Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Habsburgs => Topic started by: anabel on September 07, 2005, 12:01:38 PM

Title: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: anabel on September 07, 2005, 12:01:38 PM
Hi! I know there is already a topic about the children of Franz Joseph and Elisabeth, but I wanted to start a topic only for Marie Valérie as I think she is much more interesting than the homespun Gisela or the crazy Rudolf. I would like to discuss her personality, her relation with her mother, with her husband, etc and get to know more things about her. Also, I would like to know what she thought about other royals (the Romanows, the Hohenzollern, the Windsors,...). And of course I would love to see pic and portraits of her and her own big family! :) :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 08, 2005, 07:06:45 AM
anabel, some interesting facts about M.V.:
- Tsar Nicholas was present at the baptism of her daughter Hedwig in September 1896
- she thought that Princess Viktoria of Prussia wasn´t a nice person, when she met her, but she liked her younger sister Margarete. She said about her:" She is such a lovely little person, that I´d love to get to know her nearer".
- Her opinion about the three Hessian sisters and their brother:" Viktoria Battenberg - rather mean, Princess Heinrich - quite nice and Alix, still unmarried but extremly beautiful. Their brother Ernst Ludwig is still quite boyish.
- when visiting England with her mother, she was afraid of the old Queen
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on September 09, 2005, 01:47:13 AM
Marie Valerie looked very pretty when she was young. So pity she had no much resemblance to her breath-taking mother...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: crazy_wing on September 09, 2005, 07:19:33 PM
True!  she was very cute as a child.  Unfortunately that none of Sisi's daughters inherit her beauty.  One good thing Marie Valerie did inherit from her mother is her beautiful hair :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: crazy_wing on September 09, 2005, 07:20:21 PM
Did Marie Valerie write any memoirs?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: crazy_wing on September 10, 2005, 03:10:34 AM
- Marie Valerie was born in Hungary which was unusual.  Usually imperial children were born in Austria but Sisi was determined to give birth in Hungary, a country she loved very much.  And b/c of this, it was rumored that her father was not Franz Joseph but Guyla Andrassy.  

- Marie Valerie, unlike her siblings, was brought up by Sisi herself.   They never parted until she married.

- She married her cousin Franz Salvator, Archduke of  Austria-Tuscany for love.  

- She was linked to the Prince of Saxony and Prince of Braganza.

- Marie Valerie acted as a go between for FJ and Sisi.  Sisi always mumbled because she didn't want ppl to see her bad teeth.  FJ on the other hand, was losing his hearing as he got older and could not hear what Sisi says.  So MV would repeat what her mother said.  

- Marie Valerie disapproved of her parents' friendship with Katherina Schratt.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 10, 2005, 05:20:42 AM
Quote
Did Marie Valerie write any memoirs?

She wanted to write a biography about her mother, but this was never put into action  :-/. Her diary (1878-1899) was published by Martha Schrad.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 10, 2005, 05:40:35 AM
Quote
- Marie Valerie was born in Hungary which was unusual.  Usually imperial children were born in Austria but Sisi was determined to give birth in Hungary, a country she loved very much.  And b/c of this, it was rumored that her father was not Franz Joseph by Guyla Andrassy.

- Because of these rumours Marie Valérie was called the "Hungarian Child". However, it doesn´t seem likely that Andrássy was her father as Elisabeth was a woman who didn´t like "physical love".

- Marie Valérie was very sad because of these roumors as she loved her father dearly. She also tried to underline her Hapsburgian roots through making a "Hapsburgian lip".

- Elisabeth once said to her sister-in-law Marie José that her relationship with Andrássy was never poissoned by love. After hearing this, Marie Valérie was nearly mad of joy (she thought that this proved that Andrássy can´t be her father).

- Although she was raised Hungarian by her mother, Marie Valérie hated this country and its people (especially Andrássy) as adult

Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on September 10, 2005, 03:14:53 PM


How did her three children die?  Did they die young?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: crazy_wing on September 10, 2005, 04:49:46 PM
Quote
- Marie Valerie was born in Hungary which was unusual.  Usually imperial children were born in Austria but Sisi was determined to give birth in Hungary, a country she loved very much.  And b/c of this, it was rumored that her father was not Franz Joseph by Guyla Andrassy.

- Because of these rumours Marie Valérie was called the "Hungarian Child". However, it doesn´t seem likely that Andrássy was her father as Elisabeth was a woman who didn´t like "physical love".

- Marie Valérie was very sad because of these roumors as she loved her father dearly. She also tried to underline her Hapsburgian roots through making a "Hapsburgian lip".

- Elisabeth once said to her sister-in-law Marie José that her relationship with Andrássy was never poissoned by love. After hearing this, Marie Valérie was nearly mad of joy (she thought that this proved that Andrássy can´t be her father).

- Although she was raised Hungarian by her mother, Marie Valérie hated this country and its people (especially Andrássy) as adult



Yup, sisi and andrassy were probably not lovers at all.  Their relationship was platonic.  

Yes, marie valerie hated andrassy.  She disliked the fact that she was rumored to be his daughter.  
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 10, 2005, 05:31:45 PM
Quote
Thank you so much Agneschen and Marie Charlotte!!!! ;D ;D ;D

How did her three children die?  Did they die young?

Franz Carl Salvator died fairly young, aged 25 after WWI. because of the spanish flu. Maria died in 1936 in Innsbruck. Theodor Salvator died in 1978 aged 79. He inherited Castle Wallsee.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on September 10, 2005, 05:51:18 PM
Why were they buried with her then?  Is it because they didn't marry? (did they marry?) ???
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 10, 2005, 06:01:16 PM
The youngest daughter of Marie Valérie, Agnes, was born in Bad Ischl on June 26th 1911. The little girl only lived for eight hours. Of course Marie Valérie and Franz Salvator were disturbed, but it was a comfort for them that their 10th child had been baptised and had received " the eternity of joy after moment of life." In this moment of grief Marie Valerie´s thoughts were yet again by her mother:"How comforting to presume, that this little grandchild has maybe finally helped her to go to heaven."
Agnes grave in Bad Ischl
(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/austria/badischl/1911%20Agnes.JPG)
Also Marie Valérie´s eldest (and most beloved) daughter Elisabeth ("Ella") died young, aged 36.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 10, 2005, 06:03:47 PM
Quote
Why were they buried with her then?  Is it because they didn't marry? (did they marry?) ???

Franz Carl and Maria didn´t marry, so it was logical that they were buried in the family grave. Theodor inherited Castle Wallsee (the family grave is in the little town near the castle) so he and his wife were buried there too.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 11, 2005, 06:25:33 AM
Archduchess Marie was a very lively, sporty young woman. Nevertheless she spent the time before her death in a sanatorium in Innsbruck and died aged 35.

The following members of Marie Valérie's family are buried in Sindelburg near Wallsee, Lower Austria.

Marie Valérie (1868-1924)
Franz Salvator (1866-1939)
Franz Carl Salvator (1893-1918)
Theodor Salvator (1899-1978)
Maria Theresia von Waldburg-Zeil (1901-1967)
Marie Elisabeth (1901-1936)

Anna Amélie von Schönburg-Waldenburg (1936-1966)
Hedwig von Lichem-Löwenburg (1938-2000)
(wives of Archduke Franz Salvator, born 1927, grandson of Marie Valérie and Franz Salvator)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: gem_10 on September 12, 2005, 12:55:44 AM
Quote
anabel, some interesting facts about M.V.:
- Tsar Nicholas was present at the baptism of her daughter Hedwig in September 1896
- she thought that Princess Viktoria of Prussia wasn´t a nice person, when she met her, but she liked her younger sister Margarete. She said about her:" She is such a lovely little person, that I´d love to get to know her nearer".
- Her opinion about the three Hessian sisters and their brother:" Viktoria Battenberg - rather mean, Princess Heinrich - quite nice and Alix, still unmarried but extremly beautiful. Their brother Ernst Ludwig is still quite boyish.
- when visiting England with her mother, she was afraid of the old Queen



She didn't said anything about Ella of Hesse? Hehe... Marie Valerie's daughter Elisabeth was nicknamed Ella. Do you think she took it after Ella of Hesse's nickname?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: crazy_wing on September 12, 2005, 01:05:32 AM
Maybe Ella was in Russia and Marie Valerie didn't have a chance to see her?

Marie Valerie must have seen and traveled a lot with her mother.  
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 12, 2005, 05:12:42 AM
Quote


She didn't said anything about Ella of Hesse? Hehe... Marie Valerie's daughter Elisabeth was nicknamed Ella. Do you think she took it after Ella of Hesse's nickname?

Her daughter was named after her mother, Ella was just the Italian nickname, as this was the first language of her husband. Marie Valerie visited Darmstadt in 1891 and maybe Ella (of Hesse) wasn´t there.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 12, 2005, 05:31:17 AM
Does anybody have the portrait of Marie Valerie and Ella by Koppay? It´s such a lovely portrait, if anyone have it, please post it! :-*
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 13, 2005, 05:28:32 AM
Marie Valerie with her favourite cousin Amalie in Bavaria
(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/royal/gifs/marievalaustria4.jpg)
Marie Charlotte (or somebody else), do you have any pics of a grown-up Ella? She was said to be the old Kaiser´s favourite and most beautiful grandchild (besides Elisabeth Marie). Are you of the same opinion? I think Valerie´s Hedwig was quite cute, too.
(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/habsburg/hbl-tuscany/1896%20Hedwig-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 13, 2005, 03:35:50 PM



Yes, Franz Joseph loved Ella very much. Marie Valérie also wrote in her diary that Empress Elisabeth, who didn't like little children at all, spent a lot of time with Ella.
Marie Valérie's daughters weren't real beauties. But I think Hedwig and Mathilde were quite pretty. Her younger sons looked strange, but Hubert was quite handsome.

Marie  :D
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Agneschen on September 13, 2005, 04:21:50 PM

Erzsi was Kaiser Franz Josef's favourite granddaughter but he was devoted to Marie Valerie's children. He hoped that Archduke Karl (later to become Karl I) would marry Elisabeth Franziska "Ella" but the young man had already set his heart on Zita of Bourbon-Parma.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on September 14, 2005, 11:12:37 AM
Thanks Marie Charlotte and Agneschen! Marie, I have never seen the one with all children in 1926! Wow! Ella wasn´t that good-looking anymore...I have to agree, Hubert was quite handsome as was Clemens in my opinion, but thedor really looked a bit strange (don´t get me wrong  ;)).
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 16, 2005, 02:16:42 AM
Yep, you can find more here

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Searcharchiv.aspx

Suchbegriff = Erzherzogin Marie Valerie

These great pics show Marie Valérie in 1917. She was 49 years old, but looked much older, don't you think?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: leanora on November 06, 2005, 08:16:22 PM
I like this thread because I am a great fan of the habsburg family, particularly of Sisi, Franz Joseph and their children

Marie-Valérie seems to have been very well-balanced, good and generous. People who speak German will find a lot of informations in this book "kaiserin Elisabeth und ihre töchter" (the empress Elisabeth and her daughters) from Martha SCHAD. There are a lot of photos and portraits as well as informations on the three Erzherzogins (Archduchesses Sophie, Gisele and Marie-Valérie), daugthers of Sisi and franz Joseph.

Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 12, 2005, 07:30:04 AM
Marie Valérie was such a cute child! :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2005, 07:50:19 AM
Yes...She looks like Franz Josef very much.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 12, 2005, 07:55:29 AM
Oh, do you think so? I don´t think that she had much resemblance with her father concerning looks. But she had indeed inherited much of his personality!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2005, 09:45:41 AM
I think she is the most round up personality. She wasn't as ugly as Gisela or as clever as Rudolf.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 12, 2005, 10:24:37 AM
Quote
I think she is the most round up personality. She wasn't as ugly as Gisela or as clever as Rudolf.

Very charming! ;) I wouldn´t say that Gisela was that ugly! A bit colourless and hausfrauish maybe. But it seems to be rather rare that daughters of such stunning beauties like Elisabeth become as beautiful as their mothers.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 12, 2005, 04:27:14 PM
Quote
I think she is the most round up personality. She wasn't as ugly as Gisela or as clever as Rudolf.


Poor Gisela! I never thought she was ugly--no Sisi for sure but not horrible. Luckily for MV she wasn't as high-strung and temperamental as Rudolf either.

I know her husband remarried after MV died but was her marriage to him a love-match? They certainly had a large family.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on November 12, 2005, 05:37:17 PM
I believe it was a love match from MV's point of view.  Whether or not he felt the same way I don't know, but I blieve they did have a happy marriage.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2005, 07:03:28 PM
I agree as a variation of what Sisi said of her situation "one does not sent the daughter of an emperor packing". However I did heard that Gisela's marriage was not happy. Gisela loved her husband, but he was definitely not with her. It was just a marriage, no more, no less.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 13, 2005, 06:44:01 AM
I would say that both marriages were quite happy. Leopold wasn´t a picnic and could be quite stern at times, but Gisela had such a calm temper that they had a balanced relationship.
Marie Valerie certainly married for love and nothing else (Franz Salvator wasn´t a good match, as he was the second son of the second son of the non-reigning part of the Habsburg-family), but Elisabeth wanted Marie Valerie to marry for love and she told her that she even could marry a chimney sweeper if she wanted to. Franz Salvator remarried 10 years after Marie Valerie´s death, I think this is ok.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: leanora on November 13, 2005, 09:59:44 AM
There are a few informations on Marie- VAlérie in the Brigitte Hamann's book.

Marie Valérie was very very shy.. She called this deep shyness "my génation" (sorry I can't traduce in english,  but it means that this shyness was a big trouble for her).. When she was toddler, Her mother's ladies in honor didn't like her, because like all shy people, she seemed haughty and distant. She was said to be "strange". And the fact that she was the "kedvesem", the dear daughter of the hatred Sissi, didn't arrange things.

I find that Marie-valérie looked like her father very much. They had also identical conceptions. The difference was that Marie-Valérie was not really Habsburg by heart. Of course, she loved her country, her family and its high position, but she would dream of a huge German Community which would have included Habsburg ,Hollenzollern and all the german blood people. In this point of view, she was different of her family and of the court which had anti-germanic feelings.

After her mother's death, she seemed to have had very hard feelings for her family, except for her father of course(maybe a disgut of court life I don't know). At the beginning of the 20th century, She wrote in her diary that she wanted her children to grow up far away from this court and this family. She spend the rest of her life in a real isolation in her Wallee castle, leaving it only for the wedding of Charles I and Zita, or to close her father's eyes.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 13, 2005, 10:22:19 AM
Dear leonora,

I don´t think Marie Valérie was hated as a toddler nor that she was that shy. She wasn´t liked by certain ladies-in-waiting because she was "the Hungarian child", but that´s all.
You are right, Marie Valerie had quite pro-German feelings, but this was something very common in Austria in the late 1800s untill the early 1900s. Sadly, she didn´t like either the Slavic nor the Hungarian part of her father´s monarchy as a grown-up; She moreover wanted a united Germany with Austria as a part of it. But I wouldn´t say that the Austrian court had anti-German feelings (maybe for some time after Königsgrätz, but this didn´t stay for long). Of course, Crown Prince Rudolf hated the Hohenzollern, but after his death there were not any of this feelings left. Moreover, Franz Joseph was delighted that he had an alliance with Wilhelm II.
Neither would I say that Marie Valerie lived in isolation in her castle. She didn´t like court life, but she loved doing charity work, visiting relatives etc.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2005, 10:58:10 AM
One of Valerie's closest friend was Madi, Princess Maria Teresa of Bourbon-Sicily, daughter of Mathilde, Countess Trani. That was recorded in her dairies that was edited by Matha Schad a few years ago and published.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on November 13, 2005, 11:04:59 AM
Yeah, Valerie was close to several of her cousins, especially Amélie in Bavaria, Louise d´Aléncon or Maria Teresa ("Mädi") of Bourbon-Sicily.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on November 24, 2005, 06:16:42 AM
Quote

Indeed, it was a fancy dress ball organized by the Archduchess herself on 14th February 1888 in the Marble Hall of the Royal Palace in Budapest


Herself and on the 14th February? St-Valentine's day? ;D
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 24, 2005, 08:43:55 AM
Eric, could you please show us these pictures of Marie Valérie and her cousins?

Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: leanora on November 24, 2005, 05:44:45 PM
Quote
Dear leonora,

I don´t think Marie Valérie was hated as a toddler nor that she was that shy. She wasn´t liked by certain ladies-in-waiting because she was "the Hungarian child", but that´s all.
You are right, Marie Valerie had quite pro-German feelings, but this was something very common in Austria in the late 1800s untill the early 1900s. Sadly, she didn´t like either the Slavic nor the Hungarian part of her father´s monarchy as a grown-up; She moreover wanted a united Germany with Austria as a part of it. But I wouldn´t say that the Austrian court had anti-German feelings (maybe for some time after Königsgrätz, but this didn´t stay for long). Of course, Crown Prince Rudolf hated the Hohenzollern, but after his death there were not any of this feelings left. Moreover, Franz Joseph was delighted that he had an alliance with Wilhelm II.
Neither would I say that Marie Valerie lived in isolation in her castle. She didn´t like court life, but she loved doing charity work, visiting relatives etc.


Linnea

Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that there was a great antipathy between the austrian and the german courts since the disaster of 1862 (battle of Sadowa). After the defeat, Austria was forced to release its possessions in italia (venetia, lombardia,...). And above all, Austria lost also its influence over the germanic confederation. But the austrian court never forgot this defeat and kept anti-germanic feelings.

During the first world war, germany and Austria were fighting together, but it was only for political reasons. All the other countries of Europe had defiance and antipathy for Whilelm II , included Austria.

In the case of Marie-Valérie, I said that she lived in a real isolation because it seems that she didn't go to the court frequently. As I said She wanted her children to be raised far away from the court, and hersef seemed to have a sort of disgut.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on January 02, 2006, 06:16:01 AM
Quote
I don´t think that she had much resemblance with her father concerning looks.


I do think that Marie Valerie was the spitting image of her father. Just look at this portrait of young Franz Joseph.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/fj.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 02, 2006, 01:42:37 PM
I agree, Sveta. I figured she must take after FJ since she didn't seem to resemble Sisi but that portrait really seems to clinch it.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on January 08, 2006, 10:25:25 AM
Quote

I do think that Marie Valerie was the spitting image of her father. Just look at this portrait of young Franz Joseph.


I still think that those two didn´t even look a bit a like! ;DJust think of Marie Valerie´s brown eyes and hair and her father´s blue ones and his blonde hair! But maybe it´s just me! ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: dboro on January 19, 2006, 05:18:58 AM
Quote

I do think that Marie Valerie was the spitting image of her father. Just look at this portrait of young Franz Joseph.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/fj.jpg)


Hi, Sveta, I need your help. Do you have any information (location/source, artist...) about this portrait of Emperor Franz Joseph posted by you earlier?
It seems to me, this is a variant of one of the portraits painted by austrian court painter Anton Einsle.
Einsle painted his first portrait in 1848. In the late 1840s and in the first half of the 1850s it was followed by numerous variants and copies, also in full-length.
It was often copied by other artists, too.

A full-length version by Einsle himself:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/einsle_x.jpg)
An excellent small version by fellow court painter Franz Russ:
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b15/dboro/russ.jpg)

What about your version? I'm really curious... Thanks,

Daniel
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on January 19, 2006, 06:39:06 AM
Quote

Linnea

Perhaps I am mistaken, but it seems to me that there was a great antipathy between the austrian and the german courts since the disaster of 1862 (battle of Sadowa). After the defeat, Austria was forced to release its possessions in italia (venetia, lombardia,...). And above all, Austria lost also its influence over the germanic confederation. But the austrian court never forgot this defeat and kept anti-germanic feelings.


Leonora,

I don´t know how much you know about German and Austrian history, but certain things you wrote are simly not right.
Of course the Habsburg family weren´t amused with their loose of power after Königsgraetz, but after a while they went on.
The Austrian court didn´t really like the Hohenzollern one in Berlin, but they were very close to their Bavarian, Württembergian etc. relations in Germany, so you can´t say "The Austrian court didn´t like the German ones".
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on January 19, 2006, 10:07:24 AM
Hi, Dboro!

As for that portrait I can say that the caption in the book where I had founded out the painting said "by Anton Einsle, about 1855". The book itself is "Franz Joseph und Elisabeth" by G.Kugler,in German, 2001. BTW, very good book! :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 03, 2006, 05:38:10 AM
I'm looking for pics of Franz Salvator, his children and his second wife Melanie von Risenfels.


Franz Salvator di Toscana
( * 21. August 1866; † 20. April 1939 )


First marriage: Marie Valerie of Austria (1868-1924)
Second Marriage:  Melanie von Risenfels (1898-1984)

Children with Marie Valerie:

Elisabeth (1892-1930)
Franz Karl (1893-1918 )
Hubert Salvator (1894-1971)
Hedwig (1896-1970)
Theodor Salvator (1899-1978 )
Gertrud (1900-1962)
Maria (1901-1936)
Clemens Salvator (1904-1974)
Mathilde (1906-1991)
Agnes (1911-1911)

And an illegitimate child with Stephanie von Hohenlohe:

Franz Josef von Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst (1914)


Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on March 03, 2006, 01:32:59 PM
Marie Valérie & Franz Salvator
(http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/8563/100028190lj.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 07, 2006, 07:43:44 AM
After his first wife Marie Valérie had died in 1924, Franz Salvator got to know the three daughters of Philipp Baron von Risenfels (without "ie") who lived at Castle Seisenegg in Amstetten / Lower Austria.
Melanie Marie Agathe, Baroness von Risenfels was born on 20 September 1898 at Seisenegg. Her sisters were Maria Anna and Johanna. When Franz got to know them, they were all unmarried.

Melanie and Franz married on 28 April 1934 in Vienna. After the marriage, Franz lived at Seisenegg, too. The marriage was of course morganatic, but they were very happy. Franz Salvator's children seemed to get along with her stepmother quite well.

Franz died on 20 April 1939 and was laid to rest in Sindelburg next to his first wife Marie Valérie. Melanie died on 10 November 1984 in Amstetten. She was laid to rest in the chapell of Seisenegg.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: La_Rainha on March 08, 2006, 06:44:41 AM
It was interest to read this about Marie Valeries Husband! I didn`t know, that he had an illigitime child and that he married in second marriage!
Frankly speaken, isn`t it a bit unusual, that this young woman Melanie got married with a man, who was 32 years older than her and was father of  11 (!!!!!!!!!)
children!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: La_Rainha on March 08, 2006, 11:35:24 AM
Sorry. no! But some more informations!
Franz Joseph von Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst was born in 1914 as son of Prince Fríedrich Franz, Prince of Hohenlohe-Waldenburg Schillingsfürst and the vienna girl Stephanie Richter. It was a morganatic marriage and the only reason was to hush up the affair between Stephanie Richter with Erzherzog Franz Salvator von Habsburg-Toskana! Friedrich Franz declared the child as legitime and gave him his name!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 09, 2006, 03:29:01 AM
There are some pics of Franz von Hohenlohe in "Hitlers Spionin" by Martha Schad. I'll post them later.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on March 27, 2006, 08:01:53 AM
Thanks very much for your reply and the picture.
It´s very nice and I have never seen it.

Do you also have any photos in the book of Franz as an adult or older child?

Thanks for replying, does not matter, if you do not have any.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 09, 2006, 02:30:00 AM
Dear Britt,

I'm sorry for answering that late.

There are two or three pictures of Franz Joseph in "Hitler's Spionin", but unfortunately I don't have the book. I'm quite sure that I've scanned some of them, but I can't find them at the moment ...

BTW: Franz Joseph Rudolf Hans Weriand Max Stefan Anton (born Vienna 5 Dec 1914) seems to be still alive.

Do you wish to see some pictures of Melanie Risenfels?

Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Emilia on April 10, 2006, 08:09:29 AM
Thanks for the info, MarieCharlotte!

BTW, how does one know that Franz Josef is Franz Salvator´s child? Did he recognise the child?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: ashdean on October 07, 2006, 06:14:32 AM
Seem to remember reading that Marie-Valerie sent her three poodles by the Orient Express to Paris to be clipped!!!!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on October 07, 2006, 06:47:35 AM
Really? I can´t imagine Valerie doing something like this, but who knows for sure? Where did you read it, ashdean?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: ashdean on October 07, 2006, 08:01:21 AM
A book on the Orient Express.....but cannot remember the details...sorry
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 07, 2006, 10:19:28 AM
Seem to remember reading that Marie-Valerie sent her three poodles by the Orient Express to Paris to be clipped!!!!

Hä? That sounds like nonsense to my ears. To be clipped? That means to cut their hair, right?  ::)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: tatianolishka_ on October 07, 2006, 11:57:09 AM
Yup. Clip their hair. Feel sorry for the poor poodles. Such ridiculous haircuts, even though back in the day their hair was cut like that by their owners (most likely duck hunters) so their joints would stay warm when they crossed a river to get the shot-down game.

Sorry, little off topic. :)

TatOlia.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronika on October 25, 2006, 12:39:24 PM
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4724/marievalriejouantavecrustimoez0.jpg)

Valérie with Rustimo
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Sissi on October 25, 2006, 04:52:25 PM
Great picture thanks, this is the first time I see a picture of Rustino!!!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on October 25, 2006, 08:24:38 PM
For anyone who doesn't know the story--he was her mother's 'blackamoor'. He had been a gift from Khedive Ismail of Egypt. He was eventually allowed to return to his homeland. There's a copy of this picture in The Last Courts of Europe by Robert Massie. It didn't give his name though.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronika on October 26, 2006, 05:06:52 AM
(http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/rodina/valerie14.jpg)

Valerie with her cousin Luisa.

(http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/rodina/valerie.jpg)

Valerie in 1890.

(http://cisarovna-sisi.wz.cz/rodina/valerie12.jpg)

V. with her family.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 26, 2006, 05:56:04 AM
For anyone who doesn't know the story--he was her mother's 'blackamoor'. He had been a gift from Khedive Ismail of Egypt. He was eventually allowed to return to his homeland. There's a copy of this picture in The Last Courts of Europe by Robert Massie. It didn't give his name though.

"Rustimo" was even baptized. Elisabeth gave him the name "Rudolf" ... so his full name was "Rudolf Rustimo". Strange.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Sissi on October 26, 2006, 09:16:57 AM
That is weird indeed why would she named him Rudolf??' :o
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on October 26, 2006, 01:17:47 PM
Strange, Rudolf was the name of her son and of the first Habsburg king  ::)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 26, 2006, 03:22:03 PM
According to Hamann, Rustimo's baptism was at Vienna on May 26th 1878. Crownprince Rudolf was his godfather. Maybe that's why he was called Rudolph. His name was written with "ph", maybe to make a difference between his name and the name of the Crownprince.
Elisabeth wrote to her mother Luise: Today there was the baptism of Rustimo in Valérie's room [...] Rudolf was his godfather. It was ceremonial and ridiculous. People cried and laughed. Rustimo himself was touched by the ceremony and cried.

Rustimo also attended to Marie Wallersee's wedding to Larisch at Gödöllö. He went next to Valérie into the church.

In 1884, Rustimo became "Kammeransager" ... I don't know how to translate it. It must be a job at court. Elisabeth's ladies-in-waiting didn't like him at all. They said Rustimo was cheeky and conceited. In 1885, he was suddenly out of Elisabeth's favour. He was sent to Ybbs and died in 1892.

Elisabeth only wanted to have some kind of toy to provoke the Austrian court ... Poor Rustimo.

By the way: Duke Max, Elisabeth's father, also had four black servants. They were baptized in the Frauenkirche at Munich.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2006, 09:40:04 PM
This episode revealed a ruthless side to Sisi...she used the poor blackamoor and discrard him when he failed to amused her.  :(
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronika on December 10, 2006, 02:19:11 PM
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2593/030na4.png)

Young Marie Valerie
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Laura_ on December 10, 2006, 02:25:01 PM
so cute  :) i've been looking at her photos and she really was a beautiful child ,no wonder she was her mother's fave ...and what a lovely little hat  :D( sorry cant help myself  ;) )
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2006, 08:38:46 PM
She was definitely Franz Josef 's child in looks and in temperment.  ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronika on December 11, 2006, 05:08:34 AM
She was Franz Joseph´s child in tepmperament, but I think she wasn´t Franz Joseph´s child in looks. But it can be only my opinion. I like Marie Valerie photos, when she was a little child. Yes, she was very cute. ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on December 12, 2006, 01:43:55 AM
I have heard that there are children which do not look like father or mother... ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2006, 02:58:55 AM
But looked like granny or grandad right ? I think she looked more of the Hapsburg side. Both Duke Max and Ludovika were stunning as young man & woman. So it must be the Hapsburg side I guess.. ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronika on December 12, 2006, 11:55:31 AM
I have heard that there are children which do not look like father or mother... ;)
;DYes
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on January 10, 2007, 09:10:55 AM
Marie Valeries daughter Elisabeth

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/oesterreich-000020.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 15, 2007, 06:11:17 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Hapsburg/24c0_1_sbl.jpg)

A drawing of the Imperial Family of Austria and Hungary- the Crown Prince Rudolph,  Emperor Franz Josef, Empress Elisabeth and the Archduchesses Marie Valerie and Gisela!  (sorry it blurry and small!)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 15, 2007, 10:36:14 PM
It's up for sale on Ebay right now. 
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Laura_ on January 16, 2007, 05:11:07 AM
that image is reproduced in every good book on the Empress :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on January 16, 2007, 01:18:35 PM
that image is reproduced in every good book on the Empress :)

Not only in the good books but in every one about this subject! ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 17, 2007, 08:01:31 AM
Sissi loved her children, I think she doesn't have to like them. (how can a mother not love her own children? that barbaric and unhuman!) Sissi must have loved her children, but she possibly didn't like her daughter Gisela, because she wasn't a beauty and I not sure why Sissi was nasty to her son, her only heir!
she loved her daughter Marie Valerie of course, because MV was a "beauty". poor Gisela wasn't bless with good looks and had large eye brows (she is pretty, like most girls have something pretty about them, but not a beauty) and i don't know what her issues with her son is but, am sure it stupid reason, she did mourn for him until her own death in 1898.
For little poor Sophie, the failed Archduchess was loved by her mother. and as 1st born, of course loved. However Sophie died young. and that Sissi dislike her motherinlaw the Archduchess Sophie, am sure she (Sissi) hated that her daughther was named "Sophie".


And i find Sissi  not to be a great beauty herself, in some pics in her early ones, she looked like a guy to me. and what i heard of her, she can be nasty! Looks aren't everthing!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on January 17, 2007, 08:37:56 AM
As far as Sisi's beauty goes, I think the photos of her don't do her justice, just like Grand Duchess Ella.  Both were raved as beauties during their lifetime, but I have trouble seeing it in their photos.

One reason Sisi might not have been that kind to her son was that he was a boy and the heir.  She had to have him, not necessarily wanted him.  Also, Sisi was only 15 when she got married and was not ready for all the *duties* of a wife.  I think she felt she was taken advantage of and, for all she knew, her son could do the same thing to someone else.  There may be no validity to this at all, it is only my opinion.

Also, I always thought both Gisela and Marie Valerie were pretty.  Gisela was certainly plainer, but I wouldn't call her ugly by any means!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 17, 2007, 08:10:50 PM
I am sure Sisi thought Gisela was ugly. In fact after seeing her first grandchild, she comment that the child was "Ugly...Just like Gisela"  :(
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 18, 2007, 07:53:20 AM
I am sure Sisi thought Gisela was ugly. In fact after seeing her first grandchild, she comment that the child was "Ugly...Just like Gisela"  :(


But am sure, she did love them (like i said before, with everyone saying: "to Sissi thought Gisela and Sophie were ugly" :-\   that’s why I am saying this again, so you don't have the pay any thought to it and am 100 % sure you all got it! ;) ). Just favored Marie Valerie because she a beauty .

 I have only seen one painting of the little Archduchess Sophie, I think she was adorable! Out of all the children, i think Valerie is the only one that looks like her mother. Since the other three had little colored hair and to me looked more like Franz Joseph.

If Sissi didn't love her oldest three, shame on her for that. Sissi herself is no beauty to me. I think her sister Sophie is prettier.

I have three feelings for Sissi-
 one she was pretty but not beautiful to me,
two she was bratty and mean to her children (expt Valerie) and everyone else and
three- i like her, but i don't like her attitude.

Sorry Sissi lovers. thats just me.  ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Laura_ on January 18, 2007, 10:27:51 AM
to me, Empress Elisabeth was a legendary beauty...just like Queen Alexandra,Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Queen Marie of Romania :) but there are some pics that don't do her justice unfortunately.

i find Valerie rather pretty ,i do not think she was a great beauty like her mother,as for Gisela well ...she's deffinetly not on my 'favourite princesses list'  ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Elizaveta on January 18, 2007, 05:02:30 PM
Mandie...you don't have to apologize! I completely agreed with you. Empress Sissi may be a great beauty in her days, but I am positive that had she lived in the modern time, she'll be definitely put aside as just another face, not someone to go "awww!" about. There's something missing about Sissi's looks...something that I can't point at...

As for Queen Alexandra, Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Queen Marie of Romania, I won't disagree. But I'd rate them much more beautiful than Sissi. They got charming features, unlike...*cough*...that nasty lady...and the fact they had wonderful personalities (though Marie was somewhat "too much") made them more appealing than the Empress.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 20, 2007, 01:24:59 PM
Mandie...you don't have to apologize! I completely agreed with you. Empress Sissi may be a great beauty in her days, but I am positive that had she lived in the modern time, she'll be definitely put aside as just another face, not someone to go "awww!" about. There's something missing about Sissi's looks...something that I can't point at...

As for Queen Alexandra, Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Queen Marie of Romania, I won't disagree. But I'd rate them much more beautiful than Sissi. They got charming features, unlike...*cough*...that nasty lady...and the fact they had wonderful personalities (though Marie was somewhat "too much") made them more appealing than the Empress.

 ;D  glad that someone argees with me! :)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 20, 2007, 08:04:16 AM
I was reading a review of the book Hitler's Spy Princess: The Extraordinary Life of Princess Stephanie von Hohenlohe. It says that she conducted an affair with Marie Valerie's husband which resulted in a child. She was married off to Friedrich Franz von Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst and on December 5, 1914 the child, Franz Josef, was born in Vienna.

Does anyone know more about this and did Marie Valerie or her family know of it? The book was written by Martha Schad who wrote a number of books on the Habsburgs.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on March 20, 2007, 03:12:30 PM
Yes, that´s it, but there was not much discussion :'(
And I miss the pictures as well.
I will send it once more. I think it was sent by MarieCharlotte or another member the last time:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/hohenlohe_stephfranz.jpg)

I wonder, if there is no adult picture of him...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on March 21, 2007, 03:01:44 AM
But the child was really the one of Franz Salvator? Are there other possible fathers??
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 24, 2007, 07:48:07 AM
There is at least one photograph of Franz, Stéphanie's son, in Hitler's Spionin by Martha Schad. I found this book at a library some years ago, but I didn't buy it.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Linnea on March 26, 2007, 02:29:58 AM
But the child was really the one of Franz Salvator? Are there other possible fathers??

I have read in Gabriele Praschl-Pichler´s book "Gott gebe ..." that Franz Salvator hadn´t only one child (Franz) born out of wedlock, but several. Does anybgody know more about this?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 26, 2007, 07:00:04 AM
Hmmm...wonder if it is still available.  ???

The book was published only some years ago, so I guess that it's still available.  ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on March 27, 2007, 02:10:02 AM
But the child was really the one of Franz Salvator? Are there other possible fathers??

I have read in Gabriele Praschl-Pichler´s book "Gott gebe ..." that Franz Salvator hadn´t only one child (Franz) born out of wedlock, but several. Does anybgody know more about this?

Are there more infos on the names and identities? Would be very interesting, because I only knew about Franz von Hohenlohe.... ::)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Greenowl on July 23, 2007, 01:39:59 PM
Has anyone read Marie Valerie's Diary? The version I have is in German and entitled "Marie Valerie. Das Tagebuch der Lieblingstochter von Kaiserin Elisabeth von Oesterreich" and edited/published by Martha and Horst Schad. What interests me is the very first entry from the then eight year old Marie Valerie, in which she claims to have a younger brother called Feri ("ich habe einen kleinen Bruder Feri und noch einen Bruder Rudolf dan eine Schwester Gisela wir sind im ganzen 4"). In the footnotes is the comment "Es ist nicht auszumachen wen Marie Valerie hier meint" (it is not clear who Marie Valerie is talking about...my rough translation). At any rate, I wonder if anyone else is familiar with this diary entry and if they would care to speculate on who Marie Valerie was referring to or was Feri merely a figment of her 8 year old imagination?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 23, 2007, 03:30:02 PM
Has anyone read Marie Valerie's Diary? The version I have is in German and entitled "Marie Valerie. Das Tagebuch der Lieblingstochter von Kaiserin Elisabeth von Oesterreich" and edited/published by Martha and Horst Schad. What interests me is the very first entry from the then eight year old Marie Valerie, in which she claims to have a younger brother called Feri ("ich habe einen kleinen Bruder Feri und noch einen Bruder Rudolf dan eine Schwester Gisela wir sind im ganzen 4"). In the footnotes is the comment "Es ist nicht auszumachen wen Marie Valerie hier meint" (it is not clear who Marie Valerie is talking about...my rough translation). At any rate, I wonder if anyone else is familiar with this diary entry and if they would care to speculate on who Marie Valerie was referring to or was Feri merely a figment of her 8 year old imagination?

We have discussed about this question for a couple of times in different German forums dedicated to Empress Elisabeth. In my opinion Marie Valérie here refers to her cousin Ferdinand Karl (later Ferdinand Burg), third son of Archduke Carl Ludwig and his second wife Maria Annunziata. Ferdinand was born at Vienna in December 1868, which means that he is a bit younger than Marie Valérie ("einen kleinen Bruder Feri"). Maybe Marie Valérie wasn't able to pronounce "Ferdinand" or his nickname was "Feri".

Anyway, maybe "Feri" is only a doll or an imaginatory friend of the Archduchess. We'll never know ...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Greenowl on July 23, 2007, 04:13:44 PM
Thanks Marie Charlotte! I never thought of her cousin Ferdinand Karl, as I was looking for someone called Franz, as "Feri" is, I think, the diminutive of the Hungarian form of Franz. However, it may well have been a doll (as teddy bears had not been invented in those days, although I believe that as a child the later Kaiser Karl was very fond of toy monkeys, which were similar to teddy bears...sorry for digressing) or an imaginery friend/brother. It is odd, but as you say, we shall probably never know
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on July 23, 2007, 05:18:26 PM
I didnt have any idea who could be Feri as well. I rather presumed, that Feri was unknown child in her surroundings.
I've never imagined, that it could be archduke.
Does anybody know, whether was published her later memories (1899-1924) by Martha and Horst Schad or another author?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on July 24, 2007, 03:35:14 AM
But it is quite strange, that she consideres Feri as "such important" to name him before her real brother Rudolf. If she was four at that tme, it might have been understandable to mix up real figures with self created ones or dolls, but with 8 you're are usually not that little anymore and already go to school (rather spoken about "normal" people), that you usually understand that difference. So it is really strange.
Did she never mention anything about that figure herself later?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 26, 2007, 04:12:41 PM
Has anyone read Marie Valerie's Diary? The version I have is in German and entitled "Marie Valerie. Das Tagebuch der Lieblingstochter von Kaiserin Elisabeth von Oesterreich" and edited/published by Martha and Horst Schad. What interests me is the very first entry from the then eight year old Marie Valerie, in which she claims to have a younger brother called Feri ("ich habe einen kleinen Bruder Feri und noch einen Bruder Rudolf dan eine Schwester Gisela wir sind im ganzen 4"). In the footnotes is the comment "Es ist nicht auszumachen wen Marie Valerie hier meint" (it is not clear who Marie Valerie is talking about...my rough translation). At any rate, I wonder if anyone else is familiar with this diary entry and if they would care to speculate on who Marie Valerie was referring to or was Feri merely a figment of her 8 year old imagination?


In the newer paperback edition of MV's Diary is a different comment: Feri was a doll!  :P
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Greenowl on July 26, 2007, 05:29:54 PM
So our speculation was correct after all!! I wonder how Martha and Horst Schad found out Feri's identity?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 27, 2007, 01:33:01 AM
In the newer paperback edition of MV's Diary is a different comment: Feri was a doll!  :P

I don't give a dime of Martha Schad's comments as they have been frequently wrong. I guess that she just doesn't know who was meant with "Feri" and gave the next best explanation she was thinking of ...  :-X
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on July 27, 2007, 02:08:41 AM
If it is only on a newer paperback, it may be Marthas interpretation ???
Is it really confirmed anywhere else that the "person" was a doll?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 27, 2007, 04:36:16 AM
Is it really confirmed anywhere else that the "person" was a doll?

No! Marie Valérie hasn't mentioned "Feri" for a second time. So I'm really sceptical about her interpretation.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Norbert on April 08, 2008, 07:16:13 AM
no other  natural children except  Prince Franz Hohenlohe by Stephanie Richter " Hitlers spy" and he had a mistress Freiin Melanie von Risenfels
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on April 13, 2008, 06:53:16 AM
no other  natural children except  Prince Franz Hohenlohe by Stephanie Richter " Hitlers spy" and he had a mistress Freiin Melanie von Risenfels

Melanie wasn't his mistress, but his second wife!!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Norbert on April 15, 2008, 01:51:17 PM
goodness , so he made an honest woman of her. Do you have the details of the marriage? many thanks
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Norbert on April 15, 2008, 01:57:07 PM
ooops, just looked her up and you are right  they married in 1934.....love to know more details about her life. I presumed they lived together for many years? Where in Vienna did they live for example..many thanks
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: ArchDss Louise-Henriette on April 22, 2008, 10:08:39 AM
Elisabeth Franziska & Hedwig of Austria
(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/1539/elisabethfranziskahedwiee5.jpg)

Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 05, 2008, 07:04:56 PM
I found this painting, it says it Marie Valerie?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/A%20Imperial%20Album/Austria/Austria-Tuscany/2374633070061759156VzARzz_fs.jpg)

I do not think it her? but another Archduchess.  :-\
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on August 05, 2008, 08:08:45 PM
It certainly doesn't look like her!  Is there another Archduchess Marie Valerie?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 05, 2008, 08:52:43 PM
I know that, am not stupid. that why am asking a question, it not a fact.

theres no other Archduchess Marie Valerie, but 100 Marias though.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on August 06, 2008, 02:16:02 AM
Yes, I know this picture and I have also seen it identified as Marie Valerie, daughter of Franz Joseph and Elisabeth. If I remember it correctly, it's also on the brilliant page of the Austrian Bildarchiv.
But in fact, it does not come very near to her appearance, only the mouth a bit, maybe a very bit, but not the blond hair and also not very much the eyes. I also wonder, if there might be a confusion, but I don't know any other Valerie of Austria apart from the mentioned one...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2008, 11:13:34 AM
Maybe just a bad picture.  ;)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on August 06, 2008, 01:31:58 PM
Yes, I think so, too, it depends on the artist, there is no other Marie Valerie, so I think...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 06, 2008, 05:15:20 PM
Maybe just a bad picture.  ;)

Indeed! lol
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on August 07, 2008, 02:51:25 AM
Do you know author of the paiting? According his name would be much easier to search whether the picture was intended as a portrait of Marie Valerie.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: erzsi on August 07, 2008, 09:44:34 AM
well the name of the painter was R. Bitterlich (vienna) you can see his name in the right side o the picture
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yseult on September 16, 2008, 02:04:59 PM
I´ve found a simply wonderful picture of Marie Valerie...but with a watermark. If anyone of you have the same picture without marks, I would be really grateful...

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/MarieValerieandumbrella.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yseult on September 17, 2008, 09:54:31 AM
Thank you so much, Veronika!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: britt.25 on September 17, 2008, 12:03:37 PM
It's really amazing and wonderful, so similar to her mother! Is there also a higher version? 
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 17, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
Indeed ! All of Sisi's nieces and sisters copied her style. Her daughters were no exception.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: gogm on September 18, 2008, 11:57:35 AM
I blew up the last image to make details more visible...

(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/43182/2694074790094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2694074790094285158YaIZot)

The image will expand when you download it from Webshots.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Luc on September 30, 2008, 12:34:57 PM
Was any engagement photograph or wedding photo made of Marie Valerie and Franz-Salvator ?? Maybe they had, unlike the Romanovs ???
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2008, 12:46:50 PM
There was of course the engagement photo of the couple that were in most books about Sisi. I haven't seen Wedding photos though. There wasn't one of Rudolf or Gisela too.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on December 25, 2008, 02:02:05 PM
 
 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/marie-valerie71.jpg)

 Little Valerie...

 (http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/MarieValerie_Rud.jpg)

 With Rudolf.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronica on December 27, 2008, 03:52:43 PM
I would love to see that painting in colour...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yseult on December 28, 2008, 03:07:30 AM
Veronica, Eric...here you have the portrait of Rudolf and Valerie in colour. Your christmas gift ;)

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/RudandValerie.jpg)

And a bonus...the portrait of Gisela with her husband Leopold.

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/GisandLeopold.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2008, 11:22:27 AM
Thanks for the Christmas gift !!! Loved it ! Are these part of a larger painting ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yseult on December 28, 2008, 12:44:26 PM
No, no part of a larger painter, but two parts of a tryptich...I´ll try to scan tomorrow the central part of the tryptich, If you want it...but the interesting ones are these two paintings, showing the three children of the emperor...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2008, 01:52:32 PM
Thanks ! Would appreciate if I see the central part as well. Is the real thing in a Church ? In Vienna or Budapest ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yseult on December 28, 2008, 02:08:56 PM
Thanks ! Would appreciate if I see the central part as well. Is the real thing in a Church ? In Vienna or Budapest ?

To say the true...I don´t know. I have the images in a book published in german. And I don´t know a single word of german...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronica on December 28, 2008, 05:12:05 PM
Veronica, Eric...here you have the portrait of Rudolf and Valerie in colour. Your christmas gift ;)


Thank you very much Yseult!! I loved my Christmas Gift!!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on January 13, 2009, 03:55:34 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/mv4.jpg)

Marie and Gisela
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Luc on February 04, 2009, 10:01:46 AM
Marie Valerie's diamond and pearls tiara:
http://ingart2.all2all.org/cms/zgaleriepopup.php?page=45&det=88&gal=50

Did anyone of you have seen a photo of her wearing it ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2009, 10:06:21 AM
I don't know if it is the same one as her marriage tiara, which she wore in a ball gown once.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on August 12, 2009, 04:12:07 PM
http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=11353411

A very nice photo of the cousins.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 17, 2009, 06:33:43 PM
What beautiful images!!! Thnak you to all of you, I like very much them, how old was arie Valerie in the photo that she appears with Gisela???
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: erzsi on August 18, 2009, 03:42:11 PM

What beautiful images!!! Thnak you to all of you, I like very much them, how old was arie Valerie in the photo that she appears with Gisela???

I think, in the Book of the Empress and her Daughters, they say it was taken in 1886, but Im not sure.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 20, 2009, 12:32:11 PM

What beautiful images!!! Thnak you to all of you, I like very much them, how old was arie Valerie in the photo that she appears with Gisela???

I think, in the Book of the Empress and her Daughters, they say it was taken in 1886, but Im not sure.

Ok. Thank you very much for the fact :-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Madame-Sisi on September 08, 2009, 07:35:08 AM
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3716/valerieandcat.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6721/180pxmarievaleriefranzs.jpg)

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3905/21513816130763aca831.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2235/21831515891058ac4e5e.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3789/21839382840142d29243m.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8558/28481955209d24a4ee36.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1262/b306474t4447680.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/899/b306486t4447600.jpg)
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3589/b306494t4447616.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9884/b306498t4447624.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8836/b306502t4447632.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5700/b306511t4447648.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8202/b4873082t4873086.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4342/b4873100t4873104.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2328/b4873142t4873146.jpg)
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/171/b10027111t10027116.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1262/b10600206t10600211.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5305/b10600227t10600232.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/9664/b10600241t10600246.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/691/b10600248t10600253.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3725/b10600255t10600260.jpg)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4484/b10600269t10600274.jpg)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1984/ca001.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9647/childrenofarchdukefranz.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/441/gggglb.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6606/hedwigeelizaf.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8565/marielouisevalerie.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1363/marievalaustria13.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3183/marievalerie.jpg)
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8813/marievalerie1.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/320/marievalerie23gv6.png)

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8967/marievalerieundmarielou.png)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1134/marievalriejouantavecru.jpg)
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6695/mvmitamelie.jpg)
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1215/valuq.jpg)
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3777/valerie7.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7337/valerie9.jpg)
(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5889/valerie154k.jpg)
(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8361/valerieella1.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 23, 2009, 12:35:09 PM
Veronica, Eric...here you have the portrait of Rudolf and Valerie in colour. Your christmas gift ;)


And a bonus...the portrait of Gisela with her husband Leopold.


Gorgeus images!!! Completely new for me!!!! Thank you very much!!!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: aor on October 23, 2009, 06:40:37 PM
Kaiserin Alzbeta Sissi, it is so nice to see you ARE reading the threads! Kudo's to you.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 27, 2009, 07:55:08 PM
Sissi's children don't look like their mother very much, they look mainly like their father
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 27, 2009, 08:23:10 PM
Rudolph look  a lot like Sissi (which is an usual things cause girls tend to look more like the father and boys like the mother )
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 28, 2009, 03:40:07 PM
Rudolph look  a lot like Sissi (which is an usual things cause girls tend to look more like the father and boys like the mother )
Well, looking him carefully he reminds Sissi, even in the hair
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 09, 2009, 04:05:33 PM

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/RudandValerie.jpg (http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/RudandValerie.jpg)

And a bonus...the portrait of Gisela with her husband Leopold.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/GisandLeopold.jpg (http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll205/EnaBatt/GisandLeopold.jpg)

Have you already mentioned that these paintings by Hans Canon are actually altar pieces? The painting of Rudolf and Marie Valérie is on the left, then there is a painting showing Mother Mary with her son Jesus surrounded by the Holy Elisabeth and the Holy Franz, and on the right there is the painting of Gisela and Leopold. The altar is not open to the public.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 10, 2009, 07:09:34 AM
i've never heard that, thanks for the information MarieCharlotte ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2009, 02:10:16 PM
Where is this alter piece located ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 14, 2009, 03:46:20 PM
Have you already mentioned that these paintings by Hans Canon are actually altar pieces? The painting of Rudolf and Marie Valérie is on the left, then there is a painting showing Mother Mary with her son Jesus surrounded by the Holy Elisabeth and the Holy Franz, and on the right there is the painting of Gisela and Leopold. The altar is not open to the public.

Have you ever seen the other painting that shows Sissi and Franz?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 14, 2009, 06:21:45 PM
Where is this alter piece located ?

I read that it was a home altar, but I don't know where it is located. I bet on Gödöllö.


Quote
Have you ever seen the other painting that shows Sissi and Franz?

The altar piece doesn't show Elisabeth and Franz Joseph, but their patron saints.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2009, 09:47:54 PM
Would love to go to Godollo to see it. I think it is open to the public.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 16, 2009, 01:03:38 AM
Would love to go to Godollo to see it. I think it is open to the public.

Of course, Gödöllö is open to the public, but according to Martha Schad the altar isn't. And, as I've have already told you, I am actually not sure where the altar is located - Gödöllö was just a guess.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 17, 2009, 03:11:09 PM
Quote
Have you ever seen the other painting that shows Sissi and Franz?

The altar piece doesn't show Elisabeth and Franz Joseph, but their patron saints.
I would like to see it anyway, have you ever seen it??
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 17, 2009, 05:09:03 PM
I would like to see it anyway, have you ever seen it??

Yes, it is pictured in one of my books.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 17, 2009, 05:49:54 PM
Is it in "Kaiserin Elisabeth und ihre Töchter'? I think I saw it in there.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 18, 2009, 02:22:57 PM
The book probably isnt avalaible to read it online, but, if i get that image, i ll post it or i ll send it to you ;-)

Thank you soooo much, I hope that you've a lot of luck finding it!! ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on November 19, 2009, 02:43:51 AM
Yes, it's great book. And The diary of Marie Valerie by Martha Schad is even better to read. It's a pitty, that her notes ends in 1899 in the book. Would be amazing, if any addictional continuation will be intended to publish.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 20, 2009, 05:18:03 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Kaiserin-Elisabeth-T%C3%B6chter-Martha-Schad/dp/3776625686/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258758987&sr=8-11

This is the one I have, the 2008 edition.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 21, 2009, 03:56:47 PM
Perhaps a silly question, but... whyt don't Sissi and Franz appear on these paintings?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 23, 2009, 04:42:49 PM
Maybe they don't want to.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:24:07 PM
Mmm... about that paintings... were they painted for commemorate a special event or why?
Or just a simply portrait.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:25:59 PM
The fact that all the children were in it points to a family anniversary of some sort.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:28:13 PM
Is strange that the family wasn't portrayed all of them. if it was an special or commemorative
painting
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:35:23 PM
All of the children were there ! Rudolf, Gisela and Valerie. It must be FJ who did it since Sisi did not care for the religious aspect at all.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Trianon on November 24, 2009, 02:48:57 PM
Perhaps a silly question, but... whyt don't Sissi and Franz appear on these paintings?

They are on the painting but not as they are normally. You can see the cuple in form of the saints in the middle of the paintings. Right there is St. Elizabeth with the features of Empress Elizabeth and St. Franz with the features of the Emperor. The altarpaintings was made for the silber wedding of them and you can find it in the Josephchapel in the Hofburg in Vienna. Unfortunatley, this chapel isn't open for the public. It's a very private room of the emperor-family and only reachable through a closet in an antechamber.
You can see a picture of the chapel here:
http://www.hofburg.at/show_content2.php?sid=34&s2id=39&language=en
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:50:25 PM
Wow! I've haven't heard anything about that!! I wonder if M Valerie was interested in religion too, I think
that the Archduke Rudolph wasn't, he was more like Sissi
And thank you soooo much Trianon ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 24, 2009, 02:55:25 PM
Is true!! Saint Elisabeth looks a lot like Sissi, just with not a hair as dark as real Sissi, but many of
her features are the same. Beautiful painting ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 24, 2009, 02:58:03 PM
Again. I do not think Sisi had anything to do with it. She was too much of a nomad at that stage in her life. Valerie & Gisela were more grounded and close to their father.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 25, 2009, 04:58:14 PM
Wow! I've haven't heard anything about that!! I wonder if M Valerie was interested in religion too, I think
that the Archduke Rudolph wasn't, he was more like Sissi
And thank you soooo much Trianon ;-)

Marie Valérie was a very religious person. In the church of Wallsee Marie Valérie and her family had their very own pew - which was a bit more comfortable and nicer than the other benches, of course. :-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 25, 2009, 06:46:16 PM
Thanks for the info. MarieCharlotte, I didn't have much knowledge about this area of Marie
Valerie's character ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 26, 2009, 02:05:27 AM
Thanks for the info. MarieCharlotte, I didn't have much knowledge about this area of Marie
Valerie's character ;-)

When I visited Wallsee I even took a picture of Marie Valérie's pew. If I have enough time today, I'll post it later.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 26, 2009, 01:06:59 PM
I'd like to see it, I hope that you've the enough time and avdanced thanks ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 26, 2009, 03:37:25 PM

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/mariasophia1841/010.jpg)

Marie Valérie's pew
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 26, 2009, 07:03:36 PM
^ fancy.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 27, 2009, 10:52:07 AM
Thank you sooo much MarieCharlotte!!! ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 27, 2009, 11:17:06 AM
Another question.... is it true that the Crown Prince Rudoplh felt sooo jealous of Marie Valerie
because Sissi loved her more? I read that he was and for that reason he was a little bit
rude with her and Sissi disliked this behaviuor of her son... is it true?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 27, 2009, 11:23:43 AM
Do you know more about all the content (like a summary) of her diary? Whed did she wrote it, or how
many time took to be written?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on November 28, 2009, 02:33:47 AM
Yes, that is true. You can find some references about his behaviour in Valerie's diary. They had never been close each other, because of age difference and Rudolf's jealousness. He wasn't so uncomplicated person like Gisela, who as a child also was a bit jealous to Valerie but later she found the way to her without bitterness.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 28, 2009, 02:08:56 PM
Indeed. Sisi did not think Gisela felt much, although it would be natural for sibling rivary. Valerie did have a good relationship with Gisela later on.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 28, 2009, 06:26:03 PM
Thank to you two, is a pity that they couldn't have a good relationship
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 04, 2009, 12:04:22 PM
I read in one place (of course I'm not completely sure of how trustful is the info) but
when Rudolph met Stephanie of Belgium he compared her with Sissi, of course he was
disappointed of it. I'm sure that Rudolph was really jealous of Marie Valerie, Sissi didn't
love him as his sister
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2009, 12:03:49 PM
I really doubt that Marie Valerie was close to either Stephanie or Gisela's husband.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 12:56:19 PM
I don't know if she was so close to her brother even before his wedding, I think that they weren't
very close, specially because Rudolph was jealous of little Marie Valerie and also for the noticeable
difference of age, ten years is a great difference
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:22:52 PM
Indeed. Nor did she bonded with Stephanie or little Erzi, even though in later years both women (Erzi & Valerie) had the ear of the old Emperor.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 01:27:14 PM
I think that she was a little bit closer to her sister Gisela, although Gisela was even older than little
Marie Valerie. I doubt that she had a close relationship with broter and sister in law and also with her
nieces and nephews
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 01:31:03 PM
Indeed. Although Valerie shared with her niece Erzi, her father's affection. I think once Valerie married Salvator, she became domesticated like Gisela.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 02:24:32 PM
Indeed true, let's consider that Marie Valerie was in that days the last daughter that had FJ because
the others were married, and Erszi was his favorite granddaughter...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 02:26:37 PM
Yes. FJ made special cases for their marriages. Poor Rudolf & Gisela did not have such a choice.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 02:32:18 PM
I don't think so about Marie Valerie's marriage, she got married with a no so important person (and I've heard
that she got married for love) I think that he did that for Erszi and wanted to do that also for Ella (MV's
eldest daughter)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 02:37:17 PM
Both Valerie & Erzi married for love. Sisi made sure that Valarie got to marry the man of her choice. FJ agreed even though he had wished for a more important match for his younger daughter.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 02:50:31 PM
Yes, but Erzsi's husband didn't love her, he just accepted to got married cause FJ forced him.
He would like to see MV in a more important position that the one that she had
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 28, 2009, 02:55:42 PM
That is why Valerie had a happier family life than Erzi, whose later life was more tubulent...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2009, 03:01:52 PM
Indeed true, MV could have a happy family, happy marriage but in the other side Erszi wasn't happy having
two marriages, I would like to know how would her life could be if her grandfather Leopold II would let her
to marry with the other prince that was interested on her and that looked that really loved her...?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 11:03:32 AM
Did Marie Valerie know that her husband cheated on her? And if this question is affirmative, how was
her reaction?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 11:26:57 AM
I heard it from author Matha Schad who wrote a book on Sisi's daughters. It make sense since Leopold was never in love with Gisela, and she was very much forced upon him. Whereas F. Salvator had a love match.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 11:35:45 AM
Well, but is well known that he cheated on Marie Valerie, perhaps he loved her very much at first
years and after something happened between them
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 11:38:35 AM
That aspect is always possible. However they do have so many children. Maybe MV became too domesticated for her husband's taste ? They do look like one big happy family.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 11:54:08 AM
The fact on cheating on wives (and even in cousins) was very common on the Habsburg family, so
I don't think as impossible that it happened to FJ daughters
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 12:33:13 PM
Cheating was common, but Leopold was also not very kind to his wife. That made it noticable.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 12:34:41 PM
Well, it was not strange on that days too that husbands were a little bit rude with their wives, specially
on the cases when the marrieges where without love
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 12:37:43 PM
Yet Gisela was loyal and loving to her husband. I think MV felt the same for hers too, since she picked him out rather than being force to marry a stranger.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 12:47:45 PM
MV was loyal to her husband too, even after he cheated on her. In their portraits as old together they
look happy, really I don't know, isn't good to trust in portraits
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 29, 2009, 12:53:28 PM
Are there any proofs that Luitpold was unfaithful to Gisela?. If they re, please post them in her topic cause im very curious

MArie Valerie with her cousin Marie Louise Wallersee

(http://i48.tinypic.com/dorj9v.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 29, 2009, 12:56:59 PM
Was MV so close to Countess Larisch??
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2009, 02:12:09 PM
Only very early on. After the fiasco with Rudolf, Sisi banished her from her circle.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 12:36:41 PM
Of course, she was considered by all the memebers of the family by the main responsable of Rudolph's
death and Sissi didn't forgive that to her
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 30, 2009, 12:47:34 PM
Maria Louise was nuts. She claimed in some book she was a lovechild of Maria Sofia and some guy
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 30, 2009, 12:54:49 PM
She loved to wrote exaggerated things (even if they were not true) for sell her books, but i have
never read it before :-S
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2009, 01:59:23 PM
Well...some of them were true. Like Mathilde Trani's affair with the Spanish grandee and subsequent love child was proven true.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: KarlandZita on January 01, 2010, 03:28:23 PM
Marie Valerie and Franz Salvator :

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Hasburg%20Family/mvfranzsalvator.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 05, 2010, 11:37:42 AM
Illustration aboiut the engagement

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2eex6yw.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 02:10:55 PM
Looks like an engagement postcard.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 05, 2010, 02:35:40 PM
Yes, it is. It reminds me the one of Sissi and Fj's engagement, well this is a little bit
more modest
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 05, 2010, 04:28:18 PM
A more local affair in comparison.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 11:48:56 AM
Sure, their engagement didn't have the same cathegory of the engagement of the young
Imperial Couple
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 12:49:46 PM
The marriage of a simple Archduchess wasn't a so important event to do the same with
an Imperial Wedding
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:03:41 PM
Well...At least it was an Emperor's daughter here, not some unknown Archduke.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2010, 01:17:28 PM
Yes, she was. But her marriage wasn't as important as the one of her brother Rudolph
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 01:47:50 PM
THe marriage of an heir to the throne is always important in any country.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:00:11 AM
Yes, even more important that the marriage of his brothers or sisters
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:41:24 AM
So Gisela and Marie Vlaerie's weddings had less importance, I would never imagine to see her
engagement paintings
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 11:46:38 AM
Gisela had paintings too, Marie Valerie mainly photos
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 12:45:37 PM
Engagement painting ? Have you seen one of Gisela ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 12:59:53 PM
On her thread are two paintings of Gisela, but now I'm not totally sure if they were really
painted for her engagement...? She is alone on them
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 07, 2010, 02:05:52 PM
An engagement painting is one painted for the event or one with groom & bride. I haven't seen any one of them. I don't think it exist.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 07, 2010, 02:30:12 PM
Gisela was painted as fiancée  by Georg Raab in 1872.
I couldn't find the image, but was posted on Gisela's thread here
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 07, 2010, 03:03:59 PM
Another from the famous session. M- Valerie with cousin Marie Louise

(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7125/669a9da83940896771o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 21, 2010, 11:06:55 AM
Lovely ridding habit of countess Larisch, they looked to have a good relationship
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 21, 2010, 12:01:42 PM
Portrait

(http://i46.tinypic.com/ae6zxd.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 21, 2010, 12:04:07 PM
This is beautiful. Is it in color? it looks as it is
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 21, 2010, 12:05:14 PM
the rest of the family are in color so i suppose so.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 21, 2010, 12:13:25 PM
If you see the rest of the portaits , you will see they re modern reproductions, maybe from some editorial. I ll post them later in their respective topics.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on January 22, 2010, 04:10:49 AM
Portrait

http://i46.tinypic.com/ae6zxd.jpg (http://i46.tinypic.com/ae6zxd.jpg)

I have seen this portrait of Valerie in color few years ago- in one biograhpy about Empress Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Princess Susan on January 22, 2010, 04:12:01 AM
(http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq329/lea81z/MV_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 22, 2010, 08:52:48 AM
i found this one as M Valerie. Its really her?

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2608i83.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Veronica on January 22, 2010, 12:29:00 PM
i found this one as M Valerie. Its really her?

http://i49.tinypic.com/2608i83.jpg (http://i49.tinypic.com/2608i83.jpg)

[/quote ]

That's her, and I think it was previously posted by MarieCharlotte
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 22, 2010, 04:43:35 PM
Yes, the baby is Marie Valérie. :-) I took the pic from "Das Familienalbum ..." by Praschl-Bichler.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 22, 2010, 04:53:43 PM
That book has amazing pictures! i love specially the ones of Little Gisella !
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2010, 03:05:36 PM
The Praschl-Bichler books are a good investment for anyone interested in the Austrian Imperial family.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 23, 2010, 03:14:00 PM
The Praschl-Bichler books are a good investment for anyone interested in the Austrian Imperial family.

Well, what makes her books worth an investment are the unknown pictures she often uses and the letters she usually publishes first. But how she works with the results of her research is just awful.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2010, 03:16:13 PM
Understood. Since I do not read German, I have no idea how awful it was. My friend who researched at the archievs in Vienna told me there are more photo gems there to be digged.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on January 24, 2010, 07:25:30 AM
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2nrk2lz.jpg)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ph1t.jpg)

At the wedding of Zita and Karl. You can see also Miguel Braganza, Maria Theresia, Maria Josepha and Maria Antonia
I love Marie valeries smile!
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2010, 03:16:53 PM
Yes. She looked very natural and relaxed (so was Maria Josepha).
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 24, 2010, 04:02:22 PM
Lovely Illustration showing M Valerie, Joseph Salvator, with their first two kids and Elisabeth and Franz Joseph

(http://i49.tinypic.com/98zt07.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 24, 2010, 05:12:21 PM
Lovely Illustration showing M Valerie, Joseph Salvator, with their first two kids and Elisabeth and Franz Joseph

His name was Franz Salvator. ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 24, 2010, 05:17:14 PM
Yes, sorry, me bad! xD
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 25, 2010, 12:23:55 PM
Yes, MV had a lovely smile!!! ;-D
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2010, 12:45:27 PM
Curious print. Elisabeth holding a child looking like "what am I going to do with this ?".
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 25, 2010, 01:51:52 PM
Yes, she's making an strange expression, I'd like to know why she didn't like to be photographed with
her children, neither with her so beloved Marie Valerie
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2010, 02:12:27 PM
The comparison of youth between mother & child. A problem Alix of Wales did not have since she still outshines all her daughters. Once in the country, Alix was asked to dance by perfect strangers while her daughters were wall flowers.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 28, 2010, 12:15:19 PM
Marie Valerie was well love by both parents. the lucky child of the family.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 28, 2010, 12:17:14 PM
And had less influence of her domineering grandmother
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 28, 2010, 12:49:04 PM
Sisi made sure of that.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 28, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
But anyways, it was a totally different situation comparing it with the one of her siblings, the
archduchess Sophie died also a pair of years after the birth of MV
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 28, 2010, 03:53:07 PM
She was totally powerless by that time.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on January 30, 2010, 04:36:26 AM
One of the..ugliest dresses I've ever seen on Royal persons and the most balloon-ish sleeves as well.

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305 (http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2010, 10:21:12 AM
she wantes to be tendy. "Jam sleeves" where ultra fashionable in mids 1890s...awful trend such as the 80`s fashion xDDD
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on January 30, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
I think the most beautiful fashion was in the Empire time. And the 20th of the last century.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2010, 11:49:58 AM
"Jam sleeves" where ultra fashionable in mids 1890s...

Yeah, I know,but in that one Marie Valerie didn't flatter herself definitely.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 31, 2010, 12:01:27 PM
and i think no one!. Thats gotta be the biggest "jam Sleeves" i ever seen! xD
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2010, 03:49:19 PM
Yes. I would to know who looks good in them ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 31, 2010, 03:54:12 PM
That depends about how big are the sleeves, Alicky looked very good in using those sleeves and they werent that big
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 31, 2010, 06:48:33 PM
One of the..ugliest dresses I've ever seen on Royal persons and the most balloon-ish sleeves as well.

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305 (http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305)

really, Sissi's daughters had no taste in fashion. In Countess Marie L's book, she comments, which i think is one of the few truths, that Gisela would copy the Duchess Marie Josepha in Bavaria (her aunt). Once the Duchess put on a basket on her head and said to Gisela that it was the new fashion and sometime later, Gisela wear a basket-like hat. The Duchess and Countess only laughed at Gisela. which is kinda sad.

 May sound really strange, but sometimes I even forget that Gisela and Marie Valerie are Sissi's daughters, both girls are very different from their mother in looks and personalities.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 31, 2010, 07:42:24 PM
Yes. None of her children inheirited her striking looks or taste in clothes. Sad.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Rani on February 01, 2010, 10:55:39 AM
One of the..ugliest dresses I've ever seen on Royal persons and the most balloon-ish sleeves as well.

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305 (http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305)

really, Sissi's daughters had no taste in fashion. In Countess Marie L's book, she comments, which i think is one of the few truths, that Gisela would copy the Duchess Marie Josepha in Bavaria (her aunt). Once the Duchess put on a basket on her head and said to Gisela that it was the new fashion and sometime later, Gisela wear a basket-like hat. The Duchess and Countess only laughed at Gisela. which is kinda sad.

 May sound really strange, but sometimes I even forget that Gisela and Marie Valerie are Sissi's daughters, both girls are very different from their mother in looks and personalities.

Maria Josepha was so mean??
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 01, 2010, 11:47:35 AM
I am sure Maria Josepha had her moments. She had the full trial with her husband Otto, who openly sleeps around.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 01, 2010, 11:57:08 AM
She s talking about Maria Josefa in Bavaria nee Braganza, second wife of Karl Theodor, not Archduchess MAria josepha, Wife of Archduke Otto.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 01, 2010, 12:44:24 PM
She s talking about Maria Josefa in Bavaria nee Braganza, second wife of Karl Theodor, not Archduchess MAria josepha, Wife of Archduke Otto.

We should refer to her as Marie José. ;-)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 01, 2010, 12:51:37 PM
Yes to not confuse them. I looked for her in google  and i also found her as Duchess Maria Josepha in Bavaria cause in the beggining i was also a bit confused.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: MarieCharlotte on February 01, 2010, 04:50:42 PM
Yes to not confuse them. I looked for her in google  and i also found her as Duchess Maria Josepha in Bavaria cause in the beggining i was also a bit confused.

Marie José used the German version of her name, Maria Josepha, whenever she signed official documents. Family members always called her Marie José - so do I, because I simply prefer this version. ;-)

It's quite interesting that FJ refered to Emperor Karl's mother as Marie Josepha.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 02, 2010, 07:54:28 AM
One of the..ugliest dresses I've ever seen on Royal persons and the most balloon-ish sleeves as well.

http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305 (http://www.bildarchivaustria.at/Pages/ImageDetail.aspx?p_iBildID=12427305)
I couldn't see it :-(
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 02, 2010, 10:27:08 AM
For those who cant see it...

From the ONB

(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8561/b12427305t12427310.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2010, 06:55:19 PM
Exergerated look. At least Alexandra of Wales or Ella of Russia would not be caught dead in that.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 02, 2010, 07:41:57 PM
Mids 1890s fashion. Thanks god that era started good and finished good talking about fashion
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 03, 2010, 10:44:08 PM
Exergerated look. At least Alexandra of Wales or Ella of Russia would not be caught dead in that.

I don't know about Ella--there are some pictures of her in some seriously large sleeves. Can say I've ever seen Alexandra in them though. She kept it pretty sleek.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2010, 10:24:14 AM
Well...not the style exihibited by Valarie in that photo...
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 04, 2010, 10:30:58 AM
Pretty close.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2010, 10:34:10 AM
Do you have proof in photo ?
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 04, 2010, 10:52:27 AM
I don't have time to do your research but look at the Ella threads. Here's one not as big but still showing Ella wore the big sleeves of the day

http://www.picatom.com/u/ella1st-1.html

The problem is with definitive statements--that she would never be caught dead in such a fashion. Maybe not the extreme but to say that Ella never was a fashion victim isn't correct.

Anyway, back to Marie Valerie. This can be continued on one of Ella's threads.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2010, 11:59:04 AM
The point I am saying is that "not that extreme". The photo of Ella looked ok to me.
Title: Re: Archduchess Marie Valérie of Austria(-Tuscany)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 04, 2010, 03:06:29 PM
I said the photo was illustrative of big sleeves not the extreme ones. You gave the impression Ella wouldn't even wear anything close and then challenged me for proof. I know people have a beef with you and your sourcing but stop taking it out on me--this is the 2nd or 3rd thread. If you make all or nothing statements people are going to ask you for proof. This has gone on for years now.

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