Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Felipe II on November 13, 2005, 09:29:55 AM

Title: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Felipe II on November 13, 2005, 09:29:55 AM
The sons of Henri II (1519-1559, king 1547), François II (1544-1560, king 1559), Charles IX (1550-1574, king 1560) and Henri III (1551-1589, king 1574) were tragical figures.

François II - The king who had syphilis
Born 19 Jan 1544 Fontainebleau
Died 5 Dec 1560 Orléans
King of Scotland 1558-1560
King of France 1559-1560

(http://www.ac-strasbourg.fr/pedago/lettres/Victor%20Hugo/Notes/Francois_II.jpg)

He was a child when he became king after the death of his father. He was married to Mary, Queen of Scots, in 1558 and died in 1560.


Charles IX - The king who wanted to hunt
Born 27 Jun 1550 St Germain-en-Laye
Died 30 May 1574 Vincennes
King of France 1560-1574

(http://alain.lubin.free.fr/Charles%20IX.gif)

He didn't reign in fact, his mother Catherine did. Under his reign there was the Bartholomew Night (19 Aug 1572). He was probably a homosexual and died because of pneumonia in 1574 aged 23.


Henri III - The king who was murdered
Born 19 Sept 1551 Fontainebleau
Died 2 Aug 1589 St Cloud
King of Poland 1573-1574/89
King of France 1574-1589

(http://www.nndb.com/people/842/000093563/henri-iii-1-sized.jpg)

The last Valois was an erratic gay. He was his mother's darling and had many affairs with men. In 1589 he was stabed to death by a monk.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: elena_maria_vidal on November 13, 2005, 12:41:50 PM
 I did not know Francois II had syphilus.  :-/ I knew he was ill. Who did he get it from? Do they even know? I never knew he had a mistress....Very sad.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on November 13, 2005, 01:16:43 PM
Did Francois have syphillis ??? He had an ear infection, which I think spread to the mastoid bone (below the ear) and also to the brain causing a lethal abcess. The poor lad died in agony.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexios on November 13, 2005, 01:27:00 PM
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Did Francois have syphillis ??? He had an ear infection, which I think spread to the mastoid bone (below the ear) and also to the brain causing a lethal abcess. The poor lad died in agony.

Yes, that's what I believe too...an ear infection.
I think I read once that the Huguenots commented on this that Henry II didn't want to see the true Christian belief and his son didn't want to hear it...
Actually you ought to say that François II and Charles IX were only kings in name, their mother was the effective ruler, even though at least Charles IX would have been old enough to rule himself, but Catherine easily dominated him. Under Henry III her influence diminished, even though Henry wasn't a strong king.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Felipe II on November 13, 2005, 01:51:20 PM
There is the story that he had an ear infection and the other that he had syphilis:

"Franz war völlig degeneriert und unselbständig und starb an ererbter Syphilis." ("François was completely degenerated and dependent and died of inherited syphilis.") (see here: http://www.mittelalter-genealogie.de/mittelalter/koenige/frankreich/franz_2_koenig_von_frankreich_+_1560.html)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 13, 2005, 01:56:19 PM
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Yes, that's what I believe too...an ear infection.
I think I read once that the Huguenots commented on this that Henry II didn't want to see the true Christian belief and his son didn't want to hear it...
Actually you ought to say that François II and Charles IX were only kings in name, their mother was the effective ruler, even though at least Charles IX would have been old enough to rule himself, but Catherine easily dominated him. Und Henry III her influence diminished, even though Henry wasn't a strong king.


Oh, where to begin.

Francois II didn't have syphilis, he died of an ear infection. Catherine de' Medici had no influence during his reign. He was influenced by the family of his wife  (the Guises).

Charles IX wasn't homosexual. He was dominated by Catherine de' Medicis, though he often quarreled with her as he grew older. He died of Tuberculosis.

Henri III probably was homosexual. He was Catherine's favourite son. He gave up the throne of Poland when he became King of France (i.e. he was not King of Poland until 1589).

Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on November 13, 2005, 01:56:46 PM
Oh sorry Emperor, I don't read or speak German :)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on November 13, 2005, 01:59:14 PM
Thanks Bell, if these boys "inherited " anything,it was chronic respiratory problems.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 13, 2005, 02:03:35 PM
Maybe, but the real King of Poland was Stefan Bathory (1575-1586).

Yes Kimberly, Hercule also died of TB!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Felipe II on November 13, 2005, 02:05:59 PM
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Maybe, but the real King of Poland was Stefan Bathory (1575-1586).

Yes Kimberly, Hercule also died of TB!

Yes, you're completely right, but I only wanted to say that he styled himself king of Poland.
:)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 13, 2005, 02:35:55 PM
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Yes, you're completely right, but I only wanted to say that he styled himself king of Poland.
 :)


I didn't know that he continued to use the title, but it was typical of the man !!
:D
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexios on November 13, 2005, 03:29:57 PM
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Catherine de' Medici had no influence during his reign. He was influenced by the family of his wife  (the Guises).

Well, that might be true, although it was a short period anyway.
"His mother Catherine de Medici was appointed Regent, but it is considered that Mary's uncles François de Guise and Charles de Guise may actually have been the ones to hold the power in that period." (Quote, wikipedia).
But why do you simply say she had no influence?

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Charles IX wasn't homosexual.

What makes you so sure? Did you have a camera installed in his bed-chamber? Perhaps one should be careful and say: He probably wasn't.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 13, 2005, 03:37:03 PM
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Well, that might be true, although it was a short period anyway.
"His mother Catherine de Medici was appointed Regent, but it is considered that Mary's uncles François de Guise and Charles de Guise may actually have been the ones to hold the power in that period." (Quote, wikipedia).
But why do you simply say she had no influence?

What makes you so sure? Did you have a camera installed in his bed-chamber? Perhaps one should be careful and say: He probably wasn't.


Catherine  wasn't appointed regent until after the death of Francis II. Whatever influence she had was the result of her intrigues.

Charles IX was probably not predominantly homosexual, unlike his brother Henri III  ;)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexios on November 13, 2005, 03:44:58 PM
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Catherine  wasn't appointed regent until after the death of Francis II. Whatever influence she had was the result of her intrigues.

Yes, actually I believe she was offically regent 1560-1563 (I was a little astonished to read this in wiki...), since Franics II already was too old for an official regent.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 14, 2005, 04:58:46 AM


I'm delighted, a new thread about this interesting figures!!!

Well, François died from an ear infection. But yes, some historians think that he had congenital syphillis. This theory has also been used to expalin Edward VI's death. Could be true, but it could also be wrong...  We must remember that in those times they already knew the symptoms and consequences of syphillis and not all of the symptoms we know about François II have to nbe necesarilly produced by syphillis. But yes, François was the king, so why should a doctor say publicly that he was sick with syphillis??


About Charles being a homosexual, its not the first time I've heard it. Well, we know that Charles had sexual intercourse with both his wife and his favourite mistress, Marie Touchet. He also had other mistresses and he very probably had an affair with his sister Margot. As Bell said, he was not predominantly homosexual, as was Sandrin, but I wouldn't deny completely that he sometime had a homosexual affair. Remember that the last Valois's Court was full of sex and parties, maybe he just wanted to taste new things... who knows?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 06:19:50 AM
i sincerely doubt the rumours of incest were true. the valois siblings were close to each other but not that close.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 14, 2005, 06:46:29 AM


Well, Margot almost confesses it in her memoirs, can't recall the exact words. And Henry did confess it at a party... yes, I would say that incest did occur.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: ilyala on November 14, 2005, 08:52:56 AM
 :o
where did you read that?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexios on November 14, 2005, 12:03:11 PM
Well, I think Henri III was bisexual and perhaps he preferred males. He had many favourites called "mignons" (and, I think, the most important of them "archimignons").

Although the term just meant "favourite" at the time.
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Une dernière précision, sur le vocabulaire. Au début du XVIème siècle,le terme de mignon est réservé au fils préféré. La jeunesse et l’indulgence paternelle d’Henri III envers ses fidèles les fit surnommer les "mignons" par sa cour, ce qui ne voulait rien dire d’autre que "les favoris". Ce n’est qu’après l’assassinat du roi par un religieux fanatique que le terme de mignon a été utilisé pour désigner le jeune amant d’un homme.


Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on November 14, 2005, 03:15:24 PM
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i sincerely doubt the rumours of incest were true. the valois siblings were close to each other but not that close.

I ahve also read this, it is Margot herelf who intimates that there was an "abnormal" relationship going on here. Read it in Leonie Frieda's biography of Catherine de Mdici..... a right riveting read if I may say ;D
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: ilyala on November 15, 2005, 01:09:59 AM
maybe they were just really really close! maybe there was  some fraternal jealousy! does it really have to mean incest?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 18, 2005, 04:53:08 AM


Yes, it means incest when it was said by the French Court and it was then 'confirmed' by one of the persons which were involved!


About Charles, Alexios, it was Henri who mantained a court of mignons, not Charles!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexios on November 18, 2005, 05:22:16 AM
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Yes, it means incest when it was said by the French Court and it was then 'confirmed' by one of the persons which were involved!


About Charles, Alexios, it was Henri who mantained a court of mignons, not Charles!

Yes, sorry, I've seen the mistake and corrected it.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 18, 2005, 05:25:02 AM


Ok, we agree then in Henri's homosexuality!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 18, 2005, 06:02:57 AM
I've seen it argued that Henri was not homosexual. According to this argument, getting the nobility to dress up in women's clothing was his way of diffusing the political tension caused by the Wars of Religion.

Ingenious! :D
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 18, 2005, 06:16:23 AM


That would have been ingenious, but I think that statement is more than ingenuous! I mean, Henri kissed them in public (not a polite kiss) and they even touched in parties and similar events... so, I don't think it was JUST a political urgency! ;)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 18, 2005, 06:18:53 AM
He was very committed to the peace process!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 18, 2005, 06:19:47 AM

He was, indeed!  ;D
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Felipe II on November 18, 2005, 06:54:21 AM
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Ok, we agree then in Henri's homosexuality!

Was it well-known in on other European courts like Spain?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on November 19, 2005, 11:22:21 AM


Felipe said in a letter that Henri was very peculiar after what he had been told, but I can't remember having read that it was known that he had male "friends". But I imagine it was of common knowledge!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 19, 2005, 01:19:20 PM
Quote

Felipe said in a letter that Henri was very peculiar after what he had been told, but I can't remember having read that it was known that he had male "friends". But I imagine it was of common knowledge!


Yes everyone in Europe knew.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Vasaborg on October 02, 2007, 04:36:14 PM
Can anyone tell me how many natural children Charles IX had?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 02, 2007, 06:59:53 PM
I think there was just Charles, Duc d'Angouleme (1573- 1650), his son by Marie Touchet, who lived into the reign of Louis XIV!
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Vasaborg on October 04, 2007, 01:49:25 PM
Thanks for that information!.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on October 06, 2007, 05:46:15 AM
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Felipe said in a letter that Henri was very peculiar after what he had been told, but I can't remember having read that it was known that he had male "friends". But I imagine it was of common knowledge!
Quote


I found this on Henri III:

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He was his mother's favorite; she called him chers yeux ("Precious Eyes") and lavished her fondness and affection upon him for most of his life. His elder brother Charles grew to detest him, resenting Henry's greater health and activity.

His artistic tastes were a source of concern to the court. Unlike the other men of his family, he showed a marked interest in clothes and fabrics, jewels, lapdogs, and toys. He also had a keen eye for fashions and beauty which in his later years would become an obsession, and constantly appeared elegant and sophisticated, although not always appropriate – on festive occasions, he was known to dress more richly and fantastically than the ladies of the court, adorning himself with jewels and fantastic costumes, prompting the Spanish ambassador, Zuniga, to write to Philip II of Spain, "With all of this he shows who he really is". On another occasion, a ball given by Catherine de' Medici at Chenonceau in June 1577, the King whole-heartedly participated in the theme - transvestism - by wearing "diamonds, emeralds and pearls. His hair was tinted with violet powder and wearing a dress of superb brocade, he made a definite contrast to his wife", who had chosen not to dress in men's clothing.[1]

Prior to ascending the throne, he was a leader of the royal army in the French Wars of Religion against the Huguenots, and took part in the victories over them at Battle of Jarnac and Battle of Moncontour. While still Duke, he instigated the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, in which thousands of Huguenots were killed; his reign as King would see France in constant turmoil over religion.

On August 1, 1589, Henry III lodged with his army at Saint-Cloud, Hauts-de-Seine, prepared to attack Paris, when a young fanatical Dominican friar, Jacques Clément, carrying false papers, was granted access to deliver important documents to the King. The monk gave the King a bundle of papers and stated that he had a secret message to deliver. The King signaled for his attendants to step back for privacy, and Clément whispered in his ear while plunging a knife into his abdomen. Clément was killed on the spot by the guards
Quote

   
    1.. ^ Frieda, Leonie, Catherine de Medici
    2.^ Durant, Will, The Story of Civilization Vol. VII, Chpt. XII, p.361

He was a man of keen intelligence and cultivated mind, and deserves as much as Francis I the title of patron of letters and art. But his incurable indolence and love of pleasure prevented him from taking any active part in affairs. Surrounded by his mignons, he scandalized the people by his effeminate manners. He dressed himself in women's clothes, made a collection of little dogs and hid in the cellars when it thundered. /www.nndb.com/people/842/000093563/

Two sources that mention Henri III...who were his favorite's? Does anyone know?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: umigon on October 06, 2007, 01:44:17 PM


These were some of his mignons, although he had some others:

1. Jean Louis de Nogaret (1554-1642), duc d'Epernon.

2. François d'Or (+1594)

3. Jacques de Lévis (1554-1578), comte de Quélus.

4. Henri de Saint-Sulpice (+1576), baron de St.Sulpice.

5. Anne de Joyeuse (1560-1587), duc de Joyeuse.

6. Louis de Maugiron (+1578)

7. François d'Espinay (1554-1597)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on October 07, 2007, 08:50:34 AM
The Duel of the Mignons

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In April 1578, the rival court parties of Henry III and Duke of Guise decided to reenact the battle of the Horatii and the Curiatii. On 27 April, Jacques de Caylus, Louis de Maugiron and Jean d'Arcès (representing the party of the King) engaged in battle with Charles de Balzac, Ribérac, and Georges de Schomberg (representing the party of the Guises). Maugiron and Schomberg were killed, Ribérac died of wounds the following noon, d'Arcès was wounded in the head and convalesced in a hospital for six weeks, while Caylus sustained as many 19 wounds and passed away after 33 hours of agony. Only Balzac got off with a mere scratch on his arm.
   
This meaningless loss of life impressed itself on the public imagination. Jean Passerat wrote an elegy, Plaintes de Cléophon, on the occasion. In the political treatise Le Theatre de France (1580) the duel was invoked as "the day of the pigs" who "killed each other in the precinct of Saint Paul, serving him in the Muscovite manner".[4] Michel Montaigne decried the event as "une image de lacheté", and Pierre Brantôme connected it with the deplorable spread of the Italian and Gascon manners at Henry's court. The incident accelerated the estrangement between the two Henrys.
Quote

[edit] Notes and references
   1. Katherine B. Crawford, "Love, Sodomy, and Scandal: Controlling the Sexual Reputation of Henry III", Journal of the History of Sexuality 12.4 (October       
       2003 513-542
   2. ^ Quoted in Crawford 2003:524.
   3. ^ Ibid.
   4. ^ Quoted by Nicolas Le Roux in La faveur du roi: mignons et courtisans au temps des derniers Valois. Champ Vallon, 2001. ISBN 2876733110. Page 388.

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The mignons were frivolous and fashionable young men, to whom public malignity attributed heterodox sexuality, rumors that some historians have found to be a factor in the disintegration of the late Valois monarchy
Quote
.

 Looking up some of Henri III favorites like the Duc de Joyeuse
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His massacre of 800 Huguenots during a campaign in Poitou (the massacre de Saint-Eloi, 21 June, 1587) incurred the displeasure of the King. He was received coldly at court and, anxious to be restored to Henry's favour, led royal troops against the king's arch-enemy, Henry of Navarre. He suffered a defeat at the hands of the Huguenots in the Battle of Coutras and was taken prisoner. Although he offered a ransom of 100,000 écus, Joyeuse was killed in revenge for the massacre of Saint-Eloi, as was his 18-year-old brother Claude, lord of Saint-Sauveur. He was childless and was succeeded as Duke of Joyeuse by another brother, François.
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[edit] References    * Pierre de Vaissière, Messieurs de Joyeuse (1560-1615), Paris, Albin Michel, 1926. 352 p.
    * François Puaux, Histoire de la Réformation française, tome II, Paris, Lévy, 1859.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on October 09, 2007, 01:23:12 AM
Do you think Charles IX knew about the plots of his Mother and Brother and was convinced  to join them or was presented with it as an aftermath. Here are two quotes from different Sources on the Huguenot Murders ....What do you think?



Quote
Charles IX did not long survive the Massacre. He had always been fragile, both emotionally and physically: Emotionally, his moods now swung from coarse boasting about the extremity of the Massacre, to claims that the screams of the murdered Huguenots kept ringing in his ears. Frantically he blamed his mother: "Who but you is the cause of all of this? God's blood, you are the cause of it all!" The Queen-mother responded by declaring she had a lunatic for a son. Will Durant, The Story of Civilization, Vol. VII, Chpt. XIII, p.355

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Catherine, with the help of his other son Henri, convinced Charles IX for the elimination of all counts Protestants. Ce massacre qui eut lieu lors de la Saint-Barthélemy 1572 s'emballa avec la participation de tout le peuple et s'étandit à toute la France. The massacre which took place at the Saint s'emballa in 1572 with the participation of the entire people and s'étandit across France.
rom a French site http://www.publius-historicus.com/charles9.htm


Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Vasaborg on October 12, 2007, 03:05:54 PM
Can anyone tell me if Francis (the only son of King Henry II not to become King) had any natural children?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on October 13, 2007, 03:38:58 AM
Henry II was succeeded by his son, Francis II.

 Francis II :Reigned 1559-1560   King Consort of Scotland 1558-1560

Quote
His marriage to Mary Stuart was arranged by his father in 1548 when Francis was four years old. Mary had been crowned Queen of Scots in Stirling Castle on September 9, 1543, at the age of nine months. Once the marriage agreement had been formally ratified, in 1548 the six-year-old Mary was sent to France, to be raised in the royal court until the marriage. Despite the fact that Mary was tall for her age and fluent in speech while Francis was abnormally short and stuttered, Henry II said that "from the very first day they met, my son and she got on as well together as if they had known each other for a long time".[1]

On April 24, 1558, the fourteen-year-old Dauphin was married to Mary in a union that would give the future King of France the throne of Scotland and a claim to the throne of England. They had no children.

A year after his marriage, Francis's father, Henry II, died, and Francis, still only fifteen years old, was crowned king at Reims. The crown was so heavy that nobles had to hold it in place for him.[2] His mother, Catherine de Medici, was appointed regent, but it is considered that Mary's uncles François de Guise and Charles de Guise may have held the real power in that period.

Francis II, who had always been a sickly child, died on 5 December 1560 in Orléans, Loiret, at the age of sixteen, when an ear infection worsened and caused an abscess in his brain. He is buried in Saint Denis Basilica.


I have not found any record of natural children.  As He was 14 when he Married I doubt it. He was controlled by his Mother and sickly. He still looks very young.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II_of_France
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Vasaborg on October 13, 2007, 04:10:38 PM
Henry II had two sons named Francis , one became King the other died in 1584, (he was born in 1555). I was wondering what he died of and if he had any natural children.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: bell_the_cat on October 27, 2007, 07:51:47 AM
Hi Vasaborg!

You are referring to Francois Hercule, Catherine's youngest son, and the intermittent suitor of Elizabeth of England. Unlike his brother Charles, he had no children, but like him, he died of tuberculosis.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on July 16, 2009, 08:45:21 AM
Hi all.Having just read Leonie Frieda's bio of Catherine de Medici and also Haldane's bio of Margot de Valois, I thought it would be fascinating to have a look at the offspring of Henri II and Catherine.
Francois II (1544- 1560) m Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots.
Elisabeth   (1545-1568) m Philip II King of Spain.
Claude      (1547-1575) m charles Duke of Lorraine.
Louis        (1549).
Charles IX (1550-1574) m Elizabeth of Austria.
Henri III (Edouarde-Alexandre) (1551-1589) m Louise de Vaudemont-Lorraine.
Marguerite (Margot) (1553-1615) m Henri de Navarre.
Francois- Hercules (1555-1584) Duc de Alencon.
Victoire and Jeanne-twins (1556).

What an unhealthy, toxic bunch they were.
Anyone have any comments or thoughts about the last of the Valois?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Vecchiolarry on July 16, 2009, 10:35:17 AM
Hi,

An interesting bunch....
One would have thought that these children and so many of them (10) would have continued the Valois into several more centuries.  Considering that Henry II and Catherine de Medici were strong & healthy persons for 16th century conditions, it's remarkable that their children were so sickly and perverse that they never produced an heir!!!

Oh well, goodbye Valois, hello Bourbon!!!

Larry
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Kimberly on July 16, 2009, 02:03:48 PM
Yes, only Claude and Elisabeth produced heirs from the right side of the blanket!
Charles IX had a daughter with his queen who survived into early childhood and an illegitimate son-Charles de Valois, who lived to a ripe old age.
Henri III's queen suffered a miscarriage and didnot conceive again. Now THAT was an interesting relationship in that Louise adored him and he treated her like a doll. It is said that their wedding had to be delayed until the evening because Henri insisted on doing her "coiffure" !!
do you think that the health problems suffered by these Valois' was Tuberculosis...or something else?

Francois died from mastoiditis (which I am sure lead at least to a brain abcess, if not full blown meningitis).
Charles IX supposedly died of TB and Henri III (assassinated) had a chronic suppurating fistula between his eye and his nose.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Veronica on July 16, 2009, 03:34:23 PM
Henry II and Catherine de Medici were strong & healthy persons for 16th century conditions...

Catherine even survived the birth of the twins, that was a terrible ordeal... One of the babies had to be dismembered in order to take her out of the womb. 
I wonder myself why Henry and Catherine's children were so weak, that only Margot lived to see the next century.
Interesting people...
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on July 24, 2009, 04:33:18 AM
Henri III and his spouse Louise de Lorraine-Vaudémont (30 April 1553 – 29 January 1601 really were an interesting couple. According to some sources he married her because She resembled the Princess de Conde Marie de Clèves, whom he had a great infatuation for but  died. Although the Princess de Conde was married some sources claim he planned to have her divorced the year he took the throne!!   Louise greatly resembled her... was supposed to have been Blonde, beautiful and sweet natured! In her painting She looks like a redhead!! Maybe She was a titian blonde? He apparently treated her like a Doll and although the only pregnancy had ended in miscarriage ...if he had not been stabbed to death I wonder if they might have produced any children? The pressure on Louise to bear a child was so great that apparently it drove her to fits of depression! But his death ended any chance if there ever was one!
He was his Mother's favorite
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in 1564 his name became Henri. He was his mother's favorite; she called him chers yeux ("Precious Eyes") and lavished her fondness and affection upon him for most of his life. His elder brother Charles grew to detest him, resenting Henry's greater health and activity.
Quote
when he died he was 38.

Leonie Frieda in Catherine de Medici mentions that story Kimberly told us "The wedding took place on 13 February 1575, two days after Henry's coronation. It was marked, typically for her husband, by a strong element of farce; the King not only designing her dresses and costumes himself, but delaying the wedding – scheduled for the morning – until the evening because he had spent several hours personally dressing her hair. The couple were finally married at the Cathedral of Reims by Cardinal Charles de Bourbon that evening."

portrait of Louise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louise_Lorraine.jpg




http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/lothringen/lothringen3/1553%2520Louise.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.royaltyguide.nl/families/valois/valois.htm&usg=___3NxilnBRLQbbDnTFz_uWvVxLRI=&h=423&w=346&sz=43&hl=en&start=20&um=1&tbnid=YR9BrbpvAqWZeM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=103&prev=/images%3Fq%3DHenri%2BIII%2Bof%2BFrance%2B1551-1589%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: imperial angel on July 25, 2009, 10:42:23 AM
I have always found Catharine de Medici very interesting. She has often been described as a very manipulative woman, and this reputation has made her seen to be a villain of history quite a bit. She had little power in her husband's reign because he was dominated by his mistress Diane de Poitiers. But she certainly was never far from power during the reigns of her sons. She and Henri had a hard time producing children at first interestingly enough, and I think there was even talk of having him divorce Catharine and get a more fertile wife. They ended up having many children, but no descendents on the French throne, which is what would have happened anyway had Catharine had no children, so the Valois were doomed either way. Do the two daughters Claude and Elisabeth had descendents down to the present day, and who are some of them?
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Mari on July 30, 2009, 03:30:52 AM
Through the turns and twists of Claude descendants I found this and this is just one line

Starting with Claude of Valois
Henry II Duke of Lorraine
Claude de Lorraine 1612-1648
Charles V Duke of Lorraine 1643-1690
Leopold Duke of Lorraine 1679-1729
Francis I Holy Roman Emperor 1708-1765
Maria Carolina of Austria 1752-1814 Queen Consort of Naples and
Maria Theresa of Naples and Sicily (6 June 1772 – 13 April 1807) Empress of Austria
Archduke Franz Karl Joseph of Austria (17 December 1802 – 8 March 1878)
Franz Joseph I Emperor of Austria, reigned from 1848 until 1916 and King of Hungary from 1867 until 1916
Gisela Louise Marie, Princess Imperial and Archduchess of Austria, Princess of Hungary and Bohemia, Princess of Bavaria (12 July 1856 - 27 July 1932)
Princess Augusta of Bavaria (German: Auguste Maria Luise Prinzessin von Bayern) (April 28, 1875 - June 25, 1964) was a member of the Bavarian Royal House of Wittelsbach and the spouse of Archduke Joseph August of Austria.
Archduke Joseph Francis of Austria 1895-1957 Archduke of Austria
and then
Geza von Habsburg, born 1940 who is the above son of Archduke Joseph Francis of Austria (1895-1957) and his wife Princess Anna of Saxony (1903-1976) thus he is a grandson of King Frederick Augustus III of Saxony and great-great grandson (on his father's mother's side) of Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria and his wife Elisabeth of Bavaria (Sissi). He is a Fabergé expert and has published many books and articles on the jewellers Peter Carl Fabergé and Victor Mayer. He is the curator of several mayor international Fabergé exhibitions.
His first marriage, in 1965, was to Monika Decker (Born 1939) produced three sons:

    * Franz Ferdinand (Born 1967)
    * Ferdinand Leopold (Born 1969) He is currently working for UNDP in Southern Sudan
    * Maximilian Philip (Born 1974)

They were divorced in 1991.

His second marriage, in 1991, was to Elizabeth Jane Kunstadter (Born 1957) produced a daughter:

    * Isabella Maria Luisa (Born 1996)
 
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: imperial angel on July 30, 2009, 08:20:08 AM
Did the French Royal Family end up being descended from Catharine de Medici before the French Revolution through intermarriage with other dynasties? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Terence on July 30, 2009, 10:29:24 PM
Did the French Royal Family end up being descended from Catharine de Medici before the French Revolution through intermarriage with other dynasties? I'm not sure.

Interesting question.  Besides the above example there are many around currently descended from Catharine De Medici, including Dr. Otto von Habsburg, the current Luxembourg royal family and the Savoys.

But to your question, here's one line of descent, there may be others but it took me a while to figure out this one.  I'd be interested if someone can find a closer link between Catherine and the later Bourbon kings...

Henri II & Catherine de Medici>Elizabeth de Valois>Catalina Michaella of Spain>Vittorio Amandeo of Savoy>Adelaide Henrietta of Savoy>Maria Anna of Bavaria>Louis, duc de Bourgogne>Louis XV

It's amazing how all these people are related.  I just discovered that thru Jean de Bourbon, Comte de Vendome...Catherine de Medici, Henri IV of France and Mary of Guise (mother of Mary, Queen of Scots) were all second cousins.

Regards,
T

Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: imperial angel on July 31, 2009, 02:16:19 PM
Thanks. Yes, they were all related to each other through all the intermarriage.Marie Antoinette was of course related to Catharine de Medici through Catharine's daughter Claude with the Lorraine line, since MA was the daughter of Maria Theresa of Austria and Francis, Duke of Lorraine.
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: An Ard Rí on April 28, 2010, 10:31:56 AM
Anything to do with Catherine captivates my mind,I'm also very interested in the lives of her children
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Marc on April 28, 2010, 07:40:57 PM
Thanks. Yes, they were all related to each other through all the intermarriage.Marie Antoinette was of course related to Catharine de Medici through Catharine's daughter Claude with the Lorraine line, since MA was the daughter of Maria Theresa of Austria and Francis, Duke of Lorraine.

Of course,MA was in fact descendant of Catherine d'Medici through daughter Claude of Lorraine...
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: An Ard Rí on May 10, 2010, 07:16:12 AM
Christina of Lorraine was a favourite grandchild of Queen Catherine de Medici

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_of_Lorraine
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 18, 2010, 09:29:18 AM
The eldest of Catherine and Henri II's surviving children, King Francis II of France and his wife Mary Queen of Scots.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/Francois_Second_Mary_Stuart.jpg)

Their eldest daughter, Elisabeth, who became queen of Spain and Phillip II's third wife at age 13.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/ElisabethdeValoisbyClouet.jpg)

Claude de Valois, who married Charles III, Duke of Lorraine, and had several children. 
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/Claude_of_Valois1.jpg)

The second son to become king, Charles IX and his wife Elisabeth Archduchess of Austria.  Charles looks much older than twenty-four, perhaps as a result of the ravages of tuberculosis.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/CharlesElisabeth.jpg)

Catherine de Medici's favorite son, Henri III King of France, born Alexandre Edouard.  He was elected King of Poland. 
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/HenriIII.jpg)


Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: LenelorMiksi on September 18, 2010, 09:34:52 AM
Marguerite, called Margot, who married Henry IV King of Navarre and then France. She resembles her sister Claude.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/MargotdeValois.jpg)


The youngest son, Francis Duke of Anjou and Alençon, born Hercule François.
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b378/LenelorMiksi/FrancisdAlencon.jpg)
Title: Re: The children of Henri II and Catherine de Medici
Post by: Alexandrina-Sofia on July 25, 2011, 09:53:25 AM
Marie Elisabeth of Valois (27 October 1572 – 9 April 1578) was the only child of Charles IX of France and Elisabeth of Austria.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Marie_Elisabeth_de_Valois_Clouet.jpg)