Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Lizameridox on August 06, 2005, 06:49:23 PM

Title: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lizameridox on August 06, 2005, 06:49:23 PM
1.  The DNA

2.  The excuses she made for not speaking Russian.  

3.  No real evidence that the Tsarevich and the Grand Duchesses ever started lessons in the German language
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 06, 2005, 09:07:42 PM
A little correction in the last one, Greshniya: The Imperial Children DID attend German lessons, even in Tobolsk. They are recorded. I think they attend German lessons three days a week, starting 8 in the morning, and ending at 9. I must check the proffessor that teach them in Peter Kurth book, and the days they did.

But now, some other reasons about why AA was not Anastasia:

4-One time when she attended Church in Berlin, she crossed herself as a Roman Catholic. Harriet Rathlef denied it. (Peter Kurth)

5-She never could repport a real story about Ekaterinburg murder,her escape and who rescued her (Peter Kurth, Castelot, Robert K. Massie, Decaux)

6- She mistaked a doctor with a relative (Peter Kurth)

7-Gilliard wrote (later) that she have "no ressemblance" with her pupil, and that "her ears, her hairs, her nose" are totally different than Anastasia's one. The only ressemblance was in the eyes. (Castelot, Decaux, Robert. K. Massie. Jimy Blair Lovell)

8- Darya Hessé, daughter of the later Commandant of the garnison at Tsarkoe Selo didn't recognized her, laughed at her and said she was an impostor (Peter Kurth)

RealAnastasia.

More to come!  ;)
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lizameridox on August 06, 2005, 09:32:56 PM
(Was it only Mr. Kurth that said that the Grand Duchesses were learning German?  Alexei never spoke a word of it, anyhow.  I have read in other sources that Alexandra Feodorovna was not interested in having her daughters learn to speak German, particularly once the Great War had begun.)

9.  Anna Anderson hid her face during certain confrontations with people that knew the Imperial Family.

10.  After a while Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna had her doubts about the entire matter.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 07, 2005, 02:55:42 PM
11-AA said that her mother  liked to be more with Maria than with anyone of OTMA. We know that Alexandra liked, over all things, to be with Tatiana. (Harriet Von Rathlef- Peter Kurth)

12- AA said that she wasn't allowed to smoke, but that Tatiana and her liked to smoke and did it. (Actually, OTMA were allowed to smoke. There are some snapshots with them doing it) (Harriet Von Ratlef; Peter Kurth)

13- Most of the time, AA wouldn't meet the people that her supporters wanted introduce to her. It was like if she had afraid of they wouldn't recognize them or them doesn't recognize her. (All the books written about AA)

14- She became very angry when someone would doubt that she could have been Grand Duchess Anastasia (James Blair Lovell)

15-She didn't recognize Irene at the first glance in Funkenmühle (Peter Kurth).

16-Nobody could find the slightless evidence about the existence of anyone named "Alexander Tchaikovsky". There was no Tchaikovsky fellow in the murder squad. (Peter Kurth; Penny Wilson; Greg King)

17- Nobody could find any evidence of AA living in Rumania, as she claimed. (Peter Kurth; Blair Lovell)

To be continued!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: etonexile on August 07, 2005, 03:01:52 PM
Are we mostly of a mind that AA was not AN....finely?
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lizameridox on August 07, 2005, 05:57:15 PM
18.  When the bones found in the Koptiaki forest were analyzed, the Russian scientists declared that the two children missing from that particular grave were the Tsarevich and his sister Marie Nikolaevna; and when the remains were laid to rest, Russia accepted the fact that Anastasia Nikolaevna's were among them.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 07, 2005, 08:42:05 PM
19- Some historians doesn't believe that anyone could possibily have survived the Ipatiev Massacre. The Romanov bones were too damaged , and show they have suffered great destruction. Experts believe the destruction was done BEFORE they death. (Robert K. Massie)

20- The two missing corpses were not found, but some experts wouldn't said this mean them surviving. They must be somewhere in Koptiaky Forest. (Robert K. Massie)

21- AA couldn't recall how many time the Romanov spent in Ekaterinburg (Peter Kurth)

RealAnastasia.

More to come!  ;)
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 08, 2005, 05:26:22 PM
22. People who "recognized" AA/FS as AN were offered lfinancial incentives from the "Grandanor corporation", should AA/FS win recognition in the courts.  
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 08, 2005, 07:35:49 PM
23- AA was sometimes very haughty whit people who tryed to help her. As far as I know, Anastasia wasn't a bit haughty, nor would said things as: "I'm the daughter of YOUR Tsar!" (Peter Kurth, Harriet Rathlef, Decaux, Jimmy Blair Lovell)

24- She was always upset when people comes to know her, for she didn't like to prove who she was (Peter Kurth, Blair Lovell, Auclères).

25- When the Judges, in the Germany Trials wanted her to a depositon of her case, she said she wouldn't go. (Dominique Auclères, Peter Kurth, Alain Decaux, Robert K. Massie, André Castelot)

26- One of the witnesses in the Germany Trials, Lacher, who was in the "execution squad" in the House Ipatiev, (in those times we doesn't know he was shooting, but inestead, he said he was locked in his bedroom , and saw what was happening by a window), wrote that Anastasia was died when he saw Yurovsky's men loading the corpses in the truck. He swore that he saw, indeed ELEVEN CORPSES loaded in the truck. (Dominique Auclères-Peter Kurth)

27- AA was always speaking about her "past" as if there was the only thing in the world about what she really cared. And she was always saying strange remarks in the middle of normal conversations, over the lines of: "Yes; this weather recall me my hometwon"; "Charlottesville is very similar to Tsarkoie Selo". "This man is like Yusupov when he was young; all people would fell in love with him" (Peter Kurth; Harriet Rathlef, Blair Lovell)

More to come!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2005, 09:17:02 PM
While the kids probably did study German, it was the least used of their languages. The family spoke Russian and English, and French was the language of the court. Even German relations Ella, Ernie, and the Kaiser all spoke and wrote to the family in English. (Alix, Ella, Ernie and their siblings were German but also half British, they had an English nanny and spent much time with Queen Victoria, especially after the death of their mother at a young age, so they used more English than German all their lives) So it is very unlikely German would have become Anastasia's main and best language, quite the opposite, it would be the lesser of the four.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2005, 09:22:23 PM
28. She never claimed to be a Grand Duchess until someone at the asylum said she looked like Tatiana. She only changed to Anastasia after Sophie B. said she was too short to be Tatiana.

29. Felix Yussoupov pronounced her a 'frightful playactress'

30.Olga Alexandrovna, who was very close to her niece, said she had a special bond with Anastasia, and it wasn't there, it wasn't her.

31. She got the finger story wrong, saying she "Anastasia" got it shut in a carriage door, really, it was Marie who shut a finger in a train door.

32. Her story of escape from Ekaterinburg is unrealistic and unverifiable. Her 'rescuer' did not exist.

33. She had very different bone structure, a much larger mouth, fuller lips, and a completely different shaped chin than Anastasia.

34. While people sometimes use AA's alleged resemblance to Marie F. as evidence, the real Anastasia looked nothing like her grandmother, other than in height. She had blue eyes, Marie F. had brown. She had different shaped features. Anastasia, in the last pic I ever saw of her, resembled her aunt, Olga A., more than any relative. I was just reading Lili Dehn's book, and in it she had letters she had gotten from Alexandra while the family was in captivity in which Alexandra said that Marie was thinner, but described Anastasia as 'short and stout'. (not petite and dainty)
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 09, 2005, 09:21:57 PM
Be careful not to write down reasons ALREADY written for other "Palace Members". We had already pointed that Alexander Tchaikovsky seems to have been a made up character by AA who couldn't explain her escape in another way.

33-Tchaikovsky is a name too close to Schanskovsky. He could have been FS and not AN (I read it in this Forum, and I think it's a good reason to note here)

34-At first, she didn't recognize Volkov who didn't seem to knew her, anyway. (Peter Kurth; von Rathlef, Blair Lovell)

35- She was confused when Gilliard visited her in the hospital. She didn't recognize him.    (Peter Kurth)

36- It was not clear if she knew Sophie Buxhoeveden (Peter Kurth; Blair Lovell)

More to come!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 09, 2005, 09:42:00 PM
Quote
Be careful not to write down reasons ALREADY written for other "Palace Members". We had already pointed that Alexander Tchaikovsky seems to have been a made up character by AA who couldn't explain her escape in another way.

33-Tchaikovsky is a name too close to Schanskovsky. He could have been FS and not AN (I read it in this Forum, and I think it's a good reason to note here)

.


Sorry about the double. But I don't think she made up the name because it was like hers, I think she chose it because it was what she came up with. Let's see, a Russian name, a popular Russian name is Alexander, and, oh man, what about a last name, oh yeah, that famous composer, what was his name? Tchiakovsky! That's where I think she got the name, made it up from the first Russian associated names she came up with.


PS you need to renumber yours, I have up to 34
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Finelly on August 09, 2005, 09:52:18 PM
I would just like to mention that I am hypnotizing Annie via pm and am confident that sometime in the next 50 years I will have her completely convinced of my way of thinking.  She will also be voting Democratic and will enjoy listening to Barry Manilow.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 10, 2005, 06:46:51 PM
Again...This is not a thread to argue about reasons. But I'm only saying this: "Is Tchaikovsky a so common name in Russia? This seems a joke but, Romanov is a more, more common name than Tchaikovsky. As for Tchaikovsky...It is not a name of Polish roots? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I read somewhere that the musician Tchaikovsky was of Polish heritage?

RealAnastasia
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 12, 2005, 03:09:57 AM
Didn't Anna Anderson write a book? I've read it, but can't remember it that well. I think that's where she wrote about how she smashed her finger in the train door, but it was really Maria. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.  :P
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: jeremygaleaz on August 12, 2005, 09:34:49 AM
Quote
Again...This is not a thread to argue about reasons. But I'm only saying this: "Is Tchaikovsky a so common name in Russia? This seems a joke but, Romanov is a more, more common name than Tchaikovsky. As for Tchaikovsky...It is not a name of Polish roots? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I read somewhere that the musician Tchaikovsky was of Polish heritage?

RealAnastasia


The name does have Polish roots, but has come to be associated with Russia.  
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2005, 11:30:05 AM

CZAJKOWSKI - TCHAIKOVSKY

See Post #1

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1123861894;start=0

AGRBear

Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 12, 2005, 06:42:59 PM
Quote
Didn't Anna Anderson write a book? I've read it, but can't remember it that well. I think that's where she wrote about how she smashed her finger in the train door, but it was really Maria. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.  :P


You must be meaning the Von Nida 's book: "I, Anastasia" (or "I am Anastasia", it depends if you are in the States or in England) Anna Anderson didn't write a book. She had no skills as a writer. Von Nida wrote it using the first person, "I" as if AA herself would have wrote it.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 12, 2005, 07:00:52 PM
37- AA indentified Alexandra's room wrongly seeing some Tsarkoe Selo photos that appeared in a magazine (Pierre Gilliard: "La Fausse Anastasie"; Castelot; Decaux)

38- Gilliard claimed that AA copied Anastasia's signature many times, until she was able to sign like the Grand Duchess. (Pierre Gilliard; Castelot; Decaux)

39- Gilliard claimed that AA's teeth were not broken by pistol butts, as she said, but otherwise. Teeth smashed by a pistol but, are close one to another. AA had lost many teeth all over her mouth. (Pierre Gilliard; Castelot)

40- AA mistook Shura Tegleva with Olga Alexandrovna herself (Pierre Gilliard; Castelot)

41- AA had not the same voice than Anastasia (Pierre Gilliard)

42- She was reluctant to submit to medical test (André Castelot; Alain Decaux)

More to come!

RealAnastasia.

P.S: I recall that this is a thread to note "reasons". The fact we post them, would no mean that we share them. Here they are and we must write them here. But, of course, all these deserves and MUST be duscussed. Bear opened already a thread, to discus the reasons we are writing in this one: 101 reasons AA was not GD Anastasia. Who wants to open another ones for the other similar threads: "101 Reasons to AA was FS"; "101 Reasons to AA was not FS"; and "101 Reasons to AA was GD Anastasia". Bear opened "101 Reasons to AA was not GD Anastasia".

Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: stepan on August 13, 2005, 05:19:23 PM
The imperial dentist Serge Kastritsky examined casts of AA´s teeth brought to him by George von Leuchtenberg. He said it was impossible it could be G D Anastasia´s teeth.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: etonexile on August 13, 2005, 06:32:10 PM
And yet...some will believe..... ::)
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 13, 2005, 11:44:17 PM
I don't want to seem mean or something, but don't forget to NUMBER your reasons. The dentist is the reason number "43". You must also quote the source of your quote, for people could go and read it. I know you read it in Peter Kurth, so, I note it. And you must be more precise in your quotes too: the dentist doctor DIDN'T said AA teeth doesn't match with AA ones. He only said that AA teeth were in bad condition, and that him, as an imperial dentist couldn't have left a Grand Duchess Teeth in such a bad condition. He also stated that he didn't recall him treating GD Anastasia's teeth. It's different that the reasons you stated.

And fot those who spoke about "those who still believes", AGAIN I repeat: We must quote here all the reasons we knows about AA being not Anastasia but that doesn't mean that we share what other people said about AA. In fact, some of these reasons are found fake when analyzing them. Too many people lied speaking about this case, and now we REALLY KNOW they lied. This is the facts we must discuss AFTER the 101 reasons in all AA threads are done, not here. I don't believe many of the reasons some people gave for her not being AA and other reasons are contradictory or we may discuss them to found an answer. But when I write that  "Once AA crossed her as a Roman Catholic", I 'm not saying I believe this is the truth, (for other people said she didn't do this). Is this clear or not?

Thank you for being so gentle and to read with patience, my long and boring posts. I'm also grateful to people who made humourous remarks and keep those threads, a little dry and not too hilarious, alive and interesting.

RealAnastasia.

P.S: REMEMBER: 43...
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2005, 06:20:05 AM
Quote

That makes mine at number 45 then.
I believe why AA was cremated when she died was because so that no one could ever discover that she was not AN but they eventually did by DNA


Another thing I have thought of too. She was raised a devout Russian Orthodox, and they oppose cremation.

And if she were really Anastasia, wouldn't she want her body presevered, considering what had happened to the others? This is a clue that shows me not only was she not AN (of course she wasn't) but that even in her old age, she knew it.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Georgiy on August 18, 2005, 04:24:28 PM
Annie, if she were Anastasia, she wouldn't want her body preserved, as Orthodoxy does not allow embalming.

Blanche, all Orthodox Christians, be they Russian, Greek, Serbian, Japanese, Romanian, Arab etc cross themselves in the following way, which incidentally was the way the Roman Church also crossed themselves until the last crusade:

"In the name of the Father" touching the head
"And of the Son" touching near the navel
"And of the Holy Spirit" touching first the right shoulder then the left.

We don't go from head to chest, because that makes the cross upside-down. We use our right hand for crossing with. Our thumb is joined to our index and middle fingers, symbolising the Trinity. Our ring and middle fingers are closed onto our palm. The two fingers representing the divinity and humanity of Christ; they are folded down onto our palm to symbolise that He came down from Heaven.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Mgmstl on August 18, 2005, 04:29:47 PM
Quote
I have two questions:

1. Do they cross themselves in the Russian Orthodox religion?

2. How did they manage to get AA's DNA if she was cremated?



Blanche there was a piece of tissue in storage at the Martha Jefferson Hospital in Charlottesville, VA.  from a previous operation,  for details see the other survivor threads.   From that sample the dna sample was obtained.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2005, 05:29:59 PM
Quote
I have two questions:

1. Do they cross themselves in the Russian Orthodox religion?


Witnesses are said to have seen AA cross herself the Catholic way (which is opposite of the Orthodox way)

Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: AGRBear on August 18, 2005, 06:50:57 PM
Please, please, please,  remember to number your  101 reasons as you post.

I have set up a Discussion 101 Reasons AA was not GD Anastasia and so we need to keep all of these things in some kind of order.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1123861894

You can use your "modify button" and incert the number and then post same message.

I'll thank everyone, now,  because I'm sure you'll want to  cooperate.

AGRBear
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 18, 2005, 07:34:48 PM
43- She was sometimes too reiterative speaking about who she was: for example, she would say "I'm your Tsar Daughter", in a very haughy manner. The Tsarina would never teach their daughter to speak like this. The girls were always very polite when they asked for things to their servants. AA called poor Harriet Rathlef, the woman who fighted so har for her "A Servant", and a "Lett" (Peter Kurth; Harriet Von Rathlef; James Blair Lovell)

45- After her father death,  one of the Baron Von Kleist's daughters said that AA was not Anastasia . Her mother still believed that AA was the lost GD, but the woman said with a certain disdain, that her mother was plainly crazy (Peter Kurth; Dominique Auclères)

46-Some witnesses claimed that AA manners were not "royal". They saw her cleaning her mouth with the napkin and even her nose (Peter Kurth)

47-Pierre Gilliard claimed that AA confounded some of the rooms of Alexander Palace with other rooms for she read wrong infos in a magazine (Pierre Gilliard: "La Fausse Anastasie")

48-When doctors in Dalldorf asked her who she was and she finally spoke, she said in a not very sure way: "I'm a worker" (Peter Kurth)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 18, 2005, 07:42:24 PM
Just a little word: Why an Orthodox would not change his/her religion? AA always said that she had not the same beliefs than her "mother", that she didn't believe in the same God than her any more. "God let me alone"-she said to Harriet Rathlef- God punished me. Why? What I did to deserve that?" She wasn't an Orthodox any more and she said it more than once, even if she participed in some Orthodox services in Seeon, with the Leuchtenbergs. She was more close to the antroposophie believs than to Orthodox ones.

But in this thread, we are supposed to said that AA was not Anastasia, and we must demonstrate it. You know it's againts what I really think, but I must search for all the arguments who shows that she was not AN.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on December 20, 2005, 08:18:04 PM
This is a pretty obvious one:

49. Anna Anderson looked nothing like Anatasia - AA's eyes bug out and have huge bags under them.

50.  Anna Anderson understood Russian but was never communicatively competent in it - not exactly normal for a Russian GD.  The obvious reason why: Anna was FS and raised on the Polish border where she would have been regularly exposed to Russian and would have to know some of it to get around but would not have to possess extensive communicative ability in it.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Lemur on July 19, 2007, 10:24:26 AM
22. People who "recognized" AA/FS as AN were offered lfinancial incentives from the "Grandanor corporation", should AA/FS win recognition in the courts.  

This is interesting! I'd like to know more about this "Grandanor corporation.' I have suspected it was something like that but of course the Anderson supporters who write books would never tell you that. Jeremy if you're still around can you tell us how you found out? I'll investigate it more if you give me a lead.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on July 19, 2007, 04:43:07 PM
22. People who "recognized" AA/FS as AN were offered lfinancial incentives from the "Grandanor corporation", should AA/FS win recognition in the courts. 

This is interesting! I'd like to know more about this "Grandanor corporation.' I have suspected it was something like that but of course the Anderson supporters who write books would never tell you that. Jeremy if you're still around can you tell us how you found out? I'll investigate it more if you give me a lead.

I'd like to hear what he knows, but I did find this today:

http://www.serfes.org/royal/rememberingAnnaAndersonii.htm

Dr. Gunther Von Berenberg-Gossler (attorney opposing AA in 1955 trial)

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler believes that although wishful thinking in Russian émigré circles played a part in the affair money was the principal motivation behind Anderson's claims, the supposed lost fortune of the tsar estimated at US$80.000.000.

"I believe it was at the beginning of the 1930's a corporation (Grandanor) came into existence," he says, "which sold certificates in proportion to tsarist gold roubles allegedly held by the Bank of England and redeemable if or when Anderson should "inherit" said funds. Naturally these papers were not worth anything, they served only to enrich the initiator".


Who was 'the initiator?' It does look like Jeremy was onto something, that there really was a company that was selling shares of promised Tsarist fortune to people should AA win her case. It's not out of the question to assume there may have been some who supported her ,or testified on her behalf, in hopes of this payoff? How many of them owned shares? Who knows, maybe even her silbings denied  and kept her claim alive for a promise of this share!

Money and greed can do TERRIBLE things to otherwise good people. I have seen this myself personally in real life. So don't assume it can't happen.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 20, 2007, 06:13:13 AM
There is a reasonably full account of the Grandanor corporation in Peter Kurth's book.  I can't quote you chapter and verse as I don't have the book at the moment but there is a bit of detail about who set it up and why.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on July 20, 2007, 09:36:32 AM
There is a reasonably full account of the Grandanor corporation in Peter Kurth's book.  I can't quote you chapter and verse as I don't have the book at the moment but there is a bit of detail about who set it up and why.

"Full" account? I don't think so, because if anything made AA or her buddies look bad, I bet he wouldn't have told it.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on July 20, 2007, 10:36:59 AM
Precisely. Kurth's so-called book is full of holes as large as a swiss cheese. It should be a must be comedy writers as it is so hilarious and obviously completely unobjective. It is good though for pulping or using as a fire starter in winter. 
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 11, 2007, 04:31:37 AM
Precisely. Kurth's so-called book is full of holes as large as a swiss cheese. It should be a must be comedy writers as it is so hilarious and obviously completely unobjective. It is good though for pulping or using as a fire starter in winter. 

That's an opinion, Dmitri.  Not a fact.  Speaking of which, this was meant to be 101 reasons why AA was not AN.  I think we are only half way through ...
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on August 11, 2007, 05:43:59 AM
I wonder who would be so desperate to want to know any more!!!
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 11, 2007, 06:10:09 AM
I wonder who would be so desperate to want to know any more!!!

Ah, Dmitri.  The search for knowledge is not a desperate act!    In any case, why use a title of 101 reasons AA was not AN unless there were 101 reasons?   ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on August 11, 2007, 09:15:08 PM
There is no need for further knowledge about the fraud Anna Anderson. It has all been revealed in all its boring detail.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 11, 2007, 09:29:42 PM
There is no need for further knowledge about the fraud Anna Anderson. It has all been revealed in all its boring detail.

If you find the topic "boring", why do you pursue it (and the people who still have questions)?
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 11, 2007, 09:47:34 PM
There is no need for further knowledge about the fraud Anna Anderson. It has all been revealed in all its boring detail.
It is the total truth the problem is people still refuse to believe in the real facts, yet they still continue to belive what they want to. I guess he thinks it is so boring because he may be sick of us talking about AA and being focused on her often, nothing more than just an Polish peasant woman who was a fraud. People can believe whatever they want but that is just their choice.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 21, 2007, 05:55:27 PM
There is a reasonably full account of the Grandanor corporation in Peter Kurth's book.  I can't quote you chapter and verse as I don't have the book at the moment but there is a bit of detail about who set it up and why.

"Full" account? I don't think so, because if anything made AA or her buddies look bad, I bet he wouldn't have told it.

So, have you looked this up and determined that there is nothing about Grandanor in Kurth? I found otherwise. I would be most interested in hearing about your research.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 21, 2007, 07:28:55 PM
There is a reasonably full account of the Grandanor corporation in Peter Kurth's book.  I can't quote you chapter and verse as I don't have the book at the moment but there is a bit of detail about who set it up and why.

"Full" account? I don't think so, because if anything made AA or her buddies look bad, I bet he wouldn't have told it.

So, have you looked this up and determined that there is nothing about Grandanor in Kurth? I found otherwise. I would be most interested in hearing about your research.

Why, yes, I have! But what I was saying is that you will never get the entire story from an avid Anderson supporter when it concerns something possibly negative about her or her supporters. In my research, and I have done quite a bit recently, I have found out a lot from other sources, especially an interview with Dr. Berenberg- Gossler who was the opposing attorney for AA. All sides need to be examined, so we need to look beyond only the defenders of AA for our information.

Your brutal crackdown of late seems to be very much in favor of AA supporters. There is another forum they can all hang out at, where those with opposing views are not welcome to even lurk. I had thought we on this forum were free to speak out about how we really feel about her claim and supporters without being censored. If things have changed, and AA and her supporters are to be protected from all possible allegations, and questions about their opinions, let us know now.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 21, 2007, 11:57:39 PM
I agree, Annie.

This site should be a safe haven for people to express their views on the topic at hand without fear of personal attack.  Perhaps the site moderator will intervene?

Kind regards
Sophie
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: dmitri on August 22, 2007, 12:04:02 AM
Yes a range of opinions should most definitely be recorded.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 01:01:57 AM
I agree, Annie.

This site should be a safe haven for people to express their views on the topic at hand without fear of personal attack.  Perhaps the site moderator will intervene?

Kind regards
Sophie

The Forum is intended for discussion of matters of interest to our membership. It's not necessarily a "safe haven". We do have rules and standards.

I am very strict when it comes to personal attacks. I have seen none, but if you have found them, please feel free to report them to me or the FA.

I am the Moderator of the Survivor section. I had some concerns with the Survivor Section several weeks ago. I have spoken to Bob Atchison, the owner of this site and Forum, and he has asked me to remain as Moderator. I agreed. I also spoke to the FA, and he also asked me to remain. In other words, I have the complete support of both of them to moderate this part of the Forum as I see fit.

That said, you are entirely welcome to complain about how this is being moderated should you find that you are dissatisfied.

I hope this explains what you were asking about.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 01:27:07 AM
There is a reasonably full account of the Grandanor corporation in Peter Kurth's book.  I can't quote you chapter and verse as I don't have the book at the moment but there is a bit of detail about who set it up and why.

"Full" account? I don't think so, because if anything made AA or her buddies look bad, I bet he wouldn't have told it.

So, have you looked this up and determined that there is nothing about Grandanor in Kurth? I found otherwise. I would be most interested in hearing about your research.

Why, yes, I have! But what I was saying is that you will never get the entire story from an avid Anderson supporter when it concerns something possibly negative about her or her supporters. In my research, and I have done quite a bit recently, I have found out a lot from other sources, especially an interview with Dr. Berenberg- Gossler who was the opposing attorney for AA. All sides need to be examined, so we need to look beyond only the defenders of AA for our information.

Your brutal crackdown of late seems to be very much in favor of AA supporters. There is another forum they can all hang out at, where those with opposing views are not welcome to even lurk. I had thought we on this forum were free to speak out about how we really feel about her claim and supporters without being censored. If things have changed, and AA and her supporters are to be protected from all possible allegations, and questions about their opinions, let us know now.

It's unfortunate that moderating this section on a daily basis is viewed as a "brutal crackdown". For whatever it's worth, Annie, this part of the Forum is the very toughest to moderate. I try very hard to be fair to everyone, but I have taken exception to the following:

1. Off topic posts
2. Repetitive posts - such as "this is boring". I'll allow that from the same poster on occasion, but endlessly, no.
3. Confusing opinions with evidence
4. Personal attacks

For the record, and those who believe in Survivors know this, I personally think that:

1. AA was not Anastasia
2. AA was most likely FS
3. The whole family died that night.

However, just because I think this does not mean that anyone who thinks differently is not welcome to post here. By now, most of the people you would label as "AA supporters" don't bother to post here, for a variety of reasons. So, there is really no need to protect them, as they don't come here and probably will not in the future.

This section of the Forum is not a free-for-all. However, if there is a topic you'd like to discuss, I would encourage you to start a new topic. As long as the posts are within our guidelines, you are welcome to put them up. If you find this to be "censorship", so be it.

There are those (not necessarily you) who say they want a variety of opinions, but in reality, what they really want to do is be agreed with. I guarantee you, if a purported "Anna Anderson supporter" tried to examine any part of her case here, that person would be sent packing - not by me - but by all those who find this discussion "boring".

By the way, what did you determine about Kurth and Granador?
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 22, 2007, 02:52:48 AM
I agree, Annie.

This site should be a safe haven for people to express their views on the topic at hand without fear of personal attack.  Perhaps the site moderator will intervene?

Kind regards
Sophie

The Forum is intended for discussion of matters of interest to our membership. It's not necessarily a "safe haven". We do have rules and standards.

I am very strict when it comes to personal attacks. I have seen none, but if you have found them, please feel free to report them to me or the FA.

I am the Moderator of the Survivor section. I had some concerns with the Survivor Section several weeks ago. I have spoken to Bob Atchison, the owner of this site and Forum, and he has asked me to remain as Moderator. I agreed. I also spoke to the FA, and he also asked me to remain. In other words, I have the complete support of both of them to moderate this part of the Forum as I see fit.

That said, you are entirely welcome to complain about how this is being moderated should you find that you are dissatisfied.

Lisa, I personally feel you are doing a fine job as moderator.  A fine job!  No problem at all!  The only negative in my comment was that you cannot be everywhere at once.  No one can.  And perhaps "safe haven" was not quite right.  But I do feel that on occasion that there are those who belittle those who do not agree with them and I, personally, find this quite unnecessary.  But I will certainly take your advice and report them in future!

I hope this explains what you were asking about.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: Annie on August 22, 2007, 07:01:45 AM
Quote
By the way, what did you determine about Kurth and Granador?

I already told you in the above post my opinion on that matter.

And if we all have a right to our opinion why doesn't that include continuing to state that AA was FS in threads questioning her about AA's identity? Because some people are 'bored?' Some people are bored with a lot of the things AA supporters do too.
Title: Re: 101 Reasons AA was not Anastasia Nikolaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 01:05:31 PM
Quote
By the way, what did you determine about Kurth and Granador?

I already told you in the above post my opinion on that matter.

And if we all have a right to our opinion why doesn't that include continuing to state that AA was FS in threads questioning her about AA's identity? Because some people are 'bored?' Some people are bored with a lot of the things AA supporters do too.

You did state your opinion but you did not support it. Or perhaps you don't  want to discuss it beyond stating your opinion?

As much as possible, I would like for there to be discussion of substance. Wouldn't you?

I'm not sure I understand the rest of your questions, but you are welcome to PM me if you think that would help. (or not if you think it wouldn't).