Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Sarai on February 15, 2004, 03:36:36 PM

Title: OTMA - smoking, make up and clothes
Post by: Sarai on February 15, 2004, 03:36:36 PM
I recall reading that the Grand Duchesses all smoked, and were taught to do so by their father himself. I have also seen pictures of them with cigarrettes in hand and apparently smoking. Yet a caption next to a photograph showing Anastasia apparently smoking in the book "Nicholas and Alexandra: The Family Albums" (pg. 218) reads: "Anastasia is smoking - is she simply trying to imitate her father or has she inherited this vice from him? This seems unthinkable, particularly since the parasol means that the Empress is present, and she would never have allowed her daughters to smoke."

Despite this assertion on the part of the author, I tend to believe that they did in fact engage in smoking due to having read and seen more information supporting that fact. Which leads me to the question - WHY were they allowed to smoke? What did people of the time think about this habit with regards to ladies doing it? I suppose that at the time the great health hazards of smoking were unknown, so it was probably acceptable in general as a pleasurable and relaxing vice. However, did they not at least think that it was un-lady like and improper? I imagine that a proper Victorian lady like Alexandra would indeed have been disapproving of her daughters taking up such a habit, and yet apparently it was done. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on February 15, 2004, 04:22:02 PM
From what I understand, all the girls smoked, and Alexandra smoked too.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 18, 2004, 07:15:45 PM
I have read many books on the Romanovs and have seen many pictures, but have never come across the "smoking" part! That's very surprising to me, I wonder at what age they were allowed to start?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: James Hogland on February 21, 2004, 10:08:40 AM
Dear Lanie. Where do you get your information about the empress and the girls smoking? We know Nicholas smoked like a chimney, and had a special cigarette holder shaped like a pipe, which allowed him to hold his cigarette in different positions. The empress's sister Victoria Mountbatten also smoked right up to her death at eighty something, which caused her deep, gruff voice.
The pictures spoken of here, if they are the ones I think they are, show the girls in a field, where they have stopped to stroll on a visit to their father at his headquarters during the war. The cigarettes might have been only a way of keeping the flying insects off. This was a common practice at that time, before aerosol sprays.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: BobAtchison on February 21, 2004, 10:27:44 AM
Nicholas gave the girls cigarettes - not many - just a few.  They seemed to think it was very adult.  The photographs and the references to the cigarettes are in the girl's letters on the AP site.

Alexandra smoked special French cigarettes.  She says she does it to calm her nerves.  She also mentions giving it up duing Lent or one of the Orthodox fasts.

Bob
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on February 26, 2004, 08:56:50 AM
There is a picture on page 303 of "The Romanovs; love power and tragedy" of Anastasia lighting a cigarette off of Olga's cigarette as they sit in the park of the Alexander Palace.  The photo is inscribed "O.N. and A.N. are in the Park. A.N. is smoking. The Photo was taken by M.N.   It was Nicholas who taught his daughters to smoke, and sometimes he sent them cigarettes from Stavka.  In a letter to her father, Anastasia once wrote "Thanks for the smokes, we are really enjoying them." (ibid. p. 302)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Katharina on March 09, 2004, 09:02:20 AM
According to Prince Roman Romanov all of the Grand Dukes used to smoke a lot whereas the Grand Duchesses and Alexandra Feodorovna used fans and foulards to get rid of the smoke. There was only one female exception to the rule: the Dowager Empress who was a sort of chain smoker after her husband's death. RR emphasizes the fact that she did not even use a mouthpiece.
Moreover he states that she behaved like this because she was not fond of her daughter in law.

It's interesting that Alexandra Feodorovna made a volte-face later.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Jenna Nash on March 14, 2004, 01:15:06 AM
   I read a thing from the diary of Tatiana and it said someone gave her a smoke and she like it 8)! Well I guess that smoking was cool back then! Wait it is now too ;).                                                                   -Jenna :-*
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 14, 2004, 07:59:21 AM
At that time, and continuing through to the 1950s, smoking was actually thought to have medicinal benefits.  Also, in correspondence to her father, one of the girls makes reference to the concept that smoking would keep flying insects away.  Alexandra smoked, but privately, since it was not considered ladylike but rather daring and--in many circles--mannish.  When OTMA smoked, they did so for several reasons . . . because they were close to their father, and he offered them cigarettes in the manner of one companion to another, and because, like all young people, they were eager to try new things, and things that were rather daring.  But while Alexandra smoked privately, and not as frequently as her husband, Nicholas smoked a great deal, and his health began to reflect it.  No one can dispute that he was in great overall physical shape, due to his love of exercise, but while at Stavka he experienced what today would be diagnosed as symptoms of a heart attack.  Moreover, in some of her photos from the war period, Alexandra shows signs of premature aging.  Although most of this had its root cause in her many years of anxiety re: Alexei, smoking cannot have improved the haggard, worn look on her face. If OTMA had lived, and their interest in smoking had progressed from frivolity to habit, undoubtedly they would have gone from being "cool" to unnattractive and very, very ill.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: borgia on April 12, 2004, 07:39:31 PM
The girls were young women in the early years of a daring new century;that was starting to give new freedoms to females.While they  may   have lived some what isolated  lives;they most likely saw women of court,society,servants smoke.To be one of the new and modern  ,they too,  might have lit up.And because they may have been isolated;all the more reason to do something daring and new.Perhaps even their brother smoked. All the more him;because of his health preventing his  leading a boys usual wild life;he too,would dare.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tatiana02 on November 12, 2004, 04:39:22 AM
Does anyone know if they smoked all the time or once in a while?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarai on November 12, 2004, 07:42:08 AM
Quote
Does anyone know if they smoked all the time or once in a while?


I believe that, unlike their father, the girls smoked only once in a while. When their father gave them cigarettes, they seemed to consider it a real treat, so it was not a usual thing.

Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: rskkiya on November 12, 2004, 08:10:18 AM
Quote
At that time, and continuing through to the 1950s, smoking was actually thought to have medicinal benefits.  Also, in correspondence to her father, one of the girls makes reference to the concept that smoking would keep flying insects away.  Alexandra smoked, but privately, since it was not considered ladylike but rather daring and--in many circles--mannish.  When OTMA smoked, they did so for several reasons . . . because they were close to their father, and he offered them cigarettes in the manner of one companion to another, and because, like all young people, they were eager to try new things, and things that were rather daring.  But while Alexandra smoked privately, and not as frequently as her husband, Nicholas smoked a great deal, and his health began to reflect it.  No one can dispute that he was in great overall physical shape, due to his love of exercise, but while at Stavka he experienced what today would be diagnosed as symptoms of a heart attack.  Moreover, in some of her photos from the war period, Alexandra shows signs of premature aging.  Although most of this had its root cause in her many years of anxiety re: Alexei, smoking cannot have improved the haggard, worn look on her face.



These are all very true

     The daughters smoked due to the the health standards of the age-- it was considered a healthy expectorant  (Remember - 3 out of 4 Doctors smoke "Camels" used to be a advertising jingle... I think ;)) and no doubt because it was "cool" and a special treat !
     Alix also smoked -- its often mentioned in her letters to N.  and while I do agree that Alix began to look haggard in later years, this is indeed as likely to be due to issues related to the war , Alexie, her sciatica, having four teenage and tween age daughters and just being in her late 40 somethings ...  8)

    Who knows what progress science will make in 50-100 years - proving just how off balance our current "health standards" might be! ;D

rskkiya
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sunny on November 12, 2004, 10:03:26 AM
Years ago, in my study of Transpersonal psychology, it was pointed out that smoking can afford the smoker a means to "stuff" anger and sadness, and can in a metaphorical sense, provide a "smokescreen" for the smoker. Imo Nicholas "stuffed"  a lot of his sadness and anger... smoking constantly.

I think that Alexandra's beauty was ravaged by her constant worry for Alexei. Her feelings of personal responsibility for his condition, and seeing it as "divine
condemnation" (page 29 in Greg King's The Man Who Killed Rasputin ) created feelings of guilt that are unimaginable.

Sunny

Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Val289 on November 12, 2004, 11:08:46 AM
Quote
Years ago, in my study of Transpersonal psychology, it was pointed out that smoking can afford the smoker a means to "stuff" anger and sadness, and can in a metaphorical sense, provide a "smokescreen" for the smoker. Imo Nicholas "stuffed"  a lot of his sadness and anger... smoking constantly.

I think that Alexandra's beauty was ravaged by her constant worry for Alexei. Her feelings of personal responsibility for his condition, and seeing it as "divine
condemnation" (page 29 in Greg King's The Man Who Killed Rasputin ) created feelings of guilt that are unimaginable.

Sunny




Interesting thoughts, Sunny- esp. regarding Nicholas..... could very well be close to the truth...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Janet_W. on November 12, 2004, 11:25:36 AM
Absolutely, Sunny.

Smoking, drinking, drugs, eating, gambling, sex, exercise, housework, religious exaltation . . .  all these activities and others can be used to "stuff" feelings.

I have no doubt that smoking--and exercise--helped Nicholas to sublimate his emotions, so that he might appear calm and affable. In fact, I would wager that "the traditional male" often has fallen back on these activities for the same purpose. After all, men are supposed to be rational beings, especially in contrast to emotional, dithery women. So it stands to reason that many men would need some sort of outlet to sublimate all those very human emotions such as anxiety and occasional despair. Smoking conveniently met that need.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 12, 2004, 06:21:05 PM
Quote



      The daughters smoked due to the the health standards of the age-- it was considered a healthy expectorant

rskkiya


My great grandmother (born in 1900) who suffered from chronic asthma, was prescribed menthol cigarettes to "help her breathing!" What a difference from today!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on March 31, 2005, 04:51:23 PM
Do you think they would still have been allowed to smoke if it had been known in those days how harmful it was? Probably not, since Aleksandra was always worried about their health. Did Aleksey smoke, too?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on March 31, 2005, 05:11:03 PM
Probably not. But it was normal to smoke then. Even Alexandra did.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Ortino on March 31, 2005, 05:17:32 PM
I doubt that they would have allowed him given his fragile health and he was still quite young when they started. They most likely started during the war, so Alexei was only 10/11.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: lostfan on March 31, 2005, 06:42:19 PM
In one of the girls' letters, she writes to Nicholas at Stavka to thank him for sending them cigarettes.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tsaritsa on March 31, 2005, 07:15:46 PM
This was discussed in another thread.  I can't locate it at this moment.  

There is also a picture of Anastasia with a cigarette in her hand.  Don't recall which book it was from though.   :o
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on March 31, 2005, 07:28:19 PM
Yes, I recall a caption to that photo saying it must be a fake cigarette as the Empress would not have allowed her daughters to smoke! And yet of course she did allow them, and was herself a smoker (irregular i think, not chronic). I remember reading in her letters how she sent Tatiana to get the cigarettes, but they discovered they had run out. I wondered if maybe the reason why they had run out was 4 certain young ladies had maybe been sneaking cigarettes!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: lexi4 on March 31, 2005, 08:12:37 PM
I really doubt that Alexandra would have allowed somking if she knew what we know about it today.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on March 31, 2005, 08:14:36 PM
Here are two pictures showing the girls smoking. People think in the OTMA picture Anastasia is faking, but I don't believe she is.
(http://img120.exs.cx/img120/3583/resting19162bl.jpg)
This one's a classic! :
(http://img120.exs.cx/img120/342/smokin4sa.jpg)
;D
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Ortino on March 31, 2005, 10:52:59 PM
Interesting how in those shots, Anastasia is the only one with a cigarette in her mouth......Being the comical one, the more I look at them, the more I think they were posed as a joke.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on March 31, 2005, 11:03:03 PM
There aresome of Olga smoking, and I've seen one of Tatiana smoking one cigarette and holding another in her hand.  They all smoked; the girls commented on it in letters, thanking Nicholas for cigarettes.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on April 01, 2005, 02:42:36 AM
never saw marie with a cigerette, but there is another pic of anastasia in a chair with a cigarette
selina              xxxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Katia on April 01, 2005, 03:37:27 AM
Anna Vyrubova also tells in her memoirs that all the girls smoked, but Alexei didn't.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 01, 2005, 09:31:40 PM
I can't beleive it!!! I mean, they weren't allowed to use make up (I read it in another thread) and they were allowed to smoke??? Is that something that was usual in young ladies by that time? ??
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga on April 02, 2005, 06:35:05 AM
Um, try reading the thread.  ::)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 02, 2005, 10:38:45 AM
OK, Now I Get It  :P  ;D
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on April 02, 2005, 09:07:22 PM
Quote
Um, try reading the thread.  ::)

She was only asking a question and nothing there says anything about it being a casual thing at the time for young ladys'...???
Selina, Could you please tell me where you have seen this picture of Anastasia smoking in a chair? i don't think I have seen it before.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on April 03, 2005, 03:30:24 AM
Smoking in the time period of the Romanovs was very common.  It was considered healthy, actually.  Alexandra smoked as well.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on April 03, 2005, 05:20:15 AM
http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-2.html
its at the bottom of the page holly, i think she has a cigerette there
selina                     xxxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarai on April 03, 2005, 03:31:50 PM
There is more about this topic on this thread:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1076880997
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on April 03, 2005, 09:25:10 PM
Quote
Smoking in the time period of the Romanovs was very common.  It was considered healthy, actually.  Alexandra smoked as well.


Does anyone know if the ciggarettes back then were as harmfull as they are now? I think the companies put in some bad stuff to make them addictive...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on April 03, 2005, 11:29:29 PM
They were certainly harmful, and probably without filters too. Even back then, a lot of Orthodox Priests looked upon smoking as a sin - I think partly because of its addictive qualities.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: hikaru on April 04, 2005, 12:52:53 AM
I agree with Lanie. I think that the smoking Ladies at that time considered as fashionable and elegant.
They thought  that the smoking are very contemporary and decadent thing.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: christinedaae on May 31, 2005, 07:36:30 AM
  I was just wondering if the grand duchess were allowed to/had access to makeup? I can't really tell in their pictures. It doesn't seem that they would wear any back then...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 31, 2005, 10:42:47 AM
I think there was a thread on this somewhere, however, I can not rememeber where.
I don't believe they wore makeup at all in their personal lives, maybe for offical photoshoots and other offical things. I am just guessing, so somewhere correct me where I have misguided
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on May 31, 2005, 10:48:22 AM
I thought it that it wasn't write for proper young ladies to wear make up, it was only prostitutes that wore it at that age.
I'm sure older ladies wore make up, like face powder etc, but i doubt OTMA were allowed to wear it.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 31, 2005, 06:42:49 PM
What about when OTMA entered their teens? One problem would be acne. I'm sure they probably would have been allowed a tiny bit of makeup just to cover the spot where acne was.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on May 31, 2005, 06:51:49 PM
Who knows, but most likely not since people then tended to think of women who wore make up as, well, women of ill-repute--actresses, etc etc.  I doubt Alexandra would have let her daughters wear make up, unless it was for the official photographs they took.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on June 01, 2005, 04:50:48 AM
i was a little curious too :D
selina                xxxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Michelle on June 07, 2005, 09:07:31 PM
You know that's another interesting thought:  did OTMA have any acne?  I suppose not and they were incredibly lucky since we can't really see any in photos.  But then again, black and white doesn't show blemishes.  I actually can't imagine them or anyone from back then as having zits and crap like that.  It seems so strange......what do y'all think?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on June 07, 2005, 09:57:07 PM
Quote
You know that's another interesting thought:  did OTMA have any acne?  I suppose not and they were incredibly lucky since we can't really see any in photos.  But then again, black and white doesn't show blemishes.  I actually can't imagine them or anyone from back then as having zits and crap like that.  It seems so strange......what do y'all think?


Well, since everyone gets zits and stuff, I'm sure they did!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Abby on June 07, 2005, 09:59:52 PM
Yeah they would've been incredibly lucky to bypass that little downfall of adolescence! Although their skin looks perfectly clear in the photos. But I guess it wouldn't show up too prominently anyway...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Ortino on June 07, 2005, 10:02:06 PM
Quote
You know that's another interesting thought:  did OTMA have any acne?  I suppose not and they were incredibly lucky since we can't really see any in photos.  But then again, black and white doesn't show blemishes.  I actually can't imagine them or anyone from back then as having zits and crap like that.  It seems so strange......what do y'all think?


I have always thought about this and have never been able to figure it out. They seem to all have flawless skin, but like you said, it could be just the pictures. I wonder what they did back then to fix it or cover it up, since Alix wouldn't let the girls were makeup or anything so face powder's out.....I doubt though that she'd let them walk around like that, after all they were royalty......Hmmm, I'm very curious about this myself.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lanie on June 07, 2005, 10:12:45 PM
I'm sure they used powder, etc--something to cover up things--when taking official portraits at least.  And black and white pictures do not pick up blemishes, so that's probably why their skin looks so great.  I've read someone (Anna Vyrubova?  I think so) saying how Olga had a "flawless complexion," but I doubt it!  I'm lucky and never really did get much in the way of zits or blemishes, though man, my pores are icky (but cleanser fixes it!).  Perhaps they were lucky like me?  Haha.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on June 08, 2005, 04:13:58 PM
Possibly they were just lucky. Some people have more acne than others. Also, not using make-up might have been a factor - their pores might have been less prone to clogging without it. ???
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Michelle on June 08, 2005, 08:00:15 PM
Yes, Georgiy, you are quite right.  It makes sense.  Makeup certainly does clog one's pores and since they didn't wear makeup that probably would've helped matters.  Also, if any of them had zits or blemishes wouldn't one of them have written about it?  Like something along the lines of "Oh pig and filth!  I have another blemish today!"
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 09, 2005, 11:21:49 AM
if they were lucky like my friend, who has only got about two spots in her entire lifetime, >:( they they may not have a got any spots.
sopsxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Laura Mabee on June 09, 2005, 08:09:49 PM
I have yet to wear makeup in my lifetime, and I have never had more then one or two zits in my life. So you're right the lack-of-makeup does make a great difference on the skin
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Janet_W. on June 09, 2005, 08:57:12 PM
Remember that just as photos of Alexandra, aimed for public consumption, were touched up to make her look less worn, it's very posible an occasional Grand Duchess blemish may also have been airbrushed.

Good complexions are influenced by a number of factors, including exercise, diet, heredity, hormones, sleep (or lack thereof), hygience, emotions, and stress.  When I was an adolescent I had horrible skin, despite the fact that I cleansed it regularly. Ultimately medication helped to modify the problem, as did getting older (alas!) plus learning to deal a bit better with stress.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 10, 2005, 09:43:27 PM
People wore make up. I have a 1899 magazine  where you read how to make up yourself properly.  ;)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: xX_Mashka_Xx on June 11, 2005, 02:03:37 PM
I'm sure that, like many other adolescents, the grand duchesses had some acne. You can never know, since black & white photos don't show acne.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Mashka_Fan on July 22, 2005, 05:30:33 PM
Quote
There aresome of Olga smoking, and I've seen one of Tatiana smoking one cigarette and holding another in her hand.  They all smoked; the girls commented on it in letters, thanking Nicholas for cigarettes.


I know this topic is a bit outdated by a few months, but does anyone have the pictures that Lanie is talking about? And if so, could you please post them? Thank-you so much!

  *~Mashka_Fan~*
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Speedycat on July 22, 2005, 08:54:08 PM
Quote
Interesting how in those shots, Anastasia is the only one with a cigarette in her mouth......Being the comical one, the more I look at them, the more I think they were posed as a joke.

Poor Anastasia...getting the blame for smoking in both photos.  But isn't she lighting her cig off of sister Olga's in the second photo?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 22, 2005, 09:06:50 PM
In those times smoking was considered something who makes you healthier. It's weird, but it was like this...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Speedycat on July 23, 2005, 07:54:08 AM
I have a photo of my grandmother and her school friends ( nurses school no less!) all posed with cigarettes in their hands.  She told me she never really smoked (maybe a puff or two) but that it was considered quite stylish, much like young ladies getting tatoos or piercings today.

On the subject of tatoos...wasn't this also a popular thing among Royal ladies in late Victroian times?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Mashka_Fan on July 23, 2005, 12:24:25 PM
I've never heard about such a thing, though I suppose it's possible. Did they even have tattoos back then? ??? Speedycat, could you please tell us where you've read about this?

  *~Mashka_Fan~*
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: DeAnochka on July 28, 2005, 12:59:04 AM
(http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/oneyear.gif)

I don't see the cigarette in this photo! What about the other pictures of Tatiana and Olga smoking? I've never seen them before.

DeAnochka
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2005, 01:07:29 PM
Otma did smoke, I gather although people consider this unlikely because of the reputation it has today. Smoking back then was certainly not healthy, anymore than it is today, but they didn't know that. Smoking had a different reputation back then. So if you say they smoked, you can't say it means the same thing as today, when Otma smoking might be a big deal. To them, it was entirely different than us. If they had known it was unhealthy, it is hard to know if they would have done it.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: julia.montague on October 11, 2005, 07:06:49 AM
Are there more Photos?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 11, 2005, 08:58:15 AM
Quote
On the subject of tatoos...wasn't this also a popular thing among Royal ladies in late Victroian times?


I know of at least two Royal women with tattoos...Queen Olga of Greece and Pss Marie d'Orleans (Pss Waldemar of Denmark) both had tattoos of anchors on their upper arms. Olga as she was the proud daughter of a sailor, and Marie because her husband was one.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Nastya on October 17, 2005, 12:16:18 AM
ive only ever seen pictures of olishka and nastya smoking. if it was very very fashionable then why cant people find pictures of tatiana smoking?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Linnea on October 17, 2005, 03:04:56 AM
Quote
On the subject of tatoos...wasn't this also a popular thing among Royal ladies in late Victroian times?

Empress Elisabeth of Austria also had a tatoo, a anchor on her schoulder. Franz Joseph was of course quite shocked! ;)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarastasia on October 21, 2005, 04:16:23 AM
I've read that Anastasia started to smoke in 1917, and Olga would sometimes join her. They would walk around in the garden, secretly smoking as to keep it from their parents.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: penguin on October 23, 2005, 11:11:59 PM
it wouldn't surprise me if they did smoke. as many people have already posted, it was stylish back then to be at least a social smoker. this is also a time where cocaine is thought of as a cure for a cold, which, at least one book has, that nicholas actually used cocaine for that purpose. so it wouldn't have been unusual if the entire family, except alexei, smoked.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarastasia on October 24, 2005, 03:30:26 AM
And plus, with all the stress of the revolution and such like, maybe Anastasia and Olga used it as a stress relief type thing.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 24, 2005, 07:53:48 AM
Actually i believe that Anastasia started smoking in 1914 or 1915 because i found in a letter that she sent her father in 1915 she thanked him for sending her some cigarettes and that she smokes them with pleasure.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on October 24, 2005, 10:31:28 AM
yes, they smoked which is a rather surprising image of them to have. ;) But it was completely different back then than now. It may have been a form of stress relief during the revolution, and imprisonment. I suppose they still smoked then-does anyone know.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Caleb on October 24, 2005, 05:37:49 PM
Well it seems that many royals in Europe smoked, even in more recent times. King Edward VII, despite his parents' disaproval was a heavy smoker, more or less, smoking like a chimney! Supposedly from what I read, at one point he would smoke 6 cigars & 20 cigarettes a day! No wonder he got pneumonia! I also read that Queen Victoria smoked in her later years, something that she never would have done in the time that Prince Albert was around and certainly  not in her early widowhood. Also I read that King George VI smoked heavily, which had to do with his lung troubles & eventual early death. I also get the feeling that almost all the boys of King George & Queen Mary, except John, smoked.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on October 24, 2005, 05:58:10 PM
I can't see the image... :(
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga_Anna on October 24, 2005, 09:13:54 PM
Quote
http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-2.html
its at the bottom of the page holly, i think she has a cigerette there
selina                     xxxxxxxxxxx

I read in a book that she is waiting for her tea.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on October 26, 2005, 08:47:32 AM
i got that pic on my site, looks like she's got a cigarette somewhere
selina                        xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on October 26, 2005, 10:59:11 AM
As already stated, it was considered fashionable in those times, and they hardly knew of the health risks involved. There also weren't as many chemicals put into the cigarettes then as now, so though it wasn't healthy, it wasn't as unhealthy as it is today....

Alexandra started smoking in her later years, all the daughters smoked, Nicholas smoked--mostly everyone did back then. I even read somewhere that Nicholas' sister, Xenia, smoked 'one after another' in her old age--I don't know when she started smoking.... But I'm sure most of them, the ladies especially, would not have smoked had they known of the dangers then.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on October 26, 2005, 11:11:55 AM
Yes, I am sure they woudn't have smoked either. But being in ignorance they did. Everyone else did, it was a form of relaxation, so there was no reason for them not to smoke.I did not realize it was not as unhealthy back then although I was aware that they were not aware that it was unhealthy at all. I suppose it would have continued into adulthood and later life for them, and it may have become quite a health risk with time. In their youth,  the way they were smoking it most likely did not endanger their health too much. It would have if they continued, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on October 31, 2005, 11:00:33 AM
They did not wear much make up, but maybe for official photos they had a bit. I doubt Alexandra wanted her daughters wearing too much make up, because make up back then had very different conotations than it does today-as did smoking. You have to remember Otma lived in a different time.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on October 31, 2005, 02:11:31 PM
I think the last time I wore make up was to my friend's grandpa's funeral, which was in July of 2004. Yet my skin is horrible. My dad calls me "pizza face."  >:( Maybe OTMA rubbed something into their skin that would help keep acne away? Did they have things like that back then?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Mie on November 03, 2005, 08:39:44 AM
I think that in their freetime they did not use make up. And when they were children they did not use it. But in ball and formal meeting they did, I think. 'Cose I have information about that people used make up in that time..  people have used make up since before Chirstus too.. and while Renessanssi time women (and men) use LOT of make up so I do not think that GD would not use make up..  But I believe that they did not use  plenty of make up when they made up.. :)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tania+ on November 03, 2005, 09:58:18 PM
Don't think they wore makeup, but perhaps I may be wrong. In those days, makeup contained lead, so if your skin was problematic it did not help the skin to breathe properly, and overall was injurious to the system.

Tatiana
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Marishka on November 14, 2005, 12:54:46 PM
Yes, I do not think they wore make up at all, just as many have said, it wasn't exactly something women HAD to do. Plus, in their place, it probably wouldn't look good to do it.
Knowing, or seeing how Alexandra seems, I don't think she would let them either.
In a way, it is a nice thought. Maybe other women can take the example. I hate how makeup makes everything so...unnatural. (Unless of course you're going to a formal. Then that's different)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on November 22, 2005, 08:05:08 PM
Alexandra and OTMA all smoked, Grand Duchess Xenia smoked, the Empress Dowager smoked--it was considered fashionable to smoke--even for women, though many women did look down on it--mostly older women. And they didn't know of the health risks that are involved--they though it was good for you to smoke. But at the same time, though they were still very unhealthy, they weren't as unhealthy as they are today because there were fewer chemicals put into the cigarettes back then than there are today.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on December 02, 2005, 10:30:07 AM
Yes, I have never heard of them wearing makeup, because standards of beauty were different back then, and it wasn't really done, except for maybe official photos.But they would have looked lovely with it. I don't wear makeup, it just seems so much of a hassle, and I have always loved Victorian Beauties who didn't.  ;)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 05, 2006, 02:37:31 PM
Quote
Yes, I have never heard of them wearing makeup, because standards of beauty were different back then, and it wasn't really done, except for maybe official photos.But they would have looked lovely with it. I don't wear makeup, it just seems so much of a hassle, and I have always loved Victorian Beauties who didn't.  ;)

Maybe they would have worn powder for official photos. But nothing more.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on February 06, 2006, 08:21:40 AM
Yes, the last poster is right.. and what a lovely picture of Marie!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tsarfan on February 06, 2006, 02:10:40 PM
The imperial family did wear make-up for official photos and appearances.  (What I'm about to relate has been discussed on other threads, but I don't remember where.)

Generally, the wearing of make-up in that era was viewed as something that only actresses and women of low repute did.  However, the emergence of photography dictated that make-up be worn to neutralize the unwanted artifacts of portrait photography.

Max Factor, who was wigmaker for the imperial theater, was enlisted to assist Alexandra and her daughters with their make-up, as few women in that era had any personal expertise.

(There is an interesting epilogue to the Max Factor involvement.  As a member of the tsar's household, he could not marry without permission.  When that was denied to him because he was Jewish, he emigrated to America where he became a pioneer in the development and application of make-up for the movie industry.  As movies brought make-up more into the mainstream, Max Factor was able to commercialize many of his innovations and thereby found the cosmetic company that bears his name.)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Azarias on February 06, 2006, 08:01:18 PM
Most interesting epilogue!

I guess his being Jewish was something lucky for Hollywood and American women.  ;)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on February 12, 2006, 12:59:14 PM
so jewish people were in tsar's household? a bit strange concerning his amniosity towards jews in general
selina                      xxxxxxx
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on February 12, 2006, 07:31:30 PM
The info Tsarfan gave is very helpful in understanding this issue.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Missy-T on February 21, 2006, 06:55:56 AM
I've read somewhere the woman wore make-up only for official photo's and when they had a cold ( red noses etc.)
And maybe íf the grand duchesses had acne, they would remove it at the photo's, remember that Alix did that to with her face in this (http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3645/alixolgatatianamaria3ar.jpg) photo.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: divine_grace on May 21, 2006, 12:54:32 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but did Max Factor wrote a memoir about his experiences in Imperial Russia? If so, please give the title of the book. Thank you. :)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Princess_Olishka on May 23, 2006, 12:55:47 AM
I'm not too much of an expert on this subject. Just visit here (http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-2.html) and down at the "Few things people don't know about Anya!" part.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: reashka on May 23, 2006, 05:48:53 AM
Quote
Okay, this topic has been bugging me for a while now.  
Why did the grand duchesses smoke?  Personally there is no way on Earth I would ever have allowed it.  Granted I know it was different back then...so sue me for being the softie :-[  I guess I care too much.   :'( >:(

I quite agree with you on that TsarCharles87, but I think we are thinking the modern way, smoking was a fashion during their time and they didn't know the effects smoking does to their health back then. Btw, this topic has also been discussed on couple of threads:

OTMA Smoking (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?num=1112309484/0)

Grand Duchesses' smoking (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?num=1076880997/0)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: marina on May 23, 2006, 11:10:04 AM
Quote
 Personally there is no way on Earth I would ever have allowed it.  then...so sue me for being the softie :-[  :'( >:(

Even in the middle of a desert? :-?  A bit of tolerance is never harmful. I understand that some people feel bad close to a smoker but it's not a shame to smoke!!!!!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grace on May 23, 2006, 04:43:13 PM
Quote
Okay, this topic has been bugging me for a while now.  
Why did the grand duchesses smoke?  Personally there is no way on Earth I would ever have allowed it.  Granted I know it was different back then...so sue me for being the softie :-[  I guess I care too much. :'( >:(

How do you know that you wouldn't have allowed it?  If you had lived in that time, your knowledge about the harmful effects of smoking plus your attitudes towards it from a social aspect would have been totally different.

What we know today about health issues and smoking was not there.  It was a very grown up treat back then for young people.  It was also thought to have a quieting effect and be soothing to the throat.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tania+ on May 23, 2006, 04:49:47 PM
[size=10]Quite true Grace.

What was the 'norm' of yester year was truly in vogue. Though I must say, that many people, royalty or not, were very apprehensive at their children taking up smoking. It was the same taboo as dancing for some people. But for many others, royalty including, it was the 'in' thing, and many did not wish to be left behind. Social norms of that day allowed it to be ok. Even the advertising sold it lock, stock and barrel. With that kind of support, who would have let it go by? I did not know however that some thought it to be a quieting effect or soothing effect for the throat. How sad they came to think that this is what it provided. [As a personal note, my dad had cancer of the throat and lips. So it was injurious, indeed]

Thanks for your input Grace !

Tatiana+[/size]
Quote
Quote
Okay, this topic has been bugging me for a while now.  
Why did the grand duchesses smoke?  Personally there is no way on Earth I would ever have allowed it.  Granted I know it was different back then...so sue me for being the softie :-[  I guess I care too much. :'( >:(

How do you know that you wouldn't have allowed it?  If you had lived in that time, your knowledge about the harmful effects of smoking plus your attitudes towards it from a social aspect would have been totally different.

What we know today about health issues and smoking was not there.  It was a very grown up treat back then for young people.  It was also thought to have a quieting effect and be soothing to the throat.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: TsarCharles87 on May 23, 2006, 05:34:42 PM
Alright, alright...I'll shut the yap.  No more for me thanks, I'm driving!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on May 24, 2006, 02:11:01 PM
I think Tania is correct. Smoking was more acceptable then, although there were conventions against it by some. People were truly ignorant of the bad health issues it could cause, and some thought it beneficial. But this was long before the day when people could have been aware of the health issues.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: granduchess_leah on May 27, 2006, 12:38:03 PM
I THOUGHT OTMA WOULDNT WEAR MAKE UP ESPACIALLY ANASTASIA AS SHE WAS A TOMBOY,,,,,
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Princess_Olishka on May 27, 2006, 07:15:17 PM
I don't believe they did much. Probably the exceptions was when they were having their formal portraits done. I think they always needed permission from Alexandra first. But perhaps, they were curious and wanted to try make-up themselves.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: KarlandZita on May 28, 2006, 08:48:42 AM
I don't think that any young princesses of this time (the 1900s) wore make up. Because it was not yet fashion. On photos, OTMA had always a very natural beauty.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 29, 2006, 05:56:18 PM
Quote
I don't think that any young princesses of this time (the 1900s) wore make up. Because it was not yet fashion. On photos, OTMA had always a very natural beauty.

I agree, I think if OTMA or any other young Princesses did wear make up, it was probably only for formal portraits. Then again since we know official photographs were 'touched up' to erase imperfections they might not have even worn make up then.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 31, 2006, 11:18:29 PM
They DID wear makeup....But makeup was very light back then. You may easily notice it when you watch pics of older women. The fashion back then was to use very light makeup, to give the impression of "the natural thing". It was exactly the opposite as the 1960's fashion, when the makeup was really heavy...I personnally dislikes it. I rather like the more natural fashion of the 1900 and nowadays.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on June 01, 2006, 08:41:43 PM
I also like the way they wore their makeup, it was so nice and fresh faced looking.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tania+ on June 01, 2006, 09:04:19 PM
Thank goodness it was not used widely by them, or others. First for many of the families, it was frowned on i believe, by most as that used by those on the stage, or in theatrics. But to get back to the makeup itself, i believe it had a base of lead in it, which was not good for any person's skin, or health.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: hellokitty2121 on June 02, 2006, 04:10:07 PM
I think that they most likely DID wear some make up.
However I don't think that there was all that much lead in late 19th/early 20th century cosmetics.
BUT--I may well be wrong...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Abby on August 26, 2006, 10:40:42 PM
I don't think I've seen this pic before...just ran across it on Ebay. It almost looks to me like Anastasia is raising a cigarette to her mouth.

(http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/08/10/d8/48_1.JPG)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: aussiechick12 on August 26, 2006, 11:02:55 PM
Thanks Abby! I hadn't seen that picture before, it does look like Anastasia is doing that though!

Another picture of the grandduchesses smoking:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/th_smoking.jpg) (http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e182/aussiechick12/smoking.jpg)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on August 28, 2006, 08:42:45 AM
Yes, they did smoke. And perhaps if we have lived back then and been ignorant of the effects of smoking on health,we might have have had different attitudes than today. It is possible. Really, the damage that smoking can cause to health is fairly recent knowledge, and back then the whole issue of smoking was completely different in reputation than today.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on August 29, 2006, 10:29:14 PM
It doesn't look a thing like Anastasia is smoking in that first picture. It does however look like Tatiana might be having a puff!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Katherine The O.K. on August 29, 2006, 11:10:14 PM
I could of sworn I read something somewhere that said Alexandra disapproved of her daughters' smoking....and I'm fairly certain that it wasn't considered a very 'lady-like' thing to do until the 40's, when companies first started marketing it to women...am I wrong?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: imperial angel on August 30, 2006, 08:20:51 AM
Yes, it wasn't considered ladylike for women to smoke in public anyway. Women did in private though more than we might think given the stereotype of the typical Victorian/ Edwardian woman. By the '20s women did smoke in public though( at least the flappers), and it became more accepted for women to smoke in public.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Georgiy on August 30, 2006, 10:55:25 PM
If Alexandra did disapprove, it would be the pot calling the kettle black as Alexandra smoked too. However, I think I know where you might have got the idea she disapproved. In one of the photo books, it has a picture and it says (something along the lines of) Anastasia is pretending to smoke. She couldn't have been really smoking as the Tsarina's parasol is present and the Tsarina would never have allowed her daughters to smoke. Which as it turns out is pure speculation on the authors behalf as all 4 girls and the Empress smoked.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on August 31, 2006, 08:04:44 AM
I'm not too much of an expert on this subject. Just visit here (http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-2.html) and down at the "Few things people don't know about Anya!" part.
I'd take any info from that site with a grain of salt. She got the part about smoking right, but doesn't know, for example, that "Anya" is NOT a nickname for Anastasia, and that Rasputin's prophetic note to the Romanovs was a forgery. She also believes that the movie character of Vladimir was based on Lenin!  :P Too bad, because if the she had her facts straight, it was a nifty idea to compare history's facts with the movie's fiction.

A cool thing, though, is this recording of Lenin's voice: http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-8.html (http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/index-8.html)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ferngully on September 14, 2006, 02:15:10 AM
its not like they smoked all the time, they figured that every so often wouldn't hurt. i know someone who smokes occasionally, when he is stressed, maybe it was like that? you don't always get addicted on your first puff
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: granduchess_leah on September 14, 2006, 04:17:27 PM
hey i heard of anastasia smokin and i think she properly did along with her older sisters but the one that really gets to me is marie. :P
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Tania+ on September 14, 2006, 05:06:07 PM
Katherine, your correct.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: anna11 on September 17, 2007, 06:04:57 AM
They smoked because they just did, people smoked back then. The dangers of smoking once in a while are greatly overstated anyway.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on September 18, 2007, 09:08:46 PM
Quote
and that Rasputin's prophetic note to the Romanovs was a forgery.

I never got the whole story on that. Was the note forged before or after NAOTMAA was killed, and if before, did Alexandra ever even see it?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on September 18, 2007, 09:35:59 PM
Quote
and that Rasputin's prophetic note to the Romanovs was a forgery.

I never got the whole story on that. Was the note forged before or after NAOTMAA was killed, and if before, did Alexandra ever even see it?

After. It was part of one of the early biographies of Rasputin, printed in the 1920's, I think.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: dolgoruky18 on September 19, 2007, 04:51:10 PM
Queen Victoria detested the smell of tobacco and forbade anyone to smoke in her presence. This caused agonies to many in her household and family  -  including the future Queen Mary, who was a complete cigarette addict. However, the Queen changed her mind in her old age. She occasionally had a cigarette out of doors  -  to keep the insects away. There is, I believe, a photograph in existence showing her doing just that. I must admit I've never seen it, though.

Many of the younger generation of women in the 1890s took up smoking  -  but never in public. It was all about the 'New Woman' image and a sure sign of 'fin de siecle' rebellion. Women who smoked openly were considered 'fast'. Never were women seen smoking in the street if they valued their reputatons. But in private...

In a remarkable series of short films discovered in the last few years, taken by two entrepreneurial photographers at the turn of the last century, there are any number of Edwardian street scenes shown. Men are seen smoking  -  but never women. But open almost any novel of the time and you will find women smoking.

I am not at all shocked that one, if not all, of the Grand Duchesses enjoyed a cigarette on the quiet. They probably begged them from courtiers. Some of their expenditures have survived from pre-revolutionary years (strict accounts had to be kept) and nowhere can there be found purchases from tobacconists.

Nowadays, it seems, some people would rather they had snorted cocaine than having an occasional cigarette. We live, I fear, in strangely eco-facistic times.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ~Aura Angel~ on December 15, 2007, 08:28:49 PM
I have heard from many different resources that OTMA might have smoked. I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this ids true or not? (It was a COMPLETE shock to hear this)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on December 15, 2007, 08:47:25 PM
Of course they did!
There's tons of pictures of them smoking and letters from OTMA thanking their dad for sending them cigarettes. Remember that Nicholas was a chain smoker and Alexandra smoked occasionally to calm her nerves.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ~Aura Angel~ on December 15, 2007, 09:00:06 PM
That is a MAJOR shock, I would NEVER have thought of them as smokers!!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on December 15, 2007, 09:04:22 PM
Here are some photos like that... :)  

Tatiana smoking:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u160/LA_princess_03/untitled.jpg

Anastasia smoking(on the far left):
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u160/LA_princess_03/girlsrest.jpg
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on December 15, 2007, 09:05:55 PM
That is a MAJOR shock, I would NEVER have thought of them as smokers!!
Why is it such a shock? They weren't complete angels! Plus, they didn't really know about the risks in it back then. It was pretty normal. Not a huge deal.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: ~Aura Angel~ on December 15, 2007, 09:18:26 PM
I live in a little village out side Toronto . . I am really isolated, so to me smoking is a big deal, considering half of my HUGE family has died from it, so. . I guess back then it wasnt such a bug deal, jsut used for relaxational purposes, but now, to me thats a shock!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Janet_W. on December 15, 2007, 09:35:28 PM
I don't think it had to do with them being angels or not being angels . . . in those days and in that culture an adolescent being allowed by a parent or parents to smoke might be roughly comparable to adolescents in more recent times being allowed to drink coffee. In other words, a bit of a reach, but accorded in recognition of their growing maturity. And from what is available it appears the girls were allowed to smoke in part because it was thought that doing so helped keep Tsarkoe Selo's pesky bugs away . . . just as we might apply repellant or burn a specially formulated candle in more current times. The dangers of smoking--unless one was clearly excessive, as in drinking too much (alcoholism) or eating too much (obesity)--were not recognized in those times.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on December 15, 2007, 09:42:33 PM
Yes, that's right. I remember Tatiana saying she didn't have a cigarette with her so the misquitos were "litteraly eating her".
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: anna11 on December 17, 2007, 04:09:52 PM
Quote
I don't think it had to do with them being angels or not being angels . . . in those days and in that culture an adolescent being allowed by a parent or parents to smoke might be roughly comparable to adolescents in more recent times being allowed to drink coffee. In other words, a bit of a reach, but accorded in recognition of their growing maturity. And from what is available it appears the girls were allowed to smoke in part because it was thought that doing so helped keep Tsarkoe Selo's pesky bugs away . . . just as we might apply repellant or burn a specially formulated candle in more current times. The dangers of smoking--unless one was clearly excessive, as in drinking too much (alcoholism) or eating too much (obesity)--were not recognized in those times.

Exactly. Smoking was just something everyone did back then. You shouldn't compare it so the tabooness (is that a word  :D) of smoking today, or think any less of OTMA for doing it. Who knows, in 100 years people might look back on you and get a huge shock from the fact that you ate mashed potato.

And lets face it, many, many  people these days enjoy still a cigarette. I'm in France atm, and the culture is totally different. Legal age is 16, and teachers join the kids outside for a smoke at lunch time.

Also, Nicholas says something like 'My nose hurts, so i'm thinking of spraying it with cocaine' in one of his letters, and Alexandra mentions opium in hers. I guess showing that such drugs were just a part of life.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on December 18, 2007, 10:19:19 AM
Also, Nicholas says something like 'My nose hurts, so i'm thinking of spraying it with cocaine' in one of his letters, and Alexandra mentions opium in hers. I guess showing that such drugs were just a part of life.

Really?
Now that shocks me! :o
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 18, 2007, 11:53:38 AM
woah! i never heard of the Cocaine thing before,
then again i know they used a lot of drugs back then for like painkillers because they didnt know about the effects that it had on the brain and body.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Valmont on December 18, 2007, 02:09:33 PM
Cocaine was used as a cold remedy too.. sometimes as an energy booster, People in those times just were not aware of the side effects.. it was pretty common to use this "medicines".. who knows what will be written about aspirins in 100 years from now...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Decadence on March 08, 2008, 05:07:40 PM
Nobody knows what cigarettes they smoked do they?? (haaa, *totally knows i'm getting a bit detailed here*)
but Sobranie cigarettes do have The Imperial Eagle on them! :)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: anna11 on March 09, 2008, 01:48:34 AM
Well, Alexandra smoked French cigarettes didn't she? I suppose OTMA smoked the same brand.

OT- You know there's a Smirnoff vodka bottle with an imperial crest on it? It says 'Imperial vodka of Russian court, 1855-1917' or something like that? haha I was hheaps exicted when I found actually looked at the label.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on March 09, 2008, 09:09:36 AM
I don't know if OTMA smoked regularly enough to develop a preference for a particular brand. Nicholas occasionally sent the girls cigarettes while he was at the front in WWI, and their letters indicate this was something of a treat. Does anyone know what kind NII smoked? Anyhow, if the girls were habitual smokers, I would expect there to be a lot more photos of them with cigarettes instead of just a handful.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: FadedDreams on June 21, 2008, 12:35:54 AM
I confess, I was quite surprised when I heard that they smoked. Though I do know from reading about Tolkien and C.S. Lewis that back then, smoking was considered healthy. But it still bugs me.
People only see the glamour of the smoking. You never see what the results are. Those who have smoked many years end up as haggard, wasted and tired looking. I know. I used to have neighbors who smoked like chimneys and their home stunk, one lady had cancer and a young woman's little baby boy had coughing problems.
Smoking is bad for you.
Luckily, it seems that the girls didn't smoke regularly. But can you imagine if they did? They may not have been the same lovely girls they were (though that doesn't mean that I think that beauty is everything!)
Oh well, whatever. Smoking was thought of differently back then anyway. :-/

And I didn't mean to preach or anything. I just wanted to get that off my chest. :)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on June 21, 2008, 02:00:03 AM
I don't see it as that big of a deal. Nicholas was, of course, a chain smoker and he sent the girls a few to help them with their nerves. It's not like they sat around all day in their rooms smoking and listening to the gramophone. ::)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: nena on June 21, 2008, 06:29:50 AM
I don't see it as that big of a deal. Nicholas was, of course, a chain smoker and he sent the girls a few to help them with their nerves. It's not like they sat around all day in their rooms smoking and listening to the gramophone. ::)
Yes. I don't see any reason for OTMA's phyhical nervous....and their nerves ??
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on June 21, 2008, 06:41:46 AM
Smoking was an indulgence -- like eating chocolates -- that people perceived as soothing and relaxing. It doesn't necessarily mean OTMA were nervous. ;-)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 22, 2008, 12:15:32 PM
Queen Victoria detested the smell of tobacco and forbade anyone to smoke in her presence. This caused agonies to many in her household and family  -  including the future Queen Mary, who was a complete cigarette addict. However, the Queen changed her mind in her old age. She occasionally had a cigarette out of doors  -  to keep the insects away. There is, I believe, a photograph in existence showing her doing just that. I must admit I've never seen it, though.

Many of the younger generation of women in the 1890s took up smoking  -  but never in public. It was all about the 'New Woman' image and a sure sign of 'fin de siecle' rebellion. Women who smoked openly were considered 'fast'. Never were women seen smoking in the street if they valued their reputatons. But in private...

In a remarkable series of short films discovered in the last few years, taken by two entrepreneurial photographers at the turn of the last century, there are any number of Edwardian street scenes shown. Men are seen smoking  -  but never women. But open almost any novel of the time and you will find women smoking.


Very true and well done, and I like the way you put it. :)
Title: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 06:26:40 AM
just wondering what happened to the elgant clothes OTMA wore during formal events, such as the one where they are sat on the sofa with their hair up ( part form Ana) and othe photo's that were taken during the 1913/1914 sessions. also what about everday clothes they wore aswell? any help apperciated! :)


Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on July 24, 2008, 08:40:38 AM
Tom, probably they survived and now it's hold in Russian museums...... ;)
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Formalne%20slike%20and%20Romanov%20assorted/OTMA/th_otmanice2.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Formalne%20slike%20and%20Romanov%20assorted/OTMA/otmanice2.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Formalne%20slike%20and%20Romanov%20assorted/OTMA/th_OTMAnice.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Formalne%20slike%20and%20Romanov%20assorted/OTMA/OTMAnice.jpg)

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2008, 08:47:24 AM
Some of it is on display at the Alexander Palace museum.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 09:43:09 AM
oh im glad i thought they were stolen or burnt
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 24, 2008, 09:49:15 AM
Every piece of clothing that was left in the AP was inventoried and put into storage.  Its all still there and there is a LOT of it. Even socks and underwear.  Bob has seen it, and a curator even let him hold a pair of Alexei's socks! 

Everything that went to captivity is gone.  Either burned at the Ipatiev House, Sokolov found the remains and ashes, or what little was left was sent to the Romanov Family in exile in the big trunks.  The family then burned all the clothing, fearing that they might become "relics".  The trunks though they still have. Bob and I were able to see three of them, one Nicholas', one Olga's, one Maria's. 

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 09:50:53 AM
fascinating thanks forum admin! i must go to russia when i am older!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2008, 10:07:06 AM
Everything that went to captivity is gone. 

That probably means that their favorite clothes and things are gone, since I would assume that they would have taken those into captivity with them...
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 10:20:43 AM
That probably means that their favorite clothes and things are gone, since I would assume that they would have taken those into captivity with them...
[/quote]

-------
oh yes! how sad.but i guess they didnt need them any more where they were going :'(
also when the family were awakened on the 17th july 1918, did they have time to pack-i cant imagine so
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 10:42:32 AM
make up was worn so publically ( e.g all the time) until the 1920's
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: EmmyLee on July 24, 2008, 12:28:41 PM
Since there are still a lot of clothes that have been preserved, I really wish they'd put more of them on display or photograph them so we could see them.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: sgc on July 24, 2008, 12:42:31 PM
oh yes! how sad.but i guess they didnt need them any more where they were going
also when the family were awakened on the 17th july 1918, did they have time to pack-i cant imagine so

According to all written eyewitness accounts presently available regarding those early morning hours of 17 July, the family was specifically told not to pack anything because their belongings would follow them at a later date.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 01:30:02 PM
According to all written eyewitness accounts presently available regarding those early morning hours of 17 July, the family was specifically told not to pack anything because their belongings would follow them at a later date.
[/quote]

-----------------------------------

once agian , sgc, many thanks!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Valmont on July 24, 2008, 03:57:46 PM
But, did all the clothes left at the Alexander palace survive?. Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading that during the German Invasion of WWII, the Empress clothing was used as part of the "packaging" material  when the palace's treasures were being evacuated, so, furs and undergarments  were used as lining to protect whatever was being packed. This somehow gave me the idea that the family's clothing was considered "disposable"..

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 25, 2008, 05:35:08 AM
thats awful about alix clothes! apperantley during ww2 german officers used to take the furs and wear them themselves to keep out of the cold
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 25, 2008, 07:10:13 AM
fascinating thanks forum admin! i must go to Russia when i am older!

I agree on that, I intend to go myself once. To Saint-Petersburg and Tsarskoe Selo to visit the Alexander Palace and the Winter Palace, and to Tobolsk to visit the Governor's Mansion(I'd love to visit it - it is a museum isn't it?), and Yekaterinburg to visit the Church on the Blood and the Burial Place - to be honest i am saving money, so i can use that later for the trip since it'll be expensive i assume.

And back on-topic, I was also under the impression that everything was stored in the AP, Aldo during the Communist Regime it wasn't able to know for sure, since they didn't want connections to the former past, but i am glad that allot is preserved, so we can see a glimp of their lives and the glorious past of Russia.

And I think it is horrible that the Germans used Alix' clothes to package thins and stuff. They  didn't even think about the fact that  Alix was a German Princess from birth, but they intended to do worse to the AP itself so, I guess we should be glad that didn't work
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2008, 07:34:40 AM
The Germans did not use the clothes for packing, the Russian curators did. They had a very short amount of time to evacuate the palaces of the valuables and used whatever was at hand.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on July 25, 2008, 07:38:08 AM
Yep, Governor's Mansion is museum:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_d2c5803e.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/d2c5803e.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_sobaNIIToboljsk.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/sobaNIIToboljsk.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_gubernatorske.jpg) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/gubernatorske.jpg)
I do also love to visit all places where IF were---Darmstadt, Mogilev, Kronstadt, Smolensk, AP,Tobolsk,Ekaterinburg,.....
And back on-topic, I was also under the impression that everything was stored in the AP, Aldo during the Communist Regime it wasn't able to know for sure, since they didn't want connections to the former past, but i am glad that allot is preserved, so we can see a glimp of their lives and the glorious past of Russia.
Agreed!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Michael HR on July 25, 2008, 08:43:36 AM
Sadly the Germans did a great deal of damage to the AP and other palaces before they left. Shame is a word the Nazi's did not seem to understand.

Michael
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2008, 09:23:01 AM
Useful items, like shoes, coats, linens, and furs were taken by Russians long before the Germans even arrived.   If you read SAVING THE TSAR'S PALACES by  Morgan & Orlava you will  understand more of the story. Also, PAVLOSK by Massie.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 25, 2008, 09:48:26 AM
Useful items, like shoes, coats, linens, and furs were taken by Russians long before the Germans even arrived.   If you read SAVING THE TSAR'S PALACES by  Morgan & Orlava you will  understand more of the story. Also, PAVLOSK by Massie.
---------------------------------------------

thanks i'll check them out  :)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Michael HR on July 25, 2008, 09:56:15 AM
Hi Robert,

Will do. In fact I have Pavlosk and have not read in some time.

Trust you are well

Michael
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 25, 2008, 10:18:43 AM
I'll have to check on them, aldo you could guess the communists didn't care about the past, and i am not surprised to learn they used useful stuf during the war.But then again, there wasn't much more of a choice i guess.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Michael HR on July 25, 2008, 10:33:54 AM
I am not sure I agree fully with this. They perserved much more than was lost. Pavlosk has been restored after the Nazi's destroyed it, Catherine Palace has been restored, the Winter Palace is more or less intact etc. So much could have been wiped out that was kept thank God. I agree some has gone but much remains and for that at least we have to thank them I suppose.

Michael

I'll have to check on them, also you could guess the communists didn't care about the past, and i am not surprised to learn they used useful stuff during the war.But then again, there wasn't much more of a choice i guess.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 25, 2008, 10:48:52 AM
I am not sure I agree fully with this. They perserved much more than was lost. Pavlosk has been restored after the Nazi's destroyed it, Catherine Palace has been restored, the Winter Palace is more or less intact etc. So much could have been wiped out that was kept thank God. I agree some has gone but much remains and for that at least we have to thank them I suppose.

Michael


I agree on that, they had the chance to destroy allot but didn't. But still, I can't help that i feel about it that way, its just that they wanted to erase the Imperial past, or give the world a wrong view on it and only for that I dislike them.(to be honest i hate the communist regime)

And then i forgot that they broke down the Ipatiev House because it became a place of pelgrimage, and had been visited by Monarchists who wanted to pay their respects. And the government didn't want it, because it showed people cared for the fate of the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2008, 11:12:34 AM
Michael HR is quite right. The Communists  saved and restored far more than was lost. The Imperial past was not erased, it was re-translated.  One of Lenin's first acts was to forbid the looting of the palaces [other than the wine cellars and that was to prevent mass drunkedness]
 As for the clothes,  much is displayed  at the Hermitage, Kremlin and the AP itself Gowns and uniforms mainly, often on a rotating basis, as it is in most museums. I saw the 1903 Ball  costumes  at the Kremlin. Spectacular!
  Old/antique fabrics are very difficult and costly to display & maintain.  This is why so few are out at any one time.
 Also, if one is freezing and wearing rags for shoes, finds  closets full of  furs, coats and boots- well, why not?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 25, 2008, 11:23:03 AM
I saw the 1903 Ball  costumes  at the Kremlin. Spectacular!

oh your so lucky to see them! :)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 30, 2008, 02:12:02 AM
Quote
Everything that went to captivity is gone.  Either burned at the Ipatiev House, Sokolov found the remains and ashes, or what little was left was sent to the Romanov Family in exile in the big trunks.

Who sent the remaining clothing from the Ipatiev House to the surviving Romanovs?  The Whites after they captured Ekaterinburg?  I assume it wouldn't have been the Bolsheviks, but I've learned not to try to apply logic to anything communists do.   ;)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 30, 2008, 09:23:21 AM
It was actually the Bolsheviks who sent the trunks to the Family.  It was sort of a publicity stunt, to say "yeah we sent everything that was left".  The truth was that the trunks held nothing of value at all. Frayed table napkins and tablecloths, towels, clothing, broken bits of china.

I spoke with Bob again about the clothes.  They didn't save "everything", just the expensive and fancy couture, and Nicholas' and Alexei's clothes. The girls' "everyday" clothes were sold at used clothing shops in Petrograd.  Don't forget, they were hopelessly out of date and fashion by the 1920s, and the Civil War had made clothing quite scarce. So, shoes, skirts, underwear, socks, etc. were needed by "the people" and were not seen as necessary for the "museum" mission of the AP.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 30, 2008, 09:31:37 AM
It was actually the Bolsheviks who sent the trunks to the Family.  It was sort of a publicity stunt, to say "yeah we sent everything that was left".  The truth was that the trunks held nothing of value at all. Frayed table napkins and tablecloths, towels, clothing, broken bits of china.

That is cruel, I might overreacting but it just is. That's like saying 'now you've got your proof, they're gone forever.' and once again it shows how much the Communists hated the Romanov's, even in exile they couldn't stop harassing them... >:(

I wonder what it must have done to The Dowager Empress Maria and Nicky's sisters. Does anyone know if they actually saw what was in the trunks by any chance?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 30, 2008, 09:37:23 AM
It was actually the Bolsheviks who sent the trunks to the Family.  It was sort of a publicity stunt, to say "yeah we sent everything that was left".  The truth was that the trunks held nothing of value at all. Frayed table napkins and tablecloths, towels, clothing, broken bits of china.

That is cruel, I might overreacting but it just is. That's like saying 'now you've got your proof, they're gone forever.' and once again it shows how MUCH the Communists hated the Romanov's, even in exile they couldn't stop harassing them... >:(

I wonder what it must have done to The Dowager Empress Maria and Nicky's sisters. Does anyone know if they actually saw what was in the trunks by any chance?


if i remember correctly then some trunks were sent to buckingham palace where they were opened by one of nicholas sisters (?) in front of the king and queen at first they found only clothes but later on when they looked again thet found jewels sewn into their clothes.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 30, 2008, 10:00:55 AM
No, this is not true.  Its a rumor that has been going around for years. First of all, the Bolsheviks KNEW that they had sewed jewels into their clothing, so they certainly would have searched every last scrap before sending the trunks.  The sorry state of the clothes etc that did arrive attests to that, they even had cut into the lining of the trunks to make certain they hadn't hidden anything there.  I saw these cuts myself.

Second "if" Olga or Xenia "had" discovered "secret jewels" why in the world would they have TOLD anyone? Makes no sense, does it?

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 30, 2008, 10:06:32 AM
No, this is not true.  Its a rumor that has been going around for years. First of all, the Bolsheviks KNEW that they had sewed jewels into their clothing, so they certainly would have searched every last scrap before sending the trunks.  The sorry state of the clothes etc that did arrive attests to that, they even had cut into the lining of the trunks to make certain they hadn't hidden anything there.  I saw these cuts myself.

Second "if" Olga or Xenia "had" discovered "secret jewels" why in the world would they have TOLD anyone? Makes no sense, does it?

i didnt know it was a rumor, thanks for informing me. your're very lucky to see the trunks!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 30, 2008, 10:10:54 AM
No, this is not true.  Its a rumor that has been going around for years. First of all, the Bolsheviks KNEW that they had sewed jewels into their clothing, so they certainly would have searched every last scrap before sending the trunks.  The sorry state of the clothes etc that did arrive attests to that, they even had cut into the lining of the trunks to make certain they hadn't hidden anything there.  I saw these cuts myself.

Second "if" Olga or Xenia "had" discovered "secret jewels" why in the world would they have TOLD anyone? Makes no sense, does it?

I agree with you, and those Bolsheviks...

I just hate them, Lenin wanted a revolution for the good of the Russian people, but it didn't turned out so good....

And indeed they knew, Yurovsky found jewels in the clothting the IF and servants were wearing that night so it seems reasonable that they searched all personal belongings of the IF where the jewels might have been hidden.

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Alexander1917 on July 31, 2008, 08:01:29 AM
Some of the dresses went also in exhibitions....for example there were some dresses of Minnie and Alix in Munic (Fabergé and Cartier) 2004  and also (despite the fact of communism) there were a exhib. at Schloss Pillnitz (near Dresden) former GDR in the 1980's, calling "Dresses from the IMperial Court" , some uniforms, livree, and dresses of Alix....I got a catalouge in German and Russian of this.....
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Michael HR on July 31, 2008, 09:26:10 AM
We must I suppose be grateful so much has survived to this day when it could all have been lost. It is a shame that the members of the family burnt what was sent from Ekaterinburg but I understand why they did this.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Forum Admin on July 31, 2008, 09:39:31 AM
We also have to remember that the clothes that were sent back were nothing fancy or special.  There were "everyday" clothes albeit of the finest manufacture, and they were years out of date and out of fashion, a bit frayed and worn, and of no use to anyone except to be either painfully sad memories of murdered family members or worshiped as relics, neither of which the Romanov family found to be what they or their departed family members would have wanted.

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on July 31, 2008, 12:59:29 PM
i agree, well said FA !
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Holly on August 01, 2008, 12:44:13 AM
The family then burned all the clothing, fearing that they might become "relics".  

They thought their clothing might be come relics??
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Michael HR on August 01, 2008, 04:03:31 AM
True but as history would have it they were made saints so it would not have mattered in the end. Often when a family member dies clothes are disposed of as they are a painful reminder of the past and in this case a very painful one for some many members of one family to have died at the same time. I cannot imagine how I would have coped.

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on August 01, 2008, 05:27:36 AM
True but as history would have it they were made saints so it would not have mattered in the end. Often when a family member dies clothes are disposed of as they are a painful reminder of the past and in this case a very painful one for some many members of one family to have died at the same time. I cannot imagine how I would have coped.

lets hope none of us have to go through that as well
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: sgc on August 01, 2008, 06:02:44 AM
True but as history would have it they were made saints so it would not have mattered in the end. Often when a family member dies clothes are disposed of as they are a painful reminder of the past and in this case a very painful one for some many members of one family to have died at the same time. I cannot imagine how I would have coped.

lets hope none of us have to go through that as well

Michael's observations in his previous posting regarding the clothing and/or personal belongings of deceased loved ones are expressed quite well. Unfortunately, some of us have already had to go through this painful ordeal.

If I may make a purely subjective comment: some individuals (and this all depends on their makeup) wish to hold onto certain items as remembrances of a person who has passed away. Others couldn't even fathom doing such a thing and consider such actions to be morbid; please understand there is absolutely no definitive right or wrong on a subject so emotionally personal as this one is.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Holly on August 01, 2008, 02:34:14 PM
My apologies, I was a little confused, I thought FA had said that they burned their own clothing because they thought they would become relics. I can understand their wish to burn family members clothing.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Jebediha on November 19, 2008, 12:13:08 PM
I remember i read a couple of years ago . That the favourite magazine of OTMA. Was National geographic and there favourite drink was cola ?

i can`t find the site anymore so i don`t have a link. But anybody know if this is actually true or just something they made up ?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Holly on November 19, 2008, 03:42:58 PM
I read that back in 2005 when someone on this forum told me about it. I've never seen it published anywhere but as far as I know it is true. No one ever said it was the favorite magazine but they did read it.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: amartin71718 on November 19, 2008, 04:32:13 PM
i think there was an article about the Mauve Room that said that there were several issues of National Geographic among the books and magazines. It's on the main site.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on November 19, 2008, 05:54:16 PM
I also recall reading that the children drank Coca-Cola, but I don't remember the source right now.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 19, 2008, 11:03:39 PM
Was this something they drank all the time, or something they had only to try or on special occasions?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Alixz on November 20, 2008, 12:07:36 AM
I had never heard this, but about the Coca Cola - I believe that in the late 1800s and early 1900s it still contained cocaine.

I wonder if it did calm the nerves and if there was enough cocaine in it to do much.

Speaking of which, since both Alix and Nicky used drugs, I wonder if the children did, too?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: carkuczyn on November 20, 2008, 12:43:21 AM
What drugs did Alix and Nicky use?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on November 20, 2008, 01:36:20 AM
I know that Nicky took cocaine during the war. Cocaine was a common remedy in those days for fatigue. 
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 20, 2008, 07:00:00 AM
I doubt the children did any drugs, since Aleksey wasn't even allowed morphine for his hemophilia.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: amartin71718 on November 20, 2008, 07:29:23 AM
They smoked. Does that count?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lalee on November 20, 2008, 07:44:47 AM
The girls enjoyed smoking, but I don't think Alexei did/took anything, due to the fact that he was quite young and physically fragile.

Interesting about Coca-Cola!  ;D
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on November 20, 2008, 07:50:20 AM
I wonder if Olga took cocaine after she collapsed at the hospital? Her father took cocaine when he suffered from fatigue, so maybe she did that as well. What I do know is that she took doses of arsenic after her collapse.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lalee on November 20, 2008, 09:33:13 PM
I wonder if Olga took cocaine after she collapsed at the hospital? Her father took cocaine when he suffered from fatigue, so maybe she did that as well.

Never heard of her to take cocaine.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Jebediha on November 21, 2008, 02:46:38 AM
I wonder if Olga took cocaine after she collapsed at the hospital? Her father took cocaine when he suffered from fatigue, so maybe she did that as well. What I do know is that she took doses of arsenic after her collapse.

I don`t think she did
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on November 21, 2008, 06:26:41 AM
I wonder if Olga took cocaine after she collapsed at the hospital? Her father took cocaine when he suffered from fatigue, so maybe she did that as well. What I do know is that she took doses of arsenic after her collapse.

I don`t think she did

Hopefully she didn't!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Halinka on November 21, 2008, 07:44:53 AM
I wonder if Olga took cocaine after she collapsed at the hospital? Her father took cocaine when he suffered from fatigue, so maybe she did that as well. What I do know is that she took doses of arsenic after her collapse.

I don`t think she did

Hopefully she didn't!
If I remeber correctly -why do I never have my facts with me, when I make my post!!- there's pictures of them smoking.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on November 21, 2008, 07:50:41 AM
If I remeber correctly -why do I never have my facts with me, when I make my post!!- there's pictures of them smoking.

Yes, they did indeed smoke and enjoyed it very much. In 1915 Tatiana wrote to her father;
"...I am writing to you again and am smoking the cigarette which you gave to me at the time of Lent and I did not have time to smoke it. I am enjoying it now."
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Halinka on November 21, 2008, 07:54:18 AM
If I remeber correctly -why do I never have my facts with me, when I make my post!!- there's pictures of them smoking.

Yes, they did indeed smoke and enjoyed it very much. In 1915 Tatiana wrote to her father;
"...I am writing to you again and am smoking the cigarette which you gave to me at the time of Lent and I did not have time to smoke it. I am enjoying it now."

Yay!! A whole bunches of thank you Erika! I was 99% sure they did, but I didn't remeber exactly where the evidence to back up the facts! So thank you!! Also, Welcome to the website!!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on November 21, 2008, 08:23:22 AM
For more info and photos of the children smoking:

OTMA Smoking (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=43.0)
Smoking (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=9420.0)
Did OTMA smoke? (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10684.0)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on November 21, 2008, 08:30:35 AM
If I remeber correctly -why do I never have my facts with me, when I make my post!!- there's pictures of them smoking.

Yes, they did indeed smoke and enjoyed it very much. In 1915 Tatiana wrote to her father;
"...I am writing to you again and am smoking the cigarette which you gave to me at the time of Lent and I did not have time to smoke it. I am enjoying it now."

Yay!! A whole bunches of thank you Erika! I was 99% sure they did, but I didn't remeber exactly where the evidence to back up the facts! So thank you!! Also, Welcome to the website!!

You welcome! And thank you! I love this website. Thank you Sarushka for the links.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: carkuczyn on November 22, 2008, 05:00:18 AM
No one has said yet what drug Alix used........
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lalee on November 22, 2008, 06:38:55 AM
No one has said yet what drug Alix used........

I believe I remember reading somewhere that Nicholas and Alix both took a same drug, during the war years or after, I am not sure :P ...
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: amartin71718 on November 22, 2008, 10:18:25 AM
I know she used veronal for her heart palpitations.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on November 22, 2008, 10:56:12 AM
No one has said yet what drug Alix used........

There are LOTS of threads around here on Alexandra's health -- I'm sure if you do a search in the Alexandra forum you'll find the info in one of them.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: susana on November 23, 2008, 02:23:34 PM
All of these posts and no definitive sources just opinions. Of course the imperial children had access to a good diet, exercise, good genes but you do have to wonder--out of 5 kids not one adolescent bump? And how advances was photo retouching? I've seen sloppy slashes of something like white-out and with electricity being pretty new how do you suppose anyone got hold of an airbrush?

This is a great topic for someone to research--vanity must have demanded some kind of facial enhancement AND I read that the Dowager Empress may have had some sort of facelift that involved shellac. Can you imagine holding up loose skin with a coat of shellac? I'd bet money that the Queen of Romania used makeup--whatever they had at the time--powder. Come to think of it--what if they used powdered minerals like some of us are doing today? Very light and natural and can be custom-colored. That would be funny.

Also got to say--lead-based paint and other materials were used in America through the 50's I think--the poisonous connection was a little slow in realization.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on November 23, 2008, 06:11:18 PM
All of these posts and no definitive sources just opinions. Of course the imperial children had access to a good diet, exercise, good genes but you do have to wonder--out of 5 kids not one adolescent bump? And how advances was photo retouching? I've seen sloppy slashes of something like white-out and with electricity being pretty new how do you suppose anyone got hold of an airbrush?

Retouching technology was advanced enough at the turn of the century to significantly retouch coronation photos of Queen Alexandra of Great Britain -- bags under the eyes, wrinkles, and other signs of aging were entirely erased from photographs for public distribution. It wasn't unheard of for the Russian imperial family to have their formal photos retouched as well, though judging by their personal snapshots I don't think they indulged in retouching with the same fervor as Edward VII's wife.

For example, it's my understanding that Alix's chin was reshaped in this 1913 portrait:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/th_AOTMA2.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/?action=view&current=AOTMA2.jpg)


I've also heard speculation that Tatiana's nose was retouched in this court dress pose from 1910 or 1911:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/th_OTMAAcourt1.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/?action=view&current=OTMAAcourt1.jpg)


And I personally believe the details of the lacework on the girls' dresses were enhanced/highlighted in the 1910 session:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/th_Tatiana1-3.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/?action=view&current=Tatiana1-3.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/th_Olga2-3.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/?action=view&current=Olga2-3.jpg)


So the short answer is yes, I think it's entirely possible that any teenage blemishes could have been erased from OTMA's formal portraits.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on November 24, 2008, 01:15:21 AM
It was actually the Bolsheviks who sent the trunks to the Family.  It was sort of a publicity stunt, to say "yeah we sent everything that was left".  The truth was that the trunks held nothing of value at all. Frayed table napkins and tablecloths, towels, clothing, broken bits of china.

I spoke with Bob again about the clothes.  They didn't save "everything", just the expensive and fancy couture, and Nicholas' and Alexei's clothes. The girls' "everyday" clothes were sold at used clothing shops in Petrograd.  Don't forget, they were hopelessly out of date and fashion by the 1920s, and the Civil War had made clothing quite scarce. So, shoes, skirts, underwear, socks, etc. were needed by "the people" and were not seen as necessary for the "museum" mission of the AP.

I didn't realize they sold them in used clothing shops.. interesting. So the common people were wearing clothes that had once belonged to the grand duchesses albeit it was very outdated clothing. There's a scene ( I haven't seen the movie in years) in the animated film Anastasia just before Dmitri and Vladimir meet Anastasia that reminds me of that- doesn't it say something about their clothes or something connected with them being sold in shops of used things? Maybe I'm wrong. It is a pity more clothing wasn't preserved, but lucky some stuff was. I can't blame their relatives for burning the clothes- unpleasant memories, and the items can't have seemed useful. They couldn't look far enough ahead to see they were burning history- not in the sense of relics, but that the clothes would have historical value. Then again, they might not have cared, or would have seen assigning the clothes historical value as calling them ''relics''. Can someone post some photos of OTMA's surviving clothing to this thread?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:17:52 AM
Display at the AP:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_NAOTMAA19102.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=NAOTMAA19102.jpg)

Curator Tamara Korshounova with some of the IF's clothing:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_TamaraKorshounovacurator.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=TamaraKorshounovacurator.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:18:54 AM
OTMA's summer dresses from childhood:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAsummerdaydresses.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAsummerdaydresses.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAsummerdaydresses2.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAsummerdaydresses2.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAsummerdaydress.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAsummerdaydress.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:19:42 AM
OTMA's court dresses from 1910 or 1911:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMA.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMA.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAcourtdress19102.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAcourtdress19102.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAcourtdress1910.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAcourtdress1910.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:20:08 AM
Olga & Tatiana's court gowns from 1913:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_ONTNcourtgowns1913.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=ONTNcourtgowns1913.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:22:47 AM
I *think* this robe may have belonged to Anastasia, but I'm not certain:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_ANrobe.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=ANrobe.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 24, 2008, 08:24:49 AM
One more shot of OTMA's 1910-11 court gowns:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_OTMAcourt1910.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=OTMAcourt1910.jpg)

Photos of the the Big Pair's regimental uniforms can be found here: OTMA's regiments (http://OTMA's regiments)

I also have photos of some of Aleksei's clothing -- let me know if you'd like to see those as well.


Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 24, 2008, 08:34:49 AM
From official Hermitage site:

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_D0B4D0B5D18220D0BBD0B5D182D0BDD0B5D.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/D0B4D0B5D18220D0BBD0B5D182D0BDD0B5D.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_D0BBD0B5D182D0BDD0B5D0B520D0B4D0B5D.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/D0BBD0B5D182D0BDD0B5D0B520D0B4D0B5D.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_D0BBD0B0D182D18CD0B520D0B4D0BBD18F2.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/D0BBD0B0D182D18CD0B520D0B4D0BBD18F2.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 24, 2008, 08:36:14 AM
Oh, forgot to add these:

Tatiana´s
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_TN.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/TN.jpg)

Maria´s
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_mn.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/mn.jpg)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: susana on November 24, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
I believe you're right. I can't tell about Alexandra's chin without comparative photos at hand (I'm not sure she had a dimple in her chin) but all the noses appear to have been 'straightened' in the childrens' portrait. Tatiana's is actually the most exxagerated and unattractive to me, and yes, highlights have been added to the lace on the dresses. I had no idea retouching was so advanced. Good catch!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: rosieposie on November 25, 2008, 04:14:46 AM
I didn't know that Olga took arsenic, I know a small dose can be deadly so I'm unsure if that was true.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: carkuczyn on November 25, 2008, 04:42:36 PM
what is arsenic supposed to do for you?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Lalee on November 25, 2008, 06:57:18 PM
what is arsenic supposed to do for you?

If I remember correctly, it's meant to calm your nerves.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Condecontessa on November 25, 2008, 07:30:29 PM
I thought the robe belonged to Alexei. Please Sarushka, can you please post Alexei's clothing? Thank you.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Ally Kumari on November 26, 2008, 01:12:13 AM
I´m sure Sarushka will have more, but still I´m posting these:

Alexei´s christening gown
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_FILE0827.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/FILE0827.jpg)

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_HVIQM1N8Y_23403HHK6.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/HVIQM1N8Y_23403HHK6.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/th_PMLOW_408Z3RNX3S_403.jpg) (http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/dresses/PMLOW_408Z3RNX3S_403.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 26, 2008, 06:56:57 AM
Life Guards 1st Urals:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNLifeGuard1stUrals.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNLifeGuard1stUrals.jpg)

Life Guards Chasseurs:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNLifeGuardsChassuers.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNLifeGuardsChassuers.jpg)

coats:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNcoats.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNcoats.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on November 26, 2008, 06:59:40 AM
Other accoutrements:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNbadge.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNbadge.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNepaulettesmaybe.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNepaulettesmaybe.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNepaulettes.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNepaulettes.jpg)

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNBoots.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNBoots.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_AlNhat.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=AlNhat.jpg)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Condecontessa on November 26, 2008, 08:57:44 AM
Thank you Sarushka and Grand Duchess Ally!!! :)
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on November 27, 2008, 04:32:53 AM
Aleksei's uniforms 1 (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/0_f284_c0939fb4_L.jpg).
Aleksei's unifroms 2 (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Gorz9a.jpg).
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 27, 2008, 04:53:10 AM
Alexei grew so fast, he must have required new uniforms every year. Which is a bit of a waste, as he generally wore each one only once a year. Perhaps some could be altered when need, others replace only when the occasion arouse. Of course anyone raising growing children knows this dilemma.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 09, 2009, 07:01:46 PM
So, are their make-ups the same with what's today.
I know our make-ups are now made better. But did they have foundation, face powder, rouge and the like or something else ?

Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Leyla on January 09, 2009, 09:05:00 PM
So, are their make-ups the same with what's today.
I know our make-ups are now made better. But did they have foundation, face powder, rouge and the like or something else ?



I believe they wore only face powder when they would have their formal photographs taken. On other occasions and ordinary days, I don't think they wore anything at all.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on January 09, 2009, 09:37:51 PM
I think Tatiana's nose was retouched in many of her formal photos. You can see the shape of the bones in her nose in a lot of the candid photos that aren't there in the formal ones.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 10, 2009, 01:26:07 AM
Yes,it's true that coca-cola has cocaine before.
they're not informed about it.
and coca-cola is not my favorite. hohoho
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Erika on January 10, 2009, 04:11:03 AM
I remember reading somewhere that Coca-cola was Queen Victoria's favorite. I am not sure were I read it. It is possible that I read it in a Swedish history magazine. I will look it up.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: tom_romanov on January 10, 2009, 01:31:57 PM
I've heard this before.Ithink it was discussed on some old Tatiana thread. But I agree with you it does look like the bone was 'removed'
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 11, 2009, 02:57:07 AM
and even her nose looked more pointed and aquiline like her mother's. Hers was just moderately pointed.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: yeeee22 on January 13, 2009, 04:41:46 PM
so did they smoke marijuana to calm there nerves or cigaretts? because wasn't marjuana proscribed in those days to calm nerves?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Jennifer on January 13, 2009, 06:41:42 PM
I never knew that Coca-cola was invented in the early 1900's! But then again, I never took the time to research. ::) That's a good question yeeee22! You could find some information by researching one of these questions:
1) Was marijuana available to Russians back then?
2) Was it popular?
3) Would Alexandra let her children use it?
Or you could use one of the links Sarushka posted. It might say in one of those threads. :-\  I think they used cigarettes though, because Erika posted:"...I am writing to you again and am smoking the cigarette which you gave to me at the time of Lent and I did not have time to smoke it. I am enjoying it now."
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Leyla on January 14, 2009, 02:09:29 AM

3) Would Alexandra let her children use it?



Apparently the children did actually drink Cola.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on January 14, 2009, 08:53:28 AM
so did they smoke marijuana to calm there nerves or cigaretts? because wasn't marjuana proscribed in those days to calm nerves?

Not that I'm aware of. The tsar favored a brand of Turkish cigarettes, and according to some sources Alexandra smoked French cigarettes early in her marriage.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Jennifer on January 14, 2009, 05:11:07 PM

3) Would Alexandra let her children use it?



Apparently the children did actually drink Cola.
Leyla, I was not talking about Coca-cola, I was talking about marijuana.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 14, 2009, 08:10:57 PM
Do they smoke because they want to be relaxed?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Jennifer on January 14, 2009, 08:35:22 PM
 I'm pretty sure they smoked when the war began because they might have been nervous or depressed. I've never heard of them smoking before the war, though.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 14, 2009, 08:54:31 PM
There's a picture where Anastasia was smoking but Nicholas held the cigarette for her. It can be found on her Pictures thread (but it would take you too long to see her picture), or just search for that picture in the Search toolbar?(I don't what that is called). I hope you'll find it. Sorry Jennifer.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on January 14, 2009, 10:57:11 PM
I'm pretty sure they smoked when the war began because they might have been nervous or depressed. I've never heard of them smoking before the war, though.

Before the war, they probably weren't considered old enough to smoke. ;-)
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 15, 2009, 01:40:04 AM
Did marijuana have effects on Alix and Nicky?
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: rosieposie on January 15, 2009, 04:03:48 AM
I had a giggle at the last post sorry if I find your questions amusing in a very immature way.   
Did Marijuana have effects on Alix and Nicky?
Answer of course it would have had effects for example, they would have felt calm and mellowed.   Try looking it up on wikepdia for the effects of smoking marijuana.

How I know of these is cause my boyfriend is an avid user.  I don't smoke however.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Olga Maria on January 15, 2009, 07:03:47 AM
Oh probably my bad english caused confusion. I know the effects of marijuana but were there any new effects on them just like being moodier or silent. I'm just kind of curious that's why i posted it. Well, you answered my question, rosieposie. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Jennifer on January 15, 2009, 04:56:09 PM
 Does anyone know what year OTMA started smoking? I think it might have been around late 1914/ early 1915.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Grand Duchess Jennifer on January 15, 2009, 05:46:38 PM
I'm pretty sure they smoked when the war began because they might have been nervous or depressed. I've never heard of them smoking before the war, though.

Before the war, they probably weren't considered old enough to smoke. ;-)
But if Olga was 19-22 when she smoked, and Tatiana started smoking somewhere around age 17-18, wouldn't Maria and Anastasia have to wait until they were that age to start smoking? It does not make sense that Olga and Tatiana couldn't smoke when they were 14/16, but the little pair could. That's why I don't think it could have been ages that made them not smoke before the war, but just the fact that they were happy and not depressed.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: rosieposie on January 17, 2009, 02:40:46 AM
what is arsenic supposed to do for you?

Arsenic was a perfered choice for murder (especially by women) of the Victorian period.  It's oderless and taste to the victims.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking and make up ?
Post by: Sarushka on January 17, 2009, 09:25:42 AM
what is arsenic supposed to do for you?

Arsenic was a perfered choice for murder (especially by women) of the Victorian period.  It's oderless and taste to the victims.

Arsenic is toxic to insects, bacteria, and fungi, so it was also used medicinally from the 17th to the 20th centuries. Recently, the FDA approved arsenic for treatment of a certain type of leukemia.

Low doses of arsenic are not toxic, but increasing exposure leads to a number of unpleasant symptoms and eventually death by poisoning. However, by 1836 the Marsh test had been developed, making arsenic poisoning traceable and subsequently a much less ideal means of murder than it had been in the past. Fear of detection by the Marsh test actually decreased instances of arsenic poisoning during the Victorian era.

According to Wikipedia:
In the Victorian era, "arsenic" (colourless, crystalline, soluble "white arsenic") was mixed with vinegar and chalk and eaten by women to improve the complexion of their faces, making their skin paler to show they did not work in the fields. Arsenic was also rubbed into the faces and arms of women to "improve their complexion".
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 01:27:57 PM
Does anyone know whether the white gowns with the beading along the edges that OTMA wore in the 1914 formal portraits still exist or not? I searched around the forum but only came up with someone's observation from about 4 years ago that they likely still existed somewhere, but there was no source given. If this has question has been asked before and answered, direct me to the right place.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 05, 2009, 01:33:32 PM
If they still exist, they are mostly in the costume archive in the Hermitage museum. That is where most of their clothes ended up.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on April 05, 2009, 01:37:38 PM
Or even at Livadia, but most likely like Robert_Hall say.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 03:45:07 PM
But if they do still exist, don't you think we would have seen them by now as they are rather prominent dresses, being that they were worn by OTMA for well known formal photos?  I guess I'd just love to see them.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 05, 2009, 07:02:49 PM
They very well have been displayed in   exhibitions. at the Hermitage.  Many gowns and uniforms have,  since the change.
 These are always   short lived, ad the fabrics are very fragile and need  special care. The clothes are rotated for preservation. Also, many were used to wrap the  other treasures during the evacuation  from the siege. There are all sort of scenarios  about this.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 07:26:34 PM
I am just surprised if they survived they haven't been publicly seen, to my knowledge, which is limited. I would like to see the beading on the gowns. I was looking at one of the formal pictures of OTMA today and the beading struck me, that it would be interesting to see it in a modern photo. Maybe Sarushka knows something about what happened to these gowns, since she's defintely the OTMA expert here.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 05, 2009, 07:40:49 PM
IA, did you not read my previous post, in answer to your question?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 10:43:46 PM
Yes, I did. That's basically what people have said about them in this thread, but I don't think you were refering to these dresses specifically. I meant in all three of my posts ONLY the 1914 dresses with beading they wear in the 1914 photos, which I believe they also wear in the 1913 formal photos, not any of their other clothes. Since no one seems to know specifically about these specific dresses, I guess my question is answered then.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 05, 2009, 11:02:52 PM
I would think then, that the only way to find out about those dresses specifically would be to contact the  costume archiveist directly and ask them.  Then, wait for an answer. I can understand  your interest.  They are iconic in our iamges of the IF, especially  the GDs. The uniforms  and heavily emboideered and beaded tend to last longer, whereas those  look rather fragile and  coming up tp to 100 years old, are, like I said,  very fragile. Fabric is the trickiest  to preserve.  I will be in Amsterdam to see the new Hermitage exhibition and if I get the chance, will ask someone about them. Interesting search.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 11:09:19 PM
So you would just e-mail the costume archivest listed on the Hermitage website (which I just visited tonight to see if the gowns were mentioned anywhere and they aren't that I could find)? Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do that. I agree, the 1913-14 gowns do look fragile. The court gowns shown on this thread look sturdier.Then again, the summer dresses that OTMA wore in childhood also depicted on this thread seem fragile too, and they survived. I looked for the e-mail on the website for the costume archivest and couldn't find it- would you know it? I could just e-mail them anyway, you can e-mail them with information request in general.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 05, 2009, 11:23:34 PM
Exactly. And, if at all possible,  enclose a picture of the exact dresses/gows you are inquiring about. Yes, some of their children's clothes did sutvive, they were packed way and sent into  archival storage when they outgrew them.  I have seen a some  on exhibit, in the children's museum im Moscow I think.  They are extremely fragile and look about ready to fall apart though. They are handled by expert curators and are only on display for limited times.
 Good luck in your search!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 05, 2009, 11:27:14 PM
I will just e-mail them in general then, and they will refer it to the right person. I did note they had many gowns on the Hermitage website that belonged to other women in the 1910s- 1912 era that looked a lot like OTMA's gowns in the 1913-14 pictures, so if those survived, maybe OTMA's did too. Update: I e-mailed them using the general e-mail provided for information requests since I couldn't find a specific one for the costume archivest. I wasn't able to send a picture since you couldn't send attachments, but if they follow up and aren't sure about which gowns I will send a picture. These gowns are fairly well known, anyway.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: markjhnstn on April 06, 2009, 04:25:41 AM
I'm still amazed sometimes when i look at photos of clothes or the AP today etc and realise that it all really happened. It was not some huge work of tragic fantasy fiction that I've watched on tv or read and re-read the novels of but real-life events of the past.

A world long gone.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on April 06, 2009, 07:40:26 AM
I'm sorry, I don't have much of any information about the girls' clothes in general or those dresses in particular. All I can tell you that might be of help is that the woman seen here with OTMAA's clothing is Tamara Korshounova, a curator at the AP:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_TamaraKorshounovacurator.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=TamaraKorshounovacurator.jpg)

Not sure if she's still there, but it might be worth an inquiry.


Incidentally, this image was posted by Lisa Aubrey in a another thread some years ago:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/th_Unknown2.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Art%20and%20Letters/?action=view&current=Unknown2.jpg)

It's by Brisac, and came from the Alexander Palace in 1917, so could have belonged to OTMA. I don't think it's a match with the dresses in the 1913 or 1914 sessions, but it's similar enough in style and construction that there's reason to hope that more dresses may have survived.


I meant in all three of my posts ONLY the 1914 dresses with beading they wear in the 1914 photos, which I believe they also wear in the 1913 formal photos, not any of their other clothes.

IMO, the dresses are different in the 1913 and 1914 sessions.

In 1913, the Little Pair's dresses had beaded kaftan-like sashes and a cuff of beading around each sleeve that isn't present in the 1914 portraits. You can see the sleeve details here (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/AOTMA1-1.jpg) on Maria's dress. The sash is much more difficult to pick out in B&W, but if you can find a careful colorization of this 1913 pose (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/NAOTMAA6.jpg), it should be visible along the waist and down the front of Anastasia's dress, running alongside Aleksei's sailor collar.

In 1914, the Big Pair had tassels on their sleeves, and a triangular panel of embroidery on the bodice. The tassels show up nicely in this 1914 profile of Tatiana (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/Tatiana3-1.jpg), and the embroidery here (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Formals/OTMA3Lanie-HUGE.jpg), below Tatiana's brooch.

I thought perhaps that in 1914 the Little Pair are just wearing the Big Pair's dresses from 1913, but now I believe they're different. In this 1913 pose of the Big Pair (http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7865/bigpair5largebright.png), you can see that the beaded pattern on the bodice of Olga's gown is circular, with something like an upside down tulip pointing to the waistline. Yet the Little Pair's 1914 gowns have a pattern of horizontal festoons across the bodice -- seen clearly here (http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8043/littlepair1.png).

That said, the Little Pair's 1914 skirts are similar enough to their sisters' 1913 gowns that I wouldn't be surprised if at least part of Maria and Anastasia's dresses in 1914 were in fact made over from the Big Pair's 1913 gowns. So you may be looking for a minimum of SIX dresses:

2 - Little Pair 1913
2 - Big Pair 1913/Little Pair 1914
2 - Big Pair 1914
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 06, 2009, 08:11:18 AM
Thanks so much, that's very helpful! That gown does look quite a bit like theirs. I didn't realize they were different gowns but now that you point it out, I see it. Who made these dresses by the way? Many of the evening dresses that are a bit like their 1913 and 1914 gowns that are on the Hermitage website are Russian made, but the gown you posted that looks more like theirs was French made.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on April 06, 2009, 12:18:43 PM
From what I have read , 1914 dresses were created by Lomova. Is it true?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on April 11, 2009, 11:14:26 AM
I've heard that too. In Court of the last Tsar it quotes (about Olga and Tatiana's clothes) - " Their Russian court gown now extended to the floor, and their day dresses, tea dresses, and evening gowns,frequently ordered from the Moscow couture house of Lamanova...".
So I am guessing that it was probably Lamanova ( who appears to be popular with them) where they got their white, 1914 dresses from. Although it could have been any of the couturiers on the Nevesky Prospect or even the fashion houses of Europe?
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on April 11, 2009, 12:14:32 PM
It might be Lamanova then, thanks Tom, for quote. I a not really into early 20th century, so I don't know. Probably there are similarities in fashion i Nevsky prospect and rest of Europe.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on April 11, 2009, 01:01:48 PM
I'd think so, but I'm guessing that Nevsky prospect was cheaper than the European fashion houses though!
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 12, 2009, 02:31:01 PM
Not that expense was a concern for them. But I looked on the Hermitage website and under the picture they show of Tatiana's 1913 court dress ( in Russian style) it says was it was made by Olga Bulbenkova ( if I'm spelling that right)'s workshop. So maybe the white dresses came from there too, more than likely they were Russian made.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: nena on April 12, 2009, 02:39:48 PM
Yes, spelling is correct, see:

http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/dresso&t.html
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: imperial angel on April 14, 2009, 01:35:39 AM
I was just reading in Helen Rappaport's new book on p. 20 that when suit cases of the Romanov's stuff arrived at Ekatrinburg, Alexei's baby clothes were among them. I don't why the IF would have packed those. I suppose it was sentimental reasons, reminders of a past life.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: tom_romanov on April 14, 2009, 04:57:21 AM
That is very scary imperial angel, around the time you posted your  post, I was reading that very passage in that book! And I suppose you are right Alexi's baby clothes were probably just reminders to their past. It must have been important for them though, given they had little time to pack- Makes you wonder what else they packed.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: TampaBay on April 14, 2009, 09:26:21 AM

I was just reading in Helen Rappaport's new book on p. 20 that when suit cases of the Romanov's stuff arrived at Ekatrinburg, Alexei's baby clothes were among them. I don't why the IF would have packed those. I suppose it was sentimental reasons, reminders of a past life.



The also packed complete riding gear.

TampaBay

Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Sarushka on April 14, 2009, 11:07:03 AM
The APTM main site has a List of Palace Items that went to Tobolsk (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/tobolsklist.html).
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: Geniebeanie on June 10, 2009, 11:23:11 PM
A few years ago, I went to to the Nicholas and Alexandra exhibit.  they had the nursing outfits of the Empress and the Grandduchess. A few of the girls clothes and what I thought was so sad, Alexie's teddy bear.  Seeing the bear brought tears to my eyes.   I think it was a stief,   I have the catolog will have to find it and look thru it again.
Title: Re: what happened to OTMA's clothes?
Post by: AnastasiaNikolaevna on July 04, 2010, 01:25:56 PM
Sorry if this has been posted before!

Just wondering--does anyone have any pictures of the outfits of any of the Romanovs? I saw some beautiful photos of Emperess Maria of Dagmar's clothes, and I've seen some current day photos of OTMA's court dresses, etc. etc., but any new photos would be great.

Thanks!
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking, make up and clothes
Post by: cointrelles on June 24, 2013, 10:30:55 AM
I know this is very late but I believe someone was looking for this photograph

(http://i40.tinypic.com/6glgth.jpg)

Also, in reference to the IF's use of marijuana Dr. Sir Russel Reynolds (Queen Victoria's personal physician) frequently prescribed cannabis to his patients. Although there is no evidence to suggest he prescribed it to the queen herself he did use it with many other patients. Additionally,  the Queen had previously used Opium, Coca (raw cocaine), wine and chloroform all for medical purposes.
Title: Re: OTMA - smoking, make up and clothes
Post by: Joanna on February 13, 2020, 06:06:05 PM
The Clothes and Toys of Grand Duchess Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia and Tsarevich Alexei

https://winterpalaceresearch.blogspot.com/2020/02/the-clothes-and-toys-of-grand-duchess.html

Joanna