Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna => Topic started by: TampaBay on September 05, 2005, 01:58:20 PM

Title: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on September 05, 2005, 01:58:20 PM
What was the problem here?  

I have read in several places that Ella loved children.  I have read she was very close to Felix & Dimitri both as children and young adults.

Why could she not mother or get on with her ward Marie Pavlovna The Younger?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on September 05, 2005, 02:48:35 PM
Three words:

CLASH OF PERSONALITIES.

Sike, perhaps blue can elaborate after all she wrote the book on it.  ;D

From childhood Maria had resented being separated from her father and the fact that Ella and Sergei had basically become her new parents. We all know Ella and Sergei treated Maria and Dimitri very well and loved them deeply. However, I think as the eldest child she alsmost felt that it was her duty to resent Ella in a way. Pehaps with her father gone and off with a new family of his own, she felt that she was the only one who was going to carry on the memory of her dead mother, whom she of course never knew.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 05, 2005, 06:02:56 PM
Thanks, Prince Eddy!   ;D

I think that Maria was a very difficult child and since she loved her father she could not blame him for his disappearance so shifted her resentment to Ella. At the same time, their personalities were so opposed. To Ella, like her mother, duty went hand-in-hand with royal status. Paul had, in her eyes, neglected his duty and her antipathy towards him after that would have been perceived by any child. Maria always comes across as a sulky character and I am very suspicious of her account of the 'cold hard look' in Ella's eyes when Maria kissed the back of her neck - it was probably shock if anything! It must have been so difficult for Ella, since Serge had made all the decisions about the children, and I agree that Ella pushed Maria into marriage too quickly - but in Ella's favour, it must be said that at first Maria had been eager to marry and - again like her mother - Ella seemed quite intolerant of indecision and shilly-shallying. (And, it must be remembered that Ella was unwell at the time of Maria's engagement so any shortness of temper can be excused.) I do feel that it would have been better though, if after Serge's death, Maria had been encouraged to go to her father in Paris. Ella put her off the idea probably because she felt she had to honour Serge's wishes. (That's just what I think anway!)

I am also suspicious of Maria's accounts of Ella's unkindness and lack of affection because so many other children delighted in her company and she went out of her way to make them happy, give them treats, play games with them etc. etc.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on September 05, 2005, 06:28:08 PM
Blue,

Please clairfy the following statments:

Ella, Serge, Alexandra & Paul were all very close.  Almost as close as brothers and sisters and spent alot of time together for the two years from A&P's marriage to Alexandra's death. True or False.

MF & N II were very close to Dimirti but not to Maria Pavlovna-The Younger. True or False.

Maria Pavlovna-The Younger had a confused sense of indentity.  She perferred the company and freedom of commoners but would retreat back into her imperial shell if she felt threatened. True or False.

Maria Pavlovna-The Younger was one woman who should have married a man 20-25 years older than she because she was always searching for a father figure-husband.  Her life would have been different if Serge had lived becaause she was "the daughter he never had". True or False.

I believe I have left enough food for thought.,discussion & debate!

Chime on in with your comments, perspective, thoughts & views.

TampaBay

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on September 05, 2005, 06:30:19 PM
I agree with you blue about Maria's accounts of unkindness on Ella's part being imbelished or possibly even untrue. I dont think that Ella and Sergei ever thought of Maria and Dimitri as anything but "gifts" in themselves, which had basically fallen into their laps. I mean they never saw the children as a burden, at least when they were young. Therefore there would have been no reason for them to treat the children with anything but absolute kindness. After all they had been denied the pleasure of having children and Maria and Dimitri were like their second chance. Both Ella and Sergei seem to have been great "foster" parents. Maria's claims of Ella's coldness were probably made out of spite as Maria is the one who has always seemed a little bit cold to me.  
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 05, 2005, 06:35:58 PM
What a lot of questions!!

Yes, true I think they were very close indeed and I believe that because they were so close Pavel's 'betrayal' was all the harder to take for both Ella & Serge.

After Serge's death, Dmitri spent a great deal of time with Nicholas and so they became very close.  Maria stayed with Ella in Moscow until her marriage (only 3 years after Serge's death) so she probably wouldn't have been so close. (I don't know about their relationship with MF)

I don't know about MP/s confused sense of identity but I doubt she would have been any happier if Serge had lived. He wasn't a man she could be close to as, I think, Pavel was. She says she was a little afraid of him and he was certainly extremely strict in her upbringing and in his refusal to allow her to spend time with her father...I can't imagine really how he could relate to an adolescent girl though he may have been better with Dmitri (though Felix didn't take to Serge & Felix & Dmitri were close friends so... :-/)

It'd be interesting to hear what other people think....



Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on September 05, 2005, 06:39:43 PM
Quote
Maria Pavlovna-The Younger was one woman who should have married a man 20-25 years older than she because she was always searching for a father figure-husband.  Her life would have been different if Serge had lived becaause she was "the daughter he never had". True or False.



Oh I think she would definaltly have been very close to Sergei as a young women, had he lived. She probably got along good with males and actually to me she seems to have many qualities more befitting to a man. She did need a father figure in her life. Her marriage with Willem may have failed, for among many reasons, the fact that he did not have a very strong character/personality.

Basically she seems a little rough around the edges were Ella was a soft feminine character. This goes back to their differeing personalities.

Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: crazy_wing on September 06, 2005, 03:28:47 AM
Quote
Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.


I was thinking maybe Sergei was trying to protect his niece and nephew from knowing that their father had started a new family and was happy with his new family?  I read that as a little child, Sergei tried to hide from Paul that their father had a mistress.

Another question, why did Ella choose a Swedish prince for Maria?  (because sweden was closed to Russia?)  Did Maria have any other choices?  
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 06, 2005, 10:45:12 AM
Quote
Oh I think she would definaltly have been very close to Sergei as a young women, had he lived. She probably got along good with males and actually to me she seems to have many qualities more befitting to a man.


What an interesting thought. I agree that Maria did seem quite 'manly' in some ways, I just couldn't really imagine Serge becoming close to a young girl...but then, he had enjoyed a happy relationship with Alix, hadn't he, so perhaps you are right.  :)

Quote

Although blue is on to somthing about Sergei being harder to get closer to than her father. I tend to think that there was a logical reason why Sergei did not allow the children to see Pavel. Perhaps he figured his younger brother had failed at being a good or adequate father and being strict did not think he deserved a second chance at it. ???.



I think that Serge intended to act from the highest motives but I think beneath these motives lay the resentment that Pavel had let him down so badly and in response (without intending to be deliberately cruel) he seized his chance of gaining the children he had always wanted.
I expect that Serge himself would have defended all his actions and genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing - but had he examined his unconscious motives, I suspect it was rather a punishment for Pavel and a way of filling a need in his own life.
 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on September 08, 2005, 10:10:07 AM
Does anyone know how much "time" Wilhelm of Sweeden & MP spent together before they agreed to marry?  It seemd strange becuase Wilhelm came from a loving a family and this is exactly what on would expect MP needed.  She was close to the King of Sweeden was she not?

When did Wilhelm of Sweeden die?  How did he feel about MP leaving him?  Did he leave any memiors?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 08, 2005, 10:54:06 AM
MP & William had met on only a couple of occasions before their engagement though his mother was Ella's childhood friend Victoria of Baden. Someone else will probably have more details but I believe the King of Sweden was initially very reluctant to accept the divorce & it was only when Maria became seriously ill, that he gave way.

I feel sorry for William - Maria was very disloyal to him.  
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: crazy_wing on September 08, 2005, 01:45:46 PM
I find it interesting that Elisabeth was considered for a Swedish prince and Victoria of Baden's brother Fritz.  She rejected them both and picked Sergei.  Then, she packed her niece off to Sweden, the traditional enemy of Russia...  

It was said that Maria Pavlovna only loved 1 person genuinely and that was her brother (they were buried together).  
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on September 08, 2005, 02:45:39 PM
Quote
I feel sorry for William - Maria was very disloyal to him.  


In what way was hse disloyal?

MP had very little luck in matrimony.  From what I have read, her second marriage was a disaster too.

Did Wilhelm re-marry?  Did he raise their son?

TampaBay.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 09, 2005, 10:25:32 AM
Quote

In what way was hse disloyal?

MP had very little luck in matrimony.  From what I have read, her second marriage was a disaster too.

Did Wilhelm re-marry?  Did he raise their son?


She allegedly told their son details about his father's 'lack of skill' which I doubt a son wishes to know!
I think he did raise their son, abut I don't think he remarried.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 09, 2005, 03:22:16 PM
William had a Mistress Jeanne de Tramcourt. I'm not sure what year they becamed Lovers? Maybe after Marie left or jouring the marriage?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Angie_H on September 13, 2005, 03:39:01 PM
My father once said that people have different faces that they show. You'll see someone at work, but they can be/act totally different in their home or in some other situation. Many have described Ella as a loving person towards children, but then again, how do those people know what she was like when it was just her, Serge, Maria & Dmitri?
Another thing to wonder about. Did taking care of Marie & her brother constantly remind her that she had no children of her own? I always wondered about that. There was nothing physically wrong with Ella was there that she was not able to have them?
One more think to wonder. Did Dmitri ever say whether Maria's description of Ella was accurate? Did he ever describe Ella in the same way too?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on September 13, 2005, 04:20:14 PM
Dmitri seemed to be very fond of Ella. After Serge's death - at least according to a letter from Ella to Nicholas - Dmitiri's biggest fear was that he should be parted from her as he wished to take care of her now that his uncle was no longer alive to do so. His later behaviour towards her seems to bear out the truth of this.

It may well be that the presence of M & D in the house reminded her that she did not have children, but she does not seem such a narrow character as to take her own disappointment out on them. Moreover, many people who do not have children of their own, delight in the company of their nieces & nephews....It is my opinion that Maria and Ella just didn't 'hit it off' and for the most part this was due to Maria's inability to get over her father's absence, for which she blamed Ella & Serge.    
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 01, 2005, 03:28:37 AM
Photos of Ella with her children and of Maria and Dmitrij

Maschka and Dimka
(http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/888/mpmitdimka5lt.th.jpg) (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mpmitdimka5lt.jpg)

Sergej Alexandrowitsch with Maria and Dmitrij
(http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/6126/oaf12752lo.th.jpg) (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf12752lo.jpg)

Maria and Dmitrij
(http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/9853/oaf12836xx.th.jpg) (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oaf12836xx.jpg)

Ella with Maria and her Husband, 1908
(http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5876/19085pk.th.jpg) (http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19085pk.jpg)

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: bluetoria on November 01, 2005, 09:53:15 AM
Thank you for the pictures! Do you know when the one with Serge was taken please? He looks gentler on that than on any other picture of which I have seen him.

Dmitri doesn't look too happy though!!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on November 01, 2005, 10:31:19 AM
Quote
Thank you for the pictures! Do you know when the one with Serge was taken please? He looks gentler on that than on any other picture of which I have seen him.

Dmitri doesn't look too happy though!!


I dont know when it was taken, sorry. It is from a book, i have, but there is no year...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: taffie on December 13, 2005, 07:53:16 PM
I favorite book of all time is Marie, Education of  Princess 1931 Viking Press.  It's a story of survival and empowerment and I think would make a awsome movie.  The pictures sent I've never seen before.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: calebGmoney on January 02, 2006, 12:21:09 AM
Is it just me, or did Dimitri always have huge circles under his eyes?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 02, 2006, 05:13:54 AM
Actually Dmitriy had such circles all his life. His health was never good.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: aleksandra on January 03, 2006, 04:55:16 PM
He was a pretty baby at least. How sick was Dimitri ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2006, 08:23:22 PM
Half of it he was born with, another was due to his fast living. Friends like Felix Yussopov do not help.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 04, 2006, 03:27:17 AM
He had problems with his lungs.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 08, 2006, 07:51:54 AM
Does anyone have a better version of this photo?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DSCN3700.jpg

GDss Ella, her sister Irene of Prussia, Gdss Maria P.-younger, her fiance Wilhelm and GD Dmitry.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on January 08, 2006, 01:40:35 PM
Me too!  :)

Are you sure it's Irene though, it looks more like Victoria Miford-Haven? It's the eyes.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2006, 08:04:51 PM
Yes...I thought so too. Although the timing fits. Remember Irene forced Marie to marry Wilhelm while Ella had her operation. All the cast seemed to be here. Ella still looked beautiful, even in her widow weeds.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 09, 2006, 02:05:14 AM
I myself at a loss : who is that - Irene or VMH? The caption says "Irene" but a woman looks like VMH  :). Interestingly enough that you  don't find out the photo in any bio on GD Ella or GD Maria-younger or on the Romanovs on the whole... ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 09, 2006, 02:55:30 AM
Well, I have glanced down the 1st book of Maria Pavlovna's memoires and found out that VMH had been at Moscow at the time of Maria's engagement! So that Princess is VMH not Irene.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2006, 04:17:13 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpdog.jpg)

The same sitting that Zarevna_Olga posted (another pose)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpdpy.jpg)

Dnitry and Maria with OTM –Grand Duchesses Olga, Tatiana and Maria

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/MP/mpdpotm.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2006, 12:06:30 PM
Marie was the big sister figure to Alicky's children, especially Olga and Tatiana. Who apart from her, had only Princess Irina (Xenia's daughter) as a playmate.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on July 30, 2006, 03:53:19 AM
I think it is a Russian book ?

Yes, the Russian bio on Maria Pavlovna.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 22, 2006, 10:33:26 AM
The last post is pretty true.Ella didn't have children, but I don't think she resented it too much. She had an opportunity to raise children after all, that were closely related to her husband through circumstances that she was lucky to have. She may have just clashed with Marie P. over personalities. They seem to have been different people, and didn't understamd each other that well. And that doesn't mean she didn't love children, nor that she may have been cold at times in reality to Marie P. She was human, after all. Marie was a rather hard character to figure out; she was interesting, if you read her book you know that. But she may not have been very happy, as for instance in her marriages. Ella wasn't sometimes happy either, but found different ways of dealing with it.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2006, 08:45:52 AM
I kinda of thought that Marie P was a bit spoiled by everyone who was sorry for her. Greek Minny wrote in her bio that Marie P could be wilful and selfish at times and that neither ( Marie and Ella) understood the other.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on September 23, 2006, 02:37:16 PM
Well lets see here;  Her mother dide when she was less than two years old and then her father "left" her with an aunt and uncle to re-marry and start a new life and family with his second wife.  I could see how this chain of evemnts could cause smeone to get messed up in the head.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2006, 07:34:11 PM
Yes...A father who left his responsibility and ran off with his mistress. However Marie P never blamed him and put the blame on Ella. Quite unfair...Fortunately Dimitri did not share his sister's dislike of his Aunt.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 24, 2006, 04:56:44 AM
However Marie P never blamed him and put the blame on Ella. Quite unfair...Fortunately Dimitri did not share his sister's dislike of his Aunt.  :(

Maria put the blame firstly on GD Sergey most probably.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2006, 09:39:24 AM
No she did not...That is why I felt Marie was a bit unfair to Ella. She let her irresponsible father and mistress off scot free.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 24, 2006, 01:20:15 PM
No she did not...

You can't know exactly. You never knew Ella or Maria or Sergey. We all never knew them, we just can suppose. And I guess that Maria blamed fristly Sergey.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on September 24, 2006, 01:23:26 PM
I got the impression from her memoirs that Marie blamed Serge because he was possessive of them and thus didn't want Paul to be allowed to reclaim his rights over them. She did seem to let Paul 'off the hook' but that could the romanticizing of a father figure by a young girl.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 24, 2006, 01:26:51 PM
I got the impression from her memoirs that Marie blamed Serge because he was possessive of them and thus didn't want Paul to be allowed to reclaim his rights over them.

I got the same impression. :)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 24, 2006, 07:27:35 PM
Marie Pavlovna's early life wasn't easy, and I am sure that she  may well have been messed up there, or experienced some conflicts at the very least. Unhappy childhoods either make you stronger, or mess you up, and either way they make you wiser than you would otherwise have been, I think. Sometimes you might seem strong, in spite of your childhood, but underneath things aren't so fine. There are limits to strength, even in being a survivor of an unhappy childhood. That is something to be considered when thinking about  Marie Pavlovna.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2006, 09:00:04 PM
Well I also tend to think that her Aunt & Uncles felt sorry for her had overcompensate for her lack of a normal family. The Empress was known to be fond of Dimitri, but I didn't get the same impression of her for Marie P.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 25, 2006, 08:22:52 AM
You are right, I think. Marie P. was not perhaps thought of well by some members of her own family. She did not have the easy charm of her brother, but rather a more difficult personality. With his charm, it was easy to be amiable with all members of his family. Marie P.seems to have caused more reservations in people, because of her personality. I think this was true for many, not just for Ella.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on September 25, 2006, 10:09:42 AM
MP always struck me as not knowing where to belong. Unlike Dmitri, she had time to bond to her father and perhaps have the vaguest memories of their mother. They were certainly Romanovs but they didn't live with their father but their aunt and uncle. Perhaps if Paul had died it may have been easier for her in some ways but knowing he was alive and living with a new family, she couldn't bond to him nor fully commit to Serge and Ella. She doesn't seem to have had much of a connection to her Greek/Danish relatives--we rarely seen any photos of her with those relatives but she also doesn't seem to have spent much time with Ella's Hessian relatives either. She may have hoped for a 'real' family when she married William but didn't bond with her new Swedish family either. Her bond with her son, Lennart, was a tension-filled, on-and-off one. The only real, sustained connection she seems to have had, uncluttered by other issues, is with Dmitri.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2006, 10:39:12 AM
You are absolutely right ! Marie P seemed to have problems bonding with people and gave up fairly quickly and move on to another. It was as if a kind of restlessness existed in her pyche. She was lucky to have people who bailed her out in her later years.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 25, 2006, 11:43:54 AM
Very true, perhaps some of that or all of that came from her childhood, as well as essential personality? I think she was difficult in personality, but it was worse when she never knew a real family, and had a well meaning upbringing, but one that was essentially fractured. She was an true Romanov woman, very interesting from reading her memoirs, as I have. But she seems to have put people off- perhaps Dmitri coped with his childhood better, as well as personality differences?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2006, 08:48:38 PM
Dimitri was more easy going than Marie P, so he was generally more popular in the family.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 26, 2006, 10:23:56 AM
Yes, that is the most basic reason he was more popular with the family. Marie P.'s personality was equally interesting, but much more difficult.Were there any other reasons he was more popular with the family, other than he took things easier than she did?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2006, 11:06:06 AM
He did..while Marie P was confused and didn't know what she wanted and blaming others. Not a very attractive picture I think.  >:(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 26, 2006, 11:44:03 AM
It isn't a very attractive picture, but perhaps it is an understandable one? Marie did have to endure much in the way of family sitiuation in her youth. It didn't help that she was difficult in personality, either. She lost people who could have supported her because of the way she was, and one wonders if she knew it, at all. Perhaps Ella tried to understand her, but could not? After all, it seems Marie P. was not very easy to understand.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2006, 09:24:53 PM
She was lucky that she had her Swedish in-laws and her son to bail her out in later life.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 27, 2006, 08:44:57 AM
Yes, I think so. But she was never really nice to them either, was she? Or at least they had their moments. ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2006, 10:38:10 AM
I heard her ex-father-in-law was fond of Marie P.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 27, 2006, 11:46:35 AM
Really? Well, at least someone was. Most people seemed rather put off by Grand Duchess Marie P.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2006, 10:34:57 PM
I think she was quite into herself, as her Aunt Greek Minny called her "wilful" and "selfish" at times...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 10:35:14 AM
Yes, I did get the impression reading her memoirs that Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna was quite into herself. She was an interesting person, but thinking only of yourself isn't a good trait. ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 28, 2006, 11:44:27 AM
She was an interesting person, but thinking only of yourself isn't a good trait. ;)

It was her way of life, how can we judge now what was really happenning? She was selfish but a very brave woman and quite a character not like many dull Royalties.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 11:54:45 AM
The fact that none of her relationship last...She end up a bitter woman that fortunately was not abandoned by her son and her ex-in-laws during her sunset years... >:(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 11:54:55 AM
She was, I am not trying to judge her. We can't really do that with many characters in history due to the fact that it can, at times, become quite subjective. Marie P., carved a life out for herself after the Revolution that was interesting, and she tried. I have always thought that is to be admired- she didn't just give up, or something- she tried. She was certainly not dull, nor was that branch of the Romanov family ( the children of Grand Duke Paul).
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 11:55:54 AM
To reply to Eric_Lowe- yes, her personality aliented people at times. It reminds me of Ducky, but I admire Ducky more.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 12:03:34 PM
I admire Ducky, she was a tragic heroine...Marie P was a pest ! She owed her good fortunate of marrying into the Swedish Royal family to Ella, but instead of being grateful, she blamed her Aunt for forcing her into a loveless marriage. A spoiled brat (my own view personally) really !  >:(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on September 28, 2006, 12:12:34 PM
Well, I don't think she was a spoiled brat; I mean, her youth and childhood explains much away in my view, even if it doesn't justify it as much. She was quite into herself, but that doesn't make her a bad person. Perhaps she wasn't that thoughtful, really, and didn't ever do enough thinking to straighten things out. She wasn't introspective, I think she was very much of life in the here and now, for whatever reason. At any rate, I find her very interesting.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 12:14:40 PM
She was selfish and made mistakes in her life, but instead of being responsible, she blamed others for her misfortunate. If that was not exactly bad it was immature at least.  >:(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 28, 2006, 01:44:32 PM
She was selfish and made mistakes in her life, but instead of being responsible, she blamed others for her misfortunate. If that was not exactly bad it was immature at least.  >:(

If you read her memoirs carefully you see that she blamed herself too.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2006, 09:45:41 PM
Hindsight I guess...but still she did made a mess of her life.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 29, 2006, 02:04:40 AM
Hindsight I guess...but still she did made a mess of her life.  ???

I guess in HER opinion HER life was not a mess, that was just her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 02, 2006, 12:02:21 PM
I think Marie P, did indeed enjoy the ride. I think she might have blamed others, but then perhaps she with only her view of herself could only see other's contributions to her misfortune, real or not, and not her own. I am sure she never thought of her life as a mess; actually, I am not sure if I think of it that way either.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2006, 10:07:00 PM
Indeed...She had others to pick up the pieces for her.  :o
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 03, 2006, 11:07:52 AM
She did; but in her status didn't she expect them to? I don't think she ever totally thought of being responsible for herself or to herself. I think that concept would have been alien to her, and rather understandbly so.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2006, 11:10:52 AM
Thank God she had relations that cared for her, otherwise she could have end up a bag lady... :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 03, 2006, 11:33:54 AM
Yes, indeed! I still think Grand Duchess Marie P, was a very interesting woman, although she may have been hard to live with.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2006, 08:26:18 PM
I think although she was reputed to be close to her brother, I did not seem them close in later life.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 03, 2006, 10:03:31 PM
Thank God she had relations that cared for her, otherwise she could have end up a bag lady... :(

Do you really think so? I always found that MP, like Olga A, was one of the few Romanovs who tried to not wallow in the past but pick up and go. She went to work, founded her own business and employed many Russian emigres, including her Putiatin in-laws. While she still ended up without a good deal of money and depended on her son, that wasn't unusual, and she at least attempted to make a living on her own. Didn't she also send her jewels out of Russia or were they there prior to the war? She at least ended up with something to sell.

I don't find her a warm personality at all and never much cared for her, but I don't think it's really fair to say that she would've ended up a bag lady without her relations. That could be levelled at many others before her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2006, 10:12:29 PM
I based my obsevations by the fact she burned most of her bridges by the time she was growing old...Dimitri, Wilhelm, Coco, her other husbands...Sandro...The list of casulties is long.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 04, 2006, 08:26:12 AM
She did alienate many, you are right. I think she tried to make her way in the future, but always got stuck because she perhaps never let the past go enough, or maybe her personal relationships just didn't flourish. She was defintely forward looking, but she was rather impractical, not that you can blame her. Certainly not a warm personality, but still an interesting one, even if it is rather in a cold way.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 11:23:40 AM
I think of her life a study in failure.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 04, 2006, 11:52:19 AM
I don't think her life was a failure. She tried, obviously things didn't work out in a practical sense. As well, her personal relationships often became burned bridges behind her, due to her personality and circumstances. Both can be seen as failures, I suppose. But she, herself, as a person was never a failure in my view.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 11:53:41 AM
Well...compared with her cousins Helene and Olga A , she sure seemed like one.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 04, 2006, 12:01:49 PM
Well, yes, but they were different people who coped with what happened to them in different ways given their personalities. It doesn't really matter about what they did in comparison to her. I would judge her by what she in her circumstances, and with her personality. Was that failure or not? In some ways, yes, in some not. Her cousins were perhaps stronger people than she.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 12:05:20 PM
I agree her personality and temperment were some of the reasons for her failure.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 04, 2006, 01:08:51 PM
Well, like Ducky, had her temprament been different, her life might have turned out better. But she faced her destiny, and I think was pretty practical and matter of fact. I don't think she disengaged from the world that much, I think she always tried life anyway, even if it was hard.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2006, 08:41:22 PM
She was born a royal, but could not adapt to civilian life.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 05, 2006, 10:39:51 AM
That is true. She ws always very Imperial, very Romanov. Perhaps with her nature, which was very much of Russia, and the Romanovs, that was the reason she was so unhappy in Sweden ( among other reasons, of course)? She was a true royal.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2006, 10:17:40 PM
I think Marie P had a restless nature. She did not seemed to be content with her lot.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 06, 2006, 08:54:32 AM
That is true, she was never content. Even if the Revolution had never happened, and she had lived the life she as more suited for, and used to, one wonders if she would have been happy/content. She had reasons to be unhappy though, that is also true. It wasn't just like she was taking her reasons for not being content or happy out of the blue.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2006, 10:05:20 AM
I think restless was in her soul, she didn't settle for boring that's for sure.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 06, 2006, 10:19:41 AM
Yes, Grand Duchess Marie P was restless in her soul. No doubt she was a bit restless in day to day life as well. She never settled for boring, but she was never happy. She didn't understand people, abd her aunt did so well.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2006, 10:32:49 PM
Yes...I think Ella did her a great service by setting her up with the Swedish Royal Family. It was this association that helped her during her dark days later on.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 09, 2006, 08:33:44 AM
She didn't think of it as a great service at the time, and wasn't happy in Sweden. But you are right, it later became more of a blessing. Marie P. later really held Sweden and her arranged marriage against Ella. But it may well have been a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2006, 09:09:27 PM
Indeed...I think she did not dislike Wilhelm. However Marie P was not one who settle for less, I doubt very much Ella would have forced her to marry had she put up a fight against it.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 10, 2006, 11:01:19 AM
That is possible..In her memoirs, Marie P. makes the marriage sound very cut and dried, and there ws nothing she could do about it. That may not be the whole truth, though, knowing Marie P.  ;) It's also been awhile since I read that book, but Marie sounds bitter at times in it.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2006, 04:07:03 AM
Yes...in the book, when she tried to chicken out. Irene put a stop to it, and told her the schock will kill Ella (who was just recovering from an operation).  :P
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2006, 08:28:07 AM
I don't think Marie P. wanted that marriage, although it might have proved best in the end. Realistically, what were her other options then? Did she wish to stay in Russia or not? She certainly seemed more at home there, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 11, 2006, 03:00:52 PM
A lot of it could be MP's bitter recollections. There were some letters quoted--I forget whether in a book on her or one of Charlotte Zeepvat's writings--were she was quite affectionate towards him and happy. There have also been letters from Olga A writing towards her first husband that way. Perhaps they weren't 'shoved' into the marriages but rather they soured later (and fairly quickly) and that colored their recollections later on.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2006, 05:16:23 PM
That could well be true. Undoubtedly, bitterness was something that coloured her memoirs. She seems like she was something of a bitter person, one way or the other. Looking back on things, she could perhaps be even more bitter had things not worked out. We have already discussed this aspect of her memories of Ella being cold her, etc. But, you are right, it could work this way in respect to her marriage as well. But she doesn't seem to have been happy in Sweden, whatever her feelings for her husband.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 12, 2006, 02:31:27 AM
A lot of it could be MP's bitter recollections. There were some letters quoted--I forget whether in a book on her or one of Charlotte Zeepvat's writings--were she was quite affectionate towards him and happy. There have also been letters from Olga A writing towards her first husband that way. Perhaps they weren't 'shoved' into the marriages but rather they soured later (and fairly quickly) and that colored their recollections later on.

There are Some quotes of Maria P. letters to Wilhelm in the Russian bio on her. And she really sounds like in love with Wilhelm in those letters. Where's truth - who knows.. .Possibly she tried to convince herself she was in love. :-\
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 12, 2006, 04:04:26 AM
I don't think that the marriage was forced. I believe they "were" in love in Russia, but married life in a foreign court was not for Marie P (not to argue she became a mother too soon- herself still immature and willful).
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 12, 2006, 10:36:12 AM
Well, yes, I think the issue might have been the fact she had to live in very different and unfamiliar Sweden, and not that she didn't have some feelings for her husband at first. She was no doubt bitter in recollection, although most things in life soured for her. What were her husband's feelings about their marriage? No doubt, I know, but I can't remember. ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 13, 2006, 12:46:36 AM
I don't think that the marriage was forced. I believe they "were" in love in Russia, but married life in a foreign court was not for Marie P (not to argue she became a mother too soon- herself still immature and willful).

As usual you THINK and BELIEVE as if they were your close friends. Or do you really believe in every word of their correspondence?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2006, 02:39:50 AM
I think I based what I believe on the evidence presented like the letters written, memoirs to come with my "own" conclusiions. You may be permitted not to agree with what I think. Why do you seemed to be hostile ???  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 13, 2006, 06:35:40 AM
I think I based what I believe on the evidence presented like the letters written, memoirs to come with my "own" conclusiions. You may be permitted not to agree with what I think. Why do you seemed to be hostile ???  ???

I am not hostile Eric. But when looking at the words such as  "think","believe" and "sure" regarding to Royalties who were enigma's in fact (even if they left us some sources of their private life) I simply can't keep silence. :) If we want to have a serious discussion when we can hypothesize and tried to find out real facts but speculating is for other threads.
As for evidence...- what evidence if speaking about MP's letters? Have you read them? I read 2 or 3 letters from the Russian bio on her. She sounds like in love...but the words are somewhat false  as if she tried to convince herself in her love to Prince. And btw have anybody ever passed by a source of some contemporary of Maria (not  a Romanov) where were words about visible love  between Maria and Wilhelm?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 13, 2006, 08:41:17 AM
I think Marie and Wilhelm were not passionately in love. I don't think there is any evience of that in letters, or history as remembered and recorded. Later, Marie was to remember their marriage as unhappy, and she defintely wasn't in love. Bitterness could have coloured her recollections, certainly.But perhaps there wasn't much to go on orignally. Their marriage may not have been forced, nor a love match, perhaps it was a marriage simply ok at the time, that later wasn't so great. It strikes me that way, and many royal marriages were so. Most of them didn't up in divorce/annullment though.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2006, 08:59:47 PM
I tend to agree with you that it was an okay arragement, which is true about most of the royal marriages at the time. As long as there is not fierce dislike on either side... ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 16, 2006, 10:02:59 AM
Well, Marie P, later came to dislike him. He seems to have not come to dislike her, as far as I know. Royal marriages of that time were often just okay, and as long as both partners accepted that, it worked. It was when they didn't (which was rare,) that trouble came. Yet in some ways, these dynastic marriages worked very well. They often served the best interest of the country, more than a love match could have.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 11:05:01 AM
I think apart from Olga A, Marie P was the first Romanov to divorce (the closest situation I can think of was Grand Duke Constantine (brother of Tsars Alexander I and Nicholas I) and his Saxe-Coburg wife). 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 16, 2006, 04:19:21 PM
Yes, Grand Duke Constantine and Princess Juliana of Saxe-Coburg (who took the name Anna Feodorovna) divorced in 1820. She was the aunt of Queen Victoria (sister of the Duchess of Kent) and her treatment helped form the basis of much of Queen Victoria's antipathy towards the Romanovs and their suitability as spouses.

Marie would divorce William in 1914 and her second husband, Prince Poutiatine in 1924.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2006, 08:30:32 PM
I honestly (personally) do not think Marie P was either wife or mother material.  :P
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 17, 2006, 02:59:32 AM
(http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4333/rr4455jt0.th.jpg) (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rr4455jt0.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 17, 2006, 03:01:00 AM
Maria and Dmitrij - tea time!

(http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7899/ddoodd4.th.jpg) (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ddoodd4.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 17, 2006, 03:02:01 AM
sweet Maria Pavlovna

(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7185/sxderfpl7.th.jpg) (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sxderfpl7.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 17, 2006, 07:49:23 AM
I think you are right that Marie P. was not really the sort of person to make a good wife and mother. She was too self centered, and concerned with herself to really be good at either one. Both her marriages ended unhappily, and her role as mother was not of the best. That supports that viewpoint.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 17, 2006, 11:22:13 AM
Dmitrij
(http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/230/rt5tg7.th.jpg) (http://img419.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rt5tg7.jpg)

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 17, 2006, 11:24:06 AM
little Maria

(http://img304.imageshack.us/img304/1/445rtupc1.th.jpg) (http://img304.imageshack.us/my.php?image=445rtupc1.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 19, 2006, 02:37:38 AM
I wonder what relationship Marie P had with Princess Paley, her stepmother ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 19, 2006, 02:38:58 AM
However it seemed Prince Lennart, her son was a dutiful son to Marie P.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 19, 2006, 06:40:39 AM
She wrote well of her in her memoirs--and she didn't spare people so I guess she was at least fond of her if not especially close. She also seems to have loved her half-siblings.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 19, 2006, 10:37:25 AM
I think Marie's son was a dutiful son to her. The truth is though, that was not she something of a distant mother, given her personality?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 19, 2006, 11:48:02 AM
But Princess Paley herself in her own memoirs mentions Maria P. only once and without emotion, that's quite interesting.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 19, 2006, 04:19:17 PM
Marie tended to romanticize her father, perhaps this spilled over towards how she described Princess Paley? She might not have wanted to say anything negative, almost as if it would be criticizing her late father.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 19, 2006, 04:21:22 PM
She was a distant mother both emotionally and physically. It was not an easy relationship by any means though Lennart so to it that she was helped out and both she and Dmitri are buried on Lennart's island of Mainau.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2006, 11:49:05 PM
He was a dutiful son. Although Marie P's unstable lifestyle did affect Lennart. He too became a rebel in the area of marriage (which he did a few times too).  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 20, 2006, 11:51:32 PM
I don't think they got along (Marie P & Princess Paley).  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 22, 2006, 07:15:29 PM
Yes, I have read of the life of her son Lennart. From reading of his life, I tend to agree with you. I think it woulld have been hard for anyone who was like Grand Duchess Marie P not to affect her son in this way.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 22, 2006, 07:18:50 PM
I have always been interested in what relationship there was between Marie P and her stepmother and half siblings. I tend to agree that Marie P did romanticize her father; she never really liked that she was raised by Ella and Sergei and instead prefered her parent who wasn't there, because it was easier to think good of him if he wasn't there.The truth might have been more complex than her romanticism about her father.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2006, 08:39:28 PM
Yes...Although in truth Marie P would have an even harder childhood had she & Dimitri was allowed to live with his father and stepmother.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2006, 08:43:06 PM
Yes...even though he was raised by his father and close to his grandmother (Victoria of Baden). His mother's life affected him and he followed her example to be a royal rebel. yet unlike Marie P, he is a more stable financial backing.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 23, 2006, 10:10:06 AM
Yes...Although in truth Marie P would have an even harder childhood had she & Dimitri was allowed to live with his father and stepmother.  ::)

Point at ussue I'd say. Possibly for her it would have been a happier childhood.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2006, 10:15:07 PM
Don't think so, as one said. Princess Paley wrote very little about Marie P in her memoirs. I don't think she liked her much.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 24, 2006, 10:34:41 AM
I am not sure which arrangement would have given Marie P a happier childhood. I think that what might have made her happy, which was to have lived with her father, who she adored in theory ( but she might have found the reality hard), might not have been the best thing. Although she was not always happy as Sergei and Ella's ward, it might have been the best thing for her.That said, she might have been happier growing up with her father, but who knows how her stepmother would have acted?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2006, 09:42:08 PM
Exactly...Princess Paley was the wildcard in this possible arrangement, even though Grand Duke Paul would have loved to have her around more.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ZarevnaOlga on October 25, 2006, 02:02:58 AM
Maria Pavlovna in russian dress
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1951/2223bb9.th.jpg) (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2223bb9.jpg)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 25, 2006, 08:44:04 AM
It is hard to know how Princess Paley would have reacted to having Grand Duchess Marie P around more. I think she and Grand Duke Paul had very much their own family and life, and so Princess Paley may have wished to keep it that way. That photo of Marie is lovely; I have always liked photos in Russian court dress. Marie's looks were more those of her greek mother though than of the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2006, 01:30:49 PM
Marie definitely resembled Alexandra who closely resembled her mother Olga--who was a Romanov. I guess it comes full-circle.  :)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 25, 2006, 05:39:48 PM
Yes, it does. In facial features especially, Marie P was her mother all over. She looked much like the sadly short lived Alexandra G. Her mother's personality was rather different than hers though. Alexandra G was more sweet, her daughter Marie had more of an edge.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2006, 09:45:41 PM
Yes...Alexandra was a favourite of the family. Many fell crushed when she died so young. Greek Minny wrote about that in her auto-bio.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 26, 2006, 10:23:37 AM
And yet so little seems to be concrete that is known about Alexandra. I do think she was a sweet personality, essentially. She seems to have been nice, and not to have any bad traits in particular. She was remembered well, in the memories of all the family. :) It was so sad that she died young in those circumstances.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 26, 2006, 02:32:48 PM
There's a thread on her in the Imperial Family section if anyone wants to read/post more about her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 10:05:58 PM
Ella and Alexandra seemed to be great friends before the latter's tragic death.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 27, 2006, 08:46:16 AM
Indeed, both were young wives who were married about the same time. Alexandra G was more uncomplicated than Ella; she was essentially a sweet, typical princess and young mother just begining to have a part in the royal world. Ella perhaps felt close to Alexandra G because their roles at the time were alike, only Ella was not a mother. But later she was to become a stepmother to Alexandra's kids, what would Alexandra have thought?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 27, 2006, 10:32:37 PM
I think Alexandra might have approved, as the alternative would be Princess Paley... :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 30, 2006, 11:56:43 AM
I agree, it seems Alexandra would most likely have approved of Ella being stepmother to her kids. Alexandra was a sweet soul, who would have wanted the best for her children, and if Ella was that best, would have wanted Ella to take care of them. Alexandra would have frowned on Princess Paley to be sure, both as a person, and as a second wife for her husband. Princess Paley was what was considered a fast woman, next a young princess who was the very definition of a suitable royal bride. Alexandra would never have liked Princess Paley.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on October 31, 2006, 08:33:11 AM
He married Princess Paley, only out of duty, although perhaps he ought not have been involved with her to begin with as she was unsuitable from many standpoints. She was basically his mistress, and as such, I can see the role she played. But she wasn't suitable as an Imperial wife. His children might have had a better childhood without his marrying her. But then again, this marriage produced Prince Vladimir Paley, so what can I say? Princess Paley was also a very interesting woman, I can see why he married her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 01, 2006, 08:58:54 AM
No, she wasn't stepmother material. She wasn't the type. I think she was a good mother to her own kids, but that was the extent of it. Princess Paley may not have wanted her stepchildren around as perhaps they would have been reminders of her husband's approved first marriage, while his marriage to her was a scandal? But, perhaps she was not as mean spirited, as all that. ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2006, 09:26:42 AM
Agreed...Ella would seemed to be a better choice.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 01, 2006, 03:42:54 PM
Agreed...Ella would seemed to be a better choice.  ;)

I agree with you Eric.  Having seen many pictures and read books in which there are descriptions of the closeness Alexandra had with Ella, I think she would not have minded at all that Elizabeth and Sergei took over in raising the children.  I also think that when Sergei died and Ella took Holy Orders, Alexandra being the sweet soul she was, would never have had any bad feelings toward the Empress and would have loved the idea of her children being raised by the Tsar and Tsarina.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 01, 2006, 05:17:57 PM
Yes, that's true. I think Ella did have a very caring and forgiving personality that made her a wonderful person, and not only that, she would have made a wonderful mother had she got the chance, which she did not. She was a good stepmother, she and Dmitri were quite close. You can see that if you have have ever seen that photo in one of Charlotte Zeepvat's photo books of Ella and Dmitri. Marie Pavlovna didn't always have a good opinion of her, but that was more about her own personality and how she looked at things than reality.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 01, 2006, 06:05:15 PM
I always believe that Dimitri had a different opinion of Ella than marie P and the photo proved it !  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 02, 2006, 11:17:43 AM
Yes, the photo does prove that Dmitri and Ella got along well. In this photo, she seems to be almost like a mother to him, and she she looks so much more like Alexandra than in some photos. At first, I thought it was Alexandra. Body language in photos doesn't always prove things, but I will say that this one seems to back up historical reality.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 02, 2006, 08:26:44 PM
I know someone is working on a bio on Dimitri, maybe they can throw some light on the Dimitri/Ella relationship.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2006, 11:06:13 AM
That would be great! I think Dmitri and Ella's relationship was pretty uncomplicated, and there was not much controversy there, as there is with her and Marie P. I think from all the evidence we have, Dmitri truly found a mother in Ella although his own mother had died when he was born. Dmitri is a bit hard to understand in later years, especially in regard to Rasputin and Yusupov, but then, I think he was easier to understand in youth.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2006, 10:38:25 PM
Yes although the researchers only have Dimitri's dairies and papers after he was exiled from Russia.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 04, 2006, 01:00:28 AM
That would be great! I think Dmitri and Ella's relationship was pretty uncomplicated, and there was not much controversy there, as there is with her and Marie P. I think from all the evidence we have, Dmitri truly found a mother in Ella although his own mother had died when he was born. Dmitri is a bit hard to understand in later years, especially in regard to Rasputin and Yusupov, but then, I think he was easier to understand in youth.

I'm not sure what exactly is difficult to understand about Dmitri as an adult. And, GD Elizabeth was not the only maternal figure in Dmitri's life - I think that is a gross oversimplification. In terms of Rasputin, he was certainly close enough to the Imperial Family to be aware of their tremendous anxiety over Alexei, but he was also aware of the terrible damage Rasputin was doing to the entire dynasty. The little we know directly about his involvement in the Rasputin assassination is that he viewed it as a patriotic act before the fact and a great mistake after. As to Yussupov, they were lifelong friends before the murder. Afterwards, Felix's lack of keeping his word about not discussing it cause the Grand Duke to mistrust his former friend.

If you check the biographies section on the APTM, there are biographies of both Grand Duke Dmitri and Rasputin that contain alot of this information.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 05, 2006, 06:47:32 PM
Yes, I am sure she was not the only maternal figure in his life. I was just remarking that as she was considered his stepmother, they had a good relationship, in my opinion, and that this illustrates some of Ella's good qualities contrary to what Marie P said in her autobiography of Ella as a stepmother. I wouldn't exactly say Dmitri was a mystery, just that he was sometimes complicated, or maybe he just seems an unfulfilled figure in the years after the Revolution, but that's just my opinion, of course.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 06, 2006, 09:24:07 AM
In terms of GD Dimitri, I agree that Ella wasn't the only maternal figure in his life, but I believe she the most influential.  In Hugo Mager's book The Grand Duchess Elizabeth, he mentiones that Felix also looked upon Ella with a lot of respect and went to her with problems and for advice. In the book it is inferred that he took to heart that Rasputin was damaging the dynasty and was supported by Ella in doing something about it.  This also extended to Dimitri.  But there was a suggestion from Greg King that perhaps Felix's intentions to kill Rasputin were not for the same as reasons exactly as Dimitri.  Greg mentiones that for Felix it may have been because of some thwarted homosexual advance by Felix towards Rasputin whereas for Dimitri perhaps it was less complicated, just as a duty to his family.  Felix and Dimitri were lifelong friends, and Felix's failure to keep his word as you said Lisa caused the GD to distrust his former friend.  I feel as imperial angel said though as well  it also caused him to keep things close to the cuff in later years.  Making him something of an enigma after the Revolution.  I believe that his anxiety and guilt over the assassination as well as the assassination of most of his family made him something of a complex figure in later years.  But again,  that's just MY opinion. of course.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 06, 2006, 12:11:56 PM
I tend to think as well that the Rasputin thing complicated his later years, and that he becomes more an enigma then. He was not an enigma in the early years, I would say. Certainly, his relationship with Ella wasn't complicated. That's just the point I was making, I have read I think some books that tend to agree there, but all history is subjective, so who knows? What is known is that Marie P and Ella never really got along, howeber good her relationship with Dmitri was.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 06, 2006, 12:48:08 PM
I tend to think as well that the Rasputin thing complicated his later years, and that he becomes more an enigma then. He was not an enigma in the early years, I would say. Certainly, his relationship with Ella wasn't complicated. That's just the point I was making, I have read I think some books that tend to agree there, but all history is subjective, so who knows? What is known is that Marie P and Ella never really got along, howeber good her relationship with Dmitri was.

Well, I certainly think that anyone who loses one's mother at birth is bound to have issues, don't you? I don't think that MP Jr.'s and GD Ella's relationship can be reduced to "never got along", either. I think GD Paul did as well as he could as long as he could but it was probably inevitable that he would want to remarry, unfortunately, no one would help him find a "suitable" bride so he found a partner himself - the wife of a fellow officer!

Princess Paley was, in spite of what has been written here, a very loving mother and stepmother. Her children and stepchildren all loved her and benefited from knowing her. So, while she was not a maternal influence in the early earlys of DP and MP's lives, she was, nonetheless, a mother to them. So was the Empress, who children reportedly loved throughout her life, another mother to those two. And, of course, their nannies and governesses were probably the most "maternal" of all the people in their younger years.

In terms of Grand Duchess Elizabeth, I don't think she was terribly maternal, but I think she did love those two. She probably did the best she could under the circumstances. Also, I think much of the tension in her relationship with MP came from the latter feeling as though she was being "pushed out" and forced into an undesired marriage so that GDE could found her convent. Conversely, though, I think MP actually admired and wanted to emulate her life of service in many ways.

History is not so much subjective (there are after all documents that aren't at all subjective) as needing to be approached with some degree of critical thinking and also with the intention of gaining some insights. It's not so much as matter of "agreeing" with others because they got something "right", as learning to understand the times in which these figures operated.

Dmitri's relationship with his sister, for example, was likely much healthier on his side than on hers, and yet the sister adapted much better to "the real world" than he did.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2006, 09:51:07 PM
I am sorry, but I did not see any evidence of Princess Paley being a good stepmother. In fact one does not see much of Marie P ot Dimitri in her memoirs. So I believe giving custody to Serge & Ella was more politically correct and acceptable to all parties concerned.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 06, 2006, 11:01:54 PM
I am sorry, but I did not see any evidence of Princess Paley being a good stepmother. In fact one does not see much of Marie P ot Dimitri in her memoirs. So I believe giving custody to Serge & Ella was more politically correct and acceptable to all parties concerned.  ???

What exactly would you consider evidence? Princess Paley's memoirs focus fairly narrowly on her life with the Grand Duke and the tragedy of losing both him and her son Volodia Paley. Both MP and DP always made a point of seeing her - and both were still very much alive when her memoirs were written. I don't think a good stepmother would necessarily write about her relationship with her stepchildren in her autobiography.

Eric, there was no such thing as "politically correct" in the early 20th century. It was certainly not acceptable to Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich to have others - even his brother and sister in law - raise his children. His son and daughter were taken away from him involuntarily due to his marriage to Princess Paley. It was the Emperor who made this decision, so I have no idea where you get the idea that this was "acceptable to all parties". It wasn't okay with the two young people, and GD Elizabeth not maternal, so perhaps the only person who enjoyed this arrangement was Serge.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 02:20:28 AM
Welll...Princess Paley was a commoner and according to some memoirs wrtten not a lady of good character. In fact most consider her an advanteuer that trapped the grand duke into marrying her. The Dowager Empress did not like her one bit. So the Emperor's decision to grant custody to Grand Duke Sergei and Ella was acceptable to the wishes of the Romanov family.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 07, 2006, 11:15:46 AM
I am very interested in the Paleys, and I think some did regard Princess Paley as ''fast'', but in this day and age she would most likely look pretty tame. I know little about her character, but it seems that she was never proved as a stepmother, or not, so it seems relevant to speculate. I don't think Princess Paley would have made a bad stepmother, but I don't know she would have been a good one either. Given that, you have to look at other things, I think Marie P would have wanted to be a stepchild of her, raised by her and her father-she might have been happier, or would have been. Marie P's relationship with Ella was complicated, yes. It was bound to be, given their characters, and how the sitiuation was. Dmitri seems to have found happiness with Ella as a stepmother, in my view.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 07, 2006, 08:07:23 PM
I think you give a fair accessment to the situation Imperial Angel. Princess Paley was indeed considered a "fast" woman by the Russian Imperial Family. The whole drama of how she got the Grand Duke to marry her after she got into disgrace (she was his mistress before) was well documented. The conservative elevent in the Imperial court eemed Paul & her unfilt to raise the children and awarded thenm to Sergei & Ella. I do not believe Princess Paley had an overwhelming desire to be a stepmother, while Paul wanted to have his children close to him. So yes it was speculation that she could or couldn't have been a good stepmother or not. Although judging from the available sources, there wasn't much warmth on either side.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 07, 2006, 10:53:48 PM
From Princess Paley's Memoirs:

During our stay at Mohileff the Grand Duke Dimitri, who was on duty with the Emperor, often came to lunch and. dine with us. Very well informed about war matters and what was in progress at the headquarters of the General Staff, endowed with remarkable intelligence and with the faculty of grasping facts and drawing from them the necessary conclusion, this young man of twenty-five was a mature man and a shrewd observer. He also recognised the imminent danger which the country was running, and he had conversations on the subject more than once with the Emperor . and with his own father. I remember that one day at Mohileff, at tea time, he said to me:

"Ah, mamotchka (a tender diminutive of mama), if only you knew what is going to happen!"

Eric, maybe you and I have different views of "warm", but this seems to be a pretty warm way for the Grand Duke to address his stepmother.

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 08, 2006, 12:33:33 AM
I think you give a fair accessment to the situation Imperial Angel. Princess Paley was indeed considered a "fast" woman by the Russian Imperial Family. The whole drama of how she got the Grand Duke to marry her after she got into disgrace (she was his mistress before) was well documented. The conservative elevent in the Imperial court eemed Paul & her unfilt to raise the children and awarded thenm to Sergei & Ella. I do not believe Princess Paley had an overwhelming desire to be a stepmother, while Paul wanted to have his children close to him. So yes it was speculation that she could or couldn't have been a good stepmother or not. Although judging from the available sources, there wasn't much warmth on either side.  ???

1. While some people may have blamed Olga Valerianova for her relationship with GD Paul, the facts are these. OV's husband was an officer on the staff of GD Vladimir. As military men reckon such matters everywhere, GD Paul had no right to "poach" the wife of a brother officer. There was nothing "fast" about Princess Paley, and indeed, I have never encountered one single reference to her being considered fast. I'd like to know your source for this characterization, please, and otherwise, please withdraw your reference.

2. I would also like to know the source of how she "got the grand duke to marry her". According to MP's memoirs, the Grand Duke wanted to marry her for a long time and the two were in love. You've got to wonder how Imperial Russia got all of these Jezabels trapping these poor innocent grand dukes (tongue firmly in cheek).

3. GD Paul's children were not "prizes" to be awarded to the winning grand duke, they were people. The conservative element you describe was one person - the Emperor's uncle and brother in law GD Serge. As MP's memoirs show, it was he who got the Emperor to "award" the children to him, regardless of the fact that he was the only one who wished this.

4. You obviously know nothing at all about Princess Paley or you wouldn't say that she had no desire to be a stepmother - source please? According to everything I've read, the Grand Duke Paul and PP fell in love, wanted to marry, finally did, were punished for years until reclaiming titles and income and acceptance at court. PP did everything she could for her husband and his family, as MP's memoirs clearly show. MP accepted PP out of love for her father.

5. Reading what Dmitri and MP both wrote, and I quoted PP's memoirs above, there was alot of warmth and family feeling between the lady and her stepchildren. Unfortunately, your opinions and beliefs simply do not jibe with the facts.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2006, 09:20:57 AM
'My father and my step-mother led in their home the life of private people...During the years I spent in Sweden...it was a rest and a welcome change to escape all formality for two or three short weeks; it was a joy also to feel, for a time at least, part of a happy household, for happy indeed it was.'

Later, when they were able to reconnect in Paris (they exchanged letters but Pss Paley had to undergo an operation for breast cancer and wasn't able to travel) they met up at the Ritz. 'And then she appeared. Her face was deathly pale and transparent, terribly aged and lined. She had grown smaller, she seemed to have shrivelled up...We fell on each other's neck, weeping and speechless. That afternoon we sat in silence; nothing that we could say would have expressed our feelings or brought us any comfort. After that I came back after day as long as her stay in Paris lasted....Her grief had completely changed her; she was broken, miserable creature..all the magnificent self-assurance, the composure of the past, had totally disappeared...she abandoned herself to her misery completely, passionately. Hidden beneath her outward worldliness there had always been something untamed, elemental about her nature which was now more appearent than ever....Afterwards, however, she slowly recovered her balance; her amazing vitality got the better of her moral depression and she began to again take an interest in life. She was forced to by her daughters' need for her, but her wounds never healed; they remained as fresh as on the first day....The attention she had to give these matters [the practical ones of finance and where they'd live] brought her out of her torpor, and eventually she proved herself to be a much sounder business woman than any of us....Once a year at Christmas she used to gather us all around a Christmas tree for a celebration in memory of the past...her energy was still astounding; her interests and those of her children she defended with persistence and tenacity, clinging to the few possessions which still remained to her....During the summer holidays we [she, Dmitri and Putiatin before their divorce] usually motored down to Biarritz...[and] spent two or three weeks by the ocean, sometimes in the company of my stepmother..and my two step-sisters...[Upon deciding to go to America] The leave I took from the Princess Paley was the most painful of all. She was my last tie with the older generation, and I knew that I should never see her again. [Her cancer had reoccured and was terminal] My courage failed me to go and say good-bye to her at Natasha's house in St Cloud...We met in Natasha's office...in Paris...Although she had longed for death for all these years, when her time came her fundamental strength fought desperately for life. Step by step, inch by inch, she relinquished her hold and only gave way at the last moment, when her animal energy had been completely exhausted.' [A Princess in Exile]

What I took away from the various passages--especially the ones dealing with Pss Paley's indefatigable attempts to free her father, which I didn't quote here as they were too long--was that MP had a fundamental respect for her stepmother's tenacity, her innate practical nature and her ability, like MP, to fight for what she wanted, even when the world was seemingly doing its best to crush her. Despite the overwhelming tragedies, eventually she was able to pick herself up and continue on with life and do her best--including fighting the Soviets tooth and nail in court to prevent them from selling their possessions, despite the lack of funds to fight such a battle--to secure a future for herself and her children. She didn't curl up and refuse to face the realities of this changed world, unlike many displaced royalties, but rather soldiered on. The two women were very alike in this respect and, whatever problems there might have been in their early dealings, and there does seem to have been some understandable tension, there seemed to be a great deal of respect on the part of the women and a common bond in their love for Grand Duke Paul and his other children.

 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2006, 10:59:23 AM
I agree that they have grown close during later in life. However I think we were not talking about this later stage but the one that occured when Grand Duke Paul married her. Olga Pistolkors (Paul divorcee mistress) appearted at the Winter Palace wearing diamonds belonging to Paul's mother, Empress Marie Alexandrovna. Everybody reconized the imperial jewels. Minny demanded that Olga be expelled from the party. He later eloped with her.

Grand Duke Vladimir wrote to Sergei after the Grand Duke eloped with Olga Pistolkors (later Princess Paley) "He (Paul) has behaved shamelessly as a member of our family and as a military man. His behavior cannot be called anything but criminal. And to her I said plainly that if she will ever became the wife of my brother, I will turn my back on her and she will never in life see my face again. What will become of him ? How will he be able to live the life of an outcast ? What will become of the children ? My heart is heavy, my head is empty...I repeat to you that I am crying for help and I embrace you with my heart filled with sadness."

Minny was was no less bitter about the elopement "He (Paul) has forgotton everything, all his fundamental obligations, his children, country, service, honour, everything he has sacrificed everything for that stupid woman, who was not worthy of it...He is simply throwing dirt at our family ! Awful, awful !"

When I said in the earlier post I said the conservative fractions opposeing the match. Here is the proof from the words of Grand Duke Vladimir and Dowager Empress Marie. I would really doubt they would approve Nicholas II to deposit the children with that "stupid woman" (In Minny's own words).
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 12:16:53 PM
From what I understand, I think any woman in that day and age, who was a divorcee, or the mistress of somebody, or who married a member of the Imperial family morgantically, did not have a very good reputation. Of course, this often did not not have much to with the reality of the whole thing, as someone's character would be fine by modern standards, they just happened to get divorced or fall in love with the wrong person. Princess Paley was a very fine woman, no doubt, but she was labeled by her reputation, which is sad. Anyway, it seems she and Marie P did get along well, and I think despite the tensions that existed there, that Marie P would have been happier to have her as stepmother. I am not sure about Dmitri. The Romanov Family seems to have felt that these children should be the stepchildren of Sergei, and I am sure he pushed for that, as he was forceful, ao the two things came together.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2006, 04:00:39 PM
I agree that they have grown close during later in life. However I think we were not talking about this later stage but the one that occured when Grand Duke Paul married her. Olga Pistolkors (Paul divorcee mistress) appearted at the Winter Palace wearing diamonds belonging to Paul's mother, Empress Marie Alexandrovna. Everybody reconized the imperial jewels. Minny demanded that Olga be expelled from the party. He later eloped with her.


I didn't realize that we could only talk about one period of time in their relationship.

Here is some from her earlier memoirs:

Upon their first meeting: 'Her face was rigid and pale from emotion...The Countess greeted my aunt with a profound curtsy,and turned to me. We were both embarrassed. I did not know how to greet her; finally I timidly put forth my cheek....While my father and my aunt discussed the way of dividing the jewels (which belonged to Alexandra) the Countess and I examined the furs...The Countess offered to take them to Paris and have them restored. We spoke of my troussea and of the Paris dressmaking houses. Before we parted she said that she would like to give me something in memory of our first meeting; what did I wish? I did not know what to answer, but my glance fell upon the necklace of amethyst balls she was wearing and I replied that I would like to have such a necklace as that. She sent it to me. I wear it still. '

At a later meeting, after MP is married and stops in Paris on the way to Sweden: 'He and his wife were ideally happy. Seeing them thus...there passed from my heart the last trace of all ill feeling that I had harboured towards my stepmother. Thereafter we called each other by name as friends do, and employed the familiar 'tu' and 'toi' in addressing each other.'

An interesting sidenote to Dmitri's role in Rasputin's murder--Pss Paley's elder sister (L.V. Golovina) and one of her daughters 'were sincere and fanatic partisans of Rasputin' and Pss Paley's eldest son, A.E. Pistolkors, was married to Anna Vyrubova's sister. Yet another of Pss Paley's children (by her first marriage) was very friendly with Dmitri. It made for a very uncomfortable Christmas gathering a few days after the murder. Also, Marie and Pss Paley polished the text of the petition about Dmitri.

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 08, 2006, 04:26:37 PM
Yes, we can talk of two periods of time in their relationship, but it still seems to me that overall, Princess Paley might have made a good stepmother for her, if only because of the fact she was not the happiest with Ella and Sergei, although there would have been difficult moments without doubt in the whole thing, but many stepchild relationships are like that. Ella wasn't at fault, it might have been more Marie's temprament, I think.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2006, 07:26:45 PM
Might have or could have. It will remain one of history's might have been. As they married during the time when both Marie P and Dimitri were both very small (the quotes above came when Marie was quite a bit older). The overall outrage the imperial family (as illustrated by the words of Grand Duke Vladimir and Dowager Empress Marie) felt for both Paul and Princess Paley made the decision to award custody to Sergei & Ella was the only possible solution they could think of. later with the examples of Miche-Miche and Misha (who married another divorcee), the imperial family gradually relaxed in favour of Grand Duke Paul and his second family and they returned after exile in Paris.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2006, 09:57:29 PM
The quotes were from later periods because there wasn't any relationship prior to that. Marie and Dmitri never met Pss Paley while she was involved with their father and they left the country to marry and didn't return--only Paul did for brief periods. He was already fairly distant--emotionally wrecked by his wife's death and leaving Marie and Dmitri more and more in Ella and Serge's care even before his banishment. How much Marie realized this and didn't blame Pss Paley or whether it was easier to be resentful towards an unseen (and unloved) person seems to be unknown. Marie seemed to want to blame everybody but her father for his leaving the family, even before his remarriage.

Nicholas wrote to Empress Marie on 20 October 1902 (Paul's remarriage came only 3 years before Serge's death and 11 years after the death of his first wife): 'I heard of it [the marriage] from Plehve from Petersburg, who himself had it from the mother, Mdame Pistohlcors...I nevertheless telegraphed to Uncle Paul, in cipher, to mkae sure. The next day he answered that the wedding had taken place at the beginning of September [notice that almost 2 mos had passed]...and that he was writing to me. Ten day slater his letter arrived. Just as, probably, in his letter to you, there is nothing new in what he says in mine--he simply repeats the old arguments I know well from our previous discussions. I told Fredericks to send for Filosofoff with whom I had a long talk. He informed me that on the day he was going abroad Uncle Paul gave him orders to bring him three million roubles to the train from his Estate office. This fact proves that Uncle Paul had made up his mind beforehand to carry out his design and had prepared everything for a long stay abroad. As long ago as last spring...I had a rather stern talk with him, which ended by my warning him of all the consequences his proposed marriage would have for him....I have little doubt as to what is my duty in Uncle Paul's case. The nearer the relative who refuses to submit to our family statutes the graver must be his punishment...Uncle Serge has earnestly requested me to appoint him guardian of the poor children and their estate; this will be put through at once....In all this sad affair only one question remains still open: the question of the recognition of the marriage as legitimate. According to the Statue of the Imperial Family morganatic marriages are not allowed, and, moreover, no marriage is valid without the consent of the Sovereign....Uncle Wladimir, I hear, is quite undone by the whole affair....I must admit that with regard to me he is in a rather awkward position: you remember how he insisted last Summer that the permission for the divorce be granted and, when this was done, how he assured me that he had Uncle Paul's promise not to marry again and that he...would answer with his head for his brother's honour. But Uncle Paul himself, not long before, had told me that he had never pledged his word...in the end, I fear, a whole colony of members of the Russian Imperial Family will be established in Paris with their semi-legitimate and illegitimate wives! God alone knows what times we are living in, when undisguised selfishness stifles all feelings of conscience, duty or even ordinary decency!...I am so deeply indignant about him and his action and can feel no pity for him at all!'

MF responds that: 'I did hope it could be avoided, that in the end he would not marry after all and that his love for his children would prevail--alas, he seems to have forgotten everything--his duty to his children, to his country, service, honour, all, all, have been sacrified....he seems completely blinded and thinks he has acted honourably by marrying her and forgets everything else...The thought of the misery of his poor little children for whom he had been everything and whom he has abandoned distressese me more than I can say. I hope it can be hidden from them as long as possible, it is too cruel and sad!...you who will have to punish him, because such an act cannot remain unpunished, and, into the bargain, marrying a divorced woman!'

Such was the reaction of the Romanov family and the environment that Marie and Dmitri were in. Later MF is reconciled somewhat with Paul--when he visits her in 1916 (around Olga's wedding) she remarks how good and comforting it was to talk with him, the last of her brothers-in-law still living, and also implores Nicholas, on Paul's behalf, for leniency for Dmitri.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2006, 02:34:18 AM
Yes I agree totally. So it was natural that Sergei and Ella to gain custody of the children, whereas Paul has already made up his mind to go into exile with his mistress. I am trying to point of the outrage and disaproval of the Imperial family on Princess Paley, and why it would not have been possible for her and Paul to gain custody of Marie & Dimitri. As matter stood she would have no chance at all to proof what a good/bad stepmother she would have been in the earlier years. Although they did reconciled and got along with both Marie P and Dimitri in the later years.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 10:39:49 AM
It is true that in the earlier years she would have had no choice, so if she was a good stepmother or not can never be known, but I think whatever kind of stepmother she was, Marie would have been happy. She didn't blame her father, and perhaps he wasn't to blame, it seems he was more a victim of circumstances than anything else. She was most likely right not to blame him, and to see him as the victim of it. The whole Imperial Family disaproved of his marriage, although this was no reflection on Princess Paley's character in hindsight, she was just labeled because she was a divorced woman, and a commoner. I think later when they had contact, they did get along, so had not been for various factors, she might have been a good stepmother.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 09, 2006, 11:20:08 AM
I agree.  Marie never felt her father was to blame.  The GD Paul took a while to get over his wife's death and spent a lot of time abroad.  Sergei standing on principal, believed that the children should not go w/their father and should stay in Russia.  But I think it should be noted that when Marie left her unhappy marriage, it was to her father that she ran. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 11:46:02 AM
Yes, whether her father was there in her childhood or not, Marie didn't blame him. She looked to him more because he wasn't there, and thus was golden.  She saw him as perfect, etc.But, she may have been right, as it wasn't in his own fault he wasn't there, and having Princess Paley as a stepmother might not have been bad. Sergei no doubt saw the opportunity for stepchildren, and the whole Romanov family disaproved of Paul's conduct, so that was easy enough to do.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 09, 2006, 12:39:05 PM
Absolutely.  GD Paul was on a pedastal because he was not there enough to critique.  But be that as it may, it did allow for Sergei to "possess" children.  Like he sort of possessed Ella.  Though to be fair, he was good to them.  I think Ella would have been good with the children when they were younger had it not been for a kind of jealousy in a small way perhaps.  Ella was good at helping with the younger children during her days in Hesse and after her mother's death.  So maternal instinct wasn't an issue.  It was maybe she felt the children got more attention from Sergei once they came into the picture.  Ella has been often described as being treated like Sergei's child.  Maybe she secretly didn't mind this and was uncomfortable with the prospect of Sergei's attention on the children.

She did come around with them later on after Sergei's death.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 09, 2006, 08:22:22 PM
I don't know if it's ever been brought up, but perhaps Ella didn't want children. She might not have felt maternal need. She was close to children that weren't hers--sort of the 'nice place to visit, wouldn't want to be there' feeling--but the only ones who lived with her as small children that she had primary responsibilities for, she doesn't seem to have enjoyed it. I'm sure there were other factors involved, among them her complicated relationship with Serge, but I think it's telling that the only written record of her behavior as a mother-figure comes from Marie and it wasn't flattering. It might have been different with her siblings, and they weren't toddlers when she assumed some responsiblity for them. This isn't to say she didn't love children, maybe she just didn't want any of her own. Maybe she was possessive in her own way as Serge and didn't mind the lack of children--Serge could be her primary focus and she his.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2006, 10:21:16 PM
Well...I tend to think that Ella would have wanted children. She did went to pray at holy sites wishing for children (according to family letters). Yet I think somewhere along the line she knew it was not possible with Sergei. When the Paulovich children came to the fold, Sergei was openly quite affectionate with them, while Ella was a bit distant. Accodingly to a theory that when one is confronted with somethjing that one cannot have, it would make the person irratating and unhappy. Ella can handle children as a loving Aunt (like Greek Minny & Felix Yussopov), but to have a daily reminder to what she can never have (children of her own) must be a bitter experience for her. It would explain why she got on with Felix Yussopov and Greek Minny (both not fans of Sergei), while got on miserablily with Marie P (who did). I can only term that as jealousy. Interestingly, Ella seemed to have a loving relation with Dimitri.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 08:53:57 AM
It is hard to say if Ella wanted children or not. She would have been a good mother if she had managed to have some, but if she may have seen that wasn't something that was for her. She may have understood early on that it could not be, and thus whatever her desires were, just accepted it. She perhaps did think Sergei was enough in their marriage; certainly if she didn't think so to begin with, she might later have thought so, as time went by, and it became increasingly clear about her never having children.  Royal marriages were expected to produce children, so even if she didn't want kids, it is possible she acted like she did at times ( like the letters), if only to act as she was expected to act. :-\
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 09:12:44 AM
I agree that it's hard to say.  But wanting them or not, 21 years of marriage is a long time to go without even a "close call".  Without getting to much into their private life, it does make for an interesting argument as to what AIII was referring to when he commented early on that it was a shame the couple would never have children.  Certainly, something was known by the Tsar as to why.  If Ella had made a concious decision to NOT have children,  would this have been a proper topic of discussion w/the Tsar?  Especially if Sergei was not close in the line of succession.  Something to think about too,  physically women really didn't have such a choice.  Even if they had it mentally.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 09:28:07 AM
I know-they really did not have the choice physically that much. Royal women were expected to have heirs, and have many children, and it wasn't encouraged not to, as far as I know. But if you weren't close to the line of succession, it might be easier to make the choice not to have children, a choice that would have had to be mutual, between husband and wife. I think Sergei did want children though, and Ella may have felt like she should, so I don't think they chose not to have children, even if they did not in particular try to have any. Who knows?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 09:35:15 AM
Yes.  That is certainly a private matter between the couple and I agree it would have had to be a mutual decision. 
Nevertheless,  Sergei wanted Paul's children and vied for them w/the Tsar.  He demanded them as a matter of fact.  So,  Sergei possibly could have changed his mind about not wanting children and Ella acquiesced as always to her husband.  If indeed it was a concious decision.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 09:49:43 AM
It certainly does seem as if Sergei wanted children, since you are right, he did press for those stepchildren quite strongly, and once he had them as his stepchildren, was very fond of them, and he was a good stepfather. It seems that he might have made that choice, one he could have made considering he was rather remote from the succession. But, I don't think he never wanted children, because he seemed to be the one who enjoyed having stepchildren the most. But, it would have been quite impossible for Ella to have made that choice. It's puzzling.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 10:05:20 AM
Completely puzzling.  Without delving too far into the physical, we really will never know.  It just doesn't add up for me.  Ella and Sergei's inability or unwillingness to have children is mentioned early on in the marriage by the Tsar.  I just keep thinking, he could only have known such a personal issue by his brother telling him certain details or it was just something known about Sergei within the family.  I can't imagine Ella's personal issues being discussed as a family topic even between Sergei and AIII privately.  He wouldn't have discussed Ella's female issues with even his brother.    But if Sergei had the problem, physical or whatever, that would certainly have been something the Tsar would have been aware of. What do you think?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 10:10:47 AM
Well, I think if it was some sort of physical issue, then it would have had to be on Sergei's part. His family would have been aware of it, and that would have accounted for their knowledge, and for their statements regarding that the couple might not have children. If it was an issue on Ella's part, you are right, they would not be certain of it, and they could not discuss it with as much understanding as they would have with it being Sergei, etc.But, without knowing the physical or delving into it, we won't know, but I think Ella would have wanted children. Of course, it is possible that she didn't...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 10:19:29 AM
Anything is possible to be sure.  Anyway, I definitely think the children filled some sort of void for Sergei but not Ella.  Ella truly only found it in her vocation.  Sergei was an attentive stepfather, though it has been said the children missed their own father very much and would have rather been with him.  Who wouldn't though i suppose.  Especially being w/o their real mother.  I do think that Dmitri was closer to Ella than MP.  They noticed a change in her after Sergei died.  But it was never a real mother-children bond in my opinion.  She provided for them and did what she thought was best in their upbringing according to what she thought Sergei would have wanted.    I think Ella probably knew deep down, that she was to walk a different path than motherhood. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 10:59:36 AM
Yes, she may not have been not maternal, she may just have realized she wanted a different path, a different way. She certainly did well following the path she took, in the way she did things. She may not have been the warmest of women, in the maternal way anyway, and she may just have understood people well, but not children. She seems like she was a good stepmother, but maybe not a very warm one, etc. Sergei seems like the one who was warmer, which is funny since he was considered to be quite cold by many.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 01:55:03 PM
You are so right! Sergei does seem like he was the warmer step-parent.  Ironic, isn't it?  Maybe around the children, he didn't have the need to worry so much about the way he was perceived.  Maybe that's the key to figuring him out.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 02:00:49 PM
Yes, it might be. I think there is irony there, that Sergei who was regarded as so cold, was actually quite warm with his stepchildren, and fought to have them. He must have wanted children of his own then, but for some reason that didn't happen. He might have been cold because of how he felt he was percieved, perhaps, that's certainly a theory worth considering, because I have always felt there is some other key to his character.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 02:05:42 PM
Absolutely.  Since we know very little about how he was privately,  the way he treated the children might be the key.  MP documented some in her writings, so there is a first hand account of how Sergei acted in private,  behind closed doors.  It is tough to make any sort of decision regarding him!  What a complicated man.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 10, 2006, 02:21:38 PM
Yes, she may not have been not maternal, she may just have realized she wanted a different path, a different way. She certainly did well following the path she took, in the way she did things. She may not have been the warmest of women, in the maternal way anyway, and she may just have understood people well, but not children. She seems like she was a good stepmother, but maybe not a very warm one, etc. Sergei seems like the one who was warmer, which is funny since he was considered to be quite cold by many.

What is significant to me about this whole matter is how little the best interests of Marie and Dmitri were factored into the decision as to where they lived and who had custody. There have been numerous misstatements on this thread and others that I have tried to correct, because if we have our facts incorrect, it's difficult to draw proper conclusions. We have been told for example:

1. Princess Paley was not "stepmother material", she was "fast", relationships with her stepchildren were "cold", she was common, etc. As a matter of fact, only her not being an aristocrat was true. She was a great stepmother, she was not fast, and she had a warm relationship with all of her children, step or not. The reason the two children were "awarded" to Serge and Ella was that there was a scandal about their relationship, the reason of which I will explain below.

2. The objections to Paul's relationship with Olga Piskeltors were based upon her lack of character and aristocratic background. In fact, the primary objection was that the lady was the wife of one of Paul's brother officers. As far as I know, this has always been the "code" in the military fraternity throughout the world. This made their relationship scandalous, which is why the Emperor would never have approved their marriage - although her lack of royal birth by itself would have precluded such an approval. It was the scandal that caused the Emperor to make the decision he did, i.e., to take Paul's children away from him.

3. Serge and Ella were the ideal foster parents and that this relationship was desired by all concerned, even the dead GD Alexandra Georgeievna. As I pointed out, this was patently false, the only one who desired this was Serge. It was not wanted by Grand Duke Paul, his new wife, his two children by AG, or even Grand Duchess Elizabeth. The late Grand Duchess Alexandra would have certainly wanted their children with their father, as she had been deeply in love with him. This placement came about, not to ensure the well being of the children, but to ensure the punishment of Grand Duke Paul. The well being of Dmitri and Marie was not considered.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2006, 07:45:43 PM
Welll...According to the published sources, Princess Paley was a divorced woman and a commoner. Both this automatically barred her from marrying Grand Duke Paul. The fact that he eloped with her was a great shock to the senior members of the Imperial family (Grand Duke Vladimir and Dowager Empress Marie). They seen this act of difiance (Grand Dukes need to ask permission from the Emperor to marry) made him seemed irresponsible in their eyes. They also do not see her to be qualified as a stepmother to both Marie P & Dimitri. I really did not know if Grand Duchess Alexandra would have approved Princess Paley as the children's stepmother. Alexandra was a close friend of Ella (since Paul & Sergei were close brothers) and quite a few photos taken of the two ladies. She would have approved Ella & Sergei since she know them personally. The Greek Royal Family (Alexandra 's family) seemed to have no problems with the choice as well.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 11, 2006, 12:59:55 AM
Welll...According to the published sources, Princess Paley was a divorced woman and a commoner. Both this automatically barred her from marrying Grand Duke Paul. The fact that he eloped with her was a great shock to the senior members of the Imperial family (Grand Duke Vladimir and Dowager Empress Marie). They seen this act of difiance (Grand Dukes need to ask permission from the Emperor to marry) made him seemed irresponsible in their eyes. They also do not see her to be qualified as a stepmother to both Marie P & Dimitri. I really did not know if Grand Duchess Alexandra would have approved Princess Paley as the children's stepmother. Alexandra was a close friend of Ella (since Paul & Sergei were close brothers) and quite a few photos taken of the two ladies. She would have approved Ella & Sergei since she know them personally. The Greek Royal Family (Alexandra 's family) seemed to have no problems with the choice as well.  ???

I really don't know what your point is in bringing all this up as it's basically a rehash. That OV was a divorced commoner has never been in dispute, nor has the fact that her lack of royal birth would have prevented the Emperor from approving their marriage as equal. I believe I clearly stated that the scandal of this relationship was the reason his children were removed from GD Paul's custody. It had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's "qualifications" to be a parent or stepparent, because, indeed, the well being of the two children was never even considered in the decision. It was punishment for their father. If we're talkiing qualifications, wouldn't two people who had actually raised children be better qualified than two who had not? Generally speaking, this would be the case.

My point about Alexandra Georgievna, which you maybe did not catch, was that because she was very much in love with her husband, she would have wanted their children to remain with their father. I would find it bizarre, as I am sure most married partners would, for a dead spouse to have an "opinion" about the suriving partners new mate. It's not a matter of the dead spouse "approving" the new stepmother. It's a matter that if you love someone and have children with them, and create a home with them, you don't ever want those children taken out of that home with your spouse. Do you understand the difference?

For that reason, I absolutely disagree that she would have "approved Serge and Ella" as step parents. Had GD Paul also died, then perhaps she would have liked to see her children with her brother in law and sister in law, but her husband was alive. I'm finding it rather frustrating that you cannot seem to grasp that most women in a happy marriage would not "approve" of her children being taken away from their father - especially when he was taking loving care of them.

The Greek Royal Family had no influence over the Emperor removing their grandchildren from their father's care, unfortunately. For me, as a parent, the most disturbing part of all of this is that the well being of the children was never a consideration. To me, this was a tremendous betrayal of the trust that AG placed in the Russian Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 11, 2006, 01:15:18 PM
I agree with you here, Lisa. If both parents had died, then Serge and Ella might've been a good choice as they were both very close to Alexandra and Paul. As I quoted from the letters to/from Nicholas and Marie F, it was clearly a punishment for his actions and the "sneaking around" to achieve his aims. I always thought Paul was rather selfish in his actions, since he had to realize the wrath that would come down on his head, but I still think it was too much to relieve him of his children entirely. Dmitri and Marie wouldn't have suffered from being raised in their father's home--and they would've been not only with their father but with their half-siblings. Even if there was outrage at the beginning, it still seems petty to have deprived him for as long as they did. Perhaps it might've been doubted the suitablility of the home but it was clear pretty early on that it was a loving and happy  home--one that both children would've benefited by.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 12, 2006, 07:37:40 PM
I agree with the more positive things that have been said about Princess Paley. She was never their stepmother, but she seems to have been a good mother to her own children, from what I've read, and it is only speculation to say she would have been a bad steparent with no foundation. I am sure that Alexandra would have wanted the children to remain with their father, but I am not sure what she would have thought of his second wife, not because of her character, but because of her being divorced and a commoner. One wonders what Alexandra, a princess of royal blood would have thought of that, but she seems to have been understanding, and would have wanted what was best for her children, even so. She was close to Sergei and Ella, though, so it seems a question to me..Marie would have been happier with her father, though, as she clearly wasn't happy with Sergei and Ella. Dmitri would most likely have been happier as well, but I think he enjoyed a better relationship with Sergei and Ella than Marie did. That doesn't mean though, that he would not have benefited from being in his father's home, just that the alternative was not as bad for him.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2006, 10:08:12 PM
Oh I definitely agree that Marie P & Dimitri would be happier staying with their father. It was the fact that the Imperial family wanted to punish him for his selfishness in putting his own private happiness over the dynasty's laws and considerations. Even in this century the selfisness of Edward VIII contrasted hevily with the sacrifice of Princess Margaret over the divorced Peter Townsend. If Princess Margaret had chosen Peter Townsend, she would have abandoned the titles the money and the right of being a member of the British Royal Family. On the pressure she relented. Grand Duke Paul retained his title and got to live a rich exile in Paris (like the Duke of Windsor years later). I tend to think to the conservative mind to let Paul and the "stupid woman" (quote from Dowager Empress's letter to Nicholas II) raise Marie P and Dimitri in exile was completely out of the question. Sergei and Ella were considered the next best thing. I also believe Paul was allowed vistation rights to see his children later, although Princess Paley wasn't able to until much much later to see her imperial stepchildren.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 12, 2006, 11:24:46 PM
I agree with the more positive things that have been said about Princess Paley. She was never their stepmother, but she seems to have been a good mother to her own children, from what I've read, and it is only speculation to say she would have been a bad steparent with no foundation. I am sure that Alexandra would have wanted the children to remain with their father, but I am not sure what she would have thought of his second wife, not because of her character, but because of her being divorced and a commoner. One wonders what Alexandra, a princess of royal blood would have thought of that, but she seems to have been understanding, and would have wanted what was best for her children, even so. She was close to Sergei and Ella, though, so it seems a question to me..Marie would have been happier with her father, though, as she clearly wasn't happy with Sergei and Ella. Dmitri would most likely have been happier as well, but I think he enjoyed a better relationship with Sergei and Ella than Marie did. That doesn't mean though, that he would not have benefited from being in his father's home, just that the alternative was not as bad for him.

Princess Paley was most certainly their stepmother. There are many different ways to be a stepmother - a person married to one's father who is not one's mother is - one's stepmother. By the time that their father was forgiven for marrying their stepmother, both MP and DP were grown, so it was a different kind of step mother relationship than it would have been had they been able to live with their father.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2006, 01:31:49 AM
Yes...It was only then that they were allowed to meet. It was owed to Princess Paley's tact and the children's willingness to reach out that the relationship was able to begin. For example I don't think King Michael of Romania ever accepted Eleni (Magda) Lupeasu as his stepmother (even though she was married to his father).  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 13, 2006, 12:26:38 PM
Yes...It was only then that they were allowed to meet. It was owed to Princess Paley's tact and the children's willingness to reach out that the relationship was able to begin. For example I don't think King Michael of Romania ever accepted Eleni (Magda) Lupeasu as his stepmother (even though she was married to his father).  ???

But, accepting someone as a stepmother is something entirely different than someone being one's stepmother. I don't think there was ever disagreement or controversy with Princess Paley as far as she was their stepmohter and had a warm and loving relationship with all her children - step or not.

The situation with King Michael is completely off topic to this particular discussion except for the fact that his father married who he did, meaning that he too, had a stepmother, even though M. Lupescu was not ever that except for in name. I really don't know why this was brought up.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 13, 2006, 12:37:24 PM
Yes, I as well had her being theie stepmother and them accepting her mixed up. It really was a situation, that could have been resolved much better. Of course, it is good to know that in the end they did get to know each other, and that it went well, in my opinion. I guess the saying all's well that ends well is true. I think morgantic marriages were difficult issues, and that most grand dukes who made them did not already have children, so how much precedent was there for the sitiuation with Paul and his children? I am just curious if what happened was at all shaped by precedent, or just by the things at the time?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 13, 2006, 01:41:19 PM
Precedent seems to have something to do with it, based on Marie and Nicholas's comments. Paul seems to have reaped what others  had sown--Nicholas writes of his father's treatment of Grand Duke Michael M as an example. He also wrote about how "I fear, a whole colony of members of the Russian Imperial Family will be established in Paris with their semi-legitimate and illegitimate wives! God alone knows what times we are living in, when undisguised selfishness stifles all feelings of conscience, duty or even ordinary decency!...I am so deeply indignant about him and his action and can feel no pity for him at all!'. Paul's situation was new, however, in the fact that he had already been married with children. Grand Duke Michael M (Miche-Miche) was exiled to England but he had no children prior to this.  I think the betrayal that Nicholas speaks of played a large part in how harsh the treatment was. Ironically, any example they hoped to set wasn't followed--Grand Dukes Kyril and Michael A would marry secretly and in defiance of the Tsar within the next decade.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2006, 01:43:43 AM
Indeed. I don't know if Ella shared Minny & Vladmir's sentiment about Paul's second marriage, but I read somewhere she felt very let down by him (especially she was close to Grand Duchess Alexandra).  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 14, 2006, 11:41:32 AM
It seems the whole family was let down by the sitiuation, without including individual family members. Morgantic marriages were always controversial, and there appeared to be more and more of them in Russia among the IF, at the turn of the century, and also the late 19th century, etc. It was a tide that could not be stemmed, so I think if things has continued on, there might have been a sitiuation like there was with Paul and his children, and how they could become the stepchildren of Sergei and Ella.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2006, 08:41:19 PM
Indeed...I guess for Ella it was a mixed blessing having the children in such close quarters. It was interesting that only through Marie P's eyes that we are able to see some of the turmoil of Ella's life and inner struggles. It provide a clue that things are not always serene in the Serge household.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 15, 2006, 08:36:25 AM
Well, are things ever serene in any household? Just because there were occasional issues, doesn't mean that every dark rumour about their marriage was true. Ella was quite warmhearted, but maybe she would not have been that warm of a mother not that that is always the criteria of a good mother, on the evidence. Marie P was undoubtedly biased, and maybe she really didn't know the truth of the sitiuation herself.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2006, 09:17:36 AM
I think it would be hard for Ella to be nice 24 hours a day. She must have her bad days and unfortunately Marie P was there to see it all. It would be safe to say that she rub Ella the wrong way.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 15, 2006, 09:48:42 AM
Perhaps it wasn't MP as much as the situation.  In the book about Ella by Hugo Mager and indeed in MP's own biography (from which many quotes are taken) Ella seemed quite stiff with Marie and easily agitated in the beginning when MP showed any emotion toward her.  But Ella was raised quite differently than the Romanov court and possibly was not as expressive when she first came to Russia.  in my opinion, she was not as rigid the more "Russian" she became.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2006, 11:12:43 AM
It could be that Ella did not know what to deal with Marie P. Her experiences contrasted with the glowing reports of kindness by Missy, Greek Minny and Felix Yussopov. However one has to say that none of those lived with Ella so closely as Marie P. Yet Dimitri did not seem to have the problems that Marie P had with Ella...It really sound confusing here ?  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 15, 2006, 11:47:54 AM
Yes it's true.  You never truly know someone until you live w/them.  Undoubtedly, Marie P's perspective of Ella was unique.  The relationship w/Dmitri doesn't seem to be the same.  In Marie P.'s bio though, it is said that Dmitri, having been born early, was treated very gently by Sergei, who bathed and tended to the baby himself.  Perhaps, Ella saw how helpless Dmitri was and only thought of him as such.  Also, it could be he was the male child.  there was a bit of  predjudice at that time w/the sex of offspring. Even in Ella's upbringing.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2006, 09:48:04 PM
Yes...Ella could project Ernie or Frittie into Dimitri, while Marie P came with more baggage. I tend to think she resent being seperated from her father.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 16, 2006, 09:01:20 AM
Marie P. absolute resented being separated from GD Paul.  She states that she felt that she was in a contant feeling of repressed revolt against all that had changed in her life.  But Ella could have also projected feelings on Marie P.  seeing her as young girl w/her whole life before her as Ella's was pretty much laid out for her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 16, 2006, 10:45:40 AM
Well, the fact of Ella's rather cold treatment at times of Marie as alleged by her seems to be that nobody is perfect, and Ella may not have been the most maternal of people. But, I tend to think Marie P was just not happy with the sitiuation, and that she didn't want it, and would have been happier with her father. All her life, Marie P had troubles getting along with people. So it seems that it was more Marie P, I don't see why Ella would have resented her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 16, 2006, 11:02:29 AM
Marie P. did have difficulty in relationships with everybody throughout her life.  I don't think Ella quite resented her but I think there was a difference in the way she regarded Marie as opposed to GD Dmitri.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2006, 11:32:14 AM
I think Dimitri was not as wilful as Marie P. I think she bought out the worst in Ella... ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2006, 08:25:48 AM
Well, it seems that that Dmitri got along with his step parents far more more than Marie did. I think this was because he was more the type to, and as well, he might not have longed for his father so much, because he was a bit younger and different in personality. That might have made it easier to accept his life. I am not sure Marie brought out the worst in Ella, I guess I tend to think that Marie didn't want to be in that stiuation, and she was unhappy, and whatever her step parents were like, did not want it. Maybe Ella knew that?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 17, 2006, 10:10:31 AM
The upbringing of GD was markedly different than that of a Grand Duchess. Marie was brought up to get married into a dynastic marriage and bear children. She was cultured and intelligent.  She sensed (according to her biography) that certain things were expected of her as young as the age of 5.  She resented the restrictions put upon her as a girl/woman in the Imperial Court, imo, and probably projected that resentment onto the closest woman around which was Ella. She definitely would rather have been w/her father and her mother's family.  She speaks highly of her mother's Greek Royal Family in her memoirs and how much of a let down it was to go back to the rigors of her Romanov upbringing once the visit was over. So, yes, I doubt it would have mattered who her stepparents were, IMO she would have much rather have been with her father and her mother's extended family.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2006, 11:12:27 AM
Yes, the projection onto Ella seems true, although I was wondering if she, by any chance was treated more coldly by Ella because of the fact that Ella sensed the resentment she might have? But, I think what you say is more true, because Ella was a very kindhearted woman, and it seems to me that she would not have been one to act in this way. Marie was kind of a cold woman, although by all accounts interesting one; she and Ella were both remarkable personalities, and it is unfortunate that they didn't get along. What, does anyone know, was Marie's reaction to news of Ella's death?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 17, 2006, 11:19:34 AM
I haven't finished MP memoirs but I do know that she tried to emulate Ella in entering the convent as an adult.  maybe this says something for the respect and love she eventually came to find in Ella. So certainly upon her death, as in all the victims, she would have been devastated. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 12:41:12 PM
I think Marie P did accepted her in the end, and must be sad at her passing.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 17, 2006, 01:10:36 PM
Absolutely.  With Ella's death, the rest of the Romanovs nightmare probably became more pronounced.  After all, if they could do that to such a pious woman w/no actual Romanov blood, the new regime certainly wouldn't think twice about eliminating even the most minor members of the family.  Besides being sad, I believe they were profoundly shocked and terrified. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2006, 09:30:38 PM
I think they were more shocked that the entire family of Nicholas II were killed off.   ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 19, 2006, 07:49:38 PM
Yes, that seems true. I am sure many were shocked and saddened at Ella's death who were relatives, but I was just wondering whether Marie P ever had any regrets about her youth, and maybe how she regarded her stepmother/ aunt when she heard about it. But then, from the way she eventually depicted her in her memoirs, one would not think so. This is because had Ella's death made her think that way, she might have written her memoirs from a different perspective- but maybe she had that perspective, and it did not last?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2006, 07:58:07 PM
Marie doesn't strike me as one who was too self-analytical nor one who looked backwards.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2006, 10:13:26 PM
Yes I agree with you on that. Marie P was just that.  ::)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 08:11:30 AM
Yes, and even if she had looked backwards, then she would not have had a different view, perhaps. That is the way it strikes me any way.. Marie was rather practical, although she did idealize her absent father and wished she could grow up living with them, which suggests she wasn't a person who wasn't without some regrets. Anyway, was not Marie a person who had the coldest views on record of Ella- I would believe so anyway...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 20, 2006, 08:18:10 AM
Coldest, yes. The only other negative portrayal I remember reading was by Catherine Radziwill (whose books are always to be taken with a pile, not a grain, of salt) who was very spiteful towards her. She repeated the rumors of flirtations and affairs (with Paul, I think, it's been awhile) and wasn't impressed with her convent at all--basically calling it a sham. Radziwill (who sometimes wrote under a pseudonym, Paul Vassili) is not a reputable witness to the events she wrote about. I don't know what the basis of her extreme dislike of Ella was.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 12:01:11 PM
Well, that dislike was most likely not personal, I don't think. Did she ever know Ela at all, or maybe she was just trying to be sensational with these assertations? I think Marie and Ella just had a complicated relationship, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 20, 2006, 05:58:26 PM
I think it was the living togather situation that made the relationship worse. Both have issues that needed to be addressed. Ella's childlessness and Marie's resentment of being seperated from her beloved father.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 21, 2006, 10:30:22 AM
Yes, I don't think it was the best sitiuation for either one of them. ;) Dmitri later was not under her influence as much, in later years, but I think he always retained fond memories of her. Camera and the Tsars says that Marie thought Dmitri shared her attitude towards everything, but he never really said. I tend to think he had a better opinion, and he and Marie were quite close, so he might not have wanted to say if he did.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 21, 2006, 07:56:53 PM
I agree...According to family sources Dimitri got along with Ella fine, unlike Marie P.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 21, 2006, 11:41:15 PM
I agree...According to family sources Dimitri got along with Ella fine, unlike Marie P.  ???

I have noticed a tendency on some threads - and this is one of them - to oversimplify the relationships between various family members, such as "they got along fine" (and I don't mean to single you out in this, Eric).

Here's the thing: Dmitri and Marie both had completely different circumstances after Serge's death and of course different relationships with Grand Duchess Elizabeth. (and I really would prefer if we can make reference to these individuals on occasion by their proper styles - if we always refer to the Grand Duchess as "Ella" it makes it sounds as if we know her - and of course, we don't!).

Dmitri was considered an adult at age 16 when he took his oath and was able to go away to school. Thus, the Grand Duke's place in Elizabeth's llife did not preclude her from becoming a nun - or doing anything else for that matter. Thus, they were able to have a much simpler and straight-forward relationship. Also, GD Elizabeth was a very beautiful woman at every age, so doubtless she was comfortable with him and he admiring of her. Simple.

When it came to GD Marie Pavlovna, it was a different matter. Everyone expected MP to remain with Ella until she married. It was unthinkable for an unmarried grand duchess to have her own household. So, even though Grand Duchess Marie P. was older than her brother, Ella's desire to move on with her life was impacted by MP's single state. So, she arranged a marriage for her. Except, MP didn't want to get married but didn't know how to get out of it, either. Thus was born more tension in their relationship.

But, this did not mean "they didn't get along". Their relationship was more complex than that. In many ways, Marie admired her aunt and sought to emulate her once she was free of her unwanted marriage.

And, both were devastated by Grand Duchess Elizabeth's murder.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2006, 02:13:25 AM
Well...The title of this thread was Ella and her foster children , Marie Pavlovna and Dimitri. Perhaps we should change it to Grand Duchess Elizabeth too.

Anyway I agree that both (Marie P & Dimitri) would be devesated by the loss of death during the relavolutions of so many loved ones. However judging from the tone of her autobio, it seems that Marie P still has unsolved issues with her Aunt Ella.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 24, 2006, 04:37:49 PM
It seems she did. I think had she been completely at peace with her childhood and her memories of her aunt, she would not have written of her as she did. Clearly, even after her death, and even after some time had gone by,  Grand Duchess Marie P.still felt strong emotions about these things. But then, it would have been surprising if she hadn't in my opinion, given her personality. Grand Duchess Ella and Grand Duchess Marie P might have come into an understanding maybe, had Grand Duchess Ella lived longer, perhaps?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2006, 09:19:39 PM
Maybe...But I am not sure.

Evidently Marie P not letting the past go did contributed to her later failed relationships.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 26, 2006, 05:52:29 PM
Generally, it seems she was someone who did not let the past go. Or, she did not let time change her relationships with people, but she always held firm to a rather stubborn course. People accuse Empress Alexandra of being stubborn, but it seems GD Marie P. was as well, if not more so. GD Ella was never the type to understand what it meant to be stubborn, although I wonder how she responded to what I see to be this trait of GD Marie P.'s.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 26, 2006, 07:55:37 PM
I guess negatively...Ella can charm and try to influrence, but against a wall of stubborness she cannot do much (like her sister Alicky). Marie P did admire Ella's beauty & style but she never accepted her as a surragate mother, and resent the seperation from her father. Although it was Serge who insisted that they (Marie P & Dimitri) lived with them. Ella's own thoughts on the matter were not mentioned.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 28, 2006, 10:15:24 AM
I think Ella most likely at least accepted having stepchildren. She had been close to their mother, so she must have been fine with taking her children in, as long as that is what her husband wanted. Sergei might have been the motivating influence, but I think Ella accepted it. Sergei wanted it, and was the driving force behind it.Ella might have been ambivalent, but I think she wasn't not nice to them because of this or anything.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 28, 2006, 11:10:31 AM
Ella deferred to Sergei in all things.  So when the issue of taking in the children was pushed by Sergei, she of course would not go against him.  I'm sure it was quite an adjustment but Ella accepted most things in her life in stride, a lesson learned the hard way from childhood.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2006, 07:33:10 PM
I don't think Ella was that pleased at accepting a role as a foster mother. It was fine to entertain children for a while and go back to your lives. Serge's eagerness for the children highlighted Ella's inability in having children, she may also be jealous of having to share Serge with them. I have this feeling since Marie P wrote of Ella distance from her (Dimitri was too small to count). This couple with Marie P's resentment being seperated from her father escarlated their relationship.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 08:14:05 AM
Do you think, however much she may not have liked it, it helped her remember their mother Alexandra of Greece with whom she and Sergei were close as newlyweds? However much she may not have been maternal, Ella, with her compassionate heart was surely one who would want to be kind to the children of a young woman who died tragicallly. But then, she may have thought the best way to honor Alexandra of Greece's memory was to have them be with their father.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 29, 2006, 11:32:34 AM
I don't think Ella was that pleased at accepting a role as a foster mother. It was fine to entertain children for a while and go back to your lives. Serge's eagerness for the children highlighted Ella's inability in having children, she may also be jealous of having to share Serge with them. I have this feeling since Marie P wrote of Ella distance from her (Dimitri was too small to count). This couple with Marie P's resentment being seperated from her father escarlated their relationship.  :(
Yes it's one thing to have children, but for someone not used to that adjustment in the house, it's great if you can give them back.   I don't think Ella felt that their presence in regards to her childlessness bothered her as much as the affection Sergei showed the children.  Not quite jealousy, but certainly feeling that if he could show this affection to them, why not to her all this tiime as his wife?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 01:14:25 PM
Well, he certainly gave them a very warm affection that was surprising in him, and that he never showed his wife. Their affection was different, it was more about an understanding, or intellectual bond than anything else. I think Sergei was disapointed they couldn't have have children, and Ella was maybe more accepting. I don't think they ever blamed each other for not having children, but it could have been a strain. I wonder if Sergei ever thought he was showing more affection to the children than to her? The point you raised was really great!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on November 29, 2006, 01:53:24 PM
Well, he certainly gave them a very warm affection that was surprising in him, and that he never showed his wife. Their affection was different, it was more about an understanding, or intellectual bond than anything else. I think Sergei was disapointed they couldn't have have children, and Ella was maybe more accepting. I don't think they ever blamed each other for not having children, but it could have been a strain. I wonder if Sergei ever thought he was showing more affection to the children than to her? The point you raised was really great!

I always felt that the affection was one of the factors in the "distance" between Marie P. and Ella. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2006, 03:42:04 PM
So, he must have been aware of it? I guess I've always looked for an explanation in the Marie/ Ella relationship without looking for outside factors, but I think you are right. But, whether these women got along or not, they both had an impact on each other. It's too bad that we don't have Ella's side of the story, because only knowing one side of the story with Marie thought is okay, but it would be very interesting what Ella thought.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 29, 2006, 08:31:14 PM
However even from Marie P's version, I don't think Ella came off too bad. Ella aplogized to Marie P for her lack of warmth to her and tried to forget her grief in helping others. She arranged a match for Marie P but never forced her to accept him...just to make up her mind (when she tried to chicken out, it was Irene who reined her back in). When Marie P confidened the episode to Ella years later, she was surprised by the incident and told her frankly (she was a nun by then) that she wouldn't have forced her against her will to marry (although Marie P doubt it...that was her own issue altogather).  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on November 30, 2006, 10:12:39 AM
Yes, the arranged marriage was something that greatly angered and displeased Marie P. It was something that didn't make her happy, although she married a second time, and that didn't make her happy either, and that was her own choice. I think she could not totally condemn Ella, as Ella was hard to condemn, she was a nice person. Even Marie P might have been able to see that, through her bitterness.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2006, 08:34:17 PM
I always believe that Ella had Marie P's best interest at heart. By allying her to one of the most secure Royal Families in Europe, Marie P was set for life of a world of comfort and security. How evious would the exiled Romanov would be ! Yet Marie P was to go her own way. However her in-laws (especially her father-in-law and later her son) continued to bail her out when she was desperate in financial matters in her later years. She actually had a lot to be thankful for. I love to think that Ella would be watching over her even in heaven.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 01, 2006, 08:47:18 AM
It was a complicated step family that Sergei and Ella had. Alexandra of Greece might have wished for her children to be in the most secure and best enviroment for them, but this really wasn't. Sergei was full of the best of intentions, and Ella,whatever her conflicts went along with it. But, whatever the relationships of them with each other, they ended up being connected to each other perhaps deeper than they knew.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 01, 2006, 08:39:21 PM
I agree it was a complicated emotional entanglement...Dimitri seemed to weather it better than Marie P.  ;)

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 08:23:54 AM
Well, that might not have had to do with whether it was a complicated emotional entanglement, which it was, but rather that these two siblings had different personalities. I see it that way, that it might have been different ways of responding to the same sitiuation, in my opinion. There were many differences between brother and sister, and this transcended the sitiuation.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 09:51:19 AM
However it may be...I think it was Marie P 's tenendcy to blame others for her mistakes was the more distasteful. Ella was long dead when she wrote her memoirs, but it seems she still carry a grudge against her... ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on December 06, 2006, 09:55:14 AM
Marie P. also held Ella in great esteem while also placing blame on her.   So it seems their complicated relationship went on (inside Marie P.'s mind at least) long after Ella was gone.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 09:59:01 AM
Yes...It seems that Marie P doesn't know how to get go...Maybe that is why almost every relationship she had failed ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on December 06, 2006, 10:18:49 AM
Possibly.  But since she had whethered a revolution, the absolute regicide of her family including her beloved father, there could be volumes of psychological reasons Marie P.'s relationships went unfulfilled.  She also was a bit spoiled, even after the revolution, imo.  She and Lennart never bonded, perhaps because of the lack of bonding w/her own mother and she didn't seem to mourn much the loss of her infant w/her second husband.  It seems more of a defense mechanism to me.  Possibly, a wall of sorts, so as to prevent future pain of separation and loss. She had seen so much of it.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 12:43:10 PM
Marie P is one of the most interesting personalities of the Romanovs, and one of the more complex. In the other thread, some suggested or seemed to say that part of what made Marie's personality such was her upbringing at Ella and Sergei's hands, or they refuted that suggestion. I agree that it is a great point to bring up, because Marie and Dmitri were undoubtedly shaped by their upbringing, but they were more just that way anyway. Marie would have been the way she was, to some degree no matter where she was raised or by whom. Sorry if I am being redundant, but I thought that point was great, although it wasn't my own. Referencing the title of this thread, were Dmitri and Marie technicallly their foster children, in the sense if being recognized by the Imperial Family as such?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on December 06, 2006, 03:15:05 PM
They were wards of the Emperor but given to the custody of GD Sergei and GD Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 03:30:40 PM
So, they were foster children, then I gather. I just was wondering if they way they used that term technically is the way we would use it. Well, this of all the things about Ella and Sergei execpt their marriage is the most complex. Both no doubt had different feelings about the sitiuation, and it's interesting to wonder what they might have been. Sergei had his dream family through these stepchildren, but Ella did not so much. Sergei's dream come true was these children, and was the family he had, however others wanted to think of it.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on December 06, 2006, 04:26:49 PM
I believe this of Sergei also.  Unfortunately, by this point, it doesn't seem that it was Ella's dream family.  Perhaps she got adjusted to her situation w/him and the no children thing and it became her life.  Then these children interrupt the balance she worked so hard to maintain w/Sergei in their marriage.  Imo, she resented this and perceived it to be an  intrusion on whatever intimacy they were able to achieve.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 06, 2006, 08:36:20 PM
I've just always thought it strange how Sergei's dream family would have turned to be so controversial, and so debated. But, he might have known it would be so, because there wasn't that much precedent in the sitioution of him and his brother's children. Everything about him was controversial anyway. Ella took as it was, whatever her feelings. Dmitri seemed to move beyond it, and Marie P was just a complex personality anyway.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2006, 08:50:49 PM
Yes...Dimitri did moved beyond it, but poor Marie P was stuck in the past... :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on December 07, 2006, 10:13:23 AM
I've just always thought it strange how Sergei's dream family would have turned to be so controversial, and so debated. But, he might have known it would be so, because there wasn't that much precedent in the sitioution of him and his brother's children. Everything about him was controversial anyway. Ella took as it was, whatever her feelings. Dmitri seemed to move beyond it, and Marie P was just a complex personality anyway.

Yes, Sergei's "dream family" has been so debated, but i think he considered himself as their saviour, protecting them from their father's lack of judgement in his second marriage.  Protecting them from scandal and allowing them to be raised in Russia where obviously, the family felt they belonged - with or without Paul. So probably, he considered Paul's new family more of a controversy than his own situation.  As most times w/Poor Sergei, not looking really past the nose on his face - just my opinion. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 07, 2006, 10:51:35 AM
I agree. It's interesting that history would remember it the opposite way, but it was most likely doomed to be so. Grand Duke Paul's second family is seen as understandable now, although perhaps not at the time, it being a morgantic marriage and all. Now, it is seen as understandable, it was a love match. At the time, it was Sergei's family that was most likely more normal to most people, although there were the rumours about his and Ella's marriage.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 08, 2006, 07:59:34 PM
It was widely beieved in Russia that Princess Paley had managed to trap the Grand Duke to marry her after she wore Grand Duchess Alexandra's jewels at the ball. The Dowager Empress saw to it she was kicked out and exile from Russia. Grand Duke Paul felt a sense of duty to marry his disgraced mistress. The couple lived in great style in Paris. There is a photo of Princess Paley and Infanta Eulalia queening it in Paris. One could understand the distress of the moralistic Dowager Empress when she wrote abbout her outraged at Paul lack of duty & loyalty to the Emperor and to the Imperial Family in general.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on December 10, 2006, 05:52:35 PM
Yes, one can. Now, many years later it is easier to see how they were just human, and Paul had already married someone dynastically suitable, and produced two children, one of them a son. At the time, it was all too easy to condemn him, and see bad overtones in his second marriage. Sergei and Ella also knew what it was to be talked about, and to be the subject of rumours. I think their case was worse than that of Paul and his second family, in some ways. But, they were a royal couple that married equally, and Sergei managed to to became stepfather of these two children, and to most the sitiuation would have warranted more approval than Paul and his morgantic marriage and children.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2006, 08:47:49 PM
Indeed ! They deemed Paul's action of selling out the Imperial family. The letters between senior members of the Imperial family were most bitter in their tone in condemenning Paul .  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on December 10, 2006, 08:56:00 PM
There is a photo of Princess Paley and Infanta Eulalia queening it in Paris.

It was at a ball held by one of the French nobility in 1912, I believe. Photos of it made the illustrated magazines of the day.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/clothes/eulaliapsspaleyBall1912w.jpg)

The letters between senior members of the Imperial family were most bitter in their tone in condemenning Paul . 

I had mentioned some of the bitter tone about the marriage some pages back. Some of those excerpts (between NII & MF):

Nicholas wrote to Empress Marie on 20 October 1902 (Paul's remarriage came only 3 years before Serge's death and 11 years after the death of his first wife): "As long ago as last spring...I had a rather stern talk with him, which ended by my warning him of all the consequences his proposed marriage would have for him....I have little doubt as to what is my duty in Uncle Paul's case. The nearer the relative who refuses to submit to our family statutes the graver must be his punishment...in the end, I fear, a whole colony of members of the Russian Imperial Family will be established in Paris with their semi-legitimate and illegitimate wives! God alone knows what times we are living in, when undisguised selfishness stifles all feelings of conscience, duty or even ordinary decency!...I am so deeply indignant about him and his action and can feel no pity for him at all!'

MF responds that: 'I did hope it could be avoided, that in the end he would not marry after all and that his love for his children would prevail--alas, he seems to have forgotten everything--his duty to his children, to his country, service, honour, all, all, have been sacrified....he seems completely blinded and thinks he has acted honourably by marrying her and forgets everything else...you who will have to punish him, because such an act cannot remain unpunished, and, into the bargain, marrying a divorced woman!'
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2006, 12:45:37 AM
Yes...I think it was this bitterness that lead to Serge owning the guardianship of the two children. It was a way for the Imperial Family to punish Paul and also made it be known that the Tsar had the power to strip him of his children since they are also the "children of the state". Sort of like King Charles X stripping Marie Caroline, Duchess of Berry her children when she got pregant and made a missalliance.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 07, 2007, 02:24:44 PM
I just thought one of one other point, although maybe it is far fetched. Perhaps Sergei wanted to be their guardian as well because he thought they would follow his way of life, not the way of life of their father, which after he remarried tended to be self indulgent. Sergei may have wanted them to be more responsible to the dynasty than their father was. He certainly didn't want them influenced by their father.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 07, 2007, 02:38:13 PM
Another thought.  The children frequently stayed w/Sergei and Ella even before he remarried.  The death of his first wife totally destroyed the GD and he was frequently absent from their lives.  Which gave them more reason to idealize him.

Perhaps living w/the couple was considered just a continuation of something that they had already done alot and less disruptive than going to live w/another relative.  Especially the Tsar and his family who had enought to deal with already. ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 07, 2007, 03:15:02 PM
Yes, I agree with that. At least for Sergei, it was just a continuation. Ella may have seen it differently. If factors had been different, perhaps the transition to them being foster children would been more natural. I think it would have been a more satisfactory arrangement had the personalities involved not been so difficult. I am not sure other members of the Imperial Family saw it as a natural continuation, which it really was, even though it has aroused much more controversy than any natural continuation.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 07, 2007, 03:28:59 PM
Maybe the Tsar saw it that way. He certainly didn't refuse his Uncle.  As for Ella, well....., we know how that started out from MP's memoirs.  You are correct, I believe that the children and GD Paul certainly didn't find anything natural or any continuity about it.  He was summarily stripped of his right to see his children and they were traumatized by their inability to be with their father.  I don't know that they were difficult so much as they felt that it was an unjust punishment suffered by the children.  The Tsar predictably had to keep order in his family, but at SOME cost.  Children are always the losers in such a situation and the family apparently felt Sergei and Ella would provide the stability and love enough to replace their father.  How sad that this could never be, not even in a non royal family.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 07, 2007, 07:29:05 PM
Yes it was punishment for Paul, but somehow the children pay for it too. It was tragic that GD Alexandra died. Had she lived, the family would have been more balanced.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 08, 2007, 09:16:12 AM
Certainly, everyone's life would have been different if the poor GD Alexandra would have lived.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 08, 2007, 11:35:42 AM
Maybe the Tsar saw it that way. He certainly didn't refuse his Uncle.  As for Ella, well....., we know how that started out from MP's memoirs.  You are correct, I believe that the children and GD Paul certainly didn't find anything natural or any continuity about it.  He was summarily stripped of his right to see his children and they were traumatized by their inability to be with their father.  I don't know that they were difficult so much as they felt that it was an unjust punishment suffered by the children.  The Tsar predictably had to keep order in his family, but at SOME cost.  Children are always the losers in such a situation and the family apparently felt Sergei and Ella would provide the stability and love enough to replace their father.  How sad that this could never be, not even in a non royal family.  :(

I think the Tsar did see it as a continuation, and as a natural solution to the whole thing. He had other things to deal with than this issue, and it is known that the morgantic marriages of the family were never favored by him. He got along well with Ella, she was his wife's sister, and in addition I think he got along with Sergei. He certainly knew that the two young royal couples had gotten along more than most, and this might have helped him make that choice. I think today, in modern times, the children would have been kept with their father, because it might be seen as important that they were, and not with their father's brother and his wife, in a sitiuation where there was gossip about their marriage, and darker talk about Sergei. This was 19th century Russia, though band not modern day America. For that date and time it must have seemed like an ideal solution. Perhaps it was only later that the shadows came to be visible.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 08, 2007, 11:43:02 AM
The Tsar considered Paul a complete disgrace and agreed w/Sergei that he should have limited if any contact with his children so as not to influence them.  NII was having problems reigning all these wayward Grand Dukes in.  His father AIII had cleaned house internally before tackling external problems.  When they saw pliable NII they simply did whatever they wanted.  NII thought that the family should set an example for the Russian people. 

But you are right in modern times the kids would be with the surviving parent. In addition, we can't apply 21st century American mores to 19th century Russia.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 08, 2007, 05:02:09 PM
Yes, so at least the Tsar felt that he was keeping Paul's children away from his influence, because he had been such a scandal to the dynasty, although there were other ones the Czar had to deal with as well, but there were no kids involved. I think Sergei as well accepted this line of reasoning, that he was raising them in the way they should go, and not just for personal reasons. Personal reasons mattered more, but I think he felt some duty to keep them away from their father, on his part. It would have been interesting what course Dmitri might have followed had not the revolution happened, I think it might have been much like his father, and not at like a responsible member of the dynasty. Marie P didn't always act as responsible member of the dynasty either. I think them being raised that way produced the opposite effect than was intended, because there was some resentment, and resentment and idealization bred as much trouble as it might have been to be under their father's influence, and actually worse.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 08, 2007, 06:55:17 PM
The Tsar had exiled Paul and then Kirill followed w/his relationship w/Ducky.  Clearly the Tsar was appalled by the Grand Duke's-gone-wild situation in his family and their carefree attitudes for his edicts and the laws of the family.  The last straw was his brother Michael morganatic marriage to his twice divorced mistress and subsequent birth of his illigetimate son.

Perhaps the Tsar had begin to rethink his banishment degree, but by then the damage to the children of Paul was done. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 08, 2007, 08:37:00 PM
I think it would have been better if Nicky & Alicky took on the two instead of Sergei & Ella. Certainly Dimitri later became their ward, but I think it would be better to grow up with a growing family than one who has no experience. I think even KK & Marva would have been better... ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 09, 2007, 10:17:27 AM
I'm not sure about that.  It could have gone either way if that were the case, IMO.  Nicky and Alix had a full plate and the arrival of the two children there as a lasting home could have greatly contributed to the stress of THEIR situation as well as the children being brushed to the side due to the illness of the heir. 

Sergei lavished them w/attention. Something MP even admits to.  As a childless couple, in the eyes of many this was a great solution for the children and Sergei & Ella.  Since Sergei vied for the opportunity, the Tsar didn't refuse.  Perhaps KK & Marva weren't interested. ???

GD Dimitri became their ward later on when he was much older and possibly wouldn't have required as much attention than if he would have been a small child.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 09, 2007, 12:54:19 PM
I think it would have been better if Nicky & Alicky took on the two instead of Sergei & Ella. Certainly Dimitri later became their ward, but I think it would be better to grow up with a growing family than one who has no experience. I think even KK & Marva would have been better... ???

In the circumstances, which were certainly rather hard ones, I feel that the thing that was actually done was best. Sergei and Ella had been close to both their parents, before one died and the other disgraced the family. They were the most natural choice besides the father himself, even though  it all didn't turn out perfectly. It was good they were with some familiar people who had been close to their parents, and were close relatives. I think they would certainly have done worse anywhere else.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 09, 2007, 03:33:54 PM
Yes. At the time, Sergei and Ella seemed better candidates. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 11, 2007, 07:22:52 PM
Yes..."SEEMED" better only. I always got the feeling that Ella did not relish the idea of being a parent 24 hours a day. She would be a graceful, kind and attentive Aunt for at most half a day, but a mother to two orphans who needed such attention ? No I don't think that pleased her at all.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Rachael89 on February 12, 2007, 02:03:45 PM
I just received Maria P's memoirs in the post today, and I must say they are absolutely enthralling, the most well written and interesting bio of any Romanov I've ever read, what's more impressive is that she wrote it herself.

As for her attitude to Sergei and Ella (in particular) I think her resentment was perfectly understandable. She saw them as keeping her from her beloved father, who it seems wanted them to be with him, and Sergei comes across as being VERY posessive of both her and Dmitri, one quote she gave him I found quite creepy to be honest, with Sergei saying, "It is I who am your father now and you are my children," I'm sure he meant it with the best of intentions, but to a child it must of seemed like he was trying to displace their father.

I also found one thing she said about Ella that made me feel sorry for the poor girl, seeing Ella in a beautiful dress, Maria said:

"Oh Auntie, you look like a picture of a page in a fairy story!"

And Ella responded, "Fry (her nurse), you must really teach her not to make personal remarks." It seems to be that Ella didn't really understand, or particuarlly like them as children, and she thought they drew Sergei's attention from her though of course her coldness is probably largely a result of her up-bringing.

It seems that as she grew, Maria greatly respected Ella, and admired her piety and selflessness, but could never really love her. I think that Maria had a deeply unhappy childhood, and desperately wanted to  bbe with her father, despite his re-marriage, that you can clearly tell hurt her terribly.

Of course, she may of embellished it to some extent, but I don't beelieve she would tell and outright lie, and I beleive her preceptions fo Ella and Sergei ndid have some truth in them.

Best

Rachael
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Janet_W. on February 12, 2007, 03:01:01 PM
I agree that her memoirs are among the best in terms of both style and content. If you haven't yet read her biography posted at this website, you'll want to do so; Maria Pavlovna the younger was quite a character and a real survivor.

One of the reasons, I think, that the work of Charles Dickens endures is that he had a special talent for presenting the perceptions of his young protagonists. As we become older we develop a different sensibility, but when young so much is either new or strange to us--often venturing into the surreal--and we often don't have the experience and automony to properly understand and cope with it.

It's not difficult to imagine the solemn, round-faced and highly observant Marie being a disarming, even disturbing presence at the home of her Aunt Ella and Uncle Sergei. Many women of that time period would have had the same reaction--"Fry, you must really teach her not to make personal remarks"--but of course to an insecure child this type of remark would be bone-crushing. If Ella had made up for that verbal slip with subsequent warmth and involvement, Marie would have been likely to have either forgotten the remark or simply chalked it up to her aunt having a stressful day. But the remark remained with Marie all of her life, and I'm sure many if not most of us also could relate such episodes from our own childhoods. A dear friend of mine--she was like a great-aunt to me, although we were not related--could still remember, way into her late eighties, one particular episode from her childhood: She'd missed only one word on a spelling test and brought the paper home from school, intensely proud of her score, only to hear her mother say "Why didn't you get them ALL correct?" Seventy-plus years later, the incident still hurt.

In Marie's case, unfortunately, she did not transcend her emotionally arid childhood and evolve into a warm and loving mother. It is not an easy thing to do, to overcome the psychological impairments of one's childhood, but it IS the mark of an unselfish and compassionate person. Still, I do give Marie numerous points for sheer survival.

It's true that other more resiliant children might not have been as affected by the strange parenting of Ella and Sergei. But the frequently dysfunctional relatives of Marie and Dmitri's childhood years do seem to have made a negative impact, else why would Marie and Dmitri have grown up with so many dysfunctons of their own?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 12, 2007, 08:37:56 PM
I really think that Marie P had an axe to grind on Ella. I have no problem believing that Ella was forced into accpting the two children into her home. Yet I do not find other instances of Ella being nasty to children. On the contary, she usually went out her way to be nice to them (Greek Minny, Missy...Felix Yussopov). After reading Christopher Warrick's book on Ella (especially Marie P's correspondence with her fiance Wilhelm). I do believe in some cases she does have selected memory. Which is to say that it should be read with a grain of salt.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 14, 2007, 12:32:49 PM
I agree that MP memoirs were biased.  Ella was raised in the more strict and formal German/English fashion.  Though they are loving and wonderful people, this nanny upbringing didn't encourage their charges to be demonstrative in affection.  I find the Russian children were much more demonstrative in showing love and affection.  Perhaps, Ella wasn't used to this outward display of emotion and handled it the way it would have been handled in her own youth.  That isn't to say Ella didn't love children.  On the contrary.

Or perhaps, MP just caught Ella on a bad day ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 14, 2007, 01:59:36 PM
Well, two of the stand out things in the life of Ella, are her and Sergei's marriage and her and Marie P. I think being a child at the time, that remark might have hurt more than was intended, especially with someone like Marie P, I agree with Janet_W there. Ella might have had no idea that she would remember it forever, but Marie P did, and kind of held it as a grudge. I think Ella would have been surprised by Marie P quoting that about her parenting, and using it set the tone for how she was depicted in her memoirs. Or, possibly Ella might have been ambivalent, because perhaps in the end Ella was an understanding, practical person, and it wasn't her idea to take this on, so she would not have been to blame for a remark she might have made in haste, in her opinion. She was from another time as well, and perhaps what to Marie P seemed something worth saying something about, would have seemed to Ella like a routine remark.   :-\
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 14, 2007, 02:13:50 PM
I agree. Ella probably thought it was the norm, having been raised the same way.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 14, 2007, 03:47:59 PM
Certainly. As well, how much of that did Marie P feel at the time ( although I can see her feeling that), and how much did she perhaps see through selective memory, and bias in terms of that remark, which I think she seemed to imply summed up Ella's attitude towards her and her role as step parent in general? I would think there maybe some later feeling coloring how she might have seen that remark, based on the way we know she saw things. But, maybe she didn't even know that herself.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 14, 2007, 09:49:23 PM
I agree that it is most likely that Ella may had a bad day. Her interactions with other children does not point to the fact that she was usually nasty. Another point of notice is that Dimtri (by most accounts) does not seem to share his sister's dislike of their aunt. So my belief is that they simply did not get along...pure and simple.  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 15, 2007, 06:32:36 PM
MP did probably harbor resentment anyway regarding the situation she and her brothers were forced into, so anything said by Ella could quite possibly been misconstrued or misquoted. ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 15, 2007, 07:36:50 PM
Hmmm...I do think there was some resentment that the children were forced upon her. I don't think she dislike MP, just the situation. The telling thing is that once they were reconcilled (after Serge's death), MP continue to doubt her aunt's intentions. It was sure telling of a grudge. Perhaps MP did grudge her for not allowing her father to come into her life sooner.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 19, 2007, 03:44:11 PM
There are so many unanswered questions and routes for speculation in all of this. Certainly MP was aware when she wrote her memoirs how she was presenting Ella to history as a maternal figure, and I think among so many other reasons, that is partly why she did this. Whatever anybody would say ( not that is all that much on the subject), Ella would stand out this way. I suppose that is indicative of a grudge.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 20, 2007, 08:01:59 PM
Yes...That is what I think. Even in her memoirs, Ella 's image improved as the chapters went. Only MP's continured mistrust of Ella remained.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 21, 2007, 01:31:14 PM
I wonder why Ella's image improved as the book went on? I guess maybe she thought she had set the tone, and didn't need to go into the same stuff perhaps. :-\ I agree, MP didn't trust Ella nor perhaps anyone involved in her childhood, but perhaps who she didn't really trust was herself, in the end. She had the stereotypes of people in her life, in her past, and didn't trust herself to go beyond that.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 21, 2007, 02:05:12 PM
I don't think MP trusted anybody because in her perception, everybody had failed her.  IMO, her childhood shaped her opinions of everything in her life and everybody.  I think she felt let down, by her father (though she wouldn't admit it), The Tsar, her Uncle and of course Ella. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2007, 07:03:18 PM
Yes...however she was the kind who dwells upon it instead of letting it go. Dimitri had the same deal but he decided to move on and seldom look back (unlike MP). The failed relationships in MP's life was another indication of her failure to take responsibility of her life and bond with others. It was left to those who are close to her to pick up the pieces and resure her (her father-in-law and later her son).  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: imperial angel on February 22, 2007, 09:39:04 AM
Well, I agree she did feel let down by everyone. In all we know of her reactions, they all speak to that, that is the perfect way to put it. But, was she justified in feeling that way, especially in regards to Ella? I don't think she was, because even if Ella wasn't sometimes perfect in regards to this complicated sitiuation, I don't believe she ever let Marie down intentionally. Certainly, like in regards to that remark she did say something Marie thought of as hurtful, but in all Ella's actions towards Marie, I don't believe there is one thing that could be regarded as letting her down.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2007, 07:15:36 PM
I agree...I think Ella fulfilled her duty as a gurardian and left her in good martial and financial care before she became a nun. She also gave her a share of her collection of jewels and shelled out her own money for MP's new house in Sweden. The failed life was quite MP's own doing.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on February 23, 2007, 06:21:49 AM
I never understood Marie's unhappiness in Sweeden,  There is more to this story than we will ever know.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on February 23, 2007, 07:22:55 AM
I never understood Marie's unhappiness in Sweeden,  There is more to this story than we will ever know.

TampaBay

Of course always there is more than we know. But she just did not love her Swedish husband,she hated to be like a cageling, and probably she blamed herself for being weak when the Romanov family was arranging her alliance with Prince Wilhem as she definitely did not want him as a helpmate. I think these reasons are enough to be unhappy in a far country if you are a young woman with conflicting emotions and homesickness.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 23, 2007, 09:05:20 AM
I agree...I think Ella fulfilled her duty as a gurardian and left her in good martial and financial care before she became a nun. She also gave her a share of her collection of jewels and shelled out her own money for MP's new house in Sweden. The failed life was quite MP's own doing.  :(
Absolutely.  IMO, Ella far from let her down.  It was MP's perception of Ella that disappointed her, not what Ella was really trying to do.
I think in Dimitri's case, apart from being a boy, he was a baby and had no memories of his mother and his father had distanced himself through his grief, but Marie remembered those early days and had much to compare to.  Even though her life didn't work out the way she THOUGHT it should have, it seems very sad that she should only have bad memories of a woman who had good intentions at heart and thoughts of her welfare.  Especially since nobody else seemed to be concerned.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on February 23, 2007, 01:30:33 PM
I never understood Marie's unhappiness in Sweeden,  There is more to this story than we will ever know.

TampaBay

Of course always there is more than we know. But she just did not love her Swedish husband,she hated to be like a cageling, and probably she blamed herself for being weak when the Romanov family was arranging her alliance with Prince Wilhem as she definitely did not want him as a helpmate. I think these reasons are enough to be unhappy in a far country if you are a young woman with conflicting emotions and homesickness.

I agree. In letters to William she stated that she was looking forward to the freedom she would have as a married woman, not a child or a ward. Coming to the Swedish court which was very traditional and strict was a real blow to her. Not having the consolation of a loving marriage, it was just too much and she possessed a personality that would enable her to demand a divorce rather than just accepting the situation.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 23, 2007, 02:59:47 PM
I agree.  If she had a support system in Sweden from her husband or a true love match, things may have worked out differently and she may have felt differently about becoming a mother.

She absolutely had the type of personality to not just sit and take it.  I think she felt she'd had to do that all her life up until she mader her own decision to leave her husband.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2007, 07:55:46 PM
True...But in MP's case is too easily throwing the towel in a relationship. Her first marriage was only the first instance (she had 2 more failed relationships after that). People then to fall out with her (even her brother at one point). I think I would say that MP was quite "damaged" in that respect. Instead of seeing why and what went wrong in her life, she conviently pointed fingers at others. No wonder Greek Minny (her no-nonsense aunt) branded her as "selfish and difficult".  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: TampaBay on February 24, 2007, 09:39:14 AM
I agree.  If she had a support system in Sweden from her husband or a true love match, things may have worked out differently and she may have felt differently about becoming a mother.


How do you konow Marie did not have a support system in Sweden from her husband?  I would love to hear Wilhelm's side of story.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on February 24, 2007, 05:21:48 PM
Well of course I don't know and would also love to hear Wilhelm's side as well ;)  I only made my only inference that most women if at least in love could quite possibly have overcome the homesickness and other factors that made MP act the ways she did. Just my opinion.  I guess I should have clarified. ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2007, 07:43:06 PM
Wonder if Wilhelm's letters and diary are available for research ?  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: taffie on April 19, 2007, 06:59:30 PM
I have read both of Marie's books "Education of a Princess" and "A Princess in Exicle"  and both books are extremely well written and captivating.  I think Marie had a struggle losing her Father after he was banished by Nicholas.  Reading the chains of replies as to why Marie did not get long with Ella, possibly I think you guys might be a tad hard on Marie.  Why would Marie make up how she was treated by Ella.  But if you read her books both Marie and Ella formed a good relationship towards the end of Ella's life and Marie writes after her divorce how she wanted to emulate Ella's life and make something out of her life for the good of Russia.  So although their relationship got of to a rocky start in the end Marie was influnenced my Ella's and her good deeds.  I recommend reading Marie's books.
It would have been interesting to see what Marie would have done or accomplished had there not been a revolution. Marie's life after the revolution was a constant struggle for survival and a story of empowerment and after the lose of family, money, country, she created a new exsistance for herself out of pure determenation to survive.
David~
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 20, 2007, 04:17:17 PM
If she had made up with her Aunt, the tone would be less bitter about Ella in her books. No...she still blamed her in her way.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: taffie on April 20, 2007, 05:24:56 PM
Hey Eric,

You have a valid point, Marie did blame her but I think she came to terms with her Aunt and attempted to emulate her. 
At one point she begged her Aunt Ella to incorporate her into her order of Nuns.   I read a reply posted under the Discussion fourm "Maria Pavlovna and Prince Lennart" where someone is writing a book on Marie,  it will be interesting to see what she has come up with on this topic.  It's really all personal interpretation and I can understand your ponit of view.  Have your read the books currently out on Ella?  They are really good and I recommend them highly- here's the link to the best one:
http://www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Duchess-Russia-Hugo-Mager

David
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2007, 01:00:18 PM
Yes I read ALL of them (since like Prince Charles, Ella is a favourite of mine). I don't think she was serious in emmulating her Aunt. Her last two relationships after Wilhelm were failures and she was reduced to a pathetic economic state. I think Princess Andrew of Greece was more serious in following her Aunt's footsteps. Marie was a disillussioned woman.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eurohistory on April 26, 2007, 11:32:32 AM
Yes a very serious nun, who smoked, drank and played canasta...

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 26, 2007, 08:02:50 PM
Well if you compare her to Marie...then she was serious. At least she finally got the act togather (even after entering a nut house). Poor Marie have no idea of how to live her life and had to be rescued by her ex-father-in-law and dutiful son.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on April 27, 2007, 12:42:34 AM
Poor Marie have no idea of how to live her life and had to be rescued by her ex-father-in-law and dutiful son.  :(

Sounds like "poor Marie" was in a total senility. She HAD idea how to live but she was old and need a rest, and by the way Princess Alice in spite of all her independence ended her life under her son and daughter-in-law's roof.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 27, 2007, 03:14:11 AM
True...However she stuck with her lot after being treated for insanity and lived a meaninful life (she bravely saved a Jewish family under her roof and helped them escape from the Nazis). Poor Marie did not have that. After going through a few failed relationships and failed careers...yes she does need a rest. No  :P
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on April 27, 2007, 06:22:19 AM
True...However she stuck with her lot after being treated for insanity and lived a meaninful life (she bravely saved a Jewish family under her roof and helped them escape from the Nazis). Poor Marie did not have that. After going through a few failed relationships and failed careers...yes she does need a rest. No  :P

"Poor Marie did not have that" - What?  Or do you want to say that Maria had been living a waste life during the WW II ? In other words you think that she would have been better  in Europe to save the people from the Nazis?...Everyone has its own ideas to cope with the circumstances and life around, and Maria had ideas how to live meaningfully but in her own way.
Though this is another discussion, not about Maria and her position towards religious life.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 27, 2007, 08:29:33 PM
Well...most agreed that Marie P did not have a meaningful life. That is why she blamed Ella for ruining it for her by being nasty and forcing her to marry at such a young age. I am just saying that she herself was also to blame with her life. Her Aunt Olga A also lived to eat the bread of exile. However she rose above that and became a good artist. Marie's lack of direction and accomplishment was her real problem. Even her relationship with Dimitri was shaky at times.  >:(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on April 28, 2007, 05:40:56 AM
Well...most agreed that Marie P did not have a meaningful life. That is why she blamed Ella for ruining it for her by being nasty and forcing her to marry at such a young age. I am just saying that she herself was also to blame with her life. Her Aunt Olga A also lived to eat the bread of exile. However she rose above that and became a good artist. Marie's lack of direction and accomplishment was her real problem. Even her relationship with Dimitri was shaky at times.  >:(

We don’t speak here about Maria’s relationship with Dmitriy. Moreover we can’t know exactly what was their real relationship.
Seems it’s very fashionable now and on all Forums/articles/books to blame Maria Pavlovna-younger – for her lack of love to children, for her stormy relationship with GDss Ella and many other people, for her wandering life and so on and so on…as if these faults are the heaviest sins. Maria was a controversial person, with conflicting emotions, and why on earth we should blame her for such a personality??...If one can read carefully her memoirs and correspondence then one can understand that she is a not such a nasty lady as someone wants to paint her.
Her ability to survive was unique. She is forever my favourite among all the Romanovs, in spite of all her whims. And comparing her with GDss Olga Alexandrovna is not correct, they were too different, with different personalities and family circumstances .

“Most agreed” that she had a life without any meaning? By whom “most agreed”? Everyone has its own idea WHAT A MEANINGFULL LIFE IS. How do you imagine a meaningfull life for Maria Pavlovna? A quiet family circle with husband and a squadron of children? Or  some great mission in life for exiled Grand Duchess?...Many Royal personages led a waste life but Maria always tried to full her life with some job, work  and helping Russian émigrés.

It’s very easy to adore lovely Royals who were all perfect, with high principles, who never offended anyone and such like. And it’s very easy to blame controversial persons for their behaviour, and much more difficult to understand them. I prefer trying to understand than to blame and state something that I don’t know exactly.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 29, 2007, 08:10:40 PM
Well...It seems like we have a fan of Marie P. However if one reads the new bio on Ella by Christopher Warrick (have you read it ?), one also sees the letters Marie P wrote to Prince Wilhelm of Sweden. It is easy to see why she was view that way. Even her Aunt Minny (Greek Minny, Grand Duchess George of Russia) called her "selfish and difficult". I don't think Marie P should blame Ella for arranging the marriage for her, in fact she should go to Isreal and kiss her tomb for it. Had it not happened, she would have devoid of her last lifeline (money and help from her ex-father-inlaw and son).  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on April 30, 2007, 01:47:22 AM
Well...It seems like we have a fan of Marie P. However if one reads the new bio on Ella by Christopher Warrick (have you read it ?), one also sees the letters Marie P wrote to Prince Wilhelm of Sweden. It is easy to see why she was view that way. Even her Aunt Minny (Greek Minny, Grand Duchess George of Russia) called her "selfish and difficult". I don't think Marie P should blame Ella for arranging the marriage for her, in fact she should go to Isreal and kiss her tomb for it. Had it not happened, she would have devoid of her last lifeline (money and help from her ex-father-inlaw and son).  :(

Yes WE have a fan of Maria Pavlovna.I read the Warwick bio and I read all Maria's bios, her letters to Wilhelm are published in a Russian book. It's a different topic - don't mix up.
As always Eric you listen to and don't hear. We speak about Maria's last years of life and their meaningfullness and not about kissing Ella's tomb or what Greek Minny thought about Maria.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 01, 2007, 02:35:01 AM
Marie P's last years were in total obsurity. She did not wrote any more books nor being written about. Maybe you should do it since you seem to have quite an interest in her later (and less known years). It would be nice for others to lean more about her.
 ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: zolishka on August 27, 2007, 05:01:29 PM
Indeed! She is sometimes mentioned in books on swedish royals, but it is never enough. Her sons autobiography is awsome, but... I long for a proper biography of this ever faschinating woman!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 09:00:50 PM
Could not agree more.  :)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on August 28, 2007, 02:49:33 AM
. I long for a proper biography of this ever faschinating woman!

Such bio is existed but in Russian.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2007, 08:06:24 PM
We need one in English or French. The two languages she published in exile to complete the picture.   :)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Linnea on August 29, 2007, 09:09:47 AM
. I long for a proper biography of this ever faschinating woman!

Such bio is existed but in Russian.

There is a good academic one in German too.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on August 29, 2007, 02:04:04 PM
. I long for a proper biography of this ever faschinating woman!

Such bio is existed but in Russian.

There is a good academic one in German too.

Really? What's the title of the book?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Linnea on August 29, 2007, 03:31:55 PM
"Grossfürstin Marija Pavlovna: Ein Leben in Zarenreich und Emigration. Vom Wandel aristokratischer Lebensformen im 20. Jahrhundert" by Marion Mienert - the book is actually her dissertation.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2007, 08:40:21 PM
Is it available to buy online ?  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on August 30, 2007, 04:18:48 AM
"Grossfürstin Marija Pavlovna: Ein Leben in Zarenreich und Emigration. Vom Wandel aristokratischer Lebensformen im 20. Jahrhundert" by Marion Mienert - the book is actually her dissertation.

Thanks :). I guess the book is quite rare and difficult to find.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2007, 04:31:56 AM
That much I suspect. I was in Germany this Spring and did not see this book on any bookstore shelf.  :(
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Paul on October 23, 2007, 07:43:44 PM
Another thought.  The children frequently stayed w/Sergei and Ella even before he remarried.  The death of his first wife totally destroyed the GD and he was frequently absent from their lives.  Which gave them more reason to idealize him.

Perhaps living w/the couple was considered just a continuation of something that they had already done alot and less disruptive than going to live w/another relative.  Especially the Tsar and his family who had enought to deal with already. ???

Thank you, Lori. It makes perfect sense. Sergei's fosterage would, indeed, have been less disruptive than most other possible arrangements. It was probably the kindest, given the circumstances & the times.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2007, 09:26:08 PM
Well...I do question the wisdom of letting the children stay with a childless couple. It may be better to let Sasha and Minnie take them over.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on October 23, 2007, 09:33:09 PM
Maybe it was felt that they would be better off with a childless couple--they wouldn't get lost in the mix and wouldn't be only children either. Paul and Serge were much closer than they were with Alexander and Alexandra and Ella were very close as well. It would've seemed like the perfect solution at the time. Besides, by the time Paul actually lost custody (when he remarried), as opposed to just being a rather absentee father, Sasha was dead.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2007, 09:36:54 PM
True...However it seems that Minnie had better qualifications as a mother figure than Ella (saintly though she might be).  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on October 25, 2007, 10:27:19 AM
One thing is certain is that Sergei vied for the role of foster parent to the children.  He took special care of Dimitri as an infant.  Perhaps he filled both mother and father figures.  Seemingly according to MP Ella was indifferent or whatever the case may be.  But IMO, they were in the best position to take the children. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 25, 2007, 05:00:25 PM
Sergei seems to have a two personalties, some say he was nasty and weird, others kind, sweet and gentle????
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2007, 09:18:22 PM
I don't think anyone thinks of Serge as kind and gentle...I suppose not even Ernst & VMH ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 26, 2007, 12:27:42 AM
I don't think anyone thinks of Serge as kind and gentle...

Grand Duke KR did think.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2007, 04:28:47 AM
He did not think that what the coronation diaster came, KK was shocked by the way Serge handle things. Not very gentle here...Is he ?  ;)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: lori_c on October 26, 2007, 11:56:15 AM
Sergei seems to have a two personalties, some say he was nasty and weird, others kind, sweet and gentle????

Sergei seems to be one of the more enigmatic subjects here on the Forum and most have a very strong opionion of him, but regardless of Khodynda or whether or what he may have been considered, Ella wrote to her father that the more one comes to know Sergei the more one comes to love him.
She remained devoted to him all her life and their relationship of course is the subject of another thread.  That being said he also provided a stable regimented environment for two young children who really  did need this at that juncture in their lives.  Their father, though loving, was absent a lot.  Sergei was always there for them and Ella as well. 

Had Paul indeed been given permission to bring his children with him when he left, it is doubtful that they would have had this structure and discipline and even the education they received - even though Paul  loved them very much.  They may have ended up as dolls trailing willy nilly behind a child as Paul did have his own agenda to pursue. 
Not to mention the grief he must have felt. 

Also, Sergei left them financially taken care of through Ella when he was killed. After Sergei's death, Ella was considered one of the wealthiest Grand Duchesses at that time.  Though Paul certainly did have his own wealth, with his new family, MP and Dimitri would not have enjoyed the same status and position in court due to the morganatic marriage situation.  Had they been allowed to leave with him that is.  Which of course was not even an option at the time.

Notwithstanding, MP would hold Ella responsible for not being what MP thought she should have been.  IMO, having only read MP's version of it, I tend to want to take some of it with a grain of salt.  Of course, that's just me. MP does mention Sergei being extremely overprotective of them and considered them his own children.  He had a big problem with them even referring to their own father as he considered himself in that role then. 
Some of this may be keys to unlocking this very guarded and reserved man.  Hopefully someday, something will surface to help us understand him further instead of only judging him.  Considering that their are many more things in the bowels of the Kremlin in regards to the  IF, it is likely that somebody may just find something in those regards.  Not to exonerate him for what he proved by his actions that he was truly responsible for.  But maybe to understand his pscyhe and what was the force that drove him.  I hope that someday we will also find more writings by Ella as well.  Though this seems doubtful as she may have burned her correspondence just as her sister did. But it would be nice to hear Ella's side of things.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2007, 11:02:42 PM
Hate to drop a bomb shell here but according to Marie Coburg, Ella was not left wealthy at all. There seem to be a big difference between those born Grand Duchesses than those married into it. To top it off, Ella was childless and thus cannot recieve money from her offspring's trust funds. I only found that out quite recently. After Serge died, Ella was left comfortable, but not rich by Romanov Standards.  ???
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 26, 2007, 11:56:42 PM
He did not think that what the coronation diaster came, KK was shocked by the way Serge handle things.

He was shocked but that did not mean he turned away in disgust.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 27, 2007, 12:00:05 AM
  Considering that their are many more things in the bowels of the Kremlin in regards to the  IF, it is likely that somebody may just find something in those regards.  Not to exonerate him for what he proved by his actions that he was truly responsible for.  But maybe to understand his pscyhe and what was the force that drove him.  I hope that someday we will also find more writings by Ella as well.  Though this seems doubtful as she may have burned her correspondence just as her sister did. But it would be nice to hear Ella's side of things.

I am looking forward to the second volume of GD Sergei's bio in Russian with the extracts from his diaries of the 1880s years. The 1st volume is very good.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ashanti01 on October 28, 2007, 03:33:46 AM
  Considering that their are many more things in the bowels of the Kremlin in regards to the  IF, it is likely that somebody may just find something in those regards.  Not to exonerate him for what he proved by his actions that he was truly responsible for.  But maybe to understand his pscyhe and what was the force that drove him.  I hope that someday we will also find more writings by Ella as well.  Though this seems doubtful as she may have burned her correspondence just as her sister did. But it would be nice to hear Ella's side of things.

I am looking forward to the second volume of GD Sergei's bio in Russian with the extracts from his diaries of the 1880s years. The 1st volume is very good.

Really? I really need to learn how to read Russian. If I may ask, did the first volume have any extracts from his diaries and if it did, did it give you a different view of him? I always thought that if one could view his letters or diaries one could have more of an insight as to what type of man he really was. Sergei is by far one of the most intresting GD of his time.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 28, 2007, 07:10:20 AM
  Considering that their are many more things in the bowels of the Kremlin in regards to the  IF, it is likely that somebody may just find something in those regards.  Not to exonerate him for what he proved by his actions that he was truly responsible for.  But maybe to understand his pscyhe and what was the force that drove him.  I hope that someday we will also find more writings by Ella as well.  Though this seems doubtful as she may have burned her correspondence just as her sister did. But it would be nice to hear Ella's side of things.

I am looking forward to the second volume of GD Sergei's bio in Russian with the extracts from his diaries of the 1880s years. The 1st volume is very good.

Really? I really need to learn how to read Russian. If I may ask, did the first volume have any extracts from his diaries and if it did, did it give you a different view of him? I always thought that if one could view his letters or diaries one could have more of an insight as to what type of man he really was. Sergei is by far one of the most intresting GD of his time.

Yes, the 1st volume has a lot of extracts from Sergei's diaries of the 1860-1870s years. I shared my impressions here :

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8930.45.html (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8930.45.html)

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8930.60.html (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8930.60.html)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: ashanti01 on October 28, 2007, 12:12:02 PM
Thanks !!!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on September 30, 2008, 01:29:25 PM
Ella with her friends/courtiers and GDss Maria P. and GD Dmitriy P.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/ellampdp.jpg)

Look, Ella is leaning onto Maria P., and her hand (it's barely seen though) is around Maria's waist. Unusual picture meaning their relationship.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2008, 02:05:46 PM
Marie looked pissed. She looked spoiled to me.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 30, 2008, 03:15:18 PM
Ha ha, she a spoiled Princess. not happy if having everything they want. such a pity *rolling eyes* 

Nice Pix Sveta! you always have great ones  and so kind to share with us.  :D
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2008, 06:52:19 PM
Yes. Even her Aunt Marie (Grand Duchess George) wrote she was a bit spoilt.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 01, 2008, 12:50:26 AM
"Spoilt" is not the correct word for MP's situation. She was a foster child, mother died, father was distant and with his 2nd family...MP was more embittered than spoilt, and thus all her conflicting emotions.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 01, 2008, 03:30:27 AM
Are any of the people in the group identyfied? The younger lady looks very much like the children's gouverness Mrs Fry. The elder one seems to be Masha Wassilshtchikova.

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2008, 10:10:13 AM
I think you may be right.

True, but I think Dimitri came out less conflcted as far as his relationship with Ella was considered. I said spolit because new evidence proved that Marie was actually quite looking forward to her marriage to Wilhelm of Sweden. She later blamed Ella (unfairly) pushed her into it. That is what I said about her "spoilt" meaning her inability to take responsibility of her life. Her later relationships shown that too...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on October 03, 2008, 01:02:40 AM
Are any of the people in the group identyfied? The younger lady looks very much like the children's gouverness Mrs Fry. The elder one seems to be Masha Wassilshtchikova.



The elder really could be Maria Wasiltchikova, but I don't think the younger is Mrs Fry, who was an old lady then. There is a photo of her with MP and DP in the early 1890s and she looks rather old.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2008, 09:38:48 AM
Yes...That makes sense. Who was the younger woman then. A lady in waiting ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LenelorMiksi on October 05, 2008, 01:07:03 AM
Marie Pavlovna admits in her memoirs that she looked forward to setting up her own house and being independent.  She also barely knew Wilhelm- unlike her Aunt Ella who was in love with Serge before she married him.  What she regrets is that Ella favored the marriage knowing that the couple were strangers to each other.  Her father was angry when he found out about the marriage- imagine your sister-in-law agreeing to have your teenage daughter married to a man she barely knows.  Arranged marriage may have been common at that time, but not in that particular family.  All of Ella's sisters chose their own husbands, and Ernie married his cousin (albeit reluctantly) who he had known all his life.  One of the reasons Ernie and Victoria Melita got married was because other people pushed them into it. Marie Pavlovna simply went along with her aunt's plan and imagined a better life ahead of her.  Like any teenager, the idea of being grown-up and independent was enticing.  I'm not sure why Ella thought it would be a good idea for her niece to marry someone she barely knew.  I think maybe she should have opposed the marriage until they got to know each other better.  That's what foster parents are supposed to do- make sure rash teenagers don't go out and marry their first boyfriend, not plan the marriage.  Ella made a mistake, and so did Marie Pavlovna. 
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 05, 2008, 11:39:45 AM
Yes...That makes sense. Who was the younger woman then. A lady in waiting ?

Possibly Helene? she was a lady-in-waiting to Maria, or governess. Until Maria married in 1908. I THINK, am not sure.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2008, 03:06:26 PM
First of all Marie was not Ella or any of the Hesse girls. Alice died but Ludwig did a good job as a single parent raising his five surviving children, while Paul ran away and marry his commoner mistress. It was a situation that pushed Marie & Dimitri into Ella and Serge. Dimitri evidently coped better than his sister and had no issues with his Aunt Ella. Marie was spoilt because most felt sorry about their situation (losing a mother (dying) and father (abandoning his dutys and marrying his commoner mistress)). When Ella tried to be firm with her, Marie wrote than she was mean and cold. When Serge died, Ella decided to become a nun. Ella felt Marie restless temperment needed a steady influence in which marriage could give her. She made the match but did not forced her into it (even in Marie's slanted bio, Ella only asked Marie to make up her mind). When Ella fell ill, Marie stated that shewanted to break the engagement, but claimed Irene blackmailed her to do it. Had Marie had an ounce of charecter like Alicky, she would have refused Wilhelm, but she didn't. Years later Marie told Ella the story, her aunt said she didn't know she had second thoughts, and would not force her had she backed out. I tend to believe Ella in this. Anyway the marriage did Marie much good. Even though she was divorced from her husband, her ex-father-in-law (later her son) bailed her out of bad financal situations. Ella would have smile from heaven knowing that her erratic ward was somehow taken care of.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 06, 2008, 12:08:14 AM
First of all Marie was not Ella or any of the Hesse girls. Alice died but Ludwig did a good job as a single parent raising his five surviving children, while Paul ran away and marry his commoner mistress. It was a situation that pushed Marie & Dimitri into Ella and Serge. Dimitri evidently coped better than his sister and had no issues with his Aunt Ella. Marie was spoilt because most felt sorry about their situation (losing a mother (dying) and father (abandoning his dutys and marrying his commoner mistress)). When Ella tried to be firm with her, Marie wrote than she was mean and cold. When Serge died, Ella decided to become a nun. Ella felt Marie restless temperment needed a steady influence in which marriage could give her. She made the match but did not forced her into it (even in Marie's slanted bio, Ella only asked Marie to make up her mind). When Ella fell ill, Marie stated that shewanted to break the engagement, but claimed Irene blackmailed her to do it. Had Marie had an ounce of charecter like Alicky, she would have refused Wilhelm, but she didn't. Years later Marie told Ella the story, her aunt said she didn't know she had second thoughts, and would not force her had she backed out. I tend to believe Ella in this. Anyway the marriage did Marie much good. Even though she was divorced from her husband, her ex-father-in-law (later her son) bailed her out of bad financal situations. Ella would have smile from heaven knowing that her erratic ward was somehow taken care of.

Sources, Eric? Unless you are speculating? And why are you discussing everyone as though they are members of your own family?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2008, 11:01:42 AM
Marie's bio is the place to start. Did Ella forced her to marry Wilhem ? Where are the words ? She only asked her to make a decision, which is different from making a command. Compare that with Alicky (who also lost her mother as a young child), who told QV "I would do it (Marry Eddy) if I am forced to do it but both of them would not be happy.". What a difference ! I think Lisa you should reread the books again. There can be another interpretation from them if one read closely and between the lines. Irene was the one who told Marie "If yoiu tell you Aunt (Ella) you would kill her." Ella had just recovered from an orperation when Marie suddenly thought of calling the whole thing off. We should also see Marie's later track record with men, both failed (after Wihelm). I don't think people can blame Ella for trying to see Marie well settled, it was up to Marie to say yes or no. In fact, in marie's book, Ella was shocked when Marie confided her doubts about her marriage then. She told her niece if she had spoken up, she would not have pressed her on. But Marie did not believe her aunt. It is all in her book.
Title: Grand Duchess Ella versus Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna Junior
Post by: Captain Koala on January 21, 2012, 04:59:20 PM
I just finished re-reading Perry's book The flight of the Romanov's. I was amazed that his opinion of Ella seems entirely based on Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna's (MP) memoirs. He quotes this famous passage:

"I recall one such time when she had dressed for an outing and seemed to me particularly beautiful. It was a simple dress of white muslin but she had her face fixed a new way - gathered, unbound, at the back of her neck by a bow of black silk - and the effect was enchanting. I exclaimed: "Oh! Auntie, you look like the picture of a little page in a fairy story."She turned to my nurse without smiling and spoke in a dry, sharp tone: "Fry, you must really teach her not to make personal remarks."

I guess I'm a little confused by how many historians place so much weight on MP's memoirs. Are there any other examples where Ella was unpleasant to MP or anyone else for that matter?

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 22, 2012, 11:54:51 AM
Eric- Marie was only a young teenager girl then and possibly wanted to please Ella, who was going through her widowhood (almost selfish towards Marie and Dmitri in my opinion); do you really think all girls are ready for making real good decisions at that age? HECK NO! Sometimes when I read your comments, they can be so nasty – quit it!

Marie became a spoiled and self-centered person, not going to lie! she was like any Princess or rich girl would ever become thanks to their parents or guardians, so technically it is Serge and Ella’s fault and Ella was no saint to Marie. To me Marie is a tragic figure whom is a stranger to loving family environment thanks to her Father, Uncle and Aunt.

For Paul running off, I think he felt the lost of his wife at first was too much to bear and couldn’t take care and possibly face Marie and Dmitri, the children of his beloved first wife.  Some people are like that, and it may should selfish but truly it really isn’t; when my grandpa was dying I couldn’t bear to be in the same room as him, for I felt even sadder to be near him because he was suffering greatly.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on January 22, 2012, 12:07:55 PM
'I guess I'm a little confused by how many historians place so much weight on MP's memoirs.'

Marie Pavlovna offers a perspective on Ella which is different from the standard, 'She was beautiful. She was a wonderful person.' Sometimes it seems that some followers of this site find it impossible to believe that what MP says about her might even be true! In my opinion, what MP says about her aunt should not simply be dismissed, just as what Marie Georgievna says about Anastasia should not be dismissed either.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 01:15:01 PM
I think I put more credence in the Christopher Warrick Bio on Ella. It mentioned that Marie was actually happy to move out of her aunt's care and to have her own place. The letters to Wilhelm was quoted and revealed a different Marie than her bio claimed. She called Ella "a rat" and "her words are nice but she was not".  That sort of supported by Marie's own Aunt Greek Minny, who said Marie was "spolit" and Ella had a difficult time with her. However Ellaseemed to have a much easier time with Dimitri, so I think the problem is probably to do with Marie than Ella. 

I don't see Marie as a tragic figure but one of wilful rebellion. The person who was most responsible for her fate was her father, grand Duke Paul, whose abandonment of his children in favor of his mistress is beyond words. Paul was warned by Serge and Nicholas II that there will be consequences if he took the steps he did, but he did not care enough for his children to do so. Compared to Ella's father Ludwig IV of Hesse, he was irresponsible and weak. Ella did not asked to take over but forced to when she & her husband had to step up to take care of the two children. Even in Marie's memoirs, Ella did admit her injustice to Marie, but one should be understanding to a woman who was childless and lived with a controlling husband. Ella may not be perfect, but Marie wasn't a saint either. In her own selfish mind, she chose to blame Ella rather than Olga Paley, who actually took her father away from her.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: po3a on January 22, 2012, 03:02:10 PM
Eric- Marie was only a young teenager girl then and possibly wanted to please Ella, who was going through her widowhood (almost selfish towards Marie and Dmitri in my opinion); do you really think all girls are ready for making real good decisions at that age? HECK NO! Sometimes when I read your comments, they can be so nasty – quit it!

Marie became a spoiled and self-centered person, not going to lie! she was like any Princess or rich girl would ever become thanks to their parents or guardians, so technically it is Serge and Ella’s fault and Ella was no saint to Marie. To me Marie is a tragic figure whom is a stranger to loving family environment thanks to her Father, Uncle and Aunt.

For Paul running off, I think he felt the lost of his wife at first was too much to bear and couldn’t take care and possibly face Marie and Dmitri, the children of his beloved first wife.  Some people are like that, and it may should selfish but truly it really isn’t; when my grandpa was dying I couldn’t bear to be in the same room as him, for I felt even sadder to be near him because he was suffering greatly.

Mandie,
I couldn't have said it better!  I have read so much about Marie here on this site.  I feel that the descriptions of her have been unfair.  She had an impossible childhood---I find it amazing that she made what she did out of her life.  Having alot of money and things cannot heal the kind of loss that she began her life with.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Captain Koala on January 22, 2012, 06:27:01 PM
Quote
Sometimes it seems that some followers of this site find it impossible to believe that what MP says about her might even be true!

Hi Mandie, I didn't mean to suggest what MP said was untrue. I just wondered if anyone had any other examples of Ella being unpleasant / cold?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 10:18:45 PM
Unfortunately very few. Most view Ella as a saint. I think she was a very sweet person, but had faults too. Even in Marie's own accounts, after Ella "apologized" to her after Serge death, she was close to her...yet it was Marie who never able to trust Ella. That was evident in both Warrick book & Marie's own words.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Captain Koala on January 22, 2012, 11:17:15 PM
Thanks Eric,

It's frustrating not having enough material to know decisively. I'm sure this question has been asked before so excuse my repetition but did she leave any memoirs? I understand Serge's were destroyed ... or his personal letters at least. What about Ella's? It would be interesting to hear what she thought of MP.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 11:28:49 PM
Actually some of Ella's letters did survive. However they are only in Russian. A new Russian book of letters of Ella's just came up in Russian. I myself got a German book with a few of Ella's letters to Nicholas II, they are only about religious matters. It is really telling for me that not only did Ella did not get through to Marie, but neither did Alicky was particularly fond of her either. The fact that Marie failed to bond with anyone except her brother and son did not bode well about how she handle relationships.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on January 23, 2012, 07:18:26 AM
I think Marie Pavlovna was a difficult person and never trusted the people around her, but given her circumstances this is hardly surprising. Her mother died when she was 16 months old and her father abandoned her. For whatever reason Ella didn't take to her, and Serge was blown up.

I have recently been reading 'The Bolter' by Frances Osborne, which is about Lady Idina Sackville, said to be the inspiration for Nancy Mitford's 'Bolter', and who married and divorced five times. Her father ran off with a can-can dancer, and her first husband, said to be the love of her life, divorced her after both had affairs. It seems that she then got into a pattern of divorcing subsequent husbands before there was any danger of their abandoning her. Maybe Marie was a bit like that.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2012, 11:03:11 AM
I think you may have something there Ann. Marie was abandoned by the first man in her life (her father) and that colored her relationship with most men (her little brother excluded). So she dump them before they could do that to her, and evidently she did the same to her son Lennart as her father did to her. It was a kind of vicious cycle. But fortunately for Marie, she was able to forge a relationship with her father-in-law (who didn't abandon her at her hour of need)  and her son. Lennart. That provided her with some material comfort in her later years. But that would not have happened had not Ella pushed the engagement with Wilhelm forward.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2012, 01:01:51 AM
Yes...That makes sense. Who was the younger woman then. A lady in waiting ?

Possibly Helene? she was a lady-in-waiting to Maria, or governess. Until Maria married in 1908. I THINK, am not sure.
Yes...That makes sense. Who was the younger woman then. A lady in waiting ?

Yes, another woman is Mlle Helene, aka Evdokija Djunkovskaya, governess of Maria Pavlovna.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 24, 2012, 01:12:19 AM


For Paul running off, I think he felt the lost of his wife at first was too much to bear and couldn’t take care and possibly face Marie and Dmitri, the children of his beloved first wife.  Some people are like that, and it may should selfish but truly it really isn’t; when my grandpa was dying I couldn’t bear to be in the same room as him, for I felt even sadder to be near him because he was suffering greatly.


I felt the same about Pavel, but some times his feelings just escape me and become strange. In 1908 Dmitriy came to visit his father (his sister Maria was just married off) and in the night of his arrival  Pavel left the son alone and went to visit someone...Pavel's sister Marie of Coburg had to entertain her nephew, and she did so almost all days of Dmitriy's staying there. Pavel was always busy. And not with the important state affairs surely.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on January 24, 2012, 03:45:23 AM
This is very sad, and doesn't reflect at all well on Pavel. Even though Pavel had more in common with Vladimir in terms of personality and interests, he still had a responsibility towards Dimitri.

There is a definite pattern of widowed and divorced fathers  (and some mothers) losing all interest in the children of their first marriage when the second lot arrives, and even turning against them. My maternal grandfather's mother died from a stillbirth when he was four. His father subsequently remarried, and produced another son, who was idolised by both parents, while my grandfather was packed off to sea at 14 to get rid of him, and his sister was also found a job away from home.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2012, 08:30:22 AM
Yes. Pavel was the baby of the family and not got used to responsibility to others, especially the needs of his own family. Had he not ran off with Olga, both Marie & Dimitri would have had a more stable upbringing. Instead they were packed off to live with a strange uncle and a childless aunt, whose very presence seem to be a reminder her inability to have children. No wonder Marie felt abandoned by the men in her life, it all started off with Pavel. No excuse for him...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 24, 2012, 01:28:21 PM


For Paul running off, I think he felt the lost of his wife at first was too much to bear and couldn’t take care and possibly face Marie and Dmitri, the children of his beloved first wife.  Some people are like that, and it may should selfish but truly it really isn’t; when my grandpa was dying I couldn’t bear to be in the same room as him, for I felt even sadder to be near him because he was suffering greatly.


I felt the same about Pavel, but some times his feelings just escape me and become strange. In 1908 Dmitriy came to visit his father (his sister Maria was just married off) and in the night of his arrival  Pavel left the son alone and went to visit someone...Pavel's sister Marie of Coburg had to entertain her nephew, and she did so almost all days of Dmitriy's staying there. Pavel was always busy. And not with the important state affairs surely.


Yes, I agree. But after he meet Olga Paley, that when I have no sympathy for him. He became distant and very neglectful of his two eldest children.  He had no right involving Marie’s marriage to Wilhelm of Sweden - 1. He wasn’t the legal parent and 2. After all those years finally acting like a father. Please.  I wonder way Marie still loved and adored her father after that almost cruel treatment? I wouldn’t.
Serge was more of a better parent to Marie then Paul ever was, and for Ella, if she wasn’t cold to her, perhaps their relationship would have been pleasant.

  Remember what you do to others will reflect on you later. And that what happened to Marie, a spoiled unhappy little Princess.
 I had almost the same issues like Marie had with her own Father as a young girl; so I can relate.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2012, 01:47:57 PM
It is easy why Marie could forgive her father since she wanted so badly to have a relationship with him. Ella was jealous of Marie & Dimitri, as Serge made a fuss about them. Even though her childlessness may not have been her fault. Being the only childless sibling may not have sat well with Ella. I appaulded Ellawith trying to do a clean beginning with Marie, but by then she was not interested. The recent book "Alix & Nicky" made it plain that Alicky was also a control freak and martinet as far as her mothering skills were concern with her children.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: po3a on January 24, 2012, 02:14:12 PM
Yes. Pavel was the baby of the family and not got used to responsibility to others, especially the needs of his own family. Had he not ran off with Olga, both Marie & Dimitri would have had a more stable upbringing. Instead they were packed off to live with a strange uncle and a childless aunt, whose very presence seem to be a reminder her inability to have children. No wonder Marie felt abandoned by the men in her life, it all started off with Pavel. No excuse for him...



I totally agree!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2012, 09:48:57 PM
I am glad that Ella found closure with her own prejudices as she discovered an unexpected friendship with the young Prince Vladimir Paley. Marie, despite her bad experiences with men, was able to reconnect with her son Prince Lennart, who took care of her in her sunset years.   
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Sara Araújo on January 25, 2012, 03:38:50 AM
I personally don't think Paul had such a bad character as some posts have described it. One must not forget that, by the time he left his children from his first marriage, he already had another son: Vladimir. Of course any parent who abandons its children must be punished and looked down upon, but one must also understand his reasons. He met Olga in 1895, at a time in his life when he thought he would never be happy again. The only thing he had left were his two children and he loved them dearly. Of course, after Alexandra's death, he was not well and it was for the sake of the children that he gave them to his brother, and not just any brother, but the one who he loved and trusted the most. When he was well again, he took them back and all accounts that I've read so far about these years, until Olga appeared and even for some time after, show that he was a caring father. You can see that in Maria Pavlovna's description of one of their Christmases.

Going back to Olga Paley, I think the description his daughter Irina gave is the one that best describes the situation: "He spoke to us at length about all that he owed to our mother, all that she had brought to him which he had never known in his life before, and about all that she had been to him." She made him feel alive again, after a long period of mourning where he thought it was impossible to feel like that again. Paul had always been very shy and he knew very few people besides his own family and courtiers, so Olga was, in all senses, a breath of fresh air. That was why he loved her and could no longer imagine his life without her. I think he was proud of her and that was why he didn't hide her. It's was not the wisest decision, I agree, but I don't think there were evil intentions behind it.

Now, in 1897, Vladimir is born. Olga is still married to Erich Gerhard von Pistohlkors, which means Paul's son, born from a relationship which had changed his life, from a woman he loved dearly, was registered as Vladimir von Pistohlkors and his official father was his mistress's husband. Of course, to the imperial family, this was perfect. The child would be raised as Erich's son, Paul would carry on with his life and there would be no scandal. Imagine the kind of decision Paul had to make: he had to choose between his two eldest children and Vladimir. Now, lets compare their situation: Maria and Dmitri had titles, they were the grandchildren of the King of Greece as well as Tsar Alexander II and a whole lot of relatives that was more than anxious to take them away from their controversial father. Vladimir had a stepfather who was more than willing to treat him as an outsider and a mother who, being married to him, would not be able to do anything about it. Olga's marriage was already, as it seems obvious, falling apart, and I don't think Vladimir's childhood would have been much idyllic if Paul decided choose his half-siblings over him.

I have already said this in another thread. Maria and Dmitri belonged to the state. Vladimir was his own. There was nobody who could take care of him but himself. Of course Paul knew what the consequences would be if he decided to marry Olga, but he still hoped that the Tsar would understand his situation. After he granted Olga's divorce and they ran away from Russia, they were not married right away. When he left, Paul was still hoping that the Tsar would at least let him take Maria with him. He knew that he would have to leave Dmitri behind, because he had his military duties, but he only lost hope of bringing Maria in 1902, five years after he had left. Paul and Olga were running around Europe, sleeping in hotel rooms with their infant son, always hoping that the Tsar would change his mind, but he didn't. What else could they do? They finally married anyway, so that at least Vladimir would have a proper life.

As for the way Paul supposedly treated Dmitri after this, I cannot say much, because I haven't read enough about it, but Maria always spent two weeks with Paul and his family on the Summer and she had a good, if not great, relationship with Olga Paley. Perhaps he decided to distance himself from Dmitri so that he wouldn't suffer anymore. He had already suffer much with his first wife's death, perhaps he couldn't bear loosing his son too, so he distanced himself from him. But I still have a hard time believing that he did this out of pure selfishness...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on January 25, 2012, 03:58:24 AM
Sara

I take your point, but it's more complicated than that. Vladimir was born in 1897, but it was not until 1902 that Paul left the country and married Olga. According to John van der Kiste, Paul was not taking much interest in Marie and Dimitri even before 1902.

I accept that being a widowed father is not easy, but Paul did have responsibilities towards them, and, if he was the kind of man who isn't good with infants, by 1902 they were 11 and 12.

Is there any evidence that Olga and Eric von Pistolkors would have divorced even if Paul had not wanted to marry her? In that case, he could have lived with her discreetly as his mistress, taken responsibility for Vladimir and for his legitimate children.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on January 25, 2012, 05:46:40 AM


As for the way Paul supposedly treated Dmitri after this, I cannot say much, because I haven't read enough about it, but Maria always spent two weeks with Paul and his family on the Summer and she had a good, if not great, relationship with Olga Paley. Perhaps he decided to distance himself from Dmitri so that he wouldn't suffer anymore. He had already suffer much with his first wife's death, perhaps he couldn't bear loosing his son too, so he distanced himself from him. But I still have a hard time believing that he did this out of pure selfishness...

Of course we also can say that he distanced from Dmitriy as the son reminded him that his mother died in childbirth (though that was not Dmitriy's fault for sure as the reason of the death were weak kidneys of poor Alexandra)...All this and that is very understandable but still there is an evidence that Pavel was a distant father from the beginning. Even reading his daughter's memoirs (I mean Maria P.) one can see between the lines that his was almost always away - military duties and so on. It's a usual way of life of many  Royal parents but Pavel seemed wanted to forget all the saddness and after all he reached the goal - found Olga and new family and 'gave' eldest children to his brother and his wife. GD Sergei was extremely fond of any children - this is a solid fact marked by many of his relatives and contemporaries - so the Pavel's children were in good and kind arms...but none could take the place of the father.

Also there was an unpleasant controversy between Pavel and GDss Elizaveta when Maria got engaged. Pavel declared that he would attend Maria's wedding if his wife is permitted to came with him. The Imperial Family was adamant - no Olga at Maria's wedding! And Pavel at once wrote to Maria that he would not attend the festivities becouse of Olga's absence. No one in the Imperial Family could understand: how does Pavel's morganatic wife touch the wedding of his eldest daughter from the previous spouse?...And they were right actually. Pavel looked like a total egoist: 'I don't want to attend as you all don't love my wife'...That's why I feel sorry for all Pavel's troubles but sometimes don't understand his logic or feelings.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2012, 01:24:06 PM
I agree that Pavel is as complex in many ways as his brother Sergei. To place his morganetic spouse above the interest of his daughter's wedding was pure selfishness and immaturity. It was his way or none at all. Before the break up, Ella was very close to Pavel and Alexandra of Greece. As one who chose duty, she couldn't reconcile his desertion of his children as other members (like Nicholas II & The Dowager Empress).
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 19, 2012, 10:51:12 AM
Paul's children still loved their father in spite of what we may view as his neglect of them. This is often true of children in general. During the 19th and for most of the 20th century, the rearing of children was considered "women's work", and it could be that Paul did not see a role for himself with his children in the way we would now.                               
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2012, 03:33:48 PM
Yes, but even so, Pavel wasn't very concerned about the ramification of his actions on his children. He was only pissed when decisions about them were decided without his approval. Since he was the baby of the family, it is understandable that he was spoilt.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 22, 2012, 05:25:13 PM
Yes, but even so, Pavel wasn't very concerned about the ramification of his actions on his children. He was only pissed when decisions about them were decided without his approval. Since he was the baby of the family, it is understandable that he was spoilt.

This goes too far into the realm of opinion for my tastes. You really have no way of knowing what Paul Alexandrovich was concerned about. You are interpreting what we know as facts and drawing conclusions about his behavior that may or may not be true.

Spoilt? He wasn't 5 years old, so I find that characterization inappropriate.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on February 23, 2012, 04:29:10 AM
'Spoilt? He wasn't 5 years old, so I find that characterization inappropriate.'

Not necessarily, as someone who has been spoilt as a small child may continue expecting to get his own way into adulthood.

Not sure that this was necessarily true of Pavel, but he did behave very badly towards his elder children. As Lisa says, in his day men were not expected to be hands-on fathers of small children, so Pavel may not have thought he had much of a role with them in the immediate aftermath of their mother's death. However, they did not remain infants for ever, and plenty of men spent time with their children - particularly their sons -  once they were a bit older and they could do interesting things together. My father tells me that his father, born in 1878 and a latecomer to fatherhood (he didn't marry until he was 48) set about teaching him and his sister to read, and would take them to museums when they were six or seven (he seems to have been a rather serious-minded man). Equally, my mother's eldest brother remembered his father, born in 1885, taking him to Liverpool docks on Sundays to see the tall ships that came into port, and telling him that5 going to sea was the finest life for a man.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2012, 04:15:29 PM
Exactly Kalafrana !

I know a lot of babies in the families that grew up a bit self centered adults and think only of themselves. Serge had more than once warned him about his affair with Olga and the consequences of marrying without the Tsar's permission. Pavel chose to ignore his brother's warning, so he shouldn't be shocked of the consequences. Ella who was a close friend of both Pavel and Alexandra was disgusted by his lack of loyalty to his family, children and most of all his disregard of the wishes of the Tsar. Even when he was granted excess to his children, Pavel did not appear to be a hands on father...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 24, 2012, 11:09:04 AM
I would characterize Paul as a person who was privileged and who had a strong sense of entitlement. To be more precise about why I felt "spoilt" was not an appropriate characterization, a spoiled child IMHO is one who is not made to face the consequences of his actions for his misbehavior and then goes through life unable to do so. I just don't see this characteristic applying to the grand duke.

He does appear to be self centered at times, but he paid dearly for all of his mistakes. Paul remained rather narrowly focused on the kind of cozy domesticity he seemed to crave his whole life, which I think better explains his neglect of his older children than labelling him "spoilt". Just my opinion, though!

He faced his death bravely, he gently broke the news of Nicholas' abdication to Alexandra, and still tried to serve his beloved country even when he was ill and the monarchy in tatters. There was much good in this man.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 24, 2012, 04:09:05 PM
Well he did pay for his mistakes. Unlike Grand Duke Ludwig IV (father of Ella & Alicky) who devoted his life to his family and formed a bond with his children, Pavel was just thinking about his life & Olga. Very much like Edward VIII & Wallis Simpson or Karol II & Magda Lapersu. Which was why one could see why Nicholas II and his mother was so shocked by his behavior as well as Alicky who grew up without a mother too.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 09, 2012, 02:52:29 AM

"Of course we also can say that he distanced from Dmitriy as the son reminded him that his mother died in childbirth (though that was not Dmitriy's fault for sure as the reason of the death were weak kidneys of poor Alexandra)...All this and that is very understandable but still there is an evidence that Pavel was a distant father from the beginning. Even reading his daughter's memoirs (I mean Maria P.) one can see between the lines that his was almost always away - military duties and so on. It's a usual way of life of many  Royal parents but Pavel seemed wanted to forget all the saddness and after all he reached the goal - found Olga and new family and 'gave' eldest children to his brother and his wife. GD Sergei was extremely fond of any children - this is a solid fact marked by many of his relatives and contemporaries - so the Pavel's children were in good and kind arms...but none could take the place of the father." Unquote.


It's probable that Alexandra died of eclampia. Fits, coma, etc.

Marie Pavlovna admitted that her uncle Serge loved them deeply, was a busy man who gave them a great deal of his time, and was interested in every aspects of their lives. Unfortunately, Marie did not want her uncle's love & devotion. She greatly resented Serge, had no intention of transferring her affections to him, and blamed him the sole culprit standing between herself & her father. Paul's interest in the motherless children of his first marriage had been limited. He was undemonstrative & distant. Marie Pavlovna, on the other hand, was besotted with her father & brother. A life long obsession to the exclusion of all others would not be an exaggeration.

The truth is Paul was of an extremely delicate disposition, was prone to nervous breakdowns, and health retreats. Serge had played mother hen (as ever) to Paul since their childhood and had always been there to clean up his messes. Beyond his own direct needs, desires, & ego Paul was little motivated. As with Edward V111, Paul cultivated an appreciation for the privileges of royalty, but not the responsibilities. Members of the Romnaov family who put duty first were aghast at Paul's broken promises, neglect, & selfishness.

Insight into Paul's character. When the "wayward" Grand Duke eloped with Princess Paley he requested that his loyal man servant Alexei Volkov accompany him throughout Europe. While in Italy, Paul abruptly told Volkov that he was to be put on leave of absense, and as a result ordered him to return to Russia without delay. When asked when he would return Paul answered "evasively". Back in Petersburg Volkov was informed that the Grand Duke's house was to be "liquidated" and that he was no longer part of it. Stranded, Volkov was eventually forced to seek lodging at his own expense. As his situation grew desparate Volkov waited but no word came from his master. It was the Grand Duke Serge who eventually found servant Volkov, vowed he would find him a place at court at the first opportunity, and was as good as his word. In 1905 when Paul returned to Russia to attend Serge's funeral he met up with Volkov and made a tentative request that he return to his service. Volkov politely refused, thinking it wiser to remain in the Tsar's houshold. Volkov did mention that when Paul was in his element he was an "easy" person to work for.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2012, 01:18:25 PM
I think there is some issues between Paul and Dimitry that never got resolved.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: rachel5a on November 10, 2012, 06:49:08 AM
I think for Paul his son nr 1 was always Vladimir
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
He had the advantage of growing up with him.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 11, 2012, 04:15:03 AM
He had the advantage of growing up with him.

Until Dimitri was age 11 (and Marie age 12) their father had sole custody of them. Subsequently, after being abandoned by the Grand Duke Paul, Dmitri spent two years (approx.) as a ward of the Grand Duke Serge, and then the remainder of his youth under the custody of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth, or as a member of the household of Nicholas 11.

Natalie & Irene Paley also had the benefit of growing up with the Grand Duke Paul but how much an advantage that turned out to be is debatable.

Dimitri's diaries make clear that he cared more for General Laimimg than his father, the Grand Duke Paul. Prior to World War 1, Dimitri worshipped Nicholas 11. However, that didn't prevent him from writing to his sister Marie in 2009 expressing his sincere wish that his new nephew would never turn out to be anything like Alexis in behavior or even looks,--and in a 1910 letter to Marie accused the Empress Alexandra of being a "fool" and of "idiotic behavior" as the result of incautious treatment of her son. Dimitri even trashed his step-mother Princess Paley to his sister. Interestingly, in his diaries Dimitri was somewhat kinder to Alexandra & Olga Paley. It is suspected that Dimitri may have been playing up to his sister's prejudices since he knew Marie had a strong antipathy to the adult women in her family. Marie went so far as to vilify her aunt Ella a "rat"--a real phony, etc. No doubt Dimitri had genuine issues with Alexandra & Alexis but it is also thought that he was jealous because mother & son would always be #1 with his idol Nicholas. Grand Duke Serge excepted, neither Dimitri or Marie came in first place with those who's love they sought most.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on November 11, 2012, 11:24:27 AM
'However, that didn't prevent him from writing to his sister Marie in 2009 expressing his sincere wish that his new nephew would never turn out to be anything like Alexis in behavior or even looks.'

To be fair, Alexei could be quite a brat, to put it mildly, and Alexandra spoilt him.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 11, 2012, 01:40:40 PM
Very hard not to...Alexis was the only son...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 11, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Very hard not to...Alexis was the only son...

And could die at any moment.

Still.

Royals & staff indicate that young Alexis was spoilt & often unmanageable. A lady-in-waiting wrote that the Empress did not like to thwart Alexis. Apparently, the anxious and guilt-ridden mother didn't have the heart to deny her sick child.

KR, 1012:

"Recently, on the 14th, my wife had lunch with their Majesties, I was embarassed by the behavior of the Heir, who is almost two years older than Vera, he wouldn't sit up, ate badly, licked his plate & teased the others. The Emperor often turned away, perhaps to avoid having to say anything, while the Empress rebuked her elder daughter Olga, who was next to her brother, for not restraining him. But Olga cannot deal with him."

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 11, 2012, 11:25:15 PM
Well...Alexis was a very good looking boy, and with a winning deposition. Indeed Alexandra was full of guilt that her genes made her son ill. The situation at her sister Irene's household made her fearful of what could happen to her son.

Alexandra was warm to Dimitri too, but I don't think she envision him marry her daughter Olga as was widely believed.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on November 12, 2012, 02:22:50 AM
Alexei had a winning disposition when he was the centre of attention. When he wasn't, he was a brat. Typical of spoilt children.

And typical of mothers of spoilt younger children for telling of her first-born for not controlling the brat! (It happened to me, too!)

How old was Alexei at the time of KR's note? Perdita writes '1012' - do you mean 1912?

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2012, 11:39:54 AM
1912 is a good guess. Yes Olga was the big sister to take care of Alexis.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on November 13, 2012, 04:28:23 AM
It is one of the burdens of being a first-born to be expected to look after younger siblings and to be the one in trouble when they play up.

Episodes like this do not make me any more fond of Alexandra (herself a youngest from the age of six).

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 09:54:06 AM
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Duchess Hydrangea on November 13, 2012, 12:02:45 PM
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.

How rebellious were the daughters? I know there were things they refused to do. You can PM me so we stay on topic.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 12:17:55 PM
I already did.  :)

I was a bit shocked by it, they were held in check by Alexandra unlike Marie and especially Dimitri (who lived a wild life).
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 13, 2012, 01:29:59 PM
I think you should read "Alix & Nicky" by Virginia Rounding. It tears off the chocolate box image of Nicholas & Alexandra as the ideal couple. The daughters, especially Olga & Marie were quite rebellious, had they lived on. The family harmony perceived by history would have been destroyed. I think Marie & Dimitri were the children of their times. They think of themselves more and the country and duty less.

Alexandra was the youngest and she was spoiled also by her family.

Virginia Rounding's book is a single revisionist interpretation--not the last word.

It's impossible to know how GD. Olga & GD. Marie would have evolved as characters. It's unlikey they would have done a bunk (i.e., Marie Pavlovna). The history simply wasn't there.

Family retainers & OTMA's letters attest to the deep love & respect Nicholas & Alexandra's daughters felt for their parents. Olga & Marie were especially attached (abjectly) to their father.

Olga & Tatiana were age 21 and 23 respectively when they died & unlike Marie Pavlovna there is no evidence that either daughter indicated a sufficiently strong desire to be independent of their parents, to marry young, or to exit Russia. The reverse is true. Despite the occasional sulk & frustration, not unusal in the happiest of families, the four daughters of the Tsar remained oddly content to remain cloistered within the bosom of their adored family.

Marie Pavlovna, hardly a benign witness (& no fan of Alexandra's) admitted that theTsar's family life was near idyllic.

"Life at Tsarskoie was very pleasant... (the Emperor & Empress) were happy in the close intimacy of their isolation. The relations between the sovereigns & their children, in spite of all the luxury, were candid and simple.. There we were happiest, for there we sensed ourselves in a real family atmosphere tender, simple, & calm. The Emperor and his wife held for each other and for their children a deep and unswerving devotion--and their conjugal happiness was beautiful to see..."

Marie Pavlovna never revised her opinion.

So why doubt the FIRST HAND testimony of the Tsar's entire extended family, friends, & household retainers?

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 13, 2012, 02:42:02 PM
Oe more contrast between Marie Pavlovna & Nicholas and Alexandra's children.

The Tsar's daughters not only adored their parental guardians, they were deeply devout. There are few sacrifices they would not make on behalf of parents, family & religion.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 03:09:54 PM
Well...Did you read Olga's diaries ? They are full of soldiers, guards etc. One train of thought is that she refused to marry Carol of Romania because she was in love with a palace guard, who was speedily re-posted and married. No...Virginia Rounding was not the first one to see cracks in the "idyllic" version.  I trust Missy's observations that the girls were afraid of their mother. and could only be natural if she was not around. Hardly an ideal situation. In the later days of the captivity, Marie fell in love with a guard and was boycotted by the rest of the family.

The truth is painful but I prefer that to the rose tainted glasses. I don't think you could trust the words of Marie and discount that of Sandro. They all have to be taken as a whole.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 14, 2012, 01:40:35 AM
Well...Did you read Olga's diaries ? They are full of soldiers, guards etc. One train of thought is that she refused to marry Carol of Romania because she was in love with a palace guard, who was speedily re-posted and married. No...Virginia Rounding was not the first one to see cracks in the "idyllic" version.  I trust Missy's observations that the girls were afraid of their mother. and could only be natural if she was not around. Hardly an ideal situation. In the later days of the captivity, Marie fell in love with a guard and was boycotted by the rest of the family.

The truth is painful but I prefer that to the rose tainted glasses. I don't think you could trust the words of Marie and discount that of Sandro. They all have to be taken as a whole.

MOST teenage girl's diaries (& thoughts) are full of man crushes. So what? Is there evidence that Olga & Tatiana requested permission to marry a suitable partner ("Man Of Their Dreams") and that Nicholas & Alexandra refused?

Marie of Rumania & Victoria Melita could not abide the Empress Alexandra. Neither were impartial witnesses. "Missy" scantly knew OTMA & her cursory observations were hardly conclusive. No doubt Alexandra had instructed her daughters to be on their best behavior with the Rumanian Queen and when absent the young Grand Duchesses relaxed in her presense, along with their father who, unlike Alix, enjoyed a comfortable relationship with his cousin.

The idea that OTMA could "only be natural" when their mother wasn't around is not substaniated. The vast majority of the Romanov family, friends, & staff who knew Nichoals & Alexandra intimately long term & FIRST HAND describe their relations with their daughters as informal & delightful. Even "Missy" did not deny that Alexandra was a good mother and wife who's family life was happy--i.e., "Sufficent unto themselves".

Summing up, "Missy's" opinion of Alexandra was grudging to say the least and she was only too willing to find fault & cast all blame for Russia's problems on Alexandra.

Marie of Rumania on OTMA: "I was never with them long enough to know them intimately."

Marie Pavlovna vs. "Sandro"?

Marie & Dimitri lived intimately with Serge & Ella for over a decade. Sandro, a confirmed Serge vilifier & abject Ella partisan, did not.

Did Dimitri contradict his sister's public narrative?

Why NOT dismiss Sandro's lone opinion of Serge within the Romanov family circle? Summarily you dismiss the views of dozens of credible people who knew Serge well and who claimed to "love" "like" or "respect" him?

To reinterate:

"Missy" Marie of Rumania
Grand Duchess Elizabeth--wife.
Tsar Alexander 111
KR--And all his family.
Prince Gabriel
Grand Duke Paul
Marie Alexandrovna
Olga Alexandrovna
Victoria of Battenberg
Ernest of Hesse
Olga of Greece
Alexandra of Greece
Marie of Greece
Grand Duke Kyrill & Victoria Melita
Poet A.F. Tuitchev
Meriel Buchanan
Countess Kleinmichel & daughters
Zinaida Yusupov
Countess Tolstoy & family.
Dostoevsky..etc.

Were they ALL blindsided dupes?

Senior Statesman Count Sergei Witte under two Tsars, quote

"The Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich, in essence, was a very noble and honest man."

To repeat. You do not condemn KR & Sandro for their marital transgressions confirmed, but smear with conjecture the private reputation of the Grand Duke Serge for marital offences not confirmed.  (?)





Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2012, 08:50:02 AM
There is evidence that guards were replaced when they get too close to the girls. Since they were isolated and kept from society, the only emotional outlets are the guards and they often led into unequal unions. Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovna was the prime example. Ernst of Hesse thinks Nicholas II was weak by saying that he was a nice man but don't know how to handle his sister. So the ideal image of the Imperial Family came crashing down. By the time of the revolution nobody in the Imperial family respects them.

The list.

Miechen
Sandro & Xenia
Olga of Greece
Missy
Kyrill & Victoria
Marie of Greece
Count Witte
Grand Duke Paul & his wife
Grand Duke Nicholas
Princess Yussopov.

Almost your identical list on those who "respected" Serge.
Although KR indicated that he lost his respect for Serge after the coronation disaster in Moscow.
As did Sandro and his brothers who walked out of the French Ball.
Don't think Dowager Empress Marie was too fond of Serge either.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 14, 2012, 04:53:27 PM
There is evidence that guards were replaced when they get too close to the girls. Since they were isolated and kept from society, the only emotional outlets are the guards and they often led into unequal unions. Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovna was the prime example. Ernst of Hesse thinks Nicholas II was weak by saying that he was a nice man but don't know how to handle his sister. So the ideal image of the Imperial Family came crashing down. By the time of the revolution nobody in the Imperial family respects them.

The list.

Miechen
Sandro & Xenia
Olga of Greece
Missy
Kyrill & Victoria
Marie of Greece
Count Witte
Grand Duke Paul & his wife
Grand Duke Nicholas
Princess Yussopov.

Almost your identical list on those who "respected" Serge.
Although KR indicated that he lost his respect for Serge after the coronation disaster in Moscow.
As did Sandro and his brothers who walked out of the French Ball.
Don't think Dowager Empress Marie was too fond of Serge either.


KR did not say that he lost respect for Serge after the coronation disaster. What he wrote was; "Of course, Sergei is not personally responsible... however, it is his fault he is being showered with accusations"--i.e., Serge did not go to scene of incident & proceeded with the French ball. (Ulimately, it was the Emperor's decision to attend.) As a result KR remarked "(Serge) has not acted in the way I consider he should." This greived KR because "I love him dearly."

KR remained a confidant & a fast friend of the Grand Duke Serge to the last.

KR, quote 1905 assassination: "As if struck by lightening, for the first minutes I could not take anything in. I went to say goodby to Mama. She is never told any bad news. It was only as I was leaving her that I realized what I had lost, and burst into tears. I must prepare my wife--she loved Sergei so much."

Marie Pavlovna on her uncle the Grand Duke Serge: "Those few who knew him well were deeply devoted to him."

Where does the Dowager Empress Marie specifically state that she did not like the Grand Duke Sergei?

Hardly a new revelation that Nicholas was "weak" when it came to curbing the excesses of Alexandra.

The "List" names may have lost respect for Nicholas as Tsar, but none on that list denied the conjugal love Nicholas & Alexandra felt for one another, or the respect & devotion the children had for their parents.

That the Grand Duchess Marie was conjectured "boycotted" in 1918 by her family is absurd. Where is the evidence?

Nicholas & his family's royal letters, diaries, & the first hand testimony of their Romanov relations, friends, and staff are more to be credited than contemporay revisionist authors peddling snide "modern psychological testing" (suppositions), glaring factual errors, secondary sourcing--not first hand, rudimentary notes making it difficult to validate those stories, no apparent new archival research,--ditto indeterminate chronology, etc.

"Isolated & kept from society....Their Aunt Olga Alexandrovich was a prime example."

Whether kept from society OR NO--the Romnaov family was replete with "unequal unions". Misalliances were not a proclivity restricted to the mother dominated & isolated Olga Alexandrovna.

Examples: Alexandra critics "Missy"of Rumania & George V's in no way isolated or shielded their sons from society, i.e.,-- King Carol of Rumania, Prince Nicholas of Rumania, & Edward V111 of England,--AND ALL cultivated a major taste for "unequal unions".

As did (In one form or another):
Alexander 11
Grand Duke Constantine Nicholavich
Grand Duke Alexis Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Constantinovich
Grand Duke Nicholas Michaelovich
Grand Duke Michael Michaelovich
"Sandro" Michaelovich (In exile)
Grand Duchess Anastasia Michaelovich (Informally)
Grand Duke Paul Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Boris Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Andrea Vladimirovich
Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich
Marie Pavlovna
Elizabeth of Rumania (informally)
Princess Marie of Greece
...........etc.

Nor did Nicholas 11 grant permission for Kyril to marry his divorced first cousin Victoria Melita. Not an "unequal" match--but not permitted by the laws of the Russian Orthodox Church.

OTMA died devout & respected young women in the eyes of their Emperor & the Russian Orthodox Church. Don't conjecture to defile their memory.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 14, 2012, 05:29:40 PM
Correction: Grand Duchess Anasatasie Mikhailovna. (The aberrant sister of "Sandro".)
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2012, 08:23:48 PM
If you want to live in a rose tainted bowl and ignored the truth of how Alicky was a control freak mother. Olga who wanted to break away and had serious problems with her mother and Marie whose last affair with the guards was "ignored" by the family shortly before they were executed. There is enough material to rebutt the ideal vision that you indicate. The truth is not always beautiful, but it is real. I personally belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the girls were sainted because of the way they died.

Nicholas was of course weak (he allowed the marriages of Kyrill, Paul & Misha to go through and gave Ducky the title of grand duchess). King Edward VIII once said he liked his Russian nephew (Nicholas II) but he was as weak as water. Miechen said Alexandra should be shut up in a nunnery and ready to make that happen. Respect ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 14, 2012, 08:52:19 PM
^ Eric, Marie Nikolaievna had no affair, more of a flirt with the Guards, the girl was Innocent - I bid $1000 dollars that Marie Nikolaievna doesn’t even know what sex is, the Tsarina made sure of that her daughters were naïve and innocent!

And stop going around in circles over nonsense and off topic!

Back to topic, or I'll warn AP, because a lot of us here had enough!
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: rachel5a on November 15, 2012, 05:26:42 AM
GD Ella was very religious. Did her religiousness have any influence on GD Maria and GD Dmitri??? Were they religious at all?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2012, 08:19:49 AM
I don't think Marie and Dimitri were religious and under her influence at all. Marie was rebellious and Dimitri was wild. Ironically the person who was interested in Ella's brand of religious spirituality was Felix Yussopv, the boon friend of Dmitri and son of Zinida Yussopv, friend of Ella.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Duchess Hydrangea on November 15, 2012, 08:29:50 AM
GD Ella was very religious. Did her religiousness have any influence on GD Maria and GD Dmitri??? Were they religious at all?

The only thing I can recall off the top of my head is that Dmitri for years refused to take Communion because of guilt over the Rasputin murder. But this might have been a simple conscious that murder is wrong rather than something to do with Ella's upbringing. Honestly I've never come across much religious information about either of them, especially when compared to OTMA, KR's children and their (MP and DP's) half brother Vladimir Paley. Then again when compared to how much I've read about the others mentioned I haven't read much about Marie P at all.

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on November 15, 2012, 08:47:42 AM
Perdita

At risk of going off topic once again, Dostoevsky is on your list of people who admired Serge. How had he come to know him?

Ann

Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2012, 09:12:30 AM
No. Marie P thought about nobody but herself. She divorced her husband and left her child for another man. Not very moral or religious to say the least. Dimitri was promoscious and had a lot of love affairs and refuse to settle down with a wife and children until years later. One thing though, his act of taking off Rasputin had the approval of his reputedly saint aunt, Ella.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 15, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
Dostoevsky met Serge at a dinner at the Winter Palace. The author had been invited by Serge's Professor. I don't know whether the invitation was extended on Serge's behalf, as he was a fan, or at the other man's discretion. I'm not sure of the date but since Dostoevsky died in 1881, it would've had to be while Serge was somewhere between a teen and a young man.

Anyone wanting to read about Serge & Dostoevsky can go to the following article (it's a little hard to follow so I'm thinking it's a translation):

http://yqyq.net/40025-Velikiiy_Knyaz_Sergeiy_Aleksandrovich_i_F_M_Dostoevskiiy_duhovnoe_rodstvo.html

I don't think Marie P was that religious as it plays almost no role in her 2 autobiographies. I think it would warrant more mention had she more than an average inclination. That's not to say that she was non-religious, however.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2012, 02:37:15 PM
Yes. Marie wasn't religious, but not anti-religion as well.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on November 15, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
Grand Duchess Ella

Thank you. I will follow your link.


Eric

You have asked a question, then proceeded to answer it yourself!

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: perdita on November 16, 2012, 01:24:33 AM
If you want to live in a rose tainted bowl and ignored the truth of how Alicky was a control freak mother. Olga who wanted to break away and had serious problems with her mother and Marie whose last affair with the guards was "ignored" by the family shortly before they were executed. There is enough material to rebutt the ideal vision that you indicate. The truth is not always beautiful, but it is real. I personally belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church and the girls were sainted because of the way they died.

Nicholas was of course weak (he allowed the marriages of Kyrill, Paul & Misha to go through and gave Ducky the title of grand duchess). King Edward VIII once said he liked his Russian nephew (Nicholas II) but he was as weak as water. Miechen said Alexandra should be shut up in a nunnery and ready to make that happen. Respect ?

And there is enough FIRST HAND material --letters, diaries, family members, eye witness staff, etc.,  to rebutt your nightmare version of Nicholas & Alexandra's family life.

Courtiers described OTMA as "wild as hawks". Their social contacts may have been limited, but the Grand Duchesses were hardly abused or supressed. In fact, the eye witness concensus had it that the girls were charming, happy, & "sufficient unto themselves".

Most Romanovs had a wide circle of friends in Russian society. Give evidence that those contacts led to their fullfilled potential, contentment, or a moral compass.

How many members of the Russian royal family liked or respected Miechen? With the exception of boon companion Marie Alexandrovna--WHO? Ever the indulgent mother, Miechen's three sons were hardly paragons of virtue flaunting their myriad of outstanding public accomplishments.

Hint: Shutting up Alexandra in a nunnery would not have saved Russia from being Russia.

"Weak as water" might be a fair description of Edward V11's private character & public example. Edward V11 was also an absentee father.  
Better OTMA--than Eddy of Clarence.
Do you imagine that OTMA would have exchanged their lives for the VERY socially stunted existence of the "Motherdear" dominated Princess Louise, Victoria, & Maud?
Would OTMA have traded their parents for the Duke of Windsor's George V & Queen Mary?
Would OTMA have exchanged their parents for King Ferdinand & Queen Marie of Rumania? --Or for the relationsip "Missy" had with her children Carol, Nicholas, or Elzabetha? Or for the relationship Marie & Dmitri had with the Grand Duke Paul?

The answer: A resounding NO.

In fact, the Duke of Windsor wrote that he envied the Tsar's children's relationship with their father.

Other than second hand gossip & revisionist supposition, submit your credible first hand accounts that the Grand Duchess Marie had affairs with prison guards. Did her parents & sisters say that? Family retainers?

Incidentally, had Olga Nichoelavna wanted to "break away" then why, by age 23, hadn't she done it? The eldest daughter of the Tsar must have been "breaking away" a long time to get no further than her parent's dinner table. Where is the documentation that Olga showed any serious initiative to persue a separate existence apart from her family. Actions, or rather non actions, SPEAK volumes.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2012, 10:54:58 AM
I respect your opinion on the Romanovs and OMTA. Please respect mine too.

Not sure if they wouldn't trade in their parents for a more structure one in Windsor. Princess Mary turned out very fine and without problems. Don't think she would think of going to Uncle Nicky & Aunt Alicky's with her fanatical forms of religion (Queen Mary had very harsh words on Alicky's fanatic ideas of religion), kissed good night by Rasputin, snoting coke, and murky relationship with Anna Vubyoia. Missy who was a successful ruler and raised fine daughters was right to call the atmosphere in Imperial Household as "unreal". In the later years when the daughters begining to grow up, Alicky did not try to find them suitable husbands, but kept them back as children (Olga & Tatiana were officially out). Olga received the brunt of Alicky's criticism since she felt the situation of Russia not going well and did voice her opinion. Not sure if the family harmony would have continued had they were allowed to live. Both Tatiana & Anastasia were more easy going, while Marie was definitely going her own way (as far as men is concerned).

I think Olga Alexandrovna did wrote that she respected Miechen, although may not have "liked" her. Miechen was one that command respect than love any way. Both she was Minnie viewed Alicky with skepticism the way she allowed Rasputin to run the country. 

Yet the Duke of Windsor did not envy Alicky as a mother to him, that said volumes on how she was viewed in England. I think Alicky was not a good mother, she spoiled Alexis and was hard on Olga. In fact, most of their children preferred their father to their mother.

That was in Greg King last book. "the fate of the Romanovs" The information came from the archievs in Russia and well documented. Both his book and Virginia Rounding's book broke the chocolate box image of the Imperial Family for me. Do read it before you judge if you are really interested in the truth.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on November 16, 2012, 01:00:31 PM
Back to topic, please.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2012, 04:45:15 PM
I do wonder if Marie had a governess ?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 16, 2012, 05:36:56 PM
^ fgskjfwqgaweioh SERIOUSLY ERIC? why ask such a question  which i bid you know it already.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2012, 07:58:12 AM
How do you know I know ? I know about her English Nanny and more from Charlotte Zeepvat's "From Cradle to Throne".
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on November 17, 2012, 08:16:04 AM
I do wonder if Marie had a governess ?

Never read Maria's memoirs?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2012, 10:09:27 AM
I did. She did not seem to have a lasting relationship with her unlike Alicky with Margaret Jackson...
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Svetabel on November 17, 2012, 12:06:13 PM
I did. She did not seem to have a lasting relationship with her unlike Alicky with Margaret Jackson...

So, you DO know that Maria had a governess, why asking it?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: darius on November 17, 2012, 12:58:42 PM
Some very frustrating posts on this thread by people or persons determined to blur fiction, surmise and fantasy.  Absolutely futile!  Let´s take the historical evidence as it is.  Family dominated by a strong mother and a weaker father.  A desparately ill son and heir and a troubling political situation.  Four daughters on the cusp of adulthood discovering the world as best they could.  From all accounts family life was of a high quality with good interaction between all members and the normal teenage frustrations etc.  Had Olga A. wished to escape she would have found ways and means.  But no, the loving family unit stayed together to the very bitter end.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on November 17, 2012, 02:22:32 PM
Stay on topic, please. Any further comments about OTMA should be taken to the appropriate threads. Only direct comparisons between their situation and that of Marie & Dmitri are appropriate for this thread. Thank you.

As for Eric's comment--is it the distinction between a nanny and a governess? I don't know enough about the daily workings of Serge & Ella's household to know the names of who may have served in these roles for Marie but it was usually 2 different people as the charge aged. He mentions she had an English nanny from Charlotte Z's book but did she also have a governess? I would presume so given the time and her status.

I did find this bit online: " Later she had another governess, mademoiselle Hélčne who taught her French and stayed with her until her marriage."

Re: Dmitri & Elizabeth: " Dmitri was terrified that he would be sent back to live with his father, Elizabeth wrote. "Dmitri simply sobs and clings to me," she wrote. "His intense fright was the idea of having to leave me. He decided he must watch over me as Uncle is no more and clings to me to such a degree that the arrival of his father was more an anguish than a pleasure, the intense fear he would take him."" This from Hugo Mager's book on Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Captain Koala on April 23, 2013, 01:17:24 AM
Can I ask a question and i don't know if it's been covered before and I don;t want to cause offense, but after reading MP Jnr's books i kinda get the feeling she may have been a lesbian?
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on April 23, 2013, 09:28:39 AM
I don't know if she was a lesbian but her words and actions denote an almost hostile attitude towards men. I don't think one needs to be a psychiatrist to trace most of this back to her relationship with her father. Her brother Dimitri was pretty much the only person, male or female, she really seemed to love. So I think it was more of a psychological issue rather than a sexual orientation one--she seems asexual more than anything.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on April 23, 2013, 09:49:41 AM
I'm not sure that her actions show hostility to men, as distinct from an inability to form lasting relationships with them. After all, she married Sergei Putiatin from choice.

I would agree, however, that her father's actions were at the root of her problems.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: grandduchessella on April 23, 2013, 03:39:54 PM
I said almost hostile because it wasn't quite to that level but she seemed to have a pretty contemptuous attitude towards them based on her writings and actions.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 23, 2013, 05:47:48 PM
Yes. She was only nice to her son & brother.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 07, 2014, 12:57:36 AM
That's a pretty broad generalization. Most historians agree that Maria P. loved her brother Dmitri more than anyone else throughout her life. Her relationship with her son Lennart was a bit different, as they did not become close until later in her life. As a royal, MP was raised to behave properly so she was probably what we would consider "nice" to a good many people. For example, she looked after her parents in law, the Putiatins, for many years after her divorce from their son, something she was not obliged to do.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2014, 09:56:04 PM
Yes. Although it seems none of her marriages last nor was she close to her ex-husbands after they divorce. I think a bit of abandonment issues after her father left (bit like Diana). But while Diana bonded with her sons, Marie didn't until much later.
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Kalafrana on October 08, 2014, 03:38:03 AM
In those days divorce was a major step, so it would be a contradiction in terms for a person to divorce and then be close to her ex-husbands!

Interesting that she was on good terms with Serge Putiatin's parents, and provided for them.

Ann
Title: Re: Ella and her foster children Marie Pavlovna and Dmitri
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2014, 08:24:25 PM
Well...Marie's Swedish Royal father-in-law did not abandon her either. He rescued her financially when she cannot pay her bills.