Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Annie on December 30, 2005, 08:24:20 PM

Title: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on December 30, 2005, 08:24:20 PM
I have always wondered why there haven't been more claimants and survivor rumors on GD Michael/Mikhail/Mischa, the Tsar's younger brother, since his body was never found.

Here is something I found in the book "Memories of the Russian Court" by Anna Vryobova, written in 1923. She had been imprisoned many times by both the Provisional Gov't and the Bolsheviks, and spent much time hiding from them. She met a lot of strange people who had been through a lot in that time period too. Here is something one of them told her, take it for what it's worth, might be a fun distraction from all the worn out old AA rehashing. From Chapter 22 of her memoirs:

The most fantastic contradictions concerning all these alleged murders have from time to time cropped up. When I was in prison in the autumn of 1919 a fellow prisoner of the Chekha, the wife of an aide-de-camp of Grand Duke Mikhail, told me positively that she had received a letter from the Emperor's brother, safe and well in England.

Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: calebGmoney on December 30, 2005, 09:38:56 PM
Quote
I have always wondered why there haven't been more claimants and survivor rumors on GD Michael/Mikhail/Mischa, the Tsar's younger brother, since his body was never found.

Here is something I found in the book "Memories of the Russian Court" by Anna Vryobova, written in 1923. She had been imprisoned many times by boht the Provisional Gov't and the Bolsheviks, and spent much time hiding from them. She met a lot of strange people who had been through a lot in that time period too. Here is something one of them told her, take it for what it's worth, might be a fun distraction from all the worn out old AA rehashing. From Chapter 22 of her memoirs:

The most fantastic contradictions concerning all these alleged murders have from time to time cropped up. When I was in prison in the autumn of 1919 a fellow prisoner of the Chekha, the wife of an aide-de-camp of Grand Duke Mikhail, told me positively that she had received a letter from the Emperor's brother, safe and well in England.

LOL I was a bit worried this was a thread about that CIA agent who said he was Alexis. I guess the reason there were no claims to be Michael is because he was not a young child. It's strange how his body has never been found. We don't even know when, how, or if he died, although we have been told he was shot.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on December 31, 2005, 04:46:08 AM
British intelligence sources put Michael at Omsk heading a counter-revolutionary movement in the summer of 1918.  they also seem to have thought he was connected with the White coup that opened up Archangel to the allied fleet in August 1918.  Certainly I have seen signals regarding both, though the first turns out to be based on a story from a Swedish businessman who was in Siberia at the time.

One day, when I've time I shall have to look at the Archangel papers again.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: cimbrio on December 31, 2005, 10:16:33 AM
I suppose that had Michael survived he would have made it public, unless he remained in the USSR and could not openly admit he was a Grand Duke (for obvious reasons). Nevertheless, if so little is known about his death (of which I know very little), and if his body along with his secretary's was burned, I suppose it'd be fairly difficult to find ashed in a forest, maybe a few feet below the ground...
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: calebGmoney on December 31, 2005, 04:06:49 PM
Quote
I suppose that had Michael survived he would have made it public,

Very true
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on December 31, 2005, 07:31:48 PM
Quote
Very true



Not necessarily. If I had a 'hit' on my head, the last thing I'd ever want is to be found out and make a public spectacle of myself in the media and in courts! That's why I believe if anyone did survive, they'd have remained obscure for their own safety.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: calebGmoney on December 31, 2005, 11:52:32 PM
Quote


Not necessarily. If I had a 'hit' on my head, the last thing I'd ever want is to be found out and make a public spectacle of myself in the media and in courts! That's why I believe if anyone did survive, they'd have remained obscure for their own safety.
Perhaps you would, but personally I would want recognition as a survivor.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on January 01, 2006, 08:15:06 AM
Even at the expense of being killed, and no longer being a survivor, spending your whole life in hiding?
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 01, 2006, 01:31:43 PM
I don't think that Michael survived, but I do think that it is worth addressing this whole question of "being killed", "hunted down", etc., because it comes up a lot. Can anyone name a single Romanov that made it out of the country, with a chance of royal succession (Nikolasha, Kyril, perhaps Sandro and Ksenia's children, etc.) who was ever assassinated by Soviet agents?

Most of the Romanovs that survived the Revolution led very public lives, as in they moved about freely. No one ever put a hit on, say, Dmitri or Felix and Irina.  Don't you think that this is because Lenin, and then Stalin, considered the Imperial Family irrelevant? It seems to me, anyway, that they shot the people they held captive, as an act of spite rather than a considered political policy that carried on throughout the twenties and thirties.

Regards

Simon
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 04, 2006, 12:34:14 PM
Quote
I have always wondered why there haven't been more claimants and survivor rumors on GD Michael/Mikhail/Mischa, the Tsar's younger brother, since his body was never found.

Here is something I found in the book "Memories of the Russian Court" by Anna Vryobova, written in 1923. She had been imprisoned many times by boht the Provisional Gov't and the Bolsheviks, and spent much time hiding from them. She met a lot of strange people who had been through a lot in that time period too. Here is something one of them told her, take it for what it's worth, might be a fun distraction from all the worn out old AA rehashing. From Chapter 22 of her memoirs:

The most fantastic contradictions concerning all these alleged murders have from time to time cropped up. When I was in prison in the autumn of 1919 a fellow prisoner of the Chekha, the wife of an aide-de-camp of Grand Duke Mikhail, told me positively that she had received a letter from the Emperor's brother, safe and well in England.



Do you have the name of the wife of an aide-de-camp of GD Mikhail?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 04, 2006, 01:07:48 PM
Quote
I don't think that Michael survived, but I do think that it is worth addressing this whole question of "being killed", "hunted down", etc., because it comes up a lot. Can anyone name a single Romanov that made it out of the country, with a chance of royal succession (Nikolasha, Kyril, perhaps Sandro and Ksenia's children, etc.) who was ever assassinated by Soviet agents?

Most of the Romanovs that survived the Revolution led very public lives, as in they moved about freely. No one ever put a hit on, say, Dmitri or Felix and Irina.  Don't you think that this is because Lenin, and then Stalin, considered the Imperial Family irrelevant? It seems to me, anyway, that they shot the people they held captive, as an act of spite rather than a considered political policy that carried on throughout the twenties and thirties.

Regards

Simon


I don't think Tsar Outside of Russia Kyrill was much of a threat.  However, the tall one, GD Nicholas, was.  I believe he  constantly went into hiding or if he wasn't in hiding was highly protected because everyone knew that he might be able to lead forces against the Bolsheviks in those early times.

The various White military leaders,  who remained and fought in Russia,   are more widely known, and, those who managed to survive and go into exile were more of a threat than the Romanovs.  

It appears to me  not many posters have read about the various groups of Russians who were hoping to return to Russia and eliminate the Bolsheviks.

If you ever get a chance, watch the PBS series on Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies.  He was constantly in the mix of the anti-Bolhsevik plots.  Whomever it was who put togather the series seem to have had an excellent expert on those times [clothes, cars, furniture, buildings, etc.] in Europe and Russia.

The Bolshevik's CHEKA leader Felix Dzerzhinsky and some other chap,  I've forgotten his name at the moment,  organized a Bolshevik Front known as the TRUST.  This organization brought in all the anti-Bolshevik leaders and others interested in defeating the Bolsheviks who were not aware that the TRUST was laden with Bolshevik agents who reported back to Dzerzhinsky each and all plots of any kind.

The success of the TRUST for the Bolsheviks was unbelieveable.

It also worked in reverse p. 495 ALEXANDER ORLOV: THE FBI'S KGB GENERAL by Eduard Gazur:

>>The fictitious creation came to be known as the TRUST, after the Russian word "Trest", the so-called 'Monarchist Organisation of Central Russia', and became the vehicle which fed misinformation to the Western Powers.  In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.  Sidney Reilly and Boris Savinkov, the fanatical White Russian General who ran the anti-Bolshevik organisation People's Union for the Defense of the Homeland and Freedom from abroad, would both be successfully lured back to Russia and their deaths by the TRUST.  The third prize target of the TRUST was General Kutyepov, the head of the ROVS, who was kidnapped off the streets of Paris in 1930 by the KBG and was eliminated.<<

Also, remember  p. 494:

>>The period in question is shortly before and after the end of the Russian Civil War in 1920, which was a time of turbulence when the fate of the newly formed Soviet Government hung in the balance and only a slight push could bring it down.<<

>>...Felix Dzerzhinsky correctly calculated that its immediate enemy was the leaders and remanants of the defeated White Army, who continued to pose a thread to the Soviet Union.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 04, 2006, 02:19:46 PM
Bear

Reilly Ace of Spies is excellent television but not necessarily even close to the truth about this most remarkable man or intelligence operations in the period.

The TRUST operation is as much a creation of KGB mythmakers in the 1950's and 60's as it is the truth.  It is often said that British intelligence were fooled by the TRUST who fed them false information via their White stooges.  In fact the British seem to have cottoned on failry quickly to the Whites being infiltrated.  I have somewhere in my files a Foreign Office request for information on the White Movement where one FO chap asks "which would be the best source of information on the Whites?" and another minutes back something along the lines of "Shame we can't ask the Reds as they have them penetrated at every level".

Having said that, as well as Kutyepov the OGPU also kidnapped General Miller (his successor) from Paris and took him back to the USSR for Stalin's pleasure.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 04, 2006, 03:35:14 PM
Quote

I don't think Tsar Outside of Russia Kyrill was much of a threat.  However, the tall one, GD Nicholas, was.  I believe he  constantly went into hiding or if he wasn't in hiding was highly protected because everyone knew that he might be able to lead forces against the Bolsheviks in those early times.

The various White military leaders,  who remained and fought in Russia,   are more widely known, and, those who managed to survive and go into exile were more of a threat than the Romanovs.  

It appears to me  not many posters have read about the various groups of Russians who were hoping to return to Russia and eliminate the Bolsheviks.

If you ever get a chance, watch the PBS series on Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies.  He was constantly in the mix of the anti-Bolhsevik plots.  Whomeever put togather the series seem to have had an excellent expert on those times in Europe and Russia.

The Bolshevik's CHEKA leader Felix Dzerzhinsky and some other chap,  I've forgotten his name at the moment,  organized a Bolshevik Front known as the TRUST.  This organization brought in all the anti-Bolshevik leaders and others interested in defeating the Bolsheviks who were not aware that the TRUST was laden with Bolshevik agents who reported back to Dzerzhinsky each and all plots of any kind.

The success of the TRUST for the Bolsheviks was unbelieveable.

It also worked in reverse p. 495 ALEXANDER ORLOV: THE FBI'S KGB GENERAL by Eduard Gazur:

>>The fictitious creation came to be known as the TRUST, after the Russian word "Trest", the so-called 'Monarchist Organisation of Central Russia', and became the vehicle which fed misinformation to the Western Powers.  In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.  Sidney Reilly and Boris Savinkov, the fanatical White Russian General who ran the anti-Bolshevik organisation People's Union for the Defense of the Homeland and Freedom from abroad, would both be successfully lured back to Russia and their deaths by the TRUST.  The third prize target of the TRUST was General Kutyepov, the head of the ROVS, who was kidnapped off the streets of Paris in 1930 by the KBG and was eliminated.<<

Also, remember  p. 494:

>>The period in question is shortly before and after the end of the Russian Civil War in 1920, which was a time of turbulence when the fate of the newly formed Soviet Government hung in the balance and only a slight push could bring it down.<<

>>...Felix Dzerzhinsky correctly calculated that its immediate enemy was the leaders and remanants of the defeated White Army, who continued to pose a thread to the Soviet Union.<<

AGRBear


Bear,

In fact, Grand Duke Nicholas lived openly in France. I am curious. Why do you assume that former White Army generals were more threatening to the Communist government that members of the Imperial Family? In fact, I think you may be correct, since as Phil points out, the ones repatriated against their will to Russia were, in fact, not Romanovs. Which the point that I was trying to make in my other post. Why do we assume that there was a need for Anna Andersen to hide, if she was Anastasia? In fact, no Romanov was "hunted down".

I will go back and watch the television series, if you think it is an acceptable source of information.


Simon
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 04, 2006, 04:02:24 PM
It's been too long since I've seen the PBS Reilly series to comment on how accurate it was about everything, but,  I really enjoyed it and it gave me a general sense of what was happening in those times as Lockhardt  saw it and embelished upon.

Where the truth lies about Reilly, only Reilly knew.

Bruce Lockhardt wrote about him,  Reilly wrote about himself and Richard B. Spence's book TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY gives us more insight on Reilly and  those times.  Including the TRUST p. 338:
>>....to be dubbed the "Trust" (Trest).  While most of its rank and file would be legitimate monarchists, thus flushing them out of the woodwork, the key positions would be held by Chekists and "reliable" operatives.  They, in turn, would be used to divert and infiltrate emigre groups and foreign intelligence services back them.  By one means or another, Yakushev agreed to cooperate and set up the metting for Kolesnikov, in reality a Polish Chekists named Stretkovich.<<

There were Polish Chekists.  

How much the SIS knew, wished they knew or didn't know about the TRUST in it's early stages should be a book all to itself.  How THE SIS reacted once this information reached their boss and what agents SIS used to combat the TRUST is worth a couple of dozen more books,  I'm sure.

THE CHEKA, LENIN'S POLICIAL POLICE by George Leggett, p. 294
>>...Lenin had instructed Dzerzhinsky to devise means of neutralising the machinations of such emigre bodies, and ways of preventing the creation of emigre combat units capable of effecting trans-border raids into Soviet territory.  In pompt responce on 5 December, Dzerzhinsky issued a secret directive order that 'for the detection of foreign agencies in our territories there be organissed pretended White Guard Associations', their purpose being to penetrate the most hostile emigre groups and lure their agents back to Russia; this was the provocation gambit which would develope into the classic Soviet deception opersations, Sidikat-2 and the  Trust, master-minded by KRO in the early 1920s, Dzerzhinsky'[s directive further proposed an increase in the number os hostages taken from the relatives in Russia of prominent emigres, and the formation of special detachments intended to carry out acts of terrorism against enemies of the Soviet sate living on foreign soil.<<

Perhaps Phil or another poster  knows if any situations of  "hostages" of the Romanov family who were taken and used in these agressive acts of the CHEKA's  Sidikat-2 and TRUST.  At the moment,  I do not know or remember any but then my knowledge is limited on the extended Romanov families.

The book  mentions "prominent emigres".   Does anyone have any idea who they were?  Perhaps direct us toward their stories.  

Thanks.

AGRBear

PS:  
KRO = Kontr-Razvedyvatelnyi Ordei = Counter-Espionage Department
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: cimbrio on January 04, 2006, 04:05:41 PM
I think both lenin and Stalin must have felt their power fairly stable in the USSR... and if they wanted any of the Romanovs killed, in mi opinion they could have done it... look at how Staling had Trotsky killed, and in Mexico! I don't think Misha would have kept his identity a secret (if he escaped the USSR, ahd he lived); he would have inherited a fair amount of money and would no doubt be politically relevant... and I agree, the other Romanovs led public lives till their deaths, including the Tsar's sisters. Had he remained in Russia (had he lived) he would certainly have kept it a secret...
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 04, 2006, 05:06:11 PM
Quote

Bear,

In fact, Grand Duke Nicholas lived openly in France. I am curious. Why do you assume that former White Army generals were more threatening to the Communist government that members of the Imperial Family? In fact, I think you may be correct, since as Phil points out, the ones repatriated against their will to Russia were, in fact, not Romanovs. Which the point that I was trying to make in my other post. Why do we assume that there was a need for Anna Andersen to hide, if she was Anastasia? In fact, no Romanov was "hunted down".

I will go back and watch the television series, if you think it is an acceptable source of information.


Simon


I'd trust Phil's comments on the tv series because he's more in tune to the British history than I.  

Would I use the tv series for a source.?   I'd not use it as a historical source anymore than I would most tv series and movies where entertainment is the main reason they are created.

Revised:
Quote
If you ever get a chance, watch the PBS series on Sidney Reilly, Ace of Spies.  He was constantly in the mix of the anti-Bolhsevik plots.  Whomever it was who put togather the series seem to have had an excellent expert on those times [clothes, cars, furniture, buildings, etc.] in Europe and Russia.



AGRBear


Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 04, 2006, 06:11:35 PM
Bear:

Cf. The Flight of the Romanovs, there were no Romanov "hostages" taken by the Soviets once they had cleared the country. The hostages within the country --- the Imperial Family itself, Grand Duke Michael, Grand Duchess Ella, their companions, the three Grand Dukes executed in 1919 in Petersburg, a few others --- were executed.

It is obvious that had they wished to kill or kidnap Romanovs, they could have done so, since they were able to remove other opponents from foreign soil.

All of this is not to say that the woman impersonating Anastasia may have indeed felt threatened by what she assumed would be their response.

It just wasn't their response.

Simon
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 04, 2006, 06:16:10 PM
Quote
Bruce Lockhardt wrote about him,  Reilly wrote about himself and Richard B. Spence's book TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY gives us more insight on Reilly and  those times.  Including the TRUST p. 338:
>>....to be dubbed the "Trust" (Trest).  While most of its rank and file would be legitimate monarchists, thus flushing them out of the woodwork, the key positions would be held by Chekists and "reliable" operatives.  They, in turn, would be used to divert and infiltrate emigre groups and foreign intelligence services back them.  By one means or another, Yakushev agreed to cooperate and set up the metting for Kolesnikov, in reality a Polish Chekists named Stretkovich.<<
 
There were Polish Chekists.  
 
How much the SIS knew, wished they knew or didn't know about the TRUST in it's early stages should be a book all to itself.  How THE SIS reacted once this information reached their boss and what agents SIS used to combat the TRUST is worth a couple of dozen more books,  I'm sure.
 
 THE CHEKA, LENIN'S POLICIAL POLICE by George Leggett, p. 294
>>...Lenin had instructed Dzerzhinsky to devise means of neutralising the machinations of such emigre bodies, and ways of preventing the creation of emigre combat units capable of effecting trans-border raids into Soviet territory.  In pompt responce on 5 December, Dzerzhinsky issued a secret directive order that 'for the detection of foreign agencies in our territories there be organissed pretended White Guard Associations', their purpose being to penetrate the most hostile emigre groups and lure their agents back to Russia; this was the provocation gambit which would develope into the classic Soviet deception opersations, Sidikat-2 and the  Trust, master-minded by KRO in the early 1920s, Dzerzhinsky'[s directive further proposed an increase in the number os hostages taken from the relatives in Russia of prominent emigres, and the formation of special detachments intended to carry out acts of terrorism against enemies of the Soviet sate living on foreign soil.<<


All of this seems to have been written in the future conditional, i.e. these things were "proposed", "there be organised pretended White"; does this source actually say that these things were done? My impression from Phil's post is that there was a lot of disinformation put out about TRUST at a later date.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 04, 2006, 06:28:45 PM
Bear:
Quote
>>It also worked in reverse p. 495 ALEXANDER ORLOV: THE FBI'S KGB GENERAL by Eduard Gazur:
 
>>The fictitious creation came to be known as the TRUST, after the Russian word "Trest", the so-called 'Monarchist Organisation of Central Russia', and became the vehicle which fed misinformation to the Western Powers.  In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.  Sidney Reilly and Boris Savinkov, the fanatical White Russian General who ran the anti-Bolshevik organisation People's Union for the Defense of the Homeland and Freedom from abroad, would both be successfully lured back to Russia and their deaths by the TRUST.  The third prize target of the TRUST was General Kutyepov, the head of the ROVS, who was kidnapped off the streets of Paris in 1930 by the KBG and was eliminated.<<



Quote

Having said that, as well as Kutyepov the OGPU also kidnapped General Miller (his successor) from Paris and took him back to the USSR for Stalin's pleasure.

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 04, 2006, 09:54:42 PM
Quote
In time, th TRUST was the avenue by which the prime enemies of the state were lured back to Russia and executed.



So the conclusion is then that the Romanovs were not viewed as the prime enemies of the state during the 1920-1940 period, since the alleged TRUST did not spend time luring them back into Soviet control.

Which I think also undercuts the idea that there was vast amounts of Tsarist money abroad. Surely this would have made someone like, say, Maria Feodorovna, a prime target for Soviet agents, no? Kidnap the heirs to the Tsar and hold them hostage until the funds were released?
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: AGRBear on January 05, 2006, 11:29:01 AM
Only if they had known where the money was and it's obvious that no one but Nicholas II and maybe Alexandra knew where they placed any money.

The only time I remember a spark of interest is when.....


Well,  we have gotten off the subject about Michael living in England.

There is a thread about What Would Anastasia Inherited If She Had Survived:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1098804752;start=0#0

We can go talk there about money hidden in foreign countires over there.

From what I can gather,  GD Nicholas was the only Romanov who sparked any kind of serious interest in Moscow.

Perhaps Phil can answer your question better than I.

I'd love to know more about GD Nicholas anti-Bolshevik actitities after he left Russia.  


AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: ALEXEI_P on January 13, 2006, 06:08:15 PM
AGRBear,

Have your read "The Flight of the Romanovs'(Perry/Pleshankov-Basic Books 1999)?  There is some information on NN and the Bolsheviks there.  I found it to be a very interesting book in general.

Alexei
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Amanda_Misha on March 14, 2007, 02:50:56 PM
I read in one it paginates a little of internet strange that Michael didn't die that I am able to escape wounded and I arrive at a monastery where they changed their identity and he lived as monk until they send it to a field of Stanlin and it dies there for the conditions of the place.
This it is the first link where it begins this history  http://www.philosophi.org/lasttsar.htm
and in this he comes the continuation and the comparison of the pictures among Michael and the monk that said it was the one
http://www.philosophi.org/russkiy_tsar.htm
In my opinion I don't believe in this plaintiff if Michael had survived monk had not been made, he would have returned beside Nathasa and of George, it is very similar to the story that Anastasia survived and nun became.
 ¿You that they say on this case?
 :)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: dmitri on April 26, 2007, 01:44:16 AM
I guess Johnson survived as well. What a joke! They both were shot to death.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Lemur on April 26, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
I guess Johnson survived as well. What a joke! They both were shot to death.

Is there any proof they died? No one ever found the bodies ;)

This is an interesting tale though, and a nice fresh change from all the Anna Anderson redundancy. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Amanda_Misha on May 29, 2007, 08:00:00 PM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 01, 2007, 02:18:25 AM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 01, 2007, 02:43:33 AM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 01, 2007, 07:25:24 PM
Always I have wondered for that nobody I demand to be Michael if his her body I do not find.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 02, 2007, 12:37:19 AM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.

Actually, I believe you have overstated the definition of "proof". I just re-checked my dictionary to see if anything had changed (or if I had been misusing the word) - and it has not. Proof is defined as "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth".

Let's look at an example. In my opinion, there was more than enough proof that O.J. Simpson murdered his ex-wife. As you know, the jury in his criminal trial disagreed with me - finding that there was not enough "proof" to convict him. Clearly, proof does not always preclude argument.

You say my statement is obvious - perhaps. But, in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 02, 2007, 04:18:21 AM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.

Actually, I believe you have overstated the definition of "proof". I just re-checked my dictionary to see if anything had changed (or if I had been misusing the word) - and it has not. Proof is defined as "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth".

Let's look at an example. In my opinion, there was more than enough proof that O.J. Simpson murdered his ex-wife. As you know, the jury in his criminal trial disagreed with me - finding that there was not enough "proof" to convict him. Clearly, proof does not always preclude argument.

You say my statement is obvious - perhaps. But, in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 05, 2007, 04:24:37 PM
Thank you for his her answers :)
It is believed that they have not found the bodies of Michael Romanov and Brian Johnson by that they were cremated or in a nearby factory or there in the forest  or that on where they buried them now there is offices or a parking
Out of the testimonies of his her assassins there is no proof of the death of any of the two


There is most certainly proof of death of both of these men, even without bodies. Johnson's wife never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Natasha never heard from her husband again. Not ever. Both men were in love with their wives and indeed sought to keep them safe after Michael's arrest. I disbelieve in Michael's survival because nothing convinces me that he would have abandoned his wife and family.
But Lisa, what you have stated is the obvious, but can certainly not be the same as "proof". Proof is something irrefutable. It's something that no one can argue with.

Actually, I believe you have overstated the definition of "proof". I just re-checked my dictionary to see if anything had changed (or if I had been misusing the word) - and it has not. Proof is defined as "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth".

Let's look at an example. In my opinion, there was more than enough proof that O.J. Simpson murdered his ex-wife. As you know, the jury in his criminal trial disagreed with me - finding that there was not enough "proof" to convict him. Clearly, proof does not always preclude argument.

You say my statement is obvious - perhaps. But, in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.

With all due respect, you need to go to the dictionary and look up the definition of the word "proof". "Proof" can be evidence that causes one to believe.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 05, 2007, 05:27:37 PM
... in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.

I have to agree with Martyr here. Saying that Michael was "not the kind of person who would abandon his wife" is not proof... That doesn't mean he survived of course, it just has nothing to do with "proof" that he didn't... It's a strange argument.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Vecchiolarry on June 05, 2007, 09:27:52 PM
Hi Everybody,

Just a suggestion as to what may have happened to the bodies:

I believe they were shot in the woods and local Russians would know if there were wolves in those woods, then they merely had to leave the bodies where they dropped and they would be gone by morning.  No trace of anything would remain.
Several years ago, I worked in a mining camp in Northern Canada.  The manager shot a menacing black bear there one night and it was dragged onto a clearing by the river and left there.  Next morning, nothing remained of the bear, not even bones or blood.  The wolves had done a good cleanup job.

Could this explain why no bodies were ever found?  Something to think about!!

Larry
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 05, 2007, 11:36:40 PM
I have to agree with Martyr here. Saying that Michael was "not the kind of person who would abandon his wife" is not proof... That doesn't mean he survived of course, it just has nothing to do with "proof" that he didn't... It's a strange argument.

Ditto.  It seems far-fetch'd, but there was a possibility that it could have happened.  An example. (though not really thorough) is the US Federal Witness Protection Program.  Many are forced to erase their previous lives and start completely anew, abolishing any and all contacts to and from their old lives.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Alixz on June 06, 2007, 09:01:30 AM
Passing by the definition of "proof" - I read both of the links.

They are hard to understand due to the difficulty of translation.  However, while I don't take a stand one way or the other, it is interesting to read.

I believe that Lenin and his successors left the the "fate" of all of the Romanovs (except those shot at St. Peter and Paul) in doubt and confusion on purpose.  That may not have been their initial intent, but when it happened they ran with it.  The perfect cover up is no cover up.  Make no claims and let everyone else confuse and obfuscate.

Or make some claims but none that can be proven.  As to a mother's "heart knowing" The Dowager Empress never believed that Nicholas and company were dead either and they certainly were.

I guess I believe that Michael died in Perm with Brian Johnson.  I have no reason not to believe, but no "proof" (there is that word again  :o ) either.

I do wonder why, though, that no big "fuss" was made over Michael as was made of Nicholas and his family.  I am sure that there was come kind of investigation at the time or later, but I guess the civil war and the ensuing Bolshevik take over would have brought any impartial investigation to a halt.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2007, 09:20:11 AM
I agree that 'not that kind of person' means nothing. Whenever I try to suggest Gleb Botkin was a likely suspect in being involved in the AA fraud, people will say he couldn't have because 'the Schweitzers were such nice people.' Well, that really doesn't mean a thing. Even if they were nice, that doesn't mean he was not capable of something less than on the level. Besides, people can justify things in their head so they don't think they're doing anything wrong, so I'm sure he never thought of himself as a bad guy and taught his daughter to be a fraud. I've discussed with others  on other sites that maybe a certain star is not as sincere about something as he pretends to be, and other fans go 'oh no I read this interview..' Well, that's one interview where he was careful, or one news spot where he made sure he said just the right thing. You can't be sure what he may also be thinking and doing on his on time.

Another point is, anyone can be nice for five minutes when you meet them or talk on the phone, it's not an indication of their entire life. No offense to anyone in particular, this goes for everyone. Just because you may think someone is 'a nice person who wouldn't to that' or transfer that to their family members, it really doesn't mean a thing. No one knows what anyone would do under certain circumstances. We'd probably even surprise ourselves to know what we might be capable of if things became extreme, that's why I don't even buy it when a person tells me THEY would NEVER do blankedy blank, no one really knows until you're faced with it. And we can never be sure of anything concerning others we never met or only spoke to briefly, or only read about.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 06, 2007, 01:47:05 PM
You are right, Michael's actions speak louder than any words. His determined devotion to the woman he sacrificed so much to marry, his constant concern over the welfare of his family and  his refusal of the throne under his own volition demostrates his integrity. Such a man would be most unlikely to abandon a family he had worked so hard for.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 06, 2007, 01:48:25 PM
You are right, Michael's actions speak louder than any words. His determined devotion to the woman he sacrificed so much to marry, his constant concern over the welfare of his family and  his refusal of the throne under his own volition demostrates his integrity. Such a man would be most unlikely to abandon a family he had worked so hard for.Especially to become a monk! As he had never demonstarted any religous procivity in his past.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 06, 2007, 02:42:56 PM
Maybe someone had him confused with Alexander I  ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: lexi4 on June 06, 2007, 08:05:03 PM
... in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.

I have to agree with Martyr here. Saying that Michael was "not the kind of person who would abandon his wife" is not proof... That doesn't mean he survived of course, it just has nothing to do with "proof" that he didn't... It's a strange argument.


I have to agree. Perhaps Micheal would abandon his wife if it would assure her safety. So now I have cast reasonable doubt.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Belochka on June 06, 2007, 08:48:52 PM
... in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.

I have to agree with Martyr here. Saying that Michael was "not the kind of person who would abandon his wife" is not proof... That doesn't mean he survived of course, it just has nothing to do with "proof" that he didn't... It's a strange argument.


I have to agree. Perhaps Micheal would abandon his wife if it would assure her safety. So now I have cast reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt or is there another stupid survival idea brewing in the Siberian wind?

Margarita  ???
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: lexi4 on June 07, 2007, 08:42:15 AM
... in order to believe in the survival of Michael, one has to disregard nearly all obvious truths about the man- including the most obvious, which was that he was a man very much in love with his wife and completely unlikely to abandon her.
no, that is a matter of faith. That's like saying you know someone wouldn't do something because "they are not that kind of person". That's just not proof, not at all.

I have to agree with Martyr here. Saying that Michael was "not the kind of person who would abandon his wife" is not proof... That doesn't mean he survived of course, it just has nothing to do with "proof" that he didn't... It's a strange argument.


I have to agree. Perhaps Micheal would abandon his wife if it would assure her safety. So now I have cast reasonable doubt.

Reasonable doubt or is there another stupid survival idea brewing in the Siberian wind?

Margarita  ???

Margarity,
Cool your jets.  :)
We are just enjoying the discussion.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on June 08, 2007, 11:52:24 AM
I read in one it paginates a little of internet strange that Michael didn't die that I am able to escape wounded and I arrive at a monastery where they changed their identity and he lived as monk until they send it to a field of Stanlin and it dies there for the conditions of the place.
This it is the first link where it begins this history  http://www.philosophi.org/lasttsar.htm
and in this he comes the continuation and the comparison of the pictures among Michael and the monk that said it was the one
http://www.philosophi.org/russkiy_tsar.htm
In my opinion I don't believe in this plaintiff if Michael had survived monk had not been made, he would have returned beside Nathasa and of George, it is very similar to the story that Anastasia survived and nun became.
 ¿You that they say on this case?
 :)

there's a good chance of this happening since Michael's body is not found yet . . . which leads to another question: did anyone claim that they were Michael Alexandrovich?  ???
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 08, 2007, 12:37:57 PM
No. No one ever claimed to be Michael. He had a living wife and relatives that could identify him easily. Also, no one ever escaped "wounded" from a Bolshevik execution squad! They were brutal, but thorogh and sloppily efficient.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2007, 01:36:58 PM
No. No one ever claimed to be Michael. He had a living wife and relatives that could identify him easily.

This must be the reason he had no claimants. You'd think with the story of there being no body, and the fact that he was technically the heir to the (though non existent) throne, and possible royal fortune, guys would be lining up to be him! I was always surprised he had no claimants (well except for that one guy who used to post here) Because he was older there was no doubt about his face changing like some could say about a teenager (though from  17 to allegedly 18 and a half AN wouldn't have changed enough to look like FS/AA) and because he had a living wife, child and sisters and mother who could ID him well, no one bothered. The reason AN was a good prospect for frauds is because her immediate family was dead, and the family was so reclusive not many left alive knew her well enough to give positive ID. Those who did were either branded as liars (Olga, Gilliard) or not asked (Dmitri, Anna Vyrobova) Also, someone was clearly in on the AA fraud who had known the family, a Michael claimant didn't have that (which is likely why all of the other claimants of AN and the other children were not as successful as AA)

You know, I'm sorry there wasn't a Michael claimant back then. His birthright and inheritance would have overridden any claim by a possible AN claimant, and maybe AA would have just shut up and we wouldn't have to deal with her and hear about the shoes and the ears to this day!

That being said, it is good to talk about ANY other claimant besides her, even a wild tale like this!
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on June 08, 2007, 08:23:41 PM
No. No one ever claimed to be Michael. He had a living wife and relatives that could identify him easily.

This must be the reason he had no claimants. You'd think with the story of there being no body, and the fact that he was technically the heir to the (though non existent) throne, and possible royal fortune, guys would be lining up to be him! I was always surprised he had no claimants (well except for that one guy who used to post here) Because he was older there was no doubt about his face changing like some could say about a teenager (though from  17 to allegedly 18 and a half AN wouldn't have changed enough to look like FS/AA) and because he had a living wife, child and sisters and mother who could ID him well, no one bothered. The reason AN was a good prospect for frauds is because her immediate family was dead, and the family was so reclusive not many left alive knew her well enough to give positive ID. Those who did were either branded as liars (Olga, Gilliard) or not asked (Dmitri, Anna Vyrobova) Also, someone was clearly in on the AA fraud who had known the family, a Michael claimant didn't have that (which is likely why all of the other claimants of AN and the other children were not as successful as AA)

You know, I'm sorry there wasn't a Michael claimant back then. His birthright and inheritance would have overridden any claim by a possible AN claimant, and maybe AA would have just shut up and we wouldn't have to deal with her and hear about the shoes and the ears to this day!

That being said, it is good to talk about ANY other claimant besides her, even a wild tale like this!

Good point Robert  :)
and Annie, I have to agree with you . . . it would have been sort of funny if all the movies and books were on Michael, rather than Anastasia or AA  ;)
And about Michael and his wife, Natalya Sheremetevskaia, they were quite a couple, weren't they? Their story was very romantic . . .
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 09, 2007, 08:17:11 AM
No. No one ever claimed to be Michael. He had a living wife and relatives that could identify him easily.

That would have made an interesting book (or even movie!), sort of The Return of Martin Guirre-ish...  ::)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 12, 2007, 09:07:41 PM
Please can someone put a photo of the man that I demand to be Michael? ???
Thank you  :)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 13, 2007, 01:44:38 AM
I am not sure of your request, Amanda, but it has been pointed out that no one claimed to be Michael, so there obviously is no photo.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Alixz on June 13, 2007, 01:12:09 PM
The Return of Martin Guirre was made into a move called Somersby and it has a very moving story.

Helen_A -   Mistaken for Alexander I, indeed   ::)  lol

Can you imagine Natasha taking in a man claiming to be Michael Alexandrovich and then finding out that his shoe size was wrong??

I am sorry, but I agree with Robert.  The Bolsheviks were sloppy but thorough.

No one has come forward to claim to be Paul Alexandrovich or any of the other who were shot in the Fortress of Sts Peter and Paul.  Why did no one think to say that a "double" had taken the place of one of the men and one of those men was not "at large"?



Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2007, 03:24:08 PM
The Return of Martin Guirre was made into a move called Somersby and it has a very moving story.

Way back when, I posted a thread on Sommersby and AA. I tried to search, but alas the search feature once again gave me no matches, even though I entered Sommersby, match any word, and my username. Sigh.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=db274d60eb9ca301a9804e9d5feabb60&topic=1162.0



While I was searching manually through all the old threads, I also found this! Michael allegedly alive in England:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=db274d60eb9ca301a9804e9d5feabb60&topic=5679.0


There are a lot of very interesting topics here for those who are new or haven't looked in awhile, check them out!
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 13, 2007, 03:26:38 PM
The Return of Martin Guirre was made into a move called Somersby and it has a very moving story.

Actually, The Return of Martin Guerre was made into a movie called The Return of Martin Guerre way before it was made into a movie called Somersby... It's in French  ;). 

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Martin-Guerre-G%C3%A9rard-Depardieu/dp/B0001MIQWQ/ref=sr_1_3/002-3467939-3834418?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1181766243&sr=1-3
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Tsarfan on June 13, 2007, 06:10:02 PM
He had a living wife and relatives that could identify him easily.

True . . . but when it comes to finding a precedent for something preposterous, Russian history is almost always willing to oblige.

During the Time of Troubles, the first false Dmitry to emerge was married to a woman named Marina Mniszech.  This claimant -- who actually occupied the throne for a while -- was killed in early 1606, whereupon a second false Dmitry emerged in 1607, claiming to be the first false Dmitry (although reportedly looking nothing like hiim).  Dmitry No. 2  was promptly "recognized" by Marina, who went on to marry him in secret.  (She apparently had no moral compunction about lying to regain the sacred throne she shared briefly with the first false Dmitry, but was rather disturbed at the prospect of living with a man to whom she was not married.  Go figure.)

In fact, the saga of the three false Dmitry's during the 17th century is a striking parallel to all the 20th-century nonsense about Anna Anderson's being "recognized" by people who knew the original and to the claims that Anna Anderson knew things that only the real Anastasia could have known.

When the first False Dmitry emerged, he was recognized by the Patriarch of Moscow, who found his knowledge of court life and his "royal demeanor" to be convincing -- something that only the "real" Dmitry could have pulled off.  And some members of the Russian nobility as well as foreign princes acknowledged him as the missing tsesarevitch Dmitry Ivanovich.  Much as Anna Anderson, this false Dmitry was "discovered" in adverse circumstances.  She was supposedly identified while in an insane asylum, and Dmitry's identity supposedly emerged when he erupted in anger after being slapped by a master into whose service he had arrived by the circuitous route of being passed from mother to doctor to monastery to temporal servitude.  (Ringing any bells about dog cart rides across the steppes, anyone?)

I think the real reason there was no serious attempt to raise up a Michael pretender was that having a Michael appear on the scene would have triggered real and prickly political and dynastic issues that no one had the will or the means to confront.  Raising up an Anastasia pretender would have been of no real political consequence (as almost all Russians had had quite enough of the Nicholas crowd), but it would have spawned a veritable industry for the romantic dreamers of pretty little princesses in pretty big palaces, not to mention the fortune hunters looking to capitalize in various far-fetched ways.

Unless one buys the notion that people were a whole lot more stupid in 1607 than in 1925, there is really nothing remarkable or unique about the partial success of Anna Anderson's scam.  All it needed was guillible daydreamers or cynical opportunists to work . . . things which are never  in short supply.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Alixz on June 13, 2007, 06:11:12 PM
Actually, I knew that the movie had been made in French first, but for those who haven't read the book or don't speak or understand French, Somersby would be the way to go if they wanted to know what the story is all about.

I loved the ending twist about truth vs. loyalty and love. I love it and hated it, too.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I remembered hearing about this story in school.  I can't remember if it was in high school or college, but I remember that someone mentioned it as good literature.  When Somersby came out it gave that story more public appeal.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 13, 2007, 07:51:27 PM
I remember that in "Imperial Claimants Post Here"  law the history of a man that it looked for to obtain a visa under the identity of Michael and that the photos of this man were even shown a Natasha  and friends but were a fraud,  the book "Michael y Natasha"the information of this man and the photos are in a file Russian MS 1363/101  ???
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 14, 2007, 08:08:25 AM
Raising up an Anastasia pretender would have been of no real political consequence (as almost all Russians had had quite enough of the Nicholas crowd), but it would have spawned a veritable industry for the romantic dreamers of pretty little princesses in pretty big palaces, not to mention the fortune hunters looking to capitalize in various far-fetched ways.

Precisely...


Unless one buys the notion that people were a whole lot more stupid in 1607 than in 1925, there is really nothing remarkable or unique about the partial success of Anna Anderson's scam.  All it needed was guillible daydreamers or cynical opportunists to work . . . things which are never  in short supply.

Bingo  ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Nevey on January 29, 2009, 12:27:00 PM
 I just was surfing around the Romanov Wiki entries and from what I have read there Nicholas II's younger brother (Grand Duke Michael ) was supposedly executed by the Bolsheviks along with his assistant Brian Johnson.  Their remains were never found they are supposed to be buried somewhere on the outskirts of Perm.  I was just wondering if this is true (I know how Wiki entries are) and if they still haven't been found (like I said Wiki entries can be tricky and I try not to rely on them ~ ;) ~ ) ?


Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 29, 2009, 01:08:26 PM
I just was surfing around the Romanov Wiki entries and from what I have read there Nicholas II's younger brother (Grand Duke Michael ) was supposedly executed by the Bolsheviks along with his assistant Brian Johnson.  Their remains were never found they are supposed to be buried somewhere on the outskirts of Perm.  I was just wondering if this is true (I know how Wiki entries are) and if they still haven't been found (like I said Wiki entries can be tricky and I try not to rely on them ~ ;) ~ ) ?




This is true. For more information on Michael, read the Crawford's book, "Michael and Natasha".

Welcome.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 11:39:34 PM
Wow, Thank you, LisaDavidson!
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on April 22, 2009, 02:07:04 PM
I have come across a few references to Grand Duke Michael apparently turning up in Omsk (1918), near Archangel (1918), in the Crimea (1919) and Shanghai (the 1920's).  All seem to have been rumours among the White Russian community rather than an actual claimant - or does anyone know any different?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 26, 2009, 02:13:10 AM
I have come across a few references to Grand Duke Michael apparently turning up in Omsk (1918), near Archangel (1918), in the Crimea (1919) and Shanghai (the 1920's).  All seem to have been rumours among the White Russian community rather than an actual claimant - or does anyone know any different?

Phil Tomaselli

My opinion (no proof) is that it served the Bolsheviks for a time to have people think Michael was still alive, so perhaps both sides spread false rumors. I know of no actual claimants. It was very hurtful to Countess Brassova to hear these things, as she knew if her husband were actually alive, he would have been in touch with her.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on April 26, 2009, 07:01:55 PM
See my posting under Royal Families - the authorities in Perm are starting a systematic search for the remains of the Grand Duke.

dca
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 27, 2009, 12:25:22 AM
See my posting under Royal Families - the authorities in Perm are starting a systematic search for the remains of the Grand Duke.

dca

It's long past time.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on April 28, 2009, 05:14:11 AM
See my posting under Royal Families - the authorities in Perm are starting a systematic search for the remains of the Grand Duke.

dca

About time and I hope  they find him and his sectary and they can be laid to rest with the rest of the imperial family.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 28, 2009, 02:45:17 PM
See my posting under Royal Families - the authorities in Perm are starting a systematic search for the remains of the Grand Duke.

dca

About time and I hope  they find him and his sectary and they can be laid to rest with the rest of the imperial family.

There has long been a rumor in Perm that they were secretly buried in an Orthodox cemetery. If so, I doubt they would be moved.

When coming up with a list of possibilities about where Alexei and his sister could be (this was before the 2007 discovery), Penny Wilson showed me some research work which discussed the most probable places where they could be based upon the bare facts - 2 young people murdered in secret in a revolutionary period. The researcher thought the best possibilities were close by the parents or in a cemetery of their faith. Of course we know that the first was the case.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 28, 2009, 08:57:16 PM
Hi,

There is also the possibility that Michael and his secretary were left in the woods and the victims of preditory wolves.
I strongly believe that this is what happened to them.

My reasoning:
A gentleman friend of a relative of mine was also shot near Perm around the time of the Romanov murders.
When, in 1960, we went to find out about him, several of the village residents told us that he had "been devoured by wolves"...
That night the people heard the wolves howling & the resulting carnage.  Wolves are very efficient scavangers and will leave no evidence behind.
True story!!

Larry
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: imperial angel on April 28, 2009, 11:23:08 PM
I doubt it was wolves, you would think there would be some evidence, if so, and that somewhere that story would have come up. Shooting was more the Bolshevik way, at least with a Romanov. I've never heard that he may have buried in an Orthodox cemetery, but one wonders if they would have accorded his remains that much respect, even.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 29, 2009, 10:24:24 PM
I doubt it was wolves, you would think there would be some evidence, if so, and that somewhere that story would have come up. Shooting was more the Bolshevik way, at least with a Romanov. I've never heard that he may have buried in an Orthodox cemetery, but one wonders if they would have accorded his remains that much respect, even.

It's hard to know. Perhaps some locals buried them if this is the case.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on April 30, 2009, 03:04:55 AM
I am sure I read somewhere that the bodies were buried in a shallow grave. Cannot recall where I saw this but if true they might be found. I hope so
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: imperial angel on April 30, 2009, 09:29:14 AM
That's pretty much what I've read too Michael HR in most books about the Romanovs where it talks about Michael's death.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Lemur on April 30, 2009, 10:54:37 PM
According to the account by the killers in the book A Lifelong Passion, Michael and his secretary were drug off into the woods and covered with leaves and branches. Since the accounts of the killers of the IF and Ella/Paley/KR sons all turned out accurate, I see no reason to believe that one to be false. I highly doubt any Bolshevik executioner would bother to take the time and consideration to find a nice Orthodox cemetary for their victims. If they were indeed left under the branches and not moved again later by others, I wouldn't be suprised if the wolf story were true, sadly. Regardless, finding him will be a lot more of a needle in a haystack than even the two missing children ever were.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on May 01, 2009, 03:53:48 AM
Correct life long passion is where I read this. If a shallow grave I doubt Michael will be found but one must have hope. In my book he had been the best hope for the dynasty and only what if...
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Lemur on May 01, 2009, 07:39:56 AM
The account of the murders by A.V. Markov can be found on pages 630-631. He describes how two of the shooters had problems with their guns and it took several tries to kill Misha and his secretary. Once they were finally dead, the killer noted "we could not bury them because it was becoming light rapidly and we were near the road. We drug them together to the side of the road, covered them with branches and went off in the direction of Motovilicihia."
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: imperial angel on May 01, 2009, 07:48:01 AM
Why weren't the Michael's remains searched for before? Because it would have been hard to find his remains? Because finding his remains was regarded as less important than finding the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children?
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 02, 2009, 04:33:52 PM
Why weren't the Michael's remains searched for before? Because it would have been hard to find his remains? Because finding his remains was regarded as less important than finding the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children?

We have come a very long way in a very short time. I read Olga's memoirs in the 1960's as a young girl and recall reading that the IF's bodies were destroyed with fire and sulphuric acid. I'm no scientist, and I have a weak stomach, but it did not take too much investigating on my part to figure out that the "official" explanation was bogus.

I vowed to spend the rest of my life if need be to be sure that all the Romanovs had proper burials. Of course, my letter writing at first elicited nothing but brush offs, but by the time I met Bob in the 1990's the first remains had been found. And so it goes.

We really don't know where Michael is, but it's difficult and frustrating, not to mention, expensive to do this work. Russians generally don't think it's any business of non Russians to do such work.

So the fact that someone is finally looking for Michael's remains less than 100 years after he died and less than 20 years since the dear Commies' government fell is nothing short of remarkable.

Go to it Vladimir!
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 08, 2009, 02:44:01 PM
Why weren't the Michael's remains searched for before? Because it would have been hard to find his remains? Because finding his remains was regarded as less important than finding the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children?

We have come a very long way in a very short time. I read Olga's memoirs in the 1960's as a young girl and recall reading that the IF's bodies were destroyed with fire and sulphuric acid. I'm no scientist, and I have a weak stomach, but it did not take too much investigating on my part to figure out that the "official" explanation was bogus.

I vowed to spend the rest of my life if need be to be sure that all the Romanovs had proper burials. Of course, my letter writing at first elicited nothing but brush offs, but by the time I met Bob in the 1990's the first remains had been found. And so it goes.

We really don't know where Michael is, but it's difficult and frustrating, not to mention, expensive to do this work. Russians generally don't think it's any business of non Russians to do such work.

So the fact that someone is finally looking for Michael's remains less than 100 years after he died and less than 20 years since the dear Commies' government fell is nothing short of remarkable.

Go to it Vladimir!

Ms. Davidson:

I believe that technology has brought us a long way, in making it easier for scientists to document and record evidence. That is, if there is evidence.

As you know, I am working with a young man, who is the grandson of GD Michael, and not even in the history books!  His father died in 1993 (Dimitry Mikhailovich Romanov), and Emmanuel is working with me on his father's wishes.  To no let history forget what was happening during this time.  Would you be in agreement, that it is very possible that the GD protected his family, by changing their names, paying for a birth not to be recorded (i.e evidence - their is a birth certificate signed by both parents), and that there is a secret son between the GD and Countess Brasova?
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 10, 2009, 12:45:30 AM
Why weren't the Michael's remains searched for before? Because it would have been hard to find his remains? Because finding his remains was regarded as less important than finding the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children?

We have come a very long way in a very short time. I read Olga's memoirs in the 1960's as a young girl and recall reading that the IF's bodies were destroyed with fire and sulphuric acid. I'm no scientist, and I have a weak stomach, but it did not take too much investigating on my part to figure out that the "official" explanation was bogus.

I vowed to spend the rest of my life if need be to be sure that all the Romanovs had proper burials. Of course, my letter writing at first elicited nothing but brush offs, but by the time I met Bob in the 1990's the first remains had been found. And so it goes.

We really don't know where Michael is, but it's difficult and frustrating, not to mention, expensive to do this work. Russians generally don't think it's any business of non Russians to do such work.

So the fact that someone is finally looking for Michael's remains less than 100 years after he died and less than 20 years since the dear Commies' government fell is nothing short of remarkable.

Go to it Vladimir!

Ms. Davidson:

I believe that technology has brought us a long way, in making it easier for scientists to document and record evidence. That is, if there is evidence.

As you know, I am working with a young man, who is the grandson of GD Michael, and not even in the history books!  His father died in 1993 (Dimitry Mikhailovich Romanov), and Emmanuel is working with me on his father's wishes.  To no let history forget what was happening during this time.  Would you be in agreement, that it is very possible that the GD protected his family, by changing their names, paying for a birth not to be recorded (i.e evidence - their is a birth certificate signed by both parents), and that there is a secret son between the GD and Countess Brasova?

I would be very skeptical about this if you're asking my opinion.

Natalia Wulfurt became pregnant only once that we know of after meeting the Grand Duke and indeed their acknowledged son George Mikhailovich was born as Natalia and Wulfurt were divorcing. Without the Emperor's intervention, indeed George would have  been Wulfurt's son at least legally. And we know that Michael risked everything to have his brother intervene.

So, with everything I know of Michael and Natasha, they may have been scandalous for their time, but they were devoted parents and would not have entered an arrangement where they had a secret son - they already had one - George.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 10, 2009, 12:12:45 PM
Why weren't the Michael's remains searched for before? Because it would have been hard to find his remains? Because finding his remains was regarded as less important than finding the remains of Nicholas and Alexandra and their children?

We have come a very long way in a very short time. I read Olga's memoirs in the 1960's as a young girl and recall reading that the IF's bodies were destroyed with fire and sulphuric acid. I'm no scientist, and I have a weak stomach, but it did not take too much investigating on my part to figure out that the "official" explanation was bogus.

I vowed to spend the rest of my life if need be to be sure that all the Romanovs had proper burials. Of course, my letter writing at first elicited nothing but brush offs, but by the time I met Bob in the 1990's the first remains had been found. And so it goes.

We really don't know where Michael is, but it's difficult and frustrating, not to mention, expensive to do this work. Russians generally don't think it's any business of non Russians to do such work.

So the fact that someone is finally looking for Michael's remains less than 100 years after he died and less than 20 years since the dear Commies' government fell is nothing short of remarkable.

Go to it Vladimir!

Ms. Davidson:

I believe that technology has brought us a long way, in making it easier for scientists to document and record evidence. That is, if there is evidence.

As you know, I am working with a young man, who is the grandson of GD Michael, and not even in the history books!  His father died in 1993 (Dimitry Mikhailovich Romanov), and Emmanuel is working with me on his father's wishes.  To no let history forget what was happening during this time.  Would you be in agreement, that it is very possible that the GD protected his family, by changing their names, paying for a birth not to be recorded (i.e evidence - their is a birth certificate signed by both parents), and that there is a secret son between the GD and Countess Brasova?

I would be very skeptical about this if you're asking my opinion.

Natalia Wulfurt became pregnant only once that we know of after meeting the Grand Duke and indeed their acknowledged son George Mikhailovich was born as Natalia and Wulfurt were divorcing. Without the Emperor's intervention, indeed George would have  been Wulfurt's son at least legally. And we know that Michael risked everything to have his brother intervene.

So, with everything I know of Michael and Natasha, they may have been scandalous for their time, but they were devoted parents and would not have entered an arrangement where they had a secret son - they already had one - George.

Ms. Davidson,
No. I am not asking your opinion.  I was simply saying that it is a possibility that a business arrangement was made, at the time of the fall of the Dynasty.  After all, both the Tsar's family, and Michael's family were already under house arrest. How does history know anything?  History is what we know, as far as written language and documentation. How would we not have learned of GD Michael's death, months before the family of the Tsar?
There are many skeptics in the world, and from what I have read and researched regarding royal scandals, the family of GD Michael was in its infancy. Too many things have been left without documentation, and part of history books.
I am not a skeptic, and I have decided to help this person.  Many things in history, have been swept under the carpet. Many deals have also been made to protect innocents. One should assume innocents when helping another, until proven guilty.  I see no guilt in helping someone be acknowledged for whom he really is.  He has documentation, he has a birth certificate, and he has his father's memories.  He also has his living mother to attest to these times. I do not believe he would made up this story.  He is a young man who has never studied history.  The history he knows, he has learned from his deceased father, and living mother.
I have had hundreds of communications with Emmanuel over the past few months.  I do not believe he would lie about his own life.  There would be no reason for it.  I have included some of our conversations below, that honorably tells me that he is searching for the credibility he deserves.

Emmanuel's Reply:

Es un placer que usted haya estudiado a mi familia, le escribo en español ya que es la lengua que más gusta a mi persona, usted a estudiado la historia de nuestra familia de comienzo de la esposa de Ivan Ivanovich conocido como el Zar Ivan el terrible o desde 1612 el tiempo en que los Rusos expulsaron a la Liga Polaco-Lituana, y que en ese entonces se nombro Zar despues de tanto revueltas a mi antepasado Mikhail I Romanov,
ya que mi padre estaria antes que ella, pero mi padre al fallecer el 9 de julio de 1993 a la edad de 76 años yo seria el unico que pudiera reclamar la corona de Rusia, pero mi padre oculto toda su vida su identidad ya que su vida corrio peligro en muchas ocaciones, una pista la madre de mi padre fallecio de cancer en francia y mi tio fallecio en accidente de transito dudoso de ser un atentado, mi abuelo lo oculto a mi padre por que ya sabia de los planes de los Bolcheviques cuando nacio mi padre, lo que es mas solo la Iglesia Ortodoxa tiene constancia del nacimiento de mi padre pero lo a ocultado ya que es un secreto dado a mis abuelos.

English translation:
It is a pleasure that you've studied my family, I am writing in Spanish because the language is more like me, you studied the history of our family from the beginning of the wife of Ivan Ivanovich known as the Tsar Ivan the terrible or time since 1612 that the Russians expelled the Polish-Lithuanian League, and then called Czar riots after both my ancestor Mikhail I Romanov,
because my father would be before her, but my father died on 9 July 1993 at the age of 76 I would be the only one who could claim the crown of Russia, but my father all his life hiding his identity as his life was in danger on many occasions, a track my father's mother died of cancer in France and my uncle died in traffic accident doubtful if an attack, hidden from my grandfather that my father already knew about the plans of the Bolsheviks When my father, which is but only the Orthodox Church is aware of the birth of my father but to what is hidden as a secret because my grandparents.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 10, 2009, 12:35:35 PM
Part II

Emmanuel Romanov September 8 at 5:00pm
Mi padre si es el hijo Mikhail Aleksandrovich Romanov y de su esposa Natalya Brassova. Mi padre hasta pago dinero para no tener nada que ver con la realeza Rusa. La pregunta es si mi padre no era el Hijo de Mikhail por que le interesaba a la KGB hacerlo desaparecer, ademas tanto mi padre como mi abuelo materno decidieron matenerse ocultos del medio publico. La madre de mi Madre su apellido de soltera es Stewart Katherine Stewart, descendiente de Jacob II Stuart, y tambien ella era descendiente de la ya dersaparecida familia real Irlandesa, y me contaba historia mi abuela que ella era descendiente de Brian Boru Rey de Munster, el Rey de Irlanda que puso resistencia a los Vikingos en Irlanda.
English Translation:
 My father if the son Mikhail Aleksandrovich Romanov and his wife Natalya Brassova. My father to pay money to have nothing to do with the Russian royalty. The question is whether my father was the son of Mikhail that the KGB was interested in making it disappear, plus both my father and my grandfather decided to maintain backward hidden from public media. My mother's mother maiden name is Stewart Katherine Stewart, a descendant of James II Stuart, and also she was a descendant of the royal family dersaparecida and Irish history and my grandmother told me that she was descended from King Brian Boru of Munster, King of Ireland who became resistant to the Vikings in Ireland.
Harry Binkow September 8 at 8:25pm
Así que su padre fue un segundo hijo de Príncipe Mikhail Aleksandrovich Romanov y la Condesa Brasova, que nunca fue registrado legalmente como un hijo para la historia. Sé de la muerte del hermano de su padre, George (Conde Brasov) a los 20 años en un accidente de automóvil en Francia 1931. Su padre nunca recibió un nombre real. ¿Fue dado él los derechos de inmigrar o escapó él en su propio? Esto es muy interesante a mí, y más excepcional.

Soy también irlandés por bajada. Desde que su madre no es alemana, necesitaré para mirar el linaje del Rey irlandés. Por supuesto, la Reina Mary II fue el gobernante de Inglaterra, de Escocia, y de Irlanda. Soy feliz de investigar esto para usted, si usted me querría a. Espero tht que he ayudado le a clarificar su herencia familiar.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 10, 2009, 01:41:07 PM
Part III

English Translation:
So his father was a second son of Prince Mikhail Aleksandrovich Romanov and Countess Brasov, which was never legally registered as a child of record. I know of the death of his father's brother, George (Count Brasov) at age 20 in an automobile accident in France 1931. His father never got a real name. Was given him the right to immigrate or ran it on his own? This is very interesting to me, and more outstanding.

I'm also Irish by descent. Since her mother is German, I will need to look at the lineage of the Irish king. Of course, the Queen Mary II was the ruler of England, Scotland, and Ireland. I'm happy to investigate this for you, if you want me a. I hope tht I've helped you to clarify your family heritage.

Considerations,
Harry
Emmanuel Romanov September 15 at 3:16pm
Mi padre Escapo, de Francia a los 34 años en el año 1950 a Gran Bretaña y para los años 1973 emigro junto a mi madre a America....
English Translation:
 My parents escaped from France at age 34 in 1950 to Britain for the years 1973 and emigrated with my mother to America ....

Harry' reply: September 15, 2009
Saludo Emmanuel

Gracias por la actualización de su información.

Esta información es muy interesante, sin embargo, le puede dar más detalles?

¿Cuál era su nombre cuando su padre emigró de Europa? ¿Qué tipo de pasaporte que fue la mano?

Como se mencionó, el nombre, Dimitri, no en el registro, y el único hijo de su abuelo, Mikhail, era George. ¿Cómo se explica esto? Entiendo la necesidad de mantener en secreto, sin embargo, no hay pruebas de ADN, un registro de bautismo o algo así?

¿Por qué el príncipe y la condesa ocultar su nacimiento. ¿Fue porque sabía que era, posiblemente, van a matar? ¿Cómo va a demostrar heridity?

Estoy trabajando en la investigación de la familia de su madre en Irlanda. Pasé mucho tiempo para anceestry alemán, estoy muy confundido.

Haré mi mejor esfuerzo para tratar de entender.

Saludos cordiales,
Harry
English translation:
Dear Emmanuel

Thanks for the update of your information.

This information is very interesting, however, may give you some more details?

What was his name when his father emigrated from Europe? What kind of passport that was the hand?

As discussed, the name, Dimitri, not on the register, and the only son of his grandfather, Mikhail, was George. What explains this? I understand the need for secrecy, however, no DNA evidence, a baptismal record or something?

Why Prince and Countess hide his birth. Was it because he knew he was possibly going to kill? How will demonstrate heridity?

I'm working on the investigation of his mother's family in Ireland. I spent so much time ancestry German, I am very confused.

I will do my best to try to understand.

Best regards,
Harry
Emmanuel Romanov September 15 at 5:41pm
Mi padre tiene el certificado de su nacimiento que tiene la prueba y la firma de ambos padres y el adn estan en los restos de mi padre como en mi sangre que no miente...
mi padre cuando emigro a gran Bretaña tenia el apellido de Romanov viajo con un pasaporte Austriaco de viena, y cuando viajo a america con el apellido de Deimond Leicester, en Brasil se puso el apellido de DA COSTA LEITE, y murio diciendo que lo unico que deseaba era que ya que la ultima ves que vio a su padre fue cuando era un niño, que deseaba ser enterrado junto a su padre y trasladar los restos de su madre a Rusia, me pidio que si fuera lo que tuviera que hacer como exumar sus restos para demostrar que era el hijo legitimo de Mikhail y Natalya, y descansar en paz.
English translation:
'My father has a birth certificate that has the proof and the signature of both parents and DNA are the remains of my father in my blood that can not lie ...
my father when he immigrated to Great Britain had the surname Romanov Austrian travel with a passport in Vienna, and when I travel to America with the surname of Leicester Deimond in Brazil was the name of DA COSTA LEITE, and died saying that the only thing wanted was that since the last time I saw her father was as a child, he wanted to be buried beside his father and transfer the remains of his mother from Russia, asked me if what he had to do as exuma their remains to prove that he was the legitimate son of Mikhail and Natalya, and rest in peace. "
Emmanuel Romanov September 16 at 2:22pm
Con respecto a esta pregunta... ¿Por qué, específicamente lo que sus padres ocultar su nacimiento? ¿Fue porque sabían que pueden ser encarcelados o asesinados? ¿Cómo va a explicar su heridity? Mikhail sabia de las intenciones de los Bolchevique de asesinar a la familia Imperial Romanov, hasta el Zar Nikolai cuando su hermano le comento lo que habia averiguado Nikolai le dijo que era imposible que era tan imposible como querer transportar los Urales a cualquier parte del mundo el que los Bolcheviques que tuvieran exito en tal cosa. Pero el miedo de mi abuelo de proteger a su esposa su hijo George y el bebe que venia en camino, le dijo a su hermano que el respetaba su desicion de no creerle pero que el se iba a asegurar de proteger a su familia a costa de su propia vida y que habia desidido cuando naciera su segundo hijo fuera niño o niña, de no darlo a conocer al medio publico por la seguridad de la vida del bebe, ya que seria más facil de proteger no sabiendose de su existencia.... Y aunque tuviera que gotear su ultima gota de sangre por proteger a su pequeño George y a su amada Natalya, y a su segundo fruto de su matrimonio, mi padre.


Con respecto a mi madre ella es una Von Hohenzollern por padre y como le dije por parte de su madre es una Stewart...

Saludos Cordiales,
Emmanuel Romanov.
English translation:
Re: Romanov Family

With regard to this question ... Why, specifically what their parents conceal his birth? Was it because they knew they could be jailed or killed? How will you explain your heridity? Mikhail knew about the intentions of the Bolsheviks to kill the Imperial Romanov family, to the Tsar Nikolai when his brother told him what he had learned Nikolai said it was impossible it was as impossible as trying to carry the Urals to anywhere in the world that the Bolsheviks were successful in that. But the fear of my grandfather to protect his wife and baby son George who was on the way, he told his brother that he respected his decision to not believe him but that he would ensure to protect your family at the expense of his own life and that he had desidido when his second son was born child, not made known to the public means for the safety of your baby's life, and it would be easier to protect not knowing of their existence .... And if he had to dribble his last drop of blood to protect her little George and his beloved Natalya, and his second fruit of their marriage, my father.


With respect to my mother she is a von Hohenzollern by father and told by her mother is a Stewart ...

Best regards,
Emmanuel Romanov.


As you can see, these are genuine comments made by someone who is seeking his ancestry. There are still many more communications I am researching.  I have purposely not edited or corrected any writing.  This young man cannot be lying about wanting to fulfill his father's wishes. There would be no point in it...

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 11, 2009, 02:37:21 AM
Interestingly enough Natasha never cared to show this second child even to the Dowager Empress when they met in exile.......

No, I don´t believe there was a second son.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 11, 2009, 10:46:21 AM
Interestingly enough Natasha never cared to show this second child even to the Dowager Empress when they met in exile.......

No, I don´t believe there was a second son.

Dear GD Ally,

The Dowager Empress did know of this child.  We do intend to prove it.  Why would anyone lie about the topic below: 

Emmanuel's Reply: September 4, 2009

de acuerdo sere breve, con respecto a esto mi padre, fue ocultado del medio social al nacer, solamente habia pruebas de su nacimiento en el lugar donde fue bautizado de la Iglesia ortodoxa en San Petersburgo, pero su padre o como quiera decirlo mi abuelo lo oculto solamente sabiendolo la familia más allegada de mi padre de sus tios el Zar Nikolai II y su abuela Maria Feodorovna, es un tema que sigue en suspenso hasta el dia de hoy, del cual mi padre se lo llevo hasta su tumba. mi abuelo el padre de mi madre es el hijo de Joachim

English translation:
sere under brief, with respect to that my father was hidden from the social environment at birth, but had evidence of birth in the place where he was baptized in the Orthodox Church in St. Petersburg, but his father or whatever you say my grandfather knowing it hidden only close family of my father of his uncles Tsar Nikolai II and his grandmother Maria Feodorovna, is a subject that is on hold until this day, of which my father took him to his grave. my grandfather on my mother's father is the son of Joachim

I do not edit any of our communication.  This is written in Emmanuel's own hand.  The immediate family was, apparently, very aware of this second son, Dimitry Mikhailovich Romanov, Emmanuel's father. I do have a photo of this man, and Emmanuel's mother.  I am trying to figure out how to put it on here from my desktop.  It was sent to me by Emmanuel. (http://MY PARENTS[1].bmp)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 11, 2009, 12:38:46 PM

http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/vv253/1toscany/?action=view&current=MYPARENTS-EmmanuelRomanov.jpg&newest=1 (http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/vv253/1toscany/?action=view&current=MYPARENTS-EmmanuelRomanov.jpg&newest=1)




I am trying to learn how to add photo's here...This is Dimitry Mikhailovich Romanov and his wife, Lanka Suzanne Stewart

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 11, 2009, 01:52:13 PM
I asked Emmanuel Romanov today, why there were no records of his father's birth between GD Michael and the Countess Brassova.  I also asked him if his father ever spoke of visits with his mother to see the Dagmar.  I explained to him how skeptics would not believe a hidden child of a royal family.  Here is our communication: (note* I have note edited communication or translations at this time.  they are exactly as written and translated).

My Communication:

Emmanuel,

Querría saber en sus conversaciones con su padre, si él recordó tiempo gastado con el Dagmar, mientras ella estuvo en el excile.
Los "fingidores" y su apoyo, no creen que Michael y Natalie ocultarían a un niño. Expliqué a ellos acerca de dinero de pagar de Michael para tener a su padre refugiado de todos. Es difícil al prueba algo cuándo historia no lo tiene escrito, por lo tanto, debemos mirar la historia que reescribe no fue nada es documentado.
Deseo asegurarse de que creo su reclamo, y no habría razón para usted hacer declaraciones que no son verdad al mundo. Yo me siento cierto que con el recuerdo de su madre, nosotros podemos demostrar su ascendencia 100%.
Saludos,
 
HMB

English translation:

Emmanuel,

Would want to know in his conversations with his father, if he recalled time spent with the Dagmar, while she was in the excile.  The "fake" and its support, they do not believe that Michael and Natalie would hide a boy.  I explained to them about money to pay of Michael to have its father refugee of all.  It is difficult to the proove something when history does not have it writing, therefore, we should look at the history that rewrites was not swum is documented.  Desire to be assured that I believe its claim, and do not there would be reason for you to do statements that are not true to the world.  I feel certain that with the memory of its mother, we can show its ancestry 100%. 

Greetings,
HMB

Emmanuel's reply:

Mi Padre casi siempre preferia no contar nada respecto a su pasado porque siempre me decia aun siendo niño yo que todo lo que lo rodeba en su pasado era dolor. Su abuela Dagmar lo vio en varias ocaciones a su nieto, y ella decia que queria anunciarlo a mi padre al mundo el dijo que por algo Mikhail habia derramdo su sangre por conservarlo vivo y que su muerte no iba a ser en vano que si su padre lo habia preferido asi el lo haria tal como su padre lo habia querido... Dagmar su abuela dijo que ella respetaba todo lo que su hijo habia hecho, y lo que es más ella lo comprendia mejor ya que era su hijo a quien ella habia dado a luz, pero si era su deseo ella lo respetaria y que ni en sus diarios de su vida por que bien tenia la nocion que tarde o temprano tras su muerte o sea la muerte de Dagmar, alguien leeria su diario personal.

English translation:

My Father almost always prefer to count not anything with respect to its past because always me saying even being a boy I that everything that it rodeba in its past was pain.  Its grandmother Dagmar saw it in several ocaciones to its grandson, and she saying that queria to announce it my father to the world the said that by something Mikhail habia derramdo its blood by conserving it alive and that its death was not going to be in vain that if its father it habia preferred asi the it haria just as its father it habia beloved...  Dagmar its grandmother said that she respected everything that its son habia done, and what is more she it comprendia better since was its son to whom she habia given birth, but if was its desire she it respetaria and that neither in its newspapers of its life because well tapeworm the nocion that sooner or later after its death that is to say the death of Dagmar, Someone need to read her diary.



Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2009, 07:06:12 PM
Dear toscany. I do believe in your serious investigation and all but..seeing the pictures and reading your post...i still cant believe it. Sorry.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 11, 2009, 07:30:23 PM
Dear toscany. I do believe in your serious investigation and all but..seeing the pictures and reading your post...i still cant believe it. Sorry.

Estimada Sra. Fyodorvna,

Es entendible cómo personas en este sitio, eso es tan joven, no puede creer.

Puedo relacionar al escepticismo, para ha sido un maestro de la escuela, y se da cuenta de cómo pruebas concluyentes son requeridas a dirigir los que serán los críticos.

Soy mucho más viejo, y crecí en una casa, fueron mi adoptó los padres de padre sobrevivieron muchos acontecimientos espantosos para dejar Rusia y venir a América.
 
Hay mucho más historias inauditas que los decir.

Saludos,

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on October 13, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
I also do not believe it, sorry to say. If there was a son of Michael, that we do not know about, he would or could have been in direct line of succession but to have stayed out of the picture for so long with no references at all does not stand up. I have always been a supported or Michael and he seemed a decent, brave honorable man, a lot better than some members of the dynasty at the time it would seem, and this just does not sit right. 
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 13, 2009, 01:16:11 PM
Michael HR, I agree, I do not buy this story either. However, such a son, phantom or not would certainly not be in the line of succession. He would have been  born of an unequal marriage and a divorced mother as well.  [I know the Vldimirs face the same contention, more or less]
 Also, thee would not have been any reason to "hide" such a son.   No Romanovs were chased down in exile by the Bolsheviks/Soviets.  They did not hide the first son, as has been mentioned. Barring DNA PROOF, this story reeks of another fantasy to me.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on October 13, 2009, 01:19:04 PM
Sorry Robert of course he did not have succession rights, badly constructed answer. 
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 14, 2009, 10:02:50 AM
I also do not believe it, sorry to say. If there was a son of Michael, that we do not know about, he would or could have been in direct line of succession but to have stayed out of the picture for so long with no references at all does not stand up. I have always been a supported or Michael and he seemed a decent, brave honorable man, a lot better than some members of the dynasty at the time it would seem, and this just does not sit right. 


Michael HR,

Many references have already be given to at least bring alive, the possibility.  There was a second son of the GD and Natalya, and I do intend to prove it.  The grandson, living in Uruguay, is only 27 years old. He is merely trying to fulfill his father's wishes.

The young man has access to his father's birth certificate.  Many of these royals lived in Edinburgh, Scotland, until the 1950's.

It is ok with me, that this particular young gentleman, and his story, will fall to ridicule until it is uncovered.  I am retired now, and I am happy to help him.

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Ally Kumari on October 14, 2009, 10:05:55 AM
Unless his DNA matches, I don´t think you can prove anything..... The diaries of Maria Fyodorovna were published and there is nothing about this supposed son.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 14, 2009, 10:25:14 AM
Unless his DNA matches, I don´t think you can prove anything..... The diaries of Maria Fyodorovna were published and there is nothing about this supposed son.

A DNA test is on the way....The Dagmar would not write anything in her diary about this grandson, because it was the GD Mikhail's wishes.  She knew of the importance. She knew of this baby, she saw him.

I will be happy to share the results.

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Douglas on October 14, 2009, 02:11:23 PM
Greetings Harry:

Why not post some photos of this grandson.   We like to size up the various claimants by how they appear and their general demeanor as to their suitability to be considered of the Imperial family.  You say he is twenty-seven and lives in Uruguay.

We've had a lot of new people show up on our doorstep with all kinds of claims. We take them as they come down the road...one at a time.

 Robert, who has recently posted on this topic,  is one of our experts at spotting authentic  royals from the faux ones.  We always  count on him for his seasoned advice and consent.  Michael HR, is also one of the most respected of our authenticators.

From all that you have presented so far, we may just have the real article here.  Time will tell.

With kind regards,

Douglas


I also do not believe it, sorry to say. If there was a son of Michael, that we do not know about, he would or could have been in direct line of succession but to have stayed out of the picture for so long with no references at all does not stand up. I have always been a supported or Michael and he seemed a decent, brave honorable man, a lot better than some members of the dynasty at the time it would seem, and this just does not sit right.  


Michael HR,

Many references have already be given to at least bring alive, the possibility.  There was a second son of the GD and Natalya, and I do intend to prove it.  The grandson, living in Uruguay, is only 27 years old. He is merely trying to fulfill his father's wishes.

The young man has access to his father's birth certificate.  Many of these royals lived in Edinburgh, Scotland, until the 1950's.

It is ok with me, that this particular young gentleman, and his story, will fall to ridicule until it is uncovered.  I am retired now, and I am happy to help him.

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 14, 2009, 02:27:12 PM
They are? so..what can they say about Dimitri`s picture? Mr Binkow posted it in page 6 of this topic ;-)
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 14, 2009, 03:30:15 PM
Greetings Harry:

Why not post some photos of this grandson.   We like to size up the various claimants by how they appear and their general demeanor as to their suitability to be considered of the Imperial family.  You say he is twenty-seven and lives in Uruguay.

We've had a lot of new people show up on our doorstep with all kinds of claims. We take them as they come down the road...one at a time.

 Robert, who has recently posted on this topic,  is one of our experts at spotting authentic  royals from the faux ones.  We always  count on him for his seasoned advice and consent.  Michael HR, is also one of the most respected of our authenticators.

From all that you have presented so far, we may just have the real article here.  Time will tell.

With kind regards,

Douglas

Dear Douglas,

Yes.  Time will tell for this young man...After all, he was only 11 years old when his father passed away.  How much does one learn of history, ancestry, or anthing else, at that age.  At the very least, his father shared with him who he was.  He is 27 years old, born in Edinburgh, Scotland UK 1982, and living with his mother in Montevideo, Uruguay.

Believe me, I was extremely skeptical, when I first met Emmanuel, however, I am now on his side 100%.  I have studied the Romanov Dynasty for 15 years, and have not been so intrigued as I am now.  Maybe because it sheds yet another light on the possibility of someone who lived in secrecy.  Could you imagine this type of life.  He has no reason to lie about his ancestry, and his father, who has been deceased for sixteen years now, would not have told him the story of his ancestry at 11 years old, to lie to him.  Emmanuel also attended The University of Glasgow, Scotland UK.  He did not graduate until he was 25.

Here is a photo of Emmanuel's parents, again , for you to view.  Ms. Fyodorovna is correct about me having posted their photo earlier in this thread.

http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/vv253/1toscany/?action=view&current=MYPARENTS-EmmanuelRomanov-1.jpg&newest=1

It is not important to me, especially at this time, to be concerned with any ridicule regarding this claim.  I expected it.  However, it is an opportunity of a life time to explore the evidence that this young gentleman has learned at an early age.  The key to the success of this research is, of course, YDNA37 evidence with another male Romanov.  I have forwarded to this claimant information from www.familytreedna.com to assure him that this is the only way to respect his father's wishes.

I realize all of you do not believe him or me, and it is completely understandable.  I had to test the waters here, to see how people who take these historical families of interest.  Having learned many things of my own familes flee from Russia, is the tip of the iceberg to determine everything.  Historic documentation of this period did not have all the answers immediately.  This is another course in patience...Thank you for your note.

Best regards,

Harry








I also do not believe it, sorry to say. If there was a son of Michael, that we do not know about, he would or could have been in direct line of succession but to have stayed out of the picture for so long with no references at all does not stand up. I have always been a supported or Michael and he seemed a decent, brave honorable man, a lot better than some members of the dynasty at the time it would seem, and this just does not sit right.  


Michael HR,

Many references have already be given to at least bring alive, the possibility.  There was a second son of the GD and Natalya, and I do intend to prove it.  The grandson, living in Uruguay, is only 27 years old. He is merely trying to fulfill his father's wishes.

The young man has access to his father's birth certificate.  Many of these royals lived in Edinburgh, Scotland, until the 1950's.

It is ok with me, that this particular young gentleman, and his story, will fall to ridicule until it is uncovered.  I am retired now, and I am happy to help him.

HMB
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 14, 2009, 06:19:13 PM
 Attention  "Toscany":  I have been following this discussion admittedly in a somewhat hapzard fashion, but you are to be congratulated for your devotion to its cause, WHERE EVER the truth may lie.  You say that DNA testing is on its way and that should be MOST interesting.  Let's for a moment look at the other side: In post #80, reference is made to this young person's mother as being allegedly in descent from the noble (would anone expect less in marriage of a  putative "Romanov"?) families Hohenzollern and Stewart (Stuart ?).   "Stewart/Stuart"  is indeed a common name.  And then, potentially in reference to the Hohenzollerns, we have this quote from the young man: (Post # 2) "My grandfather on my mother's side is the son of Joachim."  Do we have published/printed, independently verifiable proof of these exhalted connections of his mother as how this occurred, or is this simply "word of mouth" ?  With best regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 14, 2009, 06:54:49 PM
Addendum/correction to Post # 96:  The correct Post number for the quote about "Joachim" is # 82,  NOT #2 as I typed in my immediately previous post.  My apologies.  AP.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Belochka on October 15, 2009, 01:51:32 AM
The only suitable place for Toscany's assertions are here alongside all the other convoluted myths perpetrated by so many other claimants or third parties who tend to be drawn to this Forum.

But carry on Sir, have your fun in the meantime, the more you reveal the more one can judge how absurd this story is!


 
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 15, 2009, 10:02:33 AM
Attention  "Toscany":  I have been following this discussion admittedly in a somewhat hapzard fashion, but you are to be congratulated for your devotion to its cause, WHERE EVER the truth may lie.  You say that DNA testing is on its way and that should be MOST interesting.  Let's for a moment look at the other side: In post #80, reference is made to this young person's mother as being allegedly in descent from the noble (would anone expect less in marriage of a  putative "Romanov"?) families Hohenzollern and Stewart (Stuart ?).   "Stewart/Stuart"  is indeed a common name.  And then, potentially in reference to the Hohenzollerns, we have this quote from the young man: (Post # 2) "My grandfather on my mother's side is the son of Joachim."  Do we have published/printed, independently verifiable proof of these exhalted connections of his mother as how this occurred, or is this simply "word of mouth" ?  With best regards,  AP.

Dear Aleksandr Pavlovich,

Thank you for the kind words.  I am pleased that I can, at the very least, voice questions and comments here, without too much ridicule.  The truth is, of course, I expected it.  However, I did not expect to be congratulated, so I am most humbled by your comments.  I am only here to help Emmanuel with this most intriguing story.

The questions that you have regarding Emmanuel's mother, is where I have come across the most difficulty.  She is alive, and I have impressed Emmanuel, as early as today, that his mother is the "key" to the success of our ancestry documentation.  I have asked him to permit me to communicate with here directly, for she holds the memories closer than anyone else.  Here is what I do know of  Suzanne Lanka Hohenzollern-Stewart (b 11 December 1945 - present), Edinburgh, Scotland UK.  Current residence, Montevideo, Uruguay.  My first question here, is why would a Europen immigrate to Uruguay?

Father: Manfred Wilhelm Hohenzollern ( 22 May 1915 - 12 April 1996), relative of Wilhelm I (?)

Mother: Katherine Hohenzollern (Stewart) ( 15 September 1919 - 4 July 2004).  Father was Leopold Stewart.

I am having the most difficulties here with a living parent.  I am working on a "Family Tree" to have Emmanuel print out, take to his mother, and fill it out to the best of their knowledge. So, to answer your question to the best of my current knowledge, "yes", this is word of mouth from the mother - through the claimant.

Best regards,

Harry
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: toscany on October 15, 2009, 10:27:49 AM
The only suitable place for Toscany's assertions are here alongside all the other convoluted myths perpetrated by so many other claimants or third parties who tend to be drawn to this Forum.

But carry on Sir, have your fun in the meantime, the more you reveal the more one can judge how absurd this story is!


 

Belochka,

Time will tell whether or not this is just another absurd story, or the truth.  Passing judgement, before one hears the whole truth, is like finding someone guilty before the trial! However, believe what you wish, I am not worried.

As I have stated before, I do not believe that this young man is a pathological liar. I also do not believe his father was one either!

Here is another communication from Emmanuel, regarding his mother' family:

Mi abuela materna era Katherine Stewart, ella es nacida en Escocia nacio el 15 de Setiembre de 1919, y fallecio el 4 de julio del año 2004, se hablar alemán y mi madre de toda la vida sabe hablar tambien en alemán, mi abuelo Manfred Wilhelm Hohenzollern nacio 22 de Mayo de 1915, y fallecio el 12 de Abril de 1996.

Translation:

My maternal grandmother was Katherine Stewart, she is born in Scotland being born the 15 of September of 1919, and died July 4, the year 2004, be to spoken German and my mother of all the life knows to speak  in German well, my grandfather Manfred Wilhelm Hohenzollern being born May 22, 1915, and died April 12, 1996.

Why should this young man lie?  What would be in it for him? I do not believe that Emmanuel is spewing nonsense, just to be heard.

HMB

Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 15, 2009, 10:47:53 AM
Answering your question about emigration, lots of european emigrated  in early 1900s and mids 1930s to south america, in special english, russian , yugoslavian , spanish and italian people.

In chile we have a large comunnity of  those Colonies, so, its isnt an uncommon thing the emigration of europeans to south america (im part of the Spanish and Yugoslavian comunnity in chile and my fiance is part of the Italian).
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 15, 2009, 01:08:45 PM
Attention: "Toscany" and your reply # 99:     Thank you very much indeed for your kind and immediate reply to my queries.  I do agree that the extant mother's information would be valuable input, TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS GERMANE AND PROVABLE. That is the caveat.  Oral or "Living History" is a tricky thing.  It is only as good as the person being interviewed, as well as the skill/knowledge of the interviewer.  As you well know, "Toscany," people from generation to generation (even recent  ones) may orally garble their histories, sometimes because of age, diminution of memory, and sometimes intentionally for enhancement/prestige.  Passed along orally, enough, it becomes "truth", especially when the source dies: "Well, my grandmother told my mother, and my mother told ME........".  This also becomes further complicated when a "foreign" language/dialect is involved. Intonation, colloquial usage, etc. can be more than problematic in rendering exactness in communication.  Thus, DNA today provides a closer solution, as well as will DOCUMENTED descent in the prominent family archives.  The history of the "Royal" Stuarts/Stewarts (as opposed to the "common" Stuarts/Stewarts") would be quite well documented, as well as that of the Hohenzollerns.  Is it possible then to "miss" a person?  Yes, truthfully,  especially when the person in question is a minor (no pun intended!) figure and most likely illegitimate.  The person that YOU represent is in an alleged class of descent that should have numerous open avenues of documented proof available.....IF.....IF....the premise is TRUE.  Finally, with all respect and candor, I do not find myself to be a believer, but certainly will keep an open mind.  I wish you and the young person success in your endeavor, wherever it may lead.   With best wishes,  AP.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Douglas on October 15, 2009, 06:07:46 PM
Yes, AP is quite correct about uncovering the past.  In my own case my father  has been deceased for almost 50 years. Myself and my siblings have only recently discovered that he had at least four  children by women other than our mother.  It's a very strange story to be sure.

History can indeed have many strange and twisting turns.

As AP pointed out, even if Emmanuel is a blood relative of past royalty, he may so far removed from more immediate relatives that the fact is totally meaningless.

Althought I do believe that I was secreted away  Sandringham House  at birth and that I really am a lost son of  Queen Elizabeth II. I have this strange attraction to white wainscoting.

AP, I'm sure has some of the royal blood in his background.  I can tell by his proper use of grammer.  Plus his table manners are impecable.

T. Douglas  
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 15, 2009, 06:18:50 PM
I accord you a "neck-bow," Sir.  This would be proper etiquette in your being from the Castle of Mey and its occupants!  (But bear in mind that the castle has only relatively recently been with Her Majesty's late mother.)  With best regards,  AP.   ADDENDUM:  Ahh! Now I understand the site to be Sandringham!  Still, the neck-bow stands!  Regards,  AP
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Douglas on October 15, 2009, 06:23:57 PM
I return to you the same courtesy....and thank you so kindly.  Warm regards, TD.

Oh, BTW, I did have to change a few items in my previous post.  This has been a rather hectic day.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 15, 2009, 06:37:03 PM
No problem, Majesty.  I saw such and added an acknowledgment as an addendum to my original reply (Post #104) to your kind comments !   With best regards,  AP
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on October 16, 2009, 05:02:25 AM
Family trees are great. When I started mine I discovered that my Grand Father's family were Irish, which I did not know and was very surprised. Can't look at a road now without wanting to dig it up! You never know what turns up when you start researching. In the case of the Romanov's only DNA would prove one way or other. While I would love to learn that a son survived, if only to see the look on GD Maria's face, I have difficulty with the fact that this would have been hidden so well for so long. But I wish you well in your research.

Mike
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Sara Araújo on May 19, 2010, 05:33:53 AM
This one is going to be long...  :)

This is a message I've received yesterday on YouTube:

I am a historian investigator, very involved in a research project regarding the entire Romanov Family.

You answered a question on one of your beautifully done videos on Mikhail. You stated that it is not believed that he escaped.

I can state that he and Nicholas Johnson, his secretary, were not shot by the Bolcheviks in Perm!

Our research has shown Mikhail incarcerated by the Bolcheviks, and then the Soviets, in a gulog in Siberia. He entered into a monestary there, became and became a monk. Research additional shows us that he lived until 1971.

None of the Imperial Family of the Czar were murdered. They were rescued and lived their lives under alias names. There was nothing wrong with the mind of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna, when she said that she knew her son, Nicholas II, and his family were still alive!

Best regards,


To this my reply was:

I'd like to believe that what your research found is true, but evidence seems to show strongly that at least the family members taken to Siberia were indeed killed. I'm not just mentioning the Tsar, his wife and children, but also the Tsarina's sister, Elizabeth Feodorovna, Grand Duke Sergei Mikhailovich as well as Princes John Constantinovich, Constantine Constantinovich, Igor Constantinovich and Vladimir Pavlovich Paley.

You may argue, like many have, that the bodies of the main imperial family are fake and I may disagree. But the one true evidence that at least 6 people were killed by the communists, and those are precisely the Alapaevsk victims, as their bodies were found in September 1918. There are pictures of this bodies, well spread at the time as well as today in several books and the internet. A simple research on Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna will take you to them.

As for the other Grand Dukes who were killed in the Peter and Paul Fortress, at least one body was found, that of Grand Duke Dmitri Constantinovich. The others were not found, it's true, but why would Grand Duke Paul's family live in extreme poverty, his wife in permanent depression, if he was alive? I don't think from what I've read about him, he would have permitted it.

So I completely disagree that none of the family members died. I can't argue about Mikhail, since it's true that his body was not found, but other than that, I don't believe their story was so simple.

Best regards,

Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Sara Araújo on May 19, 2010, 05:34:18 AM
And he finaly gave me this long reply:

I can prove that your statements are incorrect, with many documents, interviews, and books that would support the evidence of the Imperial Family's rescue.

You and the media, have fallen into the belief of their murders, which is exactly what was intentially planned in the efforts of numerous countries and monarchies across the world, and the agents that aided the Tsar, Tsarina, Tsarevich, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, and Anastasia to safety.

Our commission is working on a documentary that will prove all of this. If you are really interested in what happened to the Imperial Family, and how their execution was intentionally staged, I would suggest the following books and materials that are published information.

You must be very young to have fallen for the fairy tale books and movies that depict the family. I am not being arrogant, simply stating facts. I am a historian investigator, and have worked on this case, as well as claimants cases for 10 years.

Here are my suggestions, along with the sequence that you should consider readings:

"Rescuing The Czar", Published 1920, by James P. Smythe (This is an alias name, his true identity is that of William R. McGarry (American).

"The File On The Tsar", by Summers and Mangold

"Hunt For The Czar", by Guy Richards

"The Rescue of the Romanovs", by Guy Richards

"Imperial Agent", by Guy Richards

There were many reasons why things happend as they did. The intensity of the rescue was, of course, handicapped by WWI. The leverage, however, was in the hands of Kaiser Wilhelm II, first cousin to Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse). In the below treaty, signed in 1918, included specific demands to release the Imperial Family in exchange for valuable aids of Lenin that were held in Germany. If Lenin did not oblige this treaty, his effort to form a soviet state in Russia would have been a disaster. Obviously you do not agree that an exchange was made, however, it did occur. I know of all the living family, their alias(s) used from people who were already deceased. I also know where they are buried. That were given their nationalities and passports. A requirement was that each individual must completely disappear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

The governments of the USA, UK, and The Vatican, were all involved in the rescue. The monarchy's of Germany, England, Japan, China (we have evidence that the last Emperor Pu-Yi gave $50,000.00 toward the rescue operation which was successful), Romania, and Italy assisted in this endeavor. Further, the entire operation is still considered 'state secrets' due to the involvement of these governments, as well as what occured behind the Iron Curtain, and 'Cold War' of the West and Soviet Union, until it's demise in December 1991. As you can see, only a few years have past, allowing us to gain entrance into various files concerning this case.

Do you know of this woman?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascalina_Lehnert

The Pontiff Pope Pius XII received both Grand Duchesses Olga and Maria Nicholaevna Romanova in his chambers in 1953, after news of Stalin's death. She met them, as the Pontiff's assistant and administrator. When he died, she destroyed many secret documents. The Vatican was extremely upset with her, and threw her out. What the information above does not explain , is that Sister Lehnert was found dead in a chair at the Vienna Airport. The Holy Sea, has been a protectorate of many political dissidents and royal families.

Now, you may believe what you wish, however, the truth is, Anna Anderson was in fact the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanova. She breached the secrecy of the presummed identitiy that she was given,

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm

I strongly recommend that you also read Peter Kurth's book, "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson". The Grand Duchess Anastasia had absolutely nothing to hide! She knew exactly who she was! If you know anything about the character of this Grand Duchess, you will learn to understand why we seek the truth!

I can go on with every single daughter, the Tsar, Tsarina, and all those who had a hand in this concealment, however if you have no interst in believing it is a waste of my time. You and the world will soon learn of this escapade, the staging at Ekaterinburg, and the charade that has followed to this day.

I can only tell you of things that are published information. The documentary is still in production, and evidence and interviews are sealed until we go public. What I can share with you are some living people, who are completely aware of exactly what happened: Prince Michael of Kent, Queen Elizabeth II and the House of Windsor, The Vatican, Henry Kissenger, (he opened the 'Chivers Papers in the 1970's), CIA, Princess Maria Vladimirovna, Germany, Italy,Vladimir Putin, and Russia. The indiviuals named are totally aware of this as a known 'state secret'. Can you possiblt imagine what would have happened if the secret was out while there were nuclear war heads facing the USA and the Soviet Union?

If your interest of what really happened to this family is sincere, you will at least, review the materials I can publicly share at this time.

Lastly, I was raised by a Ukranian father whose parents escaped from their home in Odessa during this period. One thing my father always said to me, "Never trust a Russian!". If you prefer to trust what the Russian government is saying to the world about their excavation of those bones, and the notification to the world as such, go ahead.

Best regards,


Since I'm no expert on the claims of survival, what do you think about this?
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on May 19, 2010, 06:46:56 AM
 Re Reply 108,109:  Other than the usual "ho-hum" theories espoused here, the reading list is unusually stale, badly out-dated and one-sided, having been regurgitated time and time again.  It is interesting that your correspondent includes BOTH the mysterious and convoluted "Rescuing the Czar" (IMO, a totally laughable volume, quoted at length in Richard's, "The Hunt for the Czar") and the more respectable, but faulty Summers and Mangold volume, which, if my memory serves me correctly, totally disparages the basic premise of the "Smythe" book.  They state that they went through the archives of that author, which his son has/had in storage in Florida, finding (again if I remember correctly) that it was an obvious attempt to sell the tale for potential movie rights, and even quote US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's comment (obliquely sought in a mid-air flight at their request) that heavily/bluntly puts down the essential premise ("rescue," so-called US secret State Dept. "Romanov File, " etc.) of the "Smythe," et al. volumes.  All in all, this person may state whatever opinion he wishes, but seems sadly mis-led/biased. I wonder what his "bottom-line" is, fiscally? The "documentary"?  I personally would not further waste my time in these theories.   AP
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Kalafrana on May 19, 2010, 07:23:41 AM
It all sounds inherently unlikely.

But let's start from first principles. Where does the accepted account of the murder of Mikhail and Brian Johnson come from? A member of the execution squad - why would he lie? when was he writing, and what in? I'm asking the last question because I don't know.

No bodies have ever been found. But on a practical level I think the bodies being eaten by wolves is entirely plausible.


Why no investigation? When did the Whites reach Perm, and how long did they hold it for? We have to recall that the Czech Legion reached Ekaterinburg only a week after the massacre, and held it for almost a year - plenty of time to investigate? Also the family were known to be in Ekaterinburg. Was Mikhail known to be in Perm? And Nicholas and family were a good deal more newsworthy than Mikhail.

I agree with the point made earlier that if Mikhail had got out of Russia he would have made contact with his family - and remember that he not only had a wife and child, he also had two sisters of whom he was fond, as well as his mother. If he had stayed in hiding in Russia, communications would obviously have been difficult, but somehow the idea just seems unlikely.

As to 'Mikhail's grandson' Emmanuel, it again sounds inherently unlikely. I could buy the idea of Natalie being pregnant when she left Russia, if that was what was claimed. How exactly did she get out and when? I know George Brassov left with his governess posing as his mother. And since George's existence was not concealed, surely there was no reason to conceal a second child.

As far as the Stuart element is concerned, the Stuart's were not a prolific dynasty - a particularly high proportion died childless. To go back a bit, Mary Queen of Scots was until the birth of her son the only living legitimate descendant of James II (1437-60). The nearest alternative heirs were the Earls of Arran, descended from James II's sister. James VI and I was an only child. The Stuart male line then goes through Charles I and James II to the Old Pretender and his sons, ending with the death of the Cardinal Duke of York in 1807. Every other possible Stuart descendant descends either through female lines (and so is not called Stuart), or possibly from illegitimate issue of the Stewart kings, of whom there were quite a few, but I don't know how many left male line descendants.

Ann
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on May 19, 2010, 07:49:05 AM
Hello, Ann:  Not having my references in front of me (but they can be found easily in any standard work/s about the GD), the reports were written by the assassins, one of whom had trouble with faulty ammunition in carrying out the deed.  One of the assassins was later seen wearing Johnson's watch. A speculative thought that arises from time to time, is that the bodies were later disposed of in a near-by blast furnace, but I have never seen this theory enhanced.  Regards, AP
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Michael HR on May 19, 2010, 01:29:00 PM
I have to agree that if GD Michael had somehow survived he would have made some sort of contact with the Imperial family in exile. I understand that there are now searches taking place where they think the murder took place. Perhaps something will be found. I hope so as I rather liked Michael and would like to see him laid to rest properly. I think he was the best of the family had had vision based on the needs of Russia rather than just the crown.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: tutsi on May 25, 2010, 01:50:54 AM
Well then, what do you all think of this official statement from the Romanovs on 24th February 2010?....

 
2010-02-24 16:18:00
House of Romanovs wants royal remains to be re-examined
Moscow, February 24, Interfax - The House of Romanovs has said it wants to re-examine what is thought to be the remains of the last Russian Tsar Nicholas II and his family found in Yekaterinburg.

"Unfortunately, there is too much confusion in this case and some serious errors were made when the Yekaterinburg remains were being identified," Prince Georgy Mikhailovich, the son of the Romanovs' House head Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, told Interfax on Wednesday.

"Many of the facts uncovered suggest that the Commission was staging a political show for a date, rather than working to establish the truth," Romanov said.

The remains were buried in St. Petersburg in 1998 in haste and in defiance of the opinion of the Russian Orthodox Church and the House of Romanovs, he said.

"No satisfactory answers have been provided to the ten questions, formulated by independent scholars and referred to the Commission back in 1998 by the late Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II. Meanwhile, those were questions, which interested not only experts, but also people and millions of believers. The Church needed to console these people instead of leaving them with a feeling of having been deceived. The Commission did not care. There was a farce instead of an act of repentance and purification," he said.

The remains' authenticity must be further studied, Romanov said.

Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 28, 2010, 09:26:45 AM
Today looking for info i stumble upon this link which says that Mikhail survived nand became a monk. The website has pages and if you have google chrome you can easily translate it

http://solovkymemorial.ru/tprcsv.htm

This story was previously posted here but the link posted are not longer online and there was no pictures about the supposed "monk Misha"
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on May 28, 2010, 11:27:21 AM
Response to Reply # 115:  Thanks for the web-site link.  Interesting, BUT..........as long as the remains of the body of GD Michael A. are not present in some form, there will ALWAYS be speculation on the survival of the "Emperor for a Day."  Potentially, if the DNA of the religious individual was available for examination, it MIGHT be useful in this case.  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Claimants of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich
Post by: tutsi on June 05, 2010, 09:27:08 PM
How weird. My father showed me a beautiful sword he has many years ago and told me it belonged to Prince Michael. It is very beautiful. I wonder if it really is the sword that belonged to Prince Michael or not...IF its true would it really be possible for him to have purchased this at auction which is the standard answer I get when ever I ask how he came to have such things as this....hmm... Most probably its not Prince Michaels because it would one think stay in the family and how could this be true when my father is just a simple carpenter and his surname is Usov. Even weirder he says one of his ancestors won the town of Usov in Russia in a card game. Nothing about how he came to have such things makes sense to me.. I think I'll change my name to Smith...lol...or maybe DeNote.....Its most probably all just a big story and no truth to it at all.