Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Stuarts of Scotland => Topic started by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 03:47:28 PM

Title: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 03:47:28 PM
I beleive this was requested, so here it is!

Feel free to discuss Charles I, Henrietta Maria, Charles II, James II, Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, Princess Elizabeth and Princess Henriette Anne, Duchesse d'Orleans.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on August 10, 2005, 04:13:12 PM
i read somewhere that during the civil war cromwell and the gang thought of henry as a potential king... apparently they talked to him and he seemed like a reasonable person and like he had potential to be a good future king...

unfortunatly he died young like his uncle (who was more prommising than charles...)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 10, 2005, 04:51:46 PM
Before he was executed Charles I spoke to Henry and told him he must never, ever let himself be made king while Charles and James were alive.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:20:06 PM


Well, Henry must have been an obedient child, Charles also made him promise he will never become a Catholic, and Henry, even though he lived in Paris with Queen Henrietta and under the protection of his aunt, Queen Regent Anne of Austria, both of whom tried to make him become a Catholic, he died an Anglican!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 05:41:33 AM
I feel particularly sorry for Elizabeth. Since Henry was only about 9 when Charles was executed and Elizabeth was 14, the burden of looking after him fell on her. She was found dead in her room in Carisbrooke Castle with her head on one of her Anglican religious books. The sad part is, just before her death Cromwell had resolved to send her and Henry to live with their sister the Princess Royal in the Netherlands. with her death, Henry was left alone, but was soon shipped to France.

IMO, Henrietta Maria trying to convert Henry was an awful thing to do. Charles, her son, was furious with her, and it provoked a large family row. In fact, the only one of Henrietta Maria's children who ended up Catholic was her youngest, Minette, who was to all intents and purposes a French woman.  
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 05:52:10 AM
Not only Minette, don't forget James II and Charles II, who was a Catholic in private and who would convert in his death bed!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 06:28:54 AM
DUH!! <slaps own head very hard>. Sorry umigon! I totally forgot about James and Charles. Looks like I was having one of Kim's senior moments!!!!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 06:34:15 AM



I suppose, because it is easy to forget about Charles, but James??? hahaha


yes, Minette was a French woman in all aspects!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 06:40:54 AM
Minette was Charles' favourite sister. some say she was the only woman he ever really loved. There was 14 years between them. Both Mary and Henry died in 1660, the year of the Restoration. Henrietta Maria outlived 6 of her nine children, did she not - Charles James, Anne, Katherine, Elizabeth, Mary and Henry all predeceased her. Not that she was a very loving mother, mind you.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 06:54:27 AM

She is not one of my favourite royals, but I think she is quite misunderstood and that she really had VERY bad press!


She was more a practical woman than anything else, but she did love her children. (I am not saying you said the contrary!). Maybe she loved them in an egoistical way, but that is something!


For example, abandoning Minette when she was just a newborn can seem something abominable, but it was a practical thing to do. Minette wasn't a desired child, product of the last interview between Charles and Henrietta. She was escaping from England when she delivered the baby. Escaping with a newborn baby was an awful setback and Henrietta, a practical woman as she was, "abandoned" her baby in order to escape to France. She knew Cromwell wouldn't dare harm her little daughter, so in the end it was safer for Minette to stay in England.

A less practical and selfish mother would have probably  remained in England with her daughter, standing in front of Cromwell no matter what would her fate be (probably the axe).

In my opinion, I think that she was so unpopular amongst her British subjects and she had so bad press, that we can't have a clear image of what kind of person she really was...
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 07:28:00 AM
I entirely agree. I admire Henrietta Maria for making it as a woman in a man's world, not unlike Margaret of Anjou, wife of Henry VI. However, there were some aspects of her that the English did not like - she was French, and never stopped being French. She was a Catholic, and the English hated Catholics. Also, she showered the King with awful advice that he followed to the letter. Her advice might have worked if Charles was King of France, but as a King of England he was not the absolute monarch Louis XIV was.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 07:38:36 AM
Yes, I entirely agree. She was the most important advisor that Charles, and the most loyal aswell. But you can always see in both that practical way of acting - not always the best one, of course.

I can imagine Henrietta saying : " The Parliament is a pain in the neck for you, mon cher??
well, then get rid of the Parliament, Charlie!" Don't you?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 07:50:28 AM
She never really understood the limitations of Charles' power, and though he should be an absolute monarch like her nephew Louis . . .  And yet she did care for her children after a fashion. there is a story of a French friend visiting her and Minette in exile in France. The friend found Minette in bed with Henrietta Maria by her side.

'This is my little Henriette,' the Queen said, 'But I have forbidden her to rise this morning because there is no fire.'
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 06:36:25 AM
Here's another little anecdote: When Henrietta Maria finally became used to her eldest son's lechery she agreed to see his current mistress and eldest illegitmate son. Queen Catherine was also present - so what a party it must have been! Henrietta Maria (the matriarch), Charles II (the King), Catherine (the wife), Lady Castlemaine (the current mistress) and James, Duke of Monmouth (the son by another mistress)!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 15, 2005, 09:25:54 AM


WoW!

Where did you get those anecdotes from??


Do you know anything about Henrietta Maria's impression when presented to her grandson (she was only 40 years old when she became her grandmother!).?

And what did Catherine think about all of it?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 15, 2005, 09:44:47 AM
Both those anecdotes come from a book called 'Five Queen Consorts' where two of the Queens profiled where Henrietta Maria and Catherine, I beleive.

Hmm . . . I couldn't tell you exactly what Henrietta Maria thought of Monmouth, but she was so pious I don't doubt that she dissaproved.

As for Catherine, she never liked Lady Castlemaine (who incedentally also later bedded Monmouth when he was about 14) but she eventually realised that Charles was never going to change, and she accepted the presence of his mistresses.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 16, 2005, 05:43:58 PM
How fashionalbe being pale was in those days! Look how pale Henrietta Maria is here!

(http://www.wga.hu/art/l/lely/henriett.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 17, 2005, 11:21:50 AM
James II:

(http://www.galway.net/galwayguide/history/hardiman/chapter6/james_ii.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 17, 2005, 11:30:06 AM
And Mary of Modena, James II's second wife:

(http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1680/mary_mod_2.jpg)

Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on August 18, 2005, 05:34:21 AM
i find it interesting that james, such a fervent catholic, married anne hyde the way he did... she was a protestant... she was not of high rank... there was a huge scandal...

any paintings of her?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 18, 2005, 05:55:34 AM
Ilyala, here's a pic of Anne Hyde.

(http://www.kipar.org/period-galleries/paintings/1660/anne_hyde.jpg)

James was not a Catholic when he married her. In fact, he did not want to marry her at all. He was having and affair with her when he was in exile in Holland, and she coerced him into a secret ceremony. Then he made her pregnant. When his brother was restored to the throne, he didn't want the marriage to stand, and Anne caused a right bru-haha about it. Eventually, Charles II made James stand by his word and they had a second marriage ceremony in England.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on August 25, 2005, 08:52:27 AM
how did she die?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 25, 2005, 08:57:01 AM
Thanks for posting ilyala! I thought this poor thread was dead in the water!  :)

Anne died of cancer shortly after giving birth to her daughter Katherine (who also died soon after).

Obviously, Mary II and Queen Anne were her only two surviving children, though she also gave birth to:

1. Charles, Duke of Cambridge (his death was almost a releif - since people doubted the legitimacy of James and Anne's first marriage service he was looked on as a bastard)

2. James, Duke of Cambridge

3. Charles, Duke of Kendal

4. Edgar, Duke of Cambridge

5. Lady Henrietta Stuart

6. Lady Katherine Stuart.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on August 25, 2005, 07:39:58 PM
ugh so many dead children! what is wrong with this family?

if i'm not mistaken, anne had 14 children and none of them outlived her!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 26, 2005, 07:43:42 AM
James II then married, as you all already know, Mary of Modena, who gave him another 13 children of which only two, James Edward and Louise Marie, survived childhood. Louise Marie then died aghed 20!


About Anne, she actually had 18 children and yes, none of them outlived her!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 26, 2005, 07:50:42 AM
James and Mary of Modena had a daughter called the Lady Isabella, who lived to be four I beleive . . .

Here are Anne's children in full:
1. Stillborn daughter, born 1684.
2. Lady Marie, born 1685. Died 1687.
3. Lady Anne Sophia 1686-1687.
4. Stillborn child 1687
5. Stillborn son 1687
6. Miscarriage 1688
7. Stillborn 1688
8. William Henry, Duke of Gloucester 1689-1700
9. Lady Mary 1690
10. George 1692
11. Stillborn daughter 1693
12. Stillborn child 1694
13. Stillborn daughter 1695
14. Stillborn son 1696
15. Stillborn twins 1697
16. Stillborn son 1697
17. Stillborn son 1698
18. Stillborn son 1700.

New research suggests that Anne's children could have been saved by an aspirin. Apparently, Anne's blood was too thick to go through the placenta to the child, so the child was weakened and died easily. An aspirin, of course, thins the blood, so . . .

BTW, Anne's sister Mary II had three stillborn children.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on August 26, 2005, 08:40:38 AM


Yes,it was a tragic family... This were James's children by Mary Beatrix:

1. Stillborn son 1674.
2. Katherine Laura 1675-1675.
3.Isabella 1676-1681.
4.Charles 1677-1677.
5. Elizabeth Laura 1678-1678.
6. Stillborn dughter 1681.
7. Charlotte Maria 1682-1682.
8. Stillborn son 1683.
9. Stillborn son 1684.
10. James Francis Edward 1688-1766.
12. Louise Marie Thérèse 1692-1712.
13. Stillborn daughter 1695.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2005, 09:31:40 AM
Anne was born on the 17th of March 1637 and died on 8th December 1640. I'm sure I read her cause of death somewhere . . . but I forget! She died in Richmond Palace . . . that's about all I know about her . . .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: RussMan on September 01, 2005, 04:33:45 PM
Too bad that Charles and Henrietta Maria got into so much trouble. They were a cute royla couple. But appreantly , Charles just lost his head. :P
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 04:35:14 PM
Both metaphorically and literally . . .   ::)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 11:27:27 AM


In the words of the day, Charles I's daughter Anne died of 'a suffocating catarrh with inflammatory disposition of the lungs.'
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 01:08:35 PM
Minette was apprently a beauty, and women certainly found Charles attractive (he had the dark, Latin looks of his Medici ancestors). There is a portrait of James in which he looks very handsome but I can't find it!!  >:(
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 01:10:50 PM
This isn't the one I meant, but it's a nice one . . .

(http://www.info-regenten.de/regent/regent-d/pictures/Uk-james2.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 02, 2005, 01:12:46 PM
Henry was also seen as a handsome man in his times!

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/b/1/b1ba35a2.jpg)

Yes, I suppose all of their children were beautiful!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 01:17:04 PM
Charles I as he wanted the world to see him - sternly but nobly presiding over his family:

(http://www.genealogycds.com/sales/KingCharlesI.jpeg)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 01:17:43 PM
Umigon, the Henry pic is beautiful - I have never seen it before. Thanks.  :D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 09:28:18 AM
If anyone is interested, here are all of Charles II's illegitimate children:

By Margaret de Carteret
-James de Carteret (1646-1667). Charles was 16 when he was born!  :oWe were talking about Mary II being sexually active at about 15, well her uncle certainly was!

By Lucy Walter
-James Scott, Duke of Monmouth (1649-1685). He always claimed that his parents were married, but never produced any evidence.Married Anne Scott, heiress of the dukes of Buccleuch and had issue, who I will list later.

-Mary Stuart (1658-1693). It is possible Charles was not her father.

By Elizabeth Killigrew, Viscountess Shannon
-Charlotte Jemima Henrietta Maria FitzRoy (1650-1684). She married William Paston, Earl of Yarmouth, and had isuue I will list later. I bet the pious Queen Henrietta Maria loved the fact that this bastard had her names!

By Catherine Pegge
-Charles FitzCharles, 1st Earl of Plymouth (1657-1680). He married Lady Briget Osborne.

-Catherine FitzCharles (1658-1759).She was a nun and lived to be 101!!!!

By  Barbara Villiers, Duchess of Cleveland
-Charles Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Southampton (1662-1730). He married Anne Poultney and had issue, to be listed later.

-Sir Henry Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Grafton (1663-1690). He married Lady Isabella Bennet, Countess of Arlington and has issue.

-Lady Charlotte Fitzroy (1664-1718). She married Edward Lee, Earl of Lichfield and had children.

-George Fitzroy, 1st Duke of Northumberland (1665-1716).  He married Mary Dutton.

By Eleanor ('Nell') Gywn
-Charles Beauclerk, 1st Duke of St. Albans (1760-1726). He married Lady Diana de Vere and had issue.

-James Beauclerk, Lord Beauclerk (1671-1680).

By Louise Renée de Penancoët de Kérouaille, Duchess of Portsmouth
-Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond (1672-1723). He married Anne Budenell and had issue.

By Moll Davies
-Mary Tudor (1673-1726). She married Edward Ratcliffe,  Earl of Derwentwater and had issue.  
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 10:57:13 AM
And now, Charles II's grandchildren!

-children of the Duke of Monmouth and Anne Buccleuch
1. Lady Isabella Scott. I can't find her birth date but she died in 1748.

2. Charles Scott, Earl of Doncaster (1672-1673)

3. James Scott, Earl of Dalkeith (1674-1704)

4. Lady Anne Scot (1675-1685)

5. Henry Scott, Earl of Deloraine (1676-1730).

6. Lord Francis Scott (1678-79)

7. Lady Charlotte Scott (1683)

-children of Lady Charlotte Fitzroy and William Paston, Earl of Yarmouth
1. Lady Charlotte Paston (I can't find any dates or further details)

2. Lady Rebecca Paston (again no dates but she married Sir John Holland)

3. Charles Paston (1673-1718)

4. William Paston (1682-1711)

-children of Charles Fitzroy, Duke of Southampton and Anne Poultney
1. Lady Grace Fitzroy (1697-1763). She married Henry Vane, Earl of Darlington.

2. William Fitzroy, Duke of Cleveland (1698-1774)

3. Lord Charles Fitzroy (1699-1723)

4. Lord Henry Fitzroy (1701-1708)

5. Lady Barbara Fitzroy (no dates but died unmarried)

6. Lady Anne Fitzroy (no dates)

-children of Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Grafton and Lady Isabella Bennet, Countess of Arlington.
1. Charles Fitzroy, Duke of Grafton (1683-1757)

-children of Lady Charlotte Fitzroy and Edward Lee, Earl of Lichfield
1. Lady Barbara Lee (no dates; married Sir George Browne)
2. Hon. Charles Lee (died 1708 unmarried)
3. Vice-Admiral Hon. Fitzroy Henry Lee   (d. 1720)
4. Lady Elizabeth Lee (no dates)
5. Lady Charlotte Lee (1678-1721). Married Benedict Calvert, Lord Baltimore.
6. Charles Lee, Viscount Quarendon (1680)
7. Edward Henry Lee, Viscount Quarendon (1681-1713)
8. George Henry Lee, 2nd Earl of Lichfield (1690-1742)
9. Captain Hon. James Lee   (1691-1711)
10. Robert Lee, 4th Earl of Lichfield  (1706-1766)
11. Anne Lee (1716)

-children of Charles Beauclerk, Duke of St Albans and Lady Diana de Vere
1.Charles Beauclerk, 2nd Duke of St. Albans (1696-1751)
2.Lady Diana Beauclerk (1697)
3.Lord William Beauclerk (1698-1732)
4.Admiral Vere Beauclerk, 1st Baron Vere of Hanworth (1699-1781)
5.Colonel Lord Henry Beauclerk (1701-1761)
6.Lord Sydney Beauclerk (1703-1744
7.Lord George Beauclerk (1704-1768
8.Lord Seymour Beauclerk (1708)
9.Rt. Rev. Lord James Beauclerk (1709-1787
10.Lord Aubrey Beauclerk (1711-1740)
11.Lady Mary Beauclerk (1713)
12.Lady Anne Beauclerk  (1716)

-children of Charles Lennox, Duke of Richmond and Anne Budenell
1. Lady Louisa Lennox (1694-1717). She married James Berkely, Earl of Berkely.

2. Charles Lennox, Duke of Richmond (1701-1750)

3. Lady Anne Lennox (1703-1789). She married William van Keppel, Earl of Albermarle. His grandfather was a favourite of William III, and Alice Keppel's husband George was descended from this marriage.

-children of Mary Tudor and the earl of Derwent-w-a-ter
1. Francis Ratcliffe (1693-1746)

2. Lady Mary Ratcliffe (dates unknown)

3. James, Earl of you-know-what (!) (1689-1716)

4. Charles Ratcliffe (dates unknown)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 03, 2005, 11:23:09 AM
I really enjoy lists like these!

The Earl of Derwent-water was executed for his part in the 1715 Jacobite rising. His brother Charles was executed for activities connected to the '45! (maybe that's why the name is censored!)

Have you got the illegitimate children of James?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 12:15:44 PM
Your wish is my command! The illegitimate children of James II!

-with Arabella Churchill
1. Lady Henrietta Fitzjames (1667-1730). She married Henry Waldergrave, Baron Waldergrave of Chewton.

2. James Fitzjames, Duke of Berwick (1670-1734). He married  firstly Lady Honora Burke and second Lady Anne Bulkeley.

3. Henry Fitzjames, Duke of Albermarle (1673-1702). He married Marie Gabrielle d'Audibert.

4. Lady Arabella Fitzjames (1674-1704). She was a nun with the name of Ignatia.

-with Katherine Sedley, Countess of Dorchester
1. Lady Catherine Darnley (1681-1743). She married firstly James Annelessy, Earl of Anglesea and secondly John Sheffield, Duke of Buckingham.

2. James Darnley (1684-85)

-unknown mother
1. Charles Darnley (died very young).
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 03, 2005, 12:20:19 PM
And this is how the Spanish Duchess of Alba (very famous here in Spain) is related to the Stuarts through James Fitzjames Stuart, son of James II:

1. James II Stuart (1633-1701). Had an adulterous affair with Arabella Churchill (1648-1730), sister to the Duke of Marlborough from which:

2. James Fitzjames Stuart (1670-1734), Duke of Berwick. Married firstly Honora de Burgh (1674-169 in 1695. His second wife was Anne Bulkeley (1681-1751), with whom he married in 1700. From his first wife he had:

3. James Francis Fitzjames Stuart (1696-1736), Duke of Berwick. Married Catalina Ventura Colón de Portugal y Ayala (1690-1739) in 1716. They had:

4. Jacobo Francisco Fitzjames Stuart y Colón de Portugal (1718-1785), Duke of Berwick. He married María Teresa de Silva y Álvarez de Toledo (1716-1790), sister of the XII Duke of Alba, in 1738. They had:

5. Carlos Fernando Pascual Januario Fitzjames Stuart y de Silva (1752-1787), Duke of Berwick. He married Caroline Augusta Maria of Stolberg-Gedern (1755-182 in 1771. Caroline was the younger sister of Louisa, wife of Bonnie Prince Charlie (Charles Edward Stuart). They had:

6. Jacobo Felipe Carlos Pascual Cayetano Fitzjames Stuart y de Stolberg-Gedern (1773-1794), Duke of Berwick. He married María Teresa Fernández de Silva y Palafox (1772-181 in 1790. They had:

7. Carlos Miguel Fitzjames Stuart y Fernández de Silva (1794-1835), Duke of Alba and 14th Duke of Alba since 1802. He married Maria Rosalia de Ventimiglia (1798-186 in 1817. They had:

8. Jacobo Luis Francisco Pablo Rafael Fitzjames Stuart y de Ventimiglia (1821-1881), 15th  Duke of Alba and  Duke of Berwick. He married María Francisca de Sales de Guzmán Palafox y Kirkpatrick of Closeburn (1825-1860), sister of Empress Eugenia of France, in 1844. They had:

9. Carlos María Isabel Fitzjames Stuart y de Guzmán Palafox (1849-1901), 16th Duke of Alba. He married María del Rosario Falcó y Osorio (1854-1904) in 1877. They had:

10. Jacobo María del Pilar Carlos Manuel Fitzjames Stuart y Falcó (1878-1953), 17th Duke of Alba. He married María del Rosario de Silva y Guturbay (1900-1934) in 1920. They had:

11. Cayetana (María del Rosario Cayetana) Fitzjames Stuart y de Silva (1926-), 18th and current Duchess of Alba. She married firstly Pedro Luis Martínez de Irujo y Artazcoz (1919-1972) in 1948. Her second husband was Jesús Aguirre y Ortiz de Zárate (1934-2001), with whom she married in 1978 and with whom she had no children. With her first husband she had:

12. Carlos Fitzjames Stuart y Martínez de Irujo (1949-), who married Matilde de Solís y Martínez-Campos (1963-) in 1988. They are divorced, although they have two sons: Fernando (1990-) and Carlos (1991-).  

Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 03, 2005, 01:25:56 PM
I knew Umigon would like this connection!

Lady Catharine's waxwork death effigy is on show at Westminster Abbey.

Is number 6 the woman who famously posed for Goya?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 01:30:55 PM
Thanks for that umigon! And who says the Stuarts weren't prolific? They were - but not with their wives!  ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 03, 2005, 01:33:08 PM
And with their wives also! Sadly, most of their legitimate children didn't survive!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 03, 2005, 01:34:25 PM
Catharine Sedley was no oil painting. Charles used to say that his brother had her "by way of penance".
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 02:53:56 PM
 ;D ;D ;D Charles was easily the wittiest of all English monarchs. Also, William III's mistress Elizabeth Villiers was no beauty - she was called 'Squinting Betty'.

Catherine Sedley certainly had a way with words. During the reign of (I think) George I, she was surprised to meet both Elizabeth Villiers and Louis de Keroualle at a party, and exclaimed 'Who would have thought we three royal whores would meet here!' A woman of class. ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Kimberly on September 03, 2005, 04:37:14 PM
there is a famous saying attributed to the late lamented Dorothy Parker ( I think) re Horticulture... " you can lead a whore to culture... but you cannot make her read" love it. back to topic.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 04:42:51 PM
Quote
there is a famous saying attributed to the late lamented Dorothy Parker ( I think) re Horticulture... " you can lead a whore to culture... but you cannot make her read" love it. back to topic.


;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 05, 2005, 10:11:24 AM
um,wasnt the queen mother a descendant of the liaison of charles 2nd with barbara villiers?


also i heard that once there was the royal carriage on the streets of london and people thought it was louise of kerroualle and booed. but the door opened and it was nell gwyn who shouted 'hush you! it's not the french whore, it's the english one!'
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 05, 2005, 10:29:10 AM
 ;D ;D Well, ilyala, plenty of English nobles are descended from Charles through his bastards. I beleive the late Diana, POW was too.

I've heard differnt accounts of the Nell Gwyn story - others say she said 'Good people, let me be! I am the Protestant whore!'  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 05, 2005, 12:40:08 PM


Hey! I love those stories! I didn't know English Royal mistresses had such a sense of humour!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 05, 2005, 01:52:06 PM
Nell also once encountered two men fighting, because one had called her a whore and the other was defending her honour.

'I am a whore!' Nell said, 'Find something else to fight about!'

;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 05, 2005, 01:55:51 PM


I just love them! Thanks prince!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 06, 2005, 07:32:01 AM
Quote
Nell also once encountered two men fighting, because one had called her a whore and the other was defending her honour.

'I am a whore!' Nell said, 'Find something else to fight about!'

 ;D ;D ;D



:D :D :D
i didn't know this one, too funny  :D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 06, 2005, 11:08:04 AM
I just heard another anecdote/rumour from my book - apparently, after Charles I was killed, there were rumours that Elizabeth would be married to one of Cromwell's sons, and young Harry would be made a cobbler or something of the kind. Also, around this time, Cromwell commanded that the children were to lose their royal styles and be addressed just like any other children - in fact, though Henry came to be known as 'Mr Harry' Elizabeth was still addressed as 'Highness'.

Before Charles's execution, Elizabeth had requested permission for she and Henry to be allowed to go and live with their sister the Princess of Orange. Cromwell refused. Ironically, just before Elizabeth died Cromwell made the decision to allow her and Henry to leave provided they continued to 'act inoffensively' towards the Commonwealth. Of course, this came too late for Elizabeth . . .

Regarding Minette, one of the reasons she escaped England so easily (with the cleverness of her governess) was that Cromwell was glad to be releived of the burden of supporting another royal child, and made no real pursuit.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 06, 2005, 02:19:08 PM
I thought I'd add a little bit about Mary, the Princess Royal, since she has not been mentioned much yet:

She was very close to her aunt, the Winter Queen, who was of course living in the Hague and was close by. Sadly, she was never popular in Holland and made no secret of her dislike of the Dutch. Charles II was her favourite brother, and they were close. She gave him as much help as she could during his exile, but when the Dutch signed a treaty with Cromwell she was told she could no longer invite him to Holland.

When a Commonwelth deputation was respectfully received in the Hague, Mary and her aunt pointedly boycotted the event.

She visited France in the 1650s, to see her mother (whom she had seen for about 10 years) and to meet her sister Minette for the first time. She was a hit at the French court, and since she was only 24 there was talk of remarriage, possibly even with Louis XIV himself!

This is how Henrietta Maria's niece, Anne-Marie, Le Grande Mademoiselle described her cousin: The Princess of Orange wore the most beautiful diamond earrings I ever beheld: very fine with pearl clasps and a large diamond bracelet with rings of the same kind .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 07, 2005, 07:18:10 AM
something not particularly related to charles or his family: it was shown how high cromwell had reached by the way his daughter were evaluated on the marriage market. at first they were rumoured to marry dukes, then at some point they elizabeth was rumoured to marry a french royal!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 10:08:06 AM
Yes, and her wore an ermine cloak, lived at Hampton Court and was addressed as 'Highness'!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 10:25:52 AM
I've been reading up on Minette. Regarding her relationship with the Comte de la Guiche, Alison Plowden says:

It had the air more of youthful bravado than a serious affair and it seems most unlikely that Minette was ever actually unfaithful to her husband.

The difficulties were practical - Minette was surrounded by people almost all the time, and any affair would not have stayed secret for long.

It was mostly just trouble being stirred by Anne de Montalais, Minette's lady-in-waiting. She arranged a meeting with the Comte, but Monisieur (Minette's husband) returned unexpectedly and the Comte had to hide in the chimney! Monsieur was eating an orange and was about to throw the peel in the grate when Montalais, ever resourceful, sprung forward and begged him to give her the peel, since it was her favourite part of an orange.

Eventually, Louis XIV, not unjustly feeling that more important matters merited his attention, sacked Montalais and the whole thing blew over eventually.

De Guiche was desolate, and went to Poland to fight the Russians. He had hoped to be killed, but he in fact distinguished himself with bravery and his life was saved when a picture of Minette in his breat-pocket deflected a bullet! You couldn't make it up!  ;D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 10:46:23 AM


Minette was ver possibly unfaithful to Monsieur. Her first lover probably was Louis XIV, followed by the aforementioned Comte de Guiche, who had already been her husband's lover!


I think Minette was an intelligent person and could scape all those people surrounding her. Most of those people were women and the Court of Louis XIV didn't distinguish herself for being very moral, her ladies-in-waiting must have felt sorry for Minette. I don't think she was a faithful wife. On the other hand, I think she did right in having her affairs... hadn't she got a right!?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 10:51:01 AM
Plowden sees no evidence that Minette was Louis's lover, but I guess there is no evidence either way . . . I think Louis was charmed by Minette, as everyone was, but I don't think there was an affair . . . Minette, remember, was very Catholic, like her mother . . . In fact, when Henrietta Maria suspected she was having an affair with de Guiche, she read her daughter the riot act, and Minette apologised profusely for her indiscreet behaviour, but never admitted to an affair.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 11:04:13 AM


We must agree to disagree...


Minette was very very high-spirited and she certainly was Catholic, but not in the way her mother was. I can't imagine her, having such an intelligent and free spirit, denying herself having attractive and heterosexual men by her side  if she was able to have them!! And she was! I mean, her character was that of a fighter, and she was disappointed with her husband, so...

Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 11:13:14 AM
We will agree to diasgree!

I've never heard much about Minette's relations with her daughters? I know Anne-Marie was only about 1 when Minette died but Marie Louise was 8 or 9 . . . was Minette an affectionate mother? Anyone know?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 11:23:14 AM


She seems to have been an affectionate mother, although Monsieur was probably closer to both Marie Louise and Anne Marie. But with Minette dying so young it isn't surprising!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 11:53:59 AM
A little off topic, but was Liselotte a kind stepmother to Marie Louise and Anne Marie?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 12:12:57 PM


She was like their mother, in fact, Anne Marie called her mother.

This is what Liselotte wrote in about 1720 about her first years in France:

The best of them all was my stepdaughter, whom I loved with all my heart like a sister, for she could not be my daughter since I was only nine years older. I was still quite childish when I came here, and we played and carried on together...; we often made so much noise that people could not stand to be with us. There was an old lady here by the name of Madame de Fiennes, whom we used to pester mercilessly. She disliked the sound of shooting, and we always tossed firecrackers into her skirts; this drove her wild, and she would run after us trying to hit us, that was great fun for us.  
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 12:20:08 PM
Thanks umigon. Liselotte was another wonderful woman, but I think she, Minette and 'Monsieur' have their own thread on the French board . . .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 12:29:16 PM
Yes, they have! Lets return to our original topic!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 12:37:55 PM
Mary, Princess Royal and Princess of Orange, died in London, for anyone who didn't know. She had contracted smallpox, and her brother Charles braved infection by never leaving her side. Henry, Duke of Gloucester, had died of smallpox some time earlier and his doctors had been accused of not bleeding him enough. Mary's doctors, determined not to make the same mistake, blead her so much she had no strength to fight the infection.

Just before her death she signed a will, entrusting care of her son William to her brother Charles and mother, Henrietta Maria. She died, aged just 29.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 12:40:56 PM


But William wasn't brought up neither by Charles or Henrietta, was him? He would have probably become a Catholic, had he lived with Henrietta!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 12:44:00 PM
Actually, Henrietta Maria never met him . . . and Charles was very willing to delegate his duties with regards to William's upbringing . . .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 12:52:12 PM
Was Henrietta close to her daughter Mary?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 07, 2005, 01:59:14 PM
William was brought up mostly by granny Amalia, I believe. I don't know if Henrietta was close to her daughter Mary - Prince Lieven, what does Alison Plowden have to say?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 02:04:18 PM
As I said before, Henrietta, Charles and their children were considered unusually close. Henrietta accompanied Mary to Holland and spent sometime with her in the early days of her marriage . . .  When Mary visited France in the 1650s, she had not see Henrietta for about 10 years, but apprently they greeted each other very happily, and spent some time together. I think Henrietta was closest to Charles and Minette of all her children.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 17, 2005, 12:13:18 AM
Well, I think Henry was far more handsome than William... at leats if I compare this portrait with those og William that have survived.


But still, that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 05:34:16 AM
Have we got any portrait of teenager Louise Marie Stuart?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 07:15:56 AM
The only pic I've ever seen of Louise Marie is the one I posted of her and her brother on the (I think) Queen consorts thread.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 07:27:51 AM
I've seen one of her aged about 18. I think it was in a Mary Beatrice bio.
This isn't the one I'm thinking of but:
http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs/louisastuart1692.jpg
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 07:35:15 AM
Oooh, I'd love if someone could find it!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 07:40:57 AM
Yes, I found that one too Bell. She was a pretty girl.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 08:58:38 AM
Oh thanks! She was very pretty, much more Este than Stuart!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 09:08:38 AM
Yes, she greatly resembles Mary Beatrice, but I think she has something of the Stuarts in her rosey cheeks . . . If she had survived . . . perhaps she would have  married a French prince?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 09:20:49 AM
I don't think her marriage prospects were very good. She was 20 when she died - she may have already missed the boat. She was as they say in France "sans dot" i.e. she had no dowry!

Mary Beatrice may have been calculating that her son would soon become King of Great Britain, and that it would be better to wait a couple of years and then find a good husband for her daughter after the Restoration. Between 1710 and 1714, everyone in Versailles expected Anne to nominate her brother as her successor. Alas it was not to be!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 09:23:55 AM
Well, Louis XIV did declare the Old Pretender James III of England and VIII of Scotland . . . perhaps he would have married Louise Marie off to a minor French prince or something. Perhaps he even would have provided a dowry?

Either way, it's equally likely that Louise Marie would have entered a convent if she had survived.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 09:36:56 AM
Didn't Anne tried to wipe off the story of the warming pan and name James Edward as her heir in her last days because she disliked her Hanover cousins? I think I read that somewhere!


About Louise, she would have probably married a French noble, from the Houses of Conti or Condé, very possibly...
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 09:48:45 AM
Anne was more and more determined that her brother should succeed. She had always felt guilty about her role in deserting her father. She was supported in this by Lady Masham and Viscount Bolingbroke who was involved in secret negociations at the Court of St Germain (of Catherine de' Medici  fame!).

Unfortunately her ministers were aware that the country would not accept a creature of Louis XIV on the throne so soon after the war had ended. It would also entail changing the Act of Succession.

Anne had an emergency council meeting to debate this matter on July 31 1714. The exchange was so heated, that Anne had a seizure and expired the following day!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 09:51:47 AM
Gosh! A little post-death revenge for the Electress Sophia, who was said to be so upset by a peremptory letter from Anne that she died!

IMO, the Old Pretender wouldn't have made a good king - he was a dour, uninspiring figure. And if he had listened to James II, then he would have beleived in the Divine Right of Kings . . .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 09:53:04 AM
Quote
Didn't Anne tried to wipe off the story of the warming pan and name James Edward as her heir in her last days because she disliked her Hanover cousins? I think I read that somewhere!


About Louise, she would have probably married a French noble, from the Houses of Conti or Condé, very possibly...


It is generally believed that Anne disliked George of Hanover because he had rejected an offer to marry her in the 1680s. This seems unlikey though, since though Anne never forgot a slight, it seems unlikely she felt slighted here, especially given how happy her subsequent marriage became.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 09:53:17 AM
Quote
Well, Louis XIV did declare the Old Pretender James III of England and VIII of Scotland . . . perhaps he would have married Louise Marie off to a minor French prince or something. Perhaps he even would have provided a dowry?

Either way, it's equally likely that Louise Marie would have entered a convent if she had survived.


Louis might have provided a small dowry out of personal regard for James and Mary Beatrice, but by the end of the War he was pretty broke. After the death of Louis the chance of getting money from the regent was zero. the Young Pretender had to search around in the bargain basement before he found Clementina Sobieski.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 09:55:44 AM
Apparently Louis had a great regard for Mary Beatrice . . . anyone know any more about this?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 10:00:09 AM
I know they played cards together and one day Mary Beatrice and Madame de Maintenon had an argument about Louise Marie (can't remember what was the matter of the dispute, though) and Louis, who was very influenced by Maintenon and never permitted a bad answer to her, said:

" Marie is right, Madame, she is the child's mother"


Maintenon shut up - HE was the King - but was recorded to be infuriated because someone had won her in a dispute!!


This also prooves the respect and affection that James and Mary Beatrice inspired to Louis!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:03:18 AM
I can well imagine that Mary Beatrice was the kind of woman Louis liked . . . he liked Minette too, and she shared some characteristics with Mary Beatrice.

Apparently, James turned over a new leaf in exile and changed his lecherous ways . . . Where did they live in France? Did Louis give them an allowance?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 10:05:58 AM
I'll bet that was a Liselotte story. She loved anything that showed the Maintenon in a bad light.

They lived at St Germain en Laye near Paris.

James became very boring in exile. It was said he only had to open his mouth for everyone to know the reason why he was there (i.e. not in England).
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:08:34 AM
She loved anything that was in any way dramatic.  ;D ;D

Did Liselotte meet James and Mary Beatrice in their exile at all?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 10:10:56 AM
Yes, she was good friends with Mary Beatrice - lot of Liselotte's letters are addressed to her. She was very sad when Mary Beatrice died (contrast to whooping with joy when Mme de Maintenon died!).
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 10:13:53 AM

Of course she met them, they all lived quite near ones from the others and Liselotte lived in Versailles, where James and Mary Beatrice spent much time and even had their own chambers there. Liselotte liked Mary Beatrice (they belonged to the same generation) and they were friends.

The story, well I can't remember where I read it, but I am sure it was not Liselotte's work, although it is very similar to the typical comments she made about Maintenon. And well, Liselotte had her reasons to dislike Maintenon, she was not a good woman... at least not for Louis's family...
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:16:39 AM
It was Mary Beatrice who wrote to Anne to tell her of James' death - doesn anyone know if Anne replied? Was there court mourning in England? BTW, presumably Louis continued to look after Mary Beatrice after James' death?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 10:21:22 AM


Yes, he passed her a pension. Things turned a bit cooler between Louis and his Stuart relatives in 1714, when the Treaty of Utrecht was signed, because one of the conditions was that the Stuart pretender should be exiled from France. Although I can't remember very weell, what happened next, James went out of France and Louis and Mary Beatrice separated a bit. Mary Beatrice, however, was very sad when Louis died in 1715.


About Anne, I don't know if there was mourning when James II died. But James forbid mourning in his Saint Germain Court when Mary II died in 1694!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:26:53 AM
He FORBID mourning! I had no idea!!

Gosh . . . When James was dying, he told the weeping Mary Beatrice 'Think of it Madam, I am going to be happy.' He also urged his son to be tolerant to other religions. He ruged Louise Marie to follow her mother's noble example.

He then told God he forgave his three great enemies - the Holy Roman Emperor, the Prince of Orange (William III) and Princess Anne of Denmark - his own daughter!

Louis was greatly moved by Mary Beatrice's tears, and Madam de Maintenon urged him to pity her. He did so, and when James died he declared his son King.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: trentk80 on September 18, 2005, 10:28:28 AM
Does anyone have pictures and information on Clementina Sobieska, the Old Pretender's wife?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on September 18, 2005, 10:30:01 AM
Louis wished to control England and Scotland. He wanted to have a satelite monarch in the person of James III who, in case of becoming King of England, would owe to Louis his achievement. Louis also tried to do the same thing with his grandson Felipe when he became King of Spain in 1700. Both wishes were never satisfied!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:32:32 AM
Yes, very true.

I just checked it out - William III was furious with Louis declaring the Old Pretender King, but he was not petty enough to deny mourning. He wore violet, but stipulated that mourning would not be for long. This annoyed Princess Anne of Denmark, since she had already assumed full mourning for her father and covered St James' palace in black . . .  guilt makes people do amazing things.  ::)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 18, 2005, 10:37:00 AM
 Maria Clementina Sobieska (1702-1735), granddaughter of the Polish king, John III Sobieski. They had two sons:

Charles Edward Louis Philip Casimir Stuart, (December 31, 1720- January 31, 1788), aka "Bonnie Prince Charlie"
Henry Benedict Stuart, (March 11, 1725-July 13, 1807)

The events surrounding her marriage were quite dramatic. the Emperor wouldn't allow her to travel through his territories so she had to be smuggled into Italy disguised as a servant.

Her marriage with the Pretender was not a happy one , and they separated after the birth of Henry Benedict, her second son.

She may have suffered from an eating disorder (anorexia).

She lived her final years in Rome. She died in 1735 aged 32/3 and is buried in St Peters. She was good friends with the Pope (I think Benedict XV). They went out driving together. Scandalmongers said they were having an affair!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 10:50:59 AM
Here is the letter that Mary Beatrice wrote to her stepdaughter Princess Anne of Denmark after James II's death:

I think myself indispensably obliged to defer no longer to acquainting you with a message which the best of men, as well as the best of fathers, has left with me for you. Some few days before his death, he bid me find means to let you know that he forgave you from the bottom of his heart, and prayed God to do so too, so that he gave you his last blessing, and prayed God to convert your heart, and confirm you in the resolution of repairing to his son the wrongs done to himself; to which I shall only add, that I join my prayers to his herein with all my heart, and that I shall make it my business to inspire to the young man who is left to my care, the sentiments of his father, for better no man can have.

After his death, James II remained unburied. His coffin lay in the grounds of the Church of English Benedictines in rue St Jacques, Paris. During the French Revoltution, a group of solderis opened the coffin to find James' body perfectly preserved. James' corpse was on display until 1813, when the Prince Regent heard of it and had it buried in St Germain en Laye.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 11:04:40 AM
Here's a painting that shows that the Old Pretender was a not unnattractive young man:

(http://www.scotsindependent.org/2003/030328/stewartdetroy.jpg)
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 02:19:58 PM
Well, pics are hard to come by, but regarding Elizabeth's personality - we know she was a solemn, studious girl, very devoted to the Anglican religion, and devoted to her brother Henry, who adored her. She was very much in awe of her father . . .  I don't know what her relations with her mother were like. I think she was a clever, sweet girl who might have grown up to be a very useful member of the Stuart Royal Family.

She showed great bravery, especially when she and Henry were marooned in England after Charles I's execution . . . she wrote repeatedly to Cromwell and his friends, begging for more money, clothes, and above all to allowed to go to Holland to live with their sister Mary.

Very sadly, Cromwell had finally decided to allow Elizabeth to go to the Hague when she died.   :-/
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 18, 2005, 04:11:16 PM
Yes, sad, but appropriate given how religious she was. Henry was re-united with his family, but not for another few more lonely years.

Thanksfully, Elizabeth was always treated respectfullt by her keepers - even after Cromwell ordered that they be treated like ordinary children, Elizabeth was still addressed as 'Princess' or 'My Lady' whereas Henry was known as 'Mr Harry'.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: palatine on September 24, 2005, 05:39:13 PM
An excellent source of information about the Stuarts is the "Queens of England" series by Agnes Strickland.  These are old books, but affordable reading copies are available around the internet.   I am uncertain which volumes in the series deal with the Stuarts.  Strickland included biographies of Henrietta Maria, Catherine of Braganza, Mary of Modena, Queen Mary, and Queen Anne in the series.

A great site about the Jacobite claimants to the English and Scottish thrones that includes a lot of documents, including some of James II's Declarations:

http://www.jacobite.ca/

Hope this helps....
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 24, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
Thanks palatine.  :) BTW - some trivia. The current Jacobite claimant to the throne of Great Britain is Duke Franz of Bavaria, styled by adherents to the Jacobite cause as 'Fracis II, King of Great Britain, Ireland and France'. His niece and heiress, who will inherit the claim upon his death, is Duchess Sophie in Bavaria, married to Hereditary Prince Alois of Liechstenstein.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 24, 2005, 05:56:43 PM
I only just found out another tidbit of info - all of Charles I's children could count Ferdinand and Isabella, the Catholic Kings, among their ancestors through Henrietta Maria's mother Marie de Medici. The more you know . . .
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 25, 2005, 07:41:15 AM
i am also doing a project right now on royal genealogy. and i was quite amazed to find how many people were actually related to the royal family, either through ancestors or descendants...

for example, we talked in the tudor section about edward 2nd of england. his wife's lover, roger mortimer, is an ancestor of the royal family through his descendant anne mortimer who was the mother of richard, duke of york (father of edward 4th).  i find that very fascinating.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 25, 2005, 07:43:25 AM
Yes, it is, Ilyala! Feel free to start a thread here, or check 'Tracing the Plantagenets' on the Tudor board!  :D
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 25, 2005, 07:48:11 AM
Quote
for example, we talked in the tudor section about edward 2nd of england. his wife's lover, roger mortimer, is an ancestor of the royal family through his descendant anne mortimer who was the mother of richard, duke of york (father of edward 4th).  i find that very fascinating.


And wasn't Edward's favourite and supposed lover, Hugh le Despencer, the ancestor of Diana, Princess of Wales?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 25, 2005, 07:50:00 AM
i have starting using Family Tree Maker, initially to make a genealogy of the english royal family but soon discovered that that included just about every royal family in europe. which means i am now building the genealogy of european royalty :)

i have discovered a few interesting things (like this one...)...  like for example, not all henry 7th's claim was illegitimate. his grandmother was margaret holland who was, through her great grandfather, edmund of kent, a descendant of king edward 1st. a shaky claim, but legiitmate nevertheless :).

also, owen tudor is supposedly a descendant of edward 1st's oldest daughter, whose daughter married a welsh prince...

so many relations... very hard to figure them all out
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 25, 2005, 07:55:07 AM
I don't know about that, but I can tell you that le Despenser was married to Eleanor, daughter of the Earl of Gloucester and Joan Plantagenet, daughter of Edward I. Also, Edward II's other lover, Piers Gaveston, was married to Eleanor's sister Margaret!   :o We really should take this to Tracing the Plantagenets!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: ilyala on September 25, 2005, 07:56:18 AM
*goes to the tudor section*
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on October 25, 2005, 01:00:08 AM
Could anyone post a picture of Henriette Anne, Minette, Madame?   I know there's a painting of her SOMEWHERE but my searchings prove fruitless.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 25, 2005, 01:13:01 AM
Hi LenelorMiksi!

there's a thread about Philippe of Orléans and his wives on the French forum - with a few pictures of Minette!
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Modena on November 06, 2005, 09:27:31 AM
Quote

Yes,it was a tragic family... This were James's children by Mary Beatrix:

1. Stillborn son 1674.
2. Katherine Laura 1675-1675.
3.Isabella 1676-1681.
4.Charles 1677-1677.
5. Elizabeth Laura 1678-1678.
6. Stillborn dughter 1681.
7. Charlotte Maria 1682-1682.
8. Stillborn son 1683.
9. Stillborn son 1684.
10. James Francis Edward 1688-1766.
12. Louise Marie Thérèse 1692-1712.
13. Stillborn daughter 1695.


There was a 13th pregnancy?  :o
I thought little Louisa was the last baby.  :)

Where did you get this information? I knew about the first 12, but never heard of the 13th. Very interesting!

Also, I heard about another pregnancy that ended in miscarriage in 1686, but only from one source.  :'(
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: umigon on November 06, 2005, 12:33:32 PM
Quote

There was a 13th pregnancy?  :o
I thought little Louisa was the last baby.  :)

Where did you get this information? I knew about the first 12, but never heard of the 13th. Very interesting!

Also, I heard about another pregnancy that ended in miscarriage in 1686, but only from one source.  :'(




I don't know in what exact book I read it, but it was about French queens. It said that Liselotte had gone with some other women of the French Court to see the Queen of England, who had just lost a baby girl at birth (first days of January 1695).

About the 1686 miscarriage, I already heard about it. A son, wasn't it?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Modena on November 06, 2005, 01:33:55 PM
Quote



I don't know in what exact book I read it, but it was about French queens. It said that Liselotte had gone with some other women of the French Court to see the Queen of England, who had just lost a baby girl at birth (first days of January 1695).

About the 1686 miscarriage, I already heard about it. A son, wasn't it?


I don't know about the 1686 miscarriage, I just read a mention of it somewhere, so don't know what sex the child was.  :-[  Her very first pregnancy ended in miscarriage very soon after her marriage, so I'm surprised the sex of that child was determined.  

I never really saw mention of the sex of the children lost by miscarriage but somehow I got the impression the ones in 1683 and 1684 were sons. Not that sex matters, it's just so sad the loss of so many children.  :'(
That would make the total 14 pregnancies if all sources are correct.  :-/

Poor dear.  :'(


Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: palatine on December 23, 2005, 02:02:23 PM
Henrietta Maria’s funeral oration by Bossuet (in French):

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Gallica&O=NUMM-87673

Minette’s funeral oration by Bossuet (in French):

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Gallica&O=NUMM-87672
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: palatine on February 02, 2006, 12:45:57 PM
(edited by author due to concerns about copyright)

Henry and Elizabeth met with Charles on the day before his execution.  Charles urged Elizabeth to remain true to the Anglican church, recommended books to read that would arm her against Catholicism, and gave her his last wishes and instructions for the rest of the family.  Elizabeth later compiled a narrative of their meeting.  Charles made Henry promise not to let Parliament make a king of him so long as his elder brothers were alive.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on January 01, 2008, 01:13:23 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/ElizYorkHenry.jpg)

These are the younger surviving children of Charles I (excepting Minette): Elizabeth, James of York, and Henry.  This is the oldest portrait I can find of Elizabeth; she died at fourteen, but her character still fascinates me.  From this picture she was no beauty, but I feel so sorry for her, as she had to live out her life away from her older siblings and parents.  At least she got to know her father before he died, but really I think she suffered the most from Charles' death since her mother got to live in freedom in France, and Henry got out of England to enjoy an admittedly short life on the continent.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on January 01, 2008, 02:58:05 PM
She seemed like a very brave girl - the burden of 'looking after' Henry must have been felt very keenly by her after Charles's execution, or even before. I imagine religion was a great comfort to her.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on January 01, 2008, 06:44:09 PM
I don't know if Henry was a burden- I thought he was probably a comfort.  Elizabeth was six years old when her parents fled and her little brother was a year and a half. 

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/DickseeChildren.jpg)

Margaret Dicksee painted this picture entitled "The Children of Charles I" in the 19th century, probably after Queen Victoria reinterred her remains and erected a monument in Elizabeth's honor.  I'm assuming it's Elizabeth sitting with Henry.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: palatine on January 04, 2008, 10:10:34 PM
The church where Elizabeth was buried is in the process of being restored:

http://www.iwbeacon.org.uk/services_view.php?srid=45

You can find a good picture of Elizabeth’s tomb here:

http://newportparish.org.uk/renewalblog/?page_id=3

Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: Mari on January 05, 2008, 04:10:32 AM
Very interesting article on Princess Elizabeth relating to the restoration of the Church. How sad that she and her Brother were separated from their Mother and siblings. The ill treatment that is mentioned...are there any specific examples?
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on January 05, 2008, 10:33:43 AM
What a beautiful tomb.  Thank you palatine, I had been searching for pictures of it!

  As for the ill treatment, Alison Plowden states in The Stuart Princesses that Elizabeth's and Henry's various wardens actually treated them well, but the main tragedy was in them being kept away from their real family for so long.  I imagine they would have been much happier if they were allowed to join their sister Mary and aunt Elizabeth in the Netherlands. 
  However, when St. Thomas's church was rebuilt in the 1850's a Dr. Ernest Wilkins examined the remains and declared that Elizabeth suffered from a softening of the bones called rickets, and that their appearance indicated some deformity.  To my knowledge, rickets is caused by malnutrition.  It seems incongruous to state that she was not ill treated if she was not fed well enough to prevent malnutrition. 
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: palatine on January 05, 2008, 12:25:11 PM
To my knowledge, rickets is caused by malnutrition.  It seems incongruous to state that she was not ill treated if she was not fed well enough to prevent malnutrition. 

Elizabeth suffered from mobility problems and was a semi-invalid long before the civil war broke out.  Her freedom of movement was restricted after her brother James escaped during a game of hide-and-seek they were playing in the garden.  Lack of sunlight is a major cause of rickets.  It’s likely that the rickets made her mobility problems worse, which kept her out of the sun, which made the rickets worse.  Her gaolers’ decision to keep her inside as much as possible would also have made her rickets worse. 

Elizabeth wasn’t in a Louis XVII situation.  Her captors had good reason to keep her healthy, as happy as possible, and alive: her first cousin was Louis XIV; her brother-in-law was the Stadholder of Holland; and she was a cousin of sorts to the Danish royal family.  Throughout her imprisonment, there was a chance that her father or brother would regain the throne, which would put her in a position to reward or punish her captors.  She wasn’t starved or abused but I think it’s fair to say that she suffered as a result of the psychological blows she endured and because of the poor medical care in that era.  Even if she’d joined Mary in Holland, I don’t think she would have survived; I think that she'd been too sick for too long.  If Elizabeth had showed up in Holland, Mary's doctor probably would have killed a pigeon and put it on her head in an attempt to cure her, that's how bad doctors were back then.   As I recall, Alison Plowden said that Elizabeth contracted tuberculosis in the home of one of her captors.  I think Elizabeth was tubercular a lot earlier than that.  Her sister Anne died of tuberculosis as a toddler.  During his autopsy, Charles II’s lungs showed signs that he’d suffered from tuberculosis and had recovered; unlike Elizabeth, Charles had an iron constitution.  As the deaths (from smallpox) of Mary, Henry, and Mary II proved, the royal palaces were germ factories.  It's amazing that any of the Stuarts came out of Whitehall alive. 

It is a pity that most of what we know about Elizabeth was written by various and sundry misty-eyed people after the Restoration.  A lot of her history is a blank.  She seems to have been highly intelligent as well as capable of political manipulation and strategic planning.  She would have been a major asset to Charles II.
Title: Re: Charles I and family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on January 05, 2008, 05:34:03 PM
I didn't mean that Elizabeth would have survived longer if she'd gone to Holland- I just think she and Henry would have been happier there with family.  I'm sure the medical care there was centered on bleeding like everywhere else in Europe at the time, which we know just weakens resistance to disease.  Probably having a dead pigeon put on one's head would be more beneficial than bleeding- at least then maybe the placebo effect could kick in. I didn't realize that rickets could be caused by lack of sunlight.  That makes a lot of sense, and tuberculosis was so prevalent a person weakened by rickets would be especially prone to die of it.