Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Malenkaya on October 21, 2005, 02:33:38 PM

Title: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Malenkaya on October 21, 2005, 02:33:38 PM
This question just popped into my head, and I think we could end up with some interesting theories.

Annie mentioned in another thread that AA (who she believes was FS) wanted so badly to throw away her previous identity as FS, and was "lucky" to have someone say she looked like a Grand Duchess.

If I wanted to end my life and was unsuccessful, and then decided I would never be identified or found out by anyone (knowing there were people out there who would know who I was) the last thing I would ever do is claim the identity of someone as famous as one of the daughters of the Tsar.

AA may have been many things, but I don't think stupid was one of them.  You don't claim to be someone famous if you want to hide from your real identity for the rest of your life.   Yet it's assumed that FS, as AA, was doing just that by claiming to be AN.

When she was first pulled out of the canal, she said she didn't want to be identified because she was afraid she would be found out and killed.  This is long before anyone put a photo of the Romanovs under her nose and said she looked like a Grand Duchess.  (Yet this fits the idea of her being Anastasia.  Could we call this the first hint at the identity she later claimed?)  As far as we know, FS had no reason to fear for her life if she was found out.  She may not have wanted to be found, but not for fear of being killed.

So if AA was FS, why was she afraid for her life from the day she was pulled out of the canal?
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 21, 2005, 03:46:24 PM
When Schwabe discovered AA,  he immediately requested guards be placed at Dalldorf to protect AA.  And,  there were guards who were there to protect her at Dalldorf.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2005, 06:16:59 PM
Think about this, if she was Anastasia, and she was in fear of her life, why would she make such a big public deal of herself? I always thought if AN did survive she'd want to live in obscurity under an assumed name. The last thing she'd want is international attention. And remember AA set herself up for that by having the lawsuit. Nobody forced fame on her.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 21, 2005, 07:09:10 PM
AA did not ask for the Russian guards.

Schwabe requested them and they were sent to Dalldorf.

Evidently,  the Russian community felt there was a danger.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: rskkiya on October 21, 2005, 08:25:19 PM
I was under the impression that it was not so much AA's desire to not be found as it was her desire to stop being in pain!  AA(FS?) was deeply unhappy. She had lost her fiance, and was living in a city in chaos. Why do so so many people try suicide - Not really to die but to end their suffering!
  AA suffered and she did not wish to suffer anymore - if that meant not being AA anymore then so be it. She was now someone else not AA/FS or anyone else in particular -hence her initial refusal to communicate at the asylum.
I don't think that she set out to become "a claimant" I think that it just rather developed over time.

Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Malenkaya on October 22, 2005, 02:15:17 PM
Page 6 of The Riddle Of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth:

But the next day she broke down and admitted she was frightened for her life: "Indicates that she does not want to give her name because she fears persecution.  Gives impression of fearful reticence.  More fear here than reticence.

So again I ask the question: If AA was FS, why was she afraid for her life?  This is very different than being afraid of having her identity discovered because she didn't want to go back to being who she was.  She was afraid revealing her identity would lead to her death.  

WHY?
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: jeremygaleaz on October 22, 2005, 03:49:24 PM
Quote
Page 6 of The Riddle Of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth:

But the next day she broke down and admitted she was frightened for her life: "Indicates that she does not want to give her name because she fears persecution.  Gives impression of fearful reticence.  More fear here than reticence.

So again I ask the question: If AA was FS, why was she afraid for her life?  This is very different than being afraid of having her identity discovered because she didn't want to go back to being who she was.  She was afraid revealing her identity would lead to her death.  

WHY?


I think it's just a sympathy ploy for the new role she was acting out. Or she just suffered from  mental paranioa. I don't think there is a deep meaning there though.

Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: etonexile on October 23, 2005, 09:18:56 AM
Agrees with zackattack...she was mad...in a clever way....
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Annie on October 23, 2005, 09:46:31 AM
And because she was mentally off, and because she wanted to be an actress, it was easier for her to play and live in a fantasy world! Like Pete Townshend once said, 'sickness will surely take the mind where minds can't usually go'
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 23, 2005, 11:21:12 AM
If she believed she was GD Anastasia or if she was pretending to be GD Anastasia,  it would seem to me that in either role,  she would have to be or  pretend to be "frighten for her life".

Why?

The CHEKA, Reds,  communists and their leaders didn't want the world to be reminded of their dastardly deeds which occured in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg,  July 16/17  1918.

Most of you are not old enough to remember all the murders and clandestine activities which occured in Russia, Europe and accross the world in the name of the new USSR.    If you pick up old mystery books the word "Bolshevik" was usually the base for the murder while the victim was usually an agent of Great Britian, Germany, especially around Berlin, and let's not forget New York and sometimes Canada.

The word "Bolshevik" was later exchanged for the words "communist"  or "KGB".

The Bolshevik front organization known as the TRUST was used for all kinds of  dastardly crimes, including murders, until Sidney Riley, the British Ace of Spies,  revealed the CHEKA agents were taking every word of the meetings of the Whites who though the TRUST was an anti-Bolshevik organization to the CHEKA leader who told Lenin and  Stalin all the secrets of the Whites.

Yes, indeed,  if the real GD Anastasia or a claimant surfaced who appeared genuine,  they were in great danger.

What we do not know is if AA was on her own or part of a bigger skeme.  If she was just some small skeme looking for pennies, nickles and dimes,  we don't know.  If she was part of some larger policital skeme,  we have no idea.   If she was part of a larger skeme she could have been a CHEKA  agent or German agent or Polish agent.   Why would Russia or German or anyone else bother?   You have to place yourself back in that time period of 1920.  People didn't know what we know today.   Some people thought there were millions and millions of dollars to be discovered.   If it wasn't money,  it could have been a way to prevent a "real GD Anastasia" from popping up or being viewed as a honest claimant.  Afterall,  look at the terrible time AA had.  

The real GD Anastasia could have told the world what really happen that night.  

It appears to me that they [CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Moscow Soviets, Lenin, Stalin, communists, GPU, KGB] have gone through a lot of trouble making sure no one knew the complete truth.

Remember, the CHEKA stole documents even from Sokolov, the investogator,  in Paris,  I think it was, before he died.

Those who didn't believe AA was GD Anastasia, like Gilliard even told the judges in the trial of AA that they destroyed evidence.

As it is,  only nine bodies were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Two bodies are still missing.

One of them is the daughter of Nicholas II.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 23, 2005, 12:28:38 PM
Greg talking about the mass grave in Pig's Meadow:

Quote

....[in part]....


....I do think the grave was opened perhaps twice-I suspect once in the late 1920s, under Stalin's orders (at the same time as Anna Anderson began to get a lot of publicity in the West), perhaps to see how many bodies really were there, and again sometime between 1979 or 1980 and 1991...
Greg King


If this is true and Stalin order the grave open to find out if GD Anastasia was in the grave,  wonder what he thought when it was discovered that one female was missing.  Did he think Yurovsky's explaination of the two missing bodies was true or false?

So many questions and so few answers.

Anyway,  the reason I posted Greg's quote is because this shows to me that Stalin may have been far more interested in AA's claim than some of the posters believe that he was.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: rskkiya on October 23, 2005, 01:31:27 PM
Here is a ghoulish question...
IF the grave was opened in the 1920's (and I cannot entirely agree with GK on that) then what state were the remains... would there have been any flesh left?

Sorry if that's a distasteful or nasty question.

rs

Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 23, 2005, 02:47:06 PM
Quote
If she believed she was GD Anastasia or if she was pretending to be GD Anastasia,  it would seem to me that in either role,  she would have to be or  pretend to be "frighten for her life".

Why?

The CHEKA, Reds,  communists and their leaders didn't want the world to be reminded of their dastardly deeds which occured in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg,  July 16/17  1918.

Most of you are not old enough to remember all the murders and clandestine activities which occured in Russia, Europe and accross the world in the name of the new USSR.    If you pick up old mystery books the word "Bolshevik" was usually the base for the murder while the victim was usually an agent of Great Britian, Germany, especially around Berlin, and let's not forget New York and sometimes Canada.

The word "Bolshevik" was later exchanged for the words "communist"  or "KGB".

The Bolshevik front organization known as the TRUST was used for all kinds of  dastardly crimes, including murders, until Sidney Riley, the British Ace of Spies,  revealed the CHEKA agents were taking every word of the meetings of the Whites who though the TRUST was an anti-Bolshevik organization to the CHEKA leader who told Lenin and  Stalin all the secrets of the Whites.

Yes, indeed,  if the real GD Anastasia or a claimant surfaced who appeared genuine,  they were in great danger.

What we do not know is if AA was on her own or part of a bigger skeme.  If she was just some small skeme looking for pennies, nickles and dimes,  we don't know.  If she was part of some larger policital skeme,  we have no idea.   If she was part of a larger skeme she could have been a CHEKA  agent or German agent or Polish agent.   Why would Russia or German or anyone else bother?   You have to place yourself back in that time period of 1920.  People didn't know what we know today.   Some people thought there were millions and millions of dollars to be discovered.   If it wasn't money,  it could have been a way to prevent a "real GD Anastasia" from popping up or being viewed as a honest claimant.  Afterall,  look at the terrible time AA had.  

The real GD Anastasia could have told the world what really happen that night.  

It appears to me that they [CHEKA, Ural Soviets, Moscow Soviets, Lenin, Stalin, communists, GPU, KGB] have gone through a lot of trouble making sure no one knew the complete truth.

Remember, the CHEKA stole documents even from Sokolov, the investogator,  in Paris,  I think it was, before he died.

Those who didn't believe AA was GD Anastasia, like Gilliard even told the judges in the trial of AA that they destroyed evidence.

As it is,  only nine bodies were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Two bodies are still missing.

One of them is the daughter of Nicholas II.

AGRBear



Of course, a reasonable explanation for this could be one of the following:

(1) They --- the dastardly Bolsheviks, CHEKA, Soviets --- knew that Anna Andersen was not the Grand Duchess Anastasia, and therefore left her alone because of the dissension she sowed within the emigre community.
(2) They --- the dastardly Bolsheviks, CHEKA, Soviets --- were unable to kill this one woman, despite the fact that she spent most her time in vulnerable places like asylums or apartments in big cities (New York, Berlin). But despite their incredible abilities for evil, which allowed them to murder untold millions of Whites, kulaks, and God knows how many others, they were unable to kill Anna Andersen because of her . . . luck? Skill? You imply that if the Bolsheviks  believed she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia, then wouldn't they have been trying to kill her? Of course, they knew Olga Alexandrovna, Ksenia Alexandrovna, Nicholas Nicholaievitch and various other surviving Grand Dukes and Duchesses actually were who they said they were, and all of them died in their beds, so perhaps Anna's fear was a little, um . . . theatrical. Except for the highly suspect account of Felix Yussoupov trying to kill her given in the highly suspect Lovell book, is there evidence that attempts were made upon Andersen's life? Ever?

(3) During the visits to the gravesite about which you speculate, the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia may have been discovered and removed. Why not? It is not only the daughter of the Tsar that is missing, it is a son, and no one has credibly claimed to be him.

And finally, and I am sorry to say it, but the overwhelming image one gets of the terribles times suffered by Anna Andersen is that they were self-imposed. She bit more hands that fed her than a junkyard dog. I know she suffered physical illness, and I exclude that, but look at the list of people that she took charity from and then rejected.

Simon
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 24, 2005, 11:47:54 AM
Quote
Page 6 of The Riddle Of Anna Anderson, by Peter Kurth:

But the next day she broke down and admitted she was frightened for her life: "Indicates that she does not want to give her name because she fears persecution.  Gives impression of fearful reticence.  More fear here than reticence.

So again I ask the question: If AA was FS, why was she afraid for her life?  This is very different than being afraid of having her identity discovered because she didn't want to go back to being who she was.  She was afraid revealing her identity would lead to her death.  


Yes, why was she afraid for her life? When she'd just tried to kill herself?!? That’s a bit of a contradiction, isn’t it?

Anyway, if you look at the actual quote from the doctors at Dalldorf, it says not that she feared for her life (this is Peter Kurth’s conclusion) but that she feared "persecution." That’s actually quite different from living in fear that someone’s going to kill you. "Persecution" can mean just about anything. Was AA suffering from paranoia? Or was she just afraid that her family was going to track her down and demand she start supporting herself again, when she was in no condition, physically or mentally, to do so? (After all, she insisted to the doctors that all of her relatives were dead.) We simply don’t know.

What we do know is that it is highly unlikely the Bolsheviks were after an obscure Fraulein Unbekannt when they were busy fighting a civil war.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Rachael89 on October 24, 2005, 02:37:54 PM
The frightened for her life comment is rather odd after trying to kill herself. But it's probably something to do with the way she thought her life could end at the hands of different people (even if the fears were unfounded.)

Rachael
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 24, 2005, 02:44:19 PM
As to AA being frighten for her life after jumping into the canal in an apparent attempt of sucide,  this is easily explained.  If AA was trying to comment sucide earlier,  this doesn't mean she wanted to die after her rescue.  From what I understand,  the majority of people who make the attempt don't  intend to really die.  They hope someone loves them enough to come and stop them.   I've heard it's a "cry for help" for most.  Of course,  there are always the acceptions.

Ooooooh dear,  I accidently erased some of this post.

I was talking about  "being out of the box" and the possibility of AA being a CHEKA agent.  I'll have to repost this thought.  Be right back.

I said something about one of the reasons why I was thinking it was possible that AA was an agent was because of some of the information she knew which only higher officals knew and not just the favorite color of one of the Grand Duchesses.

I talked about the TRUST and that Stalin had wanted Reilly so badly that he had Reilly arrested outside of Moscow which was suppose to have been a secret and  this proved Reilly was right abut the TRUST being a front for the Bolsheviks.  And, Stalin told the leader of the CHEKA to call certain agents back to Russia.  And, this is the amazing part,  told the CHEKA leader to arrest and shot these certain agents.

Maybe,  AA realized that she had but two avenues to take (1) remain a claimant, or, (2) leave her position and return to the party "cell",  sent to Russia where she'd be arrested and shot.  She chose to reamin a claimant if she had to fly solo.

Being a clever girl,  she never gave up her role as claimant even at death.

I probably forgot somthing but that's all I recall at the moment..

Sorry.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 24, 2005, 03:08:17 PM
During the early to mid-1920s, people were actually kidnapped, brought back to Russia and killed. I think the problem with Anna Andersen as a CHEKA agent (or any other kind of Bolshevik organization) is that she herself called attention to the resemblance to Anastasia, and then lived as the Grand Duchess for the rest of her life. Surely if she was a renegade agent her best bet would have been to have disappeared, i.e. NOT to have called attention to herself.

Simon
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: ConstanceMarie on October 24, 2005, 04:59:54 PM
Maybe she was afraid Grossman was going to kill her and eat her!
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 24, 2005, 05:12:08 PM
Quote
Maybe she was afraid Grossman was going to kill her and eat her!


The Berlin police did tell the family in 1921 that FS was murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.  And, yes, as gruesome as it sounds,  Grossmann sold the meat of his victims to the starving people living in Berlin at that time.

AA jumped into the canal in Feb. of 1920.

If you meant to be funny,  I'm sorry,  I didn't find any humor it your post.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 24, 2005, 09:58:21 PM
Quote

The Berlin police did tell the family in 1921 that FS was murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.  And, yes, as gruesome as it sounds,  Grossmann sold the meat of his victims to the starving people living in Berlin at that time.

AA jumped into the canal in Feb. of 1920.

If you meant to be funny,  I'm sorry,  I didn't find any humor it your post.  Sorry.

AGRBear



Does anybody noticed that what Grossman was selling was human meat? I know this is an awful question but I'm curious to know if people may have suspected that they were eating human meat. How they found that he was a serial murder?  ???

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 25, 2005, 08:37:00 AM
I posted the short article about him under the thread about if FS was murdered by Grossmann.  

Since the questioned was asked here,  I'll make a short responce.

Evidently,  the people of Berlin were starving.  All the usual meat, such as beef and pig and lamb was gone.  Next came the odd smelling meat of horse, dog and cats....  No  longer did anyone asked what kind of meat was in the meat cart.

The article tells us:
>>...In Aug 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a struggle coming from the kitchen and called the police.  They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (a camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl, tied as if ready for butchering.<<
pps. 243-44  Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, 1962 Edition.
>>At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks.<<   No one knows how many women Grossmann killed.  He was in business of selling of "meat" throughout the war.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 25, 2005, 09:16:15 AM
Quote


Of course, a reasonable explanation for this could be one of the following:

(1) They --- the dastardly Bolsheviks, CHEKA, Soviets --- knew that Anna Andersen was not the Grand Duchess Anastasia, and therefore left her alone because of the dissension she sowed within the emigre community.


If AA was a Soviet agent placed into position by the CHEKA,  Lenin and or Stalin may not have known about it.  I believe the CHEKA leader Feliks Dzerzhinskii was on his own until Stalin finally felt powerful enough to pull in Felik's reins.

AA could have been a German agent just as easily.  There were many Germans who had been working in Russia as teachers,  nannies, companions in the upper circles and who returned to Germany due to their patriotic sense of duty to the Fatherland.  But I think it's unlikely since there were too many things going on already between the two countries.  And,  the Germans were cousins and knew what was occuring within the family without the use of agents.  There were the Germans who were Leninites [future communist] who were linked to the Soviet party lines....

Quote
(2) They --- the dastardly Bolsheviks, CHEKA, Soviets --- were unable to kill this one woman, despite the fact that she spent most her time in vulnerable places like asylums or apartments in big cities (New York, Berlin). But despite their incredible abilities for evil, which allowed them to murder untold millions of Whites, kulaks, and God knows how many others, they were unable to kill Anna Andersen because of her . . . luck? Skill? You imply that if the Bolsheviks  believed she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia, then wouldn't they have been trying to kill her? Of course, they knew Olga Alexandrovna, Ksenia Alexandrovna, Nicholas Nicholaievitch and various other surviving Grand Dukes and Duchesses actually were who they said they were, and all of them died in their beds, so perhaps Anna's fear was a little, um . . . theatrical. Except for the highly suspect account of Felix Yussoupov trying to kill her given in the highly suspect Lovell book, is there evidence that attempts were made upon Andersen's life? Ever?


Yes,  you are right,  if the CHEKA wanted AA dead,  the task would have been easily done.  And,  it wasn't.  So, maybe,  she continued to be one of Feliks Dzerzhinskii's little secrets he kept from Lenin and Stalin.  Afterall,  it was the CHEKA,  who may have failed to have killed the real GD Anastasia in Ekaterinburg,  and they were still looking for the real GD Anastasia in the 1920s.

Where did the real GD Anasasia go if she did escape?   Ahhh, yes,  the question to which no one seems to know the answer.  Those who may have known,  may have taken this secret to their grave.


Quote
(3) During the visits to the gravesite about which you speculate, the bodies of Alexei and Anastasia may have been discovered and removed. Why not? It is not only the daughter of the Tsar that is missing, it is a son, and no one has credibly claimed to be him.


There are several interesting rumors I've heard but no evidence any of them are true.

Summers and Mangold talk in great lenth about the possibility that Alexandra and her daughters might have been in Perm and that one of them, Anastasia, had escaped.

There was another story taken down by one of the investigataors about Anastasia and Alexis being found by soldiers whom the story tellers/ witnesses  assumed were Reds who took them away in a carriage.

Quote
And finally, and I am sorry to say it, but the overwhelming image one gets of the terribles times suffered by Anna Andersen is that they were self-imposed. She bit more hands that fed her than a junkyard dog. I know she suffered physical illness, and I exclude that, but look at the list of people that she took charity from and then rejected.

Simon


If AA was not GD Anastasia,  her difficulties were mutiple.

(1) AA may have been suffering from anxiety of being discovered by the Romanovs as being a fake.  

(2) AA may have, also,  been suffering from anxiety of having lost her CHEKA connections and having to continue on her own

(3)  AA may have been fallen into real depression due to all the unknowns of which  we may know absolutely nothing and all these unknowns could cover lost of contact with her family, like a child,  deaths in her family or a lover.  The play acting and the real medical depression caused by all her anxieties alll tumbled into one....

(4)  Also, AA was  pyscially ill with tb and whatever else she had, probably lack of a good diet

(5)  the list could go on and on.....

AA's habit of biting the hand that fed her in the early years may have been because she was feeling too comfortable and her mask was slipping, so,  she had to remove herself and go elsewhere so she would remain sharp and on her guard....

I don't know enough of her life so this is just a general feeling I've gotten from what I have read.   I'll have to rely on others who seem to know AA's life down to every minute of her life after she jumped into the canal in Feb. of 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: etonexile on October 25, 2005, 07:10:49 PM


As it is,  only nine bodies were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

Two bodies are still missing.

One of them is the daughter of Nicholas II.

AGRBear[/quote]

Reality check with AGRBear....You know that 4(did I say 4?...as in...4?) international,independant DNA testing labs stated that AA...<<<((("WAS NOT")))>>>...related to known members of the IF...and was nearly 100% certainly related to the Polish peasant family of FS....Are we together here...a tad bit?...?
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 25, 2005, 10:34:54 PM
Quote

If AA was a Soviet agent placed into position by the CHEKA,  Lenin and or Stalin may not have known about it.  I believe the CHEKA leader Feliks Dzerzhinskii was on his own until Stalin finally felt powerful enough to pull in Felik's reins.

AA could have been a German agent just as easily.  There were many Germans who had been working in Russia as teachers,  nannies, companions in the upper circles and who returned to Germany due to their patriotic sense of duty to the Fatherland.  But I think it's unlikely since there were too many things going on already between the two countries.  And,  the Germans were cousins and knew what was occuring within the family without the use of agents.  There were the Germans who were Leninites [future communist] who were linked to the Soviet party lines....


Yes,  you are right,  if the CHEKA wanted AA dead,  the task would have been easily done.  And,  it wasn't.  So, maybe,  she continued to be one of Feliks Dzerzhinskii's little secrets he kept from Lenin and Stalin.  Afterall,  it was the CHEKA,  who may have failed to have killed the real GD Anastasia in Ekaterinburg,  and they were still looking for the real GD Anastasia in the 1920s.

Where did the real GD Anasasia go if she did escape?   Ahhh, yes,  the question to which no one seems to know the answer.  Those who may have known,  may have taken this secret to their grave.



There are several interesting rumors I've heard but no evidence any of them are true.

Summers and Mangold talk in great lenth about the possibility that Alexandra and her daughters might have been in Perm and that one of them, Anastasia, had escaped.

There was another story taken down by one of the investigataors about Anastasia and Alexis being found by soldiers whom the story tellers/ witnesses  assumed were Reds who took them away in a carriage.


If AA was not GD Anastasia,  her difficulties were mutiple.

 (1) AA may have been suffering from anxiety of being discovered by the Romanovs as being a fake.  

(2) AA may have, also,  been suffering from anxiety of having lost her CHEKA connections and having to continue on her own

(3)  AA may have been fallen into real depression due to all the unknowns of which  we may know absolutely nothing and all these unknowns could cover lost of contact with her family, like a child,  deaths in her family or a lover.  The play acting and the real medical depression caused by all her anxieties alll tumbled into one....

(4)  Also, AA was  pyscially ill with tb and whatever else she had, probably lack of a good diet

(5)  the list could go on and on.....

AA's habit of biting the hand that fed her in the early years may have been because she was feeling too comfortable and her mask was slipping, so,  she had to remove herself and go elsewhere so she would remain sharp and on her guard....

I don't know enough of her life so this is just a general feeling I've gotten from what I have read.   I'll have to rely on others who seem to know AA's life down to every minute of her life after she jumped into the canal in Feb. of 1920.

AGRBear



In no particular order:

(1) The Perm stories in Summers and Mangold are discredited. You would have to disregard every bit of testimony concerning the executions in Ekaterinburg. The bodies would have had to be transported back to the grave of Nicholas, Trupp, Kharitonov, Demidova and Botkin --- and Alexei and Anastasia would still be missing. The File on the Tsar has moments of insight, but there is no evidence that supports the Perm story other than hearsay, and a great deal of forensic eveidence that supports the idea that the Imperial Family was, in fact, massacred on July 16, 1918.

(2) The "biting the hand that fed her" behavior was not limited to the early years of Andersen's impersonation. It was a pattern of a lifetime, and continued until she went to Charlottesville in 1969. A case could be made that her treatment of Jack Manahan made him her last victim, but she was also nasty to people like Prince Frederick and others. To be fair, these continued to support her claims. But she treated them badly.

(3) The idea that she was a CHEKA agent who couldn't come in from the cold is too silly to take seriously, as is the idea that "independent" operations could be run at the level of her impersonation. Both Lenin and Stalin were perfectly aware of her claims --- you hardly needed a secret service to be aware of them --- and if she was either a rogue agent or a double agent, they would have dealt with her. I think it most likely that they let her be because a) it was known that she wasn't a Grand Duchess and b) it created dissension within the emigre community, and that would have pleased the communist government.

(4) The idea that her depression was severe enough to blend into her playacting and create a worldview in which she actually believed she was Anastasia is interesting. Was she treated for depression at Dalldorf?

(5) Suicidal people will sometimes keep attempting the act until they are successful. There is no one reaction to it.

(6) In fact, I don't think Anna Andersen was afraid to be found. I think she wanted to be found. In the end, she was the one who pushed the identification of herself as Grand Duchess Anastasia by pointing out her resemblance to the real girl pictured in the magazines at Dalldorf. This information is in Kurth. Andersen asked the night nurse at the sanatorium if, in fact, she didn't notice the resemblance. She supplied the correct name when asked whether she was Tatiana by striking out all of her sisters' names on a list. Far from avoiding publicity, she allowed herself to be exploited by people like Gleb Botkin (even granting that he truly believed in Andersen, Botkin pushed the envelope by his open letter of attack upon those Romanovs that did not).

(7) I agree that she may have indeed suffered from the anxiety that the Romanovs would prove she was a fake.

But in the end, I don't think she was afraid to be found. And remember, thereafter this woman never had to hold a job in her life. If you were originally a factory worker, you are then elevated to a life beyond your wildest imagination.

Simon
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Lizameridox on October 26, 2005, 07:01:20 AM
Bravo, Simon.  Well thought out, well reasoned and very logical.  I, too, threw out Summers and Mangold long ago.  It's too bad the only available English edition of the Sokolov is incomplete and suffers from the bias of its editors...
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 10:07:41 AM
Quote


In no particular order:

(1) The Perm stories in Summers and Mangold are discredited. You would have to disregard every bit of testimony concerning the executions in Ekaterinburg. The bodies would have had to be transported back to the grave of Nicholas, Trupp, Kharitonov, Demidova and Botkin --- and Alexei and Anastasia would still be missing. The File on the Tsar has moments of insight, but there is no evidence that supports the Perm story other than hearsay, and a great deal of forensic eveidence that supports the idea that the Imperial Family was, in fact, massacred on July 16, 1918.


The Perm stories have not been discredited.  What has occured is that people have set these testimonies aside.

Greg King wrote in a post which I'll have to find said that he and Penny didn't find information which they found interesting enough to follow.  Like others,  it was their opinion at the time he wrote the post and the book that there were no survivors.  However, they did include the fact that Anastasia may have survived for a time but not Alexei.   [Note: It's been too long since I read these posts so I may not remember this as accurately as I should.]

Most posters here think that an escape was impossible because they lean so heavily on Yurovsky, Ermakov and the other men who were the shooters of  Nicholas II and at least eight others who were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

My clue is based a geat deal on the lack of bones which should have been in the grave but were not.  Indicating to me that this was not the original  grave for some.

Since most of these testimonies as well as evidence was destroyed not just by the Reds, it was also destroyed by the Whites, including men like Gilliard who admitted in AA's trial that he had destroyed important information/evidence.  

The reason I have to depend so much on the outdated book of Summers and Mangold is because they are the only ones who dug into the testimonies which are still in existence and placed them in a book I have read.   As far as I know,  they did not fabricate the testimonies they entered into their book.

Quote
(2) The "biting the hand that fed her" behavior was not limited to the early years of Andersen's impersonation. It was a pattern of a lifetime, and continued until she went to Charlottesville in 1969. A case could be made that her treatment of Jack Manahan made him her last victim, but she was also nasty to people like Prince Frederick and others. To be fair, these continued to support her claims. But she treated them badly.


Like I said,  I'll have to let others who know more about AA's life to make comments.

Quote
(3) The idea that she was a CHEKA agent who couldn't come in from the cold is too silly to take seriously, as is the idea that "independent" operations could be run at the level of her impersonation. Both Lenin and Stalin were perfectly aware of her claims --- you hardly needed a secret service to be aware of them --- and if she was either a rogue agent or a double agent, they would have dealt with her. I think it most likely that they let her be because a) it was known that she wasn't a Grand Duchess and b) it created dissension within the emigre community, and that would have pleased the communist government.


This is just a "out of the box" speculation and needs to be suggested and investigated to see just how "silly" or "impossible" this could have been.

I'm not sure how many of you understand how entangled Felik D., the head of the CHEKA's, agents were in Europe.   These agents had worked their way into very high positions even in the British SIS as well as their world of politics.

Lenin and Stalin in those early years had given Felik D. freedom with his agents, including the organizations called TRUST, the Lysma and other revolutionary "cells" [groups].

It was not uncommon for revolutionaries to infiltrate the factories like the one AA, if she was FS,  was working.  

Lenin and Stalin may not have known about  AA and the reason behind the need of creating a false GD Anastasia.

Like the woman in  My Fair Lady,  AA  must have had gone through a period of training to become a GD Anastasia claimant.  Why?  There was a great deal a commoner had to learn about being royal, Russian and enough of the various languages (High German, French, Enlgish and Russian) to fool people  who knew the GD.

Quote
(4) The idea that her depression was severe enough to blend into her playacting and create a worldview in which she actually believed she was Anastasia is interesting. Was she treated for depression at Dalldorf?


Again,  I'll have to let others answer this because I don't recall this part of AA's life.

Quote
(5) Suicidal people will sometimes keep attempting the act until they are successful. There is no one reaction to it.


Like I said,  there are always the acceptions.

I think on one of these threads,  people thought that some of the scars AA had were self inflicted.

I don't know.

Quote
(6) In fact, I don't think Anna Andersen was afraid to be found. I think she wanted to be found. In the end, she was the one who pushed the identification of herself as Grand Duchess Anastasia by pointing out her resemblance to the real girl pictured in the magazines at Dalldorf. This information is in Kurth. Andersen asked the night nurse at the sanatorium if, in fact, she didn't notice the resemblance. She supplied the correct name when asked whether she was Tatiana by striking out all of her sisters' names on a list. Far from avoiding publicity, she allowed herself to be exploited by people like Gleb Botkin (even granting that he truly believed in Andersen, Botkin pushed the envelope by his open letter of attack upon those Romanovs that did not).


My suggestions were possible reasons she may have been afraid if she was GD Anastasis  or  FS or AA  (if she was not FS).

Quote
(7) I agree that she may have indeed suffered from the anxiety that the Romanovs would prove she was a fake.

But in the end, I don't think she was afraid to be found. And remember, thereafter this woman never had to hold a job in her life. If you were originally a factory worker, you are then elevated to a life beyond your wildest imagination.

Simon


Since I'm not sure, yet,  that AA was FS,  then  I really can't respond to your question, accept to say,  whomever she was,  anxiety had to have raised it's ugly head and could have caused all kinds of mental problems,  one of which, I think, was probably depression.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 26, 2005, 10:48:05 AM
Quote
Lenin and Stalin may not have known about  AA and the reason behind the need of creating a false GD Anastasia.
.

Speculation is fun, but this flies in the face of everything we know about either of these men. A major operation involving a "survivor" of the execution was being run, and it not have their approval?

As far as the Perm stories are concerned, take a look at the copywright date on The File on the Tsar. The bodies had not been found. And I am not implying that Summers and Mangold fabricated the evidence. I think they successfully tracked down rumors about the survival of the family, and reported them. But there were also other rumors reported in the book. They thought that there was more credibility to the Perm stories, but they always qualified them with the proviso that none of them had been demonstrated to be true. The actual bodies in the actual grave argue against the Perm story, no matter how many bones are missing ---- can you give a possible explanation as to why the women would have been carted back to Ekaterinburg to be either buried or shot? I really think the point of the grave was that it wouldn't be found, so why go to the extra trouble?


Simon
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Annie on October 26, 2005, 11:04:57 AM
Like I've said before, I was a high school freshman when "File on the Tsar" came out, but even then I didn't buy into it. I also don't think they 'lied' but assumed much and played it as the truth when really, it was not, and never was.

As far as the Perm stories, it has been posted here, even by FA, what was behind that. There was some part of the peace plan between Germany and Russia that ended the war for Russia that stated the "Princesses of German blood" (Alix and OTMA) be delivered safely into German hands. By the time those who killed them found out about this, it was too late, so they had to plant rumors that they were still alive in order to not get the blame and risk the fragile new peace. They spread rumors they were seen in Perm, and people believed them, and even to this day some still use this as 'evidence' of their 'escape' when really, it never happened!

Don't think this is preposterous, there is a precedent. Read the memoirs of one of the Bolsheviks responsible for the pit executions of Ella, the KR sons, Paley and Segei Mikhailovich, in the book "Nicholas and Alexandra, a Lifelong Passion." He says in so many words after they did their deed, they ran back to the town and tolled the bell, announcing the prisoners had been taken away by 'unknown persons' in the night! This was to get the blame off their backs if the approaching White army caught them and tried to seek revenge for the killings. They DID plant false stories to throw off the trial and absolve themselves of guilt and its consequences. Perm was another example of that happening.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2005, 11:08:28 AM
Quote

 They spread rumors they were seen in Perm, and people believed them, and even to this day some still use this as 'evidence' of their 'escape' when really, it never happened! Don't think this is preposterous, there is a precedent.


Elvis was/is often seen all over the world*. It doesn't mean that he was/is still alive...

*P.S. So are UFOs.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 12:01:35 PM
There are answers given by myself and others already on other threads about Perm, mass grave in Pig's Meadow and the missing bones. I will, when I have time,  placed here the different URLs [threads].  We can carry these conversations back to the threads they belong.

I believe this thread is about why or even  if AA was fearful for her life.

I think that she could have been for different reasons and each reason depended upon who or what she was.

If she was AA or FS or GD Anastasia there would have been different reasons.   Although I don't think she was the GD, some people who post do, so I thought to make comments on all three or two [if AA was FS].

AGRBear

(1) Missing Bodies - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980672;start=0#0
(2) Pig's Meadows Grave Questioins - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106871065;start=0#0
(3) Questions About Testimonies of Yurovsky's & Others - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106530719;start=0#0
(4) Why Did They Killed Them? - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102903170;start=0#0
(5)  Did Any of the Romanovs Survive? - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1074956237;start=0#0
(6) The Perm Story - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1113068456;start=0#0
(7) Testimonies of Sightings After 16 July 1918 - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1091994509;start=0
(8 ) AA Scars Self Inflicted? - http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1114803266
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Annie on October 26, 2005, 12:14:27 PM
Then to answer the original question, nope. She was not afraid to be found. She spent decades making a public spectacle of herself, calling herself AN. If she was so afraid and wanted to hide, she would not have done this.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 26, 2005, 12:58:13 PM
I think it bears repeating:

According to the Dalldorf report, AA did not say she was living in fear of her life. No. She said she was afraid of "persecution."

The only evidence we have that this "persecution" amounted to a life-threatening situation is Peter Kurth's. He concluded - concluded, I stress - that this is what she meant. But unless we have the actual doctors' reports in front of our eyes and they say something different, all we have for now is that AA was afraid of "persecution."
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 01:11:26 PM
Quote

Elvis was/is often seen all over the world*. It doesn't mean that he was/is still alive...

*P.S. So are UFOs.


We're not commenting on this kind of post anymore.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 01:12:46 PM
Quote
I think it bears repeating:

According to the Dalldorf report, AA did not say she was living in fear of her life. No. She said she was afraid of "persecution."

The only evidence we have that this "persecution" amounted to a life-threatening situation is Peter Kurth's. He concluded - concluded, I stress - that this is what she meant. But unless we have the actual doctors' reports in front of our eyes and they say something different, all we have for now is that AA was afraid of "persecution."


So,  you think this is just part of Peter Kurth's interpretation of what AA meant.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 26, 2005, 01:20:07 PM
It's quite possible that Peter Kurth has some kind of proof that AA told the doctors at Dalldorf she was living in fear of her life. But in that case he should have quoted it directly. Otherwise his account is somewhat misleading, especially since what he actually quotes from the doctors' report is that AA feared "persecution." Persecution, not murder. So that is all we have to go on, unless someone else here can cite the report in full.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 01:35:37 PM
So this could mean she feared persecution of her making a claim of being GD Anastasia?

Could someone tell me a page number in Kurth's book on  Anastasia?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 26, 2005, 01:51:36 PM
Quote

The Perm stories have not been discredited.  What has occured is that people have set these testimonies aside.


Because they were discredited. If they had not been, they would not have been set aside. Am I missing an argument thread here?

Quote
Greg King wrote in a post which I'll have to find said that he and Penny didn't find information which they found interesting enough to follow.  Like others,  it was their opinion at the time he wrote the post and the book that there were no survivors.  However, they did include the fact that Anastasia may have survived for a time but not Alexei.   [Note: It's been too long since I read these posts so I may not remember this as accurately as I should.]


Penny Wilson certainly speculated that as many as four of the people shot that night might have left the Ipatiev House alive, judging by certain descriptions given by the shooters and the forensic examination of the remains.

Quote
Most posters here think that an escape was impossible because they lean so heavily on Yurovsky, Ermakov and the other men who were the shooters of  Nicholas II and at least eight others who were found in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow.

My clue is based a geat deal on the lack of bones which should have been in the grave but were not.  Indicating to me that this was not the original  grave for some.


The excavation of the remains was not carried out in the most careful manner, and there is evidence that the grave was disturbed in the 1970s. I believe you have speculated that the grave site might also have been disturbed under Stalin. If true, these incursions might have accounted for some of the missing bones. There was also a large amount of acid poured over the bodies. Several of the skulls show signs of intense punishment, and none of the bodies was encased in a coffin, or preserved in any way. All of these seem more probable than the idea that the grave site was not the original resting place.  

Quote
Since most of these testimonies as well as evidence was destroyed not just by the Reds, it was also destroyed by the Whites, including men like Gilliard who admitted in AA's trial that he had destroyed important information/evidence.


"Most" of the testimonies? Greg King and Penny Wilson were certainly able to find a substantial number of corroborative testimonies when they wrote Fate of the Romanovs. I find this book to be authoritative in nearly every aspect ---- they document their plentiful sources. If, for example, the story of the women being taken to Perm was credible, don't you think they would have included it as part of the "Fate" of the Romanovs? And please don't hedge by saying that you can't speak for them. Their book speaks for them, and their book clearly, graphically and effectively describes the family as being shot on July 16, 1918. They do not rule out the possibility of a survivor, but I think their description does rule out the idea that anybody went to Perm. 

Quote
The reason I have to depend so much on the outdated book of Summers and Mangold is because they are the only ones who dug into the testimonies which are still in existence and placed them in a book I have read.


And yet you have presumably read Fate of the Romanovs.
 
Quote
As far as I know,  they did not fabricate the testimonies they entered into their book.

As I said in my previous post, no one thinks they "fabricated' anything. There were certainly rumors flying about in the late summer of 1918, and they tracked several of them down. The rumors turned out to be untrue, as rumors frequently do.


Quote
Like I said,  I'll have to let others who know more about AA's life to make comments.


Okay. The descriptions of Anna Andersen's behavior throughout her life were culled from Peter Kurth's book, James Lovell's book, Summers and Mangold's File on the Tsar and several other sources.


Quote
This is just a "out of the box" speculation and needs to be suggested and investigated to see just how "silly" or "impossible" this could have been.


The idea that a major operation was being run by the CHEKA without the knowledge/consent of the Soviet leadership is about as probable as the space alien theory that everyone was nattering on about a few weeks ago.

Quote
I'm not sure how many of you understand how entangled Felik D., the head of the CHEKA's, agents were in Europe.   These agents had worked their way into very high positions even in the British SIS as well as their world of politics.

Lenin and Stalin in those early years had given Felik D. freedom with his agents, including the organizations called TRUST, the Lysma and other revolutionary "cells" [groups].

It was not uncommon for revolutionaries to infiltrate the factories like the one AA, if she was FS,  was working.  

Lenin and Stalin may not have known about  AA and the reason behind the need of creating a false GD Anastasia.


What would the need be to create a false Grand Duchess Anastasia? A false Alexei, a false Nicholas, sorta kinda maybe, but a false Grand Duchess Anastasia?

Quote
Like the woman in  My Fair Lady,  AA  must have had gone through a period of training to become a GD Anastasia claimant.  Why?  There was a great deal a commoner had to learn about being royal, Russian and enough of the various languages (High German, French, Enlgish and Russian) to fool people  who knew the GD.


Again,  I'll have to let others answer this because I don't recall this part of AA's life.


Okay, fine. Then let me tell you: she made mistakes, she mis-identified people, and she was not able to convince several people that had known the real Grand Duchess quite well that she was AN. How difficult was it to learn to "play the part"? I don't know; a lot of this stuff seems to rely upon people's willingness to suspend disbelief.

For example: there are some people that maintain she had the same brilliant blue eyes as the Tsar. Obviously a pretender to be Anastasia would have had to have blue eyes. But from there out, it gets a little murky. Adjectives like "sparkling" or "penetrating" or "expressive" are subjective in application.


Quote
Like I said,  there are always the acceptions.


I agree. I don't think one can make a general statement about Anna Andersen's suicide attempt, if that in fact was what it was.

Quote
I think on one of these threads,  people thought that some of the scars AA had were self inflicted.


I think the idea that she inflicted things like the head wound upon herself has been discredited.

Quote
I don't know.


My suggestions were possible reasons she may have been afraid if she was GD Anastasis  or  FS or AA  (if she was not FS).


Since I'm not sure, yet,  that AA was FS,  then  I really can't respond to your question, accept to say,  whomever she was,  anxiety had to have raised it's ugly head and could have caused all kinds of mental problems,  one of which, I think, was probably depression.

AGRBear


The topic of this thread is "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  I wish you would address the idea that she actually seems to have wanted to be found.

Simon
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 02:17:50 PM
Quote

...[in part]....



Okay. The descriptions of Anna Andersen's behavior throughout her life were culled from Peter Kurth's book, James Lovell's book, Summers and Mangold's File on the Tsar and several other sources.


This is what Elisabeth seems to think.

Quote
Okay, fine. Then let me tell you: she made mistakes, she mis-identified people, and she was not able to convince several people that had known the real Grand Duchess quite well that she was AN. How difficult was it to learn to "play the part"? I don't know; a lot of this stuff seems to rely upon people's willingness to suspend disbelief.

For example: there are some people that maintain she had the same brilliant blue eyes as the Tsar. Obviously a pretender to be Anastasia would have had to have blue eyes. But from there out, it gets a little murky. Adjectives like "sparkling" or "penetrating" or "expressive" are subjective in application.



I agree. I don't think one can make a general statement about Anna Andersen's suicide attempt, if that in fact was what it was.



We've already gone into the subject about AA knowing about the trip GD Anastasia's uncle GD Ernie made into Russia during the war.   I believe he did.  You believe he didn't.   I talked endlessly about the "tiny pillows" carried by the women as they walked down the stairs which was reported in Yurovsky's report and not known otherwise but then we discovered others like Gilliard heard about the pillows.... BUT, they didn't know about the jewels within.  My opinion is that I think AA knew things only the CHEKA knew at that time.  You think this speculation as "silly".  I agree, we disagree.

Quote
The topic of this thread is "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  I wish you would address the idea that she actually seems to have wanted to be found.

Simon


The TOPIC is about "Why was AA afraid to be found?"  No matter who she was, those who know more about her than I will provide us with sources.  Elisabeth has already given us some thoughts.

I assume AA, if AA was NOT  GD Anastasia,  wanted to be found if it was her goal to become claimant.   If she was GD Anastasia, which most of us don't think she was,  then once people believed she was,  then she must have desided that she might as well say she was.  If she was FS and mentally ill and not part of a skeme,  then I think she may have just gone along for the ride and liked where it was taking her but she never achieved being accepted by all.    

It appears AA's  mental state never allowed her to be anything but a woman in constant turmoil.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 26, 2005, 02:33:26 PM
Quote
 I talked endlessly about the "tiny pillows" carried by the women as they walked down the stairs which was reported in Yurovsky's report and not known otherwise but then we discovered others like Gilliard heard about the pillows.... BUT, they didn't know about the jewels within.  My opinion is that I think AA knew things only the CHEKA knew at that time.  You think this speculation as "silly".  I agree, we disagree.


Gilliard knew about the "little pillows" the women carried to the murder room because of the testimony of Pavel Medvedev to White interrogators: "The maid had a pillow in her hands. The daughters brought little pillows with them also." It's curious that neither Yurovsky nor any of the guards whose testimony I've read mentions any jewels sewn into the pillows. I don't know where this story started. Presumably it is not in the Sokolov Report, either (I just checked and can't find it!). So the story of jewels sewn into pillows might actually be a myth, and if AA repeated it then perhaps we've caught her out in another lie.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 02:51:45 PM
I believe the jewels in the pillow was mentioned by one of the shooters...    I can't seem to pull it out of my memory today as to who it was but I do remember it was  about the bullets hitting the little pillows which deflected the bullets and prevented them from striking the back wall.  And,  this was the excuse given why there were too few bullet holes in th wall.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Elisabeth on October 26, 2005, 03:06:03 PM
I don't recall any such quote, Bear. According to testimony, Demidova tried to use the pillow to deflect bayonet blows, not bullets. She was stabbed to death. Apparently the pillow was not an adequate shield.

I'm almost sure I've never come across the story of jewels sewn into Demidova's pillow except in Massie, but he must have got it from somewhere. Was it Gilliard or the Sokolov Report? And if it was true and jewels were actually hidden in the pillow(s), is it possible the Bolsheviks didn't find them and threw the pillow(s) into the pyre with the rest of the IF's belongings that night?

Whatever the truth of the matter, it seems the Cheka did not know what AA supposedly did!!!

Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: AGRBear on October 26, 2005, 03:27:13 PM
I was wrong.  There is nothing in Letemin testimony which tells us that there were jewels in the pillow.

Quote
p. 122 FILE ON THE TSAR by Mangold and Summers.

In Oct of 1918 Judge Sergeyev, the investigator before Sokolov, was asking an ex-guard of the Ipatiev House Mikhail Letemin questions:

>>Letemin had an alibi for the night of 16 July, but said he had been told of the murders when he came on duty next morning.  His informant was Andrei Strekotin, who claimed he and seen the family led into the basement and shot while he was on guard.... Letemin said he had queried the story, point out that there ought to be a large number of bullet holes in the room, which there were not, Strekotin replied:  "Why so many?  The tsarina's maid hid behind a pillow, and lots of bullets went into the pillow."


Still would like to know what kind of   pillow can collect bullets.

It was I who thought that maybe the pillow didn't collect bullets but deflected them because maybe there were jewels in the pillows.

Sorry for not remembering correctly.

Elisabeth said Massie said something about jewels in the pillows?  I'll have to go look.  Maybe, that's where I ....  Well, let me take a look before I say more.

Jewels or no jewels,  we should take this to another thread since this isn't about AA's fears.  Where do you want to continue about the pillow and jewels?

AGRBear





Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 26, 2005, 08:47:01 PM
All books I have about the case, even those that are AGAINST AA's claim , admited that she was extremely afraid to be found, and that she didn't want to do an spectacle of herself, but the opposite. Only Gilliard said that AA was a con artist that wanted to be famous and make money lying about her true identity.

Decaux and Castelot, for example, didn't believe that AA was AN, but rather a poor crazy young woman who really was convinced about her being Anastasia . She seems to have truly feel panic to be found.  She even tried to change her appareance (and with this , she made herself the less similar to AN than ever and closest to FS, for she changed intentionally her hairdo lines and made her lips fuller by brushing them furiously every day) and spoke to a nurse to fly with her to South Africa (my source is Harriet Von Rathlef and Peter Kurth, but Decaux spoke of it in his book too).

If she was Anastasia, it's clear what were her reasons to be afraid; if not, she must have been a mad creature who truly thought she was persecuted. Some mental illness are just like this.

But I don't think she was a con artist who was perfectly aware of what she was doing. She was clearly "pushed" to declare publicaly who she was, and she was used by some people to their political purposes, or simply to make money on her. I think she was more happy living with Clara Peuthert than with Baron Von Kleist or Inspector Grüneberg or Mr. Jaenicke. Just my thoughts. If she was Anastasia, we must easily understand that she would rather like to live unoticed with commoner friends. If she was not, she could have wanted to be treated as if she was a Grand Duchess by commoners and not by noble people who would expect from her that she would act all time as a great lady. Commoners would admire her and provide her with all she wanted to, not having to work, a thing that she avoided all her long life.

So, why should her make publicity of herself? If she was Anastasia this would have been nonsense as well as if she wasn't.  My opinion is that her "friends" pushed her to go on with her claim. She never liked to be photographied and she rarely gave an interview. Only in her late life, she appeared much more before a TV screen , but pushed by John Manahan. She didn't speak much, however...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 26, 2005, 10:24:42 PM
The description of her behavior in Peter Kurth's book has Andersen pointing to pictures of the Imperial Family in magazines at Dalldorf and asking the nurses if they didn't see a resemblance. How is that not wanting to be "found"?
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Annie on October 27, 2005, 08:06:26 AM
I do think there was some reason FS didn't want to be found, the same reasons she must have had when she jumped into the canal. Whatever it was must be a fascinating story we may never know. But as "Anastasia" she did seem to want lots of publicity. If she didn't she wouldn't have had the trial, wouldn't have gone to NYC, wouldn't have posed for all those pics like the parakeet ones.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: Louis_Charles on October 27, 2005, 10:03:41 AM
Quote
I do think there was some reason FS didn't want to be found, the same reasons she must have had when she jumped into the canal. Whatever it was must be a fascinating story we may never know. But as "Anastasia" she did seem to want lots of publicity. If she didn't she wouldn't have had the trial, wouldn't have gone to NYC, wouldn't have posed for all those pics like the parakeet ones.


I hate to be persnickity, but no about the parakeet picture. She actually refused to allow that one to be used. And I don't think that she actually "sought" publicity in the way that a modern celebrity does; after the claim was made it simply came her way as a matter of course.  There were periods of her life when she blipped off the radar and lived quietly until something stirred the pot --- Marcelle Maurette's play Anastasia, for example.

I actually think she found the publicity a bit unnerving, as anyone would, whether a Polish factory worker or a Russian Grand Duchess.

But if Summers and Mangold (to say nothing of Lovell) are to be believed, by the end of her life she found herself in the same trap as so many others who have achieved celebrity status. She needed the attention, and that's why I think she began changing the Story at the end, to keep their attention focused upon her. It's sad. Since the identity of Anastasia Nikolaevna wasn't truly hers, she came to depend upon outside validation to keep herself together. So much of her behavior seems childish to me, and that is one of the clearest indications that her development was arrested --- whoever she was.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: RealAnastasia on October 27, 2005, 07:27:51 PM
Quote
The description of her behavior in Peter Kurth's book has Andersen pointing to pictures of the Imperial Family in magazines at Dalldorf and asking the nurses if they didn't see a resemblance. How is that not wanting to be "found"?



She wanted that someone would know who she was, but not for make publicity on the fact. The proof is that the nurses spoke after the case was known outside Dalldorf. The Patient asked the nurses not to tell other people that she was Anastasia and they did so, until the day that Clara Peuthert burst the news to Von Schwabe.

I consulted the case with a Psychiatrist who said me that all that AA did in Dalldorf was absolutely "normal" in her condition. Of course, if she was Anastasia, she needed to hide, but all human beings also need that someone else knows who she/he really is, to make confidences to them etc. Nobody could lie over and over about his/her personal identity. This is unbearable for all human beings.

AA remained almost a year and a half unnoticed ...But then, Clara Peuthert came to Dalldorf and the troubles started for Anna (And for me, who am insisting about her being Anastasia against almost all the other opinions  :-[ ;D)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Why Was AA Afraid To Be Found?
Post by: stacey on December 04, 2005, 11:23:52 PM
Speaking of psychiatrists--and many of them "examined" AA over the years--I have a degree in psychology (not psychiatry, but.... ::)) and it strikes me more and more forcibly as I read accounts of AA's behavior that she suffered from a psychiatric condition not yet "recognized" during most of her lifetime. It's a condition known as "borderline personality disorder" and it seems to me that she fits the criteria almost perfectly...including the sense of paranoia she often felt. The way she would at first be "close" to someone, and then for reasons they seldom understood would suddenly decide that the erstwhile friends were suddenly her "enemies", the "hysterical" behavior, the lack of a sense of self which could make it so easy for her to assume the personality of another person--these and many other things strike me as typical of some with borderline personality disorder. Depression is common in BPD, as are "suicide attempts", self-injury, wild mood swings...and no, it is NOT any form of "madness", an idea which the psychiatrists who examined AA always rejected (rightly so, in my opinion.) And if she did have BPD, she wouldn't need much of a reason to be fearful and paranoid. It's all a part of the syndrome.