Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Christopher on November 06, 2005, 11:37:30 PM

Title: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Christopher on November 06, 2005, 11:37:30 PM
The daughters of Louis XV deserve their own thread, they were all interesting characters especially Madame Adelaide.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 07, 2005, 12:39:08 PM
The daughters of LouisXV and Queen Marie Lescynska are a great topic for discussion, thanks for starting it! It always amazes me how much genuine familial feelings all the children of LouisXV had for each other and for their parents, what with growing up in the rareified atmosphere of Versailles, but they did, probably because of their mother. (Although Louis XV himself appeared to be a very devoted father, in spite of his many recreational pursuits.)

Madame Louise of France, the youngest daughter, indeed became a nun under the name of Mother Therese de Saint-Augustin of the Discalced Carmelite order. She chose to enter one of the poorest and most penitential Carmelite monasteries in France, that of Saint-Denis, rather than the more fashionable one in Paris. She ran from away from home to join the monastery in order to avoid a big fuss at Court. She later claimed her health improved as a nun for she was very happy there. Marie-Antoinette came to the monastery to give her the veil when Mme. Louise donned the Carmelite habit. When she made her final vows, all the churches were alerted and peeled their bells, spreading to churches in other villages, so that all the bells in France were ringing to celebrate the oblation of the King's daughter.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 07, 2005, 12:58:48 PM
Victoire and Sophie both had odd psychological quirks, perhaps due to having been sent to a convent at a young age. This was an economy measure imposed by Louis XV on the recommendation of Fleury. Adelaide escaped this by pleading with her father to be allowed to remain at court. The younger girls spent ten years at Fontevraud, however. I'm not sure that they were even allowed back for holidays!

Victoire suffered from panic attacks. Sophie was so shy that she might be called agoraphobic. She was frightened of thunderstorms!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 07, 2005, 01:29:39 PM
 Oh, Bell. Madame Louise was raised at the same Benedictine monastery as her sisters  but without the odd quirks. Many people acquire phobias without having ever set foot in a monastery. Being a member of the Bourbon family was enough.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 08, 2005, 12:43:42 PM
Their mother, Queen Marie Lezynscka, was a Polish princess and said to be very pretty when she was young. Louis XV was, by all accounts, quite taken with her in the first years of their marriage. (He was 16 and she was 22 when they were married.) Louis XV himself was very handsome, so it only stands to reason that they would have some attractive children.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: ilyala on November 09, 2005, 06:20:24 AM
he probably would have even without the saints thing. that just hurried things up a little ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 09, 2005, 09:31:33 AM
Yes, he had a wandering eye. Poor Queen Marie, maybe she had a health problem or something, and the holy day thing was just an excuse. (If she did indeed "refuse him" for religious reasons, especially when it against Catholic teaching for a wife to refuse her husband, or vice versa....It almost sounds like something impious people at the Court of Versailles would make up about a devout woman in order to excuse her husband's philandering. Just a speculation on my part....)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: ilyala on November 09, 2005, 09:55:25 AM
yes, after all, she had so many children.... i'm pretty sure she was tired and used any excuse she could... apparently king louis respected her religious nature (in the beginning he admired it... until it became too much) and she took advantage of that
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 09, 2005, 09:56:31 AM
 Yes, Queen Marie really did love her husband and was heartbroken by his many infidelities. She had skulls with beribboned wigs in her room, called "belles-mignonnes" in order to remind herself of the fleetingness of life.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 09, 2005, 10:13:25 AM
Quote
Yes, Queen Marie really did love her husband and was heartbroken by his many infidelities. She had skulls with beribboned wigs in her room, called "belles-mignonnes" in order to remind herself of the fleetingness of life.


This is rather odd behaviour is it not? It sounds a bit like voodoo!
Were the dolls supposed to represent particular departed friends, or perhaps the king's mistresses?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 09, 2005, 10:47:18 AM
Quote

This is rather odd behaviour is it not? It sounds a bit like voodoo!
Were the dolls supposed to represent particular departed friends, or perhaps the king's mistresses?


No, Bell, none of the above, although I agree it sounds odd. It is an ethnic RC thing - like the famous Capuchin church in Rome with all the skeletal decorations. It was just intended as a reminder of death; that the pleasures and troubles of life will all pass away.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 09, 2005, 10:49:30 AM
Quote

No, Bell, none of the above, although I agree it sounds odd. It is an ethnic RC thing - like the famous Capuchin church in Rome with all the skeletal decorations. It was just intended as a reminder of death; that the pleasures and troubles of life will all pass away.


Did other royals have this in their rooms as well, or was it only Marie Leczynska?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 10, 2005, 09:33:57 AM
There is an anecdote about the formidable Mme. Adelaide which shows her tender side, especially towards her neices and nephews. The future Louis XVI, while still Dauphin, was a shy and quiet teenager, and his Tante Adelaide worried about him. She once told him to go to her rooms and run, shout, smash whatever he wanted to, just so that he could express some pent-up emotion. I don't think Louis accepted her offer; instead he worked at his forge in the attic.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 10, 2005, 01:48:13 PM
I find the sisters very entertaining! Weren't they all given unflattering nick names by their father such as "Rag"!!?? Their is a couple of other portraits painted of them in Rome just after they had fled. By the sounds of things, coming from the splendours of Versailles, they didn't enjoy an easy exile.





Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 10, 2005, 02:54:24 PM
They were called Graille, Coche, Chiffe and Loque.

Snip, Pig, Rag and Dud.

Louis XV once embarassed Mme Campan by asking where Coche ("Piggy") was. Afterwards it was explained to her that this was his name for Mme Victoire.

I'm pretty sure that Louise was "Loque". I think Adelaide was "Graille" and Sophie was "Chiffe".

Adelaide and Victoire were quite comfortable in Rome (comfortable enough to have Vigée Lebrun come and paint their portraits). Eventually they were forced to leave by the revolutionary armies. They had to move around quite a bit, and by the time of their deaths (1799 and 1800), they were in quite reduced circumstances.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 11:46:25 AM
Hey, did Mme Adelaide have a happy life? I got the impression she was rather a spiteful, bitter old maid who coined the nickname " L'Autrichienne ". Pretended to be Marie Antoinettes friend when in fact she was using her and damaged MA's reputation at court.

Going into exile can't have been a happy experience either.  :(
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 12, 2005, 12:17:32 PM
Quote
Hey, did Mme Adelaide have a happy life? I got the impression she was rather a spiteful, bitter old maid who coined the nickname " L'Autrichienne ". Pretended to be Marie Antoinettes friend when in fact she was using her and damaged MA's reputation at court.

 


I've been trying to correct this commonly held view with my posts about Adelaide!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 12:31:37 PM
Do you not think Mme Adelaide was like that?  :). Practically all the books describe her as a dissapointed old maid  :(. Thats certainly the impression I get.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 12, 2005, 01:01:22 PM
Quote
Do you not think Mme Adelaide was like that?  :). Practically all the books describe her as a dissapointed old maid  :(. Thats certainly the impression I get.



Which books?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 12, 2005, 01:01:33 PM
Mme Adelaide reminds me of an "old maid" auntie of mine. She had a full and interesting life of travel, complete with beautiful furniture, and beautiful clothes; an accomplished, pretty and educated lady with a dazzling career (no she was not a courtesan). She could be charming, witty, fun at a party, devoted to her neices and nephews. However, that aged auntie of mine had/has an acerbic tongue; she does not mince words and aims for the jugular when she does not approve of one's behavior. She has family members in terror over what she will say next; she can reduce people to tears with a glance. That is kind of how I envision Mme Adelaide.... I may be wrong (if I am Bell will correct me.) ;)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 01:04:07 PM
Practically all of them bell  :)

I know what you mean Elena, almost like Victoria of Wales, another spinister with an acerbic tongue apparently  :)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 12, 2005, 01:09:30 PM
Quote
Practically all of them bell  :)

I know what you mean Elena, almost like Victoria of Wales, another spinister with an acerbic tongue apparently  :)


I've found that French sources have generally a more favourable line on Mme Adelaide, even things like the guidebook to Versailles!

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 01:13:14 PM
Thats very interesting  :). All the biographers say what a bad influence the Mesdames were as well as there bad behaviour towards Madame du Barry. Marie Antoinettes mother once wrote they were full of virtue but even she later ate those words.

Maybe Adelaide has been misrepresented all this time?  :)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 12, 2005, 01:38:39 PM
Quote
Thats very interesting  :). All the biographers say what a bad influence the Mesdames were as well as there bad behaviour towards Madame du Barry. Marie Antoinettes mother once wrote they were full of virtue but even she later ate those words.

Maybe Adelaide has been misrepresented all this time?  :)


Mesdames were really Marie Antoinette's multiple "mothers in law". They took charge of their brother's children after his death in 1765 as Marie Josèphe withdrew into herself (and died in 1767).

So it's not surprising there was conflict, particularly as Marie Antoinette was (in the early days) immature and spoilt. I'm sure the aunts resented her for being young and pretty as well ! It happens in a lot of families. :)

However as I keep saying, Mme Adelaide was also a very cultivated and energetic person!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 01:46:04 PM
I agree, but she was anti austrian too and I think she wasn't best pleased when MA arrived and desplaced her from her position as first lady at court, since her sister in laws death.

I agree she was probably energetic but with so much time there hands, there thoughts turned to mischief.
It was mainly due to Madame Adelaide that MA ignored Madame du Barry when she first arrived in France, which damaged her reputation.  :) :)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 12, 2005, 01:53:12 PM
Quote
I agree, but she was anti austrian too and I think she wasn't best pleased when MA arrived and desplaced her from her position as first lady at court, since her sister in laws death.

I agree she was probably energetic but with so much time there hands, there thoughts turned to mischief.
It was mainly due to Madame Adelaide that MA ignored Madame du Barry when she first arrived in France, which damaged her reputation.  :) :)


Yes, this is sort of true. Mme Adelaide was playing for "her team" as was the Dubarry. Marie Antoinette was very slow to pick up on these hard facts of life!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 12, 2005, 05:39:30 PM
IMO, too much is made of the whole episode of MMe Adelaide influencing Marie-Antoinette against Mme du Barry. I think it is the kind of thing that happened anytime a foreign princess arrived at a strange court and was still learning the ropes. It was easy for a young girl to be manipulated by the various factions at a court where she was a newcomer, and I am sure it happened to others as well as to M-A. Those events early in her marriage are highlighted only because of the debacles which came later in her life. If the Revolution had not happened, it would have been one more court drama among thousands played out on a daily basis. Some of the things which happened  to M-A early on contributed to eroding away at her reputation but others did not. True, Mme Adelaide should have guided her in a more loving fashion, but Mme Adelaide probably thought she was doing right by telling Antoinette not to speak to the putain. If anything the incident emphasizes M-A's virtue in not wanting to tolerate a courtesan in her presence, although this was probably more due to her adolescent prudery and dislike of Du Barry than strong moral fiber, which was still being cultivated.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 21, 2005, 12:10:58 PM
The marriage of M-A was arranged by La Pompadour before she died. Mme Adelaide detested La Pompadour even more than she did Mme Du Barry, so it got M-A off to bad start with the aunts. Also, Austria and the Habsburgs were the traditional enemy of the Bourbons and France. M-A would have been disliked for her family and nationality alone.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 21, 2005, 12:17:56 PM
Mme. Adelaide also blamed Austria for France's humiliation in the Seven Years War, called The French and Indian War in the USA, in which France lost Canada. She blamed Mme Pompadour for it as well, because she had been advising Louis XV at the time.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Marc on December 11, 2005, 07:06:37 AM
There is an interesting story in the memoires of Countess de Boigne!It is said that the King Louis XV entered Madame Adelaide's bedchamber to inform her that Madame Louise had left in the nignt...When she heard this Madame Adelaide's first cry was:''WITH WHOM''?  ;)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 11, 2005, 08:19:47 AM
Quote
There is an interesting story in the memoires of Countess de Boigne!It is said that the King Louis XV entered Madame Adelaide's bedchamber to inform her that Madame Louise had left in the nignt...When she heard this Madame Adelaide's first cry was:''WITH WHOM''?  ;)


;D

According to Campan, Mme Adelaide was furious with her father for keeping Louise's plan of running off to the convent a secret, and only telling her when Louise had gone!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on December 18, 2005, 12:26:55 PM
Quote
There is an interesting story in the memoires of Countess de Boigne!It is said that the King Louis XV entered Madame Adelaide's bedchamber to inform her that Madame Louise had left in the nignt...When she heard this Madame Adelaide's first cry was:''WITH WHOM''?  ;)


That's really funny! (Mme de Boigne is an inexhaustible source of court gossip.)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 20, 2005, 06:44:25 AM
I think the author Stanley Loomis in his good book on Madame du Barry sums up the mesdames well!!.......

"Mesdames made up in the consequence of their birth for what they had missed in the way of domestic felicity, consoling themselves with the thought that Daughter of France was a rank higher than any that could possibly come to them by marriage on this earth. They lived in semi-retirement in vast connecting apartments at Versailles and here, dominated by the elder, Madame Adelaide, they brooded over ineffectual plots which rarely hatched. Madame Adelaide was a sour, thin-beaked old maid, immensly proud and of haughty aspect, who was filled with disgust by the unseemly conduct of her father, the King. She never dared confront His Majesty directly with her distaste, but attacked obliquely and in secret. In the privacy of their chambers, the sisters continually stirred up a brew of mischief, never realising that their drops of poison were eating into the foundations of the very edifice which supported them. Adelaide and Victoire would live to see the consequences of their malice. They would barely escape the guillotine, leaving Paris in 1791 in the dead of night on the pretext of a pious pilgrimage to Rome. In Rome, under the protection of the Holy Father, they lived in exile, praying to God that He spit down flames of vengence to destroy the monsters of the revolution, never reflecting that they themselves had been among the first to intrigue against the monarchy"

Still you can't help liking them!  ;D What where their thoughts on the executions of Louis, Antoinette and Elisabeth? do any of their letters survive? :)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 20, 2005, 11:07:53 AM
Quote
I think the author Stanley Loomis in his good book on Madame du Barry sums up the mesdames well!!.......

"Mesdames made up in the consequence of their birth for what they had missed in the way of domestic felicity, consoling themselves with the thought that Daughter of France was a rank higher than any that could possibly come to them by marriage on this earth. They lived in semi-retirement in vast connecting apartments at Versailles and here, dominated by the elder, Madame Adelaide, they brooded over ineffectual plots which rarely hatched. Madame Adelaide was a sour, thin-beaked old maid, immensly proud and of haughty aspect, who was filled with disgust by the unseemly conduct of her father, the King. She never dared confront His Majesty directly with her distaste, but attacked obliquely and in secret. In the privacy of their chambers, the sisters continually stirred up a brew of mischief, never realising that their drops of poison were eating into the foundations of the very edifice which supported them. Adelaide and Victoire would live to see the consequences of their malice. They would barely escape the guillotine, leaving Paris in 1791 in the dead of night on the pretext of a pious pilgrimage to Rome. In Rome, under the protection of the Holy Father, they lived in exile, praying to God that He spit down flames of vengence to destroy the monsters of the revolution, never reflecting that they themselves had been among the first to intrigue against the monarchy"

Still you can't help liking them!  ;D What where their thoughts on the executions of Louis, Antoinette and Elisabeth? do any of their letters survive? :)


With all respect to Stanley Loomis, this is a bit simplistic.
As I've tried to point out on this thread, each of the sisters had different characters, shaped by the different ways in which they were brought up. Their political activities were not entirely frivolous, although they were ultimately ineffectual.

Adelaide and Victoire moved out (pushed out?) of Versailles in the 1780s into their own chateau of Bellevue, where (like Marie Antoinette) they had a model farm.

I don't think they fled in the dead of night as Loomis says. They were allowed to leave by the National Assembly, and were accompanied by a considerable entourage - it wasn't like the flight to Varennes a few months later.

Adelaide expressed her view of the king's mistresses quite openly. She spent the 1750s in alliance with the Dauphin opposed to the Pompadour's policies. When told of Louise's departure she may have let slip the "who with?" barb, but Campan recalls that she scolded the king loudly for not having told her of Louise's intentions.

Loomis is famous for poor research unfortunately. He didn't have access to the internet like I do!

About the executions - of course they were horrified!
Vigée Lebrun painted Adelaide and Victoire in Rome at the time that the royal family were trying to escape France, and recalled how Victoire suddenly burst in joyfully with the (premature) news that the king had reached safety!





Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 20, 2005, 01:15:48 PM
Very interesting thanks Bell!!

To be honest by many contemporary accounts they don't sound like people you would want to be friends with.  :)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 20, 2005, 01:56:52 PM
Quote
Very interesting thanks Bell!!

To be honest by many contemporary accounts they don't sound like people you would want to be friends with.  :)


I think Victoire would have been all right on her own. Mme Campan seemed to like her well enough.

She was quite religious, and took the fasting days very seriously in spite of being very fond of good food. Campan reports that she made her cook hold the fowl over a strainer for a bit to drain off the fat: if less than a certain amount of fat came off the fowl would be judged to be not "gras" - so Victoire could happily indulge.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 21, 2005, 06:01:52 AM
Yes i ment you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of them!! Thats very interesting thanks Bell. What a sad end to a life so used to splender! It must have been awful for them.

I wonder why Maria Carolina was not particularly friendly? I know she could be funny at times.

They must have been devastated to hear of the deaths of Louis and Elisabeth. Did they keep in contact with Clothide in Sardinia? Perhaps they could have gone their. I remember reading Clothide wanted to get Elisabeth over.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 21, 2005, 06:13:59 AM
Madame Victoire in 1791
(http://www.batguano.com/Victoire.jpg)


Madame Adelaide in 1791
(http://www.batguano.com/VLBLabilleGerard.jpg)

Both painted by Madame Le Brun while their sisters where in exile in Rome.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 21, 2005, 06:39:00 AM
Quote
Yes i ment you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of them!! Thats very interesting thanks Bell. What a sad end to a life so used to splender! It must have been awful for them.

I wonder why Maria Carolina was not particularly friendly? I know she could be funny at times.

They must have been devastated to hear of the deaths of Louis and Elisabeth. Did they keep in contact with Clothide in Sardinia? Perhaps they could have gone their. I remember reading Clothide wanted to get Elisabeth over.


I expect Maria Carolina had heard about them from Marie Antoinette, maybe she blamed their rumour mongering for what had happened to her sister. Also Maria Carolina (like Marie Antoinette) wasn't so reactionary and conservative as Mesdames were. She later became much more reactionary though!

I don't know about Clothilde. She was in Sardinia at this point, and Savoy had been annexed by France. I don't know why Adelaide and Victoire didn't go there - maybe they thought it was too uncivilised (goats and pirates!).

Update: Clothilde's husband was forced to abdicate his mainland territories and retire to Sardinia in the same month (December 1798) that Mesdames were obliged to leave Naples.

Thanks for posting the pics!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 21, 2005, 06:58:50 AM
Thanks for info bell. It's nice their bodies were brought back to France to lie in St Denis. Maybe they could even have joined the suites of the Comte de Artois or Provence.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 21, 2005, 07:56:07 AM
Quote
Thanks for info bell. It's nice their bodies were brought back to France to lie in St Denis. Maybe they could even have joined the suites of the Comte de Artois or Provence.


This would have been difficult: the Comte d'Artois was in London if not already in Scotland. The Comte de Provence was in Mittau (now Latvia!), as guest of the Tsar, who asked him to leave the following year.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on December 29, 2005, 02:26:58 PM
Maria Carolina wrote them a letter though, when the royal family was evacuated from Naples (courtesy of Lord Nelson). She said that Adelaide and Victoire would be welcome to join them in Sicily, if they could find a way of getting there.

The problem was that Naples was in complete chaos - it was worse than Paris in the September massacres. The lazzaroni who were the Neapolitan version of the sans culottes, but who were loyal to the royal family, were busy massacring anyone with republican sympathies. Mesdames decided the best way would be to go over the mountains to the Adriatic where they get a boat to Sicily. After many adventures they ended up being protected by a Russian general who took them to Corfu (Tsar Paul luckily remembered his stay at Versailles in the 1780s as Comte du Nord!). By this time there were no boats to Sicily so they took up an offer from the Austrian Emperor to go to Trieste.

Maria Carolina had a terrible journey to Sicily during which her youngest son took ill and died.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on December 31, 2005, 12:52:22 PM
Goodness! I never heard this anecdote. I sometimes wonder where they all would have been without crazy Tsar Paul. It is a good thing that Louis, Antoinette and especially little Madame Royale were so kind to him when he visited Versailles. (Recall the story of how little Madame Royale climbed on the mercurial Tsar's lap and said,"You are a nice man. I like you. Someday, I will come and visit you." The innocent childhood gesture touched the Tsar so much that many people think that is why he was later so kind to the exiled Bourbons.)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on January 30, 2006, 11:26:28 AM
madame Adelaide

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/adelaide.jpg)

Madame Victoire

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/victoire1.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/victoire.jpg)

 Sorry if theses pictures were already posted but I cannot see the ones posted in the first pages!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 07, 2006, 11:08:51 AM
Was she known as Queen Marie or Queen Maria in France?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 07, 2006, 11:12:54 AM
The french version will be Marie instead of Maria.  In polish, german, russian it will be Maria, but not in french as far as I know.  Where are all our french members?

Also Marie was fluent in 6 languages: polish, german, french, italian, swedish and latin.  Quite something, don't you think?  Not for the faint hearted!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 07, 2006, 11:21:14 AM
Thanks. All those languages - certainly an achievement! Was there a political treaty included in her marriage?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 07, 2006, 11:44:19 AM
That was the whole thing.  Her marriage was one where no political treaty was involved as France at that time was caught in a situation where they did not want to lean over one way or another, so the neutral choice of the daughter of the deposed Polish monarch was a "safe" choice.

Mind you the Leczinski family can trace their family line back to the X'th century!  One of the noblest Polish families.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 11:58:28 AM
She was an etiquette lover!!!!

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/mairelezcinskkaparNattier.jpg)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/MarieLescinshka.jpg)

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 12:03:10 PM
and this one painted by Louis Tocque currently at the Louvres.

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Marie_lezcinska_reine_de_France.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 07, 2006, 12:37:08 PM
Thanks for the pictures Sissi.  Please post some more, as well as busts if you can find!  :)

Although she was not pretty by conventional standards she had an excellent upbringing, carried herself very well and was very good at dancing.  All good traits for a queen.  Her husband certainly kept her very busy with having babies the first ten or so years of their marriage, and yes, he was really in love with her from first sight.  Can anyone find the painting that was initially sent to the French Court when one of the other ducs were interested in marrying her?  It was either the Duc de Bourbon or the Duc de Bourgogne.  Then of course the King got first pick at the cherry.  ;D
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 01:37:46 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/marie_leczinska23k.jpg)

Here is anothe on dear Pers
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 02:06:07 PM
I know you said bust but I found this plate from the manufacture de Sevres with a portrait of the queen!! ;D

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/sevres.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 02:16:55 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/marie-leszczynska-2-sized.jpg)

She looks atractive in this one!!! !


(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/leszczynska_200.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Marc on March 09, 2006, 07:35:03 AM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/Opalinska.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 09, 2006, 08:05:51 AM
Marie's father had a long life didn't he - he lived to be 88! As far as I know, Marie's ancestry - I traced to the 1550s - is exclusively Polish.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 09, 2006, 08:12:21 AM
According to this book I'm reading, it goes back to the 10th century.  It is a series of books called "Les Reines de France", the specific one being about ML, I think the author is Guy de Rochefaucould (sic).
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 09, 2006, 09:15:03 AM
Didn't Louis XV bestow honours on her father, like making him a French duke of something?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on March 09, 2006, 11:02:02 AM
Stanislas Leczinski became Duc de Lorraine as part of a deal between Louis XV and the Austrians.  Franz Stephan of Lorraine had to give up his dukedom to France as the price for becoming the husband of Maria Theresa and thus eventually Holy Roman Emperor - he was extremely upset by this, but gave in and that is when the family became that of Habsburg-Lorraine. The duchy of Lorraine was absorbed at the death of Stanislas into the kingdom of France.  

Stanislas established his own little court at Nancy and enjoyed himself very much, with his mistresses to keep things jolly and distinguished visitors such as Voltaire to add a bit of class.  He wasn't very pious and although he had a comforting correspondence with his daughter, he maintained she was the only person he knew who was duller than his wife.  He was over the moon when it was proposed that his daughter would be Queen of France and rushed in to her with such a look of joy that she cried "What has happened?  Are you going, as King, to Poland?" to which he replied, "No, no, you are going, as Queen, to France!"
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 01:01:27 PM
The Father

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Stanislaw_Leszczynski1.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 01:03:55 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/stanislas_2.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 01:04:28 PM
(http://www.visitvoltaire.com/images/stanislas_leszczynski20k.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 01:07:18 PM
Her mother Katherine Opalinski

(http://perso.wanadoo.fr/stanislas/stanislas/photos-stanislas-histoire/opalinska-p-mignot_small.jpg)

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 02:47:33 PM
Around 1699

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/stanislaus20leszczynski.jpg)

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 02:54:25 PM
in 1711


(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/stanislas20leszczynsk201711i.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 02:59:21 PM
Her oldest sister Ana who died young

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/anna20leszczynska.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 03:06:01 PM
This is I THINK the portrait made for the duc de Bourbon when she was a possible bride!!

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/leszczynska.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 03:36:15 PM
The Prince Charming at 15!
He looks fabulous I think!!! ;D ;)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/louisXVa15ans.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 09, 2006, 03:37:51 PM
His hair looks a strange colour for 15.  ;D ;D And those lips are suspiciously red! ;)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on March 10, 2006, 03:24:38 AM
Quote
His hair looks a strange colour for 15.    And those lips are suspiciously red!


He would have worn grey powder in his hair - the latest fashion.  The lips would probably have been the artist's fancy, Louis XV was never known to have worn rouge.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 14, 2006, 06:02:05 AM
ML's favourite child was the Duc d'Anjou, who died very young.  The poor child was sickly and some of the women attending him, being very superstitious, gave him the earth from the Saint Medard cemetery to eat, mixed into his food.  It came from the grave of a saintly person.  After the child's death, when the doctors opened up the body, they found a lot of earth in his intestines.  It was a mystery as the child did not go into the garden and there was none in his bedroom.  They could not understand how he ingested such a large quantity of earth.  Only for Marie Leczinska to find out with horror that her child has been given the earth from the Saint Medard cemetary!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 15, 2006, 09:01:45 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/MarieLenpieds.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 15, 2006, 09:02:50 AM
With the Dauphin

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/MarieLetledauphin.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Sissi on March 15, 2006, 09:05:27 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/MaireL.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 16, 2006, 04:40:39 AM
Quote
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/MaireL.jpg)


This is an interesting one as it's a copy of the portrait of Louis' mother Marie Adelaide on the Marie Adelaide thread.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on March 16, 2006, 11:56:26 AM
I wonder whether it was just painted in a similar style, or that the painting of ML was basically just done with a sketch of her features as the basis, and that the rest all fake?  You're right they are VERY similar.  Even the page boy carrying the train looks the same!
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: REMI on October 16, 2008, 11:33:13 AM
Louis XV had given nicknames to his daughters. Thus Elisabeth called "Babette"; Adélaïde, "Loque";   Victoire, "Coche"; Sophie, "Graille"; Louise, "Chiffe"....Funny too!

REMI
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Mari on October 17, 2008, 01:03:12 AM
Somewhere I have read the reason behind the nicknames. I know that coche is couch or bed and suppose this to be a joke on laziness. Bearne tells us that a writer of the period stated that Louis XV was not an unkind Father. He loved his Daughters but is was utterly selfish. When they were present he was a loving Father who was affectionate and tender and when they were out of sight he never thought of them.   Loved them like a Bourgeois is one phrase used.

http://books.google.com/books?id=r0QQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA240&dq=madame+adelaid+by+bearne&ei=zaV0SL_CNY_-sQP_tMTTCQ#PPA156,M1

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: REMI on October 17, 2008, 03:46:19 AM
Louis XV gave the nickname Coche to Victoire  because she was a very stout woman... like a coche!
(In english, coche=sow)

REMI
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Mari on October 17, 2008, 02:35:31 PM
Thanks REMI I looked in my notes and I could not find it anywhere. I tried to go into the Dictionary and that is the definition I got. What do some of the other nicknames mean?
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: REMI on October 18, 2008, 08:23:41 AM
Graille means "corneille" in old french (corneille= crow in english)
Madame Sophie was nicknamed "Graille" because her voice was shrill and sounds like a crow!
I don't know why Louis XV nicknamed Madame Adélaïde "Loque" and Madame Louise "Chiffe"...These two nicknames are not pleasant at all...They mean...old rags!

REMI
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 21, 2008, 07:37:58 AM
Quote
Bearne tells us that a writer of the period stated that Louis XV was not an unkind Father. He loved his Daughters but is was utterly selfish. When they were present he was a loving Father who was affectionate and tender and when they were out of sight he never thought of them.   Loved them like a Bourgeois is one phrase used.

Part of the judgement of being bourgeois was because of the nicknames he gave them.  It was considered incredibly middle-class. 

It's hard to know whether the 'selfish father' view is justified or not.  Louis XV was brought up to be the centre of his universe, and it's hard to know how any of us would be if we were in the same position - from whom would we learn sensitivity when no one teaches us to recognise it or shows displeasure when we withhold it?  He was quite indulgent to his daughters, but they were naturally opposed to his mistresses and it's hard to see how these women, who did not appear to share many of his interests or tastes, could compete for his time with women like Madame de Pompadour.  Also, in many ways they actively worked to undermine their father - for the most virtuous of reasons, of course.  For example, they worked on Marie Antoinette to set her against the reigning mistress, Madame du Barry, which put her very dangerously in opposition to Louis XV, and worse, in opposition to Madame du Barry.  It's perhaps not entirely surporising that Louis XV tended to look elsewhere than his family for daily companionship and amusement.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Mari on October 21, 2008, 10:03:19 PM
Bearne in her statement of selfish love gives many instances.  "Indulgent while there... but out of sight out of mind" is her qualifier. So out of sight, We might look at the fact the four younger daughters were sent to the Abbey Fontevrault Religious Convent in Anjou at the age of four, three, two, and one. Their Father did not trouble to come and see them off. Although treated with great honor and kindness... there was also the fact that  Madames Victoire and Sophie used to attribute their later terrors to the ill chosen punishments chosen for them such as repeating their evening prayers in the Vaults where the Nuns were buried. Their Education was shamefully neglected to the point that Madame Louise only just knew the alphabet and could barely read. And for the next twelve years they were not visited, even when the eight year old, Madame Felicite died of small pox. Comparing that to the care and judgement of Louis XIV and Mme de Maintenon in the strictness of the regulation, the wise judgement of the People placed over them, the anxious affection, the constant interest in which they superintended the details of the Children of France's life and compare to the neglect, indifference and folly of Louis XV over his children.

 We might also look at the elder Daughters who held their first Ball by March 30, 1737 not to other Children but to the Court Circle.  They were admitted to the formal suppers of the King, accompanied the Court to Marly even joining in the cavagnole at night, Ladies of the Court were presented to them, they received foreign Princes and Ambassadors at an age when they should have been playing with dolls according to M. de Barthelemy. "His young Daughters were constantly to be seen at the Royal Box at the Opera, in the Royal Carriages on Hunting Parties with the King's Mistresses." M. de Barthelemy continues "one recognizes the thoughtlessness of his character,his want of any moral sense, his indifference to or ignorance of the most ordinary convenances.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 22, 2008, 04:04:35 AM
I think one should be careful of accepting either the 19th century morality of Mrs Bearne or that of l'abbe Barthelemy.  Growing up at a convent was pretty standard for aristocratic young women at the time, it was only unusual for royal girls to go there - and it was done at the urging of Cardinal Fleury, to save the huge expense of keeping the individual households for what was a large family of girls for those days, not out of their father's indifference.  The comparison with Madame de Maintenon is hardly valid - the comparison must be with Louis XIV, not a woman of modest birth who was charged with bringing up his bastards and later became his mistress, and later still, his wife.  How could Louis XV be expected to model himself on her?  Louis XIV was hardly a model of parental concern, and was demonstrably extremely selfish in his relationship even with his beloved Marie Adelaide, Louis XV's mother, insisting she travel when pregnant and causing her to have a miscarriage.  While at Fontevrault the princesses were hardly neglected - their regime might have been misguided but it was not neglectful.  (And by the way, Madame de Maintenon lost several of the royal bastards under her charge through illness - despite that anxious care).  As for the court life of his daughters, it is difficult to see how it differed from the life of Marie Adelaide, or Louis XIV's daughters at their court debuts - and marriages at very early ages. 

I think it is actually quite true that Louis XV was a selfish father, but for his times, not especially selfish compared to anyone else of his status and upbringing.  Both Mrs Bearne and l'abbe Barthelemy were coming from the strong anti-Louis XV angle, discerning a decline in moral standards which would eventually lead to the serious problems of the French state (for l'abbe Barthelemy) and the revolution (for Mrs Bearne), which was epitomised by Louis XV's personal relationships - i.e., his purported indifference to his virtuous wife and children, and his greater affection for his mistresses.   Essentially they were attempts to define the French royal family as a microcosm of the French state.  All history is of course filtered through our own sensibilities, but I think we should be wary of filtering them through those of the 18th and 19th centuries.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 06, 2009, 01:35:00 PM
I think that in that days the beauty wasn't one of the most important things for be choosen the wife
of a royal (but of course that was important) I think that wealth or other kind of things were even more
important for them
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 07, 2009, 03:21:09 AM
Quote
I think that wealth or other kind of things were even more
important for them

I think it was the 'other kinds of things', i.e. politics, which were most important in the marriage of Louis XV - Maria Leszczynska was plain, poor and barely royal.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2009, 07:19:14 AM
But was healthy...
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 07, 2009, 04:31:38 PM
However, she only had two sons, one of whom died in infancy, and as far as fertility goes, her daughters didn't count as they could not inherit the throne.  Indeed, when her daughter-in-law died in childbirth, her son the Dauphin had to be rushed into a second marriage as fast as possible although he was by no means ready, as the royal line was dangerously close to extinction.  Her second daughter-in-law, Maria Josefa of Saxony, was much more satisfactory because she had 4 sons, of whom 3 survived to adulthood.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 07, 2009, 07:08:31 PM
Yes, wealthy was important, but sometimes fertility didn't help several royal couples
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 12, 2009, 01:24:35 PM
Yes, wealthy was important, but sometimes fertility didn't help several royal couples
this is truee..especially in france, as noted Louis XV and la bonne reine Marie had more daughters then sons, a 'potential' bad situation in France where they used to follow the [i my opinion] unfair Salic Law! :O
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 14, 2009, 07:11:35 PM
Do you know if existed "love" between Marie L. and Louis XV? I doubt so. Just political interests
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: King François X on October 14, 2009, 07:19:09 PM
I personally think it was more of a friendship than love, they did have an affection for eacthother maybe, but not love unfortunately. If Louis did love her, he probably wouldn't of had that many mistresses.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 14, 2009, 07:25:42 PM
I agree, perhaps the fact that several kings of different places have lots of mistresses
was a form to prove that the majority of that marriages just were related to politic
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 16, 2009, 03:08:24 AM
Marriage in the eighteenth century is always a difficult concept to grasp in our own times because it is so very different.  You have to keep in mind all the time that the choice of a partner was a complex affair of family, money, property, politics, and bloodlines.  Even at the very poor level these considerations were important, and at the other end of the scale, for royalty they were paramount.  While the mutual attraction of parties was agreed to be important, since a couple who loathed each other were not likely to produce an effective partnership or family, provided there was nothing absolutely wrong with your spouse you were supposed to get on with it and make the best of things.  And indeed, most managed it. 

Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Mari on October 16, 2009, 07:58:21 PM
Quote
She learned her lesson, was submissive and dutiful, but when she ceased to want to sleep with him he lost interest in her entirely.
Quote

Somewhere I read that her last pregnancy almost killed her and that the Doctor told her to get pregnant again would be her death. Does anyone else know this in other sources?
I have this down as a source:
Zieliński, Ryszard (1978). Polka na francuskim tronie. Czytelnik.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: CountessKate on October 17, 2009, 06:19:40 AM
Quote
Somewhere I read that her last pregnancy almost killed her and that the Doctor told her to get pregnant again would be her death. Does anyone else know this in other sources?
I have this down as a source:
Zieliński, Ryszard (1978). Polka na francuskim tronie. Czytelnik.

In 'La reine et la favorite' Simone Bertiere also suggests that as a reason why Marie Leszczynska basically shut the door in Louis XV's face in 1737 - i.e. the doctors had told her that her next pregnancy would be the death of her, but gives no references for it.   She also wrote that it was unlikely that Marie actually said "Toujours coucher, toujours accoucher!" ("always going to bed, always being brought to bed") as she felt it was not the sort of thing a woman of her personality would say.   

However, if the doctors had genuinely given her advice to have no further children, it would not have been something Louis XV and his whole court would not have known about - the Queen's pregnancies were a matter of state, and Versailles was not the sort of place you could keep information like that to yourself - the King would have been told, Marie's servants and Ladies in Waiting would have known, they would have told their husbands, and so it would have gone on - but diarists like the Duc de luynes makes no mention of such a thing happening.  And I cannot see any doctor in his right mind explaining to the King of France (who only had one son and heir after the death of the duc d'Anjou) that the Queen shouldn't do her duty and produce another son because it might kill her (especially since she'd not died herself had a healthy girl in her last pregnancy - was medical knowledge really that good in the eighteenth century?).  They might advise that it would be better to wait a while - but again, there is no evidence that they did this, and it would be a state matter of such importance it wouldn't have been secret.  Everyone knew when the King went to sleep with the Queen (or was turned away) - how could they not know if a doctor had advised her to shun the royal marital bed?

I have always thought that after 11 pregnancies in 10 years, Marie Leszczynska was utterly fed up with the whole business, and sex was not so alluring that she wanted to put up with the inevitable consequences again (even if she didn't actually say "Toujours coucher, toujours accoucher!").   She might also have been frightened - she was getting older, and her pregnancies weren't getting easier.   She might well have feared the outcome of further pregnancies.  But in the eighteenth century, and with the dynasty so close to extinction - if the Dauphin had died, Louis XV's next heirs were the princes of the house of Orleans - a direct refusal to have more children would have been seen as a dereliction of duty.  Hence the excuse she had used all along - that she would not sleep with the King on major saints' days - became extended to minor saints' days, until he got the message.   But I think by then, when he finally took off and didn't return, the marriage was in a rocky way (the Comtesse de Mailly had been his mistress for years albeit unofficially, as it were).  Louis XV was 27, very vigorous, loved hunting and intimate supper parties with his friends, and was keen on sex.  Marie Leszczynska was 34, exhausted with childbearing, not particularly keen on sex (or at least, afraid of the consequences), was interested in improving books and didn't seem to have any friends in common with her husband.  Not really a surprise that it all fell apart when the last tie, of sexual intimacy, was severed.  In this last I believe that Marie Leszczynska for once took the initiative - though I can see some writers prefer to believe that a woman so dutiful must have had some greater reason for refusing to sleep with her husband other than exhaustion and fear of constant childbirth. 
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Mari on November 12, 2009, 01:38:23 AM
I haven't come across one on Queen Marie Leczinska so I am interested in the name of the Biography myself. I thought perhaps they had gotten it confused with Pompadour. But yes, it is looking like there were an awful lot of fortune tellers floating around.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: pers on November 12, 2009, 11:34:37 AM
Here is the info on the biography:

Marie Leczinska, femme de Louis XV (1703 - 1768).
La Rochefoucauld, Gabriel de
(Montracol, ., France)
Book Description: Monaco : Les Livres merveilleux, collection Les Reines de France, 1943, 263 p. Bibliographie. Biographie de Marie Leszczynska (1703-1768), princesse de Pologne et reine de France de 1725 à sa mort.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: violetta on November 12, 2009, 05:04:37 PM
I believe that the Queen`s maiden name was LESZCZYNSKA. not Leczinska. This is the original spelling of her family name. it is pronounced LE SH CH Y N` SKA.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 13, 2010, 08:47:09 PM
Franz Stephan of Lorraine ceding Lorraine to her father in return for Tuscany really is an interesting parallell to the "Great Exchange" effected by the Treaty of Tsarskoe Selo a few decades later, whereby Catherine the Great ceded her late husband's ancestral Duchy of Holstein-Gottorp to the King of Denmark in return for Oldenburg, which she passed on to a junior line of her husband's family. Both fascinating examples of peaceful dynastic territorial arrondissement.


I believe that the Queen`s maiden name was LESZCZYNSKA. not Leczinska. This is the original spelling of her family name. it is pronounced LE SH CH Y N` SKA.

Yes, it was Leszczyńska, which I gather strictly is pronounced /l ɛ ʂ ʈ͡ʂ ɨ ɲ s k a/ (a bit more loosely transscribed as /l ɛ ʃ t͡ʃ i ɲ s k a/), approximately Lèche-tchigne-ska in French orthography.
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 31, 2010, 03:17:34 PM
The Queen
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaLeszczynska.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaFrance.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 06, 2010, 01:47:48 PM
As a girl with family
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/MariaFamily.jpg)
Horseback
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/PolishQueen.jpg)
The Queen
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/Lescinska.jpg)
Title: Re: King Louis XV and his family
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 06, 2010, 01:48:12 PM
Posted before, but now full
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/FullNattier.jpg)