Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:33:11 PM

Title: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:33:11 PM

Well, the thread about them is started, ilyala.

For those who don't know them, Philippe was born in 1640 to Louis XIII of France and Anne of Austria, thus being Louis XIV younger brother. Spoiled by his mother, he ended being a frivolous (at times) and witty young and attractive homosexual. Married because of political reasons in 1661 to his cousin Henrietta Anne Stuart (1644-1670), daughter of the ill-fated King Charles I, their marriage was a personal failure, and although they managed to conceive 8 children, only two daughters survived: Marie Louise, future Queen of Spain; and Anne Marie, future Queen of Sardinia.

Married then in 1671 to Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate (1652-1722), a woman who was much more tolerant and personally stable than Minette (Henrietta), after having three children, Monsieur and Liselotte decided to sleep separately for the rest of their lives. Their two surviving children were: future Duke Philippe II of Orleans and Elizabeth Charlotte, future Duchess of Lorraine.

Philippe was a talented warrior, and he gained some respect in battles during the first half of the 1660's. Louis, jealous of his brother's fame, forbid him to take part in any thing which had to do with war under the excuse that he was his only brother. Philippe was also a loving and doting father, but a horrible husband and an extremely jealous lover. He also engaged in many debts that made Liselotte fear for her children's future...


Philippe would die in 1701, after a strong argument he had with his brother. Louis cried for days, but forced the Court to do normal life.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:45:13 PM
PHILIPPE D'ORLÉANS (1640-1701):

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/7/4/74d90cf6.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:46:50 PM
HENRIETTA ANNE STUART (1644-1670):

(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/6/4/645d1bd0.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 10, 2005, 06:47:48 PM
ELIZABETH CHARLOTTE VON DER PFALZ (1652-1722):


(http://fotos.miarroba.com/fotos/3/9/3988afba.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 05:51:04 AM
I feel awfully sorry for Minette, I always have. Liselotte was her cousin, I beleive. Liselotte's aunt was Sophie of the Palatinate, Electress of Hanover on whom the English succession was settled. Liselotte was very close to her and wrote her many letters. she was a tremenduous gossip and a very fun loving woman.

On a side note, the Jacobite claimant to the throne of Britain is descended from Minette and Philippe's second daughter Anne-Marie, since Marie-Louise died childless.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 05:55:39 AM


Well, Minette was no saint, she first engaged in  an affair with King Louis and after that, she became Armand de Gramont's lover, and Armand had been Philippe's lover until that point!!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 06:31:06 AM
<grumbling>. I never said she was a saint. Besides, where did you hear that she was Louis' lover? Has this been confirmed beyond all reasonable doubt? I know that Henrietta Maria wanted Minette to marry Louis but he dismisse her as a silly child.

Anyway, why should Philippe be allowed have affairs, but Minette not?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 06:44:11 AM



Well, in those times men could have affairs, but women were supposed to be faithful all their lives, even after their husband's death, unless they were still young and they were married off to someone else!

Well, Louis courted her openly and although it has never been officially confirmed, he used to spend many nights in her company, supposedly accompanied by her maids, but who knows... he was the King, and he thought that she was a charming woman.

Minette was very thin when she married Philippe, and being thin in those times was not something that resulted attractive (unlike nowadays). But it really was good fun to be with her and she stood out in every party. Her face was pretty and her marriage a failure... she had everything to be one of Louis's "victims", and she even intrigued against Louise de la Vallière. During the first months of Monsieur and Minette's marriage, everybody in the Court talked about the famous "affair".

Some authors have even suggested that Louis slept with Minette in order to provide legitimate heirs to his gay brother (although the babies would really be illegitimate). I think this theory is nonsense, as Liselotte will write years later the effort Philippe made with her in order to have children.


(about Minette's sainthood, I wasn't meaning to be rude! And then, who was a saint in that Court?  ;))
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on August 11, 2005, 11:11:13 AM
all that's interesting and all but my real point of interest is...

*drumroll*

louis was born after 20 years of barren marriage. that in itself was a miracle but to have a brother coming after him...! anyone else find that strange?  ::)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 11:15:04 AM
Unusual but certainly not unprecedented . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on August 11, 2005, 11:16:25 AM
i read rumours that the fact that the whole thing happened just after mazarin came into the scene is not a coincidence...  ;D (just trying to get things interesting)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 11:20:04 AM
Well, let's be fair to Louis XIII and Anne of Austria - please understand, ilyala, I'm not going out of my way to disagree with you . . . But what I mean is that after 20 years of marriage, a change is diet or something could have affected either Louis or Anne's fertility . . . or of course Louis XIV and Philippe may have been illegitimate! : - )
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 11:20:37 AM
Mazarin was just Richelieu's advisor and well, it could be possible that Philippe was really Anne's bastard but, I can hardly believe it after Anne's behaviour all through her marriage...
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on August 11, 2005, 11:22:47 AM
i'm not saying either louis or philippe were bastards. i am just trying to spice things up a little :D

but i do find it peculiar the way they both came so late into the marriage... anne was way past her fertile years at that point...
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 11, 2005, 11:30:38 AM


Well, I suppose you all know about the miraculous conception of Louis XIV, don't you?


Louis XIII had been hunting all the evening of December 5th, 1637, when suddenly a huge storm made him return to Paris. His rooms were not prepared (you know, so many little things they had to do so that the king would be happy!) and someone suggested that Queen Anne could receive him in the Louvre.

Louis was reticent, but as there was no other option available, he resigned. He had dinner with his wife (whom he had not seen for months) and then, they slept together for the first time in years! Exactly nine months after that, day by day, Anne gave birth to Louis Dieudonné, future Louis XIV.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 11, 2005, 11:45:03 AM
Well, that settles that . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on August 12, 2005, 07:18:24 AM
wow! :)

so um what about philippe? :D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 12, 2005, 07:23:56 AM


 ;D


you are tireless, aren't you? he he he!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 13, 2005, 06:01:59 PM
Here's another pic of Minette:

(http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/fotos/Henriette-Anne-England.JPG)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 13, 2005, 06:10:46 PM

He really loved wearing those enormous red laces around his neck!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 13, 2005, 06:12:46 PM
Hey, umigon! God I am glad that someone else is online! Yes, Philippe does look rather ridiculous in that photo, doesn't he?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Grand Duke on August 13, 2005, 06:20:46 PM
Quote
Hey, umigon! God I am glad that someone else is online! Yes, Philippe does look rather ridiculous in that photo, doesn't he?


LOL, he looks like a rich clown!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 13, 2005, 06:23:21 PM
Yes, and his cheeks are suspiciously rosy . . . :- )
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 13, 2005, 06:24:32 PM


Yes, I am online, but I am afraid I am a bit asleep (you know, yesterday's friday night fever), so I might be going early to bed...


Its a pity no one ever painted a portrait of Philippe disguised as a woman... it would have been... 'interesting', at the least... :P
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 13, 2005, 06:27:32 PM
Quote

Yes, I am online, but I am afraid I am a bit asleep (you know, yesterday's friday night fever), so I might be going early to bed...


Its a pity no one ever painted a portrait of Philippe disguised as a woman... it would have been... 'interesting', at the least... :P


I don't think Philippe would have appreciated it!

Speaking of bed, I'm going to mine now. Talk to y'all tomorrow!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 13, 2005, 06:32:30 PM

I am of the same opinion!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 14, 2005, 07:59:42 AM
Thanks for those, Helene! Not exactly the most handsome man in the world . . . then again it is hard to see through the ridiculous fashions of his era to see what he really looked like.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 14, 2005, 09:10:54 AM





This Monsieur was quite a peculiar character, with those laces and his frivolous manners. But, apart from that, he was very well educated and cultivated a deep love for arts and lecture. A contradictory character, I suppose.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on September 29, 2005, 10:24:39 PM
Philippe was a toddler when his father, Louis XIII, died.  His education was deliberately neglected by his mother, Anne of Austria, the Regent of France.  Philippe's uncle Gaston had caused endless troubles for Louis XIII, and Anne was determined that Philippe would cause no difficulties for Louis XIV.  

Philippe was trained to be utterly subservient to Louis XIV, and their mother gave Louis the time, attention, and care that was never given to Philippe.  Philippe was encouraged to dress as a girl, to play with little boys who were also dressed as girls, and spent most of his time with his mother's ladies in waiting.  As an adult, Philippe was a dandy, social leader, expert on etiquette, and the patron of Moliere and other literary figures.

Philippe was very brave, and on the rare occasions he was permitted to do so, acquitted himself well on the battlefield.  I seem to remember reading that Philippe defeated William of Orange (William III) in battle, though it must be admitted that this was easy to do, since William was not a good general.

Minette has been idealized by her biographers, in my opinion.  It is true that she had a sad childhood.  She was abandoned by her mother soon after she was born, and captured by Parliament's forces.  Her governess escaped with her to France when Minette was a toddler.  Against the last wishes of her father, and to the horror of Charles II, Minette was converted to Catholicism.  

Minette spent her childhood with her neurotic mother, Henrietta Maria, at the convent of Chaillot.  Once in a while, Minette and her mother went to parties at the French Court, but they spent most of their time in relative isolation with the nuns.  Minette met her sister Mary only once while she lived in France, and rarely saw her brothers Charles, James or Henry.  When she was sixteen, Henrietta Maria arranged Minette's marriage with Monsieur, though she knew that he was a homosexual.

The marriage was a failure almost from the get-go.  Philippe thought he was in love with Minette, but a few weeks spent in her company cured him of that.  Minette was a frivolous young woman who held her husband in contempt, ignoring his good qualities and seeking comfort in the attention of other men.  It seems probable that Minette had affairs with Louis XIV and a few of the courtiers, which humiliated Philippe.  Anne of Austria and Henrietta Maria had to intervene when the scandal over Louis and Minette's affair started getting out of control, telling them to cool it, but the damage had been done.  Philippe spent more and more time with his boyfriends, few of whom had any use for Minette.  While it is true that Philippe was financially generous to his boyfriends, he was never in financial trouble, despite the claims of Liselotte, his second wife.  

Minette and Philippe had three children, two girls and a boy, but the boy died.  Philippe, almost completely estranged from Minette, began commenting happily on the fact that Minette looked ill, and confided in a few people that a fortune-teller had told him that he would have more than one wife.  Philippe was enraged when Minette and Louis XIV began meeting for political discussions.  They were negotiating the Treaty of Dover, but Philippe seems to have believed that their affair was starting up again, especially since neither would tell him what they were discussing.  Philippe began kicking people out of their household who were close to Minette, probably because he believed they were facilitating her affairs.  

It is true that Minette was thin; her death was caused by peritonitis from a perforated stomach ulcer.  It is possible that she was anorexic.  She certainly had a surfeit of energy, and was eager to party with the courtiers rather than rest or take care of her health.

All of this is just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 09:17:14 AM
Liselotte married Philippe a year after Minette’s death.  When Philippe met her, he was so flabbergasted by her appearance that he confided to his friends that he did not know how he would be able to sleep with her.  Liselotte was not a beauty, nor did she give herself airs or take much interest in clothes or jewelry.  Liselotte was a straight shooter who called a spade a spade; she was forthright, blunt and honest.  Louis XIV was delighted with Liselotte, who was the antithesis of Minette, that social butterfly.  

Philippe realized that Liselotte was different from Minette, and would never embarrass him by cheating on him.  Liselotte grew to understand that Philippe was, in his own way, devoted to her and protective of her.  While Philippe spent his days in a social whirl, Liselotte went riding and hunting. Liselotte generally wore a riding habit all day, and when she went to Court functions, Philippe sat her down to do her makeup, arrange her jewels, and supervise her choice of dress.  Liselotte didn’t like Philippe’s boyfriends, but she was a redoubtable fighter, and everyone at the French Court quickly learned not to give Liselotte trouble.  Philippe’s favorites realized that Liselotte was a real improvement over Minette, since Liselotte really didn’t care what they did, so long as it didn’t interfere with her riding, hunting, friendship with Philippe, or her children, for whom she fought like a tigress.  Unlike Minette, Liselotte caused no scandals.

Philippe and Liselotte worked as a team.  Philippe was particularly pleased by the fact that Liselotte was a devoted mother, and a loving stepmother to his two daughters from his first marriage.  Both Philippe and Liselotte spent a great deal of time with their children, and lived as a real family, unlike many of the royal and noble families of the day, who almost never saw each other.  Philippe spoiled the children, while Liselotte scolded and loved them with equal energy.  All of the children adored Liselotte, and after her stepdaughters married and left the Court, they kept in touch with her.

Philippe and Liselotte’s marriage went well until the marriage of their son to an illegitimate daughter of Louis XIV.  Philippe bowed to the inevitable, and did not protest the marriage, while Liselotte fought, which soured her relationship with Louis XIV and with her husband, who begged her to read the writing on the wall and accept the marriage with a good grace.  Their partnership was never as close as it had been in the past, but Philippe and Liselotte remained friends.

They had two children, a boy who grew up to become the Regent of France for Louis XV, and a girl who married into the House of Lorraine.  Through their children, Liselotte and Philippe were the ancestors of the current claimant of the French throne, as well as, through their grandson Francis of Lorraine’s marriage to Maria Theresa of Austria, the ancestors of the House of Habsburg.  Marie Antoinette was a great-granddaughter of Philippe and Liselotte.  

Liselotte wrote long letters every day to her family.   Her letters are one of the best sources for information about the Court of Louis XIV, but they must be used with caution.  Liselotte did not always tell the truth, and sometimes she simply repeated gossip and rumors.  

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 09:53:35 AM
I don't think Minette was contemptuous of Philippe, and I don't think she ever felt that Henrietta Maria had 'abandoned' her.

BTW, Charles I had always told Henrietta Maria that their last child would be hers to educate in religion.  Charles II was never really bothered by Minette's Catholocism, since she was, to all intents and purposes, a Frenchwoman.

I think she was willing to make the marriage work, as was Philippe, but they drifted apart very quickly. Minette's worst fault was her bad judgment, IMO, and her choice of friends.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 11:54:24 AM
Henrietta Maria fled from England a few weeks after Minette was born.  Charles I reached Minette a few weeks afterwards, and ordered Minette's baptism in the Anglican religion.  During the three years he was held prisoner, Charles ordered all of his children to obey their mother in everything except in matters of religion.  

Charles would have been horrified if he had known that Henrietta would convert Minette to Catholicism.  Minette was too young to know what she was doing, and unfortunately, continued her mother's habit of converting people, or trying to do so, even as an adult.

Some historians believe that the religious clauses in the Treaty of Dover requiring Charles II to convert to Catholicism were insisted upon by Minette, and that neither Louis XIV or Charles II took them seriously.   Lady Antonia Fraser, in "Royal Charles", raises this possibility.

I agree that Minette never felt abandoned by Henrietta Maria.  Smothered might be a better word.  It would have been better for Minette if she could have been sent to join her sister Mary in Holland than to be immured at Chaillot.  Henrietta was deeply depressed, and it was not a good or healthy upbringing for Minette to be cloistered with her.

As for Minette treating Philippe with respect, I have to disagree.  After her marriage, Minette quickly started up an affair with Louis XIV, and there is no more vivid gesture of disrespect than that.  She made bad worse by having other affairs.  Minette's reputation was so bad that when her nephew, the Duke of Monmouth, visited Paris, many believed that they were having an affair.  This wasn't true, but it gives an idea of what her contemporaries thought of Minette's fidelity.

I don't mean to suggest that Minette was evil; I must admit I don't think very highly of her.  I like the forthright Liselotte far better.  I also don't think that Philippe was anyone's dream husband by any means, but I think he has been unjustly vilified by Minette's biographers.

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 12:59:30 PM
Quote

All of this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.


Yes, actually, my mileage does vary.  ;)

There is absolutely NO concrete evidence that I have ever heard to suggest that Minette was Louis XIV's mistress. At the very least, Henrietta Maria certainly wouldn't have approved - she repeatedly scolded Minette over her indiscreet behaviour with others.

As for Charles I, I am positive that he granted his wife the right to educate their youngest child in relgion. It was Elizabeth and Henry he told to stay true to Protestantism (which they did) - Minette was far too young for him to 'forbid' her to do anything.

As to the Treaty of Dover, I have never heard any such theories, and I doubt Minette - whose political opinions were not as decided as her mother's - would have had much input, save that which came through Louis.

As you say, Minette was certainly not evil, and I must agree that she was no saint.

Still, if one is willing to make excuses for Philippe (ie his upbringing) then one must do so for Minette. Also, could Minette really be expected to have any respect for a husband who treated her like dirt before long, and conducted flagrant homosexual affairs with the likes of the Chevalier de Lorraine?

On a lighter note, I agree that the loquasious Liselotte is also a favourite of mine.  :)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on September 30, 2005, 01:19:04 PM

I tend to agree with both of you, Prince and palatine. However, I absolutely agree with palatine that today we have a "light" version of Minette. She was, as I said before in this same thread, a bit of a histerical woman, not very stable emotionally.

Both Philippe and Minette had received a disastrous education, the firsty one deliberately, the latter because of circumstances. Philippe treated Minette like dirt, true, but she wasn't behind him. From the start she made scandalous scenes in which she got to hit and throw dishes at Monsieur. About the affair with Louis XIV, it was commented by everyone in the Court and, in Simone de Bertière's book "Les Femmes du Roi Soleil" she affirms that the affair really occured, though I can't remember if she gave any evidence.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 01:21:47 PM
Thanks for contributing Umigon.  :)

In Alison Plowden's 'The Stuart Princesses' she equally affirms her opinion that the affair with Louis did not take place . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on September 30, 2005, 01:29:02 PM


Ok, lets agree then that we will never really know, because neither of them left a written confession! ;) But, why not? Why Louis would have bothered respecting Philippe's wife if she was not satisfied by him? She was very thin - not the likes of the times - but she was not only pretty, but lively! Why should have Louis not have an affair with her?


I try to say that Louis was a womanizer, and he had affairs with women of all categories. Why not with Minette? She was young, pretty, a princess and his not sexually satisfied sister-in-law...


And on Minette's part, why would she have resisted Louis's attempts if she then did have proven affairs with other men - at least with Armand de Gramont?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 01:37:56 PM
Perhaps Minette liked Louis as a cousin and friend, but not in a sexual way. Given her spirit, she would not have been above saying no.

As for Louis, perhaps he thought Charles would not be pleased if he slept with Minette? And perhaps he would not have wanted to upset Philippe? Or Henrietta Maria? Who knows? We certainly never will . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 02:16:22 PM
Henrietta Maria's marriage contract gave her full control over the education and religion of any children she might have with her husband, until the children were aged eleven.  This condition was not honored, however, which made Henrietta very angry.  

Charles may well have told Henrietta that she could have full control over their youngest child, including her religion, but Charles often told people what they wanted to hear.  

It is true that Charles did not leave specific directions for Minette's religion, aside from having her baptised in the Anglican faith, but at the time of his execution in 1649, he fully believed that his son and namesake, as well as the rest of the family, would be returning to England and reinstated.  Charles may not have believed leaving such instructions was necessary, since he had told his son and namesake, over and over, about the importance of the Anglican religion.  If Charles had wanted to make an exception for Minette, he would have gotten word to Charles II.  Throughout his captivity, Charles sent letters and messages to Charles II and his other children, admittedly not Minette, to stay true to the Anglican religion.  Just before he was executed, Charles met with his children Elizabeth and Henry, and urged them to remain true to the Anglican faith, even recommending books to read.  

Until he was thirteen, Charles had been brought up to be a bishop; he received a thorough grounding in the Anglican religion.  I believe that Charles would not have approved of Minette becoming a Catholic, no matter what he said or wrote to Henrietta to the contrary.  I believe Charles counted on his son and namesake to keep the family Anglican.  It is unfortunate that the Interregnum lasted eleven years, instead of the months Charles evidently foresaw.

The problem with Minette, as umigon pointed out, was that she did not have a good education.  She was not used to the French Court, or any other Court; there was some belief before her marriage that Minette would become a nun, and if Charles II's restoration had taken a few years longer to achieve, I think that is what would have happened.  Henrietta Maria simply did not prepare Minette to play a public role, though Henrietta did encourage Minette to dabble in politics after her marriage, for Charles II's sake.  I think she was in over her head from the beginning.  It is unfortunate that Minette did not spend a few years at the Court of Charles II in London before her marriage.  She brought out the best in Charles II, and he might have helped her learn to discern between flattery and true friendship, etc.

I really don't think Minette gave Philippe much of a chance when they married, and he was quick to find refuge with his boyfriends, some of whom were indeed nasty characters.  Philippe's boyfriends undoubtedly  encouraged the estrangement between Philippe and Minette.  The legend that one of his boyfriends had Minette poisoned, however, is ridiculous.  There can be little doubt that Philippe's circle of friends and boyfriends hated Minette, and tried to get her in trouble with Louis XIV and Philippe, but she wasn't an innocent victim either.  Minette caused problems for herself which Philippe's circle exploited.

It is true that there are no eyewitness reports about Minette's affairs.   However, it is also true that her biographers rely largely on the memoirs of Madame de Lafayette, who was eager, particularly after Minette's tragic death, to paint her in a good light.  I have difficulty believing that there was that much smoke without fire where Minette and her love life were concerned, having plowed through many of the Memoirs of that era.

All of this is just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 02:23:44 PM
I think it unlikely that Charles I, before his execution, believed his son and heir would be soon back in England - this was the Royalist's most despearate hour. Such blind optimism was hardly a characterisitic of Charles.

As to his having Minette baptised an Anglican, I beleive I can propound a plausible reason for this - he did not know that Minette's resourceful governess would smuggle her over to France quite soon, and he may have thought that after his death Minette would remain in England, like Henry and Elizabeth. If this was to be the case, he may well have thought that Cromwell and his allies may have looked upon Minette in a more favourable light if she was not a Catholic.

As to 'no smoke without fire' I can't really believe that - in royal circles there is always smoke without fire. To be sure, when Minette died, did not people cry poison? And yet, as we know, that was ridiculous. But if we follow the no smoke without fire theory, then there must have been reason to suspect that she was murdered.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 03:23:52 PM
If there is anything Charles should be remembered for, it is his optimism in the face of grim reality, but that's really a topic for the Stuart page.

Charles had Minette baptised on July 21, 1644, soon after his arrival in Exeter and just over a month after she was born.  When she was three months old, Charles appointed an Anglican, Dr. Thomas Fuller, to act as Minette's chaplain.  In late July 1646, Minette escaped to France thanks to her resourceful governess, Lady Dalkeith.  Lady Dalkeith had received orders from Parliament to bring the little girl to London, where she would be held prisoner with her siblings Henry and Elizabeth.  Lady Dalkeith chose to flee to France with Minette instead.  Dr. Fuller, along with most of Minette's household, was left behind.  
 
In "A Coffin for King Charles" by C.V. Wedgwood, it states that Charles thought his eldest son would be back in England and restored to power and authority, and that his execution would facilitate this.  Wedgwood was an authority on the era.  Many authors of the period make it clear that no one really knew what was coming next at the time that Charles came to trial, including Oliver Cromwell.  I do not agree that Charles had Minette baptised as an Anglican as a ruse to fool Cromwell or anyone else.  Charles wanted all of his children, and all of his subjects, to follow the Anglican faith.  He did not take his title of Defender of the Faith lightly.

It is true that after all his adventures in exile, Charles II would not have cared if Minette was a Druid; he was very tolerant where religion was concerned.  The problem at the time that Minette converted was the fact that Charles II was trying to raise money and support for a rising in England and Scotland, and it was politically damaging to have Minette become Catholic.   It hurt his standing with the Anglicans in England and the Presbyterians in Scotland.

We will have to agree to disagree about Minette's fidelity to her husband or lack thereof.  I don't think she was faithful, but I can understand why you think she was.  There is no certain proof either way.

All of this is just my opinion, and your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 04:27:27 PM
One of my reasons for thinking Charles did not think his son would be back soon was because he warned James (and later Henry) that they might possibly be set up as puppet Kings. Why would he say this if he thought his son would be Charles II before long? But as you say, that is for the Stuarts.

In the meanwhile, I would like to know more about Liselotte. Does anyone agree with me that her letters have more the flavour of a 19th century princess than one of the 17th century? I find her gossipy personality quite endearing . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on October 03, 2005, 05:53:19 AM
i don't think anyone in england thought the monarchy would be abolished after charles' execution. even cromwell was at a loss concerning what to do with the country, how to re-organize it after destroying all its structures. i think charles thought that he was gotten rid of in order to install some other monarch, a monarch that would be more complient to what cromwell and his people wanted. while charles would have been the heir, he was not the obvious choice, because he was a grown man, much harder to manipulate. so, if the revolutionaries were to place a new king on the throne, it had to be one of the younger ones, so that they could control the regency and his education. it is a well known fact that they wanted to place henry on the throne. cromwell, i believe, took him in front of the parliament to 'test his character', to see if he was anything like his father. it was said they were very pleased by him.

charles, being aware of that, made them promise they would not accept the throne. they did and that left his oldest son, charles as the candidate. there was no-one else, cause i don't think anyone would have gone to elizabeth stuart and place one of her kids on the throne. charles was the only one left. so, if the two children refused the throne and the monarchy was not to be abolished, he was likely to come back to england and be a king quite soon after his father's death.

for years, even after charles' death, noone actually believed that the country would NOT stay a monarchy. when they noticed that cromwell did not want charles on the throne, they offered him the crown. people at that time didn't conceive a republic.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 07, 2005, 10:27:54 AM
Quote

In the meanwhile, I would like to know more about Liselotte. Does anyone agree with me that her letters have more the flavour of a 19th century princess than one of the 17th century? I find her gossipy personality quite endearing . . .



On the whole I think her letters are very much of the seventeenth century. Her character remained stuck in the 1650s and 1660s as she never really adapted to Versailles. She was, as Maria Kroll aptly wrote, "a very square peg in a very round hole". I can't imagine 19th century (or even 20th C) princesses writing about bodily functions in the way Liselotte did.

Liselotte was very tolerant of her husbands sexuality. One of my favourite letters reminisces on the time her first son was conceived. In bed she suddenly heard an amazing clanking and rattling sound. Monsieur had brought an entire collection of rosaries, relics and religious images with him and was rubbing them on his body under the bedclothes!

Reading between the lines, I think Liselotte was a bit in love with the King, her brother in law. He is the only one she never has anything bad to say about! She hated his wife Mme de Maintenon as is well known. Liselotte knew that she wasn't his type, but Louis liked her and always treated her with the greatest respect.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 07, 2005, 11:39:15 AM
I don't mean what she said in her letters, but rather their gossipy and very personal style . . .
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 07, 2005, 12:31:53 PM
Quote
I don't mean what she said in her letters, but rather their gossipy and very personal style . . .


OK then, I agree!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on October 07, 2005, 04:23:59 PM
Quote

OK then, I agree!


Great!  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: trentk80 on October 17, 2005, 08:13:16 PM
Does anyone know if Queen Henrietta Maria had a close relationship with her granddaughter, Marie Louise of Orleans?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 04, 2005, 07:08:24 AM
Quote
Yes, and his cheeks are suspiciously rosy . . . :- )


You know, dear Prince, that it was custom for everyone, male and female, to wear rouge at Court. Phillippe probably applied it a bit more generously than other gentlemen did.

A very interesting discussion and I feel very sorry for Minette. It was difficult for her to be married to a  man who not only did not love her but did not even like women.

Queen Henrietta Maria, I think, died before she could really become acquainted with Minette's daughter.

Louis XVI was descended from the Stuarts through Minette, but I can never remember exactly how.

A great discussion!!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 07:58:25 AM
Quote


Louis XVI was descended from the Stuarts through Minette, but I can never remember exactly how.

A great discussion!!


Hey, Elena Maria!

Here is Louis XVI's descent from Minette:
Minette = Philippe d'Orleans

Anne-Marie d'Orleans = Vittoria Amedeo II of Savoy

Marie Adelaide of Savoy = Louis, Duc de Bourgogne

Louis XV of France = Maria  Leszczynska

Dauphin Louis of France = Maria Josepha of Saxony

Louis XVI of France!  :)

On a side note, Marie Antoinette was also descended from the Stuarts, through the son of Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 04, 2005, 08:05:27 AM
Thank you, Prince!  Alas for the tragic blood of Mary of Scotland. Marie-Antoinette was also related to Mary Stuart through her father, Francis of Lorraine. The House of Lorraine was known for its joie de vivre, among other things.

Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 08:09:30 AM
No problem Elena Maria.  :)

BTW, I've been trying to see if Monsieur had any Stuart blood, but it doesn't look like it. Of course, he and Minette were first cousins through the Bourbons, and Liselotte and Minette shared common Stuart blood. Monsieur and Liselotte also distant cousins.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 04, 2005, 02:18:09 PM
 There is a really good historical novel about all of this called "Royal Flush" by Margaret Irwin, for those who like historical fiction.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 02:53:53 PM
I love historical fiction! I've never heard of that - thanks Elena Maria!  :D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 04, 2005, 03:59:16 PM
You're welcome! She also wrote a novel about Minette's cousin Louise, daughter of Elizabeth Stuart, The Winter Queen, called "The Bride," as well as a trilogy about Elizabeth Tudor.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 04:01:58 PM
Thanks! Would you recommend the book about Minette, Elena Maria? I might have to go to amazon and punish the plastic.  ;D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on November 04, 2005, 08:20:09 PM
Margaret Irwin's novels are excellent, albeit somewhat idealized.  You should definitely try to track down her books, Prince.

Going back to something discussed earlier - Liselotte was very frank and outspoken in her letters to her German friends and relatives.  Its startling that Liselotte was as bold as she was when she criticized the French Court, since she knew that all of her letters were being read by Louis XIV's spies before being sent to their recipients.  Apparently, after Philippe died, Liselotte got in trouble over her letters, and had to promise to be more circumspect in the future.

All of this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 05, 2005, 10:59:44 AM
Thanks for the recommendation Palatine. I'll put them on my list.  ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 05, 2005, 02:06:35 PM
Quote
Thanks! Would you recommend the book about Minette, Elena Maria? I might have to go to amazon and punish the plastic.  ;D


Yes, Prince, I would totally recommend Margaret Irwin's "Royal Flush;" it is almost entirely about Minette, and while it IS a novel, it completely captures the tragedy of her life as the exiled daughter of Charles I and the unhappiness of her marriage. It is a colorful portrait of life at the Sun-King's court and of the woman who was perhaps the great love of his youth.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Modena on November 06, 2005, 06:34:18 PM
Quote
Margaret Irwin's novels are excellent, albeit somewhat idealized.  You should definitely try to track down her books, Prince.

Going back to something discussed earlier - Liselotte was very frank and outspoken in her letters to her German friends and relatives.  Its startling that Liselotte was as bold as she was when she criticized the French Court, since she knew that all of her letters were being read by Louis XIV's spies before being sent to their recipients.  Apparently, after Philippe died, Liselotte got in trouble over her letters, and had to promise to be more circumspect in the future.

All of this is just my opinion and feel free to disagree.


She kind of embellished what she knew. :) She was a character, that's for sure.
What was the expression? Beware the tongue of Liselotte?   ??? :P
Apparently she was more than a little in love with King Louis XIV and hated Madame de Maintenon.  :-X

But I digress...  ;D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Modena on November 06, 2005, 06:42:42 PM
Quote

Yes, Prince, I would totally recommend Margaret Irwin's "Royal Flush;" it is almost entirely about Minette, and while it IS a novel, it completely captures the tragedy of her life as the exiled daughter of Charles I and the unhappiness of her marriage. It is a colorful portrait of life at the Sun-King's court and of the woman who was perhaps the great love of his youth.


I personally love historical fiction. I have this book but haven't read it in awhile. :)

I believe that King Louis XIV and Minette were lovers early on in her marriage (1661?) and her first child MAY have been fathered by Louis and not by "Monsieur"  :-*
Letters to her brother, King Charles II are strangely absent from this time period. Did he know something and destroy the letters?  ;D
Just stirring up the pot a little.....  :D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 06, 2005, 06:51:42 PM
Margaret Irwin, in the novel, portrays the Queen-Mother Anne d'Autriche breaking up the romance between Louis and Minette before things got physical, fearing a MAJOR scandal, since Minette was Louis' brother's wife, which was considered incestuous (for him to sleep with her). I have read the same thing in some "real" history books - that they sent Louise de la Valliere into the picture to distract gossip from Minette and to possibly distract Louis from her.  He became infatuated with Louise and they had four children together before she became a nun.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: ilyala on November 07, 2005, 01:47:54 AM
was it more incestuous to sleep with your brother's wife than with your cousin?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 07, 2005, 04:18:03 AM
I would say yes, ilyala. Your sister-in-law was regarded as your sister in terms of law . . .

As for Minette and Louis, Umigon and I had this discussion earlier - there is no proof either way. I say she didn't Umigon says she did.  ;D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on November 07, 2005, 08:34:52 AM


She did... ;D


But yes, we reached the conclusion that as we will never know, we should agree to disagree...!!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on November 18, 2006, 06:14:53 AM
I know there are an old thread about Philippe d´Orleans, Minette and Liselotte. I enjoyed it so much and while I was reading it, I became deeply interested in Liselotte, so I was determined to start a thread focused  in this uncommon woman...

1.-Childhood and Early Youth

Elisabeth Charlotte -Liselotte- was born in 27th May 1652 in Heidelberg, capital of the Palatinate, regained by her father, Karl Ludwig (a son of Frederick V by Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen...) after the Thirty Years War. I´m very intriguing about Liselotte´s mother, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel. I haven´t found portraits or info about Charlotte, who borne three children to her husband: Charles in 1751, Liselotte in 1752 and Frederick in 1753. The marriage between Karl Ludwig and Charlotte was not a happy one. At the end, Karl Ludwig fell in love with a servant in their household, Marie Susanna Loysa von Degenfeld, named Louisa von Degenfeld. Louisa was a red-haired girl, seventeen years younger than Karl Ludwig. The Palatine divorced unilaterally his wife Charlotte in the last months of 1757 and  married (bigamously) Louisa in january 1758.

Liselotte was only five years old, but I wonder how was she impressed for the situation. So quickly, her father sent her to Herrenhausen, in Hannover, where a paternal aunt of the children, Sophie, was Electress since her marriage with Ernst August. Electress Sophie, heir presumptive of the british throne, took care of her little niece´s upbringing during the next four years. Sophie was very fond of Liselotte, and Liselotte remained always devoted to Sophie.

In 1663, Liselotte, aged eleven, returned to Heidelberg. She found not only her elder brother Charles, but also two half-brothers and three half-sisters. I suppose Liselotte felt some tenderness to her half-sisters, Karoline, Louise and Amalie Elisabeth, because a lot of years after, she wrotte a great number of letters to the half-sister Louise von der Pfalz.

2.-Marriage

Of course, Liselotte was a pawn of her father´s politics. She was bethroted in 1671 with Philippe, duke of Orleans, the younger brother of the powerful king Louis XIV of France. Philippe was eighteen years older than Liselotte. She had been chose to marry a widower with two little daughters from the first wife, Henriette of England, surnamed Minette. There was a gossip about the death of Minette aged twenty six: it was said she had been poisoned by her husband Philippe or maybe for the favourite of Philippe, the chevalier of Lorraine. The second marriage of the homosexual Philippe of Orleans with Liselotte was arranged by Anne of Gonzaga, a friend of the duke who was at the same time aunt of the palatinate girl.

So, Liselotte converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism, and she endured a miserable journey along bumpy roads from Heidelberg to Strasbourg. In Strasbourg, in a tearful day, Liselotte bade farewell to her father and her beloved aunt Sophie of Hannover. She was under the care of Anne of Gonzaga until she reached the french´s court.

At this time, Liselotte was a nineteen years old woman, intelligent, with a lively curiosity and sense of humour, with few pretentions to beauty and none to elegance. She managed well a very difficult marriage, since her husband needed to force himself to make love a woman and always had his male favourites around. But Liselotte was a good step-mother to Minette´daughters, and gave two sons (Alexandre and Philippe) and one daughter to the dinasty (Elisabeth Charlotte Philippine).
She never had fun "making babies", so, after the birth of Elisabeth, Monsieur and Madame had separate lives, although they treated with great courtesy each other.

More info will be welcomed!!




Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 18, 2006, 06:53:46 AM
Yes Liselotte was very fond of her half-sisters - her last letter was, as far as I remember, addressed to the Raugravine Luise. I think it is surprising (considering the low opinion she had of LouisXIV's legitimised children, and her own Orleans grandchildren) that she had such affection for her father's second family and shows great magnanimity of character. She judged people by their characters, and not for whether they were legitimate or not.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 18, 2006, 07:15:42 AM
She was a childhood friend of William of Orange, wasn't she? I think there was a story where she asked William (when they were both young) 'who is the woman with the red nose' and he replied 'that is my mother, the Princess Royal' (or something of the kind). ;D
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on November 18, 2006, 07:26:43 AM
Yes Liselotte was very fond of her half-sisters - her last letter was, as far as I remember, addressed to the Raugravine Luise. I think it is surprising (considering the low opinion she had of LouisXIV's legitimised children, and her own Orleans grandchildren) that she had such affection for her father's second family and shows great magnanimity of character. She judged people by their characters, and not for whether they were legitimate or not.

It´s a strange thing...Little girls usually didn´t like her father divorcing her mother to marry a young and attractive servant. But it seems that Liselotte "forgot" her ill-fated mother (anyone knows what happened with Charlotte?) and had a good relationship with Louisa and Louisa´s children. By the way, I don´t think Liselotte judged people for whether they were legitimate or not, but she had a prejudice against the illegitimate children: they might be always in a second plane. She was annoyed when her beloved son Philippe was compelled to marry Louis XIV and Mme de Montespan´s daughter, because, althought the girl was fathered by a great king, she was born out of wedlock, so she wasn´t a princess of blood but a simply Mademoiselle de Blois. Of course, it could have been another ideas flowing in the mind of our Liselotte...at the end, the bride of her son was the daughter of a woman involved in the most infamous scandal of their epoch.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on November 18, 2006, 09:22:16 AM
Liselotte had an excellent reason to despise Louis XIV's illegitimate children, especially the Duc de Maine.  She resented the transparent efforts of Madame de Maintenon and Maine to aggrandize the illegitimate children and to change the succession laws in a way that might hurt her beloved son Philippe.  She tried but failed to keep a marriage from being arranged between Philippe and one of Louis's illegiitmate daughters, in part because she understood it was part of Maintenon's plan to tie the illegitimate children closer to the legitimate members of the royal family, and in part because the girl had no eyebrows and a severe hunchback that gave her a pronounced limp.  Maine wanted his father to make it possible for him to become king, or at least regent, in due course, and he was eager to become popular with the court and the people at Philippe’s expense.  Philippe's wife seems to have approved of her brother's efforts, perhaps because she thought they would increase her own social status; she didn't care a bit that he was hurting her husband in the process. 

Maintenton and Maine spread ugly rumors about Philippe and kept him from getting posts and commands because they wanted to create the impression that he was unfit to hold power.  As years passed and their calumnies spread, it was widely believed that Maine would become the regent for the future Louis XV instead of Philippe, who'd become such a pariah that the only friends he had at court were Liselotte and the Duc de Saint-Simon.  Liselotte was powerless to help Philippe; all she could do was revile Maintenon and the illegitimate children in her letters.  Saint-Simon, who was similarly powerless, reviled Maintenon and Maine in his diaries.  They understood that the slanders and the forced inactivity were destroying Philippe’s better qualities (he really did have them).  When Louis died, with Saint-Simon’s help, Philippe seized power and smacked down Maine, so to speak, and made him the pariah that he himself had once been, to Liselotte's great delight.   
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on November 18, 2006, 02:13:31 PM
For sure, Liselotte was an enemy for Françoise Scarron, Mme of Maintenon. Françoise was the one who brought up the children of Athenaïs of Montespan, and, as far as I know, the elder sister of Athenaïs, Louise Françoise, mademoiselle of Nantes, remain very fond of her mother and rejected Maintenon, but the younger ones, Françoise Marie and Louis August, duke of Maine, followed always the line traced by Maintenon...I can understand Maintenon´s support of Louis August, the favourite son of the king and also her own pupil. But I suppose Liselotte was really shocked when in the summer of 1714, king Louis attributed to his illegitimate but legitimized sons rights to the throne if the legitimate line would die out.

Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on November 19, 2006, 10:27:18 AM
About Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel, from Leo Van de Pas's page:

The marriage between Charlotte and her cousin Karl Ludwig, Elector Palatine, was regarded as highly advantageous. However, it was her own mother who tried to warn the Elector of Charlotte's foul temper.

At first all went well as Karl Ludwig became wildly infatuated with his wife and with gusto started his task of providing the Palatinate with an heir. After all, she was a tall blonde girl, with long legs and a beautiful bust, so that Karl Ludwig could hardly keep his hands off her. According to his sister Sophie, 'his passion had impaired his intellect'.

If Charlotte so much as glanced at another man, Karl Ludwig was jealous. If she criticised him, he would go into a rage but their quarrels were made up at night with audible violence. According to Sophie, Charlotte was hopeless and stupid. In conversation Charlotte had only one topic: herself. She was a good horse-woman, but Karl Ludwig objected to women on horseback; she loved gambling, which Karl Ludwig regarded as a waste of money.

Charlotte ruined her relations with Sophie when she admitted that she had married Karl Ludwig against her own wishes, she would have preferred several others over this 'jealous old man'. Soon it was Charlotte who became jealous of Sophie who seemed to be on much better terms with Karl Ludwig. Charlotte felt herself excluded from their conversations and never understood their jokes.

To the joy of the Palatinate and Karl Ludwig, a son was born in 1651 and in 1652 a daughter. When Karl Ludwig went to the Electors' Diet in Prague, he infuriated Charlotte by not taking her with him. At this time Louise von Degenfeld came to their court and was regarded as not very pretty and naive, which was as it should be as she was only sixteen years old.

After his return Karl Ludwig took his wife and his sisters, Elisabeth and Sophie, to the festivities accompanying the coronation of Archduke Charles as his father's successor. Charlotte was again furious as she was pregnant and unable to wear the French dresses especially bought for the occasion. However, the baby when born dead a few hours later and Charlotte was very ill and could not be moved for weeks.

In 1654 Karl Ludwig's brother, Prince Rupert, came to visit Heidelberg and soon Charlotte realised Rupert was pursuing Louise von Degenfeld. To prevent nocturnal visits, Charlotte made Louise sleep in her own bedroom. Trying to protect Louise from Rupert, she had not realized that her own husband had fallen in love with the same girl. However, one night Charlotte woke up and, maintaining that she had found her husband in bed with Louise, she attacked the girl, almost biting off her little finger. Karl Ludwig protected Louise and called in the guard to restrain Charlotte. The following day Karl Ludwig installed Louise in an apartment directly above his own, had a hole cut in the ceiling and with the help of a ladder was able to visit her. Soon Charlotte found out and had to be prevented from ascending the same ladder with a knife in her hand and murder in her heart.

From now on Charlotte maintained that she was kept a prisoner in her apartments. She would beat her servants and, if they were found to be spying on her behalf, were dismissed by her husband. Karl Ludwig made sure not to be anywhere near Charlotte, who was pitied by everyone. According to his ancient powers he divorced Charlotte but kept this a secret until after his sister Sophie's wedding. As soon as these festivities were over, Karl Ludwig published the divorce documents and declared himself to be married to Louise von Degenfeld. However, many questioned the legality of the divorce.

Charlotte then lived in obscurity, only to emerge after the death of Karl Ludwig, in 1680, when their son became the next Elector Palatine. However, she had remained difficult and ill-tempered and, when she died in 1686, it was said of the maids who wrapped her into her shroud that this was a unique occassion as 'It was the first time anyone had dressed the Electress without being beaten'.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on November 19, 2006, 02:07:22 PM
Umigon, you´re amazing! You have always valuable information about almost unknown people or facts in their lives...;) I see that Charlotte was a tempestuous woman. Anyone knows what thought Liselotte about such a mother?.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: CountessKate on November 22, 2006, 03:35:14 AM
She seems to have had a reasonably civil relationship with her, largely by keeping a distance - living in a foreign country helped.  There are a very few references in her letters to conversations with her mother - in 1683 she mentions to Sophie that "The Electress, my mother, told me herself at Domfaessel that she found my husband changed.  He was really quite well, but was afraid that the Electress would begin to talk about what happened, so he was very ill at ease.  Luckily for me (and to tell the truth, at my own request) mother said nothing about it to him, and now that everything is fairly peaceful, I think that we should let sleeping dogs lie.......I did not suggest that we arrange a meeting, because they say continually here that my uncle wants to declare war on the king and is raising troops for the purpose, so I thought that a meeting just now would be very indiscreet."

I've no idea what Liselotte didn't want her mother to refer to - though she wrote in another letter at the same time "My troubles stem more from Monsieur than from anyone else",  but at any rate, this shows that Charlotte could behave herself and take a hint, at least from her very well-connected daughter.  The only other reference I can find is in yet another letter to Sophie when she tells her that her mother had said "it was a shame to see how badly my brother's house was appointed; there was scarcely a bed or a chair in the whole castle".  If she wrote any of her marvellous letters to her mother, none have survived, but I suspect she didn't - she clearly treated her rather warily.

Just an observation to add to Palatine's post about Liselotte's reason for disliking the marriage of her son to Mlle de Blois - the latter did have light eyebrows, but only had one shoulder higher than the other and a slight limp.  She was generally considered to be quite pretty, by the standards of Versailles.  If she had been legitimate and very well born, Liselotte would not have had the slightest objection.  I love Liselotte, but there is no doubt she was not sane with regard to the bastards of Louis XIV
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Marie Valerie on December 27, 2006, 08:03:39 AM
(http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0016/m502004_77ee394_p.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 27, 2006, 12:01:21 PM


Hi Marie Valerie!

Don't think this is Liselotte - maybe her daughter in law, the Duchess of Orléans?
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: palatine on December 27, 2006, 12:55:58 PM

Don't think this is Liselotte - maybe her daughter in law, the Duchess of Orléans?

It's a portrait of Liselotte's daughter Elisabeth Charlotte, Duchess of Lorraine.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 28, 2006, 09:18:53 AM
That makes sense to me - there is a sort of facial resemblance to her mother!  8)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: britt.25 on December 28, 2006, 09:54:58 AM
It´s strange with this picture, because sometimes I saw it identificated as Liselotte and sometimes as her daughter, but in the most cases it was her daughter, who was the mother of Franz Stephan of Lothringen, husband of empress Maria Theresia ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on December 28, 2006, 04:08:25 PM
I´m sure she´s Elisabeth Charlotte ;) By the way, another portrait of Liselotte´s daughter with her little son Franz Stephan:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/ElisabethCharlotteduchessLorraine.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: britt.25 on December 29, 2006, 02:21:52 AM
That´s a wonderful picture, and it´s very similar to the first. Where can it be found? Do you have it (or the link for it) in a bigger size?

Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 29, 2006, 04:11:51 AM
It's also quite sad, because Elisabeth Charlotte Jr. lost many of her children in infancy - Franz Stefan being one of the few survivors.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yseult on December 29, 2006, 06:00:51 AM
That´s a wonderful picture, and it´s very similar to the first. Where can it be found? Do you have it (or the link for it) in a bigger size?

Thanks ;)

So sorry, britt, but I don´t know where I found this picture. I´m always searching through the websites and I collect images, but it´s not easy to remember where I found this or that... I just have two images of Elisabeth Charlotte with her son, the one that I posted and another that I will post right now.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/ElisabethCharlotteduchessLorrainewi.jpg)

PD: By the way, I hope you had a merry christmas and I wish you a new year fullfilled with happy moments ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: britt.25 on December 29, 2006, 11:30:47 AM
Thanks very much for the greeting ;)

I wish you the same :D

This picture is very nice, too. I never saw pictures with Elisabeth Charlotte and her children or her son Franz Stephan. He looks very much Bourbon on this picture, it´s fascinating. But it´s tragic, if once consider that his daughter Marie Antoinette, who wasn´t very famous in France also because of her austrian roots had so much Bourbon blood herself and descended from many Bourbon kings, and from the brother of Ludwig XIV.
It would really be interesting to have the pictures in a bigger size, I will try to find them. If you remember any source please post it. This portrait of young Franz Stephan also reminds me of the young Philippe V., the first Bourbon king of Spain, and grandson of Ludwig, the sun king. Interesting ;) Since I had an interesting lesson about that topic at the university  some years ago (about the spanish war after the death of Karl II. ) I am very interesting in that figures.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on August 16, 2008, 11:28:23 AM
Actually in her letters Liselotte states many times that she knows that her letters are being read. Some of them even have a preface to the French government saying something along the lines of [PLEASE NOTE: following is not an exact quote] "please read this letter quickly and then send it along to final destination."  She also says how when the government was run by a different man her letters were read and re-sealed quickly but the new postmaster took too long to read them and then send them along to Germany. In some of her letters she even says something like [PLEASE NOTE: following is not an exact quote] "if you are reading this king's old whore...)

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 16, 2008, 02:05:49 PM
At the very beginning of this topic someone wrote that Philippe's first wife Henriette Anne had 8 and his second wife Elisabeth Charlotte had 3 three children. Could you please give me there names and dates? I had a look at Theroff's sites and he only listed the following:

Henriette Anne:

1b) Marie Louise (Palais Royal 27 Mar 1662-Madrid 12 Feb 1689); m.by proxy at Fontainebleau 31 Aug 1679 and in person at Quintanapalla 18 Nov 1679 King Carlos II of Spain (Madrid 6 Nov 1661-Madrid 1 Nov 1700)

2b) Philippe Charles Duc de Valois (Fontainebleau 16 Jul 1664-Palais Royal 8 Dec 1666)

3b) Anne Marie (St.Cloud 27 Aug 1669-Turin 26 Aug 1728); m.by proxy at Palais Royal 10 Apr 1684 and in person at Chambéry 6 May 1684 Vittorio Amedeo II, King of Sardinia, Duke of Savoy (Turin 14 May 1666-Moncalieri 31 Oct 1732)


Elisabeth Charlotte:

4b) Alexandre Louis Duc de Valois (St.Cloud 2 Jun 1673-Palais Royal 16 Mar 1676)

5b) Philippe Duc d'Orléans, Regent of France 1715-1723 (St.Cloud 2 Aug 1674-Versailles 2 Dec 1723); m.Versailles 18 Feb 1692 Françoise Marie de Bourbon, called Mlle de Blois, legitimated daughter of King Louis XIV (Château de Maintenon 4 May 1677-Paris 1 Feb 1749)

6b) Élisabeth Charlotte (St.Cloud 13 Sep 1676-Commercy 23 Dec 1744); m.Fontainebleau 23 Oct 1698 Leopold Joseph Charles Duke of Lorraine (Innsbruck 11 Sep 1679-Lunéville 27 Mar 1729)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: umigon on August 16, 2008, 05:48:09 PM

I am not at home right now, so I don't have my information, but Minette had several stillbirths and miscarriages: a total of 5.

Whenever I'm home I'll post the info here!
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Mari on August 16, 2008, 10:32:56 PM
This is what I found for Henrietta Anne:

A daughter born July 9, 1665 ; died after.
Not unusually for the era, Henriette had four miscarriages 1663, 1666, 1667, 1668.[5]


 (5)  Royal Genealogy, Information on Stuart, Henrietta Anne
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on August 26, 2009, 10:53:57 AM
Anne Marie d'Orléans (Saint-Cloud, 27 August, 1669 – Turin, 26 August 1728) was the Queen consort of Sardinia and the maternal grandmother of Louis XV of France. She was the first Queen Consort of Sardinia under the House of Savoy.

Does Anyone Know Anything Interesting About Her?! She Seems Rather Ignored If You Ask Me LOL

Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: gogm on August 26, 2009, 12:53:04 PM
I have three images of Anne Marie d'Orleans:

(http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/20675/2547540650094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2547540650094285158eFNouY)

(http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/19290/2553345210094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2553345210094285158fkAHxV)

and
(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/42166/2964572440094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2964572440094285158BzwPcL)

Her Wikipedia article:
"Anne Marie d'Orléans, Queen of Sardinia (Saint-Cloud, 27 August, 1669 – Turin, 26 August 1728) was the Queen consort of Sardinia and the maternal grandmother of Louis XV of France. She was the first Queen Consort of Sardinia under the House of Savoy.

Her descendants include the present members of the royal Houses of Savoy, Parma and Spain.

Biography

Anne Marie d'Orléans was born in the Château de Saint-Cloud. Her parents were Philippe de France, duc d'Orléans and Princess Henrietta Anne of England. Her paternal grandparents were Louis XIII of France and Anne of Austria. Her maternal grandparents were Charles I of England and Henriette Marie de France. Her elder surviving sister was Marie Louise d'Orléans, who became the Queen of Spain when Anne Marie was ten years old. Their mother died at the Château de Saint-Cloud ten months after Anne Marie's birth. Her mother had collapsed at Saint-Cloud and died at the age of 26;

At the time of her death, it was widely believed that Henrietta-Anne had been poisoned by friends of her husband’s jealous lover and exiled favourite, the Chevalier de Lorraine. An autopsy was performed, however, and it was reported that Henrietta-Anne had died of peritonitis caused by a perforated ulcer.

Despite these allegations, a year later, her father married Elizabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate who became very close to her stepdaughters. The plain looking German women was 21 at the time of the marriage. Like Anne Marie's mother, Elizabeth Charlotte would be known as Madame. Three children were born from that marriage.

    * Alexandre Louis d'Orléans, Duke of Valois (2 June 1673 – 16 March 1676);
    * Philippe Charles d'Orléans (2 August 1674 – 2 December 1723);
    * Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans (13 September 1676 – 24 December 1744).

After her sister Marie Louise were married, Anne Marie was addressed to as Mademoiselle. This denoted her status as the most important unmarried lady at Court. Anne Marie was also known as Madame Royale and Mademoiselle de Valois. (Continued in another posting.)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: gogm on August 26, 2009, 12:53:44 PM
Finishing her Wikipedia article - "Marriage

On 10 April 1684, Anne Marie was married at Versailles, by proxy, to Víctor Amadeus II, Duke of Savoy and future king of Sicily (1713) and Sardinia (1720), and the only son of Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy and his second wife, Marie Jeanne of Savoy-Nemours. The newlyweds met at Chambéry on 6 May of the same year to have another marriage ceremony in Turin, capital of the Duchy of Savoy. Her father accompnanied his daughter as far as Juvisy-sur-Orge not far from Paris.

Known as Anna Maria in Savoy, the arranged marriage was not very happy. They had eight children, two of them stillborn.

At the age of ten, Anne Marie's eldest child, Marie-Adélaïde, was betrothed to the son of her cousin Louis, Dauphin of France; the eldest son of Louis was the Duke of Burgundy. This match was decided as part of the Treaty of Turin, which ended Franco-Savoyard conflicts during the Nine Years' War, and Marie-Adélaïde was sent to Versailles in order to learn her role as the future Dauphine and eventual Queen. By 1711 Marie-Adélaïde was the Dauphine of France but she died in 1712 of smallpox.

In June 1701 her father died at Saint-Cloud; her half brother and his wife Françoise-Marie de Bourbon thus became the new Duke and Duchess of Orléans. In the same year on 2 November, Maria Luisa, (Anne Marie's third daughter) then barely thirteen years old, married, the French born prince Philip, duc d'Anjou who had just become Philip V of Spain. The young princess would become Regent of Spain while her husband was away campaigning in Italy; she was a favourite with the Spanish court and would make Anne Marie the maternal grandmother of the Louis I of Spain and Ferdinand VI of Spain.

In 1706, Anne Marie's uncle, Louis XIV of France (along with Spanish forces from Anne Marie's second cousin Philip V of Spain) besieged Turin during the Battle of Turin. French troops were under the control of Anne Marie's half brother, the Duke of Orléans. She and her sons, Victor Amadeus and Carlo Emanuele, were forced to flee Turin. The Savoyard consort had the use of the Royal Palace of Turin and the vast Palazzina di caccia di Stupinigi outside the capital.

As a result of his aid in the War of the Spanish Succession Victor Amadeus II was made King of Sicily in 1713 under the Treaty of Utrecht which ended the war. When her step mother Madame heard of the news back in France, she wrote:  ' I shall neither gain nor lose by the peace, but one thing i shall enjoy is to see our Duchess of Savoy become a queen, because I love her as though she were my own child...'

Victor Amadeus was forced to exchange Sicily for the less important kingdom of Sardinia in 1720 after objections from an alliance of four nations, including several of his former allies. The kingdom of Sicily went to Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor - father of Maria Theresa of Austria. Due to this rise of rank, Anne Marie and her husband became entitled to the style of Your Majesty.

A favourite haunt for the consort was the Vigno di Madama.[5] This had been used by a previous French consort, Anne Marie's great-aunt Princess Christine Marie of France (1606-1663), and later on, her daughter, Maria Adélaïde recreated this little hideaway by having the Ménagerie at Versailles remodeled

Anne Marie died at the Royal Palace of Turin on 26 August 1728. Her husband, Víctor Amadeus II, abdicated in favour of his son in 1730, and died two years later in Moncalieri. She was buried at the Basilica of Superga in Turin; all her children except Marie-Adélaïde and Maria Luisa can be found there.

Her husband outlived her till his 66'th year dying in 1732 having married morganatically.

Jacobite succession

From 1714 to 1720, Anne Marie was the heiress presumptive to the Jacobite claim to the thrones of England, Scotland, and Ireland, which was held at the time by James Francis Edward Stuart, styling himself 'James III and VIII.' She became his heir on 1 August 1714, upon the death of his elder sister Anne, and was displaced as his heir by the birth of the Old Pretender's son, Charles Edward Stuart, on 31 December 1720.

Through Anne Marie descend the current post-Stuart legitimist claims of the Jacobites to the English and Scottish thrones.

In 1807, almost eighty years after her death, Cardinal Henry Benedict Stuart died. He was the last of the descendants of her uncle, King James II of England. The Jacobites viewed the legitimate succession to the English and Scottish thrones as devolving upon the senior living descendant of King Charles I. In 1807, the Jacobite pretender became Charles Emmanuel IV of Sardinia, the great-grandson of Anne Marie d'Orléans and Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia.

Issue

    * Princess Maria Adelaide of Savoy (1685-1712); married Louis, Duke of Burgundy and was the mother of Louis XV of France;
    * Princess Maria Ana of Savoy (1687-1690);
    * Princess Maria Luisa Gabriella of Savoy (1688-1714); first wife of Philip V of Spain;
    * Princess X of Savoy (stillborn child, 1691);
    * X of Savoy (stillborn child, 1697);
    * Prince Victor Amadeus John Philip of Savoy (1699-1715), Prince of Piedmont;
    * Prince Carlo Emanuele of Savoy (1701-1773); the next Duke of Savoy and King of Sardinia.
    * Prince Emanuele Philibert of Savoy (1705-1705) Duke of Chablais."
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: gogm on August 26, 2009, 01:25:30 PM
I found one more image:
(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/45508/2503710440094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2503710440094285158TjsGiE)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Mari on September 09, 2009, 01:03:36 AM
 SECTION XXXV.—VICTOR AMADEUS, KING OF SICILY.

It is said that the King of Sicily is always in ill humour, and that he is always quarrelling with his mistresses. He and Madame de Verrue have quarrelled, they say, for whole days together. I wonder how the good Queen can love him with such constancy; but she is a most virtuous person and patience itself. Since the King had no mistresses he lives upon better terms with her. Devotion has softened his heart and his temper.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3859/3859-h/3859-h.htm#2H_SECT08http://
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on September 21, 2009, 06:43:15 PM
I found some images:
(http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e8/Anne_Marie_d%27Orl%C3%A9ans_-_Duchess_of_Savoy.jpg/180px-Anne_Marie_d%27Orl%C3%A9ans_-_Duchess_of_Savoy.jpg)
Monument
[img][http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EDXopIHjAqA/SkXeglqf5gI/AAAAAAAAE_U/vXNnKeh6YIs/s320/Anne+Marie+Louise+d%27Orleans.JPG/img]
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on September 22, 2009, 07:41:39 PM
I recently created a wikipedia article of her eldest son named "Victor Amadeus, Prince of Piedmont";
haaas anyone seeen a pic of him? i want to upload it to wikipedia lol


Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 07, 2009, 07:25:16 PM
i wish i could have met her =[ ..she helped her husband mistress Jeanne Baptiste d'Albert de Luynes recover from suspected poisoning..now that is nice considering the circumstance lol
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 31, 2009, 10:24:52 AM
does anyone know when and where she was baptised; alsoo her relationship with her children; i hear she spoke to her eldest, Marie Adélaïde, later Dauphine of France; what about the Queen of Spain, Prince of Piedmont and the future King Charles Emmanuel III??
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Bourgogne on November 12, 2009, 07:56:45 AM
She was baptized the 8 april 1670 in the chapel of the Palais-Royal, in Paris (the parisian residence of the Orléans), by Louis de la Vergne de Tressan, bishop of Vabres, later bishop of Le Mans, first chaplain of Monsieur.

Her godfather and godmother were his first cousin the "Grand Dauphin" (Louis XIV's son) and the first cousin of her father, the "Grande Mademoiselle".

She had very closed relationships with all her children, who all absolutely adored their mother.

For example, the Queen of Spain wrote to her mother from Madrid, 29 march 1703, this words : "Quels moyens y a-t-il de vous connaître sans vous aimer à la folie, pour moi du moins je ne le comprends pas!" ("How would it be possible to know you without loving you madly, that's what I could'nt understand!"

And, because the Queen of Spain wrote more often to Anne-Marie than the duchess of Burgondy did, Marie-Adélaïde wrote : "J'envie la facilité que la reine d'Espagne a pour écrire, mais je vous assure que je ne lui cède en rien dans les sentiments de mon coeur..." ("I envy the fluency of the Queen of Spain for writing, but I swear that I'm not defeated by her, concerning the feelings of my heart...")

A portrait made in Paris at the time of her betrothal :

(http://sitesweb.dnsalias.net/images/Sn/AnnaMaria.jpg)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 12, 2009, 01:30:08 PM
Incidentally, when her first cousin Anne Stuart, Queen of Great Britain (1665-1714) died, she left instructions that all her jewels were to be given to Anne-Marie, her closest surviving female relative. Perhaps Anne had fond memories of her - as a child, she'd suffered from terrible eyesight and had been sent to France in the hope of treatment there being better. After the death of her grandmother, Queen Henrietta Maria, Anne was moved to the household of her aunt, the Duchesse d'Orleans, and thus spent some time in the nursery with her cousins Marie-Louise and Anne-Marie. George I, Anne's successor, didn't honour her wish.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 12, 2009, 02:17:03 PM
Very interesting posts!! Thanks for the information!! Beautiful portrait ;-)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on November 12, 2009, 03:07:58 PM
She was baptized the 8 april 1670 in the chapel of the Palais-Royal, in Paris (the parisian residence of the Orléans), by Louis de la Vergne de Tressan, bishop of Vabres, later bishop of Le Mans, first chaplain of Monsieur.

Her godfather and godmother were his first cousin the "Grand Dauphin" (Louis XIV's son) and the first cousin of her father, the "Grande Mademoiselle".

She had very closed relationships with all her children, who all absolutely adored their mother.

For example, the Queen of Spain wrote to her mother from Madrid, 29 march 1703, this words : "Quels moyens y a-t-il de vous connaître sans vous aimer à la folie, pour moi du moins je ne le comprends pas!" ("How would it be possible to know you without loving you madly, that's what I could'nt understand!"

And, because the Queen of Spain wrote more often to Anne-Marie than the duchess of Burgondy did, Marie-Adélaïde wrote : "J'envie la facilité que la reine d'Espagne a pour écrire, mais je vous assure que je ne lui cède en rien dans les sentiments de mon coeur..." ("I envy the fluency of the Queen of Spain for writing, but I swear that I'm not defeated by her, concerning the feelings of my heart...")

A portrait made in Paris at the time of her betrothal :

(http://sitesweb.dnsalias.net/images/Sn/AnnaMaria.jpg)

i see =] i did not realise she had such a good relationship with the daughters..Anne Marie, like most women of the time is simply seen as the mother of the the King of this and the grandmother of that - its a shame..

does anyone know the painter of this charming portrait? i know that she was good looking but her older sister Marie Louise d'Orléans (wife of the foul Charles II of Spain) was the best loooking of all and Élisabeth Charlotte [half sister] was the least unattractive..but back to the point hah who painted it?!

Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Bourgogne on November 13, 2009, 05:12:43 AM
Maybe she had so good relationships with her daughters because herself was not loved at all by her own mother, when she was a child. Henriette of England had already a daughter and wanted a son, so, when she gave birth to Anne-Marie, she asked immediately : "It's a boy?" "No it's a girl", they said. She was furious and answered : "A girl! You can throw her into the river!"

This portrait is by Ferdinand Elle and was sent from Paris in Torino before the wedding, it was the official presentation portrait!
But Anne-Marie's father was not really content of this portrait, because he said that her daugther was more beautiful. He said to the ambassador of Savoy that he would send another portrait, by Mignard, a little later. This one was just "for the meantime".
It's today in Torino, but in a "private collection" (unfortunately).

Yes, like duchesse de Chartres, I think the more beautiful of the sisters were Marie-Louise, she was not "pretty" but so distinguinshed (I must say I don't find the exact word in english, in french the word is "racé", that means we can see on her face that she's got very illustrous birth, full-blood).

But Anne-Marie was nice too.

By the way it's funny to see how Marie-Louise and Anne-Marie had the face of their father, with just a little something of their mother. The sisters were very "mediterranean", because the duke AND the duchess of Orléans were from Medici descent.

For their half-sister Elisabeth-Charlotte, I always found her portraits were charming, I don't find her bad at all. But it's true that her mother wrote : "She has pretty much the same appearance as the Queen of Spain (Marie-Louise), if you remember ; but she's not like her at all concerning the face. She's got a beautiful skin, but all her features are ugly : a ugly nose, a big mouth, drawn eyes and a plat face..."
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Mari on November 13, 2009, 06:38:25 AM
Another description of Anne Marie d'Orleans:


Quote
Anna could not compare with her sister either in beauty or sparkling flashes of wit that scintillated through the brilliant repartee of Marie Louise. As regards her appearance, the following is the portrait of Anna at about the age of fifteen by Madame de Farverges: Anna of Orleans was tall and of the type of beauty to be found in the House of Bourbon. Her face was oval she had a high forehead, eyes well placed, aquiline nose, smiling lips, and an air of dignity tempered by an expression of great goodness.
Quote

also "the extreme gentleness and goodness of Princess Anna were her salient features."
p. 138 from the romance of Savoy, Victor Amadeus

p. 155 contains letter in Anne Marie's own handwriting

http://www.archive.org/stream/romancesavoyvic00unkngoog#page/n184/mode/2up






http://www.archive.org/stream/romancesavoyvic00unkngoog#page/n166/mode/2up
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on November 16, 2009, 01:48:43 PM
Another description of Anne Marie d'Orleans:


Quote
Anna could not compare with her sister either in beauty or sparkling flashes of wit that scintillated through the brilliant repartee of Marie Louise. As regards her appearance, the following is the portrait of Anna at about the age of fifteen by Madame de Farverges: Anna of Orleans was tall and of the type of beauty to be found in the House of Bourbon. Her face was oval she had a high forehead, eyes well placed, aquiline nose, smiling lips, and an air of dignity tempered by an expression of great goodness.
Quote

also "the extreme gentleness and goodness of Princess Anna were her salient features."
p. 138 from the romance of Savoy, Victor Amadeus

p. 155 contains letter in Anne Marie's own handwriting

http://www.archive.org/stream/romancesavoyvic00unkngoog#page/n184/mode/2up






http://www.archive.org/stream/romancesavoyvic00unkngoog#page/n166/mode/2up

Monsieur/Madame Mari, thank you for the link to the first years of Anne Marie's marriage;  it goes into much detail on the etiquette [Monsieur Bourgogne would be quite impressed ;) lol] of her marriage ceremony and her arrival to Savoy etc..
sadlyy is does not go into her later life =[ do you know why this is?

i defiantly recommend this for people lol =] the book also has a portrait of Anne Marie in her later life...

Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on November 16, 2009, 02:03:55 PM
(http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/image/joconde/0016/m502004_77ee394_p.jpg)

LOL! Just to clarify, this portrait is of Élisabeth Charlotte d'Orléans, future Duchess of Lorraine and paternal grandmother of Marie Antoinette and Maria Carolina, Queen of Naples.

I have often thought that Élisabeth Charlotte looked like her mother, she was much more plain then her older half sisters Marie Louise (1662-1689) and Anne Marie (1669-1728). As of now, i do not know who the painter is..does anyone else know [even though this thread is old =[ ..... ]
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: CountessKate on November 17, 2009, 07:04:16 AM
It's by that well-known artist, 'anonyme' according to Base Joconde.
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on November 17, 2009, 01:51:40 PM
It's by that well-known artist, 'anonyme' according to Base Joconde.

LOL! I hear he was in alot of demand ha ;)
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: CountessKate on November 21, 2009, 04:02:55 PM
Quote
I have often thought that Élisabeth Charlotte looked like her mother, she was much more plain then her older half sisters Marie Louise (1662-1689) and Anne Marie (1669-1728).

Liselotte wrote to her half-sister the Raugravine Louisa, that her daughter's "features are not beautiful, but she has a nice expression, a pretty complexion, and a kind heart." 
Title: Re: Duke Philippe d'Orléans (brother of Louis XIV), and his family
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on June 22, 2010, 04:24:42 AM

page from one of Liselottes numerous letters to Amalie Elisabeth her halfsister "Amelisse". It is written in German which I think is so great and interesting because most people used to write French in those days...

(http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/ebind/docs/lise/lise048.jpg)