Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 01:11:49 PM

Title: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 01:11:49 PM
  I came across this drawing which is today at the French Senat, I had never seen it before, it was made by David!

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/Tete_d_Antonia_par_David.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 01:12:40 PM
Macabre ins`t it???????? :-[ :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 02, 2006, 01:13:59 PM
Thank you Sissi, that is repellent!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 01:19:38 PM
Right!!! I was very surprised when I saw it!! I know David was present at the execution, but I did not that he made this drawing out of life!!!!!!

 I think that as an artist and person he went too far!!!! No wonder Louis XVIII made him feel that he was no longer welcome and that it was best for him to flee the country!!!!!!!

   
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 02, 2006, 02:22:20 PM
The wax model of her severed head is at Mme Tussand's (sic) museum in London.  That was actually made before she was buried right off her real head.  I saw a photograph of it, although the museum gave her a hairdo which is not technically correct as her hair was cut off before the excecution.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 02, 2006, 02:26:22 PM
Quote
Right!!! I was very surprised when I saw it!! I know David was present at the execution, but I did not that he made this drawing out of life!!!!!!

  I think that as an artist and person he went too far!!!! No wonder Louis XVIII made him feel that he was no longer welcome and that it was best for him to flee the country!!!!!!!

    


Are you sure this is by David? There's a famous sketch of her by him on the way to her execution. The one you posted seems to have been done by another (less talented) person! Just my opinion!

David voted for the King's execution which was one reason he might have expected to not find favour with the resored Bourbons. Nevertheless Louis XVIII was prepared to let bygones be bygones and actually offered him the position of court painter, which David refused, preferring to stay in voluntary exile in Brussels.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 02:33:16 PM
Quote
The wax model of her severed head is at Mme Tussand's (sic) museum in London.  That was actually made before she was buried right off her real head.  I saw a photograph of it, although the museum gave her a hairdo which is not technically correct as her hair was cut off before the excecution.


Very interesting Pers! I had no idea that such a thing was made before she was buried!
 Do you know if they did the same thing with Louis XVI???
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 02:48:55 PM
My dear bell the Cat you are correct! and also thinking about it, the guillotine had probably a more "clean" cut!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 02:50:32 PM
Bell the Cat where is the link and message you just post! I cannot see it anymore???
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 02, 2006, 03:17:20 PM
It's interesting to notice how it is the head of a young woman, although so many sources describe the queen as old, tired... and so on.

I don't think this sketch is more terrible than the awful one we always find by David.

This man was a detestable guy !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 03:22:49 PM
Quote
It's interesting to notice how it is the head of a young woman, although so many sources describe the queen as old, tired... and so on.

I don't think this sketch is more terrible than the awful one we always find by David.

This man was a detestable guy !


i COMPLETELY AGREE! DETESTABLE!!! She really was hated!!!!
 It is interesting because if you look at the death mask of Napoleon he also looks young!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 03:28:08 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/702david.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 02, 2006, 03:28:59 PM
Hard to recognize the beautiful, glamorous, elegant Marie Antoinette! :-[
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 02, 2006, 04:32:25 PM
This man was a voyeur and a bastard, I tell you !

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 03, 2006, 02:48:44 AM
Quote
Bell the Cat where is the link and message you just post! I cannot see it anymore???


Sorry I deleted the link, because I wanted to think about it (but you were too quick for me)!

here it is:

http://www.senat.fr/evenement/archives/D22/mantoinette.html

It seems the writing is definitely by someone else - and the face looks like a direct copy of the more famous sketch of MA on the way to the execution. I happen to think that the latter (which you have since been posted) shows a great deal of pity for MA as a human being - and is unquestionably the work of David. I disagree with Coquelicot that it is voyeuristic.

I agree, Sissi - the guillotine would have been kept sharp enough to make a cleaner slice! So I think all in all the beheaded sketch is a) not by David and b) not done at the time of the execution. Actually it was not possible to get that close to the execution, as the scaffold was surrounded by soldiers.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 03:19:33 AM
Quote
I disagree with Coquelicot that it is voyeuristic.


The man found a special place so that he could follow the cart and escort. He bent out of the window, and made this awful drawing.

Where do you see pity in it ? It's just a proud and arrogant old woman, so typically "the Austrian woman". All I feel while looking at it is hate and anger... an a peculiar satisfaction. This idealistic man surely thought "finally, she's broken", he could have shouted, too "voici, Antoinette, elle est foutue !"

He was involved in the revolution as, after, he would be in for Napoléon' s empire. He was just the painter of any government !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 03, 2006, 05:11:22 AM
Quote


The man found a special place so that he could follow the cart and escort. He bent out of the window, and made this awful drawing.

Where do you see pity in it ? It's just a proud and arrogant old woman, so typically "the Austrian woman". All I feel while looking at it is hate and anger... an a peculiar satisfaction. This idealistic man surely thought "finally, she's broken", he could have shouted, too "voici, Antoinette, elle est foutue !"

He was involved in the revolution as, after, he would be in for Napoléon' s empire. He was just the painter of any government !


Well it's all in the eye of the beholder I suppose, but to me there is a lot of pity in the drawing.

David was drawing what he saw. She had been separated from her children, and had been festering in a mouldy cell for several months. It's possible that she was very ill.

Would you prefer it if he had drawn her as a noble and beautiful queen?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 03, 2006, 05:14:55 AM
Quote
This man was a voyeur and a bastard, I tell you !



Ooops, don't forget younger members use these boards too coquelicot. ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 05:33:10 AM
Quote
David was drawing what he saw


... with the eyes of a republican ! So, a proud, arrogant ci-devant reine, finally broken down by glorious republic, with her so typical Habsburg lip so visible that it's a real caricature ! Do we see a mother, here ? Do we see a fragile lady who, till the very end, could move her layers ?

Here, we have nothing more than a black on white gorgona ! Down with the head of the Medusa !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 03, 2006, 05:38:49 AM
Quote

... with the eyes of a republican ! So, a proud, arrogant ci-devant reine, finally broken down by glorious republic, with her so typical Habsburg lip so visible that it's a real caricature ! Do we see a mother, here ? Do we see a fragile lady who, till the very end, could move her layers ?

Here, we have nothing more than a black on white gorgona ! Down with the head of the Medusa !


We'll have to agree to differ here Coquelicot. Although David was a diehard republican, and thought (like many Frenchmen) that Marie Antoinette had betrayed her country....this drawing makes me admire her more.

Marie Antoinette's large jaw is evident in all her portraits - I don't see it as a caricature.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 05:44:44 AM
... and I don't agree with you, dear Bell the Cat ! I just can't...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 08:29:25 AM
  The portrait to the scaffold have always appeared to me as something unreal! I just have trouble believing that this Marie Antoinette was the cheerful elegant queen!

   I guess it proves how dangerous calumnies are, because calumnies and misunderstandings are what brought Marie Antoinette to the scaffold! (in a simplistic way I mean!)

   
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 08:37:56 AM
  I found this interesting little article on Madame Tussaud`s museum

"Most of the waxworks inside are pretty incredible--Winston Churchill's is a spot-on match--but there is the occasional miss, like Harrison Ford. There is also the Chamber of Horrors, which goes back to the French Revolution roots of Madame. The Chamber is an homage to different methods of execution, including the very guillotine blade that offed Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette. The museum ends with the Spirit of London, which is kind of like a Disneyland ride showing the history of London with animatronic waxworks."
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 08:39:55 AM
A short Biography of Madame Tussaud:

"Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum starts with the story of Marie Grosholtz, born in Strasbourg in 1761. Her mother worked as a governess for a Dr Curtins, who made anatomical wax models. From her earliest childhood, Marie learnt modelling techniques with Dr Curtins. Just before the French Revolution, she moved to Paris . Louis XV1 invited her to join the Royal Court at Versailles and teach her art.

During the Revolution, Marie made death masks of royalty and decapitated revolutionaries. Later she organised an exhibition of her work. Her marriage to François Tussaud took her to England where as Marie Tussaud, she travelled about the country for 30 years presenting her exhibition which became world-famous. In 1835, she settled permanently in London . "

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 09:48:48 AM
Nice picture I suppose it is madame Tussaud! I would like to know how she came to have the real blade!!!!!!

In any case I did not know that she knew Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, and was something of an Art tutor !!!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 09:53:57 AM
(http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_4045941/8d42/__sr_/3d46.jpg?grABKCEBkKVYGyQw)

This pic I just adore ! I know it's not historically correct, she was dressed in white up, but I love the way she climbs the stair of the conciergerie, her chest raised, her head up... so noble, so above all these dirty things, this furious mob waiting for her, this humiating cart and awful journey...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 10:20:29 AM
Quote
(http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_4045941/8d42/__sr_/3d46.jpg?grABKCEBkKVYGyQw
)

This pic I just adore ! I know it's not historically correct, she was dressed in white up, but I love the way she climbs the stair of the conciergerie, her chest raised, her head up... so noble, so above all these dirty things, this furious mob waiting for her, this humiating cart and awful journey...



Coquelicot that picture is very nice, I imagine her too, standing strait, noble, like a true queen!!!
 She displayed so much courage and dignity, she actually was braver that many revolutionnaries!
 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 11:17:50 AM
Of course, she was, dear Sissi...  ;D "feeling so strong which blood runs in my veins", "I've learned from my mother how to die"...  ;D

I wonder about Madame Tussaud too. I've read that they left the queen's body and went to eat (hey ! there are priorities, you know !), so that Madame Tussaud had the time to take a real imprint of Antoinette's head.
Is that true ? Legend ?

I like this pic because it sounds like a symbolic one, the woman is dressed up like Widow Capet. It's fascinating...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 11:58:07 AM
Quote
Of course, she was, dear Sissi...  ;D "feeling so strong which blood runs in my veins", "I've learned from my mother how to die"...  ;D

I wonder about Madame Tussaud too. I've read that they left the queen's body and went to eat (hey ! there are priorities, you know !), so that Madame Tussaud had the time to take a real imprint of Antoinette's head.
Is that true ? Legend ?

I like this pic because it sounds like a symbolic one, the woman is dressed up like Widow Capet. It's fascinating...



 Pers mentioned that the wax model was an imprint from the real head! I myself do not know anything about that! maybe Pers could tell us some more if he is around here ;D
 It is quite fascinating how much things we can learn just out of a portrait!

In any case if ht imprint was from her real head I find it morbid!!!  :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 12:24:27 PM
A mortuary mask is always morbid, I think. I saw Iulius Caesar's effigies... brr. I've a friend who makes plaster masks. It's also bbrrr...  :-X
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: palatine on March 03, 2006, 12:54:54 PM
Madame Tussaud’s uncle made a living by making and selling wax heads and figures.  He had a gallery of famous historical figures, and even sculpted Marie Antoinette before the revolution.  Madame Tussaud was his apprentice and eventually inherited his business, which was booming, since wax sculptures were inexpensive compared to marble or porcelain.  Tussaud claimed that she regularly visited Versailles and taught Madame Elisabeth how to make wax flowers and so forth, but its my understanding that there is no evidence that Tussaud really did so.

After Marie Antoinette’s execution, her body was taken to a cemetery and was reportedly left unburied for a week or two; the ground was hard because it was winter.  Madame Tussaud claimed that she was ordered by the revolutionaries to go out to the graveyard and make a wax impression of the queen’s head for posterity.  She also claimed that she was ordered to make impressions of other famous people who had been guillotined.  Tussaud eventually moved to England and opened a museum where she displayed them.

I’m not sure if the wax head of Marie Antoinette is still on display.  I have an old book called “The Romance of Madame Tussaud’s” by John Tussaud which includes a picture of it.  It's not gory in any way.

As for the guillotine blade on display at the museum, it was certainly used during the Reign of Terror, but its impossible to know with certainty whether it was the blade used to execute Marie Antoinette.  Tussaud bought it from a man who told her it was the authentic blade but had no way to prove it.      
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2006, 01:06:32 PM
I saw Marie's and Louis's wax head replicas when I visited Madame Tussaud's a few years ago (yes, they are still on display!). They are in the museum's "Chamber of Horror" downstairs (If I remember correctly, this is what they call it). The story goes is that Madame Tussaud was called in and ordered to make the death masks, and these wax heads were then made from the original death masks. I have a picture of them somewhere that I took myself at the museum, so if I remember, I can post it later.... They are not so pleasant to look at, but like apaltine says, not really gory, and interesting.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 01:22:22 PM
Thank you guys! it is very enlightening!! ;D
 I can`t imagine that her body stayed "out there" for so long!

  Wasn`t it a common grave so I suppose It was open pretty much all day long, because the execution where every day.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 01:37:17 PM
Here is the picture I found on the internet,morbid definetely!!
:-X

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/wax05.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 03, 2006, 01:38:36 PM
Sissi,
This website will not come up.  Is there another link?  I do not believe MA's corpse was left out for days on end.  She was buried separately the very same day of her excecution, although Mme Tussaud had the time to take the wax death mask before the burial itself.  You'll remember that her remains were later dug up and transferred to the Basilica of St. Denis.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2006, 01:39:32 PM
This is sort of similar to my photo, but mine is more of a close-up, I think... I may even have two photos, from different angles, but I am not sure. When I get home, I will see if I can find it and post it.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 03, 2006, 01:40:58 PM
Now all of a sudden it made it's appearance after I posted.  Yes those are the heads of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette, although very much bloodied for effect...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 03, 2006, 01:46:15 PM
I think in Antonia Frasers bio of MA she states the head and body was left on the ground for several days...

When i went to Madame Tassauds five years ago the head was still on display. Such a contrast to the beautiful Marie Antoinette!!

They also have the actual blade which beheaded MA (so they claim) on display with a note on how the museum managed to acquire it.  
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2006, 01:56:42 PM
Come to think of it, I think the heads in my photo look somewhat different, but it could be that they change their hairstyles  periodically (why knows why... ) ;) !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 03, 2006, 02:05:10 PM
The wax model uncannily matches the marble busts I have seen of MA.  It is actually quite chilling to see this colour photograph after all.  I think it must have been horrific to go to your death like that.  I now can take some pity on Mme Du Barry for having lost it when her turn came to be guillotined - though I have never liked her. :-/
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2006, 03:20:52 PM
Quote
I now can take some pity on Mme Du Barry for having lost it when her turn came to be guillotined


I think Du Barry was the only one who actually had a normal human reaction to what was happening to her, and did not supress a natural urge to fight for her life or to show that she was terrified (as anyone would be). The others went to their deaths in a "dignified" way, without putting up any fight at all, or showing any emotion even. Perhaps if more acted like Du Barry, the common people at least would have seen them as human and therefore would have pitied them more and maybe objected more to all these executions, so possibly there wouldn't have been as many [?]... Who knows... But IMO, when the aristocrats acted dignified and haughty at the time of their executions, it made the common people dislike them even more, instead of pitying them... because they couldn't relate as much to their behavior. So maybe this is why not as many people objected to ti as may have. This is probably a silly and simplistic theory, but it could have been the case on a certain level.

Sorry for digressing!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 03:48:48 PM
It must have been terrifying for the people "next in line" to see the head in the baskette and to know it was going to be their turn!

  In the case of Madame du Barry it must have been pitiful to see her beg for a little moment more!!! :-[

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 03:49:49 PM
Quote
Come to think of it, I think the heads in my photo look somewhat different, but it could be that they change their hairstyles  periodically (why knows why... ) ;) !


They probably change the wigs periodically! Do you have the pictures dear Helen ???
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 04:14:48 PM
For you Coquelicot  ;)

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/sortantdelaConciergerie.jpg)


(in color)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 04:17:06 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/gauntlet.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 04:29:38 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/LouisXVIexecution.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2006, 04:42:47 PM
Quote

Do you have the pictures dear Helen


Here you go:

(http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/9417/heads8lm.jpg)

And this one is a happier one, also from Madame Tussaud's, of the whole family when they were alive:

(http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/9739/family1wl.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 03, 2006, 04:47:22 PM
  Yes they are different MA`s hair is longer!

Thanks! ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 03, 2006, 06:20:52 PM
Quote
She was buried separately the very same day of her excecution


Se was put on the ground and left there, her head between her legs, for two weeks, so that, when they finally buried her, they had to take her remains with a shovel. Vive la nation !

(http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/groups/g_4045941/8d42/__sr_/f571.jpg?grYlRCEB6gf_.IcL )
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: frohsdorf on March 03, 2006, 11:25:46 PM
My god, you people are morbid.  So much for any interesting, historical, or academic information pertaining to the Bourbon dynasty.  Instead, let's gossip about Marie Antoinette's bloody, severed head!  
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 04, 2006, 01:12:12 AM
Sorry, it's a part of her story, too... I think we cannot forget what really happened to her. I know most of the people are more interested in guessing if yes or no with Fersen. Maybe you are ?

But this terrible dead, and the way she was left for days on the ground, definititely belongs to her fate.

There's nothing morbid about that. Just, in my view, an expression of the fact that we don't only love a glamorous queen. But Marie-Antoinette, with all her sufferings and misfortunes.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 04, 2006, 05:17:58 AM
Quote
Sorry, it's a part of her story, too... I think we cannot forget what really happened to her. I know most of the people are more interested in guessing if yes or no with Fersen. Maybe you are ?

But this terrible dead, and the way she was left for days on the ground, definititely belongs to her fate.

There's nothing morbid about that. Just, in my view, an expression of the fact that we don't only love a glamorous queen. But Marie-Antoinette, with all her sufferings and misfortunes.


I agree with you here, Coquelicot!

Where did you read about the body being left for days on the ground? I find this hard to believe in a city of half a million people. Was the body guarded by soldiers?


Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 04, 2006, 05:23:54 AM
Quote
It must have been terrifying for the people "next in line" to see the head in the baskette and to know it was going to be their turn!

   In the case of Madame du Barry it must have been pitiful to see her beg for a little moment more!!! :-[


It was Mme Vigée Lebrun who expressed the opinion in her memoirs that the Reign of Terror would have been shorter if more people had reacted as Mme du Barry did.

Mme Elisabeth had the misfortune of being made to wait until about forty people were executed before it was her turn. However she didn't have to go through the streets alone as Marie Antoinette did.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 04, 2006, 05:29:54 AM
Quote

Mme Elisabeth had the misfortune of being made to wait until about forty people were executed before it was her turn. However she didn't have to go through the streets alone as Marie Antoinette did.


Yes at least she had the company of some ladies. I don't think it would have bothered Madame Elisabeth in the least though, had she undertaken the journey to the guillotine alone :)

I think it's an interesting point to make about the aristocrats not showing fear (many victims were not of the nobility though). But they were so well bred what else could you excpect from them?

I think its amazing MA didn't show fear, they hated that!!!

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 04, 2006, 06:24:08 AM
Quote

Yes at least she had the company of some ladies. I don't think it would have bothered Madame Elisabeth in the least though, had she undertaken the journey to the guillotine alone :)

I think it's an interesting point to make about the aristocrats not showing fear (many victims were not of the nobility though). But they were so well bred what else could you excpect from them?

I think its amazing MA didn't show fear, they hated that!!!



To be fair, the revolutionaries who were executed did not show fear either - so I don't think it was particularly to do with being "well bred" (whatever that may mean).
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 04, 2006, 06:30:50 AM
Quote
My god, you people are morbid.  So much for any interesting, historical, or academic information pertaining to the Bourbon dynasty.  Instead, let's gossip about Marie Antoinette's bloody, severed head!  


I wouldn't call this discussion morbid. ;) There's no rule that forbids a discussion on Marie-Antoinette's head.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 04, 2006, 06:32:57 AM
Many were so well bred with such dignity that they weren't going to show the revolutionaries that they, the creme de la creme, were frightened. The crowds weren't used to bevaviour like Madame du Barrys.

As one of the revolunaries wrote after MA's exectuion she was"audacious and insolent to the end". No she wasn't. She was of high rank and had pride!!!! As you would expect from a Queen.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: frohsdorf on March 04, 2006, 09:27:05 AM
Yes, sending messages back and forth about Marie Antoinette's head is morbid----"what did it look like", "how long did it lie on the ground", etc.  Well, here are some questions for you:

"Was it full of maggots when it was finally buried?"
"Do you think it smelled of rotting meat?"
"Did anyone cut off an ear for a souvenir?"

Is this a discussion board for historians and scholars or not?  I thought it was, which is why I've been contributing much information that is unknown and many details I've acquired from many years of research and many rare documents.  No more.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: palatine on March 04, 2006, 10:00:34 AM
Quote
My god, you people are morbid.  So much for any interesting, historical, or academic information pertaining to the Bourbon dynasty.  Instead, let's gossip about Marie Antoinette's bloody, severed head!  


Frohsdorf, I agree that the pictures of the head with the blood on it are pretty awful.  If I wasn't flummoxed by my scanner, I would post the picture that I have from the old book about Madame Tussaud's.  That picture is blood and gore free, and I think there is a curious dignity and pathos about it.    
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 04, 2006, 11:48:45 AM
Quote
"Was it full of maggots when it was finally buried?"
"Do you think it smelled of rotting meat?"
"Did anyone cut off an ear for a souvenir?"


Am I allowed to say that I ind these questions totally irrelevant ? On the contrary, I think it is interesting to know how the Queen of France died exactly, and that the french revolution, yes, let on the ground, for days, the remains of Marie-Antoinette de Lorraine d'Autriche.

This, my dear Frohsorf, fulfills me with the urge to burst in tears.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 04, 2006, 01:14:23 PM
I think, rather than moaning, people should just avoid a thread if they don't like the content. Lets discuss what we wish!! (within reason:))
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 04, 2006, 01:52:04 PM
Quote
Yes, sending messages back and forth about Marie Antoinette's head is morbid----"what did it look like", "how long did it lie on the ground", etc.  Well, here are some questions for you:

"Was it full of maggots when it was finally buried?"
"Do you think it smelled of rotting meat?"
"Did anyone cut off an ear for a souvenir?"

Is this a discussion board for historians and scholars or not?  I thought it was, which is why I've been contributing much information that is unknown and many details I've acquired from many years of research and many rare documents.  No more.


I'm very sorry you feel that way - as I am sure are others. You are a valuable contributor to this forum and it would be so much better if you could - as Eddieboy suggests - just avoid threads you don't like, since you're under absolutely no obligation to post on them,
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 05, 2006, 05:07:17 AM
The end of Marie Antoinette de Lorraine d'Autriche!
What about the end of the thousands petites Maries de Paris, died of smallpox, starvation, exploitation?

  You actually think just like some people who seeing a too fast car said: A cat could be killed!!! Poor cat!! Yhey forget something...

Coq, it's you who decide that the fact of the head between the legs illustrate the end of the life of a queen and not the smell?

Finally. Don't desqualify, please. Are you sure the same adjectifs you employed can not be applied to MA?
You act too mithomaniac. MA never read a single book. David created . She was killed horribly and did'nt deserve that end, but i don't like this epic, tragic, tone. The drawing of David shows the reality. The caricarures are these of Vigée Lebrun. It's fantastic you enjoy with them and dream, but there is an equilibre.

And , yes, beheaded hanging heads are morbid. What else could be more? ??? But those who enjoy whith these morbid tales deserve all the respect and of course are free to express themselves and to have fun.
I have stopped here today, but tomorrow i will pass over
Any prblem ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 05, 2006, 06:35:18 AM
Good. If you don't like this thread, move on.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 05, 2006, 06:43:25 AM
Let's get a little bit of perspective on this.  In the other threads on the Russian Imperial Family, their remains and what happened to it and the description in FOTR of the murder, are discussed ad nauseam.  So what's the difference?  I am sure that if wax models were made of the remains of the Imperial Family, it would have featured very prominently on this site.  In exactly the same way, the happenings around the remains in the Koptyaki Forest and the subsequent removal is discussed and pulled apart and dissected to the point that just about nothing remains for discussion.

So my point is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this discussion.  Unlike the others, we have wax deathmasks made of Louis' and MA's heads after their excecution, which to my mind make them very real to us humans, because we can "see" them!  If MA's body was left out to rot for days on end, those who were supposed to take care of it are to blame.  I am actually surprised the french mob did not come and tear it further apart, roasting and eating the liver and heart and taking the head on a tour of the city...

The moderator is right, there is nothing wrong with this discussion.  As a law student, I have attended numerous post mortem examinations as part of forensic law.  I can assure you that there are much worse to be discussed than a severed head!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 05, 2006, 06:48:23 AM
Thank you for that wonderfully concise post pers, with which I completely agree.

Anyone who has a problem with this topic, stay away from it. There's no need to post and tell us of your disapproval.

With that, let us return please to the topic of dicsussion - Marie Antoinette's head.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 05, 2006, 07:47:06 AM
Quote
MA never read a single book. David created


Yes, she read books. Not the serious ones she was supposed to, but she did. And she devoured adventures books while inprisoned in the conciergerie.

She created too. She composed.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 06, 2006, 12:28:50 AM
Quote

Yes, she read books. Not the serious ones she was supposed to, but she did. And she devoured adventures books while inprisoned in the conciergerie.

She created too. She composed.



...and decomposed.  :-/  :D (sorry couldn't resist)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 06, 2006, 12:45:48 AM
Bell the cat... c'est d'un goût plus que douteux...  ::)
Well... since you said you are sorry, maybe you couldn't help... ok, we won't kill you for that... maybe... ?  ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 06, 2006, 03:42:34 AM
OK, OK, Bon appétit !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 08:33:56 AM
Quote
My god, you people are morbid.  So much for any interesting, historical, or academic information pertaining to the Bourbon dynasty.  Instead, let's gossip about Marie Antoinette's bloody, severed head!  


   Dear Frohsdorf, I have to admit that I too do not agree with you! The portrait of her head is indeed morbid, but we are not discussing her death in a morbid way! The majority of us if not all of us, are admirers of Marie Antoinette, the way she lived, the way she loved and the way she died! The fact is that many historians rather prefer to focus on the happiest days of her life and not on her death. But her suffering the way she conducted herself and the way she was treated without any regard after her death, makes us love her even more! At least it makes me love her and respect her even more!

   I have not been here for too long but for what I read I don`t think that any of us have morbid thoughts. We are here, discussing what we love... history....
History is beautiful but also sad and cruel.

   All of us including yourself, we are passionates, but for people who do not like history as we do, they might say that it is morbid to talk about dead people all the time!!!  ::)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 11:34:03 AM
Quote


...and decomposed.  :-/  :D (sorry couldn't resist)



I read tha t she particularly like reading adventure book, the more disagreable the better, since she said that nothing could afraid her anymore, she had nothing to do all day long, the little maid that attended her said that she use to play with her solitary ring, she would passed it from one finger to another, it must have been terrible for such an energetic woman to find herself locked up in a cell without nothing to do but wait for death!!!  :-[
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 06, 2006, 12:39:16 PM
Quote


 I read tha t she particularly like reading adventure book, the more disagreable the better, since she said that nothing could afraid her anymore, she had nothing to do all day long, the little maid that attended her said that she use to play with her solitary ring, she would passed it from one finger to another, it must have been terrible for such an energetic woman to find herself locked up in a cell without nothing to do but wait for death!!!  :-[


Yes indeed! :(

Didn't she write letters to Fersen while she was in prison using a pinpricks (as she didn't have a pen)? Maybe she used paper from her adventure book?

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 01:14:11 PM
Quote

Yes indeed! :(

Didn't she write letters to Fersen while she was in prison using a pinpricks (as she didn't have a pen)? Maybe she used paper from her adventure book?




  I did not know that! But it is perfectly possible since in the Tuillerie she wrote secret message with I believe it was lemon juice, she was quiet an expert in espionage!! ;D


 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 06, 2006, 01:19:05 PM
I didn't think she wrote to Fersen in the conciergerie. She used a needle to answer the "carnation plot" men.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 01:44:07 PM
The carnation is the "Oeillet plot" coquelicot????
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 06, 2006, 03:07:06 PM
Quote
This man was a voyeur and a bastard, I tell you !


          David was also responsible for the painting - Death of Marat, he was murdered by Charlotte Corday in his bath,because of his bloody  excesses in the Revolution, especially his involvement in the September prison massacres in 1792. David portrayed the monster Marat as a  matyr of the revolution and depicted him in the painting as a Christ like character to please his fellow revolutionaries, was David guillotined with Robespeirre.  ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 03:52:31 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/marat.gif)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 05:07:22 PM
a part of the famous portrait
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 06, 2006, 05:28:42 PM
   Thanks Sissi for posting the painting, this is a great thread on the french royals, I have learnt so much from you and the other contributors on these topics,eg  Kings and Queens of France,just one more question was Marie Antoinette the the last Queen of France.  :)  ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 06, 2006, 05:39:48 PM
Thank you very much!!! I myself have learn a lot from all of you ;) ;D
  Tecnically the last Queen of France was her daughter Marie Therese d Angouleme, since Louis XIX was recognized king for 5 minutes before he abdicated!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 07, 2006, 05:26:28 AM
Well. I have now a great doubt. I am a teacher. David, Ingres, Gericault, are soposed to be studied by the students in class. In fact,  it's an important part of the programm. the "Serment du Jeu de Paume" is a masterwork and an hommage to the freedom, an historic monument. We consider Marie Antoinette biographies as optional readings. what is important is to show her figure as a symbol of the Ancient Regime. The neoclassic painters as David are an excellent help to us to make them understand graphically the Great Changes of the Humanity in this period "The equestrian portrait of Napoleon". Sincerely, our daily task to banish insults from the adolescents is hard. Perhaps you are expert historians. I am only a teacher. But i have commented that with my collegues at work. "David was a bastard" is an answer too easy. Of course we can not dedie a "unité didactique" to the Petit Trianon pleasures and displeasures, simply because it's a partial vision of the history.

             The question is that you invoque always the History when you want to say royalty or mythology, for economic, socio-politic, great mouvements of History are absolutely absent. So we are considering to select suitable websites. I don't know where you are from, but here, my friends, an exam reproducing these disccussions is failed historically, as my english grammar :P

















 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 05:31:04 AM
Quote
The carnation is the "Oeillet plot" coquelicot?


Je crois que c'est comme ça qu'ils disent en anglais, Sissi  :-*
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 07, 2006, 05:32:25 AM
Palatine,  could you please post the blood and gore free version of the wax model of MA's death mask for us?  It will be nice to have that on this discussion as well besides the ones already posted.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 05:41:26 AM
Quote
"David was a bastard"


Hi, Crotalo ! I said it, and I would repeat it, if you want me to. But they said it wasn't fair on a board children could use. So...

By the way, I am a teacher too, and I know how to deal with rules. Just read this title "French Royals". You'll have your answer !

There's a lot of boards you would be welcome for discussing about historical big movements. I myself enjoy political discussions and even politic fiction.

Open a new topic, should you desire big scale historical discussions ! This one is about "Marie-Antoinette's head".

Even if I won't use insults again to preserve young people's eyes, I completely fully and totally maintain my point of view about David. He was a painter ready to sell his soul to the next political system. And so he did !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 07, 2006, 06:02:36 AM
Merci, Coquelicot. Au moins, vous êtes bien polie et vous êtes capable de discuter. Je comprends ce que vous dites. Nous savons tous ce que David a fait. Je revendique uniquement qu'il a été un grand artiste ainsi que MA un mythe merveilleux qui ne mourra jamais.
mes excuses.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 06:13:52 AM
Mais je vous en prie, Crotalo... Nous ne sommes pas tenus d'être toujours tous du même avis ! Il est même souhaitable que nous nous opposions, c'est ce qui fait la richesse d'un forum.

Voyez... Si je partage (évidemment !) tout à fait votre opinion sur Marie-Antoinette, je ne trouve même pas que David soit un si grand peintre...

Mais cela est si personnel...

Très bonne journée à vous, et à tout bientôt !
Coquelicot
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 07, 2006, 07:02:32 AM
Would you guys mind communicating en anglais, so we can all understand? ;) Merci beaucoup.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 07, 2006, 07:31:33 AM
Quote
I am tired of saying that anyone who has a problem with this board can leave. PERIOD.

And would you guys mind communicating en anglais, so we can all understand? ;) Merci beaucoup.


It's OK, Prince_Lieven! Coquelicot and Crotalo are agreeing to disagree over the subject of whether David was a good artist or not. I think they have done this in a very reasonable and (fairly) polite way.

I do think it would be better if they posted in English though! I'm not sure about the pictures Crotalo linked to - maybe that post should be removed.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 07, 2006, 07:50:47 AM
You speak French bell?  ;) Mine is fairly school boy, unfortunately. I'll modify my original post. As for the links crotalo posted, I agree, they're too gorey. :P I've deleted them Crotalo, I don't think they're appropriate for this discussion board.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 08:33:03 AM
That's exactly what you said, Bell the Cat, and Crotalo and I said were are happy to disagree in a so fair way.
Sorry for using french...  :-X next time we'll try japonese !  ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 08:40:45 AM
This is the beauty of this forum, having people like Coquelicot and Crotalo, who have different opinions as we all have but also show respect for each others opinion!!!!!
BRAVO!!!!!!!VOUS ETES TOUT DEUX UN EXAMPLE!!!!

 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 07, 2006, 08:42:25 AM
Now that it's all cleared up, can we please return to the original topic of the thread?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 07, 2006, 08:52:46 AM
Quote
Now that it's all cleared up, can we please return to the original topic of the thread?


Couldn't resist posting this:

Wednesday's doll Marie Antoinette from the TV Series "The Addams Family":

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/bell_the_cat/mariea1.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 08:55:50 AM
Oh, thanks, Bell the Cat ! I just love Addams Family ! But I didn't remember this doll...  :'( an example of freudian zaping, for sure  :'(
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 09:02:30 AM
I had never seen the serie!!! :-[
 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Lady_Aurora on March 07, 2006, 01:31:50 PM
I just thought i'd thank you guys!  I had to do a project on the Reign of Terror and such in my European History class and my group and i found some of the pictures posted on here very useful.  thanks so much!!!

~Aurora
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 02:01:22 PM
That`s great to know!!! Always a pleasure to be helpful!! 8)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 02:40:32 PM
A song I found which supposely some Revolutionaries sang!!!


Oh, thou charming guillotine,
You shorten kings and queens;
By your influence divine,
We have reconquered our rights.
Come to aid of the Country
And let your superb instrument
Become forever permanent
To destroy the impious sect.
Sharpen your razor for Pitt and his agents
Fill your divine sack with heads of tyrants.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 02:57:34 PM
Quote

It was Mme Vigée Lebrun who expressed the opinion in her memoirs that the Reign of Terror would have been shorter if more people had reacted as Mme du Barry did.

Mme Elisabeth had the misfortune of being made to wait until about forty people were executed before it was her turn. However she didn't have to go through the streets alone as Marie Antoinette did.



 I found this passage of her memoirs:


"Madame Du Barry ... is the only woman, among all the women who perished in the dreadful days, who could not stand the sight of the scaffold. She screamed, she begged mercy of the horrible crowd that stood around the scaffold, she aroused them to such a point that the executioner grew anxious and hastened to complete his task. This convinced me that if the victims of these terrible times had not been so proud, had not met death with such courage, the Terror would have ended much earlier. Men of limited intelligence lack the imagination to be touched by inner suffering, and the populace is more easily stirred by pity than by admiration."
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 07, 2006, 03:25:25 PM
Thanks or reminding, Sissi. Well... I must admit that, if I admire so much Marie-Antoinette's noble demaneor, I fully understand Barry's one... Both of them are extreme : extreme courage and pride for the queen, and extreme desperate feeling for the favorite... who enjoyed life so much...  :-[
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 03:34:23 PM
I totally agree with you!!! Nobody wants to die and that is the reality! Both Marie Antoinette and barry were woman who had been admired, who have had power, beauty anything they wanted, and all of the sudden they were treated like junk! and brought to the scaffold!!! it is definately a rapid "descente aux enfers"!!!!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 03:38:01 PM
le Dr. Guillotin

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/guillotine18.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 03:39:42 PM
The marquis de Sade wrote this about the Guillotine:

"... when suddenly the execution grounds were placed absolutely under our windows and the cemetery for those guillotined put in the very middle of our garden. We have buried eighteen hundred of these in thirty-five days, a third of them from our unfortunate house." And later he complained, "My detention by the state with the guillotine right before my eyes did me a hundred times more harm than all imaginable Bastilles."
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 07, 2006, 03:41:12 PM
     There is a Far Side cartoon by Gary Larson  titled  Marie Antoinette's last ditch effort to save her head  -  the cartoon shows her on the way to the scaffold shouting to the crowd And ice cream I said '' Let them eat cake and ice cream. Larson's cartoons are not politicallly correct and they appear in daily newspapers  in Australia, are they popular in Europe   ;D  ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 03:56:08 PM
I know the marquis de Sade is not a good example, however I thought it was interested the effect the guillotine had on everybody at the time!!!! ::) ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 07, 2006, 03:57:18 PM
Quote
    There is a Far Side cartoon by Gary Larson  titled  Marie Antoinette's last ditch effort to save her head  -  the cartoon shows her on the way to the scaffold shouting to the crowd And ice cream I said '' Let them eat cake and ice cream. Larson's cartoons are not politicallly correct and they appear in daily newspapers  in Australia, are they popular in Europe   ;D  ;)


I have never heard of it! But it sounds fun!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 08, 2006, 03:48:20 AM
Prince Lieven. Of course you have well done deleting that post. I have thought to post Laura Palmer, more aesthetic, but Pers asked for Gore and it was my only will to please him. don't worry, that was a digital creation, so unreal as Mme Thussaud wax.

Well, glad to see there is still good sens in your decissions.
                                             Have a nice day.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 08, 2006, 04:01:53 AM
    Hi Sissi, Gary Larson's cartoons have been circulating the world since 1980, he stopped drawing in 1994, but the appeal of his weird humour lives on, one of my favourites is titled  Circa 1500 A D:  Horses are introduced to America,  the gag in the cartoon is that Indians and horses are meeting for the first time and handshakes are going all around  ;D    
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 08, 2006, 04:10:05 AM
Quote

Couldn't resist posting this:

Wednesday's doll Marie Antoinette from the TV Series "The Addams Family":
      
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/bell_the_cat/mariea1.jpg)

           Hi, bell_the_cat, I am pretty sure Wednesday had another doll, Mary, Queen of Scots, The Addams Family and  the Munsters are on DVD in Australia  ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 08, 2006, 04:13:58 AM
There is a curious detail which is sometimes related about the last moments of the queen. Some say Marie Antoinette accidentally pushed the executionner. Automatically she said: " Pardon, Monsieur". Only two words and however an entire world condensed in them.
Was it true? I ignore the sources.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 08, 2006, 04:40:55 AM
Quote
           Hi, bell_the_cat, I am pretty sure Wednesday had another doll, Mary, Queen of Scots, The Addams Family and  the Munsters are on DVD in Australia  ;D


Yes, I seem to recall that too. Didn't she have a little guillotine for when she was playing with them?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 08, 2006, 05:12:23 AM
Quote
There is a curious detail which is sometimes related about the last moments of the queen. Some say Marie Antoinette accidentally pushed the executionner. Automatically she said: " Pardon, Monsieur". Only two words and however an entire world condensed in them.
Was it true? I ignore the sources.


As far as I know, there are 3 different versions of her last attitudes : this one, dear Crotalo, is often mentioned. You find this in Fraser, for instance. However, Zweig thinks that was a legend.
Another sentence may be "good bye, dear children, I go and find your father back".
According to an ocular witness, she simply climbed the
stair "out of bravado", dropped her hat, and presented herself without a sigh to the ritual. It's my favorite version, but, without evidences, we are allowed to choose ours !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 08, 2006, 07:47:50 AM
Crutalo, my posting reads "a blood and gore FREE version"!!! - that means WITHOUT.  
Be that as it may, I think the other version of MA's last words on the scaffold after she apologised for having stepped on Sanson's foot, was for them to make haste/ make it quick.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 10:09:21 AM
I have found another picture of the was heads of Hebert, MA, Louis XVI and Robespierre which is scary! I am still thinking of I should post it or not!!! :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 08, 2006, 11:41:25 AM
perhaps give us the links ? I would be please to see Hebert dead once for good !  ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 11:58:38 AM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/marie18.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 08, 2006, 12:42:58 PM
Thanks, Sissi ! This one I just love...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 01:03:00 PM
Prince Lieven if you think that it is proper to remove the picture, please do so! ;D

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/tussaud01.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 01:10:36 PM
tHe first one is Hebert, the lasat one is Robespierre!!!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 01:20:38 PM
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/pereduchesne.jpg)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 08, 2006, 01:42:42 PM
It is now sixteen or seventeen years since I saw the queen of France, then the dauphiness, at Versailles; and surely never lighted on this orb, which she hardly seemed to touch, a more delightful vision. I saw her just above the horizon, decorating and cheering the elevated sphere she had just begun to move in, glittering like the morning star full of life and splendor and joy. 0h, what a revolution! and what a heart must I have, to contemplate without emotion that elevation and that fall! Little did I dream, when she added titles of veneration to those of enthusiastic, distant, respectful love, that she should ever be obliged to carry the sharp antidote against disgrace concealed in that bosom; little did I dream that I should have lived to see such disasters fallen upon her, in a nation of gallant men, in a nation of men of honor, and of cavaliers! I thought ten thousand swords must have leaped from their scabbards, to avenge even a look that threatened her with insult.

But the age of chivalry is gone; that of sophisters, economists, and calculators has succeeded, and the glory of Europe is extinguished forever. Never, never more, shall we behold that generous loyalty to rank and sex, that proud submission, that dignified obedience, that subordination of the heart, which kept alive, even in servitude itself, the spirit of an exalted freedom! The unbought grace of life, the cheap defense of nations, the nurse of manly sentiment and heroic enterprise is gone. It is gone, that sensibility of principle, that chastity of honor, which felt a stain like a wound, which inspired courage whilst it mitigated ferocity, which ennobled whatever it touched, and under which vice itself lost half its evil, by losing all its grossness.

[glb]Edmund Burke - 1793[/glb]

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 09, 2006, 04:15:04 AM
     Did Sanson, the official executor of Louis XV1, also execute Marie Antoinette, and did he keep diaries. of these events, just curious  ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 09, 2006, 04:55:47 AM
Quote
Crutalo, my posting reads "a blood and gore FREE version"!!! - that means WITHOUT.  
Be that as it may, I think the other version of MA's last words on the scaffold after she apologised for having stepped on Sanson's foot, was for them to make haste/ make it quick.


My God, it's true  :o. Sorry, sorry. There are sometimes ambiguous phrases for us . thanks Pers.

Do you know perhaps the exact words reported to have been pronounced? Dépêchez-vous? Faites-le vite? It can be considered irrelevant, but every word in such circonstances has the strange effect of fascinate me.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 09, 2006, 05:18:47 AM
Quote

As far as I know, there are 3 different versions of her last attitudes : this one, dear Crotalo, is often mentioned. You find this in Fraser, for instance. However, Zweig thinks that was a legend.
Another sentence may be "good bye, dear children, I go and find your father back".
According to an ocular witness, she simply climbed the
stair "out of bravado", dropped her hat, and presented herself without a sigh to the ritual. It's my favorite version, but, without evidences, we are allowed to choose ours !


Yes, the courage of the last one is impressive. If once she said she had learned how to die from Marie Thérèse, i wonder what kind of conversation was it. Mainly Habsburg women were prepared to die in acouchements. Her case was a precedent. To me it must be a dramatic fantasy of the queen remembering Cleopatra more than M. therese ( So Mary Stuart was in her genealogical tree, for Liselotte descended from the Winter Queen. It's curious that Sweig doesn't mention it, having biographied the life of the two queens). but, who knows, perhaps the Great Empress included in the education of her sons and daughters such matters. It's more logical to think that when in Wien she had an infance funny and unworry. I ignore if there is a precedent in another killed Habsburg queen or empress. I have been looking for but i don't find it.

By the way. What is more correct : Marie Antoinette de Lorraine Habsbourg or Marie antoinette d'Habsbourg Lorraine. In fact, the first, beacuse his father was Lorraine ( she descended from Louis XIII, she was her great great gran daughter, so not so stranger finally) I suppose the family names were inverted in order to preserve the precedence and continuity of the Habsburg House in the male sons of Marie Therese. how was she mentionned more frequently in contemporary sources?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 09, 2006, 06:07:21 AM
On trial, she called herself Marie-Antoinette de Lorraine d'Autriche.

About her mother, I had always thought she simply meant that her mother was dead, already, bravely. I understand this as the strength a daughter may receive from the thought of her dead mother.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 09, 2006, 06:26:48 AM
Thanks, Coquelicot. If she called herself like this, I think it's the correct way. I did'nt knew. Who could know better than she who she was...?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 09, 2006, 08:08:42 AM
Crotalo, the correct one is <<Faites-le vite>>, as far as I can recall from what I have read.  Of course <<Depechez-vous>> is quite possible, as they both basically give the same message.

Don't you all think that this is a much quicker way to "go", instead of these lethal injections they use here in the USA?  This is now making the assumption that the death penalty is OK...
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 09, 2006, 04:58:25 PM
Quote
On trial, she called herself Marie-Antoinette de Lorraine d'Autriche.

About her mother, I had always thought she simply meant that her mother was dead, already, bravely. I understand this as the strength a daughter may receive from the thought of her dead mother.



  I guess she also referred heself to the fact that Marie Therese had show courage during the Hungarian revolt, she went to the balcony at Godollo I believe it was and she stood their with Joseph II who was still a child at the time, in front of the "populace" and had so much dignity that the Hungrians were touched!!!
  the empress was a very self confident person, who show courage in the most dangerous moment!
  I think MA was referring to the fact that she was no coward, that if she had to face death she would do it her head high, proud of who she was. And she did it! She show them she was above them!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 10, 2006, 04:11:04 AM
Quote


   I guess she also referred heself to the fact that Marie Therese had show courage during the Hungarian revolt, she went to the balcony at Godollo I believe it was and she stood their with Joseph II who was still a child at the time, in front of the "populace" and had so much dignity that the Hungrians were touched!!!
   the empress was a very self confident person, who show courage in the most dangerous moment!
   I think MA was referring to the fact that she was no coward, that if she had to face death she would do it her head high, proud of who she was. And she did it! She show them she was above them!


Yes, it's true. There is also the astrian succession war which confronted the heiress with the bavarian claimer. these were hard and dangerous moments. Her grandma Eliz Christine of Br.Wolfembutel was a very brave woman too dealing with succesion spanish war alone in Barcelona
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 10, 2006, 04:22:49 AM
Quote
Crotalo, the correct one is <<Faites-le vite>>, as far as I can recall from what I have read.  Of course <<Depechez-vous>> is quite possible, as they both basically give the same message.

Don't you all think that this is a much quicker way to "go", instead of these lethal injections they use here in the USA?  This is now making the assumption that the death penalty is OK...


I would prefer guillotine if executed. Blood comes after, when one can not suffer anymore. Poisons and electricity always produce convulsions :(
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 10, 2006, 08:20:57 AM

I read that some times after the execution the eyes blinked!! That foe a couple of second they were still conscious!! I am no doctor so I really do not know if that it is possible or not! dOES ANY OF YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT IT??
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 10, 2006, 08:56:27 AM
I heard about that too, Sissi... awful, isn't it ?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 10, 2006, 09:07:58 AM
I think the same thing was said about Anne Boleyn, they said her lips moved. I don't know if it's possible or not.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 10, 2006, 09:13:40 AM
Maybe the brain is still alive for a few seconds ?

It's awful, really, but when you cut the head of a chicken off, and let the body, the body runs away for a while. I've seen it as a child... a trauma, I tell you !  :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 10, 2006, 09:36:11 AM
I have read that too!!! Could it be possible that the braisn still react a few seconds after the cut??? That would be terrible!!!! :-[
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 10, 2006, 09:37:50 AM
If it's possible at all, it's probably something to do with nerves.  ???
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 10, 2006, 10:06:44 AM
From a medical perspective, the moment the blade severs the spinal cord (which is one of the first things the blade strikes) you loose consciousness and you're off! :)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 10, 2006, 10:39:31 AM
So the blinking would only be that just a sort of "mechanical" thing!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Kimberly on March 10, 2006, 10:56:12 AM
I understand that although the head is seperated from the body, it still has an oxygen supply. some people postulate that there is still concious thought due to the synapses still firing. This can last upwards of a minute....is this an urban myth ???
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 10, 2006, 12:01:44 PM
Quote
From a medical perspective, the moment the blade severs the spinal cord (which is one of the first things the blade strikes) you loose consciousness and you're off!


With all my soul... I hope so !

But, Kimberly, should you be right... what is a minute when you are about to die... Has anybody seen "Jacob's ladder" ? A minute may last for an eternity...  :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 10, 2006, 12:40:04 PM
I never saw the movie!
 
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Kimberly on March 10, 2006, 12:55:16 PM
Haha very esoterical Coquelicot ;)
Yes, I have seen "Jacob's Ladder".
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 10, 2006, 01:02:09 PM
Ive heard that too Kimberly. My Dad once read a reliable story of how an executioner would ask his victims if they wouldn't mind blinking, if they were able to, once they were dacapitated and apparently many of them did.... :-/

Some people say it's just the nerves though..
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 11, 2006, 04:10:46 AM
I have also see chickens as coquelicot did. But once I saw one to pass over an obstacle flying (as far as these animals can fly). It's absolutely true, I swear. I remember it perfectly, we were childs and laughted on it. Certainly it lasted few than a minute, fortunately. Have you seen the film "Aguirre o la cólera de Dios"? Off topic, but a man is counting something: 7, 8, 9. suddenly he is beheaded by a sword, the head separated on the flour, open eyes, says: ten. Unforgetable :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 13, 2006, 05:18:06 AM
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b68/bell_the_cat/head3.jpg)

In the film "Carry on Don't Lose Your Head", the Duke de Pomfritt is about to be guillotined when a letter arrives for him. "Just put it in the basket", he says coolly, "I'll read it later".
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 13, 2006, 05:24:05 AM
LoL . They have put him in "decubito supino" position!!!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 13, 2006, 06:32:38 AM
lol, Carry On films are just the best  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 13, 2006, 07:28:08 AM
Quote
LoL . They have put him in "decubito supino" position!!!


Yes, this is the cue for the next joke. The executioner pulls the rope and the blade jams. The stupid aristocrat then helpfully points out that there is a small piece of wood which is blocking the groove....... ::)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: crotalo on March 14, 2006, 05:00:43 AM
Yes, jsut the appropiate "emoticon":  ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 14, 2006, 07:45:59 PM
Quote
I have also see chickens as coquelicot did. But once I saw one to pass over an obstacle flying (as far as these animals can fly). It's absolutely true, I swear.


Speaking of headless chickens, there is this weird tale of Mike the Headless Chicken. Mike the Chicken was beheaded in order to become dinner, but proceded to live for another 18 months, seemingly not even realizing that his head was gone, which was demonstrated by random pecking with the nonexisting beak. Mike had even developed a big following apparently, and became somewhat of a cult figure... You can read his story on this website (you can also google him). It is evidently a true story!  http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.html


(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2011/mike17kt.png)Mike the Headless Chicken



Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Ortino on March 14, 2006, 08:59:00 PM
Quote

Speaking of headless chickens, there is this weird tale of Mike the Headless Chicken. Mike the Chicken was beheaded in order to become dinner, but proceded to live for another 18 months, seemingly not even realizing that his head was gone, which was demonstrated by random pecking with the nonexisting beak. Mike had even developed a big following apparently, and became somewhat of a cult figure... You can read his story on this website (you can also google him). It is evidently a true story!  


Frankly, it sounds too wierd to be real. I mean, people claim to have seen Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster, but it's clearly all for publicity. I would say that that story pretty much falls into that catagory. Spontaneous movement after death is probably either just spasms from the nervous system shutting down or from separation from the impulses that nerves need to function.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Imperial.Opal on March 15, 2006, 03:48:55 AM
  The germans had their own guillotine too, The nazis used it on the communist dutchman who supposedly burnt down the Reichstag in 1933 and the White Rose resistance group -  Sophie Scholle and her uni friends in 1944.
 Did France abolish the death penalty in 1971  ???
       
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 15, 2006, 05:27:23 AM
I have read that the Nazi government guillotined more people during the time of the Third Reich than the French did during the French Revolution.  The guillotine was the preferred choice inside the Nazi prisons.  It was set up in one of the prison rooms.  It was not as tall as the French version, but had a heavier weight on the blade to compensate for the loss in height.

The French abolished the death penalty in 1977.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on March 15, 2006, 09:08:14 AM
Wow!!! The things you learn, I had never heard that the Nazis used guillotine!!! ::) :o
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 18, 2006, 09:17:09 AM
I know MA was very ill at the time of her trial, possibily ovarian cancer?

In a book I flicked through today it went as far as to say that by the time of her trial MA was dying! any thoughts on this?

Thank you.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 18, 2006, 10:00:09 AM
Well, if she was ill, all the stress would've only made it worse.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Ortino on March 18, 2006, 07:05:23 PM
Quote
I know MA was very ill at the time of her trial, possibily ovarian cancer?

In a book I flicked through today it went as far as to say that by the time of her trial MA was dying! any thoughts on this?

Thank you.


I don't know about dying, but Fraser indicates that during her imprisonment the frequency of her haemorrahages increased. She offers three explanations for this: the early onset of menopause, fibroids, and "cancer of the womb." Being confined to a tiny, airless cells for several weeks I'm sure did not help her condition.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 19, 2006, 12:36:15 AM
ovarian cancer ? I thought it was an uterus cancer ?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Kimberly on March 19, 2006, 04:20:01 AM
Well, its something gynaecological and probably lethal
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 19, 2006, 06:24:54 AM
If it was something to do with menopause, it would be very early indeed! Marie-Antoinette didn't live to see 40!
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 19, 2006, 06:33:03 AM
It's possible, anyhow. Women can have menopause very early. Furthermore, she had always have gynecological problems, a difficult first childbirthing and several miscarriages. She had a certain fragility. All the shoks and horrible events she went through may provoke different illnesses or menopause.

A new book very well documented will soon be released. Hopefully we'll learn more about it !
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on March 19, 2006, 08:39:56 AM
Coquelicot, please give us the details about this book, the author, the release date etc. etc.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: coquelicot on March 19, 2006, 10:01:54 AM
Part one is already available on the net (alapage). It's in french, by BELAICHE DANINOS PAU - Les 76 derniers jours de Marie-Antoinette à la conciergerie - Actes Sud.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: frohsdorf on May 29, 2006, 11:58:33 PM
I have read a remarkable document in the Archives Nationales in Paris that when a particular French princess was guillotined, the executioner untied the body from the plank, and the body promptly jumped up, reached into the basket, picked up the severed head and threw it at the executioner.  It then proceeded to jump up and down before finally collapsing into a heap about a minute later.  The head was laughing the entire time, before finally fading into unconsciousness.  I cannot reveal the identity of the princess, because the document  was a "restricted" item for research purposes only.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on May 30, 2006, 07:46:39 AM
Now I really don't want to sound disrespectful to you, but I must confess I have a VERY hard time believing this... :-?  Once the neck is severed, the person is immediately unconscious, I mean it is like breaking your neck, except it is "broken" right off!
To my knowledge only one Queen and one French princess was guillotined, namely Marie-Antoinette and Madame Elisabeth.  No one else I know of, but I stand to be corrected.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Sissi on May 30, 2006, 09:04:15 AM
Quote
I have read a remarkable document in the Archives Nationales in Paris that when a particular French princess was guillotined, the executioner untied the body from the plank, and the body promptly jumped up, reached into the basket, picked up the severed head and threw it at the executioner.  It then proceeded to jump up and down before finally collapsing into a heap about a minute later.  The head was laughing the entire time, before finally fading into unconsciousness.  I cannot reveal the identity of the princess, because the document  was a "restricted" item for research purposes only.



Wow!!!! :-? Is that possible!

In any case if it is true it must have been terryfying!  :o

Was it a "serious" document, yes the only queen and princess were MA and Elizabeth!

Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on May 30, 2006, 09:26:48 AM
Quote
I have read a remarkable document in the Archives Nationales in Paris that when a particular French princess was guillotined, the executioner untied the body from the plank, and the body promptly jumped up, reached into the basket, picked up the severed head and threw it at the executioner.  It then proceeded to jump up and down before finally collapsing into a heap about a minute later.  The head was laughing the entire time, before finally fading into unconsciousness.  I cannot reveal the identity of the princess, because the document  was a "restricted" item for research purposes only.

I too would love to know the identity if the princess concerned, but respect your reasons for not divulging her name. After all she had gone through, a little bit of privacy and discretion is not much to ask for!  ;)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: bell_the_cat on May 30, 2006, 09:29:39 AM
Quote

Wow!!!! :-? Is that possible!

In any case if it is true it must have been terryfying!  :o

Was it a "serious" document, yes the only queen and princess were MA and Elizabeth!


There were plenty of (non-royal) princesses in eighteenth century France! One who was guillotined was the Princesse de Monaco (I'm not saying it's her though).
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: pers on May 30, 2006, 10:57:49 AM
I personally think it is not true.  Also the hands are tied behind the back.  I think the "source" is unreliable and that this is a send-up. ;D
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: frohsdorf on June 06, 2006, 08:08:44 PM
Yes, this was a send up.  Give me a break.  After all this talk about "headless chickens" on a royalty discussion sight......
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: razvannicola on January 21, 2009, 03:43:37 PM
I'm having a few questions-just to satisfy my own curiosity: is someone who knows any attempt to examine the royal remains of louis xvi and MA after 1815? Which were the criterias of these-let's say so - forensic examinations, in order to proove, once and for all, that these remains were undoubtfully theirs? I once read in a document about St.Denis that since 1972-there are excavations and sort of historical and archaeological research taking place over there,conducted by most renowned specialists in France,possibly due to the increase of the MA's phenomenon of rehabilitation in the common people's eyes,after the war. How the Louis XVIII's commision was fully convinced that those remains were indeed MA's remains? Is that mentioned in the commision's report that her head was indeed very well, strangely well preserved? Thank you.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: erzsi on January 22, 2009, 04:51:59 PM
Hi,

The king and the queen were laid in single graves. One could identify MA ,with the help of her garter, also one says her head would have lain between her feet how with criminals it was then usual... Moreover, the graves on the Madleine had remained a cemetery unlooted.
The grave of both was without names, but a man knows where this graves are and he look after them.
In 1815 the King and the Queen were exhume and reburied in St. Denis at 21 January 1815.
In the MA Biografie from Antonia Fraser is one qoote, how Marie Therese (the eldest daughter of the king) came to the grave of her parents.

>>When Marie Thérése return after the restoration for the first time to France, accompanied Pauline de Tourzel, in the meantime, Comtesse de Béarn, which daughter Marie Antoinettes to the tombs of her parents. It was seven o'clock in the morning, and the Duchesse d'Angouléme carried insignificant dress as well as a veil about the hat. Both ladies were led by Pierre Louis Desclozeaux, a betagem lawyer who lived with his son-in-law in the Rue d'Anjou 48. He was able to do himself still well to both burials errinnern and had maintained gräber since that time. He reports to the "daughter of the Märtyerkönigs" that the gravediggers with the procedure of the Einsargens of her mother a break had made around her mittagessen to consume and the corpse with the head unguardedly in the grass lie leissen; thus could make the future Madame Tussaud a wax impression of the lifeless face of the queen. To tremble with the Anbick of the tombs beagnn Marie Thérése, fell on the knees and then prayed for the luck of France - a prayer that her parents had spoken very often. The statement of Desclozeaux' was of great importance when both royal Corpses should be exhumed on the 18th of January. The remains kings and the queen were laid out short time in the house in the Rue d Á njou 48, and one spoke prayers, before mans she laid in new coffins which were marked with the royal titles of her owners. On the 21st of January, 1815 a procession took place to the cathedral Sainte-Denis - there was over the 22nd anniversary of the execution Ludwigs XVI.<<
 citations: "Marie Antoinette" of lady Antonia Fraser, in 2006

Since 1815 nobody exhumed the graves of the both in my opinion.
And it's also difficult to find genetic Material today to compare with the DNA of the King and the Queen.
The only way is, take the DNA from Marie Therese and compare it with the DNA of Louis XVI and MA but the problem is, that the Government of Slowakia (who Marie Therese have her grave) not allowed to opend it.
And I'm not sure if the French Gouvernment allowed to opend the graves of the King and his family...



Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Alexander1917 on January 22, 2009, 05:18:54 PM
I only know that they made some research about Louis XVII by DNA (google...)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: imperial angel on January 22, 2009, 08:14:12 PM
I'm having a few questions-just to satisfy my own curiosity: is someone who knows any attempt to examine the royal remains of louis xvi and MA after 1815? Which were the criterias of these-let's say so - forensic examinations, in order to proove, once and for all, that these remains were undoubtfully theirs? I once read in a document about St.Denis that since 1972-there are excavations and sort of historical and archaeological research taking place over there,conducted by most renowned specialists in France,possibly due to the increase of the MA's phenomenon of rehabilitation in the common people's eyes,after the war. How the Louis XVIII's commision was fully convinced that those remains were indeed MA's remains? Is that mentioned in the commision's report that her head was indeed very well, strangely well preserved? Thank you.

Which war?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: razvannicola on January 23, 2009, 01:51:51 PM
The last one (WW2)
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: erzsi on January 23, 2009, 05:12:47 PM
@ razvannicola I don't unterstand what is similar the world war II and the forensic examination of Louis XVI. ?
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: razvannicola on January 23, 2009, 05:35:05 PM
First:thanks for the info,erzsi. That's nothing similar between the world war 2 and the forensic examination of Louis XVI. Let's reformulate:I just wanted to say that due to the rehabilitation of their persons-Louis and MA-in the common people's eyes and the rehabilitation of the truth(books, historical researches,essays,etc.),it was necessary, in the period after WW2,some detailed research of the phenomenon.Which happened. That could possibly included some forensic reexamination of the bodies, due to the new discoveries of science and technology: X-Ray, DNA,and so on.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Mari on January 24, 2009, 04:44:38 AM
"The Last Days of Marie Antoinette" and it explains how they knew where She was buried! Just click on link and read. As well as Louis XVI and others! How the Graves were marked...

http://books.google.com/books?id=XkpBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=finding+the+grave+of+Marie+Antoinette+in+La+Madeleine&source=web&ots=gQQPOJ_Cpo&sig=rLiQnt8E6I4FbIIzl9aWe55gWlE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA267,M1

Starting from here the details of the exhumation process, the testimonies and the descriptions
http://books.google.com/books?id=XkpBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=finding+the+grave+of+Marie+Antoinette+in+La+Madeleine&source=web&ots=gQQPOJ_Cpo&sig=rLiQnt8E6I4FbIIzl9aWe55gWlE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA269,M1


Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: razvannicola on January 24, 2009, 01:33:26 PM
Thanks a lot, Mari.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Carol Jean on February 23, 2009, 06:50:44 PM
Hi, So do they have the DNA of King Louis XVI or his brother CharlesX? I have started a DNA group on Ancestry.Com titled Nobility of France, DNA and Genealogy. I am inviting any one who is a descendant of the Royalty of France to join this DNA group. It would be great if there was DNA of King Louis XVI's to post on this group.  Just wanted to ask.
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Machina XII on February 24, 2009, 02:00:56 AM
Hi, So do they have the DNA of King Louis XVI or his brother CharlesX? I have started a DNA group on Ancestry.Com titled Nobility of France, DNA and Genealogy. I am inviting any one who is a descendant of the Royalty of France to join this DNA group. It would be great if there was DNA of King Louis XVI's to post on this group.  Just wanted to ask.

I can't find it. Do you have a link? *wishfully thinking that I might be related to them*
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: carl fraley on May 01, 2009, 04:21:39 AM
I WAS actually wondering this the other day, HM Charles X, THR the Duke and Duchess of ANguelome are all buried in Our Lady, Castagnavizza, Nova Gorica, Slovenia.  Has there been any attempt to repatriate their bodies to france?  Has it ever been discussed?  I think it should be?  If Napoleon's been returned to France the I believe the last Legitimate Bourbons should be.  Would HIH Archduke OTTo be the Senior Descendant of Charles X through his grandaughter, HRH  Louise Marie Thérèse  of Parma?  Would they have to get HIR & HRH permission??
Title: Re: MA & LouisXVI's remains
Post by: Carol Jean on May 03, 2009, 05:37:31 PM
If any one knows that some where tests have been done on the bodies of King Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette as DNA test's to confirm who they were for positive proof, I would love to know if there is any where that this DNA test results could be? I am sure that they examined the bodily remains of this couple before they were buried in their final resting place. Is there hair or anything else from King Louis XVI that could be used for DNA purposes? If so I would like to see this results posted on the DNA group Titled Nobility of France DNA that is on Ancestry.Com. There is a number of members in this group that say that they are descendants of the Kings of France and this comparison would prove one way or the other on their claims.  I am the Administrator of this group so that is one reason I am seeking to find the DNA of the Kings of France.