Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Yussupovs => Topic started by: Steph on May 25, 2005, 09:22:30 AM

Title: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Steph on May 25, 2005, 09:22:30 AM
 :-/

Does anyone know the dates of birth and death of Princess Tatiana, elder sister of Princess Zenaida Yusupov?

When did their parents get married?

Love to all,

Steph
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on May 25, 2005, 09:48:35 AM
Quote
:-/

Does anyone know the dates of birth and death of Princess Tatiana, elder sister of Princess Zenaida Yusupov?

When did their parents get married?

Love to all,

Steph


I am very interested to know what happened to her too. All I know is she was 19 when she died, and I think it was the same year the mother died, which was 1879.  Zenaida was born in 1861 so that would only make her a year or two older. I have never seen anything official.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on May 25, 2005, 01:07:59 PM
I have yet to see a picture of Princess Tatiana. She died young, 19 I believe, but not much is known about her. Which is a real pity.

Is there a picture of Zenaida's parents?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Athena on August 12, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia/jussupov/loversknots-tiara-jusupov.htm
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on August 12, 2005, 05:38:36 PM
That's their mother.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: lancashireladandre on August 20, 2005, 01:42:20 PM
 Zenaidas YOUNGER sister Tatiana lived from 1866 till 1888 and is buried at Arkhangelskoye.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Valmont on August 22, 2005, 03:34:03 PM
Younger??... Somehow I had the idea , her sister was OLDER..?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on August 23, 2005, 01:08:31 PM
Quote
Younger??... Somehow I had the idea , her sister was OLDER..?


Yes, I thought so too, it has been mentioned in several books that her older sister died, leaving her the sole heir to the fortune.

Also, the parents were older, born in 1827 and 1828, it is unusual they would not have had a child before 1861. I think of this because I was born in 1961 and my parents in 1927 and 1928, and I was the third of 4 kids. Especially back then with the desire for heirs, and lack of birth control, it would be unusual they would not have a child until they were over 30, especially a woman. I have never heard of any other babies dying in infancy before Zenaida, have you?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: lancashireladandre on August 24, 2005, 11:37:54 AM
Somewhere I have read their was a baby brother Boris who died in infancy. One of the reasons could have been that there were numerous miscarriages amongst the way. Queen Anne, the last Stuart monarch had into the teens of children and all but one died in earliest infancy.The sole survivor reached the age of 11 !!!!.It could have been an equally sad scenario. The dates for Tatiana come from a book on Arkhangelskoye published in 1984. In another book, "Russian Court Memories" published here (UK) in 1917 by an anonymous author. The writer who is obviously au fait with the family mention the younger Tatiana. Hope this of help.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: elizaveta on May 02, 2006, 03:18:09 PM
Am seeking information on Pss. Zenaide's sister, Tatiana, born 1866.  Of particular interest is her death and the months leading up to her death.  Thank you all,   Elizaveta
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Reco on May 02, 2006, 03:44:29 PM
Before beginning a new poll, why not read the old poll?

There are so much people who begin a new poll without worrying about old or at the bad place.

You would have found the answer to your question. The paress is an unpleasant defect.

There is the poll  : Princess Tatiana Alexandrovna  

And there is an other one :   Princess Zenaida' S elder sister
 

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Reco on May 02, 2006, 11:29:11 PM
There is the poll  : Princess Tatiana Alexandrovna  ( Yes, I am wrong )

And there is an other one :   Princess Zenaida' S elder sister ( This is the good one ) p 4
 
Zenaida born in 1861 and Tatiana in 1866.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Morecambrian on May 03, 2006, 07:12:56 AM
Princess Tatiana Nikolayevna Youssoupoff 1866-1888 is buried at Archangelskoye
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: gugussey on September 20, 2006, 10:10:10 PM
Does anyone have reliable information about the death of Pss Tatiana N Yusupova, sister of Zenaide, aside from what is written in Ferrand? 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on September 21, 2006, 03:34:37 AM
We have already discussed this topic,if you trawl back, you may find the answer behind the Princesses death in 1888. :)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Svetabel on June 30, 2007, 03:28:38 AM
Little Tatiana Nikolayevna's miniature.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/minta.jpg)

Poor girl died of typhoid in 1888, there is her sculpture (as an Angel) in the Yusupovskiy Palace on Moika in St-Petersbourg.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 14, 2007, 12:38:34 PM
Tatiana was twenty-two at the time of her death, does anyone know if she had any suitors? Isn't twenty-two a little old for her not to be married or engaged for the times?

Also, I wonder why there isn't many pictures of her out there. She died in 1888 so she must have known Nicholas and maybe Felix, not sure if she died before or after his birth, but wouldn't there by family pictures?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2007, 12:29:08 AM
We have already discussed this topic,if you trawl back, you may find the answer behind the Princesses death in 1888. :)

Where?  ??? Not in this thread.

I'm still shocked that she was younger, I'd always seen that she was older. I'm also surprised that she was still alive when Felix was born, but no mention of her is made in his memoirs, though older and less recently deceased relatives were. I'm also wondering why Sandro didn't mention her. He had a big crush on Zenaida, and mentions it in his book, but this sister was exactly his age, and looked something like Zenaida, yet he never mentions liking her, or her at all! Could it be she had some kind of 'problem' that kept her out of the public eye? This is strange.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Svetabel on July 15, 2007, 01:54:13 AM

I'm still shocked that she was younger, I'd always seen that she was older. I'm also surprised that she was still alive when Felix was born, but no mention of her is made in his memoirs, though older and less recently deceased relatives were. I'm also wondering why Sandro didn't mention her. He had a big crush on Zenaida, and mentions it in his book, but this sister was exactly his age, and looked something like Zenaida, yet he never mentions liking her, or her at all! Could it be she had some kind of 'problem' that kept her out of the public eye? This is strange.

I have the same question. Tatiana is a mystery as if she never lived :-\. Only guess coud be she was very sickly and delicate and wasn't able to mix in society. Her mother Princess Tatiana was delicate in health and Tatiana-younger possibly inherited her weak constitution..and by the way possibly Tatiana-younger had some mental problems as her parents were almost close relatives - just my thought but as a variant... :-\
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2007, 09:14:14 AM
Thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one. A mental problem, that's what I was thinking too  :-X Or she could have had some kind of health issue that caused her to slowly waste away or be less than 'normal.' It's very strange we don't see pictures of her after she was beyond childhood, you never see pictures of Zenaida and her together as you would OTMA or other sisters. It really seems odd that here's almost no mention of her anywhere while Zenaida is always shown and mentioned as a very famous social butterfly.  It would be interesting to find out the true story, even if it's sad. :-\
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 15, 2007, 11:45:05 AM
It's very sad indeed, that there is no information or pictures to give us more insight into this forgotten Yussupov.

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on July 16, 2007, 02:05:42 AM
I think everyones imaginations are working overtime here....Felix did not mention his aunt as he was only a year old when she died...so he had no memories of her...As for mental illness..well it was true her parents shared ONE mutal grandparent (Tatiana Engelhardt) but the odds for being retarded etc are not a huge in that closeness of kinship...I think it is just fair to say that Tatiana was naturally frail (perhaps consumptive)and lived a rather quiet sheltered life before her early death..
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Taksa on July 16, 2007, 03:56:37 AM
ashanti01

my scanner doenst still work so I took a picture of the photo again. I hope you dont mind.

(http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n192/Taksa/IMG_2077.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 16, 2007, 10:30:52 AM
Taska,

Thank you so much for posting the picture! She was a very lovely young girl! I've never seen a picture of her as a young woman, so I'm totally excited about this right now.  :)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: gugussey on July 16, 2007, 10:43:24 AM
There is also a memorial  statue of Tatiana in the Moika palace.  It depicts Tatiana as a winged angel, clutching flowers. The face is very much like that in the photo just posted.  Although Felix was just a baby when his aunt died, he does mention many other family members who lived and died before he was born, so it is peculiar that he doesn't devote a word to his beloved mother's sister.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on July 16, 2007, 01:00:47 PM
There is also a memorial  statue of Tatiana in the Moika palace.  It depicts Tatiana as a winged angel, clutching flowers. The face is very much like that in the photo just posted.  Although Felix was just a baby when his aunt died, he does mention many other family members who lived and died before he was born, so it is peculiar that he doesn't devote a word to his beloved mother's sister.
One of the reasons could be he wanted to dramatise his mother being the sole heiress to the vast family fortune....the fact she had a sister and a brother Boris who had died in extreme infancy might have made it all les dramatic....
Zenaida must have talked about her sister at times....Meriel Buchanan mentioned her (in passing) and she knew Zenaida well in 1921 in Rome.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: gugussey on July 16, 2007, 06:28:19 PM
 Also it's known that Zenaide commenorated her sister's death annually in a small family service.  So Felix could not have been unaware that he had had  an "aunt".
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Taksa on July 17, 2007, 04:07:29 AM
Taska,

Thank you so much for posting the picture! She was a very lovely young girl! I've never seen a picture of her as a young woman, so I'm totally excited about this right now.  :)

not at all.))
yes she was quite pretty.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 10:06:01 AM
Thanks for the picture, she was lovely,and it's nice to see Zenaida kept her memory alive. It is strange Felix didn't mention more about her in his book since he did discuss other dead relatives.

Since her hair is down in the picture, I guess we can assume she was less than 17. This may be the last image of her in good health,for all we know. Could it be she developed some kind of health or mental issue after that age? I know I am speculating again, but I can't get over how this lovely Yussoupov girl isn't spoken of in anyone's stories! I especially wonder about it because of Sandro, he was the same age as this sister, yet he only spoke of having a crush on Zenaida. Does this mean she wasn't in public view often? And if so why? And what killed her at such a young age? It is strange a girl of that status and beauty would not have had suitors. So many sad questions. I want to know more about this girl. I wonder if we'll ever know :( Maybe that is the last pic of her in good health and this is why Zenaida loved it so much.

Another guess could be she was weakened by some fever, like scarlet fever. This was common in those days, and is what caused Helen Keller to go blind and deaf, Mary Ingalls to go blind, and Queen Alexandra of England and Princess Alice (daughter of Victoria Milford-Haven) to go partially deaf. It also caused "Beth", the sister of "Jo" in Little Women, to pass away. This was of course based on a true story. Louisa May Alcott's sister got a weakened heart from the fever, and became more or less a bedridden invalid for the last few years of her life, then she finally passed away, very young. It could have been something like that.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on July 17, 2007, 12:29:40 PM
Thanks for the picture, she was lovely,and it's nice to see Zenaida kept her memory alive. It is strange Felix didn't mention more about her in his book since he did discuss other dead relatives.

Since her hair is down in the picture, I guess we can assume she was less than 17. This may be the last image of her in good health,for all we know. Could it be she developed some kind of health or mental issue after that age? I know I am speculating again, but I can't get over how this lovely Yussoupov girl isn't spoken of in anyone's stories! I especially wonder about it because of Sandro, he was the same age as this sister, yet he only spoke of having a crush on Zenaida. Does this mean she wasn't in public view often? And if so why? And what killed her at such a young age? It is strange a girl of that status and beauty would not have had suitors. So many sad questions. I want to know more about this girl. I wonder if we'll ever know :( Maybe that is the last pic of her in good health and this is why Zenaida loved it so much.

Another guess could be she was weakened by some fever, like scarlet fever. This was common in those days, and is what caused Helen Keller to go blind and deaf, Mary Ingalls to go blind, and Queen Alexandra of England and Princess Alice (daughter of Victoria Milford-Haven) to go partially deaf. It also caused "Beth", the sister of "Jo" in Little Women, to pass away. This was of course based on a true story. Louisa May Alcott's sister got a weakened heart from the fever, and became more or less a bedridden invalid for the last few years of her life, then she finally passed away, very young. It could have been something like that.
It must be remembered that Zenaida's parents spent a great deal of time out of Russia..in the search for cures (perhaps for both Tatiana's not just the mother) and Sandro might not have known the younger sister as she was in Switzerland etc while Zenaida was brought up more in Russia as a temporary ward of the Imperial court and later as a married woman.I am sure Zenaida was devoted to her sister and felt great grief at her untimely death, after all with the death of her own father in 1891 her own close family were totally gone..no wonder she indulged her children !!!
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 17, 2007, 02:32:42 PM
Good point Ashdean,

It could be that Tatiana did spend much time with her parents traveling searching for a cure. Otherwise how else could one explain people not mentioning her as much as they mentioned Zenaida in thier youth? Sandro I'm sure would have remembered such a lovely girl had he had more interaction with her.

Didn't Zenaida have fragile health herself? I know she suffered a breakdown after the death of her son Nicholas. But I think she may have already had health issues before that. Then you can forget that Felix was a fragile child as well. Rather odd how the family was pledge with illness.

Another point you made, Ashdean was that it was the death of her parents and only surviving silbling which made her cling even more to her two surviving sons, and spoiled them rather badly :-\

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 08:38:47 PM
Good point Ashdean,

It could be that Tatiana did spend much time with her parents traveling searching for a cure. Otherwise how else could one explain people not mentioning her as much as they mentioned Zenaida in thier youth? Sandro I'm sure would have remembered such a lovely girl had he had more interaction with her.

Didn't Zenaida have fragile health herself? I know she suffered a breakdown after the death of her son Nicholas. But I think she may have already had health issues before that. Then you can forget that Felix was a fragile child as well. Rather odd how the family was pledge with illness.

Oh I never knew they traveled a lot. Maybe that's the answer, she was in Switzerland much of the time.M Thanks for the info. That could explain the ill health thing as well.

]quote]Another point you made, Ashdean was that it was the death of her parents and only surviving silbling which made her cling even more to her two surviving sons, and spoiled them rather badly :-\ [/quote]

Yes, and don't forget too that she lost 2 sons as infants between Nikolai and Felix, so that would make her even more overprotective.

In Felix's book he says when he was at Oxford, there were times she'd freak out and think he was dead and he had to rush to her side to prove he was alive. Poor thing. :(


[/quote]
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on July 21, 2007, 09:49:11 AM
Another point worth mentioning is Felix never mentioned his fathers younger (and childless) sister Alexandra, she lived in exile in Rome till her death in 1936 and must have been in contact with her invalid brother till his death..perhaps she benefited from the Youssoupoff largesse....again there is nothing sinister about this...just she did not feature prominently in his life and thus did not rate a mention...
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 12, 2007, 09:57:49 PM
In the article about Marina de Hayden posted in that thread, it mentions that Zenaida's sister was 'thought to have killed herself.' I wonder if this info came from Marina, or who? However it also states incorrectly that Zenaida had lost 3 sons before Nicholas was born. That is not true! He was the first child, and there were two who died between him and Felix. So who knows if it's right, but I just wanted to pass this rumor along to see if anyone knew anything.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 13, 2007, 01:54:48 AM
Yes I did note the incorrect information about Zenaida having had sons before NIcholas which was incorrect. Nicholas was her first child and it's known that she did have children after Nicholas but who all died as infants except for Felix.

The rumor of Tatiana having killed herself was mentioned awhile back in one of the threads but I can't remember which one. It appears that after her death, rumors were running around that the young girl had not died of an illness but had committed suicide. Considering how little is known of Tatiana, I doubt we will ever learn the actual events of her death, except that it was untimely. 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 13, 2007, 07:45:15 PM
Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her????
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on October 14, 2007, 02:48:23 AM
Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her????
WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: gugussey on October 14, 2007, 12:33:10 PM
On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 14, 2007, 04:36:13 PM
Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her????
WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..

All right! what ever, I don't really give a dam; I am not a historian for the Yussupovs, ok, it was only a thought!
becasue my cousin killed herself and her family didn't care! that why! :'( :(
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 14, 2007, 07:18:06 PM
On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.

It was impossible, unless the children were all illegitimate. Remember that Zenaida and Old Felix were married in 1882. Nicholas was said by Felix to be 5 years older, and to have been 26 in 1908, meaning he was born later that year. The mini bio for Zenaida says he was born in 1882. Some claim Nicholas was born in 1883, however, even if that were so there is no way a married Zenaida could possibly have had 3 kids before Nicholas! If she had 3 babies before that, she was an unwed teen mother! Felix said the babies were between him and Nicholas, and that makes much more sense.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 14, 2007, 07:59:19 PM
Possibly, thats why we don't know much of her. and that her family erased her from face of earth becasue she killed herself. did her sister say anything about her????
WHERE DO YOU GET THE IDEA "HER FAMILY ERASED HER FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH" !!!! She was buried among her family...a leading sculptor was commissioned to create a suitable monument  and I am sure she was often thought of or spoken of by her sister to friends or staff who had known her...she was certainly mentioned by Zenaida (in however brief a way) to Lady Georgiana Buchanan or her daughter Meriel when they lived near Zenaida in Rome in 1919-1921. My father died 20 years ago..I often think about him...daily...speak about him too but NOT DAILY.... even to my mother..you have to let the dead rest..Zenaida was no doubt like this..


All right! what ever, I don't really give a dam; I am not a historian for the Yussupovs, ok, it was only a thought!
becasue my cousin killed herself and her family didn't care! that why! :'( :(

I'm sorry about your cousin, Mandie ((hugs)) I know how sad it is to have someone be so sad they want to die, and then to have no one care.

In the olden days, more than not caring, it could have been because a suicide, like an illegitimate baby, was a 'shame' on the family and hidden, covered up and lied about. In the US, it is sad but some suicides are buried on 'unhallowed ground', I even know of one teenage girl whose tombstone is off the church grounds from the rest of the cemetary, with the tombstone facing backwards from all the others! Because the very mention of someone who had committed suicide would bring up this embarrassment, they might be unlikely to speak of her in public. I do believe Zenaida thought about her in private, though.

I guess this brings up the question of 'why.' Because Marina lived in those times, she may have heard something we don't know, something that has never survived in anyone's writings or memoirs. Marina, as you can tell my her story, was not one to stick up for the Y family, so she may spread something others concealed. This is speculation, but for all we know, it could be true. There have been many questions of her mental and physical health, if she did do it, maybe that was a reason why. Overall, I do find the story of this young girl very strange and clandestine  considering how much we know about so many others.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 15, 2007, 02:10:31 AM
On page 121 of the Ferrand book, that author writes:  "Before the birth of Nicholas Felixovitch she (Zenaide) had three infants who died at "bas-age"...early age."   I realize that Jacques Ferrand is not infallible, but he is somewhat of a gold standard.

It was impossible, unless the children were all illegitimate. Remember that Zenaida and Old Felix were married in 1882. Nicholas was said by Felix to be 5 years older, and to have been 26 in 1908, meaning he was born later that year. The mini bio for Zenaida says he was born in 1882. Some claim Nicholas was born in 1883, however, even if that were so there is no way a married Zenaida could possibly have had 3 kids before Nicholas! If she had 3 babies before that, she was an unwed teen mother! Felix said the babies were between him and Nicholas, and that makes much more sense.

There's no question that Zenaida had given birth to more than two sons, however when presented with dates, I would have to agree w/ you, Annie and say that those boys were born between Nicholas and Felix.

It's not uncommon for information to get mixed up when some authors go off hear say, when there are little facts. Luckily more and more information is coming out, especially over the last few years. Think of all the wealth of information and pictures that have shown up lately? However it is sad to know that there's still so little information relating to two mystery 'persona's' in this tragic family...Tatiana and Nicholas. It seems we know enough to know that they were young, beautiful and tragic, but little else.. What I wouldn't give to be able to get into the Yussupov archives and research away.
 :)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 15, 2007, 10:52:42 PM
Here's what Felix said in his memoirs:

My mother, who had already had three sons, two of whom had died in infancy, was so certain I would be a girl that she had ordered a pink layette for me.

So like you said people get things wrong, this is an example. He probably saw the 3 and didn't notice that Nicholas himself was one of the 3! Considering the date of the marriage (1882) and her age at marriage (20) and Nicholas being born in 1882 or possibly 83 (remember our discussion on this too!) there is no way in the world Zenaida had 3 babies before Nicholas unless she was an unwed teenage mother. There were 5 years between Nicholas and Felix, plenty of time for 2 babies to be born, and sadly die. Authors really should be more careful with info before they let things go to print in a nonfiction book. (this is also how the Gertrude half sister rumor got started in the AA controversy, a writer getting family dates and details wrong)

I agree with you about those archives! I hope you get to go someday, and me too! And I also hope for more interesting things to be found every day. I've been very excited about what has come out so far, and await more.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 16, 2007, 07:16:43 AM
It a fact: My mother, who had already had three sons, two of whom had died in infancy, was so certain I would be a girl that she had ordered a pink layette for me. why is everyone making a huge deal of it??!

Zenaide's children: (married in 1882)

1. Nicholas (born 1883)
2. Dead infant Son (1884?-5?)
3. second dead infant son (1885-6?)
4. Felix (1887)

Five years. it possible to have four children in five years (it takes 9 months to make and get out! 45 months is five years, 36 is four years).
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 16, 2007, 11:02:08 AM
Five years. it possible to have four children in five years (it takes 9 months to make and get out! 45 months is five years, 36 is four years).

Yes it is possible to have four children in five years. My maternal granny had six children in six years, one born every year. In fact her 9th and 10th child were both born in the same year, her daughter was born in January 1940 (died Jan 1940) and her 10th child was born in December 1940.

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2007, 11:20:22 AM
Mandie and Ex-Princess- of course it's right she had four kids in five years, that's what we're saying happend. The 'big deal' is that Ferrand's book states she had three dead sons before Nicholas was born and that was impossible, unless Zenaida was an unwed teen mother! This is why we were discussing it, and using Felix's quote to back up what really happened. Look back on the last page and you'll see how it started.

I think what happened is that when Felix said his mother had 3 sons before him, two of whom died in infancy, the writer of the book somehow misconstrued that to mean she had 3 dead sons before Nicholas, which was incorrect.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 16, 2007, 11:48:46 AM
You have to wonder how sad of time it must been for Zenaida during the late 1880's. She loses two baby sons's then finally has Felix who lives, but then loses her only sister, Tatiana.  :(   
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2007, 12:15:07 PM
Yes, so sad, and those were supposed to be her prime years for going to balls and having fun. Maybe that's why she didn't have any more kids after Felix, she was tired of being pregnant and thought they might die anyway.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 16, 2007, 12:27:27 PM
That could be it, but I do remember reading somewhere among these threads that there were some health issues involved. Either way, it seemed that Zenaida must have know she wouldn't be having any more children past Felix, given how disappointed she was at the fact that he wasn't a boy. Yet, in the long run she was devoted to her two boys just as they were devoted to her. Hence the reason the death of Nicholas was so devestating to her.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2007, 01:11:23 PM
Felix also mentioned that after the birth of one of the babies who died, she nearly died, and was almost dead when Father John Kronstadt came and healed her. For whatever reason, she knew Felix was the last baby. When I first read that, I thought it was because she was old. But finding out she was only 25 at his birth, I wondered why she didn't try at some time for another child.

It's a 'bad' thing to bring up, I know, but I have heard that in the old days in some aristocratic families, even in the US, the couple would be sexually active only long enough produce the needed heirs, then the woman would retire to a private bed and leave the husband to his mistresses. Of course this was not true in every case, it certainly wasn't for N and A, but this does seem like one situation it might have had something to do with it.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 16, 2007, 01:43:41 PM
Ok...I hope I don't get in trouble for going off topic but here it goes.

Zenaida and Felix did have two seperate bedrooms and granted that Felix did have a staircase that lead to her bedroom, but who knows how often he used it. Also, one must also remember that some time ago Greg King posted that there had been some information that stated that Felix Sr had a male lover. Okay, this could be just rumor, but you most also think that perhaps he did have a lover on the side to turn to when he realized he couldn't turn to Zenaida, since she couldn't risk having children. Then again perhaps they had birth control of some sort, but then this is all specalution which leads me back to only known fact here, Zenaida knew there would be no more babies after Felix.

They did have a relationship which although odd to some, seemed to work for them. By all accounts they were devoted to each other, and Zenaida did chose him over all other suitors, and believe she had more than enough suitors to chose from. Although Felix wrote that his mother would perhaps have been happier with a different sort of man, I don't think she was miserable in the marriage, but perhaps not as fulfilled due to their different personalities.

Here's another thing. Zenaida may have known that Felix would be her last child, but she must have also feared attempting for another one because not only was her life on the life, but the added anxiety that even if she and the infant lived, that the 'Yussupov' curse may take her child away later on. This seemed to be a fear she appeared to have for both her surviving sons, therefore had she had more children, more than likely she would have been suffering over the possible fate of each child. Sad situation all around, and in end she only ended up with one son living past 26.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: loulia on October 16, 2007, 02:38:24 PM
I'm sorry, I follow you a bit out of topic but your post make me thin: birth control exist at this time? I can hardly imagine so except the method which consist in counting the day between periods. It's not a safe method at all. Does anyone know more about it?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Annie on October 16, 2007, 03:15:11 PM
the method which consist in counting the day between periods. It's not a safe method at all.

Worked fine for me!  ;) :-[

Quote
(by ashanti)the added anxiety that even if she and the infant lived, that the 'Yussupov' curse may take her child away later on.

That is a good idea. Maybe she thought the babies had died because of it, and worried any other children might. Then she had to wait and hope it wouldn't take one of her sons, which of course it did, at least by her beliefs. I also think this could be why Felix, Bebe, and Xenia Sfris only had one child each. Tatiana, the latest in line, now has two, hopefully the curse is gone and both will have long happy healthy lives. I think so!
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: loulia on October 16, 2007, 03:43:01 PM
didn't work at all for me! :-[
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 16, 2007, 10:11:34 PM
the method which consist in counting the day between periods. It's not a safe method at all.

Worked fine for me!  ;) :-[

Quote
(by ashanti)the added anxiety that even if she and the infant lived, that the 'Yussupov' curse may take her child away later on.

That is a good idea. Maybe she thought the babies had died because of it, and worried any other children might. Then she had to wait and hope it wouldn't take one of her sons, which of course it did, at least by her beliefs. I also think this could be why Felix, Bebe, and Xenia Sfris only had one child each. Tatiana, the latest in line, now has two, hopefully the curse is gone and both will have long happy healthy lives. I think so!

The saddest thing was it was really getting close to the Yussupov line dying out. While officially the family name died out with Felix, in truth it died with Zenaida who was the last of her line.

Here's a thought...or question rather..

If Tatiana Youssupov had lived long enough to marry and have children, would they have inherited the Yussupov name also?? Or would Nicholas, her father, have only requested the special permission for Zenaida since she was the oldest? Remember he submitted a petition due to the fact he was the last Yussupov, however the request was still pending at the time of his death, so he must have submitted it after Tatiana died, realizing that his only hope for the name to continue would be through his grandsons. Was it possible for both daughters to pass the Yussupov name to their offspring?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 17, 2007, 07:09:31 AM
Mandie and Ex-Princess- of course it's right she had four kids in five years, that's what we're saying happend. The 'big deal' is that Ferrand's book states she had three dead sons before Nicholas was born and that was impossible, unless Zenaida was an unwed teen mother! This is why we were discussing it, and using Felix's quote to back up what really happened. Look back on the last page and you'll see how it started.

I think what happened is that when Felix said his mother had 3 sons before him, two of whom died in infancy, the writer of the book somehow misconstrued that to mean she had 3 dead sons before Nicholas, which was incorrect.

I see, thanks. :)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on May 25, 2008, 07:55:41 PM
I'm sorry, I follow you a bit out of topic but your post make me thin: birth control exist at this time? I can hardly imagine so except the method which consist in counting the day between periods. It's not a safe method at all. Does anyone know more about it?

Yes, birth control did exist at the time. Obviously, the choices weren't as many and varied as they are now, but it did exist. Condoms were available in the late 19th century Europe and so were cervical caps.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Paola on March 24, 2009, 03:30:57 AM
Princess Tatiana Nikolayevna Youssoupoff 1866-1888 is buried at Archangelskoye

Is she buried in the the Yussupov vault there? And is it open to public?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on March 24, 2009, 10:33:25 AM
Princess Tatiana Nikolayevna Youssoupoff 1866-1888 is buried at Archangelskoye

Is she buried in the the Yussupov vault there? And is it open to public?

Tatiana's grave is open to the public. A picture of her grave was posted somewhere on the thread some time ago...I'll try to find it .

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Paola on March 24, 2009, 10:38:46 AM
Thanks ashanti01. I would appreciate and  I would like to see the picture. Iam very interested in Tatiana and her short life and somehow mysterious death.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on April 08, 2009, 06:25:04 PM
ok...sorry about the delay but I couldn't find the pictures of the grave until I remembered I had listed them under my Arkhangleskoie file...

Tatiana Yusupova was buried near the church on the estate.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/A05.jpg)

This is her grave

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/A08.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/A09.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Paola on April 14, 2009, 02:33:03 AM
Thanks ashanti01. It would be really interesting to find out more about Tatiana. Her life and death seems a mystery.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on April 16, 2009, 05:46:49 PM
Tatiana died at the age of 22 and although there have been rumors of suicide, I believe she actually died of typhus or some other common illness in those days. Tatiana was believed for some time to have been the oldest Yusupov daughter, however it was recently clarified that she was actually the younger daughter. It's believed she was named after her mother, Princess Tatiana.

There really isn't very much information on this 'missing' princess, for even some genealogy sites don't name Tatiana in the Yusupov genealogy chart. Its believed that Tatiana, like her mother Tatiana, had delicate health. People of that time seemed to have written only of Zenaida but not of Tatiana, which personally I found very odd. Oddly enough Tatiana died at 22 when you would have believed a girl of her beauty and position would have been married already, yet she died without having married or had children. Another odd factor is the lack of photographs or paintings of Tatiana. There is only two paintings that I know of, however I have yet to come accross any photographs of Tatiana.



(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/zenaidasistertatiana.jpg)
Tatiana as a child. This was posted some time ago by i believe Svetavel

there is a set of pictures which was posted some time ago by Alexander64 which I believe may have Tatiana, Zenaida, and their father, along with Nicholas jr....its just a hunch but since it appears to be a family photo, wouldn't know who else it could it be if its not Tatiana standing next to Nicholas Sr.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/1170776425000161-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: lizkrasnykh on September 05, 2009, 12:33:33 PM
Just some additional information on Princess Tatiana Yussupoff:

Spending several years in Russian archives, working on Felix's documenatl biography, I was surprised to see how little information is available on his aunt Tatiana, who died in 1886. Her destiny was not a subject of my research, but since I began my research from the wedding of Zinaida Yusupoff to Felix Sumarokoff-Elston, I had to read some correspondence of Zinaida related to her youth.

It was very interesting to see that in all family archives there were only 3 pictures of Tatiana, whose family nick name was "Tanyok" or "Aunt Tanyok" (Танек or тетя Танек). One was a portrat of Tatiana in her teen years (published on this forum yearlier) that Zinaida kept all her life in her study in Arkhangelskoe, one picture of Tatiana with her sister and nepfew Nikolai and another one was a photo of Zinaida (8-9 yers old) with her sister in Vienna.

Then one day, in Russian Historical archive I met a historian-amateur, who was trying to find out the reason of such mistery around Tatianas's name. As all girls of her epoch she kept an everyday diary and the strange thing was to see that in her last diary-book there were missing (ripped off) all pages with the notes on the last weeks of her life. That pushed this historian to read her previous diaries during the 1885-1886.
His research only confirmed the idea that Yussupoff's family was surrounded by a mystery.

Apparently Tatiana was madly in love with a young man called Paul, who was living in the nearby estate... (Well, could have it been be handsome Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich?)

Then, everyone in Arkhangelskoe village, who knew the whitnesses of her grave opening by the bolsheviks, said that when the grave was opened there were found not only a woman's body but also a body of a baby (Who could have it been? Her baby brother Boris...or her own child?????)   

The other old-timers of Arkhangelskoe claimed that locals insisted that the young princess drowned in the river...

The only thing I could add from what I read myself from the Yussupoff archives, that whatever was a real reason of Tatiana's death, the day of her death Zinaida always comemmorated by spending whole day in the church.   
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on September 06, 2009, 01:52:42 AM
Very intresting information. Thank you so much for posting on this thread.

I never heard of her grave being opened by the bolsheviks. Why would they open her grave? (Did they remove her body, or is she still buried in Arkhangelskoe?) Still it's very odd that there would have been a body of a child in the grave with her, this sheds even more mystery on Tatiana.

Personally, I have always found the lack of information and photographs of Tatiana very odd. The fact that there are missing (ripped) pages from her diaries during the last weeks of her life, make me believe there was something the family was trying very hard to hide. The cause of death has always been debated between death from illness to her killing herself. The drowing theory I read before but cannot recall where.

Now I'm even more curious about this princess. Who was this 'Paul' she was in love with? What exactly happened in the weeks leading up to her death?

 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: rudy3 on September 06, 2009, 06:30:01 AM
If the information on the grave (born Febr 14th 1868, died June 15th 1888) is right, then Ashanti01's "Tatiana died at the age of 22" and Lizkrasnykh's "died in 1886" are not correct.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: lizkrasnykh on September 06, 2009, 08:22:02 AM
If the information on the grave (born Febr 14th 1868, died June 15th 1888) is right, then Ashanti01's "Tatiana died at the age of 22" and Lizkrasnykh's "died in 1886" are not correct.

Thanks Rudy for pointing it out. True, I messed up years. She did die in 1888.

To answer the previous questions about the grave opening, it's a usual practice during all revolutions... (Russian, French). Poor crowd of all times hoped to find the jewels and gold in the coffins. As for Tatiana, the old village residents claim that both her and Nikolai's bodies were thrown to the nearby river which is going through estate.

Sad, but it was also a common symbol of all revolutions of all times. 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on September 06, 2009, 12:37:01 PM
I had always read her birthyear as being 1866, Tatiana being five years younger than Zenaide. However Rudy, you are correct the grave does appear to say 1868.

How sad for the bodies to have been lost. And all for the possibility of finding gold/jewels in their graves. One would hope the family did not hear of this, it would have been difficult to deal with for any person.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on September 26, 2009, 12:11:06 AM

I found some images of Tatiana's tomb before it was "opened" by the bolsheviks. I must say it was a very beautiful piece.


(http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx311/zenayda1/Capture29-1.jpg)

(http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx311/zenayda1/Capture45-1.jpg)

Does anyone know if the statue on the grave is the same one currently in the Moika palace, or if it's a replica?

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 06, 2009, 01:35:39 AM

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/Capture47.jpg)
Tatiana ( could be Zenaida's & Tatiana's mother, but I'm leaning towards the younger Tatiana)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on October 06, 2009, 05:06:15 AM
If the information on the grave (born Febr 14th 1868, died June 15th 1888) is right, then Ashanti01's "Tatiana died at the age of 22" and Lizkrasnykh's "died in 1886" are not correct.
Personally I think the gravestone reads 1866.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 06, 2009, 10:17:02 AM
I also think it reads 1866 but I can see how it kinda looks like 1868.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: katmaxoz on December 10, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
Zenaida with a painting of her deceased sister Tatiana in the background

(http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/45471/2727579590102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2727579590102753164KFMVKC)

Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 01:44:50 PM
Tatiana had a different hair color than her sister Zinaida, Tatiana's was lighter
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on December 31, 2009, 02:42:32 PM
In the color version I have seen of Tatiana's portrait, her hair is lighter. Dark blond to light brown. Shame we don't have more photographs of her, for she was really a pretty girl.

 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 07, 2010, 02:00:49 PM
Colored version of Tatiana's portrait.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/Youssoupov%20Fam%20Pic/pre1908/tatianayus-1.png)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 07, 2010, 07:29:05 PM

I found some images of Tatiana's tomb before it was "opened" by the bolsheviks. I must say it was a very beautiful piece.


(http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx311/zenayda1/Capture29-1.jpg)

(http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx311/zenayda1/Capture45-1.jpg)

Does anyone know if the statue on the grave is the same one currently in the Moika palace, or if it's a replica?

what happened when her grave was opened?
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 07, 2010, 07:57:10 PM
The tomb had been opened because they had believed the Yusupov's had buried riches with their dead. (Same reason they opened the tomb of Nicholas, Zenaida's son.) According to witness, the bolsheviks were angry at the lack of jewels and gold in the coffin. Sadly, they threw the bodies into the river which runs through the estate. They were never recovered.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 07, 2010, 08:51:57 PM
my god that terrible.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Paola on July 08, 2010, 06:44:38 AM
If they found a baby's body together with Tatiana then could be that she died in childbirth then the family did all do hide this scandal and someone from the family ripped the pages of her last diaries who could perhaps tell who was this "Paul" and much more about Tatiana mysterious death!
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 08, 2010, 08:08:16 AM
There is alot of mystery surrounding Tatiana's death. While officially she died of typhoid, several villagers around the estate swore the princess had drowned. If Tatiana had gotten invovled with a 'Paul' and become pregnant the shame and possible scandal could have been motivation for her to commit sucide. Naturally this is something the family would have wanted to hide and be a reason behind the missing pages from Tatiana's diary. As well as the mystery surrounding Tatiana, and lack of information/photos about her.

Elizabeth Krasnykh who wrote a very long and detailed biography on Felix Yusupov stated she had spoken with another historian who was currenly researching the Yusupov's archives to find out more information about Tatiana. My guess would be this historian should he ever publish his findings is our best bet in finding out more. The Yusupov archives in Arkhangelskoie and in Saint Petersburg and maybe Xenia Sfiris (Felix's grandaughter) are the only three places where any information about Tatiana may be found.  However if the family destroyed all of Tatiana's papers to protect her and their good name, its very possible we may never know the real truth surrounding the death of this young princess.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashdean on July 08, 2010, 11:57:36 AM
I have always thought the mysterious baby might be her brother Boris.....it is not too farfetched to think that the long dead baby may have never properly been buried and it was decided to bury him with the younger sister he had never known....of course he could have been buried with his mother when she had died.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on July 08, 2010, 08:30:42 PM
It is very possible that it was her brother Boris.

If it had been Boris, wouldn't they have marked near the grave that Boris was also buried there?? Perhaps it was an intimate detail known only to the family.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 04, 2010, 08:42:25 AM
Zenaide and sister Tatiana (?). Sorry about the picture, its from a russian documentary about the Yussupov women

(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2163/drgtsrttfg.jpg) (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/drgtsrttfg.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Svetabel on October 04, 2010, 09:14:19 AM
Zenaide and sister Tatiana (?). Sorry about the picture, its from a russian documentary about the Yussupov women



 

That's Zenaida's mother.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 04, 2010, 09:17:33 AM
Really?  she looks very young!. Thanks for the correction and now i can see where Tatiana got the resemblance.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on January 24, 2014, 10:31:10 PM
Original tomb of Princess Tatiana after her death in 1888.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/tatianaorigtomb_zpsb42bd148.jpg)

Shortly after Tatiana's death, her family commissioned Mark Matveyevich Antokolsk to make a tombstone for Tatiana's grave. The result was 'Angel'.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/_416_zps2e72ad11.jpg)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/ARKHANGELSKOIE/35027_rakstit028700_zps56a08033.jpg)

The beautiful headstone remained on the grave, even after it was opened by the Bolshevik's during the revolution. It wasn't until the 1930's that the headstone was moved in order to preserve the work of art. It's rumored to be in the tea house of the estate.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on September 24, 2015, 06:32:40 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/7a/15/d8/7a15d81a36a2217b66e4be9e3edca171.jpg)

Rare photograph of Princess Zenaida and Princess Tatiana Youssoupoff.

Thanks to kantor.forum24.ru for sharing this amazing picture.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 25, 2015, 10:27:00 AM
Here are the rest of the images. courtesy of Elvira Fedorova

https://www.pinterest.com/elvirafedorova1/%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B0-%D1%8E%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0/

Here s my favorite of Tatiana. Such a beautiful girl!

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/62/97/f7/6297f7eb8830d7ca71d4683b05d876ac.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on September 25, 2015, 04:31:36 PM
Very lovely girl. She really resembled her father.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: KiraB on September 26, 2015, 06:16:22 PM
Hi everybody!

I'm Kira and just joined here :)I'm especially interested in the Romanovs and the Yussupovs.My great grandfather was a russian and he was born in St Petersburg in 1887 and belonged to the upper class of that time so he had a great deal of very interesting stories and memories.I'm happy to share his stories for example from Romanovs and Yussupovs.He left his photo collection to me and i will post them here..

best regards Kira
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on February 21, 2016, 01:58:29 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/4e/c5/0d/4ec50d016960c72ff009cda954197580.jpg)
Tatiana
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Maria Sisi on February 21, 2016, 02:09:25 PM
Wow she looks just like one of John Tenniel's illustrations for Alice in Wonderland

(http://wordyenglish.com/alice/i/jt/p20/alice_01b-drink_me.png)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on April 16, 2016, 11:07:02 PM
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/878b59cbc5ecfd0fdcfb2cc68de09297/tumblr_o5c225ztOC1u2cpo1o1_540.jpg)
A personal favorite
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Dru on August 23, 2016, 07:44:29 PM
http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/149391627610 (http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/149391627610)

Princess Tatiana Nikolaevna Yusupova.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on August 27, 2016, 10:48:49 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ea/73/15/ea731511f727fb7b1e7a180dc7e280a7.jpg)
the tomb of Princess Tatiana is no longer bare, a replica of the original angel has been placed on her grave.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: ashanti01 on October 26, 2016, 11:38:52 PM
Three generations of Yusupovs. Prince Nicholas Yusupov with his daughters, Zenaida and Tatiana and his grandson Nicholas. 1887/1888
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/55/76/67/557667e36401d56251ba844aef14aff7.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Dru on March 31, 2017, 01:24:03 PM
http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/159018508785 (http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/159018508785)

Tatiana Nikolaevna Yusupova portrait, in color.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: Dru on September 24, 2017, 01:53:18 PM
http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/165695833785 (http://adini-nikolaevna.tumblr.com/image/165695833785)

Princess Tatiana as a child.
Title: Re: Princess Tatiana Yusupova, younger sister of Zenaida Yusupova
Post by: YH on March 17, 2018, 04:09:39 AM
Princess Tatiana Yusupova 1866-1888.
Yusupov Heritage (YH)