Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Tudors => Topic started by: Prince_Lieven on August 06, 2005, 02:58:47 PM

Title: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 06, 2005, 02:58:47 PM
I think Henry VII suffers from being in his son's shadow. I consider him a much beeter king in most ways - he made the country rich again, he brought stability and he abolished private armies. What do you all think of him?
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 06, 2005, 03:38:10 PM
I think he was a bit of an old misery guts  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 06, 2005, 03:41:15 PM
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I think he was a bit of an old misery guts  ;D ;D ;D


Well, thanks for contributing, Kim.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 06, 2005, 03:51:13 PM
My pleasure, sorry just finished work. He was though, cold ,dour and no particular right to the throne (Yep,I am a sworn Ricardian)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: lexi4 on August 06, 2005, 10:04:37 PM
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I think Henry VII suffers from being in his son's shadow. I consider him a much beeter king in most ways - he made the country rich again, he brought stability and he abolished private armies. What do you all think of him?



I am confused ?? How does Henry VII suffer from being in his son's shadow?
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 07, 2005, 05:36:21 AM
henry 7th is my favorite tudor king ;D.

i think he wanted to be the quiet type. he wanted to be discrete with everything he did and that's why people don't remember him much nowadays. but i think it was a controlled quietness. he was very calculated and i think he was very good for his country at a time when everything was pretty much chaotic.

henry 8th was more charismatic, true, but i think he did more harm than good, while with henry 7th it was the other way around. :)

and you yorkists back off :P... he was a great king and he did what he had to do! :P
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: bluetoria on August 07, 2005, 05:59:59 AM
I see Henry VII as a cruel, cold-hearted, ambitious usurper!  ;D His treatment of Catherine of Aragon after Arthur's death was appalling.
I know he did some good for the country and began to bring about some stability but U di not think as a character he was pleasant at all!
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 07, 2005, 06:11:45 AM
i can't judge a character 500 years after his death.

i think he did what he had to do most of the time. yes, he wasn't very friendly to catherine but compared to his son he was actually sweet :P
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: bluetoria on August 07, 2005, 06:13:00 AM
To make this extremely superficial  ;D I think on his pictures he has a mean face!
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 07, 2005, 06:32:53 AM
depends on which pictures. i think he looks calculated and a bit cold but not mean... except for his mask which was made when he was already an old man and you shouldn't judge someone by their old age face :)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: umigon on August 07, 2005, 07:29:16 AM
nor by their young one... ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 07, 2005, 07:50:16 AM
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My pleasure, sorry just finished work. He was though, cold ,dour and no particular right to the throne (Yep,I am a sworn Ricardian)


I'm a Ricardian too. I'm not saying I like Henry VII, I just saying that I think he's rather underrated as a king.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 07, 2005, 08:40:37 AM
"He wanted to be discrete with every thing he did". Hmmmmm sounds like a man with something to hide 8) And I agree with Bluetoria on the portrait thang.... just look at that mean, cruel, narrow mouth. Nasty piece of work. Just ask Ryskkia what she thinks.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: bluetoria on August 08, 2005, 04:06:54 AM
Well to quote Shakespeare, "There's no art to readthe mind's construction in the face..." but both young & old he has a sort of grasping ambition about his features which I think was evident in his behaviour:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/bluetoria/Henry20VII.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v289/bluetoria/Hen.jpg)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on August 08, 2005, 04:42:14 AM
I think of Henry VII as a cold-hearted, ambitious *bleep*. I won't say any more.


PS.I am *bleeping* because I am still fuming  over Micheal Kasprowicz's dismissal at the Ashes. Hit his glove my @$$!! He wasn't even touching the bat!!Sorry about that....


Back on the topic, I also think that Henry VII's treatment of Catalina of Aragon was simply AWFUL.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 08, 2005, 08:51:38 AM
Ra-Ra Amelie * does mexican wave in agreement* ( don't like cricket though  ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 10, 2005, 12:41:13 PM
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"He wanted to be discrete with every thing he did". Hmmmmm sounds like a man with something to hide 8) And I agree with Bluetoria on the portrait thang.... just look at that mean, cruel, narrow mouth. Nasty piece of work. Just ask Ryskkia what she thinks.


not all people who are discrete have something to hide. not something awful anyway, cause then we all have stuff we don't wanna shout to the world.

the times were hard and he had to be careful who he confided in. there were many people after his throne and he knew it.

edited to add: about the paintings... it depends on the artist... here are some in which he doesn't look like a villain:

(http://www.newgenevacenter.org/portrait/henry-vii.jpg)

(http://tudorhistory.org/henry7/younghenry7.jpg)

this one was painted around 1500 when he was still alive (doesn't look that bad, does it?)

(http://tudorhistory.org/henry7/henry72.jpg)

(http://tudorhistory.org/henry7/henry.jpg)


Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 11, 2005, 02:24:07 AM
Oh gosh...look at the top picture. Now would you, honestly buy a used car off this man ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 05:31:54 AM
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Oh gosh...look at the top picture. Now would you, honestly buy a used car off this man ;)


Depends how much he's asking LOL!!
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 11, 2005, 11:59:07 AM
ugh

i think he looks nice :P
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 11, 2005, 01:02:18 PM
Oh perrrrrlease....well we will have to agree to disagree.
Portrait 1 -Dodgey used car salesman (apologies to all you used car salesmen out there)
Portrait 2 - Feigned innocence-I didn't kill the Princes....honest guv'nor
Portrait 3 - Looks intelligent here though...look, he's counting on his fingers how many Yorkists he has yet to kill.
Portrait 4 -If I purse my lips I look like Anna Anderson (whoops wrong thread)
;) ;) Regards Kim xxx
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Mgmstl on August 11, 2005, 01:18:26 PM
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"He wanted to be discrete with every thing he did". Hmmmmm sounds like a man with something to hide 8) And I agree with Bluetoria on the portrait thang.... just look at that mean, cruel, narrow mouth. Nasty piece of work. Just ask Ryskkia what she thinks.



Not as cruel & devious as his predecessor Richard III, who murdered his own nephews.  I love the way the Ricardists try to revise history. He looks like someone who keeps his own counsel, and wisely so.  

Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on August 11, 2005, 05:32:49 PM
Quote
Oh perrrrrlease....well we will have to agree to disagree.
Portrait 1 -Dodgey used car salesman (apologies to all you used car salesmen out there)
Portrait 2 - Feigned innocence-I didn't kill the Princes....honest guv'nor
Portrait 3 - Looks intelligent here though...look, he's counting on his fingers how many Yorkists he has yet to kill.
Portrait 4 -If I purse my lips I look like Anna Anderson (whoops wrong thread)
 ;) ;) Regards Kim xxx




LOL....
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 12, 2005, 08:18:29 AM
*sighs and shrugs*

we probably won't agree ever :)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Arianwen on August 14, 2005, 01:01:15 PM
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Not as cruel & devious as his predecessor Richard III, who murdered his own nephews.  I love the way the Ricardists try to revise history. He looks like someone who keeps his own counsel, and wisely so.  



Hey, hey, what about the Tudorists and THEIR revision of history after Richard's death? Don't even get me started on More's shoddy scholarship...

Also, keep in mind that Richard has been twice tried and twice acquitted by modern-day courts of the murders of his nephews. I mean, your opinion is your opinion, but please don't state it as fact. We don't even know if the boys died during Richard's reign, let alone that he had them killed. I'm not too fond of Henry VII, but I'm certainly not going to go about insulting him. He was an extremely able administrator, and he seems to have genuinely cared for his wife, as we have reports of him being grief-stricken at her death, and he never did remarry, despite negotiations. He left his son a full treasury, a throne mostly secure, and a carefully-acquired prestige among the other courts of Europe. None too shoddy for a Welsh adventurer...;)

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 14, 2005, 03:43:32 PM
........ and usurper.... ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Arianwen on August 14, 2005, 03:52:13 PM
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........ and usurper.... ;)


lol As always, that one depends on your point of view, but I'm inclined to agree with you. Can't imagine why, of course...;)

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 18, 2005, 05:15:11 AM
from many points of view, richard 3rd was himself a usurper :)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 18, 2005, 10:28:09 AM
I am not going to go there today........I am feeling a bit "precious" 8)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Mgmstl on August 18, 2005, 12:03:18 PM
Quote
from many points of view, richard 3rd was himself a usurper :)


Sure he was....I mean think about he got there, killed his two nephews, spread rumors about his mother being unfaithful to his father & his brother being illegitimate, may have been behind the Duke of Clarence's issues...  He is the king of usurpers ;D ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 25, 2005, 07:34:09 PM
i don't think at that point it even mattered. i think at that point the people were just sick and tired, wanted peace and a good ruler.

henry 7th gave them that.

problem solved ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 26, 2005, 03:08:28 AM
Yes he did.....after bumping off a few Yorkist remnants ;)
Given a chance I think Richard would have been a very wise and fair ruler and there would have been peace in the land, if the way he managed the north of the country is anything to go by.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 26, 2005, 03:46:52 AM
rest assured that had richard won the battle of bosworth, he would have bumped off some lancastrians himself :P
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 26, 2005, 05:07:30 AM
Oh, on that point I have no doubts Ilyala ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: umigon on August 26, 2005, 07:36:44 AM


Finally your'r discussing again Richard and Henry! Fantastic, I was wondering why this thread was so mute!
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 26, 2005, 08:35:33 AM
Went a bit quiet yesterday didn't it. I blame Prince Lieven....he singed his eyebrows whilst blowing out his birthday cake candles you know ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 26, 2005, 08:36:55 AM
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Went a bit quiet yesterday didn't it. I blame Prince Lieven....he singed his eyebrows whilst blowing out his birthday cake candles you know ;)


<sigh> It's true . . . it will be months before I can leave the house . . .  ;)

At least that means no more school!  ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 30, 2005, 08:05:59 AM
 ::)


as long as you had fun...  8)

happy birthday


on the subject of henry, he rules :D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 08:22:09 AM
Thanks ilyala. Yes, as a monarch, Henry ruled.  ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 30, 2005, 09:59:45 AM
and he ruled very well too ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 10:01:03 AM
I certainly agree with that, whatever anyone thinks of his character.  . .
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 30, 2005, 10:03:59 AM
i don't think he was as bad as people made him out to be. he was living in an insecure environment (take into consideration people thought of him as just another king... after the wars of the roses) and he had to make it secure... very few people would have been more mercifull than him
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 10:08:55 AM
He was very merciful - he preferred to fine rather than execute.  ;D And as a result, he made England rich. He also very cleverly abolished private armies, one of the contributing factors of the Wars of the Roses.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on August 30, 2005, 10:21:58 AM
exactly
he did what he had to do ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 30, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
No comment except I still say he was a miserable old Bu**er :P
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: RussMan on August 30, 2005, 04:07:40 PM
I've always found Henry VII to be one of my favorite Tudor monarchs! :D

It's a damn shame that he doesn't get more credit for all that he accomplished. He brought the English back together after the tragic Rose Wars and established a very successful realm, both financially and socially.

True, he was odd looking. He reminds me of Ebenezeer Scrooge, hehehe. Tall, lean, and money grubbing. ;)

Quote
I think Henry VII suffers from being in his son's shadow. I consider him a much beeter king in most ways - he made the country rich again, he brought stability and he abolished private armies. What do you all think of him?


Yeah, he does suffer a lot from being in his son's shadow. I think you're right, here. I don't know why Henry VIII gets so much credit when his father did all the work. ::)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 04:12:27 PM
Yes, Henry left his son a financially secure relam that Henry VIII had bankrupt within a matter of years . . .  >:(
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 30, 2005, 04:28:34 PM
Come on lads, what do you expect me to say..loyalty binds me! ;)(its ok my tongue is firmly in my cheek)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 30, 2005, 04:29:51 PM
OH YES!!!!!! now I am not only a domestic goddess, I am now A GOD HEEHEE
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 04:34:34 PM
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OH YES!!!!!! now I am not only a domestic goddess, I am now A GOD HEEHEE


Congratulation Your Holy Worshipfulness . . . a temple is already being constructed.  ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on August 30, 2005, 04:42:37 PM
Yeah, and I will probably have to clean it ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 04:43:55 PM
Of course - you did say you are a domestic goddess.  ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: RussMan on August 31, 2005, 01:45:59 PM
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Yeah, and I will probably have to clean it ;D


Hey, that's the divine right of monarchs, you know. ;D
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on September 05, 2005, 10:50:52 AM
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Yes, Henry left his son a financially secure relam that Henry VIII had bankrupt within a matter of years . . .  >:(




it is still a mistery to me why henry 8th was so popular...
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 05, 2005, 10:51:39 AM
I agree. He was a total tyrant.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on September 05, 2005, 01:34:39 PM
True but around the time he started to court Anne Boleyn he was a very handsome man. He was compared to his grandfather Edward IV who was also "god like" and handsome. Its no wonder he aged into a bitter, sour old tyrant when his bloated, abused body gave up on him.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: umigon on September 05, 2005, 01:39:13 PM


When he flirted with Anne for the first times, he already had that horrible ulcer, didn't he? At least I think I can remember reading that it was starting to appear. I suppose that all the stress caused by the Divorce issue led him to become an obese person!
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 05, 2005, 01:42:27 PM
Perhaps they liked him because he was a larger than life character?
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on September 06, 2005, 07:33:59 AM
apparently he was a very charismatic person, like edward 4th was... but the truth is that he didn't do much for england imo

unlike his father who was the total opposite
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: RussMan on October 05, 2005, 05:07:30 PM
Quote
apparently he was a very charismatic person, like edward 4th was... but the truth is that he didn't do much for england imo

unlike his father who was the total opposite


Henry 8 seems to me like a much more jolly type person, one who like to socialize, big feasts, that kind of thing. Hence, his obesity.

Cheap guys like Henry7 never seem to be as popular.

Take Charles I and II, for example. Charles II liked to party, flirt, and in general have a good time, while Charles I was serious and devoted to his family. The family type man doesn't seem to be as interesting as the party goer. Just look at our own Western society nowadays, hehehe.  ;)

I also have a suspicion that Henry 7 was a suspicious type monarch, too. Let's face it; he was always worried about any possible Yorkist revolts against him; he faced at least two.

So mi guess he just wasn't so much a warm, fuzzy type character. ;)
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: ilyala on October 07, 2005, 02:13:10 AM
true, but i think he did a lot of good for england
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Selencia on May 05, 2014, 01:20:59 AM
Henry VII is one of my favorite Kings. He was a good king who brought peace to England and governed well. Wanting to fine instead of execute is also a plus in my book. How such a same rational man with his sweet same rational wife could produce a psycho like Henry VIII is beyond me.
Also I think H7 was much better looking than his son who even when he was young looked like a bloated frat boy.
Title: Re: Henry VII
Post by: Kimberly on May 06, 2014, 08:55:50 AM
Better looking!!! He had a squint.
Anyhoo, can I recommend this book;
" Winter King, Dawn of Tudor England" by Thomas Penn.
I have read that there is a field of thought that Henry Tudor/Tydier/Tydderr was possibly NOT a "Tudor" at all !!! If anyone is interested I will find and post the info I have. I think I read it in John Ashdown Hill's book.
Oh and I don't think Henry's dealings with the supposedly "half - witted" Earl of Warwick was very magnanimous.