Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Habsburgs => Topic started by: synnadene on January 29, 2006, 05:45:25 AM

Title: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: synnadene on January 29, 2006, 05:45:25 AM
MARIA KAROLINE (1821-1844), firstborn daughter of Archduke Rainer and Elisabeth of Savoy; sister of Queen Adelheid of Sardinia-Piemont died when she was 23 years old.

Have sy ever seen a portrait of her? Can sy tell me something about her life?
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 29, 2006, 06:54:55 AM
Dear synnadene,

it is indeed very hard to find pictures of Archduchess Maria Caroline Auguste Elisabeth Margaretha Dorothea. She was only called "Marie" in her family.

She was born on 06 February 1821 in Milano and died on 23 January 1844 in Vienna. She was laid to rest at the Kaisergruft, Vienna.

She became "Sternkreuzdame" on 14 September 1839.

I found this portrait of the Imperial Family (1834). Marie is the young lady who is sitting on the floor on the left. She is wearing a white dress and she is looking at the children in the middle of the picture.
Her sister Adelheid is the girl in the middle of the picture, who is sitting in front of Empress Caroline Auguste, who is wearing a violet dress. Actually you can only see her face.
I think the girls look older than about 12 or 13 years in this pic.

Hope, I could help ... :)



(http://www.twschwarzer.de/franz5.jpg)

Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2006, 03:15:40 PM
Very interesting portrait!  :)
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: CountessKate on January 30, 2006, 07:22:02 AM
Fascinating portrait - is there a key to the individuals in it?
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 30, 2006, 01:17:03 PM
(http://www.twschwarzer.de/franz6.jpg)
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: CountessKate on January 31, 2006, 02:48:48 AM
Many thanks, a great historical portrait!
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 03, 2006, 07:22:42 AM
Dear discussion group,

I just read in Habsburg Intim by Chris Sradtlaender the lifestory of Archduke Ernst (1824-1899), second son of Archduke Rainer (1783-1853) and Elisabeth Princess of Savoy-Carignano (1800-1856).

Archduke Ernst was known as a man of honour, although he had built up debts. But officially no one knew this of course, because his brothers Leopold, Sigismund, Rainer and Heinrich always helped him when he was in trouble. So who cares? He lived in his beautiful palais in Laibach and enjoyed his life.

Things changed when Ernst died in 1899. Suddenly there were three persons who claimed to be Ernst's children by his wife - although he wasn't married officially - and they wanted to have their inheritance.

Apparently Archduke Ernst had married a woman called Laura Skublics de Velike et Bessenyö (1826-1865) from Hungary in Laibach on 26 April 1858. As Laura had already been divorced and had two daughters, Emperor Franz Joseph had never given Ernst the permission to marry her. Laura's and Ernst's children were Laura (1859-?), Ernst Heinrich (1859-1920), Heinrich (1861-1888) and Clotilde (1863-?). They were given the surname "von Wallburg", but other sources say that Franz Joseph caused their baptismal records to be changed and to show their names as "Skublics" in 1909.

According to my book, Ernst's didn't care about his children after their mother Laura had died in 1865. Archduke Rainer, Ernst's brother, brought them to Hinterbrühl where they had to live in a palais. Sometimes they also lived in Schönkirchen, a possession of Archduke Rainer. Ernst was also there, but his children were only allowed to see him from a distance. They were treated so badly that Heinrich commited suicide in 1888.

But what do we know about the other children? Laura had to marry Dr. Sedelius Pegger who was much older than her. Her younger sister Clotilde suffered from some mental illness and lived with Laura. Ernst lived in Vienna and built up depts. He wanted to ask his father for help, but he didn't want to see him. Later Emperor Franz Joseph sent a man to him to give him some money. He was also told not to try again to see his father. Then he had different jobs, for example he worked as a waiter.

Does anybody know more about Archduke Ernst and his illegitmate children? Do you think that Ernst really married Laura?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: José on October 03, 2006, 10:43:14 AM
According to P.Theroff it was Clothilde who married Dr.Pegger, 20 years her elder, and when he died she remarried a man 17 years elder.

As to Heinrich's death when he was 27 y.old, wouldn't he be a bit disturbbed ?

http://pages.prodigy.net/ptheroff/gotha/austria.html
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 03, 2006, 03:54:33 PM
That's strange, because I have a photo of Laura and her first husband Pegger.  ???
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 04:19:11 AM
Could you send this photo here?

In "Die Habsburger - ein biographisches Lexikon" (I think it was the one by Brigitte Hamann), a quite huge and detalled one, which I had borrowed several times at the German library in Frankfurt there is an article on Archduke Ernst, where the Wallburg children  are mentioned. You will certainly know this book, but there the case with the Wallburgs is called  "not to be proven". It is said that after the death of Ernst the three "Wallburg descendants" suddenly (the forth had already committed suicide) appeared and wanted to be accpted as legal heirs of Ernst. They tried to prove that Archduke Ernst had been married to Laura von Skublitz (called Baronin Wallburg) and had lived with her in Laibach. Because the (said) marriage was not legitimized by Franz Joseph anyway, the "heirs" did not get any heritage. But the brothers of Ernst paid education money for the (alleged) children of Ernst.
It is also said in the article that there may have been something with false documents, and the whole case does not seem very secure to me, because it is clearly said that "the case could not be clarified". The Wallburgs shall have published two books, one is mentioned in the dictionary:

Ernst Baron von Wallburg, Ein Justizmord...Leipzig,

Other literature, on which the article seems to been based : o.J.; Eugen von Szimics, Die heimliche Ehe des Erzherzogs Ernst von Österreich und seine Kinder, Zürich, 1901.

I think the whole case is strange. It always makes me worried that there are so many cases in history (especially with alleged children, often people, who want money) and cases that cannot been clarified.
It would be interestesting to find more literature, which has an "objective" opinion towards that Walllburg case. Unfortunately until now I haven´t found more, only the article by Hamann.

It´s not proof, but it would be interesting, if you should have any pictures of the children, if they show resemblences to Ernst
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 04:25:02 AM
One thing more: Not that I am understood wrongly, I did not want to say the case is wrong or something, because I have not enough knowledge about it and have to right to say something like that.  I only wanted to say that there are evidently different opinions. Your book seems to have no doubts, if the case is true?
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 05:30:28 AM
Thank you very much! That´s wonderful ...I have never seen these pictures of them!...so the story seems to be rather true?

Does your book/ your literature have any doubts at the story?

I only ask, because of the doubts in the Hamann book make me confused especially the sentence with the wrong documents...
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 04, 2006, 05:37:44 AM
At Paul Theroff's website you can read: According to some sources this marriage never occurred; however, Daniel Willis has told me that he has irrefutable proof that the marriage did occur and that the children were originally named "von Wallburg" but that in 1909 the Emperor caused their baptismal records to be changed to show their names as "Skublics". He has told me that he will publish his research in the future, so I will give no further details here.

In Habsburg Intim the author Chris Stadtlaender doesn't have any doubts about this story. But here we have to be careful, because Stadtlaender loves rumours and half-truths.

Then I had a look into my Habsburg book by Alois Jahn. He mentions Ernst's "secret marriage" and "four children (Barone von Wallburg) by Archduke Ernst: Laura, Ernst, Heinrich and Clothilde". It looks like he didn't have doubts either.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 05:44:55 AM
Thanks for those infos..it´s always interesting to have opinions from more than one historian or authour..! ;)

Interesting is that there maybe still further things and documents that a reseacher want to publish...

Do you know that dictionary by Hamann mentioned by me?


Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 04, 2006, 05:55:24 AM
Do you know that dictionary by Hamann mentioned by me?

Of course. I bought it in Vienna some years ago.  ;)
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 06:05:42 AM
So you already knew everything what´s written there... ::) maybe it´s the only book with doubts?

It´s strange!

I think Heinrich (the son? of Ernst) has also a resemblence to the sister of Archduke Ernst, Adelheid, especially around the eyes. The picture of Ernst is not so clearly that´s a pity...

Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 04, 2006, 07:05:40 AM
So you already knew everything what´s written there... ::) maybe it´s the only book with doubts.

I forgot to read the text about Ernst in Hamann's book. So it was definitely new to me what you have written. Thanks.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2006, 08:11:42 AM

Do you know, if there are still descendents of the Wallburgs today? ???
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 04, 2006, 10:40:50 AM
Do you know, if there are still descendents of the Wallburgs today? ???

That's a very good question ...  ??? According to Paul Theroff's sites, Ernst von Wallburg was married to Maria Juliana Schaden (1863-1948). They had six children: Heinrich Ernst Rainer (born 19 April 1891), Chlodwig, (born in June 1893), Ernestine Maria Paulina Hedwig Anna (born in May 1895),  Maria Auguste (1896-1975), Ernst Walter (born 12 January 1899) and Egon (born in May 1900).

Egon married a woman called Elisabeth Lang in the 1920's. They had a daughter: Eva Maria Skublics who was born in 1929. She was married to Ferenc Pados which sounds rather Hungarian. But why was Eva's surname "Skublics" and not "von Wallburg"? Maybe it is true that Emperor Franz Joseph didn't allow Archduke Rainer's children - if they were his children ... - to bear the name "von Wallburg" since 1909. Anyway, Eva would be 77 years now, so she could still be alive.

Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 05, 2006, 04:48:39 AM
I have looked on different genealogies and generally the story seems to be accepted, I have also found that Ernst von Wallburg had many children, but I don´t find anything about descendants of them apart from Egons daughter Eva Maria, who you mentioned. I did not find anything about her life and if she is still alive. A pity. The thing with the names is quite strange,too,  because on some genealogies they are called von "Wallburg" and on others "Skublics", the site genea Portugal says "Wallburg-Scublics" as a double name, strange. I wonder what is the right version... ???
However there seem to be also descendants of Clothilde, the (possible) daughter of Archduke Ernst, who was born in 1863:
Walfried Pegger, Edith Pegger and Lydia Pegger, unfortunately I cannot find anything about descendants of them.
One question: Are you sure that the picture, which you sent shows Laura with her husband? Because the genealogies I "studied" do not mention any marriage of Laura (especially not with Dr. Pegger), but a marriage between Clothilde, her sister, with him. Can it be that the picture shows Clothilde and not Laura? According to Genea Portugal Clothilde had a second marriage with an Eugen Szimic von Majdangrad (I hope I spelled it correctly). This seems to be the person, who has written a book about the Wallburg case, because he was mentioned by Hamann as authour of a book: "Die heimliche Ehe des Erzherzogs Ernst von Österreich und seine Kinder" (already mentioned)
May I know, where you got the pictures of the Wallburg children from? Are they from the book Habsburg intim?
I really wonder, if the picture with the husband may be Clothilde instead of Laura, otherwise something does not fit :-X
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 05, 2006, 06:47:21 AM
Yes, I found this photograph in "Habsburg Intim" and there you can read that it shows Laura and her second husband. According to Stadtlaender Clotilde suffered from a mental illness and was the only one who didn't try to meet her possible father Archduke Ernst. Maybe the author made a mistake, because in every genealogy I've checked, Clotilde was married to Pegger and not her sister Laura.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 05, 2006, 02:45:21 PM
One question: How were the details from the book by Stadtlaender collected? As I read in the Hamann book the "Wallburgs" firstly became known after the death of their father. So who collected the infos about their childhood and so on?  Were there any "witnessed" or something?
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 05, 2006, 03:41:14 PM
At the beginning of the book, Stadtlaender wrote about different persons she met while working on her book. For example, she mentions interviews with Archduchess Franziska ("Gräfin Wernberg") or with Nancy Vetsera and her cousin Gräfin Hoyos with whom she talked about Mayerling. But she doesn't give any information about her sources in the case of Archduke Ernst's illegitimate children.

Does anybody know Daniel Willis who possibly knows more about this story? I guess he ws a member of the GARMB which doesn't exist anymore.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 06, 2006, 04:08:02 AM
I don´t want to say anything wrong, I don´t know the book, Habsburg intim by Stadtlaender, but if she really does not give any sources, where her infos on the Wallburg case come from , it´s a bit strange ::)
Aren´t there footnotes or something? ???
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 06, 2006, 05:23:12 AM
Aren´t there footnotes or something? ???

There's nothing, only the text.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on October 08, 2006, 02:16:38 PM
It´s a pity that she does not give further references concerning her explanations about that case. Is she a historian? Historians usually must do that, otherwise.... :o :-\
It would be interesting to know, how (other) historians consider that case. It would be be interesting to me to know about further literature. I think Hamann quoted literature, which was written by the family itself, the book by one of the Wallburg descendants, but she confessed that the case is "open". Such non clarified cases always make me crazy :( There is one other case in history- what cannot be named here- which I am occupied with for six years now and I don´t get any foot on the stage in that thing >:(
I will try to do further researchs concerning this here, but if you- you have much more literature!- should find any further proof about that case, please post it. :D
It would be interesting as well to contact one of the descendants of today, but you know my story about the bad experiences with such people, and I don´t have much hope that I would have success, that anybody of them tells me more. Would be thankful for any idea. I think historians would say,"not such an important thing" (maybe), but I must say despite of this, it interests me! :)
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: monamari on November 02, 2006, 04:13:48 PM
The descendants of Clothilde von Wallburg are: Walfried died in 1914, Edith married italian count Alessandro Caravadossi d'Aspromonte and they have one son, Roberto, and three daughters, Vittoria, Adriana  and...; Lydia married in 1911 italian Benedetto Amari and they have five children: Michele (1912-2005), Sedulio (1914- 1998),  Domenico Emerico  (1915), Franca (1917-1996), Maria Clotilde (1920).
I'm the  daughter of Domenico Amari and if you are interested we can give you more informatios about this part of family and we have also some photos of Ernest and Laura Habsbourg.

Monica Amari

monamari@tin.it
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on November 04, 2006, 08:37:05 AM
Desdendants of Clothilde von Wallburg

Clothilde von Wallburg, b at Laibach 12 aug 1863, d at Trieste 1 Jul 1953,
m 1st at Absa  m Tyrol 18 aug, Sedul Pegger (b1841; d at Gnes nr Bozen 5 jan 1891) an had  this issue:

1a- Walfried, b at Lienz oct 1885, naval officier, d in the Atlantic Ocean in 1914
2a- Edith, b at Lienz 6 oct 1888 d at Trieste 16 Oct 1979,
m at San Remo 12  Dec 1907 Alessandro Caravadossi dei conti d'Aspromonte  dei baroni di Toetto della Scarena,
an had this issue
a- Lea
b- Vittoria
c- Adriana
d- Roberto

3a- Lydia b at Lienz  8 Mar 1890 d at Roma 3 Jun 1982,
m at Formia 29 Jun 1911 Benedetto Amari (b at Partanna, Trapani 2 oct 1860, d at Partanna 2 Avr 1921)
and had this issue
a- Michele (1912-2005),
b- Sedulio (1914- 1998)
c-   Domenico Emerico  (1915)
d-  Franca (1917-1996)
e-  Maria Clotilde (1920)


m 2ndly at Wien 11 May 1898 Eugen  Szimic Edler  von Majdangrad (b at Brescia 24 Aug 1846)


With a lot of Thanks to Mrs. Amari!



Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: Dan Willis on November 05, 2006, 05:19:02 PM
Hello,

I want to thank Ulrike over at the Royal Forum for bringing it to my attention this topic was being discussed here.

Nearly everything that is currently known about the descendants prior to this tread was the result of my research on this family over the past 10 or so years. What I know started with a small amount of info published in Burke's Royal Families of the World All other supplemental info came from baptismal, marriage, death and burial records. The culmination of this information is available at my website The House of Habsburg. The link is www.angelfire.com/empire/houseofwillis (http://www.angelfire.com/empire/houseofwillis)

I was extremely happy to see new information provided from Ms. Amari about the descendants of Clothilde von Wallburg, as I never was able to get past the info given in Burke's. I have e-mailed Ms. Amari for more info about her immediate family and hope she will be kind enough to answer.

I have been to Budapest 3 times in search of more details and each time have come away with a small piece of the puzzle. However, there is much still missing. I still do not know where any of the grandchildren of Archduke Ernst are buried, but I have been through the major cemeteries of Budapest without finding them. The only person I found was his daughter-in-law, Mrs. Ernő Skublics, nee Maria Schaden.

The marriage and descendants of Egon Skublics I got from a niece of Elizabeth Lang, Egon's wife. Egon's daughter Eva Maria is still alive as far as I know. I wrote to her asking for more details, but all I got back was a confirmation from her that she was indeed Egon's daughter and Ernő's granddaughter. The names of her children were given by the cousin, I have attempted to find them but with little luck so far.

I also have an account written by the clerk at a trial in 1910 where the facts and conclusion were written out concerning the marriage of Archduke Ernst & Laura Skublics. The trial was brought about by Ernst's son, Ernő, in an effort to reclaim his surname which had been stricken from him the previous year by Emperor Franz Joseph. FJ claimed the marriage never took place and therefore the children were illegitimate and were not entitled to any surname other than Skublics. The court heard testimony from a priest (who was a cousin to Laura) who said he married Archduke Ernst & Laura Skublics on 26 April 1858 in Laibach (now called Ljubljana). According to the priest, Ernst's brother, Heinrich was best man. The court ruled that a religious marriage took place but it was not a legal marriage because it had taken place against the express orders of the Emperor. Apparently Ernst had asked permission to marry Laura Skublics and had been denied.

To back up this court record, I have copies of the birth records of each of Ernst & Laura's 4 children. Each one has the name von Wallburg on it, the name that was adopted by Laura after the marriage. Laura, Ernő, and Heinrich all have a single line through the child's surname box and written above it is Skublics de Velike et Bessenyő and each one has a note stating in German "name corrected by Imperial Decree" and date it was changed. They were all changed in 1909. Apparently Clothilde's was not changed because she was already married and was no longer using "von Wallburg".

Ernst's surviving son, Ernő was legally named Skublics, but insisted on being called Baron von Wallburg (Wallburg Baro in Hungarian) the rest of his life according to his obituary in 1920. I went to the loaction given in his obituary as his last residence, but it apparently had been torn down, because a car dealership is there now. There seems to have been a pattern of ignoring one's children in this family. Ernst had nothing to do with his kids, and apparently neither did Ernő. Neither his wife nor his children were mentioned in the obit. and his wife is not buried with him she is buried alone.

I would be happy to answer any further questions abaout this family. Just e-mail me at HouseofWillis@yahoo.com

Dan Willis, author
House of Habsburg
Descendants of Louis XIII
Descendants of King George I of Great Britain
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on November 06, 2006, 05:10:11 AM
Dear Dan Willis,

Thanks very much for all these explanations! The story is really very interesting. Is it really true that Ernst did not have any  contact with the children and that Laura was burried somewhere else? As far as I got to know it, brother Rainer was against a close relation of his brother Ernst and his children, but despite of that they saw their father, even if only on distance.

How was it? Do you have photos of the sons Heinrich and Ernst? Once here were sent some, but evidently - so says a family member- they are not the onces, which they are said to represent. They came from the book "Habsburg intim" by Stadtlaender, do you maybe know that book and know, if the photos of Ernst children could be wrong?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: Dan Willis on November 06, 2006, 05:59:17 AM
I was not able to see the pictures that were posted here  (they came upm blank on my screen) I have a picture of Ardchduke Ernst and one of his son Ernő they look very similar. My pictures are not on this computer, but I can get to them, I will post them.

Could whoever posted the pictures on this thread please e-mail them to me? I would love to see them!

Dan Willis
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on November 14, 2006, 10:44:12 AM
Hello dear members,


Here are all descendants of Clothilde von Wallburg


ISSUE  of Clothilde von Wallburg Habsburg:


Clothilde von Wallburg Habsburg, b at Laibach 12 aug 1863, d at Trieste 1 Jul 1953,
m 1st at Absa  m Tyrol 18 aug, Sedul Pegger (b1841; d at Gnes nr Bozen 5 jan 1891) m 2ndly at Wien 11 May 1898 Eugen
         Szimic Edler  von Majdangrad (b at Brescia 24 Aug 1846)

 an had  this issue:

   1a- Walfried Pegger, b at Lienz oct 1885, naval officier, d in the Atlantic Ocean in 1914
   
   2a- Edith Pegger, b at Lienz 6 oct 1888 d at Trieste 16 Oct 1979,
   m at San Remo 12  Dec 1907 Alessandro Caravadossi dei conti d'Aspromonte  dei baroni di Toetto della Scarena,
      an had this issue
2.1- Laura Caravadossi b at Varazze  19 jun 1909 m.4 apr 1934 prof. Matteo Falletta
2.2- Vittoria Caravadossi b at Sampierdarena  22 dec. 1914 m. avv. Leonardo d’Alessandro
         2.3- Adriana Caravadossi b at Bressanonne 13 nov 1919 m.Anselmo Sigovini
2.4- Roberto Caravadossi b at Massa Carrara 10 may 1924 m. 29 nov 1952 Francesca Paola Barbiera
   2.4.1 Alessandro Caravadossi b at Palermo 3 oct. 1953


   3a- Lydia b at Lienz  8 Mar 1890 d at Roma 3 Jun 1982,
   m at Formia 29 Jun 1911 Vittorio Benedetto Amari (b at Partanna, Trapani 2 oct 1860, d at Partanna 2 Avr 1921)
   and had this issue
   3.1- Michele Amari b at Partanna 1912- d at Roma 2005 m  1938 Anna Frasca
      3.1.1 Maria Lilia Amari  b1937 d 2   m  1966 Filippo Rotondo
         3.1.1.1 Raffaella Carlotta Rotondo b 1966
         3.1.1.2 Giovanni b 1968
      3.1.2 Eugenio Amari b 1938 m Cristina Gatta
         3.1.2.1 Michle Amari b,1972  m 2002 Laura Zampino
            3.1.2.1.1 Gabriele Amari 2005
         3.1.2.2 Carlo Amari  b. 1975
      3.1.3 Massimo Amari b 1940 m 1981 Edvige dei conti  Piccinelli
         3.1.3.1 Michele Amari b.1985

   3.2- Sedulio Amari b at Partanna  1914- d 1998 m  1939 Anna Rizzo b1914
      3.2.1 Benedetto Amari b 1940 m Margarita Parker
         3.2.1.1 Anna Cecilia Amari  b 1971
         3.2.1.2 Sedulio Alessandro Amari b 1974 m 2005 Alexandra Buffardi de Curtis
      3.2.2 Lydia Amari b 1941 d 1970 m Salvatore Busardò
         3.2.2.1 Roberto Busardò b 1965
         3.2.2.2 Loredana Busardò b 1968
      3.2.3 Adriana Amari b 1943 m 1964 barone Rosario Rampolla di Sant’Agata
         3.2.3.1 Filippo Rampolla di Sant’ Agata b 1965 m Maria Rampolla del Tindaro
         3.2.3.2 Sedulio Rampolla di Sant’Agata b 1966
         3.2.3.3 Rodolfo Rampolla di Sant’Agata b 1968
         3.2.3.4 Ugo Rampolla di Sant’Agata b 1971


3.3      Domenico Amari  b at Agrigento 11.feb,1915 m. 16 jun 1951 Elisabetta Capua b Bagnara Calabra 28 oct 1926
   3.3.1 Benedetta Amari b at Florence 27 may 1952 m at Naples 5 apr 1975 Ugone Spinelli Barrile, XI Duca di Marianella
      3.3.1.1 Francesca Elisabetta  Spinelli Barrile di Marianella b at Naples 12 feb 1977
      3.3.1.2 Violante Spinelli Barrile di Marianella b at Milan 11 dec. 1978
      3.3.1.3 Giovanni Battista Spinelli Barrile di Marianella  b at Lucca 7 aug1984
      3.3.1.4 Desideria Spinelli Barrile di Marianella b at Rieti 21 sept 1990
   3.3.2 Monica Amari b. at Florence18 nov 1953 m at Loconovo degli Amari (Trapani) 31 dec 1980 marchese Marcello Staglieno b in Genova 17 dec 1938
      3.3.2.1 Pierdomenico Staglieno b 21 feb 1984
3.3.3 Emerico Amari b at Florence 3 dec 1955 m at Rome 14 dec 1991 Francesca Carrobio dei conti di Carrobio
   3.3.3.1 Elisabetta Amari b at Milano 21 dec 1997
3.3.4 Maria Selvaggia Amari b at Roma 9 jul 1959 m. at Gironico al Monte (Como) 16 jun 1984 Francesco Bellini Cavalletti b at
               Milano 19 may 1955
   3.3.4.1 Luigi Bellini Cavalletti b at Milano 11 sept 1985

3.4-   Franca  Amari b at Palermo 917 d at Roma 1996 m 1938 at Partanna Diego Gandolfo b 1909 d 1987
3.4.1 Gabriella Gandolfo b 1939 m 1972at Roma barone Diego Mazzonis di Pralafera
   3.4.1.1 Flavia Mazzonis di Pralafera b 1975
   3.4.1.2 Chiara Mazzonis di Pralafera b 1977
   3.4.1.3 Emanuela Mazzonis di Pralafera b 1980

3.4.2 Ignazio Gandolfo b 1942 m 1968  Brunella Vago
   3.4.2 1 Irene  Gandolfo b1968
   3.4.2.2 Elena Gandolfo b1970
   3.4.2.3 Diana Gandolfo 1972

   3.5    Maria Clotilde Amari b at Partanna  10 jun 1920 m at Partanna  Carmelo Oneto dei principi                di  San Lorenzo
      3.5.2 Simona Oneto di San Lorenzo b 1942 at  Barberino del Mugello  m 1968 at Roma Francesco  Pallini
         3.5.1 Fernando Pallini 1969
         3.5.2 Alessandra Pallini 1970
         
      
All these infos were given by Sig.ra Amari.
I want to thank her very much for her reseach!  :)


Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on December 05, 2006, 04:12:51 AM
Here are finally some of the pictures:


a) Archduke Ernst (1924-1899):


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/ErnstHabsburg109.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/ErnstHabsburg111.jpg)


b.) Laura Sckublics de Velike et Besseneyo von Walllburg (1826-1865)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/LauraSckublics108.jpg)


c)Daughter Clothilde (b. Laibach 1863- d. Trieste 1953), married 1 st Sedul Pegger (1841-1891), 2 ndly Eugen Szimic Edler von
  Majdangrad.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/ClothildevonWallburg113.jpg)


d) Their daughter; Lydia Pegger (1890-1982), m. 1911 at Formia Benedetto Amari (1860-1921).


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/LydiaPeggerAmari110.jpg)



Thanks to Mrs. Amari!
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on December 31, 2007, 08:53:17 AM
Hi MarieCharlotte,

The portrait is really amazing. Do you think there is a BIG version somewhere???
It seems that Archduchess Marie Caroline is only to see in profile, am I right? I have never seen her face from the front, but that seems to be hard to get a picture of her !? I always only saw pics pf Archduchess Adelheid, who is also the ancestor of the today's Bonapartes, as her daughter Clothilde married "Plon-Plon", nephew of Napoléon.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 01, 2008, 10:37:34 AM
Hi,

I just tried to post a bigger black and white version of this painting, but somehow the pic was minimalized. Maybe I could send you an email.

You are right. You can only see Maria Carolina's profile. I haven't seen another picture of her either.
Title: Re: Archduke Rainer (1783-1853), family and descendants
Post by: britt.25 on January 01, 2008, 02:42:54 PM
MarieCharlotte,

Yes, I would pleased about a mail with a greater version of the family picture, more in private... ;)

Synnadene, how wonderful that you found that portrait!!!! Nice suprise! The whole site with the link you posted is wonderful! I had never seen those amazing children-portraits of Archduke Rainers kids!!
It seems Marie Caroline had blue eyes, whereas her sister- I was always sure- had brown ones. Funny is the cross in the ear, only on one side (or not!?), which reminds me rather of modern times ;D
Cute picture! Thanks!

I think their mother Isabella had also a daughter from one other marriage, is it not like that? I once had a portrait of mother and daugther, but lost it after my PC crash :'(