Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Stuarts of Scotland => Topic started by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 01:28:32 PM

Title: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 01:28:32 PM
I thought this amazing woman deserved her own thread. She was born in 1596 to James VI of Scotland and Anna of Denmark. When she was 7 her father became King of England so she went to live in London. The culprits of the gunpowder plot intended to seize her persona and make her Queen. When she was 16 she married her exact contemporary, Frederick, the Elector Palatine of the Rhine (the two were then styled 'Prince and Princess Palatine'). In 1619, Frederick accepted the Crown of Bohemia, but was driven out by the Hapsburgs after one winter - hence Elizabeth's name 'the Winter Queen.'

Her marriage was quite happy, and she seemed to inspire personal devotion from people who knew her, not unlike her grandmother, Mary Stuart.

She was so popular, she was often called 'The Queen of Hearts' (as, some 300 years later, Diana, Princess of Wales would be called).

After living most of her life in exile in the Hague, she died in 1662.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 01:32:10 PM
(http://www.hoogsteder.com/journal/journal6/portrait/big/honthorst.jpg)

(http://www.hfac.uh.edu/gbrown/philosophers/leibniz/ElizabethStuart/images/ElizabethStuart.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 01:34:18 PM
As a fresh faced and pretty youngster:

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs/bohemia.jpg)

Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 01, 2005, 02:06:07 PM
Quote

After living most of her life in exile in the Hague, she died in 1662.



She died in London, didn't she? I don't know much about Elizabeth! Do you know any intimate aspects of her marital life? Or her relationship with her children? I know her first son died aged 15 and drowned, but I don't know about the circumstances of his death!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 02:11:18 PM
Yes, I beleive she did die in London. LOL - I'm in the middle of reading a book about her, and others, the Stuart Princesses so I'll tell you more when I read it!  :D

She and Frederick were in love apprently, and their married life seems to have been happy. When they had to flee from Prague, a solider saw a small bundle left behind, so he picked it up and threw it into a wagon. Only when it started crying did he realise it was Prince Rupert, Elizabeth's youngest son!  :o

When she was in exile, she suffered a lot of financial trouble, and her son Charles Louis (now restored to the Electorate) tried to help her out from time to time - he seemed to be fond of her.

Her children appear to have been devoted to her - especially her daughters.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 02:19:29 PM
Here's all Elizabeth's children:

   * Heinrich-Friedrich 1614-1629
   * Karl Ludwig I 1617-1680
   * Elisabeth 1618-1680
   * Rupert 1619-1682
   * Maurice 1621-1652
   * Louise Hollandine +1709
   * Eduard 1625-1663
   * Henrietta Maria 1626-1651
   * Sophie 1630-1714

Obviously, because Sophia was the mother of George I, Elizabeth is the ancestor of every British monarch since.

Rupert was the famous 'Prince Rupert of the Rhine' who fought on the royalist side for his uncle Charles in the English Civil War and terrorised the Roundheads, who thought he was the devil!

One of Karl Ludwig's daughters was 'Liselotte' who married Philippe 'Monsieur' d'Orleans, whose first wife was Charles I's daughter Minette.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 01, 2005, 02:40:58 PM


I wpould like to add some children to your list, Prince, if you don't mind! ;)

* Stillborn son in 1615.
* Stillborn son in 1616.
* Ludwig (1623-1624).
* Johann Philip Friedrich (1627-1650).
* Charlotte (1628-1631).
* Gustav Adolph (1632-1641).
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 02:46:46 PM
Oooh, I didn't know about them: my source must have been not including children who died so young. Elizabeth had children at very stressful times in her life - 18 years between the eldest and the youngest! She was obviously very fertile, and Frederick very virile.  ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 01, 2005, 03:00:36 PM
Elizabeth's daughter Elisabeth (1618-1680) was a very interesting woman. Highly intellectual, she corresponded with Descartes (about mathematics!) for a long time. She became a protestant abbess!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 03:02:50 PM
I don't think any of Elizabeth's daughters produced children . . . except Sophia of course!  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 01, 2005, 03:30:07 PM


Tell us more about Louise Hollandine, please!


Well, it doesn't seem like they did. I read somewhere that Henrietta Maria was expecting a child when she died in Transilvania, but I think the source was not very reliable, so...

What did Henrietta die of?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 01, 2005, 03:59:47 PM
Louise Hollandine was born when Elizabeth and Frederick were in exile in the Hague. The Dutch were very generous to them, and Elizabeth gave her daughter the name 'Hollandine' as a thank you, and the Dutch states general were her godparents . . . She died in 1709 at the age of 86.

I'm afraid I can't find any info on what Henrietta died of . . .  :-/ perhaps someone else can help?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: trentk80 on September 01, 2005, 04:32:54 PM
Frederick and Elizabeth were in love during all their lives. If I remember correctly, Shakespeare wrote The Tempest for their wedding, or at least, it was performed during the festivities.

Yes, Elizabeth died in London while visiting her nephew King Charles II.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: trentk80 on September 01, 2005, 04:54:26 PM
Quote
I know her first son died aged 15 and drowned, but I don't know about the circumstances of his death!


In 1629 Elizabeth's eldest son Frederick Henry drowned in a boating accident. His father, King Frederick was devastated and never quite recovered his spirits, dying two years later.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 02, 2005, 04:24:01 AM
I feel a bit sorry for her -she had her moment of glory to early and the rest of her life always seem like a bit of a postscript somehow - she reminds me of an aging silent movie star. She still called herself Queen of Bohemia in the 1660s, when it must have seemed a bit absurd.

As Prince Lieven says, the Gunpowder plotters wanted to put her on the throne of England and Scotland. I think they figured James, Anne and Henry would be wiped out in the explosion, leaving the nine-year old Elizabeth at home. They thought they would thus be able to impose a more tolerant policy towards the catholics. (What would they have done with Charles?).

I'm not surprised her daughters didn't marry. They had been brought up as the daughters of a king and nieces of Charles I. The Elector Palatine lost quite a lot of his lands as a result of the Bohemian fiasco, and I think they were pretty hard up. After 1645 they couldn't even count on the English connection. Therefore they couldn't make the top-notch marriages Elizabeth would have wanted for them. It says a lot for Sophia that she was the exception that proves the rule.

Her sons seem to have suffered from similar high expectations matched by lack of real opportunity. Rupert  made a career fighting for his uncle -  others seem to have caused Elizabeth a lot of grief with various escapades.

The restoration must have been a relief. I'm not surprised she returned to London. Samuel Pepys mentions her in his diaries, recording her death in February 1662 in Leicester House on the North side of Leicester Square. The note in my copy says she had moved there only five days before from Drury House in
Drury Lane " the residence of Lord Craven, to who it has been asserted that she was married".

Probably just good friends though!

Pepys had met her in May 1660: "she seems a very debonair, but a plain lady."
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 02, 2005, 11:26:28 AM
I found some more info on the Queen of Hearts.

Apprently, Elizabeth had what Plowden describes as a 'casual' attitude towards her children . . . perhaps someone can elaborate on this??

Henriette Maria, who died young, was the beauty of the family apprently.

Elizabeth was godmother to Prince William II of Orange, who later married her niece Mary Henrietta, Princess Royal. This was to help soothe the awkward social situation in the Hague - the Princess of Orange, Amalia van Solms-Braunfels, had been lady-in-waiting to Elizabeth in the Palatinate!

Elizabeth and Frederick were deeply affected by the death of their eldest son Frederick Henry, who was a lively and attractive boy who ironically reminded Elizabeth of her late brother, Henry, Prince of Wales.

When Frederick died in 1632, it fell to a family physician, Dr Christian Rumph, to inform his 36 year old widow.

Though Dr Rumph told it me very discreetly, wrote Elizabeth, It was the first time that I was ever frightened.

Charles, her brother, was now King of England and offered her a home there, but Elizabeth refused - she new that eventually, she would have to fight for Charles Louis's rights to the Palatinate.

She was a truly amazing woman, almost universally well-beloved. Yes, she still called herself Queen of Bohemia till death, and her allies styled her 'Her Majesty' and referred to her as the Queen.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 02, 2005, 04:55:54 PM
Yes I'd forgotten about Amalia. The Hague years sound so awful really. Am I right in thinking of Amalia was the kind of person who would always be reminding you of  who was boss now? Even if she was an understanding, nice person the situation can't have been very pleasant.

It is to Elizabeth's credit  that she kept smiling through. I think Pepys' adjective "debonair" speaks volumes about her character.

In my last post I tried to explain why Elizabeth might have had difficulty relating to her children - she was still "Queen of Bohemia", but they had to find their way in the real world.

Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 02, 2005, 08:27:28 PM
Luise Hollandine never married and became abbess of Maubisson at some point, says worldroots.com.  Nice alternative to marriage or staying at home with mother.  Hollandine is kind of a strange name; I don't think I've ever read of any royal with that name.  She lived around 1622-1708, so esp. for the 17th century she lived for a long time,
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 03, 2005, 04:30:32 AM
Hi Lenelor Miksi

William the Silent had at least four daughters named after cities or provinces. I agree it is a bit wierd:

Catherina Belgica (1578 – 1648);
Charlotte Flandrina (1579 – 1640);
Charlotte Brabantia (1580 – 1631); and
Emilia Antwerpiana (1581 – 1657).

I think Antwerpiana is the silliest. These ladies were still alive when Elizabeth was naming her children.

Can anyone think of any others? (off topic I know)

Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 06:23:25 AM
Of topic, yes, so I'll make it quick - Princess Victoria Melita of Edinburgh: the 'Melita' was after Malta, where her father was serving with the navy and where she was born.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on September 03, 2005, 07:04:41 AM
From what the paintings say about her, she sure looks like her father.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 07:07:16 AM
You think? I'll post a pic of James I to compare:

(http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/james/james6.jpg)

(http://www.pbs.org/shakespeare/images/players/king-james1.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 07:08:27 AM
James gave Elizabeth and Frederick very little help when they needed it most - he just wasn't prepared to go to war to help his daughter and son-in-law.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 07:09:05 AM
Hmm . . . James and Elizabeth have the same eyes, I think . . .
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: PssMarieAmelie on September 03, 2005, 07:12:59 AM
Quote
Hmm . . . James and Elizabeth have the same eyes, I think . . .




Exactly my point.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 03, 2005, 07:17:13 AM
About the strange names, the first daughter of Manoel of Portugal (1568-1638), claimant to the Portuguese Crown, and of his wife Emilia von Nassau-Orange was called Maria Belgica for Belgium. Another of their daughters was called Ana Frisia. I don't know what this Frisia means, could it be in reference to a city from Holland or Belgium??
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 08:07:09 AM
Wasn't there a Portuguese princess called Januaria . . .?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 03, 2005, 08:14:43 AM
Yes, Januaria de Bragança, but I think it comes from the name Jenaro or Genaro, but I don't know if there is an English version of the name!!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 08:19:53 AM
Some Irish girls are named after place names - like 'Kerry' and 'Clare' . . .

Back to topic . . .
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 03, 2005, 04:29:59 PM
Or Shannon!

also Valentia, I think would be a very nice name.

(very off topic)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Kimberly on September 03, 2005, 04:33:52 PM
Hey don't forget Queen Brittney ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 03, 2005, 04:42:12 PM
Or Virginia. Or Georgia. Or Dakota. Or Carolina. Still, this is way off topic - tsaria will string me up and throw things at me (not that she's mean - I'd deserve it  ;)) so back to the Winter Queen please!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 04, 2005, 01:45:38 AM
To get back to topic (interesting offroads, though!)  A picture of the Winter Queen that probably everybody has seen, but you get to see it again:

Dang it! I keep pasting the image into the subject box ! >:(
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/WinterQueen.jpg)
OOOh, this is called something...come back to me, knowledge from art classes.  A lithograph?  A print of some kind.  Whatever, I'm not looking it up.  I always thought she had blond hair from this...this...picture.  Of course the miniature shows her with red hair and the painting with brown.  So what color was her hair?  Maybe she had some sort of dyeing technique!  So unlikely...
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 04, 2005, 07:15:50 AM
Thank Lenelor! I've actually never seen that image . . . I think Elizabeth had 'auburn' hair, at least as a child - it was a stuart characteristic, and as she aged, it darkened, not unlike that of her brother Charles.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 06, 2005, 02:03:54 PM
Some more Elizabeth info!!

When her brother Charles was executed in 1649, Elizabeth had not seen him since he was 13. Nevertheless, she was furious and distraught, and said that anyone with the remotest connection with the Commonwealth government had better not come to her house, or they would be thrown down the stairs!

Up until Charles's execution she had tried to keep on reasonably good terms with the Commonwealth government, since they were paying her pension, she now severed all ties with them completely.

Her realtions with her children suffered during this period - Charles Louis had given Charles I no support and rumour said he had hoped to be offered the English throne. Rupert and Maurice were expelled from England and became smugglers, but Maurice vanished at sea in 1652, never to be seen again.

Another son, Edward, converted to Rome and married a French heiress. At first the Queen was furious, but eventually came round, not least because she realised Edward would never need to borrow money off her again.

A young French man, Jacques d'Epinay, had been paying Elizabeth and her daughter Louise attentions, and though Elizabeth saw no harm in it, her son Philip did, and challenged Jacques to a duel. When the authorities prevented this happening, Philip stabbed and killed the Frenchman in a tavern brawl, and fled to Germany.

Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 06, 2005, 02:09:01 PM
Around this time, Sophie, the Winter Queen's youngest child, described her sisters in detail.

Elizabeth, the younger, had black hair, a lovely complexion and brown eyes, with a long nose. Sophie teased that Elizabeth's nose was 'rather apt to turn red'. Sophie also said Elizabeth 'knew every language and science under the sun.'

Louise, Sophie said, was lively and unaffected, and 'devoted herself to painting. According to Sophie, though, Louise neglected her appearence.

Henriette was apprently the beauty, golden haired and a complexion 'without exaggeration like lillies and roses'.

Since she no longer had the English pension, Elizabeth was in dire straits for money now, and though Charles Louis had been restored to the Palatinate in 1648, it was so ravaged by the 30 Years War he could barely pay her anything.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 06, 2005, 02:09:26 PM


What did Elizabeth think of her brother's marriage to a Catholic? And what was her relation with her Catholic and extravagant mother like?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 06, 2005, 02:13:17 PM
Anne seems to have regarded neither Elizabeth nor Charles with any particular affection - she lavished attention on Henry. Still, Elizabeth was very upset when she died.

As for Henrietta Maria, she seems to have gotten on well with Elizabeth. When Henrietta accompanied her daughter to the Hague, she met Elizabeth frequently and they were on good terms.

Elizabeth was very close to her nice Mary, the Princess Royal, whom she called 'my best neece.' In fact, most people seem to think she was closer to Mary than she was to her own children . . .
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 10:33:56 AM
I just read Plowden's description of Elizabeth's death, and I think it is so moving that I will type it here (hope you all like it):

What memories crowded in on the Winter Queen as the shadows closer round her? Did she see the little girl in the palace at Linlithgow, listening enthralled to her nurses tales of her fabulous grandmother the Queen of Scots; or the schoolroom at Combe Abbey, its ordered routine disturbed by the southern alarm of the Gunpowder Plot? Was she riding again with Henry in the Surrey Woods, or standing beside her mother in the Banqueting House at Whitehall, wathcing under her lashes at the dark, good-looking boy who was to be her husband approached from the crowd? Perhaps she was back at Heidelberg, the happy-go-luck young bride out hunting all day in the hills above the castle, overspending her dress allowance and driving poor Colonel Schomberg to distraction. Or was she reliving that amazing day when she had been crowned queen in the Cathedral at Prague? It had been a very long journey uphill which was ending now with a tired old woman gasping for breath in a rented house in Leicester Fields.

Elizabeth died soon after midnight on 13 February 1662, the eve of her forty-ninth wedding anniversary.


A fitting tribute to a wonderful woman, IMHO.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 07, 2005, 10:47:54 AM

It is moving! I'd like to see those books published here in Spain!
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 10:54:41 AM
Yes, the Stuart Princesses is a jewel of a book -try amazon.co.uk or ebay, umigon and you might bag a bargain!

It's really opened my eyes to the Winter Queen - if I made a new Top 10 list of my favourite royals, she would certainly be in the running . . .

Ironically, after about 30-35 years of being virtually ignored by the ruling elite of England, when Charles II was restored to the throne everyone wanted to be the Queen of Bohemia's best friend.

Elizabeth's 'best neece' Mary, the Princess of Orange, took great pleasure in smugly informing the States General that the English Parliament had come to her brother begging him to return to England. Mary now found herself been treating very respectfully, and when Charles had a celebratory banquet in the Hague, the Queen of Bohemia occupied a place of honour next to him.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 07, 2005, 03:26:59 PM
Frederick V, the Winter King, Elizabeth's husband:

(http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/8/8d/250px-Frederick_V,_king_of_Bohemia,_Gerrit_von_Honthorst_painting_(1634).jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: palatine on September 08, 2005, 06:24:16 PM
Coming out of lurkdom...

It is far easier for her often sympathetic biographers to describe Elizabeth as spunky, funny and charming (which she was) than to admit she was also treacherous, less than politically astute, extravagant, and a dreadful mother.  

In Elizabeth's early biographies, her behavior was largely whitewashed.  It was not until the discovery of Sophia's Memoirs, and the publication of biographies of Sophia, Rupert, and the younger Elizabeth, that her behavior was questioned or re-appraised.  Unfortunately, despite the new evidence, even Elizabeth's best modern biographer, Carola Oman, continued the Victorian tradition of making excuses for the so-called Queen of Hearts, minimizing or ignoring her failures and mistakes, and usually deriding Elizabeth's children, particularly those who did not marry.

For what it's worth, I think Elizabeth should be admired for her impressive lobbying skills, and for the fact that she understood the value of good public relations, a concept her brother could never grasp.  She refused to take no for an answer when her brother King Charles refused to raise an army on her behalf, and kept herself and her children's plight before the eyes of the world by welcoming visitors to her Court at The Hague and by building up a vast network of correspondents.  "I am on show here like any Fat Lady or Dancing Bear," she once wrote to a supporter.  Unfortunately, as a mother, her best-known nickname, the Winter Queen, sums her up perfectly.

Incidentally, her sons Rupert and Maurice were not smugglers, but were in charge of a small fleet of ships that defected to the Stuart cause in 1648.  After the execution of their uncle Charles I, their cousin Charles II made Rupert his Lord High Admiral.  Rupert and Maurice led a mission to blockade an Irish port from being used as a point of entry by Cromwell, and when that proved impossible, moved on to their secondary goals of disrupting English shipping and capturing prizes to finance the exiled Stuart court, operating without a base for three years, an amazing achievement.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 09, 2005, 01:33:29 AM
Great stuff, and welcome to the forum, Madame (Monsieur?).

It does sound as if she was a naturally charming lady - even Pepys was charmed.

The adventures of Rupert and Maurice sound fascinating, was the Irish port you mentioned Kinsale? I was there a couple of summers ago, and I seem to remember reading about this in the guide book.

As with Henrietta Maria (see her thread), all these civil war characters went through ups an downs in their reputations (especially under Charles II) so it is difficult to make a fair assessment.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: umigon on September 09, 2005, 04:21:04 AM


Wow, an impressive account! Do you know more about Elizabeth's relationship with her other children? Was she really that cold?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 09, 2005, 11:37:11 AM
Welcome to the forum, palatine.  :)

Elizabeth wasn't the worst mother in the world, but she wasn't the best. And she was certainly extravagant, especially in her younger days. But I think her good points outweigh her bad ones.

Her children, of course, were certainly not saints - sometimes they seemed almost to be trying to upset their mother. Charles Louis, especially . . .
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: palatine on September 09, 2005, 07:19:24 PM
Thanks for the welcome.  

I have a certain grim respect for Elizabeth, and I don't that she was the worst mother in the world, but I don't think she was a good parent or guardian either.  At best, she held her children at arm's length, except for Karl-Ludwig, whom she adored.  Elizabeth, who was fighting for Karl-Ludwig and his restoration like a tigress, could not shut her tunnel vision off when she put her pen down for the day and the visitors were gone.  She did not understand what her favoritism was teaching Karl-Ludwig, or what it was doing to the rest of her children.  

In particular, Elizabeth did not understand that when she derided the younger Elizabeth, which she loved to do because she thought her namesake was ugly, she was making a catastrophic mistake.  The younger Elizabeth, who was fighting a terrible battle with depression, had established herself as the caretaker of the younger siblings.  While Elizabeth went to parties and plays or wrote letters, her namesake was nursing her siblings, encouraging them to study, or guarding their morals as best she could.

Additionally, through her brilliant mind, the younger Elizabeth had attracted the attention of many scholars of note, including Rene Descartes.   The younger Elizabeth, who was well aware that she was her mother's favorite target, became a rather grim and serious young woman with a remarkably logical mind, who was, as she put it, surrounded by people who were not very rational.  

The Winter Queen's contemptible behavior towards her namesake meant that some of her children refused to follow their eldest sister's often good advice, and jeered at her with their mother's approval.  Other children backed the younger Elizabeth against their mother and siblings.   The Winter Queen did not realize just how deep the divisions went, divisions she had inspired, or just how far her namesake and her supporters were willing to go if sufficiently provoked.

In time, the younger Elizabeth decided to scotch a scandal and simultaneously display her power to her bully of a mother.  At the younger Elizabeth's nod, Philip killed a man who had boasted of his "bonnes fortunes" with the Winter Queen and Louise.

I can't say that Elizabeth was responsible for everything her children did, including the murder the younger Elizabeth planned, the execution of which Philip bungled, or Karl-Ludwig's bigamy.  I do think she set up some ugly patterns of behavior that had serious ramifications as her children reached adulthood.

As for the port Rupert tried to blockade, it was indeed Kinsale.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 10, 2005, 03:44:46 AM
So Elisabeth Jr. was a mathematician, a protestant abbess and a murderess :o.

I'm interested in Karl Ludwig's marriages. Does anyone know what happened exactly. I know that Liselotte was very fond of her half-sisters. Sher wrote to them up until the end of her life. Many of her funniest and most indiscreet stories are addressed to them.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 06:11:22 AM
Charles Louis (or Karl Ludwig, whichever you prefer) married firstly Princess Charlotte of Hesse-Cassel. That marriage produced Karl II of the Palatine, Liselotte and Frederick who died young.

Karl Ludwig's second wife was Maria Luisa von Degenfeld. They had three children - Karl Ludwig, who died aged 30; Karoline Elisabeth, who married the Duke of Leinster and Mortiz, who died in 1701.

I'm afraid that's all I know, and it's not much . .  .  :-/
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: trentk80 on September 10, 2005, 02:58:52 PM
According to Sophie, Charlotte of Hesse-Kassel was hopeless and stupid. When she married Karl Ludwig, it was her own mother, Amelia Elisabeth von Hanau-Muenzenberg, who warned him of Charlotte's foul temper.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 03:03:02 PM
Thanks trentk! Where did you hear this?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: palatine on September 10, 2005, 03:35:10 PM
I don't think the younger Elizabeth should be judged too harshly for her actions.   By the standards of the day, Epinay had to be killed for his boastful talk, and the killing had to be done by one of the men of the family.  Claiming that he had slept with both women was not something Epinay could apologize for or be forgiven for in that era, and the social stigma was too great to try and let the whole thing blow over, although that was clearly the hope of the Winter Queen.  

Sadly, the only brother who was home was the teenage Philip, who was not a man of the world by anyone's standards, but one of the irrational people in his sister's life.  Elizabeth made do with what she had, and instructed Philip to pick a fight with Epinay on a pretext, a pretext that could give him the opportunity to challenge Epinay on grounds that did not bring the fair names of their mother and sister into it.  A duel would then be fought with socially prominent seconds, and Philip would thus avenge the family's honor without validating Epinay's allegations, since his family could point to the pretext as the cause of the duel.

Young Philip, alas, lost his temper, which is not surprising at his young age.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 10, 2005, 05:39:28 PM
Heehee, I am young, and do not often lose my temper, but when I do, by God!  ;D ;D ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 12, 2005, 12:07:52 PM
In the Maria Kroll book of Liselotte's letters her half-sister is named as the Raugravine Louise. This lady survived her (Liselotte's last letter is to her ). Raugrave and Raugravine were special titles invented for the children of Karl Ludwig's second marriage.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 12, 2005, 12:15:29 PM
Here they are:

1. Raugraf Karl Ludwig zu Pfalz (15-Jan-1658-1688)
2. Raugräfin Karoline Elisabeth zu Pfalz (29Dez-1659-1696) oo 1683: Meinhard, Graf v.Schomberg, Herzog v.Leinster (-1719)
3. Raugräfin Louise zu Pfalz (26-Jan-1661-1733)
4. Raugraf Ludwig zu Pfalz (19-Feb-1662-1662)
5. Raugräfin Amalia Elisabeth zu Pfalz (1-Apr-1663-1709)
6. Raugraf Georg Ludwig zu Pfalz (30-Mar-1664-1665)
7. Raugräfin Friederike zu Pfalz (7-Jul-1665-1674)
8. Raugraf Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pfalz (?-Nov-1666-1667)
9. Raugraf Karl Eduard zu Pfalz (19-Mai-1668-1690)
10. Raugräfin Sophia zu Pfalz (19-Jul-1669-1669)
11. Raugraf Karl Moritz zu Pfalz (9-Jan-1671-1702)
12. Raugraf Karl August zu Pfalz (?-Okt-1672-1691)
13. Raugraf Karl Kasimir zu Pfalz (22-Apr-1675-1691)

Liselotte wrote to Amalia Elisabeth as well, she was very upset when she died.

Karl Ludwig married a third time and had a son, but I don't think he was a Raugrave.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 12, 2005, 01:39:46 PM
Thanks bell!  :D What a strange title, a bit like 'Landgrave'. How strange it was made especially for Carl Ludwig's children . . .
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: ChristineM on September 13, 2005, 05:47:14 AM
You learn something every day - never heard of the title 'Raugraf', but it did catch my imagination.

According to Wikipedia - a Raugraf or Raugrave only  held jurisidiction of waste ground and uninhabited districts.   The title - since 1667 - was used exclusively by the children of the Elector Palatine Karl I's bigamous second marriage and Karl's wife, Marie Louise.

tsaria
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: trentk80 on September 15, 2005, 09:31:40 PM
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Thanks trentk! Where did you hear this?


Sorry for the delay, Prince. I read it in a website, but right now I don't remember which one.  :-/
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 16, 2005, 11:54:42 AM
Oh, don't worry - I have an awful memory too . . .  ::)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 28, 2005, 04:05:35 PM
I just found this pic, which I have never seen before, listed as 'The Princess Royal, daughter of James I'. It must be Elizabeth, though she was never Princess Royal.

(http://www.tudor-portraits.com/PrincessRoyal.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 29, 2005, 06:47:06 AM
she looks slightly extra-terrestrial in this one :o.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Marc on September 29, 2005, 07:29:09 AM
Are there any pictures of their children?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 29, 2005, 11:19:32 AM
Do you mean Elizabeth and Frederick's children, Marc?
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: palatine on September 30, 2005, 08:50:07 PM
There are pictures of the Winter Queen, the younger Elizabeth, Karl-Ludwig, Rupert, and Sophia that can be found at:

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/index.asp

There is also a portrait of Lord Craven at the site that was painted by Louise, as well as many portraits of the Stuart family.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Modena on November 05, 2005, 05:22:50 PM
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Anne seems to have regarded neither Elizabeth nor Charles with any particular affection - she lavished attention on Henry. Still, Elizabeth was very upset when she died.

As for Henrietta Maria, she seems to have gotten on well with Elizabeth. When Henrietta accompanied her daughter to the Hague, she met Elizabeth frequently and they were on good terms.

Elizabeth was very close to her nice Mary, the Princess Royal, whom she called 'my best neece.' In fact, most people seem to think she was closer to Mary than she was to her own children . . .


She also had a favourite nephew, James, Duke of York. She apparently called him "Tint", though I don't know why.  :-*
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 05, 2005, 05:24:36 PM
Royal nicknames are almost always inexplicable.  ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen
Post by: Modena on November 05, 2005, 06:08:46 PM
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Royal nicknames are almost always inexplicable.  ;D


LOL!! ;D

maybe it was because he wasn't a natural blond?  :-/ :-* ;D