Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Balkan Royal Families => Topic started by: pablo on April 10, 2005, 11:29:03 AM

Title: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: pablo on April 10, 2005, 11:29:03 AM


   Was Tomislav the bastard son of Gen.Zivkovic and Queen Marie ?

  Regards
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2005, 12:43:18 PM
No,he was not!His father was King Alexander I and he liked Tomislav the most of his sons!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2005, 01:02:24 PM
Although,he(King Alexander I) had illegitimate daughter Elena who was born before his marriage and was very well treated in the family!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 12, 2005, 11:08:38 PM
Are there pictures of Tomislav's  wives by any chance ?
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 13, 2005, 12:28:32 PM
Marc, could you mean "Rose" Kennedy, the matriarch of the Hyannis Port clan ?
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2005, 12:44:08 PM
Small mistake-Linda Mary van Dyke!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2005, 12:45:20 PM
It seems this doesn't work  :) so I will write like this van D-y-k-e
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: nerdycool on April 13, 2005, 06:25:32 PM
Ahhh...... you just have to love those filters sometimes!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 13, 2005, 07:27:42 PM
Quote
This is a rare picture of the King Alexander I smileing,so I assume he would not smile and be so happy with his illegitimate son...


Hes not illegitimate.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2005, 05:46:36 AM
Well,that's what I said!King would NOT be happy in the picture with illegitimate so of his wife!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2005, 05:47:36 AM
I wanted to write son!  >:(
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 17, 2005, 12:28:47 PM
Yes, well, I would like to point out to you that any children born of his wife would have been legitimate. It is unfortunate that the terms "bastard" and "illegitimate" are thrown around so very carelessly in this context. "Illegitimate" is a precise legal term. By law in most countries, the issue of a wife in a marriage is by definition legitimate. None of Mignon's children born during her marriage could be illegitimate in a legal sense, and that is where the term would apply. Some countries provide the presumed father a means of challenging this legitimacy, but even today, it is not commonly used.

I believe you are speculating that Tomi could have been biologically fathered by someone other than Alexander, but even that would not have made him illegitimate. And, I respectfully request that if you must use this term on this part of the forum that you clearly mark such use as speculation or gossip.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on April 17, 2005, 05:49:02 PM
Marie (Mignon) of Serbia/Yogoslavia was not overly interested in men so I find it hard to believe, based on all I have read, that any of her children were not fathered by Aleander I of Yugoslavia/Serbia.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: pablo on April 17, 2005, 10:19:43 PM

 Sorry by the especulation,but,she was lesbian according to the book by Ricardo Mateos Sainz de Medrano.

Regards
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on April 19, 2005, 03:49:14 PM
Quote
 Sorry by the especulation,but,she was lesbian according to the book by Ricardo Mateos Sainz de Medrano.

 Regards


What is the title of this book and what language is it written/published.  I have never heard this tale before.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: pablo on April 19, 2005, 04:32:22 PM


 Spanish,"La familia de la reina Sofia" or in English "Queen Sofia's Family"

 Regards
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Alex_for_King on May 26, 2005, 07:03:44 AM
Quote from: pablo   Sorry by the especulation,but,she was lesbian according to the book by Ricardo Mateos Sainz de Medrano.
[/quote


Hey Pablo, you are going around all Royal Forums and telling everyone that Mignon was a lesbian.

First, nobody has ever heard that before and then this guy comes and publishes it in a book and now it's supposed to be true?? And you post that "truth" on all Royal Forums.

Mignon gave 3 wonderful sons to Alexander. No way was she a lesbian. Iam deeply, deeply insulted that you say that about MY Queen, the Queen that did so much for her people. If you were here I'd punch you in the face!

I guess someone wants to put a bad name to a wonderful woman. A woman that has given all of her being to helping her people - the children, the orphans of war, the invalids, the pensioners, the homeless, the poor etc. Queen Marie of Yugoslavia was a wonderful woman, noble at heart and loved by the people.

There is NO WAY that she was a lesbian. Back in those days it was unthinkable. How on Earth would she allow to give 3 children to Alexander... there is no proof that she was a lesbian, no proof that she had any affairs with women... and now this guy publishes it out of the blue.

Please quote exactly what the author said.

I am deeply angered and insulted.  >:( >:( >:(

For me, Queen Marie will always be special...

Tomislav is the legitimate son of King Alexander and Queen Marie, and Queen Marie was NOT a lesbian.

Stop spreading those lies on Royal forums.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Alex_for_King on May 26, 2005, 07:24:30 AM
Pablo,

You have gone out of line. I am sick of what you are doing on many Royalty forums. I demand an apology from you. Either you apologize for insulting the feelings of many Serbs whom adore and respect Queen Marie, or you quote exactly what the so-called author said in his so-called book.

Here is why Queen Marie was NOT a lesbian:

1. Marie was a religious, God fearing person.

2. Back in those days, gays and lesbians did not parade about in the streets. Those that were gay or lesbian had to keep it to themselves for as long as they lived. Hardly anyone would admit that or even say it, not even to the closest of family. These gay or lesbian thoughts were private, so how would anyone know what someone thinks in his or her head?

3. History has written that Marie gave 3 beautiful boys to Alexander. A lesbian would probably not have children or would have 1, just to give the male heir to the throne and fullfill her main duty as Queen.

4. In the thousands of history books worldwide, nobody has ever come across this "news". I think this is all baloney, in order to discredit the Karadjordjevic royal family and perhaps even to gain publicity of that book and increase its sales.

So far, my arguments indicate that Marie was NOT a lesbian and so, please stop insulting MY Queen, the Queen that I love and adore and who will be enshrined in the memory of the Serbian people as one of the greatest humanitarian workers in its history.

Not even the communists made such monstrous lies. Believe me, the communists have used all sorts of lies about our Royal Family, for 60 years, but you, Pablo, you are the WORST.

If you were here you would NOT be talking about my Queen and insulting my people and my country's history like that. I am tryly angry right now!  >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on May 26, 2005, 07:34:14 AM
Please Alex,calm down!We both know this was not true...I mean that she was lesbian!Don't know about Pablo's other activities,I mean on other boards,but in this case,he said ''acording to a book'' witch means he read something!I posted several times something witch I read in some book,but in the end some things were not true,so,of course,a book in not a reliable source these days...Please,don't get insulted,just put your own reasons for opposite opinion!Thanks
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 26, 2005, 02:00:31 PM
I know that for some, including our Alex For King, to say that Queen Marie of Yugoslavia was a lesbian would make her a "bad woman". Not everyone shares this opinion, and possibly Pablo is one of these people - as am I. So, Alex, please understand that it is possible no insult was intended towards your queen.

Also understand that, for centuries, gay and lesbian royals were to one degree or another forced to live personal lives that were not in accordance with their preferences. Many of these people sired or gave birth to children out of a sense of duty - and in some cases out of a desire to have children - while remaining gay or lesbian in their hearts. This, in my opinion, would have been an act of personal heroism on their parts.

That said, I don't know of any conclusive evidence that Mignon was lesbian. It has been published in books that she was, but I say the jury is still out at the moment.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Alex_for_King on May 27, 2005, 01:20:16 AM
[quote author=Marc
Please Alex,calm down!We both know this was not true...I mean that she was lesbian!Don't know about Pablo's other activities,I mean on other boards,but in this case,he said ''acording to a book'' witch means he read something!I posted several times something witch I read in some book,but in the end some things were not true,so,of course,a book in not a reliable source these days...Please,don't get insulted,just put your own reasons for opposite opinion!Thanks[/quote]


Sorry. I got a bit carried away with my emotions. On other Boards, Pablo would drop in a conversation about Queen Marie and say something like - "excuse me for dropping in, but Queen Marie was a lesbian according to a book..." and then everyone starts talking about that, instead of the real issue - what Queen Marie had done for her people and how the people loved her.

And when I saw that happen here again, I simply got infuriated.

Once again I apologize to all of you good folks for my outburst. Please forgive me.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Alex_for_King on May 27, 2005, 01:32:53 AM
[quote author=LisaDavidson I know that for some, including our Alex For King, to say that Queen Marie of Yugoslavia was a lesbian would make her a "bad woman". Not everyone shares this opinion, and possibly Pablo is one of these people - as am I. So, Alex, please understand that it is possible no insult was intended towards your queen.
quote]

Dear Lisa,

I know there is that whole liberal concept in the West, but here in Serbia we are still not ready to accept that concept. We are a patriarchal society, not as much as before, of course, but we still are, and our Church has very strong issues regarding homosexuality.

Just when the people of Serbia are rediscovering their Royals, their history, in a positive light, after 60 years of communism, things like - "oh, you know, your most beloved Queen of the modern era was a lesbian" would totally turn off any desire to re-establish the Monarchy. Particularly since there is NO PROOF that Queen Marie was a lesbian, but the damage is done just by saying it.

I have nothing against homosexuals, I have seen them hold hands in the streets (in Canada), well, the world seems to be going that way, they seem to be getting more attention in the media, in politics etc, but here in Serbia we are still not ready for that kind of stuff, being appraised in public, although we have homosexuals, of course.

We come from different societies and backgrounds. Ours is a bit more Christian while the West seems to have lost its Christianity. I do not wish to get into a religious, moral or political debate... everyone should live a life they see fit, but I am just saying, we come from different countries, different backgrounds, religions, etc.

What irritates me is when people say things that they have no proof of. I can say I had lunch with a Martian, I can have someone print it, but that does not mean it's true.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on May 27, 2005, 08:44:10 AM
Quote


That said, I don't know of any conclusive evidence that Mignon was lesbian. It has been published in books that she was, but I say the jury is still out at the moment.


Lisa,

If we are extending "courtesy" to Prince Charles of Wales then the same "courtsey" must be extended to Queen Marie of Yugoslavia.  Unlike Prince Charles Mignon is no longer with us and therefore cannot defend herself.  Mignon's alledged sex life had no dynastic implications and therefore does not belong on this forum.

If we must discuss someones sex life that has no Dynastic implications then please tell all AP Forum members they have permission to discuss my sex life down to the last worthless and minute detail.

TampaBay


Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 28, 2005, 01:36:00 AM
Quote

Lisa,

If we are extending "courtesy" to Prince Charles of Wales then the same "courtsey" must be extended to Queen Marie of Yugoslavia.  Unlike Prince Charles Mignon is no longer with us and therefore cannot defend herself.  Mignon's alledged sex life had no dynastic implications and therefore does not belong on this forum.

If we must discuss someones sex life that has no Dynastic implications then please tell all AP Forum members they have permission to discuss my sex life down to the last worthless and minute detail.

TampaBay




TB: As moderator of this part of the Forum, I am not going to exclude discussion of any Balkan royal's sexuality. The Prince of Wales' sexuality has no place on the Balkan Royals' area of the Forum except very peripherally, and actually, with tongue in my cheek, neither does yours, no matter how interesting it may be.

Historians usually have to deal with analyzing people's behaviors who are no longer with us. I try to be fair when writing about the "dearly departed" but not everyone is so constrained.

As to the whole "Mignon was gay" issue, my overall direction to the Forum is - lighten up. No one can prove this, the lady is dead, so it's just speculation. But, people saying she might have played for a certain team might not be intending to insult her or her memory.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on May 28, 2005, 07:53:08 AM
Quote

TB: As moderator of this part of the Forum, I am not going to exclude discussion of any Balkan royal's sexuality. The Prince of Wales' sexuality has no place on the Balkan Royals' area of the Forum except very peripherally, and actually, with tongue in my cheek, neither does yours, no matter how interesting it may be.

Historians usually have to deal with analyzing people's behaviors who are no longer with us. I try to be fair when writing about the "dearly departed" but not everyone is so constrained.

As to the whole "Mignon was gay" issue, my overall direction to the Forum is - lighten up. No one can prove this, the lady is dead, so it's just speculation. But, people saying she might have played for a certain team might not be intending to insult her or her memory.


Lisa,

You are correct!  However, you and I are are from stable countries.  It is easy to forget (when you live in the UK & USA) that other members of this forum are still building and re-building their countries and see their former monarch's as one of many keys to construction of democracy.

I personally make every effort to refrain from publicly discussing any Royal "Fairy Tales" because it does not effect a person's ability to lead, reign or rule.

I am sorry and apologize herewith if I in any way presented the idea that I was in any way requesting censorship or curtailment of free speech.  

TampaBay



Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: L. on July 30, 2005, 02:49:31 PM
  Alex for King, Tampa Bay, you are complite right! Mignon was NOT lesbian! That is nonsense!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marlene on July 30, 2005, 04:40:25 PM
Alex,  

That Mignon was probably bi-sexual is not news, nor it is shocking.  A percentage of the population is gay.  It's genetic.  The late Prince Paul was certainly gay.  

Being gay or Lesbian does not diminish who a person is, nor does it diminish Mignon's devotion to Serbia.  (but she was not a good mother, and, sadly, did not know how to relate to her children, especially after exile.  She was largely estranged from Peter, for example.  In her later years, in England, Mignon, always a bit eccentric, was far more mannish in appearance and dress, and she shared her small home with another woman.  

But it doesn't change who she was.   Not at all.  
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marlene on July 30, 2005, 04:41:45 PM
Quote
Princess Margarethe von Baden with her daghter Princess Katharina of Yugoslavia,who later married Dezmond de Silva,who is a solisitor of Queen Elisabeth II...




Desmond de Silva is NOT THE QUEEN'S SOLICITOR.  For one thing, he is a barrister, and he is QC - Queen's counsel, but this does not mean he is the queen's lawyer. which I explained before.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on August 01, 2005, 07:14:48 PM
Quote
Alex,  

That Mignon was probably bi-sexual is not news, nor it is shocking.  A percentage of the population is gay.  It's genetic.  The late Prince Paul was certainly gay.  

Being gay or Lesbian does not diminish who a person is, nor does it diminish Mignon's devotion to Serbia.  (but she was not a good mother, and, sadly, did not know how to relate to her children, especially after exile.  She was largely estranged from Peter, for example.  In her later years, in England, Mignon, always a bit eccentric, was far more mannish in appearance and dress, and she shared her small home with another woman.  

But it doesn't change who she was.   Not at all.  


Marlene,

Which "late Prince Paul" are you referring to?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marlene on August 01, 2005, 09:54:44 PM
Quote

Marlene,

Which "late Prince Paul" are you referring to?

TampaBay


Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, married to Princess Olga of Greece, and one of three regents for King Peter.  He was bi-sexual as was his brother in law, the duke of Kent.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: TampaBay on August 02, 2005, 10:13:12 AM
Quote

Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, married to Princess Olga of Greece, and one of three regents for King Peter.  He was bi-sexual as was his brother in law, the duke of Kent.


Marlene,

Thanks, I have never heard this before.  Is this information documented or is it just very reliable gossip?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marlene on August 02, 2005, 01:39:51 PM
Quote

Marlene,

Thanks, I have never heard this before.  Is this information documented or is it just very reliable gossip?

TampaBay



I would guess a bit of both.  It's hardly news.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: nena on July 10, 2008, 12:00:13 PM
Tomislav died not long ago, Anderi was found dead in a garage....about lives and children late. My grandma saw Tomislav in London, and spoke with him. She said: He spoke was in some way...maybe rude, he spoke loudly---she told me.
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/th_4946cec1.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/4946cec1.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/th_kraljevici.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/kraljevici.jpg)
Tomislav with father,  and all brothers.
More are coming later!

Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: nena on July 10, 2008, 12:14:03 PM
Tomislav's children----with Margarita of Baden
Nikola(1958)
Catherine(1959)
With Linda:
George(1984)
Mikhail(1985)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/th_petar2_03.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Karadjordjevici/petar2_03.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on July 10, 2008, 12:34:25 PM
And Tomislav's son Prince George has illegitimate daughter named Sara Anastasia by his ex-girlfriend Milica...
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on December 27, 2008, 10:05:29 AM
I posted pictures of Tomislav in some other threads but forgot which ones...try to use search option and maybe find something more!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: n_simic on December 27, 2008, 11:09:54 AM
Thanks I saw the thread and very nice pictures. I just thought it would be nicer making a thread rather than resurrecting one that was going off topic a bit. Thanks anyway!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on December 27, 2008, 08:53:33 PM
Most of the pictures I posted were from his biography..so,anything more would be great-thanks!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 03, 2010, 06:01:35 AM
Prince Tomislav's granddaughter Sara Anastasia,daughter of his son Prince George:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/sara.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: beladona on April 03, 2010, 08:48:38 AM
Marc, you mean Prince George, from Tomislavīs second marriage? Interesting, I didnīt know, he is married, Paul Theroff listed him as single and without children...
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on April 03, 2010, 09:54:47 AM
Yes...he is not married but he has an "out of wedlock" daughter with his former girlfriend Milica...as her mother was not for this union and her daughter under her influence they never married...though,they are not together anymore they still have a daughter named Sara Anastasia!
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 10, 2011, 08:51:51 AM
Tomislav and two kids from his first Marriage: Princess Catherine and Prince Nicholas


(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/863/0305velika.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/0305velika.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 22, 2011, 08:07:22 AM
Tomislav ,his second wife Linda and sons George and Mikhail

(http://www.ilustrovana.com/2009/2612/03-06-velika.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: windemere on December 24, 2013, 04:16:09 PM
Are there any photos available on the internet of Prince Christopher , who died in a bicycling traffic accident in the Orkney Islands, Scotland, in 1994, where he was employed as a science teacher ?  I believe that he used the name Christopher George. He was the son of Prince Andrew, who was the 3rd son of King Alexandr I.
Title: Re: Prince Tomislav of Yugoslavia
Post by: Marc on January 11, 2016, 08:16:02 AM
In her later years, in England, Mignon, always a bit eccentric, was far more mannish in appearance and dress, and she shared her small home with another woman.  

Her name was Violet Rosemary Cresswell and it was stated that she was in those years Queen Marie's lady in waiting.She was hated by her sons.

When Queen Marie died she left 300 pounds to her.