Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: polignac on February 24, 2006, 02:26:20 PM

Title: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: polignac on February 24, 2006, 02:26:20 PM
I would like more about the duchesse of Maine..The only thing I know about her is what is in wikipedia...and th information isn't great...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne%2C_Duchess_of_Maine
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: polignac on February 24, 2006, 02:29:42 PM
she married Louis XIV bastard son, the Duc de Maine..

http://genealogia.netopia.pt/pessoas/pes_show.php?id=14934
it's a portuguese site..
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Sissi on February 24, 2006, 03:14:34 PM
I read that sdhe was called Benedicte after her aunt Benedicte de Baviere Duchess of Braunschweic.She was very small she had a fine face but ugly teeth. She despised her husband since Maine had only a rank od Duke and she was herself a princess of blood, I also red that she creted a sort of order which i think was the order of the honey bee!!!!!  :o

And as it says in Wikidia she also took part on the conspiracies organised by the Cardinal of Polignac against the Regent. The principle was to put Philippe V of Spain on the throne of France and the Duc du Maine regent in his absence.  
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Sissi on February 24, 2006, 03:17:04 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/alm.gif)

A tiny picture!
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: palatine on February 24, 2006, 04:02:50 PM
Anne-Louise-Benedicte was named after her mother.  Her father, Henri Jules de Bourbon-Conde, was mentally ill and violent.  


Louise was chosen to marry the Duke of Maine because of her rank and because she was an inch taller than her sisters, all of whom were very short.  Liselotte, Duchess of Orleans, claimed that Louise as an adult was barely as tall as a ten year old child.

Louise was very intelligent and studied subjects that were considered the province of men, such as math, science and Descartes' philosophy.  She hated life at Versailles; after her marriage she held a court of her own at her country estate, where she had a private theater and other amusements.  She had a poor relationship with her weak-willed husband, and she regularly cheated on him.  Louise had a very bad temper which frightened him and made him give way to her in all things.  

Louise's maternal grandmother, Anne de Gonzague, had been one of the most politically important and astute women of her day.  Louise wanted to emulate her grandmother and achieve political power herself.  She hoped to make her husband the Regent of France after the death of Louis XIV, but she was thwarted by Philippe of Orleans, who became Regent instead.  She became involved in plots to assassinate Philippe and install the King of Spain as the titular Regent and her husband as the acting Regent.  Her schemes failed, and she was arrested.  Her husband was arrested too, although he had no idea what she'd been doing.  In time, both were pardoned and they officially reconciled, but they spent little time together or at court.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Yseult on November 17, 2006, 12:44:31 PM
This thread is focused on the illegitimate daughters of Louis XIV who survived childhood:

-Marie Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1666, daughter of Louise de La Vallière. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Louis Armand I de Bourbon-Conti, prince of Conti

-Louise-Françoise de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Nantes: born in 1673, daughter of Athenaïs de Montespan. Mademoiselle de Nantes was married to Louis III de Bourbon-Condé, duke of Bourbon and prince of Condé.

-Françoise Marie de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1677, daughter of Athenaïs de Montespan. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Philippe d´Orleans, duke of Chartres and later Regent of the Reign.

The three ladies were interesting women:

                                                               Marie Anne de Bourbon, princess Conti

Marie Anne, Mademoiselle de Blois, was born in october 1666 at Vicennes. Her father recognized her in letters-patent whick were published in may 1667: Marie Anne was granted with the tittle of Mmlle of Blois, while the mother, Louise de La Vallière, received the dukedom of Vaujours. Just four months later, Louise gave birth to a son, brother of little Marie Anne. At this time, the king had a relationship with Athenaïs, Madame de Montespan. Poor Louise shared the apartments at the Tuileries with Athenaïs until she was tired of her situation. Marie Anne was just four years old when her mother tried to run away from the king, fleeing to the convent of Sainte Marie de Chaillot. But Louise was compelled to return to the royal palace. Three years later, when Marie Anne was aged seven, Louise was finally allowed to enter a Carmelite convent, where she became a nun.

Marie Anne had only thirteen years when she was married to Louis Armand of Bourbon-Contin, aged fifteen. For the first time, a prince of blood (Louis Armand) took as his wife a illegitimate daughter of a king (Marie Anne). Sadly enough, the couple had a catastrophic wedding´s night and the husband never shared the bed of Marie Anne after this. They had not children. In 1685, Marie Anne survived from smallpox, but her husband contracted the smallpox and was dead in five days. Marie Anne was a widow until her own death. She was a beautiful woman, her father loved her so much but she often was involved in quarrels with her half-sisters, Mmlle de Nantes and Mmlle de Blois.

Portraits:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MarieAnnedeBourbon.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MarieAnneMademoiselledeBlois.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MarieAnnedeBourbonprincessContidaug.jpg)




Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Yseult on November 17, 2006, 01:44:17 PM
                        Louise Françoise de Bourbon, princess Condé, and Françoise Marie de Bourbon, duchess of Chartres

Louise Françoise was born in 1673 at Tournai. Françoise Marie was born in 1677. The two were daughters of Athenaïs de Montespan. Their upbringing was entrusted to Françoise Scarron, later madame of Maintenon, later second morganatic wife of their father the king. By the way, the two sisters hated Françoise Scarron, specially Louise Françoise, who always was the favourite children of their mother Athenaïs.

In 1677, when Louise had four years (their parents surnamed her "poupotte" because she seemed a pretty doll) and Françoise was just a baby, Athenaïs was involved in the famous scandal of the Poissons. I don´t know how much impressed were the children with this poisoning and whitcraft episode.

Louise was married aged twelve to Louis, aged seventeen...a son Henri Jules by his wife Anne of Bavaria, and, through his father, a grand-son of the Grand Condé. This was an uncessful marriage, although they had eight children. Louise felt neglected by his husband and it is said she had a liaison with the prince François Louis de Bourbon-Conti, probably the real father of her daughter Marie Anne.

Portraits:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadamedeNantesIII.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/MadamedeNantesII.jpg)

Françoise was married, with a dowry of two million francs, to her cousin Philippe d´Orleans. The mother of the groom, Liselotte, was annoyed with this "mésalliance", and the groom, himself, surnamed his bride "Madame Lucifer". The marriage was not happy, but they had seven children.

Portraits:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/vanozzacatanei/FranoiseMademoiselleBlois.jpg)




Françoise, the second Mmlle de Blois,
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: palatine on November 20, 2006, 07:35:15 PM
This thread is focused on the illegitimate daughters of Louis XIV who survived childhood:

-Marie Anne de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Blois: born in 1666, daughter of Louise de La Vallière. Mademoiselle de Blois was married to Louis Armand I de Bourbon-Conti, prince of Conti

Marie Anne, Mademoiselle de Blois, was born in october 1666 at Vicennes. Her father recognized her in letters-patent whick were published in may 1667: Marie Anne was granted with the tittle of Mmlle of Blois, while the mother, Louise de La Vallière, received the dukedom of Vaujours. Just four months later, Louise gave birth to a son, brother of little Marie Anne. At this time, the king had a relationship with Athenaïs, Madame de Montespan. Poor Louise shared the apartments at the Tuileries with Athenaïs until she was tired of her situation. Marie Anne was just four years old when her mother tried to run away from the king, fleeing to the convent of Sainte Marie de Chaillot. But Louise was compelled to return to the royal palace. Three years later, when Marie Anne was aged seven, Louise was finally allowed to enter a Carmelite convent, where she became a nun.

Marie Anne had only thirteen years when she was married to Louis Armand of Bourbon-Contin, aged fifteen. For the first time, a prince of blood (Louis Armand) took as his wife a illegitimate daughter of a king (Marie Anne). Sadly enough, the couple had a catastrophic wedding´s night and the husband never shared the bed of Marie Anne after this. They had not children. In 1685, Marie Anne survived from smallpox, but her husband contracted the smallpox and was dead in five days. Marie Anne was a widow until her own death. She was a beautiful woman, her father loved her so much but she often was involved in quarrels with her half-sisters, Mmlle de Nantes and Mmlle de Blois.

Marie Anne was very close to her half-brother, the Dauphin, so much so that she facilitated an affair he had with one of her ladies-in-waiting, Mademoiselle de Chouin.  She seems to have clung to the Dauphin and to their father, perhaps because her mother, Louise de la Valliere, had abandoned her when she was very young to join a convent.  She rarely visited her, probably because of abandonment issues and because Louise looked upon her relationship with Louis XIV (and possibly the children she’d had with him) as a terrible mistake that she needed to do penance for.  Marie Anne’s brother, Louis, Comte de Vermandois, was the black sheep of the illegitimate children.  Their father was aghast when he discovered that Vermandois was homosexual and had little to do with him thereafter.  Vermandois died when he was sixteen or so, which must have hurt her deeply. 
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Sir Ralph of Stradbrooke on October 07, 2007, 12:16:01 AM
Does anyone have a thorough list of all the illegitimate children of Napoleon I? Everybody knows about Count Leon and Alexandre Walewski, but I've seen some speculations in old books, though I don;t know where I jotted them down.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 07, 2007, 05:05:51 AM
As you already mentioned, the most secure children of Napoleon are Reichstadt and Walewski. There are no doubts on Walewski, I would say, not only because his mother visited Napoleon on Elba with their son etc etc. Count Walewski was not only very similar in his looks to Napoleon, he did also have the same voice. On a special occasion (funeral), where Walewski was speaking an old general of the dead emperor broke down with the words: "I would never have thought to hear that voice again!" That explains everything I guess..Despite of the clear fact that Walewski was Napoleons son, he never liked to tell openly about it, obviously to save his mothers fame. One day somebody told him about his similarity to his father Napoleon and count Walewski shall have answered: "Oh, I didn't know that you knew the count Walewski that well!" (He ment his mothers first husband with that!)
I don't what, how exactly it was, but Napoleon also supported him with money, and he inheritated also things of Napoleon. The todays descendants still have a lot of napoleonic things at home...
Even the count Léon is said to be surely Napoléon son, even when his mother Eleonore Denuelle was the lover of Murat as well, and so also Murat could have been his father. At the court of Napoleon III he was often supported with money, but as he was a player, he often lost money and got knew new one again by his cousin Napoleon III and his brother Walewski. He was rather considered only as similar to Napoleon from the looking, but not in his character (he was not such a military genius for example, the same with Walewski).
On the tomb stone of the last count Léon (1911-1994) there is clearly mentioned that he is the great- grandson of Napoleon, but who knows the truth....


The other speculated children are the following:


* Émilie Louise Marie Françoise Joséphine Pellapra von Françoise-Marie LeRoy

*Karl Eugin von Mühlfeld von Victoria Kraus

*Hélène Napoleone Bonaparte (1816–1910) von Gräfin Montholon

* Jules Barthélemy-Saint-Hilaire (1805–1895)


But one has to be very careful with it:


1) The Pellapra story is not proved and by many historians rather considered as pure fiction, many hold the opinion that this lady was making up famous ancestry for herself. Especially because there is no proof at all that her mother was really having an intimate relation to Napoleon at the time, when she became pregant. So she will rather be from her mothers husband, I would say, but not Napoleon's daughter.

2) The Victoria Krauss story is something completely unknown to me. I tried to find out more about an alleged illegitimate son of Napoleon by that austrian lady, but I could't. Until now I only found the dates and not more. It would be wonderful, if someone might know more about the backgound of that. On a website in the net I read that somebody wanted to name further sources, but I didn't find it anymore. So until now I don't have any further details...Help is welcome!

3) The thing with Helene is speculation as well, as far as I know. It is connected with the murder theory of Napoleon (in which I do not believe in any way)

4) This is also someting quite strange.  St. Hilaire shall have written in an own biography that he knew that Napoleon was his father, but he does not name his mother. He also told that both shall have been ashamed to talk about it openly and so on. I don't know what to think about it, i personally do not believe that Napoleon was St. Hilaires father, because there are too little facts.


Apart from those I did not find any other speculated children of Napoleon, but if you could find the book, and there might be others as well, I would be interested.

I had a recent contact with a german historian and genealogist, who is working at a complete genealogy on Napoleon and all his alleged children. and even about the bastards and alleged bastards of the brothers. etc  I'll write to him again to ask, when his book will be published. I suppose it will be very interesting, because the man is a very good & well known genealogist,  able to lead back all famous and not famous families to people like Karl the Great and so on...!


Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 07, 2007, 10:07:42 AM
Quote
In 1955 the diaries of Louis Marchand, Napoléon's valet, appeared in print. He describes Napoléon in the months leading up to his death, and led many, most notably Sten Forshufvud and Ben Weider, to conclude that he had been killed by arsenic poisoning. Arsenic was at the time sometimes used as a poison undetectable when administered over a long period of time. In 2001 Pascal Kintz, of the Strasbourg Forensic Institute in France, added credence to this claim with a study of arsenic levels found in a lock of Napoléon's hair preserved after his death, with seven to thirty-eight times normal levels.

Cutting up hairs into short segments and analysing each segment individually provides a histogram of arsenic concentration in the body. This analysis on hair from Napoléon suggests that large but non-lethal doses were absorbed at random intervals. The arsenic severely weakened Napoléon and stayed in his system. There, it could react with calomel- and mercury-based compounds -- common medicines at the time -- which would be the immediate cause of his death.
Quote
www.biographybase.com/biography/Napoleon.html

I was surprised to read this...about the Arsenic!  I wonder if the Memoirs of that Valet would contain information about the Natural Children of Napoleon.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 07, 2007, 01:18:25 PM
I think we already have the poisoning theory discussed a bit in the topic on Napoleon in general. I personally do not share the opinion of Ben Weider's book, even when I did not read the whole book. I think there's no proof that Napoleon had died of any arsenic poisoning. Recent investigations have rather supported the "old knowlege", which means that Napoleon had an ulcer, which became cancer with the time. It was already of common knowlege that Napoleon died of stomach cancer since many years, but generally it was thougt that it was the same kind like his father Carlo Maria and some other members of the napoleonic family. Recent examinations proved it was an infection with the well- known Helicobacter, which caused an ulcer, which, also as a consequence of Napoleon's living- and eating orders, became cancer, which let him die. There were different symptoms leading to the diagnosis, especially the losing of weight, the repeated vomiting and other things like that.
The arsenic theory is only a theory, but no murder of Napoleon is proved. That's not only my personal opinion...

Back to the bastards: It's a pity that literature on the illegitimate children of Napoleon is rather rare. I wished there were more. Especially also translated in German or English. Does anybody know good literature on the subject? On Walewski there is the book "Walewski- fils de Napoleon" by Philippe Poirson. As I don't know french, I haven't read it until now, but it must be interesting, mine is quite old- from the fourtees!!!
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Sprocket on October 07, 2007, 05:07:12 PM
I've studied Napoleonic (well primarily the First Empire and the Bonapartes of that generation--Not the Second Empire as much and Napoleon III) for roughly seventeen years now, which seems impossible! Anyway, I've read Marchand's memoirs and I'm not entirely sure if there is exact proof he mentions for poisoning, but if anything he detailed Napoleon's decline and symptoms well enough to I guess raise question with certain theories. I am not sure where I stand on the poisoning theory, from my years of study, I'd say that there was definitely questionable things surrounding Napoleon's death. I've heard it ascribed from everything to poison, poisoned wallpaper, cancer, and even liver disease. I don't know if there will actually ever be a very definitive answer on that, and that's probably the appeal of it also. The "great" mystery.

But as to the children:

I personally know that the most common and widely accepted are Walweski and Count Leon. However, I do know some who strongly believe Pellapra and Helene were also his daughters. I haven't really seen a lot of information on Pellapra, so that was really interesting to read there that there may be some speculation that this was invention. It never seemed legit to me just because Napoleon's mistresses were somewhat well documented. And this Pellapra seems to appear out of nowhere. And as for the other two, I had never come across them before.

I do have one book  Napoleon's Children by the author Susan Normington. In there she boils it down to three children...Walweski, Count Leon and Pellapra. It's rather interesting, I'll have to go back and take a look at it. It's mainly about the beginnings of the Second Empire. So the step children, Eugene and Hortense, are talked about as well.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 08, 2007, 12:32:14 AM
I found this on Pellapra:

Quote
the beauty which she held so dear was inherited from her real Father
Quote

A Daughter of Napoleon: Memoirs of Emilie de Pellapra, Comtesse de Brigode by Emilie de Pellapra de Riquet Chimay

http://books.google.com/books?id=Z7AEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=emilie+louise+pellapra+natural+daughter+of+napoleon+i&source=web&ots=n8iGmFDyB8&sig=IgTOsoRQ0FFhvB-2nbxSN_m-Y8k#PPA11,M1


Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 08, 2007, 04:33:50 AM
Hello Mari,

Where did you find the first quotation?

I don't know, but I have read that some state that P. was not similar to Napoleon, but to his sister Pauline.

Yes, The book you't have mentioned is the one, which P. wrote herself and stated to be Napoleon's daughter. But I've read that there is no proof that her mother was together with Napoleon at that "special" time. Many rather tend to say that  she was making up famous ancestry for herself.

I think, only the book, which was mentioned by Sprocket, takes the P.-story serious, but I can be wrong. I did't read it until now and maybe it could be a good lecture...
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 09, 2007, 12:01:53 AM
That quotation is from the book that I cited below it.   I gave the title below the quote  and a way to look at it on google books. Supposedly Pellagra looked like Napoleon but there is a lot of information about her life and her Mother.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 09, 2007, 01:46:50 AM
Oh yes, now I have seen it. Did you read the full book? Which impression do you have?
Does she state that her mother told her that Nap. was her father or something?

Thank you. I'll look for the book...
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 10, 2007, 01:50:51 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/prefpella12ok1.jpg)


I've found hat picture of Emilie on the net. Maybe anyone knows it. My impression is not that there is any similariy neither to Napoleon himself nor to any other Bonaparte members, even not to his sister Pauline, as it was stated. What do others think? Are there more pics of her?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Sprocket on October 10, 2007, 02:15:31 AM
I have seen a few pictures of her and I have a few in my books. Right now my scanner is down, but I can scan them in when it's back and running.

To me she looks a lot like her mother.

According to the book I have...the one I mentioned in a previous post here is the big intro of Pellapra:

"Caroline immediately sent the news to Napoleon by courier. Nobody, however, seems to have informed him of the birth of his other child, which had occurred in Lyons on 11 November. The mother was Francoise-Marie-Emilie Pellapra, the pretty scatterbrain whom he had met in Lyons in the spring of 1805 and who had eagerly followed him to Paris to be seduced in an alcove adjoining his map-room in the Tuileries. She was slim and attractive, dark-haired and blue-eyed, married to a dour minor government official who was far from appreciating the honor conferred on his wife by the Emperor. Later, when Napoleon heard of the birth and rewarded the cuckolded husband with a post as tax collector, Alain Pellapra relented a little, but his first instinct was to deny paternity of the child. After sending Francoise back to her native Lyons for the birth, he insisted on the child being left there with his mother-in-law, Madame Louise Leroy. The baby girl was given a mixture of her mother's names, her grandmother's and that of Napoleon's deceived wife, for it was still popular to name children after Our Lady of Victories, the gracious Josephine, and Madame Pellapra was giddy-minded enough not to see anything odd in it. For most of the next four years little Emilie-Louise-Marie-Francoise-Josephine stayed in the Leroy apartment in the center of Lyons. From the balcony she could peep across the plain of Les Brotteaux, the scene of some of the most hideous atrocities of the Revolution. Day by day her cheeks plumped into an Italian chubbiness, her small nose gently curved into a budgerigar beak. There could be no doubt she was a Bonaparte."

Well...I don't know. She doesn't resemble the Bonaparte's that much. And really? An alcove of a map-room?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on October 10, 2007, 04:00:59 AM
Thanks for the interesting part of the book. Yes, I would be interested in seeing more pictures of her, even when the story seems strange to me. I once read that there was no proof that she really net Napoleon intimately in the year 1805 as it was stated here, so I don't know what to think. Stories like that always make me crazy, I have different other cases (not concerning Napoleon) where I think everyday, is it true or not etc.
So Napoleon must have known the child as well? Are they also pictures of her offcial father, the husband of her mother? Concerning the mentioned Bonaparte nose, I cannot recognize it on the picture... ::) But maybe on the others. Strange; I never found portraits on her or her mother. I really wonder, if they were together or not.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 13, 2007, 09:31:00 AM
http://www.usc.edu/programs/cst/deadfiles/lacasis/ansc100/library/images/101.html

take a look at this image of Napoleon and see if it doesn't look like Pellapra around the  nose, mouth and chin.

 Alain Pellapra certainly believed that his wife had a Child by Napoleon. He had the Child left with her Grandmother till she was four and He appears to have been less than cordial to her and her Mother the rest of their lives. Francoise-Marie-Emilie Pellapra, had items that Napoleon had given her as gifts. I am still scanning the Book with the link I gave.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on November 07, 2007, 02:53:06 AM
Has the one, who one told it, maybe found more pics of Pellapra in between? As I only know the posted one, I would be thankful so see more. However it still seems more speculation to me that story...
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Marc on November 13, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
Hi,I would like to know why so little is known about Laura Mancini,while we know so much about her famous sisters?Plenty of portraits of her family and yet none of her...she still married rather well,a Bourbon,so something more schould be known about her...
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on November 16, 2007, 04:08:20 AM
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portail%3AFrance_du_Grand_Si%25C3%25A8cle&hl=en&langpair=fr|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8

She died at 21 and this may explain the lack of Paintings. However all the Sisters were considered Beauties. Laura was a brunette with a handsome face!

http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/Aff--CONF/CTID--685781756/RFID--504682/TKID--0/pd--12263265/posters.htm       Three of the Sisters painted ......


Description of the Mancini Sisters: google book five fair Sisters: an Italian Episode at the Court of Louis XIV
http://books.google.com/books?id=47kvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=paintings+of+the+nieces+of+cardinal+mazarin&source=web&ots=ZgjVhtJbUq&sig=5dk7kE1hFWik8j2qwUxA5f_fgqs



Laura Mancini (1636 - 1657) was The oldest of the five Mancini sisters, nieces of cardinal Mazarin. She was also mother of the great general Louis Joseph, duc de Vendôme, and aunt of his famous opponent Eugene of Savoy.
#

Marie Anne Mancini (Rome, 1649 - Paris 1714), niece of Cardinal Mazarin, was the youngest of the five Mancini sisters. Her sisters were Laura, Olympia, Marie and Hortense.
#

Ortensia or Hortense Mancini, Duchess of Mazarin 1699), was the niece of Cardinal Mazarin and a mistress of Charles II. At age 15 she married Armand-Charles de la Meilleraye, one of the richest men of the time.
#

Olimpia Mancini, (1639 —1708) an Italian noblewoman, was one of the five daughters of Geronima, a sister of Cardinal Mazarin. She was also the mother of the famous general Prince Eugene of Savoy.

Olympia was accused in 1679 in the Poison affair, a murder scandal in France during the reign of King Louis XIV. She is said to have plotted with La Voisin to poison Louise de La Vallière.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on February 13, 2008, 03:15:56 AM
I have now ordered the book "Napoleon's children" by Susan Normington, as we had mentioned before, and I'm going to post some interesting pictures, which I have found here.

There are two on Napoleon's alleged mistress, Francoise Pellapra, one when being younger and one when being older:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0058.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0059.jpg)


And two of her daughter, who might be of Napoleon or not, Emilie:

When a baby:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0060.jpg)

And when an adult:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0057.jpg)


I haven't read the book yet, as I just got it some days ago, but it seems that Normington supports the the thesis that Emilie was the only daughter of Napoleon, fruit from a Liaison of her mother with Napoleon in 1805 (Emilie was born in 1806)

However many other authors and historians have reasonable doubts on that point that he they could have been together in 1805 in Lyon, where the relationship was reported to have taken place, as Napoleon was in Italy at that time for being crowned as king there, when the child was "made". Many say that they did not meet until the year 1910. So the story remaines strange and discussed.

From the pictures it is hard to say. It seems that Emilie was much similar to her mother, as it was already mentioned here. Only on the child picture she might resemble Napoleon a bit, especially the "heavy" head and the eyes a bit, too.  But it stays speculation. A pity.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on February 13, 2008, 05:56:14 AM
Yes, I agree the baby picture does resemble Napoleon to me also. Yes, it will be left to to the Historian as they write each Book. Some will lean toward Yes and some No that She was his daughter. Very interesting though.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on April 25, 2008, 12:37:54 PM
Hello, I would like some infos about Charlotte Mademoiselle d'Issoudun (1808-1886), daughter of HRH the duke of Berry. She was married by her step-mother Carolina to Prince of Faucigny-Lucinge after her father's murder. I know that her somptuous trousseau was admirated by many parisians at that time. (I remembered this details from book of alain decaux the duchess of berry, I think
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on April 25, 2008, 12:43:20 PM
2nd part

well I would like to know if Mademoiselle kept strong ties with her siblings Mademoiselle & Henri V. Did they visit each others? Or write to each other?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on April 28, 2008, 05:00:34 AM
Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun was born on 13 July 1808 at London, England.1 She was the daughter of Charles Ferdinand de Bourbon, Duc de Berri and Amy Brown.1 She married Ferdinand Victor Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, 1st Prince de Lucinge, son of Louis Charles Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, Comte et Marquis de Coligny and Judith Pauline Zoé de Bernard de Sasseney, on 8 October 1823 at Paris, France.1 She died on 13 July 1886 at age 78 at Paris, France.1
     Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun was created Comtesse d'Issoudun [France] on 10 June 1820, by King Louis XVIII.1 From 8 October 1823, her married name became de Faucigny-Lucinge.
Children of Charlotte Marie Augustine de Bourbon, Comtesse d'Issoudun and Ferdinand Victor Amédée de Faucigny-Lucinge, 1st Prince de Lucinge

    * Prince Charles Marie de Faucigny-Lucinge et Coligny+ b. 17 Aug 1824, d. 11 Mar 1910
    * Louis de Faucigny-Lucinge+ b. 24 Jan 1828, d. 24 Jan 1907
    * Henri de Faucigny-Lucinge+ b. 26 Nov 1831, d. 19 Apr 1899
    * Marguerite de Faucigny-Lucinge b. 9 Apr 1833, d. 21 Jan 1922
    * Rene de Faucigny-Lucinge b. 4 Nov 1841, d. 30 Mar 1911  from the Peerage.com


Citations

   1. [S36] Hugh Montgomery-Massingberd, editor, Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume 1: Europe & Latin America (London, U.K.: Burke's Peerage Ltd, 1977), page 90. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume 1.


She and her Sister were naturalized on the same day!

http://books.google.com/books?id=LHKBWAz9MMQC&pg=RA1-PA274&dq=Charlotte+Marie+augustine+de+Bourbon+1808&ei=Up0VSKHIA4iWzATHlpCHCA&sig=dSD2YNEuAwfrgiYoEEa_uKZktGI

Perhaps someone else has access to Correspondence of hers....

Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on May 03, 2008, 05:21:34 AM
thank you !

according to the names of her children & their dates of biths, some should have The Duchess of Berry as a godmother ....maybe her first son Charles
Her son Henri has probably The count of Chambord as godfather
so the Princess of Faucigny-Lucinge should still have contacts with them at that times...
that's my hypothese
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on May 03, 2008, 05:25:02 AM
hey it's me again about The second daughter of HRH the Duke of Berry

How many children did she have?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Tybalt on May 03, 2008, 09:58:15 AM
hello!
  I suppose you 'rre speaking about charles of artois, duke of berry (1778+1820), he had 2 daughters from Amy Brown (april 8th 1783-Maidstone+may 7th 1876-Couffé-France-) : Charlotte Marie Augustine (july 13th 1808- London+july 13th 1886-Turin) , created countess of Issoudun and married on october the 8th of 1823 in Paris with Ferdinand de Faucigny-Lucinge, prince of Lucinge (september 8th 1789- Versailles+ march 18th 1866- Paris), 5 children and Louise Charlotte Marie(december 19th 1809-London+december 26th 1891-Couffé), created countess of Vierzon and married on june the 16th of 1827 in Paris with Charles Athanase Marin de Charette de La Contrie, baron of La Contrie (january 14th 1796-Saint Donatien-Brittany+march 16th 1848-Couffé), 10 children.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: José on May 03, 2008, 03:18:26 PM
The Countess d'Isoudun was the gr.gr.grand-mother of Anne-Aymone Sauvage de Brantes.
None other than the wife of the former president Valéry Giscard d'Estaing

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=pt;spouse=on;m=RL;i=42099;l1=0;i1=42099;l2=4;i2=42136

From this site you can look for her descendantes as well as her sister Vierzon's
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on May 06, 2008, 07:43:10 AM

The Catholic Encyclopedia does a Biography on one of the sons of the Countess of Vierzon named Charette...click on the link and it is on the page and also mentions his two brothers.

http://books.google.com/books?id=q4IqAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA24&dq=countess+of+Vierzon&ei=x08gSKGqIIWyyQTAuK3WBg
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Norbert on May 07, 2008, 03:09:17 PM
I don't think that members of the Royal family would have stood as god parents to a Princes bastard issue. No matter how well they married. I'd  certainly be very surprised if Henri "V" would have had anything to do with them.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Norbert on May 07, 2008, 03:16:11 PM
interestingly Amy claimed that he was the father of TWO other children. The eldest " John Freeman" 1804-1866 had a son William who Maria Gennara daughter of Prince Luigi of Two Sicilies.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: beladona on May 07, 2008, 03:54:51 PM
Children of countess de vierzon:
Charles Louis 1830-1830
Athanase 1832-1911
Louis-Marie 1834-1919
Henriette 1835-1932
Ferdinand 1837-1917
Urbain 1839-1925
Alain 1841-1916
Armand 1843-1909
Colette 1846-1921
Anne 1847-1909
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on May 08, 2008, 01:57:34 AM
It's strange that Prince Luigi gave his daughter to William Freeman. He knew probably that Freeman was a descendant of HRH the Duke of Berry. All the Bourbon family must have known about it...what do you think about it Norbert?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on May 08, 2008, 02:08:58 AM
Hello Norbert

I had this idea because, in the book of Alain decaux The Duchess of Berry.
 it's said that this princess, when her husband tragically died 1820, she took care of his daughters Charlotte & Louise. The King granted them some titles & the duchess planned a marriage for Charlotte (1823) I remember an anecdote.  Mlle d'Issoudun's trousseau was so wonderful, that it seemed like the same for a Fille de France, exposed in the windows of the store, and made the admiration of parisians at that time.
The Duchess seemed proud of it. That's why I thought Henri V & his sisters were still in contact...Maybe they were more human than we often believe...

Interesting debate :)

When he died Charles told his brother to take care of his daughter Caroline.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on May 08, 2008, 02:36:46 AM
The Duchess of Berry and the Court of Louis XVIII portrays a very kind Duchess of Berry! Click on the link and read page 167 and 168 which claims that "She was a Second Mother to the two girls."

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=FjfRbXJqGGwC&dq=the+duchess+of+berry&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=Xbz8b3A4i9&sig=MXsWfi3HrSi3_bDnhQSNkJ_tI_8#PPA167,M1
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Norbert on May 08, 2008, 04:01:06 AM
I'm sure privately the Duchess would be kind to the girls ( very like Queen Adelaide was with the children of William IV) and lets face it the Duchess was hardly the first to throw stones. But i would be surprised if they had been recognised publicly. Consider the religious background of Henri V  and his court in exile.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Norbert on May 08, 2008, 04:03:40 AM
He must have been convincing eh? But interesting that of the four children only two were recognised . I think we should refer to Remi
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: tecklenburg on May 08, 2008, 04:32:27 AM
Oh yes you're right This court in exile seems to be very religious. For sure Henri V had a strong christian faith. 
But I think their deeply religious image was to please their partisans in France who were mainly catholics...Louis XVIII showed he was tolerant with protestants & Jews in 1814 (in the Charte) and I believe it was the same with The Angouême, Berry & Chambord. They had to accomodate the strong principes their partisans were fans of, with the reality of their feelings.
It's probably the case when they had to carry about Berry's illegitimate children. He was such an hero & looked like so much like Henri IV that the religious aspects stayed behind.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: StevenL on May 08, 2008, 05:38:03 AM
The Duchess of Berry and the Court of Louis XVIII portrays a very kind Duchess of Berry! Click on the link and read page 167 and 168


The rather prolific author quoted at the link above is not a reliable source for accurate historical information.
His many books read like romanticized novels about historical persons, not serious biographical studies.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on May 08, 2008, 10:30:49 PM
Do you have a source for the Biography of this Author? I have found that he wrote The Memoirs of the Empress Marie Louise. From the French of Imbert ... and that he is listed in Chamber's Encyclopedia: A Dictionary of Universal Knowledge as a source for the works of Madame Girardin. He is also listed with these Authors as a leading history of the Second Empire: (see below)

    Among the leading comprehensive histories of the Second Empire include:

    * De la Gorce, Histoire du second empire, (four volumes, Paris, 1885-98), and
    * Taxile Delord, Histoire du second empire, (six volumes, Paris, 1869-76).
    * Bernhard Simson, Ueber die Beziehungen Napoleond III. zu Preussen und Deutschland, (Freiburg, 1882)
    * Adolf Ebeling, Napoleon III. und sein Hof, (Cologne, 1891-94)
    * Thirra, Napoléon III avant l'empire, (Paris, 1895)
    * E. Ollivier, L'Empire libéral, (Paris, 1895-1909)
    * A. L. Imbert de Saint-Amand, Napoleon III at the Height of his Power, (New York, 1900)
    * T. W. Evans, Memoirs of the Second French Empire, (New York, 1905)
    * David Harvey, Paris: Capital of Modernity, (New York: Routledge, 2003)
    * Marie-Clotilde-Elisabeth Louise de Riquet, comtesse de Mercy-Argenteau, The Last Love of an Emperor: reminiscences of the Comtesse Louise de Mercy-Argenteau, née Princesse de Caraman-Chimay, describing her association with the Emperor Napoléon III and the social and political part she played at the close of the Second Empire (Garden City, N.Y., Doubleday, Page & Co., 1926)




 But I would love to learn more about him.... :)
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: StevenL on May 09, 2008, 07:37:58 AM
But I would love to learn more about him.... :)

His dates: 1834-1900. Most of his works form a series, "Women of the French Court." He wrote in general on women of the Valois court, the women of the courts of Louis XIV and Louis XV, but also more specifically about the following women, most of whom are the subject of more than one of his works: Marie Antoinette, Josephine, Marie Louise, the Duchess of Angouleme, the Duchess of Berry, Marie Amélie. He also wrote on the Napoléons and the revolution of 1848.

I am sorry that I sounded a bit harsh about the author's reliability, but there are many of these books in the library I use, and most appear to reflect the author's colorful imagination in his attempt to bring his heriones to life -- a "biographical technique" which I find to be completely goofy.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Norbert on May 09, 2008, 12:00:32 PM
I agree with you, but every generation re-interoperates it's history. Stalin and Mao were seen as  hero's of the people  until recent times.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on May 09, 2008, 01:11:43 PM
Yes, and remember He was writing in the Victorian Era and they tend to sentimentalize. He apparently is still a cited source. It reminds me of the George Bancroft School of thought in the American Revolution... same type of reading.  Thank you for the further information.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: The Prussian on July 13, 2008, 10:06:59 AM
Hello.

I am doing a study of genetics and I'm using the Bourbon-Artois line as one of my topics; as such, I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether there exists any portraits of the various illegitimate children of the French kings and princes?

In particular, I am wondering about the children of Louis XV, as well as Charles, Duc de Berry.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Barry
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: The Prussian on July 18, 2008, 02:33:38 AM
Hmm... no replies.

Well, I'd best show what I've already got.

I use www.geneall.net and Wikipedia as a starting point for my research, and it also has some pictures of the children in question.

Mistress 1: Louise Françoise de la Baume le Blanc, duchesse de la Vallière (1644 - 1710)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_10552.jpg)

Child 1:
Charles de La Baume Le Blanc (1663 - 1665)

Child 2:
Philippe de La Baume Le Blanc (1665 - 1666)

Child 3:
Marie-Anne de Bourbon, mademoiselle de Blois (1666 - 1739)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_10553.jpg)

Child 4:
Louis de Bourbon, comte de Vermandois (1667 - 1683)


Mistress 2: Marie Angélique de Scoraille de Roussille, duchesse de Fontanges (1661 - 1681)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_12254.jpg)

Child 1:
Unnamed infant (1680)


Mistress 3: Claude de Vin (1640 - 1687)

Child 1:
Louise de Maisonblanche (1675 - 1718)


Mistress 4: Françoise Athenais de Rochechouart, marquise de Montespan
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Francois-Athenais_de_Rochechouart.jpg/250px-Francois-Athenais_de_Rochechouart.jpg)

Child 1:
?Unnamed infant (1669 - 1672)

Child 2:
Louis Auguste de Bourbon, duc du Maine (1670 - 1736)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Duc_du_Maine2.jpg/250px-Duc_du_Maine2.jpg)

Child 3:
Louis César de Bourbon, comte de Vexin

Child 4:
Louise Françoise de Bourbon, mademoiselle de Nantes (1673 - 1743)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Louise_francoise_bourbon.jpg/275px-Louise_francoise_bourbon.jpg)

Child 5:
Louise Marie Anne de Bourbon, mademoiselle de Tours (1674 - 1681)

Child 6:
Françoise Marie de Bourbon, mademoiselle de Blois (1677 - 1749)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_4554.jpg)

Child 7:
Louis Alexandre de Bourbon, comte de Toulouse (1678 - 1737)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_4566.jpg)


So that's what I've got on Louis XIV's illegitimate children.


Now for Louis XV's illegitimate children.

Mistress 1: Marie Thérèse Françoise Boisselet

Child 1:
Charles Louis Cadet de Gassicourt (1769 - 1821)


Mistress 2: Lucie-Madeleine d' Estaing (1743 - 1826)

Child 1:
Agnès Lucie Auguste (1761 - 1822)

Child 2:
Aphrodite Lucie d' Auguste (1763 - 1819)


Mistress 3: Jeanne Luisa Tiercelin

Child 1:
Benoît Louis Le Duc (1764 - 1837)


Mistress 4: Catherine Leonor Bernard (1740 - 1769)

Child 1:
Louise Françoise Adélaïde de Saint-Germain (1769 - 1850)


Mistress 5: Anne Couffier de Romans, dame de Meilly-Coulonges (1737 - 1808)

Child 1:
Louis Aimé de Bourbon (1762 - 1787)


Mistress 6: Françoise de Châlus, duchesse de Narbonne-Lara (1734 - 1821)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_18018.jpg)

Child 1:
Louis Marie Jacques Amalric de Narbonne-Lara (1755 - 1813)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_5254.jpg)


Mistress 7: Marie Louise O' Murphy (1734 -1814)

Child 1:
Agathe Louise de Saint-André (1754 - 1774)


Mistress 8: Pauline Félicité de Mailly, mademoiselle de Nesle (1712 - 1741)

Child 1:
Charles Emanuel de Vintmille, marquis de Luc (1741 - 1814)


Mistress 9: ?

Child 1:
Antoine, comte d' Horne (1735 - 1765)

Child 2:
Emilie Adélaide Filleul (1770 - 1802)
(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_77756.jpg)


Mistress 10: Marguerite Cathwerine Haynault (1736 - 1823)

Child 1:
Agnès Louise de Montreuil (1760 - 1837)

Child 2:
Anne Luisa de La Réale (1763 - 1831)


Notable aside - Charles Auguste Joseph, comte de Flahaut, the son of Emilie Adélaide Filleul (Mistress 9, Child 2) appears to have had an affair with Hortense Eugénie Cécile de Beauharnais, the daughter of the Empress Josephine, and supposedly a child was born Charles Auguste Louis Demorny (1811 - 1865).

(http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_79786.jpg) (http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_15507.jpg)
Charles Auguste Joseph, comte de Flahaut AND Hortense Eugénie Cécile de Beauharnais

Can anyone confirm or deny that? And does anyone have a picture of that son?

Thanks,
Barry
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on July 18, 2008, 04:18:34 AM
This is a list of Mistresses of the Kings of France. Perhaps that will help you as you search for illegitimate Children. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_royal_mistresses

   


Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on July 18, 2008, 03:56:14 PM
I found something else that may help!

Quote
Louis XIV had 13 known illegitimate children. Most of those were by either Louise-Françoise de Le Baume Le Blanc, Mademoiselle de La Vallière, or Françoise-Athénaïs de Rochechouart de Mortemar, marquise de Montespan, and those who survived infancy were legitimated.

Louis XV had many mistresses, and at least 15 illegitimate children are known. Only one was legitimated: Louis-Aimé de Bourbon (1762-87), called l'abbé de Bourbon, son of Anne Couffier de Romans (1737-1808). His arms, granted in 1783, were: France differenced by an orle and a riband in bend sinister gules. (Michel Antoine, Le Dur Métier de Roi, 1986, p.299).

Charles-Ferdinand d'Artois, duc de Berry and younger son of the future Charles X, had a long relationship in London with Amy Brown, during the Bourbons' exile. Two daughters came of it; when the duc was assassinated in February 1820 in Paris, he asked on his deathbed to see his former mistress and his children and entrusted them to the royal family, which treated them well. The elder, Charlotte-Marie-Augustine (1808-86), was made comtesse d'Issoudun and married to the prince de Faucigny-Lucinge. The younger, Louise-Marie-Charlotte (1809-91), was made comtesse de Vierzon and married to the Athanase-Charles, baron de Charette (the present (1996) French foreign minister Hervé de Charette is her great-great-grandson). In the legitimization letters, Louis XVIII granted to the two young women the following arms: the comtesse d'Issoudun, Azure a pairle couped between three fleurs-de-lys or, on a chief ingrailed of the second three fleurs-de-lys of the first, the comtesse de Vierzon: Azure a tower inclined argent, on a chief ingrailed or three fleurs-de-lys azure. The ingrailed chief recalls the traditional ingrailed border of Berry (although the duke's arms were different), and the charges both recall the arms of the cities. Note that Issoudun and Vierzon are both cities in the province of Berry.

I don't know if your interested in all of this but here it is anyway!

Gaston d'Orléans had an illegitimate son, Louis bâtard d'Orléans (1628-92), comte de Charny. Philippe II d'Orléans had by Mademoiselle Florence, dancer at the Opera: Charles de Saint-Albin, abbé d'Orléans (1698-1764), legitimized 1708, archbishop of Cambrai. By the comtesse d'Argentan: Jean-Philippe d'Orléans (1702-48), le chevalier d'Orléans, grand-prieur de France, leg. 1706: Orléans an orle and a baton couped in bend sinister argent. Louis-Philippe Id'Orléans had by Mme de Villemomble: Louis-Etienne, comte de Saint-Phar (1759-1825) and Louis-Philippe, comte de Saint-Albin (1761-1829), both legitimized 1815.

There are numerous bastard sons in the Bourbon family. Every duc de Bourbon from Louis I to Jean II included has illegitimate sons. Some names of note are: Hector and Perceval, sons of Louis II (Perceval bore on a bend a semy-de-lys, over all three bends sinister PA). Jean I had Jean, abbot of Cluny (†1485, bore France a bend sinister), and Alexandre among others.

One interesting line is that of the comtes de Roussillon, Charles I, duc de Bourbon had by Jeanne de Bournan Louis bâtard de Bourbon (†1486), legitimated 1463, comte de Roussillon: France a bend sinister raguly gules, his crest was a fish roasting over flames! (PA). he married Jeanne, bâtarde de France, natural daughter of Louis XI: France a bend sinister argent, and had only Charles (†1507 s.p.). But Louis also had a natural son Renaud bâtard de Bourbon (†1483), archbishop of Narbonne: Argent on a bend azure a semy-de-lys or and a fillet in bend gules. He in turn had two natural children, Charles bâtard de Bourbon (†1504), bishop of Clermont and Suzanne, both bearing: Argent on a bend sinister azure a semy-de-lys or and a fillet in bend sinister gules, all within a bordure ingrailed of the last (Suzanne obtained permission to bear the same arms from the duc de Bourbon). Another natural child of Louis was Jeanne, legitimated 1492, whose arms granted in 1490 were: Quarterly argent on a bend sinister azure a bendlet sinister gules between six fleurs-de-lys or, and chequy or and sable.

Jean II, duc de Bourbon had Mathieu bâtard de Bourbon (†1505), seigneur de Botheon, known as "le grand bâtard de Bourbon", who bore Bourbon a bendlet sinister. From him also came the line of Bourbon-Malause bore Argent on a bend azure a semy-de-lys or and a riband in bend gules. The line of Bourbon-Busset bears France a baton couped in bend gules, on a chief argent a cross potent between four crosslets or. Originally the Bourbon-Busset arms were Argent on a pale azure a semy-de-lys or and a bend gules, on a chief Jerusalem.

Jean II de Bourbon, comte de Vendôme, had Louis (†1510), bishop of Avranches: Bourbon-Vendôme a bend sinister raguly.

Louis de Bourbon, comte de Soissons (†1641) had a son Louis-Henri de Bourbon-Soissons, comte de Dunois: France a baton couped in bend sinister and a bordure gules (D'Hozier) whose only daughter by his wife Angélique-Cunégonde de Montmorency-Luxembourg was Louise-Léontine-Jacqueline, married to Charles-Philippe d'Albert, duc de Luynes.

Henri III Jules de Bourbon, prince de Condé, had a daughter Julie de Bourbon (1668-1710), Mademoiselle de Châteaubriant, legitimated, bearing France a baton couped in bend sinister gules; married to Armand de Lesparre de Madaillan (D'Hozier).

The line of Dunois-Longueville comes from Jean (1403-68), comte de Dunois, companion in arms of Jeanne d'Arc, who bore Orléans a bend sinister argent . His son had already changed the arms to Orléans a bend couped argent . It ended with Charles-Paris d'Orléans, duc de Longueville et d'Estouteville (1649-72). An illegitimate line from Longueville is Rothelin, which bore in the 18th c. quarterly or a bend gules (Baden) and or on a pale gules three chevrons of the field (Neuchâtel), overall France a bend sinister couped and a label argent (Orléans-Longueville), although the author of the line, François bâtard de Longueville (†1600) bore Orléans a bend sinister couped argent. Charles d'Angoulême, father of François I, had Jeanne, legitimated in 1501, married to Jean de Longuevic and mother of Jacqueline married to the duc de Montpensier; Madeleine, and Souveraine legitimated in 1521.
Quote

References







http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/roygenea.htm
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: The Prussian on July 21, 2008, 08:03:27 AM
Hi.

Thanks for the response.

The information is interesting, if a little bit confusing (when the discussion of the various coats of arms begins).

One of the more interesting illegitimate children of French royalty (whom I discovered after I began this post) is Charles of Angouleme, the son of Charles IX, one of the last Valois kings (right?).

According to Wikipedia.org, he apparently had sons, but I cannot find any information on that family - can anyone help?





Found at: http://www.corneilledelyon.artvibrations.com/corneilledelyon/artfile1.php

Barry
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: umigon on July 21, 2008, 12:54:24 PM

Hi!

In this page you can see further information on Charles IX's descendants:

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/capet/capet23.html#H2

By the way, the pic you posted shows Charles, Duke of Angouleme, but it's not Charles IX's son, it's Francis I's youngest son, born 1522 and die 1545.

Hope to have helped you!
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: The Prussian on July 25, 2008, 06:59:28 AM
Hello.

Thanks for clarifying that picture, otherwise I would have kept thinking it was Charles IX's illegitimate son.

Further thanks for the information, it's all very good.

My other interest in the illegitimate children of French royalty was whether any of them actually achieved anything? I mean some of them were Dukes, but that was only because their fathers were Kings or Princes.

Did any of them actually make a genuine contribution to history in the way that illegitimates like William the Conqueror, James FitzJames or Don Juan of Austria did?

I can't find one that actually showed any worthwhile skill or talent... perhaps Cesar de Bourbon, son of Henry IV?

Thanks,
Barry
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: susana on December 28, 2008, 09:12:46 PM
IMO Emilie bears resemblance to Napoleon I both as an infant and as a young woman. I apologize not having my source at hand but there was a little girl born to one of the officer's wives on St Helena who had a dead on resemblance to him. Was it Montholon? Sorry I like to have my sources handy but gave this book on the poisoning of Napoleon I to the public library. Won't do that again.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on December 29, 2008, 05:07:05 AM
Yes, I think her name was Helene Montholon. Do you have any pics of her?


This book here is new and I had some contacts to the author, who told me to tell others of the book:

Please be so kind and order it, if you are interested  ( helped him with one chapter a bit :-))



EMPEREUR  DES  FRANÇAIS


15,5 x 24 cm – 240 pages – plus de 150 portraits et illustrations
biographie complète des 156 descendants – tableaux généalogiques
blasons et statistiques – table des noms cités, etc.

EN SOUSCRIPTION jusqu’au 1er septembre 2008

Bulletin et chèque à envoyer chez l’auteur :
M. Eddie de Tassigny   8, rue Marquis   F – 76100   Rouen
Pour l’étranger : IBAN : FR76 1830 6000 1009 2133 3300 090 ; BIC : AGRIFRPP883

LA  DESCENDANCE  DE  NAPOLÉON  Ier,  EMPEREUR  DES  FRANÇAIS

Nom et prénom : …………………………………………………………...

Adresse : ……………………………………………………………………

Téléphone et mail : ………………………………………………………..

Commande …… exemplaire(s)
à 30 € pièce ; 35 € hors de France (40 et 45 après le 1er septembre)

soit la somme de ……… €, franco de port


TABLE DES MATIÈRES

Préface de M. Jean-Yves Labadie …………………………………………………… 3

Introduction du comte Walewski …………………………………………………… 5

Chapitre 1 - LÉON ……….………………………… 9
La belle Éléonore – Le premier mariage de ma mère – La naissance d’un aiglon –
Je faillis être le fils de Joséphine ! – Les deuxième et troisième mariages de ma mère –
Un prénom à demi impérial – Une éducation de prince – La revanche de Waterloo –
L’Aiglon des boulevards – Mûr pour la vie politique – Ma famille : ma consolation

Chapitre 2 - WALEWSKI …………………………….. 64
Avant l’arrivée de l’Empereur – La fatale rencontre – « Ma douce amie » –
L’enfant de Wagram – En guise d’affection – L’île du repos – Les dernières années de Mère – Mon arrivée à Paris – L’armée – La politique – Mes alliances

Chapitre 3 – REICHSTADT ………………………… 137
Le Fils de l’Homme – L’espoir des Français – Napoléon II pendant deux jours –
Je veux être Français ! – Le testament de Ste-Hélène – Âme de fer dans un corps de cristal – Je n’étais qu’un embarras – Mes deux autres obsèques – Ma postérité

Annexe 1 - Arbres généalogiques ……………………… 171
Synthèse de la descendance de Napoléon Ier – En résumé – Les premiers degrés Léon – Les premiers degrés Walewski – La descendance masculine de l’Empereur –
Les porteurs actuels du nom Walewski – Descendance d’Éléonore Denuelle
de La Plaigne – Descendance de Maria Walewska – Descendance de Marie-Louise –
Un cousinage insolite de la descendance Léon – Un cousinage insolite chez les Walewski –
Deux cousinages insolites de l’Aiglon – Aperçu de la maison Poniatowski

Annexe 2 - Armorial napoléonien ……………………… 190
Léon – Łączyński – Colonna Walewski – de Habsbourg-Lorraine – Reichstadt –
Montagu of Sandwich – de Ricci – de Bourqueney – Mathéus – Rossi del Barbazzale – Barthomivat de Neufville – d’Ayala Valva – Le Duc de Lillers – Riant – Bernard de Meurin –
de Laguiche – de Vogüé – de Rougé – d’Alverny – de Roffignac – Le Roux de Bretagne –
Desmousseaux de Givré – Kervyn de Volkaersbeke – de La Rochefoucauld

Annexe 3 – Statistiques …………………………… 198
Les Léon sur 6 générations – Les Walewski sur 6 générations –
La descendance de Napoléon Ier sur 7 générations – Le classement par profession

Annexe 4 – Que pensent-ils de leur ancêtre ? ………………… 204

Annexe 5 – Les « putatifs » (les prétendus enfants de Napoléon Ier) …… 219
« Un Napoléon noir » – Marie-Rose – Joséphine Souham – Napoléon-Charles Bonaparte –
Napoléon, vicomte Duchâtel – Jules Barthélémy-Saint-Hilaire – une fille –
Émilie de Pellapra – Gérard de Nerval – Paolina Mathis de Cacciorna –
Karl Eugin von Megerle von Mühlfeld – Camillo-Paolo Mathis de Caccirona –
Marie-Louise de Beausset – Théodore-Auguste Forcade –
Napoléone de Montholon – Frédéric Gordon-Bonaparte – Elizabeth Runbol –
Joséphine de Montholon – Une fille de l’Aiglon ? : Eugénie de Lunck

Bibliographie et remerciements ………………………. 227

Table alphabétique des familles citées …………………… 231

Table des matières ……………………………… 235

Questions en suspend ……………………………. 237



Thank you! I haven't ordered the book yet, but it would be interesting :)
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: susana on January 04, 2009, 06:45:56 PM
I'd love to have the book if its in English??
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Peter1954 on March 14, 2009, 04:28:56 AM
I have seen a few pictures of her and I have a few in my books. Right now my scanner is down, but I can scan them in when it's back and running.

To me she looks a lot like her mother.

According to the book I have...the one I mentioned in a previous post here is the big intro of Pellapra:

"Caroline immediately sent the news to Napoleon by courier. Nobody, however, seems to have informed him of the birth of his other child, which had occurred in Lyons on 11 November. The mother was Francoise-Marie-Emilie Pellapra, the pretty scatterbrain whom he had met in Lyons in the spring of 1805 and who had eagerly followed him to Paris to be seduced in an alcove adjoining his map-room in the Tuileries. She was slim and attractive, dark-haired and blue-eyed, married to a dour minor government official who was far from appreciating the honor conferred on his wife by the Emperor. Later, when Napoleon heard of the birth and rewarded the cuckolded husband with a post as tax collector, Alain Pellapra relented a little, but his first instinct was to deny paternity of the child. After sending Francoise back to her native Lyons for the birth, he insisted on the child being left there with his mother-in-law, Madame Louise Leroy. The baby girl was given a mixture of her mother's names, her grandmother's and that of Napoleon's deceived wife, for it was still popular to name children after Our Lady of Victories, the gracious Josephine, and Madame Pellapra was giddy-minded enough not to see anything odd in it. For most of the next four years little Emilie-Louise-Marie-Francoise-Josephine stayed in the Leroy apartment in the center of Lyons. From the balcony she could peep across the plain of Les Brotteaux, the scene of some of the most hideous atrocities of the Revolution. Day by day her cheeks plumped into an Italian chubbiness, her small nose gently curved into a budgerigar beak. There could be no doubt she was a Bonaparte."

Well...I don't know. She doesn't resemble the Bonaparte's that much. And really? An alcove of a map-room?

I have a vested interest in the Leroy family of Lyon as I am descended from it. A keen amateur genealogist and a published historian, I have studied in varying degrees of depth, the Leroy family, especially at the time of Napoleon.
There is no doubt that the Leroys owed their 'national' importance' to Napoleon - the brothers Leroy, Printers and Editors of a thriving concern, virtually ruled Lyon in the fifteen years of Napoleon's 'reign'. He was a constant visitor to both brothers, Amable and Michel (Michel was my ancestor), to their houses in Lyon and Paris. According to the few letters that remain in the family, Napoleon was chez Amable in 1805, for a couple of fleeting visits. He did shower the family with gifts and important posts. When he disappeared the Leroys were hounded from Lyon by the patriciate as 'Nouveaux', although they were a respectable leading family of Riom whose services to the community and to the nation had been greater than most of the patriciate of Lyon. Napoleonic gifts have descended to various descendants of Mlle Leroy, yet the question as to her father remains unanswreed, except that her mother was pregnant when she married Pellapra, and Pellapra seemd to have been granted rather too prestigious posts for his mediocre talents!
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on March 15, 2009, 03:19:20 AM
I'd love to have the book if its in English??

I have the same problem. There is no translation and I haven't ordered the book myself until now, it's also quite expensive and I don't speak french. That is the problem. But when I order it, I will post info.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on September 22, 2009, 07:57:37 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Fran%C3%A7oise_de_Bourbon on wikipediaaa..  (1673-1743)

and her sisters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Marie_Anne_de_Bourbon (1674-1681)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7oise-Marie_de_Bourbon has plenty of pics of her...  (1677-1749)

those three are my favourite "Légitimées de France"



Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 09, 2009, 06:27:05 PM
anyone one know anything about this lady?! she was a grand daughter of Louis XIV by his favourite son the duc du Maine..
any pics of her as well?
=]
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: CountessKate on October 10, 2009, 05:14:30 AM
W H Lewis wrote a whole book around the Duc du Maine, her father, at the end of which he said "The daughter had been a shadowy figure since her birth, and of her subsequent life we know little or nothing.  At the time of her father's death she was apparently living at Versailles, and in May 1736 was given the late Duc du Maine's rooms there.  In the following year there were rumours of her betrothal to M. de Guise, but apparently nothing came of it."  And that was it about Louise Francoise.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: gogm on October 10, 2009, 09:14:34 PM
Wikipedia has a brief article about her at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Fran%C3%A7oise_de_Bourbon_%281707%E2%80%931743%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Fran%C3%A7oise_de_Bourbon_%281707%E2%80%931743%29).
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 11, 2009, 09:09:26 AM
Wikipedia has a brief article about her at:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Fran%C3%A7oise_de_Bourbon_%281707%E2%80%931743%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Fran%C3%A7oise_de_Bourbon_%281707%E2%80%931743%29).

HAHA! it was me that created this article lmao! i started this thread in order to enlarge it :)
does anyone know of any pictures of little Mademoiselle du Maine?
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: gogm on October 11, 2009, 03:33:18 PM
I hope somebody has more information about this apparently obscure group.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 12, 2009, 12:01:04 PM
I hope somebody has more information about this apparently obscure group.

huh lol
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: CountessKate on October 14, 2009, 12:21:20 PM
General de Piepape wrote a biography of the Duchesse du Maine in 1910, which was translated in 1911 into English, and has pretty much the same thing to say as W H Lewis about Mlle du Maine:  "She lived withdrawn in a corner of the palace [Sceaux], caring little for society or intellectual pursuits, and taking, apparently, a view of life diametrically opposed to her mother's.  History has nothing of note to record of her." 

However, he does make a few observations here and there; in 1717 the three du Maine children were introduced to Made de Maintenon, effectively their grandmother by affection if not by blood, and she wrote that "Monsieur du Maine wanted me to see them.  They called here yesterday on their way back from Rambouillet [the chateau of their uncle, the Comte de Toulouse].  They are everything that one could wish; they spoke just as they ought to at their age - there was not a word I should have added or left out, and their grandfather [Louis XIV] would have been highly pleased with them. "  It appears that Mlle du Maine was placed in 'L'abbaye Notre-Dame-la-Royale dite Maubuisson', a very superior convent although from what age Piepape does not say.  When the du Maines were arrested for their part in the Cellamare conspiracy, she was "reinstalled at Maubuisson" as if perhaps she were elsewhere at the time - whether with one or other of her parents (they were arrested separately, in different locations) is not said.  Madame du Maine was imprisoned in various fortresses, but eventually was moved to the more salubrious Chateau de Savigny-sous-Beaune in 1719, at which stage she begged that her daughter might be sent to Anet where her grandmother the Princess de Conde was anxious to have her.  However, Mlle du Maine was transferred from Maubuisson to another convent at Chaillot where she stayed until about 1720, when her recently-released father took her and her brothers with him to Sceaux for a very lukewarm (on his part) reunion with their mother.

When the Duc du Maine died in 1736, Louis XV granted a pension to the Duchesse and Mlle du Maine, so they were not at all badly off.  As W H Lewis observed, Mlle du Maine inherited the Duc's appartments at Versailles.  Piepape writes that the marriage negotiations with the Duc de Guise apparently occurred in 1739, when she was 32; the Duc de Guise was 18.  However, what ended the discussions was not the disparity of age, but money, as the Duchesse du Maine stipulated that the Duc should contribute a revenue of 50,000 livres which the Duc was apparently unwilling to pay.  However, I am dubious about this Duc de Guise; the title at the time was invested in the House of Conde and the Duc de Guise in 1739 was not 18, but 3, the son of the Prince de Conde and Louise Francoise's first cousin.  Piepape also alleges that in 1740 there had been some talk of marrying Mlle du Maine to the Prince de Monaco, who was 51 and a widower, which sounds a little more likely; however, it didn't come to anything either. 

Piepape has one further anecdote about Mlle du Maine; her court hoops were so large that on one occasion they became entangled with those of the Queen and the two women had to stand and pull against each other to disentagle themselves.  Louis XV was most annoyed and M. de La Tremoille was sent to the Duchesse du Maine with the measurement for the hoops Mlle should wear, with the rider that in future she should stand at a more respectful distance from the Queen.  Piepape suggests that Louise Francoise only wore such ultra-fashionable clothes at the instigation of her mother, but he shows no evidence to support this.  He adds that "she was neither pretty or attractive, and save for her dowry, no one would have sought her hand" - I don't know on what basis he made those remarks, but since beauty or wit or charm was generally noted in the princesses of the blood, it seems likely that no mention means there was nothing to note.

Louise Francoise was "taken ill while out riding" noted the Duc de Luynes in his diary.  "No sooner was she place in her carriage than she fainted away.  She never recovered consciousness, and died a few hours later".  She was buried in the Church [chapel?] at Anet where her remains were undisturbed by the Revolution - she was too obscure to excite interest, poor woman.   
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: HSH The Duchess of Bourbon on October 20, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
what a sad life - thrown from one convent to another =[ what a dull existence: i suppose that this rules out the chance of anyone trying to find a portrait ha =\
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Mari on October 21, 2009, 12:15:42 AM
 She left her profitable pensions to her first cousin Élisabeth Alexandrine de Bourbon, Mademoiselle de Sens; daughter of her namesake Madame la Duchesse. This is the only other thing I have found to add just a tiny bit more.


Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: CountessKate on October 21, 2009, 04:54:21 AM
Quote
what a sad life - thrown from one convent to another =[ what a dull existence: i suppose that this rules out the chance of anyone trying to find a portrait ha =\

I expect there are portraits out there but there's probably not a hope of identifying them at this stage - neither of her brothers married so there wasn't any family inheritance to be kept together, and the Chateau of Sceaux was pulled down at the time of the Consulat. 

Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: susana on July 05, 2010, 01:39:19 PM
Sorry I have no source however I did read that an officer's wife left St Helena pregnant with Napoleon's child--it was a girl and a spitting image of Napoleon; the photo of the infant shown earlier on this thread is I believe the same baby. My educated selections are: Leon (Denuelle),Walewski, Reichstadt, and the baby girl. Of course when you think of the many camp followers with whom The Great Man may have dallied once and moved on with his army there could be many who will never know to claim or attempt to prove their ancestry.

By the way an alcove off of a map room would have contained furniture and such on which to relax while working out plans. I've seen alcoves in palaces which would serve the purpose of sex acts; so this is believable to me.
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: britt.25 on July 25, 2010, 07:56:46 AM
Yes, I think this is really Hélène Montholon, whom you speak of. But I think this story is rather speculation. In between I have ordered the book by Eddie de Tassigny (as well as I'm learning french for some months now....a great pleasure :-) and there is really everything about Napoleons children (even the supposed ones)
They speculated ones are under the "putatifs" and there are a lot !!!!

After Eddie des Tassigny Napoleon's speculated children are (even when most of them are rather NOT possible)


- Léon Duvar (née 1794)

- H. de Roche (1797- 1856)

- Joseph Van der Stocken (1797-1856)

- “Napoleon noir” (in 1799 in Egypt)

- Marie-Rose Bonaparte (1772)

- Marie Joséphone Souham (1801-1889)

-- Napoléon Charles Bonaparte (10/10/1802- 05/05/1807)

-- Napoleón Joseph Léon Duchâtel (5/08/ 1804 - 3/01/1884)

-- Jules Barthélemy- Sant Hilaire (19/08/1805-  24/11/1895

--Mme Masson (about 1806)

- Emilie Louise Marie Françoise Joséphine de Pellapra (1806-1871) 

-- Gérard Labrunie , dit « Gérard de Nerval » (1808-1855)

- Paolina Mathis de Cacciorna (1809-1879)

 -- Eugen Alexander Megerle von Mühfeld (1810-1868)

-- Camillo Paolo Mathis, cte de Cacciorna (1809-1891)

- Marie Louise de Beausset (1811-1852)

- Comtesse de Folkemberg (1811-1883)

-- Théodore- Auguste Forcate (1816- 1885)

- Napoléone Marie Hélène Calotte de Montholon- Sémonville  (1816-1907)

In the book of Mr de Tassigny this is an impossible story, because a secret sexual relationship was simply possible at the places (passage from Northumberland)


- Jimmy Gordon Bonaparte (seems to have been a wrong “pretender”)

- Elizabeth Runbol

- Joséphine Marie Caroline Elisabeth de Montholon- Sémonville

- At last : a daughter of Franz von Reichstadt : Eugénie de Lünck
Title: Re: Illegitimate Children of the French Royals
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on August 20, 2010, 07:23:53 PM
The line of Bourbon-Busset bears France a baton couped in bend gules, on a chief argent a cross potent between four crosslets or. Originally the Bourbon-Busset arms were Argent on a pale azure a semy-de-lys or and a bend gules, on a chief Jerusalem.

Do anybody know why the Bourbon-Bussets chose to differentiate their arms from the regular Bourbon arms (the bend gules on the fleurs-de-lys) by adding Jerusalem in chief? I presume this must be due to some ancestor or in-laws being (titular) King of Jerusalem. or? They did descend from Saint Louis, but even though he was a royal crusader, he was not King of Jerusalem.