Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Russian Antiques => Topic started by: DoubleEagle on February 21, 2006, 01:12:01 PM

Title: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on February 21, 2006, 01:12:01 PM
Many of us own small unimportant items which may be of no material value, however, the items are now in our care.   We've been told the items came with grandma or our great great uncle or some other member of the family  when they left Russia.  So,  I'd like to create this thread for a place to show and discuss what we have.  Maybe, some of our treasured items  didn't come from Russia but we'll find out and learn a lot along the way.

I'll start with this item:
(http:// http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/DoubleRussEagle/DoubleEagle3.jpg)

I've taken it to the jewelers and they tell me it is old and the jewels are real.

Since my grandparents came from Russia before WWI,  I assume it was made before 1913 in Russia.

That is about all I know.

DoubleEagle
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: PeterB on February 26, 2006, 03:17:31 PM
This is possible a jeton?!
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: Forum Admin on February 26, 2006, 05:36:34 PM
It looks more like a watch fob.
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: PeterB on February 27, 2006, 01:55:08 PM
Yes, it's possible to the was a watch fob!

Can you not making a better picture of the object?

Peter
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 27, 2006, 07:46:47 PM
It may be a watch fob but one would need to see the entire piece not just the most decorative part of the object. It is definitely not a jeton for service or membership as the eagle is not a proper tsarist form.

The hallmarks if any would tell much.

David
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on February 28, 2006, 09:53:04 AM
The actual size of the piece  is a little more than 1 1/4 inches wide and 1 3/4 inches in height without the top nob but with  the top nob and diamond studded  loop where I have the gold chain going through is an added 1/4  inch

There are good quality diamonds and rubies.


(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/DoubleRussEagle/EagleNeck2.jpg)

Actual size shown above.

(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/DoubleRussEagle/DoubleEagle2Sm.jpg)

DoubleEagle
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: Forum Admin on February 28, 2006, 10:00:04 AM
Real gold and genuine stones don't always mean a piece is authentic. As David said, the hallmarks will be of great value. I'm curious why you disregarded that question, and still only show the front of the piece when the back side and markings are equally important to answer your questions.
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on March 01, 2006, 10:37:06 AM
Forum Admin,

My goodness, I haven't "disregarded" anyone's request.  Why would I?

And,  I'm not sure what you mean by being "authentic.  I assume it was a piece of jewelry purchased before my grandparents came to the USA.  To me, it looks Russian.  My grandfather  could have purchased it for himself as a watch fob as suggested and then later it was turned into a necklase.  I have no idea.


Someone asked me to give the demension in the message box so I did. His request came first.

When I have time today,  I will post the backside of the piece, as requested by David_Pritchard and yourself.  

DoubleEagle

Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on March 01, 2006, 11:02:09 AM
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/DoubleRussEagle/EagleNecBack.jpg)

I see no marks on the backside of this piece.

There may have been something on the gold part of the clasp but that has been worn away and probably has to do with that part and not the lower part with the eagle.

DoubleEagle
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 01, 2006, 11:34:54 AM
It's interesting. the back looks a little bit crude though  ???
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: Forum Admin on March 01, 2006, 11:38:04 AM
I'm disturbed by the fact that the rivets holding the eagle on show through. No quality maker would have done that. I agree that the back is far too crude. A red flag also goes up when there is no purity control stamp, especially for a gold piece. I have serious reservations about the authenticity.
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: David_Pritchard on March 01, 2006, 12:20:39 PM
I find it odd and unusual that a possible Russian piece of enamelwork is coated with enamel on the reverse of the piece like the underside of a 1920's Chinese cloisonné bowl. The rivets piercing the enameled reverse are very un-Russian on a such a piece. Could your grandparents have left Russia via Harbin, China as so many Russians did? The piece could have been made there to sell to Russian emigrés.

If the piece was made in pre-1917 Russia it would bear a government assayer's mark at the minimum. That there is no assayer's mark is the strongest proof that the piece was not made in Imperial Russia.

David

Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on March 01, 2006, 05:59:08 PM
My grandfather was in Manchuria and possible China before 1904.  I recall a story that he bought my grandmother jade earrings in Manchuria but I don't recall any stories about the  necklace.

Sorry, I wish I knew more.

DoubleEagle



Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: PeterB on March 01, 2006, 11:31:32 PM
Quote
I'm disturbed by the fact that the rivets holding the eagle on show through. No quality maker would have done that. I agree that the back is far too crude. A red flag also goes up when there is no purity control stamp, especially for a gold piece. I have serious reservations about the authenticity.


Dear DoubleEagle,

I'm sorry but I must be agree with Forum Admin., but this maybe two red flags goues up, one for control stamp and the secound was for that appearance of behind of the work, because Russian is farmous for theres piece of enamelwork and all quality maker would not have done that.

Peter
Title: Re: Looking For Answers On Russ Items We Own
Post by: DoubleEagle on April 10, 2006, 12:24:24 PM
Sorry for taking so long to get back to all of you about this piece.  I made a lot of phone calls to track down relatives who might know about this family piece.  And,  this is what seems to be the story behind it.  We had a great uncle who was an Colonel in the Tsar's Army.  He was often asked to buy jewlery for various family members.  This particular piece was considered "costume" jewlery and was purchase in Moscow around the time known as "Bloody Sunday" so that was in 1905.  The piece was given to someone in the family but I don't think it was originaly  given to my grandmother, however, before my grandparents left Russia, this piece of jewelry was given to my grandmother.

I asked if anyone knew why the rivets were showing.  Evidently, my grandmother was wearing it and because she had nervous fingers, her finger nails scratched off the enamel.  Evidently,  they were carrying false passports and not on a honeymoon at all but migrating.

From what I can find, there is evidence that this great uncle was in Moscow in 1905.

According to several experts I found in San Francsco,  this piece is pre-revolutionary, made in Imperial Russia and was not made my any important jewler.  However, the fake jewels were replaced by very real and expensive jewels which could have been sold individually as needed.

The value of the jewels in todays market is about $3,000.

They also carried a clock which appeared to be an expensive clock but it was actually more expensive than it appeared.  It was bearing a great deal of gold underneath it's exterior.  It also had secret compartments filled with uncut rubies and diamonds.  After my grandparents arrived in the USA they were to contact a person in New Jersey. The clock was expected, the value was already known, USA dollars were given in exchange, this money was placed in my grandfather's "money belt".  The rest is family history.

Double Eagle