Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: tian79 on February 12, 2004, 03:04:07 AM

Title: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: tian79 on February 12, 2004, 03:04:07 AM
What exactly did Olga and Tatiana do in their meetings and committees during WWI?
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: BobAtchison on February 14, 2004, 02:16:47 PM
For some trivia - a group of Americans paid for a squad of ambulances for Tatiana's medical service.  They all drove up to the palace during the war along with an American delegation and Tatiana inspected them and spoke at length with the American visitors.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Sarai on February 14, 2004, 04:21:17 PM
I recall reading somewhere that at some point during her nursing service, Olga became so distraught that she had a kind of breakdown and could not continue nursing. Does anyone know if a particular incident triggered this, or was it just a product of the sensitive young woman having had her full share of the blood, amputations, and general horrors of a military hospital? I wonder as well if her mother and sister were disappointed in this, as they were able to continue their efforts without her. I have a feeling that they were sympathetic towards her, as she was never made to return.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on February 18, 2004, 08:50:03 PM
I cannot remember the exact source material--it's all blending right now, and I'm away from my bookshelves--but I believe Olga was found vomiting into a towel in the linen room, and was subsequently given a desk job. This would tally with her sensitive nature, in comparison with the matter-of-fact and more efficient personalities of her mother and Tatiana. I also have read that sometimes the bandages and so forth applied by the royal ladies had to be done over again. Somehow this doesn't seem to jive with the competent personalities of Alexandra and Tatiana. But I can imagine that Olga, though undeniably bright, was not a natural nurse and found it difficult to separate her feelings from what was going on in front of her.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 23, 2004, 10:59:35 PM
The Grand Duchess Tatiana Committee was dedicated to helping those who were made refugees by the war. So successful was this committee that the Provisional Government continued its work.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: tian79 on February 24, 2004, 02:11:28 AM
I’d like to know if the girls had any useful ideas or did they just sit at the meetings bored and hoping to be somewhere else.
Are there any minutes from the meetings?

Also is there ever going to be a proper book about OTMA?
Or weren’t their lives interesting enough to sell books?
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Jackswife on April 28, 2004, 08:10:16 AM
 I've only heard varying opinions on the quality of their nursing work: some saying they were fairly skillful, others that it was more of a case of  good intentions but not so gifted hands. Again, just a sampling of reports I've read elsewhere. I personally think it was very much in character for both Alix and her daughters to do this kind of work.  The Tsarina seemed very much interested in useful charity work, and I'm sure she wanted her daughters to be the same. I had never read that about Olga's uniform being preserved, and I'd love to see a picture of it if anyone has one available.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: BobAtchison on April 28, 2004, 08:54:05 AM
Alix's nursing uniform was preserved at Pavlovsk.  I never have seen or heard of any Red Cross uniforms of the Grand Duchesses being preserved.

Bob
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 16, 2005, 08:40:42 PM
I think (but there are only my thoughts) that Tatiana and Alix had more skills as nurses than poor Olga. She was very sensitive and romantic and she was shocked when she must see the war infected wounds, blood, etc. I 'm a little like her and I understand her. Of course it's a good thing to help wounded people, warriors of your country, but I know that Olga must have been shocked when she saw these people in poor situation, dying, suffering, with worms...I understand why once she must hide to vomite in a towel.

  I suppose that Tatiana and Alix were, by far, more self-controlled and skillful. What do you think about that?

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Michelle on May 17, 2005, 08:01:46 AM
I've seen that picture of the uniform in Kurth's book.  It's very tiny (as far as fitting one's figure goes).  Does anyone have any guesses as to whose it is? (O or T's)
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 17, 2005, 12:08:50 PM
The picture from Kurth's book can be found:

Here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/Romanov/Scans/NUrse.png)

Two formal pictures of the Tatiana and Alix can be found
Here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/Romanov/Scans/Tat.jpg) and Here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/Romanov/Scans/Alix.jpg)

I am not sure whose dress it is, since we really can't see the length, to judge hight..  :-/
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: ferngully on May 17, 2005, 02:45:44 PM
any of olga?
selina                xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 17, 2005, 05:59:19 PM
I can't tell if the dress is tiny or not, but if it is, remember that the thinner GD was Tatiana...Maybee it's hers?  ???

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: aleksandra on May 17, 2005, 08:07:27 PM
any more photos of them in there unforms?
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Michelle on May 17, 2005, 08:17:13 PM
Quote
I can't tell if the dress is tiny or not, but if it is, remember that the thinner GD was Tatiana...Maybee it's hers?  ???

RealAnastasia.


No matter who was thinner, the dress could still be Olga's because Olga also had a dainty figure.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on May 18, 2005, 02:39:07 PM
Yes, and olga was shorter so wouldn't that make hers smaller? I love the photos of the girls when their palying games with the soldiers they look so at home and relaxed.
Title: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 04, 2005, 11:59:11 AM
i have only seen 2 pics of the flower fesitival. i'm shure that there were more! does any one have any pictures of it?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: divine_grace on July 04, 2005, 03:46:27 PM
 Granduchess_42, I do but alas, I don't have a scanner yet. :( As far as I know there are 4 shots from April 1912. I have the book called Nicholas and Alexandra the family albums by Prince Michael of Greece. There's a picture there as well as in the book Sunset of the Romanov Dynasty. They're standing in front of a window (if memory serves right ;D) And I remember there's a picture of Alexei selling the flowers with the Tsarina in a carriage. And there was another group picture of the imperial children during the white flower festival on another year. Try to go to livadia.org because I think that's where as I saw it. ;) :) Good Luck!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on July 04, 2005, 05:12:17 PM
(http://www.livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/81.jpg)
(http://www.livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/82.jpg)
(http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/oma1913_2.jpg)
You've probably seen these, but these are the only three I could find.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 04, 2005, 11:36:13 PM
The flower festival in Yalta was the event for the sonsumption fight.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 04, 2005, 11:36:40 PM
see above - consuption fight.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: divine_grace on July 05, 2005, 09:34:36 AM
You're welcome but clockworkgirl21 posted the pictures. Hikaru, I thought the White Flower Festival was for the tuberculosis sufferers? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Some books say it was for tuberculosis, some say it was for consumption. Thank you.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Arianwen on July 05, 2005, 09:58:42 AM
Quote
You're welcome but clockworkgirl21 posted the pictures. Hikaru, I thought the White Flower Festival was for the tuberculosis sufferers? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Some books say it was for tuberculosis, some say it was for consumption. Thank you.


Consumption was an earlier name given to tuberculosis. We assume today that the two diseases are the same.

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 05, 2005, 01:32:38 PM
I have read somewhere that the idea and form of this festival came from the Denmark or Germany.
It was not Russian festival.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 05, 2005, 01:34:34 PM
yes wen i lived in germany i kind of heard of somthing like that.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Ortino on July 06, 2005, 09:24:12 PM
In the catalogue Toys of the Tsar's Children there is a picture of the flower festival of 1914 where Anastasia, Alexei, and Olga are sitting on a bench with Tatiana and Marie behind them.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 07, 2005, 03:00:27 PM
Yes, Dear Ortino
This festival came to Russia from Sweden where it was founded in 1911. But almost at the same time it became popular in Russia. In Sweden this festival , dedicated to the fight with consuption, was called " White Flower" Festival. Its russian name is" Romashka" festival.
This festival took place in Livadia in 1912 and 1914 ( I do
not know about 1913).
This festival was some kind of the charity bazaar.
AF and Alexey sold hand -made things, postcards, albums , perfumes, photos in one pavillion and OTMA in another pavillion. Ladies in Waiting and officers from "Standarts" helped them.
The money they raised were sent to the consumpion bearers.
There are several photos from this festival.
But on each photos OTMAA are very serious and angry.
Maybe children were just very tired.'
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Daniel Briere on July 07, 2005, 10:31:35 PM
The 1912 Flower Festival, which was indeed a charity bazaar,  took place on May 14 (Old style), on Yalta’s mole where the Standart was anchored. This allowed the Empress to get some rest on board from time to time as she wasn’t feeling well.

The Imperial Family didn’t go to the Crimea in spring 1913 due to the Tercentenary celebrations.

The 1914 Festival was held on May 11, again on the mole. This time, the grand-duchesses had their own table at the bazaar. The tsarevich had a very good time thay day. Someone had a barrel filled with oats with a lot of hidden prizes, which included a bottle of champagne. For 50 kopecks, one could give it a try. Naturally, Alexis wanted to have a shot at it. He was overjoyed when he found the bottle which, unknown to him, had been placed so he could reach it. He was so happy he paraded on the mole with his prize, wanting to open it! It seems he and Derevenko had an arguement about it which lasted all day...Unfortunately I don't know how it ended!!

There are a number of other photos taken at these events; I'll try to post some later. I have also seen some charming newsreels and movie footage too!


Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 07, 2005, 11:51:15 PM
According to the Russian Sources, the
White Flower Festival took place on 20th April of 1912 and 19th April of 1914 (Old style).   ( In Romashka festival Tsar's family participated together with the Yalta citizens)
But 11th May of 1912 and in the May of 1914 Empresse did one more Charity Bazaar on the mole of her own.
( The photos of 1914 with flowers, have  the date - 19th April of 1914)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Daniel Briere on July 10, 2005, 02:27:44 PM
Hikaru : Thank you for setting the record straight regarding the dates of the Flower Festival :-[. I got my information from General Spiridovich’s memoirs. Obviously his memory failed him as he must have taken the Charity Bazaars on the mole for the White Flower Festivals :-/. I should have checked my books with photos as some are indeed dated April 20,1912. I don’t know to which 1914 photo you are referring to, as all photos posted by Clockworkgirl21 were taken in 1912. Indeed the children look quite serious. I don’t know why they would be angry though (maybe tired as you wrote). On the movie I have, they seem to have fun, parading in the Livadia Palace courtyard, bowing to the camera and smiling.

For those who wanted more photos: here’s one from Greg King’s book "The last Empress”.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/WhiteFlower4S.jpg)

There is a movie clip that can be seen on Discovery Chanel tapes “Last of the Czars” where the same lady with a white hat can be seen (Anna V.?), girls that look like Maria & Anastasia (from behind) and Alexis receiving donations. The lady then hands the donors a flower.

The following two photos seem to have been taken in 1914. Alexis looks taller, the girls (Olga & Tatiana?) dresses are different from the 1912 photos.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/WhiteFlower1S.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/Atamanets/WhiteFlower2S.jpg)



Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on July 10, 2005, 02:33:22 PM
Thank you for posting those pictures Daniel! I've not seen some of those before. The second picture that you post (the one with the wagon) I believe is the empress herself. At least to me it looks like it.

Thank you again!!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: matushka on July 10, 2005, 03:08:30 PM
one picture of 1914

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/clairecher/Crimee14fetedesfleurs.jpg

I have the one Ortino spoke about, but can not post it.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 11, 2005, 01:13:13 AM
(http://www.livadia.org/tanya/images/otmawhiteflowercrossbodice.jpg)
here's another one!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Ortino on July 11, 2005, 08:14:41 PM
The one that Baby_Tsarevitch posted is the one that I was referring to earlier.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 11, 2005, 08:38:44 PM
o right. it kind of looks like anastasia changed her hair stye, and looks a bit older.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Daniel Briere on July 11, 2005, 10:23:02 PM
Laura: yes, it’s indeed the Empress in the wagon. She can be seen in the same poney-drawn wagon on other photos from the Crimea (not taken at the Flower Festival). It looks as though she used it to travel around Livadia and Yalta.

According to a book I have, Matushka’s first photo was taken at the Livadia palace garage. A rarely seen place. I wonder if it still stands?

I had never seen Baby Tsarevich’s photo. Based on the girls’ dresses and Alexis’ height, it’s obvious to me that it was taken in 1914. Interesting to see what a two year difference can make!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 12, 2005, 01:09:39 AM
you mean the picture I posted was taken two years after all the other ones? sorry if I'm wrong :-/
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Daniel Briere on July 12, 2005, 10:12:55 PM
Yes, I mean that it seems the photo you’ve posted was taken in April 1914, two years after the first ones posted on this thread, by Clockworkgirl21 (1st, 2nd, 3rd photo), that were taken in April 1912. The 1st one I have posted is from 1912 too but my 2 others (Alexis standing with his mother in a wagon) were apparently taken in 1914, obviously on the same day as the one you’ve posted. Compare them and you’ll see that the girls’ dresses and hats are different, that they do look more mature and Alexis somewhat taller.

Precisely dating Romanov photos isn’t easy. Books are often vague or wrong. It often requires some research and looking at details…something like detective work really!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 13, 2005, 01:33:06 AM
I see the diffrence now, but if no one had told me that those were taken in diffrent years, I would still thought they were from the same year!

Anastasia and Marie changed very much in those two years! :)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: matushka on July 16, 2005, 09:02:46 AM
Monsieur Briere, could you tell us what was the protocol of the Festival, what people do for this feast. An other question, also to Hikaru: I read once again the Nicolas`diary for 19 april 1914 and see nothing about this. Went for a long walk with suit, afternoon all played tennis. Was the festival only in the morning? The Tsar was not in place, as suggested the photos (I never saw a photograph of the festival with him)? What tell us the film? And last, where can I find this film?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: etonexile on July 16, 2005, 10:24:19 AM
Didn't the Flower Festival go all day...until tea...about 5-ish?...It must have been dead exciting...if exhausting...for all involved. This was the one chance for most Russians to meet the Empress and her children...face-to-face. I've alles had the funny feeling that some poor souls must have gone slightly "nuts" in the situation...Buying all the flower pins and doilies... :o
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 16, 2005, 10:44:44 AM
Quote
Monsieur Briere, could you tell us what was the protocol of the Festival, what people do for this feast. An other question, also to Hikaru: I read once again the Nicolas`diary for 19 april 1914 and see nothing about this. Went for a long walk with suit, afternoon all played tennis. Was the festival only in the morning? The Tsar was not in place, as suggested the photos (I never saw a photograph of the festival with him)? What tell us the film? And last, where can I find this film?


19 of april is on my b-day  ;D there is a film of this event? i never knew that. yeah i dont understand why nicky wouldn't be there.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Forum Admin on July 16, 2005, 11:34:11 AM
The reason you can't find it for April 19 is that in 1914 the White flower Festival was held on May 11!
Alexandra had a large booth herself, and each GD had their own booth.  Nicholas was there all day.  This was the day that Alexei bought a chance to grab a prize blind out of a barrel and managed to grab a bottle of champagne.  He proudly carried it around all day and he and Derevenko spent the whole day quarrelling because Alexei wanted to drink his champagne and Derevenko wouldn't let him.

Oh, and the reason there was not one in 1913 is that the IF stayed in Petersburg that spring for the Tercentenary celebrations.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 16, 2005, 01:32:47 PM
In the catalogue the "Toys of the Tsar's children"
there is a photo signed by them with the date : 19th April of 1914.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: matushka on July 16, 2005, 01:57:45 PM
Dear Forum Administrator, thank you for your answer. I know these photographs. I know also that there was a big "bazar" as the Family called it, I read this entry of the diary, read the story about champaign in Eugenie de Grece. But it seems that the dresses are not the same (see the ceinture and other details). Is that me? And there is this date on the photo, Hikaru talled about. So I think that the question stay opened...
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Forum Admin on July 16, 2005, 03:42:30 PM
Then allow me to quote Spiridovitch's "Les Derneirs Anneees..." First, there is NO mention of any such event in April. Then page 443 (Vol. 2):

"On May 11, they opened on the quay, under the Patronage of and with the participation, as always, of Their Majesties, a charity party, called "The White Flower Festival".

The Empress' pretty booth served as the center of the bazaar.  The Grand Duchesses had their own kiosk of their own.  The tables of Princess Bariatinskaya, Mme. Popov, Princess Orlova, Countess Apraxina and Mme Voiekova rivalled each other in the beauty of their decoration and display of objects.

The Emperor and his daughters were rather permanently fixed there.  Around the quay was a continual surge and resurgance of crowds eager to see the Imperal Family."
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Lanie on July 16, 2005, 03:56:27 PM
Maybe in regards to the date people get confused due to the difference in the calendars?

The pictures of the girls with the dresses without the dark ribbon/belt around the waist definitely date from 1914... look at Tatiana's hair... and the ones FA posted I thought dated from the same year.  Maybe it's from some other charity bazaar the day before or after?  Did they only do this one day out of the year?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Forum Admin on July 16, 2005, 04:10:33 PM
No
Actually, it is not so hard to date the pictures. All of Vyroubova's photo albums at the Beineke are chronological.  With the exception of the photo from Greg King's Book, and the two Daniel B. posted of the cart, all the other photosint this thread (including the one from the Toys Exhibition catalogue) all come from the 1912 album at Yale.  The ONLY photos of the festival in the entire 1914 album are the two I put up.

I am fairly certain that the Toys exhibition catalogue is in error. Spirdovitch maintained accurate diaries and his chapters on the 1914 season at Yalta make no mention of any other charity bazaar that year. Now, in 1912, the Empress DID have a separate charity event in the fall at the People's House of Yalta.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 16, 2005, 11:29:39 PM
The data of the photo was written not as the text of the the catalogue , but as the data directly on the photo.
I have the memories of one of the officer of "Standardt" which name is Nechaev Who is telling that day of " White Romashka" was held on 20 th of April and that they gathered about 1360 roubles.
He is also telling that on 11th of May the Empresse did (last time) a charity bazaar on the mole .
So , obviously that  Spiridovich means a charity bazaar but not the Flower Festival.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 16, 2005, 11:30:37 PM
I think also that they did not think about "Flower Festival"that  it was the charity bazaar.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 17, 2005, 10:41:59 AM
yes didn't alix like give out little sweets and little food.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Ortino on July 18, 2005, 06:40:44 AM
Quote
No
Actually, it is not so hard to date the pictures. All of Vyroubova's photo albums at the Beineke are chronological.  With the exception of the photo from Greg King's Book, and the two Daniel B. posted of the cart, all the other photosint this thread (including the one from the Toys Exhibition catalogue) all come from the 1912 album at Yale.  The ONLY photos of the festival in the entire 1914 album are the two I put up.

I am fairly certain that the Toys exhibition catalogue is in error. Spirdovitch maintained accurate diaries and his chapters on the 1914 season at Yalta make no mention of any other charity bazaar that year. Now, in 1912, the Empress DID have a separate charity event in the fall at the People's House of Yalta.


How do you explain the differences in appearance then? The changes are entirely obvious and all the children are clearly older. The photograph is also dated at the bottom, not in a caption. It is possible that it turned up in the 1912 Yale Album by mistake when they made them available online and the 1914 one is incomplete.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Lanie on July 18, 2005, 12:48:39 PM
There are some weird discrepancies on the Beinecke Albums online--like in some album that has things from the war, there are photographs of Alix at Peterhof at the time that Anastasia had diptheria (which I think was in 1906).
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 18, 2005, 05:06:15 PM
i wonder was there any picture in the book "camera and the tsar"? because i have heard that book has lots of pictures. and i'm still waiting for that book to come.  :-/
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on July 18, 2005, 05:26:35 PM
A wonderfully generous forum Member by the name of "M" uploaded a Russian documentary HERE (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=alexei;action=display;num=1121713035) that has footage of this Flower Charity Event. It's quite an amazing documentary. Thanks again M!
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: hikaru on July 30, 2005, 02:54:25 PM
I have read in a one " very serious" book that the
White flower festival was held every year since 1911 in about  from 20 April through all country.
Volunteers had to sell the white flowers (which usually came from Sweden) and gathered the money for consuption bearers.
The price for one flower was fixed : 5 copeek for one.
A persone or volunteer had a special badge, Had her/his own name 's paper's sertificate, and also had in the hand a shield with flowers on it. The organisation in charge was " An association for the fight with consuption". Every volunteer had to pay the rental payment for a shield: 20 copeeks for one unit.
There were also " Rose Flower Festival" and "Blue Flower Festival" which was held also in March and April.
"Rose Flower Festival" (26th April)  was dedicated to the orphans - everybody was trying to gather money for them. For example for the money gathered in 1912 a very big orphanage house in Petersburg was built.
"Blue Flower Festival" (14th March) was dedicated to poor and ill children.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: imperial angel on October 21, 2005, 10:35:43 AM
There should be a book, and yes it should include Olga's and Tatiana's war efforts, but somehow I doubt that is going to happen. Olga was a nurse briefly, but then left because the brutal, realistic nature of work as a war nurse took a toll on her. She most likely had a breakdown, and that was the end of war work as a nurse for her. Tatiana proved to be a competent and practical nurse, with her practical nature proving useful to her. She was a good nurse judging from all the accounts we have. She was like her mother, Alexandra in this, she got the job done.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 21, 2005, 05:03:52 PM
There is some incident I remember, I can't recall exactly what happened, but someone twisted/broke their ankle at Tobolsk, I think it was, and Tatiana offered to help, saying, "I'm a nurse..." So sweet of her.  :D
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 21, 2005, 05:07:23 PM
I wonder what made Olga run into the closet? Perhaps she knew she was going to be sick and was looking for a towel? But then why not run to a sink? Maybe she saw one amputation(sp?) too many and needed a quiet place, and just got sick while she was in there?
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Sarushka on October 21, 2005, 06:25:39 PM
This is the first I've heard of the linen-closet incident. I'd like to know more -- does anyone recall where they read it??
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Lanie on October 21, 2005, 11:52:10 PM
Olga did not quit nursing--she just ended up handling linens and things, cleaning instruments, while Tatiana continued to help with the operations and other grisly cases.  On the way to Ekaterinburg Olga offered to assist one of the men accompanying them who injured his foot, I believe.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Sarushka on October 22, 2005, 08:35:27 AM
Lanie --

Do you know when Olga made the switch from the more intense jobs to linens & instruments? I read in Virginia Cowles's book that she only lasted a month with surgery & whatnot, which surprised me -- I had the impression it was much longer.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: rskkiya on October 22, 2005, 09:17:38 AM
Sarushka...
I am not familiar with this situation (the linen closet incident) however - perhaps she simply had a sensitive stomach, and rather than participate in operations - it was considered more effective for her to do other work.

[where's  my  :-*] ;)
LOL

rskkiya

Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: matushka on October 22, 2005, 03:10:48 PM
As far as I know, ON was a nurse more than a month. Reading the Chebotareva's diary, you discover entry about the Olga's difficulties in her work only in the second part of 1915. She stoped working as a nurse in october, but continue to help with instrument, doing the beds and others things. As Chebotareva wrote, "she can not see any more wounds". It was in october. As the same time, she got ill (anemy) and an entire month did not work at all.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Sarushka on October 22, 2005, 03:32:27 PM
Thank you, Matushka!

That's exactly the sort of information I was looking for.
:-*

Where can I read Chebotareva's diary? (I speak English and some Russian).
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: matushka on October 23, 2005, 07:47:01 AM
Sarah, at the moment I have only read large extacts of this diary. I take them from the book of Sergei Fomin about Alexandra Feodorovna "Skorbny angel". It was published in Moscow this year. I am looking for the entire diary, it was published in the Novy Jurnal, an american journal in russian. I gave the references in the thread about Valentina Ivanovna Chebotareva (see the section about friends, retainers and so on). I will have it soon.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: matushka on October 23, 2005, 08:02:58 AM
About Olga's problem, a quote from a wounded, Pavlov: (first he explain what she did every day in the lazaret, and then:) Someone told me that she worked in the operation room some times. But seeing the poor people with horribles deformations destroyed her fine nervous system, and she got up.
About Tatiana (after explanation of her work): How her tender organism could support the horribles things she saw, I simply do not know.
Pavlov was in the lazaret in the 2nd part of 1916 and until the end.
As usual, sorry for the translation. I hope it gave you an idea ;)
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: imperial angel on October 23, 2005, 09:29:34 PM
Quote
Olga did not quit nursing--she just ended up handling linens and things, cleaning instruments, while Tatiana continued to help with the operations and other grisly cases.  On the way to Ekaterinburg Olga offered to assist one of the men accompanying them who injured his foot, I believe.


Exactly, I hope I did not give people the impression that she quit nursing altogether. I was uninformed.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: tian79 on October 28, 2005, 06:55:23 AM
Little more information about Tatiana's committee.
Quote is from Nikolai II exhibition catalogue. The exhibition was held last year in Finland.

“The Special Committee of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna was founded to aid refugees, in particular, its representatives facilitated providing victims with shelter, jobs, as well as searching for people separated from their friends and relatives by military actions.”

“The Committee arranged fund raising for the victims of military actions called ‘A bucket of wheat of the new crop’, and measures for collecting things required by the army.“
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 01, 2005, 04:46:43 AM
There no one topic about the Imperial Family during the War, so i think there can be pictures from this time

(http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/4683/oaf12974hw.th.jpg) (http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf12974hw.jpg)

Its from Alias Site NAOTMAA, it is not online unfortantly!!!
(http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/2527/oaf12263fg.th.jpg) (http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf12263fg.jpg)

1916
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/57/notmaa191627mb.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=notmaa191627mb.jpg)

1916/2
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7493/oaf10433pr.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf10433pr.jpg)

1916/3

(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2227/oaf11986oi.th.jpg) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf11986oi.jpg)
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 01, 2005, 08:08:09 AM
Oh Olga... you've done it again. You've contributed greatly to the forum! Thank you!!  ;D
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 02, 2005, 02:33:25 AM
Alexandra a s a nurse
(http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/2264/oaf11305ur.th.jpg) (http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf11305ur.jpg)

Postcard, a gift for Dr. Botkin
(http://img451.imageshack.us/img451/3941/oaf11276av.th.jpg) (http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf11276av.jpg)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: matushka on November 10, 2005, 09:53:14 AM
an other picture of the 1914's festival
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/clairecher/1914fetedesfleurs.jpg
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: imperial angel on October 09, 2006, 12:52:47 PM
I agree with the last person's observation about those photos..they are so nice. As for the nursing, I thnink Real Anastasia's post was correct. It is understandable why nursing didn't come naturally for Olga. Not all of us can be good at everything, and this just wasn't Olga's thing. It certainly suited Alexandra well, as she wanted to actually deal with people/and be comfortable with people outside her own world. She felt comfortable with nursing in a way she never felt comfortable with a more public role as Empress.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: James1941 on October 09, 2006, 05:16:50 PM
Here she was, the consort of the sovereign emperor and all-Russian tsar, the second lady in the land, and she spent her time as a common nurse in her private hospital. Imagine how embarrassing it was for those poor soldiers to find the wife of their sovereign holding bedpans for them to use or washing their private parts. Think how you would feel in your place. It wasn't her job. She had far more important things to do.
There were hundreds, thousands, of young women who could do the job better than she could. One didn't find the Dowager Empress doing such  tasks. One didn't find Queen Mary or Queen Alexandra doing it. One didn't see the German Empress dressed in a nurses uniform performing such menial tasks. This was just one more example of Alexandra's perverted sense of her duties. She would have done far more good for her husband and the imperial cause if she had spent her days visiting the field hospitals and rehabilitation wards, visitisng the refugee camps for the displaced Russians, visiting workers in the munition factories that keep the war effort going. There were many more symbolic tasks she could have done. I think the general consensus of observers at the time and historians later that she did very little good and much damage by her
nursing stints. Even many of those who were in her hospital were either bothered by her presence or spoke insulting of her behind her back. She thought she was being humble, but she wasn't a humble person. She was Empress of Russia and should have acted like one.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 09, 2006, 07:38:56 PM
I think that none work could sit better to Alix and the girls than nurse's one. They were suffering along, with their country. England's princess were also nurses (I think there is a pic of Princess Mary wearing a nurse costume), and here , in all countries I read about, young girls and older ladies from high class circles, worked as nurses when there was a war around, or a natural catastrophe happens.

Alix was wounded along with her country; her heart was bleeding these awful days. And she felt close to Russian soul , helping common Russian people. She also tryed to show Olga and Tatiana the dark side of the war (I think that once, the Tsar bring Alexei to see injured soldiers in order to him to realize that war was not all about happy military marchs and bayonets shinning under the sun or comradery meals). I admire this Empress and her two beatiful and sensitive girls who had the courage to aproach the horros of the war and to know a little about daily Russian reality.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: James1941 on October 10, 2006, 12:46:07 AM
For RealAnastasia: I am going to debate a few points with you. Not because I wish to disparage  your admiration for Alexandra and her two daughters with regard to their nursing in the hospital. That is your absolute right and I have no right to gainsay it. However, I do disagree with several of the points you make to bolster that admiration. Please take this post as a dialog of interest not an attack on your personal beliefs.
Firstly: Princess Mary of Great Britain, Olga Alexandrovna, other royal ladies, and ladies of the nobility and wives of wealthy men who became nurses during the war are not equal to an empress. If you cite me one other empress or queen who donned a nurses uniform and worked full time in a hospital all during the war I will accede the point. My point is that an empress/queen had far more important duties to perform in her position that to hide herself away in a hospital in a compound guarded by scores of soldiers and sailors, to the neglect of her other duties. She simply did not understand her job. Secondly: as to her feeling close to the common Russian people, to the Russian soul, here is what she wrote to Nicholas in a letter on 14 December, 1916, just a few months away from the beginning of the revolution: "Be firm. I your wall, behind you and won't give way - I know He (Rasputin) leads us right. It's getting calmer and better, only one wants to feel Youir Hand - how long, years, people have told me the same - "Russia loves to feel the whip' -its their nature - tender love and then the iron hand to punish and guide." Here is the wife of the ruler talking about whipping her subjects, lashing them because they want it. If this is love for the common people then you can have her love, give me something else. This was the same excuse whitle slave owners in the American south used to justify their horrible treatment of their black slaves. The slaves were savages and couldn't be controlled unless they were whipped now and again. In another letter to her husband the same year she relates how a young officer who was wounded and was being treated in the hospital of which Marie and Anastasia were patrons had been sent away because he spoke out against something Rasputin had done. Some concern for the poor wounded soldiers! The poor woman didn't have a clue as to what the "real" Russian people wanted.
Thirdly, you write that she wanted to show the girls a little about daily Russian life. I don't think spending a few hours working in a hospital that was warm, well lit, and had plenty of food was showing them much about the daily life of most Russians, especially when they went home to a warm palace, that was stocked with food, and where they were waited on hand and foot by an army of servants. The commandant of the Ipatiev House relates that the four grand duchesses didn't even known how to properly wash their underwear. He had to buy a book and call in some people to show them how to wash clothes. So much for them knowing how real people lived. Fourthly, when workers from the factories and women went out in the streets of Petrograd in February, 1917, to protest the lack of fuel (they were freezing) and the fact they had to stand in line for hour after hour to get a small bit of food, Alexandra wrote to Nicholas this: "It's a hooligan movement, young boys and girls running about and screaming they have no bread, only to excite - then the workmen preventing others from work - if it were very cold they would probably stay indoors. But this will pass and quieten down - if the Duma would only behave itself - one does not print its worst speeches." The woman had no idea what the real situation was. If she had gotten out and among her people she would have seen how the real Russian lived, not how she perceived them in her fantasy.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2006, 11:29:33 AM
Well, I think that the nursing was more realistic than some things otma could have done, and was closer to real life. They were not merely figure heads, they were actually doing somethimg constructive. They most likely learned much from it. I also think the soldiers were pleased to have otma around. If Alexandra wasn't a nurse as well, that was not a good examole for her daughters. She almost had to be if they were, and more than that, since it was beneficial for Tatiana at least, it was good that she was. I

I am not sure how the soldiers thought of her, but at least she was doing something more than many Czarinas would have. She was contributing, whatever way you want to look at it. You can see it badly, or can you can choose to see it in a positive light. There were other things that she could have done, perhaps better ones. But she chose to get involved at the level that was comfortable for her, and did well in that sphere. Of course, at times her view was unrealistic, but she was often put in a position where she was bound to be so in her outlook. She just believed that historically, the Russians needed force. She perhaps meant it a more figurative way, that they needed iron goverment, i.e. autocracy, not that they needed beating or whatever.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: James1941 on October 10, 2006, 12:49:44 PM
When she wrote Nicholas that "they" should be taken out and shot, hung up, was she speaking figuratively. She was talking about some members of the Duma. And I question her "lady bountiful" attitude toward her hospital work. Why didn't they go work in an ordinary hospital, filled with common soldiers, instead of a small hospital in which the "officers only" patients were carefully selected. Her sister-in-law Olga could have given her some pointers on that. I will agree with you on one point. You see her as someone to admire. I don't. I see her as a mentally unstable woman who did great harm. So let us agree to disagree.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: James1941 on October 10, 2006, 03:08:29 PM
And to imperial angel, please see my post apologizing to you on the thread of How Well Did Nicholas Know Alexandra. I hope you will accept my apology.
Title: Re: OTMA's Nursing at WW I
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2006, 08:46:18 AM
Yes, the duma did seem to get Alexandra upset. No doubt it was because she viewed the very existence of the Duma as a infringement on her husband's perogative as autocrat. She wanted to preserve her son's inheiritance. Alexandra perhaps should have been in a ordinary hospital, but she would have been even more out of place there than in an officer's one, surely. I think she had the right motives when she became a nurse, to me. It was better than her views on goverment. I think she had some things to admire in her, yes, but we are all only human. Ella is more the type to wholeheartedly admire. I try to be realistic, but also not just condemn somone for things they didn't do, in my opinion.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on September 23, 2008, 01:45:42 PM
Hey Gang,
So I'm trying to think of examples in which Nicholas, Alexandra, and family did things in return to Russia.
A few come to mind -

There is the obvious:
Alix, Olga, and Tatiana nursing during WWI, and Maria and Anastasia giving the guards company

And then there is the obscure:
- I heard once that Alix tried to start up a knitting society among Russian women, to give the knitted items to charity. (Although I heard it didn't go over well, at least her thoughts were in the right place).
- Olga N. giving her "allowance" to the poor

What am I missing? I believe as a group, the seven were quite charitable, but for the life of me I can't think of anything aside from the above examples.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Sarushka on September 23, 2008, 02:33:04 PM
Tatiana headed a refugee committee during WWI. I believe Olga also had a committee of some sort, but I don't recall the details.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on September 23, 2008, 02:44:52 PM
Thanks Sarushka! Can always count on ya!
Thank you for the info, I'll look into it, and see if I can find any info on those committees.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Ally Kumari on September 23, 2008, 02:49:57 PM
Though the help may not be the greatest, little OTMA were all knitting socks and other things for soldiers during Russia-Japaneese war, and also floded into envelopes little letters that could soldiers fill and send to their families.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on September 23, 2008, 08:27:40 PM
Thanks GDAlly! I'll look into that too...

What does everyone think? Did Nicholas and his family make contributions back to Russia?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Michael HR on September 24, 2008, 05:24:45 AM
I'm sure they did but may have kept the source private and from public gaze. The accounts of the Emperor and Empress might show what went out in this way?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Ally Kumari on September 24, 2008, 05:40:17 AM
I´ve also read somewhere that Maria was saving money for crippled children also.

Alix was also giving old clothes to poor - but before giving them she always changed the shell buttons for normal ones.

Don´t know if it´s a contribution, but Nicolas also abbandoned a tradition of every village (?) giving him a golden plate (probably every eyar) and he only accepted bread since then, knowing that some villages just couldn´t afford such thing.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Michael HR on September 24, 2008, 05:53:43 AM
He must have had a lot of golden plates by then! Wise move IMHO
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: nena on September 24, 2008, 08:09:46 AM
Alexandra Feodorovna opened some schools and lazarets...... ;)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Rodney_G. on November 05, 2008, 05:53:52 PM
Okay, here we go. This may be more than you were asking for, Laura, but what the hey!

The IF gave an enormous amount to Russia throughout Nicholas' reign. This might take the form of outright money contributions (ultimately millions of rubles over the whole period). Or it might take the form of sponsoring some charity or institution or event, at a minimum by granting the use of the Imperial person's name and its resultant prestige. And of course  Imperial  contribution to Russia might take the form of hands- on work or in -person efforts. All seven of NAOTMAA did some of all of the above at some time.
Previous posters have given some examples. Some others: Yes, Olga did lead a wartime committee based in St. Petersburg.I think something to do with soldiers'  families back home. Not sure.

The story is told of a youngish Olga being moved by the sight of a mother with a young crippled child. Olga intervened to pay for full treatment of the child at a clinic with her own funds.

Alexandra established many training institutes and hospitals even before the war. She took a personal interest in them and expected (though not always succeeding) that they would be well run.
One noteworthy example was in the Crimean resort town of Eupatoria. This was a major spa and therapy center where Alexandra for years had established a state of the art sanatorium complex with all the best in current treatment techniques: electrotherapy, hydrotherapy, x-ray machines, mudbaths(!) and massage. At the start of the war,  hospital facilities for 125 officers and 45 lower ranks were created. Alexandra was very interested in this and received a report on the state of things when Nicholas made a personal inspection in May, 1916.

Another major charitable event were the charity bazaars near the waterfront at Yalta. There locals and Alexandra and the children manned tables and booths at which were sold items made or otherwise acquired by the contributors. There A and the children competed to see who could raise the most money for charity. Though it was a fun event for the IF  it was a big revenue-raiser for the beneficiaries. This btw was called "White Flower Day" and many of you may recall the film and photos of OTMAA parading and posing in their finest while carrying shepherd- style staffs with curved flower tops. (Olga looks a little sheepish and Alexei is typically showing off. )
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Rodney_G. on November 05, 2008, 06:42:08 PM
cont..

As the sovereign family NAOTMAA naturally took great interest in the Russian military. Each of them, as part of a long imperial tradition were granted honorary command of a chosen regiment (a colonelcy). This might happen at birth as with Alexei or in her early teens for each of OTMA.
This was a source of great pride and inspiration for the selected regiment as well as for the honorary commander. The honored colonel would have his/her own uniform and regalia and would review the regimental parade on special occasions. Sometimes the Romanov colonel  would pay for the expense of regimental uniform decoration. GD Olga paid 20, 000 rubles to provide her 3rd Elizavetgradski Hussars with distinctive pelisses.

I don't claim that this role as honorary regimental commander was unduly demanding personally, but it required a commitment of the chosen Romanov that he/she took seriously and which contributed to Russian army morale , especially in wartime.

Finally I would point out that Nicholas made a dramatic gesture on behalf of his beloved Russia when he withdrew that part of his enormous personal fortune invested or held in foreign banks or enterprises at the outbreak of  the war in 1914. These vast funds then were applied to the national war effort in all its forms. The total of such funds is not known exactly but it represented a huge contribution.

And of course, through an irony of history, in the end everything they had was returned to Russia, though not intentionally.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 06, 2008, 01:43:47 PM
Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.
Thanks for your input Rodney! There is a Soviet-based individual in one of my classes who can only say the most negative things about NII and his family. (most of which are actually incorrect) I have be counter-arguing with him (not that the IF is perfect, but they certainly didn't eat children for breakfast) and I appreciate your points.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: nena on April 12, 2009, 02:58:01 AM
Sorry for updating, I may add that 'White Flower Festivals' at Livadia in 1912/4, including bazaars made by Tsarina were appropriated for fight against tuberculosis, is is true? Since, I found photo of Tsarevich  'giving white flower to wounded soldier, as a symbol of fight against tuberculosis'.

(I wanted just to learn more about that Flower Festivals made by IF in summer of 1912, at Livadia).
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Sarushka on April 12, 2009, 07:42:56 AM
Yes, that's right.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Sarushka on April 12, 2009, 01:12:45 PM
In many books, the captions on photos of the imperial children during White Flower Festivals say that OTMAA are carrying their Brownie box cameras on straps around their neck, but they're actually collection boxes for T.B. donations. ;-)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: nena on April 12, 2009, 01:20:13 PM
Really? I think I saw your one thread about those cameras Livadia photos, but should we start new thread about those festivals with some information, but I think there is thread about Tsarina's bazaars?

 
I think their (OTMA's) helps to peasants at Stavka can be kind of contributions.
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: nena on April 20, 2009, 08:52:17 AM
Nicholas II and Church/Schools/Conutry donation:

Since 1894 till 1912, were built up:

211 new men and women Monasteries
7546 new Cathedrals
In 1902 -- new rule about pensions
1901- new comittete for Icon drawing
 In 1908 - new rule for obligate schooling
Till 1913 there were 130.000 schools.

Some of Russian economic statistic during NII regime could be found in 'L' Economiste Europeen' magazine, by Edmon Terry. During 1913, Russia brought biggest agrarian donations, and became one of most powerful countries. I saw statistic in one Documentary, and from 1920 magazine also.

Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Olga Maria on April 23, 2009, 01:50:14 PM
Are thee any places named for their honor after their death (during Communistic times or just after their bodies were discovered)?
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: nena on April 23, 2009, 03:29:39 PM
I think there is 'Tsesarevich Aleksei' school somewhere in Russia, from what I have read.  ;-)
Title: Re: NAOTMAA - Their Contributions to Russia
Post by: Olga Maria on April 23, 2009, 07:36:02 PM
Oh, thank you. Sad there's none named for Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana,Maria, and Anastasia.