Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Yussupovs => Topic started by: Annie on July 16, 2004, 02:10:45 PM

Title: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2004, 02:10:45 PM
There is so much that can be said on this subject. I'd like to hear what all of you think and have to say. I'll post mine later when I can find the things I want to quote. Very interesting topic with so many mysteries and implications! One of the greatest episodes of the stories of the times.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Janet_W. on July 16, 2004, 03:12:14 PM
A excellent place to begin is to read Greg King's book about the subject!
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2004, 03:16:04 PM
I have read it, it's great! I also read Lost Splendor, Rasputin File, Maria Rasputin's book,  and more...

This is one of my favorite topics!
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: JD on July 20, 2004, 02:18:52 PM
Is there are widely accepted theory on this? I've only read Lost Splendor and it makes no sense - Felix killed him for patriotic reasons...yeah right.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2004, 04:56:02 PM
Hello

Well I have read that Felix saw Rasputin as a threat to the concept of an Autocratic state...that he was somehow humiliating the Royal Family ...some people thought that he wanted to sleep with Rasputin and that he was humiliated...Maybe he just got compleately smashed one day and did it for a lark... or  maybe someone dared him  ... its as good a guess as any...
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: kensue on July 20, 2004, 05:45:40 PM
I think Felix had this planned out some days (or maybe a week or two in advance.) Remember the correspondence he had with Irina when she was at Livadia?  I'm going to paraphrase this because I don't have the letter in front of me, but she said something like "you're acting crazy, don't be foolish".  She thought he was up to something. I don't discount this sexual idea that there was something going on or about to go on between Felix and Rasputin, but I think Felix really thought if he could eliminate Rasputin, he would break the hold that Rasputin had on N & A, maybe Alix could be shipped off to a convent and Nicky (with help from the uncles) could try and bring the country back under control.
kensue
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: james_h on July 23, 2004, 04:45:40 AM

I have read that Princess Zenaide Yussupova hired an assasin to murder Rasputin and told the man he could rely on "unlimited funds" to get the job done. Source "The rasputin file"

I have a theory that Felix jnr was firmly under his mothers thumb and murdered Rasputin because he knew it would please her, according to his memoirs he seemed very close to his mother describing her rooms in the Moika palace as "the center of the house" She was also Rasputins most powerful/dangerous enemy (rasputin knew this). What do you think....maybe?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2004, 08:39:06 AM
Wow, I never knew Zenaida had planned to hire an assasin. I knew she and Ella and Anya Rodzianko (wife of Duma pres.) were talking about ways to get rid of him, possibly as early as 1913. No question this had to have had some affect on Felix's decision to get rid of him, along with his friends and the political people like Puriskevitch. Some reports say the idea originated with Dmitri, even some rumor he had been engaged to Olga and Rasputin forbid the match to Alexandra, which angered him. Allegedly Olga's diary the day after the murders said something like, 'if Father Gregory is indeed killed, I suspect it was Dmitri'. I think a lot of things were involved, but the one I don't believe is that they got drunk and killed him for 'a lark', which is basically what the movie Nicholas and Alexandra leads you to believe, giving no background and not even including the character of Purishkevitch.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: rachel5a on September 05, 2004, 02:13:30 AM
 You are right about this case (Felix and Rasputin) it's one of the most inspiring and actually never cleared up episods of Russian history. But with any concorns which are comming with thoughts about the murder I would like to concentrate more on moral and psychological side of this action - of course it's about the person of Felix Jusupov.As I wrote already, when I was reading the memories of Felix or different publications where I was albe to find description of this evening on Mojka, the hate or disapproval of Knight to this  "monster", in my memory always was showing up the picture of Roskolnikov or Karamazov, heros from Dostoyevsky's works. This study of murder made by one of the biggest Russian (!):) writers in some sense can bring climat and enviroment which surrounded Felix right in this moment, just before the time of murder.
The brave theory of Roskolnikov, which we know came up his wrong one in some point is bringing the truth about the theory and the action of Jusupov, about the murder which was done on the Monster , on "holly Devil".
"Is that truth that every man has the right to ask steering at other people: which of them is allow to live and which one isn't?"- write Dostoyevsky.
Rasputin, he wasn't the man for him, he was the monster which one should disappear. Could Jusupov think the same way? He was very tender, delicate and sensitive about man's harm  ( be couse that kind of picture we can see reading his "Lost splendor").
We can ask the question, did he never thought about his action as a murder in the moral meaning? Arguably that has to leave some mark in his mentality, it was the murder!
But I don't want to grade him or analyze his mental health, in any way it is so hard. I'd like to just talk about the problem of the murder and all of that what is coming after, I'd like to analyze that according to Dostoyevky works and his theory...

Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on September 05, 2004, 11:02:01 AM
I agree, Felix was no killer. Here are some things written about him soon after the murder by people who knew him well.

Letter from Ella to Nicholas and Alexandra (partial):

Arrived here to the news that Felix killed him, my little Felix I knew as a child, who all his life feared to kill, who did not wish to become military as to never have the occasion to shed blood- and I image what he must have gone through to do this, and how moved by patriotism he decided to save his sovereign and country from what we were all suffering. I telegraphed Dmitri not knowing where the boy was-but got no answer, since then it is in kind of silence....crime remains crime, but this one being of a special kind, can be counted as a duel and it is considered a patriotic act and for these deeds the law I think needs altering...

She goes on to basically tell how happy people were that Rasputin was gone, and they were 'kissing in the streets like Easter week'

Her last line is chilling considering what happened:

During the time of black clouds, may in the new year of 1917 the clouds be lifted, the sun shine in all beloved Russia,  victories in the interior and exterior bring a glorious peace to you, our beloved Sovereign and all, all your subjects of which I am one- God bless you, God help you.

Your faithful sister,
Ella



I have always heard that after Alexandra dismissed her for her criticism of Rasputin, saying "I hope to never see you again", the sisters never did meet again. I don't know if this was a letter to N or both, or if they ever saw her again.

But back to the point of the letter, she who had known Felix all his life, (they were together a lot, and she was good friends with Zenaida) and was involved with him in charity work, did not see him as a bad or dangerous person.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on September 05, 2004, 11:19:58 AM
From the diary of Maurice Paleologue, French ambassador to Russia at the time:

Judging by the little I know, it is the presence of Purishkevitch which gives the drama its real meaning and high political interest. The Grand Duke Dimitri is a young man about town of twenty-five, active, a fervent patriot and capable of courage in the hour of battle, but flighty and impulsive; it seems to me he plunged blindly into this adventure. Prince Felix Yussupov is twenty-nine and gifted with quick wits and æsthetic tastes; but his dilettantism is rather too prone to perverse imaginings and literary representations of vice and death, so I am afraid that he has regarded the murder of Rasputin mainly as a scenario worthy of his favourite author, Oscar Wilde. In any case his instincts., countenance and manner make. him much closer akin to the hero of Dorian Grey than to Brutus or Lorenzaccio.

Sounds like he didn't see Felix as a vicious killer either, and that perhaps he even looked at it as a story in a book ('prone to literary imaginings') rather than a brutal act.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Martyn on September 06, 2004, 08:54:07 AM
That's a very interesting theory Annie.  I think that there must have been a broad streak of romanticism running through Felix's character but do you think that he really did not understand the value of his actions and failed to grasp that he was taking a life?
I don't think that Ella ever really knew Felix any more than we do; I have always thought that he let her see just as much as he wanted her to see which resulted in her having an idealised view of his true character.
I like Felix and all his exploits but the murder always gives me a problem.  Although it was morally inexcusable, I would love to believe that his motives wer altruistic and patriotic but I rather suspect that there was more to it than that.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: rachel5a on September 16, 2004, 12:16:13 PM
So Paleologue says about Oscar Wilde! Ye no doubt he was a fovourite writer( but not only- I think he was a Idol for Felix) just like he homosexual, orginal, King of Dandys!!!! So what about murder, what about Felix's crime??? If he change morality and ethics for esthetics and beauty, just like Wilde and his characters (Dorian Gray- Felix copy !!!) his crime it's only part of his life scenario, Wilde's fan couldnt have a normal and colorless life, because more tragic of to be famous is only not to be famous even his biografy Lost Splendor is full of episods identical with Dorian Gray life ( poor rabbit, and Felix's mercy during hunt) Crime should be ideal, just like play like art( probably Felix heard about de Quincey essay " Crime as kind of art") ARTE PRO ARTE, because life isnt art- art is life!!!And beauty, in Felix's ideal life where everything was perfect and pretty Rasputin didnt have right to exist, must be eliminated.  So it's only esthetic problem??and what about morality, even if dandy (maybe Nietzsche follower!!) is devoid of it   Ye, Felix as a nihilist ...No a man who wanted make art with his own life, and what could bring him more fame- only murder(?) Ideal crime- without blood and violence, but unfortunately what we see- "superego" of Yusupov win himself!!! what a pity dr Freud have never analyzed him.....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Karentje on September 25, 2004, 09:47:40 AM
I recently read 'rasputin, the last word' by Radzinsky and he seems to think that Felix didn't murder Rasputin, but Dmitri.
I find Radzinsky's theory more convincing than the story that Felix and Purishkevich 'confessed' to at the time. I do not believe that Felix had what it takes to coldly kill a man, though I do believe he tried. Felix, however, either from nerves or from simply being a bad shot, mucked up.
And Dmitri Pavlovich had to clean up the mess. He had motive (more than one even) and he had the skills (he was a military man and excellent marksman).
Even those who knew Dmitri well, like Alix and his former financée Olga, upon hearing of Rasputin's death, immediately assumed Dmitri had done it.
From Olga's diary - written before there had been official inquiries: "18 December...we have learned that Father Grigory has definitely been killed, it must have been by Dmitri."
Greetings

Karentje
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: borgia on November 05, 2004, 05:32:04 PM
I rather think that Felix was a fella with  too much money   ,too much free times,not alot of common sense,very little focus,no  goals. A type of foolish innocent who gets into one misadventure after another.Only his misadventures were big and serious.In a way, I think  that Alexandras friend,Anna, Vyrubova,was, alittle, like Felix.Both being  in,and causing all sorts of  problems  and mischief, for other people, on a grand scale, but coming out  themselves, fairly unscathed .  
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on November 05, 2004, 05:52:44 PM
Quote
I rather think that Felix was a fella with  too much money   ,too much free times,not alot of common sense,very little focus,no  goals. A type of foolish innocent who gets into one misadventure after another.Only his misadventures were big and serious.In a way, I think  that Alexandras friend,Anna, Vyrubova,was, alittle, like Felix.Both being  in,and causing all sorts of  problems  and mischief, for other people, on a grand scale, but coming out  themselves, fairly unscathed .  


Interesting too is the fact that both Felix and Anna V. had known each other since childhood and had never cared for each other, yet both ended up playing such big roles in the drama!

Karentje, I think that's interesting too! If it was Dmitri they tried to cover it because of the plan to install him as Tsar. We may never know.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on November 06, 2004, 01:58:21 AM
Annie and all,

I know that Radzinsky has a theory about Dimitry, I have to say that is all it is, there is just is no evidence to support it.  As in much of this tale, for that is what most of story of Rasputin is, there is lots of speculation and senstational story telling.  there is no evidence that there were women at the Palace on the night of the murder.  Radzinsky has not properly examined and anlysed the evidence from the GARF files to which he had access.  Analysis of witnessesaccounts of when shote were fired is essential - Radzinsky has taken things at face value.  Radzinsky I believe went out to prove Dimitry was involved but didn't find any evidence and has chosen to ignore evidence that was available to him.  The British theory elsewhere in this section does have evidence to support it and I am finding out more each day.  I approached this with an open mind but as the facts were revealed the scenario developed as being not only credible but supported by evidence.

Paleoloue who is a useful source first of all states there were women present and then makes an absolute retraction.

The death was far, far more clinical than most people think.  Phil T and I share the view, which is supportable from the evidence of the post mortem and Prof Zharov's re consideration that R was tortured before death.

Although the Time Watch programme shows the final shot to the head being delivered in the court yard, my view is increasingly that after getting him drunk, the conspirators together with Rayner and Alley went down to the basement, attacked Rasputin, tortured him and then eventually shot him - all the shots were fired from no more than 20cm.  Kossorotov indicates that the body shots were fired in quick succession.

I can find no reason to support the Radzinsky idea that they concealed Dimitry's murder of R because it would have looked bad and if he had taken a peasant's life he could not become Tsar.  He was so involved according to both Y and P that firing a gun would have made little differene.  As in this country he would in Russia have been guilty of murder or at least conspiracy to murder.

Equally there is no clear evidence that Dimitry would have been prepared to become Tsar, in fact the opposite is true.

As I have said you will have to await Andrew Cook's book to understand more about the British involvement.  You can look at www.whokilledrasputin.com to give you an idea of what is coming... the story continues after R's death.

I will post Rayner's obit in the British Killed rasputin bit, when I can manage to do it - it is pretty complicated.

Have a good weekend

Richard
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: BobAtchison on November 07, 2004, 03:27:17 PM
Do professional Britsh agents torture their victims before killing them?  That seems odd to me.  You would think they would have quickly dispatched their victim (acheiving their objective) quickly and then get as far away from the scene of the crime as possible.

Bob
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on November 07, 2004, 05:54:32 PM
The 'torturing' was supposed to have been a beating and kicking by a large number of partygoers (many of whom were not officially there but were) I thought Greg's book mentioned police reports that 2 women were seen being ousted from the palace around sunup? Vera Korelli admitted being there (much later in her life) and Anna V. said the other woman was Marianne somebody, the daughter of Dmitri's stepmother by her first husband?

Anyway I still hope to see the obit, do you have it but it's not on the computer, or what? Do you have to type it up yourself? Thanks for the website addy, I'll go there!
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on November 09, 2004, 04:11:32 AM
I've asked Rob to post the bit, as despite my best efforts I can't cut and paste it into here.

Bob, I think it may have been R's alleged connections with the Germans that made him a subject for torture.  the injuries that Y is alleged to have caused seem rather bizarre if it was just done on impulse - but this is a bizarre case.

The damage to the genitalia I think is particularly important and on the basis of forensic psychology seems to have been more likely to have occurred before death than after it.  Where might we look at the evidence we already have to show events were not as portrayed.  Y's alelged assault on R would have left him covered in a substantial amount of blood - Zharov confirms this in his re-examination of the body.  P says Y was covered in blood - but Vlasuk, the alert police officer who sees Y and P in Y's study does not notice any blood, nor report anything unusual about Y.

These were very different times and had things 'gone according to plan' there would have been no police involvement and no body to be found.  It didn't go to plan - Y was recognised when he picked up R - Shots were heard and the police alerted - the body because it was thrown in too close to the Petrovsky Island from the bridge was towed into the river bank.  There was blood on the bridge and of course a shoe and over boot on the snow.

My theory is that the British SIS wanted Y, P and D involved to make this look a Russian killing but there was much, much, more.  I think torture would have been an acceptable thing to do - 'let's find out what R knows about the Germans etc.'  We have examples going back to Alexander the Great and beyond of torturing plotters etc.

I think that Lazovert's much ignored version of events shows more realistically that they were all in the basement at the time of the shooting but doesn't tell all:

"And then after a time he rose and walked to the door.  We were afraid that our work had been in vain.  Suddenly, as he turned at the door, someone shot at him quickly.  With a frightful scream Rasputin whirled and fell, face down, on the floor.  The others came bounding over to him and stood over his prostrate, writhing body.  It was suggested that two more shots be fired to make certain of his death, but one of those present said, “No, no; it is his last agony now.”

As you will recall P at one stages mentions 'shots' in the basement and Paleologue also mentions this.

Whilst I will cover all the forensic stuff in my paper I am genuinely constrained from saying too much as Andrew Cook has the book rights for the British involvement and you can see there will be more in his book than just R's death - see WWW.WhoKilledRasputin.com.  I am told the book will be published in August, his latest book has just 2 November been published.  Andrew, Lion TV and the BBC have agreed I can publish my forensic re-examination and as soon as I get approval from prof Zharov to include the full text of his re-examination I will send it to you Bob to put the whole article on the Alexander Palace web-site.

There is a good deal of information coming out of the woodwork on this and a number of people have contacted me directly - some of Iwill be able to use and some that would be better dealt with by Andrew.

I suppose another issue of interest is that Vlasuk says he saw Y and B walking across the courtyard as he was talking to the yard keeper of 92.  Y who insists that the body was in the courtyard says he positioned himself so V would have had his back to the body.  Not possible V came through the main gates and the yard keeper's hut is next to the gate - right next to where the body was meant to be lying?  Interesting stuff.

I really am hoping to get the BBC involved in the death of the IF and am meeting the producer on 1 December to discuss the series they want me to do.  I have told them to log into this site to see the wealth of information and level of debate.

Richard
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 11, 2005, 06:04:15 PM
Any ideas? It seems as though he did the least in the murder of Rasputin. In Lost Splendor, he said he shot Rasputin, then started to vomit and had to go lay down while the others finished him off. I know Felix wasn't always known for telling the truth, but it seems to me that he was proud of it. Why would he say he did less than he really did when he was proud of it? Or am I misinformed?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on November 13, 2005, 02:16:10 PM
He got it all because he wanted it all. There is much more to the story than he tells us, and many others were involved. But they didn't want it known, he did.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 14, 2005, 11:02:37 AM
He was the most infamous, before and after, and publicized his role the most. He wanted to be known as the murder of Rasputin, so he got it, history awarded that accolade to him. This as just as Yakov Yurovsky wanted tobe known s the murderer of the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: AkshayChavan on November 14, 2005, 06:07:27 PM
Strang thing is that his role in the murder has immortalised him in history. Whenever we study russian history, his name will always come up. I believe this is what he wanted. No one remembers Dimitri or pushkevich.
           Look at alexanderpalace.org. Had felix not been rasputin's murderer, i dont think we would have had separate section on yussupov family. Yussupovs too would have dissappeared in history. So in conclusion , if felix had not got credit for the murder, this discussions section on yussupovs too would not have existed!!!
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 15, 2005, 10:27:15 AM
Quote
Strang thing is that his role in the murder has immortalised him in history. Whenever we study russian history, his name will always come up. I believe this is what he wanted. No one remembers Dimitri or pushkevich.
            Look at alexanderpalace.org. Had felix not been rasputin's murderer, i dont think we would have had separate section on yussupov family. Yussupovs too would have dissappeared in history. So in conclusion , if felix had not got credit for the murder, this discussions section on yussupovs too would not have existed!!!


That is the best thing I have ever heard on this subject. Even hs marriage to the Tsar's niece woudn't have gotten him this thread, or discussion section. Good observations. I think he would be known in a much more academic part of Russian history if at all if he hadn't murdered Rasputin.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on November 15, 2005, 02:21:21 PM
I wouldn't be so sure.......Considering Felix personality, I think he wouldn't have gone "Unnoticed" in history..  I think he was far more than "Rasputin's murderer"...he just loved being under the spotlight....and never really cared for what other people thought about him.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2005, 10:19:49 AM
He woudn't be forgotten, and in fact, would most likely be avidly remembered by some, who are intrigued by characters in history. He was defintely one of those, for sure. I doubt he would be as important as a historical figure if he hadn't murdered Rasputin though. The murder of Rasputin provides a context by which we can learn more about him.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on November 17, 2005, 02:19:43 PM
I agree with you regarding the historical weight the murder of Rasputin gave him, but  I am sure he did not do it thinking of the historical consecuences of his actions nor to be remember  and secure his place in Universal history.
I believe he had his own motivations that were more personal than for the good of Russia. Maybe he saw Rasputin as the inderect reponsible for the humiliation his mother had suffered when the Empress diimised her telling her "she hopped she never saw her again" when Zenaida   went to an audience with Alix to talk to the Empress about Rasputin. I am sure he knew the general feeling the people had  toward Rasputin and maybe he saw he could cover his personal vendetta with the argument that he killed Rasputing for the best of Russia... Who knows?? That is just what I think his motivations could have been...
The rason why he was given all the credit was that  all the people involved in rasputin's murder had made a pact no to  talk about the murder and obviously Felix did not follow the pact. The other people involved, especially Dimitry did not care for what Felix said. He never talked about that episode in his life, not kept contact with Felix in Exile...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 18, 2005, 10:34:42 AM
Yes, I agree with you that I am sure that Prince Felix was not thinking of his place in the history books when he murdered Rasputin; nor did he do it entirely for political reasons, like the fact that Rasputin's association with the dynasty continued, and ruined the reputation that the Romanov dynasty had. I doubt he was overly concerned with fate of the country, though he may have been concerned with the fate of the dynasty, a bit for himself. But his motivations were complex, and had a element of the personal at some point. I doubt he wanted dry, history book type rememberance anyway. He was not that way.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on November 18, 2005, 11:06:06 AM
I think Felix knew exactly what he was doing.He came from a long line of grandee's who had had "their finger's in the pie" so to speak with the lives of every Tsar.How else had they risen to such fame and fortune.He thought this miserable act was a great patriotic deed which was as worthy as those of his illustrious forebears.Felix was somebody who his entire life wanted, needed to be the centre of attention,to be talked about, the "assasination" of the notorious Rasputin would I'm sure he thought turn him into a national hero,more famous than  any of his famed forebears. The treatment of his mother by the Empress was only the catalyst,indeed Zenaida the proud,beautiful heiress herself had only been "carrying on the Family tradition" of meddling .....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 18, 2005, 11:50:40 AM
He certainly did like to be the center of attention, I agree. I think he knew he would become notorious for this deed, when he did it, no doubt. I'm not sure he thought that this was his chance to echo in history in general, but I think he knew history would remember him as the murderer of Rasputin, and I think he welcomed that. He didn't do it to be famous in general; I think he, with his flamboyant personality, thought he would be remembered anyway.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Sage on November 23, 2005, 08:10:14 AM
I do agree with the rest of you, Felix wanted the lions share credit so he got it. Pushkevich also wrote about the murder afterward, but I guess he didn't have that same charisma to be truly memorable.

It was probably part of Felix's fundemental character, here was an oppotunity to be the talk of the town and he ran with that. The guy was after all no stranger to scandal and attention, probably even thrived on it.

Perhaps he didn't realise the full implications at the time, but certainly as everything evolved made the best of it by writing his memoirs, that libel suit over 'Rasputin & the Empress' etc.  

As for his actual motivation for the crime, hmm haven't quite figured that out. Could be all manner of things, perhaps a combination of everything already mentioned. Yes he may have wanted notority, but never struck me as having the nature to actually kill. He wouldn't even go hunting. So there must have been something very powerful to have prompted such drastic action. Even if he was just to be associated with it.  

I am just starting to write a documentary novel about Rasputin's murder, probably focusing on Felix. So am getting all my theories and research together ready for that.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: james_h on November 23, 2005, 12:12:26 PM


I suspect Dimitri pulled the trigger that ended Rasputin.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on November 29, 2005, 10:33:51 AM
The reasons that Felix murdered Rasputin are complex yes, and no one could sort them out completely. You could have a list of ten items, and you could most likely continue it, in my opinion. He was someone who enjoyed a show, enjoyed being the center of attention. I think his natural expectation in life was that he would be the center of attention.This event guarenteed him attention-how could he pass that up? I do think he was the primary murderer of Rasputin, but he wasn't the only one, as many people automatically assume. Perhaps as the primary murderer he deserves credit, but not all the credit. He wasn't the murdering type, but then murders are often complex things, done for a variety of reasons. Rasputin's was no different. Yakov Yurovsky and crew were much more deep in blood lust than Prince Felix Yusupov ever was, for sure. I think Felix liked to take all the credit, in every situation of his life. ::)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: AkshayChavan on December 02, 2005, 07:00:10 PM
On topic of murder of Rasputin , I came across 2 books by Greg king. First is titled " The Murder of Rasputin: The Truth About Prince Felix Youssoupov and the Mad Monk Who Helped Bring Down the Romanovs " published in 1995 and second is "The man who killed rasputin"published in 2001. If someone could please tell me if they are same books with different names or different books?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on December 13, 2005, 10:24:42 AM
Actually, that has always confused me too. I would go to Amazon, type in both, and then see if there are different results, and it is different books. If you can't find one of those titles on there but can find another then most likely they are one and the same.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on December 13, 2005, 12:14:35 PM
Quote

I suspect Dimitri pulled the trigger that ended Rasputin.

At one time it was said that  Felix's servant Tesphe/Tesfay was the person who actually administered the "coup de grace".Whatever the servant's role he held a special position in the staff pecking order....He was among the 5 servants( there was also a English governess) who accompanied the Youssoupoff family aboard the HMS Marlborough.In exile Felix liked to hold court at various gatherings,retelling the story of the murder.....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on December 28, 2005, 10:12:29 AM
Hi

This strand should probably be in the Rasputin strand but I hope i don't upset too mnay of you by saying you are way off the mark in pursuing the role of Felix and dimitry in the plot - they were not the murderers.  I am not very concerned with who actually killed him, but I am convinced it was the British and i believe this is now gathering considerable academic weight.

Rasputin's murder is never out of my thoughts for long and I think I and others have substantially proved that much of Yussupov's and Purishkevich's version of events were total fabrications.

I think yuo have to ask yourself what would have happened had Purishkevich lived, he was the first to right his version of events, maybe he would have been more famous than Felix?

Felix needed to make money after the revolution and Lost Splendour etc were ways of creating wealth. Without being sexist Felix was a drama queen.  I hope one day brian will be able to complete the floor plan of the Palace to show how far felix had to run from the basement to the main dorrs pf the Palace when he allegedly ran after the escaping Rasputin.

There was nothing heroic in Rasputin's murder, it was cold and calculated.  Felix did have a role, they used his rooms within his father's Palace.

Felix was a showman, a rather insignificant fellow, who without wealth had little going for him.

Dimitry didn't pull the trigger, he might not have been there when R died, or was he, who knows.  the timings make a mockery of what P and Y said about what happened.

I am just having a slide made up of the angle of the first shot (supposed first shot) that passed through the stomach and liver, it was delivered from amost awkward angle and probably means that R was seated at the time he was shot.  A second shot from the back and then a coup de grace.  No reckless firing because of the angle of firing and the danger that the murderers may well have shot each other.

Probably assaulted or tortured have what you will prior to death, with a convenient little story to explain away the inuries at a later time (Y's alleged frenzied attack after R was dead).

Had we just a shred more evidence from the scene (the basement) if it was the scene maybe we could have more clarity.

But why for 90 odd years did we miss the fact that the shot to the head was from point blank range to the forehead and not from 20 paces behind as P suggests?

I had seen the pictures of the injuries before but until the BBC asked me to look at the post mortem pictures in detail did i notice, what had been staring me in the face for years before that he had been shot at point blank range.

regards and season's greetings

Richard
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on December 29, 2005, 01:22:03 PM
Hi to everybody ;D,

I recently bought a new version (this one is a french version entitled Memoirs which taled his story before and during his exil) of the book Lost Splendor, but I can't still find exactly the relation between Félix and Raspoutine  :'(. I know that Félix killed him as well for personnal (cause there was a kind of homoerotic relation between the two but mostly from Félix) reasons as political. It is said that Félix killed him 'cause he was in love with Raspoutine and this one rejected his propositions 'cause his was most interested in Irina.
So here is my question:
Was there a real physical relation between the two?And maybe something more important than just simply this physical relation? Because I don't know if you have ever read this french version, 'cause Félix tales and lets some strange and precious clues ???

Thanks and I'm so happy to be a new member of this Forum abt the Prince Youssoupoff of whom I am totally in love with ;)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 04:28:01 PM
Quote
Hi to everybody ;D,

I recently bought a new version (this one is a french version entitled Memoirs which taled his story before and during his exil) of the book Lost Splendor, but I can't still find exactly the relation between Félix and Raspoutine  :'(. I know that Félix killed him as well for personnal (cause there was a kind of homoerotic relation between the two but mostly from Félix) reasons as political. It is said that Félix killed him 'cause he was in love with Raspoutine and this one rejected his propositions 'cause his was most interested in Irina.
So here is my question:
Was there a real physical relation between the two?And maybe something more important than just simply this physical relation? Because I don't know if you have ever read this french version, 'cause Félix tales and lets some strange and precious clues ???

Thanks and I'm so happy to be a new member of this Forum abt the Prince Youssoupoff of who I am totally in love with ;)


I don't believe there was anything physical, because while Felix was most likely bi/gay, Rasputin only went with women. This is not to say that Felix wasn't interested in Rasputin, and that could have had something to do it, I can't say. I personally can't imagine Felix being sexually interested in Rasputin, since he was usually dirty and scruffy, and Felix liked beauty, elegance, and clean, perfume smelling people.

Felix himself admits first going to see Rasputin with Munya Golovina, a friend and supporter. While he refers to her in his book only as Mlle. G, this is who she was. In other books about Rasputin, like Greg King's and Radzinsky's, we learn that after the death of Felix's brother in a duel, Munya, who had been in love with him, became distraught and wanted to lie on his grave and die there. She was determined to see him again. Believing Rasputin could conjure the dead, she went to see him. Assuming from these reports, this is why Felix went with her, to contact his dead brother.

He became fascinated with the starets, and his gypsy music lifestyle. He admits to having been hypnotized by Rasputin until his body was redendered helpless. The reasons he wanted to be hypnotized are up for debate, there are several theories, according to several books.

It is also important to know that Rasputin was hated deeply by Felix's mother, Zenaida. There are letters dating back as early as 1913 in which she, Ella (Alexandra's sister, Dmitri's aunt who raised him), and Anna Rodzianko, Zenaida's cousin and wife of Duma President Michael Rodzianko,( who had once proclaimed he'd have killed Rasputin himself if he weren't so 'old and fat!') which discuss their dislike of Rasputin and how they consider him a threat to Russia. These letters are written with code for each character, Rasputin being 'the book.' Some of these can be read right here on this site. Zenaida and Ella were eventually disowned by Alexandra for trying to tell her to get rid of Rasputin, and Felix's father. old Felix, lost his job as "Lord Mayor" of Moscow when he expressed his opinion that Rasputin be run out of town and away from Alexandra. So you see, he, as well as Dmitri, had a person stake in Rasputin's demise. Their families had been shamed becauses of him. Not only were their relatives against him, they also saw themselves as heroes to their country by getting rid of him since most nobility considered him to be ruining Russia and bringing down the dynasty.

Another note on Dmitri: there were those at the time who wanted to oust the Tsar and install Dmitri as Tsar. This is perhaps why Felix and Purishkevitch deny Dmitri had an important role in the murder, while some historians feel he did, and may even have delivered the final fatal gunshot.

Finally, welcome to another Felix lover! I hope to see you around more Felix threads! :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on December 30, 2005, 03:10:12 AM
Yes :), you've said that you could not imagine that Félix could once ever been in love with Rasputine, but i read somewhere that a long time after Raspoutin's death one of his daughter related that once she saw Félix completely naked in Raspoutine's office ???. Don't know if it this true but it seems very strange 'cause when Félix went to R's house to be cured, be naked or not was not former part of his restablisment :-/.
But now you right 'cause this does not mean that Félix could be in love with R.
Also something which seems to be clear in the book Memoirs, is the relationship between Félix and Dimitri. I think they were more than just good friends......'cause Dimitri was as well in love with Irina as he was with  Félix too........ 'cause when Félix says to Dimitri that he wants to marry her..........we can see D's disappointement not only toward Irina but also toward Félix (like most of Félix good friends).............. . And there are lots of little detail like that.

Well i don't what you think abt it but can you give me your point of view :)  
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: crotalo on December 30, 2005, 03:15:19 AM
See the film "Belle de jour"
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on December 30, 2005, 04:17:37 AM
It is the movie with Catherine Deneuve???
Why ???should I wacht it? because, is there a relation ??? with the Yusupovs' story?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on December 30, 2005, 05:28:04 AM
Felix got the most "publicity" out of the murder BECAUSE HE MADE SURE HE DID. As Truman Capote once said "Everybody has their 15 minutes of fame " well Felix made this his  & stretched it out and out and out......From the minute he got back to Petrograd after the revolution he was entertaining guests in the basement rooms with gypsies singing.....( see, Wilfred Blunt's :Lady Muriel, Methuen 1962).In exile he spent 4 decades telling " his version" of the murder.There are several accounts of this. All in all. Felix made a meal of it...What Irina thought is unrecorded, but there are pointers that she was at times in a state of stifled hysteria.....She must have loved him very much.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 01, 2006, 09:31:15 AM
Sorry but i can't still see the relation between the movie "Belle de Jour" and Félix and Rasputine relation ???.
And Annie, you've said that Félix was attracted by the beauty, elegance,well all the posh things but even if Raspoutine was a dirty and scruffy man, ha had something which completely and definitively attracted Félix. Of course in his books, Félix want us to remember him as the man who killed Raspoutine and also as the man who was the first who hated him in Russia. But everybody know that Félix was a great liar. Always deforming the truth to his profit. And of course he would never put and admit  that somewhere Raspoutine had a very important place in his life and heart. But I repeat that this was not reciprocal. And that is why, maybe this personal reason joined later with the political reason  led him to kill the one who rejected Félix because he preferred power and women to him.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on January 03, 2006, 02:41:30 PM
I personaly do not think Felix was involved in Rasputin's murder out of a  sentimental rejection. I think  that  was the least Felix care  about and even less comming from rasputin. I would go  for the  rejection and humiliation his mother suffered from Alexandra when Zenaida tried to talk the Tsarina to get rasputin away from the RF. If I were someone like Felix I could not  take very well that such an important  character as my Mother, one of the most Aristocratic   members of Russian  Society suffer such a humiliation  because of a "low" filthy social climber as Rasputin..
That is what I think, but again same as you, I have no evidence to probe it... so It is my own  speculation of Felix"s motivations.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 04, 2006, 01:48:18 AM
Quote
I personaly do not think Felix was involved in Rasputin's murder out of a  sentimental rejection. I think  that  was the least Felix care  about and even less comming from rasputin. I would go  for the  rejection and humiliation his mother suffered from Alexandra when Zenaida tried to talk the Tsarina to get rasputin away from the RF. If I were someone like Felix I could not  take very well that such an important  character as my Mother, one of the most Aristocratic   embers of Russian  Society suffer such a humiliation  because of a "low" filthy social climber as Rasputin..
That is what I think, but again same as you, I have no evidence to probe it... so It is my own  speculation of Felix"s motivations.

I think you are exactly on the right track.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on January 05, 2006, 07:54:53 AM
Yes, I agree it had a lot to do with those things. Like I said in the other thread, Zenaida was disowned by Alix because she told her to get rid of Rasputin. There are letters on this site that prove Zenaida, Ella (her friend, Alix's sister, and Dmitri's aunt who raised him) and Anna Rodzianko (Zenaida's cousin, and wife of Duma president Michael Rodzianko) were discussing and plotting against Rasputin for awhile. They wrote in code for each person, Rasputin being 'the book', his supporters 'read from the book.'

Not only was his mother shamed by Alexandra, Ella (who was also very close to Felix) was also disowned and 'thrown out like a dog' because of Rasputin. In addition, Felix's father, Old Felix, had lost his job as a sort of 'Lord Mayor' of Moscow because of Rasputin.

Michael Rodzianko had been quoted as saying he'd kill Rasputin himself if he weren't so 'old and fat.' So there was a very deep rooted hatred and conspiracy against Rasputin involving Felix long before the murder. Many people Felix knew hated Rasputin and wanted him gone.

This was no way a spurned lover type of thing. From what you read of Felix, he was obsessed with youth and beauty, and would not have been sexually attracted to the dirty, scruffy, smelly, older Rasputin. I believe he was fascinated by him, but had no physical attraction to him.

Another part of the intrigue is that Felix was also friends with Munya Golovina, one of Rasputin's biggest supporters, and also was a lifelong acquaintance with Anna Vyrobova, maybe Rasputin's biggest supporter after Alexandra. It's all such an interesting story, I suggest reading a variety of books on the subject to get the best objective view of it all.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on January 11, 2006, 08:49:46 AM
Yes, Felix did reiterate again and again who was responsible for the last of Rasputin, he made sure people thought, realized it was him, only him. He may have thought it was the most important event in lhis life, it seems he did. But he had another life, too, and it must have been a little dull eventually to be known as Rasputin's murderer, and nothing else-like this was all he did.He did want attention, and if this got him that, he had no reason to look elsewhere. Like other chracters, he grabs the stage, and doesn't allow anybody else.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on January 13, 2006, 08:21:44 AM
In Greg King's book, he brings up these issues, aand I read the book with interest. I really believe that that the murder of Rasputin, and the whole circumstances were more complex than it might seem.I doubt however that there was any phsyical relationship between Prince Felix Yusupov and Rasputin, even if the fascination existed, which it might have to some measure, but not as all consuming love relation. There are much better reasons why Rasputin's murder happened than merely some unknown sort of  affair between the two men. One does not know for sure, but it can be assumed this wasn't an overiding factor and most likely not really one at all.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Eddie_uk on January 13, 2006, 09:52:37 AM
I would have hoped that Felix had better taste in men.  ;D
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 13, 2006, 10:50:53 AM
Quote
I would have hoped that Felix had better taste in men.  ;D

According to Theo Aronson that was not the case....although  allegedly he had a liason in the 20's with Fulco Santostefano, Duc di Verdura...
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 13, 2006, 02:46:07 PM
Yes you're rigth. I've also read that after his wedding Félix continued to have relation with men ::) and particularly with this man, an Italian.
But what do you think of it :  one of Rasputin's daugters (I think it was the one called Maria) said that she once saw Félix completed naked in his father office ???. I do not think it is true :-/ because if I really  understand Félix's book, I think that Rasputin left his family and when Félix went to him to be cured, Rasputin had no longer contacts with his own family.

There is also something I did not understand. Because in its book Lost Splendor, Félix says that the first time he met Rasputin was while he was in Miss.G. house (but at this time he already knew him but only by rumors) and after he started his private interviews with him in order to know more things about the man he planned to kill.  
But what the book does not say is that Felix already knew Rasputine a long time ago before his supposedly first meeting in Mlle.G. house. Since Felix had played a nasty trick to Raspoutine, indeed, he disguised himself as a woman and presented himself to Raspoutine. But when this one discovered the imposture and he did not appreciate the joke and gave a slap on Felix's face :o. And I think that this event is one of the reasons which led félix mother to hate Raspoutine.
So this prooves that Félix was a liar and didn't tell us all the truth about his real story and his relation with Raspoutine.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: AkshayChavan on January 13, 2006, 06:05:14 PM
I wish to know what book r u talking about. I have never heard this idea of felix dressing up as a woman in front of Rasputin. I personally do not believe that Felix had any sexual relation with rasputin. Felix's "taste" was different. He had very handsome men falling at his feet. There was no reason for him to have sex with a disgusting peasant.

what i suspect is that reasons for actual killing were much deeper and Felix was just a front man for the job. I personally reject that notion of felix having sex with rasputin. I would really appreciate that while making future claims they are properly referenced from where they come from.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 14, 2006, 02:51:59 AM
OK! I have left the idea that Raspoutine and Félix didn't have any sexual relation!!! That's perfectly clear now. But what i want to know now is what their relation was really made of? Because you know (as I wish everybody know now) Félix was a great, great, great liar and he didn't tell us all the thing that happened in his life (I mean in his books). But I persist on telling that even if it was not something sexual, there was something between Félix and Raspoutine. Read the new version of Félix book, the one called Memoires and you will see how he describes the monk and how their relation was while they had their private interviews.

Now I am not lying abt the fact that Félix once played a joke to Raspoutine. If I can refind this article, I'll put it on the post and you'll see it by your own eyes.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 14, 2006, 03:22:47 AM
Dear Askhaychavan, here are few extracts which also stresses what I mean. Don't know if they are true but just have a look on it :

Why Felix Youssoupov Murdered Rasputin?
Free XpresSion [August 2001]

Rasputin became a malignant force in the Imperial couple's lives, interfered in politics and made recommendations for key government posts. Many believed the two were having an affair and that Rasputin had raped the four grand duchesses. Relatives, including the Tsarina's sister, Elizabeth, tried to warn her but the Tsarina refused to hear anything against Rasputin, which caused alienation within the family.
Away from the Court, Rasputin led a very scandalous life for a holy man. He visited prostitutes and nightclubs. He drank to excess and exposed himself in public.
Felix, himself, was a homosexual and a transvestite. Some historians claim he wanted revenge because Rasputin had rejected his advances. Maria, Rasputin's daughter, claimed she once found Felix in her father's study, completely naked.

Another extracts from another text.

From Enclyclopedia

There is also a strong sense that there was a homoerotic undertone to Felix's fascination with Rasputin. Rasputin, however, was apparently more interested in Irina, and it was on the pretext of a tryst with her that Felix invited him to the Moika Palace on the night he died.

When I'll find more I'll post it.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: jybenton on January 23, 2006, 06:45:32 PM
In the 1930's my great grandmother was interviewed by an Irish writer (I think biographer but I have no clue who) about the relationship between Prince Yussupov and Rasputine.

One of the questions and its answer during this interview has gone down in family lore; When she was asked if Yussupov and Rasputine had a homosexual relationship her reply was, "Rasputine Gommosexual? but he was only a muzhik (peasant)!"

My understanding of belle epoque russian society is that it was generally amoral and rather free thinking as long as one kept up the social side of things. With that in mind it is rather interesting that my great-granny wasn't shocked by the question in general, yet rather seemed to think that it was the perrogative of the aristocracy.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 25, 2006, 01:48:33 AM
 :)Thanks for these precisions. But can you tell me what does"gommosexual" ??? mean?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on January 25, 2006, 09:29:14 AM
I could take a wild guess and  infer it was a mistype error and jybenton meant "Homosexual".....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 25, 2006, 11:11:47 AM
Quote
In the 1930's my great grandmother was interviewed by an Irish writer (I think biographer but I have no clue who) about the relationship between Prince Yussupov and Rasputine.

One of the questions and its answer during this interview has gone down in family lore; When she was asked if Yussupov and Rasputine had a homosexual relationship her reply was, "Rasputine Gommosexual? but he was only a muzhik (peasant)!"

My understanding of belle epoque russian society is that it was generally amoral and rather free thinking as long as one kept up the social side of things. With that in mind it is rather interesting that my great-granny wasn't shocked by the question in general, yet rather seemed to think that it was the perrogative of the aristocracy.

Are you a descendant of Zenaida Bashkiroff, or her sister Who lived in Ireland and whose mother  was Felix's first cousin (Nee Countess Soumarokov-Elston)?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: David_Pritchard on January 25, 2006, 03:14:29 PM
Quote
:)Thanks for these precisions. But can you tell me what does"gommosexual" ??? mean?


A Gommoseksualist is the Russian word for a homosexual. The more common slang term is Goluboi Paren meaning Blue Guy and the derogatory term is Peda which is the slang word for Pederast.


David
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: David_Pritchard on January 25, 2006, 10:24:38 PM
Quote

From what you read of Felix, he was obsessed with youth and beauty, and would not have been sexually attracted to the dirty, scruffy, smelly, older Rasputin. I believe he was fascinated by him, but had no physical attraction to him.


I agree totally with Annie's statement. Feliks was an effeminate cross-dressing dandy, it is hard to imagine that he would be drawn to the human equivalent of a barnyard animal?  With that said, how could all of those women admirers have gone to bed with Rasputin? In old black and white photographs Rasputin looks filthy; one can only guess as to how foul he smelled in close quarters.

David
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: jybenton on January 26, 2006, 01:51:45 AM
Lancashireladandre your geneological prowess is impressive - as is everyone's on here. It's amazing to me how much all of you know. Are most on here descendants of the diaspora?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 26, 2006, 02:04:58 AM
Yes I completly agree with what you said David :).
How could a man like Rasputin who looked like a monster, could be considered at this time buy most of the russian women as a "sex-symbol"  ??? :o ????????
This is just unbeliveble. He had a strange and strong power over hers.
Also in Félix's book Memoires, he mentioned Mlle.G. with who he had a short affair became later one of Rasputin faithful devoted fan :-X.
She had the beauty with Félix and finished with the ugly and disgusting man. it is hard to understand what happened to her. She was bewitched by the monk (just like the Tsarine). But how??? and what was his power?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 26, 2006, 12:29:17 PM
Quote
Lancashireladandre your geneological prowess is impressive - as is everyone's on here. It's amazing to me how much all of you know. Are most on here descendants of the diaspora?

So you are a descendant  of Zenaida Bashkiroff.I remember reading her memoirs...fascinating.Her paternal grandmother Madame Bashkiroff (Nee Princess) came over as a lovely person.Heartbreaking when she stood all day at the window watching her confiscated livestock being auctioned....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: jybenton on January 26, 2006, 03:08:04 PM
It was not she that I was referiring to in the interview. I'm sorry to be so vague but i'd like to get a better feel for the players on the forum before i reveal personal details about myself or my family etc. Please don't take that personally.

I'm sure that as time goes on I'll feel more comfortable. I know that sounds utterly prattish.

Oh, what the hell!!!! She isn't an ancestor, no. A relative yes
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on January 27, 2006, 10:52:53 AM
Well, I am not sure about why Rasputin was found attractive by women, because he wasn't attractive by any standards, current or later. Perhaps it was because he was rather in the line of being able to have an affair with. ;)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Faberge on January 27, 2006, 11:02:18 AM
Quote
I personaly do not think Felix was involved in Rasputin's murder out of a  sentimental rejection. I think  that  was the least Felix care  about and even less comming from rasputin. I would go  for the  rejection and humiliation his mother suffered from Alexandra when Zenaida tried to talk the Tsarina to get rasputin away from the RF. If I were someone like Felix I could not  take very well that such an important  character as my Mother, one of the most Aristocratic   members of Russian  Society suffer such a humiliation  because of a "low" filthy social climber as Rasputin..
That is what I think, but again same as you, I have no evidence to probe it... so It is my own  speculation of Felix"s motivations.


Your opinion is very sound because pride was of the utmost importance to the aristocracy then as now. More so then, witness the countless duels instigated by honour above ALL.

The honour of the family had to be avenged and Felix was cast as the natural annointed avenger. It was his absolute duty to eliminate the ruiner of his family name. A creature who could come between his venerated parents and the Tsar and his family, their natural allies, was not to be endured or allowed to enjoy the company denied them. The die was cast.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Faberge on January 27, 2006, 11:25:49 AM
Quote
It was not she that I was referiring to in the interview. I'm sorry to be so vague but i'd like to get a better feel for the players on the forum before i reveal personal details about myself or my family etc. Please don't take that personally.

I'm sure that as time goes on I'll feel more comfortable. I know that sounds utterly prattish.

Oh, what the hell!!!! She isn't an ancestor, no. A relative yes



Enthralling. Hope you share more in time.  :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 27, 2006, 12:20:35 PM
But at this time in Russia could a monk have a sexual life ???. I mean was it considerated as normal? Because in the case of Rasputine, he was a religious and he had such an sexual appetite......known by everybody but it was as if people were living without knowing that or keeping it as a secret. Rasputine sexual madness was not a tabou subject and seemed to be quite accepted by the social class in which one he evolved 'cause he had the tsarine protection (and most of the women admiration) whereas Félix homosexuality was a taboo subject :-X but compulsory accepted 'cause he was the heir of one of the most richest family in Russia. 
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 27, 2006, 02:01:13 PM
Quote
It was not she that I was referiring to in the interview. I'm sorry to be so vague but i'd like to get a better feel for the players on the forum before i reveal personal details about myself or my family etc. Please don't take that personally.

I'm sure that as time goes on I'll feel more comfortable. I know that sounds utterly prattish.

Oh, what the hell!!!! She isn't an ancestor, no. A relative yes
Come on spill the beans....Is it Zenaida Burke or her sister Xenia Crossley or their half brother Andre Breiger ( my namesake !!!)you are connected to.? You don't have to reveal everything !!! :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: jybenton on January 27, 2006, 09:25:22 PM
Lancashireladandre - My great grandmother was a sister of Princess Dolgorukaya. They were cousins - although i don't think close - of Zenaide and Xenia.

I would have given my great grandmothers surname but i'm not sure how my family would feel about being spoken about on a public forum. As good as all of you are at geneology I'm sure you can work it out without me telling you.

You seem to have so much information could you pop over to the winter palace discussion and look at a posting about the empire or white sitting room? I'm sure you will either be able to help me or point me to someone who can.

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on January 28, 2006, 03:45:19 AM
I found an article that is stressing what I said ;) about Félix and Rasputine relation. Well, it is not about the love relation but about the fact that there was certainly something between the two......maybe stronger than just a friendship (which seems for most of us false)........but well let's read it and give your point of view, if you want :).

The adresse of the website is :
http://humabashir.tripod.com/id12.html

And here is what they said abt Rasputine and Félix :

The story of Rasputin's demise is well known. One night in December 1916, Rasputin was invited by Prince Felix Felixovich Yussupov to visit his palace on the Moika Canal. The pretext was the opportunity for Rasputin to meet Felix's wife, Irina, who was a great beauty and niece of the Tsar. Rasputin wanted to meet Irina and was flattered by Felix's attention. Felix claims he had been nurturing a relationship with Rasputin for a number of years before the invitation, although this relationship has never been fully explained. Felix always portrayed his murder of Rasputin as a political act to save Russia. Certainly, Felix had never shown any patriotic leanings before, so his murder of Rasputin is hard to explain from a political standpoint. It may have been there was some other, more personal, reason for Felix's desire to get rid of him.

Yes Félix had other more personal reasons to get rid off Rasputine......the dishonored of his mother made by the tsarine....... but I am sure the reasons were much more deeper than this one.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: AkshayChavan on January 28, 2006, 05:59:27 PM
Devarani,
          I really appreciate that you are quiet interested in Felix Yussupov. However, i must tell you that it is very important to be very critical before believing something. First rule, for any academic study states that your info must come from a VERIFIED SOURCE. I makes me really mad when people read rubbishy websites and that believe it is the truth. If you get any info, first see where it is comming from. The websites that you quoted hardly have any credibility. Even I can have a website alleging the Rasputin was the husband of Alix and father of OTMA. But it can hardly be called the truth. Similarly, the allegation of Maria Rasputin has as much honesty as would Lenin's book on Nicholas. I suggest you read some proper academic books like Nicholas and Alexandra, Man who killed rasputin etc etc... You must read different points of view and then decide where do you stand. I am very sorry if i am being to preachy but the thing is, it is not right to indulge in character assasination based on these stupid rubbishy websites!!!A fact is a fact only when there is hard evidence.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on January 31, 2006, 10:56:10 AM
It is best to read authorititave books and fond out what they say. The man who killed Rasputin by Greg King, is one I have read, and I think it is quite excellant, and might assist anyone wanting to know more about Rasputin, and Prince Felix Yusupov. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on January 31, 2006, 02:39:16 PM
Quote
But at this time in Russia could a monk have a sexual life ???. I mean was it considerated as normal? Because in the case of Rasputine, he was a religious and he had such an sexual appetite......known by everybody but it was as if people were living without knowing that or keeping it as a secret. Rasputine sexual madness was not a tabou subject and seemed to be quite accepted by the social class in which one he evolved 'cause he had the tsarine protection (and most of the women admiration) whereas Félix homosexuality was a taboo subject :-X but compulsory accepted 'cause he was the heir of one of the most richest family in Russia. 


That's a good question, Could a monk have a sexual life in those times in Russia?.. I think any Monk should not and/or was not allowed  to do it in most countries  and in most religions ( I don't want to start a revolution, this is just what I think). but also, it happenes.... now Did people know about it?.. I think  the general feeling was that they knew.. Now, I remember reading something about a book called something like "Holly fools of the Russian orthodox church" or something similar. The interesting concept of this book, at least it was interesting to me, was that  the more  of a sinner you were, the more you suffered and then the more you got closer to hollyness".. That is the basic concept I remember. Maybe someone else who has more knowledge about this concept or this book  could comfirm  this and explain better ..or correct me too..
In summary, I do not think it was  accepted, but I think it was tolerated...
Does anyone know anything about this?

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 01, 2006, 01:52:34 AM
About Greg king's book, The Man Who Killed Rasputine, is there an equivalent in French? Because, yes, it seems to be a good book in the case of Rasputine and Félix.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 03, 2006, 08:48:14 AM
I don't know if there is a French version. I myself am tryiing to find a book in English about the family of Prince Luitpold of Baveria ( 1901-1914).
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on February 06, 2006, 10:45:26 AM
Hi

I think it is very important for people to accept, whatever the myth maybe, that Rasputin was not a 'monk'.  In terms of Felix's relationship with him read the passages where he says he was with R in his flat.  Read about the kiss R gave him.  There is a good Russian book that identifies Y as either gay or bi - being married doesn't make any difference.

Richard
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 06, 2006, 10:53:00 AM
Yes, Rasputin was not a monk, and the complexities of his relationship with Prince Felix can not really be comprehended unless you think a bit. But Prince Felix did not carry on a affair with Rasputin from all the available evidence, as this wasn't really Rasputin's cup of tea. But as mentioned in pretty much any book that concerns the subject, it was a complex relationship, beyond even his murder.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 11, 2006, 11:04:40 AM
Rasputin was not a monk ???!!! But all the books or articles remind him as a monk-well a controversed monk under the influence of wich the tsarine had fallen and also conducted Russia to its loss (well that was mostly Félix job).
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 13, 2006, 10:51:49 AM
He is sometimes portrayed as a monk, albeit inaccuratly, because he was not, by people who might not understand what he really was.It is an unfortunate misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 17, 2006, 06:26:32 AM
Richard_Cullen
Palace Member
YaBB Senior Member

 Re: Félix and Raspoutine love relation
« Reply #38 on: Feb 6th, 2006, 10:45am »  Quote  Modify  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi

I think it is very important for people to accept, whatever the myth maybe, that Rasputin was not a 'monk'.  In terms of Felix's relationship with him read the passages where he says he was with R in his flat.  Read about the kiss R gave him.  There is a good Russian book that identifies Y as either gay or bi - being married doesn't make any difference.

Richard  



I've read (a long time ago but I cannot remenber :-/) abt the fact that during one of their interview, Rasputin kissed Félix. Where was it in his face or his neck? Well can't remenber >:(!
And can you explain why did he do that? If you know the answer ::)


imperial angel
YaBB God

GD Marie, Imperial Angel (1899-1918)

 Re: Félix and Raspoutine love relation
« Reply #39 on: Feb 6th, 2006, 10:53am »  Quote  Modify  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, Rasputin was not a monk, and the complexities of his relationship with Prince Felix can not really be comprehended unless you think a bit. But Prince Felix did not carry on a affair with Rasputin from all the available evidence, as this wasn't really Rasputin's cup of tea. But as mentioned in pretty much any book that concerns the subject, it was a complex relationship, beyond even his murder.

 

Yes it was a strange relation but what i would like someone to tell me is what was it? ::) What was it made of? Was it a paradoxical and only a one way relation ???

Because thanks to all you (members) you told me, there is something always missing in the answer to this request.

Thanks, Deva.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 17, 2006, 11:47:42 AM
It was a strange relation; many of Rasputin's relations with people are strange, and many of Prince Felux's were enigmas, for lack of a better word. But I don't think they were ever lovers, contrary to speculation in some books. I think it is just speculation, and common sense would tell you that they were never involved in a physical relationship, because Prince Felix wasn't the type to like uncleanliness, and Rasputin wasn't very clean. Also, Rasputin was heterosexual from what we know, not bisexual. So their relationship may have been complex, but I don't think there was any physical love. I appreciate your interest, and this is a very complex matter, and that's how I see it. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 18, 2006, 07:29:05 AM
Thanks :D.

Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 21, 2006, 10:56:35 AM
Glad I could help, it just makes me happy that someone posts on Felix. I am very fascinated by Prince Felix Yusupov.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 22, 2006, 07:02:45 AM
I feel the same like you. :D The first time I heard about this character I was completly attracted by him ::). Well his good-look, so smart and his face expresses a story, a life that I wanted to discover. And the fact that Félix symbolizes beauty, elegance and he had a narrow relation with Rasputin who was a dirty, scruffy and disgustin man, well it is just for me something attracting. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 22, 2006, 08:21:13 AM
Yes, the first time you hear about Felix, he just really grabs your attention. :) I enjoy reading your posts on the subject. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 22, 2006, 09:10:09 AM
Yes that's exatly what you say :D :D.
Did you see the picture of his book Memoirs? My gosh he is just so smart and well no other words. He is a prince that is just evident when we look at his face.



Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 22, 2006, 10:24:35 AM
I would like to know how we do to insert photos in one's post ??? ::) :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 22, 2006, 10:59:14 AM
I agree that you just look at his face and know he is a Prince. That is very well put. As for photos on the new users part of the forum there is something. Read this part of the forum, there is a thread about how to post photos, and if you have questions after that, it says you can contact Laura Mabee by private message. I myself am not that good at posting photos-generally you put the address of the photo between the img tags by clinking an icon of the picture above, where it just shows a photo. Direct linking I understand is not allowed, and you need to have your photo online on something like photobucket or image shack so you have img tags. But not being very good at this myself, Laura Mabee would be very helpful for you.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 23, 2006, 05:20:45 AM
Ok thanks, i'll check it and send some precious and unknown photos of Félix. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 24, 2006, 03:25:40 AM
(http://www.librairiepantoute.com/img/couvertures/memoi31235.jpg)

For my part when I see this picture ::), well there is no doubt that behind this face there is a mysterious life, an story that deserves to be tale to the others. To know how powerful was Russia at this time through the eyes of a powerful and loved man :).

Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 08:50:04 AM
I am glad you  were able to post that! I agree with your analysis of the photo of Prince Felix. He was one of the more fascinating people in Russian history, and that's saying alot.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 24, 2006, 11:05:53 AM
Yeah I managed to post this one 'cause I got from the Internet. But  I have more pictures of Félix in my computer and to post these ones I don't know how to do.
I've read the post dedicated to how post photos, but it is too difficult to understand.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 11:20:09 AM
Yes, I know it is rather hard to understand. I would like to see your other photos of Prince Felix. I think you should private message Laura Mabee. She is very helpful. If you have any other questions, just post them here.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Devarani on February 27, 2006, 07:15:32 AM
Here are few pics about Prince Félix Youssoupov. :)
I've posted them in this post 'cause i couldn't find :-[ an post exclusively dedicated to Félix pictures but let's enjoy the smartness of the man he was.

Young Félix portrayed by Serov :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/felix2.jpg)

Félix as a young man :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/felix1.jpg)

Serov Painting Félix :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/fserov.jpg)


Félix in fancy-dress at a bal in London :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/felixcostume.jpg)

Félix in 1916 :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/felixuniform.jpg)

Félix and Irina in 1916 :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/1915.jpg)

With their baby in 1916 :
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lostsplendor/images/trio.jpg)

Well these are well known pics. sorry 'cause these are not my rare pics :-[.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on February 27, 2006, 08:12:52 AM
Thanks for the pictures anyway, they are great! :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: ALEXEI_P on July 07, 2006, 03:00:07 AM
Does anyone have any information regarding Vera Korelli.  In Greg King's "The Man Who Killed Rasputin" she is mentioned in a police report as "a dancer" and having been at the Moika the night of the murder.  I wonder who she was, if she ever wrote her memoirs or what happened to her.

Thanks for any information anyone might have.

Alexei
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: rachel5a on July 08, 2006, 06:21:48 AM
I think she was Dmitri's mistress
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2006, 11:53:59 AM
Was it King's book, or Radzinksky's that referred to her as Felix's 'cousin?' If she was indeed a cousin, it had to have been on his father's side, since his mother had no living siblings. Anyone know?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: ALEXEI_P on July 08, 2006, 06:56:18 PM

Greg King's book quotes from a contemporary police report that she was there and is refered to as a "dancer" and FF's cousin.  Radzinsky makes no mention of her (or the report).  Her account in the police report puts Nikita and Feodor Alexandrovitch there as well.

Her name sounds familiar, but I can't make the connection.  Now that I've been thinking about it I remember her be refered to in some other account(s), but I can't remember which one (s).  Has she ever been discussed on the forum before?

Simanovitch (Rasputin's secretary) wrote that she was a witness to the actual shooting.  He puts NA & FA there as well.

I would really like to know more about this mystery woman.

Alexei
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2006, 09:32:51 PM
It seems Felix and everyone else except the police seem to deny there were even women present that night. The other woman was named Mariana, I forget her last name, she was Dmitri's stepsister, the daughter of his father's new wife by her first husband. Anna Vyrobova mentioned her being there, she knew her personally. Both of the women were seen being put out of the house around 6am, seemingly against their will but by someone inside who thought it for their own good. As for the young brothers of Irina, there is a report of three men leaving in a car just before dawn. Felix tells in his account that he drove back to his parents-in-law's home (where he had said he'd been staying looking after the boys while the parents were out of town) where he was met as he came in the door by one of the boys begging for details of the murder. It is very possible to me that the 'three men' were Felix and these two boys, they were tall teenagers. Of course he'd want to cover for them and hide their involvement, as well as cover his own hide for exposing them to such a bad situation. Same for the women. Felix's account has left out a lot of people who were there that night though evidence supports it (don't forget Oswald Raynor, his friend from Oxford, the British agent now rumored to have fired the fatal shot on Rasputin) So in this way, even as a murderer, Felix kept his word of honor by not ratting these people out. This is one reason I have wondered if maybe this is why Dmitri was so mad at him, because he didn't cover for him?
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: ALEXEI_P on July 08, 2006, 10:00:31 PM
Thank you for the information Annie.  You always provide such fascinating detail.

I remember reading somewhere that after the Tate murders in 1969, someone said that if everyone who claimed to have been invited to but not gone to the house that night , Sharon Tate could have expected dozens of people that night.  The same probably holds true of the events at the Moika.

I remember my Grandmother telling me that during a party in the 1930's, FF mentioned that two of his brothers-in-law were there.  Irina was so livid that she left without him.  He said nothing more about NA & FA being there--but finished his story and stayed for some time afterward. It's the only time that I've heard of that FF mentioned that IA's brothers were there.  She always accepted it as fact.  It's hard to believe that he would say that in IA's presense, perhaps he was drunk.  It is interesting though.

Regards,
Alexei
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2006, 05:37:56 PM
Your grandma knew them? That's awesome, tell us more!
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: ALEXEI_P on July 10, 2006, 02:07:19 AM
Hello Annie,

Yes, my Grandmother knew both FF & IA in passing, socially, but, after the revolution.  She ran into them a few times over the decades at various parties and functions.  The Russian emigree community wasn't as large that a lot of people mingled socially that probablly would not have before 1917.  I grew up with many stories about Imperial Russia, as I was primarily raised by her and travelled with her a great deal.  

She lived in St. Petersburg before the revolution and attended the Smoly. She had so many stories about so many of the personages we discuss here and on other sights.  Of course, she knew lots of the emigrees and frequently visited many of them.  I wish I would have kept a journal in those days, or that my father had---most of the stories are lost, but for my occasional remembrance.

I think I've mentioned on this site, that when I was about ten or twelve, I actually met FF.  He stopped by my grandmother's table during lunch once in Paris.  He reminded me then of Lon Chaney in the original Phantom of the Opera film--creepy.  He was altogether charming and polite though.  It was fascinating, for me at that age, to meet , not only a really famous and notoroius Russian Prince, but a confessed murderer as well.

I saw him on another occassion a few years later getting into a taxi outside the Alexander Nevsky after mass, with a crippled lady  (IA?). I hadn't seen them inside, but he was unmistakable.

I've posted some "stories from my childhood" on Greg and Penny's website.

Regards,
Alexei
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Valmont on July 10, 2006, 02:54:22 PM
Quote
It seems Felix and everyone else except the police seem to deny there were even women present that night. The other woman was named Mariana, I forget her last name, she was Dmitri's stepsister, the daughter of his father's new wife by her first husband. Anna Vyrobova mentioned her being there, she knew her personally. Both of the women were seen being put out of the house around 6am, seemingly against their will but by someone inside who thought it for their own good. As for the young brothers of Irina, there is a report of three men leaving in a car just before dawn. Felix tells in his account that he drove back to his parents-in-law's home (where he had said he'd been staying looking after the boys while the parents were out of town) where he was met as he came in the door by one of the boys begging for details of the murder. It is very possible to me that the 'three men' were Felix and these two boys, they were tall teenagers. Of course he'd want to cover for them and hide their involvement, as well as cover his own hide for exposing them to such a bad situation. Same for the women. Felix's account has left out a lot of people who were there that night though evidence supports it (don't forget Oswald Raynor, his friend from Oxford, the British agent now rumored to have fired the fatal shot on Rasputin) So in this way, even as a murderer, Felix kept his word of honor by not ratting these people out. This is one reason I have wondered if maybe this is why Dmitri was so mad at him, because he didn't cover for him?

You know, Annie?... I had never thought of that p[osibility regarding  Dimitry being so mad at Felix.... But  after I read it... It makes a lot of sense and Iwould not be surprised if you were right.. But I also guess we will never know for sure... I don't know if it is true or not but I read  Felix's daugther burned all of Felix's Diaries after his death.. If it is not true.. maybe one day they will come to light and then we might get an idea of what happened... but then again... Felix  is not a relieble sorce of information for me  (What a contradiction)....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Richard_Cullen on July 30, 2006, 04:56:20 AM
Hi

You should not believe all your read.  there is no police report that 'three men left in a car'.  This is a fiction for which theer is no supportive evidence.  The problem is that Radzinsky, Cook and others use pieces of what is in the GARF files and part of what was a document created by Albert Stopford, a man of dubious reliability.

Other than Stopford, who says he saw the police report, no one else has ever seen it it is not in GARF.  I believe it is a fabrication created by Stopford probably with the help of Rasputin's secretary.

We don't know what happened but if you read the Stopford account it does not read at all like any other police report of the time and is in complete disagreement with the live witnesses we have in policemen Efimov and Vlasuk.

Most of this has been done to death in the Rasputin strand.

Vera had a relationship with Dimitri (or so it seems) you can find mention of her in a letter on theis site between Dimitry (after his exile) and Felix.

The problem is so many stories were circulating at the time that information becomes confused.  In fact in his statement to police Y actually said ladies were present on the night, but Rasputin was not.  He later retracts this.

Richard
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on August 10, 2006, 06:56:24 PM
Recently I was reading somewhere on the internet about the early Russian movie industry where Vera Koralli's name was mentioned among others as an actress. By the way, I believe her last name is Koralli and not Korelli. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: rudy3 on August 11, 2006, 02:30:26 AM
Grand Duke alleged mistress, Vera Alexeyevna Koralli was born in 1889. After finishing theatre college, she joined the Bolshoy Theatre Ballet in 1906. She participated in Diaghilev’s “Saisons Russes”, and danced abroad  in Europe and the Usa. She was one of the first russian filmstars, 1914-1917. Emigrated to the west in 1918. Lived and worked in Lithuania, Romania (1930-1935 Balletmeister of the Romanian opera), France, Austria. Died in Vienna in 1972.

Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on August 15, 2006, 06:55:33 PM
Now, if there's anyone out there who could kindly teach me how to post a picture with our messages ( I have no clue how to do it) I will post a picture of Vera Karalli. According to the Russian online encyclopedia there are two variants for her last name: Koralli and Karalli. Korelli is not one of them.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: griffh on September 05, 2006, 05:09:46 PM
I posted this on another thread but thought it would help to fill in her career as a silent film star.  Robert Cullen has already stated that there apparently was no police files so my information quoted from Edvard Radzinsky is apparently not reliable.  I am fascinated by her family connection with Prince Yousoupoff.   

VERA CORALLI [KARELLI] [CARALLI], 1916
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/griffh130/VeraK.jpg)
Vera Coralli, [Karelli], [Caralli], Sakharov and Orlov Studios, Moscow, 1916. 

Miss Coralli’s smart dance frock is exactly like the evening gown she would have worn to the Yousoupov Palace the night of the Rasputin’s murder.  Just a note to say that American gramophone records of the latest dance tunes had become the rage in wartime Russia as had all the new dances.  This is why the gramophone upstairs was playing one of the latest dance hits, “Yankee Doodle Dandy.”  As you can see from the 1916 photo, the tone of that fatal night was met to be very glamorous, very smart, very young, and something to whet the appetite of that tired, doomed, old Rasputin.     

Vera was one of the ravishing silent screen stars of Russia.  She was also a ballerina but had turned to the cinema after an injury to her foot had temporarily halted her career.  However, as the mistress of the Grand Duke Dimitri, and through his power, she was able to keep her contract with the Imperial Ballet after becoming a silent screen star.  Vera worked for the famous Russian Film producer Alexandre Khanzhonkov whose films were directed by the brilliant, Yevgeni Bauer.

VERA CORALLI IN “SINGED WINGS,” 1915
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/griffh130/VeraCorelli.jpg)
Vera Coralli, “Singed Wings” 1915, directed by Yevgeni Bauer and co-staring Vitold Plonsky. (photo, Photoplay Magazine, 1915) 

Jay Ledya states in “Kino” say the Coralli was used as part of the plot to lure Rasputin to the Yousoupov Palace, stating: …”Able then to enter films without fear of losing her Imperial contract, she added her ballet fame to her film fame, and altogether she must have been a very tempting morsel whom Rasputin had long wished to meet.” 

Edvard Radzinsky, in “The Rasputin File” mentions a Police Department file on her:

“I easily found the ballerina’s name in the Department of Police case file.  There are several whole reports about Vera Karalli, whom the police suspected of taking part in the murder night.  ‘Vera Karalli, a performer with the ballet company of the Imperial Theaters, twenty-seven-years old.  During her stays in the capital, she was visited by the Grand Duke Dmitry Pavlovich,’ and agent reported.  Vera Karalli’s presence at the Yusupov palace on the night of the murder was also claimed by Simanovich, who went to the police station on the Moika canal on 17 December with Bishop Isidor.  After looking into it, however, the security branch agents reported that “there was no note of her being absent [from her hotel].’  ‘There was no note of her being absent.’  But that was the very reason for the cunning “rehearsals”: the sly substitution of another woman at the hotel for Vera Karalli on the night of the murder in order to give the latter an ‘alibi’—not a complicated thing.”   

After the Bolshi coup, Vera fled to Finland and Rudy said "Emigrated to the west in 1918. Lived and worked in Lithuania, Romania (1930-1935 Balletmeister of the Romanian opera), France, Austria. Died in Vienna in 1972."
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: griffh on September 06, 2006, 01:20:44 AM
Johnny I am dying to hear about your Opera.  I am rather embarrassed that my pictures of Vera were so large.  Johnny I love Vera in that hat.  I don’t know if you have seen “A Slave of Love” but it really captures Russian Cinema and the elegant and fashionable Silent Screen Stars of Imperial Russia.  I am almost sure Vera is wearing a Callot Soeurs evening gown, because of the beading.  It is totally amazing to me how that beaded pattern in her photo already looks like Art Deco. 

CALLOT SOEURS EVENING GOWN, 1915
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/griffh130/callot.jpg)
Even though the silhouette of this Callot Soerus frock is cut in an Empire styles of 1915, the general feeling of the gown and the use of rich beading and embroidery remind me of Vera's frock.  There is a similar chicness to me, but it is only a guess and I suppose it is not that important after all.   

Vera’s chinchilla coat in my former post which is so casually slung over the side of her chair, reminds me of a story my grandmother told of one of her society friends who had just acquired from her adoring husband a fabulously expensive Chinchilla coat which she planned to wear to the Opera for the first time.  All of society had heard about the coat but on one had seen it.  All eyes, including my grandmother who was in an adjoining box were riveted on the lady’s beautiful coat as she entered her box at the Opera.  My grandmother said, as her society friend simply let her Chinchilla coat drop off on to the back of her chair without the slightest concern and gracefully sat down, that an involuntary hush swept the audience.  Vera might have been a bit too "demimonde," for an exact comparison with my Grandmother's story, but to me Vera embodied the same smart-set feeling of the times.   

I just wanted to add that I was equally amazed at how the set from “Singed Wings” is so much like future Constructivist set designs for the Soviet Theater of the Revolution, and almost like something one would have expected to see in German set design the early 1920's. 

But anyway I just thought I might add a note about Khanzhonkov, the Russian motion picture producer that made Vera a star only because it helps to build an historic context for Vera and her prestige as one of Khanzhonkovs Silent Screen Stars.  It is so easy to discount Russian cinema prior to the Revolution.  Khanzhonkov and the Duma’s official photographer, A. O. Drankov had waging a battle for supremacy every since Drankov opened his Cinematographic Studio in 1907.  At the same time Khanzhonkov and Drankov were involved in a battle with Pathé and Graumont in France and Vitagraph and Lubin in America for control of the motion picture industry in Russia, which by then had penetrated far into the interior of Russia.  By 1911 Khanzhonkov had managed to gain the upper hand and his position was considerably strengthened by receiving an Imperial commission to produce first Russian historic epic, “The Siege of Sebastopol;” a motion picture that was able to compete on the world market with the extravagant historic epics of the French and especially of the Italian Cinema of the time.   Khanzhonkov was able to inform the Russian public in 1911 that:

“With the sanction of the Sovereign, His Imperial Majesty, the Tsar Emperor—the manufacturer of Russian cinematographic films, officer of the reserves, Captain of the Cossacks Khanzhonkov, enters into the production of a grandiose battle film, “The Siege of Sebastopol.”  His Imperial Highness, the Grand Duke Alexander Michailovich, organizer and builder of the Sebastopol Museum (together with those officers of the various departments of the Museum) assumes the work of preparation of this film under his exalted personage.” 

Khanzhonkov sent notices of the production of his film to all the movie publications in Europe and America, and by August 12, 1911, “Moving Picture World Magazine,” was announcing to the world that the Emperor Nicholas the II was going to attend the shooting of “The Siege of Sebastopol,” adding that an immense number of harmless shells will be used to create a realistic performance on film.  To add prestige to the film, it was privately premièred for the Emperor and his family and guests in Livadia, the newly constructed Italianate palace of the Nicholas II in the Crimea on November 15, 1911.  Khanzhonkov renamed his epic “The Defense of Sevastopol,” when it opened at the end of November at the Moscow Conservatory of Music where it two orchestras, a choir and battle sounds added to the solemnity and grandeur of the film.  It was acclaimed by Russian and foreign film critics as equal in quality to the latest French historic epic, “The Fall of Rome.” 

I think that knowing some of these facts is helpful, especially since the debacle that occurred during the muddled murder of Rasputin which put in on the level of a “Penny Thriller.”  As one of Khanzhonkov’s silent screen stars, not to mention her place in the Imperial Ballet, Vera was a personage to be reckoned with.  I suppose by December 1916 there was little sympathy for the IF, but I wonder what Khanzhonkov felt.   
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: griffh on September 10, 2006, 12:05:29 PM
Isn't anyone going to add anything more, or is the discussion over?  I hope not.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on September 18, 2006, 06:03:49 AM
Some have said that the house of Rasputin can not be actually visited,according to http://yusupov-palace.ru/afisha_en.htm
website it is false,special tours are actually organized...

Grigory Rasputin: Life in St. Petersburg City Bus Tour

"ÝThe tour will begin near the Yusupov Palace on the Moika embankment, on the spot where Grigory Rasputin was murdered. You will hear about how Rasputin first came to St. Petersburg, his first meeting with the Imperial Family, his relations with the Orthodox Church hierarchs, and the tragic political and historical events in which he took part. During the tour you will visit the building on Gorokhovaya Ulitsa where Rasputin lived in the last years of his life. You will also stop by the Petrovsky Island near Malaya Nevka River where Rasputin’s body was presumably dumped after his murder. During the tour you will hear not only the version of the plotters, but other versions of Rasputin’s murder as well. The bus tour will finish in the interiors of the Yusupov Palace where you will see the wax figures of the main participants of the plot."

Vassili

Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on September 18, 2006, 08:23:58 AM
Some have said that the house of Rasputin can not be actually visited,according to http://yusupov-palace.ru/afisha_en.htm
website it is false,special tours are actually organized...

Grigory Rasputin: Life in St. Petersburg City Bus Tour

"ÝThe tour will begin near the Yusupov Palace on the Moika embankment, on the spot where Grigory Rasputin was murdered. You will hear about how Rasputin first came to St. Petersburg, his first meeting with the Imperial Family, his relations with the Orthodox Church hierarchs, and the tragic political and historical events in which he took part. During the tour you will visit the building on Gorokhovaya Ulitsa where Rasputin lived in the last years of his life. You will also stop by the Petrovsky Island near Malaya Nevka River where Rasputin’s body was presumably dumped after his murder. During the tour you will hear not only the version of the plotters, but other versions of Rasputin’s murder as well. The bus tour will finish in the interiors of the Yusupov Palace where you will see the wax figures of the main participants of the plot."

Vassili

Hi Vassili,

The apartment in which Rasputin lived is occupied by a private person.

The tour (as described on the website) only takes the tour group outside the building at # 64 Gorokhovaya Ulitsa. Thus the website is not so much inaccurrate with its information, but it may be a little misleading for some who read the tour description.

Margarita
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on October 14, 2006, 08:53:35 AM
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Previous | Next12345678910Did British Secret Agent Shoot Dead Rasputin?
Tuesday, 17th January 2006, 14:14
Category: Healthy Living
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shocking new ballistics evidence reveals that a British secret agent was the deadly assassin who shot dead Russia's 'mad monk' Rasputin 90 years ago, it was claimed today.

A professor has travelled back in time to investigate the 1916 autopsy report, autopsy materials and photographs before finally shedding new light on the mystery death of Russia's famed 'love machine'.

Rasputin, born Grigori Yefimovich Novykh, earned himself a dark, sexual and bestial image in Tsarist Russia. His nickname, Rasputin, means debauched one but, contrary to popular belief, he was neither a monk nor a priest, but a wandering peasant who went on to gain a powerful influence over Nicholas II, the last Tsar of Imperial Russia.

Since his death he has been immortalised in several films and made universally famous by Boney M's 1978 disco classic 'Rasputin' which called him 'Russia's greatest love machine.'

Now Professor Derrick Pounder, head of the Department of Forensic Medicine at the University of Dundee and a senior forensic pathologist, is about to publish an independent review debunking myths which have been accepted for nine decades.

Historians have long questioned reports of Rasputin's murder on the night of 16-17 December 1916 in which it was claimed he was poisoned, then shot and finally drowned in a frozen river by Russian aristocrats who feared his influence over the Tsar.

However, after studying the autopsy materials, Professor Pounder said that ballistics evidence linked a British Secret Service officer to the fatal shot fired into Rasputin's forehead.

Professor Pounder also denounced the myth that Rasputin had drowned or had been poisoned.

He said: "I was asked by the author to study the original autopsy pictures and from these it was clear that the fatal shot to the forehead had been fired from a different weapon to the weapon which caused the other two
gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen. The fatal shot had been fired by the largest calibre gun known to be present, and that was the one which was carried by a British agent.

"The actual bullet used would have proved that beyond doubt, but it appears to have been removed by the British agent, ostensibly as a `souvenir', although we can assume he was taking with him the vital piece of evidence."

In a book by history author Andrew Cook, To Kill Rasputin - The Life and Death of Grigori Rasputin, this new evidence will be used to show that the British Secret Service were behind the assassination.

In writing the book the author undertook an exhaustive investigation that took him across Russia, Europe and into the heart of the British Secret Service archives. The book is published by Tempus and is available in shops now

I DO NOT KNOW IF WE CAN TRUST in anyway to this new version of the murder...does someone has read the book in question?

Vassili
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on October 14, 2006, 09:06:07 AM
Hi Vassili_Vorontsoff,

If you keep your eyes open on the Coronial Inquiry which is due to commence shortly, I as one of the investigators will be able to satisfy your curiosity concerning this particular line of inquiry.

My professional analysis, though revealing, is not so shoking as that asserted by Mr Cook.

Best regards,

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: ashdean on October 15, 2006, 06:14:57 AM
I rather think that Felix was a fella with  too much money   ,too much free times,not alot of common sense,very little focus,no  goals. A type of foolish innocent who gets into one misadventure after another.Only his misadventures were big and serious.In a way, I think  that Alexandras friend,Anna, Vyrubova,was, alittle, like Felix.Both being  in,and causing all sorts of  problems  and mischief, for other people, on a grand scale, but coming out  themselves, fairly unscathed .  
I do not think you are too far wrong Borgia..but we must remember too the Youssoupoff family had risen to their lofty position & immense riches through wisphering into the ears of various Tsars...Felix (and Zenaida too in her intriguing) must have thought they were only carrying on the example set by their illustrious forebears....That a peasant was an intimate of an Empress while the exqusite Princess Youssoupoff with her impeccable pedigree & connections was kept at arms length must have been galling to say the least.No wonder Felix ,carried away with his own importance and angered by slights to both his parents  decided to murder him.....
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on October 15, 2006, 04:05:38 PM
Hi Vassili_Vorontsoff,

If you keep your eyes open on the Coronial Inquiry which is due to commence shortly, I as one of the investigators will be able to satisfy your curiosity concerning this particular line of inquiry.

My professional analysis, though revealing, is not so shoking as that asserted by Mr Cook.

Best regards,

Margarita  ;)

Please Margarita,

Can you say more about it?Thanks in advance,

Vassili
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Belochka on October 15, 2006, 10:27:31 PM
Hi Vassili,

Thanks for your interest. I will present my forensic findings immediately after Richard introduces his preliminary report. At this stage all that I am prepared to reveal is that my reasoning is based on the original forensic evidence that I have in my possession. It is not based on sensational presumptions.  ;)

Hopefully that will happen soon.

Best regards,

Margarita
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on November 29, 2006, 09:47:10 PM
Griffh, I don't know what happened to the photo of Vera in a hat I had posted. It's been deleted somehow. I personally didn't touch it. How could it have happened?
As far as my opera in concerned, I can proudly announce that I have just finished the libretto, and have started composing the music. Usually I don't make proud announcements about any of my compositions. Even this time it's not the music that made me proud, but the libretto. And even here proud is meant more sarcastically than for real. I could have never imagined myself writing a libretto, since I don't think of myself as a writer. I must tell you I had been working on this text for seven years, and it's finally over. Wouldn't you be proud? The reason it took so long was the nature of it. Initially, I looked for librettists, I found some, but nothing ever materialized. I decided to write a bilingual opera, English and Russian at the same time to be more realistic, you now, Alix in English and Rasputin in Russian. That made the task of finding a librettist even harder. Finally one Russian lady provided me with a full libretto, entirely in Russian, and 100% useless for my purposes. I said that's it! 7 librettist to go through is more than enough. I had already read over 30 books on the subject, had traveled to Moscow and SP for my research, speak some rudimentary Russian (it's my dad's native language), have a better dramatic sense than most of the writers I met (in my early teens I wanted to become actor and stage/movie director), so I can't be any worse than my librettists. Most of the text and situations used in the opera come directly form original material: letters, memoires, diaries. That's one reason I use two languages in the opera, so I can keep the original wording of my document sources. Some stuff which was originally in French, I decided to present either in Russian or in English, depending on the situation (introducing a third language into the opera would have been problematic. Besides, I don't speak French at all.) So conversations between Alexandra and Anna Vyrubova which normally would have taken place in French are all done in English, and Rasputin's murder scene which is taken directly from Yussupov's memoires (originally written in French) is all done in Russian.
Out of dramatic necessity I had to create and add some dramatic situations of my own to the documented ones. Although there is no mention of Vera in Yussupov's memoirs, other historians suggest that she might have been present on the night of Rasputin's murder. So I thought why not!? I created a funny little scene between her and Dmitri, in which Dmitri is trying to teach Vera to laugh like a grand duchess in order to fool Rasputin, who is to arrive shortly in the basement, into thinking that Irina is upstairs having fun with her guests. The scene is in Russian. If you want I can post it here.
It just occured to me that I never explained how I solved the Russian problem in my libretto (since my Russian is very primitive.)
Except for what I found originally written in Russian, I wrote all the other material in English and then after I moved to Berlin from Boston (3 years and 1 week ago) I found a Russian woman who kindly translated all those scenes into Russian.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Vassili_Vorontsoff on January 01, 2007, 09:01:35 AM
Belochka,

You do not mention any more element on your request,what's new???

On december 16 of 2006(last year ,today)it was the 90th birthday if the murder of Rasputin,strange that nothing seems to have been prepared for this event...

V.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: s66405h on January 01, 2007, 12:37:41 PM
Here’s a link to an article when the Prince came to America looking for his Rembrandts in 1923 with a mention of the murder.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,717062,00.html
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Lemur on January 05, 2007, 09:30:11 AM
That's a very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: griffh on February 26, 2007, 01:19:37 AM
Johnny how totally fascinating.  Your opera sounds inspiring.  Berlin must be such an interesting place to live.  I believe that I read somewhere that the rebuilding of Berlin is the first time a major European city has been redesigned in over three hundred years, but I could be mistaken about that fact. 

I find your experience with your seven librettists to be amazing.  Isn't it amazing how Art pushes us beyond our own temporary disappointments.  It seems to have a life of its own and a determination to be heard that far outweighs our temporary doubts and fears. 

I think that it is great that you have Anna V. and Alexandra's conversations in English as Anna's interview with Rita Child Dorr shortly after her release from prison was in English and Anna appears to have had a good grasp of the language.  I believe the interview is included on this website under the general heading of letters or something like that. 

I think it is certainly within the bounds of poetic licence to include Vera on the forbidden night and I love the scene you describe with Dimitri. 

I just wanted to add a little information about gramaphone record playing "Yankee Doodle Dandy."  I don't know if you have ever read any of Irene Castle's books, such as "Modern Dancing," written in 1914.  Irene and her husband Vernon had danced for their supper in the Cafe de Paris in 1912 and created a sensation and were supposed to have been tipped by the GD Andre 300 francs for their dance.  The couple became an instant success and after touring Europe they returned to the USA and opened a very chic Dance studio in NYC in 1914 and were patronized by all the socially elite in America and Europe who longed to learn all of the new dances.  This was the era of a dance craze and all of the "animal dances," were at the height of fashion such as the Bunny Hug, Grisley Bear, Lame Duck, Camel Strut, Ostrict Dip, and the only one to survive WWI, the Fox Trot.  One could have danced any of these dances to "Yankee Doodle Dandy," so I have always felt that the gramaphone record was used to simulate a dancing party upstairs. 

Well anyway just a quick note to say thank you very much for sharing your creative process, as your opera unfolds.  As far as your photo of Vera in her hat goes, is it possible that you changed photo account?  I don't know any other reason.  Well once again thank you for sharing your creative work with all of us.  Griff 
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: Johnny on February 27, 2007, 07:17:28 PM
Dear Griffh,

You might actually be right about Berlin's being the first major European city to be redesigned in 300 years. And they have done an awful job. Entire neighborhoods have been ruined for ever. Unlike Barcelona where modern and old seem to complement each other, here in Berlin that mixture has produced some of its saddest results. Each star architect trying to push his most bizarre design with no respect of the surrounding architecture. And when the city runs short of money (which is all of the time) they throw away the project plans and turn the empty lot into a park by planting some trees. The city has no real concept and no real plans and no money to rebuild itself properly. It's really painful for me to see what's going on around me, and I am not even German and have been living here for only three years. The city is also covered with graffiti from the poorest neighborhoods all the way to walls of palaces and brand new modern buildings. The officials see it as sort of a poor man's art and have no plans to ever stop it. The east and west parts of the city don't seem to want to integrate. I know people from west Berlin who have never been to the East side. It's unbelieavable. It's still pretty much two cities. When I get too depressed about it I just take the train and go to Potsdam 20 minutes away from downtown Berlin. I feast my eyes on some glorious Baroque and neo-classical architecture and then come home. :)
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: James1941 on February 27, 2007, 08:43:40 PM
I have a question for Mr. Cullen, who I believe has as intimate knowledge of the matter as any one. Please don't take this as a contradiction. But, you say that the report on Koralli and the two Romanov brothers in not in the GARF files nor was there ever a police report on this incident.
Is it possible that such a report has not survived; that it was removed or lost from the police files on the Rasputin incident? Is Stopford's report the only one which mentions others in the Yusupov palace that night?
Is his report the only source that others have used to name the people in question here?
It is an interesting subject and I hope more light can be shed on it. Thanks for any response.
Title: Re: Felix Yusupov and the murder of Rasputin
Post by: imperial angel on April 26, 2007, 09:05:10 AM
There is no evidence right that Princess Irina ever met Rasputin, at all? Or is there some doubt? I can't recall about this, and don't know if this question has been raised before, but if it has direct me to the thread, I know that she certainly didn't meet him on the night of the murder, although he was supposedly coming to meet her, because she was out of the country. It was then he was lured to to the palace because he had never met her, according to every account I've ever read. Still, as with other historical issues, is there a firm evidence of this, is there not something which could have been overlooked, because many members of Russian high society did meet him- so why not her if they never met, which I'm assuming they didn't?  I've read the Irina and Rasputin thread in the Rasputin section, and that picture then is no evidence they met, because it was mislabeled. Also, what was Irina's opinion of Rasputin, can anyone quote something. I'm sure I've read about some of this stuff before, but it's still hazy for me.