Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: etonexile on August 20, 2005, 11:38:38 AM

Title: Books on French Royals
Post by: etonexile on August 20, 2005, 11:38:38 AM
"The Diaries of the Duc de San Simone"
"The Lettres of Mme. de Sevigne'
"The Diaries of the Duchesse D'Orleans"

....many more...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Grand Duke on August 20, 2005, 04:48:43 PM

Full text of Memoirs of the Comtesse Du Barry (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2563)!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Grand Duke on August 22, 2005, 05:42:01 PM
"Death knows no secrets" (http://members.magnet.at/white-lily/) by Nicky Eltz.

Eltz offers his book from the year 2000 on the internet. It is about the legend of Louis XVII survived and the "theory of substitution" of Madame Royale by one half-sister!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: umigon on August 23, 2005, 12:04:49 PM
"Memoirs" by Marguerite de Valois, a.k.a Margot.


"Letters of Liselotte von der Pfalz"

"Catherine de Medicis" by Jean Orieux

" Las Reines de France au temps des Valois" (2 volumes) by Simone Bertière

"Las Reines de France au temps des Bourbons" (3 volumes) by Simone Bertière.


"Españolas, reinas de Francia" by Emilio Beladiez
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 23, 2005, 03:04:51 PM
'The Lost King of France' by Deborah Cadbury is wonderful and emotional book. I defy anyone to read it and not be a little upset by the end . . .  :'(
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Imperial.Opal on September 28, 2005, 07:03:23 AM
    Epithaf for Kings by S. Gormant, so sorry about the spelling is a excellent book I remember reading many years ago, I loaned the book to a mate who never returned it  :( It is about the french monarchy - the reigns of Louis XV  and  Louis XV1 and Revolution, and the scandals of the French court, I am still looking for another copy in Australia. Regards Steve
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Anastasia_R on September 30, 2005, 05:01:52 PM
At the moment I am reading a wonderful book called "Marie Antoinette:The Journey",by Antonia Fraser.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 30, 2005, 06:07:29 PM
I've read that too - superb!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: palatine on October 01, 2005, 11:31:57 AM
My recommendations:

Madame de Campan's memoirs are a must-read for anyone interested in Marie Antoinette.   Her book is not always easy to find, but it is well worth tracking down.   It has been published under different titles, I think.  My copy is titled "The Private Life of Marie Antoinette."

For the Empress Josephine, the Memoirs of Madame de Remusat are fascinating, as are the Memoirs of Madame Junot.  The novels of Marjorie Coryn, which are long out of print, unfortunately, are excellent.

If anyone wants to read about my favorite member of the French royal family, La Grande Mademoiselle, I would recommend her Memoirs, as well as Vita Sackville-West's biography, "Daughter of France."  

For information about the Affair of the Poisons during the reign of Louis XIV, Frances Mossiker's book is good.  I believe that Mossiker also wrote a book about the diamond necklace brouhaha that Marie Antoinette suffered through.    

If you are interested in the legend of the Ghosts of Versailles, Lucille Iremonger wrote a book about the incident.  Iremonger tends to dither about, but the book is still a good read.

Hope this helps....
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: felix on October 01, 2005, 02:46:32 PM
 

    "Memoirs" Madame De La Tour Du Pin

      "Empress Innocence" M.E. Ravage

        "Marie Antionette"  Philippe Huisman & Mme. M. Jallut

         "Eugenie & Napoleon III" David Duff
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bluetoria on October 02, 2005, 07:11:13 AM
"To the Scaffold" by Carolly Erikson...very light reading - okay but not nearly as good as Antonia Frazer!

"Napoleon & His Women" by Christopher Hibbert...really good!!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: felix on October 03, 2005, 04:22:32 PM
  
   Here are three that are interesting

    "The Memoirs Of Baroness Cecile De Courtot" Lady-In-Waiting  To The Princess de Lamballe,Princess of Savoy-Carignan.

   "The Dentist and the Empress,the Adventures of Dr.Tom Evans in Gas-Lit Paris" (He saved Eugenie and took her to England) by Gerald Carson

     "Last Letters Prisons & Prisoners Of The French Revolution" by Olivier Blanc, Marie Antionette's on down.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Grand Duke on October 20, 2005, 05:35:13 PM

Memoirs of Louis XIV (http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/3/8/7/3875/3875-h/3875-h.htm#2HCH0046) by The Duke of Saint-Simon.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LORENZO on December 29, 2005, 09:22:24 AM
Anyone could suggest me some title about Bourbon Dinasty? Thank you!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 29, 2005, 09:23:21 AM
BTW, has anyone read 'the Valois' by Robert J Knecht? It's a great read.  :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Kimberly on December 29, 2005, 03:47:39 PM
I've got it Liam. Excellent for "dipping into" but I have not yet read it cover to cover
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 31, 2005, 10:43:13 PM
Books on the Orleans' family ?  ???
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 01, 2006, 11:30:42 AM
nancy Mitford's "Madame du Pompadour" and "The Sun King" are excellent reads...well written/researched if a little sugary.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: pers on January 20, 2006, 07:48:41 AM
I got a 1910 copy of the Memoirs of Madame Campan about her life at the French Court during the reigns of Louis XV and Louis XVI.  Well, basically it is memoirs about Marie-Antoinette, as she was attached to her household ever since the arrival of Marie-Antoinette in France as Dauphine.
Over the years, I have read excerpts from her memoirs in several excellent books, but never could find it.  So now for the first time, I am reading the complete memoirs.  Really enjoying it.  I highly recommend it, whether in French or English!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on January 20, 2006, 09:03:25 AM
What a treasure! The entire book is now online, but I wish I had a 'hard copy.' There are a lot of details in there, many things that are not quoted anywhere!!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: coquelicot on January 20, 2006, 12:32:18 PM
It's easy to find it in french. I even recently found an illustrated edition called "Marie-Antoinette et son destin", full of beautiful pictures !

Surely it's possible to get an edition on line ?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Angie_H on August 17, 2006, 03:58:29 PM
Can someone recommend a good biography on Louis XV?
I tried to find one on Amazon but couldn't
Thanks!
Angie  :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 17, 2006, 05:20:43 PM
It's definitely a gap in the market, Angie H!

Faute de mieux, I think you might enjoy Nancy Mitford's biography of Madame de Pompadour. It includes the famously dry description of the Parc aux cerfs (where Louis kept his mistresses) as "a nice little  brothel".

Not scholarly, but well researched.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Imperial.Opal on August 18, 2006, 01:11:30 AM
   The Duchesse de Tourzel 1749 - 1832, was the royal chidren's governess, her daughter Pauline and the Princesse de Lamballe were close companions of Marie Antoinette.luckily for the Tourzels they were spirited out of the La Force in time during the September Massacres, where as the Princess de Lamballe was murdered. Any  reference material on the Tourzels would be appreciated  ;)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Angie_H on August 18, 2006, 06:44:42 AM
Bell,
  I have that book! That is why I was looking for a book on just Louis XV!
Angie
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Sissi on August 18, 2006, 07:37:03 AM
Dear Imperial Opal I recommend her Memoirs which are very interesting! Great Thread! Here is some information on the faithful Tourzel:


She was born Louise-Félicité-Joséphine de Croŷ d'Havré, Marquise (later duchesse) de Tourzel (1749 - 1832) She was the last governess to the royal children of Louis XVI of France and Marie Antoinette after Madame de pOlignac left the country.

Louise-Félicité married in 1766, at the age of seventeen, to the Marquis de Tourzel. They enjoyed a happy marriage for twenty years, she had six children. Her husband was killed in a hunting accident in 1786.

As you mentioned she was close to die during the september massacre. She was greatly shocked at the news of the death of Louis Charles, and during years she was accosted by various men pretending to be "Louis XVII of France".

here is a portrait of the old Duchess (she was made duchess by Louis XVIII)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Tourzel.jpg)



Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Sissi on August 18, 2006, 07:41:09 AM
This drawing is said to be Madame de Tourzel and the Dauphin!

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/tourzel2.jpg)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Ortino on August 18, 2006, 01:10:00 PM
I haven't seen a biography on Louis XV yet. He's one of those royals who has been given little attention, it seems, by scholars. As to why that is, I haven't a clue. It's the same problem with Alexander III. There are no biographies about him! There's one on his wife, but not on him. How incredibly sad and frustrating.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 18, 2006, 03:41:44 PM
Yes I agree. I find his reign utterly fascinating, and his relationships with his family from cradle to grave. What a story!

I guess we'll just have to wait....
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Imperial.Opal on August 19, 2006, 06:10:01 AM
  Hi, Sissi
 Thank you for the information on Madame Tourzel, her memoirs would be interesting to read,a eyewitness to history, from Louis XV, French Revolution,rise and fall of Napolen. :)  ;)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Angie_H on August 19, 2006, 04:57:04 PM
I wonder why there are books on Louis XIV and XVI but not XV. ???  I find him just as interesting. I loved the book on his mother "Princesse of Versailles". Now there is another "What If" story! What if the Duke & Duchess of Bourgogne had lived?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 22, 2006, 01:24:15 AM
I've been reading "Marie Antoinette" by Antonia Fraser. It's a darn good read, by the way!

She cites the following book:

Olivier Bernier: "Louis the Beloved: the Life of Louis XV" 1984

It may be out of print, but it can surely be ordered at a library.

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Angie_H on August 22, 2006, 07:12:49 AM
Thanks Bell! I'll have to look it up!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 22, 2006, 10:41:37 AM
You can get through Amazon: 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385184026/sr=1-1/qid=1156261202/ref=sr_1_1/104-2218855-2467163?ie=UTF8&s=books

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Yseult on August 25, 2006, 05:46:22 AM
I think that a threat dedicated to Jeanne Louise Henriette Genet, Mme Campan, is a "must". She was very close to Queen Marie Antoinette, from whom she was forcibly separated at the sacking of the Tuileries on the 10th of august 1792. Mme Campan managed so well, and she survived the dangers of the Terror. After the 9th Thermidor, she found herself penniless and with an ill husband to take care of, so she was strongwilled enough to establish a great school for young ladies at St Germain in Laye. The school of Mme Campan played a noteworthy role while the Consulate and the First Empire.

The two portraits that I have found of Mme Campan:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadameCampanbyJosephBoze.jpg)

[img][http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadameCampanwithapupil.jpg/img]
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 25, 2006, 12:59:36 PM
How did she manage not to get arrested and guillotined??!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Yseult on August 25, 2006, 03:58:32 PM
Frankly, Eddie...I don´t know! I´m very surprised. The Terror was an absolut nightmare, and I don´t understand how Mme Campan could pass through this rough, rough times...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: coquelicot on August 27, 2006, 02:28:49 PM
Madame Campan always was on the right side of politics... Furthermore, her souvenirs about Marie-Antoinette are highly suspect. For instance, she reports that Antonia was totally undressed while crossing the border. It's not true. Facts have been registered and we can see that Antonia simply changed her dress. Her narrative about the necklace affair must also be read very carefully, as well as her purpoted acts of bravery during the revolution. No doubt, this poor Henriette was nothing more than a chambermaid to the queen, and had no peculiar contatcs with her. She simply tried to emphatize on her closeness to Marie-Antoinette, exagerating her own importance. Let's add that, even while sincere, in many occasions, her memory is failing...

Sic transit gloria mundi...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: palatine on August 28, 2006, 11:55:01 AM
Madame Campan always was on the right side of politics... Furthermore, her souvenirs about Marie-Antoinette are highly suspect. For instance, she reports that Antonia was totally undressed while crossing the border. It's not true. Facts have been registered and we can see that Antonia simply changed her dress. Her narrative about the necklace affair must also be read very carefully, as well as her purpoted acts of bravery during the revolution. No doubt, this poor Henriette was nothing more than a chambermaid to the queen, and had no peculiar contatcs with her. She simply tried to emphatize on her closeness to Marie-Antoinette, exagerating her own importance. Let's add that, even while sincere, in many occasions, her memory is failing...

Sic transit gloria mundi...

Unlike the Vicar of Bray, Madame Campan was not always on the right side of politics.  For example, she did not go to the revolutionary government and share what she knew about the political machinations of the royal family, even though doing so might well have kept her and her family safe.  Campan was very lucky to survive the Terror.
 
After the Restoration of Louis XVIII, Campan discovered that she was in disgrace with the royal family and their court.  Her crime, if one can characterize it as such, was her decision to accept Napoleonic pupils into the school that she opened after the Terror ended.  This was not a political act: if she hadn’t accepted the rich Napoleonic pupils, she could not have afforded to keep her school open and she would have starved to death.  Another reason that the royal family disliked her was the fact that one of her nieces was married to Marshal Ney, who had promised Louis XVIII to bring Napoleon to Paris in a cage but had switched sides soon afterwards.  Ney’s volte-face was hardly Campan’s fault, but Louis XVIII would not or could not appreciate this.

It’s true that Campan made mistakes, almost always about things that she did not witness.  She also omitted, or skipped lightly over, some interesting things, such as the true nature of Axel von Fersen’s relationship with Marie Antoinette.  She also exaggerated some things, such as her efforts to help the royal family after the revolution began, but precisely how much she exaggerated is questionable.  It's certain that the royal family utilized trusted servants as agents and go-betweens during their final weeks at Versailles and while they lived in the Louvre.  Unfortunately, the activities of these agents are poorly documented at best, so precisely what Campan did and did not do for the royal family must remain uncertain.  Again, it's certain that she didn't sell them out.
 
Campan’s mistakes, omissions, and exaggerations can in part be explained by the fact that she wrote from memory, not from notes or a diary, and that she relied on gossip and hearsay to explain things that she didn’t witness.  They can also be explained if you examine the reasons why she wrote her Memoirs.  One reason was her wish to exonerate herself in the censorious eyes of the royal family by stressing her loyalty and past services.  Another reason was the fact that she’d genuinely liked Marie Antoinette and was appalled that so little had been done to rehabilitate her memory.  Her goal was to present Marie Antoinette as the antithesis of the monster that propaganda had made her out to be, and she succeeded.  On a final note, many distinguished historians consider Campan a credible source if their footnotes and bibliographies are anything to go by. 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: coquelicot on August 29, 2006, 06:51:38 AM
Quote
On a final note, many distinguished historians consider Campan a credible source if their footnotes and bibliographies are anything to go by. 


More and more serious historians look at her memoirs with increasing suspicion. Her role in the necklace affair, for instance, must be reconsidered, as well as during the revolution. It seems the queen did not confide in her as much as she pretends.

Quote
One reason was her wish to exonerate herself in the censorious eyes of the royal family by stressing her loyalty and past services. 


I agree with that. So, having an hidden agenda when writing, madame Campan must be read very carefully. Fortunately, many historians tend to rely on her book less than before, now.

Quote
She also omitted, or skipped lightly over, some interesting things, such as the true nature of Axel von Fersen’s relationship with Marie Antoinette.


What true nature ? In this case, on the contrary, I understand why madame Campan said nothing special... for there was no doubt nothing to say ! I am afraid this romance most of all exists in mangas fans' eyes !
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Grand Duke on August 29, 2006, 02:12:24 PM

Mme Campan with a pupil

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadameCampanwithapupil.jpg)


Portrait posted by Yseult, I just fixed the link.  ;)


 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: coquelicot on August 29, 2006, 02:32:15 PM
Thank you both ! I did not know this portrait. It's an interesting painting !
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Grand Duke on August 29, 2006, 03:31:26 PM

If you want to know the Works by Jeanne Louise Henriette Campan, see the:

Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/c#a1334)

Good reading!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Yseult on August 29, 2006, 06:14:12 PM
First: thanks a lot, Grand Duke, for fixing the link! ;)

Well, I have not a deep knowledge about Jeanne Genet Campan...I started the thread to learn more, because I think she had a complex and fascinating times! But I think that Mme. was dead aged seventy...and it´s said that she composed her Memoirs during the last years of her life...that´s true? I put the question because it´s not easy to writte about things that happened to you decades ago. If you have a lot of books fulfilled with notes, and mountains of letters that you once sended and you once received, it helps to clarify your mind. But If you have just your own memory...memory can be weak and treacherous, too! Made she mistakes? I´m sure. But the rare thing would be the opposite, from my point of wiew.

I suppose (I´m supposing, remember, because I never had read the Memoirs) that she tried to paint a good self-portrait, but I can understand it...

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: coquelicot on August 30, 2006, 04:50:00 AM
Of course, Yseult, you are right on every account. Madame Campan's memory may fail, as it happens for so many memorialists (Tourzel, for instance). Also, she had a hidden agenda, she tried to rehabilitate herself during the restauration. Well, so many memorialists have hidden agendas (Tilly or Saint-Priest, or purpoted Lauzun, for instance)...

At least, as Palatine said, Henriette gives us a sympathetic view on Marie-Antoinette (compare to Bombelle !)...

The problem, in my view, is that so many people relied too exclusively on her memoirs for searching about Marie-Antoinette. Campan and Mercy, they know nothing more than these ! Well, Campan's memoirs have the failures we discussed about, and Mercy lies a lot for political reasons !

So, in my view, the best way to reach Marie-Antoinette is to read her own correspondence and her answers on trial.

But we are not talking about Antoinette, here !  ;) Madame Campan's memoirs remain a good source for knowing more about French etiquette and court life. Her day to day descriptions are quite interesting, as well as her psychological analysis (about madame de Polignac, for instance). But I think we must read anecdotes and stories more carefully, especially while her own role is concerned. If you only rely on Henriette about the necklace affair, for example, you'll get it all wrong ! That's why serious historians as Hastier or Lever also used other sources.

Regards,
coquelicot
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Marc on September 01, 2006, 10:59:11 AM
Anyone have her portrait in colour?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Imperial.Opal on November 12, 2006, 01:46:09 AM
  My local bookseller has told me that Antonia Fraser has written a new book about the women in Louis XIV's life, published this year. has any one read it. ;)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Yseult on November 12, 2006, 04:40:05 AM
The book is Love and Louis XIV: The Women in the Life of the Sun King, by Antonia Fraser, pubished on october 2006 by Barnes&Noble.

I´m waiting a translation into spanish, because I really enjoy the Antonia Fraser´s bio and Louis XIV was linked to a good number of captivating women...the first of them, Marie Mancini, one of the Mazarinettes, his love of youth. Both Queen Anne of Austria and Cardinal Mazarin, oncle of the beautiful and amusing girl, forced a break up between Louis and Marie. She was strained from the monarch, banished from court to La Rochelle, first, and Brouage, later.

Marie Mancini´s portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/BeautifulMarieMancini.jpg)

Later, the king was married for dinastic and political reasons to Maria Teresa of Austria, infanta of Spain, a niece of his own mother. She was a good-hearted and compassionate woman, but also a graceless one, and she found herself always neglected by her husband and suffering a lot since she knew well he was unfaifhful.

Maria Teresa, the Queen. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MariaTeresaqueenofFrance.jpg)

He was involved in a serious flirtation with his sister-in-law, the ravissante Henriette-Anne of England, by marriage Duchess of Orleans:

Henriette-Anne, Duchess of Orleans. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/HenrietteAnne.jpg)

But the dangerous flirtation ended when Louis fell madly in love with the timid virgin Louise Françoise de La Baume Le Blanc, lady-in-wainting of Henriette-Anne. Louise became duchess of La Vallière and Vaujours. Louise was an innocent and religious-minded girl when she was attached to the king, she remained loyal to him during a few years, she borne him five children and, at the end, her deep regrest for being the mistress of a married man concluded when she entered a carmelite convent where she took the vows as Sister Louise of the Misericord.

Louise de la Vallière. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/LouisedeLaValliere.jpg)

Before the long-standing relationship with Louise was concluded, Louis took a new mistress for some months: the enchantress Catherine Charlotte de Gramont, princess of Monaco.

Catherine Charlotte de Gramont. Portrait.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/CatherineCharlottedeGramontPrincess.jpg)

Later, he began his relationshio with the magnetic Françoise Athenais de Rochechouart-Montemart, lady-in-waiting of poor queen Maria Teresa. Athenais became Marquise of Montespan. She was suspected to had recourse to black magic, with the purpose of retain the king´s favour, and, later, she was involved in the Affair of the Poissons.

Athenais de Montespan. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/AthenaisMontespan.jpg)

He was unfaifhful to Athenais with the very beautiful but not clever Angelique de Scoraille de Rousille, duchess of Fontanges. There was a lot of gossip when Angelique was dead aged twenty, because people believed she had been poisoned by order of Athenais:

Angelique de Fontanges. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/AngeliquedeFontanges.jpg)

After Athenais, appeared the puritanical governess of the king´s bastards: Françoise d´Aubigne, Madame Scarron, later Madame de Maintenon. She was not only the mistress of Louis, but very supportive to poor Maria Teresa: the queen openly declared she had never been so well threated before and she died in the arms of Françoise, who became the second morganatical wife of Louis.

Françoise de Maintenon. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/Maintenan.jpg)

It seems that, lastly, Louis gave his heart to his spirited grand-daughter-in-law, Adelaide of Savoy. Adelaide went to the french court when she was a lively creature aged twelve, and she became the pet of Louis, but, as she grew up, he was probably in love with her. He felt his heart broken into pieces when Adelaide died of measles only a few days after the death of  her husband, the Dauphin.

Adelaide of Savoy, the Dauphine. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/AdelaideofSavoydauphine.jpg)

Best regards! ;)

Add: Sorry, I forgot Anne of Rohan-Chabot, a girl who caught the eye of Louis when he was linked to Louise de La Vallière. It seems that Louis had a sexual relationship with her a few years later, when she was princess of Soubisse by marriage and the king had as his mistress Athenais de Montespan. I don´t know if the brief story with Anne was before or after the brief story with ill-fated Angelique de Fontanges ;)

Anne of Rohan-Chabot. Portrait

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/AnnedeRohan-Chabot.jpg)





Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 12, 2006, 08:05:49 AM
I just edited the post titles to correct them - it's Antonia not Antonio.  ;)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Kimberly on November 12, 2006, 11:37:17 AM
Thanks for the wonderful information and beautiful portraits Yseult. You have definately whetted my appetite for this book.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Yseult on November 12, 2006, 01:55:53 PM
You´re very kind, Kimberly. I was working from memory and searching for portraits while I was writting the post, so I forget a lot of very interesting stories.

Look at this:

1.-The Mazarinettes:

Louis had a romantical liaison with Marie Mancini, but it was said that he was equally involved with two of her sisters, Olympe and Hortense. In fact, some authors suggested that Olympe was the first who shared the bed with the king. Hortense, by the way, was not only a mistress of Louis, but also a mistress of Charles II of England. Portraits of the three scandalous Mazarinettes:

a) Marie (another portrait).

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MarieManciniII.gif)

b) Hortense.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/HortensiaMancini.jpg)

c) Olympe.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/OlympeMancini-1.jpg)

Olympe, later countess of Soissons, was involved in the famous Affair of the Poissons, the affair that ruined for ever the reputation of Athenais Madame de Montespan. And she was also grand-mother of the four sisters Mademoiselles de Nesle who where mistress of Louis XV.

2.-La Vallière...¿mother of the man in the iron mask?

Louise de La Vallière was, as I said, a virgin aged seventeen when she caught the eye of the king. She was poor but well born, modest and deeply religious. She held out against Louis´s sexual demands long enough to persuade herself that sleeping with the monarch was a holy duty. When her star declined, after a long-standing relationship, including the birth of several children, she joined a convent...and published a religious tract. An inusual mistress ;)

One of her children was Louis,the comte of Vermandois, granted with the precious tittle of Admiral of France when he was only two years old. It seems well documented that Vermandois died when he was aged sixteen: he was at this time on a military campaign, he suffered smallpox and he was dead. Howewer, in the 18th century some believed that Vermandois had been spireted away from the battle field to prison for the crime of stricking Louis´s legitimate son. So, there are people who supported the idea of Vermandois being the man in the iron mask.

More portraits of Louise de La Vallière:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/LouiseLaValliere.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/LouiseLaVallierewithchildren.jpg)

3.-Athenais

She had been named "The Sun King´s shadow queen" and also "the mistress of the devil". Unhappy in her marriage to a gamester nobleman, she was a tempestuous woman who used her beauty and wit to gain the king´s heart. She quickly became notorious for the her wondreous taste for fashion, the brilliance of her fêtes and the extravange of her gambling. But she also commisioned castles from the most noteworthy architects, she inspired plays wrotten by Molière or Racine and she patronized musicians as Lully.

At the end, after twelve years, the king began to lose interest in Athenais. She had gain weight and she bore him with her explosive fits. Added to this, a bizarre witch hunt which uncovered conspiracy in the highest echelons of nobility caused the downfall of Athenais. It is said that the concubine Athenais often used the ancient sorcery of mixing her menstrual blood with the food the king ate, to retain his love and passion, and that she celebrated black messes where she was not only the altar, but babies were sacrificed by decapiting them and later burning to mix their ashes with the elements. Louis quickly sent Athenais off to a convent, where she spent twenty seven years. She always was very frightened of loneliness, silence, the sleep of the others and darkness (in fact, every night she slept with several dozen candles lit all night long...).

a) Different portraits of Athenais:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/AthenaisMontespanII.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/Montespan.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadamedeMontespanwithchildren.jpg)

Best regards, Kimberly!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 20, 2006, 03:54:36 PM
I've been reading Colin Jones account of eighteenth century France, "The Great Nation", which covers the reign of Louis XV in some depth - it's very entertainingly written too! There seems to be a very good (scholarly) biography in French:

"Louis XV" by Michel Antoine (Paris 1989)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: palatine on November 20, 2006, 07:30:35 PM
You can find some good information about Louis XV in the Memoirs of Madame de Hausset, who was one of Madame de Pompadour's servants.  As I recall, Hausset more or less eavesdropped on Pompadour and Louis (at Pompadour's request) and took notes. 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 23, 2006, 04:32:05 PM
Thanks for that, Palatine!

I think one of the reasons that Louis XV has so few biographers is his own elusive personality. I think he kept even those closest to him guessing!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Suzanne on February 01, 2007, 06:38:04 PM
I just wanted to recommend this beautifully written work by Sena Jete Naslund, the critically acclaimed author of Ahab's wife. The novel is a fictional autobiography of MA told from her departure from Austria to her execution. The book is extremely well researched and provides convincing, three dimensional portraits of the Queen and the members of her circle. Much of the book centres around her correspondence with her mother Maria Theresa. The novel touches on numerous historical themes including the nature of queenship, the desacralization of the French monarchy, court life at Versailles and the Diamond Necklace Scandal. Very much recommended.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Elizaveta on February 24, 2007, 08:06:16 PM
I've read this book, and I also highly recommend this book. It's written beautifully, in a quite poetic language and full of original phrases. While I was reading this book, I found myself seeing the world through Marie Antoinette's eyes; I was so engrossed in this book that I literally forgot my own existence. Though this book is a historical fiction, it includes many historical facts and I find it to be in an unique genre, far from being a historical fiction story but not even close to an autobiographical book. After reading this book, I appreciated Marie Antoinette better, and I felt I understood her agony better.

The story began with Marie Antoinette's journey from Austria to France as a bride and ended with her cruel execution. Many historical figures from Marie Antoinette's time, Princesse de Lambelle, Duchesse de Polignac, Count Axel von Fersen, and the entire French Royal Family, are in the book. It also includes many of Marie Antoinette's recorded sayings.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robby on March 15, 2007, 06:16:00 PM
I'm interested, I really want to read this book, it sounds interesting. Marie Antoinette is one of my favorite royals. Thanks for the tip and information!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Teddy on April 22, 2007, 03:17:47 PM
Hello members,

Who can tell me what kind of book, "Isabelle, Comtesse De Paris - L'album De Ma Vie", by Cyrille Boulay is?
A coffee table?

Gr. Teddy
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Eurohistory on April 28, 2007, 07:36:58 AM
It is a lovely coffee table style book. The late Countess of Paris, who I last visited two months before her death, sent me a copy, dedicated and signed, in the mail...which greatly surprised me...she was fantastic, intriguing and an excellent conversationalist.

I will never forget her first words to me every time I visited: "Now Arturo, I will have a whisky on the rocks, what are you serving yorself!" – and with that I had my royal command to go and get her a libation!

I am still to publish her last interview with me in the ERHJ...maybe at some point this year.  Her funeral, to which I flew from San Francisco, was amazing as there were more than 150 royals attending.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: edtash on April 28, 2007, 11:10:44 AM
Mr Beeche was able to find me a copy of htis excellent book. I had to wait some time since the book is out of print, but he was successful in locating a copy in excellent condition and priced at an amount that did not completly break the bank. Highly recommended book as the photos are excellent and the late Countess did an amazing job.

Eddie Tash
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Lolita on June 13, 2007, 06:01:21 PM
There's a French edition somewhere

but I don't speak/read French

Can someone please help me?

if there isn't one out there,oh well,maybe the next few years an English edition will pop up
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: palatine on June 13, 2007, 10:11:45 PM
There's a French edition somewhere

but I don't speak/read French

Can someone please help me?

if there isn't one out there,oh well,maybe the next few years an English edition will pop up

Secrets of Marie Antoinette: A Collection of Letters by Oliver Bernier.  It's out of print, but copies are readily available on the used book sites.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 01, 2007, 09:06:02 AM
The other day I picked up a book published at the turn of last century (1903), titled "Memoirs of the Comtesse Du Barry, with intimate details of her entire career as favorite of Loouis XV. Written by herself, with special introduction by George Kendal Delahanty". The spine says "Memoirs and Secret Confessions of Madame Du Barry".

I am wondering if these are authentic memoirs of Du Barry... I wasn't aware she wrote any (was she even able to write?). They appear legit...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 01, 2007, 11:28:59 AM
Just checked Amazon, this book is available there (it was just reprinted last year it seems): http://www.amazon.com/Memoirs-Comtesse-intimate-details-favorite/dp/1406923133/ref=sr_1_2/002-6934782-2583239?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188663880&sr=1-2

Not much info, but you can search inside...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2007, 04:23:58 PM
I wonder when she would have written them, on the way to the guillotine?
 Having said that, I checked my own library- it did sound familiar- and found Memoirs of Madame du Barry. It is one volume of many in the [Secret] Memoirs of the Courts of Europe. I have 14 of the volumes in that series and there are more. In this case, however, the Memoirs" were written by H Noel Williams.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 04, 2007, 12:42:04 PM
Thanks, Robert. I kind of figured that this was one of those "fake" memoirs, but wasn't sure... My book has plates with photos from the play "Madame Du Barry" (late 19th century, NYC).
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 04, 2007, 01:35:18 PM
H. Noel Williams is actually a pretty good author. He wrote several decent biographies of the ladies  and otherwise of the French Court.   Rather than "memoirs" his Du Barry of the court memoirs series  is more properly, a biography I think. I do have a rather lavish volume of his that is just that- a boigraphy. Published in 1904.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 04, 2007, 01:37:36 PM
I think that the one I have is written from the first person perspective, so definitely meant to be memoirs not a biography... No other author is listed but "herself".
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on September 05, 2007, 06:56:56 AM
The one I found is by H. Noel Williams also. I tried to find an Author biography on him but couldn't so Robert if you think he writes pretty good Biographies I will read it.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Paola on November 15, 2007, 06:33:40 AM
Does anyone has any info about the new book by Dominique Paoli "Les Orléans en exil" ? I like much all her books so  I pre ordered it in Amazon.fr.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Greenowl on December 21, 2007, 06:29:48 AM
I read a few volumes of the Maurice Druon novel "Les rois maudits" many years ago and was fascinated by the character of Mahaut d' Artois. Duron presents Mahaut as responsible for poisoning Guillaume de Nogaret in 1314 and  Louis X (lLe Hutin) in June 1316. She later killed the new-born Jean I (son of Louis X and Clemence of Hungary), while presenting him to the barons in November 1316, in order to ensure that his uncle (her son-in-law, husband of her daughter Jeanne de Bourgogne) Philippe de Poitiers would become king instead, which duly came to pass. My question is: how much of this is based on fact or is it merely a legend or an invention of Maurice Duron? I have to admit that I don't know very much about Mr. Duron, but I assume he is/was a novelist as opposed to a historian?

Any information about the real Mahaut d' Artois would be most welcome!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on December 21, 2007, 03:26:22 PM
Mahaut of Artois (1268 – October 27, 1329, Paris), also known as Mathilda, was the daughter of Robert II, Count of Artois and Amicie de Courtenay.

She married Otto IV, Count of Burgundy, to whom she bore three children, including two girls who married kings of France, Blanche and Jeanne. Because of the premature death of her brother Philip in 1298, she inherited the County of Artois at her father's death in 1302, rather than her nephew Robert (her inheritance being based upon proximity of blood). Although he repeatedly challenged the decision, her rights to the County were consistently upheld. She was an able administrator and managed to defeat revolts of nobles. At her death, the county was inherited by her daughter Jeanne II, Countess Palatine of Burgundy (d 1330), who was married to Philip V of France.

She was portrayed by Jeanne Moreau in the 2005 French miniseries Les Rois Maudits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahaut,_Countess_of_Artois

http://les-rois-maudits.france2.fr/ site for the video






Also even more interesting:
in French

http://home.nordnet.fr/~pbyledbal/mahaut.html

in English more or less:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.mahaut-artois.org/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMahaut%2Bd%2527%2BArtois%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3Dad9%26pwst%3D1

Just a little note of interest in "Pariswalks"  this is mentioned:

The Caveau de la Huchette is a Club today but the building itself dates from the sixteenth century and was connected by secret passageways to the Petit Chatelet, then a prison at the Petit Pont. The Templars used the basement as a secret meeting place in the late thirteenth century. Their riches were so great that King Phillippe IV felt the need to suppress them in order to relieve them of their wealth. It was the curse the Templars laid on the King and his descendants that Maurice Druon took on in his series of historical novels Les Rois Maudits.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jzsrPcutUgQC&pg=PA46&dq=Les+Rois+maudits+by+Maurice+Druon&ei=gDFsR8yRBpjSigHP3eFp&sig=_QIzgXiz4nIPctzFptSF-sZCNSs#PPA46,M1
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Greenowl on December 21, 2007, 05:00:14 PM
Thank you ever so much for those splendid links and information. Mahaut seems to have been an extremely able and, by the standards of that era, a very generous person. It appears that the negative rumours about her were spread by her nephew, Robert d'Artois, but no court at that time ever ruled against her or upheld his claims. However, as the rumours (witchcraft and murder) are so much more dramatic than the sober reality, they naturally gained more attention and eventually overshadowed the true state of affairs.

Are there any books about Mahaut d'Artois other than Druon's "Les rois maudits"?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 23, 2007, 05:01:22 AM
Hi Greenowl!

I loved the books as well! I also loved the original French series which was televised in the early Seventies. Haven't seen the new film...

If I remember rightly, in the Druon version Mahaut didn't  succeed in murdering the infant Jean I - he had been substituted for the son of his wet nurse, and appears in later books as a grown up. It is the wet nurse's son who is poisoned by the countess at the christening when she puts her finger dipped in poison in her mouth! :)

A lot of events (like the above) are pure speculation. Druon also has Robert of Artois responsible for the poisoning of Mahaut and her daughter much later on. However it is well researched speculation, so it is an plausible embellishment of historical facts. Maurice Druon is, I believe, still alive and is the sometimes controversial head of the Academie Francaise. It's certainly likely that Mahaut would be keen to have her son in law on the throne, as this helped her shortly afterward in the second of the three court cases in which she successfully defended her claim to Artois.

Interestingly her claim to Artois (where a daughter has precedence over a deceased son's children) was quite the opposite of the male line succession which was behind Philippe V and Philippe VI's claims. It was ironically more like Edward III's female line claim to the throne of France, which was supported by Mahaut's nephew and enemy, Robert of Artois. As she was the only woman on the council of peers of the realm, representing both the County of Burgundy and Artois, she would have been pretty tough, I imagine.

It is probable that Nogaret died in 1313 (though dates in the fourteenth century are notoriously unreliable), which makes casts doubt on Druon's account in "The Iron King", where Nogaret is summoned by the Grand Templar at the stake to appear with the King and the Pope before the throne of God within a year.

We had good fun on the Tudor forum discussing the question of whether Queen Isabella was responsible for the downfall of her sisters in law (also in "The Iron King").

Which of the books did you like best?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Greenowl on December 23, 2007, 03:59:43 PM
Hi Bell the cat, thanks for all that information. It is a very long time (i.e about 30 years) since I read Les Rois maudits, so I really cannot remember the various volumes all that well. The only volume that I actually possess myself is, in the German translation, “Das Schicksal der Schwachen”, which literally translates as “The fate/destiny of the weak”, and starts with the departure of Clemence from Naples on 1st June 1315 to make the journey to France to marry Louis X and ends with the suspicion that the death of Louis X was due to poison and that as a result, Clemence should be guarded day and night in case an attempt is made on her life or that of her unborn child (which of course more or less amounts to the same thing). The two things that made a striking impression on me when reading the books in the original French all those years ago are (1) the character of Mahaut d’Artois and (2) when one of the kings died (was it perhaps Philippe IV le Bel ??) the courtiers were unable to close his eyes and Druon comments “so this king went to face his creator with his eyes wide open”….at 17 years old I found that very dramatic indeed. I would really like to read the complete work again, as it was very interesting. I am fascinated by medieval French history, but as yet not very knowledgeable about it

With regard to the speculation about Robert d’Artois poisoning Mahaut….what makes it seem a bit suspicious is that after Mahaut died, Robert fled to England, as he feared he would be held responsible for her death (or at least that is how I understood it), so it does rather look as if he had a guilty conscience. Mind you, by the standards of those days when life expectancy was very low, at 61 years of age Mahaut was quite an advanced age when she died. I think that very few survived much longer, Eleanor of Aquitaine being one notable exception.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 28, 2008, 09:03:12 AM
I just finished Nagel's Marie-Therese: Child of the Terror and liked it, although I did think that the author was defeated by a subject with such a private nature. There was just not enough information to glean an understanding of the marriage with the Duc d'Angouleme worked, although she was excellent when it came to explaining why Marie-Therese married her cousin.

Anyone else read it?

Simon
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on March 29, 2008, 03:45:33 AM
No, but I will put it on my list.....does it cover any of the "Memoirs on the Captivity  in the Temple by the Duchess of  Angoulême ?"  :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Louis_Charles on March 29, 2008, 04:17:32 PM
It doesn't quote much from it, but it does give an interesting history of the text, and I think the strongest part of the bio is the section (large) that deals with Marie-Therese's actual captivity.

I wish someone would tackle a biography of Madame Elisabeth.

Simon
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: imperial angel on April 09, 2008, 11:07:56 AM
I am reading this, it might take awhile, but I will let everyone know what I think. The earlier part of the book is interesting, but lots of stuff I already know, I don't know much about Marie- Therese's later life, so I hope to learn something. She was an enigmatic woman, certainly nothing like her glamorous and memorable mother, in later life anyway. Perhaps the French Revolution contributed to her later nature though, I am not yet far enough into the book to tell, and based on everything else I have read ( book after book on Marie Antoinette) find it hard to say.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 20, 2008, 06:14:30 PM
Hi, I'm new here-

I just finished this book. I was disappointed as I found several inaccuracies in the book. Some of her information just seemed too unbelievable and her sources did not adequately explain to me where she came up with her ideas. I found some truth weaved in with some untruth. I am glad that this is not my first reading of this subject because if it had been, I would have been somewhat misled.

This would probably be somewhat more informative:
"The Ruin of a Princess" as told by the Duchesse d'Angouleme, Madame Elizabeth (sister of King Louis XVI), and Clery (the King's Valet de Chambre)
Translated by Katherine Prescott Wormeley (1912) New York, Lamb Publishing Co.

Thank You
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: ivanushka on April 21, 2008, 01:00:55 PM
Is this book in French or is it in English?  It sounds interesting and I'd like to give it a try.

I've always felt great sympathy for Marie Therese.  It must have been a horrific experience, being in prison for years while watching your father, then your mother and then your aunt being taken away, tried and guillotined, constantly waiting for the same to happen to you while knowing that your little brother was being ill treated and not being able to do anything about it.  From the little I've read about her she appears to have inherited much of her mother's strength of character which probably helped her to survive that terrible time. 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 21, 2008, 03:23:27 PM
The writings were originally done in French - this book is translated to English. It might not be as easy as going to the store to get this book, I got mine from e-bay.
It is a copy from 1912. The horrors this poor child was forced to witness and suffer through is almost too much to bear. She was not quite eleven years old when the Royal family was forced from Versailles to Paris. Thus, a six year nightmare was to ensue. Cannot imagine what this would do to a young woman's psyche.

One thing that this book (Nagel's)  did touch on is the rumors of Marie Terese being raped by her jailers in the Temple prison. This is a subject that little to nothing is said about in almost everything I have read. Madame Elizabeth told Marie Terese (when they were separated) to ask for a woman to placed with her.  (This was denied her.) She also told Marie Terese to be sure to never let her captors find her in bed or undressed.  Marie Terese herself wrote about how they would come into her room whenever they pleased, day or night. She also says they were sometimes drunk. As far as the subject of rape concerning these women, Marie Terese, Madame Elizabeth and Marie Antoinette -does it not seem more than likely that all three of them were probably raped?  They were made to suffer so terribly by such cruel, cruel men whose aim seemed to be to constantly humiliate them. The Princess Lamballe was supposedly gang raped by thugs! before they murdered her.  It seems to me that in view of all the sexual nonsense about them that was being circulated by those terrible gossip rags of the day - rape surely must have occured. What better way for those men to humiliate those poor women.  It is not surprising that this subject is not mentioned very often - who of those men would admit it? If anyone knows of any information regarding this subject, please pass it along - I know that it is very unsettling, BUT, I like to know the whole truth.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: ivanushka on April 21, 2008, 04:36:46 PM
Firstly, thanks for the info on the book.  I will certainly try e-bay.

Secondly, welcome to the forum!

Thirdly, I had no idea of the rumours that Marie Therese had been raped.  What an appalling thought.  The only thing that makes me think that she wasn't is that even though France had become a republic, she was still of royal blood and the guards would have grown up being taught to venerate the Crown.  Even though much of the respect would have gone with the revolution, there would still have been some sort of mystique attached to royalty which may have protected Marie Therese (and her mother and aunt).  I hope so as the alternative really is too distressing to think about.

In the little I've read about Marie Therese as a grown woman, the writers have suggested that the suffering she endured during those six years had a permanent effect on her character, turning her into the rather remote and severe woman I understand she became.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 21, 2008, 07:40:51 PM
And Thank you for the welcome! E-bay has been a good source for me to find some good books and the prices are usually great - go for the used books that are in good condition. I have not had a bad experience yet. Also try online book reading too - You might even find this translation of The Ruin of a Princess online.

I wish that I could have faith in human beings that this (rape) could not have possibly happened, but I do not. The brutality displayed in ordinary circumstances toward ordinary people was so vicious that I have to wonder about how carried away things got towards the hated targets  - the Royal family - and all they stood for. The revolutionaries desecrated the Royal tombs at St. Denis. I read that anyone who was halfway decently dressed was chased in the street by mobs and beaten to death. I also read that women and young girls were quite often raped before they were execututed. (?) .  But like I said before, these references are few and sporatic.  I read another account of the King's execution where it was said that after Louis' head was cut off, one of the gaurds on the scaffold picked his head up, showed it to the crowd, then proceded to do the most lewd and disgusting gestures with the head. I can only imagine what they were talking about. I am always shocked at the barbarity humans dispaled toward each other.

Also, just an observation- I was in Paris 6 months ago and went looking in the Place de la Concorde for something marking this as the place where the gulliotine was set up -
or something to commemorate the deaths of the King and Queen - it was odd that there was nothing. I wonder why?
 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: ashdean on April 22, 2008, 02:17:13 AM
The writings were originally done in French - this book is translated to English. It might not be as easy as going to the store to get this book, I got mine from e-bay.
It is a copy from 1912. The horrors this poor child was forced to witness and suffer through is almost too much to bear. She was not quite eleven years old when the Royal family was forced from Versailles to Paris. Thus, a six year nightmare was to ensue. Cannot imagine what this would do to a young woman's psyche.

One thing that this book (Nagel's)  did touch on is the rumors of Marie Terese being raped by her jailers in the Temple prison. This is a subject that little to nothing is said about in almost everything I have read. Madame Elizabeth told Marie Terese (when they were separated) to ask for a woman to placed with her.  (This was denied her.) She also told Marie Terese to be sure to never let her captors find her in bed or undressed.  Marie Terese herself wrote about how they would come into her room whenever they pleased, day or night. She also says they were sometimes drunk. As far as the subject of rape concerning these women, Marie Terese, Madame Elizabeth and Marie Antoinette -does it not seem more than likely that all three of them were probably raped?  They were made to suffer so terribly by such cruel, cruel men whose aim seemed to be to constantly humiliate them. The Princess Lamballe was supposedly gang raped by thugs! before they murdered her.  It seems to me that in view of all the sexual nonsense about them that was being circulated by those terrible gossip rags of the day - rape surely must have occured. What better way for those men to humiliate those poor women.  It is not surprising that this subject is not mentioned very often - who of those men would admit it? If anyone knows of any information regarding this subject, please pass it along - I know that it is very unsettling, BUT, I like to know the whole truth.
Personally I do not think there was any rape.The powers that be who spared her life...knew better than allow this prize hostage to be harmed in anyway... her captors might have got away with lewd gestures but they were no doubt under very strict instructions that she was not to be physically harmed....IF she had been raped her cousin the Emperor would have not wanted her to marry his brother and her uncle LouisXVIII would have  sent her off to some convent..perhaps the one in Prague where surplus Hapsburg Princesses  ended up....
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on April 22, 2008, 04:04:03 AM
Thank you so much for mentioning the Book "The Ruin of A Princess." I found it on line and it is really good. I still have half of it left to go but it is very telling. I doubt though if it is going to discuss rape ...I have heard that about the Princess Lamballe but that was after She had been condemned to death and is under the thread by her name. I think the Poster mentioned reading it in the Archives in Paris.







http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/wormeley/princess/princess.html#1
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 22, 2008, 02:28:04 PM
The Ruin of a Princess does not mention anything about rape, but Nagel's book does - Nagel also talks about the rape of the Princess Lamballe. Only because I have seen mention of this in different books and articles do I think that it is a real possibility that these women were abused.  Also because of all the sexual slander against Marie Antoinette in the pamphlets that were circulated everywhere.  And mostly just because the nature of men tells me that it is more likely than not.  Much as we hate to admit it in the light of day, women are brutalized in the commission of war and fighting all the time , it is ugly, but true.  The Royal family were not prized prisoners and were constantly threatened. Harm was the ultimate goal, resulting in murder for everyone except Marie Terese. I think that this (subject of rape) is something that they would want hushed up, just exactly the way the treatment of little Louis was hushed up. The jailers at the Temple prison knew exactly what happened to this child, because they caused it to happen to him. Yet there were only unsubstantiated rumors about his real fate - when the jailers knew for sure he was dead - due to what they had done to him. I think that they were too ashamed to admit to the treatment they had administered to him.  What people will do together as a group is a lot of time not at all what they would engage in solo.  This is the concept of "mob mentality" - And mob mentality was rampant!  Anyone who gets a chance should read "The Lost King of France" by Deborah Cadbury. It gives an excellent account of the poor little boy King who was also murdered. Can you imagine being involved in treating a little boy this way?  When the people responsible were alone and realized just what they had been involved in, I wonder how they dealt with thenselves?  A little boy, born in March of 1785 - he was less than 5 years old when forced to Paris by a mob of hateful bloodthirsty people. Look at any 5 year old boy of today or any other time - can you imagine such a thing?  I am French, and I love France, but this whole episode is a horrible stain upon France.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: ivanushka on April 22, 2008, 05:09:34 PM
You're absolutely right about poor Louis XVII.  His fate was the most appalling one suffered by any royal I've ever read about.  I seem to remember reading that at one point during his captivity he was kept in a room with no light for six months with no human contact except for when someone pushed food through to him via a small door/grate.  The only royal whose existence was even worse I think was Ivan VI of Russia who, having been deposed as a toddler, grew up in solitary confinement before being murdered at the age of 23.

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on April 23, 2008, 04:20:18 AM
l
Quote
so, just an observation- I was in Paris 6 months ago and went looking in the Place de la Concorde for something marking this as the place where the gulliotine was set up -or something to commemorate the deaths of the King and Queen - it was odd that there was nothing. I wonder why?
Quote


I would also like to see something there to commemorate the deaths! They died under horrible circumstances and very bravely too....Marie Antoinette was known for her grace and even in death She gracefully ascended the steps to her death. And then of course the way they treated the corpses was barbaric.
I think her head was thrown between her legs.  But for some reason until I read the book you recommended I had not thought about the bodies being stripped of their very clothes. That the clothes belonged to the State. Naturally I have read every Memoir I could get my hands on...by the way I had a Scholar recommend to me the book "Blood Sisters" which I am also reading. You have read the Memoirs of Madame Campan have you not and Madame de  Tourzel?
And if anyone finds this new book to have any new information I would be interested to hear it. 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 23, 2008, 03:06:03 PM
Please tell me about the "Blood Sisters" book.  Who is it about?  Who wrote it?  I am always interested in new sources of information!

Just want to say that this is great to be able to learn from you all - Thanks!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Silja on April 24, 2008, 03:46:05 PM
Please tell me about the "Blood Sisters" book.  Who is it about?  Who wrote it?  I am always interested in new sources of information!

Just want to say that this is great to be able to learn from you all - Thanks!

Marilyn Yalom, Blood Sisters. The French Revolution in Women's Memory, 1993. Very valuable book, which quotes from women's French Revolutionary memoirs. Among them are the memories of the Duchesse de Tourzel, Rosalie Larmoliere, Madame Roland, Charlotte Robespierre, Madame de Stael.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on April 25, 2008, 04:14:41 PM
Thank You!  I just ordered this book online for $!.99 - any other good books that can be recommended are always appreciated.  I have read tons, but there is so much out there.  I am sure that this will be a good read, I'll post a new topic when I have finished it - so let's talk about it!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on April 26, 2008, 03:28:54 AM
Good idea...just getting back to this thread. Sorry that I didn't include the Author;s name with the post.  :) 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: imperial angel on June 11, 2008, 04:31:22 PM
I have been done with this book for awhile, so sorry so late. It is interesting and I did learn a few new things. The author spends the book focusing on Marie Therese and it does cover her life, even though it may not answer things like why the marriage with her cousin worked. But, I got the impression it was like many royal marriages founded on dynastic reasons, likely more like a very close friendship than a real romance- the marriage  did work of course, perhaps surprisngly, and likely it was based on their family and shared background and that become more, as they did truly love each other.It is a bit distracting that the author spends the book focusing on not on on the real Marie Therese, but also on rumors that have little foundation that Marie Therese might have been someone else other than the Marie Therese in front of Europe who really, no one questioned. But the author gives you the idea for some of the book that the story of an obscure noblewoman in Germany could have been the real Marie Therese, etc, or at least constantly focusing on that saga is a bit distracting.Still, at least a biography of Marie Therese was published, it was about time.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 26, 2008, 08:25:53 PM
Hi, I'm new here-

I just finished this book. I was disappointed as I found several inaccuracies in the book. Some of her information just seemed too unbelievable and her sources did not adequately explain to me where she came up with her ideas. I found some truth weaved in with some untruth. I am glad that this is not my first reading of this subject because if it had been, I would have been somewhat misled.

This would probably be somewhat more informative:
"The Ruin of a Princess" as told by the Duchesse d'Angouleme, Madame Elizabeth (sister of King Louis XVI), and Clery (the King's Valet de Chambre)
Translated by Katherine Prescott Wormeley (1912) New York, Lamb Publishing Co.

Thank You

I agree,i noticed the inaccuracies as well and am very disappointed! she made very stupid mistakes, madame du barry was stated to be 2 years older than Marie Antoinette. Madame Du Barry was born in 1743 and Marie Antoinette was born 1755. You do the math. as a historian i would think she'd know better. Also she says that duchesse de polianc and king louis xvi had an affair as it was a mere fact when it was just a rumor and no proof of their affair exists.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 26, 2008, 10:21:37 PM
i have just read 20 pages and found a few inaccuracies  the author first says that king louis xvi had an affair with duchesse de polianac. everybody knows there is no proof of this. then she says madame du barry is only 2 years older than marie antoinette. i read madame du barry's biography and marie antoinette's and i goggled and there is more than 2 years more like 13 years! thats a huge mistake!!  THEN she goes on says that the kings brothers, comte de Provence and comte d'Artois 's wives were very ugly but i looked at there photos and are FAR from ugly.

here are the photos of the wives, judge for yourself http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/LuiseMariaGuiseppavonSavoyen.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/MarieTheresedeSavoie.jpg

how could this book be published? i'm only on page 20. and find too many faults. this is so disappointing.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Norbert on August 27, 2008, 05:24:52 AM
Gossip at the time suggested that the Duchess was the Queen's lover . I have never read that the King had any lovers ....except his Queen
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on August 28, 2008, 01:36:32 AM
Actually the Wives of the Comte de Provence and the Comte d' Artois were described as ugly. Although I agree with you the images are not! Perhaps the paintings flattered them. That would not be unusual. 

Click the link and this will take you to a description of both Women.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HSAs8nAOyJIC&pg=PA20&dq=Marie+Josephe+de+Savoie+1771&ei=MEW2SJnKDIGCywSU8p31Bg&sig=ACfU3U2Qm6M6WabSgD-BD3jTp95KK6-poA#PPA20,M1
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on August 28, 2008, 01:59:32 AM
While looking for further examples of personality or looks of the Sister-in-laws of Louis XVI I came across a very amusing exchange of words between the Countess de Provence  and her Sister- in- law Marie Antoinette! It appears She could be very untactful!

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz8No1fkV58C&pg=PA188&dq=countess+de+provence&ei=WEK2SKLzG5LkywT-0KmsCQ#PPA188,M1
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on August 29, 2008, 04:08:34 AM
Another description of the Comtesse de Provence:
The Comtesse de Provence was admired for her intelligence and wit (qualities she shared with her bookish husband), but she was no beauty, and Vigée Le Brun must have employed considerable genius to render her sitter with the grace and physical charm evident in the portrait while still making it recognizable as Marie Josephine. Short and dark, with a dusky complexion, long face, large nose, and bushy eyebrows, the Comtesse de Provence was, as Madame du Barry bluntly remarked, "ugly and she smelled." Her reluctance to wash, wear perfume or have her eyebrows plucked was regarded with such concern that two years into her marriage , her father, the King of Sardinia, wrote to her imploring that she try to please her husband and pay attention to her toilette (26 February 1773). Her lack of hygiene, in addition to her inability to bear children, finally drove Provence to abandon the marriage bed; by 1781 he was openly living at the Petit Luxembourg Palace, and her relationship with her husband sank - in the words of Philip Mansel, Louis XVIII's most recent biographer - to a level of "fairly amiable mutual endurance."
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: imperial angel on August 29, 2008, 04:45:39 PM
What I found most surprising in this book ( like the first poster) is that it says Louis XVI had a mistress, and it talks about his illegitimate daughter (supposedly). Has this ever been put in any other book? I'd read alot, and never came across it.From what I know, it was just a romour. The author shouldn't talk about like it is fact. We don't even know if he ever had a mistress, much less a illegitimate daughter. He wouldn't seem to be the type. It has Been a few months since I read the book, and I don't have it in front of me, but was the Duchesse de Polignac mentioned in the book as being the mother is his supposed illegitimate daughter or was that somebody else? Either way, I don't think it was true. Gorgeusbutterfly, wgat did you think about (if you have read that far) how the author talks about the mysterious woman in Germany who rumor had it could have been the real Marie Therese, after she left France for Austria ( before she got married)? The author gives a lot of credit to rumor.But, the wives of Louis XVI's brothers WERE said to be ugly, repulsive etc.Every book says that.Potraits likely flattered them.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on August 29, 2008, 11:39:07 PM
what is the exact Title and Author for this book Please?

I'd like to see what the reviews say and also what category this Book is in. Are there any Sources listed of Primary Documents? Particularly for the Louis Story of an illegitimate Child? I'd like to look at them if there are. :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 30, 2008, 12:07:00 AM
What I found most surprising in this book ( like the first poster) is that it says Louis XVI had a mistress, and it talks about his illegitimate daughter (supposedly). Has this ever been put in any other book? I'd read alot, and never came across it.From what I know, it was just a romour. The author shouldn't talk about like it is fact. We don't even know if he ever had a mistress, much less a illegitimate daughter. He wouldn't seem to be the type. It has Been a few months since I read the book, and I don't have it in front of me, but was the Duchesse de Polignac mentioned in the book as being the mother is his supposed illegitimate daughter or was that somebody else? Either way, I don't think it was true. Gorgeusbutterfly, wgat did you think about (if you have read that far) how the author talks about the mysterious woman in Germany who rumor had it could have been the real Marie Therese, after she left France for Austria ( before she got married)? The author gives a lot of credit to rumor.But, the wives of Louis XVI's brothers WERE said to be ugly, repulsive etc.Every book says that.Potraits likely flattered them.

i have read in other books that the king did like poliganac a lot. and that he was her favorite of his wives friends. i also read that they met together but never have i read that she was his mistress.  i think whatever child he had that was illegatmate was not poliganac's from what i remember reading in the book.   and as far as the woman who was supposably switched with marie therese, well i haven't gotten there yet. i will let you know when i finish the book :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 30, 2008, 12:09:54 AM
what is the exact Title and Author for this book Please?

I'd like to see what the reviews say and also what category this Book is in. Are there any Sources listed of Primary Documents? Particularly for the Louis Story of an illegitimate Child? I'd like to look at them if there are. :)

marie therese:child of terror. the fate of marie antoinette's daughter by susan nagel.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 30, 2008, 12:12:13 AM
there are a lot of sources written in the end of the book but who knows which sources she used to make these conclusions?  maybe we can write to her. i have been thinking about that for a while. i want to ask her why she didn't do enough research on madame du barry when she is clearly much older than marie antoinette. yet she says she is only 2 years older! its a mistake and she should know about it.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on August 30, 2008, 12:43:58 AM
is this in the Book? what I am interested in is the last statement!

Quote
As the only child of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette to survive the French Revolution, Marie-Thérèse-Charlotte de Bourbon occupied an extraordinary place in history. Surprisingly, not much has been written about her; she is dismissed by her mother’s many biographers as, variously, “unbearably haughty,” “sulky,” “ill-tempered” and even (from the mordant Stefan Zweig) “mentally inert.” This was a girl who, upon being asked how she would feel if Marie Antoinette were to die, replied, “I would be very glad because I could do as I pleased.
Quote

I was sort of hoping She had referred to her sources when She made her comments. But in her other book titled Mistress of the Elgin Marbles I note that in the Acknowledgement Section Nagel refers to the Family letting her have Mary's Diary and pictures.  as  below

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=9UG2THvlxpkC&dq=susan+Nagel+biographyl&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=8S_MDMMseG&sig=8u2uHfuQXN7E1RnioFqMtOpUYno&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR10,M1

Quote
In chronicling her subject’s rarefied, peripatetic existence, mostly spent in exile in foreign kingdoms, Nagel dismisses distasteful rumors — that Marie-Thérèse had been poisoned and raped in prison; that she kept a lover after her marriage. One wishes Nagel had done the same with the long-held conspiracy theory that on leaving France, Marie-Thérèse switched places with a half sister and lived out her life in seclusion in Germany. Although Nagel seems to discount the idea of “the Dark Countess” in her preface, and, using handwriting samples, forcefully discredits it in her afterword, she intersperses the book with melodramatic passages about this mysterious figure. Because we never believe the story might be true, Marie-Thérèse’s doppelgänger functions less as a red herring than as a dead one.
Quote


Review from the New York Times the above quote came from:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/books/review/Steiker-t.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/N/Napoleon%20I

Susan Nagel is the author of a critically acclaimed book on the novels of Jean Giraudoux. She has written for the stage, the screen, scholarly journals, the Gannett newspaper chain, and Town & Country. A professor in the humanities department of Marymount Manhattan College, she lives in New York City.

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on September 04, 2008, 07:03:51 PM
i bought the book the portrait of an average woman by stepfen zweigh. very good book i read a few pages.  and highly recommended to me by others as a must read but there are no references or sources in the back of the book. how do i know where he gets the information?  so he is a trustworthy source himself why?

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on September 04, 2008, 11:49:26 PM
I have not read the Book however Amazon states that the Book contains three citations:
This book cites 3 books:

    * Marie Antoinette by Conrad Bishop on page 5
    * Wisdom And Destiny by Maurice Maeterlinck on page 217
    * Captain Cook by Grove D. Day on page 415
 Is this true? I will let someone else that has read the Book comment further but I don't see any primary sources. The book also gives I believe a firm impression that Marie Antoinette had an affair with Count Fersen. We had quite a discussion on this and a French Historian put forth quite some interesting views. It is under the Maire Antoinette thread.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on September 05, 2008, 04:34:18 AM
i bought the book the portrait of an average woman by stepfen zweigh. very good book i read a few pages.  and highly recommended to me by others as a must read but there are no references or sources in the back of the book. how do i know where he gets the information?  so he is a trustworthy source himself why?

I have that book and enjoyed it.  IMHO, the author is Viennese and so I trust that he has an 'Austrian' view on Marie Antoinette, in context of their country's history, the Habsburg monarchy, etc. I especially liked reading the letters of Maria Theresia to MA on that book; they are very insightful. 

One thing though: I think the author was  a bit  harsh on Maria Antoinette and her sisters, while tending to paint Maria Theresia as all-good or one who did not do anything wrong and that the daughters were simply unruly.  For example, the author did not make allowances for MA's youth/neglected childhood nor the circumstances of her sisters but just criticized them for their mistakes and levity.

There are many books online on Marie-Antoinette you can get for free.  The one by the Princesse de Lamballe is  also a good read.

Hope this helps a bit....
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on September 05, 2008, 06:27:41 AM
i bought the book the portrait of an average woman by stepfen zweigh. very good book i read a few pages.  and highly recommended to me by others as a must read but there are no references or sources in the back of the book. how do i know where he gets the information?  so he is a trustworthy source himself why?

I have that book and enjoyed it.  IMHO, the author is Viennese and so I trust that he has an 'Austrian' view on Marie Antoinette, in context of their country's history, the Habsburg monarchy, etc. I especially liked reading the letters of Maria Theresia to MA on that book; they are very insightful. 

One thing though: I think the author was  a bit  harsh on Maria Antoinette and her sisters, while tending to paint Maria Theresia as all-good or one who did not do anything wrong and that the daughters were simply unruly.  For example, the author did not make allowances for MA's youth/neglected childhood nor the circumstances of her sisters but just criticized them for their mistakes and levity.

There are many books online on Marie-Antoinette you can get for free.  The one by the Princesse de Lamballe is  also a good read.

Hope this helps a bit....

i noticed that as well. he was judgemental and harsh yet it was very ingrossing to read. like gossip. lol

where is this lamballe book you speak of?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: imperial angel on September 05, 2008, 08:08:45 PM
I read this book- it is true there are no sources, but I like the way he writes. It is one of my favorite biographies of MA, albeit he is overly critical of her- still, great book, very readable!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on September 05, 2008, 10:08:52 PM
Memoirs of the Princess Lamballe      on line click link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hktOo-Ub_G0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=Princess+Lamballe&ei=i_LBSJjuCpW0yQSO9_SPDg
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Elisabeth on September 07, 2008, 08:37:22 AM
i bought the book the portrait of an average woman by stepfen zweigh. very good book i read a few pages.  and highly recommended to me by others as a must read but there are no references or sources in the back of the book. how do i know where he gets the information?  so he is a trustworthy source himself why?

Dear Gorgeousbutterfly,

Stefan Zweig is a very famous Austrian (Viennese) writer, whose biography of Marie Antoinette is renowned for its high literary value and intuitive psychological insights, if not always for its factual details (writing back in the early decades of the twentieth century, he had much less access to primary sources than most 21st-century historians do - also, he was not a professional historian and never claimed to be - he was first and foremost a novelist). On the whole, IMHO, Zweig's biography is a fairly accurate description of the life of the tragic French queen. But whether it's factually accurate or not, I truly do think it is a "must read" for anyone curious about the life of Marie Antoinette, since it has influenced entire generations of her biographers, up to the present day.

I also have to admit that generally I found Zweig's treatment of MA to be very sympathetic - especially his account of her last days, trial, and execution. But I also thought his insight that she was ultimately "a very ordinary woman" is, if debatable, also highly interesting, because it could be argued that until the French Revolution threw her entire world on its head, MA was indeed very ordinary in her tastes and inclinations - she just had better taste than most women. I had this sensation most strongly when I first visited the Petit Trianon - the house struck me as the most feminine place I had ever been in, perfect and beautiful and, indeed, perfectly and beautifully feminine - in short, the dream house of Everywoman should she have the financial resources and architects and interior designers to realize her dream of a fantasy home.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Machina XII on September 23, 2008, 05:59:49 PM
I read about half of the MA biography by Antonia Fraiser. I thought it would be good because the movie was based off it, but it was pretty boring for the most part. There were so many long titiled names I got confused as to who was who(but I suppose that was to be expected, and probably can't be helped). I'd like to try another one written by an author that doesn't bore me quite so much. The one by Princesse Lamballe looks interesting. I read another one of those free onilne books about Louis XVII that I think was written in the 1820's if I remember right. I really like the way it was written. The Author was strongly against the revolution and supported the royal family whole-heartedly, unlike some of the newer books that are in favor of the revolution.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: LillyO on October 04, 2008, 10:26:16 AM
I think that the accusations against the Queen and her friends (being lovers) was nothing more than gossip & vicious lies. There was nothing then or now to substantiate this nonsense. Stupid, sick minds make these things up. No more believable than the Queen sexually abusing her son.  Sexual charges are very hard for people to refute - unless they are so ridiculous, as the one's against Marie Antoinette are!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Norbert on October 09, 2008, 04:15:20 AM
Very true...even the revolutionaries knew they had pushed their lies too far when they made their wicked accusations and The Queen appealed to the mothers in the crowd
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Machina XII on November 21, 2008, 11:55:53 PM
Even though I know that any of Louis XVII's claimants are very unlikely to have any truth in there stories, I have read that Karl Wilheim Naundorff, the Baron de Richemont (Ethelbert Louis Hector Alfred) and others have written memoirs about themselves in the case that they were ever recognized...Just out of curiosity I really want to find these books. I'm curious about how ridiculously far fetched their stories actually get, or how convincing. If you know where I might be able to find copies of these books, or even a good place to look for them, please let me know. Your comments are much appreciated.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on November 23, 2008, 03:10:45 AM
I think this will be interesting to you ( below part II) covers the most important of the claimants! The last two links concern the tracking of the DNA however some odd things came out while these Scientists prepared to do that. In asking for Collectors to bring them artifacts they could use one Collector brought in a handkerchief stained with blood which he stated had been dipped in Marie Antoinette's blood during the guillotining of the Queen!

The Story of Louis XVII. of France
 By Elizabeth Edson Gibson Evans Part II "The Pretenders"

http://books.google.com/books?id=CqwfAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA104&dq=Karl+Wilhelm+Naundorff,&lr=&ei=vRQpSZ-NMY3kywTl49D8Dw#PPA93,M1

Interesting also: Hunting the double Helix: How DNA is...by Anna Meyer
http://books.google.com/books?id=CBxhrHjECoUC&pg=PA188&dq=Karl+Wilhelm+Naundorff,&lr=&ei=vRQpSZ-NMY3kywTl49D8Dw#PPA189,M1


 The  The  Lost King of France which contains  a lot more of the genetic tracking of the DNA sequencing proving  Karl Wilheim Naundorff was an imposter and the use of Marie Antoinette's hair and those of her Sisters.... Http://books.google.com/books?id=sLRWafFmngkC&pg=PA246&dq=Karl+Wilhelm+Naundorff,&lr=&ei=vRQpSZ-NMY3kywTl49D8Dw#PPA272,M1
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: stepan on November 25, 2008, 06:53:43 PM
If you know German there is an interesting novel based on facts about Naundorff:  Was die Weltgeschichte verschweigt by Robert Widl. I´ve read it and really liked it. The author seems to have made a lot of research on Naundorff and his adventurous life.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Machina XII on December 02, 2008, 09:52:24 PM
Thanks for all your help! Mari, that first one does look interesting. I have already read the lost king of France, that is how I knew the books about the claimants existed. Sadly, digging through the bibliography didn't get me any closer to getting a hold of the books. I did, however find a few books in french that were kind of close to what I wanted, but my french reading ability is questionable. I probably read at a second grade level, if that. I only know a handful of German words that I've learned from friends so the book stepan suggested is beyond my abilities. I have yet another reason to learn German! :) I was amazed to find that Naudorff's descendants have their own website (in french) www.louis-xvii.com ! I really wish I could read German now!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on December 02, 2008, 10:39:17 PM
Use a translator like Babel Fish to translate and if you read French on a second grade level it will be simple to understand! It will translate whole pages and websites. So, you are only interested in the one Naundorff? Is that correct? The first link I gave mentions the different ones who claimed to be Louis XVII!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: ivanushka on December 09, 2008, 11:51:44 AM
I think that the accusations against the Queen and her friends (being lovers) was nothing more than gossip & vicious lies. There was nothing then or now to substantiate this nonsense. Stupid, sick minds make these things up. No more believable than the Queen sexually abusing her son.  Sexual charges are very hard for people to refute - unless they are so ridiculous, as the one's against Marie Antoinette are!

I agree.  From what I know of the period, there was a trend for women to enjoy extremely close, sentimental friendships with each other and gossiping courtiers and political agitators used this to suggest that there was a physical aspect to these relationships.

I think the reason Marie Antoinette was so partial to these sort of friendships was because she was trying to recreate the relationships she'd enjoyed with her family back in Vienna.  It seems that the family member she was closest to was her sister Caroline, and her two closest friends in France (the Princesse de Lamballe and the Duchesse de Polignac) were both a few years older than her, just as Caroline was.

As for the accusation of incest, that was just disgraceful and by appealing to all mothers at her trial Marie Antoinette showed it up for the ridiculous slander that it was.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Machina XII on January 02, 2009, 05:50:40 AM
I'm really interested in all of them. Naundorff just stood out to me because everyone said he could describe his life in Versailles in "chilling detail" so I wanted to know all the specifics. I remember reading that someone said (as in a trick question) that he wore a small blue suit that she showed him to Paris and he corrected her, saying that he only wore it at Versailles ( i wonder if this is the same blue suit that Louis XVII wore in his most famous portrait?)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on January 09, 2009, 02:16:50 AM
On Naundorff what did you think of all the scars and hair description and eye color etc described in the first link I gave you which I repeat...  this just takes you into a different page and the page behind it is interesting also!

http://books.google.com/books?id=CqwfAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA105&dq=Karl+Wilhelm+Naundorff,&lr=#PRA1-PA112,M1

from The Story of Louis XVII of France by Elizabeth Edson Gibson Evans, John Boyd Thacher Collection (Library of Congress)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Imperial.Opal on January 09, 2009, 04:03:08 PM
 Hi Machina X11

 On the subject of Louis XV11 claimants, there is a thread -  Louis XV11 - did he die in the Tower posted last year,
 there is more information there on this topic.
 Regards
 I. Opal

Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: heavensent on October 23, 2010, 01:21:03 PM




 Mme Campan


(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3973/mmecampan.jpg) (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/mmecampan.jpg/)


  Jeanne  Campan, born   1752, Paris  Died  1822,  ) was a French educator and lady-in-waiting to Queen Marie Antoinette before and during the French Revolution.
Her father, whose name was Genest, was first clerk in the foreign office, and, although without fortune, placed her high  in the most cultivated society.


 At the age of fifteen  Jeanne  could speak English and Italian, and had gained so high a reputation for her accomplishments  that she was  appointed reader to the three daughters of Louis XV.
At court she was a general favorite, and when she married  M. Campan, son of the secretary of the royal cabinet, the king gave her an annuity of 5000 livres as dowry.

 She was soon afterwards appointed first lady of the bedchamber by Marie Antoinette and she continued to be her faithful attendant until she was forcibly separated from her at the storming of the Tuileries on 10 August 1792.

Perhaps no one knew the life of  Marie Antoinette more intimately than Jeanne Campan,
she was there at her mistress side through all the  happy times at Versailles and
Queen Marie's private palace... the Petit Trianon.
     She was there too during the  times of  adversity as the  French Revolution began to dominate and threaten their lives and the Royal Family were confined within
the gloomy rooms of the Tuleries Palace  in the heart of  Paris.
All of which serves to make her book....  "Mémoires sur la vie privée de Marie Antoinette," such a
valuable  historical document.
 

Madame Campan survived the dangers of the Terror, but  found  herself almost penniless  and thrown on her own resources by the illness of her husband.
She bravely determined to support herself by establishing a school at St Germain.
The institution prospered, and was patronized by Hortense de Beauharnais, whose influence lead to the appointment of Madame Campan as superintendent of the academy founded by Napoleon at Écouen for the education of the daughters and sisters of members of the Legion of Honor.

This post she held until it was abolished at the restoration of the Bourbons, when she retired to Mantes, where she spent the rest of her life amid the kind attentions of affectionate friends, but saddened by the loss of her only son, and by the calumnies circulated on account of her connexion with the Bonapartes.

She died in 1822, leaving valuable "Mémoires sur la vie privée de Marie Antoinette,"  . The most noteworthy thing in her educational system, and that which especially recommended it to Napoleon, was the place given to domestic economy in the education of girls.
At Écouen the pupils underwent a complete training in all branches of housework.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: heavensent on October 23, 2010, 03:18:25 PM
 

The first time I saw her Majesty after the unfortunate catastrophe of the 
Varennes journey, I found her getting out of bed; her features were not
very much altered; but after the first kind words she uttered to me she
took off her cap and desired me to observe the effect which grief had
produced upon her hair.
It had become, in one single night, as white as
that of a woman of seventy  !

 Her Majesty showed me a ring she had just had
mounted for the Princesse de Lamballe; it contained a lock of her whitened
hair, with the inscription, "Blanched by sorrow."
 At the period of the
acceptance of the constitution the Princess wished to return to France.
The Queen, who had no expectation that tranquillity would be restored,
opposed this; but the attachment of Madame de Lamballe to the royal family
impelled her to come and seek death.

When I returned to Paris most of the harsh precautions were abandoned; the
doors were not kept open; greater respect was paid to the sovereign; it
was known that the constitution soon to be completed would be accepted,
and a better order of things was hoped for.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: heavensent on October 23, 2010, 07:10:50 PM
 get the full  memoirs in bite sized chunks
go here
http://hotfile.com/dl/77925770/18341d3/MME_CAMPAN_MEMOIRS.zip.html (http://hotfile.com/dl/77925770/18341d3/MME_CAMPAN_MEMOIRS.zip.html)

then go get natural readers....  cut and paste those chunks
in.. then sit back... give your eyes a rest... and listen to Mme Campan

get  Natural  Reader
the  free version
go  here
http://www.naturalreaders.com/



.

 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 24, 2010, 05:46:26 AM
I have read other Memoirs by Members of the Court but I personally like and find these Memoirs to be necessary reading. Historians still value these! Like anyone trusting from their own opinions and memory there may be a mistake or two but it would be that way if a current Journal were published two hundred years from now. Thank you for bringing these to the attention of those that have not read them.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on October 30, 2010, 04:12:45 PM
Have Mme. Campan's memiors been translated and published in English? They sound very interesting, I'd love to read them!
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: heavensent on October 30, 2010, 04:37:47 PM
THE MEMOIRS  in  bite  sized bits
http://hotfile.com/dl/77925770/18341d3/MME_CAMPAN_MEMOIRS.zip.html

get  Natural  Reader
the  free version
go  here
http://www.naturalreaders.com/

cut and paste text in and let it read
it back to you.
Relax and give your eyes a rest !
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on October 30, 2010, 04:43:43 PM
No, I meant in a book.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: CountessKate on November 01, 2010, 10:37:46 AM
The english translation of 'Memoirs of the Court of Marie Antoinette, Queen of France' by Madame de Campan was produced in 1900 and various recent editions are currently available from Amazon, e.g. the Dodo press edition, and there's a Nabu press edition; you can also get secondhand editions via Abebooks, for example, reasonably cheaply both in the UK or the US. 
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on November 01, 2010, 02:48:23 PM
Thank you!  :)
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: alastair on February 08, 2011, 03:57:30 PM
Anyone know any good books on the French aristocracy. Including things like debutantes, social season , ettiquette etc . All the ones I can find seem only ever find are only in French X
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 08, 2011, 04:24:04 PM
The French court did not have "debutantes" balls.  Individual  girls were normally presented by a family member, already in the Court to show that she was available for  marriage or to be open for a position in service as a noble lady.
 Likewise, there were no "seasons" as such. The court moved with the king, wherever he went.  Entertainments were constant, at Versailles especially. Naturally religious fetes and royal weddings were  great reasons for a grand party.
 Court etiquette was formalized  and structured under Louis XIV and kept the same pretty much  under even the Bonaparte monarchies [who, BTW, may have been the ones to introduce "debuts at Court, a'langlaise]
 There are many sources, in English of the Court and it's rules. -  Versailles and the Trianons, by Nolhac, Versailles and the Court under Louis XIV by  Farmer. And  many court memoirs, like Montespan, Campan, etc. I have a set of 20 volumes on just that- memoirs of the French Courts, both Bourbon and Bonaparte. The complete set may be hard and costly to find, but the individual volumes do come up on book searches. [all in English translations]
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: alastair on February 08, 2011, 04:25:42 PM
I don't mean the court I mean the aristocracy and high society. 1900 to 1939 or about then
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 08, 2011, 06:13:35 PM
The tread is about  French Royalty, so fair assumption on my part.
 However, if the era you are after, the perhaps Beauty in Exile; The artists, models and Nobility who fled the revolution and  influenced the world of fashion [Paris] Lots stuff on the  "society of that period. Author is  Vassiliev.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Suzanne on April 05, 2012, 11:36:52 PM
I found this book fascinating. It restores Joan of Arc's patron, Queen Yolande of Sicily, Countess of Provence and Duchess of Anjou to her rightful place in French history.

http://www.royalhistorian.com/the-medieval-book-reviews-1-the-maid-and-the-queen-the-secret-history-of-joan-of-arc-by-nancy-goldstone/
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Suzanne on April 11, 2012, 10:19:14 PM
There is an interesting new book out about Marie and Hortense Mancini. Their lives intersected with many of the royal families of the seventeenth century

http://www.royalhistorian.com/the-kings-mistresses-by-elizabeth-c-goldsmith-book-review/
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Suzanne on April 13, 2012, 01:20:31 PM
Here are my favourites:

http://www.royalhistorian.com/royal-historical-fiction-roundup-2-the-french-court-in-the-18th-and-19th-centuries/
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 13, 2012, 03:54:18 PM
The first book you cite is not very good at research, apparently. Josephine was not Napoleon's wife at the time of his overthrow. Marie Louise was. I hope that was not the point of the book.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Превед on September 13, 2013, 07:19:43 PM
Anyone know any good books on the French aristocracy. Including things like debutantes, social season , ettiquette etc . All the ones I can find seem only ever find are only in French X

Well, I suggest you follow the example of the debutantes, for whom acquiering a smattering of French was de rigueur. Without, one is quite perdu!

À propos de perdu.... Proust is always a good, if random source of us et coutumes of Parisian high society during the Belle-Époque. Just consider what he has to say about the U and non-U pronunciation of the Bourbons' Austrian exile:

S'il n'y avait aucune affectation, aucune volonté de fabriquer un langage à soi, alors cette façon de prononcer était un vrai musée d'histoire de France par la conversation. « Mon grand-oncle Fitt-jam » n'avait rien qui étonnât, car on sait que les Fitz-James proclament volontiers qu'ils sont de grands seigneurs français, et ne veulent pas qu'on prononce leur nom à l'anglaise. Il faut, du reste, admirer la touchante docilité des gens qui avaient cru jusque-là devoir s'appliquer à prononcer grammaticalement certains noms et qui, brusquement, après avoir entendu la duchesse de Guermantes les dire autrement, s'appliquaient à la prononciation qu'ils n'avaient pu supposer. Ainsi, la duchesse ayant eu un arrière-grand-père auprès du comte de Chambord, pour taquiner son mari d'être devenu Orléaniste, aimait à proclamer : « Nous les vieux de Frochedorf ». Le visiteur qui avait cru bien faire en disant jusque-là « Frohsdorf » tournait casaque au plus court et disait sans cesse « Frochedorf ». (From Proust, Marcel. A la recherche du temps perdu. V : La Prisonnière.)

Methinks the U pronunciation is Austrian dialect, à la frohesch Fescht for frohes Fest?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 22, 2013, 07:08:44 PM
I have some books:
The Wars of Louis XIV 1667-1714 John Lynn
Giant of the Grand Siecle John Lynn (John Lynn writes about Louis XIVs military and is great at it)
The Affair of the Poisons Francis Mossiker murder and scandal at Louis XIVs court
The Queens Necklace Francis Mossiker on the affair of the diamond necklace
The War of the Austrian Succession 1740 -1748 Reed Browning
The Nine Years war and the british army 1688-1697 John Child
The Kings Honor and the kings cardinal The War of the Polish Succession john L Sutton
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 23, 2013, 08:14:39 PM
There is a site versallies3d.com for who want to know what Versallies looked like over the years
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2013, 06:08:09 PM
Sounds interesting. I would pick Louis XIV era since the rooms are not in that style anymore or buildings like the Trianon de Porcelain.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Marie Valerie on October 31, 2014, 02:54:45 PM
Are there any photos of Sophie of Alencons children Louise & Emmanuel in "Mon Album de famille" ?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2014, 12:11:07 AM
Should have...
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 21, 2015, 05:43:36 PM
not a book but a movie on Versailles "A Little Chaos" is in the works
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on January 03, 2016, 07:01:57 PM
Another book:
"The French Musketeer 1622-1775" Rene Chartrand
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: José on January 22, 2016, 10:48:00 AM
Last year the french celebrated the 300th of Louis XIV's death.

Those jubilees many times are associated with the publications of works on the subject.

Were there any new books oh him and his time?
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: AnitaSymn on June 19, 2016, 03:48:59 AM
Веб сайт  СВБ клуб. Вы всегда сможете просмотреть  телефоны компаний досуга  таких как Кафе, а также автомобильной тематики, бизнеса, магазинов, медицинских клиник, медицинских услуг и тд.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: AnitaSymn on June 21, 2016, 05:11:21 PM
Журнал  СВБ клуб. Вы всегда сможете просмотреть  На карте предприятий досуга  таких как Бары, а также автомобильной тематики, бизнеса, магазинов, медицинских клиник, медицинских услуг и тд.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on July 14, 2016, 06:06:30 PM
Not a book but there is a movie or miniseries in the works called Versailles I think will be out next year.
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on January 30, 2017, 06:20:07 PM
Not a book but a miniseries La Revolution Francaise on youtube with English subtitles has actress Jane Seymour playing Marie Antoinette.
For something lighter historyteachers on youtube has music videos on The French revolution and Marie Antoinette and others. There is also the movie Danton on youtube
Title: Re: Books on French Royals
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on September 19, 2017, 06:58:33 PM
The 2006 movie Marie Antoinette is on youtube along with specials The Rise and Fall of Versailles