Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Wittlesbachs => Topic started by: Chris_H on April 12, 2005, 10:26:31 AM

Title: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 12, 2005, 10:26:31 AM
Hey everyone, my name is Joseph Kaiser and I am new here, does anyone have any pictures of Sissi's brothers and sisters?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 12, 2005, 12:46:33 PM
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/auersperg23/MaxL.jpg)

Sissi's parents:Duke Maximilian in Bayern and Princess Ludowika von Bayern!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 12, 2005, 12:48:29 PM
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/auersperg23/MarSophia.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 12, 2005, 12:51:27 PM
Sissi's sister Queen Maria Sophia of Bourbon Two-Sicilies!I am wondering does anybody has colour portraits of her sisters Princess Helena von Thurn und Taxis or Princess Mathilde of Bourbon Two-Sicilies,Countess de Trani or her brother?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 12, 2005, 01:18:59 PM
hey Marc, thanks for the posts :), question for everyone who do you think Sissi got her outstanding looks from, her father or her mother?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 12, 2005, 06:04:52 PM
From both of them,if you consider their youth portraits!If you consider later in life I think Sissi's looks was more flattering then her mothers!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 12, 2005, 06:34:53 PM
Sissi’s father Maximilian
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1808%20Maximilian-04.JPG

Sissi’s brother Ludwig
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1831%20Ludwig-01.JPG

Her sister Helene (Pss of Thurn und Taxis)
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1834%20Helene-01.JPG

Brother Karl Theodor
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1839%20Karl%20Theodor-03.JPG

Sister Queen Marie of bourbon-Sicilies
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1841%20Marie.jpg

Sister Mathilde Countess Trani
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1843%20Mathilde.jpg

Sister Sophie Duchess of Alencon
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1847%20Sophie-05.JPG

Brother Maximilian
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1849%20Maximilian.JPG

The women in the family were very attractive. Karl Theodor was a noted occulist and his daughter Elizabeth of Belgium followed in his medical footsteps.

Nieces (daughters of Karl Theodor)
Queen Elizabeth of Belgium
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wittelsbach/bavariadukesin/1876%20Elisabeth-02.JPG

Crown Princess Rupprecht of Bavaria (Marie Gabrielle)
http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-familie
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 12, 2005, 06:45:06 PM
Does anybody have colour portraits of either Helene,Mathilde,Sophie,Ludwig,Theodor or Maximilian?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 12, 2005, 07:05:48 PM
I agree Marc, Sissi's looks later on in life is definately more flattering than her mother so I am going to be daring and say she had a lot of her father in her.  Unfortunately I have not come across any color portraits of the siblings
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 12, 2005, 08:07:34 PM
Here's Sissi and Karl Theodor 'Gackel'
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/sissiandgaekel.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 12, 2005, 08:12:49 PM
My favorite of the siblings, Sophie Duchess of Alencon. She died during a charity bazaar fire. She could've escaped but stayed to help others escape and her large skirt caught fire and she died.  :( I prefer her looks to Sissi's because she had good features but also a softer look to her that Sissi lacked (beautiful though she was).
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/images17.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/sophiealencon.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/sophalen.jpg)

And long hair definitely ran in the family!
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/sophiealsowithlonghair.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 12, 2005, 08:42:09 PM
How did they maintain such massive tresses ? Must have taken forever to dry, in the days before electric hairdryers.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 13, 2005, 02:45:01 AM
Oh yes...

Sissi got her hair treated once a week.  On that day, she basically did nothing except getting her hair treated.  I read that it took 3 hrs to wash it w/ brandy (the hairdresser had to be careful not to let sissi see the falling hair)!  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 07:08:30 AM
Definately, hair that long, took forever to dry, personally my hair is so thick that water just bounces right off of it, haha ;D!  It is still amazing to me that Sissi's sisters all look so similar, of course they are sisters but the family
characteristics are so powerful
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 07:13:34 AM
For example, on my post above, Queen Marie, could definately pass as Sissi
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 13, 2005, 07:53:25 AM
The relationship between their parents is quite intriguing. Maximilian had numerous mistresses & Ludovica was deeply hurt by this but, during the early years at least, she kept accepting him back. In later life they never spoke to each other at all despite maintaining a semblance of normality, & Maximilian preferred the company of his illegitimate children.

All these Bavarians are so very very strange & fascinating partly because so many of them were -basically - completely 'round the twist'!
Ludovica suffered from such terrible headaches that she could not bear anyone even to touch her hair. I wonder if there was some kind of inherited 'brain' problem (apart from all the previously discussed theories of the effects of such much in-breeding.)

Also, I would be very interested to know a lot more about Sissi's cousin, Alexandrine (1826-75) daughter of Ludwig I of Bavaria, who had to be confined because she thought she had swallowed a glass piano  :-/ :-/
(This sounds so bizarre, I wonder if she meant like a little model one  :-/ - Surely, not a full sized glass piano? It's really sad that she thought that - I mean REALLY sad - but it makes me laugh.... :-/)
 
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 09:38:10 AM
What would be interesting to know how many illegitimate children did Max have and the names of those children and what happened to them?  The Wittelsbachs have always interested me not only were they one of the oldest Germanic families (older than the Habsburgs) but of their interesting "characters".  The Wittelsbachs really did what they wanted to do always.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 13, 2005, 10:28:49 AM
Quote
What would be interesting to know how many illegitimate children did Max have and the names of those children and what happened to them?  The Wittelsbachs have always interested me not only were they one of the oldest Germanic families (older than the Habsburgs) but of their interesting "characters".  The Wittelsbachs really did what they wanted to do always.  


Yes, this would be very interesting. I hope someone knows...

(BTW I wrote Bavarians because I couldn't remember how to spell Wittelsbachs & was too lazy to look it up! You saved me the bother  ;) )
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 13, 2005, 11:40:11 AM
It was said that Max's illegitimate children were all over Munich  ::)  That is probably an exaggeration but he probably did have quite a number of them.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 13, 2005, 11:47:14 AM
Quote
It was said that Max's illegitimate children were all over Munich  ::)  That is probably an exaggeration but he probably did have quite a number of them.


Crazy wing, do you know who any of their mothers were? Or which were the ones he was closest to? (Please  :) )
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 13, 2005, 11:53:28 AM
Quote

Also, I would be very interested to know a lot more about Sissi's cousin, Alexandrine (1826-75) daughter of Ludwig I of Bavaria, who had to be confined because she thought she had swallowed a glass piano  :-/ :-/
(This sounds so bizarre, I wonder if she meant like a little model one  :-/ - Surely, not a full sized glass piano? It's really sad that she thought that - I mean REALLY sad - but it makes me laugh.... :-/)
  

Alexandra was convinced she had somehow ingested an entire glass piano, and so had to take special care that she didn't shatter it, causing her to be torn to shreds from the inside. It apparently severely restricted her lifestyle as activities such as horseriding would be forbidden by her. It could be why she only lived to 49--I can't image this kind of stress could be good. (BTW she was the paternal aunt of ‘Mad King” Ludwig II of Bavaria). Alexandra believed she had accomplished this as a child and she never wavered from the belief her entire life.  This deeply delusional behavior was common throughout the Wittelsbach family, probably due in part to a good bit of inbreeding. Poor Princess Alexandra was completely sincere in her belief that she had swallowed this piano. I don’t think it’s been written down as to how or when this was supposed to have taken place but she swore by it and her family at least humored her in the belief.

Here's a portrait--she was a pretty girl. Sad.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/germany/alexandrabav1.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 13, 2005, 12:10:04 PM
Yes it is sad indeed & also completely bizarre.
There MUST be more to it than just inbreeding...
I read somewhere a letter from 'mad' King Ludwig saying how much he pitied her because she was so mad; he was sufficiently sane to recognize HER 'madness' - I wonder if either of them ever recognized their own??  
Presumably then she confined herself for her own protection, rather than being confined by the family.
It's such a bizarre thought though, where on earth could such an idea have come from!  :-/

(Having said that, I just remembered a man I knew who thought his head was very very tiny & if a drop of rain fell on him, he would drown & consequently he could never be persuaded to step outside a hospital ward...Frightening, isn't it  :( )

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Shvibzik on April 13, 2005, 03:05:56 PM
Quote
My favorite of the siblings, Sophie Duchess of Alencon. She died during a charity bazaar fire. She could've escaped but stayed to help others escape and her large skirt caught fire and she died.  :( I prefer her looks to Sissi's because she had good features but also a softer look to her that Sissi lacked (beautiful though she was).
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/images17.jpg)

That's the photo! ;D I saw it in Elizabeths Royal diary... :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 13, 2005, 03:31:49 PM
I think the "glass piano" Alexandra was also Abbess of the Noble Ladies of St. Anne. I wonder if an autopsy was carried out, to find out what gave her this notion ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2005, 05:15:07 PM
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/auersperg23/Sophie.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2005, 05:20:49 PM
I posted the same picture two times  :o Portrait of Duchess Sophie von Bayern dancing with her husband Prince Ferdinand d'Orleans,duke of Alencon!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 06:52:09 PM
I am pretty happy, I have recently bought Elisabeth: Portraits of a Empress and it arrived today, the book is fantastic, wonderful pictures and portraits of Sissi!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 13, 2005, 06:58:04 PM
Maybe one day we will now who the children and the mothers were that Max was involved with.  I bet in Munich in one of musuems or archives that most have some type of records of that.  Alexandra was a pretty woman, I agree, it is sad of what happened.  Was that portrait in Ludwig 1st famous gallery?  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 13, 2005, 07:33:05 PM
Quote
I posted the same picture two times  :o Portrait of Duchess Sophie von Bayern dancing with her husband Prince Ferdinand d'Orleans,duke of Alencon!


I saw that photo on another site and I think it must be mis-identified. The looks and fashions just are all wrong.  :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 13, 2005, 11:20:32 PM
Quote

Crazy wing, do you know who any of their mothers were? Or which were the ones he was closest to? (Please  :) )


Sorry bluetoria, I do not know who the mothers were.  I think i read that in Joan Haslip's biography of Sissi.  It seems to me that they are probably peasants.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2005, 05:17:19 AM
Really,GDElla?  :P I took it somewhere from the web(really don't remember) as a portrait of the Alencons!What do you think,who might it be?By the way,you are absolutely right about the fashion of the time...I didn't think about it until now!Thanks
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 14, 2005, 07:40:06 AM
I have two options of who the woman in that portrait could be 1) Queen Louise of Prussia or 2) Princess Auguste of Bavaria who married Eugene de Beauharnais
I, myself, am thinking there is a more possibility that it could be Princess Auguste of Bavaria
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 14, 2005, 08:37:00 AM
Quote
I think the "glass piano" Alexandra was also Abbess of the Noble Ladies of St. Anne. I wonder if an autopsy was carried out, to find out what gave her this notion ?


Who were the Noble Ladies of St. Anne?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 14, 2005, 10:09:33 AM
I found what I was looking for, the portrait of Alexandra hangs in the Galleries of Beauties in Nymphenburg Palace, her father had a quite a fondness for female beauty.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 14, 2005, 10:17:12 AM
Hello Bluetoria, the only thing I could find about the noble ladies of St. Anne, there was one) an Order of St. Anne, which is a decoration that the Kingdom of Bavaria gave and two) there is an convent of St. Anne in Augsburg, Bavaria
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 14, 2005, 10:22:43 AM
This is how it reads in Burke's: ALEXANDRA Amalie, Abbess Chapter of Noble Ladie's of St Anne in Munich and Wurzburg.  I think I seen this mentioned before in connection with other Catholic royal and noble ladies but really do not know if it is/was an actual convent for them.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 14, 2005, 10:32:50 AM
Thank you Joseph & Robert for the information. I wonder if she had any responsibilities with them. I read today that she would only walk sideways through doors for fear of knocking against them & shattering herself.  :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 14, 2005, 10:36:22 AM
Quote
I found what I was looking for, the portrait of Alexandra hangs in the Galleries of Beauties in Nymphenburg Palace, her father had a quite a fondness for female beauty.


I read that he used to take visitors around his 'gallery' but that his wife avoided it.  :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 14, 2005, 10:38:12 AM
Sounds suspiciously like a place to fob off royal spinsters and other ladies of that rank who might have a lack of social assets ? [like someone who swallowed a glass piano, perhaps ?].
Also cruel & flippant...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 14, 2005, 10:46:46 AM
Ah well...if you're being cruel & flippant I'll re-add my original post that I removed...yes she might have made a good Choir Mistress in the 'convent.'
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 14, 2005, 11:32:53 AM
You are welcome Bluetoria :) Ah the saga continues in the gallery of Beauties, there was a story in the Joan Haslip's book The Lonely Empress, that Ludwig the 1st really wanted to go up in a hot air balloon with the Empress Eugenie that was pretty amusing, since Ludwig I think was in his seventies :P  Two words, poor Alexandra, I really feel bad for her
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 14, 2005, 11:37:47 AM
Yes, Joseph, you're right about Alexandra - I'm not laughing at HER just the notion...(sorry!)

I feel a bit sorry for Ludwig I because, notwithstanding Gallery of Beauties, he had been a faithful & loving husband for many many years & had done a great deal to improve the lives of the people in Bavaria (including building public libraries etc.). It was only when he met Lola Montez that his life went into decline. He, an older man, making a fool of himself with some jumped-up little gold-digger...everyone could see it but himself. It was that which eventually led to his downfall. It's a shame.  :-/
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 14, 2005, 01:00:52 PM
Hi Bluetoria, need not to worry, I know that you weren't laughing at her :)  I do agree with you, I feel sorry for Ludwig, he did great things for Munich and for Bavaria.  And then Lola appeared, in which I am not going to start with that subject at all.  Moving on, I am curious about Sissi's paternal grandfather, Duke Pius, are there any portraits of him?  I have not come across any of him yet.  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 14, 2005, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
Really,GDElla?  :P I took it somewhere from the web(really don't remember) as a portrait of the Alencons!What do you think,who might it be?By the way,you are absolutely right about the fashion of the time...I didn't think about it until now!Thanks


I've seen it on worldroots.com . I thought maybe there was a similar name and that's where some confusion came in. I once wrote to Brigitte (who runs the site) because she had Elizabeth "Ella" and Elizabeth (Ernie's daughter) mixed up. also some with Marie Adelheids of Luxemburg.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: nerdycool on April 14, 2005, 10:06:50 PM
Quote
Ludovica suffered from such terrible headaches that she could not bear anyone even to touch her hair. I wonder if there was some kind of inherited 'brain' problem (apart from all the previously discussed theories of the effects of such much in-breeding.)


I'm going to toss a theory out there about why Ludovica got such terrible headaches. Since all the girls appear to have long & luxurious (therefore very heavy) hair, perhaps the weight pulled her neck out of place and caused her to get migraines as a result. I know that when my hair gets long enough, I get more migraines because of the weight. They stop once I get it cut and go to the chiropractor. And when I get migraines, I don't want anyone touching me because it's torture. Maybe it was the same for her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Marc on April 15, 2005, 07:43:30 AM
GDElla,thanks for your info!Do you know who might it be because the dresses look like from Napoleonic era?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 15, 2005, 10:08:59 AM
I'm sorry I don't.  :(  That era isn't really my field of expertise and it can be so hard with paintings like that as opposed to actual photographs or portraits that were posed for.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 15, 2005, 10:34:47 AM
Nerdycool, what an interesting theory! Even if it wasn't the cause of the migraines, it cannot have helped to ease them carrying such great weight - especially when they had hats & hat pins and everything else piled on top of their heads!!
I wonder if there is another similarly simple theory which could account for their psychiatric problems....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 15, 2005, 01:47:07 PM
Quote

It's her parents who are not in the photo. From left to right you can see: Sophie, Max Emmanuel, Karl Theodor, Ludwig, Helene, Mathilde and Marie (or Marie and Mathilde)


Thanks!  No wonder...i thought the two eldest look a little too young to have so many children but i never thought the parents aren't in the portrait.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Chris_H on April 15, 2005, 02:07:44 PM
I really enjoyed reading all the comments about migraines (even though it is not enjoyable if you have them) and what could of caused them, in the Kaiser family, you inherit them also with a love of books and history :)  Is it true that Sissi's mother was in love with Prince of Portugal or Braganza, it said that in Reluctant Empress?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Ildiko on April 15, 2005, 02:40:58 PM
Quote
I really enjoyed reading all the comments about migraines (even though it is not enjoyable if you have them) and what could of caused them, in the Kaiser family, you inherit them also with a love of books and history :)  Is it true that Sissi's mother was in love with Prince of Portugal or Braganza, it said that in Reluctant Empress?


Yes that's true. Ludovika was in love with Dom Miguel of Portugal (later Miguel I). Her father didn't allow them to marry because Miguel was only a second son, although I think it's odd because Max also didn't have much fortune. He couldn't have known that shortly after Ludovika's marriage with Max, Miguel became King of Portugal (even if only for a short time).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Agneschen on April 15, 2005, 05:29:11 PM
Hi everybody ! I have gathered many pics of Sisi's brothers and sisters but do not know how to post them. I would willingly send them to anyone who could post them for me. Let me know.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 15, 2005, 11:51:56 PM
Quote

Yes that's true. Ludovika was in love with Dom Miguel of Portugal (later Miguel I). Her father didn't allow them to marry because Miguel was only a second son, although I think it's odd because Max also didn't have much fortune. He couldn't have known that shortly after Ludovika's marriage with Max, Miguel became King of Portugal (even if only for a short time).


All of Ludovika's sisters married foreign princes/kings except for her.  Most of them made illustrious marriages too.  Maybe her father was like QV and Alix ::).    
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Thomas_A. on April 16, 2005, 05:28:40 PM
Quote

Sissi's parents and siblings (i think sophie and mathilde are not in this portrait).  


The portrait shows all of Sisi's siblings. The two eldest are not the parents but Ludwig and Helene
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: bluetoria on April 17, 2005, 07:45:27 AM
Quote
Hi everybody ! I have gathered many pics of Sisi's brothers and sisters but do not know how to post them. I would willingly send them to anyone who could post them for me. Let me know.


Agneschen - I have a copy of a VERY clear IM which Angie sent me to show how to post pictures via photobucket. I'll IM it to you.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Shvibzik on April 18, 2005, 06:40:19 PM
Helen and Sissi
(http://www.brigittevonboch.org/thurnandtaxis/helenandsissi.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 18, 2005, 08:04:21 PM
Helen doesn't look too happy in the pic above  :P

Thanks for the great pics!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on April 18, 2005, 10:42:28 PM
yeah i find her to be rather unattractive. She looks too much like Gackel.  :-[

Those pics of Marie are incredible. I espesially like the one of her and, I assume, her children and husband. They look like old daguerreotypes. Anyone have an idea on the dates?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: grandduchessella on April 18, 2005, 11:51:34 PM
Marie Sophia:

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/daisyconnaught/austria/mariasofia1.jpg)

Interestingly she apparently had illegitimate twins who were taken from her during her widowhood! Here is some things written about her (compiled from a few places):
By the age of 19, Maria Sophia had been a queen, lost her kingdom, rallied soldiers around her in the hopeless defence of a lost cause, and had had men —even her enemies—writing reams of romantic slush about her. She was "the angel of Gaeta" who would "wipe your brow if you were wounded or cradle you in her arms while you died". D'Annunzio called her the "stern little Bavarian eagle" and Marcel Proust spoke of the "soldier queen on the ramparts of Gaeta". She was intelligent, lovely, and headstrong; she could ride a horse and defend herself with a sword.  She was everything you could ask for—a combination of Amazon and Angel of Mercy.  

In 1859 Maria Sophia married Francesco II of Bourbon, the son of Ferdinand II, King of Naples. Within the year, with the death of the king, her husband ascended to the throne and Maria Sophia gave up the frivolous court pursuits of a princess and took on the full-time responsibilities as queen of a realm that was shortly to be overwhelmed by the forces of Garibaldi and Italian unity. To avoid bloodshed in the major city of Naples, the king and his army retreated to Gaeta to make what turned out to be a last stand.

In late 1860 and early 1861, the forces of Victor Emanuel II  lay siege to the stronghold of Gaeta and eventually overcame the defenders. It was this brief episode that gained Maria Sophia the reputation that stayed with her for the rest of her life. She was tireless in her efforts to rally the defenders, giving them her own food, caring for the wounded, and daring the attackers to come within range of the fortress cannon. She refused the chivalrous offer from the attacking general that if she would but mark her residence with a flag, he would make sure not to fire upon it with artillery. Go ahead and shoot at me, she said; I will be where the men are. In one lighthearted episode—if anything at all can relieve the horrors of a four-month siege—she assembled the men on the seaside rampart, had them turn around, pull down their trousers and "moon" the attacker fleet. She was worshipped unto idolatry by her men.

The defense was in vain. There are many accounts of the Bourbon defense of Gaeta, written at the time or shortly thereafter. Among the most interesting is Journal du siège de Gaëte by the Belgian journalist, Charles Garnier (published in Brussels in 1861). The author was in the besieged fortress town for the duration, his daily journal entries running from November 4, 1860 through February 14, 1861. The account skimps on personal descriptions of King Francis and Queen Maria Sophia, "so as not to place vain ornaments at the foot of the pedestal for which the Bourbons of Naples are destined." Yet, the few details are kind, describing how the Queen placed her own food at the disposal of the wounded, and so forth. Garnier's last image of the Queen is after the surrender, as the French ship, Mouette, leaves Gaeta to carry the royal family into exile: "The queen remained by herself at the prow, leaning on the railing and contemplating the cliffs of Gaeta." When it was over, the Bourbon officers and men could choose to go home or even take leave and then return to be part of the new all–Italian army.  

Maria Sophia and her husband went into exile in Rome, the capital of what for 1,000 years had been the sizeable Vatican States. By 1860, however, they had been reduced to the city of Rome, itself, as the armies of Victor Emanuel II came down from the north to join up with Garibaldi, the conqueror of the south.

An article by William Chauncey Langdon entitled "The Last Stand of the Italian Bourbons" appeared in The Atlantic Monthly for November 1884. It contained remembrances of the family from 1860s. 'The young queen ever won upon the kindly interest and sympathy of every one who looked upon her almost girlish figure, her fair face and placid brow, and who thought what it must be to be the wife of an exiled king of Naples...With the queen we were all pleased. She is perhaps not beautiful, but very bright and interesting, — a face full of spirit.'

Another item from the popular press contains one person's memories of Maria Sophia. The article was entitled "Royal Exiles and Imperial Parvenus." It was signed only by "An Englishwoman" and appeared in an American magazine, The Galaxy, in the issue for October 1872—just two years after the Papal State fell once and for all to the forces of Italy, and the ex-King and Queen had moved elsewhere. Her perceptions are mixed:  

'The Palazzo Farnese in Rome was, when I knew it in 1863, the refuge of that modern Joan of Arc, the ex-Queen of Naples… She seemed to me the most lovely vision I had ever seen. Her dark hair…reached half way down her back, and seemed ready to burst the wide-meshed net that confined it. Her eyes and color added to the sprightly, bewitching beauty of her face, and her carriage was absolutely the most willowy and graceful I ever saw.… Physically brave and enduring she certainly was, having been fearlessly and boyishly brought up, inured to exercise, accustomed to adventure, and fond of all athletic exercises. But there the dream of Joan of Arc must end; the high moral resolve, the far-seeing grasp of mind, were utterly wanting… So fair a shrine, but so feeble a lamp within! It was a pity to see her thus. She was seldom in Rome, and only came in occasionally to receive her husband’s subjects and the “distinguished foreigners” who wished to be presented to the “heroine of Gaeta.”  '

In 1870, Rome fell to the forces of Italy; the Papal States shrank to a few acres on the banks of the Tiber, and the King and Queen moved into exile elsewhere. The king died in 1894. Maria Sophia spent time in Munich, and then moved to Paris. Her activities were, however, far from over. Maria Sophia, herself, said that even if she could never get her kingdom back, she could at least get revenge.  It was rumored that Maria Sophia was involved in the assassination of King Humbert in 1900. She knew the anarchists who recruited the assassins. That is not evidence of anything, of course, but it certainly fed the rumor mills of united Italy for a few years—the ex-queen helping to commit murder (!) out of some deranged desire for revenge on those who had taken her realm.

During World War I, she was actively on the side of Germany and Austria in their war with Italy. Again, the rumors claimed she was involved in sabotage and espionage against Italy in the hope that an Italian defeat would tear the nation apart and that the kingdom of Naples would be restored.  All of that was rendered moot by the great political and social changes in Europe between the time of her role as a "modern Joan of Arc" in 1860 and her death in 1925: Her own Kingdom of Bavaria was taken up into a united German Empire; Italy became, irrevocably, a single nation state; some four million Italians (most of them from the south, the ex-kingdom of the Two Sicilies)  emigrated to America between 1880 and 1920 ; and European nations were devastated by the Great War. She lived to see Mussolini take power in Italy and to see Hitler make his first move in Germany. (Maria Sophia was still active enough in her 80s to stand at the window of her apartment in Munich and look at anarchists and police battling in the streets. She wanted "to see if young people of today still have the stuff they had when I was young.”)  

The wealth and privilege in Maria Sophia's life were, to a certain extent, overshadowed by personal tragedies. Her only child by her husband died in infancy. Also, thanks to Armand de Lawayss, a Belgian count and officer in the foreign forces holed up in Rome, she had twins in 1862. Both of them survived and both were taken from her by her all-wise, scandal-conscious royal Bavarian relatives. It is not clear that she ever saw them again, except once or twice, briefly and under supervision. In the late 1890s, her younger sister, Sophie, died heroically while trying to help others from a burning building. Shortly thereafter, in 1898, her sister Elizabeth was stabbed to death by an anarchist.  

Maria Sophia died in Munich in 1925. The January 20, 1925 edition of il Mattino, the largest newspaper in Naples, the ex-capital of her ex-kingdom—65 years after she had ceased to be relevant to the affairs of southern Italy—still saw fit to devote two full columns to her on the front page beneath the banner headline, "Maria Sofia, ex-queen of Naples, is dead." The write-up was almost totally positive, dwelling on the queen's personal courage, anti-traditionalism, and generosity. It pointed out how she visited and consoled Italian prisoners of war interned in Germany during WW I, and how she made sure—to the very end of her life when she, herself, was not well-off, financially—to maintain pension payments to the last of her personal servants, a man who had served her in Gaeta 65 years earlier. The paper made no mention of any supposed connection between her and Italian anarchists nor supposed involvement in a plot to assassinate King Humbert in 1900. The article, in a single negative note, said that Maria Sophia had been responsible for  "organizing banditry in the 1860s in the south." Other than that, the paper praised her with "She was one of those European princesses who, with her great gifts, would have had another destiny but for the dramatic events of her times."

She, her husband, and their only child found their last resting place in 1984 when their remains were brought to Naples and interred in the Church of Santa Chiara.




Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: crazy_wing on April 19, 2005, 03:52:44 AM
Quote
yeah i find her to be rather unattractive. She looks too much like Gackel.  :-[

Those pics of Marie are incredible. I espesially like the one of her and, I assume, her children and husband. They look like old daguerreotypes. Anyone have an idea on the dates?


They are her children.  She had a daughter by her husband but she didn't live pass childhood.  She also had another illegitimate child before...  I don't remember what happened to the illegitmate child tho.  I believe he/she did not live pass childhood and was raised by the father...  am I right?  

Could the children be her nieces/nephews??  
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Agneschen on April 19, 2005, 05:03:19 AM
Maria Sofia indeed had 2 daughters. An illegitimate one, called Daisy, who was raised by her father, the Belgian count Armand de Lawayss, and died young. The other one, Cristina-Pia, was her daughter by her husband, King Francesco II of Naples and died in Rome aged only a couple of months.
In his fanciful bio of Maria Sofia, Arrigo Petacco claims that she actually had 2 illegitimate daughters, Daisy and another little girl called Viola, who was adopted by Maria Sofia's brother Ludwig and became known as Marie Wallersee. Pure fancy of course.

On the 3rd pic I posted she is surrounded not by her children but by her Neapolitan sisters-in-law. They are all in mourning for King Ferdinando II of Naples.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Ildiko on April 19, 2005, 05:14:19 AM
Quote
Maria Sofia indeed had 2 daughters. An illegitimate one, called Daisy, who was raised by her father, the Belgian count Armand de Lawayss, and died young. The other one, Cristina-Pia, was her daughter by her husband, King Francesco II of Naples.
In his fanciful bio of Maria Sofia, Arrigo Petacco claims that she actually had 2 illegitimate daughters, Daisy and another little girl called Viola, who was adopted by Maria Sofia's brother Ludwig and became known as Marie Wallersee. Pure fancy of course.

On the 3rd pic I posted she is surrounded not by her husband and children but by her Neapolitan sisters-in-law. They are all in mourning for King Ferdinando II of Naples.


The story with Daisy and Viola is totally bogus. Marie had two children one illegimate in 1862 and maybe the girls name was Daisy. But no one will ever know this as the child was given to its father who may or may have not been Armand de Lavalyss (there was also talk that it could've been Prince Nikolaus von Nassau)
Marie Wallersee is Ludwig's and Henriette Mendels child. They also had a son Karl Emmanuel who died shortly after birth. Marie Wallersee later married Count Georg Larisch-Mönnich and two others times.
Marie Wallersee and Daisy or whatever her name was weren't siblings. And of course the child Marie Sophie had was born in 1869 and died a few months later. There's a rather interesting Biography of Marie Wallersee by Brigitte Sokop (in German) where this story is also mentioned and even that Marie Wallersee and Viola were twins which of course is nonsense.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Agneschen on April 19, 2005, 05:24:16 AM
Hi ildiko !
The fanciful rumours about Viola which Petacco evokes in his bio may, in some ways, have unvoluntarily been started by Marie Wallersee herself. In one of her books, Les Secrets d'une Maison royale (I only have the French translation, do not know what the original title was), she claims that her aunt Maria Sofia once brought her to meet a young girl called Daisy and that the 2 of them looked exactly like sisters.
I had never heard of any relationship between Nikolaus of Nassau and Queen Maria Sofia, he is never evoked in bios about her. Please, tell us more.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Ildiko on April 19, 2005, 05:33:54 AM
Quote
Hi ildiko !
The fanciful rumours about Viola which Petacco evokes in his bio may, in some ways, have unvoluntarily been started by Marie Wallersee herself. In one of her books, Les Secrets d'une Maison royale (I only have the French translation, do not know what the original title was), she claims that her aunt Maria Sofia once brought her to meet a young girl called Daisy and that the 2 of them looked exactly like sisters.
I had never heard of any relationship between Nikolaus of Nassau and Queen Maria Sofia, he is never evoked in bios about her. Please, tell us more.


The story of Nikolaus and Maria Sofia is mentioned in the Sokop Biography of Marie Wallersee. Apparently while Maria was pregnant with her illegimate child is sent to Bad Soden where she meets Nikolaus. Sokop says that there never was an Armand de Lavalyss and that maybe his name was just made up to cover the name of the real father- Nikolaus of Nassau, that the name Lavalyss only suggested the country (Dynasty)where the father came from.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2006, 08:25:33 PM
Nice photo of Nene...She was always richly dressed although it did not always right ? ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 16, 2006, 06:05:41 AM
I read in the book Hofchronik by Marie Redwitz that Helene was the only one of the Bavarian sisters who didn't know how to dress. Her clothes must have looked strange.

But whenever you see Helene on a picture, she looks quite pretty.  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on October 16, 2006, 08:54:19 AM
Marie Redwitz talked to much!  :D And by the way they didn´t like nene at all. I mean the ladies in waiting. Especially Marie Festetics.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 10:56:58 AM
Nene did look awakward in any photo I saw, Marie looked the most relaxed infront of a camera.  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 16, 2006, 11:26:19 AM
Marie Redwitz talked to much!  :D And by the way they didn´t like nene at all. I mean the ladies in waiting. Especially Marie Festetics.

That's nonsense. I am happy about every line Marie Redwitz has written. Do you have her book Hofchronik, Rani?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 08:41:02 PM
I didn't know that Nene was that unpopular ?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 17, 2006, 01:08:19 PM
Marie Redwitz wrote that Helene was badly dressed, chaotic and very untidy. But I wouldn't say that she was unpopular. Everyone liked her, also because she spent lots of money on presents for her family, her siblings, nieces and nephews.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Daniela on October 18, 2006, 05:07:26 AM
I kind of pitty Helene! :(

I mean, she lost her husband so quickly!  :'(

Daniela
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 19, 2006, 02:54:54 AM
Yes...Especially hers was the only happy marriage among the sisters.  :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Paola on October 19, 2006, 08:22:02 AM
What was the cause of death of Nene's husband?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 19, 2006, 08:40:14 AM
What was the cause of death of Nene's husband?

Maximilian Karl Anton Hereditary Prince of Thurn und Taxis died of a paralysis of the lungs.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Paola on October 19, 2006, 08:43:27 AM
Thanks Marie. Was he ill for long time? I have the impression his illness was rather short and his death almost unexpected.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 19, 2006, 08:51:59 AM
Thanks Marie. Was he ill for long time? I have the impression his illness was rather short and his death almost unexpected.

He had been ill for quite a while, but neither his family nor the people in Regensburg would have expected his sudden death.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2006, 11:45:15 PM
Quite eerily...the same happened to his eldest son.  :'(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Veronika on December 15, 2006, 09:52:43 AM
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3104/pdvd012gq5di3.jpg)

Mathilde and Marie
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on December 15, 2006, 02:09:41 PM
Wow, Veronika! Great picture!! ;D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 15, 2006, 03:26:33 PM
I didn't know that photograph either until it was shown in a report about Empress Elisabeth about three weeks ago.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2006, 08:07:58 PM
A report about what ?  ???
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 17, 2006, 02:10:46 AM
A report about what ?  ???

A report about Elisabeth broadcasted by the Austrian television. It was about her childhood, her thin body, her journeys, the circumstances of her death, etc. Really interesting. If you haven't seen it, you can order the DVD on http://shop.orf.at/1/index.tmpl?shop=home&seite=home (http://shop.orf.at/1/index.tmpl?shop=home&seite=home).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Agneschen on December 17, 2006, 04:35:43 AM
Sounds interesting. Is the DVD worth buying ? Does it bring new elements about Kaiserin Elisabeth or just the same old theories we all have read about ? Are there any other unknown pics like the one Veronika posted ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 17, 2006, 05:49:31 AM
Sounds interesting. Is the DVD worth buying ? Does it bring new elements about Kaiserin Elisabeth or just the same old theories we all have read about ? Are there any other unknown pics like the one Veronika posted ?

In my opinion, this report was really impressive. There is a German and an English version on the DVD. Peter Prinz von Altenburg, a grandson of Archduchess Marie Valérie, talked about Elisabeth and how she is seen in the family. A historian had a look at the medicine Elisabeth had to take. Because of this he was able to find out interesting things about her health. Two other men reconstructed the day of Elisabeth's death. They went along the same streets, visited the room at the hotel Beau Rivage where she died, etc. All in all, it was the goal of the report to show the human being Elisabeth behind the mask of Sissi, which is very difficult of course.

A historian form Munich talked at Possenhofen about Elisabeth's childhood, her parents and siblings. There were some pictures I've never seen before.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2006, 08:52:06 PM
Where can we buy this DVD ???  :-*
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: kain on December 17, 2006, 11:07:19 PM
That's is true! This pictures has been catches of the dvd   "Elisabeth Enigma of the Empress".

I drew these images directly from the DVD to make a criticism there on my French forum.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2006, 02:07:27 AM
Interesting...I should get it too...  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 18, 2006, 12:45:01 PM
Where can we buy this DVD ???  :-*

I've already given you the link to the website of the ORF (= Austrian televison) shop. Here it is again: http://shop.orf.at/1/index.tmpl?shop=home&seite=home (http://shop.orf.at/1/index.tmpl?shop=home&seite=home) On this site you can see a picture of the DVD. Then just follow the links.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2006, 07:52:12 PM
Thanks !  :D
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Veronika on December 26, 2006, 11:40:37 AM
Maria Sofia

(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/Maria%20Sofia%208.jpg)

(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/MariaSofia%2011.jpg)

(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/MariaSofia%2016.jpg)

I think that this is Mathilde

(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/Maria%20Sofia%206.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on December 26, 2006, 11:44:07 AM
(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/MariaSofia%2016.jpg)

Thanks for this nice picture! :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 26, 2006, 11:44:46 AM
(http://wpage.unina.it/dellaval/Borbone%20di%20Napoli/Maria%20Sofia%206.jpg)

This is a well known photograph of Mathilde Countess Trani. But there is also a photograph on which Marie is wearing the same dress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2007, 09:01:23 PM
Yes I have that one and another one of both sisters togather with the same dress.  ;)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 01:13:38 PM
Sophie d'Alençon. I don't know if this photo had already been posted. Sorry if it had.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/DuquqesaAlencon.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2009, 02:49:33 PM
Yes. But I like to see it again.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 04:55:23 PM
Yes. But I like to see it again.

Thanks for being so kind to a «newbie»!
I will post some more photos in the hope some may be new.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 04:59:08 PM
Sophie d'Alençon:

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/SophiedaBaviera.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/sofiaBaviera-alencon.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 05:06:50 PM
Maria of Naples:

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/queennaples1.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaIrmaSisi2.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaBavieraNapoles2.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaBavieraNapoles.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaBavieraNapoles3.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Veronica on March 28, 2009, 05:25:57 PM
Maria of Naples:

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaIrmaSisi2.jpg)


This one definitively new to me. I love it, thanks DonaAntonia for posting!
Maria had a beautiful profile
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 28, 2009, 05:54:33 PM
I love it, too. It was for sale on ebay maybe two years ago.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 05:56:03 PM
Thank you, Veronica.
Here are some more:


(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaBavieraz.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MariaBaviera-napoles.jpg)


Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 28, 2009, 06:00:43 PM
... And the 2 variants I know of Sophie's portrait with King Ludwig of Bavaria:

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/ludwigSophie.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/LudwigBavieraDuquesaAlencon.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 28, 2009, 07:36:05 PM
Nice ones but seen before. Hard to find ones not seen or post before.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Zukunftsseele on April 18, 2009, 12:30:36 PM
I love it, too. It was for sale on ebay maybe two years ago.

Do you know where or when it was taken? Or the name of the photographer?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 18, 2009, 04:56:32 PM
Do you know where or when it was taken? Or the name of the photographer?

I'm sorry, but I don't have further information about this CDV. But I guess it was taken in the early 1870s.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Zukunftsseele on April 18, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
Thank you, anyway.  :) I think it's a pretty picture of her and I like the way she is wearing her hair on this pic.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 19, 2009, 07:26:56 PM
Amazing pics, thanks!! :-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Princess Susan on June 20, 2009, 12:45:26 AM
... And the 2 variants I know of Sophie's portrait with King Ludwig of Bavaria:

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/ludwigSophie.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/LudwigBavieraDuquesaAlencon.jpg)

Those pistures are my favorites of them, never mind, that quite common. :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 13, 2009, 07:53:50 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gZTPb2-qhY4/SDPAPkQzwdI/AAAAAAAAA6M/9DNvG6keNeo/s320/SISSI%2BY%2BSU%2BHERMANA%2BHELENA.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Bernoud,_Alphonse_(1820-1889)_-_La_regina_di_Napoli_Maria_Sophie_Amalie_di_Baviera_(4_ott_1841-19_gen_1925)_.jpg/300px-Bernoud,_Alphonse_(1820-1889)_-_La_regina_di_Napoli_Maria_Sophie_Amalie_di_Baviera_(4_ott_1841-19_gen_1925)_.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 07, 2009, 12:59:36 PM
Have you got photos of Sissi’s sisters as girls? Or if they’re not photos paintings, there isn’t much, I just have seen one painting of Ludovika, Maximilian and some of their children, the youngest is “Gackel”. And one that shows Ludovika, Helene, one of her brothers and baby Sissi, please if you have seen one, can you post it, or them. Advanced thank you. :-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 07, 2009, 01:02:03 PM
And other favor more… Are there photos of Sissi’s sisters as old women? Well, a pair of them (like Sophie) died young, but if there are some or only one, of one of her sisters, can you post it/them. I don’t have much luck at finding new ones, there aren’t much photos of them, not only as old ladies.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on August 07, 2009, 02:54:00 PM
And other favor more… Are there photos of Sissi’s sisters as old women? Well, a pair of them (like Sophie) died young, but if there are some or only one, of one of her sisters, can you post it/them. I don’t have much luck at finding new ones, there aren’t much photos of them, not only as old ladies.


I don't believe any of her sisters died young.
Helene 1834-1890 56 yrs.
Sophie 1847-1897 50 yrs
Marie 1841-1925 80+ yrs
Mathilde 1843-1925 80+yrs
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 07, 2009, 07:11:02 PM
That's true, and really sad. But thank you anyway for your help:-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 08, 2009, 07:06:03 AM
Have you got photos of Sissi’s sisters as girls?

There is a famous painting by Joseph Karl Stieler showing Elisabeth's siblings in 1854. I've seen paintings of Marie and Mathilde as girls which were auctioned in Munich some years ago. Here is the pic:

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/MandM.jpg)

You have to keep in mind that Elisabeth's sisters were born between 1834 and 1847 - a time when photographs still were a new medium. Actually there are some photos of the youngest sister Sophie which were taken around 1860. Photos of Mathilde and Marie as girls exist (the photographer was Mr. Holz from Munich), but are really rare and therefore hard to find.

I just have seen one painting of Ludovika, Maximilian and some of their children, the youngest is “Gackel”.

Do you mix this one up with the painting of 1854 I've mentioned before? Otherwise I would be delighted to see it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 08, 2009, 07:19:15 AM
And other favor more… Are there photos of Sissi’s sisters as old women? Well, a pair of them (like Sophie) died young, but if there are some or only one, of one of her sisters, can you post it/them. I don’t have much luck at finding new ones, there aren’t much photos of them, not only as old ladies.

I've got photos of Helene and Mathilde in old age. The photos of Sophie taken towards the end of her life are quite well-known.

The average life expectancy in 1900 was 52,5 years for women and 46,4 years for men. If you take this statistics into consideration, Sophie (who died an unnatural death of course) was in this periode of time quite old when she died. Today when a person dies at the age of 50, we would call it an early death.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on August 08, 2009, 07:31:20 AM
And other favor more… Are there photos of Sissi’s sisters as old women? Well, a pair of them (like Sophie) died young, but if there are some or only one, of one of her sisters, can you post it/them. I don’t have much luck at finding new ones, there aren’t much photos of them, not only as old ladies.

I've got photos of Helene and Mathilde in old age. The photos of Sophie taken towards the end of her life are quite well-known.

The average life expectancy in 1900 was 52,5 years for women and 46,4 years for men. If you take this statistics into consideration, Sophie (who died an unnatural death of course) was in this periode of time quite old when she died. Today when a person dies at the age of 50, we would call it an early death.


You are correct and I should have been more clear on that. As an 'older' person I seem to not take in account the age of some of our members and their overall knowlegde of life in the 19th Century. I did not mean any offense....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 08, 2009, 07:35:55 AM
You are correct and I should have been more clear on that. As an 'older' person I seem to not take in account the age of some of our members and their overall knowlegde of life in the 19th Century. I did not mean any offense....

That's fine. I just got interested in this topic and did some reaserach about average life exspectancy in 1900. :-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 08, 2009, 03:36:38 PM
Are there photos of Sissi’s sisters as old women?

I just had a look at the old thread about Helene. Follow this link and you will find two photos of her which were taken shortly before her death: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6224.60 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6224.60) There are taken from Das Familienalbum von Kaiser Franz Joseph and Elisabeth by Gabriele Praschl-Bichler.

Mathilde also has her own thread in the Italian section of our discussion board: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6188.0 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6188.0)

These pictures of Mathilde in old age were posted in the thread mentioned before. It seems like Mathilde was as skinny as her sister Elisabeth. She also prefered black dresses.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/spatz2-1.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/laszlo.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 15, 2009, 06:20:14 PM
Thank you very much for the information and for the photos, they're new for me, and the kind of photos
that I was looking for. I don't know why but she reminds me Sissi, perhaps for the face or the black dresses.
Thank you!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 01, 2009, 01:50:58 PM
There are only those of the Hapsburgs. Hard to find Maria Sofia in old age.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 01, 2009, 02:09:22 PM
Sophia in a old age, nearly impossible because the poor lady died so young. About Marie, I haven't seen
any, just about Mathilda, and she looked so similar to Sissi ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on October 01, 2009, 06:36:36 PM
Sophia in a old age, nearly impossible because the poor lady died so young. About Marie, I haven't seen
any, just about Mathilda, and she looked so similar to Sissi ;-)

One more time; she did NOT die 'young'.......re-read previous posts made in regards to average age in that era. No need to reply to every post with blanket statements. First read, than comment!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 02, 2009, 12:11:23 PM
One more time; she did NOT die 'young'.......re-read previous posts made in regards to average age in that era. No need to reply to every post with blanket statements. First read, than comment!
I've read them, but I'm saying that her last photos can't be considered of an old lady today.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on October 02, 2009, 02:39:14 PM
One more time; she did NOT die 'young'.......re-read previous posts made in regards to average age in that era. No need to reply to every post with blanket statements. First read, than comment!
I've read them, but I'm saying that her last photos can't be considered of an old lady today.

You can't look at history wiith today's standards in mind. Times were very different and things that seem so very odd or strange to us now, were very normal in the era they occurred. I love the fact that so many young people from allover the world are picking up an interest in European history, it warms my heart! But there is no need for 'hero worship' for certain people. They all put their pants on one leg at the time. Read other opinions than mainstream about those people. Throughout your postings I have picked up some things and I would like to ask you to read up first and comment later.
Today there is 'the internet', but when I was a young girl, there was none of this, just books and I read as much as I could, as quick as I could to 'get into' the personality of the historical person I was interested in. I read a number of 'opinions' and when I became an adult and understood life a little better, they all of a sudden made sense to me.
Keep going with your interest in history, but beside whatever Wikipedia has to offer, read, read, read.......

An example of this is in the post about the painting portraying Elisabeth's brothers and sisters; if one also is aware of the fashions in the 20th. Century, one knows this could not have been a painting of Elisabeth's parents. Don't focus so much on THE PERSON, look around in the same era they lived and what happened economically, socially etc.
A Library is a GREAT place to spend a couple of hours.......
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on October 02, 2009, 03:10:53 PM
One more time; she did NOT die 'young'.......re-read previous posts made in regards to average age in that era. No need to reply to every post with blanket statements. First read, than comment!
I've read them, but I'm saying that her last photos can't be considered of an old lady today.

You can't look at history wiith today's standards in mind. Times were very different and things that seem so very odd or strange to us now, were very normal in the era they occurred. I love the fact that so many young people from allover the world are picking up an interest in European history, it warms my heart! But there is no need for 'hero worship' for certain people. They all put their pants on one leg at the time. Read other opinions than mainstream about those people. Throughout your postings I have picked up some things and I would like to ask you to read up first and comment later.
Today there is 'the internet', but when I was a young girl, there was none of this, just books and I read as much as I could, as quick as I could to 'get into' the personality of the historical person I was interested in. I read a number of 'opinions' and when I became an adult and understood life a little better, they all of a sudden made sense to me.
Keep going with your interest in history, but beside whatever Wikipedia has to offer, read, read, read.......

An example of this is in the post about the painting portraying Elisabeth's brothers and sisters; if one also is aware of the fashions in the 20th. Century, one knows this could not have been a painting of Elisabeth's parents. Don't focus so much on THE PERSON, look around in the same era they lived and what happened economically, socially etc.
A Library is a GREAT place to spend a couple of hours.......


Chill down!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on October 02, 2009, 03:31:25 PM
chilling...... :P

I think it is all of our 'job' to help and educate younger members of this forum, but it seems I am not the only one that has noticed that some (younger???) members ask first, then look later, or spout popular belief.......Oh, it's easy to be spoonfed the answer, but there is NOTHING wrong with looking it up yourself first and then ask an informed question, not guess or depend on others to find the answer for you. There is no need for you to step up in defense, I do not bite, just stating something that is bothering me.
These historical figures as so complex and have so many facets, that these 'swoony' questions irritate me and a true discussion is not possible.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2009, 12:00:09 PM
Agreed. However the lives of Sisi 's siblings were very unconventional by royalty standards...even today.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:48:32 PM
I think Nene was quite sane and so was her younger brother Max.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:53:47 PM
She had many sad events that damaged her emotional stability the last years of her life, but
in normal conditions she was
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:56:00 PM
Nene and Mathilde can only be called strange rather than crazy. She just acted different in their ways. That is very different than losing one's mind.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:57:35 PM
Who was the strangest of all of Ludovika's children?
I can't decide between Sissi or other of her sisters
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 25, 2009, 03:20:44 PM
Do you know the nicknames of Marie and Mathilde?
I've read that Mathilde was known also as "Spatz" (sorry if I didn't write it correctly) but I'm not
sure, and about Marie I don't know.
The others are so famous
Helene- Nene
Elisabeth- Sissi
and Sophie- Sopherl....
I need help!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 25, 2009, 04:47:50 PM
Do you know the nicknames of Marie and Mathilde?
I've read that Mathilde was known also as "Spatz" (sorry if I didn't write it correctly) but I'm not
sure, and about Marie I don't know.
The others are so famous
Helene- Nene
Elisabeth- Sissi
and Sophie- Sopherl....
I need help!

Some of you will never learn that Elisabeth's nickname was Sisi with only one 's' ...

Mathilde was called "Spatz" (engl. "sparrow") because of her high voice, right. In a few books I read that Marie's nickname as a child was "Mädi", but the authors couldn't confirm it. So I guess Marie actually didn't have a nickname.
I also don't know why some authors claim that Sophie was called "Sopherl" or something like that. No family member had ever mentioned a person called "Sopherl" in his or her letters. I remember reading a letter written by Elisabeth. In this letter she told her daughter Gisela about her stay in Possenhofen and that "Aunt Sophie" (!) was angry because someone splashed water on her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 25, 2009, 06:56:55 PM
About that of Sissi with just an S, how correct is that some persons say that really she was not
Sisi, that she was Lisi? I think that they read as this way her famous signature.Thanks for the info.
I read that Sophie was known as Sopherl on the thread of Sophie of Alencon here on the forum.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 26, 2009, 02:13:30 AM
About that of Sissi with just an S, how correct is that some persons say that really she was not
Sisi, that she was Lisi? I think that they read as this way her famous signature.Thanks for the info.
I read that Sophie was known as Sopherl on the thread of Sophie of Alencon here on the forum.

In my opinion the Lisi theory is absurd. Some people had a closer look at Elisabeth's signature and thought the "S" might be a "L". But why did family members refer to her as "Sisi" in their letters? If she was really called "Lisi", everyone else would have called her "Lisi", too.

About "Sopherl": There has been a bad movie about Sophie on German television. In this movie she was called "Sopherl". Maybe the author saw this film and thought the shown facts to be real - but they aren't. Nevertheless, "Sopherl" is some sort of German/Austrian version of Sophie. In the Sissi movies, some characters also call Archduchess Sophie "Sopherl", for example Duke Max.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Trianon on November 26, 2009, 05:34:46 AM
There is also the theory that the nickname "Sisi" was from her father. He visited egypt and was very interested in this country and its history. When you read "Sisi" from the end to the beginning you got "Isis", the important egypt godess. But well thats only another theorie...

Sophie was really called "Sopherl" but only in when she was a child, she didn't like these nickname, so everyone called her Sophie or the most closest friends and familymebers called her by her second name Charlotte. It was a privileg to call her so and her husband Ferdinand got it after their first "romantic hours" at saxony.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 26, 2009, 08:28:41 AM
Sophie was really called "Sopherl" but only in when she was a child, she didn't like these nickname, so everyone called her Sophie or the most closest friends and familymebers called her by her second name Charlotte. It was a privileg to call her so and her husband Ferdinand got it after their first "romantic hours" at saxony.

I still don't believe that Sophie was called "Sopherl". Could you please give me your source?

I also read in Paoli's book that Sophie allowed Ferdinand to call her "Charlotte", but in fact no one ever did. Maybe Sophie wanted Ferdinand to fell honoured. Family members always called her "Sophie" (see letters written by Ludovica, Archduchess Sophie, Elisabeth, Ludwig II., Marie Valérie's diary, etc.).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 26, 2009, 01:24:06 PM
Thanks for the explanation of Sisi's nickname, really it doesn't look like an L.
Sorry, but I don't know German.... What are the nicknames of the name Elisabeth? is
Sissi included on them, or was just used for the Empress?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 26, 2009, 02:13:31 PM
Thanks for the explanation of Sisi's nickname, really it doesn't look like an L.
Sorry, but I don't know German.... What are the nicknames of the name Elisabeth? is
Sissi included on them, or was just used for the Empress?

Oh, there are a couple of possible nicknames. Younger people are usually called Lisa, other nicknames are Elli, Elisa or Lisbeth. I also know an older woman who is called Sissi by her husband, but that's not common. In Germany everyone thinks of the Sissi movies first when he/she hears this name. So it's quite embarrassing to be called Sissi ... ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 27, 2009, 10:53:52 AM
Thanks again!!! Is even worse to see people named Sissi!!! :-(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2009, 12:39:13 PM
Actually Sisi was actually named Lisi or Lizzy (short form for Elisabeth like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejuce). The Kaiser also called his daughter Sisi in honor of the beautiful Empress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2009, 12:40:41 PM
Well...It is a toss up between Nene (who had a priest for a lover) or Sophie who tried to run away with a doctor...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on November 28, 2009, 03:55:00 PM
Well...It is a toss up between Nene (who had a priest for a lover) or Sophie who tried to run away with a doctor...

I don´t think that Nene had an affair with a priest. But who knows.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2009, 01:00:02 PM
He was rumoured to have, and anyway he was quite close to Nene...too close that the tongues began to wag...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 30, 2009, 07:15:19 PM
Yes, is a famous nickname to Elisabeth ;-)
Actually Sisi was actually named Lisi or Lizzy (short form for Elisabeth like Elizabeth Bennet in Pride and Prejuce). The Kaiser also called his daughter Sisi in honor of the beautiful Empress.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 30, 2009, 07:16:12 PM
I haven't hear that about Nene, can you post more info please??
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2009, 12:31:20 PM
Nene had a close realationship with a priest during her later years partly due to her religious revial in her life. He also eats with her at her dining table. The story was recorded in books about the House of Thurn & Taxis and family of Sisi.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2009, 12:32:11 PM
Yes...I think there must more be many after the Romy films...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 02, 2009, 03:06:07 PM
Do you know the name of this priest?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 02, 2009, 03:06:53 PM
Her movies made Sissi more famous, specially out of Europe
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2009, 06:31:35 PM
I have to look back on my notes.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2009, 06:32:21 PM
Indeed. Many people name their daughters Sisi...at least nicknames.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 03, 2009, 01:41:57 PM
Indeed. Many people name their daughters Sisi...at least nicknames.

Did you know that Karlheiz Böhm's eldest daughter is nicknamed Sissi? But her real name is Beatrix Draga Marie Therese. (Karlheiz Böhm played Franz Joseph in the Sissi movies).
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 03, 2009, 01:46:56 PM
Another question.... how did she meet him? I'd like to hear more about it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 03, 2009, 01:49:18 PM
I don't see the relationship between her real name and her nickname, I just saw a model
that her real name is Isabel (well Elizabeth, she is from Cuba) and is nicknamed "Sissi", as a name
I saw it on a person one day, I'm sure that her parents loved Romy's movies :-S
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2009, 05:40:03 PM
They are favourites of many people. I got the box set to enjoy during Christmas.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 03, 2009, 05:41:46 PM
Most German books did not go into great detail about the relationship but just reported it in their books. The TNT family is justified in not offering more detail on the subject.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: aor on December 04, 2009, 09:33:56 AM
I am not certain about where I read this, but I seem to remember her nickname was Liesl, I have an aunt called Sisi, but only because she was the olderst sister (sister/sissi)......
I guess the Sissi Trilogy started it all.......
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 04, 2009, 12:11:33 PM
Is a pity, really isn't a famous fact about Helene, or I really haven't heard about this story of love.
I'm sure that she felt alone after the death of her husband
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 04, 2009, 12:14:08 PM
Well, here in Mexico Sissi isn't a famous person, but days ago I saw a reporter named Sissi, I'm
sure that her parents felt inspired with Romy's movies
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2009, 04:37:08 PM
Yes. The Romy movies started the craze for Sisi again.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2009, 04:39:31 PM
Yes. I read that even though Nene was married to Max (of Thurn & Taxis), she felt the urge for another man, it filled her with dread on sin. I am sure Ludovika would not have been pleased and doubt she told her mother about the attraction.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:10:48 PM
The most representative actress as Sissi is Romy, their movies became sooo popular even
out of Europe, but Sissi herself could be so representative too in her time
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:14:30 PM
I don't think that Helene could mention neither half a word of it to her mother Ludovika, but
in fact Sissi's sisters have this kind of affairs (Marie, Mathilde, Sophie.... and even Nene) and
it wasn't very good accepted, less in the days of the Victorian strict and conservative mind
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:18:09 PM
I'm sure that Nene could have better options to fill the place of her dead husband.... well, not
like this....?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 05:23:44 PM
I heard Nene was described as hot...as to Sisi's physically cold. I think Ludovika could undertand that.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 05:24:58 PM
Yes even today...In Wien, you see Sisi in every product...like Mozart.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:45:01 PM
I haven't heard that about Nene...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 05:46:24 PM
It is in a few German books, not in English text, so you may not have read about it.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:46:54 PM
Yes, I've heard that you can find millions of souvenirs related to the Empress in Vienna, in fact
one day I saw online a box of chocolates with her portrait ;-)
Is an turistic icon!!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 05:48:25 PM
Not only chocolates but coffee and cushions too...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:54:05 PM
Well.... i can see why this info is unknown for me.
How was Nene as wife?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:55:21 PM
And postcards, books, ornaments for pencils and dolls for mention others. Sissi would never imagine
that she would be as famous and remebered as she is, totally a myth.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 06, 2009, 05:14:31 AM
It is in a few German books, not in English text, so you may not have read about it.

I haven't read about Helene being "hot" either - and I am German ... Hmm ...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2009, 11:52:08 AM
The text came from one of the books on the TNT family. I manage to get it translated...I was suprised too to find the prim and proper looking Nene hot for another man ! I think she resembled her father Duke Max who always hot for women.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2009, 11:53:15 AM
She is the female icon of Austria and Mozart is the male one. What would she have thought had she knew ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 12, 2009, 04:47:21 PM
Yes, Maximilian was hot of women, but I think that was more "acceptable" for a man to do that
than for a woman, let's check it on the affairs of Marie and Sophie too, in fact nearly all her daughters
could resemble him
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 12, 2009, 04:48:43 PM
Yes, I agree totally that they're the main icons of Austria ;-)
I'm sure that they wouldn't imagined so.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 08:19:57 PM
Sisi never understood the public's fasination with her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 08:23:00 PM
I think Sisi was not "hot" for men. After she caught VD from Franz Josef, she shun physical contact with men. Although she reunited with her husband to beget Valerie, her other "alleged" affairs seem to be more affairs of the heart than physical.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: RealAnastasia on December 13, 2009, 10:43:51 PM
Yes...I know that. But I didn't know that Nene was "hot". That's weird for me. Of course, it could be true! I think that I'm a little influenced by bad sugary movies, in which Nene is shown almost as a stupid, without personality (yes..I'm speaking about the "Sissi" trilogy by Marischka...UGH! . These are pretty romantic movies, but totally untrue).

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Paola on December 14, 2009, 07:23:37 AM
Mathilde and Marie found  "outside" marriage what her husbands couldn't give. Helene turned to religion after her husband and two children's deaths and I think she found some kind of support in this priest, but I find hard to believe she was "hot" like her father who had several illegitimate children. Elisabeth liked to be admired by men, more the type of look but don't touch. As for Sophie, it seems her marriage was not happy but I don't know much about the character of her husband but maybe he was too boring  and serious for her??
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Madame-Sisi on December 15, 2009, 04:25:52 AM
but if it really was lisi instead of sisi...than why would irma sztaray have written the name as sisi in her book? and in the other older books from corti?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 15, 2009, 10:41:20 AM
but if it really was lisi instead of sisi...than why would irma sztaray have written the name as sisi in her book? and in the other older books from corti?

That's the point. Franz Joseph, Sophie, Ludovica, etc. - they all talked about "Sisi" in their letters.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Madame-Sisi on December 15, 2009, 02:30:19 PM
so then i guess that the discusion about wether her nickname was lisi or sisi is a bit pointless if the letters of her relative says its sisi...and its not from the movie
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2009, 06:17:15 PM
I think it all sprawn from a mistake, but adopted the nickname afterwards. It wasactually quite original "Sisi" than the more common "Lizzy".
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 18, 2009, 05:36:47 PM
I think Sisi was not "hot" for men. After she caught VD from Franz Josef, she shun physical contact with men. Although she reunited with her husband to beget Valerie, her other "alleged" affairs seem to be more affairs of the heart than physical.

Sissi just had platonic loves like Andrassy or Bay Middleton, but really no more, in fact she disliked sex and was
frigid.
 About Helene it could be an unknown side of her character, it's true that sometimes we imagine them as other way
but I think that it can be possible.
Anything to say about Marie and Sophie....
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2009, 06:50:04 PM
Both Mathilde & Maria Sofia had affairs outside their marriages.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 19, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
And what about Sissi's brothers?? Were they like his father about having affairs?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on December 20, 2009, 11:23:22 AM
(http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu80/HeleneCaroline/paard.jpg)

Karl and Marie
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 22, 2009, 10:50:54 AM
Lovely photo!!! ;-)
They look very happy together!!! I would like to know if he was happier with Marie of Braganza
or with his first wife
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on December 22, 2009, 11:22:16 AM
Lovely photo!!! ;-)
They look very happy together!!! I would like to know if he was happier with Marie of Braganza
or with his first wife

I think he was happy with both of them. Sophie died young and Karl was 7 years a widower, before he married Marie.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 22, 2009, 11:32:38 AM
Karl Theodor with Luis di trani

(http://i50.tinypic.com/103x0na.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 22, 2009, 02:08:25 PM
Was a real pity that Karl Theodor lost his first wife, but happily he could be happy with Marie.
I'd like to know if the eldest brother was happy with Henriette Mendel, I'm sure that he loved her
to accept commit a morganatic marriage
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2009, 09:09:12 PM
It was because of Sophie's death  that Karl Theodore became a doctor.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 24, 2009, 11:56:13 AM
And was a very important and recognized doctor, the only of Sissi's sibblings that was dedicated
to the science
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 24, 2009, 06:32:56 PM
Yes. But not the only Wittelsbach though...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 01:08:52 PM
Yes, I know that other relatives of the Empress Sissi were famous scientists, but in her close
family Karl Theodor was the only one that dedicated his life to study science
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:10:56 PM
Yes. As a result his daughter Elisabeth (Queen of Belgium) became his assistant.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 28, 2009, 01:15:07 PM
Karl and his first wife,  Marie Sophie of Saxony

(http://i46.tinypic.com/2pzn2me.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 01:18:22 PM
She was a beautiful lady indeed, i haven't seen any pic of her never before, thanks!!! ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:19:35 PM
I can see it now. She was pretty in a delicate way.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 01:14:18 PM
I would like to know about this lovely lady, she looks as a loving wife and also good hearted.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 01:33:28 PM
Want more pics? here a few of Sophie Marie...

(http://i46.tinypic.com/330cs5z.jpg)

Another one cut in half, most probably from the ONB. She was a beautiful lady

(http://i50.tinypic.com/20v0tx5.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 02:10:16 PM
She looked sad in the second photo.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 02:24:18 PM
It was the typical "Victorian Melancholic" look
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 03:18:05 PM
Maybe she was in mourning?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 04:08:43 PM
Hard to say  since dark colored clothes (red, green, blue , pruple and etc etc) appears as black in B&W and sepia pictures.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 07:55:42 PM
Possibly...since she and her sisters were quite sickly even in royal standards.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 12:48:02 PM
Wonderful photos Katenka ;-D She was a very beautiful lady indeed!!!
I think that she isn't in mourning, perhaps the dress is dark as you said or perhaps it's black but
she isn't neccesary in mourning
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 12:54:39 PM
I would like to know about this lovely lady, she looks as a loving wife and also good hearted.

Sophie Marie Friederike was the youngest child and sixth daughter of Johann of Saxony and his wife Amalie, née Princess of Bavaria. She was born on 15 March 1845 in Dresden. Sophie spent most of her childhood in Weesenstein, a small castle in Saxon Switzerland, without a lot of luxury. Amalie and Johann tried to create an informal athmosphere there.

Sophie and her father were very close to each other. In November 1851 Johann wrote to his 6-year-old daughter:
Beloved Sophiechen! I haven't kept my promise to write to you yet. But today I won't forget it. I am happy that you are reunited with your sisters and I think that Anna (Anna of Saxony) will play with you every day. Just like in Dresden, it's winter here and we have a lot of snow. But the snow is melting fast, because the sun is much warmer. You would be very fond of Lili's (Elisabeth of Saxony) little dogs who are running around in the house. Good bye, my good Sophiechen. Be studious, pious and polite, because I want to have only good news about you. Yours faithfully, Papa. My greetings to your brothers and sisters.

In 1864 Ludovica invited her sister Amalie and her niece Sophie to stay in Possenhofen for the summer season. Ludovica wanted Sophie to be some kind of model for her own daughter Sophie Charlotte. In Ludovica's opinion, Sophie was modest, lively and feminine - which Sophie Charlotte obviously wasn't. Sophie and Sophie Charlotte became very close.
Contemporaries describe Sophie as warmhearted, sometimes a bit larky. But Sophie was also very intelligent. The ducal family sometimes was really scared by her clear intellect.

In this summer, Carl Theodor and Sophie fell in love with each other. When they went to Bernried by carriage, they decided to marry. On 22 August 1864 Amalie wrote to her husband: Sophie said yes and wants to have your blessing. Carl hopes to see you in Augsburg. Amélie.
Carl and his fiancée spent three weeks in Switzerland. Then, on 11 February 1865, they married. Amalie and Johann were very sad when Sophie left them one week later. Until 1865 they had already lost four of their six daughters. The couple spent their honeymoon in the south of Europe.

Everybody in Munich liked the young duchess. When Sophie met her father-in-law Max, a difficult character, for the second time, he gave her the permission to say "you" to him. Sophie Charlotte wrote to Ludwig II.: I love her so much! I couldn't image a nicer sister-in-law! Only Empress Elisabeth didn't like her, because for her Sophie was the reason why Carl Theodor didn't have so much time anymore. She even wrote to her children: Uncle Gackel isn't allowed to visit me, because he is married now. She was jelous.

In March 1865 Sophie wrote to her father: To entertain us, Gackel started to play the piano and we all started to scream like chickens. Sophie Charlotte sang an aria and the famous dog Pruß finally started to bark. We are silly, dad, aren't we?

On 24 December 1865 Sophie gave birth to her only child Amalie Maria, called Amélie. 11 days after Amélie's birth, Sophie had a temperature, she had problems to breath and felt very sick. The doctors told Carl Theodor that his wife suffered from pleurisy. It took Sophie three months until she was able to leave her bed again.

On 27 February 1867 Sophie went to a dance in the Four Seasons Hotel. The next morning she felt sick. First of all everyone thought that the duchess caught a cold, but in fact she was seriously ill and suffered from a laryngitis. She received the last sacraments - not for the last time. Until she died, Sophie was unconscious most of the time. Whenever she had a clear moment, her rigid eyes looked at Carl Theodor.
On 8 March Carl Theodor wrote to Johann: Decomposition of strength is maintaining. Consciousness is fading. High temperature. Laryngitis a bit better. Not much hope. And the nex morning, 9 March 1867: She is going to die. One hour later: Our angel passed away.
Amalie collapsed. She had lost her sixth child far too early.

Carl Theodor looked like a corpse himself. He wasn't able to attend the funeral. Prince Ludwig (later Ludwig III.) brought Sophie's coffin to Banz where she was laid to rest. Later her mortal remains were transferred to Tegernsee.

Carl Theodor was devastated. It took him 7 years until he was willing to remarry. I think because of Sophie's early death, Amélie has always been his favourite daughter. In Amélie his beloved first wife was still alive.

                        

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 01:11:34 PM
Than you very much for the sort bio Marie Charlotte. i wouldn't imagined that Sissi was jealous of
her sister in law!!!
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 01:46:20 PM
Karl Theodor was Sisi's favourite brother and very close. Now there is a true love story here in Sophie & Karl Theodor !
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:01:02 PM
I knew that Sissi considered Karl Theodor his favorite brother, in fact she was a very good wife and all
his relatives appreciated her very much (less Sissi for being jealous for a silly reason), what beautiful
story indeed, is a great pity that she died very young, Karl must suffered a lot for that reason, happily
he could be happy again with Marie of Braganza ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:02:19 PM
Yes. Although only his daughters had decendents.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:04:27 PM
Is a great pity that!! :-(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 02:06:35 PM
Yes. Although only his daughters had decendents.

Well, the youngest, Franz Joseph, had an illegitimate son called Ottomar (1909-1959) by Caroline Stockhammer. He was later adopted by a Prussian prince.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:11:09 PM
I did wonder why they do not marry ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 02:16:54 PM
I did wonder why they do not marry ?

Good question, next question. ;-) I really don't know. Maybe because Lilly was a commoner? Maybe they just had a love affair and the pregnancy was an accident?

I really would like to know how Marie José reacted when she heard about her son's illegitimate child. Was Marie José an as unconventional person as her sister Marie Therese and stood by her loved ones no matter what they did? I don't know for sure, but I think she had contact to Lilly and the boy.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:18:07 PM
The Hapsburgs married less reputable people before.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 02:19:41 PM
The Hapsburgs married less reputable people before.

Yes, but we are talking about the Wittelsbachs ... They didn't marry commoners except for Prince Karl Theodor, Ludovica's half-brother.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:21:36 PM
But they sometimes got married with non royal people, like Sissi's eldest brother, he got married
with a simply actress before she gave birth to their children
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:22:11 PM
What about Sisi's eldest brother who married the actress Henriette Mendell (mother of Countess Larisch) ?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 02:29:47 PM
But they sometimes got married with non royal people, like Sissi's eldest brother, he got married
with a simply actress before she gave birth to their children

Ooops, I forgot Ludwig! :-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 02:32:52 PM
He must loved Henriette Mendel for accept to see his children with lower ranks
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 02:45:23 PM
Yes. So with that example, it is strange that the boys do not want to get married. It also happened to Max Emmanuel's boys too...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on December 30, 2009, 03:03:16 PM
Yes. So with that example, it is strange that the boys do not want to get married. It also happened to Max Emmanuel's boys too...

Christoph was married to Anna Sibig, but they didn't have children. By the way: Has anybody ever seen a pic of Anna?

Siegfried was engaged to Archduchess Miana. I guess they would have married if Siegfried hadn't had this terrible riding accident.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 01:23:38 PM
Ohhh yes!!! Is a pity that I only have seen three portraits of her, one a pair of years ago.
I can understand why Ludwig fall in love with her
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:48:56 PM
The amazing thing was that all his sisters accepted her.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:27:07 AM
Is good that it happened, in other families the persons are cruel with the mates of persons
that married with ones of lower rank, even her daughter was accepted (till Mayerling!!)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 11:37:22 AM
Countess Larisch went to her head and believe she was as royal as her cousins. She fell back to earth after her marriage. There after held a grudge against her Aunt. Henriette however never put herself forward and her tact was rewarded.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:51:13 AM
But the majority of her family was really royal, she must felt in disavantage at their side
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 12:44:46 PM
That is when tact came into play. Baroness Wallsee never overplay her hand and happy to be accepted as part of her family. Her daughter did not.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 01:07:22 PM
She should acted like her mother, is funny, the one who wasn't looking for being accepted was and the
one who was looking for it didn't have it.
Why was Henriette a Baroness and her daughter Countess?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 01:59:39 PM
The daughter married a count.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:08:50 PM
I thought that she had the title since she was born
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
No. Please read the books. You risk sounding silly here.

... and you risk to sound impolite, Eric. There are members who don't have the (financial) possibilities you have to travel around and to buy all these books. No one sounds silly just because he or she has a question. This is a discussion board and everyone is free to ask whatever he or she wants. - And please don't forget that you also wrote very strange and confusing things in the past.
Thanks. Marie Charlotte.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:11:30 PM
I said that I thought that, only that, not that i'm deffending that she was born countess
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 07, 2010, 03:20:05 PM
Sophie Charlotte, Karl Theodor, Mathilde and Max Emmanuel with mother Ludovika

(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4249/2082dd527344603970o2.jpg)

Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 09, 2010, 05:25:01 PM
Where s the picture i posted?

It's in the thread about the books, because your discussion about the availability of books in your country didn't fit here. :-) MC.

Well..here it goes again...


(http://i47.tinypic.com/34e2cdf.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2010, 07:12:14 PM
I think it important to know the basics before making a comment. I never made any comment on the Grand Guchess Tatiana thread for example because I know nothing about her. It would be silly to ask where and when she was born (when the information is already exist there in the thread itself or on wikkipedia-which I stress it is more the begining and not the end). I remember I asked a question and Marlene asked me to read her book without giving an answer. Is that rude too ? If such an answer recieve no critism, my answer should not be called rude.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 10, 2010, 01:09:57 PM
Wonderful photo of Karl theodor!!! ;-)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 10, 2010, 03:53:35 PM
He looked kind of awkward and skinny at the end. Sophie Charlotte and Mathilde Trani was like that too... :(
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: THERRY on February 18, 2010, 11:43:24 AM
Some wonderful photos of Sisi's Brothers and Sisters posted here http://sissiludwig.forumfree.it/?t=46270377&st=0#entry378743120
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Rani on April 02, 2010, 12:03:12 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/znr7yb.jpg)

L. Wilhelm
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 02, 2010, 12:08:25 PM
Nice portrait. He seemed to be the less known of the brothers & sisters of Sisi. He was chiefly remembered as the father of Countess Larisch.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 02, 2010, 02:38:38 PM
Some wonderful photos of Sisi's Brothers and Sisters posted here http://sissiludwig.forumfree.it/?t=46270377&st=0#entry378743120

They are all from the ONB (Österreichische Nationalbibliothek), Vienna ...
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 02, 2010, 05:44:03 PM
Some rare ones but others seen before. All with great clarity !  :)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: susana on July 11, 2010, 11:59:34 PM
I've just seen elsewhere an allusion to a 'love' child born to Sisi which was whisked away and remained forever anonymous. Has anyone heard of this?
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 07:18:57 AM
yes , that was discussed in the Habsburg board and sounds like rubbish.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 12, 2010, 10:19:07 AM
Another rubbish tale repeated by Larisch to get back at Sisi.
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: KarlandZita on August 26, 2013, 04:19:18 PM
Marie :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/462529marieprinz.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=462529marieprinz.jpg)

Mathilde :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/910584mathildebayern.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=910584mathildebayern.jpg)

And Sophie :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/766834sophieinbayern.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=766834sophieinbayern.jpg)
Title: Re: Empress Elisabeth's brothers and sisters - pictures and information
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2013, 04:59:08 PM
All Pretty Girls.