopardy of losing her housing in the Black forest to marry an acquaintance of his in order to give her legal residence and someone to help care for her.

If Gleb or Tatiana had any nefarious plans it seems odd to me that Gleb would fail to mention the knowledge that AA was not Anastasia to his daughter or his son-in-law Richard Schweitzer.  Obviously he never did otherwise they would not have been so intrumental in getting AA's intestinal sample in the Virginia court system.   I must reinterate that without the Schweitzer's help that sample would still be in the hospital in Virginia without ever having been tested.

After all of my years investigating AA's claim the one thing I can say with certainty is that I do not doubt the sincerity of either Tatiana or Gleb.

Tim
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2007, 07:16:43 PM
What about when Gleb went to see her and she mentioned the 'funny animals'? I had always thought this was a setup between them, that he told her to say it in private, via phone or note, so they could amaze people in public. However, Klier offers a more rational explaination. She had been friends with Tatiana Botkin 2 years before Gleb came fully onto the scene (remember that she refused to go to the Leuchtenberg's unless Tatiana came, perhaps because she needed her 'Cyrano' for 'memories' and info on Imperial Russia?), so she had to have in some way told her about the animals. Knowing AA isn't AN we know she sure didn't remember it first hand, so please tell me other than those two explainations how did she know? In a way, it's actually more of a compliment to think of them as con artists masterminding the claim rather than poor buffoonish idiots falling for a fraud. I mean, a lot of people can be fooled in one meeting, but as long as they were around her for years and years, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe they were innocent victims. Besides, SOMEBODY masterminded the claim, and how can it be ignored Gleb initiated the court case, hired Fallows, wrote books, spread the rumors about 'greedy' relatives, etc.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 07:37:18 PM
....spread the rumors about 'greedy' relatives, etc.

That's the part that makes it kind of hard for me to feel sorry for Botkin, in any case. He was pretty vicious in his attacks on the Romanov relatives who wouldn't accept Anna Anderson as Anastasia, including Olga Alexandrovna whom he accused of rejecting her niece out of greed. These people had lost their brother/son/nieces/nephew and suffered friom that enough at that point, and Gleb was pretty brutal and unfair to them while promoting AA's "cause"... So if he can dish it out, he should be able to take it (even though he is presently deceased...).  I am not accusing Gleb one way or another because I have no idea what really happened, I am just making a point - let's not have a double standard here... Seems that everyone is fair game in this game.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 05, 2007, 02:36:45 AM
Yes it would appear the Botkins made an industry out of claiming to know the real Grand Duchess Anastasia when in fact all they knew was hearsay and the fraud Anna Anderson. How ashamed Dr.Botkin, their murdered father, would have been of both of them.

Gleb turned his back on the upbringing his father had nurtured in his son. Gleb failed to comprehend his father's ultimate sacrifice. Turning to plaster casts for comfort did little for his credibility. The lies and deception are incomprehensible.

Dr Evgenii Botkin would have been repulsed by what Gleb had knowingly done for commercial gain and misguided fame!

The Botkin family for a number of generations had served Imperial Russia admirably and with honor. It is a sad that that is where their glory ended.

Margarita

This is my feeling, as well.  I was inclined to sympathize with and believe in the Botkins because of the sad fate of their father, and what kind of people would try to capitalize on an event in which their own father perished so cruelly?  Yet I have to believe they were knowingly guilty in the whole scheme.  Gleb Botkin's producing the paintings he had made to which the Grand Duchess Anastasia supposedly made up stories to go with the pictures, and then saying Anna Anderson had repeated the exact same stories to him, was called in at least one source "the most positive identification of her in her lifetime."  Gleb, AND HE ALONE, HAD to have supplied her with those stories!  No one else living would have known them, except, as Annie suggested, Gleb's sister, but if he had known Anastasia THAT well, even if his sister set him up by supplying AA with this, he would soon catch on that AA wasn't AN.  Add to that all the other evidence against him based on his actions, and certainly someone capable of insulting Nicholas's sisters was capable of great cruelty, which is what such a plot would require.

It's been said here elsewhere that all the Imperial children kept diaries and at least some of everyone but Anastasia's have survived.  It will be interesting, if and when those are ever translated, to see just how much, if at all, the Botkin children are mentioned as close personal acquaintances!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 03:13:44 AM
Yes such truthful and valuable primary sources would be most interesting. One wonders whether the names of Gleb or Tatiana Botkin would be mentioned even once.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Kransnoeselo on September 05, 2007, 09:43:47 PM
     I am once again compelled to write on this forum regarding the recent posts about Gleb and Tatiana Botkin, most of which has in my opinion been rather unfair and lopsided.

    With regards to the story that Anna Anderson recounted with Gleb the stories which went along with the paintings he showed her (which had been made in Tobolsk) is inaccurate.  The only source that suggest that Anna had recalled such "stories" was James Blair Lovell in his book Anastasia the Loast Princess.  Yet in all of the previous sources said nothing of Anna remembering the stories, only that she could decifer which ones had been made before the revolution.  In fact in Gleb's own account he wrote that Anna after looking through some of his newer paintings saw the older one's she stated that she had seen those before.  Certainly she would have learned by the mid 1920's when she was visited by Gleb that he had drawn such characters for the Grand Duchesses.  As the author Klier points out in Quest for Anastasia a lot of Gleb's paintings had dates on them.  In addition his drawings consisted of animals wearing human attire.  When looking at his drawings it is very easy to see which ones were done before the revolution owing to the style of dress- the ones he made in the 1920's had 1920's style clothing.  So it wouldn't take a much for someone to determine which one's had been made before the revolution and which ones were not.
 
      For some reason people feel compelled to attack those around Anna Anderson and assume they had something to do with helping her claims and while some may warrant such atacks I highly recommend to anyone who is in doubt of Gleb's motives to read his book about the whole matter entitled The Woman Who Rose Again.   

      The situation with the Botkins is much like what one of Grand Duchess Xenia's children said about his cousin Princess Xenia Leeds of Greece who had recognized Anna as Anastasia.  He pointed out that the last time the Princess had seen Anastasia was when the two were ten years old and almost 18 years had past since they had seen each other.  Grand Duchess Xenia herself listened to the Princess's account and held no grudges towards her namesake since she knew that she was genuine in her belief however much misguided it was.  When one reads Gleb's book one can easily see how he fell for this woman who was so self certain as to her identity that she convinced many including Lili Dehn, Grand Duke Andreii, Zenaida Tolstoii, Prince Sigismund, Princess Xenia Leeds etc.   If one reads Gleb's other book about the Romanovs one will also see that most of his knowledge of the Romanovs came from his father, not his own experience, although Gleb and his sister did live in proximity to the Romanovs they would rarely play together- mainly during voyages on the Standart.  Certainly they knew the Grand Duchesses as playmates and friends but like Princess Xenia it had been a great spanse of time since they had last conversed with any of the Grand Duchesses. Gleb and Tatiana had lost their elder brother in the war, their father to the revolution and they both were lucky to escape the bloody civil war which wrecked their homeland, which neither of them would see again. I believe Tatiana and Gleb found in Anna Anderson some sort of comfort for their misery brought about by the death of their father and the lives they knew before.   

    Once again their are many explainations as to Anna Anderson's knowledge of the Romanovs. [Including the 'hordes' of monarchists who visited her when she stayed with both the Kleist family and the Jaenickes. Or for that matter all of the incorrect statements Anna made with regards to the Romanovs.]  I see no need or reason to disgrace the names of people who did what they thought and believed was right.  I think one should be wary of putting words into the mouths of those who have gone before us. No offense, but I do think it is in rather poor taste to assume what the late Dr Yevgenii Botkin would or would not think of his children's actions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 10:47:07 AM
     
 For some reason people feel compelled to attack those around Anna Anderson and assume they had something to do with helping her claims and while some may warrant such atacks I highly recommend to anyone who is in doubt of Gleb's motives to read his book about the whole matter entitled The Woman Who Rose Again.   

The reason is because she was a fraud, and there was no way she could have known the things she did or pulled off the act alone. Somebody had to have helped her, there is no other option.

His book? It's fiction, and written to help her case. He was a creative genius, so I'm not surprised he could weave a tale but you can't take it as reality. Massie's book said Gleb describes Anastasia in his book as having 'a wide mouth and a short flat chin'- but if you look at pics of the real AN, you see she has a narrow mouth and a longer, curved chin, it's AA with the 'short flat chin.' What could be his reason for giving that descripton other than to make AA look more like AN to his readers??

Quote
I see no need or reason to disgrace the names of people who did what they thought and believed was right.  I think one should be wary of putting words into the mouths of those who have gone before us.

We can't put words in their mouths, and we know they all died with their secrets and no one leaves a paper trail of fraud. But the fact remains that while we may never know for sure exactly who did what, who really believed her and who didn't, there WAS without a doubt some very crooked shenanigans going on in AA's case and there have to be several people who are guilty.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:39:41 PM
Well one thing for sure is the real Grand Duchess Anastasia was in the cellar of the Ipatiev House with Dr.Botkin. Neither of them walked out alive.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 08, 2007, 03:05:08 PM
Yet, I agree with an earlier poster who talked about the unfair comments about the Botkins.

I am reminded of one of Prince Vasili's granddaughters, when I asked her about the family's opinion of Stephanie Romanov, who always claimed to be part of the Imperial Family. She said, with a smile, "well, she's a very distant relative, if you know what I mean!".

Nothing but good humor there - which is in contrast to some of our member's righteous indignation about other faux Romanovs.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 08, 2007, 08:15:38 PM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 09, 2007, 12:34:33 AM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa

Or, she could be considered a distant cousin. I actually have a great sense of humor in real life.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:56:14 AM
yes a very distant cousins ... smile ... as close as you and I are related Lisa ... smile
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 09, 2007, 12:04:55 PM
yes a very distant cousins ... smile ... as close as you and I are related Lisa ... smile

Now, there's a really scary thought!  ;)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 12:15:27 PM
smile ... I wonder what the DNA would reveal?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on September 09, 2007, 06:05:55 PM
That minor pretender was never a threat to anyone or anything, didn't have a huge and expensive ongoing lawsuit, and didn't have supporters making hurtful and slanderous accusations against the family.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on September 10, 2007, 01:01:55 AM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa

I must say I never thought of it in such a way. An amusing and clever comment Dmitrii!

Margarita   ::)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Foxglove on September 10, 2007, 02:26:03 AM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa

Or, she could be considered a distant cousin. I actually have a great sense of humor in real life.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it found through DNA that FS had a common ancestor with Nicholas II hundreds of years back?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 10, 2007, 06:46:03 AM
No doubt many people did.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lemur on September 10, 2007, 09:41:18 AM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa

Or, she could be considered a distant cousin. I actually have a great sense of humor in real life.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it found through DNA that FS had a common ancestor with Nicholas II hundreds of years back?

I've never heard that, I don't think so. I did hear that one of the doctors doing the tests found that he himself matched the same mtDNA pattern as Nicholas. No, he didn't match the Romanovs, it would have been the mtDNA of Marie's (Dagmar's) line. Dagmar's mother was not of high royal background, and her father, who was not in direct line for the throne, 'lucked' into becoming King when he was chosen for his favorable political views after the death of a childless relative. (This is told in "Little Mother Russia") It's not unusual to find that a European doctor may have been descended from the same family line as one of Dagmar's distant cousins.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 10, 2007, 12:42:03 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it found through DNA that FS had a common ancestor with Nicholas II hundreds of years back?

Not that I ever heard... It was shown that FS/AA had a common ancestor with Carl Maucher.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Foxglove on September 10, 2007, 04:55:28 PM
Okay, here is the thread where it is concluded that Nicholas and AA shared a common ancestor: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974). It is stated that this ancestor was shared approximately ten of thousands of years back, not hundreds of years ago as I originally remembered.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 10, 2007, 06:31:11 PM
Okay, here is the thread where it is concluded that Nicholas and AA shared a common ancestor: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974). It is stated that this ancestor was shared approximately ten of thousands of years back, not hundreds of years ago as I originally remembered.

Foxglove. We all share the same ancestry tens of thousands of years back. This is meaningless.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Foxglove on September 10, 2007, 09:08:42 PM
Okay, here is the thread where it is concluded that Nicholas and AA shared a common ancestor: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg38974/topicseen.html#msg38974). It is stated that this ancestor was shared approximately ten of thousands of years back, not hundreds of years ago as I originally remembered.

Foxglove. We all share the same ancestry tens of thousands of years back. This is meaningless.

Oh, of course it is meaningless if we consider the lineage today, but it counts for something if we're joking about the irony of a familial connection through Adam and Eve. ;)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on September 10, 2007, 11:49:36 PM
smile Foxglove ... no doubt we're all related very distantly ... how very spooky!!!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 11, 2007, 01:23:29 PM
Yes no doubt Anna Anderson/Franziska Schankowska was a relation of the Romanovs through Adam and Eve. There's a touch of humour now!!! ... smile Lisa

Or, she could be considered a distant cousin. I actually have a great sense of humor in real life.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it found through DNA that FS had a common ancestor with Nicholas II hundreds of years back?

I've never heard that, I don't think so. I did hear that one of the doctors doing the tests found that he himself matched the same mtDNA pattern as Nicholas. No, he didn't match the Romanovs, it would have been the mtDNA of Marie's (Dagmar's) line. Dagmar's mother was not of high royal background, and her father, who was not in direct line for the throne, 'lucked' into becoming King when he was chosen for his favorable political views after the death of a childless relative. (This is told in "Little Mother Russia") It's not unusual to find that a European doctor may have been descended from the same family line as one of Dagmar's distant cousins.

Actually, you are mistaken about MF's mother. She was actually an heir to the House of Oldenberg that has ruled Denmark for many centuries - the longest ruling Royal European house in history. The thing is, the powers that be preferred a male heir, so her husband, who ruled as King Christian, was named heir. He was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, by the way.

MF's mother was Princess Louise of Hesse-Cassel, a royal family of long standing.

I do agree that they "lucked" into the throne.

As to the mtDNA, there are probably thousands if not tens of thousands of people who share this particular matrilineal line of descent.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 05, 2007, 11:54:39 AM
What disgusting entries we see here.

None of those, such as replies 25 and 31, have any personal knowledge of the individuals they impugn.

None of them know of the conditions Gleb and Tatiana endured.   I do, personally, because I helped alleviate those conditions over the years.

So much of what some post as "fact" is so absolutely false.

This is much like today's American politics - that of Personal Destruction; and to what end, to elevate one's own personal prominence; to attract attention?

By separate contact, I have asked the writer of Reply 25 to explain the source of her intimate knowledge of the Botkins (who are my children's grandparents).

How much of these slimy inferences and allegations are based on any real knowledge of the subjects?

R. Richard Schweitzer
s24rrs@aol.com



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 05, 2007, 12:18:02 PM

By separate contact, I have asked the writer of Reply 25 to explain the source of her intimate knowledge of the Botkins (who are my children's grandparents).


Are you suggesting Gleb and Tatiana had a child?????

To be honest I think if anything is disgusting it was Glebs behaviour towards Grand Duchesses Olgs and Xenia!

Thank you.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 05, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
Are you suggesting Gleb and Tatiana had a child?????

I don't think Mr. Schweitzer means that the Botkins, as in Gleb and Tatiana, were the grandparents of his children - that would mean incest, which would be nasty - I think he just means that Gleb was the grandfather of his children.

And yes, Gleb was quite brutal towards some of the surviving Romanovs, particularly he did not spare Olga Alexandrovna, accusing her of all sorts of stuff she obviously did not deserve to be accused of - that cannot be denied. We can probably even apply this comment to Gleb's tactics in his Anna Anderson "campaign", towards OA in particular:

This is much like today's American politics - that of Personal Destruction; and to what end, to elevate one's own personal prominence; to attract attention?

So I suppose we can say that Gleb got as good as he dished out - if you choose to look at it that way...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 05, 2007, 01:11:37 PM
I will remind posters to treat Mr. Schweitzer with respect and civility,  his wife's family, after all, is being publicly discussed.  I would, of course, hope that he would not simply call statements "absolutely false", but rather share his knowledge of the specific facts with all of us.

FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 05, 2007, 07:08:16 PM
To clarify, Mr. Schweitzer is the husband of Marina Botkin Schweitzer. Marina is the daughter of Gleb Botkin, and the granddaughter of Dr. Eugene Botkin. Marina's aunt was therefore Tatiana Botkin Melnik. Lest Mr. Schweitzer be offended by some of our posters' drawing such dreadful conclusions about his father in law and his wife's aunt, I hope he will remember that not all our members are aware of the family situation.

From what I understand, Mr. Schweitzer and his wife made sure that Gleb and Tatiana had a measure of comfort once Richard joined the family. Without him, we would not have the absolute proof that AA was not Anastasia, as he financed that portion of the DNA testing out of his own pocket.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 06, 2007, 03:24:42 AM
Thank you for claifying! I was startled to read that and thought I would have heard such a thing before if that had been the case. Apologies for any confusion.
Many Thanks.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Mari on October 06, 2007, 03:30:19 AM
Quote
By the time they met her she had several of years to amass a great deal of knowledge about the Romanovs (See Rathlef's book).  With that being said I must stress that AA's "memories" on a whole are not all that impressive except perhaps for a handful.  If one reads the New York Times accounts of Olga Alexandrovna, Pierre Gilliard, and Alexandra Tegleva's visit to AA in the mid 1920's.....
For more such examples please read La Fausse Anastasie by Pierre Gilliard.
AA was a "confidence trickster" as her opponents lawer Berenberg-Gossler stated in an interview.  He would also say to a young man who was about to meet AA for the first time "She will win you over because she has an astonishing suggestive power" (Klier) That power was even greater for those who wanted to believe.  Even Olga Alexandrovna the Aunt and God-Mother of the real Anastasia would state upon leaving AA after their visit that "My reason cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me that the little one (AA) is Anastasia" (Kurth).  Anastasia's nursemaid Alexandra Tegleva (and Gilliard's wife) would leave crying saying "I loved her (Anastasia) so much, I loved her so much!  Why do I love this patient (AA) just as much!" (Kurth) These two Ladies who ought to know Anastasia better than most left her bedside confused and perplexed.  Certainly Olga would later come to terms with the fact that AA was not her neice, but for someone to have know the real Duchess so well to have had such a difficult time I can see how for Tatiana and Gleb who had not known the real Anastasia as well could also have fallen prey to this "astonishing suggestive power"

The character of the Botkins never came into question by her opponents- even by Pierre Gilliard. For those unacguainted with the Botkins I strongly encourage them to read "The Real Romanovs" or the book "Lost Tales" which is a collection of stories writen and illustrated by the teenaged Gleb Botkin.
Quote


Thank you for the Sources. I like the Way you make your Point and then reference it! 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 06, 2007, 08:28:39 AM
I am always very excited when a person who actually has some provable connection to the history we all so venerate takes the time to come here and to post.

We have to remember that even though the murder took place almost 90 years ago, there are still those who knew and remember others who actually were alive at that time and who have salient points to make.

I am not all that old and yet I both of my grandmothers (now deceased, of course) were born in the late 1800s.  One in 1886 and the other in 1896.  So if they followed the current news, they would have both known about the murder and the revolution first hand.  One grandmother would have been 32 and the other 22!  I did not know the elder because she died when I was two, but I knew the younger one very well and she died in 1981.  Had I been smart, I would have talked to her about what she remembered.

We should thank Mr. Schweitzer for taking the time to come here and post for us.  His knowledge of this incident (AA/FA) must be enormous when compared to ours.

We should also mind our manners when posting.  There is good reason to question and to disagree, but not to disparage or slander.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 06, 2007, 10:50:12 AM
I could never understand why AA supporters are free to viciously attack the credibility and honor of Olga A. and Gilliard, or the honesty or credibility of the DNA scientists or Martha Jefferson Hospital, but whenever someone even suggests hypothetically that the Botkins may possibly have been involved in the AA charade, it's suddenly 'repugnant' and 'slander.' Why are they untouchable in our questioning if everyone else is fair game? Everyone is someone's relative, and that alone cannot exhonorate or condemn anyone. To find out the truth, we have to explore everything. We know now thanks to testing that AA wasn't AN, so we have to wonder just how she got some of the information she 'knew.' There were a lot of emigres' who could have helped her either intentionally or innocently, and we will likely never know for sure who did what. But the fact is, someone did something, because AA was FS and not AN therefore she had to get her info somewhere.

As far as reading "Lost Tales", I have, and I liked it. However it was actually reading the forward to the book that rang a bell in my head and got me wondering if perhaps the Botkin kids were a good source for AA being as they had been friends with the Imperial kids and would have known some things about the details of their lives. The two big factors for me were, they knew the kids, and Gleb was a very gifted writer and artist with a wonderful creative mind, even at that young age. I got to thinking, isn't that just the type of person who could really help in such a situation?  I didn't even see John Godl's articles stating he believed the Botkins were involved until a couple years later. I would like to believe they were innocent, but at this point if they were they'd probably look a bit silly being fooled for so long, and IMO it's actually less of an insult to consider they may have been shrewd perpetrators involved in the claim itself. While I do wonder, and it does seem to add up and fill in some missing puzzle pieces, I know we can never know for sure, and I have and never will make any direct accusations as fact,  unlike some AA supporters have done in accusing Olga, and in suggesting fraud in the DNA testing. I am very sorry if anyone feels hurt or offended by the questioning in this case, but it would be a disservice to history not to try to find out what really happened. Olga and Xenia's family were certainly deeply hurt by AA's case, it does seem to spread the misery around with no one winning.

I have always said, I do believe the Schweitzers are totally innocent in all this and truly believed AA was AN or they wouldn't have had the testing done.(which we all appreciate) But the results did not turn out to be what they had hoped for (and what many had hoped for, didn't we all hope Anastasia got away?) so maybe it's time to accept that, and the possible implications that go with it, and move on.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 06, 2007, 03:46:12 PM
Much has been said here about the libelous accusations Gleb made against certain of the Romanovs.

For what value it may have to those who are unfamiliar with the then extent conditions, Gleb purposefully intended those remarks to evoke (provoke?) action against him by those offended. That was his reason. Because in litigation that would have ensued, what facts were known to the offended, needed for their action would have had to have been brought forward.

Yes, the libels (if they were really libels) were intentional and hurtful, but they were asserted against the living, who could readily "defend their honor."

That they chose NOT to defend those charges must carry at least as strong inferences as those posting here assign to Gleb's actions.

I myself referred to Olga's own statements, writings  and reactions at the 1994 press conference in which Peter Gill reported the findings of the FSS.

In response to questions, I pointed out that a person in Olga's stratum of society (as then constituted) upon visiting Frau Unbeknant (before Gleb saw her again) would never for a moment confuse
a woman of Frisian (not Polish) descent, with only lower-class origins of that time, with someone (even if not her niece) of her own class or culture, and written so kindly, and sent gifts, until ordered to "cut-off"  by her sister and her brother-in-law.

Now, what inference should be drawn from what I find I must do from time to time, and what Marina, bound by the sense of duty which imbued  her entire family, continued to act upon after her father's death?

 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on October 06, 2007, 04:56:58 PM
Richard, I think you are wonderful to grace this forum. 

Its sad that you only come here to fight for Gleb.  It would be so nice to be able to have you and Marina tell us about the the real Gleb and what he was like as a person and a father.  It is really so wonderful to have someone able to tell us from personal experience.....I am very interested in the whole Botkin family.

These forums are so rough.....thank you for coming.

Arleen

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Janet_W. on October 06, 2007, 06:37:25 PM
I agree with Arleen.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: TampaBay on October 06, 2007, 07:39:34 PM
Richard, I think you are wonderful to grace this forum. 

Its sad that you only come here to fight for Gleb.  It would be so nice to be able to have you and Marina tell us about the the real Gleb and what he was like as a person and a father.  It is really so wonderful to have someone able to tell us from personal experience.....I am very interested in the whole Botkin family.

These forums are so rough.....thank you for coming.

Arleen



Mr. Schweitzer,

Thank you very much for posting.  You are part of hiistory and I greatly thank you for comming forth with your point of view and background information.

Please continue you post as you are well respected on the AP Forum.

Sincerely,

TampaBay
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 07, 2007, 12:02:35 AM
... I did mistake reply 31 for reply 30 but still ask the writer of reply 25 for the source of her intimate knowledge to support her statements.

Welcome back Mr Schweitzer,

Replying to your question which you have directed to me, I am very happy to provide the answer you seek.

color]

Tatyana Botkina wrote in her 1921 publication (before the AA nonsense surfaced) anecdotes about the Imperial Family ...

Quoting your words regarding my so called "intimate knowledge of the Botkins" I must declare that my knowledge of the Botkin Family is not "intimate" as you have yourself described Sir. It all comes from information that was gleaned from publicly available sources. Nothing more.

Primarily the information I posted at post # 21 came from: Воспоминание о Царской Семье [Memories if the Tsarist Family] Tatiana Melnik-Botkina (1921, Reprinted in 2004 by Harvest, Moscow).

I would be most interested to learn what your impressions are regarding the news that the 2007 Ekaterinburg excavation remains may prove to be those of Anastasia and Alexei.

Your reply will be appreciated.

Margarita  
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: lexi4 on October 07, 2007, 09:07:35 AM
Much has been said here about the libelous accusations Gleb made against certain of the Romanovs.

For what value it may have to those who are unfamiliar with the then extent conditions, Gleb purposefully intended those remarks to evoke (provoke?) action against him by those offended. That was his reason. Because in litigation that would have ensued, what facts were known to the offended, needed for their action would have had to have been brought forward.

Yes, the libels (if they were really libels) were intentional and hurtful, but they were asserted against the living, who could readily "defend their honor."

That they chose NOT to defend those charges must carry at least as strong inferences as those posting here assign to Gleb's actions.

I myself referred to Olga's own statements, writings  and reactions at the 1994 press conference in which Peter Gill reported the findings of the FSS.

In response to questions, I pointed out that a person in Olga's stratum of society (as then constituted) upon visiting Frau Unbeknant (before Gleb saw her again) would never for a moment confuse
a woman of Frisian (not Polish) descent, with only lower-class origins of that time, with someone (even if not her niece) of her own class or culture, and written so kindly, and sent gifts, until ordered to "cut-off"  by her sister and her brother-in-law.

Now, what inference should be drawn from what I find I must do from time to time, and what Marina, bound by the sense of duty which imbued  her entire family, continued to act upon after her father's death?

I did mistake reply 31 for reply 30 but still ask the writer of reply 25 for the source of her intimate knowledge to support her statements.
 

I agree with Arleen and Janet. I am happy to see you here and hope you will continue to post because you are a part of the history. You are most gracious.
Lexi
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 07, 2007, 09:17:48 AM
From The Romanovs - The Final Chapter by Robert Massie:

Chapter 18 - page 243:   "Richard and Marina Schweitzer, like Brien Horan, refused to accept the Schanzkowska identity.  "I know one thing for certain," said Schweitzer immediately after the London press conference.  "Anastasia was not a Polish peasant."  Schweitzer made clear that he did not challenge Peter Gill's finding that the Charlottesville tissue Gill had tested was unrelated to Empress Alexandra and probably was related to the Schanzkowska family.  Instead, he challenged the legitimacy of the samples Gill had tested."

"We now feel that there had to be some form of manipulation or substitution.  Specifically, that means that somehow, somebody got in and switched or substituted tissue at Martha Jefferson Hospital."

Chapter 18 - page 244:  "What could be the motive for such a conspiracy?  Schweitzer suggested two:  "When it looked as though they were going to be thwarted by Lovell from getting access to the tissue by legal means, they took the real tissue away and put something else there.  [the "something else" would have been the Schanzkowska family tissue].  Then, later, after feigning a long search, they could come up with the lost tissue, the real tissue, produce the right results, and get credit for solving the mystery.  Or, if their objective was to make sure that she was recognized as Schanzkowska, a substitution would achieve that nicely.  Who might 'they' have been?  Many people had reasons - family reasons, almost hereditary reasons - for not wanting her to  be Grand Duchess Anastasia.  Money would not be a problem for these people."

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 07, 2007, 09:31:51 AM
Quote
That they chose NOT to defend those charges must carry at least as strong inferences as those posting here assign to Gleb's actions.

Technically they did defend them, by fighting Anderson in court for many years.

Quote
In response to questions, I pointed out that a person in Olga's stratum of society (as then constituted) upon visiting Frau Unbeknant (before Gleb saw her again) would never for a moment confuse a woman of Frisian (not Polish) descent, with only lower-class origins of that time, with someone (even if not her niece) of her own class or culture, and written so kindly, and sent gifts, until ordered to "cut-off"  by her sister and her brother-in-law.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that Olga did believe AA was AN and only stopped because of pressure from her family? From all I've heard, Olga was the 'black sheep' of the family, wrong marriage, simple lifestyle, and certainly did not benefit from any connections with her relations and never had much money. For someone who was allegedly 'paid off' she died broke. Honestly, did you ever consider that the reason it took her so long to decide for sure it wasn't her is because of the sickly and emaciated state of Fraulein Unbeknant? I can understand how a person would give it a chance, and that may take some time. Finally deciding she was not who she had hoped she be does not constitute the same thing as 'denying' and 'turning her back'. As it turns out, with the DNA tests and now the final remains of the last 2 children recovered, AA really wasn't AN, so Olga was right, so who can blame her now? Olga is also dead and cannot defend herself and it's really sad that even to this day with all the evidence against AA that it would still be considered that she abandoned her 'niece.'  I do not believe any of them would have done that to a real Anastasia, but she wasn't Anastasia.

And as far as 'confusing someone with lower-class origins', that sounds rather bigoted and judgemental, and unfair. Just because a person is from a family of lesser means does not mean they are stupid and incapable of learning new things. Actresses can come from any background and still play any part.  In the condition that AA was in when she was first met by Olga and Gilliard,  it would have been difficult for them to tell anything immediately for sure, like the woman who found the dirty dog she thought was her lost dog until she got him home and washed him up. But over time, they became convinced she was not AN, and they turned out to be right.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 07, 2007, 09:53:20 AM

"We now feel that there had to be some form of manipulation or substitution.  Specifically, that means that somehow, somebody got in and switched or substituted tissue at Martha Jefferson Hospital."

Chapter 18 - page 244:  "What could be the motive for such a conspiracy?  Schweitzer suggested two:  "When it looked as though they were going to be thwarted by Lovell from getting access to the tissue by legal means, they took the real tissue away and put something else there.  [the "something else" would have been the Schanzkowska family tissue].  Then, later, after feigning a long search, they could come up with the lost tissue, the real tissue, produce the right results, and get credit for solving the mystery.  Or, if their objective was to make sure that she was recognized as Schanzkowska, a substitution would achieve that nicely.  Who might 'they' have been?  Many people had reasons - family reasons, almost hereditary reasons - for not wanting her to  be Grand Duchess Anastasia.  Money would not be a problem for these people."

I would like someone to explain, even IF there was a switch which is very unlikely, what would it haveallegedly been switched with? How would one go about obtaining such tissue from the Schanskowska family member, kidnap him, cut him open, take out exactly the same piece of intestine AA had taken out, then do a double switch since the tissue was stored in two different places under two different numbers? The odds against this are astronomical, even impossible.

Also from Massie's book, here is the explaination of Penny Jenkins, who was responsible for Martha Jefferson Hospital's medical records and samples:

"We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place.

"Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 07, 2007, 05:28:23 PM
from The Final Chapter by Massie:

Chapter 18 page 245:  "While he was in London, Richard Schweitzer learned the results of two other DNA tests, one on tissue, the other on hair, both alleged to have come from Anastasia Manahan. Neither was encouraging to Schweitzer's belief that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia.  The tissue report came from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology.  Scientists there had extracted mitochondrial DNA from the tissue sample which Susan Barritt had brought to Bethesda from Charlottesville.  This profile was compared to Peter Gill's published profile of Prince Philip.  The result was the same as that achieved by Gill:  there was no match.  Thus, AFIP's Charlottesville tissue, like Gill's was excluded from a relationship with Prince Philip and Empress Alexandra.  The institute did not make a comparison with the Polish profile obtained from Karl Maucher.  They did not report, therefore, who the donor might be, only who she was not."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 07, 2007, 06:55:58 PM
Thanks, Alix. In the DNA thread, DaveK discusses more on this topic, it's right on the first page of the thread complete with pictures of articles:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,2094.0.html
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 07, 2007, 11:52:24 PM
I would be most interested to learn what your impressions are regarding the news that the 2007 Ekaterinburg excavation remains may prove to be those of Anastasia and Alexei.

Margarita  

CORRECTION: Mariya and Alexei.  

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 12:23:30 AM
In response to Reply 65:

No, you do not answer from what intimate knowledge you pass judgement on Gleb's conduct.

I am familiar with what is known as the "Belgrade Edition," I personally knew Tatiana and the realtion between her and Gleb, and if you can cite from it, at 1921, any support for your judgements set out in your Reply 21, please share them. And as I advised by private Email to you, you are welcome to correspond directly with me.

I do not mean to digress from this thread which seems to concentrate on disparaging the motives and prior conduct of the Botkins, but since I pointed out Gleb's reason to "challenge" the honor of certain of the Romanov's for their conduct at the time, and some seem to think the Romanov's fought the cases in Germany, you are mistaken. Learn some facts. The case was with Barbara of Mecklenburg, and learn why it was brought in Germany.

Now, though off point. and I think it was reported on this site a couple of years back, it was I who arranged for the additional tests done at AFIP, and I who paid the related expenses. AND, I will tell you the scientists and military were eager and wonderful, but it was a heck of a lot harder getting around the U.S. civilian bureaucracy than it was getting the very first private contract with FSS in the UK. Peter Gill urged that action for two reasons: 1. They were using what I understood to be a different technique (extracting mtDNA from long-preserved soft tissue was new, and unsure) and had a marvelous new lab. 2. A verified comparison would rule out any compromise in the UK lab, or in the transit period from the US to the UK. That second taking at Charlottesville was arranged without fanfare or any publicity, which is what Marina had tried to arrange with the hospital initially.

Still off point, since I am charged with biggotry for citing "lower class origins," I can report that in 2000, I went back to Europe for further investigation and research, and while there, with the service of a translator, reviewed the extensive research that had been done on FA's family (for purposes of Eugenics studies) during the Nazi regime, and I can't give you exact German terms, but it conveyed to me "lower class origins." That, despite the fact that like many Kashubans, her family had been enobled by Jan Sobeitski for valor against the Turks in 1639. The "Nobility" did not stick 250 years through the generation of FA's reputed father. The social distinctions of those days (WW I) was far too great to have been overlooked by one with G D Olga's background.

Getting over into the Quotations from Bob Massie, I am at a disadvantage since our library and archives were packed and stored for us in our absence during Marina's final medical care in MA. They are not on point here anyway

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 12:54:27 AM
On reading Reply 68, I would like someone of thsoe who complain of Gleb's denigration of Olga to post specifically, with citations, what he is purported to have said or done.

This is not necessarily a challenge, but specificity should be offered to clarify what is being banterred about.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 08, 2007, 01:33:28 AM
In response to Reply 65:

No, you do not answer from what intimate knowledge you pass judgement on Gleb's conduct.

I am familiar with what is known as the "Belgrade Edition," I personally knew Tatiana and the realtion between her and Gleb, and if you can cite from it, at 1921, any support for your judgements set out in your Reply 21, please share them. And as I advised by private Email to you, you are welcome to correspond directly with me.

Mr Schweitzer,

I have responded generously to your question, which you have directed to me. Kindly please accept that there is no more to be said.

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 08, 2007, 02:01:26 AM
On reading Reply 68, I would like someone of thsoe who complain of Gleb's denigration of Olga to post specifically, with citations, what he is purported to have said or done.

This is not necessarily a challenge, but specificity should be offered to clarify what is being banterred about.

There's the well known letter Gleb wrote shortly after the Dowager Empresses death where he accused Olga and Xenia of attempting to defraud there neice and similar such nonsense. Xenia later said that such accusations where "cruel and hurtful" and Sandro wrote of Botkins "vileness" which i'm inclined to agree with.

No respect or understanding for the surviving Romanovs it would appear. :-X

This can be sourced in "Once a Grand Duchess".
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 08, 2007, 02:15:17 AM
In response to Reply 65:

... I do not mean to digress from this thread  which seems to concentrate on disparaging the motives and prior conduct of the Botkins, but since I pointed out Gleb's reason to "challenge" the honor of certain of the Romanov's for their conduct at the time, and some seem to think the Romanov's fought the cases in Germany, you are mistaken. Learn some facts. The case was with Barbara of Mecklenburg, and learn why it was brought in Germany.

Now, though off point. and I think it was reported on this site a couple of years back, it was I who arranged for the additional tests done at AFIP, and I who paid the related expenses. AND, I will tell you the scientists and military were eager and wonderful, but it was a heck of a lot harder getting around the U.S. civilian bureaucracy than it was getting the very first private contract with FSS in the UK. Peter Gill urged that action for two reasons: 1. They were using what I understood to be a different technique (extracting mtDNA from long-preserved soft tissue was new, and unsure) and had a marvelous new lab. 2. A verified comparison would rule out any compromise in the UK lab, or in the transit period from the US to the UK. That second taking at Charlottesville was arranged without fanfare or any publicity, which is what Marina had tried to arrange with the hospital initially.

Still off point, since I am charged with biggotry for citing "lower class origins," I can report that in 2000, I went back to Europe for further investigation and research, and while there, with the service of a translator, reviewed the extensive research that had been done on FA's family (for purposes of Eugenics studies) during the Nazi regime, and I can't give you exact German terms, but it conveyed to me "lower class origins." That, despite the fact that like many Kashubans, her family had been enobled by Jan Sobeitski for valor against the Turks in 1639. The "Nobility" did not stick 250 years through the generation of FA's reputed father. The social distinctions of those days (WW I) was far too great to have been overlooked by one with G D Olga's background.

Getting over into the Quotations from Bob Massie, I am at a disadvantage since our library and archives were packed and stored for us in our absence during Marina's final medical care in MA. They are not on point here anyway

Mr Schweitzer,

For the sake of accuracy, the remainder of your response relates to matters that have no connection with me past or present. You have perhaps combined your reply to other posters and I wish to be disassociated from the your statements quoted in the box above.

Thank you,

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on October 08, 2007, 03:16:48 AM
I too would like to thank Mr Schweitzer for coming here.  He is one of the few people alive who knew any of the major participants in this drama and his views should be treated with respect, even by those who don't agree with his conclusions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 08, 2007, 07:55:11 AM
I am always very excited when a person who actually has some provable connection to the history we all so venerate takes the time to come here and to post.

We have to remember that even though the murder took place almost 90 years ago, there are still those who knew and remember others who actually were alive at that time and who have salient points to make.

We should thank Mr. Schweitzer for taking the time to come here and post for us.  His knowledge of this incident (AA/FA) must be enormous when compared to ours.

We should also mind our manners when posting.  There is good reason to question and to disagree, but not to disparage or slander.


One correction:  the text should read AA/FS not AA/FA

I quote myself to show that I, too, agree that civility should be, above all, first on our agenda.

However, I quoted from Mr Massie for those who may not have The Final Chapter.  Personally, when I read of the immediate reaction of Mr. Schweitzer to the results of the DNA testing by Dr.  Gill, my first thought was "sour grapes".  After a long a complicated legal battle, which was confusing enough to read about let alone participate in, the Schweitzers didn't get the answer they wanted.  But to then begin to talk about "switches" of tissue was preposterous.  My next questions would we "Who, What, Where, Why and When?"  (Sources, please, not conjecture)

With all due respect, Mr. Schweitzer, I wouldn't use the German (Nazi) eugenics program as an example of anything except "man's inhumanity to man".  I am of German descent and I am horrified at waht was done in the name of "racial purity".

And finally, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna was probably the most forgiving and non judgemental member of the Russian Imperial Family.  I believe that she wanted to give the young woman who was claiming to be Anastasia the benefit of the doubt and every chance to prove who she was.  As a giving and caring person, Grand Duchess Olga would have sent those gifts to the young woman as a token of good faith and with the faint hope that the young woman would turn out to be the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna.

There is no evidence that Olga Alexandrovna sent the gifts in support of the young woman's claims.  Only that she sent gifts to someone who was bereft, lonely and in need.  Because Anastasia Nicholaevna was Olga Alexandrovna's favorite niece, I am sure that Olga harbored some faint hope that the young woman would turn out to be Anastasia.  After all, Olga defied the Dowager Empress and the rest of the immediate imperial family and went to see the young woman.  That shows Olga's character.  But when Olga was convinced that the young woman was not her beloved niece, she backed away.  Why should that surprise anyone?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2007, 09:58:35 AM
We have been graciously given a copy of an original letter written BY Olga herself. Here is my translation from the original French and the link to the original letter itself:
February, 15th 1928, Hvidore
 
Dear Miss B***,
 
Thank you for your nice letter. 
 
Indeed, you understand like us the absurdity of this story! More and more, I see that this story is all about blackmail and money. Let’s say I’m mistaken.
 
But how can you believe that her maid, Ms Gilliard, who knows her since she was 6 weeks (and Mr Gilliard, who was as well with the beloved family until the moment they were separated in June 1918 could be mistaken?)
It’s ridiculous as well to say that the grand mother and I don’t want to have her close to us. 
 
What a shame to talk like that.
 
I say openly that my cousin André must have some vile motives to side against us…
Uncle from Hesse is also serene with the fact that the person is not our niece. He has proofs, as you may have seen or read in “L’Illustration” where the photos of the ears were, now it’s a known fact that the ears never change. (small snip)We send you our best wishes. 
 
Greetings from Mother, Xenia, Emilia Jr, Cecilia and Gustav.
 
I kiss you heartily, dear Miss B****!
 
Olga" original letter from GD Olga in French here: http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1075191962;start=371#371
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 10:30:02 AM
On reading Reply 68, I would like someone of thsoe who complain of Gleb's denigration of Olga to post specifically, with citations, what he is purported to have said or done.

This is not necessarily a challenge, but specificity should be offered to clarify what is being banterred about.

Certainly. Here is his letter, as quoted by Massie, The Romanovs: The Final Chapter, p. 183

Gleb Botkin's letter to Xenia and Olga Alexandrovna after the death of the Dowager Empress:

Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Higness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupuous relatives.


This letter is very clear in accusing Olga, and the others, of turning their backs on their 'niece' for money. In this letter he even says what happened to his father 'pales in comparison'! Unfortunately, many today are still holding to this belief that Olga knew AA was AN and 'turned her back' because of pressure from the family. I believe this to be totally wrong, for the following reasons:

1. AA was not AN but FS and she knew it.(though it took her a little time to be sure due to her emaciated condition)
2. Olga was poor, did not even get along well with her sister, didn't get money from the family, and was not helped by denying AA. It even seems to me that IF AA had been AN, she would have been better off to team with her against the family, since she was a 'black sheep' anyway and could have gotten more money from her favorite niece! But of course this couldn't happen since AA wasn't AN. (and if she had been no one would have turned their backs on her!)
3. Olga was not a snooty high society lady. She was the most down to earth and least judgemental member of the family. She had turned down an 'accepted' husband and left him for the 'wrong' husband, one not 'high class' enough for someone of her birth status. But Olga wasn't like that. Even before the revolution, she lived the most normal of lives, going around town in taxis and visiting shops like a regular person (she took her nieces with her sometimes, and they had ice cream) She was more comfortable in mens' trousers or an apron than anything fancy and expensive. Olga was not favored by the family because of her choice of husband and lifestyle, she got no favors from them, she owed them nothing.

There is also a story going around that Gleb was responsible for the story that Olga and Xenia had offered AA a house and keep for life to give up her claim. While I cannot find documentation of this, there is also no proof that they said it, and it does seem unlikely since Olga had no money and Xenia was living off the charity of the British cousins!

Here are some direct quotes from Olga on her feelings on the 'invalid':

From "The Last Grand Duchess" by Ian Vorres, description of GD Olga's (the girl’s aunt) first meeting with and her impressions of AA:

p. 174

When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?]  “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback. A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all- which was not often.  I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family”.

“My beloved Anastasia was fifteen when I saw her for the last time in the summer of 1916. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that. Of course, one had to make allowances for a very long illness and the general poor condition of her health. All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”

P. 175

The Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] remarked that the interviews were made all the more difficult by Mrs Anderson’s attitude. She would not answer some of the questions, and looked angry when those questions were repeated. Some Romanov photographs were shown to her, and there was not a flicker of recognition in her eyes. The Grand Duchess had brought a small icon of St Nicholas, the patron saint of the imperial family. Mrs Anderson lookes at it so indifferently that it was obvious the icon said nothing to her.

continued in next post..


Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 10:30:24 AM

P. 176

Olga Alexandrovna:

“…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson.

“Then again I heard that a party in Berlin, when she was offered some vodka, Mrs Anderson said : ‘How nice! It does remind me of the days at Tsarskoe Selo!” Vodka certainly would not have brought any such reminder to my niece… My nieces never touched either wine or spirits – and indeed how could they at their age?…” 

*(and remember how sheltered the girls were and how sanctimonious Alix was, and how she didn't want her girls exposed to 'decadent' society!, and that AN was never introduced to society because she was underage until after the revolution!)

P. 176

Olga Alexandrovna: “…That child was as dear to me as if she were my own daughter. As soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home, I knew I was looking at a stranger… I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished."


So I think what we have here is a battle between who you believe was telling the truth. If you think AA was, then you must think Olga is a liar, but since AA did turn out not to be AN, that proves that Olga really wasn't lying.

It's convenient for AA supporters to frame up Olga but IMO that's really sad and has no basis. AA had a way of attacking the character and credibility of those who refused to accept her- Olga was a 'liar' who turned her back on her 'niece', Gilliard was a 'liar' paid off by Ernst, Ernst 'treasonous',  Felix Yussoupov 'tried to kill her', Sophie B. was a 'traitor', and according to some sources she accused Lord Mountbatten of poisoning Harriet Rathlef and Duke of Leuchtenberg when they both died in the same year. So she sure wasn't very nice sometimes herself to play the innocent victim.

And as for the 'lower class origin' thing- even if she was of 'lower class' and meager means, that does not mean she is incapable of pulling off a charade as a princess as any other poor-born actress has done. It seems like people who are poor are labeled as stupid and incapable of intelligent thought, or change, and that's not fair at all. Besides, if the message is that Olga would have known a 'high class' from a 'low class', well, se did end up rejecting her! Lying there in the bed, emaciated down to skin and bones and ill with TB, who could tell who or what she was in that condition?

And one more thought, why is Anastasia always held up as 'a lady of breeding' by AA supporters? She was actually a tomboy who cried when she had to dress up, and was not one to be aloof and haughtily toss her boa and prance about. One person once posted that to them AA seemed like an ordinary person acting out what she thought a princess should be, and perhaps this is the case. Back to the real Anastasia, being underage when the war came and stopped all society balls and functions, she never even got the chance to be introduced into society and have gentlemen kiss her hand, so a real AN wouldn't have known this anyway! So maybe AA's high society act was off base after all.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 12:08:18 PM


That is the language for which I wish the writer to establish her intimate knowledge of the denigrated person, Gleb Botkin.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 12:33:51 PM
In Re Reply 81:

Yes that is the precise item I specified, stating the motivation for its being written.

I do not have our archives available here, but think I am correct in recalling that the missive to which Gleb referred was "signed"  by 14 memebers of Xenia's family. I am not sure that Olga even joined in it, but perhaps so.

Of course, later Sandro expalined his despite for Gleb by saying he kept us from getting our money. I am pretty sure that is documented somewhere as better than much of the hearsay and double hearsay of some of the other posts here. It may even be in Sandro's book.

As to the "pales in comparison" attribution; read again.  Gleb said pale, which in the context meant fade. That is, before the event had moved out of memory. Tatiana often critiqued Gleb's English, but it was ceratinly better than the understanding of it by some posting here.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 12:50:46 PM
Mr. Schweitzer, do you know what language Gleb used when he originally sent his correspondence to Olga? Though what we have is in English, I had assumed the original would have been in Russian, since all parties involved spoke Russian as a first language.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 12:52:06 PM
In further reply to reply 68:

The point of my remarks in 1994 was that, given the clear class distinctions of those times, a person of Olga's status would not have for a moment confused the person she visited with a person of lower class origins; regardless of any indecisions on recognition of direct relationship.

Unlike others posting here, I do not impute any motives or qualities or disparagements to those whom who I have never known. I do draw a logical inference that Olga was aware of the "kind" of person she visited, as indeed was the Duke of Leuchtenberg - in writing about his "guest."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 01:00:08 PM
Quote
The point of my remarks in 1994 was that, given the clear class distinctions of those times, a person of Olga's status would not have for a moment confused the person she visited with a person of lower class origins; regardless of any indecisions on recognition of direct relationship

What would you consider the difference between a poor person lying in bed sick and a rich person lying in bed sick?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 01:06:58 PM
Reply to Reply 85:

My best recollection here is that it was sent to Xenia, not Olga, and was in English, as I think (but am not sure) as was the announcement made by Xenia's family.

If you have a copy of The Woman Who Rose Again I think you can check what Gleb said about that.  Of course that may not carry any weight if you are predisposed to judge.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 01:25:55 PM
Quote
The point of my remarks in 1994 was that, given the clear class distinctions of those times, a person of Olga's status would not have for a moment confused the person she visited with a person of lower class origins; regardless of any indecisions on recognition of direct relationship

What would you consider the difference between a poor person lying in bed sick and a rich person lying in bed sick?


In determining their place in the class structures of that time, there would be differences in choices and manners of speech, reticence, forms of response (facial and other). Coupled with the then still prevalent use of dialects, particularly in parts of Pomerm (The region South of today's G'Dansk), there would no doubt have been many other indicia to Olga that would not occur to me in this era.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 08, 2007, 02:49:12 PM
I understand the "class distinction" that Mr. Schweitzer is talking about.  See Pygmalion or GB Shaw's My Fair Lady.  "Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Every country has different forms of language communication in different parts of the country and different strata of education. Until the TV homogenized American English we would not have understood someone from Tennessee if we lived in New England.  (New Englanders are still hard to comprehend and I have lived here all my life!)

However "predisposed" we all are to our own judgement and our own interpretation, Mr. Schweitzer is just as "predisposed" as he says that we are.

I concede the fact that Mr. Schweitzer knew Gleb Botkin and also knew Anna Manahan.  So he has a different perspective from those of us who did not know her and were never in her presence.

My very own reason for never truly believing that AA was ANR was simply this.  I never believed that ANR would act as badly as AA did, treat others as badly as AA did, live in squalor as AA did, or treat herself and those closest to her as badly as AA did.

Tom boy or not, she was still a Russian Grand Duchess and she may not have been presented to society, but she was still being taught by her mother until her death at 17.  Alix was the grand mistress of all things etiquette.  Anastasia may have rebelled, but I am sure that Alix continued to reprimand and correct her.

That and all of the historical research and now the DNA testing proves that Anna Manahan was Francescka S.  It may be simple to exchange tissue samples on TV but not in real life.  I am surprised that Martha Jefferson Hospital hasn't sued for damages.

I have said before that the actual murder room must have been a "mad house" on that night in July 1918.  If anyone had survived, would they be in their right minds?  I can't answer that, but I doubt that they would have forgotten their native tongue and/or their second language.

I am tried of playing "what if" games.  We have the letters and the diaries and we know that there was no money to be inherited.  And now we have 11 sets of bones found outside of Yekaterinburg just where Yurovsky said they would be.

Anastasia Nicholaevna died in a hail of bullets in Yekaterinburg on the night of July 16/17 1918 with the rest of her poor tormented family.  They were shot and stabbed and clubbed to death.

The vast preponderance of evidence shows us that only a very few believed Anna Manahan in her lifetime and those who did so did it their ever lasting regret.

Gleb Botkin is a mystery in all of this.  He did lose his father in July 1918, but Dr. Botkin went willingly with the Imperial Family.  Would it not have been prudent for Gleb to accept his father's decision with grace even through his grief?

My last word, unless someone needs a quote from a source that I have at hand, is this: The people who believed in Anna Manahan and thought that she was ANR had been so deeply involved in their beliefs and her obfuscation and they could not ever stand back and admit that they were wrong.  The torch had been carried for far too long and even with the DNA evidence proving that Anna Manahan is not related to either Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh or Alexandra Empress of Russia, their pride just will not let them let go.  And after a lifetime of believing, with this crusade taken from them, what do they now have left?  Wasted years and wasted money and an empty hole where the active belief and crusading took place.



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 04:31:59 PM

Gleb Botkin is a mystery in all of this.  He did lose his father in July 1918, but Dr. Botkin went willingly with the Imperial Family.  Would it not have been prudent for Gleb to accept his father's decision with grace even through his grief?

To stay on this thread, I would defer to other topics on this site most of that long reply of which only the above quote fits this thread, and my purpose in responses.

I must ask, what is the writer inferring by that last sentence? Gleb died many years before Anasatasia; many years before the development of the  PCR process that made mtDNA identification feasible; he was burdened (yes burdened) with the sense of duty he had inherited to deal with the evidence that was before him, and not least by his own sensory perceptions.

Does the writer have any reason to say that Gleb did not accept his father's decison - and with grace?  And, grace toward whom (other than the Deity) - Yurovsky??
Gleb did not live to read that last unsent letter from his father to a close friend of his anguished choice in staying. This was a family driven by the sense of duty
.

Forgive me this: But today it seems everybody knows their "rights" and makes sure they teach them to their offspring. But few recognize and accept or convey to their offspring their obligations. That was not so with the Botkins, I can attest, and you can find it in their grandchildren of the present generation.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 05:41:38 PM

he was burdened (yes burdened) with the sense of duty he had inherited to deal with the evidence that was before him, and not least by his own sensory perceptions.

So your position is that he felt duty bound to defend her honor as "Anastasia" at all costs, even when he didn't want to? This I assume leaves your opinion that he totally believed she was AN and that he believed Olga was lying?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 08, 2007, 06:19:40 PM
On reading Reply 68, I would like someone of these who complain of Gleb's denigration of Olga to post specifically, with citations, what he is purported to have said or done.

This is not necessarily a challenge, but specificity should be offered to clarify what is being bantered about.

Certainly. Here is his letter, as quoted by Massie, The Romanovs: The Final Chapter, p. 183

Gleb Botkin's letter to Xenia and Olga Alexandrovna after the death of the Dowager Empress:

Your Imperial Highness!

Twenty four hours did not pass after the death of your mother when you hastened to take another step in the conspiracy against your niece...Before the wrong which Your Imperial Highness is committing, even the gruesome murder of the Emperor, his family and my father by the Bolsheviks pales! It is easier to understand a crime committed by a gang of crazed and drunken savages than the calm, systematic, endless persecution of one of your own family, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna, whose only fault is that, being the only rightful heir to the late Emperor, she stands in the way of her greedy and unscrupulous relatives.



From "The Last Grand Duchess" by Ian Vorres, description of GD Olga's (the girl’s aunt) first meeting with and her impressions of AA:

p. 174







I again quote here from Massie the letter that Gleb sent to Olga.  I have highlighted in red the section in questions.  This is quoted directly from the book, so if the word pales should be pale, then we need to do more research into the contents of the book and the original letter.

Since Gleb wrote letters that show his position standing for AA and against the Imperial Family, I saw that as a rejection of his fathers decision to go to his grave without question along side the Imperial Family.  Gleb shows in the above letter, very little respect for the remaining Romanovs.  Not something that I think his father would have sanctioned.

And when did it become Gleb's duty to stand up for AA when others had disavowed her?  We will never know his true thoughts on the matter, but I see a man using AA to effect retribution on the remaining members of the family with whom his father died and who did nothing to stop his father's death.

Accept his fathers death with grace even through his grief, would mean to honor his father and his father's loyalty to the Imperial Family, not keep stirring up impossible situations by supporting a person whom everyone in the remaining Imperial Family knew to be a fraud.

I am truly sorry that Gleb never got to read the last letter that his father wrote.  After it was found in Ipatiev house, where was it packed off to and where was it stored?  However, the letter was not written to Gleb and so would only be available to him by way of the person for whom it was intended.

Mr. Schweitzer, I am trying to understand your fervent support of Gleb and his fervent support of AA.  I am also trying to understand your rejection of the DNA tests, not because you doubted Dr. Gill, but because you believed the material had been switched?

And we still have 11 bodies now found in a meadow outside of Yekaterinburg right where Yurovsky said they would be.  One of those bodies is Anastasia.  No one else would have been buried in that way on that night and then recorded in Yurovsky's memos.

So since one of the bodies has to be that of Anastasia, and that means that AA (whether she was FS or not) was not Anastasia.  How do any of us go about understanding Gleb's motives for supporting AA for so long.  Was if loyalty? (to someone whom no one else in the Imperial Family recognized) Was it compassion for a ailing person?  Was it for financial reward, thinking that should AA inherit (and there was nothing to inherit) that she would share the money with him?  Or was it to undermine and discredit the remaining members of the Imperial Family as to receive retribution for the death of his father?



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 08, 2007, 06:30:56 PM

he was burdened (yes burdened) with the sense of duty he had inherited to deal with the evidence that was before him, and not least by his own sensory perceptions.

So your position is that he felt duty bound to defend her honor as "Anastasia" at all costs, even when he didn't want to? This I assume leaves your opinion that he totally believed she was AN and that he believed Olga was lying?


Annie: Mr. Schweitzer's actions over the past two decades I would think clearly delineate his "position". So do his wife's. Clearly, the couple believes that Gleb was certain about AA's identity as the grand duchess. Moreover, Gleb apparently felt that he was honor bound to support AA as a means of continuing what his late father had started - supporting the Imperial Family no matter how unpopular they were.

It is difficult perhaps for us in the US to understand this mindset, but my own family served the Tsars of Russia and they felt much the same way. The fact that Gleb was mistaken in his belief was a separate matter - he believed as a Botkin it was his duty to protect the Tsar's surviving child, even if that meant fighting the Tsar's surviving family.

It was the Botkin family's many generations of service to Imperial Russia that I have continuously cited as a reason to treat them with courtesy and respect. This point was twisted by others to my "personally knowing the Schweitzers". I have never had the pleasure of meeting this couple, but I will continue to insist they be treated with respect both for their own sakes and out of respect for the many sacrifices made by this family in service of Russia.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 08, 2007, 06:35:10 PM
And since you know Gleb Botkin and are married to his daughter, would you please tell us about the "Most Reverend Archbishop of the Church of Aphrodite?" from: Anastasia - The Riddle of Anna Anderson by Peter Kurth.

One of the best ways to receive tax exempt income in the US is to form a religious group.  It can own land without paying property taxes and, if the "reverend" takes a vow of poverty, and rejects all forms of government aid, he does not have to pay social security tax.  And, of course, there are the non-profit laws as well.

There are more "reverends' taking advantage of the favorable tax codes in the US than we can count.  What made Gleb decide to become a "reverend" and to worship an aged (and mythological) Greek goddess?  Did he have a large congregation?  Did he build a temple or operate out of store front?

Perhaps his own mental faculties were not in such good shape toward the end of his life.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Kransnoeselo on October 08, 2007, 06:52:41 PM
Alixz,

For more information about Gleb Botkin and his religious ideation you can read the just published book by author Frances Welch entitled: A Romanov Fantasy, Life at the Court of Anna Anderson.  She correctly purports that Gleb truly belived in AA's claim as did his sister Tatiana. It's focus is on the core of AA's supporters which includes Gleb, Prince Fredrick, and others.  It does layout Gleb's journey from the time of the revolution until his death in the 1970's in Virginia after having secured AA with a home here in the US.

It is a good read (with only a few noticable mistakes.)

You can also see        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleb_Botkin

Tim   
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 08, 2007, 07:38:31 PM
There are some things we can never know for sure.  As for me I totally accept the results of the DNA testing.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 09:41:08 PM


Since Gleb wrote letters that show his position standing for AA and against the Imperial Family, I saw that as a rejection of his fathers decision to go to his grave without question along side the Imperial Family.  Gleb shows in the above letter, very little respect for the remaining Romanovs.  Not something that I think his father would have sanctioned.

And when did it become Gleb's duty to stand up for AA when others had disavowed her?  We will never know his true thoughts on the matter, but I see a man using AA to effect retribution on the remaining members of the family with whom his father died and who did nothing to stop his father's death.

Accept his fathers death with grace even through his grief, would mean to honor his father and his father's loyalty to the Imperial Family, not keep stirring up impossible situations by supporting a person whom everyone in the remaining Imperial Family knew to be a fraud.

I am truly sorry that Gleb never got to read the last letter that his father wrote.  After it was found in Ipatiev house, where was it packed off to and where was it stored?  However, the letter was not written to Gleb and so would only be available to him by way of the person for whom it was intended.

Mr. Schweitzer, I am trying to understand your fervent support of Gleb and his fervent support of AA.  I am also trying to understand your rejection of the DNA tests, not because you doubted Dr. Gill, but because you believed the material had been switched?

 How do any of us go about understanding Gleb's motives for supporting AA for so long.  Was if loyalty? (to someone whom no one else in the Imperial Family recognized) Was it compassion for a ailing person?  Was it for financial reward, thinking that should AA inherit (and there was nothing to inherit) that she would share the money with him?  Or was it to undermine and discredit the remaining members of the Imperial Family as to receive retribution for the death of his father?



As one reads the tenor of many of these posts, it is to be reminded of the adage that people so often tend to infer motives, and pass judgements upon actions on the basis of how they themselves would have reacted in the same circumstances. The motto of the Order of the Garter applies.

I cited the found letter which (Iwas told) is in the State Archives to indicate that Dr. Botkin did indeed anguish over his duty, and was not "without question" as to his course.

There is a general notion that conflates the term Imperial Family with the Romanov Family, which had been substantially "reorganized" by Alexander III. The Imperial Family was the family of Nicholas II. Dr. Botkin's loyalty and duty were to his Emperor, not to the Romanovs at large, and in fact, he was a "liberal" as that term was applied in the Russia of his day. If you want a better understanding of the Romanovs of that day, research the offer made to the surviving Grand Dukes by Mannerheim after the murders, and its reception. The Botkin duty to that Imperial Family, the only ones to whom their sacred oaths ran, became Gleb's and Tatiana's. The remaining child Yuri, was not involved. Perhaps that concept is too much to grasp for the "me first" generations that have followed. The Romanov intrigues to displace Nichols II are no secret.

Thus it became to Gleb his duty to support Anastasia and seek her broader recognition, which did in fact begin. the "disavowels"from her aunts did not come until years later, after he recognized her at Sion, although Uncle Ernie had his reasons to discredit her claims (later shown to be true)that she had last seen him during the war in Russia (which he denied - but was later painted as a secret mission).

And, pray tell what is to be inferred from "who did nothing to stop his father's death?" Is there no decency left?

My posts are not so much a "a fervent support," as a firm defense against scurillous denigration and disparagement, whether from ignorance or ill intent. Frankly, there does not appear any desire to "understand" by many, only to impugn, by inferring venal or vindicitve motives to another. It is true I had hoped to vindicate Gleb's sacrifices, which are little known and less appreciated. But one could infer we sought prominence, publicity, etc., etc., which Marina's friends can tell you is not her character.

For anyone to gain some insight into or understanding of Gleb's motives, they would have to understand his background; they would have to view his actions, not in the light of what their own motives might have been in his place, as response to need rather than objective of "self."  They would have to have an adequate knowledge of the times and circumstances, and of the persons with whom he had to interact, and be open to reviewing their motivations. Most do not want to do so. It is not understanding or insight that is sought, which is fairly clear from so many of the posts.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 08, 2007, 09:49:07 PM
Mr. Schweizer,

You claim Grand Duke Ernst-Ludwig's alleged "visit" to Tsarskoe Selo during the war was "true".  Please do list your source material to support this claim. To the best of our first hand source research, there is in fact NO evidence whatsoever that E-L visited russia during WWI, and in fact, the evidence we have supports the actual fact that no such visit indeed took place.  I look forward to your factual evidence that such visit did occur as you claim

FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 10:06:45 PM
As to the visit by Uncle Ernie to Russia during the war, I followed the later developments of that, but do not have access to my sources here (as I indicated) but I will contact someone who has those same references and try to get back to you as soon as I can (although it does not fit this thread).

It is somewhta similar to the refutations of her assertions of becoming Honorary Colonel to the "Blue Regiment' (the Siberian Rifles), offered to show her a "fraud" (denials by generals, etc.

Yet, years later the Russian exhibit to this country displayed her regimental badge, and we do have a picture now of it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 08, 2007, 10:15:28 PM
As to the references to the Church of Aphrodite. I would like to caution that the pot-boiler by Welch is not a place for serious information, and the subject probaly does not belong in this thread unless it has to do with the relationship under discussion.
.

There were earlier posts from those who knew Gleb in Charlottesville, and had discussions with him about his church and religion. The inferences about mental decline at 69 would not bear up in the light of those past posts.

But, for the record, the church was chartered by the State of New York as The Long Island Church of Aphrodite.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: lexi4 on October 09, 2007, 08:29:05 AM

[/quote]


As one reads the tenor of many of these posts, it is to be reminded of the adage that people so often tend to infer motives, and pass judgements upon actions on the basis of how they themselves would have reacted in the same circumstances. The motto of the Order of the Garter applies.

I cited the found letter which (Iwas told) is in the State Archives to indicate that Dr. Botkin did indeed anguish over his duty, and was not "without question" as to his course.

There is a general notion that conflates the term Imperial Family with the Romanov Family, which had been substantially "reorganized" by Alexander III. The Imperial Family was the family of Nicholas II. Dr. Botkin's loyalty and duty were to his Emperor, not to the Romanovs at large, and in fact, he was a "liberal" as that term was applied in the Russia of his day. If you want a better understanding of the Romanovs of that day, research the offer made to the surviving Grand Dukes by Mannerheim after the murders, and its reception. The Botkin duty to that Imperial Family, the only ones to whom their sacred oaths ran, became Gleb's and Tatiana's. The remaining child Yuri, was not involved. Perhaps that concept is too much to grasp for the "me first" generations that have followed. The Romanov intrigues to displace Nichols II are no secret.
Thus it became to Gleb his duty to support Anastasia and seek her broader recognition, which did in fact begin. the "disavowels"from her aunts did not come until years later, after he recognized her at Sion, although Uncle Ernie had his reasons to discredit her claims (later shown to be true)that she had last seen him during the war in Russia (which he denied - but was later painted as a secret mission).

And, pray tell what is to be inferred from "who did nothing to stop his father's death?" Is there no decency left?

My posts are not so much a "a fervent support," as a firm defense against scurillous denigration and disparagement, whether from ignorance or ill intent. Frankly, there does not appear any desire to "understand" by many, only to impugn, by inferring venal or vindicitve motives to another. It is true I had hoped to vindicate Gleb's sacrifices, which are little known and less appreciated. But one could infer we sought prominence, publicity, etc., etc., which Marina's friends can tell you is not her character.

For anyone to gain some insight into or understanding of Gleb's motives, they would have to understand his background; they would have to view his actions, not in the light of what their own motives might have been in his place, as response to need rather than objective of "self."  They would have to have an adequate knowledge of the times and circumstances, and of the persons with whom he had to interact, and be open to reviewing their motivations. Most do not want to do so. It is not understanding or insight that is sought, which is fairly clear from so many of the posts.

[/quote]

Mr. Schweitzer,
I find it very difficult to understand the "duty and obligation" felt for the Imperial Family. Although not part of the "me generation,"  I am well versed in U.S. history particularly the 1700s. I say that because my lack of understanding of the duty felt by the Botkin family. That lack of understanding is cultural and not generational.
As to the references of the Church of Aphrodite, which is not relavant to this discussion, that was Gleb's right. Perhaps those who do not live in the U.S. might have difficulty grasping this, but in the country anyone can start a church. Just take a lookl at the long line of evangelists who have done so with Christain mythology. We call that freedom of religion.
I do appreciate your insights, it helps me have a greater understanding.
Thank you,
Lexi
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 09, 2007, 08:57:16 AM


Since Gleb wrote letters that show his position standing for AA and against the Imperial Family, I saw that as a rejection of his fathers decision to go to his grave without question along side the Imperial Family.  Gleb shows in the above letter, very little respect for the remaining Romanovs.  Not something that I think his father would have sanctioned.

And when did it become Gleb's duty to stand up for AA when others had disavowed her?  We will never know his true thoughts on the matter, but I see a man using AA to effect retribution on the remaining members of the family  with whom his father died and who did nothing to stop his father's death.


[b]Mr. Schweitzer, I am trying to understand your fervent support of Gleb and his fervent support of AA.  I am also trying to understand your rejection of the DNA tests, not because you doubted Dr. Gill, but because you believed the material had been switched?[/b]  



As one reads the tenor of many of these posts, it is to be reminded of the adage that people so often tend to infer motives, and pass judgements upon actions on the basis of how they themselves would have reacted in the same circumstances.

I cited the found letter which (Iwas told) is in the State Archives to indicate that Dr. Botkin did indeed anguish over his duty, and was not "without question" as to his course.

There is a general notion that conflates the term Imperial Family with the Romanov Family, which had been substantially "reorganized" by Alexander III. The Imperial Family was the family of Nicholas II. Dr. Botkin's loyalty and duty were to his Emperor, not to the Romanovs at large, and in fact, he was a "liberal" as that term was applied in the Russia of his day. If you want a better understanding of the Romanovs of that day, research the offer made to the surviving Grand Dukes by Mannerheim after the murders, and its reception. The Botkin duty to that Imperial Family, the only ones to whom their sacred oaths ran, became Gleb's and Tatiana's. The remaining child Yuri, was not involved. Perhaps that concept is too much to grasp for the "me first" generations  that have followed. The Romanov intrigues to displace Nichols II are no secret.

Thus it became to Gleb his duty to support Anastasia and seek her broader recognition, which did in fact begin. the "disavowels"from her aunts did not come until years later, after he recognized her at Sion, although Uncle Ernie had his reasons to discredit her claims (later shown to be true)that she had last seen him during the war in Russia (which he denied - but was later painted as a secret mission).

And, pray tell what is to be inferred from "who did nothing to stop his father's death?" Is there no decency left?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 09, 2007, 09:20:27 AM
"without question" - not that he did not agonize over his decision, but that he did not beg to be released from his oath.

The remaining members of the Imperial family did nothing to stop the deaths of any of their own, let alone the deaths of their loyal servants. 

Why would you doubt the scientific fact of the DNA tests?  A "gut" feeling is not a scientific test.

Since you do not know me or my age, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of.  Impugning me on the basis of how you would react in the same circumstances.

I am not familiar with the Mannerheim offer made to the surviving Grand Dukes by him.  Source please?

I am far from being a member of the "me first" generation.  I am far too old.

I don't know what decency you refer to, but no one did anything to try to stop the murders in Yekaterinburg.  Not the Imperial Family, nor the British Royal Family.  Would you not think that a young boy as Gleb was at the time might not feel the need to avenge his father's murder which was, of course, not conducted by the Imperial Family, but was not stopped by them either?  He could not avenge himself on Yurovsky and the other murderers, but on those who, through inaction, allowed the murder to take place.

This is thread is about the relationship between the Botkins and Anna Anderson.  And since it is about that, why is not correct to ask if Gleb saw a way to "make money" or "get revenge" by "feeding information" to AA/FS and then supporting her as an Imperial claimant?

You do not offer any substantial sources in your declarations.  Most of what you tell us is "hearsay" and as a lawyer, you know that is not admissible as evidence in court, (unless it is the excited utterance).  You keep telling us that your "sources" are packed away.  You sound very much like another poster we all know and love who is always telling us that her sources are packed away.

Since you came into this discussion to explain and clarify, then we need more that your "personal knowledge".  Memory is not always clear and faultless.  Unpack your sources and help us to understand.

I mean no disrespect, but I felt plenty of disrespect from you in your reply to my positng above.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 09, 2007, 12:34:40 PM
Quote
although Uncle Ernie had his reasons to discredit her claims (later shown to be true)that she had last seen him during the war in Russia (which he denied - but was later painted as a secret mission).

This has long been held up by AA's supporters as the reason Ernie fought her, but it's a fact that two books alleging that secret trip  existed BEFORE AA made her 'accusation', one German, one Russian, so what AA said was not anything shocking to Ernie. There really isn't any proof one way or the other that the trip ever took place. I don't understand why AA supporters can't just see that the reason Ernie fought her is because she was stealing his murdered niece's identity! Ernie's detectives weren't crooked, they simply found the obvious connection between AA and her true identity, FS, who went missing in the same time frame AA turned up. The Berlin Police, who had been too overburdened by turmoil, strikes and a coup in March 1920 (which the police joined!) to do a proper search and this is why AA's true identity wasn't found sooner. Ernie's men, with the resources and time to devote to just that ONE case, found the truth in no time, a truth DNA tests later verified as right all along.

It needs to be considered, too, that Ernie, and Olga, lost a large number of family members in the revolution, (two siblings each and their spouses, a nephew and four nieces, and in Olga's case some Uncles and cousins too) and they were HURTING, and claimants who they knew were false making bold and inaccurate accusations against them only added to their grief. But no, all AA supporters think is 'oh poor AA', but there was nothing to pity, since she was only FS pretending the whole time and Anastasia lay dead in the mud of Russia. Speaking of a 'duty' to the dead, to doing what's right by your family, that is indeed what the houses of Romanov and Hesse fought to hard for- the honor and dignity and memory of their murdered relative, Anastasia Nicholaievna Romanova.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 09, 2007, 03:05:15 PM
With no disrespect to anyone here or in the world who still wants to believe that AA was ANR, I have but one question"  "What are you going to do now that all eleven bodies have been found in the meadow near Yekaterinburg right where Yurovsky said they would be?"

There can not be two Anastasias!  Once the investigators and scientists release their findings and all of the murder victims are accounted for, how can you go on saying that AA was ANR and not FS?

Even if you don't want to believe that AA was FS, a simple Polish peasant girl, AA could still have not been Anastasia Romanova.

I yield the floor and the thread and even the forum!  I am at a loss to comprehend all of this.   :-(
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 09, 2007, 04:04:04 PM
With no disrespect to anyone here or in the world who still wants to believe that AA was ANR, I have but one question"  "What are you going to do now that all eleven bodies have been found in the meadow near Yekaterinburg right where Yurovsky said they would be?"

There can not be two Anastasias!  Once the investigators and scientists release their findings and all of the murder victims are accounted for, how can you go on saying that AA was ANR and not FS?

Even if you don't want to believe that AA was FS, a simple Polish peasant girl, AA could still have not been Anastasia Romanova.

I yield the floor and the thread and even the forum!  I am at a loss to comprehend all of this.   :-(

I agree with you, but I know the answer to your question from reading things written by several AA supporters. Sadly they refuse to accept the DNA results and believe them manipulated by someone connected to the British royals, and they also don't believe the new remains are the missing kids, they believe it's all a plot by the Russian gov't. So when they won't accept any proof without conspiracy theories, how can there be any hope of ending this? Sigh...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 09, 2007, 10:52:57 PM
I just went back and read all 8 pages of this thread.  (it's something I like to do when things start to make no sense)

The first post is by FA and it looks as if he wanted to start a thread to do some digging into the motives of the Botkin family in helping and supporting Anna Anderson.  Similar to the one in which we delved into the story that Baroness Buxhoeveden stole money intended for the Imperial Family when she arrived in Tobolsk.

The motives behind the support that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin gave to AA are hard to fathom because, as has already been said, there is no written proof.  No diaries, no letters, only Atty Fallows (poor man and his poor long suffering wife) and the Grandandor (?) corporation which was selling "shares" in a non existent fortune.

There have been a couple of books mentioned.  Does anyone have any sources which would help us fathom this mystery and come to a logical conclusion.  A conclusion not based on "hearsay" and files held long in storage.

Obviously we don't have to impugn the reputations of those who were involved, they have done that themselves in writing at the time of the conflicts created by AA and her claims.  What we think about those letters and diaries and other written evidence is legitimate discussion.

It is like putting a puzzle together, but some of the pieces are missing so we can't see the whole picture.  Can any one out there help?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 09, 2007, 11:36:30 PM
... The Botkin duty to that Imperial Family, the only ones to whom their sacred oaths ran, became Gleb's and Tatiana's.

... Thus it became to Gleb his duty to support Anastasia and seek her broader recognition, which did in fact begin.

The sacred Oath which Dr Evgenii Botkin honored was exclusive to him.

An Imperial Oath remains exclusively with the person who uttered that Oath before God with hand placed on the Russian Orthodox bible. It is not transferable.

That Oath was extinguished upon the death of Nikolai II.

The Imperial Oath was nullified after the disintegration of the monarchic system of government, the death of the Emperor to whom that Oath was enunciated and by the death of the person who uttered the Oath. In this case all three considerations applied.

Margarita

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 09, 2007, 11:50:07 PM
In "The Romanovs The Final Chapter" (1995) written by Robert Massie it is stated at p 243:

... "Schweitzer explained ... "We now feel that there had to be some form of manipulation or substitution. Specifically, that means that somehow, somebody got in and switched or substituted tissue at Martha Jefferson Hospital."

1. Do you Sir, still maintain this published opinion?

2. If so, on what evidence is your opinion based?

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 12:48:14 AM




1.  The motives behind the support that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin gave to AA are hard to fathom because, as has already been said, there is no written proof.  No diaries, no letters, only Atty Fallows (poor man and his poor long suffering wife) and the Grandandor (?) corporation which was selling "shares" in a non existent fortune.

2.   There have been a couple of books mentioned.  Does anyone have any sources which would help us fathom this mystery and come to a logical conclusion.  A conclusion not based on "hearsay" and files held long in storage.

3.   Obviously we don't have to impugn the reputations of those who were involved, they have done that themselves in writing at the time of the conflicts created by AA and her claims.  What we think about those letters and diaries and other written evidence is legitimate discussion.

4.   It is like putting a puzzle together, but some of the pieces are missing so we can't see the whole picture.  Can any one out there help?



Goodness this is distasteful for me. But, I just don't want some unchallenged record to be created out of conjectures and prejudices.

1.  Naturally, motives for actions taken by individuals whose personae were formed in a different culture, in a diffrent time, and carried out 80 years ago, are "hard to fathom."  As to the reasons for the formation of the corporation, the answers are probably set out in the Fallows papers at Yale. I think they were set out in The Woman Who Rose Again.   Those reasons were explained to me, but it would be "hearsay" coming from me. On issues of motives, particularly at a distant date, "conclusion" is not likely to be reached to satisfy all predispositions, or even the non-judgemental. It is hard to imagine how it could be "logical." 


2. The two principal persons, Gleb and Tatiana, did write books and leave documentation, the factual contents of which don't seem to be in dispute from any other such records. But, I suppose that will be challenged as well.  There is also the writing of Dominique AuClair (in French), and subsequent interviews with Ian Lillburn (and I suppose others that could be cited). My files have not been "held long in storage," but were stored by professionals who closed our house in early 2006 while Marina was dying in Massachusetts and I cared for her there. That is a bit of a "dig," and uncalled for. As to "hearsay," there is not much else left after all are dead, but "double hearsay" invites dilution. Again, I suggest the Fallows papers, and when finally released, the Zahle papers in Denmark. But, keep in mind this research would be to uncover motivations. The Zahle papers should prove a cachet for future writers, for why would they be withheld beyond their original scheduled release if they simply showed deception, and nothing of "embarassment" to any involved at that time?


3.  If it can be said honestly, and without prejudice, that Gleb and Tatiana impugned their own reputations by their writing about the conflicting claims at that time about Anastasia's identity, then they would be guilty until proven innocent. But of course it can't be said, and it is not so. Discussions about diaries and letters are legitimate, of course, but is that what we see in these posts?

4. Ah, Yes, the "puzzle" simile:  There are no doubt "missing pieces." But, there are also pieces on the board that do not fit the image that so many are now certain they can devine from pieces assembled. And that is as pertinent to comprehending motivations as it is in determining identities.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 01:21:05 AM
This thread is not the place to to respond to questions about my views on matters other than the relationship being discussed.

In direct communications, I do not "duck" those issues, and if I were commenting elsewhere on this site, as I have in the past, I would respond.

If it is my motivation that is to be put in play, that is fair, I am still alive to respond. But, it should be a separate thread.

We are still waiting for an answer to the "intimate knowledge" that supports the assertions in reply  24.

It is tragic that Gleb and Tatiana did not have Margarita to guide them in a proper understanding and perception of their duty.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 01:26:57 AM
I must admit my spelling is terrible at this time of morning
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 10, 2007, 01:34:22 AM
This thread is not the place to to respond to questions about my views on matters other than the relationship being discussed.

In direct communications, I do not "duck" those issues, and if I were commenting elsewhere on this site, as I have in the past, I would respond.

If it is my motivation that is to be put in play, that is fair, I am still alive to respond. But, it should be a separate thread.

Permit me to accede to your request and open a new thread.

Margarita
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Belochka on October 10, 2007, 02:54:50 AM
We are still waiting for an answer to the "intimate knowledge" that supports the assertions in reply  24.

Similarily we await your response to the question posed in reply # 65.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 10, 2007, 07:20:55 AM
It is too bad that the written would lacks the emotional content of the spoken word.

I was (as usual) trying to put out a growing fire.  My intentions misfired.

I believe that Gleb impugned his own reputation by the letters that he wrote to the long suffering remaining members of the Imperial Family.  By this time (whatever his motives) he was on the side of AA.  He was rude and unfair to the imperial ladies. He called their motives into questions at that time.

The motives of Grand Duke Ernst were called into question in the 1920s and 1930s by Gleb, just as we are calling his motives into question now.

Gleb Botkin, regardless of his Church of Aphrodite, was not a saint. As I mentioned before, I question his motives in setting up such a strange worship of an aged and mythological Greek goddess in the face of his Russian Orthodoxy.  I mention again the US tax codes which provide tax shelters for any religion and that is my opinion of any of these evangelical churches that spring up and then (Jim Bakker and others) disappear when their "reverends" are found to be frauds or racketeers.

I believe that there was enough evidence before 1969 when Gleb died to show that his reputation was already tarnished.  And so his backing of AA and his motives for that are open to the same inspection as he made on the motives of the Imperial Family and Grand Duke Ernst.  Even post mortem.

Mr. Schweitzer, I mean no disrespect, but your continued support of both Gleb Botkin and AA are only natural as you were a member of the family.  I have seen family members protest vehemently that their brother/sister/father/mother/ is innocent of crimes that physical evidence proves them to be guilty of.  It is very hard to deal with emotion when long held beliefs are challenged.

Also, on this forum, the FA allows some leeway in what is discussed regardless of the title of the thread as long as there is some connection to the original intent.  If you wish to start a new thread, you should, but many of the questions asked and not answered on this thread (not just by you but by others) are relevant as the background of the story is just as important as the story itself.  Many times we can glean information from a background reference that we missed before and then the actual story becomes more clear.

Non of us are intentionally "going of topic" because all topics are indeed puzzles with many pieces which can be found in many places.

With regard and respect,
Alixz
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 10, 2007, 09:39:31 AM
... The Botkin duty to that Imperial Family, the only ones to whom their sacred oaths ran, became Gleb's and Tatiana's.

... Thus it became to Gleb his duty to support Anastasia and seek her broader recognition, which did in fact begin.

The sacred Oath which Dr Evgenii Botkin honored was exclusive to him.

An Imperial Oath remains exclusively with the person who uttered that Oath before God with hand placed on the Russian Orthodox bible. It is not transferable.

That Oath was extinguished upon the death of Nikolai II.

The Imperial Oath was nullified after the disintegration of the monarchic system of government, the death of the Emperor to whom that Oath was enunciated and by the death of the person who uttered the Oath. In this case all three considerations applied.

Margarita



Dear Margarita,

I understand your personal sensitivity to oaths, since you have posted that members of your family who served the Tsar  under oath did wind up working with the Bolshevik government, but I am curious as to where you obtained your understanding as to how these oaths worked?  Your interpretation apparently worked for some, but there were others who followed a different path. Assuming that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin did truly believe that AA was ANR, it is perfectly logical that loyalty to the Imperial Family would have led them to the actions they undertook --- formal " oaths" or no oaths. And of course, the real Anastasia was an immediate member of the extended Family in the same degree as Olga Alexandrovna (i.e. she was the daughter of a Tsar).  Since she was also the daughter of the last Tsar, it may be that Gleb and Tatiana's understanding of loyalty led them to actions on behalf of the person they believed was also  the closest  surviving member of the nuclear family.

Simon



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lemur on October 10, 2007, 10:24:27 AM

The first post is by FA and it looks as if he wanted to start a thread to do some digging into the motives of the Botkin family in helping and supporting Anna Anderson.  Similar to the one in which we delved into the story that Baroness Buxhoeveden stole money intended for the Imperial Family when she arrived in Tobolsk.

FA didn't intend to start a thread for this purpose, what happened was he closed another of the same topic started by another poster after objections arose from another member, and restarted the topic again, reworded.

Quote
The motives behind the support that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin gave to AA are hard to fathom because, as has already been said, there is no written proof.  No diaries, no letters, only Atty Fallows (poor man and his poor long suffering wife) and the Grandandor (?) corporation which was selling "shares" in a non existent fortune.

This is the most frustrating aspect of all of this. While it appears the writing is on the wall, especially after she was proven an imposter, there is no way to 'prove' anything on her backers because they were smart enough to cover themselves and not leave such things that could have incriminated them. (and if anyone they knew had such things in their possession it's not likely they would ever be made public.) However, I don't think this should totally label a person innnocent when we just don't know.

Quote
Obviously we don't have to impugn the reputations of those who were involved, they have done that themselves in writing at the time of the conflicts created by AA and her claims.  What we think about those letters and diaries and other written evidence is legitimate discussion.

I feel the same way.

Quote
It is like putting a puzzle together, but some of the pieces are missing so we can't see the whole picture.  Can any one out there help?



This is what everyone has been trying to do for years. I had assumed, incorrectly, that knowing AA wasn't Anastasia would be able to help clear most of the questions up since we are now able to find out who was right or wrong. It is most unfortunate that some still refuse to accept the reality of the results and continue to drag out the same old litany of AA backing positions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Lemur on October 10, 2007, 10:28:34 AM


 My files have not been "held long in storage," but were stored by professionals who closed our house in early 2006 while Marina was dying in Massachusetts and I cared for her there.

Is Marina gone? I was not aware of that, and I am sorry for your loss. My condolences.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 12:49:46 PM
As to reply 65:

I believe I have responed by admitting I mistook reply 21 for 24, which remains unsupported here.

As to the recent "discoveries" reported, that is off topic, is it not? And I so replied.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 10, 2007, 12:53:13 PM
The motives of anyone who believed in AA before the DNA testing and conclusive proof that she was not ANR are always going to be in question.  Because there was no firm way to assess the case, even the German Courts could not come up with a clear and positive verdict.

But the motives of those who live now, after the finding of all eleven bodies and the DNA testing on those bodies and on the tissue sample from AA, are even more in question. (and that is already another topic).

So - was Gleb loyal?  Was he running a scam?  Was he vindictive, as I have suggested, and trying to cause more suffering to the family that did nothing to save their own, let alone his father?  Did he believe that he was "owed" a portion of the "Imperial fortune" because of the way his father died?

Or was he just trying to hang onto something or some one who could (in his opinion) evoke the past that had vanished?

When he died in 1969, did he leave any papers that have not yet been made public?  Is his Apostolic Church of Aphrodite still in existence or did it die with him?  Was it truly a church or a tax shelter?

Many times the first reactions of those who interviewed Frauline Unbekant and who later revised those reactions are cited and proof that the interviewers were "paid off" of threatened in some way to disavow her being ANR.  Could it just have been "wishful thinking" and a sincere desire to see that some one, any one survived that horrible night.

I am sure that all who went to interview her had the best of intentions and the fervent hope that she would be who she claimed to be.  They found only fragments of what they looked for and even those fragments were a stretch to put together and believe.  I don't believe that any of those who interviewed her changed their opinions without very deep and cautious thought.

One more thing that has always "bugged" me.  While I know that cremation is a common means of burial in some cultures, could someone tell me if a "truly believing grand duchess" would have wished herself to be cremated?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 01:43:15 PM




This is the most frustrating aspect of all of this. While it appears the writing is on the wall, especially after she was proven an imposter, there is no way to 'prove' anything on her backers because they were smart enough to cover themselves and not leave such things that could have incriminated them. (and if anyone they knew had such things in their possession it's not likely they would ever be made public.) However, I don't think this should totally label a person innnocent when we just don't know.
Quote


That is the closeset to a honest summary here of the tenor of the objectives of most of these posts, whether or not artfully framed.

"Innocent" of what; inferred motivations? Should not inferences be probative before "innocence" comes into question?

Note, e.g, the innuendo about "tax shelters" and  "The Church of Aphrodite,"  and the implications of comparisons to others.
Gleb was not supported financially by his religious activities. We supported him and provided his dwelling in Charlottesville, our former home from 1957 - 1959.
From  his not abundant support from us, he paid for the maintenance of his chapel, the printing of his work, and much else. He insisted to Marina that he not be claimed as a dependent. He had no income, nor did the church, other than insignificant petty cash donations from visitors. I am not aware he ever filed the necessary forms to claim any tax status. After Glebs death, August Richard tenderd a memorial gift to the Church, which we never cashed.

Is that sufficient on that innuendo?

As to interest in any monies that might come through or from Anastasia, there is available in Germany Gleb's official written disclaimer for himself and his heirs, of any benefits that might flow from her Will (which I have), or otherwise from her estate. A copy may be located by contacting M. Phillip Remy in Munich. Realizing it will be taken as "hearsay," I do assert that Gleb wanted nothing from her, or through her, but only for her.




Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 01:58:33 PM
Sorry I don't know why that last post came out in that format.  RRS
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on October 10, 2007, 02:25:00 PM
Dear Richard, I did not realize that your precious Marina had died, even tho I knew how very sick she was.  I am so very sorry, I know your heart is broken.

I just feel like I always have, that people are picking on you unnecessarily on this forum and I want you to know that there are a number of us that don't agree with their accusations and are embarassed by them.  I don't believe that they "want to understand" so much as accuse because of their postings on other subjects of this forum.

I think you are wonderful to try and answer their many questions, but I assure you that no matter what you can say they are not going to leave it alone, or to "understand". 

Personally I would be interested in stories of Gleb Botkin and his family, humanities.  It is so interesting that you actually knew him and as a member of his family thru Marina you were privy to his family life.

Keep up your courage,

Arleen

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 10, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
I am always very excited when a person who actually has some provable connection to the history we all so venerate takes the time to come here and to post.

We have to remember that even though the murder took place almost 90 years ago, there are still those who knew and remember others who actually were alive at that time and who have salient points to make.

We should thank Mr. Schweitzer for taking the time to come here and post for us.  His knowledge of this incident (AA/FA) must be enormous when compared to ours.

We should also mind our manners when posting.  There is good reason to question and to disagree, but not to disparage or slander.


Dear Richard, I did not realize that your precious Marina had died, even tho I knew how very sick she was.  I am so very sorry, I know your heart is broken.

I just feel like I always have, that people are picking on you unnecessarily on this forum and I want you to know that there are a number of us that don't agree with their accusations and are embarrassed by them.  I don't believe that they "want to understand" so much as accuse because of their postings on other subjects of this forum.

I think you are wonderful to try and answer their many questions, but I assure you that no matter what you can say they are not going to leave it alone, or to "understand". 

Personally I would be interested in stories of Gleb Botkin and his family, humanities.  It is so interesting that you actually knew him and as a member of his family thru Marina you were privy to his family life.

Keep up your courage,

Arleen



If this is what he was truly doing, I would also be interested.  But he is answering "selected questions" and ignoring others.

But as to our questions "picking on" Mr. Schweitzer which result in "embarrassment" of other posters - is Mr. Schweitzer not just a man regardless of whom he knew and whom he was married to?  Do we now not have the right to ask questions?  Or do we need to "venerate" him as many "venerate" AA?

Why is it wrong of me to ask about Gleb's financial positions and his formation of his "church" which would seem to go against his Orthodox training. 

And why can't I get an answer about the cremation of Russian Orthodox believers?

It is good to know that he signed off on any inheritance that he might get from AA. That is a salient point which along with other verifiable information, would go a long way to proving that Gleb had no ulterior motive.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on October 10, 2007, 02:57:06 PM
My point exactly Alixz....

What is wrong with veneration of a human being?  Richard is HISTORY IN PERSON.  Leave him alone personally and let him share with us what he wants to....

Respect of anyone is a good thing. 

Arleen
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 10, 2007, 02:57:54 PM
Quote
Eastern Orthodox and others who forbid cremation

On the other hand, some branches of Christianity still oppose cremation, including some minority Protestant groups.[28] Most notably, the Eastern Orthodox Churches forbid cremation. Exceptions are made for circumstances where it may not be avoided (when civil authority demands it, or epidemics) or if it may be sought for good cause, but when a cremation is willfully chosen for no good cause by the one who is deceased, he or she is not permitted a funeral in the church and may also be permanently excluded from liturgical prayers for the departed. In Orthodoxy, cremation is a rejection of the dogma of the general resurrection, and as such is viewed harshly.[29][30]

This is from Wikipedia. It took me five, perhaps ten, seconds to access.

If the purpose of the question is to imply that AA could not have been ANR because she chose cremation --- well, perhaps we shall never know what a "truly believing" Grand Duchess would have chosen had she undergone what Anastasia Manahan claimed to have lived through. People who knew her in Charlottesville described her faith as more eclectic than simply Orthodox beliefs. I am unsure as to Olga Alexandrovna's religious beliefs at the end of her life, but certainly there was a fair amount of disparity among the members of the Imperial Family before the war. Even Nicholas and Alexandra put their faith in charlatans upon occasion. Would a "truly believing" Orthodox Tsar have had much truck with M. Philippe?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 10, 2007, 03:30:47 PM
OK,

So as to try to keep some semblance of discussion here:

Gleb Botkin had no financial interest in Anna Manahan being ANR. We may take Mr. Schweitzer's good word on that without resorting to obtaining the documents he cited, at least in my opinion.

Gleb's church was not a tax shelter nor source of income.  These questions are now answered.

Thank you Mr. Schweitzer.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 10, 2007, 03:57:41 PM
Quote
(by FA)Gleb Botkin had no financial interest in Anna Manahan being ANR. We may take Mr. Schweitzer's good word on that without resorting to obtaining the documents he cited, at least in my opinion.

So we can consider this his answer, in his personal opinion, to the best of his knowledge, yes. But this still does not rule out that there may have been things of which he was not aware, even years before they met,  isn't that possible? Though I do understand this is his 'final answer' and we are not to ask him again, this really doesn't put an end to the possibilities in speculation. Is it okay to continue the subject or not?

While I was aware that he did sign over anything from her will, this did not rule out that, in the past, before she was in Charlottesville, he may have been able to make money from other ways, such as writings about her, and Grandanor corp. Is this something we have to totally abandon?

Quote
(by Alixz)But as to our questions "picking on" Mr. Schweitzer which result in "embarrassment" of other posters - is Mr. Schweitzer not just a man regardless of whom he knew and whom he was married to?  Do we now not have the right to ask questions?  Or do we need to "venerate" him as many "venerate" AA?

I also wanted to say NO ONE is 'picking' on him. We have all been very fair and kind and careful and have asked honest questions to which we would like to get answers. He has graciously decided to come here and talk to us, so why is it a bad thing to bring up issues other than 'oh you're so wonderful thanks for coming' as some posters feel is the only appropriate comment? All of us who come here are posting on the same level playing field, famous, not famous, related to famous, scholar, world traveler or just plain Joe. Right?

I also don't know what Arleen means 'embarrassment for certain posters.' Does she mean we are only disagreeing so we won't be wrong? Do you not consider that we really don't think we are? This is as bad as AA supporters thinking the British royals have to cover up AA being AN so they won't be embarrassed! In the vernacular of my teenage daughter, uhhh....no.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 10, 2007, 04:54:06 PM
Very well, Annie has a reasonable point.

Mr. Schweitzer, to the best of your personal knowledge, prior to the signing over of financial interest, as you have stated, at any time prior did Gleb have any actual financial interest in Anna Manahan, her story or claims or did he hope to gain financially at any time from his support of her claim to be ANR.

I do trust that you understand no personal insult or offense is meant to anyone in the Botkin family by these questions, rather, the genuine  motivation for Gleb's support of Anna Manahan is what is hoped to be learned.

Thank you for your time here.

For continued questions, I think those asking should endeavor to keep the questions direct and to the point, as I have tried to do here.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 10, 2007, 05:48:04 PM
I agree, questions direct and to the point would be most appropriate.

I understand where Arleen is coming from. People can be very rude online in a way that they would never be rude in person. A degree of civility and respect for everyone would be most welcome on this Forum (and that's not to say we don't already have it at times).

With regard to Mr. Schweitzer, I think I speak for most of us when I say how profoundly sorry we are to learn he has lost his beloved wife.

If we are lucky, he may agree to continue to post here, and I hope he will be treated kindly and respectfully.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 10, 2007, 06:34:25 PM
I don't believe that any one is "picking on" Mr. Schweitzer personally.

We just have some questions about his devotion to AA and the belief that she was ANR.

And we have all had questions about Gleb and Tatiana Botkin and their rolls in the whole AA story.  If he has the answers, why can't we ask him?

And in some way, we are all a part of history.  He just happens to be a part of the particular history that we came here to study and talk about.  That might make him special to some of us, however it is like AA being special to some of us and the rest of the world says "who?".

I would truly like to hear about his relationship with Gleb and with Marina.  How and why they sent money to AA when she was in Germany and so on and so forth.  Why did Gleb depend on his family for his support and not work for himself?  That sort of thing?



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 10, 2007, 08:02:58 PM
Alixz,
You have every right to ask such questions of Mr Schweitzer in a respectful manner. I really dont think anyone has taken your specific questions to be out of line.  you may be taking personally comments perhaps meant for others.

FA
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 10, 2007, 08:17:53 PM
Thanks FA for allowing my question. I also hope I am not one who anyone thinks has been rude, I thought I have been very careful and considerate in my posts. If any are out of line please let me know.

I really don't want to be rude or hurtful to anyone or their family, but I have had hard time accepting that Gleb NEVER profited from AA's claim as AN, even if just to help her claim at the time financially so they could continue to fight for a possible big payoff if they won.  While he and Fallows did not profit from Grandanor in the end,  it must have been a goal in the beginning. Not getting anything in her will really doesn't rule out any hope for gain, not only because she ended up outliving him, but because she could still have found a way to channel money to him while she was still alive in the event of winning a 'fortune' which was after all the goal of the court case. I hope everyone can understand how it appears that way to those examining the case, though I do understand how everyone wants to protect the memory of a late loved one. Sadly I don't think we can ever completely solve the AA mystery without digging into some things the dead would have wanted to stay buried. (I even dug around more than some thought I should have when researching my own ancestors, finding a few skeletons in the closet, but that's the only way to get the whole story)
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 10, 2007, 10:04:14 PM
I had just spent abou an hour carefully replying to the suggestion and question in the Reply of the FA, only to have the site "flash off" as I tried to post, wiping out my reply.

When my frustration ebbs, sometime tomorrow, I will try to repeat the material and in my non-techie way post it.

Ihere, I will only repeat the first lines, rather than the answers  I gave.

I do not feel "picked" on. Within the topic, anyone is free to post inferences about my actions, motivations or my character. I am still among the living.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 10, 2007, 10:13:35 PM
Thanks FA for allowing my question. I also hope I am not one who anyone thinks has been rude, I thought I have been very careful and considerate in my posts. If any are out of line please let me know.

Not getting anything in her will really doesn't rule out any hope for gain, not only because she ended up outliving him, but because she could still have found a way to channel money to him while she was still alive in the event of winning a 'fortune' which was after all the goal of the court  case. I hope everyone can understand how it appears that way to those examining the case, though I do understand how everyone wants to protect the memory of a late loved one.

Ergo my question about the formation of a church which would have had tax free status under the very "friendly" US tax code.  What better way to channel money than through non profit organization which could own land and not pay property taxes and the "reverend" could even take a "vow of poverty" (which is seems that Gleb may have done or else why live off his relatives instead of working) and avoid social security tax.

There is so little selflessness in this world (no clones of Mother Theresa yet) that it is almost impossible to separate the motive of greed and Imperial wealth from any other motive that could have been had.

I said that I was too old to part of the "me first" generation, but I was part of the "question the establishment" generation of the sixties.  We questioned and rejected everything.  So I still, as a proper child of the sixties, question and question and question.

If someone doesn't want to answer my questions, that is, of course, their right.  But I would like to get some solid sources.

Mr. Schweitzer, was AA's will ever published?  Was it ever probated?  Did she actually own anything of value to leave?  If it was published and is now public record and public domain, I for one, would like to have you post it here so that we can all see what her last wishes were.  That might shed a great deal of light on the woman herself and why others believed in her so much.

With regard and respect,
Alixz



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on October 11, 2007, 07:14:44 AM
Alixz has it ever occured to you that Gleb Botkin might not have been able to work and that is why Mr & Mrs Schweitzer supported him?   I imagine that a state pension wouldn't amount to much - it certainly doesn't here.  Many people help their elderly parents out - what is odd about that?   Also,  I don't know much about his health in later years but from what I read I assumed it was poor.   

In Gleb's time people were not as selfish as they are today.    Why does there have to be an ulterior motive to everything he did?  I just don't understand this fixation that some people have about him only doing things in order to profit.

If AA's will is in the public domain, surely any of us could look it up for ourselves?  That would certainly be the case in Britain.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Alixz on October 11, 2007, 08:54:51 AM
Because Anna Anderson was not Anastasia.  Someone had to have helped her over the years, even with the books and magazines she would have had access to, for her to have had any "inside" knowledge of the Imperial Family. What other reason would someone have for helping an impostor?

At that time Gleb was employed as a novelist and illustrator.  From Kurth The Riddle of Anna Anderson chapter 9, page 199:  "  At the end of April 1927, he was invited by the North American Newspaper Alliance in New York to travel to Castle Seeon for a meeting with Anastasia.  In return for his expenses, of course, a story was expected."

And as to whom could have alerted AA to the "funny animals" that Gleb drew, how about his sister Tatiana?  She was with AA for a while before Gleb came to Europe to see her.

Gleb did have a heart condition, and Kurth describes him as "chain smoking". So as to his health at the end of his life?  I don't know when he abandoned his career to focus on his "church" but by doing that he almost assured that he would not be able to support himself.

And about the DNA evidence which no one can come to terms with:


"DNA used to identify father's remains

Botkin and his wife had four children, daughter Marina and sons Nikita, Peter, and one other son. He also had a stepdaughter, Kyra.[18][19] His daughter Marina Botkina Schweitzer's DNA was later used to help identify the remains of her grandfather, Eugene Botkin, after they were exhumed in 1991 from a mass grave discovered in the woods near Yekaterinburg. Schweitzer's DNA was compared against the DNA of her maternal half-sister Kyra, who also gave a blood sample, to help scientists isolate the DNA Schweitzer shared in common with her grandfather. This enabled scientists to create a "Botkin DNA profile" and use it to positively identify Dr. Botkin. Scientists in the early 1990s were unable to identify Dr. Botkin using mitochondrial DNA, or DNA that is passed down from mother to child, as they used it to identify the Romanovs. Schweitzer was descended from Dr. Botkin in the paternal line and didn't share mitochondrial DNA with her father and grandfather.[20]

Schweitzer later expressed skepticism about the DNA results proving that Anna Anderson could not have been the Grand Duchess Anastasia"

It would seem that Mr & Mrs. Schweitzer accepted the DNA evidence to prove that Dr. Botkin's remains were in the meadow outside of Yekaterinburg, yet rejected the evidence that the same DNA testing proved that Anna Manahan was Franziska Schanzkowska.

It truly doesn't matter what anyone thinks about this subject.  No one is going to change any minds or get any new facts because everyone is invested in one side or the other. 

I am not sure why any of us care.  As a former boss of mine used to say , "In 50 years no one will care." (In this case in 50 years we won't be here to care, but I would bet that some one will still be hashing this thing over and over.)

And I would like Mr. Schweitzer to post the will because he has said that he has the original.  It would be nice to see a scanned in copy of the original will not a typed in facsimile.





Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on October 11, 2007, 09:03:33 AM
Because Anna Anderson was not Anastasia.  Someone had to have helped her over the years, even with the books and magazines she would have had access to, for her to have had any "inside" knowledge of the Imperial Family. What other reason would someone have for helping an impostor?

Maybe because they actually believed her?  Why is that so hard to accept?

At that time Gleb was employed as a novelist and illustrator.  From Kurth The Riddle of Anna Anderson chapter 9, page 199:  "  At the end of April 1927, he was invited by the North American Newspaper Alliance in New York to travel to Castle Seeon for a meeting with Anastasia.  In return for his expenses, of course, a story was expected."

And as to whom could have alerted AA to the "funny animals" that Gleb drew, how about his sister Tatiana?  She was with AA for a while before Gleb came to Europe to see her.

Gleb did have a heart condition, and Kurth describes him as "chain smoking". So as to his health at the end of his life?  I don't know when he abandoned his career to focus on his "church" but by doing that he almost assured that he would not be able to support himself.

And about the DNA evidence which no one can come to terms with:


"DNA used to identify father's remains

Botkin and his wife had four children, daughter Marina and sons Nikita, Peter, and one other son. He also had a stepdaughter, Kyra.[18][19] His daughter Marina Botkina Schweitzer's DNA was later used to help identify the remains of her grandfather, Eugene Botkin, after they were exhumed in 1991 from a mass grave discovered in the woods near Yekaterinburg. Schweitzer's DNA was compared against the DNA of her maternal half-sister Kyra, who also gave a blood sample, to help scientists isolate the DNA Schweitzer shared in common with her grandfather. This enabled scientists to create a "Botkin DNA profile" and use it to positively identify Dr. Botkin. Scientists in the early 1990s were unable to identify Dr. Botkin using mitochondrial DNA, or DNA that is passed down from mother to child, as they used it to identify the Romanovs. Schweitzer was descended from Dr. Botkin in the paternal line and didn't share mitochondrial DNA with her father and grandfather.[20]

Schweitzer later expressed skepticism about the DNA results proving that Anna Anderson could not have been the Grand Duchess Anastasia"

It would seem that Mr & Mrs. Schweitzer accepted the DNA evidence to prove that Dr. Botkin's remains were in the meadow outside of Yekaterinburg, yet rejected the evidence that the same DNA testing proved that Anna Manahan was Franziska Schanzkowska.

It truly doesn't matter what anyone thinks about this subject.  No one is going to change any minds or get any new facts because everyone is invested in one side or the other. 

I am not sure why any of us care.  As a former boss of mine used to say , "In 50 years no one will care."


You bet they'll care!  This story will run and run ...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 10:06:38 AM

Maybe because they actually believed her?  Why is that so hard to accept?

Because she really, really wasn't AN, she didn't look like her and couldn't have had her memories. It seems like, if he knew her well enough to identify her, he'd have known it wasn't really her, even if it took time to be sure as it did for Olga and Gilliard. On the other hand, if he didn't know her well enough to identify her, how could he have known if it was really her, or if the memories were correct? I just can't get over the fact that his sister was close to AA for at least 2 years before they met. She could so easily have given her the info to fool Gleb, or maybe, just maybe, even have cued Gleb in on the charade? Those of us who are completely convinced the DNA tests are true have a hard time not wondering about this.

Quote
It truly doesn't matter what anyone thinks about this subject.  No one is going to change any minds or get any new facts because everyone is invested in one side or the other.

I think what she's trying say is, if the AA supporters don't accept the Romanov bones as the Romanovs, than how can they accept that the bones of the servants, including Dr. Botkin, are with the Tsar, or that they died with the Tsar, and if they accept the DNA proving that Botkin was among the dead, why do they criticize it as invalid in the AA case? You can't have it both ways. Either the bones are who they are or they are not, either the DNA is valid or it is not.

Quote
I am not sure why any of us care.  As a former boss of mine used to say , "In 50 years no one will care."



You bet they'll care!  This story will run and run ...

If those with the agenda of perpetuating the myth of the AA saga have their way. I hope in 50  years everyone will have enough sense to know the truth and not fall for it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 10:23:38 AM

I do not feel "picked" on. Within the topic, anyone is free to post inferences about my actions, motivations or my character. I am still among the living.

I'm glad you don't, because no one is intending to. No one is questioning your motivations, actions or character, only those of your late father in law. Sorry about the loss of your wife, and no one thinks you, her or your children were involved in any charade.

You were very nice to support him when he was broke, in my family or many others such a person would have been considered a 'deadbeat loser/user' and would have been disowned. Since he wasn't of social security age until 1962, I am assuming you helped him before then, and perhaps after. I don't want you to think that your generous deed went to waste, because whether or not he was truly on the level about AA you were still kind to help a person down on his luck. I also understand how you want to defend his honor, and I don't think you will ever believe anything bad about him so really it's pointless to even ask. I just have a very hard time believing he was this selfless saint who gave his entire life's worth to helping AA, it does seem like somewhere along the line there was supposed to be something in it for him. If not, he was hurting his family and not being able to support them because of AA and that couldn't have been his intention.  I'm sure you must have addressed this in the post you lost last night, so I'll wait for your new reply.

On a personal note,  if you don't mind, could you please tell us what Marina's brothers think or thought of AA and her case? We never hear anything about them or their opinion. Are they supporters, did they not believe in her cause, or do they just want to remain anonymous?  I saw one interview on a show where your wife stated that Gleb never let his wife meet AA. Did the children meet her? What was his excuse for not having his family and AA associate? That sounds a little suspicious to me, did they ever think so? Also, what kind of contact,if any, did you and Marina have with AA and Manahan after Gleb's death?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on October 11, 2007, 11:21:27 AM

Maybe because they actually believed her?  Why is that so hard to accept?

Because she really, really wasn't AN, she didn't look like her and couldn't have had her memories. It seems like, if he knew her well enough to identify her, he'd have known it wasn't really her, even if it took time to be sure as it did for Olga and Gilliard. On the other hand, if he didn't know her well enough to identify her, how could he have known if it was really her, or if the memories were correct? I just can't get over the fact that his sister was close to AA for at least 2 years before they met. She could so easily have given her the info to fool Gleb, or maybe, just maybe, even have cued Gleb in on the charade? Those of us who are completely convinced the DNA tests are true have a hard time not wondering about this.



But despite what you and others say there HAD to be a resemblance, even if it doesn't show in many photographs.  Otherwise, Gilliard, Shura, Olga and others who later denied her would not have been unsure at the beginning.  We all know that Shura and Olga agonised over this and Shura had known AN since she was a baby - she even said at the beginning that AA had the same physical characteristics.   Olga said "if you think it is her, I will come" and she went!  That shows they were unsure even if they were convinced later she was not Anastasia.   if AA bore absolutely no resemblance, ill or not, she would have been dismissed out of hand by everyone.  And Annie, you simply cannot say that EVERYONE who recognised her was in on a  scam.

Also, why would anyone waste their time on a scam with someone who was incredibly ill - have you seen the photos of her after her TB crisis? - and actually expected to die?

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 01:31:07 PM

But despite what you and others say there HAD to be a resemblance, even if it doesn't show in many photographs.  Otherwise, Gilliard, Shura, Olga and others who later denied her would not have been unsure at the beginning.  We all know that Shura and Olga agonised over this and Shura had known AN since she was a baby - she even said at the beginning that AA had the same physical characteristics.   Olga said "if you think it is her, I will come" and she went!  That shows they were unsure even if they were convinced later she was not Anastasia. 

When she was ill, emaciated even, it would have been hard to tell for sure. They considered that if she had survived a massacre and then became this sick, she may not look like herself. Take that mouth. AA's mouth was way bigger than AN's, but in a shrunken up, skinny face of a TB patient, they may have thought it only appeared bigger because of the weight loss. Same for all her features, which were all bigger than AN's. They gave it a chance, they wanted it to be her, but after more consideration they realized she was not AN. This is not the same thing as 'turning their back on your niece', she just realized it wasn't her! I tell the story over and over about the lady I know who lost her dog, and when I told her I thought I saw him (a big white Samoyed) on another street, she went right over there, declared him her dog, and took him home. He was dirty, and skittish. She attributed this to being lost and scared. But after she washed him and hung around him a couple days, she realized she had made a mistake, he wasn't her dog after all but one who, in his dirty and ragged condition, had only resembled him, and she had hoped it was him she gave it every chance. I honestly believe this is what happened with Olga and Gilliard.

Quote
if AA bore absolutely no resemblance, ill or not, she would have been dismissed out of hand by everyone.  And Annie, you simply cannot say that EVERYONE who recognised her was in on a  scam.

But honestly, who that REALLY KNEW Anastasia did 'recognize' her? I mean besides the Botkins, whose intentions we are discussing here. The ones who'd been closest to her rejected her, such as Olga, Gilliard, and Buxhoevedon. I know you come up with conspiracy theories as to why they didn't accept her, but in reality they didn't because it wasn't her, and the character assassination of these people at the hands of AA supporters trying to villainize them has been extreme. All the others had only seen her briefly, years ago, or not at all. Also most of the ones who 'accepted' her were people who never knew the real Anastasia, such as the society ladies of NYC. What would they know of her? They were told she was a princess, okay, they bought that. In many cases even the acceptance of the emigres' seemed based more on something that reminded them of 'Nicky' or their old lives in general than anything specific to ANASTASIA herself.  The family was very sheltered and reclusive, she wasn't known well by too many people, and being underage when the war came, she was never introduced to society. So who would know, really? AA was able to use this to her advantage.


Quote
Also, why would anyone waste their time on a scam with someone who was incredibly ill - have you seen the photos of her after her TB crisis? - and actually expected to die?

It was several years before the books and the court case. By then, there did seem to be a financial goal.

One thing you need to know, Ferrymans, is where I'm coming from. Look at my sig, I am completely convinced AA and FS were the same person. There is no doubt. The DNA tests are in, the last of the bones have been found. Therefore when I look at an aspect of AA's story, I can explain it away in some other way than her being AN, because she wasn't. We may not know totally for sure what happened and who was involved, but the fact remains, yes the fact, AA was not AN so there have to be explainations for everything.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 02:14:21 PM
Assuming it is put as question; yes, Anastasia's Will was lodged for "Probate" (as I have been given to understand the German process) with the Notary of Bad Liebenzell.

At her death, a "Certified Copy" was sent through the German Embassy to the Clerk of the Circuit Court of Charlottesville, VA.  That officer saw fit to forward it, without recordation or other appropriate action, to John Manahan, from whence it has vanished.  Those facts are of record in the court proceedings in Charlottesville.

During our attempts to secure access for the scientists to the tissue at the hospital, I was contacted by Freiherr Ulrich von Gienanth, Executor under that Will. He then began the tedious efforts to repeat the original process, this time to provide the copy through me. Had it reached us in time, I would have followed his instructions as her personal representative under Virginia law. By the time we got it, it had been necessary to take a different action to create a personal representative, which I did. Even so, the opponents (Nominally, The Russian Nobility Association) filed a suit against the hospital to enjoin it from granting that access authorized by the personal representative. They were dismissed.

I subsequently investigated the appropriate procedures for causing recordation of that Will in Charlottesville (place of death). That appeared to call for a translation (though perhaps not legally). In the time I had avaible then, I was not able to retain a court certified translator (I think there was only one). Since that time it has not been a priority, but I may get back to it in time. So I retain that copy for that purpose.

No, I will not post it here. It does not belong in this environment. Those seriously interested can go to Bad Liebenzell (as I understand some may have), or wait until it is filed in Charlottesville, where some enterprising "journalist" decides to parse it by exigesis, and with the usually efforts to "make a good story," regardless of the facts.

Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 02:25:52 PM
Quote
Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.

Yes, I've heard this quite frequently from AA supporters. I can't speak for others, but I do not and have never had the time and money or contacts to be able to go all over the world looking for things. I am actually proud of myself for what I have found using only libraries, the internet, and questioning people who know more than I do. Yes, it is only a hobby and interest for me, I am not writing a book or trying to sell anyone anything.

About her will, did she ever change it? It sounds like it's the same one she wrote in Germany. This must mean that Manahan is not mentioned in it, not that it mattered, since he was the one with the money and she had nothing to leave to anyone in the end.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 02:53:51 PM
Continuing with the suggestion and question of the FA:

As to the relationship topic of this thread, I will answer any direct, specific questions to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Since I still "have a life," I will answer as time is available and convenience permits.

If my own motivations are to be examined, that should be a separate thread, and the focus would have to be pretty exact to call for my response.

For those for whom these subjects are not a matter for learning, and dispassion,  but for diversion, you may as well "tune out."
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on October 11, 2007, 03:01:51 PM
Thank you Mr. Schweitzer.  May I remind posters that this thread is about the realationship between the Botkins and Anna Manahan and we are straying away from that.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 11, 2007, 03:59:53 PM
Quote
Those who really want information and knowledge know you have to work for them. I sense from much of what appears here, there is either not time for, or not appetite for, that kind of work. This is just "amusement" or diversion.

Yes, I've heard this quite frequently from AA supporters. I can't speak for others, but I do not and have never had the time and money or contacts to be able to go all over the world looking for things. I am actually proud of myself for what I have found using only libraries, the internet, and questioning people who know more than I do. Yes, it is only a hobby and interest for me, I am not writing a book or trying to sell anyone anything.

About her will, did she ever change it? It sounds like it's the same one she wrote in Germany. This must mean that Manahan is not mentioned in it, not that it mattered, since he was the one with the money and she had nothing to leave to anyone in the end.

Annie: Your first sentence is completely inappropriate. Mr. Schweitzer is an attorney, and even if her were not, he still has every right to not post what he has available here. He has every right, as do you, to keep private anything he wishes to keep private. To dismiss his decision as something that applies "to all AA supporters" is to me somewhat disrespectful of that right to privacy. He said no, he meant no, and there is no earthly reason to disparage him and his decision, or to lump him into a neat little category with people who may or may not share his views.

We need to, as Rob has said, simply ask Mr. Schweitzer any questions we have simply and directly. He will answer what he chooses. That is what I meant about respecting one another, which has nothing at all to do with "picking on someone".
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 04:10:49 PM
Just because I said that doesn't mean I'm pressuring him to answer it. I know he's not going to, and I'm not expecting him to.

Here is one direct question for Mr. Schweitzer, of course he doesn't have to answser it. It does deal with the topic, the family and AA.

On a personal note,  if you don't mind, could you please tell us what Marina's brothers think or thought of AA and her case? We never hear anything about them or their opinion. Are they supporters, did they not believe in her cause, or do they just want to remain anonymous?  I saw one interview on a show where your wife stated that Gleb never let his wife meet AA. Did the children meet her? What was his excuse for not having his family and AA associate? That sounds a little suspicious to me, did they ever think so? Also, what kind of contact,if any, did you and Marina have with AA and Manahan after Gleb's death?

Also, as FA said, there has been some sidetracking. Unfortunately, Ferrymansdaughter and I were getting back into another AA is or is not AN debate. There are already too many threads taken up by that topic already, and this one is not the place for it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 08:24:34 PM
You know, I hope some psychiatristic interested in socialogy can get something out of theses Kinds of exchanges some day.

OK.

So far as I am aware Marina's brothers, Eugene (older)born in Japan, Peter born here, but injured in childhood, and Nikita the youngest did not choose to involve themselves in their father's work (writing) or affairs e.g. Anastasia. How they "felt" about it I do not know> Eugene, after serving as a Chief Quarter, and skipper of and skipper of infantry landing craft in numerous, if not practicaly all amphibious assualts in the pacific (as I understood his assigned theatre) spent the rest of his career as a Master in the Merchany Marine, and was at sea for the great period of his life. Peter from his injuries apparently had a very disordered life and could hardly care for himself, let alone be concerned for his parents or his father's involvements. Nikita chose to stand away from the Anastasia matter, and though still alive would not even provide a dried blood sample for use in the probable identification of his grandfather - leaving me to come up with the Half -sister genetic bloc proposal . I do not fault Nikita. He must have had his reasons, which he did not share with me. So far as I am aware, he did not contribute to the care of his parents in their destitution, though his father stayed with Nikita briefly at one point. Gleb devoted so much of his time to Anastasia during the childhood of his children that some resentment of that may have existed. But, that would be total conjecture. Nikita provided extensive care and consideration for his half sister in the last part of his life. He was not without considerable compassion. I never knew Eugene, and met Peter only once when he needed help. It was the two girls who sustained the family. They were fantastic, and it was that which drew me to Marina after we met. her commitment to them.

Now, what else, and why do you want to know? Please state the why for all questions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 08:39:30 PM
I really should answer the FA's question first, but my button has been pushed.

Reference to a perception of some TV show is really not  a good place to begin a question. I don't believe there was a case where Gleb would not let Nadjerda (Nadine) do anything. That was certainly never the relationship I observed.

On point with the thread, Anastasia did not want to meet Gleb's "Japanese wife." Nadjerda was of course not Japanese, she was the daughter of Konshin, who had been the President of the Russian State bank, and whose signature will be seen on the Russian currency of that time. It was simply that Anastasia had been told that Gleb had married in Japan, which was true. Of course some here will want to imply "he married her for her money." But, if you ever see her pictures, you will know otherwise, as Bokhanov, the Russian historian noted many years later.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 08:43:44 PM
My contacts with Anastasia and Jack Manahan belong in another thread already begun by "belochka." they have nothing to do with this thread.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 09:34:02 PM
Let me now get the the last FA question;

"Mr. Schweitzer, to the best of your personal knowledge, prior to the signing over of financial interest, as you have stated, at any time prior did Gleb have any actual financial interest in Anna Manahan, her story or claims or did he hope to gain financially at any time from his support of her claim to be ANR."

Your question refers to a specific period of time, which was before I knew Gleb or anything of the matter. My understanding from the Executor, and from Marina is that the Will was dictated when Anastasia was advised she was dying from TB in Germany. I do not know the year, and do not have reference to her Will here. But that period must have been after she was sprited back to  Germany following her viist here, at the invitation of Princess Xenia (Mrs. William Leeds). So, the question would apply to the time from Gleb's trip to identify the "unknown" until the execution of the Will. I do know that Marina told me her father acted as soon as he heard that he and Tatiana had been named in that Will, and the date will show on the actual renunciation.

He did not "sign over" any financial interest. He had none and had never sought any and did not want any to accrue to him or his heirs. Gleb had no authority over her person or assets (if any), and never sought any. He held no power of attorney (though others, unrelated to him in any way, have). As to "her story," or claims he had no financial interest in them in the commercial sense. It is well known he wrote articles, not many as I recall , about her, and included the references to his meetings with her in The Real Romanovs, a memoire relied upon by Barbara Tuchman and Bob Massie, among others, but not "about" Anastasia." He wrote The Woman Who Rose Again, after Anastasia was taken back to Germany. While he may have sought compensatio for his writing, as he did for his published novels, I do not think there is any basis for thinking it was compenstaion for his "support," on the contrary, his writing might have been further support to preserve the facts of the events of those days.

So, while I did not know him then or observe the events in that part of his life, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the answer to your question is no, on all counts. I am aware of other opportunities for earning what would have been significant fees for writing a series of pieces, that he relinquished for a commitment that others would arrange for Anastasia to meet with her grandmother, and other similar opportunities he thwarted that arose after the date of the renunciation.

I will try to find out as much as I can about the number of articles he may have written, but the compensation was not his motive. If he had been money oriented, his life would have been much different.

And next for a question about Grandanor?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 11:36:10 PM
Quote
Now, what else, and why do you want to know? Please state the why for all questions.


Just for my own curiosity, since I had never heard anything about his sons or their position. I thank you for the info on them, I realize it's  not any of my 'business' and I appreciate your honesty. I had wondered if maybe some of the family resented the time spent on AA, and his destitution that came of it. I can tell you that would have been the case among my greedy relatives!

You mentioned 'the two girls'. I didn't know Marina had a sister, did she? Or do you mean the half sister, she wasn't Gleb's, right?

Quote
the Will was dictated when Anastasia was advised she was dying from TB in Germany. I do not know the year, and do not have reference to her Will here.

Oh, so it's that old? She never made another one? Just wondering.

Quote
While he may have sought compensatio for his writing, as he did for his published novels, I do not think there is any basis for thinking it was compenstaion for his "support," on the contrary, his writing might have been further support to preserve the facts of the events of those days.

I'm sure he did gain something financially from them, as people don't usually go around writing books for free. Their publishers wouldn't like that, either. But since AA was the subject matter, it was an issue.

Quote
So, while I did not know him then or observe the events in that part of his life, to the best of my knowledge and belief, the answer to your question is no, on all counts.

So that is to say, as far as you know? Okay, fair enough. You didn't know him at the time, so you don't know for sure. Right?

Quote
I am aware of other opportunities for earning what would have been significant fees for writing a series of pieces, that he relinquished for a commitment that others would arrange for Anastasia to meet with her grandmother

Does this mean it was some kind of trade off for AA to meet the Dowager Empress and try to convince her? Do you know anything about Baron Von Kliest being promised fifty thousand crowns by someone if he (Von Kliest) could get Marie F. to accept AA?

Quote
I will try to find out as much as I can about the number of articles he may have written, but the compensation was not his motive. If he had been money oriented, his life would have been much different.

I understand, but isn't it fair to wonder that maybe it originally had been a goal that fell through? Surely he would not have chosen a life of financial ruin for himself and his family. I know that such mistakes can happen that indirectly negatively affect your life and means, I've seen it myself in real life. I guess what I'm trying to say, as kindly as I can, maybe he had 'high hopes' for her, and possibly for himself, that something successful would come of it, but it didn't?


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time? I understand if you don't know the answer to this, and I believe you do believe he did, or you and your wife wouldn't have been sure enough to have the testing done. One more personal question, and of course you are completely free to deny or ignore it, has there ever been a time when you personally felt that maybe he had been taken for a ride, and that maybe it had hurt the entire family? Please forgive this one if it goes too far.

I do appreciate your time and honesty in coming forth with this info for us. Thank you.

Quote
And next for a question about Grandanor?

If you have time, please! And please know that no matter what, none of this was your fault, and no one blames you or thinks anything bad of you because of it.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 11, 2007, 11:54:09 PM
The only specific question I could parse from #154 on point with this thread was:


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time?


My answer is that it was not a question of "belief" on his part. He knew she was Anastasia, just as many would know someone, not just recognize them, or be convinced by some factors.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Mari on October 12, 2007, 01:58:50 AM
Thank you Mr. Schweitzer! You have been very forbearing.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 12, 2007, 09:45:56 AM
The only specific question I could parse from #154 on point with this thread was:


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time?


My answer is that it was not a question of "belief" on his part. He knew she was Anastasia, just as many would know someone, not just recognize them, or be convinced by some factors.


If you really, really believe that, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion, though I appreciate that you have shared your time wtih us. I really believe that it's been proven that AA wasn't Anastasia, so I have to look at it a different way, leaving us at a part in the road. No offense to anyone. It's the same thing I feel about the Mormons (don't want to offend anyone here either). I do not believe Joseph Smith's 'visions.' Does this mean I believe he lied to manipulate people, or that he honestly believed it, or that he had some sort of mental issue which made him believe it? I do not know which of those three is true, and I will never know. It's much the same scenario here. Some people believe him completely, but I don't, so I just have to leave it at that with them. Thanks again for being generous with your time and personal knowledge.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 12, 2007, 01:40:22 PM
By reply 157, I gather I am being waived off this flight deck.

Let me leave something to mull over:

Ever since humans have had enough leisure from mere survival to think, they have been faced with the distinctions between knowledge and belief; that is, belief without emperical demonstration or perception.

Information alone is not knowledge, they are distinct, but substantially all knowledge is based on information and connecting the relationships of the segments of information to one another. Practically all information is gained through the sensory order. as perceptions. But, knowledge requires more than perceptions, whereas what we accept as belief does not.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 12, 2007, 02:25:10 PM
By reply 157, I gather I am being waived off this flight deck.

Let me leave something to mull over:

Ever since humans have had enough leisure from mere survival to think, they have been faced with the distinctions between knowledge and belief; that is, belief without emperical demonstration or perception.

Information alone is not knowledge, they are distinct, but substantially all knowledge is based on information and connecting the relationships of the segments of information to one another. Practically all information is gained through the sensory order. as perceptions. But, knowledge requires more than perceptions, whereas what we accept as belief does not.

Mr. Schweitzer: Annie does not speak for all of us. No one is waving you off this flight deck - or will for that matter. (and for whatever it's worth, I don't think she is either.)

My take on the situation with your father in law is that he sincerely believed that Mrs. Manahan was the grand duchess. This is, of course, only an opinion based upon what I know.

And, I love your point about the distinction between knowledge and belief.

I remain profoundly grateful for your own contributions to this era of Romanov history - and hope you will remain with us here for awhile.

Best,

Lisa
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: AGRBear on October 12, 2007, 02:45:47 PM
The only specific question I could parse from #154 on point with this thread was:


I guess the one thing I'd really like to know, and it's not something you can answer, and that's did he really truly believe AA was AN, the whole time?


My answer is that it was not a question of "belief" on his part. He knew she was Anastasia, just as many would know someone, not just recognize them, or be convinced by some factors.


If you really, really believe that, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion, though I appreciate that you have shared your time wtih us. I really believe that it's been proven that AA wasn't Anastasia, so I have to look at it a different way, leaving us at a part in the road. No offense to anyone. It's the same thing I feel about the Mormons (don't want to offend anyone here either). I do not believe Joseph Smith's 'visions.' Does this mean I believe he lied to manipulate people, or that he honestly believed it, or that he had some sort of mental issue which made him believe it? I do not know which of those three is true, and I will never know. It's much the same scenario here. Some people believe him completely, but I don't, so I just have to leave it at that with them. Thanks again for being generous with your time and personal knowledge.

You didn't know AA.

You didn't  know Botkin.

You didn't know  Joseph Smith.

You know about  each of them.

You gained your opinions about each of them.  As  I and many of  us have.

The difference is,  Richard Schweitzer knew AA and Botkin.

I value Richard's  knowledge about AA  and Botkin and he believes that Botkin believed  AA was GD Anastasia.

Botkin knew GD Anastasia.

And  nothing he heard from her or about her changed his belief.

Now,  it's easy for me to say,  "I never believed  AA was GD Anastasia."  

Did I ever meet AA or GD Anastasia?  No.  

Some of you did  meet AA.

None of us  met  GD Anastasia.

Some of us knew people who knew GD Anastasia.  

Bothkin  didn't have to ask other people.   He knew her.    And,  it didn't  matter the  amount of mintues or hours or days  they were with each other.  They had their own private moments which only they would have been able to share.

I do not think that money was the driving force for either of them.

They were wrapped in their own mystery and no one has the key.

Sure,  we can  have our opinions but  I'm  willing to hear what  Richard has to tell us  and perhaps we  can  learn what he knows about these two people so we can begin to understand AA and Botkin.

AGRBear



Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on October 12, 2007, 02:49:36 PM
Bear and Lisa, you are so right. 

Please don't go Richard.  A lot of us really want to know what you have to say.

Arleen
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Annie on October 12, 2007, 03:34:44 PM
Hey wait a minute, I'm sorry my post was misunderstood. No one is waving anyone off. I only meant the conversation was over FOR ME because I personally feel I have gotten all the info I can gather from Mr. Schweitzer considering his strong personal opinion. This does not mean I want him to go, I do not! Of course everyone else is more than welcome to continue to question him and he is more than welcome to stay! He'll just have one less person to bug him ;) (me) I meant it was the end for me, not anyone else!
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 14, 2007, 12:57:17 PM
Ever since humans have had enough leisure from mere survival to think, they have been faced with the distinctions between knowledge and belief; that is, belief without emperical demonstration or perception.
Information alone is not knowledge, they are distinct, but substantially all knowledge is based on information and connecting the relationships of the segments of information to one another. Practically all information is gained through the sensory order. as perceptions. But, knowledge requires more than perceptions, whereas what we accept as belief does not.

Mr Schweitzer, I think in this case it would be more correct to say "the difference between knowledge and dogma". And history has demonstrated that often dogma can be a dangerous thing to us humans...
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: BobAtchison on October 14, 2007, 03:51:53 PM
It doesn't matter what Gleb "knew" or didn't know.  He may have been personally convinced and claimed to 'know' but he was wrong.  Anna Anderson-Manahan/FS has been proved beyond any reasonable doubt not to have been Anastasia Romanov.  It is fact, not speculation or someone's opinion.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 14, 2007, 08:40:08 PM
Here is an "airdrop" to keep my commitment to follow up on Gleb's making (big?) money writing about Anastasia.

A collector of Gleb's writings advises me there are only two articles by Gleb, one from the North American Newspaer Alliance engagement, and an extract of that in the Readers Digest. There are of course,
The Woman Who Rose Again and The Real Romanovs. The collector notes that some have associated characters in his Baron's Fancy novel with persons involved with Anastasia during her first visit here. If anyone knows of more, I would be grateful to be directed to the source.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 16, 2007, 08:25:42 PM
Since my time for these postings is becoming limited, and I can only scan the topics from time to time now, What I will do is post responses or such information as I have on the one thread that someone set up with my name. I will put this specific post on all the threads that have put recent statements about my replies or questions to me. Earlier, I had copied out only one set of questions from “Rob,” that I will transfer to the single thread. Anyone else who wants follow-up will have to transfer their post to that thread. No guarantees of satisfaction.

I recognize that there is an effort to assure me that I am not Don Quixote, and that there are no windmills. I do not propose to “convince” anyone of anything. I do not advocate. When asked, I have stated my views. Such facts as I have, I share. I state them, I don’t try to prove them.

My reason for posting again, was being drawn in by the calumnies against those now dead; then drifting into two other threads of related topics. For a broader overview, some might consider going back over my posts to various threads on this site over years past. I think they will find they make up a consistent whole. If not, the fault is mine.

Dick Schweitzer

 
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 31, 2007, 09:32:00 PM
For those who may wish to contact me directly, use: s24rrs@aol.com

R. Richard Schweitzer
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on November 01, 2007, 02:10:48 PM
What has happened to all of the posts that were on this thread yesterday???? 


Censorship?   Someone enlighten us.

Arleen
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Arleen on November 01, 2007, 02:17:28 PM
Sorry, it is just me screwing up...PER USUAL!  I thought this was the Q & A as it came first in line.....

I'll now take myself off to the Q & A section.....

Arleen
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 01, 2007, 03:08:02 PM
That thread was locked. You can always email Mr Schweitzer directly.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on November 01, 2007, 03:13:20 PM
you may discuss the botkins and Anna Manahan here if you wish, even with Schweitzer.  I locked the Q&A thread because Schweitzwer was not giving any A, so it seemed pointless to continue to humor his charade.

Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: dmitri on November 01, 2007, 06:30:32 PM
Yes one can only contemplate his motives for not answering so many questions.
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Nicolas on December 30, 2007, 10:27:30 AM
I discovered this topic yesterday and it's amazing to read a lot of things ...
English is not the good language for me to explain you my point of view but i try to give you some elements.
You can trust me i try to be objective for two reason, first i'm not a specialist of Anna Anderson and i was not passionate by this story, second i have so many respect for History (with a great "H") for let some crazy Hypotheses exist ...

Before, i want to thank M.Schweitzer for all he did and i'm glad to read some informations about a part of familly that i don't knew ...
I can imagine for some people here it's a passionate story but please don't forget this is the real life with real person and familly and not a new scenario of an Hollywood's production ... it's very different to defending position before a court than this kind of indictment on a public forum ...

I repaet, i'm not a specialist of Anna Anderson but if you want to make hypothese i can help you for using your brain five minutes.
It seems Tatiana & Gleb met Anna for the first time, after, and only because, there was people who beleived her before them.
To continue and try to help you in your Analyse do you think seriously that they are people with the best position for a Financial interest ? You can see the differents suppositions that we can read ... please imagine what that would be if Anna had won her trial ...

Now i can give you some Facts :
- In my familly I NEVER heard about a potential legacy ... i learn that since i read American resources ... i hope that can help you to transcribe the ambiance in my familly
- Tatiana lived like a nun !! it's not the regard of a lovely great grandchild (that i am but i can be objective also) but the truth ... she had nevermind about luxury and it was her choice !! she had a son with great responsability in France and grandchildren with good jobs but she died in the small bedroom of her daughter's little flat with all the tings she kept to remember her love for the Imperial Familly
- In my childhood's memory, during the hours i spent with her to listen her life in Court, i had never feel nostalgy of Luxury ... she just told me about her proudly to had knew the greatest of Russia
I had read here something about Honour of Botkin's familly ... Yes, i know what is it and i can say you it's difficult, when you are five years old, to understand that ... but that was what she wanted to teach me ... she didn't told me the story like a fairytale
- Popularity ? please be serious five minutes :-) ... There's only passionate people or Exiled Russian who knew who's she was... and her books, for myself, had been wrote for let a memory at her children ...
- About relationship beetween herself and Imperial Familly, i had read her book, and heard her, and i NEVER think that she was intimate with them (my pride could believed that but it's not what she said) ... she let in her books a lot of information that could prove there was friendship beetween the two familly ... Now you can imagine there was intime relationship with a personnal physician. She didn't met Imperial Children every day but you can imagine also that was certainly the principal subject when she was with her father ... there was a lot of admiration and respect and we know the stories of Imperial Familly was certainly like the soap opera the evening with her father.

Now, for myself, when i knew the restults of DNA tests i imagine different things (she wanted believe, political etc ...) but money for me was the last hypothese i can imagine ... and you can trust me, i CAN imagine a lot of things :-) ... but i'm sorry to can not imagine i'm the great grandchild of the brain of one of the most important Trickery of the 20th century :-) ... simply because i knew the person

During my personnal reflexion i told about that with my father (and my grandmother when she was alive) and for them there's no doubt ... she had just really beleived ... i'm sorry for the conspiracy theories :-)
And i know that was the fight of her life ...

But for me, now, it's most passionate and mysterious to know how AA could did that ...


I'm sorry for my horrible English and i hope that stay understandable
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Forum Admin on December 16, 2008, 11:37:17 AM
Am helping a friend with a research project.  I recall reading, and have found several mentions in the Forum, that Lili's daughter Mary/Maria Hoppe stated that her mother admitted her previous recognition of AA as AN was wrong.  I can't find the original source for this. Can anyone help me find this, or know where this all started?

Thanks
Rob
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 16, 2008, 04:31:01 PM
Here it is in Russian:

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 14, 2009, 12:29:25 AM
Here it is in Russian:

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

Can anyone translate for us?
Title: Re: People Who Knew the Imperial Family and Anna Anderson
Post by: Nevey on January 23, 2009, 04:28:10 PM
I translated it from Babelfish from Russian to English.  I hope this helps.

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whoiswho.ru%2Frussian%2FPassword%2Fpapers%2F5r%2Fden%2Fst1.htm&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate (http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_url?doit=done&tt=url&intl=1&fr=bf-home&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whoiswho.ru%2Frussian%2FPassword%2Fpapers%2F5r%2Fden%2Fst1.htm&lp=ru_en&btnTrUrl=Translate)