Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Balkan Royal Families => Topic started by: anabel on November 13, 2005, 06:52:34 AM

Title: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: anabel on November 13, 2005, 06:52:34 AM
Hi!

First of all, I would like to appologize to you Laurra, I really used harsh words, but I easily become passionate at this topic! ;) Well, maybe we could use this tread to discuss the Romanian-Hungarian relationship from the early 1900s until today and also Missy´s actions in Paris in 1920. I swear to be as neutral as possible!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 13, 2005, 11:02:56 AM
Dear Anabel never mind it's ok with me,it was  also my fault, i have a very passionately way of defending Missy:)
Linnea,thanks for that great map and you are right...i don't know why Hungarians were angry only with the Romanians and not with the other" land -robbers"  ;D
well i have an opinion but i better shut up...:)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 13, 2005, 01:43:06 PM
The problem was the large numbers of Hungarians who remained in Transylvania. The other territories (Croatia, Slovakia, the Vojvoidina, Burgenland), had less significant Hungarian minorities.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Frederika on November 13, 2005, 04:34:34 PM
It has to be said that queen Marie's role was not helpfull in this. Hungary lost a lot of its rightfull land to Romania which was not fair. Transilvania had been a historic part of Hungary and was populated by Hungarians. The other places like Craotia and Bohiemia had not been parts of hungary and the hungarians new this. Its like germany losing Alsace Lorrain which has been a historic part of germany but was stollen from them. :-/
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: anabel on November 14, 2005, 02:53:23 AM
I totally agree with you, Frederika! The parts which went to Austria was mostly populated by Austrians, the parts which went to Czechoslowakia and to Jugoslavia by Slavic people. But the part which went to Romania, Transsylvania, had a very mixed population, with Hungarians, Germans, Romanians, etc. So it is a differnt case here. And we are especially sad as there the Hungarian way of life was the most original Hungarian which could be found (like traditions etc.). And it´s really not helpful if a queen begs to some presidents like a stupid little girl "Oh, we so dearly want Transsylvania, and...,and...". That´s not really diplomatic, I suppose! Until today the relationship is more than bad between this countries...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 14, 2005, 03:07:17 AM
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well i have an opinion but i better shut up...:)


Please Laura, you don´t have to shut up, we are having a discussion here! Everybody should post their point of view, but stay polite in the same time...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 03:59:32 AM
it was not like missy to be begging, first of all. while one can say a lot of things about her, she was very aware of her condition as princess and queen. she did not do begging.

second of all i will point out again: more than 50% of the population of transulvania was made up of romanians. for hundreds of years, transylvania was part of hungary, true, but most of its population was made up of romanians. what was even worse, they were completely ignored. romanians were not allowed to vote, were suppressed by the hungarian nobles, their religion was 'tolerated' (ie ignored) and all... while this kind of thing might work on a minority, this is not a very wise policy towards more than half of the population. it had to backfire at some point. you may call me biased but the fact of the matter is that there are more romanians than hungarians living in transylvania and on the 1st of december 1918 they voted the unification of transylvania with romania. the romanian government did not interfear with that. the union was not unconditioned, the transylvanians wanted some rules to be respected, but if those were agreed upon, they wanted to be part of romania. what happened after that was negotiation. the fact of the matter was that transylvania chose its own destiny. and i think it was a fair choice, considerring (i repeat) the VERY LARGE number of romanians living in there. as palimpsest mentioned in the other thread, accusing the romanians of stealing transylvania is like accusing greeks of stealing greece from the turks.  you can't possibly expect more than half of the population to live completely ignored forever. that just doesn't happen.

there are indeed regions where there are more hungarians than romanians. basically harghita and covasna. those are two counties. out of about 15. sorry for hungarians, austrians and all others who support the hungarian cause. that's just not enough.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 04:13:43 AM
i just read the missy and boris thread and the posts on that topic that are related to this topic and i would like to add a few remarks:

1. annabel, my grandmother is hungarian. 100%. she lives in romania and is very happy that way. while i do not argue that for hungarians it must not have been very pleasant, not all fair decisions are pleasant for everybody. in cases like these you have to do what pleases most people, because there is no sollution that would please everybody. romanians were more than hungarians, much more. they wanted to be part of romania, not of hungary. they got their wish.

2. the remark about romanians intelligence was really not needed. not everyone speaks perfect english like you do. that has nothing to do with intelligence, some people study french and german in school, not english. if i were to comment upon the intelligence of all the engfish and american people who don't speak any other language except english, i would probably be banned from every forum there is. there is no such thing as a nation of stupid people. every nation has smart and stupid people. i'm pretty sure proportions are simmilar, too. while i understand you feel strongly on the subject (and so do i, i am a romanian, my mother's parents are from transylvania, one of them hungarian and the other romanian... and i've heard both sides... and decided that although it might hurt a hungarian, the romanian side is more right than the hungarian one... i do not deny that my mostly romanian origin might cause some sort of subjectivity but you have to admit that i do have some reasonable arguments) but please refrain from insulting people who have done you no harm.

3. you might want to check out the arguments pro-romanian transylvania. you might wanna check contemporary sources that talk about the treatment romanians were subjected to while under hungarian rule. while i don't hate hungarians, i do believe the hungarian government was very unfair towards romanians and i believe that a lot of hard feelings and resentment could have been avoided if they would have been less oppressive. i don't expect to change your opinion. i'm just trying to open your mind to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the romanians might have a point too.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Frederika on November 14, 2005, 07:12:22 AM
A lot of Hungarians were killed and persicuted by the Romanian government betwen 1965-1989 and still are trying hard to keep there culture alive but i agree there were a lot of Romanians living there. If Romania wanted more land they should have taken Moldova as that has no cultral and linguistic difference to Romania.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 08:45:32 AM
it is not about wanting more land! it's about knowing that there's around 7-8 million romanians living in a foreign province being persecuted by its government. in a province in which they held majority, mind you! i agree that the communist government persecuted people of foreign origin (not only hungarians, also jews and  germans and gipsies) but you cannot hold the government of the 1920s and the monarchy responsible for that. the communists did a lot of bad things, and not only in romania. but that was 45 years. the romanians in transylvania were oppressed for hundreds of years not by one form of government but by all of them... it was national policy. while that does not excuse the 45 years of oppression of the hungarians in romania, that does make it look a bit less serious.

i am not trying to excuse the communist government. i am most definitely against almost everything it did in my country, that being just one of many things. i'm just trying to compare the work of one system to the work of many systems...

and i point out again: it's not about wanting land. you don't actually think that the romanian government sat and thought 'oh look, we could use a little bit more land let's take transylvania'... no romanian would have fought for a piece of bulgaria for example. we fought for transylvania because there were romanians there. more than any other population. just like we fought for basarabia and bucovina (at that time bucovina also had a lot of romanian population, now it's pretty much extinct due to another communist government)... it's not about wanting land, any land, it's about wanting the land where your brothers live. i'm sure you can understand the difference
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 14, 2005, 10:40:25 AM
For all Pro-Hungarians: Don´t forget that
a. Through the lose of the Burgenland to Austria, many Hungarian noble families still had property after 1945 like the Esterhazys (one of the most famous noble families around ever), the Batthyánys etc. The Romanian nobles (I am not sure guys, does there exist nobles in Romania?) surely lost all their property.
b. Hungary is richer than Romania
I mean that is really not bad either!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 14, 2005, 10:42:58 AM
It is interesting that both Laura and ilya say that they have Hungarian roots, but are passionatly Pro-Romanian and very Anti-Hungarian. ;) Are you sure guys about your family-background?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: TampaBay on November 14, 2005, 11:08:31 AM
Caution & Warning: Ignorant American about to post a question

After WWII and the communist invasion/takeover did it not make all decesions by the 1920 Paris Peace Conference basically, null, void & moot.  Did not the soviets via puppet governments control everything?

Are not the majority of the Baltic nations moving toward a united Europe?

TampaBay

Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 14, 2005, 01:31:07 PM
Even if the Sovjets ruled over whole eastern Europe after 1945, the border of the counties stayed the same. That´s why the bad feelings between Hungary and Romania didn´t disappear.
Even if it is a bit of topic I just have to tell a joke I have heard some time ago by an Hungarian friend:
In the early 1960s, a Hungarian, now living abroad, visits Budapest. He wants to go to the old Déak-Street, but this street doesn´t exist anymore. A nice policeman explains to him that this steet is now the Stalin-Street. Now he wants to go to the old Andrássy-Place, but also this place doesn´t exist anymore either. It´s now the Lenin-Place. A bit confused, he walks down to the Danube. A policemen walking by ask what he´s doing. Our dear Hungarian friend responses: "Oh, I just wanted to look at the Wolga!"
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 01:44:10 PM
Quote
It is interesting that both Laura and ilya say that they have Hungarian roots, but are passionatly Pro-Romanian and very Anti-Hungarian. ;) Are you sure guys about your family-background?



i don't have hungarian roots. i have a hungarian grandmother. that's totally different. my hungarian grandmother married a romanian patriot and became quite a patriot herself. while she does not forget she is hungarian she is one of the hungarians from transylvania that accept the romanian nationality. i've only once passed through hungary. i know a couple of my hungarian relatives but tehy are people that i don't ever talk to unless we happen to be in the same place. so i wouldn't say i have hungarian roots. but because i spent two years in transylvania in a place that had a strong hungarian community, i couldn't help notice the tensions. and i did hear both sides of the story. and i do understand what it must be like to suddenly change governments, nationalities or maybe even get kicked out of your home. but while i wish the transition had been smoother, i can't help thinking that it needed to be done anyway
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Frederika on November 14, 2005, 04:00:57 PM
its easy to say that the hole of eastern europe was ruled by the soviets. bethore 1917 bulgaria greece and yugoslavia (which was non a so-called satalite state) were basicly ruled by western governments. Even to day counties like russia, poland, and the UK are basicly US satalite's who do what ever the US tells them.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 14, 2005, 04:17:27 PM
I totally agree with you ilyala i couldn't have said it better,although i know these things very well is harder  to put them down as you did.
Linnea dear i'm very,very sure of my family-background,and i'm not at all anti-hungarian...i have many hungarian friends,we get along very well,we respect each other etc
Anabel,it seems that you can not be as neutral as you've swear to be in the beginning since you name Missy a begger or you compare this brilliant queen with a stupid little girl :)but its your sincere opinion about her and i respect it...everything she did she did for her country,Romania,the love for us was her faith,she believed in Romania,she died with the words"sweet country" on her lips...if you are neutral you will understand Missy...Had she been queen of Hungary,she would have done the impossible so that Hungary could keep her lands,and she would have certainly failed because this was impossible in the 1920' situation...but i'm sure she would have tried at least,unfortunately for hungarians nobody tried anything(am i right???),although it's true there was almost nothing to do in their situation.Missy identified herself with the Romanian people,with the romanian cause and you have to admit there were few queens in that  period who achieved this...she may seem to you a  humiliated begger ,to us she was our nation's loving mother,our angel of glory,in some way our saviour...i know these seem exaggerated to you but this is what i feel and i can't shut up.Is the same thing,i suppose,you feel for Sissy...
Anyway i don't think we will ever agree because this disscusion is on a  very thorny matter for both sides and some will continue to defend the hungarian cause other will continue to be pro-romanian an i will continue to defend Marie:)who,i repeat did what she thought is better for her country and nobody should blame her for this...

ilyala multumesc:)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 14, 2005, 04:28:30 PM
sorry for my English,i know it's not the best in fact is bad but at least i have written exactly what i feel:)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 15, 2005, 01:04:26 AM
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its easy to say that the hole of eastern europe was ruled by the soviets. bethore 1917 bulgaria greece and yugoslavia (which was non a so-called satalite state) were basicly ruled by western governments. Even to day counties like russia, poland, and the UK are basicly US satalite's who do what ever the US tells them.


??? what does this have to do with the topic of discussion? while russia is most certainly NOT a us sattelite, i agree about the other countries (the smaller ones) of the ex-communist block. they have developed a chronical fear of russia and have stuck with the idea that not russia means us so they cling to the us like idiots. and yes, i include my country in that. and i totally hate the idea of doing everything someone tells you because you're afraid to stand out on your own and i apply that to these countries too. but, again, what does this have to do with transylvania and who should get it?


Quote
ilyala multumesc


nu ai pentru ce :)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: muriel on November 15, 2005, 01:56:37 AM
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Even if it is a bit of topic I just have to tell a joke I have heard some time ago by an Hungarian friend:
In the early 1960s, a Hungarian, now living abroad, visits Budapest. He wants to go to the old Déak-Street, but this street doesn´t exist anymore. A nice policeman explains to him that this steet is now the Stalin-Street. Now he wants to go to the old Andrássy-Place, but also this place doesn´t exist anymore either. It´s now the Lenin-Place. A bit confused, he walks down to the Danube. A policemen walking by ask what he´s doing. Our dear Hungarian friend responses: "Oh, I just wanted to look at the Wolga!"


Oh, that´s a brilliant anecdote! I am sure you could hear similar ones in whole Eastern Europe!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: muriel on November 15, 2005, 02:02:09 AM
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the Esterhazys, the Batthyánys etc. The


Oh, those Hungarian names are so sexy! :P
I think that another part of the problem is that Hungary is a very female country, it sometimes acts like a beautiful spoilt girl. And the other eastern countries, especially Romania, are more male, even harsh. So when R. took away land/property from Hungary, the land reacted like every beautiful girl would react, she was extremly angry! That´s why some say that Hungary was "rapped" by Romania...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 15, 2005, 02:06:12 AM
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Linnea dear i'm very,very sure of my family-background,and i'm not at all anti-hungarian...


Laura, I didn´t want to annoy you, I was just surprised that both you and ilya have mixed backgraounds but are passionatly pro-romanian. ;)
And, dear Laura, I think you have to understand anabel. She can´t be neutral at this topic (and I am sure you can´t either) because it is a very emotional topic.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 15, 2005, 03:34:59 AM
i can understand personal involvement into a topic. especially since i am personally involved too. but i would like for people to admit it when other people make valid points against their case. every time i witnessed a simmilar conflict, the hungarians said 'but transylvania was part of hungary for hundreds of years so it's ours'. no-one ever mentioned the clear romanian majority. and if you ask me that is not a valid argument. greece and bulgaria were part of the ottoman empire for centuries. does that mean they have to be turkish now? i don't like it when people cling to an argument, even when it's proved invalid. all i'm asking for is a little open-mindness.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: TampaBay on November 15, 2005, 05:39:00 AM
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 Even to day counties like russia, poland, and the UK are basicly US satalite's who do what ever the US tells them.


As a citizen of the USA I must say the above statement is not true!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 06:08:28 AM
i don't think Russia is a US satalite but anyway this has nothing to do with our discussion:(
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 06:43:14 AM
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Laura, I didn´t want to annoy you, I was just surprised that both you and ilya have mixed backgraounds but are passionatly pro-romanian. ;)
And, dear Laura, I think you have to understand anabel. She can´t be neutral at this topic (and I am sure you can´t either) because it is a very emotional topic.


You didn't annoy me at all:) it's true it's hard for everyone to stay neutral at this topic,each is involved in some way,i wrote about this too...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 15, 2005, 07:25:59 AM
Quote

As a citizen of the USA I must say the above statement is not true!

TampaBay



as a citizem of romania i can tell you that the statement is not untrue. while romania does not do EVERYTHING the us asks, the romanian government is very keen on pleasing the american government. basically it goes back to years of russian oppresion. in the cold war it was either the russians or the americans. after we got rid of the russians most romanians hated them so bad that they figured the only way to avoid that happening again is to get close to the american government. therefor, any way to please the americans was almost immediately accepted. as a romanian citizen and as a person who does not like this kind of behaviour i am against this policy. but most romanians are in agreement to it.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Frederika on November 15, 2005, 11:14:43 AM
maybe russia is not a US satilite that was a stupid thing to say! :-[

but it is true that america now owns a lot of it. Poland defanitly is they have understandibly always hated Russia but they are an extremly fashist and nationalistic country the ownly one in europe who wanted a second Bush term.

living in the UK  i can certanly tell you that the government here does everything the Bush adminitration tells it.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: anabel on November 15, 2005, 02:22:02 PM
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Anabel,it seems that you can not be as neutral as you've swear to be in the beginning since you name Missy a begger or you compare this brilliant queen with a stupid little girl :)


Laura, here is what your beloved Queen Maria (Why do you call her by her nickname all the time? That´s not respectful at all...) said in 1920:" You see, Romania simply has to have Transylvania. We want so much Bessarabia too." That´s begging. Just compare this behaviour with that of a spoilt girl saying "Mommy, I wannt this and that."
BTW, I am not an admirer of Empress Elisabeth. She only used Hungary for personal reason (possibility to escape from Vienna, to annoy her mother-in-law etc.), but she of course also did good things. And I think that also your Queen Maria did good things like visiting soldiers during WWI, but was it really necessary to steal land from another country?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 15, 2005, 03:58:36 PM
you keep using the word stealing but you never argument on why the land should belong to hungary and not romania. i have given you plenty of reasons why transylvania should belong to romania. you haven't given me one valid reason for which it should belong to hungary. please try to state your case.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 04:47:24 PM
Quote

Laura (...)Why do you call her by her nickname all the time? That´s not respectful at all...)  


Because i am always in a hurry and it is easier like that"Missy" ;)being more familiar does not mean you are not respectful...also i 'd rather value her as a human being-Missy or Marie- than as a queen:)
Strange thing that you don't admire Empress Elisabeth...I DO ,for almost the same reasons i like Marie,but unfortunately we can't discuss this here since it has nothing to do with Transilvania:)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 05:04:39 PM
Quote

Oh, those Hungarian names are so sexy! :P
I think that another part of the problem is that Hungary is a very female country, it sometimes acts like a beautiful spoilt girl. And the other eastern countries, especially Romania, are more male, even harsh. So when R. took away land/property from Hungary, the land reacted like every beautiful girl would react, she was extremly angry! That´s why some say that Hungary was "rapped" by Romania...


a very interesting point of view on the matter ;)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 05:31:56 PM
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The Romanian nobles (I am not sure guys, does there exist nobles in Romania?) surely lost all their property.
 


there were nobles in Romania...Sturdza ,Callimachi,Cantacuzino,Ghika, and many others
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 05:35:41 PM
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living in the UK  i can certanly tell you that the government here does everything the Bush adminitration tells it.


true!!!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 15, 2005, 06:15:55 PM
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you keep using the word stealing but you never argument on why the land should belong to hungary and not romania. i have given you plenty of reasons why transylvania should belong to romania. you haven't given me one valid reason for which it should belong to hungary. please try to state your case.


ilyala,i have one valid reason which we've heard several times ;D : for hundreds of years ,Transilvania was part of Hungary not of Romania,Hungarians were there first (no  matter Romanians were in  a  majority -and the majority decides!!!)  in conclusion  Transilvania should belong to Hungary not to Romania...my friends ,this is simply not enough,you need more arguments...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 16, 2005, 01:36:51 AM
ii have already argued that argument: greece and bulgaria were part of the ottoman empire for centuries, does that mean they should be turkish provinces now? any other arguments?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: anabel on November 16, 2005, 06:16:25 AM
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(no  matter Romanians were in  a  majority -and the majority decides!!!)

That´s true, Laura, the majority should decide, but only in a democracy, and neither Hungary nor Romania were democracies at at time... Romania was first a kingdom, then a dictatorial kingdom and after 1947 a sovjet republic... In none of these forms of gouvernment the people decides what is happening, so why should they have decided in this case? It was only a bad excuse of those in power who wanted to teach Hungary a lesson. Some reasons why Transylvania should belong to Hungary:
- belong for Hungary for hundreds of years
- of course there were Romanians there, but those who had money and influence where Hungarians (the Hungarians made 35 %, only 15% less than the Romanians). So it was the Hungarians who brought wealth to Transylvania, not the Romanians.
- It was the most Hungarian parts of Hungary considering traditions, language, etc.

Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:12:48 AM
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greece and bulgaria were part of the ottoman empire for centuries, does that mean they should be turkish provinces now?




Of course NOT ! ! ! God forbid!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:29:26 AM
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That´s true, Laura, the majority should decide, but only in a democracy, and neither Hungary nor Romania were democracies at at time... Romania was first a kingdom, then a dictatorial kingdom and after 1947 a sovjet republic... In none of these forms of gouvernment the people decides what is happening, so why should they have decided in this case? It was only a bad excuse of those in power who wanted to teach Hungary a lesson.



Anabel in cases like this (the end of the great war which  led to some countrie becoming winners and other counteries were defeated;1920' political situation in general etc.)the majority is very impotant-not necessary in a democracy...Romanians were in the majority and they voted this unification,and the government simply negociated after that...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:33:16 AM
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It was only a bad excuse of those in power who wanted to teach Hungary a lesson.



what do you mean by this??? i don't think this was the purpose???each defeated country lost something...more or less and each winning country gained something...more or less again...this things usually  happen in great wars,i might seem cynical to you but everything then favoured  Hungary's loss of territory and the unification of Transilvania with Romania
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:45:11 AM
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Some reasons why Transylvania should belong to Hungary:
- belong for Hungary for hundreds of years
- of course there were Romanians there, but those who had money and influence where Hungarians (the Hungarians made 35 %, only 15% less than the Romanians). So it was the Hungarians who brought wealth to Transylvania, not the Romanians.




True,Hungarians were richer than Romanians yet i don't think money or influence are that important here but that 15% is very important because that 15% made the difference
Anyway, this is an interesting reason ,Anabel!!and i agree on the importance of money and wealth in general for the economiocal progress of a region;yes indeed Hungarians and Germans were very,very important for /in Transilvania's development>>
But then again this "money matter"should not influence at all Transilvania's "ownership"...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:51:40 AM
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- It was the most Hungarian parts of Hungary considering traditions, language, etc.



Was it???wow then that's very sad for Hungary:(:(now it is the most important part of Romania considering everything but this is not a great consolation to Hungarians,obviously...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 16, 2005, 09:12:59 AM
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That´s true, Laura, the majority should decide, but only in a democracy, and neither Hungary nor Romania were democracies at at time...


and of course, because it wasn't a democracy for centuries it should keep not being a democracy for the following years, just to suit the hungarian purposes... you do realiz how ridiculous that sounds, right?

Quote
Romania was first a kingdom, then a dictatorial kingdom and after 1947 a sovjet republic...


romania was a constitutional monarchy. like britain is today. in case you were wondering, britain is a democratic country ;)

Quote
In none of these forms of gouvernment the people decides what is happening, so why should they have decided in this case? It was only a bad excuse of those in power who wanted to teach Hungary a lesson.


of course, the poor hungarians, the whole world decided that they were bad and decided to teach them a lesson. that's the worst conspiracy theory ever. no-one has anything against you, you lost transylvania because it shouldn't have been yours to begin with. you come up with all these reasons and here's an argument that can cancel each and every one of them:

Quote
Some reasons why Transylvania should belong to Hungary:
- belong for Hungary for hundreds of years


i repeat for the hundredth time: just because greece belonged to turkey for hundred of years, it doesn't been it should be a turkish province now. you still haven't cancelled that argument which cancels your argument. it also applies to transylvania, therefor it's invalid.

Quote
- of course there were Romanians there, but those who had money and influence where Hungarians (the Hungarians made 35 %, only 15% less than the Romanians). So it was the Hungarians who brought wealth to Transylvania, not the Romanians.


so, basically, what you are saying is that the people with money have more right to vote and decide what's going on with their country than people with no money. i find that nonsesical. in a democracy EVERYONE has a right to vote. and as i said, just because transylvania wasn't a democracy before doesn't mean it should never be a democracy.  the 1923 constitution of romania granted everyone the right to vote. therefor romania was a democratic country.
another thing: romanians in transylvania had no money because they didn't have any right to do any job that would bring much money. most romanians were serfs for centuries. after they stopped being serfs they were mostly poor people, oppressed by the people who 'tolerated' them. according to you, a system that is not democratic should stay not democratic and because centuries of oppressions made the peasants poor and the nobles rich, only the nobles should have a right to vote.
i really hope you don't believe that.

Quote
- It was the most Hungarian parts of Hungary considering traditions, language, etc.


really?! have you ever been to transylvania? i lived there. i still go there a month a year.  some houses look a little different but you know what the funny thing is: it's not the hungarian houses, it's the GERMAN houses that look different. the hungarian houses look just like the romanian ones. the towns look the same, the holidays are the same, the people look just like the other romanians, just that some of them (not most of them just some) speak a different language, and not because they don't know romanian but because they're too stubborn to use it. yes, there are hungarian communities and romanian communities, and some hungarian communities have different traditions, but i think we've already established that the romanian communities are more and bigger and so the romanian traditions are generally a majority.

any other arguments?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 16, 2005, 10:27:29 AM
ilya, anabel is right here: Carol II. made Romania a dictatorial kingdom in 1940, which sadly means it hadn´t a contitution from then on. I presume it was a constitutional kingdom before that, just like GB or Norway. Good for Queen Marie that she didn´t have to see this!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 16, 2005, 10:36:00 AM
ilya, you arguments that Greece was part of the Turkish empire for hundreds of years. That´s true, but there is an important difference between our problem here: Greece had been greek before the Osmanian empire was founded. Just think of the Greek philosophes who lived 2000 a.d.! So Greece existed long before. Here we do have another case: Transylvania hadn´t ever been a part of Romania before, it wasn´t traditionaly Romanian. It became a part of Romania in 1920 only because of the Romanian majority. BTW, how is the relationship between the counties today? Sometimes you read something in the newspapers (like the meeting between the governments recently), but I would like to hear it from you. Is this conflict really still so important?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 16, 2005, 10:40:25 AM
ilya, dear, could you please don´t use a that harsh tone? I don´t think it is necessary as most of your arguments are quite good. :)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: TampaBay on November 16, 2005, 12:36:57 PM
Quote


as a citizem of romania i can tell you that the statement is not untrue. while romania does not do EVERYTHING the us asks, the romanian government is very keen on pleasing the american government. basically it goes back to years of russian oppresion. in the cold war it was either the russians or the americans. after we got rid of the russians most romanians hated them so bad that they figured the only way to avoid that happening again is to get close to the american government. therefor, any way to please the americans was almost immediately accepted. as a romanian citizen and as a person who does not like this kind of behaviour i am against this policy. but most romanians are in agreement to it.



I believe you are refering to American Politicians not the American People.  Most American People could not locate Romania on an unmarked map.  

However, the American people who have studied Romania support the Romanian Peoples' rights and efforts to determine her own destiny.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 16, 2005, 02:36:07 PM
okay, where to start...

we are talking about 1918 here. you cannot hold the 1918 government responsible for what carol 2nd did in 1938 or for what the communists did from 1945 on.

second of all. ok. let's not comare romania to greece. let's compare romania to bulgaria. bulgaria, like romania, was an obscure crowd of states in the first millenium. before the romans, bulgaria was made up of tribes of common origin, like romania. unlike romania, bulgaria never united into one state before the romans. romania is situated on the ancient location of dacia which was ONE country. made up of not only today's romania, but also basarabia, bucovina, during the times of burebista (around caesar's times) going all the way to the czech republic. after burebista, the kingdom disbanded and contained only the romanian historical provinces. romanians were not in transylvania by chance, just like bulgarians were not in bulgaria by chance. they were the descendants of the dacs mixed with the roman conquerors.while it is true that they were not an united state, they were very much aware of their kinship. bulgaria was conquered by the turks. it stayed a turkish province for centuries. should it stay like that just because the turks stayed there for centuries and because bulgaria was not of the international fame of the greek cities? the same could go for albania, most of the yugoslav states... they were not states in the true sense of the way till the 19th-20th century. does that mean that serbia should have stayed austrian?

i could go on for hours...

i am sorry if my tone is harsh but, unlike others, i have not called anyone stupid and i am still in control of what i am saying. but i hate it when i have to repeat the same argument over and over again and the person i am talking to does not register.

tampabay: of course i am talking about american politicians. and romanian politicians. i don't think anyone can generalize about a whole nation, especially one the size of the american nation. that part of the thread is pure politics, has nothing to do with what the normal sam from milwaukee or the normal dan from bucharest want.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 04:24:05 PM
ilyala your arguments are amazing,very good research...can you find any valid  pro-hungarian arguments,(i'm just curious)??
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: grandduchessella on November 16, 2005, 04:40:24 PM
I haven't read this so  can't give a personal opinion but this book might be of interest:

LATER CHAPTERS OF MY LIFE: The Lost Memoir of Queen Marie of Romania by Diana Mandache
2004; ISBN: 0750936916


"The text of the present short volume (only 155 pages) has only lately emerged from the National Archives in Bucharest. Sadly, it contains no details of her personal life, which was as colourful as her public achievements were impressive. But it shows what could be achieved in those days by a determined queen, half Russian and half Anglo-German. The most important chapter describes her time at the Peace Conference in 1919, at which Romania was distinctly suspect, having made terms with the Central Powers early in 1918, and only rejoining the Allies a few days before the Armistice, rather as Russia declared war on Japan in 1945 in order to be in on the subsequent peace conferences—but with considerably more justification.

Queen Marie was invited to participate separately from the official Romanian delegation, and Bratianu, the Romanian prime minister, admitted that she achieved more in a few days than his team had done in a month. This was because she was able to present the human face of Romania, and to use her personal talents for persuasion in a far more effective fashion.

Her vignettes of the national leaders whom she had to convert to her cause are very much to the point. Lloyd George, she wrote, was ‘full of fun and wit, thoroughly enjoying his own jokes. I was carried away by his undeniable charm, while wondering how much he really understood about Europe...’ (Answer, next to nothing.) Balfour was ‘not very kindly inclined towards Romania, and being so very suave and charming, combined with a certain absent-mindedness, it was not easy to discover a chink in his armour’. Clemenceau, too, had,

some grievances against Romania, and at several moments we glared at each other like two fighters...When once I half rose to leave, so as not to steal his precious time, he impatiently waved me back to my seat. ‘I have plenty of time for you: you do not whine, you speak up, I like that!’

He even said to the then Romanian ambassador Antonescu, ‘A queen like yours can only be received with military honours, with Marshal Foch at the head!’ Indeed, both Foch and President Poincaré saw her off at the station when she left.

Her part in the acquisition of Transylvania to form Greater Romania was crucial, yet she had no feelings of triumph, but rather of sympathy for the dispossessed Hungarians; and she was convinced, with more wisdom than many, that the terms inflicted on Germany were so severe that they would inevitably have disastrous repercussions. ‘The victors,’ she wrote, ‘have forgotten to be generous.’

One of her more tangible achievements was to acquire 50 engines for the battered Romanian railways, and when she went home it was with several coaches of vital food supplies attached to her train. She then threw herself into the vast task of saving hundreds of thousands of widows, orphans and invalids from starvation and from inadequate hospital care, which further increased her already enormous popularity. Her earlier heroic work in hospitals at the front in 1916–18 had prepared her for the job, and she was immensely successful in harnessing the Hoover Organisation and the American, Canadian and British Red Cross, which all made important contributions. She remains silent on the abdication and other failures on the part of her son, the future King Carol, who was a sort of Duke of Windsor but with extra Balkan drawbacks. "

"Her last memoir, written from the period following the First World War until the end of 1922, includes both the fascinating trivia and intimate details of her daily life, and also brings us alongside her as she witnesses world-changing events. From the 1919 Peace Conference—at which Queen Marie met Clemenceau, Poincare, Woodrow Wilson and Hoover—to her last meeting with her mother, the Duchess of Saxe­Coburg; and from her informal visits to Paris, London and Transylvania to the first parliament of Greater Romania, the memoir gives great insight into the life of this extraordinary queen."

It might be worth checking out for those particularly interested in this period and her role in it.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 05:10:14 PM
Quote
BTW, how is the relationship between the counties today? Sometimes you read something in the newspapers (like the meeting between the governments recently), but I would like to hear it from you. Is this conflict really still so important?


Politicians feel they can keep everything under control,the governments met ....bla,bla,bla you know these things...i think taht nowadays  the relationship between the two countries is less tenssioned and more a relation of accepting one another.
But the conflict between hungarians and romanians still persist,unfortunately,in Romania(and because of some instigating politicians),bassicaly in Harghita and Covasna,the 2 counties where hungarians are in a majority.i watched a talkshow on this matter between a romanian politician and a hungarian one yesterday,it was very interesting...this unforunate and eternal conflict is related most of all to the hugarian language,school,church,etcthe fewer romanians say they'll have to leave that region because they can not understand the language ,they say that they can't make themselves understood to doctors,when they need medical attendance etc
it's a very very sad situation:(:(:(
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 17, 2005, 05:15:27 AM
Quote
ilyala your arguments are amazing,very good research...can you find any valid  pro-hungarian arguments,(i'm just curious)??



i sincerely believe that transylvania should belong with the romanians. there are, of course reasons why the hungarians want it. the most valid reason the hungarians can present is the fact that it's been under hungarian control for almost 1000 years. while i believe this argument to be invalid for reasons stated before, it is quite a strong argument. when hungarians arrived in transylvania, the romanians were very disbanded in very small kingdoms (actually called voievodate) and they were very easy to conquer by an organized army. it is true that the hungarians and the austrians invested a lot in transylvania. it is true they organized the country in a way that it hadn't been organized since the romans. it is true that it must be very frustrating to lose a piece of land after so many centuries. and i can understand their desire to get it back. but i wish that they wouldn't let that desire blind them. most hungarians don't listen to reason and arguments. all they know is 'transylvania should be with hungary'.

on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....

as for the relations between the two countries, it's not like we're at war or anything... most people don't bother with these stuff... i don't either, unless am part of an active conversation about it... since we ARE heading towards an united europe, i don't think it will be a problem for too long
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 06:28:32 AM
Quote

on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....



certainly!!!!!!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 17, 2005, 09:56:00 AM
Quote

Politicians feel they can keep everything under control,the governments met ....bla,bla,bla you know these things...i think taht nowadays  the relationship between the two countries is less tenssioned and more a relation of accepting one another.
But the conflict between hungarians and romanians still persist,unfortunately,in Romania(and because of some instigating politicians),bassicaly in Harghita and Covasna,the 2 counties where hungarians are in a majority.i watched a talkshow on this matter between a romanian politician and a hungarian one yesterday,it was very interesting...this unforunate and eternal conflict is related most of all to the hugarian language,school,church,etcthe fewer romanians say they'll have to leave that region because they can not understand the language ,they say that they can't make themselves understood to doctors,when they need medical attendance etc
it's a very very sad situation:(:(:(


Hmm, that´s really a sad situation, I think. It´s kind of sad that mixed populations always have problems with each other and can´t get along... That was also the problem in Jugoslavia, where to many differnt ethnies and religions didn´t get along, so, after a terrible war, the country was splitted up in many small ones.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 17, 2005, 09:58:50 AM
Quote

but i wish that they wouldn't let that desire blind them. most hungarians don't listen to reason and arguments. all they know is 'transylvania should be with hungary'.



Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 17, 2005, 10:00:02 AM
Quote

on the other hand i'm pretty sure that if a referendum would be organized in transylvania, it would still vote to be in romania. with the exception of harghita and covasna.....


Of course, as Romanians are in the majority... ;)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 17, 2005, 10:22:44 AM
Quote

Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.



uhm... maybe i'm mistaken, but i believe my arguments to be reasonable and valid. my argument does not consist solely of 'transylvania should be romanian cause i want it to, or cause we want it to' etc. maybe i am biased, but i think i made a pretty strong case...  :)

Quote
Of course, as Romanians are in the majority...


so why are we even discussing this? why should transylvania belong to hungary, if most transylvanians want to stay in romania? is it just me or it really doesn't make sense?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: anabel on November 17, 2005, 10:39:14 AM
Quote

so, basically, what you are saying is that the people with money have more right to vote and decide what's going on with their country than people with no money. i find that nonsesical. in a democracy EVERYONE has a right to vote. and as i said, just because transylvania wasn't a democracy before doesn't mean it should never be a democracy.  the 1923 constitution of romania granted everyone the right to vote. therefor romania was a democratic country.



Oh, you are soo sweet! Do you really believe that in a democracy everybody´s vote counts the same?!? Not if Romania is still that corrupt as it was back then! ;D That´s so naive, I can´t believe it!!!
And, dear, you don´t seem to be open for the most important reason at all: Transylvania had been Hungarian since ever after; sadly, Romanians saw that people in Hungary were richer (and, thanks God, we still are!), so they decided to move where the wealth was...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 11:27:33 AM
Quote

Well, do Romanians listen to arguments? ;) It seem to be a kind of "communication problem" too.



here i agree with you Linnea!!!!!!sometimes hungarians and romanians simply can't communicate...i repeat ONLY SOMETIMES!!!because,as i said it before, i get along very well with my  hungarian relatives and friends>>
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 11:31:55 AM
Quote

Hmm, that´s really a sad situation, I think. It´s kind of sad that mixed populations always have problems with each other and can´t get along... That was also the problem in Jugoslavia, where to many differnt ethnies and religions didn´t get along, so, after a terrible war, the country was splitted up in many small ones.



yes! indeed, as i said it's a very sad situatin for everyone, because romanians or hugarians ,everybody looses something because of this stupid conflict,so this problem MUST  be solved as soon as possible(although it is very difficult for both sides)- anyway i hope we will solve this  together...sometimes>Laura
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 11:46:26 AM

Quote

Of course, as Romanians are in the majority... ;)


no matter who is in a majority and who is in a minority...the fact is that if a referendum would be organized, the majority(hungarians or romanians,they all are transylvanians) would decide...that's the way these things work!!! you know this thing-the majority is essential and as romanians are in the majority in Transilvania,romanians would  obviously decide to be in Romania together with their brothers:)
yet i don't think we should discuss  this big "IF" cause i don't think there will be any referendum on this matter in the next years in Transilvania...
Laura
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: muriel on November 17, 2005, 01:10:56 PM
Quote

so why are we even discussing this? why should transylvania belong to hungary, if most transylvanians want to stay in romania? is it just me or it really doesn't make sense?


If one applies this logic, you could also say that e.g. some parts of the USA should be part of Mexico, as they have a Mexican majority! You see, this doesn´t work out...
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 17, 2005, 02:43:05 PM
Quote

If one applies this logic, you could also say that e.g. some parts of the USA should be part of Mexico, as they have a Mexican majority! You see, this doesn´t work out...



that depends. do the mexicans in those states wanna live in mexico or in the us? cause if for example i wanna live in the us and i move in a state that has a majority of romanians, i don't want that state to belong to romania. i moved to the us for a reason... right?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 17, 2005, 02:50:27 PM
Quote

Oh, you are soo sweet! Do you really believe that in a democracy everybody´s vote counts the same?!? Not if Romania is still that corrupt as it was back then! ;D That´s so naive, I can´t believe it!!!
And, dear, you don´t seem to be open for the most important reason at all: Transylvania had been Hungarian since ever after; sadly, Romanians saw that people in Hungary were richer (and, thanks God, we still are!), so they decided to move where the wealth was...



since ever after?! hungarians came in europe at the beginning of the 10th century. the romanians had been there since the romans left. in case you wanna know when that was that was the 3rd century. and the only reason why i'm not saying before that is that because that there was the dacs (who are the romanian's ancestors) and when the romans came they mixed with the dacs and that resulted in the romanian people. if you wanna count the dacs too, we've been here since the first millenium before christ.

and before you will give me that bullshit theory of the whole romanian people migrating to albania after the roman withdrawal, it is written in the HUNGARIAN chronicle, written by anonymous, HUNGARIAN writer at the court of king bella 4th, all about how hungarians came, found romanians in transylvania and conquered it. romanians were there before hungarians. attested in hungarian chronicle. i have it on a shelf, if you want i can quote. you might wanna check out a library or something though, cause it's a big book.

and uhm, yes... as far as voting is concerned, in a democracy everyone counts the same. cause the vote is secret and no-one writes on the vote bulletin 'i have this much money so my vote counts twice'. while i don't deny that as far as politics and governments are concerned, there are many corrupt officials (not just in romania, just about everywhere, including hungary) you can't possibly imagine that the majority of romanian people who had been oppressed for centuries by the hungarians, voted to stay in hungary. now THAT would be naivety.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 04:46:26 PM
Quote

If one applies this logic, you could also say that e.g. some parts of the USA should be part of Mexico, as they have a Mexican majority! You see, this doesn´t work out...


to me it is not the same thing,the relationship between the countries , on one hand Romania and Hungary on the other hand US and Mexico is different...were there any discussions between us and mexico on this???
there are cases(like the transilvania issue)where this is a possible valid reason  and other cases (your example)where this simply does not work ,it is nonsensical...to me the sense is given by the context of the whole situation(including wars,state politicsetc ,even geographical positionetc etc)
my humble opinion again:)Laura
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 05:16:56 PM
Quote
Do you really believe that in a democracy everybody´s vote counts the same?!? Not if Romania is still that corrupt as it was back then! ;D That´s so naive, I can´t believe it!!!


yes  i think that in a democracy everybody's vote counts the same or at least should count the same  ...corruption persists almost everywhere,more or less of course and i have the feeling that Romania is less corrupted today,you may call me anything you want  ,the fact is that i live here and i can notice a progress.in that sense ...maybe i'm being too optimistic but i really believe in this progress...Laura
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 05:45:49 PM
Quote
sadly, Romanians saw that people in Hungary were richer (and, thanks God, we still are!), so they decided to move where the wealth was...


indeed,on one hand , what they had found was wealth(and i stated here you were right)this was extremely important for Transilvania's economical progress),but this was reserved for the Hungarian nobles and on the other hand they also found (and i'm sure you know this sad thing)perssecution,oppression,slavery,lack of rights, humility,poverty etc which were ,unfortunately ,reserved for them,all the romanian peasants(or maybe you think that was exactly what they deserved for being so and so)...:( you say that all those unfortunate and poor people moved towards hungarian wealth and,at the same time towards their own poverty,humiliation ,...:(
Anabel,with all the respect ,i can't agree with your statement:(
my humble opinion...Laura:)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Laura_ on November 17, 2005, 06:04:56 PM
Quote

people in Hungary were richer (and, thanks God, we still are!)


do you really think this "money argument" is that important to everyone???
i mean it is,to a great extent , important but it shouldn't be vitally important in our case cause it can easily lead to a sort of "wealth discrimination"between the hungarian people and the romanians...you know ,the discussion on the rights to vote,the vote of the rich,the vote of the poor,the importance of one's vote due to social status etcetc,ilya explained this better!!
is money that important to you Anabel because you are always mentioning it???  ;)

Hungary is richer than Romania...hmm...economically yes,geographically no  ;D


it's too late ,i'm tired and i cannot think anymore...Good Night everyone:):):) Laura
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 18, 2005, 01:29:56 AM
Ladies, it seems like as if this disscusion will lead to nothing... I think both Hungary and Romania are very interesting countries with rich cultures, beautiful landscapes (OK, Transylvania is beautiful, but Hungary still holds some of the most beautiful parts of Eastern Europe, I think), nice people, fascinating languages etc.! It is (sadly) always difficult when there is a mixed population in a country, but maybe this will get better in the future!
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on November 18, 2005, 01:51:05 AM
and some of Romania:

Transylvania (or the bone of contention  ;))
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Travel/Pix/pictures/2005/06/10/transylvania372.jpg)

Bukarest
(http://www.continentholiday.net/images/bukarest/bukarest_natteater.jpg)

Danube Delta
(http://www.wege-nach-osten.de/images/wno5roa41.jpg)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: palimpsest on November 20, 2005, 10:46:38 AM
(http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/1699/51801477im.jpg)

A family rides a horse drawn cart past a campaign billboard for presidential candidate Frunda Gyorgy, of the Hungarian Democratic Union party, that reads "Future without Visa" in Targu Mures, 440 kilometers (275 miles) northwest of Bucharest, Romania, Nov. 8, 2000. Heading into a presidential election on Nov. 26th., many Romanians are hoping that the nation's next president will lead Romania towards membership with European Union, and the prosperity that "being in Europe" has come to represent. (AP Photo/Vadim Ghirda)


(http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2710/49789281sg.jpg)

Hungary's women's handball team, right, blocks the ball as Romania, left, shoots in preliminaries handball competition at the Olympic Games in Sydney Saturday, September 23, 2000. The final score was 21-21 all. (AP Photo/Themba Hadebe)


(http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/636/43161324xu.jpg)

A fisherman gathers dead fish caught from the River Tisza at Kiskoere, some 105 kms east of Budapest, Hungary on Tuesday, February 10, 2000, after cyanide polluted water of the river reached the region. Cyanide has polluted the water of Tisza and exterminated the total animal world of the river on its reach in Hungary after a leakage from a gold mine in Romania January 30th. (AP Photo by Sandor H. Szabo)



(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4213/81672206fe.jpg)

Foreign ministers Mihai-Razvan Ungureanu of Romania, Ferenc Somogyi of Hungary, and Vuk Draskovic of Serbia, from left, smile during the opening ceremony of a common border crossing of the three neighbouring countries in Kuebekhaza, near Szeged, southern Hungary, Saturday, May 28, 2005. (AP Photo/MTI, Gyoergy Nemeth)




(http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5995/88137790ke.jpg)

Romanian Prime Minister Calin Popescu-Tariceanu, right, and his Hungarian counterpart Ferenc Gyurcsany exchange documents after they signed agreements during the first ever joint session of the Romanian and the Hungarian governments in the Victoria Palace in Buchareest, Romania, Thursday, Oct. 20, 2005. (AP Photo/MTI, Tamas Kovacs)



(http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/6813/79058190fa.jpg)

Ethnic Hungarian girls, dressed in national costumes, listen to the Easter Sunday mass in Korosfoe, Romania, Sunday, March 27, 2005. In many parts of Romania members of the Hungarian minority still celebrate Easter in the traditional way. (AP Photo / MTI, Tibor Olah)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on November 20, 2005, 02:06:59 PM
Quote
So is Dracula Hungarian or Romanian guys? ;)



lol, that depends.

if you're talking about vlad dracula 'the impaler, vlad 3rd, ruler of wallachia, he was romanian.

if you're talking about bram stoker's vampire count, he has a line in the book in which he claims to come from a legendary hungarian family :)... but he's transylvanian... which could mean he's of mixed blood :P
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: dboro on January 04, 2006, 06:33:03 AM
Thanks to Linnea & Palimpsest for this sublime conclusion. I've found this topic today and sometimes I felt really sad because of its tone. Thanks again,

Daniel Borovi
[a Hungarian living in Hungary]
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: dvoretzky on January 04, 2006, 09:58:55 AM
I am sure that in 10-15 years, when Romania is firmly an EU member, Transylvania won't be an issue anymore. No more borders, no more animosity... Look what happened between France and Germany, do they care now who owns Alsace and Lorraine?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 09, 2006, 03:38:05 AM
Wuh..wat a long thread! If I write somethng, what is already written, then I apologize, but its really a long one and as usual Im outta time... :-[
Well, firstly, we Hungarians are not "angry" (anymore:)) for the lost territories, history is not about justice and we not gonna be like Plaestinians or something, hehe, we live with it: but we definitely feel terrible when e.g. in Serbia we hear (every week!!) an other beating or attacking of Hungarians and graffitis on Hungarian houses (whch were built before ages!!) like go home or something...It is bad, when we hear in the news, that Hungarians were attacked just because they stick to the land of their ancestors-it is anger of course, but it doesn't mean, we gonna fight. I would call it sadness.

that's totally different. my hungarian grandmother married a romanian patriot and became quite a patriot herself

hehe, my husband is a foreigner too, but they always call me in his family "yeah, your proud Hungarian wife"-but my husband is from very very far...not in the neighbourhood:-) Now even he is infected by me and we wanna settle here..well...God knows, it depends on Hungary's economic situation :-?

It was the most Hungarian parts of Hungary considering traditions, language, etc.
Well...certainly not the MOST, but ONE OF. here are Hungarians in the end of Moldavia as well,c alled "chango" (dont ask me their Romanian name, i dunno), they still use an ancient, archaic form of Hungarian, so they kinda like the apple of the eye of every Hungarian who cares with culture and history, because we definitely must preserve their heritage. They live also near to..hmm..Klezs? Do I say it right? And yes, Transsylvania was centerpoint of a Hungarian painting school (what gave famous painters to the world) and Nagyvarad (I also dunno the Rumanian name, sorry) was a cultural center for artists and poets and writers, etc..Till their work lives in our heart, their places will live to in them.
Passport doesn't matter here.




Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Linnea on June 09, 2006, 04:07:20 AM
Nathalie, what a delightful post! :)
It´s good to hear that the Hungarians and Romanians are on good terms again! And it´s very disturbing to hear about the circumstances in Serbia.  :'(
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 09, 2006, 04:44:10 AM
Thank you :)
I find no benefit in hatred or enmity-though I feel the loss of my country and I will definitely teach my children as well about our glorious past and great Hungarians (whom many of them now shud need a passport to come here), I can easily imagine having a great Rumanian, Serbian, Ukrainian or whatever friend as my confidant and strenght, why not? People and politics are two different things. I love Serbian kitche and music, and it wont change, just because some idiots hate my people and some bigger idiots in the government don't do anything about it.
I think the whole region still needs to adpot some Western-European manners and morals; I can understand us being late, since all of us were severely affected by the wars and the communists, but now it is time to adjust and act like civilizated people, or else we will be still called "Balkan", though geographically we are in the middle :)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 09, 2006, 05:30:11 AM
besides being one quarter hungarian, i am also half moldavian. one of my moldavian aunts married a 'ceangau' (that's what we call them here). they are indeed of hungarian origin and they have their own separate tradition, from romanians and from transylvanian hungarians too. i think they make up a different population by now (which doesn't make them any less hungarian, but romanians are different too - transylvanians, moldavians, etc)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: TampaBay on June 13, 2006, 06:30:25 AM
Everyone needs to get along, be friends and make money.  Every nationality of the world is in Florida USA.  Some are USA citizens and some are not.  We get along, learn from each other and have a stonger country because of it.  Embrace your differences.  You are rebuilding your country and do not have one single person to spare!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 14, 2006, 05:07:35 AM
Quote
Everyone needs to get along, be friends and make money.  Every nationality of the world is in Florida USA.  Some are USA citizens and some are not.  We get along, learn from each other and have a stonger country because of it.  Embrace your differences.  You are rebuilding your country and do not have one single person to spare!

TampaBay


i don't mind the difference. what i do mind is that there are towns in romania where you are ignored if you speak romanian. i mind the fact that (not all but some) romanians of hungarian origin believe transylvania should be separated from romania and/or become part of hungary. i mind the fact that they expect the state to pay not only for junior highs and highschools but also universities in hungarian. no offense, but this is romania, romanian is the official language and no other language is official. it's your right to learn in another language but don't expect me to pay for it. there's no law against creating a private school in another language. i could go on forever. i respect any person as long as they respect me and in this case it's not about us respecting them but about them respecting us.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 14, 2006, 10:33:55 AM
Trust me, we mind a lot of things too. My best friend is Transylvanian Hungarian and she has many sad stories about how she was threated. Of course she is fluent Romanian :P
Dunno, ur words are kinda bitter towards us. But everybody has the right not to like the other one, thank God it is Europe and maybe I can say, that war-times are kinda over here, so unless u just don1t really like Hungarians, its not a loss for me for example sitting here in Budapest and switch of my pc and forget that there is somebody way far from me, who thinks we don't give her the proper respect 8-)

Btw, no offense, but this friend of mine married a British guy and they wanna buy land in Transylvania. So as me and my husband after he gets the family business :) U like it or not, but we all feel very attached to it and I hope we can spend more time there cz its really a beautiful place :)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 15, 2006, 06:31:40 AM
you might have not understood me: i don't mind ALL hungarians. i grew up with my hungarian grandmother, who had lots of hungarian friends, who had granddaughters who were my friends.

however:
what is the point of living in romania if you won't have the decency to speak romanian? romania is not such a developed country to say that life here is better than anywhere else and so on. i don't disagree with a hungarian family speaking in hungarian between themselves but when i go to a shop IN ROMANIA i expect to be served when i ask for something in romanian. and that is something that does not always happen, IN ROMANIA. i think it's a matter of common sense, no bitterness or anything.

as i mentioned in the previous post, it's a matter of respect. my aunt moved to canada and at 40 she struggled to learn french (she moved in quebec) and you must agree that's not easy. THAT is what you do when you live in a country: you adapt. you learn its language, you speak its language at least officially (at the store, at work, in court, no-one's forcing you to speak any other language but your own in your home), you follow its rules. if i go and move to the states i will not apply for a law that would create public schools in romanian. no matter how many romanians back me up. i bet that would be huge scandal, i mean the average american would have to pay for these schools through their taxes. imagine what it would be like if all the nations that live in the states (pretty many) would have free schools in their languages. if i go to the states and wanna learn in romania, i find a sponsor and fund a PRIVATE school in romanian. now apply all i just said to romania and you might see my point.

i have nothing against your friend, you say she speaks romanian, good for her. she has common sense. i have no general prejudice against hungarians. however i am against people who lack decency and elementary common sense.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 15, 2006, 07:48:17 AM
There are shallow people everywhere: when during the communism my friend went to Serbia, she went to a 100% Hungarian place, yet she said, she was sooo overlooked, cz in those days, Yugoslavia was way richer and better than Hungary (with Tito's liberal way), so no matter those were Hungarian too, they RFUSED to talk with her in Hungarian cz she was just a "poor brat"...and the same happened in Slovakia with my mother!! :o
So thats why, some people even in Hungary have a bad opnion about Hungarians over the border, they say, they just blood-suckers who want our money.
No need to say, I don't agree with this, just I gave you an example, that idiots are not against u, because u r Romanian, its just that there are idiots everywhere :-?

Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 15, 2006, 07:52:12 AM
Ok, one more: I had an argument with a Transslyvanian friend of mine (Hungarian), whose mother wanna relocate here in her sixties (i guess)...she lived all her life in Rumania, worked there, everything, but now wanna come here. She is very angry at the Hunarian gov., cz her retirement money would be pretty small-but I ask, why does she expect us to pay it, when she did not contribute here, she did not pay tax here, she did not help to cerate the so-called social net. Again, its obvious I have nothing against my fellow Hungarians over there, just basically we are not that well-to-do to support everybody without getting back some money in the form of tax and other things, even if our heart goes for them and we consider them one of us, Hungarians.
So u can see, we inhretied also a lot of problem with Trianon, what we still need to solve. We just gotta work together.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 15, 2006, 09:49:48 AM
i completely agree with these last few posts. i am aware of the fact that the hungarians who do what i said are complete idiots and that's why they do what they do and not because they are hungarians.

there are also romanians who are complete idiots, and since we are on the topic of hungarian-romanian relationship, i can mention my 100% romanian classmate from highschool who believed all hungarians were in a conspiracy to get romanians, we have to fight them, everything that's going wrong with romania is because of them.

it's a shame that these kind of idiots (hungarians and romanians) are the reason the relationship between romania and hungary is still not as good as it should be.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 15, 2006, 10:51:33 AM
Gotta agree there!
And now I get back to continue my book from Eliade :)
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 15, 2006, 03:38:49 PM
which one? the history of religions or one of his fantastic novels?
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: Nathalie on June 16, 2006, 06:16:41 AM
History of religions and myths-something like this would be the English translation..Its really interesting.
Title: Re: Romania and Transilvania
Post by: ilyala on June 16, 2006, 06:31:04 AM
all history is  :D