Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: lexi4 on June 14, 2005, 12:11:41 AM

Title: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on June 14, 2005, 12:11:41 AM
Just finished reading the book A Princess in the Family. It is a very short book and an easy read. Although very little information is given about Granny Alina. I wish the author would have shared more of his memories of the woman. But anyway, it was interesting. I didn't want to start this topic under claimants because Granny Alina never made a claim. I doubt that she really was GDMarie, but she did live the life I would imagine that a GD would have lived had any of them survived the cellar.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Denise on June 14, 2005, 08:24:27 AM
So, is there info in the book about her escape, etc?  Or is the book only about Alina in South Africa?  I am interested in getting this book, but if it is only reminisces about Alina, but nothing about the so-called escape, I'll pass.

Denise
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2005, 10:05:29 AM
This is something I'd like to know more about, but like Denise said only if it offers new info.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: lexi4 on June 14, 2005, 01:13:10 PM
It is sadly disappointing in details of her life. It mostly talks about the author's efforts to determine whether she was one of the GD's or not. He tried to have DNA testing, but it couldn't be done because of the condition of the body. I just like reading about the pretenders. Although I must make it clear Granny ALena never did make a claim that she was a GD. Like I said, it is very lacking in details of her life or what kind of person she was. I had no idea what to expect so I bought it to see.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 12, 2005, 07:23:00 PM
Here's a website about a women that claimed she was the Grand Duchess Marie :-/


~Anya~
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 12, 2005, 09:02:37 PM
This is the famous "Granny Alena" and there is already two threads to discuss her case in the "Survivor Forum". Very interesting, but the info is not clear and I found it inconclusive...Some people who read the book feel deceived about it...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on August 13, 2005, 06:13:35 AM
If you really want to know something about Granny Alina, search in the documantry 'A lost Princess'.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 13, 2005, 02:34:56 PM
Thanks, how nice for a change to get to explore other stories besides AA.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: sailor_of_standart on August 23, 2005, 10:26:44 PM
I have to say that the story of Granny Alina is utter rubbish it's like the case of Anna Anderson.  AA and GA both have similar looks to OTMA but they are not them.  I feel sorry for the poor fella who had so much extensive tests to prove that it is Maria.  
The face proves it.  
Is it true they had to use Prince Phillip (the queen's consort) as DNA to help find if the DNA matched the bone of Granny Alina?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: sailor_of_standart on August 31, 2005, 11:39:05 PM
In the case of Granny Alina, I don't believe she was Maria.

Look at the faces.  Alina has different shade of hair, her eyebrows are not the same shape as Maria.  Her eyes are not the same size.  Hdr chin is also a different shape to Maria.  Also why would Maria change her name to Alina?  
The poor South African fellow who believes his granny was Maria is a fool.  
When they dug up Alina's bones they could not match the DNA to that of Prince Phillip (he is the direct great nephew to Alix.).  It turned out inconclusive cause of the dirt and decomposition of the bones.  
Did Granny Alina speak just Russian and English??
The whole family mainly spoke English.
I just don't believe Granny Alina was Maria.

(http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/pr_maria_granny.jpg) Granny Alina

(http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/mahospital.jpg) Maria with Anastasia.

I picked a pic that had Maria wearing a hat so you can see the differences.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: SadAngel on September 01, 2005, 11:45:07 AM
I love that pic. Maria looks beautiful and healthy, she had always a clever face... Anastasia also looks pretty.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on September 02, 2005, 07:30:10 AM
Well i do believe Granny Aline wás Maria, but you know, everyone has his own thoughts  ;).
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 10, 2005, 06:48:48 PM
I'm not sure about this case...However, you must compare lots of photographies to conclude is a person is or not who claims she is. If you does only a comparison of a single photo, results could not be conclusive. In some photos, I'm not like me at all... :D. And of course, those comparations will be made by experts and anthropologic seniors. And of course DNA could help, but in Romanov case I'm very suspicious of it.

YEAH...I know that some people would be very angry to me for saying this...(Hehehe)  ;D

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Laura_ on November 12, 2005, 06:48:59 PM
she definetly was not Mashka...NO
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 14, 2005, 10:36:23 AM
How many people said they were which Romanov. It becomes hilarious.This woman wasn't Marie. Anyway, this belongs on a different thread.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 14, 2005, 07:18:54 PM
I'm not very convinced about Granny Alina being Maria, but I don't like the "anti-survivors theories" attitude. When I believe in a claimant or don't believe , I always give my reasons of it. I think that only writting: "No; she wasn't Maria", "This woman is not our dear Maria" and so, doesn't help in an historical board. It would be the same if me, as a AA supporter would write: "AA was Anastasia" or "There is no doubt; she was Anastasia and nobody can think otherwise without being a fool".

We are in an historical forum...So...Give reasons for or againts an argument. "No" and "Yes" are not useful here.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: lovy on December 10, 2005, 10:14:51 PM
granny alina was not maria, nor was anna anderson anastasia. no members of the imperial family survived. two bodies are missing from the grave and they are maria and aleksei. the reason why they are missing is because their bodies were burnt while the others were buried.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Rachael89 on December 11, 2005, 07:45:53 AM
This is going to sound like it goes on the survivor board but oh well, so does the rest of the thread in general!

Lovy, it has been found to be impossible to completely reduce the body of one human (let alone two) to ash in the conditions and time that was vailiable to Yurovksy et all. So either their remians were buried seperately from the main pit (by far the most likely) or one or both survived (very, very unlikely, but there is an itsy bitzy chance.)

Rachael
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: imperial angel on December 12, 2005, 10:32:36 AM
I think that who survived and who didn't is a very fundamental question of the Romanovs and it is important to discuss this, but always on the right board, of course. I think it is important to give reasons why you say something, but then it is common sense that it is not likely that any member of the family survived. And that, of course, takes care of the survivor issue. But everyone can have their own opinions if they want.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on December 31, 2005, 03:50:10 PM
She looks much like Marie in my opiniion, but that's not always a reason to believe in someone. If the bones found in Ekaterinburg were those of the Romanovs, than according to the evidence Dr. William Maples provided, Marie was among the nine bodies found.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on January 03, 2006, 05:59:27 AM
That's Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 03, 2006, 10:48:40 AM
shure she might look like Marie. but like calebGmoney said. if doctors found the bones of her than she obviosly died with her family.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on January 03, 2006, 03:50:08 PM
Uhm, Emily, the're we're two investigations done on their bones, one said that anastasia was missing, and one said that Maria was missing.

But the one we can trust is the one that tell's us Maria is missing.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Holly on January 03, 2006, 05:06:26 PM
I think it was the Russian investigators who said it was Maria missing. The Americans said it was Anastasia. Personally, I don't think any of the claimants that we know of were Maria or Anastasia. None of them look like the Grand Duchess that they claim to be. Wouldn't you think if someone really was one of the Grand Duchesses we would at least recognize them? I don't think any of them survived. Probably burned and buried somewhere seperate. I wish we could continue searching for them.  :'(
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 03, 2006, 05:20:04 PM
Quote
Uhm, Emily, the're we're two investigations done on their bones, one said that anastasia was missing, and one said that Maria was missing.

But the one we can trust is the one that tell's us Maria is missing.

But you must also take into the account that Russian scientists did not want Anastasia to be missing. They wanted to disprove the Western myths. You must also take into account that the Russian scientists only concluded that Anastasia was among the bodies by a method of matching a skeleton with a face. However, the Americans and Dr. Maples not only noticed that Anastasia was the shortest of the Grand Duchesses, but that all of the vertebrae had rings fully conected on them. In a girl just turned 17, you would most likely not see rings connected at all, while if they were, that would most likely not be fully connected. So in my opinion, the evidence clearly points clearly to the missing body being that of Anastasia. Of course, I do have my doubts about these being the authentic bones of Nicholas II, but if they truly are, then Marie is probably among them.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Holly on January 03, 2006, 06:35:55 PM
I agree with you Caleb. But, I do think these are the remains of the IF. What are the odds of finding a grave that matches the descriptions of their murderers, and  the bodies of the people matching the descriptions of the victims??? I don't see how it can't be them.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 03, 2006, 07:13:22 PM
Quote
I agree with you Caleb. But, I do think these are the remains of the IF. What are the odds of finding a grave that matches the descriptions of their murderers, and  the bodies of the people matching the descriptions of the victims??? I don't see how it can't be them.

Well, the fact is that two bodies are missing, so therefore it's not true that they would match the physical descriptions exactly. And of course, so many people were being killed during the revolution. Those bones could be anyone. Although testing by Dr. Peter Gill and Dr. Mary-Claire King put that doubt to rest when they concluded that the mtDNA of 4 of the females matched that of Prince Philip exactly. However, Dr. Knight and others think that a match like that is really not likely with old decayed bones. To put this theory to the test, Grand Duchess Elizabeth's finger which had been held in a wooden box when Ella's grave was opened in 1982 failed to match the DNA of her OWN SISTER! Then a hankerchief with Nicholas's blood on it from the 19th century failed to match the DNA of the Tsar himself. If this isn't contradicting each other then I don't know what it is. I don't know what this says about one of the two sets of DNA analysis (those done in the early 90's and those conducted recently). But I'm not going to make up my mind until more DNA analysis is done.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Lanie on January 04, 2006, 02:27:03 AM
The finger was not Ella's (we have no clue who it was - I think someone said Varvara?), and the handkerchief had been manhandled to hell and back.

Course anyone who believes AA=AN will not relent so why am I saying this?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Holly on January 04, 2006, 09:18:23 AM
Thats true Lanie!  ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on January 05, 2006, 08:38:50 AM
Quote
But you must also take into the account that Russian scientists did not want Anastasia to be missing. They wanted to disprove the Western myths. You must also take into account that the Russian scientists only concluded that Anastasia was among the bodies by a method of matching a skeleton with a face. However, the Americans and Dr. Maples not only noticed that Anastasia was the shortest of the Grand Duchesses, but that all of the vertebrae had rings fully conected on them. In a girl just turned 17, you would most likely not see rings connected at all, while if they were, that would most likely not be fully connected. So in my opinion, the evidence clearly points clearly to the missing body being that of Anastasia. Of course, I do have my doubts about these being the authentic bones of Nicholas II, but if they truly are, then Marie is probably among them.


Did you actually know that skeleton that was found was very short? That couldn't be Maria, Maria was wasn't short she was tall, she was maybe even tall as Tatiana.
So, I think we most conclude that Anastasia is indeed among the dead, on that night.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on January 05, 2006, 09:22:06 AM
Caleb,
once again you just dont do your research. It has been explained over and over that there is a very good chance that the finger came from Sister Varvara, Ella's companion, who's body was in the mine with hers. They were both dressed identically and it could have been a simple switch of identification. Second, there is no stable chain of possession of the finger, which was kept in a small box and trotted out hundreds of times and handled by hundreds of strangers.

Really, your genuine lack of understanding HOW dna testing works and the science underneath it is appalling...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 05, 2006, 04:54:33 PM
Quote

Did you actually know that skeleton that was found was very short? That couldn't be Maria, Maria was wasn't short she was tall, she was maybe even tall as Tatiana.
So, I think we most conclude that Anastasia is indeed among the dead, on that night.

No. The bodies were all too tall to be Anastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 05, 2006, 04:57:02 PM
Quote
Caleb,
once again you just dont do your research. It has been explained over and over that there is a very good chance that the finger came from Sister Varvara, Ella's companion, who's body was in the mine with hers. They were both dressed identically and it could have been a simple switch of identification. Second, there is no stable chain of possession of the finger, which was kept in a small box and trotted out hundreds of times and handled by hundreds of strangers.

Really, your genuine lack of understanding HOW dna testing works and the science underneath it is appalling...
Sorry Forum Admin, but plainly, you do not know whose body the finger came from. Nor does thinking that the finger could have come from Elizabeth have anything to do with understanding DNA testing. All I stated was that I could not be 100% certain of the bone's authenticity, I never declared they were not, yet that didn't stop all of you from attacking me.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on January 05, 2006, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
Sorry Forum Admin, but plainly, you do not know whose body the finger came from. Nor does thinking that the finger could have come from Elizabeth have anything to do with understanding DNA testing. All I stated was that I could not be 100% certain of the bone's authenticity, I never declared they were not, yet that didn't stop all of you from attacking me.

Lord you aren't even capable of critical thinking?? First you say "You still can't explain why you think Ella's finger was not her's, despite that fact that it obviously was."...Now, Look at your one statement "plainly, you do not knw whose body the finger came from." EXACTLY THE POINT. NO ONE knows who's body the finger came from.  THAT nullifies the use of the finger for dna testing completely as it is not a reliable source.  SO stop citing the testing the finger dna as evidence of ANYTHING.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on January 06, 2006, 12:49:04 AM
Quote
No. The bodies were all too tall to be Anastasia.


My information was the skeleton was short.

And, indeed Holly, Thank for Forum Administrator!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 06, 2006, 04:31:51 PM
Quote
Lord you aren't even capable of critical thinking?? First you say "You still can't explain why you think Ella's finger was not her's, despite that fact that it obviously was."...Now, Look at your one statement "plainly, you do not knw whose body the finger came from." EXACTLY THE POINT. NO ONE knows who's body the finger came from.  THAT nullifies the use of the finger for dna testing completely as it is not a reliable source.  SO stop citing the testing the finger dna as evidence of ANYTHING.
I think this is very rude and all I did was make a suggestion that it was probably Ella's finger. I did not deserve to be attacked.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on January 06, 2006, 05:18:27 PM
How utterly disingenuous and irresposilbe of you Caleb to go shouting to high heaven "that the finger IS that of GD Ella" over and over and insisting on how vaild the testing is as a result, then when called to task, you retreat to a pathetic "I suggested it probably was..." Sorry pal, but in here you're held accountable.

Further Caleb, there is no "new" evidence about the reliability of the mtDNA testing being questioned. As I wrote elsewhere you are taking a four year old statment by Greg out of context. It is not new, and the reliablilty of the DNA testing is NOT questioned.

THE SUBJECT THAT THE DNA TESTS ARE NOT RELIABLE IS CLOSED UNTIL/UNLESS A PEER REVIEW SCIENTIFIC PAPER IN SUPPORT OF THE UNRELIABLITY OF SUCH TESTING ACCOMPANIES THE STATEMENT. Clear?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 06, 2006, 05:38:47 PM
Quote

My information was the skeleton was short.


Yes, but this information is clearly not true, and even if it was, I don't think it matches Dr. William Maple's conclusion of the vertebrae.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 06, 2006, 08:09:20 PM
Quote
Yes, but this information is clearly not true, and even if it was, I don't think it matches Dr. William Maple's conclusion of the vertebrae.


Caleb,
 With the theory of the vertebrae (the fusion and the rings) what you must realize that a person does not automatically stop growing when they reach their 18th birthday.  There is unfortunately an age window so large it could contain both Anastasia and Marie.  While conclusions drawn from vertebrae analyzation are certainly helpful they cannot be totally reliable especially when the tests are trying to determine the difference between people of such close age as Marie and Anastasia were and in such a critial age period.  
 But, I must admit I only know the basics of this sort of testing/analyzation and not the specifics.  Any docs, anthropologists or archeologists on this board who know more about it?
- Liz
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 07, 2006, 09:51:01 AM
Quote

Caleb,
  With the theory of the vertebrae (the fusion and the rings) what you must realize that a person does not automatically stop growing when they reach their 18th birthday.  There is unfortunately an age window so large it could contain both Anastasia and Marie.  While conclusions drawn from vertebrae analyzation are certainly helpful they cannot be totally reliable especially when the tests are trying to determine the difference between people of such close age as Marie and Anastasia were and in such a critial age period.  
  But, I must admit I only know the basics of this sort of testing/analyzation and not the specifics.  Any docs, anthropologists or archeologists on this board who know more about it?
 - Liz
According to Dr. William Maples, he has never seen a case where the vertebrae of a girl who has not reached the age of 18 did not show some immaturity in the vertebrae. He also stated that the skeletons of the other girls were all too tall to be Anastasia. When looking at photographs, you'll see that she was easily the shortest of the girls. Marie was actually pretty tall near the end. In my personal opinion, this is far more convincing than comparing photographs with skulls.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 11, 2006, 02:31:30 PM
Quote
Yes.



Uh-huh.  Anyways.  Dr. Maples is one expert, just one, and no one truly interested in science ever stops at just listening to one person's 'testimony.'  It is impossible to put a human being into a timetable like Maples does.  He also has a limited range of experience (dead people, I believe) and I would like to see him collaborate with some actual physicians and other bone experts (Lord help me, I can't remember the correct words) before proclaiming to the world that at the age of 18 all growth stops and you can always go by the bones and therefore the skeleton in the grave is Anastasia.

Also, because there is no real photographic evidence there is nothing to support the idea that at the very end Anastasia was still the shortest.  She may have had a growth spurt while in captivity.  Seems like she was due one...  
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: calebGmoney on January 11, 2006, 10:58:54 PM
Quote


Uh-huh.  Anyways.  Dr. Maples is one expert, just one, and no one truly interested in science ever stops at just listening to one person's 'testimony.'  It is impossible to put a human being into a timetable like Maples does.  He also has a limited range of experience (dead people, I believe) and I would like to see him collaborate with some actual physicians and other bone experts (Lord help me, I can't remember the correct words) before proclaiming to the world that at the age of 18 all growth stops and you can always go by the bones and therefore the skeleton in the grave is Anastasia.

Also, because there is no real photographic evidence there is nothing to support the idea that at the very end Anastasia was still the shortest.  She may have had a growth spurt while in captivity.  Seems like she was due one...  
But yet the only one concluding that Marie is missing is Dr. Abramov.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Robby on January 12, 2006, 12:34:19 AM
I really believe Anastasia lies in her grave with her family, all the way from 17th of july 1918.

And I don't believe in Anna Anderson her story is very unbelievable (my opinion!).
It's just such a strange, almost fictional, story what she told, what should have happended that night.
I really think she was a liar, and if she did was Anastasia why did she never spoke Russian? (Answer because she couldn't, not because she didn't wanted to speak it)
Trash story of Anderson!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 12, 2006, 09:17:19 AM
Quote
But yet the only one concluding that Marie is missing is Dr. Abramov.


So you have a head to head clash of scientists.  Now it comes down to thoroughly investigating each of their claims and getting information from other experts in the fields.  The arguments you need to begin with are largely presented here on various boards.  

I for one, having looked at both doctors have to discredit Maples simply because of his single mindedness when it comes to bone growth and rings.  He's created an absolute where there shouldn't be one.  

Now you have to come up with your own conclusion using critical thinking.  
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 12, 2006, 04:27:24 PM
Quote

Dr. Maples is one expert, just one, and no one truly interested in science ever stops at just listening to one person's 'testimony.'  It is impossible to put a human being into a timetable like Maples does.  He also has a limited range of experience (dead people, I believe) and I would like to see him collaborate with some actual physicians and other bone experts (Lord help me, I can't remember the correct words) before proclaiming to the world that at the age of 18 all growth stops and you can always go by the bones and therefore the skeleton in the grave is Anastasia.
  


Dr Maples won't be collaborating with anyone any time soon, he died about 5 years ago... But I agree with your assessment T_Liz, when it comes to human biology, variations can be significant.

P.S. I can tell you for a fact that I grew at least two inches between the ages of 17 and 20!  
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Kimberly on January 12, 2006, 04:29:57 PM
Caleb, the blood on the handkerchief was highly contaminated due to over exposure to handling. Thats why it didnot match.(in answer to reply #23)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 12, 2006, 11:49:19 PM
Quote
How in the world do you conclude the Anna never spoke Russian? Do you discredit the nurses at Dalldorf as well as the fact that she clearly understood the Russian expert who spoke to her during her years in Untelenghart? She may have replied in German, but clearly understood it. This is yet another myth created to discredit poor Natsya. I don't want to be rude when I ask this, but just how much research have done into Anna Anderson? Please answer honestly.


Caleb - I am now warning you - you have been rude to the FA and now you are being insulting to yet another poster. Kindly remain civil while posting.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 13, 2006, 02:13:06 PM
Quote

Dr Maples won't be collaborating with anyone any time soon, he died about 5 years ago...  


Whoops!  Has anyone who worked with him published anything lately?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 26, 2007, 06:03:42 AM
Hey!

I´m looking for some pictures of Granny Alina - I know she wasn't Maria. I tried several old topic, but the links are not functional anymore. Could someone help me, please? And the site A princess in the family doesn't work anymore. Or is it anywhere else on the web?

Thanks
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on November 26, 2007, 09:50:49 AM
this is the only one I can find

(http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/pr_maria_granny.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 26, 2007, 01:57:47 PM
Thanks Annie!

If this is the only picture they could provide.....hmpf.....
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Amanda_Misha on November 29, 2007, 07:10:26 PM
VelkokneznaMaria:
In this subject of the forum I found two photos of Granny Alina  (brought by Robby):

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,3741.30.html

And I thought that perhaps it would like to see them:)
Greetings to all :)


Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 01, 2007, 02:52:30 AM
Thank you so much!!!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 14, 2007, 04:19:19 PM
eh, this lady remsembles Maria somewhat, then again lots of people do... ???
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 04, 2008, 09:55:39 AM
I know there were about 53 Maria claimants.

But does anybody know, who they were? I mean, why did they claim to be Maria or what happened to them later?
I know about Alina and some Maria Martí.

Does anyone know some other names?

Thank you.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Kimberly on January 04, 2008, 10:05:39 AM
This might help you;
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,5979.0.html (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,5979.0.html)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 04, 2008, 10:52:15 AM
I read all the posts and to tell the truth it didn´t help much:)

But thank you for your effort nontheless:)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on January 26, 2009, 04:27:53 AM
this is the only one I can find

(http://www.romanov-memorial.com/Pic/pr_maria_granny.jpg)

Smaller eyes, indeed and not as full-lipped as Maria.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: gemellibru on February 01, 2009, 12:24:12 PM
I have only 2 photos of granny Alena! you?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 02, 2009, 04:19:09 PM
I know there were about 53 Maria claimants.

But does anybody know, who they were? I mean, why did they claim to be Maria or what happened to them later?
I know about Alina and some Maria Martí.

Does anyone know some other names?

Thank you.

Royal impostors of the murdered Romanovs had to choose the younger ones for several reasons.

First of all, many people change in appearance from adolescence to adulthood - enough so that any dissimilarities between impostor and real (murdered) Romanov could be more easily explained.

Second, most of the older murder victims had family or friends (who survived the Bolsheviks) who would have known them well enough that it would have been pointless for an impostor to try to pass them off as a dead Romanov. Actually, this was also true of Anastasia, but for reasons unknown no one thought to ask her cousin Dmitri (to whom she was quite close) or her mother's friend Anna Virubova (ditto) if AA was ANR.

Third, I think the murder of Imperial children was particularly difficult for people to accept in the 1920's. So, even though more common might have otherwise prevailed, I think some people really wanted to believe that one of the Emperor's children survived.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 20, 2010, 12:17:12 AM
Hey guys,

I have joined a Romanov group on FB and some desperate keeps insisting that this Carmen Marti Juanola is the grand-daughter of Nicky and Alix.  Birthed from either Maria or Anastasia.

No matter how I politely put that the entire family was murdered that night and it was made sure all those that were killed were indeed dead.  This Desperate keeps insisting that this "Carmen" is indeed the grand-daughter of Nicky and Alix, because of DNA.

Hey they even had pictures of the recorded results.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 20, 2010, 05:33:08 AM
i adm a FB group about the romanovs. I ban all those looneys cause the only thing they do is exasperate other members and make a sad show.

BTW, how expensive is to have a sample of a Romanov DNA to compare with our DNA?. I ve seen a few people getting DNA fron Nicholas`s remains and they make it look so easy to get those samples
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Forum Admin on October 20, 2010, 09:20:56 AM
I've banned them all from here as well.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 20, 2010, 02:43:36 PM
BTW, how expensive is to have a sample of a Romanov DNA to compare with our DNA?. I ve seen a few people getting DNA fron Nicholas`s remains and they make it look so easy to get those samples

My guess is that they don't have the actual DNA, but have a fairly good analysis of NAOTMAA's DNA due to the published DNA testing of their remains.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 20, 2010, 02:47:01 PM
A lady in facebook has said she got a DNA sample of one of Nicholas ii`s teeth , thats why i wondered how they get those samples so easily.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 20, 2010, 11:57:59 PM
I know it's so weird what people will do to get attention.  Anywho this desperate even made a website about this Carmen Marti and Maria.

http://www.mariaromanov.net46.net/  The language is Spanish.   Even has comparsion photos.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2010, 04:15:14 AM
So I have uploaded these pictures that the Desperate keeps insisting is concrete evidence.   Love to know what  you guys make of it.

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/71766_169883499693933_100000168515138_633790_5925118_n.jpg)
Olga N and Carmen Marti

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/67329_169878336361116_100000168515138_633764_21911_n.jpg)
Olga A and Carmen Marti

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/67197_169892429693040_100000168515138_633808_3659289_n.jpg)
Young Nicholas and Carmen's son David

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/71614_169880726360877_100000168515138_633772_5428216_n.jpg)
Baby Carmen with supposedly the double headed Imperial Eagle in background.


Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2010, 04:19:12 AM
(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/67659_168882853127331_100000168515138_625744_3521455_n.jpg)

"DNA" report

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/72484_169905073025109_100000168515138_633903_4268075_n.jpg)
Internet Article

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/73489_169904579691825_100000168515138_633901_7303507_n.jpg)
Newspaper Article with what Carmen Marti looks today.

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/72183_168874883128128_100000168515138_625715_2997207_n.jpg)
Screencap of some weird look-alike meter.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 21, 2010, 05:26:48 AM
I look like mata hari o i must be her descendant...ha!. I saw that age and the video some relative of this woman uploeaded on youtube about how the grave of MAria Marti was destroyed. Some crazy looney relative of her is posting the link of that webpage on facebook too.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2010, 05:34:51 AM
Are you serious Katenka lol.  LINK please.

This guy is still going on about this woman being related to NAOTMAA.   Pfft.   He even called one person objecting his ideas as a lunatic.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 21, 2010, 05:41:58 AM
Here s the link of the facebook group with the loooney posting that the romanovs are his family

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Romanovs/150196918980

i cant find the link to the video =(

Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2010, 05:44:13 AM
That's okay hun.

I'm on the group The Romanov Friends on FB. 
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on October 21, 2010, 05:52:15 AM
Hey Katenka

That guy is the same guy saying that Carmen Marti is the grand-daughter,  I see now that little boy in the pic is him.  So silly of me.  What a loser he is for thinking he is related.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 21, 2010, 05:57:49 AM
I cant find the group you mentioned =(. And yes, well...the wolrd is full of looneys.Thanks god he was banned forever from here
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Magdalena on October 21, 2010, 08:44:51 AM
Ha, Katenka you know - the group that you gave us the link to uses my photomanipulated images without asking me if they can use them. LOVELY.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 21, 2010, 08:46:58 AM
Ya know...there s no group about NAOTMAA without colored (and mostly taken with no permission) pictures. There are one of Nicholas II with one colorized by you as default image ¬¬
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 22, 2010, 08:12:26 AM
The looney loo has posted again in the romanov family group on facebook

http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Romanovs/150196918980

So ..maria marti ""was"" Maria or Anastasia?. Come on, man....learn to lie properly
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on November 07, 2010, 09:46:21 AM
Seriously. That wedding picture of Marie on that Spanish site was obviously photoshoped.  ::) And she never became a nurse! Are those nurse photos even of Maria?  ???
Some people are just crazy.  ::) >:(  :o
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Justine on November 07, 2010, 03:18:45 PM

(http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy227/rosieposieAP/71614_169880726360877_100000168515138_633772_5428216_n.jpg)
Baby Carmen with supposedly the double headed Imperial Eagle in background.




where do they see the Imperial Eagle I cannot imagine...

it's amazing how many people still believe in such rubbish.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 07, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
Lol, "the imperial eagle" could just well be interpreted as a bagpipe or perhaps the arms of the Duchy of Cleves. Is this Anne of Cleves's secret love child!!!???
:-)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Cleves_Arms.svg/150px-Cleves_Arms.svg.png)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on November 07, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
It looks more like the "Loch Ness" monster!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 07, 2010, 08:44:26 PM
It looks more like the "Loch Ness" monster!

Now, let's keep this nice and blazoned! **Langued gules in cheek** We are after all talking about somebody claiming to be the daughter of a porphyrogene armiger. So you mean a dragon naiant? :-)
(I can't believe all these are English words! It's such a great language that people won't know words in their own native tongue but still can't claim you don't speak English!)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 07, 2010, 11:20:52 PM
So you mean a dragon naiant? :-)
Make that a serpent ondoyant!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on November 09, 2010, 08:47:55 AM
As interesting as this information on arms and the words that describe them is, I think we should stick with the "claimants" here.

To everyone, please don't change the subject title.  That makes the post look like a new topic and since it is not and is part of another thread, that make is hard to find.

This change of subject title can also happen when we as moderators "merge" two threads.  If we don't put through a "change of title" then the posts can be in the same thread but have different titles.

Anyway, changing the subject title mid thread makes it confusing so please don't do it.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 09, 2010, 08:56:55 AM
Thank you and thanks for get rid of this David guy who made (again) a new account just for trolling. You cant image of how many Facebook groups this guy has been banned!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on November 11, 2010, 08:54:58 AM
OK - I know that this is going no where.

I am simply going to reiterate the rules.  Do not change the title of the thread when posting.  There are several good reason why not to, but the best is that FA says not to and so do I.

I tried to be nice. 
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 14, 2010, 06:43:10 PM
he got banned from that group and in fact came back  here to say he was Maria OR Anastasia's`s grand kid. I got off from that group since it got loaded by claimants and the owner believed in every single of them.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: rosieposie on December 15, 2010, 02:00:17 PM
I know right,  I put in a few harsh words to the Claiment  and the owner of the group was "Don't be mean, he might be telling the truth".     I just felt like rolling my eyes and saying to her "No he isn't and he is clogging the boards with his rubbish." 
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Alixz on December 15, 2010, 02:04:02 PM
I just logged on today after spending a few weeks away from AP.  So I was surprised that someone officially changed the heading of this thread. Grrr.

I changed the title of the thread and tied all of the supposed claimants together.  That is the point of this sub forum.  That is why it is called "Myths and Legends of Survivors". 

We know that this claim is false and so it belongs with all of the other false claims.

Alixz  :-)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: TimM on December 26, 2010, 06:43:56 PM
The Flat Earth Society lives, it seems.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Kurt Steiner on February 03, 2011, 04:09:06 AM
Here, in Catalonia, no one paid too much attention to that claim related to María Martí and the few comments I heard about her grandson, from people that know him (to which degree I can't tell, I'm sorry), are not quite nice. Apparently, he has some dellusions of grandeur and, judging from what I've heard, he has lost his marbles, poetically speaking. The last thing I read about that guy was a funny thing: he claimed that he was the rightful heir to some of the titles of SAR Felipe de Asturias, and made such a fuss explaining why those titles belong to them that made me the impression that he had not the slightest clue about the topic he was talking about.

A sad thing, from my point of view.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Marie Nikolaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 14, 2012, 12:53:39 PM
Two more "Marias":

1) Averees Iacowelly: She was mentioned in a brief way at the thread of photos of claimants in this same section but here's a bit longer "biography"

Died at 1979. An unknown woman that called herself Averees Iacowelly appeared in a Polish village on January, 23th, 1919. All her body was covered with scars and wounds, and according with a later medical evidence, they all were serious enough.
Averis  refused to talk about his past, which led her neighbour to the assumption that in front of her Grand Duchess Anastasia , survived from  the Ekaterinburg execution. Immediately the whole village knew the "discovery", for scaping to the gossip, Yakovelli hurried to move further into Poland, but in the new village, which she has chosen for his residence, she was immediately "identified" as the  Grand Duchess Maria.
It is unclear what happened to Yakovelli over the next two years, according to rumors, after its "incognito" was exposed, she attempted to return to Russia, but eventually in 1921 married a Polish soldier named Karlk Dyanogy and she gave birth to a baby boy named Nicholas.
In 1956 , Nicholas Dyanogy (the son of this woman) died of hemophilia , this completely demoralized her. Eyewitnesses recalled that she had often repeated that "the whole family was killed, every one," which was seen as a belated recognition of the "royal origin."
In 1965 Averis widowed, and married for the second time in a merchant named Giovanni Ricci, and went with him  to Switzerland. She died of tuberculosis at 1979.  At her grave there is the inscription "Maria Romanova, 1899-1979." A few supporters have managed to track down a few pages from a diary kept Averis, which she kept during her stay in Poland and expose his handwriting examination. According to their assurances, the handwriting of Averees was identical to the handwriting of Grand Duchess Maria.


2) Rosella Digoya. She was mentioned on the claimants list of Russian verssion of wikipedia, I wonder who was she, this is the first time that I read her name. There's no information about her on that site, all information is welcome!