Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: Monarchist on March 19, 2006, 09:34:42 PM

Title: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Monarchist on March 19, 2006, 09:34:42 PM
The current Imperial Prince Charles Napoleon will be running for a political position in 2007. This is his website for the canpaign: http://cscorse.ifrance.com/
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Monarchist on March 19, 2006, 09:37:39 PM
House Bonaparte 1799-2004 family tree in PDF: http://www.homar.org/genealog/pagina.asp?pag=frc20

The Prince Napoleon, leader of the Imperial claimants was married to Beatrice, a Bourbon Two Sicilies Princess. That makes their son Jean both Bonaparte and Bourbon. They had two kids but divorced. He remarried and has one daugther and one adopted daughter with his new wife Jeanne Francoise Valliccioni.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 27, 2006, 07:42:58 AM
Hello, My name is Britta and I am also very interested in the Bonaparte family and the descendants. Unfortunately there are not so many people with this interest, especially not in Germany.
I also like Charles Napoleon a lot, and know a lot of him by the time. I had also  a very short contact to him and wanted to interview him, but it got lost , he did not answer me any more :'(

I think it is quite a pity that there are hardy photos of his family. I never saw good picture of Jean Christophe, his son, who must be almost twenty by the time, and of his youngest daughter Sophie there are no pictures at all.
It is a pity, because other royals like those in England ( I am not  a fan of them, sorry for saying that) are always in the newspapers.
Do you have any indeas where to find pictures of Charles family? Especially his son Jean?
I really have a lot of symphathy for the person Charles, his ancestry, his interesting career, his appearance...everything, he loooks very elegant because of his tall size. Also his father Louis was very tall, I saw him in old versions of "point de Vue" from the 70´s and 80´s and he always had to look down for other people ;)

Do you have any idea, how to find pictures of his family?

I am writing at an article about Marie Bonaparte, greatgranddaughter of Lucien Bonaparte and had a phone conversation with her grandson in Italy. Unfortunately he is very busy, but a very kind person.

  If you have information on Bonaparte- pictures I would be thankful for a reply.

Thanks,

Britta
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Mlle_Gabrielle on March 27, 2006, 10:02:23 AM
Hello, Britta!

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/families/bonaparte/bonaparte.htm

 - there you will find some photos of Bonaparte family, included Napoleon´s parents, but there is not a picture of Charles Napoleon and his children.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 27, 2006, 11:52:47 AM
Hello,

thanks for the link, I already know this site, it is very good and I like it a lot. ;)

I am a crazy person, I have already painted fifty portraits of the family...but Charles´ children are still missing...

There are sometimes very good infos and pictures in old versions of  the french point de vue magazine. Even of the Walewskis (illegitimate descendance of Napoleon I) and the Murats (from Caroline of Neaples)

Sometimes it is sold at Ebay.

But it´s a pity that I never say Jean Christophe!

I think I´ll write to Charles again, I think he is very busy...

Again Thanks!! ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 05, 2006, 06:27:50 AM
Oh Monarchist, are you still somewhere here??? :-/


It seems to me that there is nobody interested in a discussion about the Bonaparte family! :'(


What a pity, because I am so fond of them ::)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Prince_Christopher on April 05, 2006, 01:59:28 PM
Quote
It seems to me that there is nobody interested in a discussion about the Bonaparte family!


I am interested, they are one of my favorite families.

I am currently rereading Marie Bonaparte: A Life, by Celia Bertin, although there is already a large thread devoted to this lady on the Greek thread.

I also have a bio of Mathilde Bonaparte, waiting to be read....

Both were extraordinary characters....as were many other members of the family.

I would like to learn more about some of the lesser known members of the family, and maybe discuss those Bonapartes who married into other legitamate royal and noble families.  So many of them managed to make advantageous marriages.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 07, 2006, 09:41:33 AM
Hello,

Thanks for your answer.
You are right, Marie Bonaparte, who was already discussed here was really a very interesting and fascinating person, especially how she connected sciene with nobility, and the most insteresting was to me, that she completely changed her life in the fourties of her life.
I had once a phone call with her grandson Carlo Alessandro della Torre a Tasso, son of Eugenie of Greece (Marie Bonapartes and Prince Georgs daughter) and of Raimondo della Torre e Tasso. He is a very kind and "simple" person, even if he has an own castle at Triest together with his wife Veronique Lantz, and his children, Massimiliano, Dimitri and Constanza.
He asked me to visit it once...but in general the most Bonaparte descendants are very busy people 8-)
So a longer contact is not easy. I never achieved it (until now) The most of the Bonaparte descendants today (especially those of Lucien Bonaparte) married over the female lines into the families of Italian (or french) counts. Seeing the whole genealogy (for example at "Wordroots") it shows that there are almost more Italian descendants!
One descendant of Lucien (Prince of Canino) and Joseph Bonaparte (former king of Spain) married in 1952 the granddaugher of Benito Mussolini (I made a topic here, but I think the moste people avoid it...  :-X. Alessandros niece was not very "communicative" concerning this facts, when I tried to ask her :-?
My favourite of today in Prince Charles Napoleon I must say. But his views are sometimes discussed, especially by the conservative people of Corsica. When Charles wanted to become deputy major there some people (so I have read) held the oponion that he is not the right person for this task, because in his life, which he had spend mostly in France (and not Corsica) he was not concerned enough with Corsicas special problems (razzism, terrorism...). It´s quite that Charles doesn´t call himself a Bonapartist, he does not belong at all to the conservatives , but to the lefts (almost a bit socialist).
His views are very open and modern, and I think  this was also with a reason for his disheritage by his father Louis (1914-97), who must have been completely different in his views and his caracter concerning being a Bonaparte-heir of the 20 the century. Louis also disliked very much Charles divorce from Beatrice of Bourbon-Sicily and his remarriage with the civil Corsican Lady Francoise Valliccioni...
But there where also many other difficulties between father and son (you can read in interviews of Charles) From his appearance I also like Charles, for me he looks so elegant because of his size. He must be almost two metres (I think, 1,95, I have read). His face is very friendly and nice (so for me) ::)

I would be interested to know what others of this discussion board think of Charles and his tasks and work for Corsica. Should he continue it and should be have more political influence as a Bonaparte?
I have also read that he wants to become a member of the European Parliament (like Otto von Habsburg 8-)

Interesting are also his ansistors, he is not only a direct descendant of Jerome Bonaparte (king of Westphalia under Napoleon I.) , but also greatgrandson of Leopold II of the Belgians,  a direct descendant of Louis Philippe and of Louis XIV. He has as much Bourbon-blood as the count of Paris for example and I think, that´s interesting, because the Bonapartes and the Bourbons were always enemies! And his children are also half Bourbon and half Bonaparte (as it was already said here) through their mothers side (Beatrice)
Charles has also a lot of Habsburg ansistors, all known Habsburg emperors (until Franz I/II) are his ansistors ::)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 09, 2006, 10:26:15 AM
...But it seems noone is really interested in this.... :-[
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 19, 2006, 08:40:40 AM
I ask myself where and who was the person, who wanted to discuss about relatives of Bonaparte here :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 26, 2006, 01:18:58 PM
BAFFLING!!!! What should one tell Charles napoleon, the poor?? Noone is interested in a discussion! :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 01, 2006, 05:29:49 PM
HIH The Prince Napoléon has an adopted third daughter in addition to his son and two daughters. Anh (? HIH Anh, Princess Napoléon) was born in Saïgon, Vietnam in 1998. If you want to see a small picture of the girl look on Charles' political website:

http://www.charlesnapoleon.com/pages/artic...ubrique=famille
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 01, 2006, 05:42:13 PM
Quote
I would be interested to know what others of this discussion board think of Charles and his tasks and work for Corsica. Should he continue it and should be have more political influence as a Bonaparte?
I have also read that he wants to become a member of the European Parliament (like Otto von Habsburg 8-)

As you pointed out since Charles is a socialist perhaps it isn't best for the Bonapartist cause (if one exists at all) for him to get really involved in the French political scene. And I personally think that since it is his heritage that he should want to nuture Bonapartist causes, but obviously Charles has his own ideas. Although I disagree with alot of what he has done, I think he did monarchists a huge favor by marring a Bourbon princess, inspite of the fact that he has since divorced her and married the mother of his illegitimate child.

As to Charles' other family members, I think it would be wonderful if Prince Jérôme (who is nearing fifty) were to marry, but alas it doesn't seem as if that will ever happen. Maybe Caroline will marry a royal, that would certainly be interesting.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 03, 2006, 12:14:36 PM
You have written, that you disagree with many things that the modern Bonaparte did, I would like to which things you mean. ::)
 Maybe you have followed his tasks in the nearest past better than me, may be you have to add some imformation that I do not know. What exactly do you mean, where you disagree?
It would interest me a lot, as there are not many people, who are interested in this topic (so I think)

Would be happy for an answer.  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 03, 2006, 07:14:07 PM
Quote
You have written, that you disagree with many things that the modern Bonaparte did, I would like to which things you mean. ::)
 Maybe you have followed his tasks in the nearest past better than me, may be you have to add some imformation that I do not know. What exactly do you mean, where you disagree?
It would interest me a lot, as there are not many people, who are interested in this topic (so I think)

I over-exaggerated ;). I just think that it would have been more respectable for someone of his position (but since he’s a republican he probably doesn’t mind too much) to have married Sophie’s mother perhaps when he found out that the child was coming. His socialism irks me a little (but a politician has to do what a politician has to do, doesn’t he?). I do hope that he is successful in his current campaign.

It is quite hard to find any information about Charles (in English at least). Do you know of any good sources?

His ex-wife, HRH Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, has co-authored a new book that can be found on Amazon.fr entitled “Votre Mariage Royale.” It was actually just published this April, I believe. What is Beatrice's occupation?




Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 03, 2006, 07:23:42 PM
Is Prince Charles wealthy? In Royalty in Exile The Inside Stories of the Ex-Majesties of Europe the author led me to believe that Prince Louis was rather well off. Like he had a yacht and everything. I was just curious because I know that Charles's brother is a librarian and I wasn't sure if that meant that the small fortune that Louis possessed is no longer in existence (or maybe he just left it all to the eldest son?).
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 04, 2006, 02:24:41 AM
Quote
Is Prince Charles wealthy? In Royalty in Exile The Inside Stories of the Ex-Majesties of Europe the author led me to believe that Prince Louis was rather well off. Like he had a yacht and everything. I was just curious because I know that Charles's brother is a librarian and I wasn't sure if that meant that the small fortune that Louis possessed is no longer in existence (or maybe he just left it all to the eldest son?).

Dear Benjamin,

Unfortunately I do not exactly know, how rich Louis Napoleon was, but the pictures, I have found in old magazines of "Point de Vue" show me a rather well off living. In those newspapers, I all got them at Ebay, there are many articles and descriptions about their living, unfortunately I do not speak french, only italian and Portuguese, so I do not understand every single word sometimes, but I think Louis family as heir of the Bonaparte family was quite rich: The family of Louis Napoleon seem to have owned (I think so) at least two different chateaus, the most important was the one at Prangins, which is was very often mentioned in the old point de vue papers. There Louis had a great salon als a big Library, which is shown there.  I will look up for more infos, if you want.
What concerns Charles himself, I do not know, as he is socialist, he may does not show richness that much. It seems to me for him is it not so important, his father was much more conservative. The old point de vues show him and his wife Alix several times posing before their portrait of Napoleon, which was hanging in their Pranings salon... How the heritage between the children of Louis was divides I do not exactly know, but would be interested in more infos. I did not know that Jerome is a librarian, there are only small infos on him, as he is not married and may be not so important for the magazines, it´s a pity....
I will try to send a Prangins picture here.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 04, 2006, 02:42:10 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0178.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0177.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 04, 2006, 02:44:41 AM
I think, this already says something about their living...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 04, 2006, 09:52:12 AM
Concerning your questions about information about Charles, I must say most of the infos about Charles I found in the internet, before I had internet, I only knew Charles name from the table of Napoleon descendants in the book from Jean Pierre Rioux "The Bonapartes". It´s a good book, but it is only about Napoleon and his family at the time of Napoleon I and Napoleon III, but there are good tables of decendsants of the different siblings of the emperor. In the internet there are some very interesting interviews with Charles, some are quite profound, I can look for the internet pages, but you will also find them if you use "google" Often they are already a bit older, I have collected some of them.
It´s a pity I think, that I have never seen any good picture of Jean Christophe, his son, there are only some picures about Caroline, but also no picture of his youngest daughter Sophie. Any idea where to find? I wrote to him once, but I think he is too busy, he was kind and wrote that he would give me an interview, but he never wrote back to me after that.
Very good infos and pictures, but more about Louis, are in old examples of the point de Vue magazine. I have bought them at Ebay. I only have one new version of point de Vue and I must say in earlier times the magazine seems to have been much better and more profound and historical orientated than today. Now there are almost only pictures about stars and royals and no good descriptions anymore-a bit superficial in my opinion, maybe it has to fit to our "society of fun" today :-X
I once saw Charles in a film about Corsica and I like his appearance, I must say, the seemed very friendly in this film, when he spoke...
Where did you get that he married Francoise Valliccioni only because child Sophie was coming? Is it true? Maybe, but I haven´t read it until now....
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 04, 2006, 04:53:09 PM
Very interesting information. Thank you Britt 25 ! Merci !
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 04, 2006, 06:46:45 PM
Quote
Where did you get that he married Francoise Valliccioni only because child Sophie was coming? Is it true? Maybe, but I haven´t read it until now....

I'm sorry Britt, I must not have been clear on what I was saying. I meant to say that I thought it would have been a little more respectable if Charles had married Francoise when he found out that she was pregnant by him. Sort of like Emanuel Filiberto did with Clothide. But it is nice that in time Charles has married Francoise anyways and has given Sophie a father, that's actually very admirable (considering that he didn't have to recognize her as his child).

And thanks so much for the wonderful pictures :), you are quite right, they do indeed give a rare glimpse into the lives of the modern Bonapartes.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 04, 2006, 07:15:13 PM
Quote
It´s a pity I think, that I have never seen any good picture of Jean Christophe, his son, there are only some picures about Caroline, but also no picture of his youngest daughter Sophie. Any idea where to find?

I do apologize, the link I posted to Charles's website doesn't work anymore (just realized it when I clicked on it). His political website had a page on his family and it had a one picture each of Charles, his wife, two daughters (plus Anh, forgot about her), and son. I will see if I can find a link to his webpage that actually works.

Okay, here it is Britt: go to http://www.charlesnapoleon.com/pages/article.asp?numero=17&rubrique=famille. I know the pictures are quite small, but at least you can see Sophie ;) and the rest of the family. But Sophie has her hand in front of her face so it sort of ruins the picture. Oh well
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 04, 2006, 07:29:34 PM
Quote
I wrote to him once, but I think he is too busy, he was kind and wrote that he would give me an interview, but he never wrote back to me after that.

Have you tried Princess Alix, or is it her policy not to do interviews?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 03:29:45 AM
Hi,

No I did not try to interview Alix, I only once wrote to Charles. Yes, I was quite kind and told me, he could also speak german, and it would be allright to him to answer questions, but he never wrote back. I think, he simply forgot it because he has a lot to do, I think he is very kind and and in general he gives intervies, there is also the problem that he is sometimes in France  and sometimes in Corsica, and so he maybe did not read the further Emails of mine.
But on his new website there is also a contact adress. Its a pity that it is so difficult to get to know such kind of people they are always to busy.

One question: Are you really sure that in Charles little family picture there is Sophie? I have read that she was born in 1992 and the person with the glasses and the hand in front of the mouth looks older for me...but I am not sure as the picture is very very small.
I have also a picture of Charles with some young children, I will try to send it, maybe anyone can try to identify the people....
 I think the first child is his son, but the others? Is the second maybe Sophie??? And the third girl...?

Picture is coming later...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 03:38:12 AM
Please look here, maybe anyone can identify the children...first must be his son...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000369987-005.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 04:25:12 AM
Some picture of Prangins living:

Workingroom of Louis Napoleon:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0219.jpg)


Compare:
Charles´ working rooms seems to be a little different... ;)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000369987-004.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 04:34:44 AM
Example of the lifestyle of the family of Louis Napoleon, Pragins etc.:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0220.jpg)








Jean Christophe and sister:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Kopievonnapoleon.jpg)


Caroline and her mother Beatrice on a festival of the organisation of Hugo Capet, where Beatrice is some kind of chief and has  special position:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/image56.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 04:43:02 AM
One picture didn´t work, I hope it works now... ::)

Prangins living....


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0220.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 05, 2006, 04:44:47 AM
Sorry the wrong one, I meant this:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0218.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 14, 2006, 05:08:52 PM
Young prince Napoléon and his sister Princess Caroline at their grand mother's funeral, Paris 2005.
Their grand mother was Duchess de Castro née Chantal de Chevron-Villette, wife of Prince Ferdinand of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/napo.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 14, 2006, 05:18:14 PM
Chantal of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, Duchess of Castro 1925-2005

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/castro.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 02:20:43 AM
Very nice pictures, thanks, may I ask where you found the picture with Prince Jean Christophe??

The duchess of Castro picture is also nice, it bears a resemblence to her daughter Beatrice in my view :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 02:24:48 AM
Frimousse, are you maybe able to identify the picture with Charles and the children, which I have send above?

I am not sure if the girl, sitting "on" Charles maybe Sophie or not?? The same with the girl on the right side? Is she maybe a friend of Charles children or maybe a niece of him? -Maybe a daughter of one of his two sisters??  

I will send the picture again that you see which one I mean
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 15, 2006, 02:26:43 AM
You are welcome Britt.25. It is taken from your beloved Point de Vue Magazine N° 2967 June 1st 2005.
I can't recognize the little girl on his laps...
prince Jean Christophe is definitely on the left, the girl on the right might be Princess Caroline, but her nose seems different now ??
Sorry dear Britt...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 02:32:59 AM
Thanks!! Are there more pictures of Jean Christ. in this magazine?

Here is the picture with CHarles and the children, which I had already send, are you able to identify the children?
Is the little girl maybe Sophie, his youngest daughter? and the girl on the right side??? Maybe Charles niece or simply a friend of his children???


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000369987-005.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 15, 2006, 02:44:05 AM
Caroline and her grand mother Princess Napoléon...let's see her profile ?


(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/caroline.jpg)

Might be her I guess...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: frimousse on May 15, 2006, 02:52:02 AM
Prince Jean Christophe and his uncle Duke of Bourbon-Calabre

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/napo1.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 02:55:39 AM
Very nice, thanks and what about the Charles picture with the children? Sorry for the same question, but I would be very interested in the identification, maybe the girl on the right is a niece of Charles? Could be the daughter of his sister??
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 03:02:50 AM
Sorry, sorry, you had already answered my question, sorry... :P

I did not read it!!!!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2006, 03:05:47 AM
No, I don´t think on the right is Princess Caroline, she looks different, but somewhere this face reminds me a little of Charles sister Catherine. But I can also be wrong....
The girl maybe not Caroline, because Jean is younger than her and the girl there seems to be younger than Jean Christ. in my view...
Strange strange....
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 27, 2006, 09:51:39 AM
Did the Princess (Alix) Napoléon attend any of the Belgian royal weddings?

I ask this because I know that her husband went to his cousin Baudouin's funeral, and I didn't know if the Princess has been invited to any of the marriages of Albert's children.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 27, 2006, 11:34:10 PM
I didn’t know exactly how they are related, but Charles, Prince Napoleon, and his ex-wife Princess Beatrice of the Two Sicilies are 5th cousins through King Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies.

Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies - Maria Amelia of Naples and Sicily - Louise d’Orleans - Leopold II of the Belgians - Clementine of Belgium - Louis, Prince Napoleon - Charles, Prince Napoleon

Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies - Francesco I of the Two Sicilies - Ferdinando II of the Two Sicilies - Alfonso of the Two Sicilies, Count of Caserta - Ranieri of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro - Ferdinand of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro - Princess Beatrice of the Two Sicilies

The former spouses are also 5th cousins once removed, again through King Ferdinando I.

Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies - Luisa of Naples and Sicily - Maria Theresia of Austria, Princess of Tuscany - Vittorio Emanuele II of Italy - Clothilde of Savoy - Victor, Prince Napoleon - Louis, Prince Napoleon - Charles, Prince Napoleon

Ferdinando I of the Two Sicilies - Francesco I of the Two Sicilies - Ferdinando II of the Two Sicilies - Alfonso of the Two Sicilies, Count of Caserta - Ranieri of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro - Ferdinand of the Two Sicilies, Duke of Castro - Princess Beatrice of the Two Sicilies
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 27, 2006, 11:50:06 PM
Victor, Prince Napoleon, and his wife, Clementine of Belgium, were 4th cousins once removed.

Ferdinand Albrecht II of Brunswick - Karl I of Brunswick - Karl II of Brunswick - Auguste of Brunswick - Catherine of Wurttemberg - Prince Napoleon Bonaparte - Victor, Prince Napoleon

Ferdinand Albrecht II of Brunswick - Sophie Antonie of Brunswick - Franz of Saxe-Coburg - Leopold I of the Belgians - Leopold II of the Belgians - Clementine of Belgium
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 28, 2006, 12:27:53 AM
Plon-Plon and his wife Clothide were 5th cousins.

Ludwig Rudolf of Brunwick - Antoinette Amalie of Brunswick - Karl I of Brunswick - Karl II of Brunswick - Auguste of Brunswick - Catherine of Wurttemberg - Prince Napoleon Bonaparte

Ludwig Rudolf of Brunswick - Elisabeth Christine of Brunswick - Maria Theresa of Austria, Queen of Hungary and Bohemia - Leopold II of the Holy Roman Empire - Rainer of Austria - Adelheid of Austria - Princess Clothide
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 28, 2006, 07:51:50 AM
Yes that is very interesting how they are related, it´s also very interesting in my opinion that "Plon-Plons" mother Catherine of Württemberg was a direct descendant of the English kings. Her grandmother Augusta was the sister of king George III. of England (both children of Frederik Lewis), who was one of the enemies of emperor Napoleon Bonaparte!  Somewhere this is quite funny, so Prince Napoleon descends from Napoleons brother Jerome and on the other side from the English, who Napoleon hated to much!!! (Fun on St. Helena ;D)

To your question concerning Princess Napoleon and her presence at belgian Royal marriages , I must say at the moment I am not so well imformed what concerns recent ceremonies. Here in Germany material about this topic is very hard to get.
But in the book " La livre de la famille imperiale" there are several examples for formal meetings between Prince Louis Napoleon, his family, and their relatives from Belgium. When the siblings Catherine and Charles were baptized there were also some people of the belgian royal family attending it: S.M. the queen Elisabeth of Belgium for example, and some other members of the family, too. There are some other occasations where they met the Belgian relatives and there are also pictures of them. On page 274 in the mentioned book  there is a picture, where Louis Napoleon and his wife Alix are eating together with the Princess Paola of Belgium, the grand-Duc of Luxembourg, the grandduchess of Luxembourg and some other members of the family of Belgium and Luxembourg.  On the following page there are is a nice coloured picture where the queen Fabiola is walking to together with Prince and Princess Napoleon through the garden at Prangins. Ii is mentioned that the picture was taken by the king of Belgium himself, so he must have been present, too. The other occasions show the Napoleon family with other personalities like the son of the spanish Alfonso III. or politicians of that time. How close the relationship of the Napoleon family to the belgian royal family really was, I do not exactly know, but they must have had quite a good contact. What concerns recent weddings and so on, I try to inform myself a bit more (sometimes not easy with the infos here in Germany)
If you find something concerning this question, I would be interested if you post it here. Sorry that I cannot give you more useful infos now! ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 28, 2006, 02:10:14 PM
Relationship of Jean Christophe Louis Ferdinand Alberic, Prince Napoléon to the reigning sovereigns of Europe.

J-C and King Albert II are 3rd cousins once removed.
J-C and King Harald V are 4th cousins.
J-C and Grand Duke Henri are 4th cousins.
J-C and Queen Elizabeth II are 5th cousins.
J-C and King Carl XVI Gustaf are 5th cousins.
J-C and Queen Margrethe II are 5th cousins.
J-C and Prince Hans Adam II are 5th cousins.
J-C and King Juan Carlos I are 5th cousins once removed.
J-C and Queen Beatrix are 6th cousins.

I couldn't find how Jean and Prince Albert II are related.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 28, 2006, 02:25:26 PM
Jean-Christophe is a 4th cousin once removed of Prince Henri d'Orléans, Comte de Paris.

He is also a 5th cousin of Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martinez.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 28, 2006, 04:59:35 PM
This is indeed a very interesting study what you did! :) :)

And you are very well informed!! :)

For me it´s such a pity that despite of those relationships to important and well known royals, press reports and other infos on Jean Christophe are very rare, whereas other princes and princesses (also at this age, Jean must be now almost twenty) go regularly through the press. I ask myself what is the reason for this not very well known family. Why there are so interesting relations, but nobody is interested in them?
I hardly ever found useful infos or pictures of Jean Christophe. I almost don´t know anything him and about his life! It would interest me: What kind of young man is he? How is his character? Which interests does he have and how does he see his heritage as young man of nineteen? All these things are never to find. Or do you know anything where to find infos on him? I never found anything useful, and it´s a pity, I think.  

And: Thanks, Benjamin, that you make your contributions here!!! ;)
It seems to me there´s at the moment nobody else, who is interested...so THANKS!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 28, 2006, 05:49:52 PM
Dear Britta,

I'm glad that you liked what I myself only recently found out :). I just thought it would be rather interesting to see how Jean ties in to the other European Royal Families, so I used Leo van de Pas's Genealogics website (http://www.genealogics.org/index.php) plus this quite useful family "relationship" calculator (http://stevemorse.org/relation/calculator.html). It was all quite fun and only took a few hours :D.

Jean-Christophe is related to most of the sovereigns through his great-grandmother, Princess Clementine, however he was related to Juan Carlos, for example, only through his mother Beatrice.

It is quite sad that there is barely any information on Jean-Christophe and his elder sister for that matter. It will be very interesting to see who the pair ends up marrying in the future.

And, Britta, I greatly value your contributions on the subject of the modern Bonapartes. You are an excellent source of information, photos, etc on the subject :). I'm afraid I don't know of any information about Jean :(. Oh well, I'm sure that when he becomes the Prince Napoleon that there will be more information available about him.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 28, 2006, 06:48:02 PM
Jean Christophe and the Prince of Naples are 3rd cousins once removed.
Jean Christophe and ex-King Simeon II are 4th cousins once removed.
Jean Christophe and King Constantine II are 4th cousins once removed.
Jean Christophe and the Duke of Braganza are 4th cousins twice removed.
Jean Christophe and King Michael I are 5th cousins.
Jean Christophe and Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna are 5th cousins.
Jean Christophe and Crown Prince Alexander are 5th cousins once removed.
Jean Christophe and Otto von Habsburg are 5th cousins once removed.
Jean Christophe and Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia are 5th cousins once removed.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 29, 2006, 02:45:46 AM
At the moment I can only say, phantastic information and genealogy studies of you!
I have to do this myself once, I am very impressed , also that you are interested in this!
 At the moment I can´t contribute any better infos!  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 10, 2006, 09:34:11 PM
Just curious, but which parent received custody of the two children when Charles and Beatrice divorced?

And is it known why they divorced?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 10, 2006, 09:49:11 PM
Charles Napoléon's aunt, HIH Princess Marie Clothide Eugénie Alberte Laetitia Généviève (1912-1996), who married Count Serge de Witte and had ten children:

(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/bonaparte/1912%20Clothilde-01.JPG)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2006, 09:48:15 AM
Hello Benjamin, very nice to read again of you :)


Unfortunately I do not know, who got custody of the children, when Charles Napoleon and his wife Beatrice divorced. They divorced in 1989, that means in other words, when Caroline was nine and her brother Jean Christ. only three! I have no information about who took care of the children then.
But mother Beatrice has a chief position in some interesting historical events and organisation, especially one of Hughues Capet (there are special internetpages about these celebreties, I have to look up the clear expression) and there where several festivals over years where she appeared with her daughter. The son was never with her on those festivals (so it seems to me) as there are no pictures of him. To me it appears (but only carefully supposed) that he relationship of Caroline and her mother was very good and close after the divorce of the parents  (she appeared so often togehter with her)
I think, Charles got his own way then? In 1996 he married the civil Corsican Francoise Valliccioni.
One question:
You have sent a nice and very small picture of Charles Napoleon, Sophie and Francoise together. I have never seen the family together! Where did you get this??? It would interest me a lot. On the official site of Charles Napoleon this picture is not there, is it?

Yes, I know the picture of Clothilde, which you have sent. It is very nice, I have bought this postcard and have a reproduction at home. She was 18 there in 1930 and for me she is almost the "image" of her grandmother Clothilde (the same name!), the mother of her father Victor Napoleon!
Of the ten children I know only pictures of two, and one of this is not very clear. Baudoin the Witt is the famous owner of the menoir "Pommerie", which has just opened as a very interesting museum about the napoloenic heritage (The must have inheritated a lot and this is all to see for publicity now). I have written to him because of my interest, but he hardly got my mails and answered only oncee (you must think I am bit crazy to write to different people of the Bonaparte family, but usually a contact is very hard).
Jerome de Witt is a famous swiss clock maker, there is also an interesting page. I will try to send an image here. His niece Laetitia de Witt has a doctor-position at the Sorbonne, at the institute about Napoleonic history and he has recently published an interesting research work about her ansistor Victor Napoleon....!
Yes I have painted many of the Bonapartes, even Charles Napoleon, but the picture is not so good, the children are coming later. I also draw many other people, so I did not have the time until now. :)
  
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 01:13:45 PM
Hello Britta,

The picture is from Royauté 2. You are right, it isn't found on Charles's website.

Indeed I just found that website that you are talking about that has Beatrice of Bourbon-Sicilies on it. I'll post some of the pictures here so others can see them.

That is indeed a very nice picture of Marie-Clothide. Don't you think that she is a bit prettier than her grandmother though?

Thanks for all the information on the de Witt family :).
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2006, 01:39:26 PM
Yes, you are right, especially on this picture Clothilde is very beautiful and more beautiful than her granny. But around the eyes she´s very similar, especially if you compare her with her mother you don´t see that much resemblence to her (in my opinion), but to her grandmother from her fathers side. On child -pictures Clothilde almost looks like the "old" Clothilde to me, not that much her brother. But yes, she is more pretty, this is also my opinion.
Do you have any pictures of her when she was older? I don´t have any.  ::)
Whereas Louis is often mentioned in old point de Vue magazines, I have never found anything on Clothilde de Witt.



Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 01:48:39 PM
Pictures of the ex-wife of the Prince Napoléon:

(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier21/pic6.jpg)
The Princesses Anne and Béatrice de Bourbon-Sicilies with the Duchesse de La Rochefoucauld at the Soirée Louis XV in 1997

(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier23/pic11.jpg)
Princess Béatrice de Bourbon-Sicilies, Madame la Comtesse de Paris, and on the far right Queen Fadila of Egypt (Princess Fadila since 1999) at the Soirée Hugues Capet in 1996

(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier26/pic15.jpg)
Madame la Comtesse de Paris, Princesse Béatrice de Bourbon-Sicilies, Prince Michel d'Orléans, and Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans at the Soirée Henri IV in 1994

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 01:55:13 PM
Quote
Sorry some damage with my PC-connection :-[

Hopefully you can get it fixed ;).

And I'm afraid I don't know of any adult pictures of Marie-Clothide :(. Maybe you could contact one of her descendants and get one?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 02:07:39 PM
Béatrice de Bourbon-Sicilies with her mother the Duchess of Castro:
(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier6/pic11.jpg)

I like this photo:
(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier6/pic45.jpg)

Both pictures are from the 6th Anniversary of the L'Association Unité Capétienne in 2000.
 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 02:10:53 PM
I wonder if the Bonaparte children are close to the Murats at all?

I find it sort of humorous that since they have no real "Bonaparte" cousins, Jean-Christophe and Caroline have sort of had to associate with the Orleans and Bourbon families in order to be around royal relatives.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2006, 02:21:11 PM
Charles, Prince Napoléon published a book last month, Les Bonaparte: Des esprits rebelles.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 13, 2006, 02:28:21 AM
Do you know, if this book is also available in other countries like Germany and in a translation? ;)

I fear no :-/
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 13, 2006, 04:33:09 AM

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pm_dw_portrait.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/tart_0311_p70_02.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 13, 2006, 04:34:18 AM
Jerome de Witt, son of Clothilde, cousin I. grade of present Charles Napoleon ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 13, 2006, 09:01:34 AM
Quote
Do you know, if this book is also available in other countries like Germany and in a translation? ;)

I fear no :-/

I'm afraid the book is only available in French (doubt that it will be translated).

However you can buy it on http://www.amazon.fr
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 19, 2006, 03:50:33 PM
Thanks for your nice postings...do you know if there are translated any other books of Charles?

I will try to contact him during the next time...

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 24, 2006, 10:06:02 AM
Actually, I think that this recent book is the only one that Charles has written.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 24, 2006, 12:41:31 PM
Charles Napoleon has already published the following book, I would have to look up the exact date when it firstly went for selling (I am not sure, but I suggest it was last year or two years ago)
But for my part I do not think that it is translated in other languages or is sold among other countries. But I can also be wrong. The topic sounds interesting, I must confess, it deals with the comparison (or at last the political view) of the two Corsican citizens, Napoleon and Pascale Paoli, who is said to have been a great example to young Napoleon, when he was still living in Corsica and attending school there.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/couvbonaparte.jpg)





Here Charles was signing his new book on the Bonaparte and Paoli topic before selling it. It may be at Ajaccio, his "second home" apart from France, as the picture shows also a brach of the mimosa tree next to him, which is typical for mediterranean countries.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 24, 2006, 12:47:35 PM
Also quite interesting: The handwriting of Charles. This was a slogan concerning one of his political positions, I think.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/manuscrit.gif)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 24, 2006, 12:50:15 PM
Also quite interesting: The handwriting of Charles. This was a slogan concerning one of his political positions, I think.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/manuscrit.gif)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 26, 2006, 12:50:17 PM
Thirteen year old Louis, father of Charles, with his dog :)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0226.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Monarchist on July 01, 2006, 03:45:45 PM
He looks so happy on that picture! And his dog is adorable.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 01, 2006, 03:54:43 PM
I also like him very much, especially when he was young. Clementine once shall have said (or written?): "Louis is always smiling and singing, only not when he has to do his work for school!"

As adult I like his son Charles more, he is more charismatic to me and has some kind of charme, which must come from his mother Alix. :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 01, 2006, 07:27:17 PM
Thanks for that wonderful picture Britta :).

Here is a little information about his son Jérôme (sorry for the rather messed-up English translation):

"As to Prince Jérôme NAPOLEON, I can only underline his extreme discretion. Prince Jerome, always unmarried, takes part little in the Napoleonic demonstrations (sometimes with the deposit of sheaf to the Invalids on May 5, hardly more). In September 1998, I had organized with the research and Studies Center on the Bonapartism, a conference on  Bonapartism with Holy-Suzanne (Doubs). Prince Jerome whom I had  solicited, had come there willingly. He chaired the conferences and expressed - what I was unaware of still - a perfect knowledge of the subject and political and social environment of the company. I must add that Prince Jerome is an attaching personality strong, very sensitive and particularly nice. All participants in the day, the conference, the dinner, the visits, which included journalists, the elected officials… greatly enjoyed his presence. Indeed, he resides in Switzerland (half of the year in Geneva, the other half in the family residence of Prangins towards Nyon). He is a librarian with the World Health Organization (WHO) of Geneva."

Or the post in its original French:
"Pour le Prince Jérôme NAPOLEON, nous ne pouvons que souligner son extrême  discrétion. Le Prince Jérôme, toujours célibataire, participe peu aux  manifestations napoléoniennes (quelquefois au dépôt de gerbe aux Invalides  le 5 mai, guère plus). En septembre 1998, j'avais organisé avec le Centre  d'Etudes et de recherches sur le Bonapartisme, un colloque sur le  Bonapartisme à Sainte-Suzanne (Doubs). Le Prince Jérôme que j'avais  sollicité, s'y était plié de bonne grâce. Il a présidé les conférences et  manifesté - ce que j'ignorais encore - une parfaite connaissance du sujet  et de l'environnement politique et social de la société. Et, pour ne rien  gâter, je dois ajouter que le Prince Jérôme est une personnalité fort  attachante, très sensible et tout particulièrement gentille. Tous les  participants à la journée, au colloque, au dîner, aux visites, les  journalistes, les élus... ont été enchantés de sa présence.  En effet, il réside en Suisse (à moitié à Genève , l'autre moitié dans la  résidence familiale de Prangins vers Nyon). Il est bibliothécaire à  l'Organisation Mondiale de la Santé (OMS) de Genève."

Source: post on Royauté in March 2001 by Thierry Choffat, Président du Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches sur le Bonapartisme
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 01, 2006, 08:11:34 PM
The way that Louis is smiling in that photo makes him sort of resemble his third-cousin Marie, I think.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 01, 2006, 08:49:29 PM
Ahnenreihe of Jean-Christophe Louis Ferdinand Albéric

1. Prince Jean-Christophe (1986)

2. Charles Napoléon, Prince Napoléon, Chef de la Maison Impériale
Française (1950) x 1978 (div.89)
3. Princesse Béatrice de Bourbon-Siciles (1950)

4. Louis, Prince Napoléon, Chef de la Maison Impériale Française
(1914-1996) x 1949
5. Alix de Foresta (1926)
6. Ferdinand, duc de Castro, Chef de la Maison Royale des Deux-Siciles
(1926) x 1948
7. Chantal de Chevron-Villette (1925)

8. Victor, Prince Napoléon, Chef de la Maison Impériale Française
(1862-1929) x 1910
9. Princesse Clémentine de Belgique (1872-1955)
10. Comte Albéric de Foresta (1895+) x 1925
11. Geneviève Frédet (1904-1994)
12. Rénier, duc de Castro, Chef de la Maison Royale des Deux-Siciles
(1883-1973) x 1923
13. Comtesse Caroline Zamoyska (1896-1968)
14. Comte Pierre de Chevron-Villette (1885-1954) x 1919
15. Marie de Colbert-Cannet (1895-1973)

16. Napoléon-Joseph, Prince Napoléon, Chef de la Maison Impériale
Française (1822-1891) x 1859
17. Princesse Clotilde de Savoie(1843-1911)
18. Léopold II, Roi des Belges (1835-1909) x 1853
19. Archiduchesse Marie-Henriette d'Autriche (1836-1902)
20. Henri-Marie de Foresta, Marquis de La Roquette (1855-1944) x 1888
21. Thérèse de Bonet d'Oléon (1865-1964)
22. Henri Jean Pierre Jude Frédet, industriel (1877-1955) x 1901
23. Hélène Jeanne Léonie Bonnet (1882+)
24. Alphonse, Comte de Caserte, Chef de la Maison Royale des
Deux-Siciles (1841-1934) x 1868
25. Princesse Antoinette de Bourbon-Siciles (1851-1938)
26. André, Comte Zamoyski (1852-1927) x 1885
27. Princesse Caroline de Bourbon-Siciles (1856-1941)
28. Charles-Albert, Comte de Chevron-Villette (1843-1922) x 1875
29. Louise Fromentier de Saint-Charles (1856-1930)
30. Edouard, Marquis de Colbert du Cannet (1858-1928) x 1893
31. Anne-Marie Brossier de La Roullière (1866-1944)

32. Jérôme Bonaparte, Roi de Westphalie (1784-1860) x 1807
33. Princesse Catherine de Wurtemberg (1783-(1835)
34. Victor-Emmanuel II, Roi d'Italie (1820-1878) x 1842
35. Archiduchesse Adélaïde d'Autriche (1822-1855)
36. Léopold Ier, Roi des Belges (1790-1865) x 1832
37. Princesse Louise d'Orléans (1812-1850)
38. Archiduc Joseph d'Autriche, Palatin de Hongrie (1776-1847) x 1919
39. Princesse Marie-Dorothée de Wurtemberg (1797-1845)
40. Maxence de Foresta, Marquis de La Roquette (817-1888) x 1843
41. Eugénie Sophie Caroline Mathilde de Bully (1819-1902)
42. Henri Joseph Xavier de Bonet d'Oléon (1823-1890) x 1850
43. Emma Granier (1831-1887)
44. Amable Alfred Frédet (1829-1904à x 1865
45. Eugénie Augustine Eulalie Berthe Chevrant (1847-1900)
46. Léon Cyprien Bonnet (1825-1892) x 1865
47. Hélène Côte (1839-1910)
48. Ferdinand II, Roi des Deux-Siciles (1810-1859) x 1837
49. Archiduchesse Marie-Thérèse d'Autriche (1816-1867)
50. Prince François de Paule de Bourbon-Siciles, Comte de Trapani
(1827-1892) x 1850
51. Archiduchesse Marie-Isabelle d'Autriche-Toscane (1834-1901)
52. Stanislas, Comte Zamoyski (1820-1889) x 1851
53. Rose Potocka (1831-1890)
54=50
55=51
56. Théophile Victor, Comte de Chevron-Villette (1806-1886) x 1842
57. Idalie de Pougny de Monthoux (1816-1871)
58. Henri Fromentin de Saint-Charles (1826+) x 1854
59. Clémence Delocre (1831+)
60. Edouard, Comte de Colbert du Cannet (1828-1859) x 1852
61. Caroline de Colbert-Turgis (1829-1888)
62. Etienne (Stéphane) Brossier, Baron de La Roullière (1829-1867) x
1855
63. Louise Bayon de Libertat (1829+)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 03:12:13 AM
Thanks for the phantastic information! :) :)
 The ansistor research by you is very interesting! Did you do it by yourself or copy it??? Such a lot of work!!! In the Decaux book there is a picture of Alix´parents, I´ll try to send it...
And concerning Jerome: That´s indeed a very interesting comment on him that you send, yes it always seemed to me that he is more in the "background" than his brother Charles and only takes part in a few  events concerning Napoleon. It´s such a pity that he is not married. To me he is not as charismatic as his brother Charles, but I think he is good person. I must say. these kind of people, which do not always make scandals for the newspapers etc I often estimate more than others.
I did not know that Jerome was or is a librarian. I have never seen Charles and his brother doing anything togehter in the recent times. They seem to go different ways, Jerome is much less involved in politics l, but seems to be a very intelligent person.  ;)
One question, where did you find this source? It is from a french magazine or newspaper of from a book? It would interest me, is it quite recent?
Again thanks a lot! ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 03:13:57 AM
Oh, sorry for the question, the source was already mentioned by you 8-)
Thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: José on July 02, 2006, 07:33:27 AM
Quote
Thanks!! Are there more pictures of Jean Christ. in this magazine?

Here is the picture with CHarles and the children, which I had already send, are you able to identify the children?
Is the little girl maybe Sophie, his youngest daughter? and the girl on the right side??? Maybe Charles niece or simply a friend of his children???


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000369987-005.jpg)

The little girl in red seems to be Ahn, a vietnamese girl Charles and his 2nd wife had adopted. The elder girl is likely to be Sophie.

http://geneweb.inria.fr/roglo?lang=pt&m=NG&n=charles+napol%C3%A9on&t=PN
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:11:35 AM
Thanks your contribution...mmm I am not so sure, for me the girl in the read shirt looks rather like Sophie...she is dark yes, her mother is a Corsican...but she does nor really look like from Asia to me.
I have seen Anh on the official website of Charles and she looks different to me. Furthermore I don´t think, the girl on the right is Sophie, Sophie is dark and not blonde, and as the boy on the left is Charles son ( I am pretty sure) she does not look like his sister, who must be at last six oder seven years older...

But I will solve the problem during the next time I think, I hope to get a contact with Charles in the nearer future, he wanted to give me an interview and I will ask him about this picture (will send it to him to ask) ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:28:16 AM
I meant the contrary: Jean Christ. must be at last six years older than Sophie, but the blonde girl on the picture is not six years younger than Jean I think!! ;)


Once again Impressions of Louis´family :)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0238.jpg)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:34:47 AM
wedding of Louis Napoleon and Alix de Foresta

(in profile Clementine of Belgium and Albéric de Foresta, the father of Alix)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0239.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 02, 2006, 08:36:04 AM
Britta, is that from Le Livre de la Famille Imperial?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:37:35 AM
Albéric de Foresta, the father of Alix, princess Napoléon:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0231.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:39:06 AM
Oh, you are here, that´s nice..I will send some more...you´ll get the book, but maybe it interests also some others, who don´t have it :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:41:42 AM
Both parents of Alix, princess Napoléon:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0237.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:44:32 AM
Prince Jérome Napoleon, brother of Charles

Does anyone have more pictures??? :)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0240.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 08:47:52 AM
The only two adult pictures that I know of him, for me he resembles a bit his grandfather Alberic (my opinion :P)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/IMAG0008.gif)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Jerome.jpg)


has anyone others???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 02, 2006, 01:10:56 PM
(http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/7040/ajaccio3wz.jpg)

A photograph of HH Joachim Louis Napoléon, 8th Prince Murat and his cousin HIH Charles Marie Jérôme Victor Napoléon, Prince Napoléon taken at a gathering of the Union of Napoleonic Nobility at Ajaccio on 9 December 2001.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 02:14:09 PM
Thanks, I know this picture...I like Charles on this image, but Prince Murat does not look so good there...There are several pictures of him, sometimes he really looks better than this. I have also a picture of his mother, she once made publicity for "Pond´s Cream" (must have been her) and she was very beautiful when young...I know two of Murats daughters from pictures and his son, they are looking very good. Has anyone pictures of his other children? Or is anyone interested in Prince Murat Pictures??? :P

I have copied a speech of Prince Murat concerning the murder of his ansistor, but his Italian is not so good, sounds a bit horrible, rather like french with other word- endings... ;D ;D

Sorry to mention this....Poor Prince Murat ;D ;D

Has anyone more pictures of Jerome Napoleon, Charles brother?? :-X
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry2006 on July 06, 2006, 06:46:13 AM
I am very glad to find this information about Bonaparte family!
Because I have almost lost hope to find any materials about this family, vainly wasting time on search systems.
And now I have found this information any miracle!

But now I have new questions.
I have read through here, that Louis had various disagreements with the son. In particular, the father did not like divorce of the son with him wife. And now I knew that Charles had the illegitimate daughter which mother he then married. Him father has not approved this second marriage.


Whether means it, what Charles is guilty in break with the first wife because he changed to her, he had mistresses? Whether means it, what him first wife princess could not sustain such life with the husband, therefore she has divorced from him? Whether Means it, what their small children have remained with mother? I would like to know, what attitudes between children and their mother now, and still also between Charles and its children from  first marriage.

I shall be glad, if you will answer me these questions.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 06, 2006, 07:27:46 AM
Hello Dmitry,

Firstly very welcome here!!! ;)

It´s a pleasure to see a new member here, who seems to share the interests concerning the modern Bonaparte family.
because it seems to me, that the general interest concerning these matters is not so big!
Only Benjamin has made some very good contributions here that I value a lot :)
Referring to your questions I have confess that (despite of some good knowledge on the Bonaparte family- this is a very special interest of mine.. ;)) I cannot respond all your question without any doubts of being correct, but i will try...
The disagreements of Charles with his father Louis must mainy have baised on very different political attitudes of both of them and in a different understandig of representing the Bonaparte family in the
20 th century. But as you said really useful infos with good contents are more than rare. I have read this in several interview of Charles, but in general in comparison with other royal families, who are regulary subjects of all newspapers and scandals, there is much less known about the Bonapartes.  But in general Louis was very conservative in his attitudes and Charles is totally different in his character, he lives without any stuff (like other royals) I have heard, and his very modern and a socialist from the left wing, no Bonapartist in the real sense at all. That´s what I know about him, he does not use the title Prince for being calle d either. He is no monarchist but the contrary. For his father this might have been a problem that his son become such different. Louis Napoleon was often seen at official royal ceremonies and he often posed in front of a great Napoleon portrait...Just look at his room that I have sent here as picture, it looks really like the typical royal style, and then compare Charles living with this.
Louis Napoleon must have had a big problem that Charles and Beatrice divorced. Unfortunately there is so little known about Charles private life, and I do not exactly know, why they divorced (If Chalres Had lovers I do not know) But I suppose the fact as such was already a shame for the father. Because Beatrice was a royal , one from equal standard, but then Charles remarried a Corsican civil woman!
In general I don´t think that Charles cheated his wife , but I am not sure, this man is always so sympatic to me, I can´t imagine and I don´t want to :P, but I am not sure.
Who divorced I also do nor know, but he always looks so kind and so serious so me that I cannot think that he hade girlfriends and made a terrible day for his wife, maybe there were other differences. He seems totally different in his character to me. Really there is so little known. It may have something to do with Charles very modern (too modern??) and not so royal views (he is a socialist as I said and Beatrice has chief positions in royal organisations) also do not think that he left Beatrice for Francoise, because there are some years between the marriages. I think, Charles simply went his own ways, in his attitudes, his politics and so one. I don´t know of Sophie born illegitimte. About the relation of Charles and Jean Christophe and also Caroline I have not read anything. How often he sees them, I do not know...but it always seemed to me that Caroline has a quite close relationship to her mother. I am sorry  that I cannot contreibute better answers, as there are so little infos on this: I would be interested in the correct answers to these questions myself.

Sorry... maybe any other here knows more, but there are not so many people interested :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 06, 2006, 09:18:43 PM
(http://www.napoleon.org/fr/img/zooms/paragraph/article/460853_1.jpg)

HIH Princess Caroline with her paternal grandmother, HIH the Princess Napoléon
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 06, 2006, 09:30:44 PM
(http://www.derville.org/assembl.jpg)

(http://www.derville.org/sai1.jpg)

(http://www.derville.org/alain&sai1.jpg)

HIH The Princess Napoléon at some gathering on June 22, 2005
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 06, 2006, 09:56:49 PM
(http://ameliefr.club.fr/galerie/albums/userpics/10001/078zi.jpg)

H.I.H. the Princess Napoléon preceding the Baron de Meneval, Président du Souvenir Napoléonien, followed by H.I.H. the Prince Charles Napoléon.

Photo taken during the ceremonies of the Bicentenaire du Sacre in Paris on December 2, 2004
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry2006 on July 07, 2006, 01:43:11 AM
Dear Britt25!

I am very glad that you have answered me!

As I correctly understand, Charles has the left socialist sights, does not wish to be imperial prince, does not wish to be Bonaparte. Because of these reasons Charles had disagreements with the father? How I correctly understand, Beatrice too royal princess to have the left socialist sights? Whether it is possible to assume, what first wife Charles and could not become bonapartist?

I think Beatrice is hardly capable to become bonapartist. And Charles (as the successor of Napoleon) has appeared too another's for royal dynasty Bourbons to have with them related attitudes. Whether correctly I think? Whether it is necessary to think what Charles and Beatrice have divorced because of such big difference in their sights, an origin, etc.?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 07, 2006, 02:41:41 AM
Quote
(http://ameliefr.club.fr/galerie/albums/userpics/10001/078zi.jpg)

H.I.H. the Princess Napoléon preceding the Baron de Meneval, Président du Souvenir Napoléonien, followed by H.I.H. the Prince Charles Napoléon.

Photo taken during the ceremonies of the Bicentenaire du Sacre in Paris on December 2, 2004


Dear Benjamin, so phantastic pictures again...wondeful...the Princess Napoleon still looks so good and so fresh in my opinion, even if she isn´t young anymore...but her smile and everything is so chaming!

Where did you get these last pictures...it´s wonderful! :) Can you tell me where they come from??
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 07, 2006, 03:06:15 AM
Quote
Dear Britt25!

I am very glad that you have answered me!

As I correctly understand, Charles has the left socialist sights, does not wish to be imperial prince, does not wish to be Bonaparte. Because of these reasons Charles had disagreements with the father? How I correctly understand, Beatrice too royal princess to have the left socialist sights? Whether it is possible to assume, what first wife Charles and could not become bonapartist?

I think Beatrice is hardly capable to become bonapartist. And Charles (as the successor of Napoleon) has appeared too another's for royal dynasty Bourbons to have with them related attitudes. Whether correctly I think? Whether it is necessary to think what Charles and Beatrice have divorced because of such big difference in their sights, an origin, etc.?



Hello,

Maybe it´s much exaggerated to think  that Charles does not want to be a Bonaparte or the imperial prince...His father has disheritaged him because of differences (really about the backgound there is not enough of public knowlegde), but Charles has a lot of positions in organisation about Napoleon (souvenir Napoleonien etc, have to look up them again and I think, he has a great interest in his ansistors, even he is not so historical orientated as an ecomonic. He has also written two books, one mentioned by Benjamin (thanks :)) and one by me, so he is indeed interested in his ancestry. He only sees being a Bonaparte in the 20 and 21 th century in a more modern und open way than his father. For him there does not seem to be any problem to connect his being a royal prince and being a socialist...if you are conservative, this would be a problem. He is only a very modern noble man in my view, but he would never seen "My family heritage is no important to me". As I´ve already said ( but still not done) I plan an interview to ask him some things, maybe then I can contribute some better things, surely I have to be attention not to become too indiscrete...I will see.
I do not know , if his wife had problems with his political views, or if there where differences because of them being Bourbon and Bonaparte (great enemies in earlier times!) the problem is now, that I can only speculate concerning this..and too much speculating is not so good, knowing is better, I will try to find it out...Are you interested in a few sources concerning interviews of Charles Napoleon? I know some in the internet, some are older, but maybe they are interesting to you!
Interested? :-?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry2006 on July 07, 2006, 05:59:11 AM
You can give me the reference to interview with Charles? Or you directly communicated with it? I very much am interested.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 07, 2006, 06:19:28 AM
I can look up the sources and send you a PM , is this alright? Sorry that I am so busy at the moment... :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry2006 on July 07, 2006, 06:30:07 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 07, 2006, 09:12:51 AM
Quote
Dear Benjamin, so phantastic pictures again...wondeful...the Princess Napoleon still looks so good and so fresh in my opinion, even if she isn´t young anymore...but her smile and everything is so chaming!

Where did you get these last pictures...it´s wonderful! :) Can you tell me where they come from??

Glad that you liked the pictures Britta :). The first picture came from this link: http://www.napoleon.org/fr/popup_zoom.asp?identity=87778&type=paragraph&sstype=article/ (http://www.napoleon.org/fr/popup_zoom.asp?identity=87778&type=paragraph&sstype=article/). The next three pictures came from this link: http://www.derville.org/anniversaire%20de%201855%20expo%20univ.php (http://www.derville.org/anniversaire%20de%201855%20expo%20univ.php).


You are right Britta, the Princess Napoléon does look very good for her age.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 07, 2006, 03:28:38 PM
Hello, thanks for telling me the sources, the last site is very interesting! ;)
What do you think about my conversation with our new member??
I could not answer him every question, I am so sorry. Do you know more about the background of the divorce of Charles and Beatrice? I think, there is too little known about the private life of the prince...Or do you know more? Certainly...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 07, 2006, 05:18:46 PM
Quote
Hello, thanks for telling me the sources, the last site is very interesting! ;)
What do you think about my conversation with our new member??
I could not answer him every question, I am so sorry. Do you know more about the background of the divorce of Charles and Beatrice? I think, there is too little known about the private life of the prince...Or do you know more? Certainly...


You did very well in answering his questions :). As you say, it is quite difficult to find information about the private life of Charles :(. I'm afraid that I don't know anything about what contributed to their divorce.

I have emailed the President of the Centre d'Etudes et de Recherches sur le Bonapartisme about a few questions concerning Alix and Jerome, will tell you if I get a response from him.

And thanks for the two pictures of Jerome, I hadn't seen an adult picture of him until you posted it.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 08, 2006, 02:11:45 AM
Maybe you can tell me, if you get any answer concerning your questions...I made the experience that I often do not receive any answer to mails, if I ask for infos or something, may it be on napoleonic websites, or may it be the relatives of Napoleon themselves..it´s a pity. Maybe you are lucky and can get some useful answers... :)
When the period at the university is finally over (about the 20 th of this month) I will finally try to  write to to interview Charles... :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry2006 on July 08, 2006, 10:49:52 PM
Dear friends!

Here of what I think.

At studying genealogy Bonaparte I have paid attention to some dates concerning directly by a life of Charles.
He married princess Beatrice in 1978. Before this event there should be an acquaintance, engagement and a betrothal. I think Charles and Beatrice 10 years till 1986 should be familiar with each other at least. Unless what their marriage has ended soon after a birth of their son not seems concurrence? I think this concurrence cannot be casual. In fact to the boy was three years when their parents have divorced. I do not know, how much marriage Charles and Beatrice, if in 1986 at them one more daughter (instead of the son) was born still can last? I think, girls hardly can apply for the French throne under the laws excluding the right of women on inheritance. Whether it is possible to assume, what Beatrice was too royal princess and the aristocrat to be mother for bonapartist pretender for the French throne and the successor of such odious figures (for the European monarches and aristocrats), how Napoleon I and its nephew Napoleon III?


Unfortunately, we so know about modern Bonaparte a little! I have spent so a lot of time, searching for the information about this family in search systems!!!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 02, 2006, 02:58:53 AM
A pity that a lot of the last posts here are lost by that "crash" some days ago. Seth, would you be so kind to send the picture of Charles and the link to the article about the journey of the Prince to Westphalia, where his ancestor was reigning once more? The text is german, but very interesting, and it shows the friendly, and somewhere "simlpe" and "civil" character of Charles Napoleon, who is said to speak German very well in that article (he once also wrote this to me)  Unfortunately I did not get any answer to my letters to him. It´s a pity, and I don´t somewhere I don´t understand it, because he once seemed to cooperative to me. I am very unhappy, because I would have been very interested in any interview, maybe he is too busy, but why does he not give the task to any secretary to let me know this? Why does he simply oversee my letters?


Here I have a quite nice picture of Louis Napoleon and Alix, the prince looks very friendly, I like his smiling that can he seen also on the childhood photo, which I once sent.

I give here the original title of the photo (description on the back):

"Le prince et la princesse Napoléon arrivent à Léopoldville. -- Venant de Bruxelles par avion, le prince et la princesse Napoléon ont été accueillis, à leur arrivée à aérodrome de Léopoldville, par M. De THIBAULT, Vice-Gouverneur général.

(Belga- V.H. 19/1/53)



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0269.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 06, 2006, 10:47:24 PM
Excuse me, but I cannot consider their as present princes. Excuse me, but I cannot recognize their family having regal advantage.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 06, 2006, 10:57:51 PM
When I studied genealogy Bonaparte families, I have paid attention to some dates, concerning Charles Napoleon. Charles Napoleon married first wife Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies in 1978. I think, acquaintance, engagement and a betrothal should precede their wedding. I think, they should be familiar with each other before the wedding some time. In 1980 their daughter Carolina was born. After a birth of the daughter their marriage proceeded six more years. I think, Charles Napoleon and its first wife should know each other at least 10 years. In 1986 their son was born. After that their marriage for some reason was upset. In 1989 Charles Napoleon and Beatrice have divorced. I assume, that divorce of parents after a birth of their son cannot be casual. I think, that Beatrice was too aristocratic princess of royal blood to be mother of the successor of the Napoleonic dynasty who has arisen after Great French revolution 1789 - the 1794 which derthrown and have decapitated King Louis XVI. After revolution the French throne has been borrowed by Napoleon who has proclaimed itself emperor under the personal initiative. During crowning 1804 Napoleon has pulled out an imperial crown from hands of the Pope Roman and has with own hand assigned it to the head. That is Napoleon was not the Anointed sovereign Divine, and only the dictator, which leaned on army. As a matter of fact Napoleon has simply stolen never a throne belonged it. And now son Charles Napoleon and Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies is the successor of the Napoleonic Dynasty. On a twist of fate, in veins Bonaparte blood of French and the Spanish kings from ancient French dynasty Capetiens flows. I have one interesting question. Marriage Charles Napoleon and Beatrice de Bourbon Two-Sicilies has how much proceeded, if in 1986 at them was born not the son, and one more daughter ? Or I am not absolutely right?

I have been very surprised and shocked by this marriage. Excuse, but in Russia there is a Russian saying about this princess. About this princess would tell, that she does not remember the royal origin and relationship.

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 07, 2006, 02:33:04 AM
I am not so sure what you mean, what do you exactly want to  say?  Do you think the present family is not not the right to be the heir of the Bonaparte family? ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 07, 2006, 03:18:39 AM
It´s difficult to consider what would have happed to the marriage, if Charles and Beatrice had got one more daughter instead of a son...as I know no details why they really divorced, but I think it would not have changed the situation for the couple, do you think the marriages would have been a longer one then, as they would have had to wait for a son coming, who can become their heir...? I am not sure, as Charles views are very modern, he also would have accepted, if he only had girls.I think he simply went his own ways with the time, which did not fit to Beatrice...Interesting is the fact that his adoptive daugther from Vietnam is also a girl.

Your last sentence I did not really understand, sorry, but has anyone said that his former wife Beatrice did not remember her royal origins? If yes, it seem to be rumours, as Beatrice is very engaged in royal organisations... :o
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 07, 2006, 05:02:10 AM
Bonaparte the family really has the successors, but I cannot consider their equal to any royal dynasty or any sovereign house.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 07, 2006, 05:43:23 AM
Hello..please do also look to your PM, and so sorry that it´s not possible to me to answer your questions in a better way, there are so many things that I would like to have "enlightened", but I do not know the answers myself :'(
It´s a pity that Charles doesn´t write to me :'(

Yes, I think you are right, it´s difficult to compare the house of Bonaparte to any other royal families, which have a longer royal tradition that the descendants of Napoleon, but despite of it consider that Charles Napoleon has a lot of legitimate royal blood: Bourbon, Saxe-Corburg-Gotha, Habsburg and so on, one of the very little circle of people that I know and who are interested in Bonaparte told me: Charles Napoleon has more Bourbon Blood than the count of Paris! And indeed somewhere that´t true. And now think about the other royal families: From the nature all people are equal  and once all royal people have been normal people. Think of the Habsburgs: Rudolf I, in 13 th century was the first king, before there were other families like the descendants of  Charles the great, before Rudolf became king the Habsburgs had been not more than counts...and now think of Napoleon, he was only from low Corsican nobility, but from a rather poor, but good and noble family, his ancestors were from Sarzana and Florence and had good positions. The name Bonaparte (Buonaparte) was given to Napoleons ancestry as a sign of honour in the time of the civil wars in Italy in the middleages...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: pouvoir aux canards on August 07, 2006, 08:31:41 AM
...and now think of Napoleon, he was only from low Corsican nobility, but from a rather poor, but good and noble family, his ancestors were from Sarzana and Florence and had good positions. The name Bonaparte (Buonaparte) was given to Napoleons ancestry as a sign of honour in the time of the civil wars in Italy in the middleages...

Hello, Britta, you seem well-informed; I just want to add some details and considerations: as I am living near Lucca and Pisa, I know a very interesting private archiv... (it is a little more than an archiv, so I explain) ... named La Zecca di Lucca. Zecca means money but also the institution were money is really elaborated.(Geld praegen I mean) In Lucca this elaboration began very very soon (probabely under Roman ruling) but is securely documented only from 12th century. They don't do money anymore, of course (they stopped when Carlo II "sold" Lucca to Tuscany on 1847 to return for briefly ruling Parma)  but they can show you old machines, very old  documents and so on... One of the things they can show you is the coat of arms of the Buonaparte family, as one of the families responsibles for ruling the territories, long time ago. And they relate this coat of arms with Pisa rulers (Lucca and Pisa were fighting for the territory).
Also in Pisa there is something who tells about nobility of the Buonaparte: there is in Piazza dei CAVALIERI  an University (created by Napoleon and called La Scuola Normale or La Normale. From this school are the main politics of Italy... ) Into the school are painted the arms of coat (wappen) of all the post-medioeval  nobilty, the so-called CAVALIERI DI SANTO STEFANO (Knights of San Stefan) and one of the teachers (in History) of this school said me that the arms of some ancestors of Napoleon are here painted...

Something else: about the "heir of Bonaparte dynasty"; I met him briefly once in Ajaccio on occasion of a party... for some cultural event... he seems to me a very very very busy young manager not at all antipathic but really ambitiously busy , so if you want something from him, try to offer something to him that could be usefull for his projects... About the reasons of his divorce, for me the discussion could be out-forum (but the responsibles persons who are ruling the Forum must decide) as this topic belongs only to his private life. Could we like our own divorce be discussed on Internet?

Last thing, about the too much recent nobility of the Bonaparte among the royals: AS YOU SAID, to be a royal is a question of success in the conquest of power. But then they became a class apart, with their own cultural rules (cultural in a large sense, antropologically) and I think THAT makes really a ROYAL:  his possibility to adapt and fully adopt these rules (as an example of these rules, it could be the things you buy, the things you wear, the way you talk, and so on to infinity...) On this point of view, quite all the Bonaparte had a sudden integration, more easy by some weddings (Wurtemberg, Eugène, etc) their richness (for some of them), and their intelligence to act (mainly) with some politic sense,  witch makes them possible consorts for the older nobility during the 19th century (with some out-sider)

Best regards, I hope I help you a little bit.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 07, 2006, 02:43:59 PM
M. Canard,

Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?

David
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: pouvoir aux canards on August 07, 2006, 06:44:46 PM
M. Canard,
Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?
David

My Dear Friend,

I think SMOM means Ordre Souverain de Malte ?! (I am not a specialist of Knight orders) So my humble opinion is : 

1// Bonaparte has been a plague for the Sv. Order (1798, with 600  war-boats and 30 000 soldiers general Napoléon Bonaparte coureagously assailed Malta who (he knows) had only 300 knights and 6.000 soldiers…) Also the french Republic appropriated the  properties of the Order in France and wherever France ruled…. So…

2// but History is a river and goes on… the Sov. Order counts 12 000 members and as we said before the descendents of Napoléon are very integrated in the group of  the Royals, and the descendents of napoleonic nobilty are also very well integrated in the european aristocracy… But

3// as you know –but someone in the Forum purhaps do not – the Sov. Order is still a rigid theocratic-aristocratic system and there are only 3 sorts of members ; (let me say that in french now) :    
a-les chevaliers d'honneur et de dévotion , (the one you tell in your question, Knights of Honour and Devotion)
b-les chevaliers de grâce et de dévotion,
c-les chevaliers de grâce magistrale
(Same 3 sorts of titles for the women, les Dames etc...)

To became a “a-knight” (chevalier d'honneur et de dévotion) you may present 8 noble direct ancestors  (vous devez présenter huit quartiers de noblesse) that means all your gran-grandfathers and grangrandmothers have  been pure nobles !!!!!!!!. Is the Napoleonic nobilty accepted by the Sov.Order? I think so, but I am not absolutely sure. Anyway rares are the persons ables to present such a score... many weddings were contracted out of nobilty's circle during the last two centuries...(so many rich american girls and so on...)

To became a “b-knight” (chevalier de grâce et de dévotion) you may prove 2 centuries of nobilty  (vous devez  prouver deux siècle de noblesse) that means the line of your father has to be noble from 200 years and for the nobilty created by Napoléon this could have been hard stuff…until 2004

To became a c-knight  (chevaliers de grâce magistrale) you have no noble ancestor to present… purhaps if you are very generous, it helps ??? Anyway, to became a member of the Sov. Order, you need to strictly obey to 4 conditions:
to be a catholic
to be presented by a Knight of the Order
to have worked for the order during some years
to accept the ethic of the Order.

End of the party : your questio was Do you know if any of the descendents of the nobles created by Emperor Napoléon I have yet been accepted into the SMOM as Knights or Dames of Honour and Devotion?
And my answer is that I do not know the name of the 12 000 members, that I remember not a napoleonic' nobilty name among the names of the Knights and Dames I can remember, but it could be, it could be....

IF IT IS, I hope that before their admittance, they are obliged to fall down on their knees and to ask pardon, grace, mercy, forgiveness to the 12 000 members of the community and to the souls of the poors 300 knights of true nobilty, surrending to Général Bonaparte because they choosed to lose anything in obedience to their rule witch prohibits them to fight against other christians…

Your devoted

M. Canard
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 08, 2006, 01:46:05 AM
Most of these recent facts were very interesting and also new to me! But the question with the "SMOM" was referrring not to the descendants of Napoleon (or napoleonic- connected families), but only to the by Napoleon created nobility (that means to people, who are not related in a boodline to him)?? I am not sure if I understood it correctly in this way...You said it it would be necessary to present eight noble ansistors. Concerning the todays familymembers related to old Bonaparte that´s very different. The family and the descendants of Napoleon and his brothers are very widespread, also in different countries and their ancestry is very different. For the head of the family Charles napoleon the criteries would certainly fit in my opinion as he has Bourbon ancestry, Habsburg acestry, Savoia, Saxe Coburg-Gotha and much more in his blood. So what is about this? Would he fit?  Concenring many other descendants it would be much more difficult, The American Line of Jerome has already died out in 1945  with Charles Jerome Bonaparte and the descendants of Lucien are mostly people from the italian nobility today (counts, but not belonging to a higher reigning nobility-for example: del Gallo (Roccagiovine), Bucci-Casari, Faina, Parisani etc etc etc, especially descending from the daugthers of Lucien B. and Christine Boyer and Alexandrine de Bleschamp), the famous Marie Bonaparte descending from Pierre-Napoleon ("murderer of Victor Noir"), son of Lucien, had a lot of civil ancestry like Marie Hensel ot Francois Blanc (who are famous in my hometown), but her children belonged to the greek royals, but I am not sure if for example her grandson Carlo Alessandro della Torre a Tasso fulfills the criteries? I know him a bit personally, but only from the phone. Concering the descendants of Napoleons Bastards (count Leon, and Walewski), as well as the Murats and the nobility from Napoleons generals I don´t think, that they fulfill the facts that you told in your message, many of the Murat people are connected with international or french nobility, but not in this sense with high (or reiging royals). Not at all. Most of them are connected with counts and similar nobility. Also the chief of the Murat family, Joachim , born in 1944, having four or five children, does not have enough royal (direct!) ancestry I think, his ancestry can be leaded back to the house of Bavaria and the counts of Palatine and the early Habsburgs, but that is very far away. Do one have to present eight direct ansistors from nobility in general or in the direct line (without an hole)? That makes a difference. But concerning Charles Napoleon it could be interesting to discuss the question, as he has a lot of direct royal blood. What do you think about this? And: Which nobility was also meant, when saying "the by Napoleon created nobility"??
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 08, 2006, 02:12:10 AM
I meant the new nobles that were created by the Emperor of France, the King of Westphalia, the King of Naples and the King of Spain, the various chevaliers, barons, counts, princes and dukes of the Empire. I wanted to know if their claim to two hundred years of male line nobility has been recognised by the Sovereign Military Order of Malta for admission into the higher grade of Knight of Grace and Devotion and if anyone with eight quarters of nobility including one or more quarter that is Napoleonic in origin, has been accepted as a Knight of Honour and Devotion?

David
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 08, 2006, 02:30:58 AM
So you didn´t mean Napoleons relatives themselves, only the nobility they created?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 08, 2006, 09:44:42 AM
So you didn´t mean Napoleons relatives themselves, only the nobility they created?

Correct. As in the members of this organisation who are part of the historic nobility created under the various Napoleonic sovereigns (less those members who are actually Napoleon's relatives): http://www.unionenobiltanapoleonica.8k.com/index.html (http://www.unionenobiltanapoleonica.8k.com/index.html)

David
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 08, 2006, 01:54:55 PM
I know this site and it´s very interesting, I was always impressed by the interesting activities in those organizations, but the descendants of Napoleon (relatives), do also have important positions there, they are mentioned quite often, especially Prince Murat, I think the Princes Murat (for example) belong to the nobility, which was created by Napoleon, and through the marriage of J. Murat with Napoleons sister, they are also related to him. Here are only two examples, where descendants of NB take part in these organizations and festivals...


sarà presente
Louis Napoléon Bonaparte-Wyse
discendente di Luciano Bonaparte, Principe di Canino

Venerdì 22 Novembre

Manifestazioni in ricordo di Re Murat alla presenza di Sua Altezza Reale il Principe Murat.

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 08, 2006, 02:23:55 PM
If you have not already reviewed these interesting site, you should find them of great interest:

Napoleonic Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm)

Napoleonic Titles and Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm)

Symbolism of the Emperor's Coat-of-Arms http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp (http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp)

Système héraldique napoléonien http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Couronnes et Toques en héraldique napoléonienne http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Maréchaux d'Empire http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Maisons princières ou ducales http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: pouvoir aux canards on August 08, 2006, 02:30:17 PM
Salve Britta, Salve My Dear Friend.

Logic says that also Napoleon and family, AS emperor, princesses, kings and so on are of Napoleonic Nobilty (the situation of their descendents is the same as the situation of a descendent of Prince de la Moskova if there is one, ecc). Only Pauline was a Princesse Borghèse but Dermide died and there is no descendents...

The real questio remains : ARE THE NOBLES OF 1rst and 2nd EMPIRES authorized to claim for a title of Knight (whatever it could be) of the Sov. Order of Malta???

It seems possible to ask the Sovreign Order, by Jove !! They have an adress in Roma, and they will certainly answer kindly, as Knights they are...  I live in Italy, I can write or phone to them, If you want.

And also, I have something for you, una chicca (a grape) as we say in Italy:

http://inmf.org                ..... A MEXICAN SITE FOR NAPOLéON .... something sub-real... with a serious

Mensaje de S.A.I. el Príncipe Charles Napoléon al pueblo de México,

and a not less serious

Mensajes de los Mexicanos al Príncipe Charles Napoléon, jefe de la Casa Imperial de Francia



I remain Your devoted

M. Canard
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 09, 2006, 01:25:36 AM
If you have not already reviewed these interesting site, you should find them of great interest:

Napoleonic Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napolher.htm)

Napoleonic Titles and Heraldry http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/napoleon.htm)

Symbolism of the Emperor's Coat-of-Arms http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp (http://www.napoleon.org/fr/essentiels/symbolique/index.asp)

Système héraldique napoléonien http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Couronnes et Toques en héraldique napoléonienne http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Maréchaux d'Empire http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)

Maisons princières ou ducales http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm (http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Accueil.htm)



Firstly to David: Thanks for these interesting links! I will need more time to look... :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 09, 2006, 01:46:52 AM
Salve Britta, Salve My Dear Friend.

Logic says that also Napoleon and family, AS emperor, princesses, kings and so on are of Napoleonic Nobilty (the situation of their descendents is the same as the situation of a descendent of Prince de la Moskova if there is one, ecc). Only Pauline was a Princesse Borghèse but Dermide died and there is no descendents...

The real questio remains : ARE THE NOBLES OF 1rst and 2nd EMPIRES authorized to claim for a title of Knight (whatever it could be) of the Sov. Order of Malta???

It seems possible to ask the Sovreign Order, by Jove !! They have an adress in Roma, and they will certainly answer kindly, as Knights they are...  I live in Italy, I can write or phone to them, If you want.

And also, I have something for you, una chicca (a grape) as we say in Italy:

http://inmf.org                ..... A MEXICAN SITE FOR NAPOLéON .... something sub-real... with a serious

Mensaje de S.A.I. el Príncipe Charles Napoléon al pueblo de México,

and a not less serious

Mensajes de los Mexicanos al Príncipe Charles Napoléon, jefe de la Casa Imperial de Francia



I remain Your devoted

M. Canard


Dear M. Canard, that´s very interesting...I am always so impressed by your widepread knowlegde!  ::)
It´s impossible. I think, we others are all to bad for you ;D

If you have an address to find out more about this question, I would be very interested. As I already said I would be very interested to interview Charles also concerning this question, which is discusssed here, but he really doesn´t respond. I think, it´s not fair that he once promised to me, to give me this interview.
If you can phone the souverain Order , I would be very curious, what they say.
And concerning the napoleonic Nobility I also think that napoleons descendants and relatives, descending from the king of Westphalia, Prince of Canino, king of Spain (as he had only daughers he married daugher Zenaide to her cousin, the son of Lucien: Charles Lucien -He was also a player at Francois Blanc´s Casino from my hometown! :D) and so on should be included to the napoleonic nobility, as those princely titles,  counts and so on, and also the title of the todays chief of the Bonaparte family descending from the Jerome-line, would never exist if Napoleon I had not reigned and had made them to the onces they were with their new titles...! It´s really interesting, how widespread this "familytradition" and "nepotism" was also under the reign of Napoleon III., there were so many men with good and high positions and titles descending somewhere from the Bonaparte line, or having  same ansistors more far away: Like the counts d´Ornano, the duc d. Padoue, and so on, they all had ansistors from the Bonaparte line, from which also descended the emperors (N I and N III)

And please: if you can, phone or write to this organization, I would be very interested and curious!

Britta 

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: pouvoir aux canards on August 10, 2006, 02:27:41 PM

Dear M. Canard, that´s very interesting...I am always so impressed by your widepread knowlegde!  ::)
It´s impossible. I think, we others are all to bad for you ;D

... It´s really interesting, how widespread this "familytradition" and "nepotism" was also under the reign of Napoleon III., there were so many men with good and high positions and titles descending somewhere from the Bonaparte line, or having  same ansistors more far away: Like the counts d´Ornano...

And please: if you can, phone or write to this organization, I would be very interested and curious!

Britta 


Dear Britta,

I like your sense of humour,  ::) but M. Canard is not a peacock, he is an humble duck and wants to remain a poor gruff pedantic duck ...  ;)

My dear friend Pritchard is not present on the Forum, so I promise you to phone to our brave and generous Knights and to tell you every detail of the talk... Be patient and consider that we are in august, that many people is now, and until the end of august, long away from work and offices...

I kiss humbly your hands  :D

your devoted  ::)

M. Canard


P.S. I agree with you about the particular napoleonic nepotist tradition... but consider first the italian origins of N.I : at this time, that means a mental structure that trusts FIRST in the family, clan, intimate group as brothers, uncles, husbands of the sisters, brothers-in-war, his military group -.  Second, if we consider the special positions (related to the problem of keeping power) of the two emperors, we can understand that they NEEDED  a nobilty. They equally needed an integration of antic nobilty in their First Circle and a creation of a new nobilty,  depending directly from themselves, to govern, administrate, overlook. Old nobilty had some experience (of "how to became a royal", for example...)
 Anyway I do not appraise very much all the napoleonic tribu... only some individualities (I appraise Eugène, Hortense, Mathilde and N.III f.e) and I do not like - but I recognize the genius of N.I, a man able to clearly understand and manage with greatness so many problems ... among the new napoleonic nobilty, few of them remained faithfulls or simply gratefulls... and among the "bipolar nobilty" (persons formerly nobles that N.I gived a title...) there were good and bad persons (as persons who played the card of the new nobilty when N.I or N.III were ruling and played the other one, of antic nobilty when they were taken away from the Great Stage of the Power).
 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 11, 2006, 01:59:57 AM
Dear M. Canard,

Thanks  very much for your reply. It really seems to me that some of the usual contributors are not present at the moment, maybe because they are on holidays...the weather is sooo bad in Germany at the moment...I suppose in Italy it must be much better. I has been soo hot before , but as soon as the summer break at the university began, it became baaad!

Now concering "sense of humour" etc. In this case it was really meant seriously. I really admire your deep knowlege, and you seem to me like a person having read very very very  much and being very intelligent. All your contributions are so well elaborated and everything seems of such a pefectness that -in my opinion- nobody can share here.

As you are french ( I think I had read it somewhere on the forum), I would like to know, how is Napoleon (generally) seen today there?  I know you live in Italy, but you will know it. I always had and have the impression that Napoleon is still much celebrated in France today, but do also critic voices rise? Or is critisism seen as an offence there?

I would be very interested not only in your personal opionion, but also in the general status of Napoleon today.
Can you tell  me some of your experiences?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 11, 2006, 07:14:31 AM
Excuse me, but I cannot consider noblemen of an epoch of Empire of Napoleon Bonaparte as the present aristocrats and noblemen  ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 11, 2006, 07:25:12 AM
They have met, have grown fond each other, have got married, have given birth to children, and then they have divorced. Unless their children were guilty? Why they should suffer, because their mum and the daddy have quarrelled and have divorced?  ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 11, 2006, 07:58:09 AM
You think that the napoleonic nobility should not be included into the european aristocracy as Napoleon was a "Parvenue"??
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 11, 2006, 08:14:58 AM
Yes
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 11:43:59 AM
Hello all :).

Got a reply from M. Choffat recently (I'm glad he even responded to my emails as the French I used was probably horrid :P). I thought it interesting that he and his organization recognize Jean Christophe as The Prince Napoléon, although I had previously read that that was the case.

Here are the questions I asked and the answers he gave:

Quote
Q: What are the current activities of H.I.H. The Princess Napoléon? Is she involved with the Bonapartist organizations? Does the Princess attend many royal events?
A: HIH the Princess Alix Napoléon has rather historical activities (inaugurations, dépôts de gerbes [not sure what that means ???] (Arc de Triomphe, Invalides...), dinners, presence or presidency of symposia [he used the word colloques], preface works, participation to the Laid Days Open 13th Regiment of Parachute Dragons to Dieuze of which she is the godmother. ..)

Q: What are the activities of the son of the princess, H.I.H. the Prince Jérôme? Is he still a librarian at the World Health Organization in Geneva?
A: H.I.H. the Prince Jérôme Napoléon is since 1996, librarian to the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva. He followed by the studies in Right [Droit was the word M. Choffat used], in commerce and especially in Bibliothéconomie, documentation archivist. He attended on 6 May a Napoleonic gathering at the Invalides (with his mother and his nephew Prince Jean Christophe Napoléon). He was a volunteer in the 1st regiment of Parachute Hussards in Tarbes from 1977 to 1978.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 11:48:32 AM
Why they should suffer, because their mum and the daddy have quarrelled and have divorced?  ???
Children are practically always affected the most when their parents divorce, more so than the ex-spouses I would argue. Unfortunately that is just the ways things are.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 11, 2006, 12:38:23 PM
Hallo,

I am very glad to meet you here again. The interview you leaded  must have been very interesting. The answers to the questions have brought many new facts to me. The most of it I didn´t know! That´t interesting, especially the activities of Princess Napoleon (Alix). So it really seems to me that she is not the typical  "gossip"  person attending every open royal event, but she is a really serious and historically orientated woman, who has a lot of sense for activities concerning the napoleonic ansistors & heritage and napoleonic events in general. Most of the names of the organizations and activities I haven´t heard before, so they very interesting to know. I must say this kind of royal, like she behaves,  is much more sympathic to me than many of those "newspaper" royals, who are only the gossips victim concerning any scandals. Princess Napoleon must really be an interesting person... :)
And concerning Prince Jerome, who always seems to be much in the background (in comparison to his elder brother, who is so much involved in political acivities) it´s also very interesting what you wrote. So he has qualificated himself in librarian things and archive work and so on , and that´s also an interesting task,  in general he and his brother seem to be different, Jerome does not seem to be such a "political" person like his brother, only the expression "commerce" in the text reminded me a bit of Charles, as he is a business men (also), but I have the feeling they are quite different. It would be interesting to know, what Jerome thinks about the political (left) opinions and the other professional tasks of his elder brother Charles.
But for now. Thanks for these infos. I am very glad! (Sorry for my bad English today :-[)
 ;) ::)
 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 11, 2006, 01:14:30 PM
I also have the opinion. It´s nothing specific in the marriage of Charles and Beatrice. And: We do not have the right to decide, whose fault the divorce was.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 11, 2006, 06:49:04 PM
Excuse me, but I cannot consider Bonaparte House as imperial house. I think, it is a farce. Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them. The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France. In 1814 - 1815 France has been occupied by armies of the foreign states. The royal monarchy has been restored by means of foreign armies. Its nephew very much wished to become emperor Napoleon. He became Napoleon number 3. But I think, He became the hostage of such terrible name. But I think, he had problems with mentality because of this reason. In 1870 he already suffered senile dementia. It has ended with Franko-Prussian war, Sedane captivity and the Commune of Paris. Because of only two person with their short reign in France. Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.

And now Charles Bonaparte is considered his imperial highnes! It is any shameful farce and a comedy!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 06:56:52 PM
And: We do not have the right to decide, whose fault the divorce was.

I completely agree. Not one of us knows what happened in regards to the breakdown in their marriage. Anyways, the children seem to be close to the families of both parents, which I think speaks very well for both Charles and Beatrice, as that means they have worked together to some degree to allow their kids to have normal familial relations which can be severed by divorce.

I think that they are both very respectful of each other, which is such a contrast to such divorced royals as, say, the Prince of Wales and his late ex-wife.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 07:28:36 PM
Dimitry, I don't mean to be harsh, but to be quite honest it doesn't matter what you think because your opinion doesn't have any bearing on the status of the Bonapartes. They are and have been an Imperial House since the First Empire, so I'm afraid that you'll just have to deal with it ;).

And H.I.H. The Prince Napoléon has always been an Imperial Highness, we didn't just start addressing him as such. Your view of his titles are pretty similar to the views you have of his cousin H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna and the titles of herself and her family.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 07:30:50 PM
Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them.
How could the Bonapartes usurp something they never claimed? As far as I recall the Bonapartes were Emperors of the French not Kings of France, there is a difference.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 07:39:16 PM
The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France.
That is purely your opinion. The same could be said of certain French kings.

Quote from: Dmitry Russian
Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.
No one is confused. And I'm not aware of any current persons who are known as Capetiens, they prefer to be known as the House of Orléans.
Anyways, the new generation of Bonapartes are descendents of Hugh via Beatrice.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2006, 11:58:58 PM
A pity that a lot of the last posts here are lost by that "crash" some days ago. Seth, would you be so kind to send the picture of Charles and the link to the article about the journey of the Prince to Westphalia, where his ancestor was reigning once more? The text is german, but very interesting, and it shows the friendly, and somewhere "simlpe" and "civil" character of Charles Napoleon, who is said to speak German very well in that article (he once also wrote this to me)  Unfortunately I did not get any answer to my letters to him. It´s a pity, and I don´t somewhere I don´t understand it, because he once seemed to cooperative to me. I am very unhappy, because I would have been very interested in any interview, maybe he is too busy, but why does he not give the task to any secretary to let me know this? Why does he simply oversee my letters?


Here I have a quite nice picture of Louis Napoleon and Alix, the prince looks very friendly, I like his smiling that can he seen also on the childhood photo, which I once sent.

I give here the original title of the photo (description on the back):

"Le prince et la princesse Napoléon arrivent à Léopoldville. -- Venant de Bruxelles par avion, le prince et la princesse Napoléon ont été accueillis, à leur arrivée à aérodrome de Léopoldville, par M. De THIBAULT, Vice-Gouverneur général.

(Belga- V.H. 19/1/53)


Dear Britta,
Very sorry that I didn't see your message till now. Unfortunately the link to the article w/photo isn't working for me (here's the link: http://www.hna.de/kasselticker/00_20060717211041_Der_war_wirklich_lustig.html, maybe the problem will get fixed). However I think that the same article (without the photo :() can be found here: http://www.nh24.de/content/view/1438/59/. Thanks for that picture.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 12, 2006, 02:33:19 AM
Hello,
Thanks for repeating the source with the interesting report on the vacation of Charles Napoleon here to Germany. There had been a software crash some weeks ago , the moderator said, so ypur former message simply went away some day...The text is really very interesting, as it shows somewhere the "simple" and "civil"  character of Charles Napoleon. If you have any understanding problems with it, please let me know and I´ll translate some details.... ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 12, 2006, 02:44:13 AM
Excuse me, but I cannot consider Bonaparte House as imperial house. I think, it is a farce. Because was only two persons who usurped the French throne which never belonged to them. The uncle and its nephew have brought many misfortunes for France. They conducted numerous wars which are necessary only to emperors, but not France. In 1814 - 1815 France has been occupied by armies of the foreign states. The royal monarchy has been restored by means of foreign armies. Its nephew very much wished to become emperor Napoleon. He became Napoleon number 3. But I think, He became the hostage of such terrible name. But I think, he had problems with mentality because of this reason. In 1870 he already suffered senile dementia. It has ended with Franko-Prussian war, Sedane captivity and the Commune of Paris. Because of only two person with their short reign in France. Do not confuse Bonaparte mode to 800 years of a royal dynasty of Capetiens.

And now Charles Bonaparte is considered his imperial highnes! It is any shameful farce and a comedy!


I am not the moderator of this thread, but I must say you are going too far here, everyone can have his own opinion, but this message board should not become a place to make other people ridiculous without having any profound background knowledge about them. At the beginning I thought you were interested in the topic, but know I see you only try to put a person down, who you don´t even know. Do you know Charles ? No!
You talk as if Charles Napoleon had occupied his title without any rights or only let himself call imperial highness, but he inheritated it from the  the ansistors, and furthermore is it nonsense to put the blame concerning a bad behaviour of Napoleon I on his todays relative Charles! And why the Bonapartes are confused with the Capetiens in your opinion?? They are two different dynasties!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 12, 2006, 02:50:54 AM
Your opinion about N III is also a bit strange in my view. Have you haver read a book on emperor Napoleon III.?
That he became mentally ill because of the "shame of his name", the "hostage" he was of it, and the bad things that were brought to France because of the reign of him and his uncle Napoleon...it something what a serious historian would deny, I think. I have literature on Napoleon III and it does not confirm your statements. Sorry to say that.  >:(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 13, 2006, 05:41:21 AM
Please, excuse me. Probably, I have got excited. Simply I know about reign in France only two emperors. It was the uncle and its nephew. Probably, I was not right, when considered  their as usurpers. But let's recollect, how they became emperors of France. Let's recollect still also their origin. Let's recollect, how Napoleon has made revolution in 1799. Let's recollect, how it became emperor of France. Let's recollect 1812. Let's recollect, that was till this year and that was after that year. Let's recollect, that was after its hundred days. Let's recollect white royalist terror, occupation, huge contributions. Let's recollect, how its nephew became emperor of France. Let's recollect its military adventures. Let's recollect the Mexican expedition, East war (or Crimean) against Russia, the Commune of Paris. Let's recollect about war against Prussia in 1870. What it is necessary to recollect? Let's recollect, that the uncle was emperor of France of 10 years and 100 more days. Let's recollect, that reign of its nephew last 18 years. If to summarize these figures, we shall receive only 28 years. Means, the general reign of the French emperors was equal to 28 years. And what such 28 years? Half of youth of the person? Really 28 years are enough that Bonaparte House were an imperial dynasty, and its members referred to as their imperial highneses? It very much and is not enough.

For comparison: till 1789 there were 800 years of reign of royal dynasties of Valois, Bourbons, Anjouis and some other. But these royal dynasties have the general origin from the house of Capetiens. For comparison: the dynasty of Russian tsars of Romanovs reigned in Russia 300 years (1613 - 1917).
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 13, 2006, 05:56:04 AM
It is very a pity to me of their children. I think, they had to go through divorce of their parents. I think, it it was hard. I think, it was heavy to them to have attitudes with the father and mother after their divorce.

But there is one small delicate moment: In my opinion, they cannot be prince and princess, and still also to be their imperial highneses. Therefore their daughter can be only mademoiselle Caroline Bonaparte, and its brother Jean Christophe can be only mesier.

Still also there is one small "but". I did not like that photo on which they have been represented together. They were near to that picture which represents crowning Napoleon. There Caroline was in white shirt , and its brother Jean Christophe was in a white shirt. There they smiled. Whether it is necessary to understand, what Caroline and Jean Christophe very much are proud of the ancestor?

There is still also one small remark. Caroline and Jean Christophe is Bourbons on mother.

But let's recollect, to whom successors of the Spanish and Norwegian throne are married? But let's ask to itself a question. Whom the Swedish princesses if their father married the girl of very modest origin because the then successor of the Swedish throne has grown fond of this girl can marry? Unless we do not see, with what generosity royal persons divide the blue blood with simple people?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 13, 2006, 07:31:58 AM
Hello Dmitry,

Yes, in some aspects I understand your problem with the Bonaoparte family, because they had only two emperors and were such a short dynasty with usurpatoric elements, somewhere that´s right, also to consider that the Bourbons (Capetiens) had reigned much more time in the french history, but we have to accept the history of France and what has happened. Napoleon really made a lot of bad things, too, especially the many wars against other nations or murdering of people, something that would become even worse if you take a look at the modern dictators in the 20 th century (but that would be a completely other topic), but concerning Napoleon we must also see that the french wanted him as emperor, he put the crown himself on his head, but not without the french people welcoming it. They were not satisfied with the Bourbon kings anymore, as the royal family was not very interested in the poor people, but lived well at the court without seing that the folk was suffering and so on. Dictators are almost always children of a revolution, and a revolution does not come from nothing, that can be seen in France and also later in other countries. Yes, Napoleon made many things that were not just, but cruel, but at least he made a lot for France to modernize it, like inventing the Code Napoleon and the fixing of the rights of the revolution and so on. When we look at similar people, we often have this kind of Phenomen in the history: At the beginning there are good ames in origin, but somewhere there comes a point where people like Napoleon went to far.
Now back to Charles napoleon and his family: We will have to accept their imperial title, even when there were only two emperors from the family,  as this dynasty did not have the chance to reign more time in history, but this family reigned, and so we have to accept it. Everyone has to decide how he sees it, noone can or should make another person like or dislike Napoleon, it is one´s own decision.
Concerning Charles I can only repeat that he is a man like other people, and does not behave himself like a "proud aristocrate" at all. He has this title, but he is so different from Napoleon, they are not to compare at all, he is the contrary of a Bonapartist, even if he has an interest in his ancestry and has written two books about these topics. But if you use expressions like "it´s a shame and a comedy that he let himself call imperial Highness" you are going to far, as this man is really very serious and interested in doing something good for his country in my view. He got the title from his ansistors even if he for himself would surely never
behave like a Napoleon I. ;) he once said in the interview that I sent to you "We cannot escape our history"
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 13, 2006, 01:20:35 PM
It is very a pity to me of their children. I think, they had to go through divorce of their parents. I think, it it was hard. I think, it was heavy to them to have attitudes with the father and mother after their divorce.

But there is one small delicate moment: In my opinion, they cannot be prince and princess, and still also to be their imperial highneses. Therefore their daughter can be only mademoiselle Caroline Bonaparte, and its brother Jean Christophe can be only mesier.

Still also there is one small "but". I did not like that photo on which they have been represented together. They were near to that picture which represents crowning Napoleon. There Caroline was in white shirt , and its brother Jean Christophe was in a white shirt. There they smiled. Whether it is necessary to understand, what Caroline and Jean Christophe very much are proud of the ancestor?

There is still also one small remark. Caroline and Jean Christophe is Bourbons on mother.

But let's recollect, to whom successors of the Spanish and Norwegian throne are married? But let's ask to itself a question. Whom the Swedish princesses if their father married the girl of very modest origin because the then successor of the Swedish throne has grown fond of this girl can marry? Unless we do not see, with what generosity royal persons divide the blue blood with simple people?



Here you seem to express the same opinion like on the thread "House of Bonaparte news", you think, Jean Christophe and his sister Caroline do not have a right on their titles? Did I understand this correctly? The problem is that you might not like their title and might not accept it, but the imperial family has its own tradition, and Jean Christophe is the official heir of the dynasty, already now, before his death Louis Napoleon, the father of the present prince Charles Napoleon (not: Charles Bonaparte, but Charles Napoleon !!), made his grandson Jean Christophe the official heir of his family, he decided to give his title and the heritage directly to Jean C. and not to his father, it might have been a consequense of the difficulties between the conservative old Louis and his very different son Charles. So Jean Christophe is not Monsieur or something, but the heir of the Bonaparte family, the official Prince Napoléon (not: Bonaparte or something!) Caroline is also not any princess Bonaparte, not a " Mademoiselle", but Princess Napoléon. It´s clear that she will marry in a royal house later, and then she gets another title, too and will not be the heir of the Bonapartes (as a girl). Why do you see such a problem in the titles? Is it again because of the "usurpation" of their ansistor Napoleon I ? I seems to me like that. But as I said before: He have to accept history like it is.
And now about your comment on the picture with Princess Caroline and Prince Jean Christophe, which I personally do not dislike.  From such an official press picture is it hardly to guess what they really think about their ansistor Napoleon, because this might have been an official photography (I suppose at any celebration on Napoleon´s crowing or something, which they had to attend as napoleonic heirs) and there they certainly have to smile. If they have also critic arguements concerning Napoleon I or if they are simply and only proud of being his heir, we do not know and cannot judge, as we do not know them. Everything about this is only speculation without any facts or details about the people.
Your sentences with  the Swedish princesses I did not really understand in this connection. Sorry.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 13, 2006, 11:28:41 PM
Dear Britta!
 I am very glad, that you have answered me.
But I shall be still glad to answer you.
I do not have any intentions to hate this family. I quite neutrally concern to this family. Please, excuse me for my sharp expressions concerning this family. To simply me unusually and hard to name their imperial highneses and princes. I knew simply long time about only two French emperors. Simply I had very negative opinion on their activity. But still also I did not know, that there are successors of the French emperors. Still also I consider, that this family unique. I think, there can not be second such family, which would rise from modest Corsican peasants on such fantastic height, which would become imperial family, which would establish related communications with many royal families (and even with Bourbons!). I think, second such family already never will be. You write to me, that Charles Napoleon the person very serious and responsible which wishes to do something for the native island Corsica, wishes to be the Corsican representative in the European parliament, wishes to be mayor of city Fontainebleau who was a residence of emperor Napoleon earlier, and nowadays is the Parisian suburb. You write to me, that its political ambitions are limited to it. You write to me, that Charles Napoleon does not want the third French empire, that it simply cares of preservation of the napoleonic inheritance. Whether correctly I have understood you?

Dear Britta!

I live in Russia which experiences very heavy period of the history. The miracle as Russia survives after doubtful communistic experiments and bloody dictators is simple. Lenin and Stalin have brought Russia and to Russian people so a lot of bad, that we simply do not understand, how we have survived. Secretaries general of Communist party of Soviet Union are their successors. Yeltsin and Putin were members of Communist party earlier and served in Committee of State security of Soviet Union. Only they and their followers have in due time felt the end of Soviet Union and have turned from communists to democrats. Unfortunately, they are closer to the state treasury. They have not given Russian people anything good and are now enriched due to export of raw material from Russia. I would not wish any people to receive such governors, as Lenin and Stalin. But I would not like to see Russian politicians who in something are similar on two French emperors.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 13, 2006, 11:33:51 PM
Certainly, these children are napoleonic successors. Certainly, these children are participants of napoleonic festivals and actions. Certainly, they should smile on such official actions. Certainly, only they know how to concern to the well-known ancestor. But there is one small "but". To me hard and unusually to name their prince and princess and their imperial highneses. I think, if I shall sometime meet or correspond with them, I shall ask from them of the sanction to name their mademoiselle Bonaparte and Mr. Bonaparte.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 03:28:40 AM
Do you really think, they should give up their title? But for which reason exactly? I do not really understand, why you want them not to carry their title Prince/Princess Napoleon anymore and change it in a simple "Mademoiselle Bonaparte". Please consider the impossibility of such a thought. Should the Bonaparte family not have any official heir anymore?? If Jean C. would change his name in a simple "Monsieur Bonaparte" it would not be simply a change,  but this would mean that there is no person anymore continuing the napoleonic title and heritage. It´s stange to me that you really think of a possibility that they could give up their heritage. And -sorry to say that- but there will be hardly a possibility fpr you to meet them and tell them your opinion. Even me, despite of my long interest in this family, had never the chance to contact Bonaparte descendants for such kind of questions! Until know Charles only answered me once and promised me to contact me back, but never did. Even two more letters he did not respond!
Why want you concretely them to give up their titles? 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 03:36:37 AM
Hello Dmitry, I will tell you something in private, not here...Somewhere I understand your opinion about too powerful, dictatoric reigning people, because the world made a lot of bad experiences with dictatoric regimes, even much worse than Napoleon, in the 20 th century. I will tell you some more in private, if I have time, otherwise we come too much off topic here. All right?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 14, 2006, 07:59:12 AM
Excuse me, but I have a question. Whether are Jean Christophe Bonaparte and his sister Caroline very closed? Whether there Are at them friends? Whether there Is at Caroline any friend or the groom? Whether there Is at Jean Christophe Bonaparte any girlfriend? Something is known about Jean Christophe and his sister Caroline? Excuse me, but whether there is at them no site? Excuse me, but whether it is impossible to correspond with them? Or it is inconvenient?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 09:18:16 AM
Britta may be able to tell more, but as far as I know there is little to nothing known about the personal lives of the two as they are very low profile. They have been in PdV once or twice, though.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 09:21:47 AM
I am very sorry, but concerning your recent questions it´s not possible for me to give any satisfying answer, because as far as I know there are no public information about these things. I would be a happy person for myself to know about those details and they do interest me as much as they seem to interest you, and I am always very unhappy not to know anything about the children of Prince Napoleon. For me there is something missing as well, but until now I have not found anything about those private details. I do not know at all, if Princess Caroline has  a boyfriend, or when she will marry. Now she is at my age, where she could marry, but I have no information about it. I hope that the french press will write something about it, when a marriage is going to take place somewhere. Even Jean C. is almost twenty by now, but I have no info on any planned marriage or something. Concerning those private details the house of Bonaparte seems to be much in the backgound, there is no comparison with houses like the Windsors and so on, where the boys have always been victims of the Press like their mother and father. Concerning the Bonapartes we seem to have an completely different situation as there is almost nothing in the international press. If you follow the the remarks of our dearest member Benjamin, you will see that the Princess Napoleon (I mean the mother of Charles = Alix) rather prefers meetings with historical backgound, not every open prominence meeting (So it seems to me) I always liked the modern Bonapartes, because they are such a descrete royal family (no scandals and so on), but it´s also a pity, because many infos are missing, which could enlighten discussions like ours. Itßs a pity to me that Charles Napoleon has not answered me, I would have a great interest to get to know more (also rather private details), but I cannot do anything as long as he does not respond. May be also any other member here can have some more recent infos concerning the marriage questions and so on. Only concerning the sisters of Charles Napoleon, their marriages, and the father Louis there are quite good Infos in the old Point de Vue magazines, but about the children of Charles I don´t find anything. But I will keep on searching and keep open ma eyes, because it interests me as well.
I don´t know, how the Bonaparte children are in their caracters, but Caroline seems to me like an ver open and modern person, especially when she was younger she was very often with her mother Beatrice at the events of Hughues Capet, where she seemed to meat other royals and distant relatives, but for me these are almost all infos I have on her. The same concerning your questions with friends. About the brother I really know nothing, it´s bafling, especially if you consider , how other royal  boys of this age are already the presses lovers and are presented everywhere. In the internet there is no photo at all on Jean! Only an example for the missing infos on those figures.
As I have read a site on the famille imperiale will be created, but it´s already a time ago and until nothing has changed there. I will give you the site later.  I have no idea how to communicate with them, it would be such a pleasure to me , to have them as penfriends or something, but how???? ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 09:23:34 AM
Well, Benjamin told the same I wanted to say in one sentence ;D
Thanks!!! ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 09:28:32 AM
Britta may be able to tell more, but as far as I know there is little to nothing known about the personal lives of the two as they are very low profile. They have been in PdV once or twice, though.

Hello Seth, I think I am very stupid today, but what means PdV?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 09:48:09 AM
Here are some first cousins of Prince Charles on his maternal side. They are the children of Marie Josèphe Hedwige de Foresta (b. 1935) and her husband Hély Louis Marie, Marquis de La Roche-Aymon (b. 1921):

1. Guillaume Geneviève de La Roche-Aymon (b. 1966) who is married to Nathalie Elisabeth Anne Goffinet (b. 1974; her mother is a Belgian countess)
2. Antoine de La Roche-Aymon (b. 1967)
3. Jean de La Roche-Aymon (b. 1969) who is married to Lorraine Anne Marie Jacquemyns (b. 1975) and has issue,
3.1. Alix de La Roche-Aymon (b. 2003)
4. Nathalie de La Roche-Aymon (b. 1971) who is married to Geoffrey de Chabot-Tramecourt (b. 1970; his grandmother was a Princess of Ligne) and has issue,
4.1. Fleur de Chabot-Tramecourt (b. ?)
4.2. Dorian de Chabot-Tramecourt (b. 2005)

Sources: http://www.lewage.be/ & http://www.genealogics.org/index.php
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 10:06:01 AM
Is it known whether Charles's current wife had any children with her first husband, Erik Jean Louis Langrais?

Also, Charles and Jeanne adopted Anh in 2002.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 10:15:32 AM
Hello Seth, I think I am very stupid today, but what means PdV?

It means Point de Vue ;). And you're not stupid, you've just probably never seen it abbreviated that way :).
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 10:25:00 AM
 ::) Oh yes, it sounds logical ;D

To become serious again: In which numbers of Point de Vue (PdV ;D) you have found the infos on Jean Christophe and Caroline?
I found only one at Ebay and this was from 2004 I think. but inside there was not so much despite of the nice photo of the siblings on the front page. And it was quite expensive for that (including shipping costs and so on) Would you be so kind, to tell me, if there are more point de Vues mit Infos on them? Or any other sources on them?
Thanks!

Britta

PS. You once sent I quite nice little picture (here on the board) of Charles napoleon, his second wife and the little Sophie. Can you send it in bigger or is it not possible?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 10:30:35 AM
I was referring to the issue to which you are referring. Perhaps that is the only issue they have been in, I assumed that since PdV had the pair in the magazine once that they would have them in again, apparently that isn't the case.

And I'm afraid that picture was that size when I found it on Royaute :(. I'll try to make it bigger on my computer but it might not be as nice as the other one.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 10:36:25 AM
Firstly thanks a lot for the interesting infos on the children of the sister of Alix de Foresta. Do yiu know any pictures of her or her children?? Would interest me!
According to your sources the husband of the daughter Nathalie is a grandson of a Princess de Ligne. Can you tell me, which Princess de Ligne? Because there is a line of this family, which descendents directly from the Princes Murat (From Anna Murat, one of the daughters of Lucien and Caroline Fraser)
And then the second question: It was completely new to me the second wife of Charles Napoleon has already been married before. I do not know, if she has children, but I don´t think so, I think Charles would have mentioned his complete family on his offcial website, even children from her wife, what do you think? I only know about the adoptive daughter of them from Vietnam, but  not about any daughter or son of Francoise Valliccioni. But it may be possible as well that her children (if she should have any) have remained at the fathers home?! ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 10:39:32 AM
Thanks, really a pity that there are not more references to Charles´children in the modern newspapers and PdV´s.  :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 11:29:33 AM
I'm afraid that I don't know of any pictures of that family.
Geoffrey de Chabot-Tramecourt's grandmother is the late Princesse Henriette Marie Juliette de Ligne (1891-1981) who was married to Vicomte Robert Chabot-Tramecourt (1890-1944). The Murat connection that you mentioned is very interesting. Princess Anna Murat's granddaughter Philippine de Noailles (1898-1991) married Eugène (1893-1960), the Fürst von Ligne, who was Henriette's brother.
You're probably right that Charles would list both his and Francoise's children as part of his family on his website. So perhaps she didn't have any children during her 1st marriage. Like you said though, maybe Francoise's possible children by her first husband live with their father.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 14, 2006, 01:55:32 PM
I really hope than I can push up our discussion by any interesting interview, but it´s so rare that people respond...I will see ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 03:06:04 PM
An interview would be :) wonderful  :)

Let's just hope our dear Prince will kindly return your (and our) inquiries ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 14, 2006, 10:32:24 PM
Hmm...apparently the Bonapartes had another Belgian connection. Princess Catherine's first husband was Nicolò San Martino d'Agliè dei Marchesi di Fontanetto who is the nephew of Queen Paola of Belgium. The two divorced in 1981. Oh well...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 03:22:39 AM
Here some pages from PdV 5. April, 1974:


Front page:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0221.jpg)


Catherine and her first husband  Nicolo di San Germano
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 03:31:03 AM
Some pages from the inside. In general the marriage between Nicolo and Catherine was considered as a pure love marriage, and in the interview they seem to be very in love. But they were quite young, especially Catherine, and so they might have developed differences in the coming years. The marriage was less than seven years... :-\

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0272.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0273.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0274.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0275.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0276.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0277.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0278.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 03:35:10 AM
Bäh :P  I am very sorry because of the bad quality here!!! Since the message board was made new some weeks ago, pictures cannot be send in the formate like before, that´s a pity, pictures like that that I shad ent before the message board was "improved" were not like this! I am very sorry >:(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 04:16:25 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0279.jpg)


It´s said in the magazine that Catherine seems to be very tall: When she was 15 she was already over 1,80 m! :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 04:20:38 AM
Very bad quality.SORRY!!! :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 15, 2006, 06:05:25 AM
Excuse me, but I have a question. Really all Bonapartes dark-haired and black-eyed? All of them such?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 15, 2006, 06:26:33 AM
Excuse me. But I have a question. As whom works Caroline Bonaparte at the cosmetic enterprise? She is connected with what formation, and on what care she is? I have read through about it on official website of Charles Napoleon.

 I did not know, that she has made travel to Kiev together with mother. Here a material about it.
http://www.capetiens.com/event66pp3.htm

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 15, 2006, 08:06:52 AM
Thank you so very much for those pictures Britta :). They are very nice.

Let me ask you, do you own the issue of PdV in which Charles's marriage to Beatrice was covered? It is from 1979, I bought a copy yesterday, can't wait for it to get here!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 15, 2006, 08:17:18 AM
(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier66/photo25.jpg)
© 2004 CAPETIENS.COM
Source: http://www.capetiens.com/event66pp4.htm (which Dmitry discovered ;))

Looks like Caroline is a smoker :o ;D!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 10:16:54 AM
Hello!

Thanks for mentioning the source with recent pictures of the vacation of Princess Caroline Napoléon and her mother Beatrice to Kiev. I did not know this as well. It´s interesting, because the pictures are quite new, and not so old as some others from this site. I´ll sent some of them so that also others can see them. They give a good impression, how Caroline is like, she has become quite beautiful in my opinion, more than her mother, I think (but ..yes, we have to consider she is older ;D) . The blue eyes are from her mother, but the features of her face also remind me a lot of her father. She seems like a very modern young woman, and (you might is see negative or not: ) She is a smoker 8) ;D)  :-\


Here are some of the photos. The facts about her job in the branche of cosmetics I have also only read on Charles´ website. It was completely new to me as well. I have no other infos on it. It´s a pity. It would be nice to know more about her life and her character and so on. Nothing is to find :'(


<< Forum International humanitaire à Kiev en Ukraine pour 20 ans de la catastrophe de Tchernobyl (22-26 avril, 2006) >>


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo04.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 10:22:13 AM
More.... ;)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo10.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo09.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo12.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo17.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo21.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo30.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo25.jpg)


Here she seems be quite happy with her mother, they seem to have a good relation, I suppose, but only  suppose because these are press pictures.... :-*
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 10:26:48 AM
The quality of the sent pictures here is really horrible, the faces of the people look terrible, especially the last picture of Caroline, but it´s only on the board, indeed they are different and Caroline is beautiful, horrible what makes this board with the pictures, when loading them on it.  >:( >:( :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 10:30:58 AM
Well that was exactly what I thought, when seeing that picture! I had just mentioned the same on the thread  "Charles and Beatrice...", where I did also sent some of the Kiev-pictures...Yes, it´s the first time to me seeing her smoke... :o :o :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:04:00 PM
Three more pictures of Catherine´s marriage with Nicolo...(from another number of PdV)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0280.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0281.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0283.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:06:14 PM
HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:(

What happened here? I had this never before...it seems to me that sending those kind of pictures is not possible anymore! :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:07:39 PM
One more try:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0280.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:10:32 PM
It really seems the whole message board is destroyed with these kind of pictures. I am sorry but it evidently has no sense.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:13:18 PM
Thank you so very much for those pictures Britta :). They are very nice.

Let me ask you, do you own the issue of PdV in which Charles's marriage to Beatrice was covered? It is from 1979, I bought a copy yesterday, can't wait for it to get here!

Yes, I have it, it´s from August, 1979, but concerning pictures there´s not so much beside of two pages (quite small pictures), there is more description, but as I do not speak french, it´s a bit difficult to me. I can try to send the the scanned two sites, but the quality will be too bad I fear.  :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:16:22 PM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0284.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0285.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0286.jpg)


That´s all about the marriage of Charles Napoléon and Beatrice, sorry for this quality!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 15, 2006, 12:18:02 PM
Sorry, no better quality was possible..I ask myself what happened here! :o
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 22, 2006, 02:47:13 AM
Excuse me, but I have a question. Really all Bonapartes dark-haired and black-eyed? All of them such?

I don´t think so, Charles has brown eyes, yes, they come from his father,  but look at Caroline, she has her mothers and her grandmothers (from fathers side) blue eyes, in my opinion. Even if you must consider that the hair seems to be coloured. On childhood pictures her hair is brown. Her brother Jean as well  I suppose, I think, his hair is dark, about the eyes I am not totally sure. The Bonaparte descendents are widespread today, and there are many different looking people. But concerning the hertitage line it´s like I said.
On the other royal forum, Dmitry, you have said that you think Caroline is not looking so pretty. I consider her beautiful, I must say! Is this really your opinion?? I like her appearance, she is tall like her father and has her fathers features, but the blue eyes from Beatrice. What to you not like at her? :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 22, 2006, 06:14:41 PM
Quote
I don´t think so, Charles has brown eyes, yes, they come from his father,  but look at Caroline, she has her mothers and her grandmothers (from fathers side) blue eyes, in my opinion. Even if you must consider that the hair seems to be coloured. On childhood pictures her hair is brown. Her brother Jean as well  I suppose, I think, his hair is dark, about the eyes I am not totally sure. The Bonaparte descendents are widespread today, and there are many different looking people. But concerning the hertitage line it´s like I said.
On the other royal forum, Dmitry, you have said that you think Caroline is not looking so pretty. I consider her beautiful, I must say! Is this really your opinion?? I like her appearance, she is tall like her father and has her fathers features, but the blue eyes from Beatrice. What to you not like at her?

I shall try to answer this question. I cannot tell, whether it is pleasant to me Caroline Bonaparte or not because I never met with it personally. I saw only its photos. Basically these photos were with www.capetiens.com. But I wish to tell, that these photos have not liked me. Unfortunately, these photos not absolutely successful. Perhaps, Caroline Bonaparte more nicely or more beautifully actually. But I do not know.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 23, 2006, 02:18:34 AM
Don´t you like her style or her features?

The pictures I have send here are of bad quality , consider it...

Apart from this it would really interest me, WHAT you don´t like at her? Her face, her other features or her style of clothing???

Maybe it´s a question of taste.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 23, 2006, 06:26:03 AM
Dear Britta!
Unfortunately, I am not assured, that I can answer on your questions. I wish to repeat already told. I never saw Caroline Bonaparte. Those photos which we already looked, unfortunately, not absolutely successful. Therefore I cannot know about this girl. Therefore I do not know, what it on the character, what hobby is at it.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 23, 2006, 06:38:26 AM
Even if I don´t really understand, what concretely you dislike at her or her apppearance I give you right that we don´t know enough about her and her character and everything, but the negative impression I don´t really understand... ???

It´s really a pity, Caroline is almost exactly of my age, and I would have been grateful to know more about her life, her friendships, her hobbies and her relation to her napoleonic heritage and so on It´s really a pity! All we can do here is only speculation and indeed all we do is only speculation... On one page of the Point de Vue magazine that I sent you, there was that article  about the marriage of Charles and Beatrice and in this connection it was written there that Charles dislikes it to be photographed for the press, I suppose it´s somewhere similar with his children. They are simply not a "Press family" (Compare him so his namesake in England ;D ;D that´s something completey different as I said...you will think that as well ;D ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 23, 2006, 07:06:57 AM
Here some more photos of Caroline, some older as well:


Some years ago:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/photo24.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pic11.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pic1.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pic14.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pre-SEEGER00062129.jpg)


As very young girl:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pic2.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/pic8.jpg)


Some others that I like:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/image26.jpg)

One newer, I think:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/CA6FGBNG.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 23, 2006, 07:22:58 AM
Britta!
Her photos have not liked me, because there Caroline Bonaparte such thin and painful(unhealthy), and with the tense smile. I think, this girl very much does not like to be photographed for official publications in press. I think, Caroline Bonaparte does not wish to be engaged any public or public work. I think, this girl prefers to be engaged in the private life. Unfortunately, it only assumptions! We know nothing about Caroline Bonaparte! 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 23, 2006, 01:34:22 PM
Maybe..maybe not. It´s hardly to say from those little  pictures...Not everyone is the typical "Phototype", but her smile and her features resemble a lot to her father, he has almost exactly the same smile...and he is indeed involved in public activities! 
I think, your taste is simply much different..I don´t think that she looks unhealthy like you said. I think it´s just her type, furthermore her father is also quite slim, especially when he was a child, he was very very long and slim. I mean Charles Napoleon.

Well let´s forget about that. It has to sense to argue for someone´s taste,  but I just don´t think that she looks painful or something like you said >:(

It´s good that you´ve never seen me, I don´t want to think about what you would think about my look ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 23, 2006, 11:13:25 PM
When I wrote my last message, I did not know, that you have already added some photos representing Caroline in this forum. 8) Two of these photos have liked me. On one Caroline was between two men and in a white dress with decollete, and on another this girl was in a red shirt and white trousers. Then in these photos Caroline looks very well. There she such nice!  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 24, 2006, 01:09:23 AM
It seems also to be a question of the occasion. On a trip through a town or something you cannot go like if you to dancing or something ;D This style on the last photo is nice, but not for every occasation, I think.
But concerning "unheathy" and so on:  In my view there are royals and stars , who are much thinner and much more unheatly that her, there exist some , where you really can see that they have eating problems or something, but Caroline is simply I slim type, I guess, he is just so similar to her paternal side, when they were young. Do also look at the scanned pages I sent you from her aunt Catherine, she was sooo slight on the pictures :D :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 24, 2006, 05:49:19 AM
Who was near to Caroline in last photo?  Her brother?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 24, 2006, 06:13:29 AM
I like this photo, too. It´s quite elegant her dress and nice.  :P

Unfortunately I can´t find the site anymore where I found this photo.

NO -  that´s defintely not her brother, unfortunately there does not exist such a good and recent photo of her him!

But Jean Christophe looks much different and has a completey different smile. It´s not him.

As I remember this is a prince from the house of Bourbon, but I can´t remember the name, who it was.

It would be quite interesting, if Caroline married a Bourbon Prince! I would welcome it that the two once -enemy families come nearer! Her mother is also a Bourbon, so it would fit!

If I can find the picture again, I´tell you for sure who it is and also the occasation of this image.

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 24, 2006, 11:02:08 PM
I wish to thank you for photocopies of materials about Bonaparte family which have been sent to me. I have kept them on my computer. You write to me, that cannot send me additional materials about this family because my mail box has been overloaded. I have looked these photocopies and have kept them in a separate folder on my computer. Then I have cleared my mail box, which now now empty. Therefore I hope, that you will continue to send materials about Bonaparte family. I only shall be glad to receive constantly these materials because I have no other sources of the information about this family, and still also I do not know how to find this information in Internet.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 25, 2006, 09:16:20 AM
Good!!! ;)

That´s interesting! How did you find the site???

I did not know this:

"Caroline is a fashion girl and works for Sisley, the sexy clothing brand."

It was quite new to me that she works for Sisley,

but in this connection I remember something interesting: The brand Sisley was indeed founded (I think so!) by Hubert d´Ornano (not true??), who is also a Napoleon-descendant more far away. He was a descendant of the marshall Philippe-Antoine d´Ornano (originally in Italian: Filippo Antonio d´Ornano), who was the daughter of Isabella Maria Bonaparte, the cousin of Napoleons father Charles-Marie (Carlo Maria). Philippe- Antoine had married Maria Walewska, the former mistress of Napoleon I, which made the son Alexandre. From the son of Maria W. and Filippo Antonio, the count Rudolf (Rodophe) d´Ornano, descends Hubert d´Ornano, brother of Michel d´Ornano, who is also famous!

So that´t interesting with Caroline, I did not know anything about her job in that branche.  I must say I dont think now that she is really a person, who does not want involved  in public at all, she must be interested in fashion and style and so on, but it´s such a pity we only have sooo little infos. But that´t fine what you found!

On this picture she reminds me so much on her father I must say...I had never seen it ...strange!

It would really be interesting, when she will marry...and who!

But this article also shows that there are still sceptic voices concerning Napoleon descendants - in comparison with other royals! That´s interesting!

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 26, 2006, 06:50:57 PM
I have found it in search system Yahoo. I have set there words: Princess Caroline Napoleon. And it while now unique results of my searches.   >:(
By the way, did you know about website
 http: // napoleontrois.free.fr?

I still also suggest to look themes about Bonaparte family. These are materials are on references:
http: // www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f76/bonaparte-imperial-family-9241.html and
http: // www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f96/bonaparte-genealogy-10123.html

Only I recommend to be registered, because photos can be accessible only to the full and registered participants of these royal forums.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 26, 2006, 09:06:16 PM
(http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/894/dwf15245949qt7.th.jpg) (http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwf15245949qt7.jpg)

Here's Princess Caroline at the wedding of Prince Jean de Caraman-Chimay and Marie-Séverine Hoare on 1 June 2002 at Chimay. Caroline is pictured with a Lord Michel (or Michael) Anders Cavendish.

The image is © Henri Tullio/Corbis.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 26, 2006, 10:38:12 PM
Excuse me, but I did not like her red turban. In my opinion, it looks ugly. I think, she would be better without this turban.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 27, 2006, 09:01:04 AM
Hi,

Yes I knew this picture...it must be from the same source as the one with Caroline in red dress and the young man.
That´s right, the turban looks really a bit strange, I thought the same...It´s really better without this :o
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 28, 2006, 05:25:27 AM
It is interesting to you? ;D





(http://www.nysocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/04_27_06/images/CIMG4007.jpg)
(http://www.nysocialdiary.com/socialdiary/2006/04_27_06/images/CIMG4006.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 06:32:09 AM
Hello Dmitry! Thanks very much for these pictures and the sources! They are very interesting...I am very sorry that I still did not answer your PM..I had so many other things, and I am preparing my trip to Vienna in these days. After that I´ll answer you!

The pictures are very nice, and the sources are very interesting, also the first. I have to read it, if more time. There is something about the differences of Prince Charles Napoleon and his father, that´s good, because infos on that case are very rare. It´s very friendly to put it here!

I see, Charles becomes older ;D, but he still looks very good in my opinion, and he looks so nicely brown in his face, I suppose it´s the corsican sun ::) ;D Or is it simply the light?? ;D

I find him very sympatic, I can´t help it, I still have this good opinion of him, but I am quite worried and unhappy that he did not respond me, even if he is busy, he could have said anything!  >:(

Again: Thanks very much. I´ll respond you in private later!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 12:38:21 PM
Louis Napoléon (1914-1997), father of Charles

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/louisnapoleon1914-6.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/louisnapoleon1914.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/louisnapoleon1914-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 12:43:25 PM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/louisnapoleon1914-3.jpg)


Louis Napoleon in the time of Army

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/napoleon.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Bret1.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 12:47:12 PM

Here on the left, with Marie Bonaparte, Eugenie of Greece and Maries grandchildren on the picture

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/TPN05164_10700.jpg)


Later and not so formal ;D

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000353428-003.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 12:55:02 PM
Signatures of Princess Alix and Prince Louis on a card, which deals with the announcement of the birth of their son Jerome

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/nap57.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 28, 2006, 01:01:01 PM
One of my favourite old Postcards, it shows Prince Louis Napoleon and Princess Alix with their twins Charles and Catherine:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0195.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 28, 2006, 05:38:35 PM
Thanks, very much was pleasant to me! Very interesting photos!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 29, 2006, 01:48:14 AM
Unfortunately the quality of the last is not so good, the message board sometimes makes the images terrible...>:(

the pictures of Catherines marriages that I sent last week rather look like abstracte art ;D






He was born in 1864 and in 1879 he was selected by his father as the unique representative of the family, even if he was the younger brother of Prince Victor (who became the real grandfather of the Bonaparte descendants of today). It might have had something to do with the differences between Plon-Plon and his son Victor, the question, that you asked (I still don´t know enough about it!)
Interesting is also that he did not want an active political career, but became a Division-General in the Russian Imperial Guards.
Did you know about him?





Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 29, 2006, 06:03:03 AM
Concerning brother of Victor Napoleon here there is an information.


I know, that he served in Russian imperial guards and was the governor of Armenia. I still also know, that he was the tutor of the nephew after death of its father Victor Napoleon. This everything, that I know concerning brother of Victor. Successors of imperial family are always unknown!  :'(

Unfortunately, he has died unmarried and childless!  :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 29, 2006, 07:43:14 AM
It would be interesting to know more...but I don´t speak french, that´s a problem. There are some very good details in the book by Decaux about the imperial family, I have that book, but I did not read everything, as it is in french and difficult to me! :-\
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on August 30, 2006, 05:25:32 AM
I suggest to use automatic electronic translation in Internet. I not so well know English and at all I do not know the French language, therefore I use electronic translators. I think, they are in Internet. I think, there there are electronic dictionaries.

Dear Britta! Excuse me, but I have a question. Whether It is impossible to send me this book about imperial family or photocopies of images of members of this family?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 01, 2006, 11:06:56 AM
Did Marie Clotilde and the Count de Witt originally buy the Château de la Pommerie or was it already owned by Prince Victor?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 04, 2006, 06:30:44 AM
Hello!

Nice to hear from you. I just came back from Vienna yesterday evening...I have looked for the answer to your question in between , but I fear until now I can´t give you a satisfying answer. I don´t know, if you got the book by Decaux in between (I hope so!) and there is not much about Clothilde and her living.  But if I look at the birthplaces of the children of Clothilde and Serge de Witt it´s interesting that many of them were born in Tunesia, so it seems to me that they must have lived there for some time. All the other children from 1949 up were born at the Pommerie, so it might be that they have bought it about this time, but I am not sure, as I could not find any confirming details somewhere else. I will try to keep my eyes open to find any answer that is more secure than this... :D 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 04, 2006, 08:46:38 PM
Excuse me, but I have questions. I know, that Charles Bonaparte has the illegitimate daughter from the Corsican woman who has then married it. I know, that Charles Bonaparte has adopted the Vietnamese girl. I have a question. These girls cannot be princesses?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 05, 2006, 04:04:02 AM
I think (suppose) that Sophie and Anh are both Princess Napoléon.

I will look for further proof.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 07, 2006, 07:53:24 PM
Excuse me, but I have questions. I know, that Chantal de Chevron Vilette was mother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies. Ñaroline, comtesse Zamoyska was the grandmother of Beatrice de Bourbon Two Sicilies. These women were married for chapters of the House of Two Sicilies. Excuse me, but unless these marriages are not mismarriages?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 13, 2006, 04:04:55 AM
Has anyone got pictures of descendants of Count Charles Léon, who was said to be Napoleons illegitimate son?

They are very hard to find.

The last count of Léon lived from 1911- 1995.


But there are no pictures, has anyone got ideas , where to find any?

Thanks! :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 25, 2006, 07:56:22 PM
H.I.H. The Princess Napoléon with H.R.H. Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and T.R.H. Prince Louis-Alfonso and Princess Maria Margarita de Bourbon on September 24, 2006. (I believe that Prince Jean-Christophe's head can be slightly seen from behind Louis-Alfonso.) The royals are attending a mass at Saint Louis des Invalides commemorating the 300th anniversary of the church.

(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/18/71982277zm0.th.jpg) (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=71982277zm0.jpg)(http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1718/71982261zq9.th.jpg) (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=71982261zq9.jpg)
(Click on the images to enlarge them)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 26, 2006, 04:26:47 AM
Hello Seth,

Thanks very much for saving this topic ;D

It had run down very fast in the last time, because nobody posted anything! :(

The picture is very nice, only a pity that Jean Christophe can not really be seen there, where did you get the pics, if I may ask?

I think Jean C. has wonderful thick hair like his father. I think Charles Napoleon, even when now almost almost fiftysix, has still very nice hair, grey , but very fully...mine is so thin in comparison :'(

Are there maybe other pictures, where Jean Christophe is better to see?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 01, 2006, 05:34:42 AM
I would have loved to help you with the question, but I must confess it was not really clear to me what you would like to know ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 06, 2006, 07:49:17 PM
I think that Ranieri and Countess Karoline Zamoyska's marriage was equal, as well as Ferdinando and Chantal's.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 06, 2006, 07:56:15 PM
Hello Britta,

The pictures are from Getty Images (www.gettyimages.com (http://www.gettyimages.com)).

And I couldn't find any pictures where Jean Christophe can actually be fully seen. Thankfully Alix was walking near Luis Alfonso and his wife or else she probably wouldn't have been in the photos either. I don't see why the "Duc d'Anjou" gets so much press while the Bonapartes get so little.

But at least Alix is clearly seen, as is Beatrice. Speaking of that, they seem to get along pretty well, even though Beatrice is no longer Alix's daughter-in-law.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 07, 2006, 07:00:47 AM
Hello!

 Thanks for the sources, getty images generally is s good site, but I cannot copy the pics as big as you have, how did you do it? ???
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 09, 2006, 04:37:57 PM
Hello All!

Britta,
I used imageshack.com to host those images.

Dmitri,
Nice photo of Caroline. Never seen it before...where did you find it at?

In the meantime, here's a photo of H.I.H. The Princess Napoléon arriving at a gala given at the Élysée Palace during the State Visit to France of T.M. The King and Queen of Spain (27 Mar 2006)
(http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9536/57193691ul9.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 10, 2006, 02:13:59 AM
Hello Dmitry,

That´s a nice picture of Caroline! Ich have never seen this, it looks some kind of modellike! Is it from a newspaper or is she posing for a clothing brand?  Somewhere I had read that she works for Sisley. And I always thought that´s funny, as it was founded by the d´Ornanos, who are Bonaparte descendants themselves ;D
Really interesting pic. Princess Caroline must be 26 this month and her father Charles 56.

Dear Seth,

Very nice picture as well! I am always impressed, how good the old Princess Napoléon still looks! It´s wonderful and she seems to travel a lot, as well, Am I right? She seems to be an interesting person, would be interesting to talk her , but it must be difficult. Charles did not respond any mail of me, I fear he has a special PC system, which does not pass my mails, it´s really a pity, but I think, writing again and again has so sense, because nothing is coming. He promised me an interview and never did it.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 10, 2006, 02:19:02 AM
Hello All!

Britta,
I used imageshack.com to host those images.


Well, I meant I cannot get big the pictures at Getty images, even if I have an Pseudonym there.... I only can see the small versions..
That´s strange!!!

Dmitri,
Nice photo of Caroline. Never seen it before...where did you find it at?

In the meantime, here's a photo of H.I.H. The Princess Napoléon arriving at a gala given at the Élysée Palace during the State Visit to France of T.M. The King and Queen of Spain (27 Mar 2006)
(http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9536/57193691ul9.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on October 10, 2006, 04:48:07 PM
Dear, Britta!
You have already received my letters about the German monarchists and Maria Vladimirovna?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 11, 2006, 04:54:03 AM
Yes, I will send you a mail during these days ;)
can you tell me where you got the picture of Caroline from?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on October 11, 2006, 04:15:19 PM
Search systems are. They refer to Google or Yahoo. This everything, that I could find with their help
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 12, 2006, 01:35:58 PM
I couldn´t find that princess Caroline picture with google and yahoo :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on October 12, 2006, 04:20:13 PM
Unfortunately, they give the reference almost always on Napoleon or its sister. That I could find, grows out patience.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 15, 2006, 08:52:06 AM
A pity that I didn´t find the reference page.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 22, 2006, 10:59:38 AM
Here is an article about Louis, Prince Napoléon (I'm not sure what newspaper it is from as the article was cut out and pasted in a book of mine):

Quote
June 1977
PARIS -- His Imperial Highness Prince Napoleon, in swimming trunks and navy blue sports shirt, stretched his 6-foot-5 height in a comfortable chair on his terrace at Cap Camerat and looked out over the Mediterranean Sea. "I get my height from the maternal side," he said with a smile.
  Prince Napoleon, great grandson of Emperor Napoleon's youngest brother Jerome and Catherine of Wurttemberg, is the last descendant of the family that once ruled France. Louis' title and that of the Comte de Paris, last descendant of King Louis Philippe, are the only two titles officialy recognized at the Lysee Palace on the orders of President Giscard d'Estaing.
  Louis Napoleon is the great-great nephew of the Emperor of France, great-grandson of King Victor Emanuel of Italy, grandson of King Leopold II of Belgium and is honored, sought-after and curtsied to, he remains a gutsy French patriot.
  Exiled (as were his forebears from 1852) till 1950, he still managed to serve as a French commando in World War II. When both the French and British armies turned him down because of his exile status, he joined the French Foreign Legion as Swiss citizen Louis Blanchard. After France capitulated to the Germans he tried getting back into the country by crossing the Pyrenees from Spain in the dead of winter but was captured and put into the same prison that confined Gen. de Gaulle's brother.
  When the Germans tried to make a deal with the prince to promote the Napoleonic idea of a unified Europe - only under Hitler - he turned a deaf ear. Eventually freed on probation, he immediately teamed up with the underground as a commando until 1944 when he was allowed to join the regular army.
  His lovely-looking wife, Alix, daughter of Count Alberic de Foresta, is the mother of his two sons and two daughters. The youngest, Jerome, 20, has spent the past two months working in Houston for gas tycoon Bob Herring before returning home to serve his stint in the army. Alix presides over three abodes for her banker husband - the informal Riviera retreat, a house near Geneva and an apartment in Paris.
  On a red velvet pillow reposing on a table is the first gold and enamel collar (necklace) of the Legion of Honor which Napoleon created. In the arched alcove behind the sofa are ten swords Napoleon carried, including the one he wore to his coronation - only with paste diamonds replacing the original huge gems now owned by the state.
  "My favorite is the silver one," said Alix, "because it is so modest and the one he carried when he was a general."
  On one wall is Jacques Louis David's famous portrait of Napoleon, the duplicate of which is in the National Gallery of Art in Washington. On another wall are bookshelves filled with the books Napoleon read in his last days on St. Helena, each bearing a pale imperial mark stamped with the crude wooden seal made there by his faithful valet. Mounted on a little stand on a shelf is a small silver eagle that was with him on St. Helena.
  "It was the only piece of silver left," said the princess. "All the rest was sold to live on but he couldn't bring himself to sell the eagle because it was the insignia."
  All the chairs and settees in the room are inherited pieces from Tuileries Palace and covered with Beauvais tapestry. On the walls of the dining room are dynamic Francois Gerard portraits of the handsome Jerome as King of Westphalia, and his Queen Catherine.
  Where ever the eye lit was an object of artistic and historical significance. To see it all in the live-in setting of the same family here in Paris produced an eerie feeling that the Emperor himself might walk into the room at any moment.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 22, 2006, 01:10:32 PM
What a wonderful article!!!! I´ve just made a copy! In which book was it?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on October 22, 2006, 01:31:18 PM
What a wonderful article!!!! I´ve just made a copy! In which book was it?

The one I'm to send to you ;)! I had taken off the dust jacket and I saw that someone had pasted the article on the back of the book...much to my surprise it was about Louis and Alix!

The bit about Prince Jerome was interesting, he must speak English if he was working in the US.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 22, 2006, 03:02:46 PM
I have to hear more in private where that book comes from and who put the interesting article in it... ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 05, 2006, 04:46:51 PM
On a barely related note to the article I posted:

Here (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B06E0D71239F930A25753C1A967948260) is an obituary for the Robert Herring that was mentioned. I wonder how Louis came into contact with him...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 08, 2006, 06:47:11 AM
Well, do you mean the pic from 94? They were still very young there, as I see, but nice. Unfortuntaly a bit small the picture, would be interested to get a bigger version...there is also one more  picture of Caroline from 02. I try to look for bigger versions...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on November 15, 2006, 05:19:51 AM
http://www.fedephoto.com/
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 17, 2006, 11:33:11 AM
Wonderful site with wonderful portrait pictures of Charles Napoleon in the Lutetia Hotel! I´ve never seen them!  This man really looks - and is fascinating to me! I wish there were more pictures of his family, but there aren´t  :'(
But doesn´t matter, the pics of Charles are overwhelming...

But, Dmitry, to address you directly, I am wondering a bit, that you always search your such great sites and mention them here (they are really good and not known by me before ;)) even if you have such a bad opinion on Napoleon, which you have expressed on certain other posts here :P

Sorry that I say that so openly, but I´m just a bit curious because of that contradiction. Is it just interest, even if you don´t like the Bonapartes?

If anybody finds pics of little Sophie Bonaparte I would be grateful! (Well, by the time, she is already fourteen!)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 24, 2006, 05:42:38 PM
Here are some more pictures of the Princess Napoléon from 24 Sep 2006:
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/7753/preseeger00167610gn6.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=preseeger00167610gn6.jpg)(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2651/preseeger00167605pg5.th.jpg) (http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=preseeger00167605pg5.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 25, 2006, 10:39:21 AM
The first two pictures came from Seeger Press and the last one from the Capetian website.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 25, 2006, 10:47:42 AM
Thanks...! The last I already knew, Caroline makes a strange face there, she is more beautiful in reality :D

If you find anything about Sophie, I would be grateful. She is already fourteen by the time, but nobody knows anything about her looking, her education, life and so on. Well, that´s a pity.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 25, 2006, 12:24:31 PM
I'm afraid I haven' seen any new pictures of Sophie.

In the meantime, here is another photo:
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1840/0000347641001sw2.th.jpg) (http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000347641001sw2.jpg)
Prince Jean Christophe, Princesses Beatrice and Caroline at the wedding of the Duke of Calabria on 30 Oct 1998.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 25, 2006, 01:05:16 PM
Here are some links to some interesting websites that talk about Charles Napoleon:
http://www.jena.de/fm/41/BiographieCharlesNapoleon.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4061461.stm
http://www.jeremyjosephs.com/napoleon.htm
http://www.gotha-fr.com/Documents/personnel%20et%20confidentiel.pdf


http://www.ac-versailles.fr/etabliss/plapie/MediaCorse2001.html
http://ameliefr.club.fr/Charles-Napoleon.html
http://www.ville-larochesuryon.fr/article.php3?id_article=711

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on November 29, 2006, 06:09:48 AM
I do not like potential political career of Charles-Napoleon. I do not want, that it did political career. For what political career is necessary Charles-Napoleon? I very much am afraid, that Charles-Napoleon can want to stand in presidents of France per 2007. When elections of the French president take place? What candidates will stand in the French presidents? Through what time term of registration of candidates can end? I do not want and very much I am afraid of restoration of " the third empire "
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on November 29, 2006, 10:25:52 AM
What candidate?Madame Royal.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 29, 2006, 01:27:33 PM
I do not like potential political career of Charles-Napoleon. I do not want, that it did political career. For what political career is necessary Charles-Napoleon? I very much am afraid, that Charles-Napoleon can want to stand in presidents of France per 2007. When elections of the French president take place? What candidates will stand in the French presidents? Through what time term of registration of candidates can end? I do not want and very much I am afraid of restoration of " the third empire "


I have just gotten answer from Charles N. two days ago, he is such a friendly person, but too busy with his political career to answer special questions at the moment. But what to the devil you are "afraid" of? I don´t understand this. Charles Napoleon wants to come into the parliament, that is true, wants to be elected for the parliament in 2007, it´s to read in several newspapers (his circle is in the department Seine- et Marne, party UDF=liberals), but what you are afraid of? What you complain is more than impossible and- to say it directly -does not make any sense.  Firstly there are absolutely other candidates for the president election than "Mr. Bonaparte", one is the a woman (Ségolène Royal,  the first time a woman, as we in Germany have the first time a woman for chancellor ;)), and usually only people are standing for being candidate, who already had great politic positions in the government before. Charles Napoleon was and is a person with -until now- only local political intentions like being deputy major of Ajaccio, so it does not make any sense only to think about him as possible candidate, and furthermore, even if todays Napoleon- which is as I explained MORE THAN IMPOSSIBLE- would be a candidate or a president, what would be sooo terrifying about this? Do you really think Charles Napoleon wants to make career as dictator? I think, on this thread Charles Napoleons political views were already discussed more than thoroughtly and need not to be repeated here again. For this such a comment about a "third Empire" does not have any logical basis and can´t be considered as more than a joke.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 30, 2006, 06:39:47 AM
A serious looking man:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/JT0246006.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/JT0246008.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/JT0246004.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/JT0246003.jpg)



Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on December 02, 2006, 11:04:04 AM
Thanks for the pictures Britt.I wonder were Charles will end up(seats will be shuffled) with the coming election of Madame Royal,oh if pigs could fly...what a pair the two would make.....now that would be a Great Coalition.

Just to enlighten,Madame Royal:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4625248.stm

He stands a very good chance to get elected for parliament.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 03, 2006, 12:45:28 PM
Yes, that´s an interesting imagination, Royal and modern Napoléon working together-- ::) What a pity that it is only phantasy...but I imagine the modern Bonaparte as a good statesman  ::)

Do you really think that the has good chances to be elected in the parliament. Concerning his local politics on Corsica I have heard that there are or have been a lot of critic voices, especially in conservative rows.


Here some photos of other descendants of Napoleon, not to fix everything only on Charles napoleon. He is my favourite figure from the family and of course he is the most engaged man in politics from the Bonapartes and...he is the head, but lets not forget that there are still others....


The current prince Murat, 8th Prince Murat, born 1944:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000286049-005.jpg)


holding a photo of his direct ansistor: the famous general & king Joachim Murat.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/gphoto50206.jpg)


His son, also called Joachim. he will be the next Prince Murat:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0211.jpg)




Direct descendants of Emperor Napoleon I:


1) From his son Alexandre Walewski:


a) Count André Walewski:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000285583-019.jpg)

with a statue of his ansistor Alexandre W.


b) Counts Raphael and Fabrice W.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/DWF15-1090570.jpg)


with pics of their famous ansistor


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/DWF15-1090561.jpg)
 

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/DWF15-1090565.jpg)


with their families


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/DWF15-1090566.jpg)


youngest descendants: children of the Walewskis


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/DWF15-1090572.jpg)

Part of count Walewskis flat.


2.) last descendant of Napoleon son count Léon:    

                   (he is now dead)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/comtecharlesleonetbernardlandry.jpg)


I hope you enjoyed!


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 04, 2006, 12:55:41 AM
Excuse me, but all Bonapartes cannot be their imperial highneses. It is not necessary to perceive their titles seriously. All these titles false. Still also I very much did not like that photo with the boy and the girl. There Jean-Christopher and Caroline have been dressed in white shirts, they faced to that picture and smiled. Why they smiled? In fact Napoleon was not their direct ancestor. These the boy and the girl are descendants of the most younger napoleonic brother. But their great-grandfather is the cousin of Napoleon III and the nephew of that Napoleon. That is Jean-Christopher and Caroline are not lineal descendants of two French emperors. What rights to French throne Jean-Christopher and Caroline can have?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 04, 2006, 02:51:42 AM
I thought those questions were already discussed here: Surely, not all descendants of Napoleon bear the title imperial highness. Napoleon´s descendants of his illegitimate issue for example are only counts, as you see it here under the pictures: The counts Walewski and the counts Léon (the last died out in the male line). Even if they are descendants of the emperor, they are not from a legal marriage. It would have been different, if Napoleon had married his love Marie Walewska  ::) or Eleonore Denuelle  ;D
The descendants of Jerome, brother of Napoleon I, have the legal rights to be the pretenders to the french throne. Napoleon I did not leave any (legal) descendants apart from Franz von Reichstadt, who himself died without leaving any successor, and the same with his cousin Napoleon the third, whose only son Eugene died in the Zululand war without having any son or daughter. The descendants of Jerome, it was Prince Jerome Napoleon, the nephew of Napoleon, at that time, were the only descendants from any of Napoleons brothers, so the rights and the title were passed officially to the line of Jerome, because there were no other heirs (apart from Lucien, but he did not have any kingdom)The descendants of Jerome Bonaparte do not only called themselves prentenders to the throne and do not give "themselves" a "wrong title", as you hold the opinion, but they own the title "Prince Napoleon", and they ARE are the OFFICIAL HEIRS of Napoleon. I have not read the laws, where this is written, but it´s official. If one likes or dislike it does not play any role in that case.
I do not understand, why you always worry about that press picture with Prince Jean Christophe and Princess Caroline Napoléon: I suppose that was a special occasion, where they had to pose like this, their opinion about their role as napoleonic successor we can not judge, because those young heirs are personally unknown to us.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 04, 2006, 01:25:34 PM
Here I have found two interesting pictures of the three cousins Napoleon:

a) Pierre-Napoléon Bonaparte (son of Lucien) b) Louis Napoléon B. (Emperor Napoleon III) c) And Prince Napoléon (son of Jerome)

The latter became the official heir of the dynasty after Napoleon III did not leave any heir.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/2b_1_sbl.jpg)

Official title: "Les trois cousins"


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/RV3512-5.jpg)

b.) Prince Napoleon (son of Jerome, later heir of the dynasty), Peter Napoleon B.(Pierre), Prince Murat, above: Napoleon III.


The first one is currently sold at Ebay, unfortunately for a pretty high price...

But maybe interesting for Dmitry, if he still doesn´t know, what dearest Santa shall bring him tomorrow night  ::) 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 04, 2006, 05:05:06 PM
Well, these the boy and the girl cannot be napoleonic successors because are not lineal descendants of two French emperors. In my opinion, they cannot be the present royal family and to be equal to any European royal family. They cannot be the present aristocrats. Napoleon so loved the brothers and sisters, gave them titles and kingdoms. Naturally, all of them titles and kingdoms were paper. They can be only Mr. and Ms. Bonaparte. Please, it is not necessary to perceive all this seriously. Let's recollect their attitudes with the European royal families.
1) the Younger brother of Napoleon Bonaparte Jerom Bonaparte married on Wurtemberg princess because Napoleon wanted this wedding. But after 1814 the father of this princess has arrested Jerom Bonaparte and held it in the palace because it wanted divorce of Jerom Bonaparte and Wurtemberg princess.
2) the Son of Jerom Bonaparte married on Italian princess because Napoleon III and the Italian king were allies in war against Austria. But the Italian king required support of strong France because Austria did not want association of the Italian grounds in uniform kingdom.
3) Victor Napoleon has grown fond the daughter of the Belgian king, but king Leopold II was categorically against such wedding and has never given the consent to this marriage during the long life. Only in 1909 it has died. Only after death of Leopold II Victor Napoleon and its loved princess have got married.
4) Their son Louis married on Alisa de Foresta. It would be desirable to know, with what princesses Louis could be connected before the wedding with Alisa de Foresta?
5) Charles Napoleon was married on Beatrice de Bourbon of Two Sicilies. But for some reason they have divorced practically at once after a birth of their son. Casual concurrence?
Only descendants of Jerom Bonaparte have related attitudes with royal families. But these related attitudes not so good. Anybody from descendants of other napoleonic brothers has not become related with the European aristocracy. Perhaps, because they are upstarts?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 05, 2006, 10:47:03 AM
People still refer to them by their royal titles as a matter of courtesy, and are entitled to do so - for example, Princess Caroline of Monaco is often referred to as 'HRH the Princess of Hanover' although Hanover has not existed for more than 150 years.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 05, 2006, 01:23:58 PM
Well, these the boy and the girl cannot be napoleonic successors because are not lineal descendants of two French emperors. In my opinion, they cannot be the present royal family and to be equal to any European royal family. They cannot be the present aristocrats. Napoleon so loved the brothers and sisters, gave them titles and kingdoms. Naturally, all of them titles and kingdoms were paper. They can be only Mr. and Ms. Bonaparte. Please, it is not necessary to perceive all this seriously. Let's recollect their attitudes with the European royal families.
1) the Younger brother of Napoleon Bonaparte Jerom Bonaparte married on Wurtemberg princess because Napoleon wanted this wedding. But after 1814 the father of this princess has arrested Jerom Bonaparte and held it in the palace because it wanted divorce of Jerom Bonaparte and Wurtemberg princess.
2) the Son of Jerom Bonaparte married on Italian princess because Napoleon III and the Italian king were allies in war against Austria. But the Italian king required support of strong France because Austria did not want association of the Italian grounds in uniform kingdom.
3) Victor Napoleon has grown fond the daughter of the Belgian king, but king Leopold II was categorically against such wedding and has never given the consent to this marriage during the long life. Only in 1909 it has died. Only after death of Leopold II Victor Napoleon and its loved princess have got married.
4) Their son Louis married on Alisa de Foresta. It would be desirable to know, with what princesses Louis could be connected before the wedding with Alisa de Foresta?
5) Charles Napoleon was married on Beatrice de Bourbon of Two Sicilies. But for some reason they have divorced practically at once after a birth of their son. Casual concurrence?
Only descendants of Jerom Bonaparte have related attitudes with royal families. But these related attitudes not so good. Anybody from descendants of other napoleonic brothers has not become related with the European aristocracy. Perhaps, because they are upstarts?


I am sorry, but this question was already discussed so often. Princess and prince Napoleon are the legal heirs, and -pardon- your personal opinion -or the personal opinion of anyone- does not play any role in that case.
Even if you personally hold the opinion that the young heirs do not have any right on their titles, as Napoleon was a parvenu, one has to accept that the napoleonic empire existed and the rights on the title and the heritage was officially given to the descendants of Jerome Bonaparte. All your statements are partly right, but they do not change anything on Prince and Princess Napoleon´s legal right on their titles.
Your opinion concerning the divorce between Charles and Beatrice cannot be proved by any outstanding person like us, when you say that they divorced because of a possible "concurrence" of their families and their blood- Bonaparte and Bourbon- I hardly believe that these were the main reasons for their divorce, even when I don´t know it for sure, but it may have had completely other reasons. There maybe hundreds of reasons for a divorce.
That only the descendants of Jerome Bonaparte have relations with the European royal families is not completely right. Think for example of the famous Princesse Marie Bonaparte, greatgranddaughter of Lucien B., who was wife to Prince Georg of Greece, whose father was a king.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 05, 2006, 01:47:35 PM
Here are some interesting pictures of the present Princess Napoléon with President Chirac:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/4702834_POLFOTO.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/4702835_POLFOTO.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/4702843_POLFOTO.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 06, 2006, 05:03:10 PM
Dear Britta! Why you consider as their princes and their imperial highneses?! I am very tired to repeat, that all this not the present. I am simple in despair.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 07, 2006, 02:05:23 AM
Well, my dear, I have to repeat my myself all the time, as well. I think, this is no real discussion. I do not personally "consider" the present members of the napoleonic family as Princes Napoleón, but they are the heirs. It seems to be a personal problem of you that you cannot accept the truth, but this can´t change the facts.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 07, 2006, 06:40:26 AM
Maybe it would be best for the two of you to just agree to disagree.  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 07, 2006, 10:10:52 AM
How do you mean agree to disagree? :o
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Prince_Lieven on December 07, 2006, 12:56:15 PM
I mean that since you can't persuade each other to see the other point of view, perhaps you should just drop the debate rather than wasting your time.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 07, 2006, 02:41:21 PM
Yes, maybe another topic should be discussed here apart from the right of Napoleon´s descendants on their titles, but Mr. Dmitry always starts this discussion from new! :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2006, 02:07:49 AM
Yes, maybe another topic should be discussed here apart from the right of Napoleon´s descendants on their titles, but Mr. Dmitry always starts this discussion from new! :P

If the thread is so unsettling to that person,maybe he should just ignore that it's there at all instead of adding uncanny and tiresome comments.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 09, 2006, 03:51:45 AM
Don´t tell it me!  ::)

I am sorry to say that, but I am sure, if Dmitry had the choice he wouldn´t put the Bonapartes under the royal families, but under the claimants-thread ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 09, 2006, 04:24:48 AM
This picture shows that the princess Napoléon (Alix) seems to have quite to have a good relation to the Bourbons, here she is standing beside Luis Alfonso ("Ludwig XX") and her former daughter in-law.


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/is_12771994.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2006, 12:24:34 PM
http://www.seegerpress-online.de/seegerpress-cgi/topixx?op=preview&ID=1070910103&str...


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 09, 2006, 02:17:18 PM
Don´t want to be banned here, but I think that´s a nice decoration for Dmitrys livingroom-wall.  ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on December 09, 2006, 02:55:35 PM
Don´t want to be banned here, but I think that´s a nice decoration for Dmitrys livingroom-wall.  ;D

Ofcourse you won't get banned,silly,if it wouldn't meet his tast in the living room,he can tile it up next door for an Imperial flush after another moment of dispair ... :-*
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 09, 2006, 03:55:24 PM
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4592/51833726uu7.th.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=51833726uu7.jpg)

Princess Napoleon attending the Child Abuse Foundation Gala at Versailles (6 Dec 2004)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 10, 2006, 06:00:01 AM
And why they should have bad attitudes? I consider, that nobody can replace Louis XVII. I consider, that together with its death in 1795 the history of old royal France has ended. Instead of lawful king now so-called "pretenders" exist. These legitimists esteem Louis XX as " lawful king of France ", but do not speak, that aristocrats and noblemen (representatives of the most exclusive estates in France) were not capable to protect King and the social standing, therefore they could not go to numerous French provinces and lift people against revolutionaries. Instead of it they have run away to England (how much it was unapproachable for Napoleon, we know). Orleanists esteem the descendant of Egalite as the real candidate on the French royal throne. But I would not like to speak about Bonapartes. By the way, I shall not hang up this poster on a wall of my drawing room and to look at this poster.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 10, 2006, 06:22:17 AM
Nobody forces you to support the Bonapartes as pretenders, all royal families of France are only pretenders in our time, and everyone can and should decide for himself, which he would elect. In gereral once can say, that there will never exist a monarchy in France again. But if you do not want to speak about the Bonapartes as you have said, I would have the serious question, why you post here, why don´t you simply ignore the topic, when you think Napoleons descendants are not worth to be talked about?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 18, 2006, 11:57:20 PM
I would like to know, what was reaction of the French aristocratic society to wedding of princess and the napoleonic successor.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 19, 2006, 04:41:57 PM
Quote
On 19 December 1978 HIH Prince Charles Napoléon married his distant cousin HRH Princess Béatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, daughter of Ferdinando, Duke of Castro, a pretender to the Neapolitan-Sicilian throne. Although both the groom and bride belonged to families that had once upon a time ruled France, the Bourbons and Bonapartes were historically bitter enemies, and their rival monarchist movements, howsoever futile, had heretofore prevented them from alliance, political or marital. Although both families are Roman Catholic, the couple declined religious nuptials in favor of a civil wedding in Paris.[5] Together they had two children, HIH Princess Caroline Marie Constance (born in Paris, 24 October 1980) and HIH Prince Jean-Christophe Napoléon (born in Saint-Raphaël, Var on 11 July 1986). The couple were divorced on 2 May 1989.

The happy end is not has gone right under the Hollywood script  :-[ :'(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 23, 2006, 06:10:20 PM
Bonapartes always will be upstarts. They are children of bloody and severe revolution which has occured in France and which has killed king and queen together with their son. Bonapartes never occured from royal, aristocratic and even nobiliary families. They always were simple Corsican peasants. I do not think, that they would have any chances or opportunities to promote in royal France. Yes, Napoleon differed from other people. But who such Napoleon? One of numerous generals of revolutionary France. I do not trust in the so-called napoleonic military genius. Huge human weights were the basic weapon for Napoleon. But it has not helped Napoleon in 1812. Because of huge distances from border of Russia with Poland up to Moscow Napoleon has been compelled to leave everywhere greater garrisons which became easy game for Russian the guerrilla. Only 30.000 people have returned from Russia in December, 1812. For comparison: in the summer of 1812 the huge napoleonic army has intruded in Russia. In it there were 640.000 people of the most various nationalities. From here expression " twelve languages " has appeared. I do not love Napoleon. I cannot understand, how it is possible to borrow an another's throne. I cannot understand, how it is possible to proclaim myself emperor. Those known pictures were very much remembered for me. On one of these pictures Napoleon was in a magnificent imperial cloak and a gold diadem, on other Napoleon crowned itself. Except for itself, Napoleon very much loved the brothers and sisters. Napoleon even created for them paper kingdoms. For the sake of the brothers and sisters Napoleon did not disdain to arrest and expel old royal families. How it is possible to concern to Bourbons so severely and brutally? How it is possible to arrest the Spanish royal family in 1808 how it is possible to force to renounce it a throne how can be given the Spanish throne napoleonic brother Joseph? How it is possible to expel Bourbons family from Naples and Sicilies and to give the Neapolitan throne to napoleonic sister Caroline and its husband to marshal Murat? How it is possible to give the Dutch kingdom to one more imperial brother Louis? It is a lot of Such cases. I cannot understand, how it is possible to marry the Austrian princess? Still also I cannot understand adventure and hundred days in 1815. Unless Napoleon did not understand, what in this case all Europe will be at war against it? I cannot understand all it. Unless Bourbons can forget, how Napoleon addressed with them? Unless Bourbons can forget what Napoleon has grasped their throne which has always been borrowed by kings from family of Hugo Capet? Unless Bourbons can recognize Bonapartes equal to? Bourbons always were one of branches of a sort of Hugo Capet. Now legitimists consider Luis Alphonso as lawful king of France Louis Luis Alphonso is successor Bourbons and Hugo Capet. Bonapartes cannot be successors of Hugo Capet in any way and Bourbons. In France salic the law always exists. Let Charles Napoleon marries even any Spanish princess (the daughter of Juan Carlos) or any parma lady (Marina de Bourbon of Parma), let Jean-Christophe marries the sister or the daughter of Luis Alphonso, let Napoleon II (King of Rome and Reichstadt duke) marries the grand daughter of Charles X (daughters of duke and duchess of Berry). All the same Bonapartes will remain Bonapartes in this case. All the same Bonapartes cannot be successors of Hugo Capet and Bourbons.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: palatine on December 23, 2006, 10:47:43 PM
I have taken the liberty of editing Dimitry's post.

Bonapartes...Bourbons.

Dimitri, this thread is devoted to discussion of members of the House of Bonaparte.  If you want to discuss the first Emperor Napoleon, you should do so in the thread that is exclusively devoted to him.  Here’s a link:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,8303.msg233655.html#msg233655
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 24, 2006, 11:24:55 AM
"Bonapartes never occured from royal, aristocratic and even nobiliary families. They always were simple Corsican peasants"


I am sorry, but if you had read about the napoleonic origin you should know that this is not true. The Bonapartes were a noble family originally from Tuscany and Sarzana. As I have surely discribed in another post, the Bonaparte was given as a sign of honour to the family during civil wars in Italy in the middle ages. It means right partly and belonged to those, who were the winners of different fractions in the time of those wars. There the Bonapartes were allready people of influence. Maybe there lived rather  lived in rual regions later in Corsica, that´s true, but they were not simple peasant as you have said. This is simply not true! There are documents that Napoleons father Carlo Maria, who had studied in italian towns, got an official confirmation of his italian nobility by the church. Especially Carlo Maria took the name Bonaparte and his aristocratic background very serious and ecucated his children like that, too: To look that they are always behaving correct and are on (as the name says) on the right side. How Napoleon behaved later like is something different.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on December 24, 2006, 05:32:12 PM
Well, let Bonapartes will be noblemen with ancient a genealogical tree. But nevertheless they never were the reigning house till 1789.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 27, 2006, 04:32:59 PM
Video of Prince Jean Christophe and the Princess Napoleon (and briefly Prince Jerome) at some ceremony: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSIaNU39PRU

PS. Charles is shown for the last 10 seconds
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 28, 2006, 09:52:20 AM
Thanks very much for the wonderful links!!! ;)

The video with Jean Christophe was overwhelming to me, because I never saw this young man in television or somewhere else, only a pity that the quality of the video is not a bit better. But how he behaves and laughs, everything is so charming and reminds me so much of his father, but he has something very special.
It is more than a pity that this Jean Christophe is so much in the background. Now where I have seen him, I think even more that is a pity that there is so little known of him. I am more than convinced he is a very descrete and charismatic person, and he should be a much more famous royal than he is. It is really strange, there are so many royals, who you can see always and everyday and sometimes they are evidently much less charming than Jean Christophe, who is hardly to see in any newspapers or in television. It was the very first time to me. But where does this video come from? It must be something from french television, maybe he is more known there than in other countries, but I really wished that one could make him more famous in comparison to others.
I would do everything to get to know more about his life! ;)

And to Princess Alix. That was wonderful as well. She only spoke some words, but she must be a wonderful woman, never saw her talking! I can´t hardly believe that she is already turning 80! It´s impossible... :D

This family is something so special. I will always remain their fan ;) Sorry if I am so subjective today ::)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 28, 2006, 12:10:41 PM
Yes, the video was wonderful :). So very nice to be able to see almost all of the members of the family and the way they talk and behave. It is good that Jean-Christophe is involved in some ceremonial activities. He and Alix seem like they are very close. They are a very special family, indeed. They are so dignified, the way they don't court the press in the fashion of some modern royals. Very interesting people.

I wonder when the video was from...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 28, 2006, 12:43:30 PM
Royalty in Exile, Charles Fenyvesi, 1981, p. 139-142

Quote
     Prince Imperial Louise-Napoleon is 6'3", ten inches taller than his great-granduncle Napoleon I, emperor of France. He has a pale complexion; his hair was blond before it turned silver. He is the chairman of several corporate boards, and a lover of sports--bicycling, car racing, horseback riding, mountain climbing, sailing, scuba diving, skiing, and swimming. He is an art collector; his unique Napoleon memorabilia ranges from Napoleon I's Tuileries furniture to his famous gray riding coat, from David's celebrated full-length portrait of the emperor to a collection of rare nineteenth-century toys with Napoleonic themes.
     Louis-Napoleon is dedicated to living the good life. He has an attractive wife and four children--two boys, two girls--who share his enthusiasm for sports; a mansion in the most exclusive section of Paris facing the Arc de Triomphe; a nineteenth-century chateau in a thirty-five-acre park in Switzerland; a hilltop villa on the Cote d'Azur; a yacht named Aquila; a fleet of automobiles (his first love, at age eighteen, was a red Bugatti); and a large collection of antique and modern guns. He is an experienced pilot, an underwater archeologist with numerous Greek and Roman amphores to his credit, and an explorer of Africa, which he has traversed twice with his wife.
     His is a multinational business empire including coffee plantations in Central Africa and the Caribbean. A multimillionaire who greatly increased the wealth he inherited (most of it from his maternal grandfather Leopold II, king of the Belgians), Louis-Napoleon is a contented citizen of France, without political ambitions and preferring anonymity. "I am not a star," he tells journalists and photographers. "We all work." Fearing publicity, he has resigned from such posts as honorary chairman of a charity ball, and though he dutifully attends ceremonial functions marking Napoleonic anniversaries he will make neither speeches nor small talk. "I am just a plain businessman," he tells his friends, "and I am very, very busy with my business."
     In a rare interview in the late 1960's, for the private publication of a family album, Le Livre de la Famille Imperiale, he was asked about the possibility of his occupying the imperial throne one day. The interviewer records that Prince Napoleon was silent at first. "Should one day the majority of my fellow citizens wish that," he finally responded, "I would not escape their desire. But I will always refuse those who advertise my name and my person for partisan purposes, because in my eyes the name Napoleon is synonymous with unity." In the one press interview he has granted, to the French picture magazine Point de Vue Images du Monde, Louis-Napoleon declared, "I would always be ready to do my duty if the majority of France wants me, but I wouldn't ever impose myself by an unreasonable action."
     But Louis-Napoleon who considers himself more of a republican than a monarchist, insists on his title. Those who make the mistake of addressing him as His Highness are informed in glacially polite language that Louis-Napoleon is His Imperial Highness... Technically, Louis-Napoleon is not a claimant to the French throne; unlike Henri Bourbon-Orleans, he is not a pretender.
     Louis-Napoleon obliquely criticized Henri in the interview with Point de Vue Images du Monde: "I maintain the traditions of the empire that are just as important as the divine right [of kings]....But I don't have to look behind my shoulders and regret the past. I have a horror of princes waiting for the crown." He has stated flatly that the empire cannot be restored.
...
     Of all the nonreigning royalty of Europe, Louis-Napoleon is the one who belies his legacy. In him, the Napoleonic tempest comes to a complete calm; the ambition of conquest is transmuted into the contentment of possession.
     His secretariat refused my request for an interview, explaining that "in face of the multiplicity of such applications, the Prince Imperial decided not to accept any, because it is not possible to accept some and reject others. We are sure you understand this position."
      I stormed his Paris headquarters on rue Presbourg...A high wrought-iron fence surrounds Louis-Napoleon's property; sheet metal fastened to the fence blocks any view of his garden. I entered the front gate, passed through a cobblestone courtyard, and rang the bell. The voice of a well-educated older lady answered from behind a ten-foot-tall double door. She told me to leave my name and telephone number with the concierge. Then the voice added, "Don't touch anything, because if you do, the police will come immediately. The place is wired." A prim, efficient voice informed me the next day on the telephone that "the prince imperial doesn't give interviews. I hope you understand." Intercessions by relatives and acquaintances were of no use. "He detests being considered a pretender to the throne as well as having to explain that he is not." I also received a warning: "You will be bored. There is nothing there except money." A final letter cited his activity as "very different from those of the royal families" who interested me. The signature was diagonally scribed--a complex, moody, twice-underlined "Napoleon."
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 28, 2006, 01:45:37 PM
Royalty in Exile, Charles Fenyvesi, 1981, p. 148-150

Quote
     Members of the Bonaparte family have little use for Bourbon pretensions. "The count of Paris is a fool," one Bonaparte tells me. "He thinks that there will be a Bourbon restoration. He really believes in it. He does not realize that the days of the monarchist are past. But there is absolutely no hope for the monarchy in France."
     Louis-Napoleon and Henri know one another. They say they have no objections to being invited to the same dinner party, yet sensitive hosts and hostesses always ask them if they mind. "There is no rivalry between us," comes the standard reply. "We are good friends." But frequently if both are invited to a gathering only one will show up. If their paths do cross, Louis-Napoleon and Henri shake hands and exchange a few words--as do their wives who patronize the same hairdresser in Paris, on rue de St. Honore. Isabelle and Alix speak highly of each other, but they do not get together on their own, and neither has the other's telephone number.
     Alix comes from an old aristocratic family from the south of France, originally Italian, raised to the ranks of the French nobility in 1651 by Louis XIV. The de Forestas have been fiercely loyal to the Bourbons, and, at the time of their daughter's engagement, the word was that the count and countess de Foresta were opposed to the match with a Bonaparte prince. In her preface to Le Livre de la Famille Imperiale, Alix does not write of her parents' feelings. Instead she plumbs a more distant past: "It pleases me to imagine that the sweet Clotilde of Savoy, Princess Napoleon and my husband's grandmother, should have come to a secret understanding in the other world with the tender friend of her adolescence, Natalie de Foresta, my great-aunt. Didn't the two of them guide our steps and hearts so that I, a descendant of a legitimist family, would become on a lovely day in August 1949 the wife of the head of the imperial family of France?"
     It is Princess Alix, rather than her husband, who takes an interest in promoting the Bonaparte tradition. She helps researchers and exhibition organizers. Gossip has it that while Louis-Napoleon, apprehensive about revolution and expropriation, insists on keeping most of his collection of Napoleon memorabilia in safe Switzerland, Alix, outgoing and ambitious, would like to have the fabulous relics seen by as many people and in as many exhibitions as possible.
     One hundred twenty-five years after Napoleon's coronation in Notre Dame, and after subsequent alliances of Napoleon's four brothers and three sisters with the reigning families of Europe, the Bourbons and Bonapartes are no longer incompatible. In fact, Henri and Louis-Napoleon are third cousins: Louis-Philippe is great-great-grandfather to both.
     Another fact that neither Bonapartes nor Bourbons advertise is that the handsome businessman Prince Charles, Louis-Napoleon's eldest son and heir, has married an authentic Bourbon princess, Beatrice, from the branch of the family that reigning in the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies...
     It is believed that Charles and Beatrice, both in their twenties, lived together for some time without the benefit of priestly blessing, even after the birth of their first child.
     But monarchist publications, eager to record the date of Prince Charles's marriage and the particulars of the new generation of Bonapartes, have been unable to obtain information. His interest in adapting to the contemporary world notwithstanding, Louis-Napoleon does not approve of his son's trendy ways. Harsh words are said to have been exchanged between father and son, and the affair has reinforced Louis-Napoleon's determination to stay out of the limelight.
     But if Prince Charles angered his father, he was fulfilling a Bonaparte tradition. In the nineteenth century, no other European dynasty showed more of a preference for siring illegitimate children than Napoleon I's immediate family and descendants. As a result, Burke's authoritative almanac of royalty notes with British dryness, "Louis-Napoleon and his two sons are indeed the only living legitimate male descendants of the progenitor of this House, Carlo Bonaparte."
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 29, 2006, 12:56:48 PM
Royalty Who Wait, Olga Opfell, 2001, p.51

Quote
     As to just who is the current head of the Imperial House of France is another royal matter of some dispute. Before dying in May 1996 [he really died in 1997] at the age of 82, Prince Louis Napoleon, who had been head since he was 12, drafted a will excluding his elder son, Prince Charles Napoleon, from his dynastic heritage. He named instead Charles's then 11-year-old son, Prince Jean Christophe. Louis Napoleon's lawyer, Jean-Marc Varaut, continues to uphold the will, which complains that Charles divorced his first wife without parental consent and then married a Corsican commoner without family permission. Moreover, Varaut says, Charles professes republican sentiments, does not recognize monarchist principles, and has been involved with the Corsican separatist movement.

p.57-59

Quote
     The Bonaparte twins had been baptized in the Eglise Saint Louis des Invalides by Apostolic Nuncio Roncalli, the future Pope John XXIII, with Charles dressed in Napoleon II's swaddling clothes. The boy inherited many of his father's interests, especially in airplanes and automobiles.
     At the age of 18, watching the revolution of students and workers unfold in Paris, Charles--as he later said--became politically aware. That same year, 1968, he served as a sailor on a tanker in the North Atlantic. When he came back to France, he began pursuing serious studies at a college in Annecy and then at Mathelem, where he received a master's degree in applied economics, a diploma in econometry, and finally, with distinction, a doctorate in economic sciences.
     He turned then to the business world and worked at banks in Marseilles and Paris. At the same time he mingled with Socialists. The tall, handsome prince was a busy partygoer. His somewhat trendy ways often upset his father, especially when he waited to marry Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies until after their first child, Caroline, was born in October 1980 in Paris [the couple were married in 1978, before Caroline's birth]. A press attache and holder of a master's degree in sociology and psychology, and a diplomate in international interpretation, Princess Beatrice was the daughter of Ferdinando, Duke of Castro, one of two contenders for the headship of the House of Two Sicilies. Charles and Beatrice have a second child, Jean-Christophe Napoleon Bonaparte, born in July 1986. The couple was divorced in 1989.
     Prince Charles's twin, Princess Catherine, who studied social welfare, first married Nicolo San Martino d'Aglie di San Germano, Marquess of San Germano, but they were later divorced. They had no children. In a civil ceremony, she married Jean-Claude Duale, a company director, and lives in Paris with him and their two children, Charlotte and Marion. Another sister, Laure, married an engineer, Jean-Claude Lecomte, and resides in Grenoble. Charles brother, Jerome Napoleon, is unmarried and lives at the Villa Prangins in Vaud.
     In 1996, Charles Napoleon chose as his second wife Francoise Vallicioni, a Corsican commoner, daughter of M. Vallicioni. They live in Boulogne-Bilancourt with a daughter, Sophie, born in 1992. The prince has been recently branch manager for the Credit Lyonnais in Paris. Aside from his banking duties, he serves as president of the Souvenir Napoleonien, a historical association with about 3,000 members.
...
Charles does not seem particularly perturbed that the Centre d'Etudes et de Recherche sur le Bonapartisme (CERB) recently asked, "How can one dynastically support a prince who categorically rejects all notions of dynasty and heredity and who will not proclaim himself the inheritor of his Napoleonic ancestors?" CERB declares that Charles's young son Prince Jean-Christophe is head of the house. In his will Louis Napoleon had praised the boy: "I have full confidence in the heart and spirit of Jean Christophe to maintian the traditions of the Imperial Family, a sacred trust, which is always in the service of France."
     Prince Charles answers that what counts is the Bonaparte tradition of making the eldest son the natural heir. His Souvenir Napoleonien stoutly supports him.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 29, 2006, 02:07:07 PM
Thanks very much for all the texts. We have no other member being so kind to do so much work....
I need some more time to read through all, and then I will give my feedback later. ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 01, 2007, 09:29:12 AM
I have now read through the four pieces of posted text and I would like to give some comments here.
In general the texts bring a lot of new aspects to me and it would be interesting, where the differents parts of text were exactly found. As I can see from the notes here, they seem to be taken from different sources and different books. That makes it quite exciting.
The first aspect, which is interesting here is the relationship between the Bonaparte family and the Orléans. I must confess that I would not have imagined that the relationship between the two french families is still charactersized by those problems and that kind of rivality (even if it is not very extreme and always said or mentioned directly by the families, but it´s between the lines), which shows that the traces of history are not so simply to be taken away, even in our very modern times. The relationship is not very warm, but quite distanced and only very formal like a simple handshaking, when both are at any occasions. The fact that they nearly appear both on the same dinner tells us that they are still no deep friends, but keep distances. It would have been interesting, which Bonaparte is was (the name is not exactly said here, but it might be Louis Napoléon), who said "The count of Paris is a fool." It is evident that the Bonaparte heir (do we talk about Louis here? I suppose) holds the opinion that he is more a realist by understanding a monarchy in France is something impossible, whereas the Orléans family still considers itself a pretender to the throne, which puts them on a side of dreamers, who are not aware of the truth and the impossibility of a new throne in France. But how strange that despite of this- how one of the texts says it- Louis Napoléon was very strict with his title and also corrected only little mistakes, if somebody made them (concerning his title). On the other side he considered people, who still expect a possible coming monarchy not as fools. "I have a horror of princes waiting for the crown". Which does not really fit to comments like: "I would always be ready to do my duty, if France wants me!"( Does he mean the crown? It almost corresponds fully to the sentence, which Napoleons son Franz of Reichstad once said!) Somewhere on the first look there are more than a few contradictions in Louis Napoleon´s attitude towards his family traditions, the monarchy etc, I think, but if you put if all together I suppose that Louis saw himself rather as somebody , who had from birth on the duty to save the napoleonic traditions, not expecting or looking for any crown, but that saving of the napoleonic tradtions is something, which he handles in a quite strict and somewhere very conservative way, not having much understanding for other views how to deal with the napoleonic heritage. The most important example seems to be his son, whose attitudes of the dealing with the napoleonic heritage he does not accept, even if he is no monarchist, but a republican. For Charles Napoleon the fact seems to be important that the napoleonic tradition is fullfilled by giving the title and the heritage to his son, but how the new coming heir (here we mean Jean C.) handles with it , he lets much more freedom (the contrary of his father, it seems so).  I personally hold the opinion that Louis Napoleons gave his grandson the title and the heritage, not because he considered him more conservative than Charles- that is hardly possible that this young man in our age will act more in the strict senses of grandfather Louis that Charles would do and does, but I think he simply gave him the title because he was not satisfied with his son and so passed it to the next possible male heir (but couldn´t he have chosen Jerome Napoleon as well? Would it have been against the laws, I don´t know at the moment ???).

part 2 of the comment follows
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 01, 2007, 10:02:53 AM
The next interesting aspect is how the marriage of Charles Napoleons is seen by the Bonapartes and the Orleans. As the text writes the marriage was neither much in the sense of the Bonaparte clan (Louis Napoleon, his father especially) nor in that of the Bourbons. In that connection the fact was new to me that Charles and Beatrice lived a lot of time together without the blessing of the priest, which shows that the circumstances seemed to be quite difficult because of the still opposed families. I know a doctor, who used to know Charles Napoleon personally. His name is Joachim Zeitz and he has also written a book on Napoleon and has won a price for it, and he confirmed me the same, that he relationship of Bourbon and Bonaparte is still very complicated. It´s quite strange if you consider that Henri and Louis had a lot of same ansistors and are distant cousins. I wonder, how it will be in future. Will the relationship become more relaxed than today in future? We must consider how many years the Bourbons and Bonapartes do no reign anymore -already now) It´s hard to answer, but would be interesting to examine. It was also interesting to read that the affair with the marriage of Charles and Beatrice has reinformed his father to stay out of the limelight. This connection of facts was new to me as well, I must say. There are two other aspects, which were quite new to me, and which I did not get to know before. One is the huge wealth of Louis, which is decribed very well in one of the four texts. I was already convinced before that Louis Napoleon and his family seemed to lead a quite well-off living, but I did not expect that Louis Napoleon was that rich, that he is a multimillionaire, how says the text- and that the things, his family owns go so far (also in the geographical sense: like the coffee plantations in Africa and things like that. What is now with it? Does not Charles watch over it ??? Or was it sold?). I never read that somewhere else, I must say, and I was quite amazed, also about the fact or the statement, that Louis used to increase his wealth so much. It´s something interesting and something very new to me.
The other interesting aspect, which I meant was Louis Napoleons relationship to the press and the public. I would not have expected that Louis Napoleon was hiding himself that much from the press and the public and everything, which is connected with it. I always knew that the Bonapartes seemed and seem to be a quite descrete family, without any real scandals like it is often the case in other royal families, but I thought it was simply the "character" of that family, simply their "disposition". But now it seems to me that his stay out of the limelight was rather some kind of arranged by Louis, because of some indispositions of his family (like the marriage of Charles with Beatrice and later with Francoise, who isn´t if nobility and things like that). May it be like that or is it only my personal feeling? I don´t know. The scene with the journalist, who wanted to interview Louis Napoleon about his attitude towards being the pretender of a throne or not is quite mysterious. Was Louis running awas that much from giving any interviews? And why? Why was the journalist treated so badly and so barsh, almost like a criminal, who wanted to steal something away? And all the circumstances with the house of Louis, which was secured that much, that the police came immedialety if somebody touched anything is quite strange to me and lets some questions open to me. In the point de Vue papers I would not expected that he was so little kind towards journalists and people from the public. All this makes this family even more to something mysterious, which lets many things open. I always imaged Louis Napoléon with his typical smile completey differently. Interesting was the widespread sport interest of Louis Napoleon, which seems to share his whole family. But after all of this I begin to think, that Charles Napoleon, even if he is completely different from his father in his political views, seems to share this not wanting a give interviews and hiding from wanting to speak about the family a bit and is in that point similar to his father. So I rather doubt now that I once will have any chance of speaking with him. He always offers a phone call, but never gives a date, that was already suspicious to me, and when I answer to his last letter, he does not repeat anything. Is there some similarity to the father´s treatment of the public and the journalists?

Again some very great thanks for presenting these texts, Benjamin. It was a pleasure to me to read them and comment them abit, even if they let open some questions for me. Please do not look at my horrible English, I was simply to lazy to look up more vocab. to express myself in a better way (don´t we have another candidate on the board being like that or even worse ;D)

Thanks, and please if you find more texts of that kind , post them. It´s interesting to recollect all of them to complete our picture of Louis and Charles Napoleons family, and to fill spaces of the puzzle, which are still empty.  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on January 01, 2007, 11:57:32 PM
These four texts very interesting. Certainly, they give some representation about the modern families ever reigned in France. Probably, someone from bonapartists considers restoration of the French monarchy by impossible business. Probably, someone from bonapartists considers Orleanists dreams of the French throne unrealizable and unreal. Probably, Bonapartes, Bourbons and Orleans not too in a friendly way concern to each other. But I consider, that restoration of old and pre-revolutionary French kingdom is impossible, because nobody can replace Louis XVII which was the son of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette. Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette were killed, and their son has been stirred up by the bad reference and famine. French people has managed to rise, betray king and to kill it in 1789 - 1793. Then this people repeatedly revolted. I think, under the certain circumstances the French people will manage to make it even in 100-th time.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 02, 2007, 04:19:56 AM
Dmitry, I hope it appears now more clear to you that the Bonapartes of today are not watching for the crown in any way, because you once seemed quite afraid of that.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 04, 2007, 07:51:34 AM
I have here a link to a website, which had a very nice picture of the young Prince Jean Christophe. He is really charming to me!
Unfortunately it´s PDF, but I hope it´s no problem to you.

www.gotha-fr.com/Documents/personnel%20et%20confidentiel.pdf

I enjoyed this picture very much. Jean´s smile to the left side reminds me still of his grandfather Louis:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/2823.jpg)

But his eyes are very blue, which reminds me a bit on his Bourbon side, his uncle and his mother have these blue eyes as well, but in many things he is rather similar to the fathers side, What do you think?


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 26, 2007, 02:16:46 PM
I doubt that it was really noticed or seen by anybody, but in the link above there is a pretty nice photo of Jean Christophe, I hope there are no problems because of PDF file.

 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on January 27, 2007, 01:05:10 PM
Thanks very much for the picture of Jean Christophe as well as the postcard of Louis :). The PDF file is not a problem.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 27, 2007, 01:57:11 PM
Do you consider him much similar to the father from the picture?

I think it would be interesting to talk to him and ask him about his view concerning the napoleonic heritage in our times...He must already have different tasks, and I hope very much during the next years, where he becomes older, there will be more to know about him and his life & views. Until now it is simply too little to get a complete picture of what he is like.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on January 28, 2007, 05:34:10 AM
To me it is indifferent, as this young guy will dispose of napoleonic "inheritance". But I assume, that it will be very delicate and clever enough to maintain normal relations with the Bourbons relatives. I think, this young man will try to not be shone publicly. I still also hope, that the father of this young man will appear clever enough to not be involved in any political scandals and will limit the political ambitions to a place in any legislative assembly or a post in any city mayoralty.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 28, 2007, 02:34:31 PM
Thanks for mentioning the article, I had just seen it some minutes before... ;) At the moment there are quite a lot reports and articles appearing on Charles Napoleon´s plans and his political career, which really seems to become "serious" by now. It also seems to me that he "expands" his plans with the time, and wants to come higher. I have read that he also plans to become major of Fonainebleau in future, as this town is connected with Napoleon and napoleonic tradition. It´s really interesting, he seems to be the first Bonaparte, who is so seriously and full-time involved in politics. It´s interesting to think about what he might do in some years, maybe we will become more famous and more involved in general politics of his country- not only regional like at the beginning. His website has increased its information a lot, I have just looked at it again, and it seems to me that he has many many plans and projects for the future and for his country, as his texts he writes and presents are very very long and detailled. It now seems really clear to me that he totally busy. Have you watched his website during the last days??
I was quite amazed to see that it has increased that much with its information. When I remember it some years go or when I saw it the first time, it was much shorter. Interesting are also the many newspaper articles, which Charles has scanned and brought on his website, it shows how deep his relations with politics really are.
Somewhere I have the feeling that Charles might be a person for more...a person, who has the things for doing more than only a simple regional career in future...and I personally would greet it :D

I have just also found an article, which brings much backgound about the "dynastic dispute" and the "Disheritaion of Charles by his father." There are many things, which I haven´t known before.

I will read through it during the next days and then bring some new things and aspects on the board. I can also give the link, if somebody is interested.  :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 30, 2007, 01:49:11 AM
Here are some of the scanned articles of Charle´s website,

I like this election poster...

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/manchette_tract2.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/CNAorange.jpg)


Some articles about his activities....

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/20minutes080107.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Article.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/sncf.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 03, 2007, 06:22:49 PM
Thanks so much for all these informations, Britta. Very nice that Charles is in the news these days.

I would be very interested in the link that the article that you mentioned.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 04, 2007, 08:52:37 AM
Hello, it was easy to find, because all these articles and posters, which I posted, come from Charles personal website, which was already mentioned here. He seems to modify it very often,  at the moment there are a lot of texts about his projects and so on. He shall have written a new book about the politics and the future of France as well ;) His next plan, apart from becoming a member in the parliament ,  to become major of Fontainebleau as this city is much connected with his ancestor´s history.

The other mentioned article is on the site www.answers.com, fill in: Charles Napoléon and it will appear.  Even if it is "only" a dictionary article it is very detailled. Especially many notes & facts about the difficult disheritation of Charles (which he - as it seems- never really accepted) were new to me. Maybe you have known them already- I didn´t ;)



Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 20, 2007, 01:42:06 PM
One more postcard of little Louis Napoléon aged about seven:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0396.jpg)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 23, 2007, 07:36:30 PM
Thank you very much for posting that postcard, Britta. I had never seen this image before.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 24, 2007, 03:42:10 AM
It comes from Ebay, I had just bought it there some time ago ;)
The seller has many interesting postcards, also about Clementine, Victor Napoleon etc.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 24, 2007, 12:04:56 PM
Here is a photo of Pr Jean Christophe
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7319/jeanchristophepc0.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jeanchristophepc0.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 24, 2007, 06:30:06 PM
And a picture of Jérôme Napoléon
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4035/jeromevv5iu7.jpg
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 25, 2007, 08:06:47 AM
I have already seen this picture of Jean Christophe some time ago, and I wondered, who posted it. It´s nice, but where does it come from?
I think it was posted in a french Wiki- article. Maybe it comes from any newspaper or something. They are really so rare, the pictures of Prince Jean Christophe.
@Benjamin, have you read the article about Charles Napoleon and his disheritation (correct word? ???) in between?  (www.answers.com) I found it very profound, even if it is only a dictionary article...more in private.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 25, 2007, 08:52:24 AM



Yes, I read the article on Charles Napoleon and his being disinherited. It was a surprisingly well-written article (for an online encyclopedia).
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Quin on February 25, 2007, 05:54:34 PM
Here is a photo of Pr Jean Christophe
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7319/jeanchristophepc0.th.jpg) (http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jeanchristophepc0.jpg)

JC has a prestigeous genealogical background.  Did his father win the election?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on February 25, 2007, 09:13:19 PM
This guy has no rights to the French throne. In France there is a code with rules of inheritance of the French throne. This code refers to SALIC LAWS. They DISQUALIFY women, as possible successors of the French throne.  ;D
JC has a bourbon mother, but his mother have no rights to the French throne
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Quin on February 26, 2007, 12:53:11 AM
This guy has no rights to the French throne. In France there is a code with rules of inheritance of the French throne. This code refers to SALIC LAWS. They DISQUALIFY women, as possible successors of the French throne.  ;D
JC has a bourbon mother, but his mother have no rights to the French throne


Your comment does not diminish the prestige of JC's genealogical back ground particularly in an age of unequal if not marriages to commoners.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 26, 2007, 03:09:03 AM
Hello Quin,

Nice to see another here on that topic. Have you been interested in the Bonapartes as well?  Do you have an idea, where to find more infos on Jean Christophe? Infos are very rare.  In wide circles he seems unknown, which is a pity. But yes, his genealogical background is very interesting, he has many Bourbon relatives, which is fascinating!  I am curious, who he will marry in some years. He already fulfills important tasks concerning his napoleonic heritage. ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on February 26, 2007, 06:36:58 AM
I care about who JC Bonaparte married in the future. I do not think it is Prince, who equal to a European aristoctocratic family. I do not think that this guy is just supporters. I do not want it to be known in some degree. I wish it were true that he was unknown to anyone.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 26, 2007, 09:02:24 AM
I don´t think that most circles judge him like you do it.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on February 27, 2007, 12:00:33 AM
What problems concerning napoleonic heritage JC Bonaparte carries out?
I hope, that it will be reasonable enough and delicate person to keep good related communications with Bourbons if at all such related communications exist between napoleonic prince and Bourbons  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 27, 2007, 01:48:16 AM
From an old doctor, who is also interested in Napoleon and his ansistors, and who wrote a book, won a price, and got to know Prince Napoléon (note: Even if you don´t accept it: The official title of the family, who is Napoleon´s heir is not "Bonaparte", but Prince Napoléon)  told me that even today, after all these years the relations between the Bourbons (Orléans) and the Bonaparte family are still not without problems, which I would not have expected in our modern times, but I am of the opinion that in the coming years the relations surely will not become worse, but better, because times are changing. To the time of Prince Louis Napoleon, who was quite conservative it was said (so a text what our dearest member @Benjamin once posted here) that Henri of Orleans and Louis Napoleon would never have said something against each other in public, but in fact, when both were invited to the same festival only one of the two appeared. So there was still some sceptism and some dislike (because of the history, which is paradox because both are distant cousins with the same blood), but I hope that in future the relations will change for the better, because Charles Napoleon  (and even more his son, I suppose) are very modern in their views.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 28, 2007, 04:09:39 PM
From the style I would say sixties or seventies, what do you think about it?

Probably the late fifties or early sixties, I would say. But I can't be sure because there weren't any informations with the picture.

It is really amazing to me that someone can be so stunning after having had four children.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on February 28, 2007, 04:14:16 PM
You could not send me your photos? In fact you the young girl. I could send you my photos.  ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 01, 2007, 02:15:45 AM
I´ll write you a PM or a mail that days. I was very very busy with university  because of many exams :-\
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 09, 2007, 08:01:13 PM
(http://www.gotha-fr.com/Photos/_200sc0001279c(001).jpg)

Here is a picture of the Princess Napoleon taken around Dec 2006. It is in connection with the documentary Un nom en héritage which featured the Napoleons (this documentary is, I'm assuming, the source of that YouTube video of Jean Christophe).

http://www.gotha-fr.com/8.aspx is the photo's source.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 09, 2007, 08:14:55 PM
(http://www.farahpahlavi.org/napo1.jpg)

Here is the Princess Napoleon with the Empress Farah of Iran in Dec 2004

http://www.farahpahlavi.org/napoleon.html is the photo's source.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 10, 2007, 04:03:10 AM
Thanks, Seth, for these pictures, especially the first one was completely now to me, the second one I remember to have seen before. The one with Princess Napoleon and her son (it is Prince Charles N., isn´t it him? It looks like him, but somewhere he looks a bit unusual and younger than on othe pics... :o) is very nice. I really wished to get to know Princess Napoleon once, she seems always such an elegant, but still friendly and interesting person, but oh, that´s all so difficult... :P

Here is again the link to "Un nom en héritage", for the case that somebody might have overseen it. Jean C. looks very smart there...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 10, 2007, 04:05:31 AM
www.gotha-fr.com/Documents/personnel%20et%20confidentiel.pdf

Does it stand in any connection with the picture you sent before? Or didn´t I understand this correctly?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 10, 2007, 06:11:59 PM
Yes, the picture is in connection with the documentary.

I wonder if Un nom en héritage is available for purchase... It comprised of three episodes about the Napoléons, Orléans, and some other family that I don't remember at the moment.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 10, 2007, 06:26:24 PM
Thanks, Seth, for these pictures, especially the first one was completely now to me, the second one I remember to have seen before. The one with Princess Napoleon and her son (it is Prince Charles N., isn´t it him? It looks like him, but somewhere he looks a bit unusual and younger than on othe pics... :o) is very nice. I really wished to get to know Princess Napoleon once, she seems always such an elegant, but still friendly and interesting person, but oh, that´s all so difficult... :P

You are very welcome :). I found it on while I was looking for more information about that documentary (which I only noticed because it was in that Answers.com article about Charles Napoléon that you kindly posted).

I don't know if that is Charles...the man in the picture has longer hair than Charles and his facial structure looks a little different.

I do wonder how close that the Princess and her eldest son are. The most recent picture I have seen of the Princess Napoleon with her son is from the late 60s or early 70s. Compare that to the Princess being photographed with her former daughter-in-law at royal gatherings in the past ten years. I wouldn't find it hard to belief that their relationship is probably a bit complicated, even almost ten years after the late Prince Napoléon's death and that whole succession dispute that came with it.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 10, 2007, 06:27:54 PM
Pr Charles Napoléon at the Louvre in 2004
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4212/1160925polfoto1cn4.th.jpg) (http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1160925polfoto1cn4.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 11, 2007, 04:34:35 AM
Yes, the picture is in connection with the documentary.

I wonder if Un nom en héritage is available for purchase... It comprised of three episodes about the Napoléons, Orléans, and some other family that I don't remember at the moment.

It must include the Hapsburgs as well, because of the link I posted are the pictures of Henri of Orléans, Jean Christophe Napoléon, and Catharina of Austria, wife of count Maximilian Secco di Aragona, daughter of Archduke Rudolf, one of the sons of Karl I and Zita. Beside her the portraits of Franz Joseph I and Elisabeth (Sisi). 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 11, 2007, 04:40:55 AM
Thanks, Seth, for these pictures, especially the first one was completely now to me, the second one I remember to have seen before. The one with Princess Napoleon and her son (it is Prince Charles N., isn´t it him? It looks like him, but somewhere he looks a bit unusual and younger than on othe pics... :o) is very nice. I really wished to get to know Princess Napoleon once, she seems always such an elegant, but still friendly and interesting person, but oh, that´s all so difficult... :P

You are very welcome :). I found it on while I was looking for more information about that documentary (which I only noticed because it was in that Answers.com article about Charles Napoléon that you kindly posted).

I don't know if that is Charles...the man in the picture has longer hair than Charles and his facial structure looks a little different.

I do wonder how close that the Princess and her eldest son are. The most recent picture I have seen of the Princess Napoleon with her son is from the late 60s or early 70s. Compare that to the Princess being photographed with her former daughter-in-law at royal gatherings in the past ten years. I wouldn't find it hard to belief that their relationship is probably a bit complicated, even almost ten years after the late Prince Napoléon's death and that whole succession dispute that came with it.

It´s an interesting thought to analyse the relationship of Charles and her mother, Princess Napoléon. I wished I had more infos. I always had the feeling that they have a good relationship, but maybe I am wrong. are you sure that the last pictures with Princess Alix and her son are from the seventies? I seem to remember that there are photos, where both are attending special occasions together, but surely, those are official things. About the private itßs hard to judge, I think. Yes, but since there are pictures with princess Napoléon and Beatrice, it might be that the relationsnhip to the son is not so good, but I have nothing to prove it, it´s a pity.
By the way, there exist pictures, where Prince Charles Napoleon wears that kind of longer hair, but that was when he was some years younger. But I wonder, who this man should be, if not Charles. Strange... :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 19, 2007, 07:03:14 AM
Here is a photo with Prince Charles Napoléon and his father Louis in 1994.
Photos of him and his father in older age are rare in my opinion. The most of him and his father are from times, where Charles was still very young. This was three years before Louis´death:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/PICT0547.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on March 21, 2007, 05:40:39 PM
At them any bashful, thievish, constraining sight
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 22, 2007, 01:55:18 AM
I did not really understand your comment. You don´t like or critisize the facial expression of father and son?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on March 22, 2007, 07:13:13 AM
Article on Charles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/21/wnapo21.xml

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 22, 2007, 07:32:06 AM
I only wonder about one thing, which I always read again in interviews and texts with the politician Charles Napoléon: That he says to hold the opinion that Napoleons was not the enemy of the English. I think that is strange. He always says that Napoleon did not see the english as we believe it.  :o
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 23, 2007, 10:15:31 PM
Britta,
Thanks so much for that picture of Louis and Charles. I hadn't ever seen such a recent picture of the two. They look so happy to be in each others company :-X.

Lucien,
Thank you for that article about Charles. It was very interesting when it said that Charles grew up "resenting his ultraconservative father." I thought that was rather blunt.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 24, 2007, 03:52:23 AM
What do you personally think about the opinion of Charles concerning his ancestor´s view on the English? :P

And was it ironic, that they look happy ::)? I think Charles does not really look "happy" or very "satisfied" on that picture... :o

It´s also obvious (so I think) that father and son keep a little distance and do not look very closely to each other...(or do only I see it like that?)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 31, 2007, 10:03:02 AM
I find it hard to believe that the first Napoleon was not an enemy of the British. He was in a state of war against them for most of his reign. If Napoleon wasn't an enemy of the British, then what was he? He obviously wasn't an ally. And I imagine that he would kind of dislike him for both the times they effectively had him deposed due to his defeats at Leipzig and Waterloo.

I was using irony when I was referring to the picture of Louis and Charles. They definately don't seem to like being around one another in that picture. I agree with you that the late Prince Napoleon and his eldest son seemed to be keeping their distance.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 31, 2007, 11:57:08 AM
At them any bashful, thievish, constraining sight

Did you understand the meaning of this comment? ;D ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 31, 2007, 12:47:01 PM
At them any bashful, thievish, constraining sight

Did you understand the meaning of this comment? ;D ;D

My answer would have to be a definitive NO! ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 02, 2007, 12:53:21 AM
Sometimes the machines do not work properly, so it seems to me ;D ;D ::)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 05, 2007, 10:22:01 AM
On 19 Mar 2007 H.I.H. the Princess Napoléon attended a Napoleonic event where she laid a wreath at some memorial.
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6281/untitledci4.th.png) (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledci4.png)
http://vieilleries.over-blog.com/article-6075578.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 05, 2007, 10:29:16 AM
Here is an excerpt from a posting on the "Le 13eme Régiment des Dragons Parachutistes Blog" about the Princess's role as that regiment's "marraine" (godmother?):

Quote
Issu du Régiment des Dragons de l'Impératrice, le 13è Régiment de dragons parachutistes a pour marraine depuis 1959, son Altesse Impériale la Princesse Napoléon.
L'émotion de SI. La Princesse Alix Napoléon n'était pas feinte lorsque le général d'armée aérienne Douin, ancien CEMA (ancien chef d'état-major des Armées) l'a faite Chevalier de la Légion d'Honneur dans le cadre d'une brillante réception organisée au Palais de la Légion d'Honneur à Paris.


http://dragonpara.skyblog.com/
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 05, 2007, 01:34:08 PM
Hello, and thanks very much for the recent infos and pictures. They are very interesting. It´s wonderful, how the Princess Napoléon still takes part in so many activities. But I wished to see people like her grandson or even her second son Jerome more often. It seems that she often fulfills her tasks alone, but she does it very well. And I must say it again, the look for her age is very good! For me she definetely looks younger than she is.
Concerning the funeral ...I am not sure, if my theory is right (it may be a completely other person), but to me the man with the white hair next to Princess Alix looks la bit ike Prince Antoine de Ligne, who is even a distant cousin of the present Bonapartes through his line from Caroline Bonaparte and Joachim Murat. Antoine died in 2005 , but I looked it up: in summer, and the funeral pictures are from January, so it could be him, but certainly it can be wrong.... ::)

He also looks a bit like this man from another picture from the same site:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/lux99EE6222.jpg)

If it is him, it cannot be Antoine, because this is not Antoine, but ...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000308471-006.jpg)


for me it is rather similar to this, and this is Antoine. Could be the same man at the side of the princess?


Here a picture when younger (from the ERHJ):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0140.jpg)


What do you think? I am not sure, only a possibility.

Thanks again for the picture.  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 05, 2007, 01:50:19 PM
Some more direct descendance of Napoleon I. :

Grandson of Napoleon, Alexandre (-Antoine) Walewski (son of Alexander W. and actress Rachel Felix):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/AAW-1.jpg)


Greatgrandson of the emperor, André Walewski:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/AndreW.jpg)


Two more Walewski descendants: Alexandre, Florian (the last one had died some years ago during a napoleonic festival... :'( )

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Alexandre.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Florian.jpg)


Greatgrandson of the emperor, count Jacques Matheús : grandson of Napoleons granddaughter Eugenie Walewski (some state she was rather a daughter of Napoleon III than of Walewski, because Anna Maria Ricci, second wife of Napoleon´s son Alexandre, was a mistress of
Nap. III! :P

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Jacques20Matheus.jpg)



Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 05, 2007, 02:15:55 PM
Britta,
Firstly, thank you very much for all these pictures of the Walewskis. May I ask how Florian Walewski died?

Secondly, I think you are right that the man next to Princess Alix is the late Antoine de Ligne. However I don't think he is in the #6222 picture. The man next to her more resembles the photo of Antoine from Corbis, I think. Thanks very much for answering that question. Do you have any idea who the two ladies are next to Alix?

I think it is interesting that the Princess Napoléon was given precedence over the Comte and Comtesse de Paris. Although I guess that was because Louis Napoleon was so closely related to Josephine-Charlotte. But if the late Henri d'Orléans (d.1999) had been alive and invited to the funeral, he wouldn't have attended if he knew he'd have to give precedence to a Bonaparte.

Also, according to a guestlist at the Royals Portal Forum (http://www.royals-portal.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=6538), Princess Laure and Prince Jérôme were also supposed to have been there.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 05, 2007, 02:18:51 PM
Grandson of Napoleon, Alexandre (-Antoine) Walewski (son of Alexander W. and actress Rachel Felix):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/AAW-1.jpg)

Didn't Plon-Plon have an affair with Rachel Felix?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 06, 2007, 03:59:52 AM
Britta,
Firstly, thank you very much for all these pictures of the Walewskis. May I ask how Florian Walewski died?

Secondly, I think you are right that the man next to Princess Alix is the late Antoine de Ligne. However I don't think he is in the #6222 picture. The man next to her more resembles the photo of Antoine from Corbis, I think. Thanks very much for answering that question. Do you have any idea who the two ladies are next to Alix?

I think it is interesting that the Princess Napoléon was given precedence over the Comte and Comtesse de Paris. Although I guess that was because Louis Napoleon was so closely related to Josephine-Charlotte. But if the late Henri d'Orléans (d.1999) had been alive and invited to the funeral, he wouldn't have attended if he knew he'd have to give precedence to a Bonaparte.

Also, according to a guestlist at the Royals Portal Forum (http://www.royals-portal.de/forum/index.php?showtopic=6538), Princess Laure and Prince Jérôme were also supposed to have been there.


Hello, I didn´t ask Nathalie about the death of her father, but on a napoleonic site of 2003 there was a mourning article on him and it was to read that he attended a napoleonic festival and was giving a speech and everything on one of the days, and all seemed Ok with him. On the next say his people were waiting for him and he didn´t appear. So when the hotel stuff was informed and was coming into the room, he was found dead- I had evidently suffered a heart attack or a stroke in the morning and nobody could help him anymore. He was only 68.
It´s strange, because his ancestor Alexandre suffered the same kind of death. I have recently bought a book in Alexander, son of Napoleon, (it´s in french and from 1943 and I have some problems to understand everything), and there is was written, that Alexander W. seemed still very healthy, when he arrived at Straßbourg in 1868. Suddenly he cried for his daughter: "Bring me a glass of water... I need a doctor!" He opened his waistcoat and his tie and break down in a chair. He was dead. The doctors examined him and found out that he had died of a cerebral hemorrage/ apoplexy.
I suppose it might have been similar with Florian. After 2003 his brother Alexandre took over the title of the current count Walewski and now fulfills the tasks....

About the picture of the funeral. No, the man on pic 6222 of course isn´t Antoine. I only said, if the man is the same as on that pic it cannot be him, but I don´t think that they are the same persons. It really could be Antoine. About the ladies I am very unsure. The faces are not to recognize very well, and all of them all dressed in a very similar way. I only have the thought that they might be the sisters- in -law of Prince Antoine. He was married to Alix of Luxemburg, daughter of Charlotte of Lux. and Felix of Bourbon -Parma. Alix also had at least two sisters, and the ladies on the pic do resemble a bit to Antoine´s wife (corbis picture, it´s his wife beside him), but I AM REALLY NOT SURE. They can be totally other people.  :-[

The precendence of the Princess Napoleon, who stands in the near of the Comte of Paris is really interesting. Yes, I also think that the father of the present count of Paris, who died in 1999, wouldn´t have appeared on a festival/ceremony together with a Bonaparte. I remember your interesting text, where we learned that expecially Prince Louis Napoleon and the late Comte Paris never went to the same festival, even when they did not openly offend each other. "Usually when both were invited only one came" said the text. It´s really interesting to see Princess Alix and the Comte of Paris behind her! ;) :o I wonder, how the relation of the Bonapartes and Orléans develops in future... :-X

It´s interesting that Princess Laure and Princess Jerome were present there as well. I wished there was any picture, where they are to see. But on the whole page i didn´t find any. It´s also a bit strange, because I would have expected them in the near of the mother....What a pity! In the first marriage Laure was married to Niccolo di San Germano, who is a relative of the belgian royal family as well.
This might be one more reason for her presence?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 06, 2007, 04:19:29 AM
Grandson of Napoleon, Alexandre (-Antoine) Walewski (son of Alexander W. and actress Rachel Felix):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/AAW-1.jpg)

Didn't Plon-Plon have an affair with Rachel Felix?

Really? It would interest me, where you read this. As far as I know Rachel was famous for her affairs with many men, from the poor to the high ranks. But concerning the Bonapartes, she only had an affair with Napoleon´s son Alexander, as far as I know. This affair was quite famous, and their son Alexandre (-Antoine) was born in 1844. When she died early (she had a poor health), Alexander adopted his son by Rachel and let him grow together with his other kids of Anna Maria Ricci. All todays Walewski descendants of Alexandre come from the line of his son by Rachel. I don´t know about any affair with Plon-Plon, or did you confuse anything? ::)
I will look it up again ;)
More of pics of the family I put under the thread about Napoleon and his women, but on the board the quality is rather poor.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 06, 2007, 09:55:00 AM
Didn't Plon-Plon have an affair with Rachel Felix?

Really? It would interest me, where you read this. As far as I know Rachel was famous for her affairs with many men, from the poor to the high ranks. But concerning the Bonapartes, she only had an affair with Napoleon´s son Alexander, as far as I know. This affair was quite famous, and their son Alexandre (-Antoine) was born in 1844. When she died early (she had a poor health), Alexander adopted his son by Rachel and let him grow together with his other kids of Anna Maria Ricci. All todays Walewski descendants of Alexandre come from the line of his son by Rachel. I don´t know about any affair with Plon-Plon, or did you confuse anything? ::)
I will look it up again ;)
More of pics of the family I put under the thread about Napoleon and his women, but on the board the quality is rather poor.
Yes, upon looking again in Plon-Plon: The Life of Prince Napoleon 1822-1891 by Edgar Holt, I found that they did indeed have an affair. Here are some excerpts:
Quote
p.45-46
When Jerome [Plon-Plon's father] went back to Brussels Prince Napoleon stayed in England, partly, no doubt, to have the pleasure of his cousin's company, and partly, one may fairly suspect, because Rachel, the brilliant and beautiful star of the Comedie-Francaise, was making and English tour. Plon-Plon was not yet her lover, but he was already in pursuit of her.
Though Rachel's love-affairs were not exclusively royal, her list of lovers was of the highest distinction. For three years she was the mistress of Count Walewski, the illegitimate son of Napoleon I and the Polish Marie Walewski. She had had an affair with the Prince de Joinville, one of Louis-Philippe's tall and handsome sons. And during her visits to England in 1846 and 1847 she became the mistress of Louis-Napoleon, hwo was clever enough to conduct their liaison without breaking with the rich Miss Howard. Plon-Plon was to be her last prince, and a slow train journey to the north of England in 1847 was the prelude to their long association of later years.
In August of that year Rachel was due to make her first appearances in Lancashire and Scotland. Louis-Napoleon travelled north with her, and rather surprisingly Plon-Plon went with them. In the course of the long journey Louis Napoleon went to sleep; on awakening he saw through half-shut eyes that his cousin and his mistress were locked in each other's arms. With great tact he closed his eyes and went back to sleep, but on the very next day he took the train back to London.
Plon-Plon seems to have realized that he could not detach Rachel from his cousin at this time...
Quote
p.59-60
It was at least a tribute to Plon-Plon's charm, if not to his moral worth, that he was able to acquire delightful mistresses at a time when he was far from wealthy. His reputation for 'debauchery' was gained in his years at the Invalides; a malicious old gossip, Count Viel-Castel, said in his memoirs that Plon-Plon made the Invalides a brothel... He may have done so, but it is quite certain that among his befellows were such talented actresses and singers as Judith, Rosina Stolz and, above all, Elisa-Rachel Felix, who was known to the world as Rachel. His conquest of Rachel was especially notable, for she was avaricious and generally chose lovers who could give her expensive presents.
After its unusual beginning in an English railway carriage Rachel's affair with Plon-Plon was briefly resumed in 1848, and after a temporary breach was firmly re-established in 1849...

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 06, 2007, 10:23:53 AM
It´s interesting that Princess Laure and Princess Jerome were present there as well. I wished there was any picture, where they are to see. But on the whole page i didn´t find any. It´s also a bit strange, because I would have expected them in the near of the mother....What a pity! In the first marriage Laure was married to Niccolo di San Germano, who is a relative of the belgian royal family as well.
This might be one more reason for her presence?

I too was quite disappointed that they didn't have a picture of Laure or Jérôme.

You are thinking of the other sister; it was Catherine who married Nicolò di San Germano. Catherine wasn't on the guestlist. Laure is married to Jean-Claude Lecomte.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 06, 2007, 11:45:11 AM
I don't know if you have seen this article on Charles already, but I'll go ahead and post it .

Der Letzte Bonaparte (14 Oct 2006)

http://www.charlesnapoleon.com/fichier/SDZ.jpg
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 06, 2007, 02:55:07 PM
Thanks very much for the parts of that book. I overestimated my knowledge on Rachel a lot, I really didn´t know that she was the mistress of different Bonapartes! Not at all. I only read about Walwewski. I am very sorry to have told you that it might be a confusion! Indeed you and your book had the better knowledge! But yes, I am here to learn :D ;D  Especially that Louis Napoleon and Plon-Plon shared her as lover...it´s funny that Napoleon III. saw his cousin lying in Rachels arms ;D ;D I didn´t even know that she had affairs with the sons of Louis Philippe as well. So she slept with three Bonaparte cousins as well as with the Orléans family...! What a Lady :o :o The book you mentioned must be very interesting. I must confess that I didn´t read any complete book on Prince Napoléon (Plon-Plon) until now.
There seemed to have been also some kind of competition between the cousins Plon-Plon and Louis Napoléon concerning the relationship of Rachel, even when the book says that Plon-Plon came later than Napoleon III. The affair with Alexandre must have been before that time, because the child of Rachel and Alexandre was born in 1844. The affair with Louis Napoléon began two years later, but yes, that´s good, three cousins at the same time, would have been too much I suppose... :P
The story is very interesting...I have just read an interesting book on Mrs. Howard, mistress of Napoleon III., last year, and it was very interesting as well. It was fascinating how this lady, who already had an illeg son from her early days and had a hard childhood, could come into the highest ranks and was one of Louis Napoleon´s closest people...The gossip of the days told that she had three sons of Louis Napoléon, what in fact wasn´t true, because it only seemed like that: She temporarily cared for Napoleon III´s illegitimate sons count de Labenne, and count d´Orx, but wasn´t their mother of course. Her only son was not the one of Napoleon III. but of another man, who she got to know before her time with Napoleon III. The gossip turned everything. Her way of life and her total abandonment to the emperor ("everything or nothing") was unique and described in a very interesting way the book. Her end of life was rather tragic, when Napoleon III finished the affair, she was very unhappy not only to have lost her lover, but also his children, who were now taken away from her and who she loved very much...The last years she lived in her residence and was never seen outside anymore...

And yes, it was a confusion..it was Catherine, who married Nicolò in her first marriage, and not Laure, who is Jean Claude Lecomte´s wife...My brain was far away this morning...sorry :-[

PS: the article I am reading tomorrow...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 29, 2007, 04:31:01 PM
Interesting news:

Laetitia de Witt has published a biography on her ancestor Prince Victor Napoléon. It is available on Amazon.fr.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 01, 2007, 04:54:39 AM
Hello!

Thanks for mentioning that the book of Laetitia is now available, but I suppose only in french, will there be any translation later? I don´t know.
Laetitia already gratuated at the Sorbonne with a work on her ansistor Victor some time ago. It´s interesting that her writing is now to buy!


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Mariage.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 01, 2007, 05:34:54 AM
Who these the young girl and the young man near to it?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 01, 2007, 07:55:14 AM
Hello,

Here are the dates of Laetitia de Witt, daughter of Baudoin the Witt, son of Marie-Clothilde Napoleon (1912-94)

Laetitia de Witt, b.Perigueux 11 Oct 7 1974 ; m.Cendrieux 19 Jun 2004 Jean Guillaume Marie Cte de Villelume (b.Boulogne-Billancourt 12 Mar 1961 )

The picture shows her marriage. I did not find any other until now.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 01, 2007, 03:48:39 PM
This count is the descendant of ancient (not supernew napoleonic) aristocratic sort?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 02, 2007, 06:31:25 AM
I am not sure, because I haven´t heard the name of the count before, he´s not one of very "grand figures" I think. But I don´t think that the title of the count was created by the emperor, I might have existed already before that time, I suppose. But I can only speculate, because I don´t know it for sure. If I find closer information I will inform you. 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 05, 2007, 07:11:39 AM
Jean-Christophe and his grandmother?
(http://www.farnboroughabbey.org/pictures/events/blessing/large/blessing10.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 05, 2007, 09:21:57 AM
That is who it appears to be. Thanks very much for the pictures, Britta and Dmitry.

I wonder when the last picture was taken. It looks recent.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 05, 2007, 10:01:48 AM
The Prince Napoléon and the Princess Napoléon on 21 Oct 2006
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4740/inaugurationneuillyimg1rm4.th.jpg) (http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=inaugurationneuillyimg1rm4.jpg)(http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2476/inaugurationneuillyimg2fu4.th.jpg) (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=inaugurationneuillyimg2fu4.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 05, 2007, 07:56:22 PM
Charles Napoleon in the centre of this picture
(http://www.corse.pref.gouv.fr/pages/EA/escale_FOUDRE/107-0737_IMG.JPG)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 06, 2007, 07:51:17 AM
Thanks very much for the pictures! ;)

Dmitry, where did you find the recent picture of Jean Christophe? It´s only the back, but interesting, the young man really becomes very tall like his father...!

Dear Seth, very nice are also your pics. Where do they come from? The one with Jean C. would be nice in a bit bigger, but not possible, is it?

THANKS! :D ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 11, 2007, 01:58:36 AM
I don´t know, if those pics were already seen. They are a bit older, but interesting:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000285916-004.jpg)


The old Prince Louis Napoléon, father of Charles etc, at a festival in 1993...


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000285916-001.jpg)


And what  found interesting, too is that picture from the marriage of Beatrice´s brother, the duke of Calabria:

Here we see Bonaparte and Bourbon families mixed:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/0000347641-011-1.jpg)

For example we see little Jean Christophe next to his mother standing near to "Louis XX" of France, we see the father of Beatrice of Bourbon, and also the brother of Charles Napoléon, Jérome, in the picture. See rather above...That´s interesting in my view!

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 11, 2007, 02:41:57 AM
Here is the cover of the book of Laetitia about her greatgrandfather:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/41jXa5VTwxL__SS500_.jpg)


And here.....

The newest book of Prince Charles Napoléon!!!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/versunenouvellefranceCOUV.jpg)

He really looks like some kind of a political "fighter" here. I am really curious about him in future... :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 12, 2007, 12:22:27 PM
Thanks very much for the pictures! ;)

Dear Seth, very nice are also your pics. Where do they come from? The one with Jean C. would be nice in a bit bigger, but not possible, is it?

THANKS! :D ;)

Hello,

I found those pictures on this site: http://www.association-notre-dame.org/Inauguration_Neuilly.htm. I'm afraid there isn't a better picture of Jean Christophe.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 12, 2007, 12:27:23 PM
Britta,

Thank you very much for the three photos of the Napoleon family. I especially like the 3rd one. I think the Princess Napoleon is to the right of Prince Jerome. To me it's interesting how they attended the wedding of the brother of their former daughter/sister-in-law. But it seems as though the Princess Napoleon is on good terms with Princess Beatrice.

Since a fair amount of the Bonapartes plus "Louis XX" were at the wedding, I'm assuming no Orleans attended :D.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 12, 2007, 01:55:20 PM
Here is an excerpt from A Throne in Brussels about Clementine, Princess Napoleon, and the difficulties she faced in getting married:

    "The princess was over thirty when, in 1904, she fell in love with Prince Victor Napoleon. He was the Bonapartist pretender to the throne of France. Ten years older than Clementine and still a bachelor, he lived as an exile in Brussels. Clementine asked her father for permission to marry the prince, but the king refused. He said that he did not want to offend the French republican government by having his daughter marry a Bonaparte. When she kept pressuring Leopold for his approval, the king unleashed a full-scale propaganda campaign against her.
    He had the Prime Minister, Count de Smet de Naeyer, as well as the Catholic Party leader Charles Woeste, write hostile letters condemning the marriage. Woeste, especially, was a man much feared. The son of a Protestant Prussian diplomat who had settled in Brussels after the Belgian Revolution, he had converted to Catholicism in order to join the governing Catholic Party...Woeste's message to the devout, conscientious Clementine was clear: it was her God-given duty not to marry. The leading editorial in the influential newspaper L'Independance Belge said: 'Princess Clementine, we are utterly convinced, cannot repay the affection of the Belgian people by forgetting her duty towards them, towards her father, and towards the Dynasty which is for ever inseparable from the great Belgian family.' This text had been anonymously written by Leopold himself. Clementine surrendered. In 1910, however, immediately after her father's death, the 38-year-old princess did marry Victor Napoleon. She was lucky that Leopold had died in time for her to still have children. Her daughter Marie-Clotilde was born in 1912 and her son Louis Napoleon in 1914. Through Clementine, the blood (and the nose) of the Bourbons was brought into the Bonaparte family. Victor Napoleon died in 1926, Clementine in 1955."
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 15, 2007, 03:22:10 AM
Firstly thanks a lot for the picture of Charles Napoléon, even when it seems older, it´s interesting and he is extremely good looking there in my opinion. I have read some time ago that he is still looking much younger than he is. He will always remain a wonderful charismatic person, who I admire....
The text about the marriage between Clementine of Belgium and Victor is very interesting. I had already read before that her father was strongly against the marriage of her daughter with a Bonaparte, but here the situation is explained worse than I would have imagined. I only thought that her father "simply" did not give her any permission to marry Victor, but it was worse: That he started something like a campaign against his own daughter together with other influencial people of his cirlcles, and wrote anonymous articles that she would brake with the family in case of a marriage with a Bonaparte etc, is worse and more difficult than I thought. It really shows that the position of the Bonaparte family, especially in comparison with other royal families, was still of problems at that time. They were not really seen as equal in comparison to the "legal french government" It also shows the general problem of love- marriages, which are often not possible because of political reasons. It must have been a hard time for Clementine, but I think she was lucky in the end that she could marry Victor after the death of her father Leopold II. If he had lived longer, it  would not have been possible anymore for her to have children, and maybe the line of Jerome would have died out (if Victor had not married somebody else...) But I now wonder a bit, why Louis Napoléon, son of Clemetine and Victor, and father of Charles, was so conservative and of so little understanding for his son marrying a Bourbon and later another lady, who he did not want, even when the marriage of his own parents was so complicated itself! Maybe it´s a stupid comment, but I wonder, if he ever thought of that.... :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 16, 2007, 04:03:46 AM
Sophie Napoleon
(http://www.nettyroyal.nl/images/sophienapoleon.jpg)
Unbelievably, but bastard daughter even so princess and her imperial highness...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 16, 2007, 05:54:03 AM
Wooaw!!! Where did you find this picture, Dmitry??? Can you name the source? I have NEVER seen that! I was always looking for Sophie without success. Is it really her? But yes, I think she´s quite beautiful and cute...Is there anything about her life in the source?

Please name it! Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 16, 2007, 06:28:28 AM
http://www.nettyroyal.nl/sophie.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 16, 2007, 09:51:43 AM
Yes, I knew this page before, but the picture is new!!! I hadn´t seen it before. So you worry about her title? ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 16, 2007, 04:21:58 PM
Sophie is illegitimate daughter of Charles Napoleon which married mother of the daughter much later. It is very surprising, that Sophie princess and her imperial highness. As to Louis Napoleon his mother was princess of blue blood. His father Victor waited for death of the father of his bride of 10 years then to marry lady of the heart. Thus, during very long time Victor was true the love and eventually all the same has achieved that. Then at them son Louis Napoleon was born. I can assume only, that Louis Napoleon was not against a marriage of his son and Bourbon princess. I think, Louis Napoleon would approve such wedding. I think, Louis Napoleon would be disappointed by their divorce. I think, Louis Napoleon could not recognize Charles Napoleon's second marriage to the Corsican lady. I think, presence of illegitimate daughter Charles Napoleon could not like to Louis Napoleon. I think, old Bonaparte could not recognize Sophie as the grand daughter. I think, not casually old Bonaparte has recognized the grandson as the successor. I know, that Charles Napoleon challenged the will of the father and I think, that he could recognize Sophie as the daughter and give her a title of princess and her imperial highness.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 16, 2007, 06:34:38 PM
Indeed, thank you very much for the discovery of this picture, Dmitry! I didn't know that Netty had done a profile of Sophie.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 17, 2007, 03:00:52 AM
Did Charles really marry Francoise much later after the birth of Sophie?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on May 17, 2007, 04:17:51 PM
Britta, I have a request to you to look attentively my previous message
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 18, 2007, 02:05:16 AM
I have to check the dates on genealogies... :-X
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 18, 2007, 08:21:41 PM
Charles married his second wife about four years after their daughter's birth.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 19, 2007, 07:28:40 AM
It´s strange that he waited to long, was it maybe because of his father? I was just calculating, Sophie was born in 1992, and Louis died in 1997. But in the case that he waited for his fathers death it would have been five years, not four...But I suppose problems in family, maybe therefore he waited so long to marry Francoise.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 20, 2007, 03:18:53 AM



Do you know anything about why Charles waited so long to marry Ms. Valliccioni? I am not sure about that point.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on May 21, 2007, 02:28:30 PM
I'm not sure why Charle s waited. Maybe he was waiting for parental approval and then just gave up and went ahead and married her.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 21, 2007, 03:32:35 PM
It´s really a pity that I never achieved to interview him...even his brother doesn´t respond!

Charles seems to be very busy at the moment. Just take a look at the new logo of his website....:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/untitled.jpg)


(www.charlesnapoleon.com)

He is evidently working togehter with another man, I have never heard the other name. But I am not very good at french politics... ::)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 01, 2007, 07:25:28 PM
Here is a page of Charles Napoleon's website which shows a recent article on him from Point de Vue. There are two recent pictures of his family.

http://www.charlesnapoleon.com/pages/article.asp?numero=91&rubrique=revue%20de%20presse%20:%20nationale
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 02, 2007, 03:10:08 PM
Thanks a lot for posting this link, I didn´t know that the picture in Netty´s profile was from that family picture. It´s indeed interesting, it would be good to know, which PdV magazine it is, then one could try to get it and the full article.  ;)
I wonder, how frequent are the contacts of Charles to his other two children. Even in the interview " a life in a day" (you hear more about my opinion in private, because it was not posted her...or should we post it here?) he does only mention his "two daughters", which means his recent family...but nevertheless the picture is interesting, I wished the face of Charle´s wife would be clearer to see :P
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 02, 2007, 03:12:57 PM
UUPs, I see now that I was wrong ;D Now where I copy the page I see the whole article and one more picture of Charles´wife... :D
It seems also that Charles relation to his son can´t be too bad because they are discussing about politics as the article says. The article is very informative!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 02, 2007, 08:12:57 PM
It seems as though Caroline is very close to her mother. I read on another royal board (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/620768-post102.html) that the two attended a Louis Vuitton function recently.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 03, 2007, 02:49:28 AM
Thanks for that information. Anybody knows in which number of the PdVs it was? The other board says "from last week", which was it?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on June 10, 2007, 10:41:20 AM
It´s really a pity that I never achieved to interview him...even his brother doesn´t respond!

Charles seems to be very busy at the moment. Just take a look at the new logo of his website....:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/untitled.jpg)


(www.charlesnapoleon.com)

He is evidently working togehter with another man, I have never heard the other name. But I am not very good at french politics... ::)

Election day in France,click on "French decide on Sarkozy's mandate",and see who pops up....

http://edition.cnn.com/

Btw,Francois Bayrou was running for president along with Segolène Royale and Sarkozy Britt.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 10, 2007, 11:52:53 AM
Oh my god! Call me stupid now that I did not know that!! Was too busy in the last time and always heard only of Royal and Sarkozy...sorry...what a blame... :P :-\ :'( :P And: May be I am such an old Bonapartist that I don´t see the todays politicians of France  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 10, 2007, 06:06:38 PM
From today's edition of my local paper:

Napoleon's sword goes on auction block
FONTAINEBLEAU, France (AP)--After more than 200 years in the family, the gold-encrusted sword Napoleon carried into battle in Italy will be auctioned off Sunday, across the street from one of his imperial castles.
The intricately decorated blade is 32 inches long and curves gently--an inspiration he drew from his Egyptian campaign, said auctioneer Jean-Pierre Osenat. It has an estimated value of at least $1.6 million.

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2007, 02:44:59 AM
It´s amazing! Thanks for the info! Do you know, or does anybody know, which family members of Napoleon inheritated this sword, and who decided to sell it??  Was it inheritated by the lines of the Princes Napoleon? As far as I know Baudouin de Witt, son of Clothilde Napoléon, and therefore cousin to Charles also heritated a lot of napoleonic things, and some time ago they opened the Pommerie as Napoleon Museum to show many of those things to the publicity, but despite of that I don´t think that was the owner of the sword. Does anybody know more?

Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on June 11, 2007, 04:06:38 AM
From today's edition of my local paper:

Napoleon's sword goes on auction block
FONTAINEBLEAU, France (AP)--After more than 200 years in the family, the gold-encrusted sword Napoleon carried into battle in Italy will be auctioned off Sunday, across the street from one of his imperial castles.
The intricately decorated blade is 32 inches long and curves gently--an inspiration he drew from his Egyptian campaign, said auctioneer Jean-Pierre Osenat. It has an estimated value of at least $1.6 million.

Instead of the estimate,it fetched 4.8 million euro's,so that's way over 6 mll.$.The Emperor used the sword at the battle of Marengo where he defeated the Austrians in june 1800.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 11, 2007, 04:19:56 AM
I think, Charles Napoleon  has found his Waterloo. He has lost for these elections in Legislative assembly. ;D
I read the party of Nicola Sarkozy is in the lead absolutely in all districts  :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on June 11, 2007, 04:44:49 AM
I think, Charles Napoleon  has found his Waterloo. He has lost for these elections in Legislative assembly. ;D
I read the party of Nicola Sarkozy is in the lead absolutely in all districts  :D

Not quite the Waterloo you hope for Dmitri,he was one of a thousand in the same district hoping for a vote as you can gather from the link I posted.He'll be running next time around.Pas de problem. :)

Nicolas Sarkozy's right wing party won 39.5% of the votes,enough to support his overhaul of France,which is a good thing.But then,appearing in a state in this clip isn't sitting well.Sarko drunk as a skunk after a meeting with Vladimir last week during the G8 summit,Germany,while always proclaiming he doesn't drink alcoholic beverages,not even wine.The clip wasn't/isn't aired on french national tv,for obvious reasons... :P:


http://www.ad.nl/buitenland/article1427575.ece
 :P ::)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2007, 07:41:37 AM
This is funny, he was drinking? A pity that he did not drink together with Charles ;D ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2007, 07:42:44 AM
I think, Charles Napoleon  has found his Waterloo. He has lost for these elections in Legislative assembly. ;D
I read the party of Nicola Sarkozy is in the lead absolutely in all districts  :D


So he personally did not come into the parliament? Source?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 11, 2007, 07:46:56 AM
Napoleon runs for parliament seat
7 Jun 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6727683.stm
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Richelieu00 on June 11, 2007, 10:34:18 AM
Hi All,

Sorry to go back to earlier discussions. But I was wondering whether anyone knows much about the life of Marie Bonaparte? Britt, I believe that you spoke to her grandson? He sounds fascinating. Did he have anything to say about his grandmother?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2007, 02:55:20 PM
Napoleon runs for parliament seat
7 Jun 2007
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6727683.stm

The article is from 7 th of June, and now we have the 11th, it is really already sure that Charles "lost" and did not come into the parliament, as Dmitry said, or did I understand anything wrong?? Thanks for clarifying this up.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 11, 2007, 03:12:11 PM
Hi All,

Sorry to go back to earlier discussions. But I was wondering whether anyone knows much about the life of Marie Bonaparte? Britt, I believe that you spoke to her grandson? He sounds fascinating. Did he have anything to say about his grandmother?


Hello Richelieu,

Thanks a lot for your interest! We have an own thread for Marie Bonaparte in the section of the greek royals as she was married to Prince Georg of Greece. Maybe you take a look there. Yes, I am very interested in her for some years now. It started when I listed to a presentation on her and her ancestry in the near of my hometown, where her maternal grandparents founded the casino. There is something very fascinating about her life, especially that she changed herself so much with over fourty and became a pioneer of Freud´s psychoanalysis, helping so many people (and also Freuds family) with her money to be saved from the Nazis (she kept save also many of their works)....There is much more to tell, she´s simply a fascinating woman. If you are interested and haven´t read it yet, you really should read the only very famous biography of her by Célia Bertin. There you get the best info on her problems in the early childhood, her fears, her life at the court later and then the "brake" from the chains of the social standard to dedicate herself to the psychoanalysis.
Yes, I have once phoned to her grandson, the Prince della Torre e Tasso, and he was very friendly, he is the owner of the castello di Duino (llok at the website!) , and was very friendly, but he is very busy and not always there. However he was so kind to call me three times to get me at the phone!! He told me some memories of her grandmother, about her "fresh" style of writing (how he called it), and that he remembers to have visited museums with her and spent time with her as a child, I think he liked her as grandmother, but in fact she died 1962, when he was ten years old, so he did not have tooo much time with her. I also thought about talking or contacting Carlo´s halfsister Tatiana Radzwill, daughter of Eugenie of Greece, daughter of Marie, (Tatiana is from E.´s first marriage with Dominik Radziwill) because I think that she will have more memories, as she was already born in 1939, much earlier than her halfbrother, and spent more time with Princess Marie as young girl, there are also much more pictures of her with Tatiana than with Carlo (I never saw any there to be honest) I am working at an article about her, did not have the time to do it before, but want to do it now ;)
If you have questions or want to start a discussion on certain points concerning Marie, please go to the thread on Marie (Greek royal section), as this here is mostly for the line of the Bonaparte heirs (Princes Napoléon, especially Charles & family)

I hope to meet you over there... :)

Greetings,
B. 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 12, 2007, 05:18:16 PM
WATERLOO!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote
Charles Napoleon didn't qualify in his area for the second round of general elections who took place yesterday. He was candidate and got ten per cent of the ballots.

From TheRoyalForums
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Richelieu00 on June 13, 2007, 02:54:47 AM
Hi All,

Thanks Britt for the info. I have explored the Greek posts, very interesting discussion on Marie over there.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on June 13, 2007, 03:06:38 AM
WATERLOO!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote
Charles Napoleon didn't qualify in his area for the second round of general elections who took place yesterday. He was candidate and got ten per cent of the ballots.

From TheRoyalForums

He finished #4 in his constituency of Fontainebleau,with 2 right wing and one left wing candidate(s) ahead of him.Btw Dmitri,it was the first election round and less then 60% of the population showed up,a supposed voting fatigue.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 13, 2007, 06:28:12 AM
Sorry, but has anybody the the full source and text and can post a link about those results of the election.

And Dmitry, I don't think that he will cry about you calling it "Waterloo". He has enough other tasks and will not give up so fast. To make a comparison to Waterloo does not make sense in my view, because we had completely different historical situation there than we have it now.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 14, 2007, 11:45:34 AM
Prince Napoleon picture from 1969:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0442.jpg)

With the following text on the back:

LE PRINCE NAPOLEON TITEUR D'ELITE A LA PETANQUE

Le PRINCE NAPOLEON venu à Bastia assistir au spectacle "Visages de l'Empire", dans le cadre des fêtes du bicentenaire a tenu, en dehors de des obligations protocolaires, à participer dans la petitestation balnéaire de Miono à un match amical de boules en compagnie de joueurs de l' équipe des sablettes dirigée par le célèbre CLAUDE CASANOVA le roi de la pétanque de Bastia.

Ici, le PRINCE NAPOLEON, lancant sa boule, entouré de joueurs dont CLAUDE CASANOVA (à droite torse nu)

Date: 08.08.1969.

(Sorry, original version is much better, but who is interested can have the better version from me!)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 15, 2007, 05:19:50 AM
Quote
Le prince Charles Napoléon est arrivé quatrième au soir du 1er tour avec 8,76% des suffrages exprimés, derrière le député sortant Didier Julia, UMP (35,04%), le maire de Fontainebleau Divers Droites, Frédéric Valletoux (21,22%) et la candidate socialiste, Nelly Renaud-Touchard (18,23%).

From http://napoleontrois.free.fr
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 15, 2007, 10:15:18 AM
Thanks! The video is making me crazy 8) Such a wonderful charismatic man :D :D I do wish him better result for next time. All my good wishes to that wonderful person, which our dearest God has created. ;D ;) :)

I hope he will also receive your personal best wishes for his next turn, Dmitry! ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 17, 2007, 11:47:10 PM
Dear friends!
I am a secret ill-wisher of Charles Napoleon.
I do not want him to have a political career.
I do not want him to become a mayor of Feauntainbleau in 2008.
I do not want him to become a head of some French department.
I do not want him to become a French president.
I do not want a third bonapartist empire.
I think he has lost these elections to the French national assembly because he has such an unusual surname.
I think that French voters do not like his surname. Still there are very much unpleasant during two napoleonic empires. I think that everyone knows what happened during the bonapartist reign. So I will not repeat it here. So I do not think that the political career of Charles Napoleon has good shances for the succesful continuation. He has lost the electors of mayor of the Corsican city Ajaccio, now he also hasn't won a seat in the French Parliament. I do not think that he will be more succesful than at that time. I think Charles napoleon must moderate his political ambitions.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 18, 2007, 02:02:37 AM
Charles Napoleon is no "Bonapartist" We had enough explicite, clalifying discussions about that. All those reactions are those of a hateful , half- knowing young man from Russia, who cannot or rather does not want to see the difference between the emperor Napoleon and his very very very distant relative of the 21 th century, who does only carry his surname, and makes his own way- and has the right to do that. Your personal opinion does not interest anyone.

ps. The city is called Fontainebleau! I even know this without speaking french!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 23, 2007, 11:32:39 AM
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2415/sipa00545230000023on4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
HRH Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and her daughter HIH Princess Caroline Napoleon pose during an fundraising Gala Dinner, organized on the initiative of TRH Crown Prince Alexander and Crown Princess Katherine of Serbia to benefit Lifeline Humanitarian Organisation whose patron is HRH Crown Princess Katherine. The gala was held at the residence of the Serbian Ambassador in Paris. (5-6-2007)

(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4369/sipa00541263000035ox4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
And a less formal photograph of the Napoleons...Charles helping Sophie with her homework

Source: BrunoPress
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 23, 2007, 11:40:24 AM
Seth, Thanks very much for these recent photographs.  ;) ;) ;) They are both wonderful. I know Brunopress, but I think the registering costs something, or am I not right?
The pics are really nice, especially the one with Sophie is nice, I never saw such an informal photo of father and youngest daughter. It's as if they just lived like any other person. In comparison to the rooms at Pranguins.... ;)
Princess Caroline and her mother still seem to have a good relationship,too.  :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 23, 2007, 08:41:18 PM
You're welcome. I was very surprised to find the photo of Charles and Sophie...pictures of her are so rare. Princess Caroline has turned into a very pretty young lady.

You may be right about BrunoPress. I don't know as I'm not registered with them.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on June 23, 2007, 09:41:19 PM
A recent interview/video of Charles Napoleon
http://www.kewego.fr/video/iLyROoaftQGy.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on June 24, 2007, 04:35:49 AM
Wonderful link. I have never found such a long video of him! But I will have to watch it, when more time, and then give a feedback, even when my understanding will be  :-X :P :( :(
I like his voice! Has something warm!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on June 24, 2007, 03:56:40 PM
Is it really size of these last two pictures? These pictures seem to be small and dull.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 02, 2007, 03:42:49 PM
Here is a link to a catalogue which I think is about Laure Napoleon's artistic work:
http://www.galerievonbartha.com/catalogues_07.htm
-------------
Possibly the website of Charlotte Dualé, granddaughter of Louis Napoléon:
http://www.bonjourcharlotte.com/
--------------
Link to a picture of the Prince Napoléon:
http://a-p-n.skyrock.com/photo.html?id_article=651903882
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 02, 2007, 04:17:39 PM
Two pictures of the Napoleon family from 2005 or 2006
http://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp1352ci0.jpg
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imgp1365ax8.jpg
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 03, 2007, 06:36:56 AM
Hello Seth,

Very interesting researching work! I did not know the picture of the young Prince that big. I only knew a similar pic in a smaller version. His face really turns out a lot after his father's, especially around the nose, mouth etc, only the very blue eyes are from the mother, which is evident. Wonderful young man, I really don't know how much is written about him in royal magazines, but I suppose it's not a lot.
The site about Laure cannot show up (or is it only my PC?), and about Charlotte, I don`t know, if it is her, or only a person with the same name. the photos on her page, if they're her, show her very blonde, so I don't know it for sure.... I try to find out more... ;)
Again thanks for the links. It's always interesting to find more about that fascinating family. ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 03, 2007, 11:54:12 AM
Hmm...that's strange, the link no longer works for me either if I directly click on it. However, if one uses google one can access the site:
http://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&q=%22Laure+Napoleon%22+Galerie+von+Bartha+&meta=

Here is another site that seems to be about an exhibition of Laure's work:
http://82.234.168.129/archives/napoleon.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 03, 2007, 03:12:46 PM
Good link. I did not know anything about any at works of Laure, it was completely new to me!! I will have a closer look at the sites tomorrow. Now it's a bit late. Unfortunately at the moment I have internet connection problems, because of a changement of the provider...more in private...

Thanks ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 03, 2007, 11:39:07 PM
The American Bonapartes

(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3357/50456709hy5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Mrs. Jerome Napoleon Bonaparte (nee Blanche Pierce) in 1941

(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8100/3204711ou1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Mr. and Mrs. Jerome Napoleon Bonaparte, 1934

Source: Gettyimages
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 04, 2007, 06:42:20 AM
Wonderful !!!! :D

I never saw these pictures, even when I was searching a lot at getty images..strange.... ::)

I have indeed pictures of all American Bonapartes, they were once sent to my by the Maryland Historical Society, but I could order them only as copies. And the quality is not always the best. But I only have a picture of Jerome Napoleon Charles, the last of the Bonaparte Pattersons (on your second picture), when he was a child. One when he was a baby and one when he was a bit older, he is wearing a cooking dress there (a bit funny). I would like to send them here, but at the moment I do only have internet at my little Notebook, whereas the pictures are in my other PC.  It's a pity that the line of the Bonaparte Pattersons died out in 1945 with the death of Jerome Napoleon Charles, who did not have any children. There is an interesting book by Mario Marquet "The American Bonapartes", I saw it once or twice at the German National Library, but until now I did not order it at any bookshop, because the most bookshops don't have it anymore. But I am still interested in getting it once and reading it. Do you maybe know it or have read it? It's a book which tells the story of the American Branch of the Bonapartes with some sense of humour and not so strongly scientifically...so were the critics on the back.
Thanks again for sending the photos. On the first one, so I suppose, there is  Blanche with another man, but not with her husband, he is some kind of different, like on the second one: Other features and thinner, similar like on the childphoto, which I have.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 04, 2007, 06:59:36 PM
The book you mention sounds like it would be very interesting. I think you had posted the title once before, but I never could find a English version of it. In fact, I just searched www.worldcat.org and it's funny but there is no book on the American Bonapartes in English. Apparently the book that you mention, Die amerikanischen Bonapartes, 1803-1945, is the only book dedicated solely to the subject, no? Unless there is one in French...

As to the photos, in the first one Mrs. Bonaparte appears talking with the columnist Cholly Knickerbocker.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 05, 2007, 12:45:31 PM
It's really very strange that the book does only exist in German, but not in English. The title would always let me think the other way around...how is it possible? I think I'll buy it as soon as I can, and then tell about the content here. But maybe it could also be possible to read it in German for you, I don't know;)
I've now found the photos at getty imagines. It's strange, because I could swear that I did not find them there before,when I was looking,  but now they are there. But pictures of the last Bonaparte Patterson are really rare, I never found any apart from the picture that you posted and the two that I once has ordered at the Historical Society of Maryland.. ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 06, 2007, 05:26:46 PM
There is an interesting book by Mario Marquet "The American Bonapartes", I saw it once or twice at the German National Library, but until now I did not order it at any bookshop, because the most bookshops don't have it anymore. But I am still interested in getting it once and reading it.

I found a copy of the book for 13 euro. Here's the link: http://cgi.choosebooks.com/SESSz156689627711183760668/cgi-bin/n_showitem.cgi?item=1440020291&mono=&lang=en&lo=gr2&uc=us&shp=0&dcurr=USD

And here is another picture of Mr. & Mrs. Jerome Napoleon Bonaparte (mister is on the left) from Corbis:
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8400/u127115pabg4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
From the pictures they don't seem to be very interested in one another...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 08, 2007, 04:12:01 AM
I have just gotten the chance to return here again and found the wonderful photo... :D
Oh dear, I must have been more than blind in the past that I did not see those pictures, even when surfing quite a lot through sites like getty and corbis... :o

If I see it correctly Mr. Bonaparte does not sit beside his wife, but on the other side of the table, the man next to Mrs. Bonaparte Patterson must be another, or am I not right? I think so.
Yes, they look very distanced here, it`s strange, but maybe it´s in their personality or only in the photo like that. But considering the fact that they didn't have any kids, that impression what we have, could fit ;D ;D

Thanks for mentioning the book. The price is not bad, but the shipping costs are pretty high... :-[
I'll see.

By for no ;)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 16, 2007, 02:58:28 AM
Surely, I meant by for now, I hope it was not gotten wrongly.

And yes, the website of Charlotte is really the one of Charles Napoléon´s niece. You`re right ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 16, 2007, 03:37:25 PM
You are right Mr. Bonaparte isn't sitting next to his wife. The lack of children could be explained by the fact that Mrs. Bonaparte was 42 at the time of the marriage (and six years older than husband). But indeed they don't seem like they were a "happily married couple", only my observation though.

Also, the reason the shipping for that book is so high is because it is for shipping to the US ;). Sorry I didn't fix that in the first place. Here is how much it is with shipping to Germany: http://cgi.choosebooks.com/SESSz156689627711183760668/cgi-bin/n_showitem.cgi?item=1440020291&mono=&lang=en&lo=gr2&uc=de&shp=0&dcurr=EUR.

Indeed very glad to here the last bit of information ;D.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 17, 2007, 01:09:47 PM
Here is a passage from The Royal Marriage Market of Europe by Pss Catherine Radziwill, 1916: 

"The late King Leopold was one of the most selfish men alive; he was fond of France and used to spend the greater part of his time there, making rare appearances in Brussels...So strongly was he attached to France as an abode that he became alarmed lest this might be made difficult or unpleasant for him were his daughter to wed the Pretender to the throne of the Bonapartes. Consequently, he forbade Princess Clementine to think of Prince Victor Napoleon, and did all that lay within his power, though without success, to oblige the latter to give up his Brussels residence and, indeed, to leave Belgium. When his daughter implored him to yield to her wishes, and to remember that she had absolutely no one to love or to take care of her, he brutally reminded her that she did not require anything of the kind, and that if she was not content with her present position she could go where she liked. The fact was that the craftly old was glad to find a pretext to quarrel with his children so as to have reason for cutting them out of his will. For this reason he had opposed every marriage offer which they had, and he cursed the Princess Stephanie when she declared that she was going to be united to Count Lonyay. He would have done the same in regard to the Princess Clementine had the latter not been wise in her generation and expressed her willingness to conform to the King's wishes-conduct which obliged him to treat her with some consideration, a concession which he denied to all the other members of his family, whom he bullied and worried in turns.
     The Princess Clementine was somewhat of a diplomat. She knew that her father's health was not of the best, and she armed herself with patience, and made up her mind to wait until her father was dead and she became free to do whatever she liked. The heavens proved merciful, because the King succumbed a few months later to the disease of which he had long been suffering, and though quarrels without number followed concerning his inheritance, his daughters found themselves at liberty to shape their lives according to their own wishes.
     The Princess Clementine at last married Prince Victor Napoleon Bonaparte at the castle of Moncalieri, near Turin, the residence of his mother, the saintly Princess Clotilde of Savoy, about ten months after the death of Leopold II.
     The successor of the latter had given a cordial assent to a union upon which he knew the happiness of his cousin depended. The Princess returned to Brussels, where she settled with her husband in the lovely house which the latter had built for himself in the Avenue Louise. Two children, a daughter and a son, the heir to all the glories and all the misfortunes of the Napoleonic dynasty, were born to them, and husband and wife remained on the best of terms with King Albert and his consort. They were quite content with the life they had mapped out for themselves, until the war drove them out of their home and obliged them to seek a refuge in England, whose hospitable shores received them with a cordiality one meets nowhere outside of Great Britian.
     In England they found themselves affectionately welcomed by the aged Empress Eugenie, who was very fond of the Princess Clementine...With that wonderful vitality which makes her such an extraordinarily attractive woman, even in her old age, she had interested herself from its earliest beginnings in the romance of her nephew with the youngest daughter of King Leopold, and she had done her best to further its cause, until at last it had culminated in happiness. Eugenie was always somewhat of a matchmaker; she kept an attentive eye on the marriages of all the members of the Royal families of Europe, and was always glad  when fate allowed her to further an alliance...She always had a warm regard for the late Queen of the Belgians, Marie Henriette, and an equal affection was lavished on the latter's child, who, on her side, always gave the widowed Empress a loyal devotion. Princess Clementine never forgot that Eugenie was the widow of the head of the race to which her husband belonged, and that she represented a world of great things vanished into eternity, after having seemed to be eternal to so many people. Few suspected that the second Empire was destined to crumble as completely as the first."
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 24, 2007, 04:05:56 AM
Thank you for posting this interesting text on the fate of Princess Clementine. It must really have been hard for her to wait all the time until her father was dead to marry Prince Victor. As a "normal" person I cannot understand, how a father can react and behave like king Leopold II of Belgium did. I understand that dynastic and political matters are important when marriages are to make, but that he never asked, if his children were happy with that and was thinking so extremely patriarchalic and "in old ways" (it really seems like that) without any little understanding, is something tragic in my opinion. As far as I know his daughter Stephanie wasn`t very happy with crownprince Rudolf as well. I wonder, what queen Marie Henriette said about that. Wasn't she at last a bit interested that her daughters were happy? It must really be hard to grow up in such a family, where dynastic questions go over all. But I think Clementine must have had strong personally (in your text it is said that she was very diplomatic) that she did not do what her father said, but waited and fighted for her love. But she was already lucky in that sense, because her father was sick and died at a time, where she was still able to have children by Prince Victor. Maybe she would have had more children than Louis and Clothilde, if she had married earlier, but at last she became a mother, and that is what counts (and I think also counted for her then). Interesting is also her relationship to Eugenie, I did not know much about that, but the fact that Clementine was so loyal to the Bonaparte family and also estimated the widow of Napoleon III that much (so I have understood it, please correct it, if it is wrong) even when her father seemed to have been an ememy of the Bonapartes (maybe also because of his Bourbon blood?) shows that she was a really fascinating woman with a strong character!
I have just bought an interesting card of Prince Victor, and as soon as I have it, I will send it here...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 26, 2007, 02:24:05 AM
Prince Victor:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0448.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 26, 2007, 02:41:43 AM
I don't know, if those pictures were already sent here:

Jérome Napoléon Charles Bonaparte- Patterson as a child (later married to Blanche Pierce)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0125.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0124.jpg)


His sister Eugenie, later married to a count of Moltke Huitfeldt:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0126.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 26, 2007, 02:46:05 AM
Sorry for being small.... :-[


I would like to send some more, but I have seen now, that generally they're not allowed to be published without the permission of the Maryland Historical Society, where they come from. :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 27, 2007, 06:46:14 AM
I have found an interesting video- interview of Charles (I don't know, if it was already seen), but I found it interesting.

I really like that charme of Charles, and his voice, it has something warm- almost female- like :D

He does also look very nice there!

The link is: 

dev.stantv.fr/movies/charles-napoleon.jpg


But attention: The link might not work like that, go rather to google and fill this link in, but blick on google images, then it will appear, it's 12 minutes long, and I enjoyed it.  ;)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 02, 2007, 03:10:33 AM
CHARLES, last count Léon, great-grandson of Napoleon Bonaparte and Eléonore Denuelle de la Plaigne                                               
                                                (1911-1994)  



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0450.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0451.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0454.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0452.jpg)



Waterloo, 1977:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/S0455.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2007, 08:48:32 AM
I think that King Leopold II of Belgium was a bitter man due to his very unhappy marriage to Marie Henriette and the death of their only son. An excerpt from Defiant Dynasty~Coburgs of Belgium:
Quote
Fighting down their mutual distaste for the sake of the dynasty, King Leopold and Queen Marie Henriette resumed, for no longer than was strictly necessary, their intimate marital relations. The result of this loveless mating was yet another girl. Born in the year 1872, she was named Clementine. "The King," says Princess Louise, "was furious and thenceforth refused to have anything to do with his admirable wife to whom God had refused a son." And yet Princess Clementine, whose birth had proved such a bitter disappointment to the King, was the only one of his three daughters on whom he would one day bestow a somewhat grudging affection.
As you know he was a very greedy man...very concerned with keeping his fortune inside Belgium after his death. I think that may have had something to do with his not allowing Clementine to marry and thus have children (for instance I believe Leopold disinherited his other two daughters, at least Louise). I too didn't know that Clementine and the Empress Eugenie got along so well. You may remember in Le Livre de la Famille Imperiale there is a picture of baby Louis Napoleon in his pram in front of the Empress's house at Farnborough. Also, Eugenie was godmother to Victor and Clementine's daughter Marie Clotilde. You are probably right when you say that Leopold disliked the Bonapartes due to his mother being an Orleans, also he didn't want to anger the French republican government by his daughter marrying the Napoleonic heir. Here is Clementine as described in Defiant Dynasty:
Quote
Clementine, his youngest daughter, was the only one with whom he was on speaking terms. Of the three princesses, Clementine was the best looking. Like her sisters, she was tall and somewhat statuesque but she had been spared both Louise's feverishness of manner and Stephanie's awkwardness of movement. Her profile was fashionably aquiline and she dressed with great panache. But her looks, at this stage of her life, belied her personality. She was a modest, dutiful, long-suffering young woman, very much the stay-at-home daughter of elderly parents. It needed all her tact, however, to cope not only with her father's scathing tongue and her mother's complaints, but with the insolence of the King's mistress. More and more, as the years went by, did Clementine take over the Queen's duties, until the sight of the cantankerous old King, leaning on the arm of his spinster daughter, became a familiar sight throughout Belgium. She began to be known as "the little Queen." It was not so much that the King loved her as that he needed her, and being a selfish man, he was determined to hang onto her for dear life.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 11, 2007, 08:53:34 AM
Also, thank you very much for these pictures of Victor Napoleon, the American Bonapartes, and the last Count Leon :). I'd never seen a picture of Louise Eugenie until now.

The video of Charles Napoleon is very interesting as well...a shame we don't know what he's saying. Do you think that he will run for political office again?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 11, 2007, 03:45:25 PM
Hi,

It's a pleasure to me that you liked the Bonaparte pictures. I hope it was allright to publish them here, because especially the ones from the Maryland Hist. Society originally were not for publishing. The names of the people were handwritten beside the pictures, it might have been made by a secretary or something. I didn't write the names, so hope they are right! (The writing is funny, somewhere very school- like...By the way I can't write that nicely anymore :P)
The APN (Amis du Patrimoine Napoleonien) was very helpful with sending the pictures and also articles about the last count Léon. He must have been a man with a very deep connection to his ansistor. Daniel Poisson, the president of the organisation, who knew him personally wrote a letter to me among all the material (but the handwriting and the language is difficult to me) But it  really seems that was concerned a lot with Napoleon. One picture shows him in a napoleonic museum wearing the hat of the emperor- indeed a bit funny! If you are interested I can send more in private.
I suppose that you have understand what Charles was saying. Well, I didn't, but I liked it, how he talked. It's difficult to say, if he might run again for a political position, I think he also has also a lot of other tasks. But maybe he will try it again, if he has strong ambitions, and I think he has them (see all the books he wrote!). Time will show it :D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on August 26, 2007, 04:46:21 PM
Here are two videos of Charles Napoleon from DailyMotion. I think one of them was already posted but can't remember...
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/charles+napoleon/video/x221tk_charles-napoleon_politics
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/charles+napoleon/video/x26npz_legislatives-2007-2eme-circonscript_dating
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 27, 2007, 03:45:11 AM
They are indeed wonderful videos, which show a lot of Charles Napoléon's uncomplicated behaviour, which is charming, but not at all like a typical royal. Thank you a lot for posting them again. I'll look for more like that, and if you find anything more of that kind, please post it!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 21, 2007, 09:48:10 PM
Here is a short video clip from 1969 where the Prince and Princess Napoleon can be seen a little...the occasion is a visit by President Pompidou to Ajaccio, Corsica.
http://www.ina.fr/archivespourtous/index.php?vue=notice&from=fulltext&full=prince+napoleon&num_notice=3&total_notices=5
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 23, 2007, 12:09:05 PM
Thank you so much! What a wonderful video and so old. It was fantastic to see. I never saw any video clip of Louis Napoléon before, only his son. It was also interesting to see the corsican landscapes and so on- especially at that time. Wonderful island and wonderful video clip. That was a pleasure to me! :) :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 25, 2007, 04:40:32 PM
Is the illegitimate daughter of Charles Napoleon princess and H. I. H.?  Is it correct or not?
Do anybody known about it?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 27, 2007, 07:47:00 PM
Have Caroline and Jean-christophe Bonaparte their friends or not?
Does anybody know it?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 28, 2007, 03:40:28 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/le_prince_napoleon.jpg)

Jean Christophe- Thanks to @Benjamin!!!


Nice photocard of Prince Louis Napoléon from 1936, I'm trying to purchase it at the moment, and when I have it, I'll send it in a huger format!

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/a7bd_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 28, 2007, 04:19:19 AM
Jean-Christophe is not any prince of royal blood!
He is the "heir" of the revolutionary usurper Nappy Boni!
I do not like him!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 28, 2007, 06:48:07 PM
Dear Britta!

I always think, that the divorce of his parents after his birth cannot be a casual concurrence.

I think, that Bourbon princess was too the blue-blood and aristocratic princess to be mother of the napoleonic heir.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 29, 2007, 03:41:28 AM
Your own phantasy and creation, do you have any proof, any inside view in the lives of those two people? I think we all don't have it, and therefore cannot make any judgements concerning the divorce of Charles and Beatrice. All statements of that kind are pure speculation, not based on any facts.

BW: Take a look at Charles' ancestry, he has Bourbon, Orléans, Sachsen- Corburg- Gotha, Habsburg and many more royal families in his blood!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Sprocket on September 29, 2007, 11:39:36 AM
Doesn't "royal" all merely come down to theory? No one is "royal" technically since there really is no such thing as royal blood. Afterall, it's not as if the Bourbon and Orleans families were ever set aside as some sort of special people by God when mankind first began as "royal". Royalty is nothing more than different families holding power either by achieving it through political or militaristic ways. To the victor go the spoils. So it goes with the Bonapartes. Napoleon through his intelligence and ambition and talent was able to take a country that the "royals" had almost ruined, or their population had felt they ruined, and become it's leader. The only thing going theoretically against the Bonapartes is that they haven't been royal as long as say someone like the Bourbons or Orleans. But that's it. Otherwise people are just people. Period.

If you can out wit your enemies in a time like that, you could and did have the right to proclaim yourself king.

I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about hating the Bonapartes over loving the Orleans or Bourbons. None of the thrones exist today and I would place bets on the fact that none of them ever will. As a whole, monarchy is seen as an archaic form of government, if France would go back to a monarchy, one of their choosing no matter which family they wanted on the throne, I don't think it would be seen as progression but more as a step back in the wrong direction.

In the end, no matter if you think Napoleon was a Godsend for France or the worst thing ever, his legitimatacy was no less legitimate than the previous monarchs. They all started out at some point as seizing power. They all at first were  nobodies. Those born after them, just are the lucky (or unlucky) ones to be their heirs and quite a few of them were not fit to be rulers at all, but their placement in the family made them such. All the kings were crowned by the Pope, to lend the belief that God ordained them. So was Napoleon. His brother Lucien was given a title, Prince of Caninno by the Pope, from the Pope's own choosing, surely if that's not close to God than what is?

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on September 30, 2007, 02:33:41 AM
Dear Britta!
have you received my photos from me?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 30, 2007, 07:38:55 AM
Doesn't "royal" all merely come down to theory? No one is "royal" technically since there really is no such thing as royal blood. Afterall, it's not as if the Bourbon and Orleans families were ever set aside as some sort of special people by God when mankind first began as "royal". Royalty is nothing more than different families holding power either by achieving it through political or militaristic ways. To the victor go the spoils. So it goes with the Bonapartes. Napoleon through his intelligence and ambition and talent was able to take a country that the "royals" had almost ruined, or their population had felt they ruined, and become it's leader. The only thing going theoretically against the Bonapartes is that they haven't been royal as long as say someone like the Bourbons or Orleans. But that's it. Otherwise people are just people. Period.

If you can out wit your enemies in a time like that, you could and did have the right to proclaim yourself king.

I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about hating the Bonapartes over loving the Orleans or Bourbons. None of the thrones exist today and I would place bets on the fact that none of them ever will. As a whole, monarchy is seen as an archaic form of government, if France would go back to a monarchy, one of their choosing no matter which family they wanted on the throne, I don't think it would be seen as progression but more as a step back in the wrong direction.

In the end, no matter if you think Napoleon was a Godsend for France or the worst thing ever, his legitimatacy was no less legitimate than the previous monarchs. They all started out at some point as seizing power. They all at first were  nobodies. Those born after them, just are the lucky (or unlucky) ones to be their heirs and quite a few of them were not fit to be rulers at all, but their placement in the family made them such. All the kings were crowned by the Pope, to lend the belief that God ordained them. So was Napoleon. His brother Lucien was given a title, Prince of Caninno by the Pope, from the Pope's own choosing, surely if that's not close to God than what is?



Thank you for those words. That's exactly what I think as well. I tried to make a serious discussion about that point several times, but here are certain people, which seem to be unable for an objective historical view over the whole subject Bonaparte. It's frustrating. 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 30, 2007, 12:05:48 PM
Some rather recent pics of count Baudouin de Witt, first cousin of Charles Napoleón, and owner of the "Pommerie"

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FAP0105003.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FAP0105001.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FAP0105002.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FAP0105023.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/FAP0105034.jpg)



Source: www.fedephoto.com

It must be a wonderful experience to see that! He seems to own a lot of precious napoleonic property. A pity that I've never been there until now.  :'(

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on October 01, 2007, 03:24:22 AM
Dear Britta!

Do you boycot my letters?

Do you not want to answer me?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 01, 2007, 03:33:26 AM
Could you please exclude personal questions here, this thread is called "House Bonaparte news" and not "private correspondences", so not for private letters. I'm not the moderator, but please let us clarify such things in private.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 02, 2007, 09:01:30 PM
Britta,
Thanks very much for posting those pictures of Baudoin de Witt and of his amazing home!

---------------------------------
Here were some activities of the Bonapartes in 2007:

5 May 2007—Princess Napoléon was present at an event in Paris to commemorate Emperor Napoléon I and the soldiers of the Grande Armée.
(http://ameliefr.club.fr/calendrier2007.html#ancre1590792)

4 Jun 2007—Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies and her daughter Princess Caroline Napoléon were present at the charity gala held in Paris by Crown Princess Katherine of Serbia.
(http://www.gotha.fr/3.aspx?page=13&sr=15)

23 Sep 2007—Princess Napoléon attended Mass at the Invalides. Also present: Jean d’Orléans duc de Vendôme as well as Luis Alfonso and Margarita de Borbon.
(http://www.lorraine-royaliste.fr/2007/10/04/des-nouvelles-de-nos-princes/)

28-29 Sep 2007—Baudoin de Witt presided over a Napoleonic reenactment at Cendrieux.
(http://ameliefr.club.fr/pommerie2007.html)

Oct 2007-Princess Napoléon was the guest of honor at the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary Celebrations of the French Heritage Society. Lots of nobility and royalty were there as well.
(http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/node/3110)

Nov 2007—Princess Napoléon will be at a Ceremony of Remembrance at the Monument aux Morts in her capacity as honorary president of the Societe Nationale d’Entraide de la Medaille Militaire.
(http://medmilivelizy.free.fr/activites.html)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 02, 2007, 09:21:45 PM
S.A.I. la Princesse Napoléon at the 25th Anniversary of the French Heritage Society, Château de Vaux-le-Vicomte (13 Oct 2007)

1) With Jessica London, Executive Director of the French Heritage Society
2) With Comte Patrice de Vogüé, owner of Château de Vaux-le-Vicomte
3) With Irene Boyd McAlpin Roosevelt Aitken (second and last wife of the late John Aspinwall Roosevelt, son of US President Franklin Delano Roosevelt)

(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2545/13oct2007dd8.th.jpg)(http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/9127/laprincesseetpatricedevay3.th.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=13oct2007dd8.jpg)(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8755/laprincesseetireneaitkeqy1.th.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/my.php?image=laprincesseetireneaitkeqy1.jpg)

Source: New York Social Diary
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 02, 2007, 09:25:42 PM
Apparently the Princess was interviewed in Point de Vue (issue number 3032; date: 30 Aug 2006)
http://journaux-anciens.chapitre.com/POINT-DE-VUE/2006.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 03, 2007, 05:43:06 AM
Thank you for collecting and posting all the recent news on special occasions, where the Princess Napoleon and other family members took part in. Even when this is not thr most importrant, I'm always more than amazed how good the old Princess Napoléon still looks like. How does she do that? :)
Yes, maybe also the recent interview in the PdV- magazine could be interesting. I hope there will be ways to purchase it...
It seems to me that the Princess Napoléon is one of the families' members, who takes mostly part in important activites. About her son I don't read anything new at the moment on the net or somewhere else. I wonder, what he is doing now. I have to check out his website, I'm sure he has new political ambitions in regional politics.
Yes, princess Napoleón seems really to be mostly involved in those activities.
By the time having written to different Bonaparte members I see that the general interest (especially that of other Bonaparte descendants) is much less and there isn't a deep family connection from the italian descendants to the french heritage family as well. A pity, I think. Mostly are completely involved in other matters and being Bonaparte member is not so important for them, even not for members of the direct line (Walewski). So Princess Napoléon really is an interesting figure, who is a lotin publicity concerning the Bonaparte heritage. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 03, 2007, 03:11:18 PM
You are most welcome :). I too admire the fact that the princess always looks her best at events like these. Perhaps she has instilled some of her devotion to the family's heritage in her Bonaparte grandchildren.
I would think that Charles Napoleon is still in business (which, unlike his political career, has been successful).
---------------
The press release w/pictures about the charity event that Princess Caroline attended with her mother can be found here: http://www.royalfamily.org/press/press-det/stampa-1657.htm
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 03, 2007, 05:20:22 PM
Thank you for the direct link. A pity that I cannot download or something that page, especially the part of July 2007`s Point de Vue would be interesting. The article on the event, which was visited by Beatrice and Caroline Napoleón shows also a picture of Marie Bonapartes granddaughter Tatiana Radzwill, married Fruchaud, and it's funny, it's the first time that I see her husband, Dr. Fruchaud! Thank you very much...!!!! She looks quite good there, even when I think she did not age too well. her stature and figure is so typical grandmother Marie in my opinion, even when the face, especially the eyes, are Glücksburg, like Georg. Interesting that I see more Marie in her than in her mother Eugenie.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 04, 2007, 10:22:03 PM
Princess Clementine of Belgium, her son, and his fianceé in Switzerland, 1949
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4474/1949nearlausannete2.jpg

Source: ANP Photo
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 07, 2007, 03:14:05 AM
Thank you a lot...! Some more from the same photo archive (I like the pictures so much... :))


Princess Napoléon at a charity (on the right side you see the princess Jerome Murat)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5059640.jpg)


Prince & Princess Louis Napoléon after the birth of their twins Charles & Catherine in 1950

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5059656.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/4889513-1.jpg)

Prince Napoléon and his newborn heirs:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5059641.jpg)


Louis Napoleón with hat ;):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5059644-1.jpg)


Charles Napoléon with ansistor in the background (nice!):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5767269.jpg)


Twin sister Catherine with husband (or only fiance at that time?)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/5059651.jpg)


Grandmother Clementine (think there's a certain resemblence especially with Catherine):

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/6541133.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 11, 2007, 08:14:54 PM
Thank you for posting all of those pictures!! Many of them were new to me.

Here is the link to a book that google.com has digitalized. It is The Bonaparte-Patterson Marriage in 1803: And the Secret Correspondence on the Subject by William Thomas Roberts Saffell. It was published in 1873 and is 254 pages (and can be read in its entirety online). One may need to have a Gmail account to do so, however.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HJUvAAAAMAAJ
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 13, 2007, 01:34:27 AM
Thank you!  I will have a closer look, when having more time what I have to install to get this reading.
There is still the book "the american Bonapartes" by Mario Marquet, which is difficult to get, and which I'm interested in. I had a look into it in our German national library, but there one can only look into the books and is not allowed to take them away. Maybe there will be a chance to get it during the next time, because there the story of the Bonaparte- Pattersons is told very nicely and also with a sense of humour. (Have you maybe read it?) However recently I purchased two books, once on Prince Napoléon (Plon-Plon), yes it was in English!, and one on the life of Joseph Napoleón Primoli "Life and times of a Bonaparte". Primoli was also a famous fotographer, the son of Charlotte of double Bonaparte origin (daughter of Charles Lucien, son of Lucien Bonaparte, and Zenaide, daughter of Joseph, king of Spain and Julie Clary). The book also contains a lot of interesting fotos (he had a contact with many interesting figures of that time and photographed them: For ex: Laetizia, Princess d' Aosta, Princess Mathilde, Eleonora Duse etc etc)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 22, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
The book by Primoli sounds very interesting! I might consider getting it sometime. And no I haven't read the book by Mario Marquet as it hasn't been translated into English... :(

Do you like the Plon-Plon book that you bought?

By the way, here is a 2003 photo of Pss Caroline and Pr Jean Christophe Napoleon with their mother Pss Beatrice. It is from http://www.ibl.se/default.asp
(http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/874/carolinejeanchristophebhj2.th.jpg) (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=carolinejeanchristophebhj2.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 22, 2007, 11:07:47 PM
Alexandra de Witt, wife of a grandson (Jean-Emmanuel de Witt) of the late Princess Marie Clotilde, was named as one of the godmothers of the daughter of Prince Pieter Christiaan and Princess Anita of Orange-Nassau.
http://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/content.jsp?objectid=20694

Alexandra was also one of the witnesses for Princess Anita at her wedding in 2005.
http://www.nettyroyal.nl/newsaug05.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 23, 2007, 02:27:03 AM
Thank you very much for the new picture and the infos. I had not seen that picture with Beatrice and her two children before, so it was wonderful to see. It seems that this photoarchive only has this photo of the Bonapartes, but it's a nice one!
Concerning the book on Prince Napoléon (Plon-Plon) I must confess that I haven't read it until now, because I still read other things at the moment. I bought it just in the moment, when I saw it on ebay and it was quite cheap for an old book. I'm also happy to have purchased it, because it's rather rare that books on Prince Napoléon can be found also in English.
You said you haven't read Mario Marquet yet, as it was not translated. Do you have a German or a french version? I once saw it in the German National library and there it was German, if I remember it correctly. What about the version that you have?
The Primoli book is very informative to me as well, also because it does not only show rare photos made my Primoli himself, but also gives alot of interesting background descriptions of that time, where they live,  in general. I think it's worth to be read, if anyone is interested in the time and the Bonaparte family in Italy.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 23, 2007, 02:33:05 AM
You are most welcome for the photo!

Actually I don't own the Marquet book, but the only version that I have seen for sale on the web is called Die amerikanischen Bonapartes. So I'm assuming that it was never translated into English.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on November 23, 2007, 12:38:04 PM
The annual Fondation Napoléon History Prizes 2007 for books on the two French empires were presented at a lunch on 19 Nov 2007 in the presence of HIH the Princess Napoléon.

See article and pictures here: http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/fonda_grandsprix.asp
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on November 27, 2007, 01:59:02 AM
That's interesting!  At the same occasion some years ago a former doctor of me and my late mum won a prize for a book, which he had written together with his daughter. It is called "Medailles of Napoléon" (=the German original: "Napoleon's Medallien), where he presents the different kinds of medailles during the development of the First Empire and analyzes the meaning and their historical backgound. The book is very big, and when I visited the doctor, who now stopped working as doctor to dedicate himself only to his historic studies, he gave me one of the books with a dedication to me. But I must confess until now I haven't read the whole book, because it's very huge and big.
He told me that he won a prize for it, which was given to him in the presence of the Prince and Princess Napoléon, whome he both described as very charming people. He considered the charming character of Charles as a part, which he inherited from his mother. That german doctor is also very knowing in napoleonic history, genealogy and the differences because of the Bourbon marriage of Charles Napoléon. He also told me about Charles: "He has more Bourbon blood than the count of Paris!" I remember that the site, which now tells about the recent prize, also mentioned the one of the doctor, whose name is Joachim Zeitz, some years ago on the same website. I think it was in 2003  or 2004.  Those history prizes by the Fondation Napoléon seem to be a yearly occasion. Thank you for mentioning!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Norbert on January 02, 2008, 01:44:27 AM
hi Britt, you mensioned that a Bonaparte had married a niece of Mussolini in 1952.Can you tell us more about the connection?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 02, 2008, 04:14:50 AM
Hello! Thank you for your interest!

Especially here in Germany, where I come from, there is only little known about that marriage and the background, which is a pity.
In 1952 Raimonda Ciano, the granddaughter (not niece!) of the "Duce" married Alessandro Giunta ("Sandro"), great-grandnephew of Napoléon Bonaparte. Raimonda was the daughter of Mussolini's famous, rebelling daughter Edda and her husband, the -also well- known- count Gian Galeazzo Ciano, also called "Mussolini's shadow" (later he was murdered by the dictator) Edda must have been an interesting personality, I have just bought a quite rare biography of her in italian.
Concerning Sandro Giunta, he was the son of Francesco Giunta and Zenaide del Gallo. From his mothers side Sandro was a Bonaparte descendant:
Lucien Bonaparte, Prince of Canino---Charles Lucien-----Julie Bonaparte----Luciano del Gallo----Zenaide del Gallo-----Alessandro Giunta.
Francesco Giunta, the father, b.1887, d. 1971, was an italian politician under Mussolini, he was the national secretary of the fascist party from october, 13 th, 1923 until April, 23 th, 1924. The dictionary says that he was a layer, fighted in the first World War and then became a member of Mussolini's party, in 1920. He was also involved in the march on Rome.  In the years 1921-1943 he got some more titles and positions, as it is to read. I think that the connecton from Benito's granddaughter and Francesco's son came because of Francesco's positions under the fascist regime.
However it seems that the marriage was not too happy: Raimonda married, when she was 19 and Sandro 23. The marriage, even when I do not know the explicite date of divorce did not last too long, because in an article, which was once sent to me by another relative of Mussolini, and which is dated with the year 1964, it is said that Raimonda (also called "Dindina") was already living separated from her husband with 23 years and inhabitated together with her mother Edda a villa at Capri. There are no descendants of her marriage as well, as was confirmed to me by the niece of Sandro.  A little pity, I think. Nevertheless I found that family connection interesting. I know an article, where Mussolini praised the italian roots of the french emperor. But as we now, the Duce was an opportunist, changing the things he said, as often as his pants  ;D...  :-\


In the group of people is Francesco Giunta, father of Sandro, on the very right side (profile)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/1169034048298.jpg)


marriage of Sandro and Dindina:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0288-1-1.jpg)


Dindina and Sandro:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Sandro.jpg)


Maybe it's interesting to mention that also another descendant of Napoleon, the count Ercole Gaddi-Pepoli, who descended from Joachim Murat and Caroline Bonaparte -through their daughter Luisa-, had a position under the fasc. regime:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0019.jpg)


Thanks for your interest!!! :)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Norbert on January 02, 2008, 06:14:09 AM
many thanks for this interesting information
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 26, 2008, 03:48:33 AM
Thank you a lot for that information @Benjamin, this is very interesting to know! I did not know of all people, who exactly attended the funeral of the archduke. It  seems that they came because of the connection of the Bonapartes with the belgian royal family, even when only distantly related to the descendants of Carl Ludwig. So they really came to Vienna to attend the Vienna before the Kapuzinergruft? As I got the programme of the funeral by a family member of Archduke Carl Ludwig, I know that there were different events, also a soul-mass in Brussels. I would rather imagine that they visited the event in Brussels than in Vienna. Or both?
If you have fore detailled infos, I would be happy. Do you also know anything about pictures? And why did only Jerome and Princess Napoléon come?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on January 28, 2008, 02:21:26 PM
Thank you a lot for that information @Benjamin, this is very interesting to know! I did not know of all people, who exactly attended the funeral of the archduke. It  seems that they came because of the connection of the Bonapartes with the belgian royal family, even when only distantly related to the descendants of Carl Ludwig. So they really came to Vienna to attend the Vienna before the Kapuzinergruft? As I got the programme of the funeral by a family member of Archduke Carl Ludwig, I know that there were different events, also a soul-mass in Brussels. I would rather imagine that they visited the event in Brussels than in Vienna. Or both?
If you have fore detailled infos, I would be happy. Do you also know anything about pictures? And why did only Jerome and Princess Napoléon come?

I made a mistake: I meant, "so they really came to Vienna to visit the funeral in the Kapuzinergruft?". I taped the word "Vienna" twice, and unfortunately once at a wrong place...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 02, 2008, 12:17:17 AM
Thank you a lot for that information @Benjamin, this is very interesting to know! I did not know of all people, who exactly attended the funeral of the archduke. It  seems that they came because of the connection of the Bonapartes with the belgian royal family, even when only distantly related to the descendants of Carl Ludwig. So they really came to Vienna to attend the Vienna before the Kapuzinergruft? As I got the programme of the funeral by a family member of Archduke Carl Ludwig, I know that there were different events, also a soul-mass in Brussels. I would rather imagine that they visited the event in Brussels than in Vienna. Or both?
If you have fore detailled infos, I would be happy. Do you also know anything about pictures? And why did only Jerome and Princess Napoléon come?

You are very welcome. The information came from the Royals Portal. I am not sure which service they attended (I too would imagine the one in Brussels, though) or why only the two of them were there.

On 29 Jan 2008, the Princess Napoléon was present at the launch of a magazine dedicated to the Second French Empire, Napoléon III. For more info, see here: http://www.napoleon.org/en/fondation/new/index.asp
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 17, 2008, 12:38:52 PM
According to his updated website, Charles Napoléon is now a candidate in the municipal elections (to be held in March) of Nemours.

http://www.charlesnapoleon.com/v2/default.asp
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on February 17, 2008, 02:00:45 PM
Thank you very much for giving a link to his new created site. I must confess I didn't look there for quite a long time...but that is indeed interesting that he will be involved in political activites again and will also stand again for elections in the coming months. 
For now I can only say that he definitely knows what he wants and I wish him more luck this time. This charismatic man MUST have success, I always think... :)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Dmitry Russian on February 17, 2008, 09:06:30 PM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0063.jpg)

This is NOT the "french i-l family

This is the family of the impostors, rascals and revolutionary usurpers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 17, 2008, 09:41:01 PM
This charismatic man MUST have success, I always think... :)

Haha I agree, surely he must win an election sooner or later. Persistence always pays off, they say
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 18, 2008, 01:00:16 PM
Charles Napoléon's "Ensemble pour les Nemouriens" received almost 25% of the vote.

http://charlesnapoleon.com/v2/article.asp?rubrique=Moments%20forts
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 19, 2008, 05:41:06 AM
Thank you for that information, I did not follow this during the last time, because I was simply too busy with other things. That is amazing, and I wish him good luck also in future. I hope he will have a chance to expand his political ambitions for his country. Maybe those people, who shout and shouted too early that he does not achieve anything in politics, will once get to know what this man can do. I hope so... ::)


I also like the new picture on his webite:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Charles20NAPOLEON.jpg)

He is still best looking, even when becoming 58 years this year! What a man! His skin appears still so fine and young, and his smile and eyes are so charming...

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: lulururu on April 11, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
A little video of the prince Jean-Christophe Napoléon and his father Charles Napoléon
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=1811038816400391445&q=jean+christophe+napol%C3%A9on&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0&hl=fr (http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=1811038816400391445&q=jean+christophe+napol%C3%A9on&total=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0&hl=fr)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on April 20, 2008, 08:06:21 AM
Thanks for the link. I knew that video before and it's very interesting, it's under my favourites on youtube. I pity only that the pics are not always too clear. But it's wonderful.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on April 28, 2008, 02:32:43 PM
On 20 Apr 2008, several members of the Imperial Family traveled to Farnborough for the bicentenary of the birth of Emperor Napoléon III.
Report in English: http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/lallement_farnborough.asp
French article with more photos: http://www.napoleon.org/fr/salle_lecture/articles/files/farnborough2008avril.asp


The next day, 21 Apr, the Princess Napoléon was present at a similar event in Paris.
http://www.nicerendezvous.com/FR/PARIS-NICE-BICENTENAIRE-DE-LA-NAISSANCE-DE-NAPOLEON-III-n-3814.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on April 29, 2008, 05:08:58 AM
On 20 Apr 2008, several members of the Imperial Family traveled to Farnborough for the bicentenary of the birth of Emperor Napoléon III.
Report in English: http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/lallement_farnborough.asp
French article with more photos: http://www.napoleon.org/fr/salle_lecture/articles/files/farnborough2008avril.asp


The next day, 21 Apr, the Princess Napoléon was present at a similar event in Paris.
http://www.nicerendezvous.com/FR/PARIS-NICE-BICENTENAIRE-DE-LA-NAISSANCE-DE-NAPOLEON-III-n-3814.html

Thank you for the links Benjamin and Lulururu!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 02, 2008, 09:05:44 AM
Thank you for the wonderful links, @Benjamin, this is very interesting, I only wished to see more photos of the mentioned family members, like the mentioned Prince Murat, the siblings of Prince Napoléon, and the Duc d'Albufera, who does descend from the Bonapartes as well (line of Bathilde Bonaparte, one of the daughters of the cousins of first grade, Charles Lucien and Zenaide. She died very young, but had two children, of whome Zenaide de Cambaceres is the ancestor of the present Duc d'Albufera.)
If anyone finds more photos, please send the link. Jean Christophe looks nice again, his smile becomes very similar to his father....ohhh this young man...hahaha....even when the pic is a bit small. I will have a closer look at the articles now. 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 09, 2008, 01:49:13 PM
Hi...

I have gotten some interesting, nice, very old postcards of Prince Victor Napoléon in Exile....

Please have a look:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0136.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0137.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0138.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0142-1.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0139.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 09, 2008, 01:53:37 PM
And two more, which I like a lot. I hope they haven't been posted yet:


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0143.jpg)


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/File0144.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 16, 2008, 07:37:06 PM
Britta, thank you so much for posting all these new photos of the Napoleon family! The ones of Prince Victor in old age are especially nice (& rare, surely)!

Here is a article (in Spanish) with several pictures about a Feb 2006 visit of the Princess Napoleon to Mexico. While there, she met with José Natividad González Parás, the governor of the State of Nuevo León.
http://www2.nl.gob.mx/?P=leerarticulo&ArtOrder=ReadArt&Article=53235
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 17, 2008, 09:28:46 PM
What do you know and think about Charles Napoleon's first wife Beatrice de Bourbon of Two Sicilies?

Had Beatrice de Bourbon and Charles Napoleon their love to each other or were there any reasons of their marriage?

Which of you has any photos of their wedding or any photos of them with their daughter (and their son, may be) together?

Were Charles Napoleon and Beatrice de Bourbon a happy family with their children or not?

Do they love each other or not?

I have already seen Beatrice's website www.capetiens.com

Here write that Beatrice and her daughter Caroline are very close to each other.

Is Caroline always Beatrice's favourite baby?

Doesn't Beatrice love her son or not?

I shall be very grateful to you for your answers to my questions
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 18, 2008, 02:23:46 AM
Britta, thank you so much for posting all these new photos of the Napoleon family! The ones of Prince Victor in old age are especially nice (& rare, surely)!

Here is a article (in Spanish) with several pictures about a Feb 2006 visit of the Princess Napoleon to Mexico. While there, she met with José Natividad González Parás, the governor of the State of Nuevo León.
http://www2.nl.gob.mx/?P=leerarticulo&ArtOrder=ReadArt&Article=53235


Thank you for that interesting article in Spanish! As far as I have understood it, she was there for an inauguration of an exposition on Napoleon, very interesting, because it seems to have been in Mexico and she was very very welcome there. They considered Napoleon as a man, who made great reforms in Europa and was an very inportant person, not only concerning the military, but also in the political sense...
The pictures are really wonderful, she still looks very good for her age, and I think it's nice that she does so many great things to save the heritage of her deceased husband and her children. She's a gorgeous lady, I'm still of that opinion. It would be wonderful to meet her once...or to interview her. I would have liked to be present there as well, but....:(



By the way...I don't know, if anyone is interested, but there is a commemoration- even in Italy, in the city Campello sul Clitunno, which concerns the 100th birthday of Ranieri di Campello, great-grandson of Charles Lucien and Zenaide Bonaparte. This event is organized by his children. I'm still trying to find out what will be concretely the program, but the descendants are very busy at the moment. It will be on September, 21th from 9:30am - 4:00pm, in Campello sul Clitunno, Umbria, Italy.



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/GrennderungGrennderungRanieriCamp.jpg)

       Ranieri di Campello (della Spina), 1908-1859




Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 04:55:12 AM
I have a question.

I would have answers to these questions

What does HIH Princess Napoleon think and know about Russia and Russian?

What does HIH princess Napoleon think and know about Napoleon's war in Russia in 1812?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 18, 2008, 05:12:02 AM
I would suggest write to her and ask her ;D
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 06:02:18 AM
Do you know her email?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 06:04:57 AM

Do you know her email?

Please answer to my questions about Beatrice and her children
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 07:29:12 AM
Here you may find some photos of Caroline Bonaparte and her mother Beatrice (Please look at all the pages)
http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563916338lvcFuW
 ::)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 08:13:49 AM
1) This girl may be Caroline's cousin Dorothee Cochin
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2316635950073872753OVIXyF
2) Caroline
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2860448040073872753yxrsWb
3) Caroline and her mother. They love each other very much!
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2579336180073872753CogaHm
4) Caroline
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2575100600073872753aUEVpG
5)The best and beautiful princess in the world
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2175294260073872753GgSrZZ
6) Caroline and Jean d'Orlean, duc Vandome
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2935372350073872753IMjhJW
7) Caroline
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2045477820073872753BoeEAw


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 18, 2008, 09:04:26 AM
Firstly to the pictures. They are gorgeous.... It's amazing, how beautiful Princess Caroline has become and she comes very much after her father...I will send some of the best ones here that all people can see them. It seems that the pictures are from the wedding of Charles-Philippe of Orléans, it's rather a private photo-album of one of the men, who organize such events. Jacques Henri is also often to see on the Capetiens site.  So you see the Bonapartes are also attending a match-ceremony with the Bourbons (maybe mostly because Beatrice is a Bourbon...), but they seem to come along with each other quite well.
About your questions, I really can't say anything about it, and I think such detailled things are not openly known about the Princess Napoleón. One would have to ask her personally in an interview for such things, but that's not too easy, I think....
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 18, 2008, 09:13:10 AM
These are the most beautiful pics in my opinion.

Let's see how pretty Princess Caroline is:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/CarMutt.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/Carolinefein.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/BourbBon.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/MitHut.jpg)


Very beautiful!


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 18, 2008, 09:25:38 AM
Half-sister Sophie (b.1992):


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/SophIII.jpg)

In profile very much like her daddy....


(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/SophII.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/SophI.jpg)


...and as we see not less pretty & very similar to her sister!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Mari on July 18, 2008, 03:00:01 PM
Wonderful photographs! Thank you for the links. Interesting to see who went to the Wedding.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on July 18, 2008, 05:37:06 PM
Britta, I am very glad that you have placed these images here.
Thank you! I couldn't do it.
I was helped with www.google.com very much.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 22, 2008, 01:32:07 PM
Here is an interview with two direct descendants of Napoleon I., Raphael and Fabrice Walewski.

They are so handsome...!!! Nice!

Have a look, only the topic about business things is rather boring to me...

Please scroll down until "Touax":

www.eurobusinessmedia.com/videos.php (http://www.eurobusinessmedia.com/videos.php)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on September 09, 2008, 06:19:38 PM
Beatrice de Bourbon of Two-Sicilies Happy Birthday

16 June 2008

From: http://www.capetiens.com/

(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier84/A1.JPG)

(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier84/G4.JPG)

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: dmitryalex777 on September 09, 2008, 08:22:15 PM
(http://www.capetiens.com/images/photos/dossier84/I1.JPG)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on September 12, 2008, 12:16:46 PM
Thank you for finding and sending those recent pictures!

They are really so great. I haven't looked at the Capetiens site for a long time, so....

I'm sending some more, which are nice:

Princess Caroline:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/K7.jpg)

And also her brother partly to see:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/N6.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/H6.jpg)

This is a very nice picture, too:

It shows Charles of Bourbon -Sicilies, brother of Beatrice, with his two nieces Princess Caroline Napoleón and Dorothée Cochin, daughter of Anne.

It was the first time for me seeing photos of Ms. Cochin, cousin of Princess Caroline and her brother.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/M7.jpg)

She's also to see here with mother Anne and aunt Beatrice:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/A2.jpg)

A very pretty young lady....

And here Beatrice dancing:

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/P5.jpg)


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 17, 2008, 03:06:43 PM
Wonderful pictures! Thanks so much for posting them, Dmitry and Britta!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on September 17, 2008, 03:18:45 PM
(http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1987/laprincesseclementinenanb6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Princess Clementine Napoleon with Princess Marie-Clotilde and Prince Louis

(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1407/leprincelouisnapoleonlehf9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Prince Louis Napoleon, Prince Raimundo della Torre e Tasso, Princess Eugenie of Greece holding son Prince Carlo Alessandro della Torre e Tasso, Queen Elisabeth of the Belgians (1952)

(http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/7712/alaindecauxandrecasteloep8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Prince and Princess Napoleon with Alain Decaux and Andre Castelot, authors of Le livre de la famille imperiale (1969)

(http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2816/07112003funeralofthecoubk9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Queen Fabiola of the Belgians, Princess Beatrice of Bourbon-Two Sicilies, and Princess Napoleon (2003)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 10, 2008, 05:51:52 AM
Hey Seth,
Thank you that you posted these pictures here! I did not see them before....I wasn't here a longer time. I have looked through that photo archive and there are a lot of more interestings pictures, also of Princess Marie Bonaparte. As it is an austrian archive there is a lot on Freud and Marie, some rare ones, which I had never seen before.
The ones you posted are some of the most interesting indeed, because they show about the family connections and relationships of them to another. It seems that Prince Louis Napoleón did have contacts with the family of Marie. I am only not so sure how frequent they were, as Marie does not mention her cousins from the Jerome line very often in her memoires (most famous her sentence. "I am the last with the name Bonaparte, if anyone ever writes about me, he shall call my biography "the last of the Bonapartes", as all my cousins do only have the name "Napoleón" ) In earlier times I did not understand why she called herself the last of the Bonaparte and that it was somewhere in a double sense: She was really the last with the name Bonaparte, even when there are a lot of "Napoléon cousins", but she was the last of her line, but also from the character etc she seems to have been the last "real Bonaparte" lady. I only know very few pictures were the families are together and the one you posted is one of them, I think I know also one more with Eugenie of Greece and Prince Napoléon and one with old Marie and younger Prince Louis in "la livre de la famille imperiale". The picture with the author of the family book is also great, as I did not see them before!!! And the belgian connections always nice to see. Thank you for the picture and the link to the photo-archive. It's great!!!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on November 27, 2008, 01:57:57 PM
HIH Prince Charles Napoléon was in Amsterdam last tuesday where he was awarded with the prestigious "Prix de Rome" on occasion
of the 200st anniversary of the prestigious prize in the world of Art and Architecture,founded by King Louis Napoléon in 1808.

The Prix de Rome was founded here after the french example,founded by King Louis XIV,and consisted of a large sum and the chance
to work in Rome for four years as an artist/architect.The french Prix de Rome ceased to exist,unfortunatly,in 1968.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 01, 2008, 03:44:42 AM
Thanks you for mentioning it here...! I think I also saw a recent article about this. If I find it again, I will post it here....
Thanks Lucien!


I also found this:

Descendant of Napoléon Bonaparte visits FSU
Institute on Napoleon and the French Revolution hosts Charles Napoleon as guest lecturer
Alicia Adams

"Charles Napoleon is the great-great grandson of Jerome Bonaparte, who is Napoleon's youngest brother," said Rafe Blaufarb, a history professor at FSU.

Since Napoleon I and Napoleon II of France do not have legitimate male heirs, Jerome's descendants are the only Imperial Bonapartes in the family line. Since Charles Napoleon is the oldest member of his family, he is currently the closest descendant to Napoleon Bonaparte.

Napoleon has written two books on Napoleonic topics, titled Bonaparte and Paoli, and The Bonapartes: Rebels at Heart. He earned a doctorate in economics at the Sorbonne in France and has held many job titles, ranging from banker to real estate developer.

"He has held a number of eminent positions in international Napoleonic Historical Associations," Blaufarb said. "He is currently the honorary president of the International Napoleonic Society. He is also the founding president of the very interesting association called the European Federation of Napoleonic cities, which groups approximately 40 European cities from about seven countries into an organization devoted to exploring the Napoleonic past that they all share."

Napoleon's lecture answered the question: What does it mean to bear the name Napoleon today? He started with a joke and then explained much of his family history.

"In fact, it's a really good question because when people look at me, they may not immediately realize the relation I have with Napoleon Bonaparte," Napoleon said. "They probably think, 'you're so tall!' or maybe worse, 'you are so little, and you are so tall.'"

Napoleon was born in France in 1950, along with his twin sister, Catherine. He was baptized by Pope John XXIII when he was serving as a bishop in France. Despite the perks of his heritage, he talked about how his life was very protected during his childhood.

"I went to school in a Jesuit school, and my social relations were highly surveyed," Napoleon said. "For instance, I couldn't go out without parties organized to meet girls because of the social origin I had."

In 1968, however, when Napoleon was 18, he started to see the world differently.

"I was surprised by the difference of life that I had in my home and the reality of the world," Napoleon said. "So I decided to leave and do my life by myself."

Although Napoleon is a part of a historically rich and imperial family, he does not consider himself better than other French citizens.

"I refuse to consider myself a member of any royal or imperial dynasty," Napoleon said. "I am a member of this family, but this family is not for me a dynasty in the royal comprehension of the word. I am a French citizen with the same rights and the same duties that all French people have."

Some students consider having the name Napoleon as a way of remembering history.

"Bearing the name Napoleon today means to be part of a legacy, to be part of a time in history when France was at its pinnacle," said FSU sophomore Krysta Markus.

As students learn the history of the world, Napoleon believes that Napoleon Bonaparte is a name they come to know sooner or later.

"Napoleon Bonaparte is a French hero and a military hero," Napoleon said. "He is one of the few historical figures that can emerge from globalized history and culture. Everyone knows Napoleon Bonaparte."

Currently, the Institute on Napoleon and the French Revolution at FSU is the only program of its kind in the United States.

"In fact, you won't find anything like it outside of France," Blaufarb said.

Napoleon commented on the various resources FSU has for students. He mentioned that Strozier library has over nine million books, whereas the university in France only has around one million.

"I am very proud that FSU has an interest in Napoleon Bonaparte," Napoleon said. "I think that the work of historians is to transform the worldwide interest by having a real historical understanding of who he was and what he did."

Students also said that it is important to study Napoleonic history and its impact on the world.

"The significance of studying Napoleonic history today shows recognition of a leader and his examples of military and political genius, which in some ways are still applicable," Markus said.

Napoleon believes that history is very important and connects perople throughout the world.

"In our world, history has to play a very important role," Napoleon said. "From my personal and professional experiences, history is the bridge between the past and the present and the bridge between individuals and our society. There is a very big difference between individual memory and history, and I believe that history is a part of democracy."

Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: susana on December 07, 2008, 02:28:35 PM
Wow, what a bonus on this site. I revere Napoleon I and am thrilled to see his legacy still lives though modernized. The only photo of Anh I saw is very sweet and what kind of historical people would be motivated to adopt a Viet Namese orphan. How generous and totally contemporary. I think the unidentified girl in the photos with the 'real' Bonapartes is little Sophie who is actually a Bonaparte. This must be an unusualy good group of people.

It would be terribly interesting to find out more about the Walewskis and other illegitimate branches--their blood is significant too.

Here's something I noticed: the Bonaparte chin which I've seen in a death mask continues to be prevalent  sporadically throughout the generations. What a man Bonaparte was!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 15, 2008, 01:56:29 PM
In general the appearance of Charles differs very much from the one of the ancestor, but yes, the chin with the small lips is still similar to Napoleón and Plon-Plon, even if Charles is more elegant from his stature and very tall....!

Nice and thank you so much for appreciating this topic!!!

Maybe it interests you that the count Walewski has created a wonderful new website on his family, also including rare photos etc.
It's great, just have a look:

www.walewski.org.


Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on December 26, 2008, 12:35:46 PM
Charles Napoleon Commences 2009 Manhattan Committee on Foreign Relations Season

10 Dec 2008

The Manhattan Committee on Foreign Relations announced on Wednesday that the organization will be hosting distinguished M-CFR member, Prince Charles Napoleon of France in early 2009.   

The visit of Charles Napoleon, Prince Imperial initiates the 2009 roster of events for the Manhattan Committee on Foreign Relations, or M-CFR.  Though the itinerary of Prince Napoleon's visit to America is undisclosed, Drew Dwyer, new President of the Manhattan based Committee, promised that the event would be towards the beginning of 2009...

Full release: http://www.prlog.org/10153511-charles-napoleon-to-initiate-the-headliners-of-2009-manhattan-committee-on-foreign-relations-season.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on February 07, 2009, 12:29:47 PM
Princess Clementine in the 1950s ~

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6848/740262rm7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4574/740263na1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Eric VdV on February 08, 2009, 09:06:35 AM
This is a very nice picture, too:

It shows Charles of Bourbon -Sicilies, brother of Beatrice, with his two nieces Princess Caroline Napoleón and Dorothée Cochin, daughter of Anne.

It was the first time for me seeing photos of Ms. Cochin, cousin of Princess Caroline and her brother.

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/M7.jpg)
At the left is Princess Constance of Bourbon-Parma, wife of Prince Charles-Emmanuel. And at the extreme right her aunt Princess Marina of Bourbon-Parma, wife of Prince André.

Eric VdV
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Lucien on February 27, 2009, 08:26:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSIaNU39PRU&feature=related

Dome des Invalides,Paris.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 10, 2009, 04:10:25 AM
Great pictures. The belgapicture site is fascinating...there are also a lot of great pictures of Charles Napoléon, even very recent ones.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 11, 2009, 06:28:13 PM
Indeed, it is a very interesting site! Princess Clementine has always struck me as very much a lady...she looked so dignified, even in her later years.

*Also, following is a link to some striking pictures of Prince Jean Christophe Napoleon. They were taken at the 2008 mass that was held at Farnborough Abbey to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the birth of Napoleon III. In the last photo the Prince can be seen with his grandmother, the Princess Napoleon, and his uncle, Prince Jerome Napoleon. I believe Princess Caroline Napoleon attended as well.
http://www.chislehurst-society.org.uk/Pages/About/People/NapoleonIIIbicentenary2008.html

*Prince Jean Christophe was a guest at the 6 Dec 2008 wedding of his cousin Archduchess Marie Christine of Austria to Comte Rodolphe de Limburg-Stirum.

*On December 9th, the Princess Napoleon assisted the Prince d'Essling in handing out the Fondation Napoleon History Grand Prix awards.
http://www.napoleon.org/en/reading_room/articles/files/472157.asp

*And here (at the very bottom of the website) can be seen the Prince Napoleon and Princess Napoleon at the 2007 Bicentenaire de la Cour des comptes. President Sarkozy was also present.
http://www.bicentenairecourdescomptes.fr/manifestations/audience51107_bis.htm
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on March 12, 2009, 11:44:43 AM
Hello!
Thank you very much for collecting all those great links and for posting them here!! The articles are great and the pictures as well..!
He has become very impressing, this young Prince, wonderful in his looks and also- as it seems like- much connected with the role of his family . I hope he will be - even when in a modern way- a good representative of his family, even in the 21th century- in future...!
I wonder a bit, why his father wasn't present there, maybe he is very busy with other things, I don't know. Or is it just the case that we don't see him on the pictures and he was there? I have to read though the articles more carefully...when more time.
I must confess I saw Charles on recent photos of the site belgapicture, and maybe it's only my impression, but he seems somewhere changed to me, he looks almost a bit too thin now or more slim than before. I hope he is well, maybe it's just that he has too much stress.... Jean Christophe is very fine like this.
Not that the appearance is that important for me, I just wonder, why Charles somewhere appeared different to me. What do others think?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Tybalt on April 29, 2009, 07:57:53 AM
Princess Caroline Napoléon (daughter of prince Charles and princess Beatrice de Bourbon-Siciles) is engaged to Mr Éric Querenet de Breville. the marriage will take place on september this year
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Tybalt on April 29, 2009, 08:02:58 AM
He was born in 1971, son of Mr François Querenet de Bréville and Mme, née  Christiane de Vaugelas (in nobilia and forum royauté). the marriage will take place on september the 19th
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 18, 2009, 08:40:50 AM
Thank you! I already got the info by a friendly member of this board...It's interesting, as I didn't know that Princess Caroline was close to any male royal and that she would already marry in the coming time. But well, she is of that age, where she is supposed to marry. It is only a little surprise that he is much older than her, already at the End of his thirtees...well yes, for me it would be too old, I think.
It would be interesting to see the couple, how this man looks like. From her looking I think Caroline will be a very beautiful bride. I hope, it's really the right husband for her, and that they will have a happy family in future....I hope there will be pics in September!! :-))
 
 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: REMI on May 20, 2009, 10:23:36 AM
(http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm65/CHARLEMAGNE_2008/ericquerenetdebr_.jpg)

Eric Quérenet Onfroy de Bréville, Caroline Napoléon' s furre husband

REMI
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Seth Leonard on July 14, 2009, 05:52:57 PM
Dear Britta ~ It seems to me that Charles is not usually present at events where his mother is also in attendance. Perhaps this has something to do with the lingering parental disapproval over Charles's divorce and remarriage? I suppose we will never know for sure! But it does indeed appear that the Princess Napoleon is on very good terms with her ex-daughter-in-law, Princess Beatrice of the Two Sicilies.

This might be of some interest...the Comte de Witt has created a nicely-done website for the Napoleon Museum, which is housed in the Chateau de la Pommerie: http://www.musee-napoleon.fr/Home-1-en.html
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on August 12, 2009, 05:25:32 AM
...Oh I haven't been here for such a long time! Thank you so much for the link to the new page of the Pommerie museum. Yes, it must be very interesting and the page is created new as I see. Great stuff there, I wished to go there once...!!!
It's interesting that you noticed that Charles and his mother are not very often together on events anymore! I remember older pictures, where they were indeed together, but maybe there is a reason that the relationship of them has become more difficult or has changed. A pity, maybe you are right, does the Princess Napoleon have a very close relationship to Beatrice?
It could be the reason, if Charles is now closer to his second family.
By the way....do you know about new political activities...?? I missed very much in the last time, I think :(
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 04, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
Great....I didn't know, how he looks like!!! Not bad! Does anyone know, if there are pics from the marriage by now??
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on October 21, 2009, 02:51:03 PM
Does anyone know about marriage pictures in between?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: ArchduchessBalfour on October 25, 2009, 01:01:15 PM
Unfortunately the family of Princess Caroline Napoleon announced sometime ago that it was stirctly a family affair, and that no pictures would be realesed, which is a shame.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on December 05, 2009, 03:20:26 AM
It's really a pity, because the marriage of her relatives were all documentated with pictures. I have much of the old Point de Vue magazines with pictures of the marriages of her aunts (sisters of Charles Napoléon) ecc, I don't understand why they are now so strict with this and don't want to release any pictures. We must respect it, but it's a bit strange, as I always thought Charles and his family are quite modern and open. But some things are strange, I also had a quite strange experience in that connection some years ago: I once had a little exchange with one of Charles Napoléon's nieces (and therefore a cousin of Caroline) and after some letters she broke the contact and told me her family does not want it! It made me very sad, it's strange and a pity!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: King François X on May 01, 2010, 03:25:41 PM
I know this is a fairly naive question..but are the Bonapartes still ruling France? Napoleon III never abdicated or renounced his title, nor did Empress Eugenie when she was regent. So, in theory, the republic is not legitimate?
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 01, 2010, 08:17:59 PM
Somebody can probably fill out more about the technical details here, but...

Napoleon III never abdicated or renounced his title

Which was empereur des Français. :-) So it's logical in a kind of ironic way: The will of the people really was his mandate and legitimisation. And they did not want him as their emperor anymore. Unlike the Bourbons, he could not claim to be God's anointed for the rest of his life. He was just an imperial president out of office.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: King François X on May 01, 2010, 08:53:38 PM
Oh..but i don't belive the House of Orleans(a branch of the Bourbons) never claimed that either, was that a similar situation with a the Bonapartes? Just a Royal "president"? Well, actually, a differnce is Louis-Phillipe abidicated.( sorry for spelling)
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 02, 2010, 11:58:01 AM
Louis-Philippe used the style Louis-Philippe, Roi des Français. This neutral, sleek, modern royal style is identical to that of his son-in-law, Leopold, Roi des Belges.

With a more traditional territorial designation, but also without any claim to rule by divine grace, this style has also been adopted by the modern Norwegian, Swedish and Spanish monarchies.

Napoleon III on the other hand, used the style Napoléon, par la grâce de Dieu et la volonté nationale, Empereur des Français. Highly ambiguous, just like his empire!
Of course he could have claimed this divine right when "the will of the nation" deposed him (as the National Assembly formally did on the 1st of March 1871), but it would look very strange for a ruler who had come to the throne through elections and plebiscites.

BTW according to the republican-imperial constitution of 1852, the next heir after his direct agnatic descendants would have to be an adopted collateral member of the Bonaparte clan, and as far as I can see no such adoption was carried out. Thus "legitimist Napoelonic rule" must be considered to have ended with his childless son's death in 1879. 
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: King François X on May 02, 2010, 04:13:08 PM
Ah..i see, thank you. I can't believe you know so much!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: susana on June 21, 2010, 12:33:12 AM
I'm reading my way through this topic again with fascination. I had NO idea there were so many descendents and so many who are active and engaged in the family history today. All the intermarriages are keeping these historical titles alive and perpetuating the marital policies of history. Wonderful material.
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on July 03, 2010, 03:59:49 PM
Thanks for your interest. I haven't been here for a longer time, but I am still working at my family tree of the Bonapartes, which is put online (myheritage.com) with more than 3.500 people until now.
I could also invite some descendants from the family helping with the dates and the newer generations etc. It's fascinating!
About the descendats of Napoleon I. there has a book appeared by Eddie de Tassigny (who is one of my correspondants in France) which is very interesting and shows all the generations. The discendants of the Bonaparte, even those of Napoleon I) are endless.....
Mr. Tassigny will also write about the descendants and possible descendants of emperor Napoleon III.
Greetings!
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 03, 2010, 04:32:26 PM
 How appropriate ! I was just searching for a thread on the Bonaparte's and nothing came up !
 In any case,  I am planing  our next spring tour of Europe and Paris is one of the cities we will return to.Paris. I have been there so many times, I cannot  count the number,  but on  my last visit, I renewed my interst in the Imperial House. We visited Les Invaliides, Fountanbleu and  NIII apartments in the Louvre. Now I would like to visit Malmaison.  Has anyone here been there?  I am mainly interested in how to get there from  central Paris [Marais]. Any other information gladly welcomed.
 Thanks,
 Robert
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 07, 2016, 02:28:02 AM
Prince Charles Napoléon and his son Jean Christophe Napoléon (both men are very handsome)

(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x377/Napo1981/168467666_zpsd9inm5ij.jpg)

...to be continued....
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: britt.25 on May 07, 2016, 02:39:54 AM
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x377/Napo1981/jean-christophe-napoleon_zpsdk18huta.jpg)

(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x377/Napo1981/imres%20wedding%20099_zpsaah7nazn.jpg)

(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x377/Napo1981/477467284_zpsaispcjes.jpg)

to be continued...
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Joanna on August 27, 2016, 10:28:33 AM
Mystery of the Musée du Louvre’s Inventory Volumes c1810s

Being intrigued with inventories, I was surprised to read the history of the Louvre's four inventory volumes which Napoleon had published.

Strahov Monastery’s Library in Prague, Czech Republic (photos below) was given the volumes by Empress Marie Louise when she stayed there in 1813.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Praha,_Hradcany_-_Strahovsky_klaster_(pohled_z_ulice_Uvoz).jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Sala_della_Teologia_-_Biblioteca_del_monastero_di_Strahov_-_Repubblica_Ceca.jpg

A problem arose when countries, hearing of the list, began demanding their treasures be returned that had been taken by Napoleon’s armies.

Napoleon hastily had the volumes withdrawn from circulation and destroyed. Strahov’s are one of the few extant today.

Joanna
Title: Re: Imperial France: House Bonaparte news
Post by: Marc on September 01, 2016, 04:03:32 PM
Jean Christophe Napoléon

Is he still in relationship with Countess Olympia von und zu Arco-Zinneberg?Any updates?