Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Mediatized Noble Families => Topic started by: Marc on February 21, 2006, 09:14:32 AM

Title: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on February 21, 2006, 09:14:32 AM
I am readinga book about Prince Clemens von Metternich-Winneburg zu Beilstein and I wanted to start this thread and to know something more about this family,their status and since they got their ''souveriegnity'' at the beginning of the 19th century I would also like to know what were the views from other royal and old noble families about their rise!They made some good matches with Wuerttemberg,Kaunitz...families!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: lancashireladandre on February 21, 2006, 12:21:02 PM
The last Prince, Paul Metternich was married ( in 1941)to Princess Tatania Ilarionovna Wassiltchikov who survives him.The couple were childless.The Princess wrote fascinating memoirs in 1977 ending with their flight from their Bohemian estates by cart to their famous Rhineland vineyards Schloss Johannesburg which had been heavily bombed during the war but was totally restored in later years.Presumably too the Czech properties were at least partially restored after the fall of the iron curtain.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: lancashireladandre on February 21, 2006, 12:25:20 PM
Princess Clementine Metternich the daughter-in-law AND grandaughter of the great chancellor and a famous figure in third Empire Paris was the author of several books at the end of her life.There is a short biography of her in one of Meriel Buchanan's books "Victorian Gallery".
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ipflo on March 03, 2006, 06:42:20 PM
You can find some info about them on the website of their primary residence in Bohemia: Kynzvart

http://www.kynzvart.cz/

(http://www.kr-karlovarsky.cz/NR/rdonlyres/E16B8900-AABD-4906-B53D-5463011DA6F9/0/kynzvart2_big.jpg)

Does some one know which Czech properties were restored? I thought only the properties of 'real' Czech noble families were restored to the original owners like for example the princes Lobkowicz and the Kinsky's

ipflo
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:56:18 AM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/IsabMett.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:57:36 AM
Photo of Princess Isabel Metternich,born de Silva y Carvajal!Any informations about her?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 18, 2006, 09:59:55 AM
Quote
Photo of Princess Isabel Metternich,born de Silva y Carvajal!Any informations about her?


Clemens von Metternich's sixth son Paul Clemens Lothar (1834-1906) was married to Melanie Gräfin Zichy de Zich et Vásonykeö (1843-1925). Their eldest son Clemens-Wenzel (1869-1930) was married to Isabel de Silva y Carvajal. Isabel was born on May 3rd 1880 (Madrid) and died on February 8th 1980 (Madrid).
 
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: MarieCharlotte on March 18, 2006, 10:07:32 AM
The children of Clemens Wenceslaus Nepomuk Lothar, Fürst von Metternich-Winneburg, Chancellor of Austria (1773-1859):

by his first wife Marie Eleonore Pss von Kaunitz-Rietberg  (1875-1825)

1) Marie Leopoldine (1797-1820)
2) Franz (1798-1799)
3) Clemens Eduard (1799-1799)
4) Viktor (1803-1829)
5) Clementine (1804-1820)
6) Leontine (1811-1861)
7) Hermine (1815-1890)

by his second wife Maria Antonia Frn von Leykam (1806-1829)

8.) Richard Clemens Joseph Lothar Hermann (1829-1895)

by his third wife Melanie, Gräfin Zichy (1805-1825)

9) Melanie (1832-1919)
10) Clemens (1833-1833)
11) Paul Clemens Lothar (1834-1906)
12) Maria (1836-1836)
13) Lothar (1837-1904)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:21:22 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/KlemansMett.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:22:06 PM
Portrait of Fürst Clemens...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:22:31 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/KathBagr.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:25:06 PM
Portrait of one of his loves Princess Katharina Bagration...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:25:54 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/ClBloeme.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:27:14 PM
Their illegitimate daughter Landgräfin Clementine von Blöme...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:27:35 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/WilhBiron.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:28:49 PM
Small portrait of his second love Princess Wilhelmine Biron von Kurland,later Princess de Rohan and Duchess von Sagan...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:29:11 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/PaulWuertt.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:31:13 PM
Portrait of Clemens's sister Duchess Pauline von Württemberg...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:33:38 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/Paulin11.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:34:29 PM
Portrait and a close up of his granddaughter Pauline...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 18, 2006, 06:35:28 PM
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/TatMett.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 21, 2006, 08:39:58 PM
And one portrait of the present Fürstin Tatiana von Metternich-Winneburg zu Beilstein,born Princess Wassiltchikova...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Eurohistory on July 30, 2006, 02:53:55 PM
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/arturobeeche/TatiMette.jpg)

Passed away on July 26, 2006 after a long illness.

Arturo Beeche
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: rita on July 30, 2006, 03:41:31 PM
She was born 1915 in St. Petersburg as princess Wassilitschikow.Does anybody has pictures of her childhood?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ashdean on August 10, 2006, 11:11:14 AM
There are many childhood photographs in her marvallous biography "Tatiana" originally published in 1977 but reprinted much later.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ashdean on August 10, 2006, 11:16:00 AM
Princess Tatiana's mother Princess Lydia Wassiltchikova nee Princess Wiazemsky suffered very much in the revolution.Two of her 3 younger brothers were killed :- Dimitri by the marauding troops and Boris by the peasantry on his estate.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 10, 2006, 05:54:56 PM
One should note that Princess Tatiana's maiden name is properly spelled Vassiltchikova / Васильчикова in Russian, the 'w' being used in the French, German and Polish spelling of the surname. The Princely House of Wiazemsky, spelled as Vyazemsky / Вяземские in Russian were a Rurikid Dynasty house who were the Princes of Smolensk in ancient times.

Princess Tatiana wrote the book Tatiana: Five Passports in a Shifting Europe which was published in 1976. It was her younger sister, Princess Maria, who gained considerable fame for being on the fringes of the attempt to assasinate Adolf Hitler on 20 July 1944. Her first hand account of this crucial moment in history was published in the book Berlin Diaries 1940-1945.

David
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: rita on August 11, 2006, 03:36:23 AM
1941 Tatiana met her husband Alfons Duke of Metternich- Winneburg. After WW II they went to Johannisberg in the Rheingau. ( one of the nicest places in the world  :) ). In Schloss Johannisberg - http://www.schloss-johannisberg.de - they lived and were buried.
Tatiana was one of the founder of the Rheingau Musik Festival. Many concerts take place in Schloss Johannisberg
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 11, 2006, 09:35:44 AM
May I also add that Fursten Tatiana and her husband were single handedly responsible for the restoration of the legendary vineyards of Schloss Johannisberg.  I have been most fortunate to have met their winemaker and sampled their wines, and which are now today considered among the very best of the best in Germany.  Their eiswien sells here in the US for about $500 for a 375ml bottle!! and you know what? Its worth it! He told me that even in her advanced age, Tatiana was still concerned with the progress of the wine and continued to sample them.

Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on August 17, 2006, 05:32:13 AM
During the last weeks, I´m searching for info about the Congress of Vienna, and I must say that I´m fascinated about the private life of the great statesman and perhaps the most important diplomat of the time.

I know that he was married three times...the first marriage to Eleonore von Kaunitz was a great coup that opened for him the doors of the austrian court. His second wife was Antoinette von Leykam and the third, Melanie Zichy-Ferraris. I just have found a portrait of the first wife, Eleonore:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/EleonorevonKaunitz.jpg)

When Metternich married Eleonore, named Lorel, he was very fond of Marie-Constance de La Force. Anyone have info about this lady?

Well, Metternich was linked to some of the most beautiful and notorious woman of his time. I´m talking about Katharina, princess Bagration, mother of his daughter Clementine; Wilhelmine Biron, duchess of Sagan and, later, Dorothea Benkendorff, by marriage countess and princess of Lieven. During the Congress, Metternich and tsar Alexander I of Russia were rivals because the two man were linked to Katharina Bagration, the nacked angel or the russian andromeda, and also to Wilhelmine of Sagan. There are portraits of the three woman:

-Katharina Bagration
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/KatherineBagrationminiaturebyIsabey.jpg)

-Wilhelmine Biron of Sagan


-Dorothea of Lieven
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/DorotheavonLievenportrait.jpg)

The three shared their beds with Metternich. Katharina and Wilhelmine shared their beds, also, with Alexander I. And rumor has linked Katharina to count Carl Rudolf von Schulenburg, later third husband of Wilhelmine.

More info?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: bel air on August 21, 2006, 05:18:25 PM
I was so fortunate to know furstinTatiana. Mere days before leaving the states for what I thought was a mere visit to europe, based in Amsterdam, I received a post card inviting me to phone her once I arrived in Amsterdam. I had plans to travel on to Paris, when my Amsterdam living situation and research project became more involved, and I received a firm invitation to present myself at Johannisberg at a certain time on a certain day.
The train, traveling down the west bank of the Rhine, passed Johannisberg on the left, it's necessary to take the train to Frankfurt Airport, then drive back up the Rheingau to Rudesheim and Geisenheim to reach Johannisberg. The site up on the hilltop from below was magnificent!
Terse and to the point at first, furstin von Metternich really scooped me up and took over my travel plans and destinations. Thankfully, I made a good enough impression to be recommended to,  and to meet, prinzessin Margaret von Hessen, prinz Enrico d'Assia, graf Matuschka, and many others. All were charming, educated, gracious, extremely well read and traveled, and so generous with their time.
My coorespondence with furstin von Mettenich lasted many years, and I began an acquaintance with her nephew Mischka, son of her sister Missie, author of "Berlin Diaries," surely one of the best book of memoirs of the second World War.
A great, great and interesting lady, last representative of many long gone generations, and probably the last true White Russian!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 09, 2006, 10:37:38 AM
Here are some links:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/19/db1901.xml&site=5&page=0

http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/08_21_06/socialdiary08_21_06.php
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Lucien on September 10, 2006, 12:23:56 PM
Schloss Johannisberg,once home of Prince Paul and Princess Tatiana Metternich:

http://www.schloss-johannisberg.com/frame.htm

Hillenraad castle,Swalmen,The Netherlands,home of Countess E.Wollf-Metternich,

http://www.kasteleninnederland.com/fotodetails.php?fid=600

Courtesy John Wennips.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Eurohistory on September 10, 2006, 09:49:29 PM
Fürst Paul Alfons was the sixth title-holder and last Prince von Metternich-Winneburg. 

Sadly, his marriage to Princess Tatiana Wassiltchikov (1915-2006) remained childess, although it is strongly rumored in aristocratic circles that Fürst Paul fathered at least two children by other titled ladies.

Fürst Paul Alfons died in 1992. He was 75 years old.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Lucien on September 11, 2006, 12:50:40 PM
Upon his death Princess Tatiana was left "more or less" pennyless as Prince Paul's mistress inherited the bulk,oh men....
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ipflo on September 18, 2006, 02:37:24 AM
thx for the info

So there are no longer metternich's. and how does duke Frans Albrecht Metternich Sandor relates to the Metternich family?

ipflo
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 18, 2006, 05:56:55 AM
Dear ipflo,

Clemens von Metternich had a daughter called Léontine (1811-1861) by his first wife Marie Eleonore von Kaunitz-Rietberg. She was married to Moritz Graf Sándor von Szlavnicza (died 1878). Léontine and Moritz had a daughter, Pauline Gräfin Sándor von Szlavnicza (1836-1921).
Richard von Metternich (1829-1895), Clemens von Metternich's only child by his second wife Maria Antonia von Leykam, married his niece Pauline in 1856. The couple had three daughters: Sophie (1857-1941), Antoinette (1862-1890) and Clémentine (1870-1963).
Sophie married Albrecht Fürst zu Oettingen-Oettingen und Oettingen-Spielberg. Sophie's only daughter Elisabeth Pauline (1886-1976) was married to Viktor Duke von Ratibor, Fürst von Corvey, Prince zu Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst-Breunner-Enkevoirth (1879-1945). Elisabeth and Victor had a son, Franz Albrecht. In 1926 or 1927 Franz Albrecht was adopted by his grandmother Sophie's sister Clémentine and took the additional surname "Metternich-Sándor".

Clemens von Metternich > Richard von Metternich > Sophie zu Oettingen, née von Metternich > Elisabeth Pauline Duchess of Ratibor (etc.), née zu Oettingen > Franz Albrecht

but we could also say:

Clemens von Metternich > Léontine Gräfin Sándor von Szlavnicza, née Metternich > Pauline von Metternich, née Gräfin Sándor von Szlavnicza > Sophie zu Oettingen, née von Metternich > Elisabeth Pauline Duchess of Ratibor (etc.), née zu Oettingen > Franz Albrecht
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Rani on September 22, 2006, 09:43:43 AM
Hello! Here are some pictures of Tatiana.
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/tatjana.jpg)



Tatianas parents. I forgot the names. Iwill look at them.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/mutter.jpg)

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/vater.jpg)

Tatiana and her husband Paul metternich.

(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/tatjana2.jpg)


bye, bye!




Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Rani on November 01, 2006, 08:30:15 AM
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f359/palethingirl/pauline.jpg)

Can anyone tell anything about her? I know that she was the big Diva in Vienna, and the enemy of Sisi.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: gogm on November 01, 2006, 10:27:56 PM
When in France, she discovered the house of Worth and acquainted her friend, the Empress Eugenie, with Worth. That launched the house of Worth, the first modern couture house.

I believe she may have been involved in an incident later on when her husband and she walked out of a soiree hosted by Napolen III and Eugenie on hearing that Maximilian had been shot in Mexico. The French were propping up Maximilian until the U. S. Civil War ended and thousands of battle-hardened U. S. troops, probably the best in the world then, were moved to the border with Mexico to enforce the Monroe Doctrine (Europeans keep out, this hemisphere is ours).
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on November 02, 2006, 03:02:15 AM



Leontine Adelheid Marie Pauline of Metternich-Winneburg was one of the daughters of prince Klemens von Metternich-Winneburg by his first wife, Eleonore (Laure) von Kaunitz-Rietberg. Leontine was married, when she had twenty-four, with an hungarian count, Moriz Sándor of Szlavnicza, known in the Empire as a passionate horseman. One year after the wedding Moriz & Leontine, they had their only daughter, Pauline Clementine Marie Walburga Sándor of Szlavnicza, born in Wien 26th February 1836.

Pauline spent her whole childhood in the Wien residence of her maternal grand-father, prince Metternich, who lived with his third wife, Melanie Zichy-Ferraris. Of course, Paulina knew from her most tender age Richard, the only son born in the second marriage of Metternich with lovely Maria Antonia von Leykam, so a younger half-brother of Leontine and uncle of Pauline ;) On June 1856, Richard, twenty seven years old, married his niece Pauline, twenty years old. It was a love match. They were happy, despite the frequent affairs of Richard with actresses. I suppose that Pauline could understand very well her unfaifthful husband. Richard had a deep resemblance with his father, Pauline´s grand-father, Klemens. As a young diplomat, Richard wished to became an emminence of european diplomacy as his father was, and, in his private life, Richard followed the line traced by Klemens, too... Remember that old Metternich had a very succesful marriage with his first wife Eleonore (grand-mother of Pauline) as he had extra conjugal relationships with notorious women as the russian Ekaterine Bragation, the princess of Courland Wilhelmine Biron or, later, Dorothea princess Lieven ;)

Pauline, a energetic and passionate woman, ardent patron of music, accompanied her husband to the diplomatic missions at Dresden and, later, Paris. This was another connection to her grand-mother Eleonore, who, as a newly married, accompanied Klemens to diplomatic missions at Dresde and Paris, too ;)

Richard and Pauline had three daughters:

1.-Sophie Marie Antoinette Leontine Melanie Julie Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
2.-Antoinette Pascaline Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
3.-Klementine Marie Melanie Sophie Leontine Crescentia Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.

The younger daughter, Klementine, was badly injured by her dog in her childhood. She survived, but she was disfigured...and she decided never to marry due her scarred face. Another tragedy in Pauline´s life happened in 1890, when her son-in-law Georg Wilhelm von Waldstein, insane and alcoholic, murdered his wife Antoinette Pascaline in Duchkov. This also remembered her grand-mother Eleonore, who suffered a lot when she lost before time his two elder daughters, the clever and lovely Marie (favourite of her father) and the beautiful Clementine.

Pictures of Pauline:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/PaulineIII.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/PaulineMetternichdaughterLeontine.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/PaulineMetternichII.jpg)

Pauline described herself as the "best-dressed monkey at Paris". She was not a beauty, but she had her own style and she became the face of fashion in Second Empire. French courtiers nicknamed her "Madame Chiffon", but, at the same time, all their wives and daughters wished to wear chiffon dresses in a special tone of green as Pauline did. She was always a woman of character, who performed operas an her house playing a role herself, but also fought a duel in Liechtenstein, on 1892, with countess Kielmansegg over arrangements at the Vienna Musical and Theatrical Exhibition!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Rani on November 02, 2006, 07:53:15 AM
Thank you for the information! In all books about Sisi, there was always written that she was a ugly women and a Gossip-Lady!  :-\
I think she was a cool girl! :D
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ashdean on November 02, 2006, 10:58:20 AM
In her book Victorian Gallery, Meriel Buchanan has a brief chapter on the legendary Princess..
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on November 02, 2006, 04:49:02 PM
Thank you for the information! In all books about Sisi, there was always written that she was a ugly women and a Gossip-Lady!  :-\
I think she was a cool girl! :D

Well, the Winterhalter´s portrait flatter her, but, indeed, Pauline was not a beauty, she seems a ugly woman when you look at the pictures taken on her. A gossip-lady...mnnnn, maybe. I have read somewhere that her enemies at Wien nicknamed her "Mauline", from "mauvaise langue"... I think that Pauline enjoyed so much her role as a reputed socialite, the most fashionable lady of her times. She was clever and she had plenty of entertaining ideas. She was just the opposite to Sissi ;)

Another portrait of Pauline as an aged woman:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/Paulineasanoldlady.jpg)

Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Rebecca on November 02, 2006, 05:44:02 PM
The weapon chosen in the duel between princess Pauline and countess Kielmannsegg was sword.  :o In the third round the princess got a cut on her nose... :o ... at the same time as the countess was slightly injured in her arm. The seconds (two other noble ladies) then quickly declared the duel ended...  :D
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Pierre NICOLAS on February 08, 2007, 10:05:45 AM
Are you sure this is a portrait of Dorothea?
If so, it is not a good one, if we compare it to the 3 other portraits available.
Do you know its origin?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on February 08, 2007, 10:31:17 AM
To Pierre:

I can´t be really sure, Pierre. I have found the portrait at the net, and the lady was identified as Dorothea princess von Lieven. I´m very interesting in the Metternich relationship with Wilhelmina of Sagan, and, as you know, the iron chancellor related a lot of details about the liaison to her "chčre amie" Dorothea of Lieven...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Pierre NICOLAS on February 08, 2007, 12:50:31 PM
Hello Yseult,

Here is to compare (and I hope I will make no mistake in the correct way to insert the pictures...)

The portrait you gave which, indeed, has illustrated the cover of a biography of her
http://www.pierrenicolas.com/Lieven/Ancestors%20and%20relatives/pages/DorotheevBenckendorfLieven00.htm

An engraving of a portrait by Dawe, I believe...
http://www.pierrenicolas.com/Lieven/Ancestors%20and%20relatives/pages/DorotheevBenckendorfLieven02.htm

The portrait by Lawrence, which George IV had above his bed
http://www.pierrenicolas.com/Lieven/Ancestors%20and%20relatives/pages/DorotheevBenckendorfLieven03.htm

and her last portrait, by a French painter
http://www.pierrenicolas.com/Lieven/Ancestors%20and%20relatives/pages/DorotheevBenckendorfLieven04.htm

Either the first one is of a different person, or it's a bad one.

Regards
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on February 08, 2007, 01:37:02 PM
Mnnnn...I have my doubts, Pierre. It seems to me the same person but...the first portrait shows a Dorothea more beautiful ;) This is not strange to me. I have a good number of images of Dorothea of Dino, for example, and she seems not the same person if you look at all these images... And if you look the engraving of Wilhelmina of Sagan, I think she was not as beautiful here as she was painted by Giusseppe Grassi...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ipflo on May 27, 2007, 05:04:52 AM
Hello,

Does some one has information on the Metternich Winneburg family? I knew they have had great estates in Bohemia (which ones were they, and had they only estates in Bohemia?), and had a wine castle in Germany. But the last prince had to sell this latter estate in 1970's. When the last prince died, did he had an inheritor for his estates or? And also have heard about a Metternich Sandor family, who are they and how do they relate to the Metternich Winneburgs?

thx

ipflo
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on May 27, 2007, 09:53:03 AM
Metternich-Winneburg(not Winneberg) zu Beilstein family had a castle Johannisberg and since Metternich-Winneburg family is now extinct Metternich-Sandor cousins(through female line) were adopted and they among others use family name of Metternich...there is somewhere in german section a thread about this family!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ipflo on May 28, 2007, 12:30:04 PM
The Metternich Sandors were adopted by the Metternich-Winneburgs? That's interesting: I thought the adoption of the Hohenlohe-Schillingfürsts was only by the Metternich Sandors.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: ipflo on May 30, 2007, 05:55:57 AM
Ok. So the Metternich Sandors are not the heirs to the Metternich Winneburgs, but only the 'Sandor branch'?

thx.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on May 30, 2007, 07:29:12 AM
Sandor is a family name Metternich family added to their name through Pauline who married  Richard via Princess Leontine-her mother,so that was the same family who inherited that name through female line.If the were Metternich-Winneburg now the name would be Metternich-Sandor-Winnebur0g.There is also a family Wolff-Metternich zur Gracht which have a title of Count and are still alive today.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Princess Susan on August 26, 2007, 05:53:47 AM
Does anybody have Pouline's photos with her husband or doughters by Disderi or another author?
Or any painting picture?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: beladona on August 28, 2007, 03:52:47 PM
Sorry for the last post...I sent it before time ;)

Richard and Pauline had three daughters:
1.-Sophie Marie Antoinette Leontine Melanie Julie Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
2.-Antoinette Pascaline Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
3.-Klementine Marie Melanie Sophie Leontine Crescentia Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.

Another tragedy in Pauline´s life happened in 1890, when her son-in-law Georg Wilhelm von Waldstein, insane and alcoholic, murdered his wife Antoinette Pascaline in Duchkov. This also remembered her grand-mother Eleonore, who suffered a lot when she lost before time his two elder daughters, the clever and lovely Marie (favourite of her father) and the beautiful Clementine.

May I ask, where did you find these terrible story? I know very well genealogy of Waldstein family and I was always wonder why these young couple died so early (Georg Wilhelm died three months after his wife Antoinette)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on August 29, 2007, 10:16:27 AM
Sorry for the last post...I sent it before time ;)

Richard and Pauline had three daughters:
1.-Sophie Marie Antoinette Leontine Melanie Julie Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
2.-Antoinette Pascaline Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.
3.-Klementine Marie Melanie Sophie Leontine Crescentia Metternich-Sándor von Winneburg.

Another tragedy in Pauline´s life happened in 1890, when her son-in-law Georg Wilhelm von Waldstein, insane and alcoholic, murdered his wife Antoinette Pascaline in Duchkov. This also remembered her grand-mother Eleonore, who suffered a lot when she lost before time his two elder daughters, the clever and lovely Marie (favourite of her father) and the beautiful Clementine.

May I ask, where did you find these terrible story? I know very well genealogy of Waldstein family and I was always wonder why these young couple died so early (Georg Wilhelm died three months after his wife Antoinette)

Hello, beladona ;)
I´m very sorry, but I don´t remember exactly where I found these stories...I wrotte my post, as you can see with your eyes, on November 02, 2006...a few months ago. My knowledge about the Metternich´s family comes mainly from a good number of books focused on Klemens von Metternich. Sometimes, books explains what happened to the family after his death. I suppose I read it in one book, but I can´t tell you more. The story impressed me so much.
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 12, 2007, 07:05:12 AM
Do we have pictures of Pauline's three daughters?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: beladona on May 09, 2008, 04:43:42 AM
Klemens Wenzel Nepomuk Lothar Prince Metternich-Winneburg is most famous memeber of house Metternich. But what about his siblings, wives and children?

Klemens had two siblings, Kunigunde, married (when she was nearly fifty years old) to Duke  Ferdinand of Württemberg, and younger brother Joseph. Is anything more known about them? Did they anyhow share the fame and position of their brother?
Kunigunde (b. 29 Nov 1771, d. 23 Jun 1855); m. 23 Feb 1817 Duke Ferdinand of Württemberg
Joseph Lothar Clemens (b. 14 Nov 1774, d. 9 Dec 1830); m. Juliane Franziska Pss Sulkowska

Klemens Metternich was three times married, his wives were:
Marie Eleonore Pss von Kaunitz-Rietberg (b. 1 Oct 1775, d. 19 Mar 1825)
Maria Antonia von Leykam, cr 1827 Countess von Beylstein (b. 15 Aug 1806- d. 17 Jan 1829)
Melanie Gfn Zichy (b. 28 Jan 1805, d. 3 Mar 1854)
Are there any pictures of them? His second marriage was found scandalous, because Maria Antonia was very beautiful, but not rich and not from high society. I know, there is a beautiful portrait of her, standing on terrace, but i did not find it on web.

Klemens had 14 children (and ilegitimate daughter by Katharina Bagration):
from first marriage:
Maria Leopoldina (b. 17 Jan 1797, d. 24 Jul 1820); m. 15 Sep 1817 Joseph Esterhazy
Franz (b. 21 Feb 1798, d. 3 Dec 1799)
Clemens Eduard (b. 1799, d. 15 Jul 1799)
Viktor (b. 12 Jan 1803, d. 30 Nov 1829); he had a son by Claire de Maillé de La Tour-Landry, Roger Armand Victor von Aldenburg (b. 21 Oct 1827, d. 14 Oct 1906)
Clementine (b. 30 Aug 1804, d. 6 May 1820)
Maria Antonia (b. 25 Aug 1806, d. 17 Jan 1829)
Leontine (b. 18 Jun 1811, d. 6 Nov 1861); m. 8 Feb 1835 Moritz Sándor von Slavnicza (d.23 Feb 1878)
Hermine (b. 1 Sep 1815, d. 8 Dec 1890)

from second marriage:
RICHARD Clemens (b. 7 Jan 1829, d. 1 Mar 1895); m. 30 Jun 1856 Pauline Sándor von Szlavnicza (b. 26 Mar 1836, d. 28 Sep 1921)

from third marriage:
Melanie (b. 27 Feb 1832, d. 16 Nov 1919); m. 20 Nov 1853 Joseph Zichy de Zich et Vásonykeö
Clemens (b. 21 Apr 1833, d. 10 Jun 1833)
PAUL Clemens Lothar (b. 14 Oct 1834, d. 6 Feb 1906); m. 9 May 1868 Melanie Zichy de Zich et Vásonykeö (b. 16 Aug 1843, d. 3 Aug 1925)
Maria (b. 23 Mar 1836, d. 12 Jun 1836)
Lothar (b. 12 Sep 1837, d. 2 Oct 1904); m.1st 21 Apr 1868 Karoline Reitter (d.21 Sep 1899); m.2d 5 Jun 1900 Franziska Mittrowsky von Mittrowitz (b. 10 Nov 1846, d. 19 Mar 1918)

Most of children from first marriage died very young, only two daugters survived their father.  Favourite child of Clemens was his firstborn daughter, Maria. Her early death devastated him (moreover two months before her death died her younger sister Clementina).
Any informations and pictures of his children?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Yseult on May 09, 2008, 11:53:00 AM
This is his first wife, Eleonore "Laure" von Kaunitz:

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm243/Gallaeciafulget/EleonorevonKaunitz.jpg)

Not her father, count von Kaunitz, neither her maternal aunt Eleonore von Liechtenstein, "Duchess Lory", an arbiter of Vienna´s society, were happy when young Laure fell in love with Klemens. But Laure was strong-willed enough to make them to accept her engagedment to Klemens, who was, in turn, to frankly enough to say that he was to marry the rich heiress because his parents wished it.

And this is Marie, elder daughter of the couple and favourite daughter of Klemens. He said: "I always find myself again in her".

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm243/Gallaeciafulget/MarieMetternich.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: beladona on May 12, 2008, 03:13:12 PM
Portrait of Pauline Kunigunde, sister of Klemens Metternich, painted by Joseph Grassi in 1798:

(http://wilnitsky.com/pictures/grassi9148a.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2008, 07:32:10 PM
I don't think that there is a portrait of Antoinette von Leykam on the web...I would also like to see her,but... :-(
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: beladona on June 03, 2008, 10:09:41 AM
I don't think that there is a portrait of Antoinette von Leykam on the web...I would also like to see her,but... :-(

Seek and you will find!:)
Portrait of "a beauty" Antoinette Leykam, second wife of Clemens Metternich from castle Kynzvart:

(http://www.kynzvart.cz/images/imga18.jpg)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2008, 09:32:40 PM
Great Beladona,she really was beautiful...such a rare one to find!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on June 04, 2008, 09:44:09 PM
Is there any portrait of his wife Eleonore in colour or his parents?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 07, 2010, 04:07:59 PM
Does some one know which Czech properties were restored? I thought only the properties of 'real' Czech noble families were restored to the original owners like for example the princes Lobkowicz and the Kinsky's
It's not "Czech heritage" that is the deciding factor, but whether the nobles were loyal to Czechoslovakia. Those who had their properties nationalized because they were "enemies of Czechoslovakia" (i.e. they supported German expansion and/or Nazism in the 1920-30-40s) are not eligible for restitution, whereas those who were merely "enemies of the people" and had their properties nationalized by the Communists are eligible.

Their illegitimate daughter Landgräfin Clementine von Blöme...
Ah, that's a daring translation of the hard-to-translate Danish title (the Blomes were a Holsteinian family) of lensgreve and lensgrevinde. The most logical German translation is Lehnsgraf and Lehnsgräfin. In English it's trickier: Fief count, feudal count, enfeoffed count, entailed count?

While basically somewhat of the same concept, "Landgrave" would give quite the wrong impression, as a lensgreve was not at all ruling a major immediate territory, but a large estate which he had formally surrendered to the King and received back as a majorat with powers of local justice, in pseudo-feudal fashion termed fiefs. (There were also lensbaroner or enfeoffed barons, with smaller fiefs.) While all other counts who were merely titular were simple grever, counts, there were also titular lensgrev(inde)r, among them King Frederik VII's morganatic wife Countess Danner!

BTW if the biological father of Countess Clementine Blome (the "von" is usually ommitted when it comes to titled Danish nobles) was Metternich, then I understand better why her son Count Gustav Blome went into Austrian service after Schleswig-Holstein became Danish and settled as Fideikommissherr (Lord of an Entail or Majorat) of Montpreis in Styria (today in Slovenia).

BTW I've been to the Blomes' castle Salzau in Holstein (very nice bike tour from Kiel) and although I'm normally not a great fan of the Second Empire-ish style, I liked it very much. I certainly prefer it to the strange Neo-Gothicism of the Blumenburg and it's just sooo Schleswig-Holsteinian with the white castle and the pond:

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/2399155.jpg)
Very much the environment in which you must imagine the scenes in Schleswig-Holstein nobility's enfant terrible Elisabeth Gräfin von Plessen's anti-nobility book "Mitteilungen an den Adel" (Message to the Nobility)!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 07, 2010, 04:55:22 PM
after Schleswig-Holstein became Danish
God, as much as I wish it was that way, that was a typo and I meant Prussian!
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 07, 2010, 06:24:03 PM
Well,as Clementine Metternich's husband was himself an Austrian General-Mayor and Chamberlain and his family was of German origin I thought that this "von" should be used and in genealogy sites I looked it is also said "von Blome"...


http://genealogy.euweb.cz/russia/skavron.html


Please tell me,but is this incorrect or just not hearable for Danish titled nobility of German origin...I mean were they allowed to be "von" or just  they didn't want in Denmark because sometimes they were listed as "von" and sometimes without...
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 08, 2010, 12:35:40 AM
Dear, Marc!

You are quite correct in giving the Blomes their due "von" in the German fashion!

I just wanted to share an idiosyncracy of the little-known Scandinavian nobility. I don't know if it was because they wanted to imitate the old Danish medieval nobility, like the Rosenkrantzes, Krabbes, Geddes, Juels, Bjelkes, Gřyes, Lunges, Friises, etc. who never used a "von" (indeed it would have be ridiculous, as they usually were named after their armorial bearingss, not places) or if it was to distance themselves from the lower nobility, who often were ennobled by adding a von (e.g. Von Jenssen etc.), but the titled families themselves, like the Ahlefeldts, Bernstorffs, Wedells, Moltkes, Reventlows etc. usually dropped the "von", which they usually were entitled to, as they all were Germans. The equites originarii of Schleswig-Holstein, like the Rantzaus, Brockdorffs, Blomes etc. are often referred to without "von" in the Danish fashion, especially if they also were titled.

In Sweden, on the other hand, more titled families did sport a "von", e.g. Counts von Rosen, Counts von Essen, Barons von Blixen-Finecke etc. Perhaps this was due to more Swedish noble names being "invented armorially derived surnames" like the medieval ones above. Since the ennobled persons often were military men, they often featured miliary elements: One such was Pistolekors (meaning Pistol Cross, the arms featuring two crossed guns), which in the Germanophone Baltic Provinces became the Von Pistohlkors familiar to Romanov fans. In Sweden you have, also in the modern era, many titled families with medieval, native names and they never use a "von": E.g. the Counts Bonde, Counts Brahe, Counts Sparre, Counts Stenbock etc.

I know this sounds frightfully confusing, but I think this makes the Scandinavian nobility sound cooler than the boring, endememic Germans Von Diesburg, Von Dasberg. At least untill you get down to the Schweinheim genannt von Sackpfeife layer of the German nobility!

BTW the "von" is firmly entrenched in the Scandinavian imagination as the quintessence of (lower, ennobled) nobility, e.g. Uncle Scrooge in Donald Duck is called Joakim von And / Joakim von Anka (= von Duck) in both Danish and Swedish! :-)
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on March 08, 2010, 08:22:58 AM
So,this was the case...yes,it's quite confusing for someone who can see that it's a German noble family but not knowing that this family resides in Sweden,Denmark etc. and wants to incorporate in Scandinavian system.Thank you for clarifying that...

I think that even that could be the case with Metternich family...they almost never used "von" Metternich,but just "zu" when referring Beilstein as a part of Metternich-Winneburg "zu" Beilstein...have they ever used "von Metternich" like many other German and Austrian families?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 14, 2010, 08:59:42 PM
Does anybody know why on earth Prince Metternich's illegitimate son Roger Armand Victor Maurice (1827 - 1906) with the Duchess of Castries (née de Maillé de la Tour Landry) was ennobled in Austria as Baron of Aldenburg, when Aldenburg was a morganatic sideline of the Counts of Oldenburg (later Aldenburg-Bentinck)?
Title: Re: Metternich - Winneberg
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2012, 04:27:12 PM
Countess Pascalina Antoinette Metternich,Countess von Waldstein-Wartenberg:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Waldstein-Metternich.jpg)