Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Prince_Xander on August 14, 2005, 01:31:19 AM

Title: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Prince_Xander on August 14, 2005, 01:31:19 AM
Okay i read in a book all about Alexandra DeGraffe, does anyone else know of whom i speak? i certainly hope so, because i would like more information on this fascinating woman......
                          ciao' ~ Xander
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Svetabel on August 14, 2005, 03:48:55 AM
Hi!

Who was she? Could you give a bit more info?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: bookworm857158367 on August 14, 2005, 09:42:54 AM
She's featured in a book about Anna Anderson "Anastasia: The Lost Princess" by James Blair Lovell. Her real name, as I recall, was actually Suzanna. She was a Dutch woman who claimed to be Alexandra, the fifth daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra, born at the time she had a false pregnancy in 1903. Anna Anderson acknowledged her as a sister and wrote letters to her and her children.

The whole thing was very much a hoax.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Svetabel on August 14, 2005, 09:51:18 AM
Really? Well, now I remember reading something like that. Surely, a great hoax!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Finelly on August 14, 2005, 01:04:44 PM
Lovell is, I think, the only person who goes into detail about this person.  And Lovell is, of course, suspect.  But he based the sections in his book on the tapes AA made with the Russian emigre (can't remember his name) so obviously, at the time there were stories going around.

AA and Alexandra met several times and there are photos of them together.

I'm wondering if Alexandra's descendants (she had several children ) have undergone dna testing or would be willing to.  That would likely clear up the issue.  

I personally do not believe for a second that Alexandra would give up a baby.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Annie on August 14, 2005, 07:11:20 PM
Quote
She's featured in a book about Anna Anderson "Anastasia: The Lost Princess" by James Blair Lovell. Her real name, as I recall, was actually Suzanna. She was a Dutch woman who claimed to be Alexandra, the fifth daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra, born at the time she had a false pregnancy in 1903. Anna Anderson acknowledged her as a sister and wrote letters to her and her children.

The whole thing was very much a hoax.

Yeah, they were 'sisters' all right, sisters in faking being Romanov daughters!;)

Didn't someone else pretend to yet another daughter born in Ekaterinburg (When Alexandra was 46 and no mention was made in her diary?)
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 06:30:54 PM

Meanwhile,  I'm curious about what the book has told about Alexandra.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 16, 2005, 09:21:53 PM
Dear Bear:

                      I couldn't send you the big pot of honey promised, so I would tell you a little about Suzana/Alexandra De Graaf. I read her story in James Blair Lovell book...and I laughed a big deal after I finished it.

                           Alexandra De Graaf was a Dutch woman who claimed to be the 5th. Nicholas and Alexandra's daughter. She always assured to be born in 1903, before Alexei, when the Tsaritsa had an hysterical pregnancy or a miscarriage . This Dutch woman said Alexandra didn't had any miscarriage: she was born, and when the doctors saw she was a girl, she was "robbed" by Philippe Vachot, for he has predicted that Tsaritsa's last baby would be a boy. She was given to a Dutch man and was raised in the Netherlands. She had some objects from Russia that she showed to everybody, and she claimed to have visited the Tsar and Olga Nicoleivna when they were travelling in Vienna. (But there is no record available to demostrate that the Tsar made this trip). Suzana De Graaf claimed to be the lost 5th daughter only in the 50's. She visited Anna Anderson at Unterlenghenhard, and she believed she was her sister. They wrote to each other for years.

Anna Anderson believed in her claim, but not all her supporters did. Dominique Auclčres, the lady who supported AA for years in her famous articles to "Le Figaro" (she was a very serious jounralist, very respected in France) wrote an article to said that this Dutch woman claim was a fraud. Perhaps AA needed someone who she could feel as her "family"...I mean a little affection.

Suzana De Graaf who was a chyromantic, died from a heart attack in November,25 of 1968. She was convertized to Catholicism .

 Blair Lovell travelled to the Netherlands to interview Suzana's family, and to know if they really believed her claims. Her relatives didn't know who Suzana really was, and seemed to have their serious doubts about it. Lovell who seemed to believe absolutely ALL that AA uttered to amuse herself and fool other people, saw in one of the Suzana De Graaf daughter's, Jeannette and was shoked for he found she was very similar in features to Alexandra Feodorovna. Blair Lovell's also includes a pic of Mrs. De Graaf, who, she believes, is very similar to Tatiana Nicolaievna. Yes...I can also see the ressemblance, but the pic is very blurred and she could have been anyone.(If you want, I may send it to you to post it here)

The story is too far fetched to believe in it. ..And Lovell devoted all the last part of her book to this claimant...He even travelled right to Doorn (she lived there) TO INTERVIEW MR.Van Weelden, Alexandra De Graaf's son. Poor Jimmy! After reading his "De Graaf Story" I felt sorry for him.  :'(

RealAnastasia.

P.S:The putative Mrs. De Graaf father's, was Leendert Johannes Hemmes, who was an "urine observer"  ::) , a kind of chyromantic skill that allow people to "read" what kind of diesease a person had, observing the urine of the patient. After in life, Suzana married a man nammed Anton Von Weelden, and after it, she divorced and married Jan Barend De Graaf.  



 
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: etonexile on August 16, 2005, 09:47:51 PM
Yes...it's DNA testing time again.....sheeesh...
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: xX_Mashka_Xx on August 23, 2005, 09:24:35 AM
Alexandra De Graffe story is ridiculous. I find it extremely hard to believe that Alexandra would give up a baby.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 23, 2005, 11:32:48 PM
I don't think this story could be a bit of truth in it. However, in history you NEVER would write the words "ridiculous" and "hard to believe". It could be that some years later you'll find the story it's 100% the truth. I don't believe that this one will be really true. But, be careful. History it's a very careful subject.  :(

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Halinka on June 18, 2008, 06:26:48 PM
Has anyone ever heard of this story? They are claims that instead of miscarriange Alexandra had given birth to a 5th daughter named Susan De Garrieff and gave away because the gender of the child. Anna anderson had met this women claiming her as her sister.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Michael HR on June 19, 2008, 03:08:35 AM
The thought of the empress giving away a child born to her and the Tsar is no doubt made up. why on earth woudl she do this, people would have known and people would have asked where the child had gone.

Any thing AA said canot be beleived.

The Tsarina may have been many things but an uncaring mother was not one of them
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: mansotogracia on June 19, 2008, 08:11:36 AM
Hello everybody!

Certainly, I must agree that this is one of the most ridiculous survivor stories I ever heard. Not only the Empress and Emperor were loving and caring parents that will never gave their child away, no matter how dissapointed because of its gender, but AA, in my opinion met anyone with the slightest interest in her story.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on June 19, 2008, 01:13:41 PM
Re: 5th Romanov Daughter:   Somewhere in my collection, I have a copy of James Blair Lovell's , "Anastasia, the Lost Princess."  He devotes a considerable section/s to this topic, including interviews/personal contacts with the son (especially) and, I believe, the daughter of this person.  All sorts of unheard-of minutiae are recounted, including a stack of "Court Roubles" (an allegedly specific paper ruble of which no one has ever heard). etc.  Of course, Blair Lovell is also, in this same book, the author of the infamous "recounting" of the "King Kong" episode allegedly told to him in the lobby of a Virginia movie theater by "Anna Anderson," which I have heard that near his death he basically admitted that it was not true.  Thus, all-in-all, his book is generally agreed to NOT be a serious/trustworthy source.  Bear this in mind if you consult it.   AP.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: imperial angel on June 19, 2008, 05:18:12 PM
To my knowledge, his is the only book that mentions it- and it is defintely inaccurate.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Zecharia on June 23, 2008, 12:12:57 AM
Has anyone ever herd of this story? They are claims that instead of miscarriange Alexander had given birth to a 5th daughter named Susan De Garrieff and gave away because the gender of the child. Anna anderson had met this women claiming her as her sister.
In which year was 5th daughter born?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Nikl on June 23, 2008, 12:25:49 AM
Has anyone ever herd of this story? They are claims that instead of miscarriange Alexander had given birth to a 5th daughter named Susan De Garrieff and gave away because the gender of the child. Anna anderson had met this women claiming her as her sister.
In which year was 5th daughter born?

De Graaff, who later called herself "Princess Alexandra," claimed that she had actually been born in 1903, the year that Tsarina Alexandra experienced either a "hysterical pregnancy" or a miscarriage. According to letters and diary entries by the family that were later published, Alexandra did not give birth to a child in 1903.[3] However, de Graaff claimed that because Nicholas and Alexandra already had four daughters and there was pressure upon them to produce a male heir to the throne, they decided to place their supposed fifth daughter with adoptive parents. Philippe Vachot, a doctor and "holy man" at the Imperial court from Lyon, France, supposedly arranged for the baby to go to Hemmes.[4] De Graaff's claims are seen as plausible by some because Vachot was supposedly hired by the Romanovs at a time when they were desperate for a male heir, pursuant to his claims to be able to influence the sex of children at an early stage of pregnancy. Accordingly, when the fifth girl, later to become de Graaff, was supposedly born on September 1, 1903, Vachot had motive to secret the child away and claim that the Tsarina had not in fact been pregnant. Her pregnancy had been previously reported in the European press.

In 1905, several months after the August 1904 birth of Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich of Russia, Vachot returned to France a rich man, having been generously compensated by the Romanovs.

De Graaff told the London Telegraph in October 1968 that Hemmes told her the truth about her origins in 1937. At that time she received her dowry from the Romanovs: five million rubles, a cloth belonging to the crown jewels, china and "trinkets." Hemmes supposedly told her that he had received "hush money" from the Romanovs to stay quiet about his daughter's true origins. An intriguing side note to the story is that Hemmes, who came from a poor family and was himself impoverished, was able in 1919 to build a luxurious home for his family in Rotterdam, which he later lost through incompetent business dealings. Moreover, Suzanna de Graaff left the paper rubles she claimed to have received as a dowry to her three children, one of whom, Anton van Weelden (de Graaff was married twice, producing van Weelden from the first marriage and twin daughters from the second), showed his portion to reporter James Lovell in 1989. Lovell reported in his book "Anastasia: The Lost Princess" (St. Martin's Press, 1991) that the pre-revolutionary rubles shown to him by van Weelden had apparently never been circulated; they were new, still crisp and in numerically sequential order.

Anderson told the London Telegraph that she accepted De Graaff as her sister. The two women first met in Germany in about 1950 and exchanged letters.[5] De Graaff's sister Adriana Hemmes rejected de Graaff's claim to be a fifth daughter of Nicholas and Alexandra as completely false and was estranged from de Graaff in their later years.[6] De Graaff died of a heart attack in November 1968.[7]

It should be noted that de Graaff never tried to capitalize on her claims, and in fact made them public only weeks before her death.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Zecharia on June 28, 2008, 07:13:29 AM
The thought of the empress giving away a child born to her and the Tsar is no doubt made up. why on earth would she do this, people would have known and people would have asked where the child had gone.

Any thing AA said cannot be believed.

The Tsarina may have been many things but an uncaring mother was not one of them
If this child was unwanted, it is possibility that would not be the czar child?
Sorry about my bad English :-[
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Michael HR on June 28, 2008, 07:40:12 AM
The Tsar and Tsarina were very caring parents and would not have given away a child under any circumstances IMHO. The lady in Holland just seems ot have made it up and I recall her Sister also said that she was a liar. It's one if those stories that we can just throw out

The thought of the empress giving away a child born to her and the Tsar is no doubt made up. why on earth would she do this, people would have known and people would have asked where the child had gone.

Any thing AA said cannot be believed.

The Tsarina may have been many things but an uncaring mother was not one of them
If this child was unwonted, it is possibility that would not be the czar child?
Sorry about my bad English :-[
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: StevenL on June 28, 2008, 08:31:14 AM
The Tsar and Tsarina were very caring parents and would not have given away a child under nay circumstances IMHO. The lady in Holland just seems to have made it up and I recall her Sister also said that she was a liar. It's one if those stories that we can just throw out


...I heard the "5th daughter" looked just like Anna Anderson -- if you can picture AA in wooden shoes, and a starched "traditional" Dutch costume,
holding a basket of fresh-cut tulips with a windmill in the background.

: o p


Steven : - )
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Annie on June 28, 2008, 09:15:02 AM


The 'fifth daughter' story is too ridiculous to even comment on. Of course it's a fake. There are two 'fifth daughter' stories, one where she allegedly gave away the baby during her 'false' pregnancy of 1902-03, the other where they allegedly had another child in Ekaterinburg and it was spirited away. If people are so creative why not make up their own original stories instead of using the poor Romanovs?!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 28, 2008, 01:42:36 PM
I do not recall a story about the Empress having a baby  in Ekaterinburg. Maria, maybe, but they are both ridiculous stories.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Annie on June 28, 2008, 09:41:26 PM
The Ekaterinburg baby story was posted here awhile back, I don't know which thread. It's so hard to find anything in these threads because they all end up the same anyway, always saying the same things about AA over and over.

Steven- LOL 'wooden shoe' wouldn't you
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Michael HR on June 29, 2008, 05:05:39 AM
Did anyone ever take it seriously?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Zecharia on June 29, 2008, 10:02:28 AM
Did anyone ever take it seriously?
I do not think so.  But now when they found rest of the Romanov family, maybe is time to search for more survivors. ;)
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 29, 2008, 10:18:28 AM
I think, perhaps, some of the AA fanatics might have, especially after the Blair-Lovell book came out. But even though that work has been dis-credited, some might still hang on- conspiracy, you know!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Annie on June 29, 2008, 10:23:43 AM
The Lovell book had a story about how AA met Degraffe and called her 'sister' or something like that. It only made them both look nuttier than they were!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Halinka on June 30, 2008, 08:51:24 PM
The Lovell book had a story about how AA met Degraffe and called her 'sister' or something like that. It only made them both look nuttier than they were!
It would been amusing to watch!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 30, 2008, 08:59:33 PM
Or- very sad. For all 3 of them [author included]
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Padawan Ryan on July 09, 2008, 10:44:01 AM
When I first read about it on Wikipedia (and yes I know that
Wikipedia isn't always correct) I decided to read up on some
More websites about it...I had a laugh, thinking, "Is anyone really gonna believe this?"

It's common knowledge that Alix loved her children regardless,
And it wouldn't matter if she had a fifth daughter before Alexei,
She would still love and nurture it as she did her other four daughters.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: RBorquez on July 10, 2008, 10:08:46 PM
The Lovell book had a story about how AA met Degraffe and called her 'sister' or something like that. It only made them both look nuttier than they were!
That's kind of similar to when the Polish Alexei claimant met Eugenia Smith.Suposedly they recognized each other, that's ridiculous.I never read that whole part of Lovell's book (the whole CdG chapter), it was kind of pointless.At least AA claimed to be a real person, even though she wasn't really Anastasia.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on August 05, 2008, 09:41:06 AM
I have Lovell's book because I picked it up at a "trash" sale at my local library for $1.  I haven't read it yet, but now I think I must!

Thanks to the very generous Phil Tomaselli - I have Blood Relative about another Alexei that I haven't gotten to yet either.  Time to begin reading about "imperial claimants"!!


So many books - so little time!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Michael HR on August 05, 2008, 09:48:58 AM
I have had the book for years but now forgotton the contents and will have to read it again but not until I have worked through all the other books that I have recently bought on the Romonov's.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Jebediha on October 01, 2008, 06:46:33 AM
Just a lie they only had 4 daugthers
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 09, 2008, 05:17:56 PM
Well, this IS the board for myths!


I have heard the 5th daughter story before. It's just that, of course. A story.

I've never heard the story of Maria having a baby at Ekaterinburg, though. It's chances of being true are about zero, but imagine the scandal if it indeed had happened.  :o
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: tom_romanov on October 10, 2008, 02:05:04 PM
lol if we imagine she was pregnant - Alexandra's face!! ;)
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 10, 2008, 02:18:18 PM
Somehow I think it wouldn´t be funny at all.....
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Gran Duquesa Anastasia on November 10, 2008, 04:58:28 AM
The story is very very stupid.
Nicolas and Alejandra were a good parents. They would not abandon one daughter.
The people already it does not know what to invent
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 25, 2009, 03:16:47 AM
This story can't be true. Alexandra would certainly not abandon a daughter, especially when she already had four...

P.S.: If someone has pics of Susanna De Graaff, do post them here. I couldn't find any, though.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 25, 2009, 04:56:22 AM
This story can't be true. Alexandra would certainly not abandon a daughter, especially when she already had four...


I'm agree with you.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: annya on January 26, 2009, 06:28:33 PM
The thought of a 5th Romanov daughter is plausible because Alex and Nicholas knew that because of the blood disorder Alexei would not live long enough or have the physical ability to rule, they needed a male heir. Even today it is shocking to some people when older women have babies, how more so in Alex day it would have been socially unacceptable, she had grown daughters. That is precisely why they would have kept it a secret, that she was even expecting, or that the baby was a girl, so they didn't announce it. Let's not forget even Alexei's illness was kept a secret for years after he was born, (see newspaper clipping this website) family, servants and those close to the family would have kept it a secret, it was a different time when loyalty meant more than it does today. I do not believe the woman in Nederlands is a Romanov, and I am not saying they gave the 5th daughter away. Just plausible justification for reasoning on a 5th daughter.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: gemellibru on January 30, 2009, 10:28:35 AM
I love seeing the pictures of the claimant? but I never thought that some of them were a true Romanov !!!!! In short: nicola, alexander, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia and Alexei, died at home Ipatiev! hours to say that Nicholas and Alexander had a daughter 5 is absurd! What do you think?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: nena on January 30, 2009, 10:44:46 AM
I don't know what to say, personally I don't believe in that story. But I have heard stories about 5th daughters, from 1902.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: gemellibru on January 30, 2009, 11:26:41 AM
say what you mean by "always say the same about Anna Anderson over and over"?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2009, 04:06:21 PM
Personally..I think this is one of the most absurd stories about the romanovs i ve ever heard. Sorry.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 30, 2009, 04:18:51 PM
My Russian teacher told me one version of the story. When Alexandra gave a birth in 1904, she had a daughter again and because they were so very disappointed they exchanged the baby during bathing for a boy. The girl was sent to Denmark and there she was raised for money sent from Russia....

Nonsense of course...
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Vecchiolarry on January 30, 2009, 04:27:11 PM
Hi,

I cannot see Nicholas and Alexandra giving up any children of theirs for whatever reason.  This is a ridiculous fantasy & derogatory gossip.  Hateful....
I am really no big fan of either Nicholas or Alexandra;  I find them interesting but not as much as other Romanovs.  But, Alexandra, for all her faults, was a devoted wife and mother and would never have abandoned a child of her own, let alone Nicky's.  And, Nicholas would certainly not have dumped an innocent child, especially his own.

Larry
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 30, 2009, 04:28:43 PM
My Russian teacher told me one version of the story. When Alexandra gacve a birht in 1904, she had a daughter again and because they were so very disappointed they exchanged the baby during bathing for a boy. The girl was sent to Denmark and there she was raised for money sent from Russia....

Nonesense of course...

My gosh, that was the most absurd story about the Romanovs I've ever heard. Alexei is not the son of Nicolas and Alexandra...  :o How can people tell stories like this... can't they just let the Romanov family to rest in peace?!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 06:05:49 PM
My Russian teacher told me one version of the story. When Alexandra gacve a birht in 1904, she had a daughter again and because they were so very disappointed they exchanged the baby during bathing for a boy. The girl was sent to Denmark and there she was raised for money sent from Russia....

Nonesense of course...

Probably new story for me, but as what others said, Alix could never forgive herself if she didn't take responsibility with a child.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2009, 06:32:39 PM
Well.-..as the most of you knows..i dont like at all Alicky , but i do know she was a good mother and incapable to do a thing like that *0*
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 06:58:07 PM
She's been a very strict mother to OTMA. ohow. Have you read the wikipedia article about Olga Nikolaevna? It says there that when the IF visited Romania, Queen Marie talked to the girls. They talk so carefree-lly but when Alix came, they became so careful of what to say. I think Alix wants her daughters to speak more like princesses (and it always will be like that, my opinion).
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on June 06, 2009, 09:21:03 AM
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k14/Livadia13/scan002.jpg)

from James Blair Lovell's book  Anastasia the Lost Princess
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Maria Romanova on June 06, 2009, 03:16:27 PM
According to me the history of Suzanna de Graff is is it the most absurd of all the histories of the claimants! Even the history of Eugenia Smith is more believable than the history of Suzanna! This is stuff from crazy person... 
But did Ann Anderson believe in the history of this woman?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on June 06, 2009, 08:13:24 PM
Yes, according to the Blair Lovell book Anna Anderson met this woman and called her sister.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 07, 2009, 12:30:25 AM
And we all know just how reliable the JB Lovell book is, don't we?
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 07, 2009, 08:24:04 AM
Hi,

Well, maybe she was Anna Anderson's sister;  but she wasn't Anastasia's!!!

Larry
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on June 07, 2009, 09:21:10 AM
Larry  - LOL

Wouldn't that be terrific!  If Suzanne was Anna sister, then we could get DNA from that branch and find out who AA really was!

A few posts before, posters were asking to see photos of Suzanne.  The one I posted above is the only one I have, I think.  I bought JB Lovell's book for $1 at my local library's "white elephant" sale, just to have it.

I haven't even read it and I think I got it about 2 years ago.

I also have Kurth's book and the Quest for Anastasia by Klier and his wife Mingay, just because they are a part of the story and I felt they needed to be in my collection.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Zecharia on June 20, 2009, 01:17:19 AM
I do not think that this claimant of fifth daughter sould be locked;) ???
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Tina Laroche on June 20, 2009, 01:49:28 AM
I do not think that this claimant of fifth daughter sould be locked;) ???

You mean that it could be real? ... ... And why is that? ??? As it has been said before, N&A would never give away a child of theirs, and with knowing how they loved their children, for me this story is locked. Although I'm not sure I understood you right...
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 20, 2009, 02:20:20 AM
It is just another story for fantasists and conspiracy  enthusiasts.  Still, it is still part of the Romanov legacy as a footnote for what it is. Not be taken seriously, but to display how far some will go in stretching their imagination. Much like those that claim to be  descendants of  Louis XVII, the "Lost Dauphin".  As long as people who read this take  the story for what it is-  a fictional story- so be it. Just file it in the rubbish heap of the other fictional claimants and theories.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on June 20, 2009, 08:07:28 AM
What he said -

And I don't intend to lock this thread.  Not yet anyway.  Nothing that has been posted here shows that this thread should be locked.

Discussion encouraged, but the caveat is this - it is fiction!

Just another fraudulent claimant.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Zecharia on June 20, 2009, 05:37:50 PM
Hi,

I cannot see Nicholas and Alexandra giving up any children of theirs for whatever reason.  This is a ridiculous fantasy & derogatory gossip.  Hateful....
I am really no big fan of either Nicholas or Alexandra;  I find them interesting but not as much as other Romanovs.  But, Alexandra, for all her faults, was a devoted wife and mother and would never have abandoned a child of her own, let alone Nicky's.  And, Nicholas would certainly not have dumped an innocent child, especially his own.

Larry
It is possible that Nicholas did not know that Tsarina is pregnant ???
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on June 20, 2009, 08:53:19 PM
Since this pregnancy was supposed to be in between the birth of Anastasia and Alexei, I doubt that Nicholas wouldn't know about it.

There would be no reason for Alix to hide any pregnancy from her husband as they were both awaiting a boy.  I think they would both be very excited to think that she was pregnant again and that the long awaited heir might be on the way.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on July 07, 2009, 04:38:00 PM
There is no way that the Tsar and Tsarina would give a child away and claim it was a false pregancy.  What a phony!
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on July 08, 2009, 09:08:23 AM
Anastasia was born in June 1901 and Alexei was born in August of 1904.

Since the other pregnancies were just about two years apart 1895 - 1897 - 1899 - 1901, I think that people who thought their might be a "fifth" daughter would put the date of her birth in between 1901 and 1904.

The supposed miscarriage during the coronation in 1896 would be very close to the birth of Olga in November of 1895.

The "false pregnancy" where an "ovule" dropped out was after Anastasia but before Alexei.  This is the "pregnancy" that the fifth daughter fiction is based on.  According to Anna Anderson this "false pregnancy" was not false but in 1903, Alexandra had yet another daughter who was taken from her and raised in the Netherlands.  This daughter was named Alexandra.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Teddy on July 15, 2009, 03:33:44 PM
Larry  - LOL

Wouldn't that be terrific!  If Suzanne was Anna sister, then we could get DNA from that branch and find out who AA really was!

A few posts before, posters were asking to see photos of Suzanne.  The one I posted above is the only one I have, I think.  I bought JB Lovell's book for $1 at my local library's "white elephant" sale, just to have it.

I haven't even read it and I think I got it about 2 years ago.

I also have Kurth's book and the Quest for Anastasia by Klier and his wife Mingay, just because they are a part of the story and I felt they needed to be in my collection.

The James Blair book, was my first Romanov book I got. For me it started my fascination for Anastasia. Later on, my fascination for the entire Romanov family grew.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on July 23, 2009, 09:30:17 PM
J.B. Lovell is a huge fraud.  My teacher made me read his book on Anna Anderson, and I will never forgive her or finish that book.  It makes sense if he's lying about Alexandra.  Nothing about her story makes sense.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 24, 2009, 11:46:44 AM
J B Lovell is dead  and cannot defend himself/ But as I understand it, before he died, he admitted that he made up those  bizarre stories to enhance his AA book-and sales. People who knew him far better than I had tried to dissuade him from  putting that stuff in. His book has a reputation now, but it is not one that I would want. In a way, it illustrates the fascination that some have for such odd conspiracy tales but on the other hand, it is very misleading in that younger, first time readers  receive a totally distorted and downright false view. That is the real pity. In my opinion, his work should be classified as fiction. It is not even a first-rate claimant story.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Anastasia Spalko on July 24, 2009, 08:55:46 PM
My point exactly.  If anyone else in my class had read that book, they'd think that Anna was Anastasia.  They probably wouldn't believe anyone if they were told Anna was a fraud.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Carisbrooke on August 23, 2011, 07:06:45 AM
   In Blair Lovell's story of a possible 5th daughter I don't see what he was doing wrong. Isn't all the below true ? anyone correct me if not.

1   Alexandra (Suzanna) De Graff did exist, she was well known in the local community & is buried in Doorn.

2   Apparently she did make a claim to be the Tsars 5th daughter to the Daily Telegaph in 1968.

3   As Blair Lovell's book states Miliukov did tape Anna Anderson & this is also confirmed in Greg & Pennys Resurrection of the Romanovs (page 242).

4   According to this tape, the 5th daughter claiment visited AA at Unterlengenhardt. A picture seems to confirm this as fact.

   As I see it all Blair Lovell did was to bring attention to the possibility of a 5th daughter, no matter how barmy that prospect may be. On this one issue as AA's official biographer, isn't he only guilty of doing his job ? Also you would think with material such as this, who needs to make anything up. The 5th daughter claim is ludirous yes, but my point is Blair Lovell did not fabricate it.

Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 23, 2011, 09:41:29 PM
I do not recall a story about the Empress having a baby  in Ekaterinburg. Maria, maybe, but they are both ridiculous stories.

Robert, can you please tell me what you meant by suggesting Maria might have been pregnant? Is there some sort of source that says that? I'd love to know.

Thank you.
Olga Bernice
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 23, 2011, 09:50:35 PM
To be honest, OB, I think I read the  basics of the story from FOTR,  debunked, of course. JBL gave all sorts of bizarre scenarios, which even he admitted were  false.
 So, to be honest, I do not have anything to back that speculation up,  other than that- possibilities, though not likely.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 23, 2011, 09:53:58 PM
Thanks for your really quick response, Robert. I wasn't trying to sound mean or anything ( :-[) but I just wanted to know if there was any definite proof (birth certificate, etc) of Maria having a baby while at Ekaterinburg. *Wipes sweat from brow* Good.

Thanks again,
Olga Bernice
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Kalafrana on August 24, 2011, 04:55:20 AM
Quite apart from any other consideration, the time factor would make it unlikely that Maria could have had a child while at Ekaterinburg. The Imperial Family moved from Tsarskoye Selo to Tobolsk in August 1917, and Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria moved on to Ekaterinburg in April 1918. The entire family were then murdered on the night of 16-17 July. On that basis, and assuming a normal-length pregnancy, Maria would have had to become attached to someone at Tobolsk and got pregnant some time between August and October 1917. The putative child would then have had to be born between the second half of April and the middle of July 1918 and 'arrangements' made.

Not absolutely impossible, timewise, but unlikely, given that Maria was certainly flirtatious, but, in my view, probably knew when to stop.

If this unlikely tale were true, it is yet more unlikely that the birth would have been registered - most likely the child would have been removed by the Bolsheviks and dumped, alive or dead.

Ann
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: Alixz on August 24, 2011, 09:36:32 AM
Ann - My thoughts exactly.  I was about to calculate the time line but you have done a beautiful job.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Fifth Daughter Claimant - Alexandra DeGraffe
Post by: TimM on November 28, 2018, 06:01:13 PM
Of course, we won't be seeing any more claimants now, it's been too long.  Even if any of the IF had survived, they would all be dead by now regardless.

Mind you, that won't stop people from claiming to be the children, or grandchildren, of a supposed survivor.