Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Iberian Royal Families => Topic started by: cimbrio on June 18, 2005, 04:55:03 AM

Title: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: cimbrio on June 18, 2005, 04:55:03 AM
These are Queen Maria II's children. I'd like to know about them and also about her two husbands, Auguste de beauharnais (1810-1835), whom she amrried the year he died, and Ferdinand (later Fernando II) of Saxe-Coburg-Koháry, Queen Victoria's first cousin (1816-1885). Their children were:

-Pedro V of Portugal (1837-1861), died a widower. He ahd married Stephanie of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen (1837-1859). Did she ever miscarry or become pregnant? I know she was young but... They both died of tiphoid didn't they?
-Luis I (1838-1889), whose son and grandson were murdered in 1908.
-Joao Maria Fernano Pedro de Alcantara Miguel Raphael Gabriel Leopoldo Carlos Antonio Gregorio Francisco d'Assis Borja Gonzaga Felix (1842-1861), died the same year as his father the King. What of? What did he look like, and what was he like?
-Maria Anna (1843-1884), died aged 40 after giving birth to 8 children in 15 years.
-Antonia (1845-1913), mother of the future Ferdinand I of Romania.
-Fernao Maria Luiz Miguel Raphael Gabriel Gonzaga Francisco d'Assis Antonio Apollinario (1846-1861) also died in 1861! What of?
-Augusto (1847-1889) died unmarried.
Any info at all on this not very happy family? Pics?

Thanks D~
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 24, 2005, 03:16:23 PM
Maria's first husband was Augustus Charles Eugene Napoleon de Beauharnais (1810-1835). He was the eldest son of Eugene de Beauharnais, Duke of Leuchtenberg (adopted and step-son of Napoleon), and Princess Augusta Amalia of Bavaria.  Augustus sister, Amelie Auguste, was the stepmother of Maria, having married Maria's father, Pedro I, Emperor of Brazil, in 1829. I remember reading somewhere that Augustus got sick either on his way to Portugal or shortly after arriving there. His death was a cruel blow to Maria, as I believe she was very much in love with him. His death was also a bitter disappointment to the de Beauharnais clan.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 24, 2005, 03:58:13 PM
Maria's second husband was Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg-Kohary (1816-1885), son of Prince Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg (who was uncle to both QV and Albert) and his wife the very rich Hungarian Princess Antonia Kohary.  Maria married Ferdinand in 1836, after having been widowed at age 16 the previous year. Queen Victoria and Albert from this point on maintained close relations with the Portuguese Royal Family. Unlike his cousin Albert, who was only made a Prince Consort, Ferdinand was made titular King of Portugal, reigning with his wife as Ferdinand II.  After Maria II died in childbirth in 1853, Ferdinand was later married to an Elizabeth Hensler (in 1869).

As for Maria's children:

Peter V and Stephanie: I've heard of no pregnancies of this couple, Peter I know died of typhoid, I'm not sure of Stephanie. Both died so young, Peter in 1861 and Stephanie in 1859.

Louis, succeeded his brother and married Maria Pia of Italy (dau. of Victor E. II), they had two sons:   Charles, who along with his eldest son Louis Philip were assassinated in 1908; and Alfonso, who married a Nevada Hayes (an American, I think).

John, Duke of  Beja  1842-1861, I believe he also died of typhoid.

Mary Anne married King George of Saxony and had a large family.

Antonia married Leopold of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. Among her descendants are King Ferdinand of Roumania and his brood. She had another son, William, who was the father of Augusta Victoria of Hohenzollern who married the last and exiled king of Portugal, Emanuel II. They remained childless and Emanuel died fairly young in England.

Ferdinand 1846-1861. He would have only been 15 at his death.  I'm not sure, but I believe I've read that there was a typhoid epedemic in Portugal, and this son may have also been a victim. I remember reading that these deaths were one of the blows that contributed to the death of Prince Albert in 1861.

Augustus, Duke of Coimbra 1847-1889. I have no information on this son.


Hardly a stable dynasty.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 29, 2005, 02:17:07 PM
Was not Dom Miguel I the first husband of Dona Maria II? I do not think the marriage was ever consumated because of her young age but they were married if for only a short time. I assume that this marriage was annulled after her father Dom Pedro I of Brazil won the Civil War against her husband-uncle.

DAP
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Prince_Christopher on June 29, 2005, 03:52:23 PM
I do remember that marriage between Maria II and Dom Miguel was at one time considered, but I thought it had never went through.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: cimbrio on July 25, 2005, 10:04:16 AM
I think they were actually betrothed but never married, sicne he tried to usurpe the throne before (I think).
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Eurohistory on July 26, 2005, 11:30:12 AM
The idea was to marry Miguel to his niece Maria II and have them rule jointly, but Miguel jumped the gun and proclaimed himself King of Portugal when Maria II was 9 years of age. This led to the ar of succession which Pedro IV eventually won.

Hence Maria's first husband was August of Leuchtenberg and not Miguel I.

Also, and this is a mistake commonly made by most, there is NO Saxe-Coburg-Kohary family.  The name of this branch was never actually changed after the marriage of Ferdinand of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and Antonia von Kohary.  What one can do to differentiate between this junior, and Catholic line, and the others is refer to them as Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (Kohary Line).  No members of the Catholic brach ever used the SCKohary name as a title or last name.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on December 22, 2005, 12:57:12 PM


As for Maria's children:

D.Pedro V died of typhoid,in 1861

John, Duke of  Beja  1842-1861, I believe he also died of typhoid.

Antonia married Leopold of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. .

Ferdinand 1846-1861.

Augustus, Duke of Coimbra 1847-1889. I have no information on this son.

Infanta D. Maria Anna married the Pr. of Saxony in 1859.
Then in 1861 Infanta D. Antonia married the Pr. of Hohenzollern .
D. Antónia was the most cheerful and favourite sister of her brothers and when she left the country they fell so sad that the king decided they  should go on a hunting trip to Vila Viçosa where the family had a large palace and a game park.
Apparently all of them drank polluted water from a well and began to feel sick.
D. Fernando was the first to die on Nov, 6.
Then on Nov, 11 the king died.
Infante D.João, duke of Beja, died on Dec, 27.
D.Luis escaped because, as a navy officer, he went with D. Antónia to Germany.
Infante D. Augusto almost died like his brothers but he was saved by an Indian doctor with some strange potions.He was slightly retarded which was officially due to the herbs he had taken.
He never married although at a certain time there were plans to marry him to one of Queen Isabel II's daughters.
He always lived with his father and step-mother.
He was created Duke of Caminha.

Queen D. Maria had many other children who did not survive:
3. D. Maria (b.+d. 4.10.1840)
9. D. Leopoldo (b.+d. 7.5.1849)
10. D. Maria (b.+d. 3.2.1851)
11. D. Eugénio (b.+d.. 15.11.1853) whose birth caused the queen's death.

José
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on December 22, 2005, 01:56:07 PM
Quote
Apparently all of them drank polluted water from a well and began to feel sick.
D. Fernando was the first to die on Nov, 6.
Then on Nov, 11 the king died.
Infante D.João, duke of Beja, died on Dec, 27.
D.Luis escaped.
Infante D. Augusto almost died like his brothers


This quick sucession of deaths shocked everybody and many people suspected they were caused by poison which led to a great riot in Lisbon.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on December 22, 2005, 02:12:16 PM
True.
And they all blamed the Prime-Minister, the duke of Loulé, who was D.Pedro V's great-uncle as he married Infanta D. Ana de Jesus Maria.
People say he wanted to place in the throne his own son, so they ravaged his palace and a few more.
I think I read the duke had taken refuge in the british or french embassy

José
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on December 22, 2005, 03:32:20 PM
Hello...

Actually the future King Luis I was on trip with his brother the Duke of Beja...Things happened like this:

While they're travelling the other three brothers (King Pedro V, Inft Fernando and Inft Augusto) all got sick...Inft Fernando was the first to die on Nov 6th, then a few days later was the Kings turn (Nov 11th)...Dom Augusto was badly sick and his life in serious danger (it's notorious that he had always benn the less healthy of the brothers, and when he was born, he was baptised very quickly...because his life expectancy was very short, but he survived)...

With the Kings death and Luis not present in Portugal, ther King Consort became the regent (for 14 days)...When Luis arrived on Lisbon harbour (not knowing the facts) the officials that came on board saluted him as 'Your Majesty'...In dismay Luis said "Ai o meu pobre Pedro!" ('My poor Pedro!')...

Dom João was the second in the line of succession now...but he also contracted the dease which had killed the brothers and died Dec 27th.

Augusto continued to be very sick till a Portuguese doctor of Indian origin tried a last measure...to take Augusto out of Lisbon, to another environment...this last resource measure was probably his salvation...

Augusto (cr Duke of Coimbra at 18 years old) was never the same, he had a quiet army officer life and was always attached to his papa, with whom he lived. He died unmarried, and I don't know if there was ever marriage projects.

Maria II's only children not to get sick were Luis and his sisters (which were already married in Germany)...

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on December 22, 2005, 03:38:59 PM
Maria II was first married to her uncle (then just Infant Dom Miguel) by proxy at Vienna, 29 Oct 1826. They had the dispensation of His Holiness Pope Leo XII.

With the following events and during the civil war they were legally bounded as 'future' husband and wife. After the final defeat of (now) King Dom Miguel I, His Excellency the Patriarch of Lisbon, nullified the marriage (Lisbon, 1 Dec 1834). The same day she married by proxy the Duke of Leuchtenberg and Santa Cruz.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on December 22, 2005, 05:49:58 PM
Quote
Dom João was the second in the line of succession now...but he also contracted the dease which had killed the brothers and died Dec 27th.


What I find strange in this story is that Dom João was travelling abroad when his brothers felt sick and died of typhoid. After João arrived to Portugal, he also felt sick and died of the SAME disease as his brothers.

How did João get sick?

I search on internet and found that "typhoid is transmitted by food or water contaminated with feces from an infected person".
So, João was contaminated by his surviving brother Augusto.

Too sad.  :'(
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on December 23, 2005, 12:50:13 PM
It was indeed very sad...a dynasty with so many princes ready to make wonderful marriages...and in a few months everything turned into tragedy... :'(

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Callasboy on January 20, 2006, 04:10:42 PM
What sort of information and photobiography is there available regarding D. Fernando and the Countess of Edla? I've been doing some research but haven't been very successful...
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on January 21, 2006, 04:48:25 PM
I'm sorry I have no information for what you've asked...

Do you know if it is true they had a daughter...was it after Fernando became a widower? Did they recognise the child?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 21, 2006, 04:55:48 PM
Quote
What sort of information and photobiography is there available regarding D. Fernando and the Countess of Edla? I've been doing some research but haven't been very successful...


I know about an on-line photobiography regarding Fernando II and the Countess of Edla but you must to pay to see it.
If you are willing to pay, send me a private message.

And NO, I'm not the owner of the photos!  ;)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on January 21, 2006, 05:02:32 PM
When Fernando died there was a scandal because he made Edla the great heiress of his wealth...he gave her including the Pena Palace in Sintra...the public opinion went mad...King Luis ended up buying the Palace to the Countess...
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 21, 2006, 05:05:13 PM
Quote
Do you know if it is true they had a daughter...was it after Fernando became a widower? Did they recognise the child?

Yes it is true.

Fernando II and Elisa had a daughter called Alice Hensler, born in 1855 and died in 1941.

Alice was born when Fernando was a widower but before he married to Elisa, which happened only in 1869, when Alice was 14 years-old!!!

About the recognition I don't know nothing. Sorry.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Bernardino on January 21, 2006, 05:09:02 PM
Thank you very much for your reply Grand Duke  ;)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Callasboy on January 22, 2006, 05:28:39 AM
Grand Duke,

I'm very interested in the website. Can you please send me the weblink?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 22, 2006, 11:44:38 AM
Quote
Fernando II and Elisa had a daughter called Alice Hensler, born in 1855 and died in 1941.

Alice was born when Fernando was a widower but before he married to Elisa, which happened only in 1869, when Alice was 14 years-old!!!

About the recognition I don't know nothing. Sorry.


The story concerning this daughter is rather suspicious.
Some pretend she was D. Fernando's daughter, other say she was the offspring of another liaison.
The fact that the child did not carry D.Fernando's name might emply that he did not recognize her (would she be his daughter or not).

Do you know when did Elisa irts came to Portugal ?
If the child was born in 1855, that would be just two years after Q. D.Maria's death.

I know the story of a daughter of Elise living in Parede (or Paço de Arcos ?) next to the famous rock house over the Marginal route. That house was destroyed in the 50/60s.

Another interesting place would be the "Chalet da Condessa" in the Pena Park in Sintra.
It was abandonned for ages and menacing to fall apart.
A couple of years ago it burnt/was set fire to. At the time it was said that an occultist/satanic group used to meet there.

After the fire the local authorities promised to rebuild it, but I never heard anything after.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Callasboy on January 22, 2006, 12:24:58 PM
I had no ideia that the 'Chalet da Condessa' had burned down. It doesn't suprise me, as there still are many properties in and around the Serra de Sintra that have been left to rot....
Are there any pictures of the interior?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 22, 2006, 01:31:08 PM
(http://purl.pt/104/1/iconografia/imagens/146_verdi_g_28.jpg)

Elisa Hensler as "Oscar" in Verdi's opera "Un Ballo in Maschera" (Lisbon, 1860).
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2006, 01:34:17 PM
Was she a good actress ?  ???
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 22, 2006, 02:19:12 PM
No, I couldn't find any pictures of the Chalet, only a few interesting articles (and the same picture that the Grand-Duke posted).

Answering my own question ;D one of the sites refers that Elisa Hensler first presentation in Portugal was in 1860.
I am not sure if D. Fernando travelled a lot between D. Maria's death and 1855. ::)
After all, he was Regent for D. Pedro V

http://jn.sapo.pt/2005/12/06/grande_lisboa/chalet_condessa.html

http://www.parquesdesintra.pt/info/newsletter_02.htm

http://www.cm-sintra.pt/Artigo.aspx?ID=3446&print=1            
http://bnd.bn.pt/ed/verdi/iconografia/146.html                    
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/pessoas/pes_show.php?id=21770

http://www.asamnet.de/~ohmhartm/d0001/g0000049.html#I3936
Quote
I had no ideia that the 'Chalet da Condessa' had burned down. It doesn't suprise me, as there still are many properties in and around the Serra de Sintra that have been left to rot....
Are there any pictures of the interior?



Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 22, 2006, 02:20:30 PM
Quote
Was she a good actress ?  ???


D. Fernando was a great fan of her  ::) :-* ;D
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 22, 2006, 02:21:50 PM
Quote
one of the sites refers that Elisa Hensler first presentation in Portugal was in 1860.
I am not sure if D. Fernando travelled a lot between D. Maria's death and 1855. ::)


Yes, I also found that date as the year Elisa arrived to Portugal.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 22, 2006, 02:26:41 PM
Quote
Was she a good actress ?  ???


She must have been famous because Prince Ernst II of Saxe gave her the title of "Countess of Edla".

Some sites say that she already had the title when she arrived to Portugal, others say that she was named Countess only when she married Fernando.

Does anybody know more about her title?

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Grand Duke on January 22, 2006, 03:35:51 PM
Quote
Are there any pictures of the interior?

Don't worry: The Grand Duke of Lipton-upon-Avon has found a website with the outside, interiors and even plans photos of the Chalet. Follow the link: Chalet of Countess of Edla (http://www.monumentos.pt/scripts/zope.pcgi/ipa/pages/ficha_ipa?nipa=1111120040).
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 23, 2006, 07:31:15 AM
Quote

She must have been famous because Prince Ernst II of Saxe gave her the title of "Countess of Edla".

Some sites say that she already had the title when she arrived to Portugal, others say that she was named Countess only when she married Fernando.

Does anybody know more about her title?



I always read that the title was bestowed on her on D. Fernando's request ; not because of her artistic gifts  ;) .

If Alice was really D.Fernando's daughter, that would have explain much about prude D. Pedro's behaviour towards his father.
But I don't think he ever wrote about it.
And there's no mention of her either by D.Luis or D.Carlos.

Thanks for posting the link to Chalet da Condessa.
I found that site yesterday on Copernico but I could not open it.

It was really a romantic place.
What a shame that it burnt.
On the links I posted above, all said that the Chalet will be rebuilt. Let's hope so, and specially, let's hope it will have a proper surveillance that would prevent hooligans to use it for satanic rites and other things.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Callasboy on January 23, 2006, 12:37:21 PM
Hello everyone,

Well it seems that we have a lively discussion going on here. It's always a pleasure to read your comments.

The countess of Edla wasn't an actress. She was an Opera singer who visited Portugal as part of an Opera company visiting several Portuguese cities. In Oporto she wasn't very well received, however in Lisbon, where men seemed to be a lot more appreciative of her physical attibutes, she was extremely well received. One of the men she managed to impress was no other than D. Fernando.

Even though heartbroken with the death of his wife, Queen D. Maria II, and having to dedicate himself to his family, he was a big fan of chorus girls, and spent a great deal of time backstage at the Opera. Some reports of the time claim that he almost lived there...hehehehe.

The countess however, Elise Hanzler at the time, wasn't the sort of woman to settle  for what she probably saw as being a quick fling. She was known to spend the night at the Palace with D. Fernando and then leave to go across the river where she kept another lover. While living in Oporto she had a relationship with a musician called Miguel Angelo Pereira who gave her 2 sons.

After 1863 when D. Luiz assumed the throne, D. Fernando started to assume the relationship causing a tremendous scandal. The king wanting to legalize the situation, as a way of controling damage, contacted the bishop of Viseu hoping that there would be way of giving Elise some sort of title so that a morganatic marriage wouldn't be so scandalous. The bishop however point blanc refused to give his blessing, pointing out to the king that he could even loose his crown as a consequence of it. She finally receives the title of countess through the influence of Ernest II of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.

After they got married a very interesting episode took place where the throne of Spain was offered to D. Fernando, causing her to almost become queen of Spain.

Even after they got married while D. Fernando would be invited to all sorts of events, she woudn't be included in the invitation. As a consequence D. Fernado started attending only official ceremonies, making very clear the fact that if invitations weren't extended to his wife he would decline them.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 26, 2006, 01:18:51 PM
Quote
Hello everyone,

After they got married a very interesting episode took place where the throne of Spain was offered to D. Fernando, causing her to almost become queen of Spain.



Apparently the spanish diplomats were so busy trying to solve the mess that Queen Isabel II caused that they hadn't realised that D. Fernando got married to Elisa.

When they came to Lisbon to offer the throne to the king he asked them what would be his wife's position in court and they were flabbergasted as they ignored the king's marriage.

They asked a time to sort out her status - never as queen - and D. Fernando, who was not that interested in becoming King of Spain, swiftly declined the offer.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on March 23, 2006, 11:43:16 AM
A new book was just published about Elise Hensler.

Called "A Condessa de Edla" it is the first work of Teresa Rebelo, published by Editorial Atheneia

ISBN 989 622 031X

I took a brief look and it seemed very interesting with lots of photos and pictures of D.Fernando, the Countess, the RF, Elise's descendants, etc.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on April 03, 2006, 01:04:12 PM
Sorry, wrong editor.
It's Aletheia not Atheneia
http://genealogia.netopia.pt/livraria/livro.php?id=488
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: alixaannencova on November 22, 2007, 01:32:32 PM
Hello

I wonder if any one knows of any really good books in English about Maria II and her family? I would love to find something in English as I do not speak Portuguese!!!

Also are there any 'coffee table' books about the House of Braganca and their homes? I want to learn more about this fascinating Royal family and their beautiful Kingdom!! 
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: dmitri on January 08, 2008, 06:55:08 AM
Guide Books are available in English in most of the former Royal Palaces in Portugal. I picked up one at Ajuda Palace, Queluez Palace and the Pena Palace in Sintra. I also picked up a great book on the former Portuguese Crown jewels and also one on Queen Maria Pia. I wish I could have picked up biographies in English but they were sadly only in Portuguese. They are not so good at catering for foreigners.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Norbert on January 09, 2008, 04:16:19 PM
you are so lucky. The Ajuda was closed and Queluz was sterile in atmosphere. I enjoyed the Pena Castle which was described in 1980 as an" example of vulgar decadance of the former tyrants"
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: dmitri on January 10, 2008, 08:09:59 AM
The Ajuda Palace can sometimes be closed for State Dinners. The republic still uses the large State Dining Room. It is normally open. It was largely redecorated by Queen Maria Pia. She lived there until shortly before being forced to flee with the onset of the 1910 revolution. It is really worth a visit. A wonderful tram takes you up there from the city.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 12, 2008, 10:59:23 AM
The Ajuda Palace can sometimes be closed for State Dinners. The republic still uses the large State Dining Room. It is normally open. It was largely redecorated by Queen Maria Pia. She lived there until shortly before being forced to flee with the onset of the 1910 revolution. It is really worth a visit. A wonderful tram takes you up there from the city.

And until February, you can visit the Hermitage exhibition at D.Luis Galeria - part of the palace.
Palácio is the most sumptuous, yet unfinished, royal palace of Lisbon.
When King D.Luis died, his son D.Carlos decided that he would not have his Mother moving from a palace she loved so much and that she personally redecorated with such passion, so he lived in Belém Palace, nowadays the official residence of the President of the Republic.
This one opens one day per year at the National Monuments Day and sometimes one day in April (National Holiday).
On Sundays you can watch the Changeing of the Horse Guards cerimony.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Norbert on January 21, 2008, 01:15:34 PM
Why do these Republics keep all the ceremony of the former monarchys....changing the guard etc? And the president lives in a Royal palace?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on January 21, 2008, 04:20:11 PM
The official explanation for Presidents to live in Royal Palaces is that ... they are available and it is easier to protect the president in a palace than in its own residence/flat.

Many of our presidents don't actually live in the palace but it is their official residence, i.e., they work and entertain their visitors there.

I know that the King and Queen of Spain once had dinner at former president Sampaio flat in Lisbon.
That should have caused some chill to the security.

There is a nice (and true) story that one of the first presidents (1st republic 1910/26) refused the official driver and car, and went to work in Belém Palace by tramway.
Those were the days :-)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Norbert on January 29, 2008, 10:54:07 AM
At least the soviets were true to their creed and invented new ceremonies . I find it daft to surround the Republican President with the grandeur of it's royal heritage. It just does not work at any level. I agree the French president is ridiculous to maintain the Elysee and be chaperoned with guards dressed in imperial uniforms....I understand the security but to maintain a court in a Royal Palace at public expense, whats wrong with putting some guards outside their family home.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 06:39:27 PM
Princess Maria Anna

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/Maria_irmaPEDRO.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/2DMariaAnaCDV1bb.jpg)


Her daughters Mathilde and Maria Josepha

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/MatildeSaxeFilhaMariaAna.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/FilhaMARIAANA.jpg)


Her son Frederick William

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/Sachsen_FriedrichAugustIII.jpg)


Her grandson Frederick Christian

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/FredericoCristianoNetoMariaAna.jpg)


It sure is wonderful to see descendents of Braganzas who believed in Democracy! King Carlos did not die without any relatives except for his mother, brother, wife and sons, all of which have no issue. He was part of an enlarged family and this particular aunt was always close to him. Princess Maria Anna married Prince Georg of Saxony in 1859, at the Necessidades Chapel, in Lisbon. Unlike people generally think, she did not renounce totally to her succession rights. Her marriage agreement did say that, in the case of her brothers having no issue, she would again assume her rights to the Portuguese throne. That was the constitutional and democratic law still practiced in 1910, when Portugal became a Republic.

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 06:52:17 PM
Princess Maria Anna photographed in Lisbon, 1859, by court photographer F. A. Gomes.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/DMariaAnaCDV1.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 06:58:41 PM
Maria Anna and baby Mathilde (photo hanging on the wall  at the Ajuda Palace, near King Luis' room).

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/DMariaAnaCDV4.jpg)

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 07:09:08 PM
Maria Anna of Braganza in later years.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/DMariaAnaInfantac1880-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 07:13:35 PM
Her girls, Mathilde and Maria Josepha.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/filhasmariaanasaxony.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 07:17:59 PM
Her eldest son, Frederick of Saxony as a young boy. He would be one of the last cousins to visit her nephew King Carlos before the 1908 regicide.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/FredericoAugustoSaxeYoung.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 07:21:15 PM
Maria Anna's grandchildren. Frederick's 3 sons and 3 daughters. Two of the girls married into the family becoming Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen princesses.


(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/FilhosFredericoSaxe_1932.jpg)



Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 30, 2009, 07:26:36 PM
Maria Anna. Engraving by Sta. Barbara, 1859.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/D_Maria_Anna_Por_StaBarbara.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2009, 07:34:34 PM
Isn't some of this covered in the Saxony thread?

The Kingdom of Saxony (Sachsen) and its Ruling Family
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1840.0

 Saxony Princesses
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=9084.0

 Children of Maria Anna and Georg of Saxony
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6235.0

Queens of Saxony
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=4174.0
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Amelio on March 31, 2009, 04:01:55 AM
I followed these links and no Maria Anna there  :(
Only posts about her son's wife who left him for another man.

Isn't some of this covered in the Saxony thread?

The Kingdom of Saxony (Sachsen) and its Ruling Family
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1840.0

 Saxony Princesses
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=9084.0

 Children of Maria Anna and Georg of Saxony
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6235.0

Queens of Saxony
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=4174.0
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 31, 2009, 08:43:57 AM
Hello DonaAntonia,

thank you so much for your kind answer. Maria Anna don't seem to be a very popular royal, so it's really great to have the chance to learn more about her! :-) Of course, I have some more questions.

Can you tell me more about Maria Anna's death? I didn't know that one of her children passed on its disease to Maria Anna. All I know is that she died quite suddenly.

As you probably know Maria Anna's two eldest daughters, Maria Johanna and Maria Elisabeth, died as babies. I sometimes wonder how Maria Anna dealt with this stroke of fate. Do you have any information - maybe also about the cause of the babies' death?

Do you know anything about Maria Anna's relationship to her husbang Georg? On the one hand, I read that he suffered a lot after her death and also thought about becoming a monk. On the other hand, Georg's daughter-in-law Archduchess Luisa wrote that he was conservative, arrogant and bossy. What do you think?

I would love to hear from you soon. Marie.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:21:10 PM
Hi,
Thank you Veronica, MarieCharlotte and Yseult for your wonderful contributions! It's great to have someone I can «talk» about Princess Maria Anna with. She really was a special Lady. The day she got married, she was brokenhearted to have to leave her family, but she stood firmly at the altar, and nobody saw her shed a single tear. «She cried it all out yesterday, by herself, not to hurt her brothers who all think they are losing a second mother». Queen Stephanie tells her mother that Maria Anna will  specially be missed in King Ferdinand's (her father) life, since she was the one used as a moderator between him and King Pedro V because of being so diplomatic. During the months they spent together at the Necessidades Palace, between May 1858 and May 1859, Queen Stephanie and Princess Maria Anna developed a deep friendship and the Queen thought she was «so clever for her young age».

Before the future King Carlos was born and after tragedy struck the Portuguese Royal Family (4 deaths in 3 years: 1859-1861), she was the 3rd in the line of succesion, next to her surviving brothers King Luiz and Prince Augusto. Her husband Georg was always reminding her of that, because he was very proud. For what I have read, they were not happy. Maria Anna had great expectations and was keen of her liberal background. Georg believed in autocratic Monarchy, unlike her sister Antonia's husband, Leopold of Hohenzollern. So Maria Anna avoided any discussions about politics with him. Later on, as his character was similar to his convictions, she avoided discussions of any sort.

When her nephew King (then prince) Carlos visits her, she is living by herself in a small palace near Dresden (I will try to find its name). But Georg insists on Carlos staying at the main palace «because Aunt Anna's place is so small».

All I know about her death is that she had been ill for more than a week when it happened in February 5, 1884. Her children had all had a fever and the youngest, Albert, got dephtyria. She cared for him day and night during 3 months and became ill, growing weaker and weaker. After her death it was Mathilde who became a second mother to the others.

When Maria Anna left Portugal in 1859 she carried with her the most expensive wardrobe you can imagine, all of which is accounted for in the Royal papers. King Pedro V insisted on it, probably because Queen Stephanie had come almost without any money to her marriage. Maria Anna joked saying she would wear her old Portuguese court dresses anyway. In some of her photos already in Saschen you can see her wearing those favorite dresses.

About how Maria Anna and her siblings, Antonia and the Princes, were raised by Queen Maria II,  there are a number of beautiful «jokes». Queen Maria was a «super-mother» and insisted on teaching the children herself and on going out with them to stroll through the streets of Lisbon like any normal housewife. That was what she understood being a Liberal meant. Once, at the public garden in central Lisbon, a poor boy came to ask for a kiss from the princes. As he was very dirty, they turned their faces on him in disgust. Queen Maria slapped them right there and made them kiss the boy because «it is them we live for». She is still called «the Good Mother» and «the Educator» in History books.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:25:10 PM
A montage of Maria Anna and her family in 1858. From left to right: Queen Stephanie, King Pedro V, Princes Augusto and Ferdinand, Antonia, their father King Ferdinand and Maria Anna.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/9CStephFamilia.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:26:34 PM
Maria Anna and Georg of Saschen.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/Sachsen_GeorgMariaAnna.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:28:21 PM
Maria Anna looking sad, in my oppinion.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/MariaAnaCDVAlbumSisi.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:29:56 PM
Beautiful Maria Anna.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/DMariaAnaCDV2.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on March 31, 2009, 07:47:46 PM
Georg, her husband (not very handsome, also in my humble opinion). This photo was taken in Lisbon by Photographer Gomes in 1859.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/GeorgDeSaxepeq1.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Terence on March 31, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
It sure is wonderful to see descendents of Braganzas who believed in Democracy! King Carlos did not die without any relatives except for his mother, brother, wife and sons, all of which have no issue. He was part of an enlarged family and this particular aunt was always close to him. Princess Maria Anna married Prince Georg of Saxony in 1859, at the Necessidades Chapel, in Lisbon. Unlike people generally think, she did not renounce totally to her succession rights. Her marriage agreement did say that, in the case of her brothers having no issue, she would again assume her rights to the Portuguese throne. That was the constitutional and democratic law still practiced in 1910, when Portugal became a Republic.

What are the details of this renunciation?  I'd always heard the pretender to the Portuguese throne was Duarte Pio Nuno, descendant of Miguel the Usurper.  Why are her descendants considered excluded?

T
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Marc on April 01, 2009, 04:25:12 AM
Beautiful portrait of George...are there any of Maria Anna?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Agneschen on April 01, 2009, 08:45:47 AM
I remember reading somewhere that King Pedro was not overfond of his brother-in-law Georg, at least at first, and found him cold & rather disagreable. Need to check my sources.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 01, 2009, 08:59:03 AM
According to me, this is Marguerite Nemours.

Yes, I agree. This CDV was for sale on ebay, but obviously it was misidentified.

Anyway, now I have another picture of Marguerite which are quite rare.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 01, 2009, 07:44:34 PM
I remember reading somewhere that King Pedro was not overfond of his brother-in-law Georg, at least at first, and found him cold & rather disagreeable. Need to check my sources.

You are right, Agneschen. King Pedro V was not specially happy with this marriage, after Prince Georg had spent some weeks in Portugal, specially in Sintra. But the marriage had already been set with the King of Saxony, and with Princess Maria Anna's approval. It seems Prince Georg was rather absentminded during the all vacation, not fulfilling some of the scheduled compromises, and specially fond of talking about his future children's rights to the Portuguese thrown.This was a time when King Pedro and Queen Stephanie were trying to have children and the King still had 4 brothers and another sister, so it was considered very bad taste.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 01, 2009, 08:01:40 PM
Hi Terence,

I have been trying to find the «Diario do Governo» where the marriage agreement was published in 1859, but the site does not have an archive (the official Government newspaper is called «Diario da Republica» since 1977). I have some notes I took at the Library. The agreement had 18 articles and one of them clearly stated that the abdication was in favor of her brother King Pedro's heirs and also in favour of her other siblings. If they, however, had no issue, she would recover her rights. They do not have issue right now. Why her descendants never say anything about this remains a mystery for me. Prince Maria Emanuel of Saxony must know of all this we have been saying. Some Portuguese Internet users have raised the question in genealogy forums but nothing ever came out of it.
Still, as much as I like Maria Anna's legacy I must allude to the fact that only her great-grandaunt Ana de Jesus Maria had descendants that never left Portugal.
About Duarte Pio de Braganza, I recommend the topic «The Braganzas»: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11456.15
The facts I unveiled to some of the forum members who didn't know them yet have already made the usual polemics with his followers. I prefer not to make some people boil in little water, as we usually say here in Portugal...


It sure is wonderful to see descendants of Braganzas who believed in Democracy! King Carlos did not die without any relatives except for his mother, brother, wife and sons, all of which have no issue. He was part of an enlarged family and this particular aunt was always close to him. Princess Maria Anna married Prince Georg of Saxony in 1859, at the Necessidades Chapel, in Lisbon. Unlike people generally think, she did not renounce totally to her succession rights. Her marriage agreement did say that, in the case of her brothers having no issue, she would again assume her rights to the Portuguese throne. That was the constitutional and democratic law still practiced in 1910, when Portugal became a Republic.

What are the details of this renunciation?  I'd always heard the pretender to the Portuguese throne was Duarte Pio Nuno, descendant of Miguel the Usurper.  Why are her descendants considered excluded?

T
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 01, 2009, 08:07:09 PM
The Royal family of Saxony after Maria Anna's death. You can see her picture (as well as that of Maria Josepha) to mark her presence.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/SaxeFilhosMariaAnnaparentes.jpg)


Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 01, 2009, 08:08:54 PM
Print based on Maria Anna's photo by Gomes.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/MariaAnnaNew.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Terence on April 01, 2009, 09:28:38 PM
Hi Terence,

I have been trying to find the «Diario do Governo» where the marriage agreement was published in 1859, but the site does not have an archive (the official Government newspaper is called «Diario da Republica» since 1977). I have some notes I took at the Library. The agreement had 18 articles and one of them clearly stated that the abdication was in favor of her brother King Pedro's heirs and also in favour of her other siblings. If they, however, had no issue, she would recover her rights. They do not have issue right now. Why her descendants never say anything about this remains a mystery for me. Prince Maria Emanuel of Saxony must know of all this we have been saying. Some Portuguese Internet users have raised the question in genealogy forums but nothing ever came out of it.
Still, as much as I like Maria Anna's legacy I must allude to the fact that only her great-grandaunt Ana de Jesus Maria had descendants that never left Portugal.
About Duarte Pio de Braganza, I recommend the topic «The Braganzas»: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11456.15
The facts I unveiled to some of the forum members who didn't know them yet have already made the usual polemics with his followers. I prefer not to make some people boil in little water, as we usually say here in Portugal...

Thanks for your response DA.  So in other words, Duarte Pio is considered to have a better chance at a restoration because he is more Portuguese, than the Saxon heirs who would legally be in line?

T
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Paola on April 02, 2009, 02:15:51 AM
I remember reading somewhere that King Pedro was not overfond of his brother-in-law Georg, at least at first, and found him cold & rather disagreeable. Need to check my sources.

You are right, Agneschen. King Pedro V was not specially happy with this marriage, after Prince Georg had spent some weeks in Portugal, specially in Sintra. But the marriage had already been set with the King of Saxony, and with Princess Maria Anna's approval. It seems Prince Georg was rather absentminded during the all vacation, not fulfilling some of the scheduled compromises, and specially fond of talking about his future children's rights to the Portuguese thrown.This was a time when King Pedro and Queen Stephanie were trying to have children and the King still had 4 brothers and another sister, so it was considered very bad taste.


And as a father in law, George was not a nice one too, according to his daughter in law, Louise.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 01:49:25 PM
Hi Terence,

It is just about it.
If you go for the theory that only someone whose ancestors never left Portugal can be Duke/Duchess of Bragança, then it is Ana de Jesus Maria's descendants.
If you for the theory that the Duke/Duchess can have foreign ancestors, then you have to go for Maria Anna's.
Neither Duarte Pio nor Maria Pia of Bragança fill in either of the theories. He descends from a banned branch and there are more recent generations of foreigners. She was born outside marriage and the Monarchy law did not consider those children as heirs. But they do have supporters, of course.

Hi Terence,

I have been trying to find the «Diario do Governo» where the marriage agreement was published in 1859, but the site does not have an archive (the official Government newspaper is called «Diario da Republica» since 1977). I have some notes I took at the Library. The agreement had 18 articles and one of them clearly stated that the abdication was in favor of her brother King Pedro's heirs and also in favour of her other siblings. If they, however, had no issue, she would recover her rights. They do not have issue right now. Why her descendants never say anything about this remains a mystery for me. Prince Maria Emanuel of Saxony must know of all this we have been saying. Some Portuguese Internet users have raised the question in genealogy forums but nothing ever came out of it.
Still, as much as I like Maria Anna's legacy I must allude to the fact that only her great-grandaunt Ana de Jesus Maria had descendants that never left Portugal.
About Duarte Pio de Braganza, I recommend the topic «The Braganzas»: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11456.15
The facts I unveiled to some of the forum members who didn't know them yet have already made the usual polemics with his followers. I prefer not to make some people boil in little water, as we usually say here in Portugal...

Thanks for your response DA.  So in other words, Duarte Pio is considered to have a better chance at a restoration because he is more Portuguese, than the Saxon heirs who would legally be in line?

T
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 01:55:23 PM
A painting by Mathilde, Maria Anna's eldest daughter. Almost all of the later generations of Braganzas were exceptional painters. Princess Mathilde lived up to that heritage.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/MatildeDeSaxePintura.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 02, 2009, 02:08:38 PM
Dona Antonia, your thread about Infanta Antonia is now part of the thread about the family of Hohenzollenzollern-Sigmaringen in the Hohenzollern section of this forum. I don't think it was a good decision to put these topics together, but I can't do anything against it.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 02:22:13 PM
Young princess Mathilde, who looked after her siblings when their mother Maria Anna died.
The first time she came to Portugal journalist Rocha Martins was amazed at how well she knew every place she visited, even giving information on where to «turn left or turn right over there after that tree». Because, Princess Mathilde explained, her mother used to spend whole afternoons with her talking about Portugal.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Europe%20Royals/MatildeSaxRetocCDV2.jpg)

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 05:26:48 PM
Thanks, MarieCharlotte! This is such a wonderful photo! I had never seen it. Princess Mathilde was such an interesting person. Pitty she didn't have children of her own. She kind of took her mother Maria Anna's place in the family all the time.

A painting by Mathilde, Maria Anna's eldest daughter. Almost all of the later generations of Braganzas were exceptional painters. Princess Mathilde lived up to that heritage.

I guess this photo shows Princess Mathilde while she was painting ...

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 05:52:55 PM
Here is Albert, who was very ill as a child and was saved by her mother's care.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/AlbertoSaxeFilhoMariaAnna.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 05:54:39 PM
The print using the Gomes photograph (now  complete version):

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/MariaAnna_Litho1.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 02, 2009, 05:57:25 PM
Another version. Seems the pose was quite popular. She looks so much older and serious than she really was.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/MariaAnna_Litho2.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Svetabel on April 03, 2009, 12:52:28 AM
This is such a wonderful photo! I had never seen it. Princess Mathilde was such an interesting person.

I read that Mathilde was quite an ambitious woman who imagined herself a great artist, she liked to create large-than-life  paintings.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 03, 2009, 03:06:22 AM
I have amounts of pictures of Mathilde. One of them shows the princess riding a horse - the poor animal doesn't look very happy ... :-)

In the late 1870s, when Emperor Franz Joseph was searching for a bride for his son, crown prince Rudolf went to Dresden to see Mathilde. Archduchess Louise wrote that he didn't chose her, because he recognized that her puppy fat was just the beginning of Mathilde becoming one of Ruben's fat ladies. Yeah, that's mean. :-)
Later Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Rudolf's cousin, was sent to Dresden to see Maria Josepha. He didn't like her. This was the most embarrassing situation for the Austrian court as this has been the second refusal of an archduke to a princess of Saxony. It is said that this is the reason why Archduke Otto was forced to marry Maria Josepha - the beginning of an unhappy married-life for both of them.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 03, 2009, 03:16:43 AM
DonaAntonia, may I ask you if you have some more pictures of Maria Anna's sons Maximilian and Albert? They are absolutely rare.

Poor Albert fell off his horse while he had been on a maneuver in Wolkau, Saxony. He was severely wounded and died, before his father Georg arrived. He was 25 years old.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Paola on April 03, 2009, 05:54:12 AM
DonaAntonia, may I ask you if you have some more pictures of Maria Anna's sons Maximilian and Albert? They are absolutely rare.

Poor Albert fell off his horse while he had been on a maneuver in Wolkau, Saxony. He was severely wounded and died, before his father Georg arrived. He was 25 years old.



Is it sure he died in a  military maneuver?  Wikipedia (ok, not always the best source) says he died  of injuries sustained in a carriage crash caused by Prince Miguel of Braganza. Which is the truth?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 03, 2009, 06:07:48 AM
I've never heard of that version. I got my information from "Die Wettiner" by Albert Herzog von Sachsen (born 1934). He is a family member, so I think he's right.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Paola on April 03, 2009, 06:11:45 AM
One think is sure, Prince albert died of a accident. but what accident?? Here is what wikipedia says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Miguel_of_Braganza

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 03, 2009, 04:56:20 PM
It is true. The death of Prince Albert of Saxony is just one of the many skeletons the Miguelist subbranch of the Braganzas has in the closet. It never was sorted out, but it implied that the eldest son of the second Miguel was substituted by his younger brother Duarte, who was upgraded to «heir». He later married an American lady.


DonaAntonia, may I ask you if you have some more pictures of Maria Anna's sons Maximilian and Albert? They are absolutely rare.

Poor Albert fell off his horse while he had been on a maneuver in Wolkau, Saxony. He was severely wounded and died, before his father Georg arrived. He was 25 years old.



Is it sure he died in a  military maneuver?  Wikipedia (ok, not always the best source) says he died  of injuries sustained in a carriage crash caused by Prince Miguel of Braganza. Which is the truth?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 03, 2009, 05:01:07 PM
Prince Max, another of Maria Anna's sons (as requested) and his nephew Georg, who abdicated to also become a priest.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/maxsaxony1870.jpg)

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/Georg_NetoMariaAna_PrinceSaxe.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 03, 2009, 05:02:51 PM
Here is a larger version of Maria Anna with her little hat.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/DMariaAnaCDV3.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Empress_Catherine on April 05, 2009, 04:35:15 PM
I just found out that Prince Gero is buried not far from where I live  :o
He is buried in the same place as my grandfather....Perhaps I will go there and take photos of this!! You dont get royal Princes buried in Canada everyday and even this close to home!!!

He died at Picton General Hospital (again not very far from here) and was buried at Elmwood in Corbyville, Ontario.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Jose II on April 07, 2009, 05:24:54 PM

Princess Maria Anna

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/Maria_irmaPEDRO.jpg)



Any idea why the photo of Infanta D. Maria Ana Fernanda Leopoldina Micaela Rafaela Gabriela Carlota Antónia Júlia Vitória Praxedes Francisca de Assis Gonzaga has a caption Pss Sophie v.Sachsen ?

I won't comment any more your "diatribes" against HRH D.Duarte Pio, Duke of Bragança and the legitimate successor of the Kings of Portugal ;-)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 08, 2009, 04:50:47 AM
Any idea why the photo of Infanta D. Maria Ana Fernanda Leopoldina Micaela Rafaela Gabriela Carlota Antónia Júlia Vitória Praxedes Francisca de Assis Gonzaga has a caption Pss Sophie v.Sachsen ?

Well, Sophie Marie Friederike Auguste Leopoldine Alexandrine Ernestine Albertine Elisabeth (btw: I prefer Maria Anna's names!) was the youngest daughter of Johann and Amalie of Saxony, that means she was Georg's youngest sister and Maria Anna's sister-in-law. Pictures of Princess Sophie are quite rare as she died at the age of 21. Maybe someone wanted to make money with this alleged picture of Sophie? Or the person who identified Maria Anna as Sophie simply didn't know anything about royalty.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Jose II on April 08, 2009, 10:40:31 AM
Or the person who identified Maria Anna as Sophie simply didn't know anything about royalty.

I guess this must be the reason as, no doubt, it is the portrait of Infanta D.Maria Anna
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on April 08, 2009, 03:13:56 PM
I have noticed that on pictures of the Royal Family of Saxony from the late 1800's to 1918 they are always referred to as (for example) Prinzcessin Mathilde, Hergozin zu Sachsen or Prinzcessin Maria Alix, Hergozin zu Sachsen instead of just Prinzcessin Maria Alix von Sachsen or Prinzcessin Mathilde von Sachsen.  Why were their old titles of Duke/Duchess used again after being "abandoned" before?

Does it have to do with the Grand Duchy of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach (Großherzogtum Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach) becoming Grand Duchy of Saxony (Großherzogtum Sachsen) in 1877? That is the only explanation I can think of.  ???

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Amelio on April 08, 2009, 05:44:22 PM


Any idea why the photo of Infanta D. Maria Ana Fernanda Leopoldina Micaela Rafaela Gabriela Carlota Antónia Júlia Vitória Praxedes Francisca de Assis Gonzaga has a caption Pss Sophie v.Sachsen ?

I won't comment any more your "diatribes" against HRH D.Duarte Pio, Duke of Bragança and the legitimate successor of the Kings of Portugal ;-)

How nice, José, knowing all those names really makes you an Historian!
Maybe this photo was sabotaged by the followers of her anti-Democracy granduncle, who want to erase the existence of this line of the Braganzas...?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Jose II on April 10, 2009, 11:51:20 AM
Os cães ladram e a caravana passa !

And I won't comment on your idiot assessments such as D.Duarte cannot speak portuguese or link to anonymous blogs of well known provenience.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Amelio on April 15, 2009, 10:54:58 AM
Os cães ladram e a caravana passa !

And I won't comment on your idiot assessments such as D.Duarte cannot speak portuguese or link to anonymous blogs of well known provenience.

Não passarão!
They won't get away with stealing form the Portuguese what is legally ours.
As for the blog I mentioned, please go to the thread Duarte Pio and his booklet. It is anything but anonymous!
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 19, 2009, 06:28:45 PM
I think this one is larger than usual. Notice the dress, just like the one her sister Antonia posed with for F. Gomes.


Maria Anna:

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/MariaAnaRetocCDV1.jpg)

Antonia on my avatar.

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 19, 2009, 06:36:47 PM
19 Century print with Portugal's Kings and rulling Queens. The last pictured are Maria Anna's mother Queen Maria II, her husband King consort Fernando and Maria Anna's 2 brothers: Kings Pedro V and Luis.

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/SoberanosPortugalC1863.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 22, 2009, 08:22:04 PM
Maria Ana on a 1859 Portuguese print.

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/D_Maria_Anna_Por_StaBarbaraB.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Jose II on April 23, 2009, 12:40:13 PM
It is true. The death of Prince Albert of Saxony is just one of the many skeletons the Miguelist subbranch of the Braganzas has in the closet. It never was sorted out, but it implied that the eldest son of the second Miguel was substituted by his younger brother Duarte, who was upgraded to «heir». He later married an American lady.


DonaAntonia, may I ask you if you have some more pictures of Maria Anna's sons Maximilian and Albert? They are absolutely rare.

Poor Albert fell off his horse while he had been on a maneuver in Wolkau, Saxony. He was severely wounded and died, before his father Georg arrived. He was 25 years old.



Is it sure he died in a  military maneuver?  Wikipedia (ok, not always the best source) says he died  of injuries sustained in a carriage crash caused by Prince Miguel of Braganza. Which is the truth?

There we go again.

As Marie-Charlotte states, Pr. Albert died from a horse fall while in military manoeuvres.

But you seem to prefer the Wikipedia article where, after spilling the poison, it even states that the causes were never cleared out and the Prince was never taken to any court .

It is not true that the Prince had to resign his military ranks or posts.
Remember that when WW1 broke, he was an officer of the austrian army , something IIRC you blamed him for...

And that episode with Pr.Albert did not make him resign in favour of D.Duarte Nuno who was born 7 years after Albert's death...
If he was to resign for that, he could have resigned in favour of Infante D.Francisco José.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 24, 2009, 03:47:47 PM
It is true. The death of Prince Albert of Saxony is just one of the many skeletons the Miguelist subbranch of the Braganzas has in the closet. It never was sorted out, but it implied that the eldest son of the second Miguel was substituted by his younger brother Duarte, who was upgraded to «heir». He later married an American lady.


DonaAntonia, may I ask you if you have some more pictures of Maria Anna's sons Maximilian and Albert? They are absolutely rare.

Poor Albert fell off his horse while he had been on a maneuver in Wolkau, Saxony. He was severely wounded and died, before his father Georg arrived. He was 25 years old.



Is it sure he died in a  military maneuver?  Wikipedia (ok, not always the best source) says he died  of injuries sustained in a carriage crash caused by Prince Miguel of Braganza. Which is the truth?

There we go again.

As Marie-Charlotte states, Pr. Albert died from a horse fall while in military manoeuvres.

But you seem to prefer the Wikipedia article where, after spilling the poison, it even states that the causes were never cleared out and the Prince was never taken to any court .

It is not true that the Prince had to resign his military ranks or posts.
Remember that when WW1 broke, he was an officer of the austrian army , something IIRC you blamed him for...

And that episode with Pr.Albert did not make him resign in favour of D.Duarte Nuno who was born 7 years after Albert's death...
If he was to resign for that, he could have resigned in favour of Infante D.Francisco José.

But no, José! Francisco (Franz) was a homossexual (a scandal by the day's standards) and also sexually promiscuous. Read the British press of the period, as not all the titles answered generously to the family's request to have the matter «erased».
Franz was caught «in the very act of sodomy» during King Edward VII's coronation!
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Jose II on April 25, 2009, 01:36:44 PM
First of all:

You've said that D.Miguel had to renounce in favour of D.Duarte Nuno because of the Saxony incident.
Which was never prooved as Wikipedia recognizes.
The Saxony incident happened in 1900, and D.Duarte Nuno was born in 1907.

As to D.Francisco, all I read about his eventual homossexuality was in Wikipedia.
Which press mentioned the incident ? Why on earth would he be in London for Edward VII's coronation as the obvious invited would be his Bragança-Saxe-Coburg cousins ?
If he really was homossexual, despite the scandal that fact ment in the early 20th century, that was not cause for his being outranked from the succession line.  -  Read the commentaries from the Legitimists about him, further down.
Many kings and princes were homossexual: Ludwig II of Bavaria comes to mind. As well as Ferdinand of Bulgaria.
Kaiser Willelm II was very near those "circles", The duke of Clarence, and so many other minor royals.
At the time there was not such gutter-press as today where a homossexual king or crown prince would be crucified despite that comes into the "political incorrectness".

From Malcolm Howe "The Braganza Story"
" Prince Francisco José fought with the Austrian troops and died in 1919 from pneumonia (I guess that soon enough Wikipedia will say it was from AIDS) on the isle of Ischia, near Naples, whilst still a prisonner of war, captured by the Italians"

(Wonder if the Duke of Porto, living also in Naples, ever met his prisonner cousin)

"He, of all the descendants of D.Miguel I, most resembled his grand-father, the King, in his physicall appearance and had also inherited the musical talents of the Braganzas.
His mother had died when he was two years old, and he was brought up by his aunt Infanta D. Maria Anna, before his father married again.
When in 1893 she married the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, Francisco José, at the age of 13, composed the nuptial march for the wedding.
The family always called by the portuguese diminutive of his name "Chico".
He was the joy of their home and became an indefatigable traveller.
His communicative kindness and effusive happiness made the Legitimists regard him as the most esteemed of their Princes, with all the qualities and defects of the Portuguese race.
He supposrted his brother at his wedding in 1909 and they were together in Galizia offering their swords to Paiva Couceiro to fight in both the 1911 and 1912 incursions."

D.Franscisco was also a bullfights aficionado and he was himself a bullfighter.
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 25, 2009, 09:29:27 PM
First of all:

You've said that D.Miguel had to renounce in favour of D.Duarte Nuno because of the Saxony incident.
Which was never prooved as Wikipedia recognizes.
The Saxony incident happened in 1900, and D.Duarte Nuno was born in 1907.

As to D.Francisco, all I read about his eventual homossexuality was in Wikipedia.
Which press mentioned the incident ? Why on earth would he be in London for Edward VII's coronation as the obvious invited would be his Bragança-Saxe-Coburg cousins ?
If he really was homossexual, despite the scandal that fact ment in the early 20th century, that was not cause for his being outranked from the succession line.  -  Read the commentaries from the Legitimists about him, further down.
Many kings and princes were homossexual: Ludwig II of Bavaria comes to mind. As well as Ferdinand of Bulgaria.
Kaiser Willelm II was very near those "circles", The duke of Clarence, and so many other minor royals.
At the time there was not such gutter-press as today where a homossexual king or crown prince would be crucified despite that comes into the "political incorrectness".

From Malcolm Howe "The Braganza Story"
" Prince Francisco José fought with the Austrian troops and died in 1919 from pneumonia (I guess that soon enough Wikipedia will say it was from AIDS) on the isle of Ischia, near Naples, whilst still a prisonner of war, captured by the Italians"

(Wonder if the Duke of Porto, living also in Naples, ever met his prisonner cousin)

"He, of all the descendants of D.Miguel I, most resembled his grand-father, the King, in his physicall appearance and had also inherited the musical talents of the Braganzas.
His mother had died when he was two years old, and he was brought up by his aunt Infanta D. Maria Anna, before his father married again.
When in 1893 she married the Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg, Francisco José, at the age of 13, composed the nuptial march for the wedding.
The family always called by the portuguese diminutive of his name "Chico".
He was the joy of their home and became an indefatigable traveller.
His communicative kindness and effusive happiness made the Legitimists regard him as the most esteemed of their Princes, with all the qualities and defects of the Portuguese race.
He supposrted his brother at his wedding in 1909 and they were together in Galizia offering their swords to Paiva Couceiro to fight in both the 1911 and 1912 incursions."

D.Franscisco was also a bullfights aficionado and he was himself a bullfighter.



Maybe you think I have googled the Absolutist Braganzas to find the skeletons they hide inside the closet. But in fact I do not need to. I have not seen anything about Franz of Braganza in Wikipedia.

I don't doubt he liked bullfights, since his father and grandfather both did enjoy them beyond anything else. About the rest, I think you can just read the newspapers of the period. I am not at all shocked Franz (or anybody, for  that matter) was homossexual. He was entitled to. But since you genuinely think I made it up or saw it in Wikipedia, I'll also tell you that, by today's standards, he was not a homossexual (nothing wrong with that) but a pedophile. He was always caught with teenage boys.

If you still do not believe me, please read the Royalist António Feijó.
His letters to Luis de Magalhães are published (by Imprensa Nacional, 2004).
In the letter dated February 1912 (page 413, volume 2), he wrote:

(as we are off topic here, I think it is better to go on on the «Who is indeed the person who can be called Duke of Braganza» thread. I'll post the translated letter in there. My excuses to readers of this topic: you'll just have to browse the last page of the next thread).

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 25, 2009, 10:48:17 PM
Here is Maria Anna amongst her family, from a photo montage I have scanned from a book on King Carlos. From top to bottom:

King Fernando and Queen Maria II (her parents), Queen Maria Pia, baby Carlos and King Luis, Prince Joao, King Pedro V and Queen Stephanie followed by Prince Fernando (all dead between 1859 and 1861). Bottom: Antonia, Maria Anna and Augusto.

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/FamiliaRealFonsecaCDV1Peq.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: Marie Valerie on April 05, 2014, 11:14:24 AM
The Royal family of Saxony after Maria Anna's death. You can see her picture (as well as that of Maria Josepha) to mark her presence.

(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww149/AntoniaHohen/Royal%20Portugal/SaxeFilhosMariaAnnaparentes.jpg)





I see King Albert, Queen Carola, Crownprince Georg and Mathilde but who are the princes?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on July 21, 2014, 12:11:51 PM
I know it is Wikipedia but the english article on Infante D. Afonso, Duke of Oporto, claims that his engagement to ADss Valerie of Habsburg was publicized but short time later she refused to marry him, allegedelly due to the influence of Infanta D.Maria Theresa, ADss Karl-Ludwig, who nurtured the idea that Valerie would be the ideal bride for her widower brother D.Miguel II.

In the end she did not marry any of the cousins..

Is there any proof of this engagement to D.Afonso and was it ever made public ?

Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on November 04, 2014, 01:40:46 PM
I know it is Wikipedia but the english article on Infante D. Afonso, Duke of Oporto, claims that his engagement to ADss Valerie of Habsburg was publicized but short time later she refused to marry him, allegedelly due to the influence of Infanta D.Maria Theresa, ADss Karl-Ludwig, who nurtured the idea that Valerie would be the ideal bride for her widower brother D.Miguel II.

In the end she did not marry any of the cousins..

Is there any proof of this engagement to D.Afonso and was it ever made public ?




Still no news ?
Title: Re: Maria II of Portugal and her family
Post by: José on October 05, 2016, 07:27:02 AM
No news yet ?