Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Succession and the Throne => Topic started by: czarist1 on May 09, 2005, 07:42:01 PM

Title: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: czarist1 on May 09, 2005, 07:42:01 PM
I was wondering, how likely is it that Russia will brong back the czar(tsar) and bacome a monarchy? also in the event that it does will the capital switch back to St. Petersburg or stay at Moscow. I am a very strong supporter of monarchies and hope that Russia will switch to monarchy .
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Dasha on May 09, 2005, 09:46:28 PM
I honestly doubt that Russia will bring monarchy back.  The country has so many problems, that to have an extra gang of mouths to feed via taxes and what have you will just set the country into a deeper trouble.  
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: czarist1 on May 10, 2005, 02:33:48 PM
Thanks for your answer, even if it may not be what i want to hear :'(
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: czarist1 on May 11, 2005, 05:38:27 PM
I would epriciate any feedback from another knowlagable person
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on May 12, 2005, 12:06:31 PM
I'm more a "guesser" than a "knowledgeable person" on this, but here are my thoughts:

In the rare cases when nations have returned to monarchical rule (England under Charles II, France under Louis XVIII), they have done so within a generation (i.e., while monarchy was still a living memory); they have done so at a time when monarchy was viewed elsewhere as a form of government that could work well if the formula could be gotten right; and they brought monarchy back in much-curtailed fashion.

I don't think these conditions prevail in modern Russia:

(1)  There is no living memory of what things under the tsars were really like, so people would be wading into murkier waters and hence would require more prodding or desperation to do so.

(2)  The only western monarchy that currently exists as anything more than a rump institution is in Britain, and its recent descent into an existence defined increasingly by tabloid sensationalism and by royal hi-jinks does not auger well for its appeal to the next generation.  So there's no viable model there for Russia.

(3)  The only point in bringing monarchy back in Russia would be to bring order to a society and economy that have descended into hooliganism as a means of organizing complex activity.  This implies a strong monarchy, not a curtailed one.

As much as I daydream about the return of regal splendor and the rising of palaces from their figurative ashes, I like Russia too much to see it give up on its seemingly endless struggle to find a form of democracy that works for its people.

Even in Austria, where monarchy left a far less sullied reputation than in Russia, discussions about bringing back the Hapsburgs have been stillborn.  It would be a quaint experiment in Austria.  In Russia it would signal one of the world's most important societies giving up on itself.

I, for one, hope it never happens.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David40 on August 19, 2005, 05:48:22 AM
Quote
In the rare cases when nations have returned to monarchical rule (England under Charles II, France under Louis XVIII), they have done so within a generation


It was a rather long generation (38 years) in Spain, though.

Actually the Spanish situation could happen in Russia, too.  A dictator agrees to the restoration of monarchy upon their death because (from the point of view of the dictator) (a) it limits infighting for the succession while the dictator is alive and (b) the dictator doesn't care what happens after they die.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David40 on August 19, 2005, 02:29:00 PM
Quote

It was a rather long generation (38 years) in Spain, though.

Actually the Spanish situation could happen in Russia, too.  A dictator agrees to the restoration of monarchy upon their death because (from the point of view of the dictator) (a) it limits infighting for the succession while the dictator is alive and (b) the dictator doesn't care what happens after they die.


I think another factor--equally important--is that monarchies provide (or provided) a long-term, stable, often (but not always) predictable succession.  If a nation has outgrown autocratic monarchy, but is having difficulty forming a stable alternative form of government, restoring the monarchy (usually in a much less autocratic form) is an attractive alternative precisely because there is usually one (or at most two) clear claimants to the throne.  The problem of deciding who is to rule the country is solved immediately.  You give the restored monarch enough power to provide some stability, but not nearly enough to allow them to revert back to autocracy.  It can be a very effective tool in the transition to democracy.

The difficulty in Russia is that there is no clear claimant to the throne.  There are at least three lines that are said to have some claim (Maria/George, the Ilyinskys, and the head of the RFA), although at least two of those three lines have no professed interest in the job.  So if Russia were threatened with instability, with different factions competing for control, almost certainly the possibility of a royal restoration would be accompanied by different factions aligning themselves with different branches of the family.  The problem (of instability)--which would be the only reason to consider a restoration in the first place--would unfortunately remain unsolved.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on August 21, 2005, 10:05:30 PM
The point about controversy over the rightful succession is well taken.

Also, I think the Orthodox Church would be a wild card in a restoration of monarchy in Russia that could prevent restoration from playing the stabilizing role it has in other countries.  Some of their pronouncements have signalled a dream that a restoration would be a prelude to the return of Old Russia.  That's one clock that cannot be turned back.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: AlexP on August 21, 2005, 11:25:26 PM
Quote
The point about controversy over the rightful succession is well taken.

Also, I think the Orthodox Church would be a wild card in a restoration of monarchy in Russia that could prevent restoration from playing the stabilizing role it has in other countries.  Some of their pronouncements have signalled a dream that a restoration would be a prelude to the return of Old Russia.  That's one clock that cannot be turned back.


Dear Tsarfan,

Your comments about the role of Russian Orthodox Church almost caused me to fall off my chair -- or perhaps I do not understand what you mean correctly.  Forgive me, but I think that I may have the "pulse" of the various Russian Orthodox Churches on this matter, and  would like to share my thoughts with you very kindly, group by group.

If I misunderstood you, please let me know.

1.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Western Europe, headed by the Archbishop Gabriel (the "Paris Exarchate").

    website:   www.exarchat.org

    Openly in favor of a return of the monarchy, from the Archbishop himself to all of the clergy.  Exceptionally monarchistic.

2.  The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, headed by Metropolitan Lauras (the biggest of the Russian Churches outside of Russia).

    website:   www.synod.com

    Absolutely promonarchy, unfailingly since 1917.  No question here.  This is a matter of open position.  Soon to be assimilated into the mainstream Russian Church where they are highly respected and will carry a great deal of influence.



3.   The Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, headed by the Patriarch, His Holiness, Alexis II (THE Russian Church, and the largest Orthodox Church in terms of baptized numbers -- approximately 125,000,000, in number of parishes, clergy, hierarchy -- a Phoenix resussicated from the ashes).

      www.mospat.ru

      Since they are on a case-by-case basis, let's look closely here:

     His Holiness, the Patriarch.

     Timid at first, and very much a creature of the Soviet Regime, he has returned to his roots as a son of the nobility and goes OUT of his way to include the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna in everything and to favorize all things monarchical, without making any direct statements.   Hedging his bets.  But he is 76 years old now and in increasingly ill health.  Inside take:  decidedly a monarchist.  Deeds speak louder than words.

     His Eminence, Metropolian Juvenaly, Head of the Synodal Commission which recommended sainthood for the Imperial Family.

      Known by those close to him as a monarchist.  Low-key under the Soviet regime.  An eminent public speaker on the cause.

      His Beautitude, Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev.  A republican, simply and directly.  Too busy involved trying to save his own skin in the religious mess he created in Kiev to pay attention to anything else.

       His Eminence Metropolitan Philaret of Minsk.  Very quietly a monarchist.  Sides with the Patriarch and Metropolitan Juvenaly on votes on these issues.  Has opened more parishes and monasteries and new churches in Belorus than he has been given credit for, and pays tremenduous attention to the Saints of the Ancien Regime.

       His Eminence, Metropolitan Kyrill, the Church's Foreign Minister.  A neutral.  Will put his finger up in the wind and see which way things are going.  The face of the Church to the West, currently too busy fighting with the Pope to pay attention anywhere else.

       His Eminence Metropolitan Vladimir of St. Petersburg. By far the most conversative churchman in the group, and thus a confirmed Monarchist.  Far less a creature of the Soviet regime than the others.

       His Grace, Metropolitan Kliment, Secretary of the Patriarch and being groomed for the Patriarchal Throne.  A disgusting creature if there ever was one.  He was once Bishop of the United States and Canada until he was politely ordered out by the State Department for activities incompatible with his status.  Another figure in the wind and truly a shadowy and shady creature.

      Together they form the Synodal Committee that directs the Church.  As you can see, the important ones -- and thus the majority are monarchical.

      As for the various Abbots who head the many monasteries, yes, 100%.  There is not a republican among them.  And as is the Father Confessor to the President of Russia in Moscow.  Also a monarchist.

     As for the majority of the bishops and archbishops in the provinces, yes, indeed, but they will follow orders (at least publicly).

    So I do not see a wild card here at all.  The cards are actually in and it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 10-15 years.  And remember -- the Church is solidly behind the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna -- that is an accepted position.  The others were written off a long time ago.

   With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.


     
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Belochka on August 22, 2005, 02:23:32 AM
Quote
 Some of their pronouncements have signalled a dream that a restoration would be a prelude to the return of Old Russia.  That's one clock that cannot be turned back.



Clocks can certainly be manipulated to follow two pathways, however to function correctly that clock can only proceed forward.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on August 22, 2005, 04:42:21 PM
Quote
Dear Tsarfan,

Your comments about the role of Russian Orthodox Church almost caused me to fall off my chair -- or perhaps I do not understand what you mean correctly.  Forgive me, but I think that I may have the "pulse" of the various Russian Orthodox Churches on this matter, and  would like to share my thoughts with you very kindly, group by group.

If I misunderstood you, please let me know. 


I think you misunderstood me, AlexP, but I'm glad you did.  Your prelate-by-prelate analysis was quite informative and fascinating.

When I said that the Church was a wild card, I did not mean that the Church's position would be wishy-washy.  I meant that the Church would be decidedly pro-monarchical . . . but that such a position might put them out of step with much of the Russian populace.  I think (and I'm certainly no expert on this) that many Russians would like to see religion play a major role again in the affairs of their nation.  But I'm not so sure that means they favor a restoration of the monarchy.

My point was that if the Church, to whom people want to turn for many reasons, takes a position in favor of a form of government for which there is much less support, the Church's involvement in this matter might further confuse rather than stabilize the political situation.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 22, 2005, 06:56:05 PM
Quote

It was a rather long generation (38 years) in Spain, though.

Actually the Spanish situation could happen in Russia, too.  A dictator agrees to the restoration of monarchy upon their death because (from the point of view of the dictator) (a) it limits infighting for the succession while the dictator is alive and (b) the dictator doesn't care what happens after they die.


This situation worked for Juan Carlos because General Franco made finalised his plans well before his death. The restoration of the Portuguese Monarchy was thwarted because of poor planning on the part of President Salazar, who died before arrangements could be made for Dom Duarte Nuno or Dom Duarte Pio to succeed him.

David
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: AlexP on August 22, 2005, 07:44:27 PM
Quote

I think you misunderstood me, AlexP, but I'm glad you did.  Your prelate-by-prelate analysis was quite informative and fascinating.

When I said that the Church was a wild card, I did not mean that the Church's position would be wishy-washy.  I meant that the Church would be decidedly pro-monarchical . . . but that such a position might put them out of step with much of the Russian populace.  I think (and I'm certainly no expert on this) that many Russians would like to see religion play a major role again in the affairs of their nation.  But I'm not so sure that means they favor a restoration of the monarchy.

My point was that if the Church, to whom people want to turn for many reasons, takes a position in favor of a form of government for which there is much less support, the Church's involvement in this matter might further confuse rather than stabilize the political situation.


Dear Tsarfan,

Thank you very much for explaning.  Yes, I fully concur with you.  All of this could indeed lend itself to great confusion.  What most likely would happen be this :

First, a very sublte but prevalent "information" or "disinformation" campaign; second, a not-so-subtle presentation of the monarchy as the only salvation for a diseased nation; third, an intentional blurring of the lines between the church and the institution of the monarchy.

And if there is one unfortunate thing that needs to be said about Russia, well, it's unfortunately that the will of the people never seems to be heard, at least not throughout all history.

Tsarfan, thank you for your very good posting.

With all of the best,


A.A.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: TampaBay on August 23, 2005, 02:30:47 PM
AlexP,

Why does not Russia just have a binding referendum on the Retorstion of the Monarchy?  It is very simple "yes or no"!  

Let the people vote and thereby decide.  

Greece did it!

TampaBay
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Joy0318 on December 29, 2005, 06:25:30 PM
Intersting thread. I had just thought about this question not long ago after having read the book the Romanov Prophecy by Steve Berry in which a search is on for the rightful heir to the Russian throne after the country elects to bring back the Tsar. I had wondered how likely that was to really happen and what some of the expesrts here would think about it. It seems there are many different opinions here. I for one would like to see it happen as a constitutional monarchy but can't see it  happeening in the near future.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: James1941 on December 31, 2005, 01:12:23 PM
There is a good possibility (stress possibility) that the monarchy in Serbia could be restored. They have, like in Russia, begun using the old royalist symbols. The royalist party in Serbia also has a very viable and attractive claimant in the person of Crown Prince Alexander. He has three very attractive sons by his first wife (a Braganza-Orleans princess) and he is undoubtedly the heir. He and his family have also been smart enough to avoid controversy and scandal. He is popular in Serbia. If the Serbian monarchy were restored, it being also an Orthodox monarchy and Slavic, it might stimulate interest in Russia. This is, admittedly, a long shot.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: AkshayChavan on January 18, 2006, 03:02:41 PM
I am a hardcore monarchist. But i hope Russia never sees the likes of Romanovs again. I have read a lot of books on russian history and some of them have really brought tears to my eyes. The romanov rule was exceptionally cruel (i don't mean the family). The only parallels i can think of Saddam Hussein's Iraq or Gaddafi's Libya. Neither Austria, Germany or Turkey were as barbaric as Romanov Russia. As much as I love Imperial Russia, crimes by communists cannot wash the crimes of romanovs. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on January 18, 2006, 07:09:42 PM
Quote
There is a good possibility (stress possibility) that the monarchy in Serbia could be restored. They have, like in Russia, begun using the old royalist symbols. The royalist party in Serbia also has a very viable and attractive claimant in the person of Crown Prince Alexander. He has three very attractive sons by his first wife (a Braganza-Orleans princess) and he is undoubtedly the heir. He and his family have also been smart enough to avoid controversy and scandal. He is popular in Serbia. If the Serbian monarchy were restored, it being also an Orthodox monarchy and Slavic, it might stimulate interest in Russia. This is, admittedly, a long shot.


A restoration of a limited monarchy under Crown Prince Nikola is even more likely in an independent Kingdom of Montenegro than in a unified state of Serbia-Montenegro under Crown Prince Alexander. The forthcoming end to Serbia-Montenegro might even help Crown Prince Alexander in his quest to restore the monarchy in what remains of Serbia.

DAP
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 18, 2006, 07:20:43 PM
Personally, I doubt that. Montenegro, perhaps. But in Serbia, the family is at odds with each other and there is more opposition to the monarchy than support for it.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Belochka on January 26, 2006, 06:26:17 AM
Russia needs to better understand and practise her newly created democratic rights for the benefit of all her citizens.

Russia and the Russian people do not need to be burdened by the ties of monarchic rule, and especially coming from those who do not choose to live in Russia.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on January 26, 2006, 02:59:39 PM
Quote
Russia needs to better understand and practise her newly created democratic rights for the benefit of all her citizens.


Are you refering to the democratic rights that the Russian people have lost under the Putin administration, like freedom of the press, direct elections of governors, the freedom not to have your business property confiscated by the government?

David
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Nadezhda Edvardovna on January 28, 2006, 01:34:28 PM
I think that one issue Russia must resolve before a restoration could become a real possibility is the character of post-communist Russia in the modern world.  About five years ago, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (http://www.carnegieendowment.org/) held a conference on this issue, and from reading the papers presented there, it is clear to me that Russia hasn't figured out if it is part of the developing world or the first world, if it is Asian or European.  The most persuasive commentators at the conference argued that Russia must find a "third way" though they couldn't identify what it would be.

These conflicts are well-developed, for example, in Ukraine, where electoral politics revolve greatly around Ukraine's pro-European (or independent) policy, and how Russia responds thereto.

A monarchy would be a uniting factor, but Russia needs to decide around what national character they wish to be united.

Pax, Nadezhda
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Belochka on January 28, 2006, 10:20:22 PM
Quote

Are you refering to the democratic rights that the Russian people have lost under the Putin administration, like freedom of the press, direct elections of governors, the freedom not to have your business property confiscated by the government?

David


Something like that yes.

Also I await the day when internal passports do not have to be carried when one ventures outside the front door, not to be subjected to random street searches because a person may appear darker than their neighbor, or to freely purchase a simple inter-urban train ticket just to travel some distance from your residential zone and so on ...
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on January 28, 2006, 11:05:17 PM
Quote

Something like that yes.

Also I await the day when internal passports do not have to be carried when one ventures outside the front door, not to be subjected to random street searches because a person may appear darker than their neighbor, or to freely purchase a simple inter-urban train ticket just to travel some distance from your residential zone and so on ...


That is interesting that you dislike the internal passports. I have been telling American friends for years how positive it would be if we had them in the US. They are a wonderful crime deterent and a simple way to deal with illegal aliens.

As you will ask, no I did not mind getting asked for my passport five to ten times a week.

David
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on January 30, 2006, 06:19:16 AM
Quote
Internal passports . . . .  They are a wonderful crime deterent and a simple way to deal with illegal aliens.


They are also a wonderful way for a government to track the comings and goings of the citizenry.  The Nazis, for instance, found them very handy for tracking the whereabouts of Jews.  With an administration in the U.S. that is trying to subpoena Google records to see how many people are accessing sex sites, I am not ready to trust the U.S. government with the power to know where I was any time they want to know.

I lived in West Berlin in the mid-'70s and am personally acquainted with the use the East German government made of its internal passport system.

I'd much rather live with the consequences of illegal immigration than with the consequences of a government having easy means to impose ideological or behavioral conformity.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 05, 2006, 10:31:29 AM
Take a look on the kingdoms of Europe of today, especially the Scandinavian could be models for a Russian monarchy, one of Russia’s great and much beloved Czarina Marie Feodorovna actual came from Denmark. I strongly believe that Russia need a unifying symbol, of course not a absolute monarchy but a monarchy which have certain influence even the politics.
Remember a political party represent only a part of the population, The Czar represent the whole population.
All that was created under the Czars are ruin under the politicians, now Imperial Russia is divided in several countries, which furthermore are in conflict with each other, don’t forget The Czar was not only Emperor over Russia but also over Ukraine, Kazakhstan and so on.
Christian
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 05, 2006, 11:14:58 AM
That "Empire" does not exist any longer. Do you suggest that Russia go back and re-conquer those nations ?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 08, 2006, 05:31:30 AM
I don’t like the idea to re-conquer, more like a state form such as USA. None of these former Russian territories are doing very well, including Russia itself, under the more or less corrupt leaders and politicians. Only Finland is a real democratic and doing it very well indeed. Finland could be a model to all these territories. At the beginning of last century Russia was in great advance (in the industrial and agricultural field) but also great wealth in raw material. Greater political development in form of more democratic reforms. It was just a matter of time before Russia would be among Europe’s great democratic and industrial countries.
I do not think all these countries today really want to be democratic or to give its people a better life, some get very rich but the majorities get poorer. We have to continue exactly on the same spot where we left before the communist stole and ruined the country.
Christian

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 08, 2006, 11:47:40 AM
The U.S. is not a voluntary association of sovereign states.  They had a civil war in the 19th century to establish that fact.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 08, 2006, 01:25:31 PM
Most of U.S. territory was taken by acts of war [or the treat of it] and outright purchase with no regard to the wishes of the natives.
In the case of the [former] Russian Empire, those states that are now independant could hardly wait for release from the Russian control they had been under for centuries. I think some even tried for independance after the revolutions/civil war. It would seem highly unlikely that they would rush into any "voluntary" union at this point. Even with the less than ideal regimes at least they are THEIR regimes, not someone imposed by Moscow. Also, some of those nations are Islamic.  They never had any affection for the Romanovs to begin with. Others are anxious to join the EU rather than any sort of reunion with Russia.
On the Russian side, what makes anyone think they would WANT the old empire back ? Russians are having enough trouble putting itself together, the least thing they could use is more problems from the "provinces".
If there is any role for the Romanovs in modern Russia, I see it exactly as MV is doing. Involvement in Church charity and such.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tania+ on February 08, 2006, 06:49:56 PM
Dear Christian II

I'm fully in agreement with you, save up to the point that Russia must do it and offer it, peacefully. Architects of the New Russia, must take in every understanding of the people's needs, and the laws that will belong to the peoples for generations to come. Poor Russia has more than suffered enough, and more extensively in human loss than most any other country on the map. Still today no real known numbers have been established on the loss of lives. It's said that range to be an inordinate loss than of any lives lost, known today. No, Russia must never relive any type of political nightmares again. Never is too soon.

Your more than correct in what you have stated.Political parties represent only part of the population. The scandanavian model of governing looks to me to be one of the best.  ;) Thanks for your input.

Tatiana+

Quote
Take a look on the kingdoms of Europe of today, especially the Scandinavian could be models for a Russian monarchy, one of Russia’s great and much beloved Czarina Marie Feodorovna actual came from Denmark. I strongly believe that Russia need a unifying symbol, of course not a absolute monarchy but a monarchy which have certain influence even the politics.
Remember a political party represent only a part of the population, The Czar represent the whole population.
All that was created under the Czars are ruin under the politicians, now Imperial Russia is divided in several countries, which furthermore are in conflict with each other, don’t forget The Czar was not only Emperor over Russia but also over Ukraine, Kazakhstan and so on.
Christian

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 09, 2006, 10:21:26 AM
It took force to assemble the Russian Empire, it took force to hold it together under the tsars, it took force to hold it together under the soviets, and it's taking force even today to keep the rump intact.  What has changed that would make the former components now willingly subordinate their fates again to a tsarist government dominated by ethnic Russians, even a constitutional one?

Granted, the breaking up of Eastern Europe into states so small that they have barely the population and resources of a large Western city (Czech Republic ~10 million people; Slovak Republic ~5 million, Austria ~12 million, etc.) does not auger well for their future economic development.  But most of the constituent states of the old Russian Empire have much larger critical masses than that.

Except for the self-aggrandizement of the tsars, there was no logical reason for assembling an ethnic polyglot that covered 1/6 of the world's land mass and that has perpetually required force to keep it from flying apart.

This strikes me rather like a couple attempting to save a really bad marriage by having a child.  Usually everyone involved suffers.

It's time people in the former Russian Empire quit looking to a tsar to fix their problems.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Belochka on February 09, 2006, 07:23:40 PM
Quote
... It's time people in the former Russian Empire quit looking to a tsar to fix their problems.


Few Russians inside have concerns about the concept of the monarchy, except in their history books.

Much of the emphasis about this issue is placed by pretenders living outside of Russia's borders.  

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 09, 2006, 08:43:26 PM
Fair point.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 10, 2006, 02:18:04 AM
I have to agree with your all, it is a very complex question but something has to be done in order to make Russia a happy and great country it deserves. Russia has all what needs to make her an affluent state, but until now none of Russia’s vast reserves of resources has been for the benefit of ordinary people. Oh some are very rich indeed but I don’t think they have any interest in the Russian people at all. Robert was right in his view about a role for the Romanovs, involvement in charity, but to day the Romanovs do not have any funding to pay for the charities. All the Romanov possessions where stolen, It was a great mistake by the Romanov family to give up all demand on getting their possessions back, noble to do so, but it don’t help anyone except the richest. Without any doubt the international court in Haag would have been in favor of giving the Romanov possessions back or a giant compensation, and for that amount the Romanov would really be able to help the people.    
Christian
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 10, 2006, 03:01:27 AM
No of cause any Russians inside have concerns about the concept of the monarchy, they have a lot other things to do, I don’t think the political rulers are interesting in concept of monarchy either. Maybe the Romanovs should make a political monarchy party, former Bulgarian king Simeon did so and was Bulgaria’s president until last election. With a Romanov as Czar or president Russia would certain be very welcomed  to Europe and join the EU. Russia is a very important part of Europe and belongs to that part of the world. Russia has playing a major factor in Europe’s freedom and stability.
Christian          
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 10, 2006, 06:06:04 AM
Quote
All the Romanov possessions where stolen, It was a great mistake by the Romanov family to give up all demand on getting their possessions back, noble to do so, but it don’t help anyone except the richest.


Noble?  How about realistic?

And just what were the "Romanov possessions"?  Palaces built with conscripted state labor?  Things bought with funds from the civil list, which was funded from state coffers?  Lands farmed by indentured peasant labor?

And why wouldn't the Romanovs want to help only the richest?  That's what they did for 300 years on the throne.

Look, as royal dynasties go, the Romanovs are among my favorites.  And I sometimes long to travel back in time to sample real life under the tsars (at least if I could do so as a wealthy nobleman).  But the last thing I would want would be to have any of that crowd pop up on the scene today.  Their time has passed . . . and for very good reason.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 10, 2006, 01:01:01 PM
Simeon in Bulgaria did not form a monarchist party. He formed a political party committed to the republic. He renounced any claims to to his former position as king.
As for funds for "good causes" in Russia, MV does not need any of her own to donate, she does make awareness and by her prescense encourage others to participate, I believe.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 10, 2006, 10:21:22 PM
You are both right, I know Imperial Russia supported the rich (the noble families), I too did not wanted to be poor labor in Russia at that time, but I did not want to be poor labor in any country at that time, remember it is 100 years ago, at that time it was very hard in all countries for ordinary people. Imperial Russia was some years behind the great other European countries in changing from agricultural to industrial development, but it was only a matter of relative short time before it would had happened.
Romanovs helping only the richest, well I believe most governments and political parties are doing exactly the same even today, it will never change and certainly the successors of the Czars did not changed that.
In you view about palaces built with conscripted state labor and lands farmed by indentured peasant labor, well in that case no one posses anything because all great palaces and estates build centuries ago were all build by state labor and the big estate acreages by peasant labor.
The Romanovs was actually one of the richest, if not the richest family in the world. It is the right of the majority to choose the form of government they want to, even to acquire compulsorily of The Czar’s possessions, but it requires a big majority in the Duma and then a big majority by the people and then the court will decide the compensation according to the estimates of the value. Something similarly happen to King Constantine of Greek, by the European Court of Justice.
Robert, I do not know very much about MV and her work for Russia, sorry that’s my fault. In Denmark we consider Nicholas and Dimitri to be possible successors. Last year we had a Romanov evening on Danish TV, including a portrait of Dimitri Romanov who lives in Denmark, a very sympathetic and not self-aggrandizement at all, he say that the Romanovs were happy being rehabilitate and has officially being apologized for what happen to the family by the president of Russia and continued that The Romanov apologized for the wrong doing under the Czars and the family’s wish to help the Russian people. Dimitri is often in Russia as chairman for Romanov Fund for Russia to relief and assistance for underprivileged children in the Russian Federation and the Commonwealth of Independent States, a fund helping Russian kids, last time I think it was hearing aid for the children with hearing disabilities, The governor of Saint Petersburg wants the noble families particularly the Romanovs to come back and help to build a new Russia and was actually offering to give back the big estate of Dimitri’s family.
Christian
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 10, 2006, 11:33:16 PM
I heard about a government offer to return property to the present day Romanovs from Nikita Nikitavich Romanov about ten years ago. He told me that they offered a small palace in Tsarsko Selo to the family if they restored it themselves. The cost to restore the building then was well over 1 million dollars. The family did not feel that property rights were secure in present day Russia, so they passed on this offer.

David
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 11, 2006, 03:36:58 PM
Are any of the current Romanovs interested in residing in Russia?  Any idea which palace they were offered?

Thanks.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 11, 2006, 04:49:33 PM
I believe that Nikita said the Empress' cottage. I have very little knowledge of the Tsarsko Selo palaces so I do not know if there is only one such building or a number of them that could be described this way.

David
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Tsarfan on February 13, 2006, 12:21:27 PM
I don't know much about the lesser buildings at Tsarskoe Selo, either.

Could he have meant the Cottage Palace (also called The Alexandra Cottage, after Nicholas I's wife) at Peterhof -- although I think that building has been fully restored?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: Christian_II on February 28, 2006, 07:35:10 AM
The palace's name is Znamenka. The palace Prince Dimitri was offered.
Christian
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy agai
Post by: imperial angel on March 03, 2006, 11:15:35 AM
Anyway, I don't think Russia is likely to become a monarchy at all soon, because there is just so much more to resolve, and the memories of so many events run too deep. Monarchy is not what Russia needs right now, at least. It is best to realize, and most people do, that Imperial Russia was a Russia of the past, and today's Russia is a far cry from then. So monarchy may never come back, and it if it does, it should choose a wisetime, which obviously isn't now.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on July 28, 2006, 07:46:01 AM
How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again? Very likely, given that Russia - officially or unofficially - has always been a monarchy, be that either Christian or Atheist, with the power concentrated largely in the hands of a single man, be that either Tsar or president of the Russian Communist Party.

A visionary Russian writer affirms that a restoration is quite likely.

Vladimir Voinovich: "Russia has been unable to cope with freedom"
By Ilya Milstein

The country will not go back to the Soviet system. But it could return to a more distant past, even to monarchy, says the author of "The Soldier Ivan Chonkin" and "Moscow-2042".

In an article published by the German magazine Der Spiegel recently, Vladimir Voinovich supposed that Russia would become a monarchy again. The author is not the first to say this. A monarchy is against the constitution, however, his words should be heeded. The point is that so far his forecasts have very often come true.

For example, at the very low point of stagnation he predicted the speedy and inevitable collapse of the Soviet Empire. And some time later, contemplating the future, he discerned the figure of a new leader in it. He would be a relatively young man who had taken an active part in the "August revolution" of 1991, spoke good German, had served in the KGB and had been its agent in Germany. All this was said by the writer back in 1985.

In short, there is every reason to talk with Vladimir Voinovich about the future of Russia, especially on the eve of the parliamentary elections, let's hope not the last ones. (...) (New Times (http://www.newtimes.ru/eng/detail.asp?art_id=982))
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 05, 2006, 07:00:13 PM
There are a number of prophecies announcing the restoration of Monarchy in Russia, including, some believe, the Book of Revelation (the Apocalypse).

Starets Lavrentii (+1950):

Schema-Archimandrite Feofan related that Batiushka Lavrentii would joyfully say, with a smile: “The Russian people will repent of deadly sins: that they allowed ... [antichristian] impiety to hold sway in Russia; that they did not defend God’s Anointed Tsar, the Orthodox churches and monasteries, and all that is holy and sacred in Russia. They despised piety and came to love demonic impiety. But there will be a spiritual upheaval! And Russia, together with all the Slavic nations and lands, will constitute a mighty Tsardom. She will be governed by an Orthodox Tsar, by God’s Anointed One. Because of him, all schisms and heresies will vanish away in Russia. There will be no persecution of the Orthodox Church. The Lord will have mercy on Holy Russia because the dreadful time preceding that of antichrist has already taken place in her. Even antichrist himself will fear the Russian Orthodox Tsar - Samoderzhets [Tsar - Autocrat]. But all the other nations, save only Russia and the Slavic lands, will be ruled by antichrist and will undergo all the horrors and torments written of in Holy Scripture. In Russia, however, there will be rejoicing and a blossoming of faith -- but only for a short while, for the Dread Judge will come to try both the living and the dead.”

Link: http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/Starets%20Lavrentii.htm

Regarding the return of a tsar, Archbishop Theophan of Poltava wrote in 1930, "The coming of Antichrist draws nigh and is very near. The time separating us from him should be counted a matter of years and at most a matter of some decades. But before the coming of Antichrist Russia must yet be restored-to be sure, for a short time. And in Russia there must be a Tsar forechosen by the Lord Himself. He will be a man of burning faith, great mind and iron will. This much has been revealed about him." 21

When so many of the predictions of righteous Russian sufferers have come to pass, all their words must take on added importance. A theme repeated by many is that the restoration of Russia will be temporary. It will be a "flowering before the end," a brief return to true Christian beliefs and practices. And it will presage a wave of worldwide repentance prior to the appearance of Antichrist.

Heavenly Silence

Father Seraphim Rose linked Revelation's "heavenly silence" to Russia's period of quiet before the final storm: "In the book which most thoroughly describes the events to occur at the end of the world, the Apocalypse of St. John the Theologian, at the opening of the seventh seal, which precedes the final plague to come upon mankind, it is said that there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour (Apoc. 8:1). Some have interpreted this to mean a short period of peace before the final events of world history-namely…when the preaching of world-wide repentance will begin with Russia." 22

This repentance is a sign that evil, regardless of its apparent power, is not stronger than good. Satan can and will be defeated, but only by those who are willing to suffer for Christ. Those who endure crucifixion for the Lord's sake will certainly be resurrected. "It is a law of the spiritual life that where there is Golgotha - if it is genuine suffering for Christ-there will be resurrection," Father Seraphim Rose assures us. "This resurrection first of all occurs in human hearts, and we do not need to be too concerned what outward form it might take by God's will. All signs point to the fact that we are living at the end of the world, and any outward restoration of Holy Orthodox Russia will be short-lived." 23

The world at large gloats over communism's apparently untimely end and rewards itself with complacency. It has no idea that the fractured societies left in communism's wake are but decoys, left to divert suspicion from the true arena of conflict. The revolution is not over, nor have we in the West "won," for the battle is ultimately spiritual in nature.

Link: http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/rus-miracle.html

Other prophecies concerning Orthodoxy and Russia: http://www.geocities.com/kitezhgrad/prophets/index.html

God bless!
Bourbon Fan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2006, 07:27:45 PM
Tell all that to Russians- IN RUSSIA and they would laugh at you.
Although it may be likely that the current constitution may be amended/altered, it will not be in favour of a monarchy.
 The only ones who express an interest in such an anachronistic establishment seems to those outside of the country with no knowledge of the reality of actually living there.
 My opinion- watch Putin.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 05, 2006, 08:29:05 PM
You speak in the name of the Russians, you claim to know what they want, yet you are not one of them, nor do you live in Russia. You bring no proofs, no quotes to support your allegations. Your post is, therefore, just pure personal opinion, full of hatred for an "anachronistic" institution and, implicitly, for its legitimizing source - Orthodox Christianity. Such biased, full of hatred views that are not supported by any factual sources do not belong on this forum.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2006, 08:56:14 PM
I have never said these are anything other than my opinions garnered from personal experience and familiarirty with  Russians who DO live there. I have been to Russia several times and do know, indeed have become very good friends with REAL Russians, not romantic monarchists. Ask anyone of us who have experienced  Russia and you will find the same opinion- monarchy is a fantasy.
 Btw, I have NEVER expressed hatred towards anyone. I suggest you temper your own language.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 05, 2006, 09:42:21 PM
Suggestion taken. At my turn, I suggest you show more respect for the expert opinions of people far more knowledgeable in Russian matters than you are, such as Vladimir Voinovich from whom I quoted, and watch your language, too. You only met a few Russians who are not representative for all of Russia.

Let us now consider some further prophecies representative for Russia's main cultural heritage - Orthodoxy -, all of which announce the restoration of Monarchy:

1. Hieromonk Anthony of St. Sabbas’ Monastery, based on Anonymous Greek Prophecies (8th or 9th century): “The last days have not yet arrived, and it is completely wrong to consider that we are on the threshold of the coming of the antichrist, because one last flourishing of Orthodoxy is still to come, this time in the whole world, headed by Russia. This will take place after a terrible war in which either one half or two thirds of humanity will perish, and which will be stopped by a voice from heaven: ‘And the Gospel will be preached throughout the world’.  “1) For until that time there will have been preached, not the Gospel of Christ, but the Gospel distorted by heretics.   “2) There will be a period of universal prosperity - but not for long. “3) In Russia during this period there will an Orthodox tsar, whom the Lord will reveal to the Russian people. “And after this the world will again be corrupted and will no longer be capable of correction. Then the Lord will allow the enthronement of the Antichrist.” [191]

2. Another Anonymous Prophecy from St. Sabbas’ Monastery (8th or 9th century): "At various times this great people [the Russians] will fall into sin and for this will be chastised through considerable trials. In about a thousand years [i.e. in the 1900s] this people, chosen by God, will falter in its Faith and its standing for the Truth of Christ. It will become proud of its earthly might and glory, will cease to seek the Kingdom and will want paradise not in Heaven but on this sinful earth. "However not all this people will tread this broad and pernicious path, though a substantial majority will, especially its governing class. On account of this great fall, a terrible fiery trial will be sent from on high to this people which will despise the ways of God. Rivers of blood shall flow across their land, brother shall slay brother, more than once famine shall visit the land and gather its dread harvest, nearly all the churches and other holy places shall be destroyed or suffer sacrilege, many shall perish.  "A part of this people, rejecting iniquity and untruth, will pass over the borders of their homeland and will be dispersed like unto the people of the Jews all over the world. Nevertheless the Lord will not show His wrath on them to the uttermost. The blood of thousands of martyrs will cry to the heavens for mercy. A spirit of sobriety will grow among this chosen people and they will return to God. At last this period of cleansing trial, appointed by the Righteous Judge, will come to an end, and once more Holy Orthodoxy will shine forth and those northern lands will be resplendent with the brightness of a faith reborn. "This wonderful light of Christ will shine forth from there and enlighten all the peoples of the earth. This will be helped by that part of the people providentially sent ahead into the diaspora, who will create centres of Orthodoxy - churches of God all over the world. Christianity will then be revealed in all its heavenly beauty and fullness. Most of the peoples of the world will become Christian. And for a time a period of peace, prosperity and Christian living will come to the whole world... "And then? Then, when the fullness of time has come, a great decline in faith will begin and everything foretold in the Holy Scriptures will occur. Antichrist will appear and the world will end."[192]

3. Monk Abel the Prophet (+1831). In a conversation with Tsar Paul I (+1801), after prophesying the destinies of all the Tsars from Paul I to Nicholas II: “What is impossible for man is possible for God. God delays with His help, but it is said that he will give it soon and will raise the horn of Russian salvation. And there will arise a great prince from your race in exile, who stands for the sons of his people. He will be a chosen one of God, and on his head will be blessing. He will be the only one comprehensible to all, the very heart of Russia will sense him. His appearance will be sovereign and radiant, and nobody will say: ‘The Tsar is here or there’, but all will say: ‘That’s him’. The will of the people will submit to the mercy of God, and he himself will confirm his calling… His name has occurred three times in Russian history. Two of the same name have already been on the throne, but not on the Tsar’s throne. But he will sit on the Tsar’s throne as the third. In him will be the salvation and happiness of the Russian realm.” (Source (http://romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20BOOK%20OF%20THE%20END%207.5X9.25.htm))   
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2006, 11:56:24 PM
Oh brother, you are really  delving into the incense and candlewax.
 What a batch of nonsense. Yes- I do know people in Russia who would laugh at your presumptions. And, I am quite familiar with Orthodox teachings and tradiitions. I have seen  this sort of postings in the past, it tends to be mis-leading and ill-informed.  I would suggest experience is the better teacher in cases such as yours. You obviously have none.
 Rather than get into a cat fight, I would recommend anyone interested to  look to the postings of those of us who have  been to Russia, not the delerious dreamers who wish it to be somthing that never was.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 06, 2006, 09:04:23 AM
"Oh brother, you are really  delving into the incense and candlewax. What a batch of nonsense. (...) delerious dreamers who wish it to be somthing that never was."

Such utter disrespect for the faith of hundreds of millions and for their saints and prophets is offensive to the Orthodox Christians, whose spirituality you clearly do not understand nor respect, despite your travel to Russia, does not belong on this forum. Once again, please, watch your language.

Not only realists, such as the successful writer and astute political observer Vladimir Voinovich, but also idealists, such as many Orthodox Saints, see the restoration of Monarchy as inevitable. Russia has always been, officially or unofficially, a Monarchy, be that either Christian or Atheist.

Here is another prophecy by the greatest Russian Saint, Seraphim of Sarov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim_of_Sarov), which announces the "glory" which Russia will once again enjoy, as well as the restoration of the French and Austrian Monarchies, the former with its new capital at Rheims, the latter under the rule of the Habsburgs and thanks to the help of Russia:

4. St. Seraphim of Sarov (+1833): “There will one day be a Tsar who will glorify me [Nicholas II glorified St. Seraphim in 1903], after which there will be a great disturbance in Russia, much blood will flow because they will rise up against this Tsar and autocracy, but God will magnify the Tsar”.
"More than half a century will pass. Then evildoers will raise their heads high. This will happen without fail: the Lord, seeing the impenitent evil of their hearts, will allow their enterprises for a short time. But their sickness will rebound upon their own heads, and the unrighteousness of their destructive plots will fall upon them. The Russian land will become red with rivers of blood...
“Before the birth of the Antichrist there will be a great, protracted war and a terrible revolution in Russia passing all bounds of human imagination, for the bloodletting will be most terrible: the rebellions of Ryazan, Pugachev and the French revolution will be nothing in comparison with what will take place in Russia. Many people who are faithful to the fatherland will perish, church property and the monasteries will be robbed; the Lord's churches will be desecrated; good people will be robbed of their riches and killed, rivers of Russian blood will flow... But the Lord will have mercy on Russia and will bring her along the path of great sufferings to glory."
“Constantinople and Jerusalem will be inhabited by the combined powers of Russia and the others. At the division of Turkey almost all will go to Russia, and Russia with the united forces of many other States will take Vienna, and about 7 million native Viennese will remain under the house of the Hapsburgs, and there the territory of the Austrian empire will be constructed. To France for her love for the Mother of God, the holy Madonna, will be given up to 17 million Frenchmen with its capital in the city of Rheims, while Paris will be completely destroyed… When the Russian Empire will receive 170 million into its dominion, we must expect the appearance of the Antichrist. 1) The Antichrist will be born in Russia between Petersburg and Moscow, in that great town which will be formed after the union of all the Slavic tribes with Russia. It will be the second capital of the Russian Kingdom and will be called ‘Moscow-Petrograd’, or ‘the City of the End’, which name will be given to it by the Lord God, the Holy Spirit, Who foresees everything from afar. 2) Before the birth of the Antichrist an Eighth Ecumenical Council must be convened of all the Churches under the One Head, Christ and under the one Protecting Veil of the Mother of God [according to St. Nilus the myrrh-gusher: “a last and eighth Ecumenical Council to deal with the disputes of heretics and separate the wheat from the chaff]. Its aim will be to unite and reunite all the holy Churches of Christ against the growing antichristian tendency under a single Head, Christ the Life-Giver, and under a single Protecting Veil of His Most Pure Mother, and to deliver to a final curse against the whole of Masonry and all the parties similar to it (under whatever names they may appear), the leaders of whom have one common aim: under the pretext of complete egalitarian earthly prosperity, and with the aid of people who have been made fanatical by them, to create anarchy in all states and to destroy Christianity throughout the world, and, finally, by the power of gold concentrated in their hands, to subdue the whole world to antichristianity in the person of a single autocratic, God-fighting tsar - one king over the whole world." (Source (http://romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20BOOK%20OF%20THE%20END%207.5X9.25.htm))
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: WhiteEagle on August 09, 2006, 08:20:26 PM
BorbonFan,

I have read prophecies about a great future Ecumenical Council that will bring all Christians into the unity of the Church.  However, how does this relate to the 15-year occupation of Rome by the Russians?  This 15-year period is supposed to be for the purose of the Roman Church shedding its heresies and returning to Holy Orthodoxy (along with the Protestants, I assume).  If Orthodox Christianity triumphs between 2019 and 2033, wouldn't that render this Ecumenical Council, superfluous?  Please explain how all this works together.  Thanks. 

God bless.

Adam
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 09, 2006, 10:20:15 PM
Hello, Adam,

According to St. Methodius, during the 15 year period of conquest of the "city of seven hills" (Rome) by the "blonde nation" (Russia), "the dormant snake will incur a spiritual death." It doesn't say anything about the spreading of Orthodoxy westwards. Catholicism is clearly the "dormant snake," which has been poisoning Christianity with its heresies making it suffocate slowly, in convulsions (Protestantism), as opposed to the active snake of Islam, which seeks an active destruction and conversion of Christendom -- see, for instance, the churches and monasteries of Kosovo (http://www.interfax-religion.com/kosovo/) destroyed by the Muslim Albanians since 1999. Thus, the Catholic Church will die spiritually. And this is easy to see how: priests will no longer graduate from seminaries in sufficient numbers, believers - most of them deprived of priests and Eucharist in their parishes - will stop going to Catholic churches and attend instead Orthodox or protestant ones, while the cathedrals of Rome itself as well as of the Catholic West will have largely been destroyed by the Muslims invaders. This "spiritual death" will force the Catholic hierarchs to pay close attention to the wondrous signs of God manifest in the battle for Byzantium and in the enthronement of His chosen Emperor, and thus admit to their mistakes and return to the unaltered Orthodox faith of the Church's first millenium. Thus, the return of Catholicism to Orthodoxy will take place after the battle of Byzantium, after 2033. Nothing in St. Methodius' prophecy suggests a return before the liberation of Byzantium.

God bless!
Borbon Fan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: WhiteEagle on August 10, 2006, 04:56:37 PM
BorbonFan,

Thanks for your response.  Catholicism is, indeed, already on its way to a spiritual death.  The liberalism left in the wake of Vatican II is reducing the once prominent Catholic Church to an utter disgrace. Without firm leadership, this will only accelerate in the coming years.  I can see how Catholicism will die a spiritual death by 2033.

However, I'm having a hard time comprehending this 15-year interim period.  Will Felipe VI convert to Orthodoxy during this time?  How will the Russians occupy Rome - will they actually stay there to watch the Vatican?  Will Christian civilization be rebuilt in Europe any during this time, or will this simply be a time of watching Catholicism die and brandishing the swords for the next conflict?  I don't mean to be cute, but these 15 years seem very odd and are hard to fit into any of the prophecies I've read.  I hope you can clarify things.   

God bless.

Adam                 
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 10, 2006, 09:35:15 PM
BorbonFan,

Thanks for your response.  Catholicism is, indeed, already on its way to a spiritual death.  The liberalism left in the wake of Vatican II is reducing the once prominent Catholic Church to an utter disgrace. Without firm leadership, this will only accelerate in the coming years.  I can see how Catholicism will die a spiritual death by 2033.

However, I'm having a hard time comprehending this 15-year interim period.  Will Felipe VI convert to Orthodoxy during this time?  How will the Russians occupy Rome - will they actually stay there to watch the Vatican?  Will Christian civilization be rebuilt in Europe any during this time, or will this simply be a time of watching Catholicism die and brandishing the swords for the next conflict?  I don't mean to be cute, but these 15 years seem very odd and are hard to fit into any of the prophecies I've read.  I hope you can clarify things.   

God bless.

Adam                 

I completely agree with you: Vatican II was a suicidal move on the part of the Church. But its troubles had started much earlier, as early as with Pope Leo the Great, who had put himself at the head of a Papal Army against the barbarians of Attila who were threatening Rome. The Church was never called to rule temporaly, but rather only spiritually, as Christ's kingdom is not of this world. The bloody and many times dirty work of politics was to be the job of the Caesar, not of the Church, as Christ clearly pointed out: "Render to the Caesar that which belongs to Caesar and to God that which belongs to God." To maintain their earthly rule, the Popes were forced to agree to a number of deadly alterations to the Dogma and the Canon, beginning with the worst - Filioque - devised to win back (in lack of a mighty army) the Spaniards deceived by Arianism, going through the forced celibate of the clergy, implemented only since Lateran II in the XII century in order to stop the hemorrhaging of the Church's property onto the married clergy's offspring, and ending with the horrible butchery of the ancient Latin Mass enforced by Vatican II. All these self-inflicted wounds have been bleeding the Catholic Church to a slow, painful, and certain death. It is only a matter of when, not if this death will happen.

As to the 15 year interval of Russian rule in Rome, I confess that I do not know why it will take so long for the Catholic Church to return to Orthodoxy. All I can do is make suppositions. Could it be because during this long time interval, the liberation wars against the Muslims will be continuing throughout Europe, making it logistically hard for the Church clergy to convene into a large ecumenical council and agree to union? Could it be perhaps because of the stubbornness and pride of its cardinals? Because of the opposition of the liberals within? Because of the opposition of the strong surviving Catholic communities outside Europe (Africa, S America) who would perceive union as a betrayal of their faith? I do not have an answer. All I know from St. Methodius' prophecy is that the return to Orthodoxy is not mentioned before the liberation of Byzantium.

Felipe's possible conversion to Orthodoxy is much easier to foretell than the previous issue. Prince Felipe's mother has been raised a devout Orthodox as Princess of Greece. In terms of morals, Felipe ressembles her rather than his liberal father, known to have had a number of mistresses. He is known to have voiced strongly conservative Catholic opinions about marriage, against adultery during his master studies at Georgetown University. He is also very close to his Greek royal cousins, with whom he spends his summer vacations, which I am sure can only help get Felipe closer to their Orthodox faith. All these suggest to me that Felipe's conversion to Orthodoxy is something very, very possible.

God bless!
Borbon Fan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: WhiteEagle on August 10, 2006, 10:33:39 PM
BorbonFan,

Thanks for your response.  I, too, can see Felipe's conversion happening.  As you pointed out, he has many Orthodox influences around him.  However, I don't see the Moslem wars continuing during the 15-year interim period.  The Catholic prophecies are unanimous in affirming that the Great Monarch (Felipe VI) will vanish all enemies during his wars.  These victories are mentioned as happening in a 3-4 year (at most, 7 year) period.  This also leads to problems in fitting the 15-year stalemate into a prophectic timeline, since none of the prophecies allude to Felipe VI finishing the job of conquest after a break of a decade or more, nor a length of time between the re-conquest of Europe and the victory of the Apostolic Church.  Everything happens (including the war being taken to the Middle East and the conquest of Byzantium) in a clear succession according to these prophecies. 

I have read your quotation of Emperor Leo VI - the Wise and don't find it convincing.  He did say ""In six centuries minus about twenty years you will become powerful again."  He said, "about" twenty years, I don't find it convincing to say that he predicted 2033 as opposed to say, 2020 or so.  Also, your interpretation of Agathanghelos seems highly subjective.  If one tries a number of combinations, one will eventually hit upon a desired combination.  I don't think I'm convinced on your interpretation of these two prophecies.  However, I'd like to read the entire prophecy of St. Methodius (if this isn't too much trouble), for comparison.  Thanks.

God bless.

Adam   

P.S. You can send me the prophecy via a private message, if that would be more appropriate.   

   

       
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 11, 2006, 12:21:52 AM
Hello, Adam,

I am not sure about the accuracy of Leo VI's prophecy. I have not found it in an original text nor book, but only quoted by somebody else on the internet. Plus, he is not a saint of the Orthodox Church, just as Nostradamus isn't one either in the Catholic Church. Therefore, their prophecies carry much less weight than those of recognized saints or monks.

Monk Agathanghelos is referenced in the book from which I got St. Methodius' prophecy. However, his prophecies aren't fully quoted in there. I found his prophecies only as quoted by somebody else over the internet. Same goes for the interpretation of his "golden tenth" -- it is not mine, but that same somebody else's.

Therefore I would not lend too much credence to the two prophecies - that of Leo VI and Agathanghelos - until I see them in an authorized Church book. The internet can have many inaccurate versions. Until then, I still think 2033-2037 is a rough approximation for the liberation of Byzantium, according to these two prophecies. 2033 if we go with Leo's 580 year prediciton as being exact, 2037 if we go with Leo's estimation of "six centuries minus about twenty years." 2037 can be confirmed by Agathanghelos, if we add 120 ("golden tenth") to 1917 rather than 1914, as 1917 - the year of the atheist Russian bolshevik revolution - is the beginning of the sufferings for Russia's and E Europe's Orthodoxy under communism.

I will try to translate St. Methodius' prophecy, but as it is rather long, it may take me a few days. It is worth noting that the succession of events in it is the same as in your prophecies: Muslim invasion of Europe, chasing out of the invaders, all the way to Middle East (including a landing in a Muslim-ocupied Israel),  followed by the liberation of Byzantium.

If you don't mind, what are the Catholic prophecies to which you lend credence, which speak of the Great Monarch, of the fate of Byzantium and Europe, or of the reunification of the Church?

God bless!
Borbon Fan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Yoyo on August 11, 2006, 03:44:14 PM
P.S. You can send me the prophecy via a private message, if that would be more appropriate.   

       

Please do as your religious prophecies belong more on a religious site than on a history site discussing the return of the monarchy in Russia. Remember that not (if not most) people on this board are not Orthodox and some (catholics) might not be too thrilled about the things you are writing about their religion.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: WhiteEagle on August 12, 2006, 03:51:15 PM
BorbonFan,

Thanks for asking me for some of the Catholic prophecies.  Here is a sampling of them:

War in Europe:

"A great multitude of people will lose their lives in those calamitous times, but the wicked will not prevail.  They will indeed attempt to destroy the whole Church, but not enough time will be allowed them, because the frightful crisis will be of short duration . .  . During this revolution, which will very likely be general and not confined to France, Paris will be destroyed so completely that twenty years afterwards fathers walking over its ruins with their children will be asked by them what kind of place that was; to whom they will answer: 'My child, this was a great city which God destroyed on account of her crimes.'" - Fr. Nectou.

"When everyone thinks that peace is assured, when everyone leasts expects it, the great happenings will begin.  Revolution will break out in Italy almost at the same time as in France.  For some time the Church will be without a Pope.  England, too, will have much to suffer" - Ecstatic of Tours.

"France shall fall into a frightful anarchy.  The French shall have a desperate civil war in the course of which old men themselves will take up arms" - Blessed Anna Maria Taigi.

"God will permit a great evil against His Church:  Heretics and tyrants will come suddenly and unexpectedly; they will break into the Church while bishops, prelates, and priests are asleep.  They will enter Italy and lay Rome waste; they will burn down the churches and destroy everything" - Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser.

"This most unhappy war will end, when an emperor of Spanish origin will be elected who will in a wonderful manner be victorious through the sign of the Cross . . . He will restore the Church in Santa Sophia (in Constantinople), and all the earth shall enjoy peace and prosperity; and new cities will be erected in many places" - St. Bridget of Sweden.

"A knight shall come from the West.  He shall capture Milan, Lombardy, and the three Crowns.  He shall then sail to Cyprus and Famagoste and land at Jaffa, and reach Christ's grave where he will fight.  Wars and wonders shall befall till the people believe in Christ toward the end of the world" - St. Thomas a'Becket.

"The Powerful Monarch, who will be sent by God, will uproot every Republic.  He will submit everything to his authority, and he will show great zeal for the true Church of Christ.  The empire of the Mohammedans will be broken up, and this Monarch will reign in the East as well as in the West" - Ven. Bartholomew Holzhauser.

"Peace will return to the world when the White Flower again takes possession of the throne of France.  During this period of peace, people will be forbidden to carry weapons, and iron will be used only for making agricultural implements and tools.  Also during this period, the land will be very productive, and many Jews, heathens, and heretics will join the Church" - St. Hildegard.

"One of your posterity shall achieve greater deeds and work great wonders than your lordship.  That man will be a great sinner in his youth, but like St. Paul he shall be drawn and converted to God" - St. Francis of Paula to Simeon de Limena, Count of Montalto.

The coming Eighth Ecumenical Council:

"I saw in God's essence a numerous assembly of ministers of the Church, who like an army in battle array, and like a firm and unflinching column, shall sustain the rights of the church and of her Head, and shall restore its ancient discipline" - Sr. Jeanne le Royer (Sister of the Nativity).

"The Council will define the true sense of Holy Scripture, and this be believed and accepted by everyone" - Ven. Holzhauser.

These prophecies don't predict the coming of the Moselms, by name.  However, it is easy to reason that the "heretics", "tyrants", "enemies of Christ", who will burn churches and kill priests and religious are fanatical Moslems.  Nobody else, including militant secularists, would do that.  As I stated earlier, these prophecies are only a sampling of Catholic prophecy.  Other themes unmentioned are the arrival of a "Great Pope" who will assist the Great Monarch in the religious realm, the invasion and defeat of a Russian army in Western Europe, the universal scope of civil war and God-given chastisement, and the three days of darkness at the end of the Chastisement.  Excluding the "Great Pope" figure, I'd say the Catholic and Orthodox prophecies fit quite well together.   

God bless!

Adam     




 
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: BorbonFan on August 12, 2006, 09:09:08 PM
"A great multitude of people will lose their lives in those calamitous times, but the wicked will not prevail.  They will indeed attempt to destroy the whole Church, but not enough time will be allowed them, because the frightful crisis will be of short duration . .  . During this revolution, which will very likely be general and not confined to France, Paris will be destroyed so completely that twenty years afterwards fathers walking over its ruins with their children will be asked by them what kind of place that was; to whom they will answer: 'My child, this was a great city which God destroyed on account of her crimes.'" - Fr. Nectou.

"This most unhappy war will end, when an emperor of Spanish origin will be elected who will in a wonderful manner be victorious through the sign of the Cross . . . He will restore the Church in Santa Sophia (in Constantinople), and all the earth shall enjoy peace and prosperity; and new cities will be erected in many places" - St. Bridget of Sweden.

Thank you very much, Adam. It is truly amazing to see that the Catholic prophecies concur so well with the Orthodox ones. In particular, that of St. Bridget of Sweden, announcing the King of Spain as liberator of Byzantium in a "wonderful manner" - through God's divine intervention - "through the sign of the Cross"! It surely must be the next King of Spain "Philippe VI", as St. Methodius and other Orthodox hermits and anonymous saints have seen in their divine visions!

Also, it is amazing to see St. Seraphim's prophecy concerning France and Paris confirmed by Fr. Nectou.  Who was this Father, Adam? Did he lead a saintly life? Is he canonized or at least beatified yet?

Thank you again and God bless!
Borbon Fan

PS: I am starting to translate St. Methodius' prophecy into English.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: WhiteEagle on August 12, 2006, 10:54:56 PM
BorbonFan,

You're welcome.  I am also impressed as to how the Orthodox and Catholic prophecies relate to each other. 

Fr. Nectou was a Jesuit who resided in southwestern France in the mid-18th century.  According to all who knew him, he lived a simple and holy life.  Several witnesses attest that he raised an infant from the dead.  He was especially gifted with the charism of prophecy.  He prophesied the coming of the French Revolution, the suppression of the Jesuit order by the Pope in 1773, and the coming Moslem conflict in Europe.  He died in 1777, btw.  He hasn't been officially recognized by the Catholic Church, as far as I know.

Thanks for starting on the translation of St. Methodius' prophecy.  I relish gaining this insight from Orthodox prophecy.  Thanks! 

God bless.

Adam 

         
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Bach on August 18, 2006, 10:20:14 AM
When did this forum become a prophecy board for religious zealotry?  I must have missed that memo.

This thread, from its title, is about whether Russia will again become a monarchy.

Speaking as someone who has had extensive dealings with Russia-based financiers, I can say that the Russians I know - not the religious abroad who appear to be as lost in dogma as the late Alix was - the chance of restoration is zero.  The Royal family, if considered at all, are mocked for their pretensions.  It's a source of amusement in many cases.   I'm not saying that their mean-spiritedness is appropriate, but these are those in positions of power.  Highly unlikely that they will cede that power to the tattered and watered down remnants of pretenders.

Facts.  Not fantasies.

Perhaps you should start a new thread that is appropriately titled, something like "Religous Prophecy in Support of Restoration."
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 18, 2006, 11:37:19 AM
I agree Bach. This thread has lost any relevancy to the topic.
 I have the same impression as you from my visits to Russia and meeting people the Russians who live there.  The Romanovs are nothing more than a tourist attraction [cash] and not taken seriously by most people.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on August 19, 2006, 11:13:39 PM
Highly unlikely that they will cede that power to the tattered and watered down remnants of pretenders.


Of the Russian ciitizens with whom I had an opportunity to ask this question recently in Moscow and St.P., not one entertained the idea of returning a system of government which was destroyed almost a century ago. Many things have changed including the political direction in which the country is now heading.

Official tiared ribbon cutters who will prefer to distinguish themselves inside the confines of vast palaces are not required by a nation that is still finding itself in the global and economic shpere today.

My impression is that it is just a few delusional individuals who live outside of Russia who are the only ones who shout the loudest as to how Russia may need to reform in their eyes. Whilst only a few may choose to listen and dream for what might be recreated again, the majority of Russian citizens, ignore such thoughts in silence and go on with their daily lives. They have far more relevant concerns!

And you know what, they are pleased with President Putin's democratic program of reforms!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TampaBay on August 20, 2006, 06:50:32 AM
And you know what, they are pleased with President Putin's democratic program of reforms!

My Russian aquaitances in Tampa say the same thing.  They also state on each occasion we discuss the matters,  "if Russians become unhappy with Putin they will vote him or throw him out of office too"! 

Just like the USA!!!  ;D ;D ;D

TampaBay
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: dmitri on August 11, 2007, 10:23:37 AM
The likelihood of a restoration is about as likely as finding a pig flying backwards. Don't hold your breath.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Seeker on December 11, 2007, 03:24:47 PM
Look at this link in consideration of opinions.......http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4047
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: dmitri on December 12, 2007, 03:20:37 PM
That's a lone voice in the wildnerness. I found no support for monarchy in Russia. It is part of their history. Nicholas II is not remembered with any great fondness as he allowed everything to collapse through incompetent rule.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on December 14, 2007, 12:10:09 AM
That's a lone voice in the wildnerness. I found no support for monarchy in Russia. It is part of their history.

Neither had I.

A monarchy was part of Russia's history but it will never re-emerge in its future.

Margarita
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 18, 2008, 07:34:47 PM
That's a lone voice in the wildnerness. I found no support for monarchy in Russia. It is part of their history.

Neither had I.

A monarchy was part of Russia's history but it will never re-emerge in its future.

Margarita

While I agree a restoration of the monarchy is very unlikely - in my experience, Never is an awfully big word. We cannot possibly imagine all circumstances which may transpire.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: imperialruss on January 19, 2008, 04:17:29 AM
 Here l agree , unless you are God nobody can be sure

Stepan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: dmitri on January 19, 2008, 11:32:18 AM
Ms. Davidson if you go to Russia and do some asking and research you will find that there is absolutely no interest in any form of restoration of monarchy of any kind. If this were to have happened there would be Tsar Vladimir of the House of Putin by now. Even he is not interested. It's not surprising though as he has already established what he wants. He will soon step down as President and hand over to his hand picked successor who has already agreed to appoint him Prime Minister. The Russian Tsarist monarchy is extremely dead and very much buried. It is the past. It's not surprising though as even with rose tinted glasses it was hardly a paradise for most of its inhabitants. The vast majority lived in absolute poverty without adequate education, housing, employment, food or health care. Is it no wonder it is relegated firmly to the past? This year it is 2008. It will not be too long until it is 2017. One wonders which monarchies in world history have been restored by popular vote after nearly 100 years of absence? Perhaps that could be the starting point of a new thread .. Monarchies restored 90 years after their abolition? God won't decide the issue of monarchy in Russia. The people are the only ones who will and they have no interest. After all God didn't save the Tsar as the old anthem stated. 
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: imperialruss on January 19, 2008, 03:46:48 PM

Dmitri,

 Why don't you register a political party and run for the Duma, if your so self assured, you comments are all ways about what the masses think in Russia , why dont you , in three years you could be president !, you must be truly in tune of every bodies Russian mind, don't start on facts or figure, polls are full of holes

Stepan
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: dmitri on January 19, 2008, 08:28:06 PM
That was most interesting your last comment. Certainly blind Freddie would have done a better job than Yeltsin as President. I wonder whether you know how many starved to death as a result of his disastrous policies? As for the monarchy in Russia how about giving some information in fact about mass demonstrations in favour of restoration. I wish you the best in trying to find such information. Maria certainly has no mass support in Russia. I wonder by the way when you were last there?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Multiverse on December 28, 2008, 12:23:04 AM
For many years I have believed The Russian Monarchy would be restored under The Romanov's because of a dream I had one night in early 1980.

In that dream I saw the fall of The Soviet Union and of Communism. Out of the ashes of The Soviet Union and Communism I saw the restroation of The Russian Monarchy and a Romanov Tsar seated on The Imperial Russian Throne. As the dream ended I heard a voice speaking Russian. Even though I don't know a word of Russian, I understood every word the voice was saying. It said, "Mark well these words, for before this century is out there shall again be a Romanov Tsar seated upon The Imperial Russian Throne."

I thought "this century" meant the 20th Century. But now I realize "before this century is out" meant before the end of the thrid century since The Romanov Dynasty came to The Russian Throne. That means either before or in connection with the quarto-centenial, the 400th annaversary in 2013.

Ever since I had that dream now almost 29 years ago, I have felt and said that one day The Russian Monarchy would be restored under The Romanov Dynasty. Whether it comes before or in 2013 or when it comes, I firmly believe there will be a restoration of The Russian Monarchy and of The Romanov Dynasty.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on January 08, 2009, 07:40:46 PM
Could their be A Valkryie Type coup....sorry  just saw the movie and belive its possible
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Multiverse on January 21, 2009, 05:25:51 PM
Please excuse me for continuing to talk about my belief about this, but I believe we are very close to the time when it will happen.

I don't know if a sitting US President ever met and had talks with a reigning Tsar of Russia. The only one I can think of might have been Theodore Roosevelt.

But during yesterday's inaugural ceremonies the thought went through my mind at one point, especially if he is re-elected to a second term in 2012, President Barack Obama could be the first sitting US President, at least in a very long time, to meet and have talks with a reigning Tsar of Russia.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on January 22, 2009, 03:51:41 AM
From friends of mine that were there only recently,inclusive of people within both the Princess Maria circle and of the rest of the family,Princess Maria is treated with the utmost care and her claim is regarded as a valid one.
However,the male Romanovs have a more stronger claim yet do not have heirs, and many are not evenRussian speakers and Orthodox, and have had too many divorces and marriages below there rank.
Ideally a male Romanov would exit who had heirs irrespective of any morganatic marriages, yet unfortunately there doesent.
I too believe in the restoration, as to whom and when I cannot say, but I know that history is cyclical and that one day a constituitional Monarch will be appointed.
He will have Romanov descent, but as to the "purity" and seniorityof his claim I cannot say.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TampaBay on March 30, 2009, 10:02:24 AM

However,the male Romanovs have a more stronger claim yet do not have heirs, and many are not evenRussian speakers and Orthodox, and have had too many divorces and marriages below there rank.


Does the Imperial Law say anything about divorce in regards to succession to the throne?

TampaBay
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 30, 2009, 04:08:58 PM

However,the male Romanovs have a more stronger claim yet do not have heirs, and many are not evenRussian speakers and Orthodox, and have had too many divorces and marriages below there rank.


Does the Imperial Law say anything about divorce in regards to succession to the throne?

TampaBay

No, it does not. Nor does the Orthodox Church.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: imperialruss on April 11, 2009, 07:03:19 AM


With out directly qouting HIH GD Maria the general theme its the   '' will of the people '' how ever this may also evolve from the Duma and Church maybe. l would agree its moslty westerners on this site argueing the issues with a full belly. A majority of Russians are worrying about the next meal, aids --- corruption and jobs and the future of the young.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 13, 2009, 04:59:33 PM


With out directly qouting HIH GD Maria the general theme its the   '' will of the people '' how ever this may also evolve from the Duma and Church maybe. l would agree its moslty westerners on this site argueing the issues with a full belly. A majority of Russians are worrying about the next meal, aids --- corruption and jobs and the future of the young.

And yet, I think that most of us full bellied Westerners would support Russia as a republic or as a monarchy. Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich's Manifesto was issued over 90 years ago but it still resonates with many who have an interest in the history of Russia. Monarchy, yes, but only if its something that has broad based support among the people of that country - and with the Church and elected officials.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on July 05, 2009, 08:01:13 PM
3 years ago the then President Putin told an audience that the restoration of the Monarchy was up to the Russian people, but that first, the people need to be educated as to what sort of Monarchy they should have,ie, Constituitinal, similar to the British system.
The Russians have a lot on their plate, but I do believe that soon the Grand Duchess will be given grace and favour apartments in either St.Petesburg and/or Moscow.
 
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: James_Davidov on July 06, 2009, 08:51:35 AM
Surely it would be far more likely that Putin was installed as the Tsar than any Romanov!!  Bizarrely it would probably be happily accepted by the hordes of his impassioned supporters, and possibly spun as a traditional title of ‘father of the nation’, god forbid!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 06, 2009, 09:45:26 AM
IofJ, I think GD Maria has  apartments in the Novodivechy complex, does she not?
 As for Putin, perhaps not as bizarre as one might think; I was reading  today that he is possibly descended from an ancient aristocratic family, older than the Romanovs and more Russian than them- the Putyatins. Quite interesting, I shall follow this report up for sure.
 As for a restoration- there is no throne to restore, and no mechanism to create a new one in the current Russian constitution.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 02, 2009, 01:28:55 AM
IofJ, I think GD Maria has apartments in the Novodivechy complex, does she not?
 As for Putin, perhaps not as bizarre as one might think; I was reading today that he is possibly descended from an ancient aristocratic family, older than the Romanovs and more Russian than them- the Putyatins. Quite interesting, I shall follow this report up for sure.
 As for a restoration- there is no throne to restore, and no mechanism to create a new one in the current Russian constitution.

Most constitutions have some mechanism for change, even structural changes, so I respectfully disagree on that point. No throne to restore? That's debatable. The Russian empire is no more, but there could still be a Tsar.

Now, mind you, I consider a monarchy to be an unlikely political change for Russia, but not because there's no way to achieve it with the constitution.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 02, 2009, 07:37:08 AM
Well, Lisa, have you read the Russian Constitution? Of particular interest are chapters 9 & 16. [article 137, I think it is] Russia is an inviolable democratic REPUBLIC! There is no provision for change in this.  So, a monarchy is not only unlikely, but also illegal. Of course, I suppose a dictator could scrap  it and put up another system, but that would take a lot of work and major support. That is decidedly lacking. Even Putin recognises this.
 And, as for a throne. a throne of what? Russia is a federation of republics, each would have to change to have the same "monarch".
  Also "tsar" is reduntant. Peter abolished the title in 1725.  It no longer valid, has not been since then.
 Even if all these objections were to be overcome, and the semantics  eliminated,  who would the next soveriegn be? The Romanovs came were ELECTED by consensus in 1613. Any  new monarch of any sort would have to be by the same entrance. In my opinion.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on November 04, 2009, 09:53:59 PM
Its up to the people of Russia, ultimately.

One might also comment that even if this were to happen....and there is so much to shift through in regards to whom, how, when, where and why....
that the English Royal family would be the best to decide whom, and in partnership with them to ensure stability, for the russian people and their children, and that of the future path of humanity.
God knows they have been through so much. Having said that its certainly taught them much too.

Anyone who has read the Gulag can understand just how strong Russians are.

"That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger". (and wiser) :)

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 05, 2009, 12:26:52 AM
Why would you think the British Royal Family would have any part of a restoration of a Russian monarchy? [there is no "English" royal Family, BTW]
 But, of course this sort of move would be entirely up to the Russians themselves. Outside influence simply would not be tolerated.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 05, 2009, 02:58:27 AM
The second any other Royal Families get involved publicly (which they will NOT) the whole debate will be muddled even more than what it is now.
This should and will be left to the Russian Governement,Church and people.
and
IofJ, I think GD Maria has  apartments in the Novodivechy complex, does she not?
 As for Putin, perhaps not as bizarre as one might think; I was reading  today that he is possibly descended from an ancient aristocratic family, older than the Romanovs and more Russian than them- the Putyatins. Quite interesting, I shall follow this report up for sure.
 As for a restoration- there is no throne to restore, and no mechanism to create a new one in the current Russian constitution.
No, I dont think she does Robert, or at least I havent heard of it, but I will enquire.
Ask for V.Putin beeing of aristocratic desent, so is my cat, and yours...,   :)
 but I dont think he would want to set himself up as Tsar, better to be a Tsar maker, rather than a Tsar!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on November 05, 2009, 03:50:18 AM
IofJ, I think GD Maria has  apartments in the Novodivechy complex, does she not?
 
No, I dont think she does Robert, or at least I havent heard of it,

I would be equally surprised if she had a residence in the Novodevichy convent.

Ask for V.Putin beeing of aristocratic desent .... but I dont think he would want to set himself up as Tsar, better to be a Tsar maker, rather than a Tsar!

Not to forget that the title Царь "Tsar" assumed a lesser designation, whereas the title Император "Emperor" was the correct title.

Nikolai II was the Emperor of All the Russias, and he was also Tsar of Georgia etc.

Margarita
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 05, 2009, 03:54:46 AM
Thank you,
Emperor first, Tsar second!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on November 05, 2009, 04:04:35 AM
... that the English Royal family would be the best to decide whom, and in partnership with them to ensure stability

No British monarch would ever entertain such a notion nor would any prospective Russian monarch seek foreign intervention about its State affairs.

The very concept of Sovereignty dictates one's exclusive right to rule within one's own territory.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on November 05, 2009, 04:07:44 AM
Thank you,
Emperor first, Tsar second!

Absolutely! ; )
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on November 06, 2009, 03:31:13 PM
Why would you think the British Royal Family would have any part of a restoration of a Russian monarchy? [there is no "English" royal Family, BTW]
 But, of course this sort of move would be entirely up to the Russians themselves. Outside influence simply would not be tolerated.

LOL, quite! Yes they are all related so "english", was incorrect...

So then, to whom can one attribute the restoration project of russia?. One might surmise quite a considerable dedicated group.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on November 06, 2009, 03:35:22 PM
... that the English Royal family would be the best to decide whom, and in partnership with them to ensure stability

No British monarch would ever entertain such a notion nor would any prospective Russian monarch seek foreign intervention about its State affairs.

The very concept of Sovereignty dictates one's exclusive right to rule within one's own territory.


not intervention. assistance when required, as they themselves recieved from our end at times, when requested.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: richard_1990 on November 07, 2009, 08:24:34 AM
Quote from: tutsi
So then, to whom can one attribute the restoration project of russia?. One might surmise quite a considerable dedicated group.
Quote
not intervention. assistance when required, as they themselves recieved from our end at times, when requested.
Only the Russian people can restore the monarchy. Whether or not the British royal family approve of who becomes the Emperor (if it were the Romanov's) if such an event occured is irrelevant. What do you mean by assistance?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Douglas on November 07, 2009, 07:57:25 PM
I would suggest that one could set up a monarchy in Russia as a corporation.  The corporation could elect a Tsar from the Board of Directors, sell shares, buy property, built palaces and charge  visitors to come gawk at them.

 It worked for Disney, so why not a new monarchy park in Russia or anywhere.  You'd be surprised what people will pay money to visit.

Rides on the Tsars train, eat a Tsarist Russian dinner at the restaurant, buy T-shirts at the shops, cruise on the Standart, pony rides for the kids,  a children's village on an island, the possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 07, 2009, 09:23:17 PM
Why not? The Windsors have done it....
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 08, 2009, 10:27:08 PM
I see the conversation is climbing to its usual dizzy levels of inteligence and competence!
 :)
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on November 09, 2009, 06:05:20 AM
Ha! True, and well said...(must be time to chew on a mintie)..ahem...

However.....more than anything else....in what way is this supposed personage going to truly be a Leader?

The best Leader is one who leads by example...
Who understands, truly understands what the people need in terms of health, wealth and happiness with a good solid spiritual foundation...and has experienced a full life and even possibly experienced just how it feels to live a life of poverty and, succeed in life, despite the overwhelming odds.

Who can be a Talleyrand with just a dash of Courland as well, might be a good thing too.

Next question, that possibly may require a thread of its own:

What is the people's vision of the Russia of the Future?
What do the people want?
What do the people need in terms of everyday happy existence?
How can all the people of Russia team together to each and every one make a difference for their country that they love so much?
What sort of life do they envision for them and their children of the future?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: richard_1990 on November 09, 2009, 07:50:38 AM
Tutsi, I think (?) the OP is talking about a constitutional monarchy. In which case, the Monarch would serve as a figurehead - the embodiment of the nation.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on November 10, 2009, 12:49:48 AM
May I have a mintie please?
Yes a constituitional Monarchy seems to be the ideal one!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 11, 2009, 12:37:04 AM
Tutsi, I think (?) the OP is talking about a constitutional monarchy. In which case, the Monarch would serve as a figurehead - the embodiment of the nation.

I know this description of constitutional monarchy makes for a neat and tidy conversation. However, there are actually many different types of constitutional monarchy, and not all of them reduce the monarch to a mere figurehead. Even though we regard HM the Queen of the UK as a "figurehead", in reality her powers are much greater than that.

To be correct, a constitutional monarch is one who derives her/his power to govern from a constitution. The sovereign may reign in a parliamentary system, a republican system, and heredity can be the means of selecting the ruler, or it can be elective.

As many have pointed out, monarchy is a very flexible form of government, as is constitutional monarchy.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: richard_1990 on November 11, 2009, 06:58:39 AM
Quote from: Lisa Davidson
To be correct, a constitutional monarch is one who derives her/his power to govern from a constitution. The sovereign may reign in a parliamentary system, a republican system, and heredity can be the means of selecting the ruler, or it can be elective.
As far as I'm aware the very definition of a republic is that the head of state is not a monarch.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on November 11, 2009, 06:37:30 PM
 :)Yes, of course you may have a mintie!

They are so good to have when chewing things over!

One thing to "bear" in mind for Russia is to also consider the following wise words by Manly B. Halll, written quite some time ago, regarding the ancient symbol of the two headed eagle. I have heard this symbol as being discussed as being part of ancient byzantinium times...

So here is something to think about when chewing on your minties!

THE DOUBLE HEADED EAGLE - THE SUPREME SYMBOL

Here is depicted the Supreme Hierophant, Master of the double Holy Empire of the superior and the inferior universe. The ancient emblem of equlibrium consisted of an androgynous body surmounted by two heads, one male and the other female, wearing a single imperial crown. That being alone is perfect in which all opposites are reconciled, and this state of perfection is appropriately typified by the two heads of equal dignity. Hence the double-headed eagle is reserved as the emblem of completion, for it signifies the Philosopher's Stone, the ultimate soul condition, and that absolute and transcended perfection which arises only from the fullest unfoldment of the latent potentialities within the individual. Philosophocally, the thirty-third degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite represents the innermost sanctuary of the Masonic mysticism. If the double-headed eagle, the symbol of the sublime degree,
were endowed with the power of speech, it would say:

"Only he may wear me in whom there is no guile in whom all passion has been transmuted to compassion, all natural ingnorance into divine wisdom, all selfishness into selflessness; for I am an ancient and a sacred emblem of all greatness, all perfection, and all truth. I represent a spiritual condition, a mental attitude, a physical state attained only by the elect of earth. I am the symbol of the illumined and transfigured soul which has been born again and has approached the throne of Divinity. I am the symbol of the gatekeeper, for with one face I behold the radiant countenance of my Creator and with the other the expanse of the universe which He has fashioned. Upon my strong pinions of intuition and reason men have ascended to a position betwixt heaven and earth. He is whom I spread my wings is more than a man yet less than a god; therefore he is a god-man. I clutch between my talons the flaming cherubimic sword; the flaming spirit-fire with which the miracle of my existence was wrought. I am the symbol of the Initiator who through the ages carries Ganymedes in to the prescence of the gods upon his back."
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Glastonbury on December 09, 2009, 09:35:56 AM
One could say that Russia remains a monarchy, but in a state of interregnum. The succession was suspended, not legally removed. It is not, however, for claimants to make claims and dream of power, but only to serve Russia in humility whatever status is or is not bestowed upon them by God and the Russian people. The true Czar will work unceasingly for God, the land and people of Russia to their lives end, and if they are called to office in the meantime they will work even harder in deference to those they serve.

God preserve the right.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on December 09, 2009, 06:27:54 PM
Very much agreed!

Thank you, I love your post, its exactly the point.
xxoxx
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ilias_of_John on December 10, 2009, 10:46:53 PM
Tutsi,
Where is that mintie?
Anyway, the double Headed Eagle represents the duality of the Roman Empire.
One capital is in the West, Rome, and one is in the East, Constantinople, hence the two Heads looking away from each other.
Due to the descent of the Romanov Family from the last Imperial Byzantine familiy, ie Paleologue. they adopted the DH EAGLE.
Too many it also represent Orthodoxy.

That piece you copied is written by a Freemason who is steeling the emblem, and Orthodox and Catholic Christian would be horrified to see the Eagles beeing used by Freemasons as they consider them to be anti Christianity!
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on December 14, 2009, 10:00:16 PM
Tutsi,
...
That piece you copied is written by a Freemason who is steeling the emblem, and Orthodox and Catholic Christian would be horrified to see the Eagles beeing used by Freemasons as they consider them to be anti Christianity!

I think it would be wiser if one of the moderators could please delete tutsi's November 11 post extolling Rosicrucianism.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 15, 2009, 01:36:10 AM
Tutsi,
...
That piece you copied is written by a Freemason who is steeling the emblem, and Orthodox and Catholic Christian would be horrified to see the Eagles beeing used by Freemasons as they consider them to be anti Christianity!

I think it would be wiser if one of the moderators could please delete tutsi's November 11 post extolling Rosicrucianism.


On what basis, Margarita? I would not expect this post to sit well with Orthodox Christians, but I don't see a violation of Forum rules.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on December 15, 2009, 01:55:55 AM
Thank You Lisa.

And to those who have made a judgement, think again. God moves in many circles, in many ways.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on December 15, 2009, 02:34:00 AM
Dear Margarita,

And, the reason why I posted it....

again, back to intention.....my intention was not to bring the total focus to Freemasons nor Rosicrucians but more the fact of the type of character within a person/s that is best suited for a Monarchic role.

It was more to point out that the person that does become part of the Monarchy would have a virtous nature...to be able to see all sides of things, and make good balanced decisions, to see the bigger picture and to be able to bring all into alignment with the bigger picture, to have a high moral outlook, to be a christian, and in the case of Russia, an Orthodox Russian absolutely, to also be strong, wise and healthy. To understand and have a concept of all the fundamentals of all religions as people find God everywhere, if they have good hearts, even better. To be able to resolve differences and bring unity within Russia, with all the different races that live there.

I do hope you now understand my intention in posting what I did.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Nicolas Peucelle on December 27, 2009, 01:46:49 PM
Reply (Part 1 (because limit of 7500 caracters)
Maybe we can start with: "Never say Never" ?? I am not a specialist of constitutional law, but in this Forum I guess also normal people can have a place to express their "view". Let's look back at Russia's history: But "precisely"... The "legal" power of Nicholas II has been delegated by himself in march 1917 to his son. A few hours later he changed his mind and "in the name of his child" also delegated the power of his child to Mihael Alexandrovich Romanov who was Nicholas II younger surviving brother. Here we can note a first "irregularity" which may have led to complications in case the son of Nicholas II (Alexei) would have lived till his majority (I guess 21 years, than). It may have not, but it is very possible that Alexei could have claimed "back" his throne from Mihael later on. Especially if the wife of Mihael was continued to be considered as a morganatic spouse of Mihael. In this case Alexei would have "simply" inherited the throne from Mihael after his "reign" ending by natural death or abdication in favor of Alexei. Now everybody knows that Alexei is dead and this explanation is ow just usefull to explain in which way the "holy power" of a Tsar was handled by the Tsar himself and what could have been the consequences without speculating too far. So maybe Nicholas II wished by abdicating his son, which is a disputable action in the long term, to free this child from the pressure of official burdens, especially in 1917 when the country was not in the best shape. The Tsar Nicholas is quoted as having said "No they will not have him". This was in response to the "blackmail" (by the court staffers,military or government people or whoever able to pressurize the Tsar at that moment), which he did not consider when signing the first version of his own and sole abdication, that this Tsar Child will have to take "office" with a regency and live without his parents in the vincinity. Nicholas, allone, without his wife made this choice to have his son have a most happy life as a child. So the abdication had to be retyped, and as it seems, the second version had the date and time of the first abdication placed on it. This choice having been done as a measure to keep his child out of trouble is an easy ground to later dispute its durability in time. Alexei was murdered, so the qestion is now to analyze how much Nicholas as the last undisputed legal leader of the Russian people was considering the transmission of his Imperial power to his brother Mihael as a final solution: This may be important when monarchists consider also the will of the last will of the sovereign to be of importance, beside other rules. I suggest here that Nicholas (even with the option of a return of his son later on in mind) was considering that his brother Mihael was the most rightfull heir to the throne of Russia after him and his son Alexei. Considering that the abdication precisely mentions the name of Mihael Romanov and that the brother as the only legal power able to decide about this choice was Nicholas II, a monarchist can consider that Mihael was rightfull to consider himself the legally designated new Tsar in the moment he was informed about this new situation by the persons bringing him the news in official fashion. So what did Mihael Romanov with this legal decision of his brother Nicholas II? He did not immediately wished to accept the succession to his brothers position and made a written statement that the choice about the new Tsar must be left open till the Russian people will have the time to plebiscite on this question. I do not know precisely if in that document signed by Mihael Romanov it was just a matter to mount an election concerning his precise Person as future Tsar, or if the choice will be open to any other pretender or even if Tsardom can be “voted out” and the country be changed into a Republic for good. But I guess that this document signed by Mihael Romanov is in fact the last “legal” document to be of value for the Russian monarchists when considering a next, fully legal step towards a new Russian regime. I considered it a big chance for them, that Mihael left behind this option in writing and probably this document is still existing? According to Nicholas II abdication and the following decision of Mihael Romanov to let the Russian government run the state affairs till “the elections” the Kerensky administration of Imperial Russia is still to be considered a legal form of Russia through monarchist eyes.. I guess that the change of the Russian Empire into a “ Russian Republic”, as it was done by the Kerensky government later in 1917 cannot be considered as “legal” any more, considering that the Russian people had never time in 1917 to fairly get an occasion to vote on the matter. When Kernsky and his men had to flee from Russia  from Lenin’s Bolcheviks, the legality of any further decision in the matter of statehood is interrupted for good. We may consider a total interruption of “legality “since late 1917 and the entire Bolchevik Era as a period to “ignore” when trying to look for a new start connected to the legal proceedings with Nicholas II and his brother Mihael. ---------- So when I started my comment with “Never say Never” I wished to attract attention to the “incredible-incroyable ” which happened before our eyes! The red bolchevik regime degenerated in front of us, and broke down. Who would have imagined that the Imperial Eagle of Russia will be raised again (not the Russian republic Eagle without Imperial crown of 1917!!), especially inside the Parliament of Russia today??? I mean.. with the Imperial crown , crests and all the rest? Will this be just a movie décor for the TV programs or is it a much deeper need which the Russian people wish to satisfy sooner or later? It may be worth to look more closely at the document signed by Mihael Romanov in 1917. Did he allow the Duma (Parliament) to have “anybody” be elected by them to be the next Tsar of Russia? Wasn’t the question of a constitutional monarchy not anyhow the only envisioned option? The disputes of present day Romanov Family members may not be too relevant in this case. The Russian Duma may be allowed to define who is the next Constitutional Monarch of Russia and with what kind of powers. The position of the Orthodox Chruch is most important, too. (First part of my reply.. to be continued with part 2)
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Nicolas Peucelle on December 27, 2009, 01:48:55 PM
(Reply continued from part 1)....
Only the ointed Tsar will be a real one, and once he will be so by the Patriarch, than his Tsardom is to be recognized by all. If he is able and loved he will restore the Tsardom day by day by his good actions and faith into his mission. The Romanov Dynastie started through an election. A vote…. By Russian free men of that time. A new vote for a new Tsar by Russian free men is absolutely a possibility especially if the modern leaders of Russia will see an advantage in this measure. The problem of the nobility of Russia is also that no more fresh blood is added to their class by a sovereign who compensates natural decline and disproportional low numbers of aristocrats with his power to make some more . People with merits who join the “club” and get accepted over time and refresh their till now ever shrinking world full of regrets. Imagine that some day the real Russian leadership “sponsors” their own Tsar, and that he will make counts and dukes out of them, if they wish so… (that their children will be full of money and other privileges)….  That this monarch will allow them into newly instaured knight orders, have a lot of medals with nice designs to attribute..That kind of Tsardom coupled with the support of their church is always an option. The first Tsar will have to be a smooth puppet in their hands and play the game. But it may work out fine for Russia. I seriously consider this option as not from the table for ever.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: tutsi on December 29, 2009, 07:07:41 PM
Very good points to consider, thank you so much for sharing the information.

The really wonderful thing is that as we speak here, history is being re~written....

This whole thing is like a J.R.R Tolkien movie. Lets make it a force for Good and only Good! Gandalf type beings supreme!


and may God's will be done, for after all, its the best way.





Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on May 08, 2010, 05:08:29 PM
If Russia becomes a monarchy again, and that's a big IF, it will be, IMHO, a constitutional monarchy, like Britian.  The Tsar, whomever that may be, will basically have the same powers and duties that Queen Elizabeth II currently has.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: JonC on June 24, 2010, 12:06:41 AM
:)Yes, of course you may have a mintie!

They are so good to have when chewing things over!

One thing to "bear" in mind for Russia is to also consider the following wise words by Manly B. Halll, written quite some time ago, regarding the ancient symbol of the two headed eagle. I have heard this symbol as being discussed as being part of ancient byzantinium times...

So here is something to think about when chewing on your minties!

THE DOUBLE HEADED EAGLE - THE SUPREME SYMBOl


Here is depicted the Supreme Hierophant, Master of the double Holy Empire of the superior and the inferior universe. The ancient emblem of equlibrium consisted of an androgynous body surmounted by two heads, one male and the other female, wearing a single imperial crown. That being alone is perfect in which all opposites are reconciled, and this state of perfection is appropriately typified by the two heads of equal dignity. Hence the double-headed eagle is reserved as the emblem of completion, for it signifies the Philosopher's Stone, the ultimate soul condition, and that absolute and transcended perfection which arises only from the fullest unfoldment of the latent potentialities within the individual. Philosophocally, the thirty-third degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite represents the innermost sanctuary of the Masonic mysticism. If the double-headed eagle, the symbol of the sublime degree,
were endowed with the power of speech, it would say:

"Only he may wear me in whom there is no guile in whom all passion has been transmuted to compassion, all natural ingnorance into divine wisdom, all selfishness into selflessness; for I am an ancient and a sacred emblem of all greatness, all perfection, and all truth. I represent a spiritual condition, a mental attitude, a physical state attained only by the elect of earth. I am the symbol of the illumined and transfigured soul which has been born again and has approached the throne of Divinity. I am the symbol of the gatekeeper, for with one face I behold the radiant countenance of my Creator and with the other the expanse of the universe which He has fashioned. Upon my strong pinions of intuition and reason men have ascended to a position betwixt heaven and earth. He is whom I spread my wings is more than a man yet less than a god; therefore he is a god-man. I clutch between my talons the flaming cherubimic sword; the flaming spirit-fire with which the miracle of my existence was wrought. I am the symbol of the Initiator who through the ages carries Ganymedes in to the prescence of the gods upon his back."


Margarita I agree with you and, Tutsi is a sly one indeed!! The double headed eagle symbol almost exactly like the Romanov symbol has been in use by ' The Order Of Malta ', I believe since AD 1087, and taken over especially by the ' Free Masons '. Instead of St George slaying the dragon they have replaced that image with a large white Maltese Cross. I was shocked when I saw it earlier today during my research of The Nights Templars and the Jesuit order...scary stuff indeed..especially the oath they took devoting themselves entirely for the protection of the Pope. If you think the Muslims are crazy blowing themselves up well I hope no-one unleashes these guys. Freemasonry promotes the worship of any god clearly differing with the Biblical command to worship only the Creator, Sovereign Lord and God the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ. Tutsi should be more revealing of his true beliefs. JonC.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: scarlett_riviera on October 11, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
It's been a long time since i was last interested in this topic but I think Prince Michael of Kent will make a good tsar. I know it's a long stretch and I'm not a really huge fan of the Kents but he is a well-known figure in Russia, speaks fluent Russian, and has many charities there (and business interests). I know many folks would like GD Maria to be the Empress but she doesn't strike me as regal. Just my opinion. Anyway I don't know if Russia will ever agree to reinstating the monarchy- they seem to be fine with just Putin and Medvedev. How are things over there by the way? I know in the 1990s things were real bad...hopefully things are better now. At least on TV they make it seem that way.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on October 31, 2010, 05:01:23 PM
It would be nice to see the Romanov's rightfully restored to the throne of Russia.  Of course, it would be a Constitutional Monarchy, like Britain, of course.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on October 31, 2010, 07:09:33 PM
It would be nice to see the Romanov's rightfully restored to the throne of Russia.  Of course, it would be a Constitutional Monarchy, like Britain, of course.

Why should the present Romanov Family have precedence or seek reward today?

Do not forget that three former Grand Dukes publicly rejected their monarch on March 1, 1917 by co-signing a document that was submitted to the Duma Committee, days before the Provisional Government came to power.

Other members of the Family promptly followed suit, including Elizaveta Fyodorovna.

[Ref: "The Murder of Grigorii Rasputin: A Conspiracy That Brought Down the Russian Empire", by Margarita Nelipa, pp 409-410 and p 426]
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: richard_1990 on October 31, 2010, 09:16:14 PM
Quote
Why should the present Romanov Family have precedence or seek reward today?
Largely in the name of historical continuity, in my view anyway. It would be better to put a Romanov on the throne than to have to decide on another family.
Quote
Do not forget that three former Grand Dukes publicly rejected their monarch on March 1, 1917 by co-signing a document that was submitted to the Duma Committee, days before the Provisional Government came to power.
I never understood why some people insist on bringing this up. The Romanov succession since the dynasties founding was incredibly manipulative with legitimate heirs being outright murdered. Tsar Ivan VI was overthrow in a coup by his own sister, the Empress Elizabeth, and eventually killed. Should we disqualify all the Romanov's that followed him as illegitimate based on the acts of Elizabeth?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Belochka on October 31, 2010, 11:34:02 PM
Largely in the name of historical continuity, in my view anyway. It would be better to put a Romanov on the throne than to have to decide on another family.

Any consideration for the emergence of a monarch on the political landscape, IMO is no longer a feasible option for Russia today or in her future.

I never understood why some people insist on bringing this up. The Romanov succession since the dynasties founding was incredibly manipulative with legitimate heirs being outright murdered. Tsar Ivan VI was overthrow in a coup by his own sister, the Empress Elizabeth, and eventually killed. Should we disqualify all the Romanov's that followed him as illegitimate based on the acts of Elizabeth?

The simple truth is that Grand Duke Kirill disqualified himself and willingly gave legal effect to his decision.

Therfore what ever he did after the fact in a foreign jurisdiction can only be described as frivolous.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on November 01, 2010, 10:15:10 AM
Yeah, the Romanovs are part of Russia, it would be nice to see them get the throne back (as I said above, it would be a Constitutional Monarchy).  That would be the final nail in the coffin of the monster known as the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 01, 2010, 07:29:40 PM
It will take generations for Russia to recover from being ruled by a group of criminasl for 70+ years. While some Romanov descendants are slowly making their way back to Mother Russia, I tend to agree with Belochka that monarchy is simply not feasible for Russia politically right now.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on November 02, 2010, 11:50:08 AM
Well, that's kind of nice to know.  It's time for the Romanovs to come home :)
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: rpalmgre on October 31, 2018, 05:47:03 PM
The sovereign Imperial House of Russia is sadly de iure extinct. Grand Duchess Maria of Russia has the strongest support for her claim out of the three present pretenders to the Russian throne. I do think we cannot see a restoration of monarchy in Russia in the near future but if the Russian people want to return back to monarchy Grand Duchess Maria of Russia would as it seems at the moment be ready and willing to take up that defunct Imperial throne.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Sanochka on November 01, 2018, 10:51:05 AM
From time to time since 2010 I track the possibility of a restoration of the monarchy in Russia and have some interesting news to report.  In 2010, general support for a restoration was roughly 28%.  In just three years that figure climbed to 33%, where it stands today.   According to an Izvestia poll in 2017, support among the young is 37%.  These are not insubstantial percentages.

Suprisingly, there is a Monarchist Party in Russia, registered and licensed in 2012 and currently with 47 branch offices scattered throughout Russia.  Add to this a resurgence of interest in Russia in the former Imperial family, and Romanovs routinely traveling to Russia to participate in official State ceremonies.  None of this would have been imaginable until fairly recently - certainly not before 1991.

Given the above, restoration of monarchy in Russia within our lifetimes is not beyond the realm of possibility.  And Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has made it quite clear, in interviews and in writings, that she stands ready to take the throne should a restoration come about, but only by popular referendum.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on December 03, 2018, 10:05:39 AM
Unless Putin installs himself as Tsar first.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: missmoldavite365 on December 10, 2018, 03:23:32 AM
I  do wonder about this subject as well. It seems there are many different layers to be worked out.

Not only in terms of what do the Russian People themselves want (and even getting true and clear voting that hasn't been tampered with), but also, its good to ask questions about why.

1. Why would having a constitutional monarchy be good for Russia and her peoples?

2. Then there are also the other aspects that at this point in time, go hand in hand with statesmanship, like how would the Russian Orthodoxy, Federal Security Service and the Foreign Intelligent Service react to such a different era being brought in. What sort of issues may be faced, and would they all work together to truly honour Russia and her peoples.

3. Would such a new era bring stability in terms of currency, trade, strengthen diplomatic relations and family relations throughout Europe or would it destabilise it.
Again what sort of issues may be faced.

4. The Romanov family still seem very divided on many issues, this is not a good thing. Remembering that saying: Together we stand, divided we fall.

5. One must never forget what happened to the Late Imperial Family. It shows just what can happen when circumstances and people are not happy and in alignment as a whole.

6. Absolute power brings absolute corruption. Be mindful of what this actually means.

Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 26, 2018, 05:42:10 PM
In the 14 Dec 2018 issue of the Wall Street journal there is an article about making Putin Tsar!? and people who want Russia to be a monarchy.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ellie on February 11, 2019, 04:59:51 AM
A short while ago I read that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova would like the rules of accession altered so that her son Michael can marry for love.
Who is the authority that she could appeal to?
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Ellie on February 11, 2019, 06:26:43 AM
Correction. I wasn't able to modify my above post. Grand Duchess Maria's son is George.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: PAGE on February 12, 2019, 11:12:58 AM
Already, the pretender to the throne should be legitimate.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on February 13, 2019, 05:17:18 PM
Quote
In the 14 Dec 2018 issue of the Wall Street journal there is an article about making Putin Tsar!?

He already is a de facto Tsar. 

I saw a clip of him striding down the corridors of the Kremlin, with band music playing and servants opening doors for him as he approached.   I could easily see a Tsar getting the exact same reception.

The only difference is that the Tsar was, to most Russians, a mysterious and distant figure.  However, television and the Internet allows Putin to reach the people, no matter where they are. 
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Превед on February 16, 2019, 04:00:43 AM
A short while ago I read that Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanova would like the rules of accession altered so that her son Michael can marry for love.
Who is the authority that she could appeal to?

According to the Fundamental Laws of 1906, a change in the Fundamental Laws' rule about Ebenbürtigkeit would require the ratification of both the ruling monarch, the State Duma and the State Council of a restored Russian Empire. So no formally valid way of going about that untill the monarchy is restored. Informally she could probably get away with it if the Orthodox Church gave its blessing, Putin his tacit approval (by attending the wedding) and the bride was a Russian. But allegedly Grand Duke Georgiy Mikhailovitch's girlfriend is an Italian.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: Превед on February 16, 2019, 04:08:13 AM
I saw a clip of him striding down the corridors of the Kremlin, with band music playing and servants opening doors for him as he approached.   I could easily see a Tsar getting the exact same reception.

In a German documentary about the (second) German Empire I heard something interesting about the similar German Ersatz monarchs: Already during the reign of Wilhelm II the deposed Bismarck was the shadow monarch (regarded by many as the more competent statesman), then during WW1 Ludendorff and after the abolition of the monarchy Hindenburg as president. Hitler combined the roles of organic national leader, visionary statesman and official political leader in the role of Führer.
Title: Re: How likely is Russia to become a monarchy again?
Post by: TimM on February 16, 2019, 11:02:36 AM
So yeah, Putin is Tsar, in everything but the title itself.