Alexander Palace Forum

Books and Films about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia => Books about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia => Topic started by: Chris Snyder on February 19, 2004, 08:07:33 PM

Title: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Chris Snyder on February 19, 2004, 08:07:33 PM
Has anyone read the book by Shay McNeal titled "The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar: New Truths about the Romanovs"?  And if so, what are their opinions on the book.  To me it seems very well researched with ample documentations, although the author seems to repeat her own opinions often.  If many of these "sources" and bits of information in the book are to be believed, it throws new light on many aspects of the case thought to have been "accepted fact"  I find especially interesting the excerpts of intelligence letters from various governments and officials to each other after 1918 concerning the Romanov family.  It also raises questions about the real role that Lenin played in the dissapearance of the family.  Any opinions?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AnneS on February 24, 2004, 10:01:19 PM
Chris, I am currently reading "The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar".  Haven't got very far, but I'll try to post some thoughts after I finish.  Just wanted you to know that someone else out here has heard of it.  ;)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 24, 2004, 10:15:57 PM
In Britain is is titled THE PLOTS TO SAVE THE TSAR. [2001] It does deal with different "plots".
Despite the cover blurb "The truth behind the disappearance...etc." it  comes up with no definite conclusions.  Well researched, worth a read if one is interested in the plots & conspiricies side of the story.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 12, 2004, 07:02:09 PM
With the Stanford-Los Alamos National Laboratory paper discrediting Gill and Ivanov, suddenly 'what if' has a new and clearer meaning. . .
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 19, 2004, 02:37:31 AM
However, the seeds from that tree do .
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 20, 2004, 11:30:28 PM
If you want to read the book, don't pay retail or borrow it from a library or a friend. It's not a very good book.

McNeal was not interested in anything but her own idea of what may have happened - and certainly not the truth.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 21, 2004, 02:41:36 PM
It is harmless fluff. Easily found in used book stores. I found it entertaining. Of course it is totally discredited, if it was ever taken seriously in the first place.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 21, 2004, 05:39:23 PM
And how was it discredited?  By Gill and Ivanov?

::)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 22, 2004, 02:19:00 AM
In my opinion, the notes are sloppy & the bibliograghy is a blatant copy.
Other than that, it was not taken seriously by legit reviewers.
There is honest criticism as well as prejudice. Perhaps I am prejudiced. I found the book faulty
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 22, 2004, 07:26:16 PM
Interestingly, the same can be said for virtually every book published about the Imperial Family in the past 20 years.   ;)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 23, 2004, 02:15:09 AM
Only the past 20 years, Rodger?
I did say I may be prejudiced. Even about some of the postings on this board.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: _Rodger_ on March 23, 2004, 08:17:17 AM
I was being . . . charitable.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: CuriousOne on July 11, 2004, 03:08:16 PM
My copy is titled:
THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR by Shay McNeal.
Published 2001.

Same book?

Curious One
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: JM on July 11, 2004, 03:24:25 PM
Quote
In Britain is is titled THE PLOTS TO SAVE THE TSAR. [2001] It does deal with different "plots".
Despite the cover blurb "The truth behind the disappearance...etc." it  comes up with no definite conclusions.  Well researched, worth a read if one is interested in the plots & conspiricies side of the story.


Apparently it's the same book.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Alexa on July 30, 2004, 02:57:32 PM
Quote
It is the same book..UK edition published almost a yr before the US edition.  A blend of  National Enquirer and Popular Mechanics.  Some errors in the UK version corrected in US book.  Elizaveta


If it is the same book, they didn't catch all the errors in the US edition.  I've tried several times to read this, but have never been able to get past the firs few chapters due to the incorrect information I come across.  I think I drew the line and finally put it down when MA was referred to as "Prince" Michael and not Grand Duke.  Might seem trivial to some, but imho if one's going to write about the IF, at least get their titles right.  Needless to say, I'm happy the book was given to me and I didn't wast the $25 on it.

Alexa
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Alexandra on September 02, 2004, 07:07:33 AM
Yes, I have read it; I do not think it can be said to have stated anything conclusively, although it raises interesting possibilities. Until the documents which she uses are themselves more available to genuine scholarship, including those to be declassified in 2005, I do not think the book amounts to much more than an attempt at another Romanov 'scoop.'
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Abby on September 02, 2004, 09:40:03 AM
Alexandra, could you tell us what documents are yet to be declassified? I am curious!
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 17, 2005, 06:41:03 PM
This was posted on one of the DNA theads.  I thought it should be here and maybe someone would like to make some remarks about what donaldrynolds tells us:

Quote
Hello to all on this thread,

At the end of this email I will pose a question. Let me start by saying, I heard McNeal, the author of The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar, speak last fall.  She was even handed and articulate.  Yet here in this forum she is alluded to by one posting as "not a favorite here."  

I sense from most of what I read that, except a few, not many have even read her book. Her reviews in the Times in London were very good and many academics appreciate her work. It seems that there is a bias here driven by a few - for what reason I don't yet grasp - that has tainted her book to some here who should read it.

I have read her book now several times.  It lead me to some fascinating findings.  In the Q and A period, I did ask her about the DNA - about which she subsequently spoke at length.  At the time the Stanford story was not known to me.  If it had been I would have asked.  But it seems to me that if she had been a part of it she might have wanted to have a few bragging rights.  But she never mentioned it.  

Not long ago I decided to email her on her site.  She responsed quickly and pleasantly. She stated once again, as she did in the lecture, that she was not interested in anyone claiming to be a Romanov.  She said she has been contacted countless times by those claiming to be a Romanov.  She said her interest in writing the book was only to enlighten her reader about the geo-political situation in Russia at the time.  She also said and I quote, "I wanted to examine the allied position regarding Nicholas and his family and therefore I focused mainly on the allied records. and its sercret agents and disinformation efforts.  Moreover, I came to believe that after examing all the efforts at disinformation,  which were widespread, that the Soviets were the masters of the game. They made it an art form, in most cases surpassing the British, for whom Wallsingham, in the reign of Elizabeth, had cultivated the most remarkable methods.  Hence, the Soviet version had to be examined and much of what they alluded in on the night of July 17/18, 1918 simply did not stand up."

When she addressed my question about DNA and Stanford she did say she had high regard for Dr. Lev Zhivotovsky and Dr. Knight and did not believe they had an agenda other than science.  As to the Litwin angle she was at a loss. She said Dr. Zhivotosky was the first to raise questions in the Duma about the Romanovs' demise.  According to McNeal he is a widely respected scientist in Russia.  He was also the first to raise the chain of custody issue. She said that she was not a part of the team nor was she a "consultant."

I have since emailed her again after reading on this site that she was a consultant to the Stanford study even though she had told me she was not.  I thought someone knew something new. She emailed back that as she had already told me, she was not.  But she attempted to enlighten me as to how this notion might have come about.

She said she originally came into contact with a woman who she found very interesting. They actually were in  contact initially regarding a man who McNeal was featuring in her next book.  She said she is working on the untold story of the American Revolution through the eyes of a presumed Tory.  Apparently, this woman also had an interest in this Tory's family.  At the time McNeal came into contact with her she had as a house guest this Litwin.  

According to McNeal that is how the Litwin person came to her attention.  (Now I  am seeing that the Daskova must be the woman McNeal stated was the person who had a common interest in the Revolutionary character's history. I emailed back to ask about this realtionship between the woman and Litwin but according to McNeal it would be indiscrete to elaborate further on the relationship of his woman (Doskova ?) and Litwin.  She suggested if I was really interested I should contact the two of them.  Sorry no gossip here.

I also asked her if she was aware of how this site cast her name around as being involved.  Again she promptly replied.  She stated that her work is often quoted.  But the fact that she is quoted as a source or that she has politely responded to emails or had "conversations with people who have contacted me to argue their case does not mean I support them or believe their assertions.  You may be assured when I sign my name then I am involved.  Short of that, much of what I read and hear amounts to speculation of those who do not know me or contact me for my position. And you may quote me on that."

All told she did say that ocassionally she has viewed this site but time is important to her and her focus is her next two books on other eras of history.

My question - sent to her today and now to you.  Why do so many people here on this forum seem to accept the Soviet point of view without truly submitting it to a critical analysis?  That is the one thing I took away from her book.  Not the same old story.  So much of what I have read seems fixated on who sleep with whom etc. It seems like anytime someone attempts to encourage a discussion, without this subtext, the discussion breaks down to "liberal v conservative" political views of the world and plain old personal assults and gossip.  If this is supposed to be a site for learning then should it seek a different tone?

Why not a search for the truth incorporating all points of view?  I welcome all responses to my question.  

Donald


AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 17, 2005, 07:07:04 PM
I wrote the following on a different thread and pulled it over here to continue the conversation which Donald has brought up in his post:

Quote

....[in part]....

It is obvious to me that most of the "majority" have never written a novel [a book which has fictional characters placed in real events].  Sometimes,  a novel can be closer to the truth than a book under the listing of "non-fiction".

The rescue of the IF in Rescuing of the Czar was fictional, however, the people who wrote it were not.  A lot of the information in the book was not fictional.  The authors were in touch with real people who may have been a part of the "inner circles" of those who had hoped to rescue Nicholas II and the others.  They, may, in fact, had heard a rescue had occured....  So, they quickly made up a "possible escape" and hoped to make big bucks quickly.... Trouble was,  the IF and the others didn't appear... The CHEKA reported execution of Nicholas II on the night of 16/17 July 1918....  Something had gone terrible wrong.  ???

The information which surrounded the "rescue" [the presumed fictional part] of RTC,  I believe, is what Shay McNeal tried to discover as either being "truth" or "fiction".

Elisabeth is the expert on the people who took part in writing and printing the book, I am just speculating.  And,  I respect what she has to say.

However,  let me, again,  repeat what Shay McNeal wrote in THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR, THE TRUTH BEHIND THE DISAPPERANCES OF THE ROMANOVS, the first few sentences on page 1:
"Of all the victims of the Russian Revolution, Tsar Nicholas II, Tsarina Alexandra and their five children are perhaps the most famous and certainly among the most controversial.  Their presumed deaths on 17 July 1918 have been the subject of several investigations and numberous books.  Although the standard account of their execution by a Bolshevik firing squad was questioned from the very beginning, it has never been disproven."

Let me repeat this last part: "...Although the standard account of their execution by a Bolshevik firing squad was questioned from the beginning, it has never been disproven."

"NEVER BEEN DISPROVEN"

THEN  she goes on to say, what I've been saying, long before she ever wrote her first few sentences, that the CHEKA's  story of what happen the night of 16/ 17 July 1918 in the Impatiev House may have  "...differed vastly from the offical story of the last days of the Romanovs.".

Yes, she used RTC....

 I have never read but bites and pieces of it that were on the internet...

Back on page 267 Shay writes:

"But did the family survive?  Did one of the factions suceed in taking control of the family and were they taken to Lysva....?  Did they subsequently meet their fate in Perm....?  We know practically nothing about this....therefore cannot adequately weigh it, as the event quickly and with little investigation disappeared from the pages of history."

"Or did the family actually disappear by being evacuated through the tunnel and escape for a time via the route in Rescuing the Czar?"

"If they did, one thing is certain, the sightings all but dry up by the 1930s.  The long arm of the communist red terror, as we have seen, very effectively hunted down and destroyed its enemies..."


Through all my years of research,  I read just about everything connected.  As I have said on another thread,  I would not recommend Shay's book as a first read, however,  I would not eliminate it just because it doesn't follow the views of the majority.  It's up to each of us to make up our own opinions after collecting as much data as we can.

A dispointed old bear searching for the truth.

AGRBear


 

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on March 18, 2005, 12:19:37 AM
Hi donaldrynolds,

Why do you think it is, with the Russian archives now open to the West for scrutiny, that there has not been one single document presented for public scrutiny, that clearly states that any member of the I.F. had actually survived the massacre?

_____________________________________________

Today at 12:56pm, donaldreynolds wrote:

"My question - sent to her today and now to you.  Why do so many people here on this forum seem to accept the Soviet point of view without truly submitting it to a critical analysis?"

_____________________________________________

Perhaps you could clarify your view? I respectfully invite you to present your contentions here so that we can all analyze what it is that you refute.

Thank you.
 
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 18, 2005, 10:26:32 AM
I can not answer for Donald, however, I will give my opinion.

Let me see, the only eye witnesses we have are the ones who have written the testimonies of wha happen on the night of 16/17 July in the Impatiev House.  Each one has told their story with some important differences.   The doctuments found which surround the event are few.  The bodies in the mass grave are missing far too many bones for this to have been their first or second buriel place.  Part of the bones have been removed [skulls and others bones] at different times then replaced.  Two bodies are missing and all witnesses tell us that the female missing is someone other than one of Nicholas II's daughters.  The Russians and the Americans do no agree as to who is missing.

The annouced death was first just Nicholas II and maybe Alexei.  There are eye wittnesses which tell us the Reds were sent to find the IF on trains and in the woods.  Anastasia and Alexei are mentioned by several of those eye wittnesses who talk about searches on trains near Ekaterinburg.   Even in AA's trial there was a man who claimed he had treated GD Anastasia after she was said to have beene executed.  The Moscow Soviets claimed Alexandra and the children had been taken from Ekaterinburg to somewhere safe.  Maybe somehwere to the north....  And, so the lies were piled upon lies.

The CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets, the GPU, the KGB , Lenin and so many others from that time  to the fall of the Berlin wall have had access to records, letters, diaries, etc. etc.   and have had full opportunity to make sure any evidence which they so wish not to be found has been destroyed since July 1918 to the present.

Apparently, the thought that the CHEKA to the KGB destroying and fabicating evidence doesn't seem to have much weight with many of the posters.  Well, that's understandable.  The Lenninites, the Stalinites and the other communists "old boy group" did an excellent job in erasing the truth so many times that their "red herrings" and their lies which have been repeated so often appear, now, to be the truth.

I have talked to people and have read books, letters, newspapers which have told true stories of how ruthless these Bolshevik and communist were.

McNeal's book pulled out many facts which I've found interesting.
Facts which other authors / reporters haven't thought necessary to reveal.  But, in the case of the execution, buriel and the two missing bodies, ALL  facts are needed.  And, I for one, appreciated McNeal's book for this reason.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Elisabeth on March 18, 2005, 02:14:30 PM
Bear, I have not read McNeal's book (because my local libraries don't carry it) and therefore I don't know what her main points are. Perhaps you or someone else here could summarize them for the rest of us?

Quote
The bodies in the mass grave are missing far too many bones for this to have been their first or second buriel place.  Part of the bones have been removed [skulls and others bones] at different times then replaced.


This brings up an interesting point. Apparently there were a number of bones in the mass grave that did simply disappear - they were not removed and later replaced - they just plain vanished. I distinctly remember reading in Greg and Penny's book that the number of bones in the mass grave in Pig's Meadow did not add up to anything near 9 skeletons; that a lot of bones were actually missing and had seemingly vanished into thin air. I am wondering if there is a scientific explanation for this that someone like Helen Azar could address (decomposition due to acidic conditions, for example). Or perhaps it is a genuine mystery, - frankly I don't know because I don't have the scientific background. At this point I would start another thread myself - called "The Missing Bones" - in the "Final Chapter" section - but as it happens I cannot find the specific pages in FOTR where this subject was addressed, even though I know they are there somewhere... help!

Quote
The annouced death was first just Nicholas II and maybe Alexei.  There are eye wittnesses which tell us the Reds were sent to find the IF on trains and in the woods.


I think this was just a search for a missing grand duchess, reportedly Anastasia, and not for the IF.

Quote
Anastasia and Alexei are mentioned by several of those eye wittnesses who talk about searches on trains near Ekaterinburg.


Where is it mentioned that Alexei was searched for? I haven't read about these reports. Is this in McNeal?

Quote
Apparently, the thought that the CHEKA to the KGB destroying and fabicating evidence doesn't seem to have much weight with many of the posters.  Well, that's understandable.  The Lenninites, the Stalinites and the other communists "old boy group" did an excellent job in erasing the truth so many times that their "red herrings" and their lies which have been repeated so often appear, now, to be the truth.


No, I fully believe that the Soviets were buried in lies up to their eyeballs, and the disinformation campaign about the mysterious "train to Perm," carrying the empress and her daughters, is proof of that.

Quote
McNeal's book pulled out many facts which I've found interesting.
Facts which other authors / reporters haven't thought necessary to reveal.  But, in the case of the execution, buriel and the two missing bodies, ALL  facts are needed.  And, I for one, appreciated McNeal's book for this reason.

AGRBear


This is why I wish someone here would summarize the main points of McNeal's book for those of us who haven't been able to read it.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 18, 2005, 02:50:40 PM
Quote
I am wondering if there is a scientific explanation for this that someone like Helen Azar could address (decomposition due to acidic conditions, for example).  


I think this may be more of Margarita's forte as she is our resident pathologist  ;) Any ideas, Belochka?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on March 19, 2005, 07:57:05 AM
Quote
I think this may be more of Margarita's forte as she is our resident pathologist  ;) Any ideas, Belochka?


Thanks for your recommendation Helen!

Sulfuric acid is an extremely corrosive substance.

In my pathology laboratory facility, diluted to a 10% concentration, sulfuric acid was used to soften forensic bones samples to enable ease of cutting sections embedded in paraffin for histologic examination. The bone integrity remains. This process takes several days to complete in a closed glass container.

Sulfuric acid decalcifies bone, by leaching out the calcium. When soft tissue is attached, maceration will occur, resulting in its dissolution, due to a process called hydrolysis (splitting up the molecules). Both proteins and fats are broken down in this fashion.

Approximately 15 gallons of industrial strength sulfuric acid was purchased at the local pharmacy in Ekaterinburg (King in FOTR @ p 325) and the naked bodies were doused with the acid (King @ p 330).

In the field, the sulfuric acid would have burned the skin and underlying tissue. However its penetration would depend on:

1. the quantity applied,

2. the concentration used,

3. length of time in contact with the victim.

We can assume that they did not bother diluting the acid prior to its use. Therefore it should have been more than effective to cause severe burning of the naked skin and underlying soft tissues reaching down to the bone framework.

Initially, Yurovsky described that on first application of the acid, the faces (except two bodies previously burnt by gasoline) were "doused" with acid.

Then, all the remaining bodies were thrown into the pit, and a second unknown quantity of sulfuric acid was this time poured into the pit.  

The efficacy of the second application of the acid would have been minimized somewhat for a number of reasons:

1. The muddy pit contained an unknown quantity of water, which would have diluted the effect of the acid,

2. The bodies were thrown in "haphazardly" into that pit, therefore not all the bodies would be affected by the acid to the same extent, nor extend "top to toe" over the entire body surface, front and back,

3. The overlayered earth used to conceal the bodies would have helped minimize the "burning" effect of the acid spilled over the uppermost body (or bodies).

From these brief hypotheses it can be demonstrated that not all the bones would have been affected equally by the sulfuric acid. Many bones would have remained intact.





Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 19, 2005, 08:16:36 AM
Thanks, Belochka.

So going back to Elisabeth's original question, does this mean  that some of the bones in the grave could have completely disintergrated due to greater exposure to sulfuric acid, which would then explain why bones seemed to be missing? While other bones would have remained intact because of lesser exposure to sulfuric acid? I just want to make sure that I am understanding this correctly.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Elisabeth on March 20, 2005, 01:00:12 PM
Quote
does this mean  that some of the bones in the grave could have completely disintergrated due to greater exposure to sulfuric acid, which would then explain why bones seemed to be missing? While other bones would have remained intact because of lesser exposure to sulfuric acid?


It does sound as if this is what Margarita is saying. That clears up the mystery to my satisfaction!

Many, many thanks to you both, Helen and Margarita, for sharing with us such fascinating information - not only here but in your excellent piece about the Dr. Knight/DNA controversy over in the "Anastasia"/DNA Papers thread.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 20, 2005, 01:35:58 PM
As a point of information, one of the main reasons that bones "go missing" is often because bodies are moved or (as in neolithic burial practices) the bodies are exposed and then the bones collected & buried later.  This means that smaller bones such as fingers & toes tend to drop off at the original site & get overlooked in the move.  I know all about this as my wife is doing a course on prehistoric ritual practices & I hear about it regularly.

On the general subject of Shay's book (& I have to point out that I receive a mention in the credits) I wish she'd give up on her obsession with "Rescuing the Czar" (the only book to make me laugh out loud in the Reading Room of the British Library) but work on some of the other threads.  Certainly there does appear to have been a British rescue plan in 1917/early 1918 involving the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk, built by the Hudson Bay Company and paid for by British Naval Intelligence and Secret Intelligence Service (MI6).

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 20, 2005, 03:16:01 PM
You may want to take this part [the bones] of the conversation over to the Questions about the graves in Pig's Meadow since this is not part of McNeal's book.

There I have a list, which I know,  which was found in the grave .  It's under Final Chapater.

The page mentioned about the missing bones is page 408 in Wilson and King's Fate of the Romanovs.

The last known count of bones or framents of bones is 800.

One human skelenton is composed of 206 bones, of so Wilson and King mention in their book.

There were nine skeletons so there should have been 1,836 bones.

And, yes, many of the missing bones appear to be missing and not the results of the acid spread over them.

Elisabeth, I don't have time today, but I will try to answer your questions about McNeal's book sometime this week.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: griffin on March 22, 2005, 11:32:15 AM
Quote
On the general subject of Shay's book (& I have to point out that I receive a mention in the credits) I wish she'd give up on her obsession with "Rescuing the Czar" (the only book to make me laugh out loud in the Reading Room of the British Library) but work on some of the other threads.


I agree she raised a lot of interesting points,but I felt lost credibility everytime she went back to this.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 22, 2005, 08:28:00 PM
Hello,

Yes, I think she wrote a really interesting book.  I was less concerned about the Rescuing the Czar part.  I pulled that book off the internet and I compared it to other books of its period.  Guess what? Most are laughable.  Big print and outsized notions.  

The full page review in the Times of London spends about two thirds of the page talking about her analysis of the book Rescuing the Czar.  I checked with some of my friends and the chap, John Crossland, who wrote the article is an intelligence expert.  You can check that out.  He has often reviewed for the Times and rumour has it he was former MI5 or MI6. He was complimentary of her work relating to the book.  Doesn't anyone think he might know more than we do?  

Donald
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 22, 2005, 09:49:09 PM
Quote
Hi donaldrynolds,

Why do you think it is, with the Russian archives now open to the West for scrutiny, that there has not been one single document presented for public scrutiny, that clearly states that any member of the I.F. had actually survived the massacre?

_____________________________________________

Today at 12:56pm, donaldreynolds wrote:

"My question - sent to her today and now to you.  Why do so many people here on this forum seem to accept the Soviet point of view without truly submitting it to a critical analysis?"

_____________________________________________

Perhaps you could clarify your view? I respectfully invite you to present your contentions here so that we can all analyze what it is that you refute.

Thank you.
  

Well, here goes.  I'm sure you realize that the archives are not "open." I know from academics here that the archives are not really open as we would think "open" to mean.  

The reason - in the early ninities the western intelligence services went in and copied extensively.  When it was discovered that so many of the files had been copied the archives tighten right up.  Furthermore, the Presidential archives have not been opened to westerners.  And the sensitive archives of the Central Committee, much like the Presidential ones, is rumoured to remain completely out of touch.  If people tell you they have copies of documents from these areas ask them to prove it.

Please let me know what you have that contradicts the above situation that I described.  Just check with academics who have worked in Russia for the last ten years and you will see I am under the correct impression about lack of open access.

In fact your use of the word scrutiny only applies to what some in Russia want westerners to scrutinize.  I really urge you to talk to authorities or some one like the head of the archives at the Hoover Institute in California.  I'm sure they will enlighten you and confirm the status of the lack of openness of the archives.

Donald
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 23, 2005, 09:20:47 AM
Donald,  I think part of the problem is that most posters know a lot about the Romanovs but very very little about the intelligence services which were working from all sides during that time period.

When I talk about "rescues" or mention names, most posters don't even know what I'm trying to tell them.  And, I think that is the case with McNeal.

I, also, agree that she placed too much weight on the book Rescue of the Czar and just should have said that after reading it, she used it only as a stepping stone to  her search into the truth which had not yet been reported.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Elisabeth on March 23, 2005, 10:33:44 AM
This is all very interesting, but I still don't have a clear idea of what makes this book original or worth reading. What plot or plots does McNeal discuss? Does she talk about the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk that Phil Tomaselli informs us was built by British intelligence? Does she have new and credible information about a British (or German or whatever) plot to rescue the tsar? In other words, aside from the discredited Rescuing the Tsar, what (or who) precisely were her sources?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 23, 2005, 04:53:16 PM
I am quite sure she is not the least bit interested in any future volume on the subject. Once was enough !
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 23, 2005, 07:28:24 PM
Quote
I am quite sure she is not the least bit interested in any future volume on the subject. Once was enough !


Hello,

Yes, the impression I got from her was that she has moved on.  I did get the impression that she is more interested in the opinion of people like Dr. Pipes of Harvard.  She writes me regarding "people with a genuine interest in history" and hopes that they are acquainted with the new information.

Just curious. Were you being disparaging?  If so why is there more than enough sarcasm on this chat room?  Please tell me what purpose it serves?

Thanks,

Donald

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 23, 2005, 07:40:26 PM
Hello,

It is too bad about this Rescuing thing.  I addressed that last night on my response to the DNA post that I first posted.  I did not get the impression that she was obsessed by the book. Actually I think she is intrigued as to its intelligence role in obfuscating the disappearance of the Romanovs. When I reviewed the past posts it seems like one person here started a diatribe and the piling on that some people talk about occurred. (?)

Donald

Quote
Donald,  I think part of the problem is that most posters know a lot about the Romanovs but very very little about the intelligence services which were working from all sides during that time period.

When I talk about "rescues" or mention names, most posters don't even know what I'm trying to tell them.  And, I think that is the case with McNeal.

I, also, agree that she placed too much weight on the book Rescue of the Czar and just should have said that after reading it, she used it only as a stepping stone to  her search into the truth which had not yet been reported.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 23, 2005, 07:53:06 PM
Hello,

What citations do you have - from primary sources - to support what you just wrote?  I think you are the one who started the attacks and colored so many opinion before they read a word of McNeal's book.  At least that is what I see when I review past postings on this subject. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but do cite what you want us to take for fact.

In fact, could you just act responsibily and cite and support what you assert for all to see?  Heresay does not stand for citations.  If you will support your comments then we can have a reasoned discussion. You just seem like someone with an ax to grind. ?

Donald


Quote
The mysterious house near Murmansk was built for a  naval officer whose ship was part of the British fleet involved in the northern contingent of  countries who came to the aid of the Whites.  Oddly, his family had seven members.  He wished to bring his family to this post anticipating a longer stay than was actually the case.  It was either never lived in or  was lived in only briefly.  So much for the Czar's House and, co-incidentally, so much for the claptrap about Rescuing the Czar.  A work of fiction as attested to by its two authors in their voluminous correspondence 1919-1921 which is selectively quoted by McNeal to bolster her case.  E

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 23, 2005, 08:09:58 PM
Hello,

Yes, she does - just like the Bear said.  And until I see something else as compelling I think that Phil Tomaselli and the Bear have the right assessment.  She talks about several plots that converge in chaos.  She gives different motives for countries like the US and England, as well as the Czechs and Japan to intervene. She cites all her sources and hardly any is thirdhand or hearsay.

Donald



Quote
This is all very interesting, but I still don't have a clear idea of what makes this book original or worth reading. What plot or plots does McNeal discuss? Does she talk about the "Tsar's House" at Murmansk that Phil Tomaselli informs us was built by British intelligence? Does she have new and credible information about a British (or German or whatever) plot to rescue the tsar? In other words, aside from the discredited Rescuing the Tsar, what (or who) precisely were her sources?

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 23, 2005, 08:40:54 PM
Me disparaging ? I do not think so. That is just the definite impression- in her words no less- that I got from her.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Elisabeth on March 23, 2005, 08:49:18 PM
Quote
Hello,
I think that Phil Tomaselli and the Bear have the right assessment.  She talks about several plots that converge in chaos.  She gives different motives for countries like the US and England, as well as the Czechs and Japan to intervene. She cites all her sources and hardly any is thirdhand or hearsay.


Thanks for the info. The book sounds very intriguing. I will have to read it, if only to make up my own mind.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 24, 2005, 05:30:32 AM
Hello,

I am pasting in a dialog from another thread as an FYI.  There is genuine bewilderment on my part as to the way "intelligent" adults condult themselves on this board.  Just within the last months have I begun to post on a few sites.  I was warned that chat rooms are like social circles in high school and make it hard on the new kids.  But really isn't that silly?  This is a serious chapter of history.  I agree with Bear you are losing contributors.  

Posts: 9
 Re: DNA RESOURCEs: Romanov-related scientific pape
« Reply #228 on: Today at 5:14am »  Quote  Modify  Remove  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
on Today at 12:44am, LisaDavidson wrote:

Donald, I don't get your continuing to bring up the McNeal book on this thread when you have been asked and instructed not to do so.  We all think it is fine to discuss the book, just not in this topic area. I don't see anything at all ambiguous about these requests, and you seem to be intelligent. So, I have to conclude that you are deliberately disregarding the instructions of the Forum Administrator and the requests of the other posters.  

This is not "upsetting the apple cart". This is outright belligerence. Please consider this to be a final warning regarding this thread.


My response:

Terribly sorry about the last portion of my post but the first portion is absolutely germaine.  You too sound intelligent - certainly intelligent enough not to speak to another adult in a God-like fashion.

I feel you are dangerously close to censorship on this site.  I was apologying and moving on but now I too will depart as I have seen other "intelligent" posters do.  

Perhaps you all (who is the "we" for whom you speak) should call yourselves a faternity or sorority not a public discussion forum.  I do not use profanity or rudeness and have addressed all thusly.  

By the way, I already have parents.  But they have never chastised me in such a way.  Even when I commented on their comments they have never attempted to inflect humiliation by labeling me belligerent.  They are too "intelligent" to attempt to manipulate me.

No need to lock a thread or threaten me.  (That also occurs to me to be odd behavior since the subject here is frequently Bolshevism/Communism and Autocracy.) As a result of these attitudes, you loose many competent posters.

Further, as my final thought, perhaps you or the "we" should  try a real scientific peer-review for some of these self-serving agenda written papers and posts.  I don't think you would be insulted just graded poorly.

Donald




Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 24, 2005, 02:32:04 PM
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 24, 2005, 07:20:38 PM
Hello Phil.

I found that bit very convincing in McNeal's book.  She put that together with what she found at the Huson Bay Company and it holds up nicely.  

Maybe Elizaveta's source was working for the Hudson Bay and was the cover for the operation.  But I don't think so.  In her book McNeal said that she consulted an expert on the Hudson Bay, who did her PHD on Hudson Bay.  That expert told her that during that period the provisions on the list for the house were not items any officer or Hudson Bay man would have.

I too am waiting for Elizaveta's source.  

Donald




Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on March 24, 2005, 08:20:03 PM
Phil,

As to your comments I located the Times of London Review:#11
Sunday Times (UK)
3 June 2001
Book Review
Bones of contention
By John Crossland


THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR:
The Truth behind the Disappearance of the Romanovs
by Shay McNeal


On a humid July night in 1918, the former imperial family of Russia, together with their servants, were ushered into a basement room of a mansion in Siberia. The door burst open to reveal 11 assassins, one for each victim.
Their commander, Yacov Yurovsky, read out the death sentence and a stunned tsar had time only to plead, "Why, oh why?" before a shell from Yurovsky's
Colt spun him off his feet, split seconds before the assassins' fusillade turned his family into bloody, broken marionettes.

Such has been the generally accepted version of the end of the Romanovs, popularised by the film Nicholas and Alexandra, and enshrined in the Russian official inquiry into the putative Imperial remains found in a
Siberian forest in 1979, secretly reburied and unearthed again in 1991.

Doubts, however, have always remained about the massacre. When the Bolsheviks first proclaimed, within days of the alleged shootings, that they had executed Nicholas II, the announcement was greeted by a wave of scepticism - not least because the tsar's wife and children were specifically excluded from the death notices. Investigations in the 1970s by two BBC
journalists, Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold, asked further questions, in particular of the Sokolov Report, the White Russians' forensic exercise in 1919 which has
formed the basis for the massacre theory. Their powerful case, argued In The File on the Tsar (1976), found much of the evidence implausible.
But Summers and Mangold received a setback with the publication of the Yeltsin Commission's findings in 1991 and with the unmasking of Anna Anderson, the Anastasia claimant, as a fake.

Now Shay McNeal provides a further twist to this inscrutable tale. An American former political consultant turned archival researcher, McNeal was not satisfied with the 1991 commission's verdict, and believed that
Yeltsin had merely wished to close a sordid chapter in Russian history, ensuring the DNA and forensic evidence fitted a politically correct solution. Reopening
the Summers and Mangold line of inquiry, McNeal has drawn on newly declassified files in American and Russian archives in an attempt to prove the existence of a plot (or plots) to rescue the imperial family.


To do that, she needed to discredit the critical scientific tests that were the cornerstone of the 1991 Commission's argument for closing the case on the
Romanovs. McNeal cites an American expert who claims that the clinching evidence, the mtDNA match of the Duke of Edinburgh with the tsarina Alexandra and her children, could not be accepted as proof of identity. It is a claim, incidentally, that Home Office forensic scientists vigorously deny, although they do concede that DNA is never taken as conclusive evidence by itself, but
in conjunction with other tests on the bones, preferably soon after exhumation. These, McNeal asserts, were not done and a question persists about the Russians' handling of the material.

So, a reasonable doubt remains over whether there was a massacre. What case does McNeal make, then, for the family's survival? Her trawl of American Secret Service documents has revealed a string of incidents and relationships between shadowy individuals, apparently innocuous in themselves but which
taken together point to an international plot to save the tsar and dish Bolshevism.

Her important new lead on the Romanov mystery has come from the Hudson Bay Company records, which show a strange obsession among Allied intelligence
operatives with building a luxurious house in Murmansk for seven (the family's number). In June 1918 a company trouble-shooter also working for MI6, and Jonas Lied, a Norwegian Arctic shipping merchant, set up a rescue bid on orders from "C" (Britain's Secret Service head), aimed at spiriting the family up the Siberian river system, then to Murmansk and finally
to England in a motor torpedo boat. That rescue attempt apparently misfired because the "snatch" by their Russian confederates was anticipated by
the local Soviet.

Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the
street, and thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon) McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered
that there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".

But does her fascinating search, which includes mysterious Tibetan lamas, disappearing Yangtze gunboats and secret missions by George V's cousin
to Japan, lead us to the tsar? Unfortunately the trail peters out in Ceylon. For all her hard work (including proving that the "execution" Colt revolver was,
according to its serial number, at a Kentucky army barracks at the time), McNeal gets no closer to a definitive answer than anyone else. Perhaps Yacov
Yurovsky was right when he claimed that "the world will never know what we did with them!"

The greatest mystery of the 20th century remains unsolved.

Quote
I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on March 25, 2005, 01:04:30 PM
Gee, it's great to to posting with others who have seen McNeal's book as a source, just as I have.  

I had not read the review and thanks for posting it, donaldreynolds.

Since Reilly was mentioned by McNeal, there is another book, which I've mentioned, is TRUST NO ONE, THE SECRET WORLD OF SIDNEY REILLY by Richard B. Spence.  The reason I mention his book here in McNeal's thread is because the first time I read her book, I didn't have Spence's book.  So, I've sat down, now, and started to reread McNeal's book and then I jump over to  Spence's book and certain pieces of the puzzle are coming togather.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on March 25, 2005, 07:44:41 PM
When did Mr. Spence publish his work?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on March 28, 2005, 09:37:17 AM
"Trust No One - The Secret World of Sidney Reilly" was published by Feral House in October 2002, ISBN 0-922915-79-2.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: hikaru on April 01, 2005, 06:44:38 AM
I read this thread and was very surprised when I found ystdy  the English edition of this book in our book store "Moscow" , so I bought it.
Began to read it just from now
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on April 11, 2005, 09:00:02 PM
I think I will just read the book for myself :)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 11, 2005, 10:05:28 PM
I hate to say it, but I think you are wasting your time.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on April 11, 2005, 10:26:20 PM
I find it rather sad that so much attention is being placed on this work of fiction. :-/
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 12, 2005, 09:28:26 PM
Why don't you define exactly what you find fictional?  Try page by page and citation by citation - a real deconstruction instead of trite comments with no back up. The same for the next poster who said Bravo. Maybe the two of you can do a real deconstruction.  Waiting for your lengthy academic deconstruction, otherwise this just has all the marks of cattiness.

Donald


Quote
I find it rather sad that so much attention is being placed on this work of fiction. :-/

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 12, 2005, 10:11:34 PM
I just don't think it's worth buying - most of it seems to be rehashing of the same old escape theories. Rather than buying, why not check it out of the Library (if the library doesn't have it use Interloan), give ti a read, and then see if you want your own copy. I did, and I didn't think I needed to get my own copy after reading it.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2005, 11:56:52 AM
If you are only hoping to read about the IF then this book is not for you.  

There isn't anything about Romanov pets or what color eyes they had.  This book is about discovering evidence that may not interest you, however, for those of us interested in things like the link between Remington Co., and American gun company, and a British spy named Reilly and the Whites fighting the Bolsheviks, then this is what you'll find.

Of course, a great deal is about the possible escape of the IF so there are various doctuments and reports which tell us about an airplane flying over the Impatiev House which caused the CHEKA to be uneasy.    McNeal also talks about various men, including the ones who wrote the "fictional" Resuce of the Czar",  who may or may not have the people who may have taken been part of various plots set up to rescue Nicholas II and the others.  

She goes into some things like the bullet holes in the basement of the Impatiev House.

There are readers for all kinds of books.  You'll have to make up your own mind about this book and how it does or does not fit your needs.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 14, 2005, 05:41:59 PM
Quote
There are readers for all kinds of books.  You'll have to make up your own mind about this book and how it does or does not fit your needs.
 

That's right, and that's why I think it may be best to check it out at the library first. As for escape theory books, I think that File on the Tsar was better written, and better researched. Even so, the fact remains that all the family were martyred that night. There has been no reliable sighting of them since July 1918, and claiments who have had DNA testing done have been found to be false, and claiments that don't want to have DNA testing done - well, I think that speaks for itself. really.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 14, 2005, 09:49:34 PM
Quote
Impatiev House


Bear, I noticed that you keep calling it that, it's "Ipatiev's House" - no "m"- just like the monastery.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 14, 2005, 11:11:32 PM
Where is your detailed deconstruction?  

Donald
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on April 15, 2005, 06:04:24 AM
Any book which tenders possible escapist hypotheses in relation to the Imperial Family is completely abhorrent, and demonstrates a complete lack of respect towards the Russian people, the Russian Orthodox Church and to any existing relatives of the I.F. today.

It is time to take a grip on reality and understand that no member of the I.F. nor their retainers ever had any opportunity to escape from the murderous fate which they were so brutally exposed to.

While Ms Shay has made her money on this fictitious piece ... its time to move on to read what scholary authors have written on this sorrowful event.

To expect a deconstruction of this fictitious book will only obstruct my time which is better spent on more valuable pursuits.



Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 15, 2005, 06:20:58 PM
I don't believe that there was any disrespect toward the Imperial Family expressed in McNeal's book. I might remind you that it has never been stated by McNeal that they died.  Only an honest accessment that there is more to know.  In fact it was very thoughtful.  

Your hesitancy or unwillingness to deconstruct can only be explained by the fact that your approach to the DNA "study" is equally vague and not accepted anywhere but in a small cirle of adherents to a small, newsletter group.  Put it out to the scientific journals - even as you would have anyone believe - as unworthy as anything other than Nature Genetics.

To call the book fiction is a reflection on your ability to discern novels ( The Kitchen Boy) from non-fiction. And I dare say you would seem to be able to discern the difference. So, why not say you don't like it but the brush you paint with borders on the absurd.  The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar is in most universitiy libraries and rightfully so.  Lock step it is not. Truly, what is it that makes you and your buddy E. so personal?  You just seem to be catty.  I have asked for you to defend your assertions.  Why not?  

There is without a doubt a clique here inside the walls of these chat rooms that is palapable.  I am still stunned that posters the like of Phil Tomaselli - who by the way, has an exceptionally fine reputation at the PRO for being one of the most informed researchers and writers of the WWI period - leave.  If this clique thinks he is full of fiction too then it is you who is not well informed.  Read his work, published in well respected journals.  

May I ask, where has your work been published aside from the newsletters?  I hope it has.  I would be pleased to read it.  And so as not to fall for the silliness that gets hurled around here - I don't think you have to be published to know your material.  But, really unless you are published by a major imprint or academic instruction why not put some water in your wine or do the hard work of a page by page deconstruction and not plead a reason that seems well below your abilities?

Just my thoughts on the comments you post.  I think I too will join Tomaselli, like some others I have seen flee.
Thought about it before still thinking about it.  Soon it will only be the 'ole Bear. Hurrah for her. Even she seems to get beaten down though.  But, the next day, when I check and the sun is shining by Goodness she is back.

Donald
Quote
Any book which tenders possible escapist hypotheses in relation to the Imperial Family is completely abhorrent, and demonstrates a complete lack of respect towards the Russian people, the Russian Orthodox Church and to any existing relatives of the I.F. today.

It is time to take a grip on reality and understand that no member of the I.F. nor their retainers ever had any opportunity to escape from the murderous fate which they were so brutally exposed to.

While Ms Shay has made her money on this fictitious piece ... its time to move on to read what scholary authors have written on this sorrowful event.

To expect a deconstruction of this fictitious book will only obstruct my time which is better spent on more valuable pursuits.




Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 15, 2005, 06:24:24 PM
Ipatiev, Ipatiev, Ipatiev, Ipatiev, Ipatiev, Ipatiev....

Can't seem to keep the right spelling in this cotton stuff head of mine.  :-/ So sorry.

Thanks for correction. :)

And, yes, Donald,  I keep on returning. ;D

I do hope we don't lose you, too.  :-[

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 15, 2005, 08:36:54 PM
Quote
Why don't you define exactly what you find fictional?  Try page by page and citation by citation - a real deconstruction instead of trite comments with no back up. The same for the next poster who said Bravo. Maybe the two of you can do a real deconstruction.  Waiting for your lengthy academic deconstruction, otherwise this just has all the marks of cattiness.

Donald
/quote]
Donald
   You might not realize that some of your posts really can be read as remarkably rude...Please as I have made the same sort of mistake myself may I suggest that you reconsider some of your comments?  

  Many people here consider this a work of fiction  -why do you consider it fact? Please explain the factual evidence for us. It might help to facilitate this discussion...OK?

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 15, 2005, 09:24:30 PM
Rskkyia, Donald thinks he has a personal interest in the "survivor" theory.  He's been seen here before, different "incarnation," but same old polemics.

It is rather amusing to sit back and see how much more rope he will take before the inevitable occurs.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on April 16, 2005, 03:15:18 AM
Quote
  I think I too will join Tomaselli, like some others I have seen flee.
Thought about it before still thinking about it.  Donald


You are free to participate on this board, you are also free to "flee" as you have so eloquently phrased.

However one can only wonder why it is that you are so unusually protective about this book? Could it be that you are the author or in some way associated with Ms Mc Neal?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on April 16, 2005, 04:52:15 AM
Quote
 The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar is in most universitiy libraries and rightfully so.


Many Departments stock their shelves with numerous publications which may be of interest to the University community. Purchase by the University does not imply that any particular book is endorsed in any way by the Librarian who purchased it. What it does however indicate, is that that the Library prefers to provide their community a broad range of published opinions on the same subject.

Your apparent praise of Universities who may choose to stock this book on their shelves can only lead me to ask why are you demonstrating such unusual interest in all this?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: griffin on April 16, 2005, 04:58:36 AM
Why is it that everyone who comes here saying they don't believe everyone was killed in the Ipatiev House is acussed of being:
                    1)Shay McNeal
                    2)an associate of Shay McNeal
                    3)Rodger under a new user name
                    4)a claimant who has a stake in proving    someone survived
 
                And these people don't deserve to be treated like idiots, I have heard a really stupid theory or two about what happened to the missing remains and I just ask why they believe that and then I move on.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Belochka on April 16, 2005, 05:03:47 AM
Quote
I might remind you that it has never been stated by McNeal that they died.  Donald


.... and this is where your "fact" has surpassed all sense and credibility.  :-/



Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 16, 2005, 07:02:33 AM
Quote

Many Departments stock their shelves with numerous publications which may be of interest to the University community. Purchase by the University does not imply that any particular book is endorsed in any way by the Librarian who purchased it. What it does however indicate, is that that the Library prefers to provide their community a broad range of published opinions on the same subject.

Your apparent praise of Universities who may choose to stock this book on their shelves can only lead me to ask why are you demonstrating such unusual interest in all this?


Well-stated! University libraries also have copies of Mein Kampf and other books in a similar vein. They all are there for a reason, but not necessarily because they are filled with absolute truths or because they are held in high esteem.
This book you're so crazy about is in some uni libraries. So what.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 16, 2005, 07:07:18 AM
Quote
Why is it that everyone who comes here saying they don't believe everyone was killed in the Ipatiev House is acussed of being:
                     1)Shay McNeal
                     2)an associate of Shay McNeal
                     3)Rodger under a new user name
                     4)a claimant who has a stake in proving    someone survived
  
                 And these people don't deserve to be treated like idiots, I have heard a really stupid theory or two about what happened to the missing remains and I just ask why they believe that and then I move on.


It's not the ones with the stupid theories, Griffin, it's the few that pop up as a new poster and immediately go for this or similar threads, harp on the same thing endlessly, demand others provide cites from primary sources for every word they type (while backing up nothing themselves), and exhibit the same writing style (and it's funny to see some of these strive to hide their style) right down to the use of favorite words, phrases, and even the SAME misspellings, incarnation after incarnation.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 16, 2005, 07:56:49 AM
Quote
...your approach to the DNA "study" is equally vague and not accepted anywhere but in a small cirle of adherents to a small, newsletter group.  Put it out to the scientific journals - even as you would have anyone believe - as unworthy as anything other than Nature Genetics.


Excuse me,  donaldreynolds, I wasn't going to get involved in this silly discussion, but enough is enough. There is absolutely no reason to get rude or insulting just because someone has expressed a different viewpoint than yourself and has effectively argued this viewpoint. I understand that this makes you angry and frustrated because it negates many things you believe in. However, this is no reason to lash out via random attacks.

You are very well aware, I am sure, that when an argument is presented against a certain position, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with where (or whether) it has been published, it has to do with the argument itself and whether this argument can be backed up effectively by legitimate work of others and by logic. If this argument fails to do that, then it makes no difference that it has been published (as we have witnessed with many published works, like Alec Knight's for example).

On the other hand, if someone writes a valid and effective argument on a wall of a public men's room, it wouldn't change the fact that it is valid and effective or that it can withstand scrutiny by others.

If you have equally solid counter-arguments to our points, then you are free to present them in an appropriate way and appropriate place, as we had mentioned to you several times earlier - when we invited you to present your counter-arguments, which we would welcome if you are ever able to come up with any.

You haven't done that to date, and I seriously doubt that you will. Instead, you continue to find ways to fling insults every chance you get, now on different threads that have nothing to do with where we originally presented our arguments. This does not show you in a very positive light, donaldreynolds*.

If you really wish (and are able) to argue what we presented on the DNA thread, then stop hiding behind other topics and beating around the bush, come out and counter-argue our points directly. I haven't seen you do that, you only continue repeating things like "it  was vague" and "not accepted anywhere" or using other such phrases that are completely meaningless.  What does that mean exactly and how does it invalidate what we said?

Please defend your statements with something substantial, by arguing specific points or please refrain from throwing accusations that you are not even able to support with examples or counter-arguments. Thank you.

*After reading your statements, I am not so sure who is being "catty" here.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 12:33:34 PM
Quote
..[in part]...
Why is it that everyone who comes here saying they don't believe everyone was killed in the Ipatiev House is acussed of being:
                     1)Shay McNeal
                     2)an associate of Shay McNeal
                     3)Rodger under a new user name
                     4)a claimant who has a stake in proving    someone survived
  
.....


I have been accussed of being #1 through #4.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Oh, dear Darth Olga*,  I can't help showing my emotions, again, this morning.  But all of this is just too too funny.

I do hope Donald doesn't have to prove he's not this old Bear.

[giggle]

AGRBear

*NOTE:  Ref. to a remark she made to me on another thread.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 16, 2005, 12:48:32 PM
Quote

I do hope Donald doesn't have to prove he's not this old Bear.



It doesn't matter if donaldreynolds is the Bear, or if donaldreynolds is Rodger, or if donaldreynolds is Shay McNeal, or if donaldreynolds is Saddam Hussein. Fact is, he is being confrontational and insulting for no apparent reason, under the guise of having a discussion, and he should stop.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 02:00:24 PM
The bees have swarmed around my head all morning long but I did manage to eat some berries which were drowning in honey. Burp.  Please, excuse.  Ahh, what a meal.  Full tummy....

Yawn.

So, I pop in to this thread.

YUK.

All kinds of stuff is being thrown around here.  Turned my berries, I can tell you.

EVERYONE, Stop these insults.  Go to PM [personal messages] and settle your differences.

Topic, PLEASE.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 16, 2005, 02:59:10 PM
Quote
The bees have swarmed around my head all morning long but I did manage to eat some berries which were drowning in honey. Burp.  Please, excuse.  Ahh, what a meal.  Full tummy....

Yawn.

So, I pop in to this thread.

YUK.

All kinds of stuff is being thrown around here.  Turned my berries, I can tell you.

EVERYONE, Stop these insults.  Go to PM [personal messages] and settle your differences.

Topic, PLEASE.

AGRBear


Good advice, and I hope that "DonaldReynolds" (Hah) takes it.  He won't though. He is incapable of this. As for you, "Bear," why do you waste so much bandwidth with childish chatter that frankly makes you come across as "hokey", though apparently you think it is somehow cute and amusing. Maybe, though I doubt it very much, some here share your opinion, but come on -- use of childish imagery does not add to this discussion one iota any more than the ones flinging insults.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 16, 2005, 03:02:29 PM
Jon Crossland wrote in his book review:

>>Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"  
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the  
street, and thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon) McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered  
that there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".  <<

Although I  think "RESCUING THE CZAR" was a  novelty,  I think the author knew someone who "was on the ground at the time".   I. also,  think the author's  knowledge was from information given to him prior to the 16/17th of July.  Because, the author wasn't aware of Alexie's bout with his leg which he still wasn't able to straighten at that time.  But, that doesn't mean the author's knowledge about the various plot to rescue Nicholas II  wasn't in the works.  And, I think this is where McNeal's book about the Rescuing of the Czar proves interesting to me.  She has tracked down some of this information which "mirrored"  certain people and events  that were happening at that time.

McNeals books wasn't just about Recuing the Czar.  For example: >>Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. <<

Reilly was running around  USA and Moscow AND he was making all kinds of deals.

Another interesting side note added to McNeals comments about Reilly was the fact that Reilly was bribing "Letts" by offering them money and a free trip home.  Why is this important?  It was the "Letts" who were guarding Lenin, who hadn't to this point trusted his own Russians,  and there were Letts who were guarding the IF in Ekaterinburg.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 17, 2005, 09:08:07 PM
And what is your game?  Your postings appear to be laced with warnings, threats - are you past of the old Cheka/GPU/NKVD/ KGB and so on? Let people state their opinions.  What do you forfeit in the process?
Donald

Quote

Good advice, and I hope that "DonaldReynolds" (Hah) takes it.  He won't though. He is incapable of this. As for you, "Bear," why do you waste so much bandwidth with childish chatter that frankly makes you come across as "hokey", though apparently you think it is somehow cute and amusing. Maybe, though I doubt it very much, some here share your opinion, but come on -- use of childish imagery does not add to this discussion one iota any more than the ones flinging insults.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 18, 2005, 01:43:38 PM

I am confused - I saw a remark about Dashkova that said "a friend and fellow student."  Is Dashkova a student?

Donald

Quote
And what is your game?  Your postings appear to be laced with warnings, threats - are you past of the old Cheka/GPU/NKVD/ KGB and so on? Let people state their opinions.  What do you forfeit in the process?
Donald


Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Abby on April 18, 2005, 07:05:28 PM
Yes, she is.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 18, 2005, 10:33:58 PM
Quote
Jon Crossland wrote in his book review:

>>Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"  
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the  
street, and thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon) McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered  
that there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".  <<

Although I  think "RESCUING THE CZAR" was a  novelty,  I think the author knew someone who "was on the ground at the time".   I. also,  think the author's  knowledge was from information given to him prior to the 16/17th of July.  Because, the author wasn't aware of Alexie's bout with his leg which he still wasn't able to straighten at that time.  But, that doesn't mean the author's knowledge about the various plot to rescue Nicholas II  wasn't in the works.  And, I think this is where McNeal's book about the Rescuing of the Czar proves interesting to me.  She has tracked down some of this information which "mirrored"  certain people and events  that were happening at that time.

McNeals books wasn't just about Recuing the Czar.  For example: >>Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. <<

Reilly was running around  USA and Moscow AND he was making all kinds of deals.

Another interesting side note added to McNeals comments about Reilly was the fact that Reilly was bribing "Letts" by offering them money and a free trip home.  Why is this important?  It was the "Letts" who were guarding Lenin, who hadn't to this point trusted his own Russians,  and there were Letts who were guarding the IF in Ekaterinburg.  

AGRBear


Bear, the daughter in law of the publisher of "Rescuing The Tsar" is a friend of mine who also posts here. As she has made clear, "RTT" was written for money, in the hopes of getting a movie deal. My friend told Shay this, in fact many of us did so, but she chose to disregard the truth. Please don't repeat her mistake.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 07:20:03 AM
Bear,

Please clarify.  I thought that Rescuing the Tsar was simply printed by the printer in California.  Publisher - I don't think so.  McNeal's book says he was a printer.  Did he have other books "published?" Meaning a channel of distribution etc.  What I found out from McNeal was that she talked to the daughter-in-law who was helpful.  But, in the end,  they disagreed on the on the role of the printer.

I'm also wondering.  Think I'll ask McNeal to clarify, she said she only talked to Greg King (when he called her see my previous posting). I got the impression that she spoke numerous times to the daughter-in-law.  So who is Lisa referring to as "many of us?"  Also the truth she wrote about came from different angles. I think she talked with the McGarry family alot. By the way, intelligence agencies always use legetimate businesses (like a printer) to accompolish what they want.  Sometimes the legit business is also a front.  But these people take this to their graves.  Happens all the time.  Check out a recent copy of the Economist to gain an understanding.

Thanks,

Donald

Quote

Bear, the daughter in law of the publisher of "Rescuing The Tsar" is a friend of mine who also posts here. As she has made clear, "RTT" was written for money, in the hopes of getting a movie deal. My friend told Shay this, in fact many of us did so, but she chose to disregard the truth. Please don't repeat her mistake.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 07:29:00 AM
Quote
And what is your game?  Your postings appear to be laced with warnings, threats - are you past of the old Cheka/GPU/NKVD/ KGB and so on? Let people state their opinions.  What do you forfeit in the process?
Donald



   What warnings? What threats?/i]  The deadly theat to be logical and rational?
You must realize just how paranoid you sound, "Donald" or has your breakfast muslie told you that the KGB is comming... ;D (knock knock)
   Honestly, if you wish to prove your point then PLEASE give us some evidence and please stop making unkind and off topic remarks - I actually would like to hear more of your 'evidence' - if you have any!

Rskkiya
head of the new kgb
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 07:51:31 AM
"Rskkiya" what is your name? 'Evidence' with single quotes you must be from the British Commonwealth. Just check Vera-Finger's  post.  

Why is it you can support people and when I support the Bear you don't like it? You exercised your right when you supported your firend "Dashkova and Vera-Finger" and signed off as a "Red."

In fact, all the italics and uppercase type and silly little smily faces makes one think of the Rescuing the Tsar format.  I have acted as a Devil's advocate without emphasis of type etc.  I feel I have that right.  I have never been rude or used profane language.  I am on point to question.  I have never marched in unison and  lock-step on any occassion.

Still thinking of leaving this environment except I think that the information -outside of this chat room- serves a valuable purpose.  The hours of translation etc. put in by Rob and Bob will serve future kinder minded generations. From what I can see Bear needs more "dogs in this fight."  If they are not welcome then perhaps we should all go away.

Donald





Quote

    What warnings? What threats?/i]  The deadly theat to be logical and rational?
You must realize just how paranoid you sound, "Donald" or has your breakfast muslie told you that the KGB is comming... ;D (knock knock)
    Honestly, if you wish to prove your point then PLEASE give us some evidence and please stop making unkind and off topic remarks - I actually would like to hear more of your 'evidence' - if you have any!

Rskkiya
head of the new kgb

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 08:15:55 AM
Hello
   Actually Donald, if either you or agrbear would ever present something verifiable I would be very happy.

  Please let's not turn this into a "your team vs my team" game. I also agree with Helen Azar and Tsarfan on various topics - but that simply means that we have similar opinions. We are not "in collution" nor are we all the "same person."
I am not 'vera figner" -If you doubt me ask the FA.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 08:48:36 AM
Thank you for your response.  In fact, the Bear and I do not even communicate in PMs.  As I have only recently realized that the appropriate button to push is not the one I thought it was I don't do much of that.  I prefer to sort these things out publicly.

I did not realize that you thought I thought you were Vera-Finger. No, you have more cogent comments and you show humility.

It should not be cliques who prevail here - it should, in my opinion, be an open and probing forum. Some seem cemented in positions that appear to be old school.  Much evidence has been written about in recent monographs, books and Russian newspapers.  Why not consider all points of view?

I think it would be a great idea to take all the books from O'Connor, to Guy Richards, to Summers and Mangold, to Occleshaw, to McNeal and Massie, to Radzensky, and King and Wilson and compare and contrast point by point.  Then factor in memoirs of the Russian officals and allied representatives and well as journalist on the scene at the time and shortly thereafter.   In doing so all gossip should be eliminated and all analysis should only be on documents that exists as cited in these books.  

If all would set aside the territory they insist on protecting we could make real progress. Moreover, private papers, unless they can be substantiated should be considered carefully. Hearsay from relatives should initially be eliminated and all pretenders should - for the moment - be set aside.

I liked McNeal's compare and contrast of Yurovsky's various stories.  I think this point/counter point would be a great way to get at the truth.  O'Connor's (one of the first) book could be the spine of the discussion and all can add points from other books to support or contest the point.  The way it is now is too personal and too emotional and has little organization.  I don't have time to go find it on all the various threads.  I usually just search the names I know post and the various titles.  If it were on one long thread it would allow those of us with little time to participate in a more meaningful way.

Donald


Quote
Hello
    Actually Donald, if either you or agrbear would ever present something verifiable I would be very happy.

   Please let's not turn this into a "your team vs my team" game. I also agree with Helen Azar and Tsarfan on various topics - but that simply means that we have similar opinions. We are not "in collution" nor are we all the "same person."
I am not 'vera figner" -If you doubt me ask the FA.

rskkiya

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 08:54:07 AM
Donald,
   Please offer up some 'evidence' for your convictions, many posters here have been waiting for some time, and more than a few - no doubt - are getting a wee bit impatient.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Arleen on April 19, 2005, 09:56:37 AM
There are ever so many of us who do not feel qualified enough to post, but we read every word and absorb!  To those of you who keep threatening to LEAVE why don't you just do so, it would make it so much easier for the rest of us who seriously want to LEARN and be educated.
..Arleen
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 10:05:59 AM
I offered a frame work in which I am happy to do so. But you don't seem to want to entertain that. Why not?

Donald

Quote
Donald,
    Please offer up some 'evidence' for your convictions, many posters here have been waiting for some time, and more than a few - no doubt - are getting a wee bit impatient.

rskkiya

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 10:12:23 AM
Arleen,

The internet is not always the best place to learn. Time spent here is good - like reading Rob's and Bob's translations - but you can get all the books I posted through a library loan service and then you will feel qualified.  

As to taking anything posted here as a truth or even an  academically acceptable premise - be careful. People like me who have read all the books I mentioned just need to be here to play Devil's advocate so others know that it is not easy to post ad hominem arguments and be taken at face value.

Donald



Quote
There are ever so many of us who do not feel qualified enough to post, but we read every word and absorb!  To those of you who keep threatening to LEAVE why don't you just do so, it would make it so much easier for the rest of us who seriously want to LEARN and be educated.
..Arleen

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 10:19:10 AM
Quote
Donald,
    Please offer up some 'evidence' for your convictions.

rskkiya


PLEASE POST SOME INFORMATION THAT WE CAN ALL VERIFY AND DISCUSS.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 19, 2005, 10:41:53 AM
Quote
To those of you who keep threatening to LEAVE why don't you just do so, it would make it so much easier for the rest of us ...


My sentiments exactly. Why not just leave quietly instead of whining endlessly and keep threatening to leave. No one is going to force you to stay or to come back here, just as no one forced you to come here in the first place. All this whining about being "forced out" is not having much affect on most people after the first couple of times anyway, it's like the boy who cried wolf... So please, if you don't like what people have to say here and can't respond in an appropriate manner, then stop coming back for more!

Quote
I offered a frame work in which I am happy to do so.


Donaldreynolds, if you are here to "play the Devil's advocate" then why don't you address my previous post directed at you, instead of posting all kinds of round-about nonsense in order to try to confuse people into thinking that you actually know what you are talking about?

Please, address it right now because I want to see you put your money where mouth is. If you can't, then stop making disruptive posts and let others have their discussions in peace.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 10:57:47 AM
I think by a rationale jury of twelve who odn't belong to the clique -always the same o;e ones - I would not be seen as a cry baby.  On the contrary, just why not accept the frame work and go for a real impartial discussion.

I have the right to measure the responses before I determine that this is or is not a potential group with which I want to be associated.

Your discussions were contentious long before I arrived.  Again translate this comment to we don't want to be brothered by anyone who doesn't agree with the clique.

Got rid of others in the past.  Still trying to hang and ask for a reasonable frame work and I'll post away.

Donald


Quote

My sentiments exactly. Why not just leave quietly instead of whining endlessly and keep threatening to leave. No one is going to force you to stay or to come back here, just as no one forced you to come here in the first place. All this whining about being "forced out" is not having much affect on most people after the first couple of times anyway, it's like the boy who cried wolf... So please, if you don't like what people have to say here and can't respond in an appropriate manner, then stop coming back for more!


Donaldreynolds, if you are here to "play the Devil's advocate" then why don't you address my previous post directed at you, instead of posting all kinds of round-about nonsense in order to try to confuse people into thinking that you actually know what you are talking about?

Please, address it right now because I want to see you put your money where mouth is. If you can't, then stop making disruptive posts and let others have their discussions in peace.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 19, 2005, 11:24:12 AM
Quote
I think by a rationale jury of twelve who odn't belong to the clique -always the same o;e ones - I would not be seen as a cry baby.  On the contrary, just why not accept the frame work and go for a real impartial discussion. I have the right to measure the responses before I determine that this is or is not a potential group with which I want to be associated.  Your discussions were contentious long before I arrived.  Again translate this comment to we don't want to be brothered by anyone who doesn't agree with the clique. Got rid of others in the past.  Still trying to hang and ask for a reasonable frame work and I'll post away.


Donaldreynolds, thank you for proving the point of my last post. I rest my case.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 12:55:26 PM
Your response is remarkable but not altogether unexpected.  I remember having the same reaction that I just did to your post when I read Blinded By The Right.  Some are so set that all the pleading just falls on deaf ears.

Have it your way and I will not engage in anymore debate as to my right to question.  Even the Catholic Church has tolerated the women in the United States having their own conclave where they intoduced pink smoke to bring attention to their concerns.

Donald

Donald



Quote

Donaldreynolds, thank you for proving the point of my last post. I rest my case.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 01:12:18 PM
Here is just a thought.  A person wants to know what I think and has questioned me privately about my support for finding out about Rescuing the Tsar I state the following:

Why would Romanovsky, a Russian Czarist offical - fact - enter into something of the nature of producing Rescuing the Tsar unless ordered to do so? Money as a motivation cuts both ways.  Being paid to carry out orders? Then paid off through a scheme.

McGarry was also working in the war effort - fact.  He was also making arrangements of $300 million plus gold coming from his Japanese contacts - fact - cited in  {Czech gold - where else was that kind of money to hand?) McNeal's book from the McGarry family archives- fact.

I feel there is so much more to these men and what they may have been charged to do. Certainly more than a simple explanation of "money making."  There is a citation in McNeal's book that says something to the effect that "the company" ruined their deal. McGarry family archives - fact

Pay offs most of the time come in the form of a ruse - fact.  

Famous CIA front making baskets and company got so sussessful that they could not supply Pottery Barn and Pier One etc. that too is a fact.

As to what they wrote and the names they pointed out as being public I have not seen one account with names of players etc. that was made public before the fall of 1920.  I've read alot and checked my books O'Connor etc. if anyone has any viable published account please post.  I have never come across a public report  dating before June 1920 in Rescuing the Tsar that names people like Khokhriakov or Koganitsky. It did. - fact

Donald


Quote

My sentiments exactly. Why not just leave quietly instead of whining endlessly and keep threatening to leave. No one is going to force you to stay or to come back here, just as no one forced you to come here in the first place. All this whining about being "forced out" is not having much affect on most people after the first couple of times anyway, it's like the boy who cried wolf... So please, if you don't like what people have to say here and can't respond in an appropriate manner, then stop coming back for more!


Donaldreynolds, if you are here to "play the Devil's advocate" then why don't you address my previous post directed at you, instead of posting all kinds of round-about nonsense in order to try to confuse people into thinking that you actually know what you are talking about?

Please, address it right now because I want to see you put your money where mouth is. If you can't, then stop making disruptive posts and let others have their discussions in peace.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 04:33:00 PM
For those who don't have McNeals book, perhaps you'd like to know who Khokhriakov or Koganitsky was,  page 249-250:

>>The name Khokriakov is also contatined in the fading pages of Rescuing the Czar and is worthy of aditional attention....Pavel Danilovich Khokkrikov....<<  

>>...was a salior in the Baltic Fleet.  He was also briefly the chairman of the Tobolsk Soviet....<<

>>...it was Khokhrikov who was instructed to transfer the rest of the famly the the Romanov suite to Ekaterinburg....<<

McNeal continues:  >>...So how could a book printed in 1920 in American have contained the correct names of minor officals who were virutally unheard of in the western world until recently?<<

AGRBear

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 04:39:06 PM
Quote

Bear, the daughter in law of the publisher of "Rescuing The Tsar" is a friend of mine who also posts here. As she has made clear, "RTT" was written for money, in the hopes of getting a movie deal. My friend told Shay this, in fact many of us did so, but she chose to disregard the truth. Please don't repeat her mistake.


Your friend and I hope my friend, too, have had many PMs.  I respect what she has to say.  But this doesn't mean I can't find interesting facts in McNeal's book.

AGRBear

PS  Her father-in-law was the printer, she told me,  not the publisher.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 19, 2005, 04:39:38 PM
The Emperor, Empress, their 5 children and remaining servants were most certainly killed. There was no rescue - much as some people might wish there had been. There may have been attempts at rescue - or more likely attempts to arrange a group to rescue the IF, but without success. Rescuing the Tsar is fiction. Full stop.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 04:50:07 PM
Quote
The Emperor, Empress, their 5 children and remaining servants were most certainly killed. There was no rescue - much as some people might wish there had been. There may have been attempts at rescue - or more likely attempts to arrange a group to rescue the IF, but without success. Rescuing the Tsar is fiction. Full stop.


When the author/authors were writing the fictional/novel about a rescue in Rescuing the Czar, this does not mean that everything around the fictional event, THE RESCUE, is fictional.

I think some of the best historical novels are the ones where the fictional characters do not interfer with real people and real events but carry the reader from one event to another and make you wonder if they were actually real or made up in the author's head.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
Quote
Robert Hall has informed us that this book is now free on line at:
http://www.fullbooks.com/Rescuing-the-Czar.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 06:20:21 PM
Khokhriakov is mentioned in Part IV at the end of this section:

<<Translator's note._

With paragraph 55 ends the diary of Syvorotka.

Among his documents, however, has been found the following letter,
not in his characteristic handwriting, but in that of someone else,
bearing directly upon the incidents narrated by the diarist. Written
in ungrammatical Russian, bearing many orthographic mistakes, this
document seems to be a fragment of a report, by some unidentified
co-operating agent, to his unrevealed superior.

It is deemed necessary, therefore, for purposes of clearness, to
append this document, as I find it among the literary remains of Al.
Syvorotka:

56<<

[in part]

>>....
Seeing that nothing could be done from this side I went to the rear
and squeezed in, for Ch. was there and he let me do so; but he said
that he had heard shots inside and that he thought all was finished,
and said also that Leinst and three others went to search in
Syvorotka's home--they evidently don't know that all was taken out
yesterday. In the house I found complete commotion. The family had
disappeared, and no one knew where or how. Pytkan was shot in the
stomach and in the throat and I saw him lying on the floor in the
room. Khokhriakov and his men were shaking the rest of his life out
of him, asking where the E. and the jewelry were, but all that Pytkan
could say was "they were taken away." No one could make out what
really had happened and who had shot him; some said that they went
away in trucks, yet, in the evening, some that a detachment sent by
the Soviet took them secretly out, some said aeroplanes. All were
wrong, for Philip had just come back and the trucks were in place,
no one came into the Ipatiev's house as I was on guard, and there
had been no aeroplanes since six o'clock. Pytkan was almost dead when Khokhriakov finally got from him that the family had been shot and
taken away--and then he began to expire. Later the German appeared
and chased us all away,--he sent for his assistant, but they could not
find him.

The family disappeared,--it is true; there was no trace of them.
I continued to look everywhere up to the time that the Soviet
representatives arrived, having been ordered to arrest all people
who were with the family, and commenced searching for the bodies.
The whole place was surrounded by Reds, and all were ordered out, but
nothing was there. Then a resolution was made that the prisoners had
been taken away and shot, and they sent a wire to Moscow. I only know
that inside the house they killed two people and nobody else, anyhow.
Pytkan and Kramer were dead; Kramer probably had been shot from a
distance--the bullet was in his head. There were no more than two men
killed, I know it; so you may feel sure, when you hear that all were
killed in the house that it is a lie. Somebody must have been burning
things in the stove long before--maybe in the daytime or the early
evening; the stove was almost cold,--the Reds got something out of it,
I did not see what it was. When I understood that the whole family had
been taken away, dead or alive, or had somehow disappeared, and that
there was nothing for us to do, I took Philip and we rushed back to
Syvorotka. The trucks and the chauffeurs were all gone. In the
garage we found Syvorotka tied with a rope and shot in the spine, and
bleeding from scratches and other wounds. From the appearance of the
garage we understood that there had been a struggle, but he could not
speak comprehensively; all we got from him were moanings, separate
phrases and words like "treason," "run away," "leave me die here,"
etc., etc.,--he was decidedly raving and very weak. We helped him as
best we could and came back to the city at about five in the morning
and Philip went to Nachman's. They both reported that shortly after
two o'clock, three of the trucks passed on the highway to Sysertsky
Works. Some people were in them, and the Nachmans thought it was our
affair, for the rumors had already reached them that the family had
disappeared or had been executed. This Sysertsky direction is more or
less correct for I know from Syvorotka that supplies were lately being
sent continuously with him to Tubiuk. This way also went Syvorotka's
woman.

S-y and all the rest left,--some people say in the evening, some early
in the morning of the 17th.

Maybe something could be told by Syvorotka if he ever survives his
wounds, and if the Reds do not find him and finish him before they
leave, for he is under suspicion. He still is unconscious, and has
fever. All Philip and I know is that either all our organization
has failed to succeed, or we were all betrayed and sold, or that you
intentionally detracted our attention from the truth.

This letter will be given to you by Mrs. Nachman who is going
tonight to Ufa. As soon as the Reds leave Ekaterinburg we will both
follow,--we are hiding now,--and will report on the facts that we
witnessed and the rumors we heard."

END<<
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 19, 2005, 07:13:37 PM
Over on the thread about Resucing the Czar is found:
Quote
RTC was published by my father in law in 1920 at the request of Consul General George Romanovsky.  He had written this piece of pure fiction with his cohort, Wm McGarry, with the hopes of selling it to Hearst for a movie.  That did not happen, the book was reviewed very badly, and ended up on the remaindered table for $1.00.

All existing correspondence between these two men reveals that the book was a contrived piece of fiction designed to make money.  Both disassociated themselves from it by using a pen name, James Smythe

The book is now a collector's item and sells upward from $700.  Nick was lucky to find an inexpensive edition in France!!

The fact that McNeal bases so much of her book on this bit of nonsense throws her other conclusions into grave doubt.  My family is extremely familiar with the genesis of RTC, but nothing would convnce McNeal that it was anything but the Rosetta Stone that would reveal what "really happened" to the  Romanovs.  Sad.

Elizaveta


In this post, however, Elizaveta said her father-in-law was the publisher.

So, now, I'm not sure.  Publisher?  Printer?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 19, 2005, 07:26:06 PM
Quote
Over on the thread about Resucing the Czar is found:

In this post, however, Elizaveta said her father-in-law was the publisher.

So, now, I'm not sure.  Publisher?  Printer?

AGRBear


Why does it not occur to you that one company could, can and frequently does fulfill both roles? Especially books with a fairly small print run??
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 19, 2005, 08:59:57 PM
Quote
I think by a rationale jury of twelve who odn't belong to the clique -always the same o;e ones - I would not be seen as a cry baby.  On the contrary, just why not accept the frame work and go for a real impartial discussion.
I have the right to measure the responses before I determine that this is or is not a potential group with which I want to be associated.
Your discussions were contentious long before I arrived.  Again translate this comment to we don't want to be brothered by anyone who doesn't agree with the clique.
Got rid of others in the past.  Still trying to hang and ask for a reasonable frame work and I'll post away.

Donald

   We have asked -rather politely I think- for DonaldR to express his points to us (the interested posters and viewers) and all we have gotten so far is a lot of bombast...this is sad.
    I was actually looking forward to a real discussion about whatever information was relevant in this case - I was willing to be open and examine the evidence fairly... But WHERE IS IT!

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 19, 2005, 10:10:38 PM
Dear rskkiya,

I did post the following and I want someone, anyone to answer my posting regarding K & K mentioned in Rescuing the Tsar.

Here is just a thought.  A person wants to know what I think and has questioned me privately about my support for finding out about Rescuing the Tsar I state the following:

Why would Romanovsky, a Russian Czarist offical - fact - enter into something of the nature of producing Rescuing the Tsar unless ordered to do so? Money as a motivation cuts both ways.  Being paid to carry out orders? Then paid off through a scheme.  

McGarry was also working in the war effort - fact.  He was also making arrangements of $300 million plus gold coming from his Japanese contacts - fact - cited in  {Czech gold - where else was that kind of money to hand?) McNeal's book from the McGarry family archives- fact.

I feel there is so much more to these men and what they may have been charged to do. Certainly more than a simple explanation of "money making."  There is a citation in McNeal's book that says something to the effect that "the company" ruined their deal. McGarry family archives - fact

Pay offs most of the time come in the form of a ruse - fact.  

Famous CIA front making baskets and company got so sussessful that they could not supply Pottery Barn and Pier One etc. that too is a fact.

As to what they wrote and the names they pointed out as being public I have not seen one account with names of players etc. that was made public before the fall of 1920.  I've read alot and checked my books O'Connor etc. if anyone has any viable published account please post.  I have never come across a public report  dating before June 1920 in Rescuing the Tsar that names people like Khokhriakov or Koganitsky. It did. - fact

rskkiya,

please address the above facts and respond to the query regarding K & K.  Show me one example where their names were known to the public in the west.

Please.

Donald

Quote
   We have asked -rather politely I think- for DonaldR to express his points to us (the interested posters and viewers) and all we have gotten so far is a lot of bombast...this is sad.
     I was actually looking forward to a real discussion about whatever information was relevant in this case - I was willing to be open and examine the evidence fairly... But WHERE IS IT!

rskkiya

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 20, 2005, 09:08:40 AM
I am repeating a post from another thread:

"RTC was published by my father in law in 1920 at the request of Consul General George Romanovsky.  He had written this piece of pure fiction with his cohort, Wm McGarry, with the hopes of selling it to Hearst for a movie.  That did not happen, the book was reviewed very badly, and ended up on the remaindered table for $1.00.

All existing correspondence between these two men reveals that the book was a contrived piece of fiction designed to make money.  Both disassociated themselves from it by using a pen name, James Smythe

The book is now a collector's item and sells upward from $700.  Nick was lucky to find an inexpensive edition in France!!

The fact that McNeal bases so much of her book on this bit of nonsense throws her other conclusions into grave doubt.  My family is extremely familiar with the genesis of RTC, but nothing would convnce McNeal that it was anything but the Rosetta Stone that would reveal what "really happened" to the  Romanovs.  Sad.

Elizaveta"


Her "entire family" tried to convince McNeal.  It looks like to me that McNeal's work was based on research findings about this book and these men. No wonder she didn't remain convinced by the "entire family." How could they know what a man was doing in 1920? Only Haskins' words and later E.'s understanding of his position to explain his involvement in this book. Is that really enough?

Always on this forum people attempt to sort out long deceased people's true actions and motivations.  Why not Mr. Haskins actions and motivations?  Are E. and Mr. Haskins somehow above it all? This is a strange notion. McNeal's book did not indicate Haskins did anything wrong.  So why the stir?

By the way the Catholic Church tried to convince Galileo that his findings were wrong. His trials were begun around 1625-30. He died in 1642 and it took the church another three and a half centuries to acknowledge his findings.

Donald

P.S.  I have asked now three times for information regarding the Koganitsky and Khokhriakov information.  I found that compelling in McNeal's book.  

The New York Times had an article in December 1918 but certainly no mention of these men.  

I have posted facts and have made a valid request regarding some information that is important  - if not compelling.  

Please respond to this very specific request with the documentation with regard to K $ K being known in the western world. Until then, McNeal's findings on this information stands.  

I do not know how much you want me to put up but let's start with this. I have put up now I will shut up
Helen.  







Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 20, 2005, 10:56:52 AM
Quote
I will not engage in anymore debate as to my right to question.  


And this is only because you are unable to argue our critiques of Alec Knight's paper in an effective way, as much as I am sure you want to. Instead you just try to muddy the waters and to confuse the issue, hoping that some people will buy into your nonsense because you use SAT words. This is obvious to everyone (or almost everyone). Do yourself a favor from now on, don't open any "cans of worms" if you can't handle them.  
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 20, 2005, 04:26:47 PM
..."A CIA front as a basket maker"....
WHAT?

Sorry Donald, but in some attempt to post a clever  & witty response - I am afraid that your last two posts made no sense at all to me -- however I will try to read them again.


Later post
   Sorry still makes no sense -- by the way simply because someone told someone else that they were ordered to publish/write/illustrate a book really means nothing. It can make for some good press as in "Aliens ordered me to build this tower out of mashed vegetables--Isn't it wonderful?" Or "The Hobgoblins commanded me to dance around this small hill until I faint - isn't that great! "   I am simply pointing out that telling someone that the KING/President/DemiGod commanded me to do X may make some people look, but beyond that it means nothing...
    Wait - is there a physical "Order" all nicely printed and countersigned that we can look at? Would that prove anything?

rskkiya


{Tolkien created entire languages and long elaborate histories for the characters in The Lord of The Rings and The Silmarillion but very few people will question that these books are not fiction --- Are you at all familiar with these works?}
rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 06:45:34 PM
Quote

And this is only because you are unable to argue our critiques of Alec Knight's paper in an effective way, as much as I am sure you want to. Instead you just try to muddy the waters and to confuse the issue, hoping that some people will buy into your nonsense because you use SAT words. This is obvious to everyone (or almost everyone). Do yourself a favor from now on, don't open any "cans of worms" if you can't handle them.  


Helen, did you carry a subject over from another thread?  What has Alex Knight's papers have to do with McNeal, whom, I believe, didn't mention Knight in her book. Let me go check.  No, don't see the name in the index.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 20, 2005, 06:56:06 PM
I think Donald, again,  is asking for someone to respond to the fact that  "Koganitsky and Khokhriakov in "Rescuing the Czar" was real and that McNeal talked about him and told us who he was and that he did play a part in the events which did take place around Nicholas II and Alexandra.  [See my posts above for information.]

In this example, Donald is telling us that everything McNeal wrote about wasn't fictional nor was everything in Rescuing the Czar.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 20, 2005, 07:09:46 PM
Agrbear
Thanks for that insite ObviousMan!

OK, if we agree that McNeal was 'mixing' fact and fiction what elements were fact and what fiction?

The Tzar was deposed. fact
The Imperial family was refered to as the House of Romanov. fact
The Tzar was married and had children. fact

So what other facts were you talking about?

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 20, 2005, 09:30:13 PM
Quote
Agrbear
Thanks for that insite ObviousMan!

OK, if we agree that McNeal was 'mixing' fact and fiction what elements were fact and what fiction?

The Tzar was deposed. fact
The Imperial family was refered to as the House of Romanov. fact
The Tzar was married and had children. fact

So what other facts were you talking about?

rskkiya


LOL...too funny rskkiya.  I just left an evening of listening to a certain group of students (squirming on the hot seat) defending their theses.

And this reminds me of a couple of students.  One had written on homosexuality in Wilde's London, but her focus was singularly on one (however significant) pornographic novel written at the time.  This was for a history thesis, mind you.  She had a captive audience but it was difficult to defend her "research" since it was based almost entirely on a work of fiction.

Another student chose to employ "psycho-history" and explore why Hitler might have witnessed various violent sexual acts as a very young child, or that he had only one testicle, etc, and these things are what led him to , well, you know the rest.

These are very, very risky ways to interpret history, and are seldom successful, and generally looked down upon by academic historians. McNeal obviously isn't seeking a tenure-track job, but one would think she would have been more careful about using a fictional work as the main source for her book.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 21, 2005, 01:01:21 AM
Vera_Figner and rskkiya you are grabbing for straws.  Why not go do academic work and answer the K and K query and I will go into more detail when I feel it is a two way street. Yes, I am working on a response to the DNA but I'm not sure it is worth it.  Why don't you get Peter Gill to critique it?  Until such time I think this is a waste of my time and effort. It's not serious here.

Vera, I can't imagine you really sit on a jury - or that is what you imply.

Donald

Quote

LOL...too funny rskkiya.  I just left an evening of listening to a certain group of students (squirming on the hot seat) defending their theses.

And this reminds me of a couple of students.  One had written on homosexuality in Wilde's London, but her focus was singularly on one (however significant) pornographic novel written at the time.  This was for a history thesis, mind you.  She had a captive audience but it was difficult to defend her "research" since it was based almost entirely on a work of fiction.

Another student chose to employ "psycho-history" and explore why Hitler might have witnessed various violent sexual acts as a very young child, or that he had only one testicle, etc, and these things are what led him to , well, you know the rest.

These are very, very risky ways to interpret history, and are seldom successful, and generally looked down upon by academic historians. McNeal obviously isn't seeking a tenure-track job, but one would think she would have been more careful about using a fictional work as the main source for her book.

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 07:41:07 AM
Quote

Helen, did you carry a subject over from another thread?  What has Alex Knight's papers have to do with McNeal, whom, I believe, didn't mention Knight in her book. Let me go check.  No, don't see the name in the index.

AGRBear


I was not the one who carried this subject over from another thread, donaldreynolds was, and if you checked his earlier posts on this thread you would see that. I have a right to respond to his spewings, even though this thread is not directly related to this subject. After throwing out all kinds of accusations, donaldreynolds refuses to back them up on the appropriate thread - because obviously he can't. But apparently he was under the impression that he can get away with spreading his garbage freely here on this thread, in the hopes that no one would challenge him, but he was wrong. Unfortunately for him, he still can't effectively back up his statements here as he couldn't over there.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 07:46:54 AM
Quote
 Yes, I am working on a response to the DNA but I'm not sure it is worth it.  


I will believe it when I see it. I seriously doubt you will come up with any coherent response, I bet you are just hoping that enough time will pass, and all this will go away and everyone will forget and move on, and you will be scott-free. This is what that little "I'm not sure it is worth it" disclaimer is for, isn't it?  ;) I know your type very well.  8)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: donaldreynolds on April 21, 2005, 08:59:51 AM
And I yours.  How about K and K? This thread is the place for this discussion since you and your clique assault McNeal's book each time Rescuing the Tsar comes up. Saying she based her entire book on Rescuing the Tsar.  How silly. Maybe you could cough up something coherent on K and K for starters?  

Again, is this silliness really worth anyone's time?  I have now absolutely decided that there is a closed-minded set here. And I, like other intelligent people who have left, will do so now. Don't do the routine about whining - this is a thoughtful decision.  But I will be back within the next few weeks for my last post on my DNA response when I have finished it.

While I don't know the men who started this site I'm sure when they started this they never intended it to become a discussion environment laced with blood sport as its main attraction for many. Someone else used the analogy of a high school clique - but now it is a virtual one.

How about Khokhriakov and Koganitsky? You know DNA has many schools of thought and I am endeavoring to canvas as many as possible before I post.  But you and others who crow about being so well informed - on all levels - should have an easy time responding to my K and K query. It should  be an easy matter for someone from your school of thought to find a citation of Kand K made public that was available before Rescuing the Tsar.

This is now over, from my stand point,  for awhile.

Donald




Quote

I will believe it when I see it. I seriously doubt you will come up with any coherent response, I bet you are just hoping that enough time will pass, and all this will go away and everyone will forget and move on, and you will be scott-free. This is what that little "I'm not sure it is worth it" disclaimer is for, isn't it?  ;) I know your type very well.  8)

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 09:21:45 AM
DonaldDonald, you really are a crybaby. Can you not respond to Rskkiya's and Helen's questions?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 09:24:04 AM
Quote
But I will be back within the next few weeks for my last post on my DNA response when I have finished it.


Does it take you that long to formulate an answer?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 21, 2005, 09:36:15 AM
Donald
I am still waiting for the response to my earlier post....
Please explain your remarks- I am eager for your facts.

rskkiya


{PS: Are you familiar with "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil?"}
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 10:11:50 AM
Quote
Donald
I am still waiting for the response to my earlier post....
Please explain your remarks- I am eager for your facts.


Rskkiya, dearest, he prefers to be known as DonDon.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 21, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
Quote
Donald
I am still waiting for the response to my earlier post....
Please explain your remarks- I am eager for your facts.

rskkiya


{PS: Are you familiar with "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil?"}


Donald? Are you there?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 21, 2005, 01:45:11 PM
Quote

Donald? Are you there?


He's in the water closet, reading The Hobbit.  :-/ I think he will be there for a while.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 21, 2005, 04:14:39 PM
I shouldn't hold my breath if I were you Rsskiya.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 21, 2005, 04:32:41 PM
Georgiy and Vera F,

     I shall hold my breath - if someone is in the wc with The Hobbit -- it may be some time!  ;D(giggle)

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 09:13:13 PM
Quote
since you and your clique assault McNeal's book each time Rescuing the Tsar comes up. Saying she based her entire book on Rescuing the Tsar.  


Donaldreynolds, if you review this thread, you will notice that I never even once insulted McNeal's book. How can I, I never read it, nor do I plan to based on what I have heard about it so far.

But that's irrelevant. If you would only stop changing the subject and respond to my challenge to back up what you yourself brought over to this thread from the DNA thread, you would come off much more credible than you have up until this point.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 22, 2005, 08:57:08 AM
     I must agree with Helen A. Sadly, so far DonaldReynolds has presented himself as a bit of a bully. He has refused to answer the most civil requests and he seems to prefere spouting vulgarities to evidence.
    However, I do hope that my impression of Mr. Reynolds is incorrect - and that he will return with information and civility to this thread as he seems utterly fascinated with this book. I do not understand his faith in it, as I found the work to be poorly written and full of rather irrational conspiracy theories.
   But should Donald return I will gladly hear him out.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on April 22, 2005, 10:40:15 AM
I'am alittle surprised this went so far,I really disliked the book.I may be having a rough time thinking  anyone would think its worth fighting over
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 22, 2005, 10:45:54 AM
 
Quote
I may be having a rough time thinking  anyone would think its worth fighting over

Evidently Donaldreynolds does  ;).
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 22, 2005, 10:58:48 AM
I believe Donald tried to talk about the DNA but was silenced by Admin. Forum so he came over here.

He has spoken what he thinks, I don't need to repeat them.

It's a difficult task to wade through the posts which have nothing to do with McNeal or her book, accept Elizaveta's posts, of course.

Helen, you haven't even read the book so your opinion on the book is what?  

As for the others who continue to play their games,  I know you're proud of knocking off another person who doesn't seem to have your opinions.

Again, as I have said with others who have gotten this same kind of treatment and have left:  It is sad  :'( .  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Vera_Figner on April 22, 2005, 11:03:16 AM
Don't cry Bear! "Donald" has been here before (I am positive about this and could prove it if I cared to), and he will return in the same or perhaps a new (but not improved) incarnation!

I am sorry you cannot or will not see him for what he is.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 22, 2005, 11:12:08 AM
Quote
I believe Donald tried to talk about the DNA but was silenced by Admin. Forum so he came over here.


You believe wrong, Bear. donaldreynolds was specifically invited to talk about DNA on the DNA thread, and to make specific argument as to what he does not agree with in our article. Instead, he insisted on discussing the Shay McNeal book on the DNA thread. This is when he was asked to go over to this thread because the DNA thread is meant specifically for serious DNA discussions. So then he came over to this thread and started making insinuations about our article and DNA here, again without properly backing up his arguments.

Quote
Helen, you haven't even read the book so your opinion on the book is what?


I never read this book therefore have no opinion about it whatsoever. Nor did I have any intention of even posting on this thread until donaldreynolds started mouthing off about our article here, which was completely uncalled for. Obviously I am not going to sit by and just read his spewings without responding, so I responded. Any more questions?

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on April 22, 2005, 11:15:13 AM
H.A. there are better things to discuss than this book.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 22, 2005, 11:19:30 AM
Why???
Your answer with an example, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on April 22, 2005, 11:22:10 AM
Quote
As for the others who continue to play their games,  I know you're proud of knocking off another person who doesn't seem to have your opinions.
Again, as I have said with others who have gotten this same kind of treatment and have left:  It is sad  :'( .  

AGRBear

    Bear
    You are overreacting - No One has "knocked him off" (you sound a bit conspiracy minded today) Donald may well return and should he offer up information I will be happy to examine it ...
    Try not to appear so partisan -as you shed no tears for Dashova's 'untimely demise' - you must realize that people come and go here without it all being part of a sinister plan!

rskkiya

Topic
Why do some people so love this book? What's the appeal?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 22, 2005, 11:26:04 AM
Quote
H.A. there are better things to discuss than this book.


Absolutely!
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 22, 2005, 11:34:32 AM
Fabulous !
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 25, 2005, 02:44:47 PM
Quote

...[in part]...
    
    ... Try not to appear so partisan -as you shed no tears for Dashova's 'untimely demise' - you must realize that people come and go here without it all being part of a sinister plan!

 rskkiya
...


rskkiya:  >>as you shed no tears for Dashova's 'untimely demise'<<
Bears Ans:  I wasn't aware that Dashova had left us. [ I do hope you are speaking of just this forum and not something more serious.] Had I known, I would have shed some tears because it's our lost when anyone leaves.    :'(     Despite rumors otherwise, I always  enjoy a good debate with Dashova as well as with anyone who sticks to the topic.

Yes, I did get off the topic so I stand caught with this post as evidence and guilty as charged.

Anyway, I hope Dashova and others will return to this forum.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on April 25, 2005, 05:01:15 PM
I hope Dashova ,and others return, but not on this thread. This book needs to be put asleep.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Georgiy on April 25, 2005, 05:34:02 PM
Quote
This book needs to be put asleep.

Reading it will do that! ;D
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on April 25, 2005, 07:08:03 PM
Since most of us have read Yurovsky's report of 1934, let's see how McNeal looks into the time frame for "Contradictions, Absurdties and Implausibilities".

On p. 164

She talks about the Colt 45 which  is said by the Bolsheviks to have been the weapon which killed Nicholas II.

"It's serial number was 71905.  In tracking down the weapon, I obtained additional information the Colt Company historian Kathleen Holt.  If the serial number 71905 were followed by a letter, then the gun would have been part of a Colt shipment to Russia, possibly through France.  But if there was no letter following the serial number, then the history of Yurovsky's gun wold be quite different.  Colt's archives indicate that the gun model 1911 serial number 71905 (without any letter tagged on at the end) was manufactures in 1914 and was sold to the United States government.  It was delivered to the Ordnance Officer at Fort Thomas, Kentucky on 30 April 1914, one of 150 weapons received.  The 45s were issued to officers, military police and pilots only.

"Thus the self-proclaimed leader of the assassins, at least according to the serial number Radzinsky gave, was using an American army issue gun.  Yet American was not supposed to have a military presence in Russia in July 1918.  The US finally sent troops to Siberia approxiamately six weeks later under the command of General William Graves.  If the serial number Radzinsky quotes is right, then how did the Colt 45 from Kenturcky end up in the hands of Yurovsky?"

I think this is a good question to ask by McNeal or anyone else who's interested in the US Colt 45 which was said to have murdered Nicholas II.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on May 27, 2005, 01:26:41 PM
Quote
Hello to all on this thread,

At the end of this email I will pose a question. Let me start by saying, I heard McNeal, the author of The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar, speak last fall.  She was even handed and articulate.  Yet here in this forum she is alluded to by one posting as "not a favorite here."  

I sense from most of what I read that, except a few, not many have even read her book. Her reviews in the Times in London were very good and many academics appreciate her work. It seems that there is a bias here driven by a few - for what reason I don't yet grasp - that has tainted her book to some here who should read it.

I have read her book now several times.  It lead me to some fascinating findings.  In the Q and A period, I did ask her about the DNA - about which she subsequently spoke at length.  At the time the Stanford story was not known to me.  If it had been I would have asked.  But it seems to me that if she had been a part of it she might have wanted to have a few bragging rights.  But she never mentioned it.  

Not long ago I decided to email her on her site.  She responsed quickly and pleasantly. She stated once again, as she did in the lecture, that she was not interested in anyone claiming to be a Romanov.  She said she has been contacted countless times by those claiming to be a Romanov.  She said her interest in writing the book was only to enlighten her reader about the geo-political situation in Russia at the time.  She also said and I quote, "I wanted to examine the allied position regarding Nicholas and his family and therefore I focused mainly on the allied records. and its sercret agents and disinformation efforts.  Moreover, I came to believe that after examing all the efforts at disinformation,  which were widespread, that the Soviets were the masters of the game. They made it an art form, in most cases surpassing the British, for whom Wallsingham, in the reign of Elizabeth, had cultivated the most remarkable methods.  Hence, the Soviet version had to be examined and much of what they alluded in on the night of July 17/18, 1918 simply did not stand up."

When she addressed my question about DNA and Stanford she did say she had high regard for Dr. Lev Zhivotovsky and Dr. Knight and did not believe they had an agenda other than science.  As to the Litwin angle she was at a loss. She said Dr. Zhivotosky was the first to raise questions in the Duma about the Romanovs' demise.  According to McNeal he is a widely respected scientist in Russia.  He was also the first to raise the chain of custody issue. She said that she was not a part of the team nor was she a "consultant."

I have since emailed her again after reading on this site that she was a consultant to the Stanford study even though she had told me she was not.  I thought someone knew something new. She emailed back that as she had already told me, she was not.  But she attempted to enlighten me as to how this notion might have come about.

She said she originally came into contact with a woman who she found very interesting. They actually were in  contact initially regarding a man who McNeal was featuring in her next book.  She said she is working on the untold story of the American Revolution through the eyes of a presumed Tory.  Apparently, this woman also had an interest in this Tory's family.  At the time McNeal came into contact with her she had as a house guest this Litwin.  

According to McNeal that is how the Litwin person came to her attention.  (Now I  am seeing that the Daskova must be the woman McNeal stated was the person who had a common interest in the Revolutionary character's history. I emailed back to ask about this realtionship between the woman and Litwin but according to McNeal it would be indiscrete to elaborate further on the relationship of his woman (Doskova ?) and Litwin.  She suggested if I was really interested I should contact the two of them.  Sorry no gossip here.

I also asked her if she was aware of how this site cast her name around as being involved.  Again she promptly replied.  She stated that her work is often quoted.  But the fact that she is quoted as a source or that she has politely responded to emails or had "conversations with people who have contacted me to argue their case does not mean I support them or believe their assertions.  You may be assured when I sign my name then I am involved.  Short of that, much of what I read and hear amounts to speculation of those who do not know me or contact me for my position. And you may quote me on that."

All told she did say that ocassionally she has viewed this site but time is important to her and her focus is her next two books on other eras of history.

My question - sent to her today and now to you.  Why do so many people here on this forum seem to accept the Soviet point of view without truly submitting it to a critical analysis?  That is the one thing I took away from her book.  Not the same old story.  So much of what I have read seems fixated on who sleep with whom etc. It seems like anytime someone attempts to encourage a discussion, without this subtext, the discussion breaks down to "liberal v conservative" political views of the world and plain old personal assults and gossip.  If this is supposed to be a site for learning then should it seek a different tone?

Why not a search for the truth incorporating all points of view?  I welcome all responses to my question.  


Donald


Quote
So sorry to upset the apple cart.  I thought I was commenting on the DNA.  McNeal gave me a lengthy explanation on DNA. As to that, I will respond in detail within the next couple of weeks to a number of things said on this thread.  However, I do want to clarify what Helen said about McNeal's theory they survived.  I asked her that and she never maintained that - she left it up to her reader after she presented new evidence.  By the way - there is still no detailed refutation regarding her book - just rhetoric and cattiness it seems.  I still don't get it.

Thanks. See you on the other thread about the Secret Plot to Save the Tsar.  

Donald
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on May 27, 2005, 03:03:29 PM
Is this thing back again?
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Arleen on May 27, 2005, 03:42:03 PM
Unbelievable what some people will reserect....this should have been buried deep!
..A
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on May 27, 2005, 04:00:35 PM
You said it! Sister !
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on May 28, 2005, 04:03:07 PM
You do not have to believe in her theories on DNA and other conclusions, so, knowing this is true of her readers, she does present excellent sources and you can go to them, read them and make your own decision.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: rskkiya on May 28, 2005, 05:28:05 PM
Quote
I just read the book.
Number one, I had a hard time getting through it because of errors and poor writing. Also, she lost me in the beginning when she tried to debunk the DNA tests, but offered little more than a few quotes from other scientists. I wasted my money.


Well sadly DonaldReynolds who seemed very willing to agree with EVERYTHING in this work is no longer posting at the moment.

Lexi4,

    While I agree with you about this work, some people are utterly persuaded of it's worth - and if one is rigidly entrenched enough in any doctrine - it's extreamly difficult to reason with them. Donald promised us more evidence. He has failed to deliver it...I shouldn't waste much more time on this one.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on May 28, 2005, 06:41:41 PM
Donald did give us a reply on that particular thread, unfortunately,  that thread has been strictly limited to just scientific papers on DNA and Forum Admin. eliminated his replies and others, including my own.

Donald was then harased on another thread and left the forum.  Since then, two of the posters who had taken part in  driving him off have been eliminated from this forum.

Meanwhile,  I reposted his post here because it tells us that he did talk with McNeal and he did give us her thoughts on DNA which seems to disagree with some of our posters who unforutunately haven't been as truthful as they should be about what they told us that McNeals views were on DNA and with whom she was connected on this subject.  I don't intend to get into that quarrel and those posts are gone....  You'lll have to find donald or write to McNeal for answers.

McNeals book, as I have said, isn't a book that a beginner should  pick up and read because this isn't  something you'd enjoy if you're looking for personal Romanov information, because this one is for those who are  familiar with the  SIS, CIA,  US military intelligence and CHEKA  games being played during that time period.


Of course, McNeal may  have made some conclusions which were may or may not be correct but that is expected when so little information about this subject has been allowed to survive. Therefore,  knowing she was working on limited information, she does give us excellent sources which can be used for your own research.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: felix on May 29, 2005, 01:03:27 PM
This should just go away!
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on May 29, 2005, 10:03:45 PM
Right on Felix. As shoud the book.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on July 14, 2005, 08:38:57 PM
Quote
Right on Felix. As shoud the book.

I stand corrected. I read the book again, this time (as a poster suggested) with an open mind. Her theories on the role of the Allies and any attempts to save the IF family are interesting. Never does she say that the IF escaped, what she does to is present the possiblity that the Allies didn't just sit by without attempts to rescue the IF. Time and the release of more information will tell us more, but this gave me some things to think about.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2005, 12:23:57 PM
I am standing on my chair and clapping.

I give lexi 4 stars.

An open mind can learn new things and adventure to new horizons.  A closed mind can learn nothing new and must be very bored.

AGBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on July 19, 2005, 03:10:56 PM
I am in occasional touch with another British researcher who has written extensively on the British Secret Services and who is publishing a book later this year on the British Intelligence Mission in Russia in WW1.

Part of this book will touch on the murder of Rasputin but I believe there will also be references to attempts by the British to extract the family.  I don't believe that it will make any sensational claims but will strongly suggest that there was more going on than is generally acknowledged (which is pretty much my point of view).

Alas I don't have permission to say any more (maybe I shouldn't have said this much) but if I find out more & can get his permission I'll do what I can to keep the board informed.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on October 11, 2005, 12:07:08 PM
This book is nonsense to the core, no more or no less. I read it and reviiewed it two years back and should really post my review, because it tells what I think of the subject although I could do that another way too ::) It is nonsense, that is all, it doesn't make any sense, and the author just had money in mind because this is such a debated topic, it sells. None of it is remotely historical, and it should be lumped with all other conspiracy theories, and low in the realm of those even. That is my opinion.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2005, 04:34:19 AM
#11
Sunday Times (UK)
3 June 2001
Book Review
Bones of contention
By John Crossland

THE PLOTS TO RESCUE THE TSAR:
The Truth behind the Disappearance of the Romanovs
by Shay McNeal

On a humid July night in 1918, the former imperial family of Russia, together
with their servants, were ushered into a basement room of a mansion in
Siberia. The door burst open to reveal 11 assassins, one for each victim.
Their commander, Yacov Yurovsky, read out the death sentence and a stunned
tsar had time only to plead, "Why, oh why?" before a shell from Yurovsky's
Colt spun him off his feet, split seconds before the assassins' fusillade
turned his family into bloody, broken marionettes.

Such has been the generally accepted version of the end of the Romanovs,
popularised by the film Nicholas and Alexandra, and enshrined in the Russian
official inquiry into the putative Imperial remains found in a Siberian
forest in 1979, secretly reburied and unearthed again in 1991.

Doubts, however, have always remained about the massacre. When the Bolsheviks
first proclaimed, within days of the alleged shootings, that they had
executed Nicholas II, the announcement was greeted by a wave of scepticism -
not least because the tsar's wife and children were specifically excluded
from the death notices. Investigations in the 1970s by two BBC journalists,
Anthony Summers and Tom Mangold, asked further questions, in particular of
the Sokolov Report, the White Russians' forensic exercise in 1919 which has
formed the basis for the massacre theory. Their powerful case, argued in The
File on the Tsar (1976), found much of the evidence implausible.

But Summers and Mangold received a setback with the publication of the
Yeltsin Commission's findings in 1991 and with the unmasking of Anna
Anderson, the Anastasia claimant, as a fake.

Now Shay McNeal provides a further twist to this inscrutable tale. An
American former political consultant turned archival researcher, McNeal was
not satisfied with the 1991 commission's verdict, and believed that Yeltsin
had merely wished to close a sordid chapter in Russian history, ensuring the
DNA and forensic evidence fitted a politically correct solution. Reopening
the Summers and Mangold line of inquiry, McNeal has drawn on newly
declassified files in American and Russian archives in an attempt to prove
the existence of a plot (or plots) to rescue the imperial family.

To do that, she needed to discredit the critical scientific tests that were
the cornerstone of the 1991 commission's argument for closing the case on the
Romanovs. McNeal cites an American expert who claims that the clinching
evidence, the mtDNA match of the Duke of Edinburgh with the tsarina Alexandra
and her children, could not be accepted as proof of identity. It is a claim,
incidentally, that Home Office forensic scientists vigorously deny, although
they do concede that DNA is never taken as conclusive evidence by itself, but
in conjunction with other tests on the bones, preferably soon after
exhumation. These, McNeal asserts, were not done and a question persists
about the Russians' handling of the material.

So, a reasonable doubt remains over whether there was a massacre. What case
does McNeal make, then, for the family's survival? Her trawl of American
Secret Service documents has revealed a string of incidents and relationships
between shadowy individuals, apparently innocuous in themselves but which
taken together point to an international plot to save the tsar and dish
Bolshevism.

Her important new lead on the Romanov mystery has come from the Hudson Bay
Company records, which show a strange obsession among Allied intelligence
operatives with building a luxurious house in Murmansk for seven (the
family's number). In June 1918 a company trouble-shooter also working for
MI6, and Jonas Lied, a Norwegian Arctic shipping merchant, set up a rescue
bid on orders from "C" (Britain's Secret Service head), aimed at spiriting
the family up the Siberian river system, then to Murmansk and finally to
England in a motor torpedo boat. That rescue attempt apparently misfired
because the "snatch" by their Russian confederates was anticipated by the
local Soviet.

Meanwhile, says McNeal, Sidney Reilly, "the Ace of Spies", was busy arranging
a £500,000 ransom to Lenin for the family - bidding against the Kaiser. The
most incredible claim ever made for the tsar's escape was in a book, Rescuing
the Czar, published in a limited edition in San Francisco in 1920 and
withdrawn from circulation almost immediately due to "pressure from on high"
(the British Library has a copy). Although it has hitherto been dismissed as
pure fantasy (with its claim that the Romanovs were smuggled out of their
prison, via a secret tunnel, to the British consulate across the street, and
thence to Shanghai, via Tibet, ending up with assumed identities in Ceylon)
McNeal has applied some lateral thinking to the thesis and discovered that
there was more to it than anyone has realised. She says, "it mirrors many
events that we now know had really taken place but which in 1920 could only
have been known of by someone who was on the ground at the time".


But does her fascinating search, which includes mysterious Tibetan lamas,
disappearing Yangtze gunboats and secret missions by George V's cousin to
Japan, lead us to the tsar? Unfortunately the trail peters out in Ceylon. For
all her hard work (including proving that the "execution" Colt revolver was,
according to its serial number, at a Kentucky army barracks at the time),
McNeal gets no closer to a definitive answer than anyone else. Perhaps Yacov
Yurovsky was right when he claimed that "the world will never know what we
did with them!"

The greatest mystery of the 20th century remains unsolved.

Available at the Books Direct price of £15.99 inc p&p on 0870 165 8585
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2005, 11:16:20 AM
Yes, it will always be a mystery ;)My review is shorter. Thanks for posting that. Still, even if I was a paid reviewer, I would say I didn't like it. Read some amazon reviews for this.  ;)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2005, 11:55:01 AM
When you read the reviews in amazon, make sure you read the bad and the good.

Apparently there are a handful of people who dislike the book and their critical view should not over shadow what John Crossland, a man who knows about the CIA, M15, "Spooks"  etc., and a well known reviewer of such books for the London Times, and others who liked this book.

For me, it's been a well full of information which usually carries excellent sources and I can go straight to these sources and read it for myself.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2005, 11:58:42 AM
I respect all who like the book, although I don't. I also respect all those who believe in Anna Anderson although I don't. At least if you believe the events set forth in this book, you don't believe in Anna Anderson ;)I guess prefer the straight version of the romanov story. Oh well ;) But, to each his own.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on November 03, 2005, 12:04:01 PM
I reviewed this on amazon on April 3, 2004 under the title Nonsense! If you want to read my review ;) 4 out of 6 found it helpful. I should have expanded on it, I believe. P.S. I gave it one star! 8)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on November 03, 2005, 12:22:27 PM
If you are  looking for information about Anna Anderson,  you will be disapointed.

McNeal's information deals with plots to save the Tsar, as the title implies.

One of the points she makes which is interesting to me is the connections of various people, like McGarry, who was in contact with Georg Romanovsky.

See p. 226.

>>McGarry's trading was not limited to steel, for on 20 June 1919 he wrote to George Romanovsky, in response to a request from Romanovsky about b ringing in an amazing #315 million in gold.<<

>>...McGarry and Romanovsky were closely connected to the Kolchak government that was then in possession of the Tsarist gold as well as being the governemnt conducting tthe investigation of the presumed murders of the Tsar and his family<<

Doesn't this make you want to know more?

p. 227

>>George Romanovsky, the other man associated with Rescuing the Czar, as well as the armaments and gold, was in July 1920 serving in San Francisco as acting consul general of the Provisional Governemnt of Russia.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on November 04, 2005, 08:40:57 AM
Yes, I said this book didn't cover Anna Anderson, which is about the only good point it has. Still, that is a good point. :)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 02:51:02 PM
I took a recent look at Shay McNeal's web site.  She has included an interview of herself.  If you'd like to see it go to:

http://www.shaymcneal.com/pages/921977/index.htm

There is part one and part two.

I always enjoy listening to actual interviews of people who have something to say even when it's not popular.

AGRBear  
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Arleen on January 22, 2006, 04:23:08 PM
Thanks Bear, for the website.  I learned a lot.  I too have to read for myself!

Arleen
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on January 22, 2006, 07:12:35 PM
Still, popular or unopopular, what this women has to say makes little enough enough sense, but, again, that is just my opinion. ;)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on January 23, 2006, 12:30:18 PM
I am curious,  imperial angel,  what do you think of John Crossland, a man who knows about the CIA, M15, "Spooks"  etc., and a well known reviewer of such books for the London Times?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on January 29, 2006, 07:48:38 PM
Ok..I have nothing more to say as I must confess I don't much about the person you mentioned.  ;)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: TheAce1918 on June 12, 2006, 08:22:58 PM
It has a lot of similarities to The File on the Tsar...in that the speculation that 'something' wasn't right on that night.  But all in all, it appears to be wishful thinking and theories
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on August 31, 2006, 12:27:12 PM
Right on! ;D
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on October 14, 2006, 06:32:43 PM
Imperial Angel,
I hope you listen to the interview Bear posted for you. If I recall, it has been awhile since I read the book, Shay looks at plots/plans to save the IF. It is not difficult for me to believe there were discussions/plots/plans to try to save the IF. I don't recall that Shay ever says that any one of those plots succeeded, but again I am doing this from memory.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on October 16, 2006, 04:11:50 PM
Well, some of the book undoubtedly has accuracies. Most books about historical subjects have some truth unless they are totally off the wall. I am not saying this one is so. What I am saying is that I read it, and the author's central thesis is silly, and she can't come up with any credible backing for it. I think this is is best left on the shelf. But there was a secret underworld of plots of you will, certainly. Perhaps this book explores that in detail better than most-but read it only for that reason.I did learn much about plots from it.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on October 16, 2006, 07:08:21 PM
Perhaps you should read this recent article:

[www.timesonline.co.uk]

Much of what Shay wrote about in her book, was found in the diary  of Captain Stephen Alley, second in command of the British intelligence mission in Petrograd. I have found that it is best to take a wait and see attitude with books like Shay's and this diariy apparently confirms some of what she wrote. New information always seems to come to light. I think Shay broke ground with her book. I could never believe that there were no plans or plots to try to save the IF. She did not say that those plans or plots were successful, merely that they existed.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on October 17, 2006, 08:31:05 AM
Yes, there were plots to save the IF in foreign countries that may not have had made their way into the annals of more conventional history books. I am not saying there weren't. Some plots are remembered, and some not. But, at the same time, does not this author say one of them was successful? That was the way I read her book anyway. I have nothing against the idea of secret plots, but none of them was successful.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on October 17, 2006, 09:55:12 AM
Yes, there were plots to save the IF in foreign countries that may not have had made their way into the annals of more conventional history books. I am not saying there weren't. Some plots are remembered, and some not. But, at the same time, does not this author say one of them was successful? That was the way I read her book anyway. I have nothing against the idea of secret plots, but none of them was successful.

I don't think she did, but I can't recall for sure. I will look through the book tonight to see.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on October 17, 2006, 12:18:13 PM
Maybe I misread the book. I did have a hard time understanding parts of it, I admit. I read this a while back, too, so maybe my memory is off. But I thought she said the plot succeeded which is unhistorical, of course there were many plots, but we all know what happened to the Imperial Family in the end.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on October 17, 2006, 04:07:48 PM
Maybe I misread the book. I did have a hard time understanding parts of it, I admit. I read this a while back, too, so maybe my memory is off. But I thought she said the plot succeeded which is unhistorical, of course there were many plots, but we all know what happened to the Imperial Family in the end.

I'm curious now. I know I wasn't left with the impression that any of the plots succeeded. But like I said, it has been awhile since I did read it. So now I'm curious enough to go through the book again. ;D
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 17, 2006, 06:01:02 PM
In my opinion was that, had McNeal just focused on the plots, it would have been a very interesting book. That was a part of the Romanov story that had not been well covered before, and she certainly had viable topic. Where I had problem with "Secret" was when she jumped from the plots to survival of the Imperial Family, or part of it. The ground is a bit shakier there, and like alot of books that deal with suvivors, she does not explicity state what she feels happened, she just dances with the innundo. For me, that spoiled what might have been a more enjoyable reading experience.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: lexi4 on October 17, 2006, 06:32:14 PM
In my opinion was that, had McNeal just focused on the plots, it would have been a very interesting book. That was a part of the Romanov story that had not been well covered before, and she certainly had viable topic. Where I had problem with "Secret" was when she jumped from the plots to survival of the Imperial Family, or part of it. The ground is a bit shakier there, and like alot of books that deal with suvivors, she does not explicity state what she feels happened, she just dances with the innundo. For me, that spoiled what might have been a more enjoyable reading experience.

I appreciated the book because of the discussion about the plots. It has always been unthinkable to me that no one had any plan to save the IF. I just never could believe that. And I still can't recall her specifically stating that anyone from the IF survived, but I know that I read it a while back and that my brain doesn't have a big enough hard drive. :D
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: imperial angel on October 18, 2006, 12:28:35 PM
Well, then I believe she did say that one of the plots succeeded. I think she does dance around the subject quite a bit without giving a conclusive answer. That is true, but to my mind reading her book, I felt like she said that they survived, which of course they didn't. I think it is instructive to learn about secret plots, there is nothing wrong with that. You learn much from her book about them, for sure. But survival? No, none of the plots succeeded, however interesting it is to debate might have beens.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on October 21, 2006, 05:27:29 PM
More on Murmansk:

I would be delighted to see Elizaveta's source for the Naval Officer with a family of seven.  I would find it hard to think of a worse place for anyone to wish to take their family at any time.

On the other hand the reference to the house being connected to the Royal family comes from British National Archives (Public Record Office) Admiralty File ADM137/1714 p138 which reads (in part):

"Following received via Christiana from Naval Attache Petrograd for SNO Murmansk begins:

"I have received from Mr Browd on behalf of the Murmansk Scientific Industrial Coy. the offer of the building to be erected on the Dived Company's land near the British Consulate Murmansk FORMERLY INTENDED FOR THE LATE CZAR" (my capitalisation).

The telegram is dated 10th August 1918.  I have a copy of it on my desk.  I stumbled upon it about 10 years ago and it has been partly responsible for convincing me that there was more going on than is commonly realised.

This is a Royal Naval telegram addressed to the Senior Naval Officer at Murmansk and comes from the British Naval Attache at Petrograd, Francis Cromie, a man plotting the overthrow of Lenin & Co and sabotage of the Baltic Fleet.  This telegram is not a mistake.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: AGRBear on October 21, 2006, 05:48:35 PM
I googled:

http://www.shout.net/~bigred/TsarMyst.htm

Shay McNeal's book is mentioned.

Brotherhood of St. John of Tobolsk is also linked to Reilly, Ace of Spies.

I'll go copy a little and bring it back here:
>>The preliminary escape direction for the Russian imperial family was from Ekaterinburg towards the north. Brought into play to assist the Romanovs was the Hudson's Bay Company which was paid by the British to oversee construction of a "safe house" in Murmansk for the endangered imperial family. When "Ace of Spies" Sidney Reilly went to Russia early in 1918, he went by way of "Romanov-on-the-Murman" (Murmansk). The Brotherhood of St. John of Tobolsk, founded to rescue the Romanovs, had their own secret network meant to hide the Tsar and his family in Russia, probably in the far north. The brotherhood's secret symbol was the reverse swastika, a Tibetan good luck symbol. Sidney Reilly, one of whose roles was agent for the Metropolitan-Vickers Company, may have been influential in arranging to berth a British torpedo boat at a river near Tobolsk. Planned was that the boat would go far north with its passengers, past the Arctic Circle. Thus, several planned escape routes were being formed.<<


AGRBear
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 09:13:30 PM
I'm sorry, but I hate this book. Not only did it not make since, but it was outdated upon publication. Does she really buy what she writes? Does she really believe the IF escaped through a hole in the ground by the British troops?

Penny Wilson did a very good review of the book on her website: http://www.kingandwilson.com/BookReviews/ShayBook.htm (http://www.kingandwilson.com/BookReviews/ShayBook.htm)

Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Historybuff_262 on June 10, 2007, 02:45:12 PM
Hi, I was just wondering if The Secret Plot to Save the Tsar by Shay McNeal was reliable or not worth reading at all.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: s.v.markov on June 11, 2007, 08:16:23 AM
There is already a thread on this, with 177 posts so far ! It's currently on page 2 of the Books forum.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Historybuff_262 on June 13, 2007, 08:14:31 AM
Thanks.  :) :-[ I'll do a search next time.  :)
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Bryndis on May 15, 2016, 09:45:30 PM
I found this book at a library and decided to rent it since I rarely run into Romanov related books.
After reading the first 20 pages or so and seeing a photo of Rasputin with Alexandra, Alexei and OTMA captioned "Rasputin, surrounded by 'admiring women'" I started to have doubts.

Is this book a complete fiction, a book filled with crazy conspiracy theories, simply just a bad book or at least outdated? Or is it worth reading for some reason?

I'm sorry for mentioning this book... it seems to be controversial. Please don't grill me.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Geniebeanie on July 14, 2016, 11:28:09 AM
I do not know if it is the same book but the one I read was The Plot To Save The Tsar.  The book was very good,very detailed and I would love to own a copy.  I took the one I read out of the library.
Title: Re: Secret Plot to Save the Tsar-by Shay Mcneal
Post by: Forum Admin on July 14, 2016, 11:44:08 AM
I found this book at a library and decided to rent it since I rarely run into Romanov related books.
After reading the first 20 pages or so and seeing a photo of Rasputin with Alexandra, Alexei and OTMA captioned "Rasputin, surrounded by 'admiring women'" I started to have doubts.

Is this book a complete fiction, a book filled with crazy conspiracy theories, simply just a bad book or at least outdated? Or is it worth reading for some reason?

I'm sorry for mentioning this book... it seems to be controversial. Please don't grill me.

Just noticed the question.  The book is not well researched.  Conclusions are based on incorrect or inaccurate sources and information and some assertions are unsupported entirely. Much stated as "fact" is not correct.

Not worth the time or $ IMO which was also the vast majority consensus at the time.

FA