Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) => Topic started by: grandduchess_42 on July 05, 2005, 05:26:37 PM

Title: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 05, 2005, 05:26:37 PM
witch boy of the hesse family died in a car crash?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on July 05, 2005, 06:12:23 PM
None from the Darmstadt branch that I can think of. After the advent of the auto the only males during that time were:

Ernie
George Donatus (died in plane crash)
Alexander (died in plane crash)
Ludwig (died in plane crash)
Louis (natural causes I believe, he was elderly)

It was the dearth of males in the Darmstadt line which caused it to die out and the head of the family to come from the Cassel branch.

I couldn't find anything in the other branches but geneaology isn't my strong point.  :-/
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 08, 2005, 11:49:41 PM
Weren't there two Ludwigs in the family, one beeing the son of Georg Donatus and the other his brother? Georg Donatus died in the plane crash on his way to the wedding of his brother Ludwig along with his son, unborn child, wife and mother.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I just began to studie about the Hessian family)

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on August 08, 2005, 11:55:52 PM
Yes there were two.  George Donatus's elder son was Ludwig--he also had a 2nd son Alexander. Also Ernie's 2nd son Ludwig. It was a pretty popular Hesse/Battenberg name.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 09, 2005, 12:45:01 PM
Who els died in the plane crash with Don, (his; mom, wife, son, unborn child, and ?) I know there was another person, did his other son die with him too?

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: allanraymond on September 08, 2005, 02:29:21 PM
Quote
Who els died in the plane crash with Don, (his; mom, wife, son, unborn child, and ?) I know there was another person, did his other son die with him too?

~Anastacia~


George Donatus's second son Alexander was also killed in the plane crash.

You may wish to check out:

http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Hesse_Rhine_Royal_Family.htm#5.2143

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: julia.montague on September 09, 2005, 11:57:36 AM
When was this plane crash? Who died?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: allanraymond on September 11, 2005, 08:33:11 AM
Quote
When was this plane crash? Who died?


16 November 1937, Hereditary Grand Duke Georg Donatus of Hesse and by Rhine, his mother, his wife and some of his children were killed.

Please see:

http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Hesse_Rhine_Royal_Family.htm#5.2143

Allan Raymond
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 11, 2005, 08:36:31 AM
Georg Donatus, his wife Princess Cecile of Greece (sister of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh), his mother Grand Duchess Eleanore and two of his three children, Ludwig and Alexander were all killed in the crash. His daughter Joanna was adopted by his brother Ludwig and Ludwig's wife Margaret Geddes, but died in 1939.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: lostfan on September 16, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
Quote
http://www.btinternet.com/~allan_raymond/Hesse_Rhine_Royal_Family.htm#5. 2143

The child's body was discovered amongst the wreckage, Princess Cecilie was reported to be eight months pregnant at the time of the crash. Some doubt is cast regarding the birth/death of this baby as the supporting evidence is somewhat lacking.


This is a quote from that website, but it is confusing to me. What does me mean that doubt is cast regarding the birth/death of the baby?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchess_42 on September 17, 2005, 03:47:45 PM
is there a picture of him?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on September 17, 2005, 05:56:16 PM
Quote

This is a quote from that website, but it is confusing to me. What does me mean that doubt is cast regarding the birth/death of the baby?


Perhaps it means confusion over whether the baby died in utero or whether the trauma of the crash caused a posthumous delivery? In the former, the baby wouldn't technically have been born and there wouldn't have been a body.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Helene on September 19, 2005, 10:36:49 AM
I found some info about this crash :

The aircraft was flying from Cologne to London and should have made a scheduled stop at Brussel's Haren airport. However, Brussels was shrouded in fog and the pilot was advised to fly on to Ostend. Weather conditions were poor in Ostend as well and the aircraft hit a factory chimney while flying on approach to Ostend Stene airport. All on board were killed.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: allanraymond on September 25, 2005, 03:09:18 PM
Quote

This is a quote from that website, but it is confusing to me. What does me mean that doubt is cast regarding the birth/death of the baby?


I'm sorry about any confusion.

I don't have my original notes which led to me inserting the comments against the stillborn birth.

David Duff's Hessian Tapestry Book (page 352) mentions the body of an eight-months child, born in the crash was found at the scene.

Although I've carried out some searches today I can't find my original source which cast cast doubt on Duff's statement. My recollection is somewhat of an haze but I can remember a discussion on one of the mailing lists/boards which mentioned there was no supporting evidence a baby's body was found. Also if my memory serves me, the buriel site of the family has no reference to the baby.

Marlene Eilers Queen Victoria's Descendants book mentions the crash but I couldn't locate any mention of finding a baby's body although the The Genealogy section of the book includes the stillborn child (day of crash).  

An article from "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", mentions "An autopsy revealed Cecilie was pregnant with her fourth child at the time of the crash", possibly suggesting the child was not stillborn.

If anyone can share any further information regarding David Duff's statement I would be more than happy to clarify the comments on my Web Page?

Allan Raymond


Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on September 25, 2005, 05:55:46 PM
Here's what I've compiled from other threads--info by Marlene (who did research for David Duff who had written Hessian Tapestry so would probably know):

"It would have been black maternity dress as she was in an advanced stage of pregnancy, and gave birth during the crash. "

"Cecilia was most certainly pregnant at the time, and the pregnancy had been announced. The remains of a newly born stillborn child was found at the crash site - and there are references to this is in the news coverage of the day, including in the New York Times. "

from Hessian Tapestry: "and the body of an eight-months child, born in the crash"
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: allanraymond on September 29, 2005, 07:18:27 PM
Thanks for extra details, these add to the positive theory about the baby being born during the crash. However, I just can't remember which mailing list or message board had postings casting doubt the baby had been born.

Frustrating.

Allan Raymond  
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Marlene on October 04, 2005, 10:11:30 AM
I have said this numerous times.  Cecilia's pregnancy was announced sometime before the crash.   The news accounts -New York Times and Washington post - among others - that the body of a stillborn child was found at the crash site.  The child was buried with its mother.

Quote
Thanks for extra details, these add to the positive theory about the baby being born during the crash. However, I just can't remember which mailing list or message board had postings casting doubt the baby had been born.

Frustrating.

Allan Raymond  

Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: bluetoria on October 04, 2005, 10:59:11 AM
What a dreadful time poor Cecelia must have had!  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Marlene on October 04, 2005, 11:06:22 AM
Quote
What a dreadful time poor Cecelia must have had!  :(


she would not have known ...
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: bookworm857158367 on October 05, 2005, 05:05:46 PM
Quote

she would not have known ...


Undoubtedly they would have all have had time to realize the plane was going down, poor people. I don't want to get into the goulish details, but it's hard to understand how a child could be "born" in the crash unless the mother was alive on the ground and I don't see how any of them could have survived the impact.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: bluetoria on October 05, 2005, 05:26:46 PM
Yes, thank you, bookworm...those were my thoughts. It is too awful to contemplate really.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: bookworm857158367 on October 05, 2005, 05:33:38 PM
Yes, it is too horrible. I'm going to guess that they were all killed instantly (and hopefully were unconscious from the loss of pressure in the cabin and didn't suffer more than a few seconds) and that the unborn child was not actually "born." Maybe the story can be explained by the damage done by the impact.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on October 05, 2005, 05:51:34 PM
Its' going to get ghoulish, but perhaps the remains of a baby were found depending on what the condition of Cecile's body was. She may not have been intact as this happens sometimes with really bad crashes.  :( There have also been cases of a baby being expelled (rather than actually born) post-mortem.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: allanraymond on October 05, 2005, 06:05:19 PM
I have no doubt what you are saying is correct. My frustration is not being able to recollect the posting(s) in which an alternative view was held about the actual birth.  

Allan Raymond

Quote
I have said this numerous times.  Cecilia's pregnancy was announced sometime before the crash.   The news accounts -New York Times and Washington post - among others - that the body of a stillborn child was found at the crash site.  The child was buried with its mother.


Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Marlene on October 05, 2005, 09:56:20 PM
Quote

Undoubtedly they would have all have had time to realize the plane was going down, poor people. I don't want to get into the goulish details, but it's hard to understand how a child could be "born" in the crash unless the mother was alive on the ground and I don't see how any of them could have survived the impact.


The impact of the crash could have forced the baby to be born  --
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Marlene on October 05, 2005, 09:58:24 PM
[quote author=bookworm857158367 Undoubtedly they would have all have had time to realize the plane was going down, poor people. I don't want to get into the goulish details, but it's hard to understand how a child could be "born" in the crash unless the mother was alive on the ground and I don't see how any of them could have survived the impact. [/quote]

Not really - death would have been almost instantaneous after the plane hit the chimney
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: bluetoria on October 06, 2005, 10:37:27 AM
Quote
Its' going to get ghoulish, but perhaps the remains of a baby were found depending on what the condition of Cecile's body was. She may not have been intact as this happens sometimes with really bad crashes.  :( There have also been cases of a baby being expelled (rather than actually born) post-mortem.


I wonder if might have been possible for a baby to survive in such dreadful circumstances...I know this poor baby didn't, but I believe that in some cases babies have been born after the death of their mother and have survived.
All in all, this is just a terribly sad set of circumstances, isn't it.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on October 06, 2005, 05:32:48 PM
It could've been possible in a regular crash I suppose (I'm no doctor) but this crash involved a horrible fire.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ImperialHighness on August 10, 2007, 01:54:48 AM
I have read that the plane crash at Ostende in 1937, which killed Prince Georg Donatus and his family was forced by the KGB, because Georg Donatus still kept some famous and worthful jewels of his aunt, Alix, the tsarita. I think this theory was used in a book in 1986 by Jeffrey Archer, too, if I remember it well. But can this be true?
Or did the plane crash because Cecilie got into labour (is this term correct?) and caused much troubel on the plane and so the pilot just did not concentrate on flying the plane? There is nothing said about this in David Duffs book or another one about the House of Hesse.
Did the investigators in the accident publish any information on it?
And maybe someone knows if there is a biography about Cecilie available.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: dmitri on August 10, 2007, 02:21:36 AM
The plane crash was a terrible tragedy. I have never ever read about any KGB connection. That seems away with the fairies completely. All onboard died. This was the sister of Prince Philip and her husband, children and other family members. They were on the way to a wedding in London. It was a terrible tragedy.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 10, 2007, 05:22:15 AM
The airplane accident is discussed in Hugo Vickers "Alice: Princess Andrew of Greece". The accident was weather related. From memory, I believe the plane struck a building (a factory chimney) in fog on its descent to the airport. As mentioned previously, the family were traveling to a wedding. Tragically, all were killed in the crash.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 10, 2007, 06:08:21 AM
The plane was a Junkers Ju 52 owned and operated by Sabena. The flight from Cologne to London was scheduled to stop at Brussels, but bad weather forced the pilot to continue to Ostend. Unfortunately, conditions were little better at Ostend, and the aircraft hit a factory chimney while circling to land at Stene Airport.

The plane was piloted by Tony Lambotte, one of the most senior and experimented pilots in Sabena service. In his crew were an engineer, a wireless operator and a mechanic.

As Lambotte brought the plane in over Steene to land, the tip of a wing touched the chimney's top. The wing and an engine were ripped away and, in a mass of flames, the Junkers crashed into the works below. All 11 passengers and crew lost their lives in the accident.

Louis' wedding was celebrated, as scheduled, the following day, and immediately he set off with his new wife, Margaret Geddes (1913-1997), daughter of Lord Geddes, to Belgium to visit the crash site. The funeral took place in Darmstadt, Hesse a few days later. Attending were Prince Philip, Gottfried, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Prince Philip of Hesse-Kassel, Berthold, Margrave of Baden, Prince August Wilhelm of Prussia and Lord Louis Mountbatten, among others.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 08:05:07 AM
I hadn't heard that one. If you want to talk conspiracy theories, maybe the plane was sabotaged by Anna Anderson's supporters, since the Hesse family was so against her claim! :o I don't really believe that, I just brought it up because if the AA supporters can make up conspiracy theories, it goes to show you could make something out of it the other way too. I did also hear that the plane was provided by a Nazi, I'll post it if I find it. Anyway, interesting topic, thanks for posting.

As for the jewels, it is true the famous Hessian pearls and lace, worn by Princess Alice, Alix, and Ella (among others) at their weddings, was lost in the crash.

I also read a story that said Cecile was always terrified of planes, and always wore a black dress when she flew  in case she died.

I hadn't heard the story of it crashing while circling to land, I read that the plane hit a smokestack in the fog, on takeoff after a stop for refueling in Belgium. (but again I forgot what book this was in)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 11, 2007, 08:29:59 AM
The Ostende trajedy was compounded two years later when the only surviving child of George Donatus and Cecile died of meningitis. She remained at home at the time of the wedding due to her young age.



Annie, Do you recall the source where you read the Hessian jewels were destroyed in the crash?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 11, 2007, 09:11:48 AM
There have been differing theories surrounding the circumstances of the crash. Weather seems to be the predominant and most likely cause. However, it has been suggested that the Grand Duchess had gone into labor and the plane was trying to make an emergency landing. There was an aricle in the New York Times ( Nov. 23, 1937) that expressed this theory. To my knowledge this was never proven beyond all doubt. According to some media accounts at the time, the baby was found at the accident site. I don't know if this is true or unsubstantiated rumor.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on August 11, 2007, 12:48:43 PM
There was already a thread on the crash so I merged the 2. Here's a bit of info on the baby from a prior page:

I have said this numerous times.  Cecilia's pregnancy was announced sometime before the crash.   The news accounts -New York Times and Washington post - among others - that the body of a stillborn child was found at the crash site.  The child was buried with its mother.

Marlene not only wrote Queen Victoria's Descendants but she also helped David Duff on his work for Hessian Tapestry (which contains some good information on the crash). If the child was indeed buried with Cecile, it would seem to definitively prove that the remains were found in the wreckage.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 11, 2007, 09:13:06 PM
Here is an online article from TIME magazine titled "Curse of Hesse"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,758458,00.html
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 13, 2007, 12:08:24 AM
Yes...A lot of peope believe in that one.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ashdean on August 15, 2007, 08:18:29 AM
The Ostende trajedy was compounded two years later when the only surviving child of George Donatus and Cecile died of meningitis. She remained at home at the time of the wedding due to her young age.



Annie, Do you recall the source where you read the Hessian jewels were destroyed in the crash?
It is mentioned in David Duffs "Hessian Tapestry".However not all the gems were lost....Firstly not all had been taken for the wedding...Queen Victoria's wedding gift tiara to her daughter had at least been left behind...Secondly another tiara of turqouise & moonstones survived and has been exhibited scince...
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ImperialHighness on August 15, 2007, 09:25:58 AM
From the old news archive of our newspaper:

November 16, 1937: The Grand Duke and Duchess of Hess were among 11 people killed when a Sabena Junkers JU-52 airplane crashed near Ostende, Belgium.

The plane was piloted by Tony Lambotte, one of the most senior in Sabena service, with over six hundred thousand flying miles to his credit. In his crew were an engineer, a wireless operator and a mechanic. Among those on board were the Hereditary Grand Duke Georg Donatus of Hesse (b. 1906), his wife, former Princess Cecilie of Greece and Denmark (b. 1911) who was heavily pregnant at the time, their sons Ludwig (b. 1931) and Alexander (b. 1933), the Grand Duke's widowed mother, former Princess Eleonore of Solms-Hohensolms-Lich (b. 1871), Baron Joachim von Riedesel, and Lina Henar, the children's nurse. The group were travelling to London for the wedding of the Hereditary Grand Duke's younger brother Louis. Baron von Riedsel was to be Louis' best man.
The head of the family, Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig (who had tried to end World War I by a desperate mission into Russia to confer with the Czar in 1916) had died on Oct. 9, causing the postponing of Prince Ludwig's marriage to Margaret Campbell Geddes in London for seven weeks. Grand Duke George, the new head of the family, his wife Princess Cecilia of Greece and Denmark, two sons and the Dowager Duchess, as well as the newly born son of Princess Cecilia, were all killed. The child's unexpected arrival apparently caused the tragedy, as the pilot tried to land at Ostend, an unscheduled stop. Prince Ludwig, social attache at the German Embassy in London, went ahead with the wedding on the following day; his best man was his cousin Prince Louis Mountbatten.

About the curse of the House of Hesse:

...The Hesse-Kassel constitution was symbolic--symbolic, in 1831, of the aspirations of many German liberals; symbolic, in later years, of their frustration. Once the revolutionary fervor had subsided, the elector's government made a determined effort to whittle down the powers of the legislature. Its point man in this enterprise was Ludwig Hassenpflug (1794-1862), minister of justice (1832-34) and of the interior (1832-37). Though married to the sister of Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, Hassenpflug did not share the political outlook of his brothers-in-law. Instead, his name quickly became a byword for reaction, lending itself to the alliterative word play "Hassenpflug--Hesse's curse" (Hassenpflug--Hessens Fluch). In fact, one of Hassenpflug;s first targets was the principal architect of the 1831 constitution, the Marburg law professor Sylvester Jordan. The legislature fought back by bringing suit against Hassenpflug in the land's highest court--the first impeachment proceedings in German constitutional history. Hassenpflug left the government in 1837. Though the tug-of-war between legislature and various ministries took on a quieter tone over the next decade, Hesse-Kassel, when the 1848 revolution broke out in Paris, very much had the appearance of a state stranded in constitutional limbo..."

So in first way, it had nothing to do with the hemophiliac disease etc. The synonyme is based on this.

Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 09:39:23 AM
There is no evidence to suggest the former Grand Duke had been to Russia in 1916. That is not proved at all and was in fact dismissed from the evidence offered at the Anna Anderson trial in Germany.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2007, 08:25:10 PM
I think the star tiara and the high tiara were lost during that flight as it was never seen again. The turquise & moonstone tiara was meant as a gify for Peg.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ImperialHighness on August 16, 2007, 02:40:35 PM
@dmitri, well if you have read my reply carefully you must have noticed that I did not say Ernie had visited Alix in 1916, but it was said in the archive of our newspaper.
To be true, I did not believe in his attempt to help Alix, because during WW I everything changed and there was no chance for him to go there. But there is a book, very rare and it s about Ernies visit to Russia in 1916, in a conducteurs costume, he tried to get there on a train, but this attempt failed. The author published the book in the 1920s and no one really cared for the book, but it shall be based on historical facts. I keep it like that- I do not care if Ernie tried to get to Alix or King George tried to save her, forit was useless and too late after Nickys abdiction.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 09:22:05 PM
@dmitri, well if you have read my reply carefully you must have noticed that I did not say Ernie had visited Alix in 1916, but it was said in the archive of our newspaper.
To be true, I did not believe in his attempt to help Alix, because during WW I everything changed and there was no chance for him to go there. But there is a book, very rare and it s about Ernies visit to Russia in 1916, in a conducteurs costume, he tried to get there on a train, but this attempt failed. The author published the book in the 1920s and no one really cared for the book, but it shall be based on historical facts. I keep it like that- I do not care if Ernie tried to get to Alix or King George tried to save her, forit was useless and too late after Nickys abdiction.

So you're saying there was a book on him having a visit in disguise published in Germany in the 1920's? Interesting!  This could be how AA got the idea! Can you tell us more? Who wrote it and when? More details? Thanks!
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ImperialHighness on August 17, 2007, 01:49:23 AM
There are two books- one is by Sergey of Markov and was published in 1929 by Amalthea and the title is "How I wanted to rescue the tsarina" (I ve translated the title for their is no English edition of the book). This one is fictional. A young soldier tries to save Alix and her children. But the book contains one historical theory about Ernie visiting Alix in 1916. That made me curious and so I searched for about three years for the other book, which is based on historical facts, mainly-
B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler. The book is not in good condition, the front page is torn, so I can t tell more. But it contains photos of Ernie and the family which I have never seen before. Maybe this book is just fiction and Ernie had never been to Russia in 1916, but the book shall be based on letters, diary entries, secret letters etc.
You ve asked and here is the information, whether it is true or not, so please do not blame me. ;)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: ashdean on August 17, 2007, 10:59:30 AM
There are two books- one is by Sergey of Markov and was published in 1929 by Amalthea and the title is "How I wanted to rescue the tsarina" (I ve translated the title for their is no English edition of the book). This one is fictional. A young soldier tries to save Alix and her children. But the book contains one historical theory about Ernie visiting Alix in 1916. That made me curious and so I searched for about three years for the other book, which is based on historical facts, mainly-
B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler. The book is not in good condition, the front page is torn, so I can t tell more. But it contains photos of Ernie and the family which I have never seen before. Maybe this book is just fiction and Ernie had never been to Russia in 1916, but the book shall be based on letters, diary entries, secret letters etc.
You ve asked and here is the information, whether it is true or not, so please do not blame me. ;)
There is an english edition of the Markov book !!!
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2007, 11:18:24 AM
There are two books- one is by Sergey of Markov and was published in 1929 by Amalthea and the title is "How I wanted to rescue the tsarina" (I ve translated the title for their is no English edition of the book). This one is fictional. A young soldier tries to save Alix and her children. But the book contains one historical theory about Ernie visiting Alix in 1916. That made me curious and so I searched for about three years for the other book, which is based on historical facts, mainly-
B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler. The book is not in good condition, the front page is torn, so I can t tell more. But it contains photos of Ernie and the family which I have never seen before. Maybe this book is just fiction and Ernie had never been to Russia in 1916, but the book shall be based on letters, diary entries, secret letters etc.
You ve asked and here is the information, whether it is true or not, so please do not blame me. ;)

Thank you very much for the information! No I do not blame you if it's not true, true or not, (probably not) we will never know but this is a valuable find for me because it proves there was talk of this going on as early as 1922 and in Germany so Anna Anderson COULD have known about it when she told her story, so there is nothing unique in her knowing about it! I appreciate this very much! I bet there is a lot more on AA in Germany and other countries Americans have never had access to, and a lot of it would really help to explain how she pulled off her charade if we can only find it.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 17, 2007, 10:57:49 PM
Are we not on the topic of the plane crash ?  ???
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 18, 2007, 09:08:38 AM
This link reproduces a picture featured in the book "Royals and the Reich". It is a photograph of Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh and other royal family members attending his sister Cecile's funeral after the plane crash


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=379036&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Helen on August 18, 2007, 09:29:32 AM
Those who can read German may also find the following publications interesting:

The first publication includes pictures of the coffins at the railway station at Darmstadt, the funeral procession on its way to the burial place, the bereaved at the graves, and of course several pictures of the deceased.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 18, 2007, 11:26:09 AM
Helen,

Are you able to post any of the picutes?

Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: dmitri on August 18, 2007, 11:35:13 AM
yes that would be very sad, but fascinating
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Helen on August 18, 2007, 01:08:49 PM
The coffins at the main railway station in Darmstadt:

Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig's son Prince Ludwig at the beginning of the funeral procession:

I think the picture in the Daily Mail article mentioned above may have been a cutout from a similar picture taken from almost the same position.

The funeral procession on its way to the Rosenhoehe through the streets of Darmstadt:

In the background, one can see Henschel's, which still exists.  This is where the funeral procession passed the Residential Palace, which is located on the right-hand side of the street.

The bereaved at the place of the burial pit at the Rosenhoehe:

The New Mausoleum with the sarcophages of Ludwig IV, Alice, Frittie and May is situated a few metres up the path in front of the bereaved. I'm not sure, but the trees in the background may be cypresses; some of the cypresses at the Rosenhoehe Park were imported from the Crimea in the 1900s.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 18, 2007, 03:13:11 PM
Thank you very much for sharing your pictures!
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Gabriella on August 18, 2007, 06:49:44 PM

 
That's the original picture the clipping was taken.

The picture was made on 19 November 1937, the day of the funeral of Eleonore, Georg-Donatus, Cecile and their two sons, when the mourners walk through the streets of Darmstadt to Rosenhöhe.

Prince Ludwig, Ernie's second son, as chief mourner walks in front. In the first row he' s followed by Prince Gottfried of Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Princes Christorph and Philipp of Hesse-Cassel, next Prince Philip (now the Duke of Edinburgh) and Prince Berthold of Baden. In the next row the man with the naval hat is Lord Mountbatten.The third row shows George Milford-Haven, his son David and Drino Carisbroke
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Gabriella on August 18, 2007, 07:23:15 PM
I found two other interesting pictures:



This one shows the chimney of the factory. which was damaged by the plane. On the right side on the roof you can see a part of the demolished wing.


This one shows the torched wreckage of the plane.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2007, 07:33:02 PM
Thanks for the sad but interesting historical pictures. I didn't even know they existed. Ludwig must have felt so bad they all died on the way to his wedding :'(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: dmitri on August 18, 2007, 11:33:55 PM
What a very interesting photo of Prince Philip at the funeral of his sister and brother-in-law and his two nephews as well as the mother of his brother-in-law .. how traumatic that must have been. I wonder whether he has ever recorded his thoughts on these losses? Certainly Prince Philip speaks fluent German which is not surprising.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2007, 12:11:16 AM
Thanks for sharing the pictures. They are very good... :)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Belochka on August 19, 2007, 05:22:52 AM
Fascinating photos and newspaper link.

Thank you both for sharing.

Margarita
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 19, 2007, 08:25:01 PM
Indeed ! There may be more at the Damstadt Archievs.  :)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 22, 2007, 11:11:44 AM
I found this information in the December 22, 1937 edition of The New York Times:

"Director Daems of the Ostend airport faces charges of manslaughter, according to Brussels newspapers, in connection with the airliner accident...."

"It is alleged the director failed to deliver instructions to the airplane not to attempt to land at Ostend"

Does anyone know if the director was formally charged or sent to prison?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 22, 2007, 08:16:27 PM
Wow ! I never heard about that before ?  ???
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 23, 2007, 09:30:33 PM
Here is a list of persons aboard the plane per news reports at the time of the accident:

Antoine Lambotte, 37 (pilot)

Maurice Courtois, 38 (radio operator)

Invan Lansmans, 32 (mechanic)

Dowager Grand Duchess Eleanore of Hesse bei Rhein

Grand Duke George Donatus of Hesse bei Rhein, 31

Grand Duchess Cecilia of Hesse bei Rhein, 26

Prince  Ludwig of Hesse bei Rhein, 6

Prince Alexander of Hesse bei Rhein, 4

Baron Joachim von Riedessel, member of the grand-ducal retinue

Fraulein Nina Hahn, Lady in Waiting (also described as a  nurse)

Herr Martens, a German Glider Expert

Later news reports mention the stillborn child (one article states the child was in its own coffin at one point: "The baby's body lay in a coffin tonight in the Ostend Hospital, where also lay the flower-wreathed bodies of the prince's (Ludwig) mother, his brother and his sister-in-law, and their two son's). So far, I've not found any references to the sex of the stillborn child.

Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 23, 2007, 11:46:48 PM
Did Cecilie gave birth on board the plane ?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Marlene on August 24, 2007, 09:22:35 AM

She certainly gave birth during the crash ...  as the body of a stillborn child was found in the rubble.

Did Cecilie gave birth on board the plane ?  ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
It is difficult to say she gave birth. Perhaps went into labour is a much better description as it is hard to imagine a live birth occurring with the umbilical cord cut and so on. It truly was a terrible tragedy. How very much modern aviation has changed since then.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 24, 2007, 05:42:21 PM
In my opinion, it seems that there are two likely scenarios concerning the "birth" of the child.

First, Cecilie may have gone into labor prior to the crash and given birth on the plane.

The second scenario would have been caused by trauma sustained during the crash and post impact fire. In the second case, I think the forces from the crash and destruction of the aircraft likely caused catastrophic injuries to the passengers. Not to be insensitive, but the shearing and penitrative forces from the crash may have released the baby as a result trauma to the abdomen. I doubt "birth" in the traditional sense could have occurred in the last moments of the flight after it struck the factory.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
I don't think that Cecilie should have gone on the trip being that pregnant. Birth and death at the same place...how sad... :o
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 26, 2007, 11:17:17 PM
Weren't there two Ludwigs in the family, one beeing the son of Georg Donatus and the other his brother? Georg Donatus died in the plane crash on his way to the wedding of his brother Ludwig along with his son, unborn child, wife and mother.

Later news reports mention the stillborn child (one article states the child was in its own coffin at one point: "The baby's body lay in a coffin tonight in the Ostend Hospital, where also lay the flower-wreathed bodies of the prince's (Ludwig) mother, his brother and his sister-in-law, and their two son's). So far, I've not found any references to the sex of the stillborn child.

Wikipedia lists a "stillborn son" as being one of the victims.     i can't remember for certain, but i think the book Royals & the Reich: The Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany by Jonathan Petropoulos, also mentions it having been a boy.   i don't have the book in front of me, so i can't check....anyone else have the book at hand?

.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 02:27:00 AM
Well it is still able to determine the sex of the stillborn child.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 27, 2007, 02:52:18 AM
Well it is still able to determine the sex of the stillborn child.  :(

what is?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on August 27, 2007, 05:01:48 PM
I checked "Royals and the Reich" and could not find any reference to the stillborn child.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on August 27, 2007, 08:19:39 PM
would they even be able to tell...i mean....wouldn't the body be charred?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 08:59:43 PM
Yes, but there would still be the remains of a baby.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Belochka on September 03, 2007, 10:37:30 PM
This image is posted on behalf of rgt9w:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/HessePlaneCrash.jpg2.jpg)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Alixz on September 04, 2007, 04:08:17 AM
In the case of a still born child.

Here is the US the Scott Peterson trial.  Scott Peterson killed his pregnant wife and dumped the body into the waters off California.

Lacey Peterson's baby was born (expelled) post mortem and the baby's body was found separate from his mother's.

The same type of "birth" could have happened to Cecilie during the plane crash.  Perhaps forensics were not as advanced in the 1930s and so they could not know the same things as those who found Lacey Peterson's child.

Also, in the pictures that were so kindly posted, I noticed many Nazi uniforms.  They are unmistakable.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2007, 04:42:28 AM
This is getting to goulish...Let the baby and her mother R.I.P. Amen.  :(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Alixz on September 04, 2007, 05:06:32 AM
Sorry -   :-(

The Hessian family did have more than its share of tragedy over the years.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2007, 05:15:57 AM
Indeed...However this is too graphic for me...almost as bad as the shooting cellar... :o
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on September 04, 2007, 06:19:46 AM
This is getting to goulish...Let the baby and her mother R.I.P. Amen.  :(



but isn't discussion & exchange of ideas what "discussion boards" are all about?   

it's human nature to want answer unanswered questions.   or to, at least, try.     the death of princess Diana is another good example.   most people don't like "loose ends" because they represent "an unknown" factor, and, generally speaking, human beings really don't like the unknown....so if no answers are given, we try to provide answers ourselves.

besides that, some of us just like the speculation involved with mysteries. ;-)


.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on September 04, 2007, 10:12:44 AM
I think this is from Ludwig & Margaret's wedding day. Margaret is wearing a hat with a veil (hard to see in the scan--in the newspaper it's clearer) and corsage and it seems the text (in German) says it's the wedding. If not, it's from right when they got to Germany and were attending to the funeral. The paper also had a picture of Don, Cecile and the children so it seemed closer to the wedding day.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/Picture3300lupegW.jpg)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on September 04, 2007, 05:05:52 PM
The Washington Post at the time of the wedding printed the same picture and the description describes it as taken on Ludwig and Margaret's wedding day.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2007, 09:03:20 PM
Sad...What a sad wedding.  :'(
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: José on September 05, 2007, 09:10:58 AM
Is there a guestlist for this grim wedding ?

Thanks in advance
José
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on September 05, 2007, 04:58:41 PM
I need to amend my earlier post about the wedding picture. I posted my response without my notes. The photograph was published in the Manchester Guardian on 18 Novermber 1937, not the Washington Post. The caption witht the photograph reads as "Prince Ludwig and Miss Margaret Geddes after their wedding in London yesterday"


I've not seen a published guest list, but newspapers of the time reffered to the wedding as a "private" affair. I don't know if that means the wedding was scaled down after the accident.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on September 05, 2007, 07:38:54 PM
According to "Royals and the Reich" by Mr. Petropoulos (page 94), he names a few of the wedding guests as "Marina, Duchess of Kent, and several members of the Mountbatten family joining Ambassador Joachim von Ribbentrop..."

I have enclosed a link to the obituary of Margaret Geddes (the bride). It is intersting that it states she had planned on wearing "Bavarian peasant dress" to her wedding prior to having to wear mourning colors to her wedding

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970130/ai_n9644265
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on September 05, 2007, 08:13:51 PM
There were criminal charges filed against Director Daems of the Ostend air strip. I don't know any more details--just that he was being brought up on charges of  'homicide by indifference' in Belgium. I didn't find a follow-up.

It was also suggested in the Belgian papers that the plane tried to make its landing because Cecile went into labor--she had been due in just 6 weeks. The baby's body was in a separate coffin in the Ostend hospital (where all the bodies were). This is the first place that Louis & Peg had to go after being married--to identify the bodies.  :'(

The couple were married in St Peter's Church at Eaton Square. Sir Auckland Geddes had made an appeal that the couple be given privacy due to the tragedy, compounded by the fact that Ludwig had also lost his father the month prior. Louis Mountbatten was best man--his brother would sadly die about 6 months later in April 1938. The Duke & Duchess of Kent were there as was German Ambassador von Ribbentrop. Ludwig gave the Nazi salute as he left the church.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2007, 08:25:06 PM
I did spoke to the author of "The Royals & the Reich"...He did not know any more apart from what he has written. One of his sources was Prince Rainer of Hesse.  :)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on September 05, 2007, 08:37:24 PM
Thank you Grandduchess Ella and Eric for the additonal information. I also wanted to thank Belochka for posting the crash photo for me.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2007, 08:39:31 PM
You are welcome, just trying to share what I know with others.  :)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kurt Steiner on September 07, 2007, 01:09:35 PM
You are welcome, just trying to share what I know with others.  :)

That's the best present you can give, Eric.

Thank you all. Each little thread of this forum is a little wonder.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 09, 2007, 09:21:19 PM
Thanks again. I hope more people can do that instead of just critizing others without giving and sharing info with others.  ;)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on June 11, 2011, 12:50:33 PM
A link to some brief news footage of the time:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=13927
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Sunny on June 11, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
I didn't know ANYTHING about this terrible accident - it's simply terrible. I'm not superstitious, i don't believe in curses and something, but knowing the story of Ernie and his family, and reading all this, one could really think there are cursed family.
It's simply dreadful.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Ilana on June 12, 2011, 11:02:50 AM
Fascinating footage!
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kalafrana on June 13, 2011, 08:24:03 AM
A quick look at wikipedia shows that the range of the pre-war version of the Junkers JU 52 was about 600 miles. Presumably the reason for the intended stop at Brussels was therefore to refuel, and it seems possible that what made it necessary to land at Ostend despite the fog was the fuel situation rather than the Grand Duchess going into labour, especially with a sea crossing to follow. Of course, if the pilot was low on fuel as well as having someone in labour on board, it was absolutely imperative to land and therefore the pilot made the decision to land at Ostend.

Where had the aircraft taken off from?

Of course, at that time there was no radar and so the aircrew and air traffic control were entirely dependent on the Mark 1 eyeball to avoid obstacles while landing.

Ann

Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Sunny on June 13, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
I was talking to my brother in law yesterday (he's studying to become a doctor, or better, he's quite a doctor), and told him about this plane crash and the corpse of the little baby; i don't want to talk about that - is too horrible - but he confirmed that even if Cecilie died in the crash, is medically correct to think that the labour had started due to the shock, and it went to an end since it was started - even if she died during the time the labour was over.
I'm sorry i "digged" this subject again - it's horrible even to think - but wanted you to know what a doctor said.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 14, 2011, 01:19:20 PM
It was a terrible thing and too awful to go through the details. Cecilie should have stay home and have her baby than take that trip.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Sunny on June 14, 2011, 01:21:33 PM
yes, but who could imagine?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 14, 2011, 01:30:47 PM
Still. In fact Tsarina Alexandra did not come to England for her beloved grandmama's furneral because she was pregnant with Anastasia. Cecilie should not be going as it seems her delivery time was so near. 
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: blessOTMA on June 14, 2011, 04:05:57 PM
Eric I have to agree...a women in her 8th months should not have been flying ....or  really traveling such a distance at all....also I don't understand everyone in one plane. Just temping fate. Very sad
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Sunny on June 15, 2011, 12:54:26 AM
Oh, yes, Eric, i didn't understand in what sense; yes, you're really right. She was too pregnant.
Maybe they thought it was 36 years later and this made better security for a pregnant woman? Don't know.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kalafrana on June 15, 2011, 04:11:28 AM
According to earlier posts, the aircraft took off from Cologne, which is some 200 miles from Ostend. Assuming it started with a full fuel load, it would have reached London, another 130 miles or so, with no fuel problems.

Ann
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Svetabel on June 15, 2011, 04:27:05 AM
Still. In fact Tsarina Alexandra did not come to England for her beloved grandmama's furneral because she was pregnant with Anastasia. Cecilie should not be going as it seems her delivery time was so near. 

Such comparing is not correct. Alexandra was the Empress and could give birth to the heir of the throne. That's why she stayed at home.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kalafrana on June 15, 2011, 06:12:18 AM
Nevertheless, at a time when pregnant ladies tended to retire from view, it seems a little surprising that Cecile was travelling to a wedding when eight months pregnant.

Ann
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 15, 2011, 07:00:52 AM
I totally agree with you that it is odd that she chose to travel at that stage of her pregnancy. The whole concept of flying is still far from safe and accidents do happen.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: blessOTMA on June 15, 2011, 05:33:38 PM
While the children were not heirs to a throne , they were heirs to the title...it would be a questionable action regardless imo.  Thanks for that info Ann. It helps to explain why they were in a plane at all...it was but 200 miles and perhaps time was short? ....but airline travel was still very much in its infancy then and it just seems strange. I imagine the boys were part of the wedding party and that's why they were there...then the sadness of the little daughter left at home who  therefore survive the crash ...only to die two years later from an illness... 
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 16, 2011, 10:18:04 AM
The whole thing was too tragic for words. The dynasty need not have perished had Cecilie and the boys stayed home.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kalafrana on June 16, 2011, 01:02:45 PM
THings happen.

I wonder whether they decided to fly because it seemed that it would be easier for Cecile than a lengthy land journey plus a sea crossing.

But I'm still surprised at someone who was 8 months pregnant travelling anywhere, brother-in-law's wedding notwithstanding (I'd have expected George Donatus to go by himself, maybe taking the boys).

Ann
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 16, 2011, 01:08:32 PM
In some cases, the ruler do not travel with the heir. When Ena married Alfonso XIII in Madrid, George & May went to the wedding but Edward VII & his grandson Prince Edward (David) stayed behind. Had George & May got killed in Madrid because of the bombs, the succession will still be in tact with Edward VII going to Edward VIII. I didn't know why all three males are on the plane...
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on December 18, 2012, 09:38:19 AM
Coryne Hall wrote an article about the 75th anniversary of the crash. It was published in the November 2012 issue of Majesty Magazine. Of interest, it included photographs of Baron Joachim von Riedesel (Prince Ludwig's best man) and the nanny, Nurse Lina Hahn. I had never seen photographs of them before.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2012, 06:08:23 PM
Yes I bought a copy. It was from a booklet issued after the crash. This issue also included some good photos from Robert Golden's new book.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on December 21, 2012, 06:26:30 PM
I'll have to get a hold of that one! I buy it sometimes, when the historical articles are good, but it's hit & miss finding it at bookstores here each month.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Vecchiolarry on December 21, 2012, 08:11:45 PM
Hi Ella,

I would advise that you subscribe to "Majesty" a year at a time, as I do....
It is a good magazine and comes each month on time;  unlike a similar magazine that was very good but now has a haphazard delivery and concentrates on celebrities more than royalty.

I only pay for a years subscription though as one never knows when any publication these days is going to cease with no notice.

Larry

PS - now back to the topic of the Hessian crash.....
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 21, 2012, 10:39:35 PM
Indeed good articles for a reasonable price.  ;)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 22, 2012, 02:15:55 AM
My grandmother had dancing lessons with Joachim von Riedesel in the 1920ies - in 1926 her parents invited some guests for an informal dinner and dance and everyone had to sign the guestbook with a little self-made poem. The young Riedesel wrote a charming line.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2012, 11:05:48 AM
Thanks for sharing that titbit. He seems a very charming & handsome man. How did he become close to the Hesse brothers ?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on December 22, 2012, 07:49:55 PM
Thomas, thank you for sharing the information about your grandmother.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on December 22, 2012, 09:28:17 PM
I hopped right out and managed to get the only copy at Barnes & Noble. :)

Larry--I have thought about a subscription but I don't get even the majority of issues. I only buy them when there's a historical article I'm interested in. However, there have been more and more of them lately so perhaps I will rethink it. On a personal note, I was crushed because, in the article on Definitely Royal...there was a photo of Queen Sophie. I had bought an old magazine page years ago because of this exact image. I had never seen it anywhere before or since and was holding onto it in case I EVER get around to doing any books. Now it's out there! I'm so bummed. :(  That's what one'll get for procrastinating!

Anyway, back on topic--the article has a few photos from the memorial booklet that was published after the crash. They are unique ones. The booklet has been for sale twice on ebay if anyway ever wants to keep an eye out for it. Once in ebay and once in ebay.de. I don't know how many were produced.

The article didn't mention it, but the newspapers widely reported that, given that a infant's body was recovered in the crash, perhaps the reason the plane attempted to land was because Cecile had gone into labor. I was always surprised she was on the plane--nowadays, you aren't allowed to fly past a certain point in the 3rd trimester given the changes in air pressure. I wonder, in those earlier days, how much was known about it. Sadly for the family, she wasn't prohibited from flying.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 22, 2012, 09:51:20 PM
That picture I know Bobby would use it (the photo on Queen Sophie) as he found it after he published his second book.

That issue is out of print now in DC...

Would love to look out for it...
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on December 22, 2012, 10:03:21 PM
I still intend to use it someday but boy was it deflating. :/  Still, the book is one of my Christmas presents this  year. I love all his books and the anecdotes he uses to accompany them.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Gabriella on December 23, 2012, 03:59:30 PM
I would like to read the article in Majesty magazine and add it to my collection about the grandducal family of Hesse.
Sad, Majesty magazine is neither sold at Frankfurt Central main station nor in the shops at the airport.

Could somebody scan it and send it via email? Visit my profile to get my email address. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on December 23, 2012, 10:54:40 PM
I could if you don't mind waiting until the end of the week since I'm away on vacation. I invested last year in a handheld scanner. :)
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 24, 2012, 02:27:31 AM
Thanks for sharing that titbit. He seems a very charming & handsome man. How did he become close to the Hesse brothers ?

The Barons Riedesel were an old Darmstadt noble family - they'd had high positions at court for centuries and therefore the boys might have had their lessons together
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 24, 2012, 02:31:34 PM
Thanks for the information on the Riedesel Family. Love to know more about them. Do they know VMH or Irene too ?
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Gabriella on December 25, 2012, 09:39:58 AM
The Riedesel family is a hessian noble family. They were involved with the Hesse-Darmstadts and Hesse and by Rhiny for centuaries.

As a Baron Riedesel of Eisenbach was the major-domus of Wolfsgarten in time of Eleonore and Ernst-Ludwig I am certain that members of the Riedesel family were in touch with Prince Ludwig and Princess Margaret as well with Lord Louis Mountbatten and I also assume with Prince Philip the Duke of Edinburgh.
 
Despite that Joachim of Riedesel who died in the plane crash was a close friend of Prince Ludwig as well as Prince Georg-Donatus and Prince Cecile.
Prince Ludwig had chosen him together with Lord Mountbatten as best man. That's why he was in the plane.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Gabriella on December 25, 2012, 10:01:36 AM
A refreshing to my post:

I think that members of the Riedesel family had known Victoria and Irene, too.

Victoria was in Wolfsgarten many summers when Ernst-Ludwig was still living. Afterwards Victoria often accompanied by Ernst-Ludwig and Eleopnore made her trip to Irene who was still living in Hemmelmark. From their she went back to Wolfsgarten to catch Prince Philip who spent his summer vacations with Georg-Donatus and Cecile in Wolfsgarten before visiting his Mountbatten uncles or the Kerrs in Great Britain.

Irene and Heinrich had also been to Wolfsgarten in the the 1920ies, and as Prince Ludwig and Princess Margaret were in touch with Irene's  granddaughter
Barbara as well as  Sophie of Greece and her sisters and their spouses and family I assume their had been touch between both familys.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 25, 2012, 01:19:28 PM
Thanks for the extra information. I wonder if Prince Philip remained close to the Riedesel family since he was in Darmstadt a lot and was at the funeral of his sister. After the War, he and his son Charles remained close to Lu & Peg Hesse. Maybe that circle included the Riedesels too...
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: grandduchessella on December 25, 2012, 09:10:09 PM
Joachim's full name/title was Joachim Riedesel Freiherr (Baron) zu Eisenbach. One of his relatives is listed in a book on the Third Reich elite, receiving a posthumous promotion and being a recipient of the Knight's Grand Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves.

The ties continued into the modern day with another branch of the family--Marie Battenberg/Erbach's descendant (I think great-granddaughter), Countess Ulrike of Stolberg-Wernigerode (born 1940) married, as her second husband, Kurt-Joachim Riedesel, Baron zu Eisenbach in 1972. They have 2 children.

A  Maria Franziska Riedesel zu Eisenbach  (1717 - 1785) was an ancestress of Julie Hauke so there was a blood tie as well.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 26, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Thanks. This give a new dynamic to the relationship. They must be one of the local aristocratic families that the Hesse family has close ties with. Not a lot of books touched upon that subject. It would be nice to read books by this section on the lives of Alicky, VMH & Ducky since they are not directly involved. The insight would have been more interesting.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on January 06, 2013, 11:19:19 AM
Does anyone have a listing of the jewels taken on the flight?  Were any of the actual jewels lost?

According to Geoffrey Munn's "Tiara's" book, the moonstone and turquoise tiara survived the crash:

http://img1.imagilive.com/0112/grandduchessofhesseturqouiseandmoonstone.jpg

According to "Hesse: A Princely German Collection", Princess Alice of Hesse's tiara given to her by her mother, Queen Victoria, also survived the accident:

http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/615674tiara.jpg

I have read that the lace worn by Hessian Royal brides was destroyed.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2013, 01:44:41 PM
I think the tall tiara & diamond star tiara that Cecile wore were destroyed. The turquoise & crystal tiara survived because it was put in a strong box that survived the crash.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: rgt9w on January 06, 2013, 06:26:22 PM
Hi Eric,

Thank you for the response. I am surprised that all of the jewels were not kept in strong boxes, but even if they were there is no guarantee that they would have survived depending on how the aircraft broke apart.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2013, 11:11:23 PM
Welcome.

I think that was kept in the strong box since it was meant to be a gift for Peg. I read she wore it a few times, but I never seen it in a photograph.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: The Test Card Girl on December 09, 2016, 06:26:17 AM
It seems foolish in retrospect, not only allowing Cecile to fly in her condition, but having all the Hesse and by Rhine males on the plane!

Even if little Princess Johanna had survived 1939, the crash meant that there would no more male line descendants.
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: Kalafrana on December 10, 2016, 02:11:24 AM
I can't help thinking that with her pregnancy so far advanced, she should have stayed at home, leaving her husband and boys to go by themselves.

Ann
Title: Re: Hessian Plane Crash 1937
Post by: The Test Card Girl on December 15, 2016, 03:13:39 AM
Even if she had stayed home, the shock of their deaths might have caused her to lose the baby... just look at Buddy Holly's wife after The Day The Music Died.