Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 06, 2006, 12:39:07 PM

Title: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 06, 2006, 12:39:07 PM
Seeing as things got a little heated resulting in the other thread getting locked, I thought I better open up a new topic on Anna Anderson, get our juices flowing again.

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.  What we're discussing is the aspects of Anna Anderson's story that remain perplexing to us, and how she may have gained the information that helped to convince so many that she was the real Grand Duchess.  What we DON'T want are arguments about why she was Anastasia, or about how the DNA could have been switched; this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.

Let's get discussing!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 06, 2006, 12:48:50 PM
Ok, so, I'm going to start us off.

On the previous thread, we were back to the languages debate.  

Anna Anderson reportedly spoke all of the folllowing languages to widely varying degrees of ability: English, Russian, French, German and Polish, though the Polish cannot be confirmed.

Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke Russian and English fluently, French very well, and German, if at all, to a school girl's level.  

Now, if Anna Anderson was Franziska Shankowska, as DNA has proven her to be, what languages should she technically have spoken? I've read German and Polish, and I also believe I read that she had a satisfactory command of English.  What I do not know is how well she spoke those languages.

There is a lot of talk about how FS was an uneducated farm girl from the back of beyond, but we KNOW this has been taken out of proportion; FS was not uneducated nor a 'farm girl' in the sense people think of it; ie, poor and rolling around in hayricks, chewing corn.  The family were fairly well to do and there is every reason to presume that FS received a good standard of education.  She was multilingual according to her family.  

So, I believe, there is every possibility that FS could have spoken and understood more languages than she is given credit for, and that any languages she spoke as AA could have been picked up from her prolonged stay in emigre communities and also German hospitals.  We know already that FS was multilingual; clearly she had an aptitude for languages.  Therefore her picking up languages easily is not as far fetched as some may claim.  I think people's opinions of FS's intellectual abilities have been tainted by this misunderstood notion that she was a poor illiterate farm girl, and that simply was not true.

Thoughts?

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 06, 2006, 01:10:39 PM
Good idea! For me, the last frontier of this mystery is HOW she did it! We may never know, because if anyone helped her (and I think they did) they aren't likely to have left a paper trail or any admission of this in life or death. So all we can do is speculate to try to fill in the holes and the missing puzzle pieces. I feel like I have been very good at coming up with reasonable alternate explainations, though I have been bashed for not being able to back it up with sources, though like I said, this isn't the kind of thing people tell on themselves or write down for anyone to find- ever. So all we can do is guess. We do know for a fact that AA wasn't AN, so when the gaps are filled, we know it needs to come to that conclusion. No more 'but what if..' She's NOT. But, how did she do it?

I'll start with your language question. While it is possible she was multilingual and had acquired skills in her life that no one knew of, I still am not convinced she really knew any of these other languages before she made her claim. The only 'evidence' we have is this person said this or that, many of them are contradictory, and most are only from supporters, making them suspect to me. I don't even buy the 'she muttered language x in her sleep.' Were those who claimed this even familiar enough with said language to identify it in her mumblings? Perhaps they were mistaken, or jumped to incorrect conclusions. If there is NO OFFICIAL record of proof of what she spoke and when, such as a test to prove this, not just one person's word of mouth, I hold to my theory that she knew little if any English, French or even Russian before she made her claim. After that, whomever was assisting her helped coach her on this. No, I can't prove it, but that's what I think. And that's what we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 06, 2006, 01:21:07 PM
I do not understand, Rachel. First you say AA was not AN- dna, then later say she WAS- period.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 06, 2006, 01:22:05 PM
D'OH!

Really should re-read my posts. Thanks for calling that to my attention, Robert!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 06, 2006, 01:34:37 PM
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Good idea! For me, the last frontier of this mystery is HOW she did it! We may never know, because if anyone helped her (and I think they did) they aren't likely to have left a paper trail or any admission of this in life or death. So all we can do is speculate to try to fill in the holes and the missing puzzle pieces. I feel like I have been very good at coming up with reasonable alternate explainations, though I have been bashed for not being able to back it up with sources, though like I said, this isn't the kind of thing people tell on themselves or write down for anyone to find- ever. So all we can do is guess. We do know for a fact that AA wasn't AN, so when the gaps are filled, we know it needs to come to that conclusion. No more 'but what if..' She's NOT. But, how did she do it?

This is what intrigues me too.  How did she fool so many people? Where did she get her information from? The sad thing is all we will ever have is theories, because as you say, there's no paper trail.  Oh how wonderful it would be to come across a signed confession 'I told AA x y and z to help her impersonate AN' from Gleb Botkin, or someone else we suspect..perhaps one day something may emerge.

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I'll start with your language question. While it is possible she was multilingual and had acquired skills in her life that no one knew of, I still am not convinced she really knew any of these other languages before she made her claim. The only 'evidence' we have is this person said this or that, many of them are contradictory, and most are only from supporters, making them suspect to me. I don't even buy the 'she muttered language x in her sleep.' Were those who claimed this even familiar enough with said language to identify it in her mumblings? Perhaps they were mistaken, or jumped to incorrect conclusions. If there is NO OFFICIAL record of proof of what she spoke and when, such as a test to prove this, not just one person's word of mouth, I hold to my theory that she knew little if any English, French or even Russian before she made her claim. After that, whomever was assisting her helped coach her on this. No, I can't prove it, but that's what I think. And that's what we're talking about here.

Ok, so, what you're saying is that you don't think AA was multilingual at ALL prior to her claims of being AN? So, we're talking about her knowing German and presumably Polish, and that's it.  Ok. I can accept that line of thinking.  You're right to say that all of the languages she supposedly spoke are based on hearsay, and a lot of this hearsay is contradictory anyway- some people say she spoke x language perfectly, others say she could barely string a sentence together, and so on.  So, it is feasible she never spoke anything but German and again, presumably Polish, until she had been instructed in other languages/around them long enough to pick them up.

What IS interesting though is when spoken to in other languages, AA replied, but only in German, so she must have understood what was being said to her in those languages, even if she wasn't able to speak them.  How can we explain that? I'd be happy to explain that away if AA spoke a Romance language, like French, because if you speak French then you can understand Italian and Spanish and so on even if you can't speak them.  However, German is not from that family of languages, so that explanation doesn't hold much water.  Also, her German wasn't particularly excellent.

I think this points to AA's first language being POLISH.  Was FS's first language Polish? Have I got that right?

Polish and Russian are very similar.  That would explain AA understanding Russian but not being able to speak it.

Doe anyone have any other information or thoughts on this? Please feel free to correct me on my languages if I am wrong.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 06, 2006, 02:14:53 PM
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This is what intrigues me too.  How did she fool so many people? Where did she get her information from? The sad thing is all we will ever have is theories, because as you say, there's no paper trail.  Oh how wonderful it would be to come across a signed confession 'I told AA x y and z to help her impersonate AN' from Gleb Botkin, or someone else we suspect..perhaps one day something may emerge.

I serioulsy doubt it, since Botkin's heirs are such huge AA supporters they'd never admit finding such a thing in his papers if they did have it. I do believe they believe he believed AA was AN, because they were the ones who instigated the DNA tests (I wonder how many conspiracy theorists know it was PRO AA people?) While I do think Gleb was a big part of the charade, I think he, like AA, may have come to believe it in later years. It's true that you can convince yourself of a lie until it becomes real. I really don't believe he actually believed her, he knew the real AN well enough and had seen her as recently as the transfer to Ekaterinburg. He is a likely source, since her memories were sporatic instead of excessive, the details sometimes a little off. Whomever was feeding her info (and I DO believe it was more than one source, some intentional, some incidental) had somewhat intimate, yet limited, knowledge of the family, their lives, and their surroundings. The real AN would have known much more. I still don't get if AA was supposed to have had partial amnesia or something?

I also don't think we can rule out people 'lying for money' on her side. AA supporters frequently accuse Olga, Ernie and Gilliard of this, but now that we know AA was not AN, how can we ignore the possibility some of those who 'claimed' her, or helped her, weren't 'in on it' for a cut of the alleged lost fortune? No, we can't prove this, but can we rule it out? Nope. Take Felix Dassel, "man with the pockets." How do we know he didn't tell her that story, or tell one of her supporters to tell her in a setup so she could amaze people? You never know!



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Ok, so, what you're saying is that you don't think AA was multilingual at ALL prior to her claims of being AN? So, we're talking about her knowing German and presumably Polish, and that's it.  Ok. I can accept that line of thinking.  You're right to say that all of the languages she supposedly spoke are based on hearsay, and a lot of this hearsay is contradictory anyway- some people say she spoke x language perfectly, others say she could barely string a sentence together, and so on.  So, it is feasible she never spoke anything but German and again, presumably Polish, until she had been instructed in other languages/around them long enough to pick them up.

For a long time I disregarded all the language comments on BOTH sides, (like the person who said she blurted out Polish in church) because they are all so contradictory and unproveable. If there was never an official test to prove what she could speak and read- and there should have been- we don't know. I can't use all those he said she saids as solid proof.

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What IS interesting though is when spoken to in other languages, AA replied, but only in German, so she must have understood what was being said to her in those languages, even if she wasn't able to speak them.  How can we explain that?

If I could be sure she did, I would believe she knew them, but I'm not. Again all we have are this and that person saying she responded, DID she? We don't know. There is no tape or legal written test to prove this. IF she did, all I can say is, in wartime and postwar Europe she must have been exposed to sevreral nationalities. But she did not speak the languages with the skill or accent AN would have.


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I think this points to AA's first language being POLISH.  Was FS's first language Polish? Have I got that right?

There are debates on this, high and low German (oh wait until bear gets here!) and Kabuchian (sp?) which is a Polish dialect of German?

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Polish and Russian are very similar.  That would explain AA understanding Russian but not being able to speak it.

This seems very logical to me, but I'm no expert.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 06, 2006, 02:27:07 PM
One other thing I want to address is the court case witnesses. Watching TV, both movies and true stories, you will see that in ANY case, there are people who get on the witness stand and SWEAR what they are saying is true. Some may say Joe was at their house at 11 PM on the 29th so he couldn't have done the crime, others swear they saw him in the store committing the crime at the same time! Some of these people are right, some wrong, some lying on purpose, some simply mistaken. It's up to the jury to decide which side is more believeable, and in many cases, innocents go to jail and guilty go free. But when there is DNA evidence, it takes precedence over testimony as proof. So what I'm saying is, just because someone said something in court and it was docmented doesn't make it absolute truth, in any case, so you have to apply this to AA's case, too. Some of those witnesses were simply wrong, or lying. How do we know? We know she wasn't AN, so anyone claiming she was, was wrong.

What was the point of this post? I'm trying to point out that incorrect testimony is common and is not unique to the AA case, so don't take all those quotes as hardcore proof.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ivan Komarov on April 06, 2006, 04:25:42 PM
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Polish and Russian are very similar.  That would explain AA understanding Russian but not being able to speak it.
I'm no linguistics expert either, but moderately able to speak Russian and very vague Polish, I can say that Russian and Polish have some similarity, resulting from centuries of Poland being part of Russia. So therefore while AA could have gotten the general idea of a statement or question (much like French to Spanish to Italian), the specifics would probably have thrown her off, since the actual vocabulary - and not the form - is what differentiates Russian and Polish.  

Polish, too, is spelled, pronounced, and inflected differently, and is slower than Russian to a certain degree (in fact, the two don't even use the same alphabet).
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 06, 2006, 09:12:43 PM
Now, let's see....
FS, according to testimonies from Felix Schanzkowski and Gertrude Ellerik, spoke good German and a little Polish. She did not understand Russian, nor did she speak it.
AA spoke faulty German with a Russian accent when she first appeared on the scene. Among the Berlin police she was known as "die unbekannte Russin" (the unknown Russian woman.) A note in the bulletin of the Dalldorf Asylum stated that she conversed in Russian with the sisters nursing her. Nurse Erna Bucholz stated that AA spoke Russian like a native in 1920. Later, in America, both her cousin Xenia and Nina confirmed that she could speak Russian. A perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society. In 1938 she was using Russian freely with Professor Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an American colleague of Edward Fallows. But when the Nazis became interested in her case, she shut herself in her apartment, refusing to see her friends and refused to speak Russian anymore.

As for English, Konrad Wahl, inspector Grünberg's grand nephew, remembered AA as a lady who spoke more English than German in 1923. In the summer of 1926, on board a steamer travelling to Switzerland, she expressed a desire to speak English with someone among the English passengers. A woman was kind enough to oblige her by both talking to her and reading English with her. And now it suddenly turned out that AA could read English altogether. Then her friend pushed a notebook over to her and invited her to take a dictation. Mrs. Rathlef, who also reported this incident, was amazed that she could now suddenly write, having been unable to do so for the whole year. She felt AA was quite unaware that an inhibition had fallen away, partly bedause the Englishwoman took in for granted that AA could write. At Schloss Seeon, Faith Lavington declared that AA knew English very well, but "the trouble is to get her to speak."

And then French. Not much to go on here. Agnes Gallagher, who escorted her to America, said that AA ordered breakfast at the hotel in Paris where they stayed en route. "I don't actually know if she spoke French," she said, "but we got exactly what we wanted for breakfast." Later, during the trials in Germany, Dominique Aucleres said that she once slipped into her native French while interviewing AA, and the latter answered back in French, with perfect accent.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ivan Komarov on April 06, 2006, 10:46:50 PM
Wow.  My posts are such midgets.

Anyhow, Chat, that was just a great confluence of informative sources - some of the people here, including you, just blow me away with these huge works!

You know, we discuss all these languages AA could speak...so I've got a dumb question because I don't know the answer to it: what languages did AN speak?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 06, 2006, 11:26:23 PM
AN spoke Russian and English. She was also tutored in German and French, but did not speak either of them well.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ivan Komarov on April 06, 2006, 11:46:30 PM
Now that I think about it...the point I was going to make is kinda stupid.

I was going to say, well, AA may know them but AN didn't, ha ha, which would mean they were definitely not alike on that footing.

But I forgot one little bit of logic - i.e., if she was tutored in French and German, then what would keep her from becoming fluent?

Silly me.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 07, 2006, 04:06:11 AM
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Now, let's see....
FS, according to testimonies from Felix Schanzkowski and Gertrude Ellerik, spoke good German and a little Polish. She did not understand Russian, nor did she speak it.

Is this the same Felix and Gertrude who testified that AA wasn't their sister?
We can't trust anything they say.

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AA spoke faulty German with a Russian accent when she first appeared on the scene. Among the Berlin police she was known as "die unbekannte Russin" (the unknown Russian woman.) A note in the bulletin of the Dalldorf Asylum stated that she conversed in Russian with the sisters nursing her. Nurse Erna Bucholz stated that AA spoke Russian like a native in 1920.

Faulty German with a 'Russian' accent? Who identified this accent as Russian? Someone who spoke Russian and was a native Russian? Or a German? I suspect the latter.
In the Dalldorf Asylum she was said to be speaking Russian, yes, but by GERMAN nurses WHO DID NOT SPEAK RUSSIAN.  Slavic languages, to the untrained ear, all sound very similar. The 'Russian' AA spoke could easily have been Polish.
Nurse Erna Bucholz was not a native Russian, so how she could pass the judgement that AA spoke Russian like a native when she was not one herself is beyond me.

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Later, in America, both her cousin Xenia and Nina confirmed that she could speak Russian. A perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society. In 1938 she was using Russian freely with Professor Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an American colleague of Edward Fallows. But when the Nazis became interested in her case, she shut herself in her apartment, refusing to see her friends and refused to speak Russian anymore.

Xenia said she spoke 'acceptable' Russian.  Nina said she 'it is not true she does not speak Russian'.  Neither mentioned anything about AA being fluent in Russian, which AN was, so how it matters whether she spoke some Russian or not, I don't know, because if she WAS AN, she would have to speak much better Russian than just 'acceptable' to convince me.

By 1938 AA had been in Germany among the emigre community and supporters for well over 10 years.  I think she would have had enough time to be taught pretty good conversational Russian.

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As for English, Konrad Wahl, inspector Grünberg's grand nephew, remembered AA as a lady who spoke more English than German in 1923. In the summer of 1926, on board a steamer travelling to Switzerland, she expressed a desire to speak English with someone among the English passengers. A woman was kind enough to oblige her by both talking to her and reading English with her. And now it suddenly turned out that AA could read English altogether. Then her friend pushed a notebook over to her and invited her to take a dictation. Mrs. Rathlef, who also reported this incident, was amazed that she could now suddenly write, having been unable to do so for the whole year. She felt AA was quite unaware that an inhibition had fallen away, partly bedause the Englishwoman took in for granted that AA could write. At Schloss Seeon, Faith Lavington declared that AA knew English very well, but "the trouble is to get her to speak."

Both hearsay from people with an invested interest in AA being AN.  If we believed all of this hearsay from random people, not necessarily qualified to make a judgement on the quality of AA's linguistic ability, seeing as the majority of them did not SPEAK the languages in question, so a sentence would sound like fluency, then AA would be the best linguist the world has ever seen.

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And then French. Not much to go on here. Agnes Gallagher, who escorted her to America, said that AA ordered breakfast at the hotel in Paris where they stayed en route. "I don't actually know if she spoke French," she said, "but we got exactly what we wanted for breakfast." Later, during the trials in Germany, Dominique Aucleres said that she once slipped into her native French while interviewing AA, and the latter answered back in French, with perfect accent.

So she managed to order breakfast in French.  Who can't ask for orange juice and croissants in French?  And, Dominique Aucleres again was an AA is AN supporter.  It was in her interests to declare that AA spoke excellent French. Funny that she only did this with Dominique.


I stand by my belief that AA was coached in languages.  She could easily have been taught English and Russian. The people she was around all the time were multilingual, so picking up conversational Russian/English/French etc would not have been difficult.  A lot of people go on trips to foreign countries for six months and come back fluent.  It is not an unusual occurence and perfectly plausible.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 07, 2006, 06:55:46 AM
[size=12]Ra-Ra-Rasputin, I agree with just about everything you say in your post. I would also like to say that you are brave to say that the Slavic languages may sound very similar to the untrained ear - I said something similar in another thread and almost got my head chopped off for it.  :-X :D

I definitely believe that Anna Anderson was coached in languages. Ever since I first read about her "ability to speak Russian" at Dalldorf I have been very suspicious of that whole story. Apparently "all doctors and nurses" at Dalldorf testified that she was "fluent in Russian and spoke freely about matters concerning Russia". All? Dalldorf was a mental asylum, and I cannot help but wonder how come the whole staff there were experts on Russian matters and Russian language.

Later, Anna Anderson refused to speak Russian because "it was spoken in that house" (the Ipatiev house). At Dalldorf she allegedly spoke Russian (it was not impossible for her to speak Russian because of "that house" then...?) but in fact she spoke A LOT more in German. Why, I ask, would she chose to speak German, if Russian was impossible for her to speak (because of "that house"), when English would have been a much more natural and given choice, since Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke English fluently and German hardly at all. The answer is of course - Fräulein Unbekannt, who used to be Franziska Schanzkowska, and was later known as Anna Anderson and finally as Anastasia Manahan, did not speak Russian.

Regarding English and French we only have hearsay as "evidence" of her abilities in these languages. Personally, I do not speak French, but I am sure I could order a breakfast in French if somebody priorly had told me what to say.

I am not sure if Polish was Franziska Schanzkowska's first language or if it was German. We have to remember that in the area where she grew up, German was the "status language". Polish, and even less so, Kashubian, was not. It is therefore likely that the Schanzkowskas said that their sister Franziska spoke "good German" and "a little" Polish or Kashubian (one of her siblings said Polish, another said Kashubian), to "keep up appearences". They may very likely have been equally fluent in German and Polish/Kashubian.

Lastly, I would like to comment something that Ivan S. Komarov wrote.
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Polish, too, is spelled, pronounced, and inflected differently, and is slower than Russian to a certain degree (in fact, the two don't even use the same alphabet).
I am no expert, but to me Polish (and I have some Polish acquaintants) does not sound slower than Russian. In fact, I think Polish sounds very fast. :) And the fact that they do not use the same alphabeths does not imply that they are very different or more distantly related. The use of alphabeth among the Slavic languages is based merely on religion. Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Serbs are orthodox and use the Cyrillic alphabeth. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes and Croatians are roman catholics and use the Latin alphabeth. For all practical purposes Serbian anc Croatian are the same langugage. The differences are extremely minor and does not effect the mutual intelligibility between speakers of Serbian and Croatian. The only significant difference between them is actually the alphabeth used to write them.

Now I will be gone for a few days, but I wish everybody a fantastic weekend, and to Ra-Ra-Rasputin - keep up your excellent work and dito postings! :)[/size][/font]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 07:45:41 AM
First, I want to draw attention to the fact that every single thing in ChatNoir's post was just what I had complained about, he said she saids. See my post above about incorrect testimonies. Just because these people allegedly said they allegedly heard her say these things does not mean they were telling the truth, or getting it right (especially since it seems to have come from supporters) If there was never any official school-type test to judge the true extent of her language skills, I remain skeptical.

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Is this the same Felix and Gertrude who testified that AA wasn't their sister?
We can't trust anything they say.

Me either. Once they had denied her as their sister, they couldn't say anything that was going to show them up as liars (I don't think it was a 'lie' in a bad way as much as covering her butt, as well as their own, from the trouble of her very extensive, expensive false, fraudulent claim. Outing her would have certainly been a big legal and financial disaster for her, possibly them, too, as her only family)

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Faulty German with a 'Russian' accent? Who identified this accent as Russian?

Again I will bring up the fact that AN had a natural gift for accents, and could mimic anything she heard. If she was speaking German, she could have done it in a German accent. So saying it was a "Russian" accent does not impress me.


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In the Dalldorf Asylum she was said to be speaking Russian, yes, but by GERMAN nurses WHO DID NOT SPEAK RUSSIAN.  Slavic languages, to the untrained ear, all sound very similar. The 'Russian' AA spoke could easily have been Polish.
Nurse Erna Bucholz was not a native Russian, so how she could pass the judgement that AA spoke Russian like a native when she was not one herself is beyond me.

Yes I have always thought this, too. I doubt those people knew Russian well enough to judge it from another similar sounding language. It happens. I remember thinking that a group of tourists I ran into were German because of their language and accent, but it turned out they were Dutch :-[


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 Neither mentioned anything about AA being fluent in Russian, which AN was, so how it matters whether she spoke some Russian or not, I don't know, because if she WAS AN, she would have to speak much better Russian than just 'acceptable' to convince me.

I agree with this too!

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By 1938 AA had been in Germany among the emigre community and supporters for well over 10 years.  I think she would have had enough time to be taught pretty good conversational Russian.

Yes, by then she would have had time to learn all the languages. This doesn't prove she knew them originally.


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Both hearsay from people with an invested interest in AA being AN.  If we believed all of this hearsay from random people, not necessarily qualified to make a judgement on the quality of AA's linguistic ability, seeing as the majority of them did not SPEAK the languages in question, so a sentence would sound like fluency, then AA would be the best linguist the world has ever seen.

Again, GOOD one!


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So she managed to order breakfast in French.

So did my Dad when he was in France, but he doesn't speak a word of it.

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AN was coached in languages

I think so too.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 07:55:17 AM
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[size=12]Ra-Ra-Rasputin, I agree with just about everything you say in your post. I would also like to say that you are brave to say that the Slavic languages may sound very similar to the untrained ear - I said something similar in another thread and almost got my head chopped off for it.  :-X :D

I agree with both of you.

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I definitely believe that Anna Anderson was coached in languages. Ever since I first read about her "ability to speak Russian" at Dalldorf I have been very suspicious of that whole story. Apparently "all doctors and nurses" at Dalldorf testified that she was "fluent in Russian and spoke freely about matters concerning Russia". All? Dalldorf was a mental asylum, and I cannot help but wonder how come the whole staff there were experts on Russian matters and Russian language.

Later, Anna Anderson refused to speak Russian because "it was spoken in that house" (the Ipatiev house). At Dalldorf she allegedly spoke Russian (it was not impossible for her to speak Russian because of "that house" then...?) but in fact she spoke A LOT more in German. Why, I ask, would she chose to speak German, if Russian was impossible for her to speak (because of "that house"), when English would have been a much more natural and given choice, since Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke English fluently and German hardly at all. The answer is of course - Fräulein Unbekannt, who used to be Franziska Schanzkowska, and was later known as Anna Anderson and finally as Anastasia Manahan, did not speak Russian.

*applause* All very good points!

She allegedly spoke Russian earlier, then didn't in later years? Isn't that weird?;) I don't believe she spoke it in the first place. It was either a lie by supporters, or people mistook another language (likey Polish Kabuchian) for Russian because they didn't know any better.


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Now I will be gone for a few days, but I wish everybody a fantastic weekend,

You will be missed, have a nice weekend.


 
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and to Ra-Ra-Rasputin - keep up your excellent work and dito postings! :)[/size][/font]

Thank you, and Ra-Ra, for your excellent posts! Hopefully the two of you will be able to get through to people where I have failed. You're both brilliant!

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 07, 2006, 08:00:56 AM
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First, I want to draw attention to the fact that every single thing in ChatNoir's post was just what I had complained about, he said she saids. See my post above about incorrect testimonies. Just because these people allegedly said they allegedly heard her say these things does not mean they were telling the truth, or getting it right (especially since it seems to have come from supporters) If there was never any official school-type test to judge the true extent of her language skills, I remain skeptical.

Exactly and I fully agree with that.  There was never an aptitude test done by an objective person so we can never say for definite what languages AA spoke and to what ability.  It is ridiculous to base evidence on what Person X and Person Y say, because how do we know they are reliable and even know what they're talking about? Answer- we don't.  As you quite rightly say, just because someone swore it in court, it doesn't mean it's true.

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Me either. Once they had denied her as their sister, they couldn't say anything that was going to show them up as liars (I don't think it was a 'lie' in a bad way as much as covering her butt, as well as their own, from the trouble of her very extensive, expensive false, fraudulent claim. Outing her would have certainly been a big legal and financial disaster for her, possibly them, too, as her only family)

Exactly.  FS's relations had it in their and their sister's best interests to lie and say they didn't know her.  The fact they said she was FS and then that she wasn't makes them very suspicious, as well as the fact that obviously they were lying because the DNA proves it.

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Again I will bring up the fact that AN had a natural gift for accents, and could mimic anything she heard. If she was speaking German, she could have done it in a German accent. So saying it was a "Russian" accent does not impress me.

Absolutely true! I keep forgetting to pick up on this.  AN spoke all of the foreign languages she was taught with a perfect accent. Why would she suddenly revert to comedy Russian in all of the foreign languages she reportedly spoke?

Also Rebecca's points are very, very interesting.

If Polish/Kashubian was a 'peasant' language in the area they lived, it is likely that her family would want to deny she spoke it well at all.

AND if AA refused to speak Russian because of the guards in the Ipatiev house (who she had actually got on well with- it wasn't the regular guards who participated in the murder, and also, if this so called 'kind' guard Tchaikovsky had rescued her, why would she have such an aversion to Russian because of the guards?), why did she suddenly start speaking it later on??

PERHAPS because it was only later on that she had been taught it to speak it.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 07, 2006, 08:05:03 AM
 
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and to Ra-Ra-Rasputin - keep up your excellent work and dito postings! :)[/size][/font]

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Thank you, and Ra-Ra, for your excellent posts! Hopefully the two of you will be able to get through to people where I have failed. You're both brilliant!


Thank you both very much! :)

It's nice to be appreciated. :)

Annie and Rebecca, I think you're both wonderful and very logical thinkers.  Plus, Rebecca, your knowledge of linguistics has been very helpful these past few days.  Welcome to the team! ;) Have a lovely weekend as well.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 07, 2006, 09:01:22 AM
Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings? Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)
Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.
Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part. May I also add that when Felix met AA, he never called her Franziska and titulated her with "Sie", not "Du" as one would do with a family member. You would all do well to check your "facts".

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 09:49:08 AM
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Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings?Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)

We are speculating, based on what we know. Who? I'd sure like to know! Speaking of a lot of writing, is there any evidence IN WRITING that AA was functional in English, French and Russian before she made her claim? Where are these papers? They'd hold a lot more weight with me than what this and that person (who may have been lying or mistaken) said.


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Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.

So since when did AA mimic anyone? She was rude to people, made fun of them, yes, but accurately imitate their voices and accent? I don't think so! You can tell by the recording of her that she had only one rugged accent she used when speaking English, so obviously she couldn't use or imitate an accurate British accent, or even an American one, after living in the US for years!

From Nicholas and Alexandra, By Robert K. Massie, p. 127:

The same ear and tongue that made her quickest to pick up a perfect accent in foreign languages also equipped her admirably as a mimic..


AN had a gift for accents, AA did not.

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Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part.

Of course it is. Who's going to admit to lying about it? But again, who'd claim a sister they knew they'd have to drag home kicking and screaming angry that her claim had been spoiled, and possibly have to care for her for the rest of her life? As Felix said one time years later "we left her to her 'career' as Anastasia." He had also said, before he met her 'If she is mysister, I won't be held responsible for her, will I?" So it seems that they did know, but didn't admit it for their own good as well as hers. The woman had filed a false claim. That's against the law. Exposing her would have caused everyone a lot of finanacial and legal hassle, not to mention the embarrassment. Public humiliation on the family honor was a terrible thing in the older times, and this was a huge embarrassment. No wonder they denied her. There was EVERY reason to deny her and NO GOOD reason to claim her. You just have to figure it out. And since we know from the tests that she WAS their sister, it makes more than a lot of sense. Sometimes logical deduction and reasonable explainations are all we have. Nobody's ever going to leave a diary saying 'I lied' or 'I fed AA info.'

This is a dicussion forum, a place to talk things over and give our own views and ideas. Not everyone limits themselves to quoting from "Riddle of Anastasia" and "File on the Tsar."
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 07, 2006, 10:16:17 AM
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Rebecca, Rachel and Annie:
Would you please state your sources to all your ramblings?

Hey, why don't you state a source other than The Riddle of Anna Anderson? Peter Kurth was clearly mistaken in his belief, so I don't see why we should quote things endlessly from sources that have been proven to be erroneous.

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Who was her language coach? (As someone who speak 6 languages, I can tell you that it is not that easy to learn without having a good teacher and doing lots of writing.)

AA could easily have been taught languages by someone with any patience to teach her.  I have taught French to many people, and I don't even speak it fluently.  I have learned four languages in my lifetime so far, and I disagree with what you say.  Go to England for six months if you're not English, mix with English people solely, and you WILL pick up English.  My friend's mother is from Slovakia and she came to England not knowing a word of English.  From watching TV soaps, she learnt enough English in a few weeks to get by.  So don't tell me it's impossible to learn languages unless you are rigorously taught.  AA was around multilingual people having conversations in a lot of different languages.  She could easily have picked up enough of foreign languages to SOUND PROFICIENT to those who did not speak those languages.  AA NEVER SPOKE FLUENTLY in ANY language, if we believe all of the hearsay you keep posting.

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Who stated that AN could pick up any accent? We know that she was a good mimic and made fun of people, just like AA did on occasions.

Read Annie's quote.

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Who said that the Schankowskis denied knowing their "sister"? This is pure speculation on your part. May I also add that when Felix met AA, he never called her Franziska and titulated her with "Sie", not "Du" as one would do with a family member. You would all do well to check your "facts".

Felix and Gertrude both expressed many times, as Annie has already said, that FS was their sister but they were not going to admit it to protect her and themselves.  Felix did not want to be held responsible for her and all her medical bills, as Annie has already said.

We are not rambling, we are speculating based on our knowledge of languages and the information we have from lots of different sources.  Just because we don't agree with your version of events, it doesn't mean we are 'rambling' or incorrect.  

WHEN IT COMES TO AA, THERE ARE NO CUT AND DRIED 'FACTS'.  EVERYTHING IS JUST HEARSAY. THE ONLY FACT WE DO HAVE IS THAT AA WASN'T AN, AND WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE OF THE DNA.

I suggest you stop closing your eyes to everything that disagrees with your opinion and stop stating the same old nonsense.  I'm tired of hearing 'But X Y and Z said'.  I don't care what Mr X and Mr Y said.  I care about looking at this objectively and logically without relying on statements from people that cannot be verified.  Something YOU seem to be incapable of doing.  

Rachel
xx


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2006, 10:29:53 AM
Where do I start with all this discussion which is bouncing all over the place like a ping-ball machine?

First.  Let's start with the fact that this thread is assuming that AA and FS are the same person.

Secondly,  FS's family was not Polish, they were Kashubian who were very early settlers who had lived along the  coast line of what we know today as Poland.  In FS's early years she spoke Kashubian, not Polish and not German.  Once FS started school this is where she was forced to speak German and it was  probably for the first time.  It was  probably  difficult for FS in the beginning.  How quickly she learned is unknown to us.  Even the brightest children often flouder in the first few months or so....  Since her first language was not  German, no matter how old she became,FS would carry her Kashubian root language somewhere in her speech.  Yes, she could be smart enough to hide it but an expert linguist would discover it sooner or later.

Living in a multi-cultural area would mean that FS would have learned a sprinkling of other languages like Polish.

If  FS's village was small and a closely knit Kashubian community [colony] then the only place German would have been spoken would have been in school.

If FS's village was a mixture of various communities and German was the dominate,  then FS would have only spoken Kashubian in her home and to other Kashubians in their home or when greeting them on the street, stores, if the village had stores.  German would have been spoken outside the home and to others.

It would be interesting to know more about the size of this community and it's make-up.

The German dialect taught in the schools would depend upon who the majority of German were and who was teaching and how educated they were.  There are three basic dialect and each have their own clustered differences.  They were Low German, Middle German, High German, and the rising new "High German" which was really a new standarized German taught in the univeristies, colleges and church schools.  All but the new "High German" was referring to location and not to which was good or poor German.  Although the same language, if a Low German person was thrust into a community of "High Germans"  it might be awhile before he understand what they were saying.

I assume FS's village was not a important community and not in the city of Posen where things would be different.

So we have some basic unknowns.  

(1) We don't know if FS's village was Kashubian or a mixture and if it was a mixture who was in the mix
(2) We do not know what dialect of German was taught to FS in school
(3)  We do not know how easily she learned German once forced to learn it in school.

Posen was in Prussia [Germany] while FS lived in her village near this city.  The laws and schooling would have fallen under what was required.

We do know that when Felix was asked to visit AA on 27 May 1927, which is seven years after AA had jumped into the Berlin canal,  Felix testified  [found on page 174 of Peter Kurth's ANASTASIA] that AA had "a strong resemblance" to his sister.  And,  he said the following:

"My sister Franziska spoke a little Polish and good German."

This is what Felix knew.

Now,  people can have the opinion that Felix was not telling the truth.  There are some people who do lies all the time, however, I have no evidence that Felix  believed AA was his sister, therefore, if he believed AA was not FS then  he was not telling any lies.

If you have evidence that Felix ever changed his mind or his testimony,  I'd like to see it.

I do not know what Felix meant when he said FS spoke "good German".  It could have a variety of meanings.  She could speak German like the Germans in their community or  the  new "High German" which becoming standorized and used by the educated and the Royals.

 
I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 10:48:38 AM
So, bear, what you're saying is, by reasonable deduction, FS's first language was Kashubian, and her second German? This makes a lot of sense in the AA debate, since AA seemed to speak German as her preferred language, yet it didn't seem to be her first language. To me, this, along with her accent, sounds a lot like AA. So this fits right in with FS being AA IMO.


One more thing on FS's family- I had saved a letter from Gertrude's lawyer stating how she no longer had to be afraid of lying when she denied her sister since the statute of limitations was up, but I can't find it. I think it was in my documents on my broken computer. It must be posted in one of these many many threads, but I don't know when I'll be able to find it. :(
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2006, 11:13:40 AM
Peter Kurth, ANATASIA, p. 10:

>>The nures at Dalldorf had never doubted that Fraulein Unbekannt was Russian.  It wasn't just her "Eastern" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep,  "She spoke Russian like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia,  "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian."  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...<<

It appears that Nurse Bucholz lived in Russia and was acquainted with the Russian language.

I wonderd by what Bucholz meant that AA spoke Russian like a native even though she does add that she thought AA hadn't learned Russian as a new language.  

I do not know enough about Russian but I assume there is a difference between the Russian the peasants spoke and the Royals.

All this is clearified in her testimony:

p. 10

>>During the nightshift I had a special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep... I told her one evening that I cam from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow [St. Masil's] and spoke about Russian matters in general.  She nodded and said she knew all this... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered.  "Yes," whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She did not speak it faulitly.  Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments...  I absolutely got the imprssion that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, russian affairs and expecially Russian military matters.<<

So, this was in the summer of 1920.

When did FS learn how to speak Russian well enough to fool a German-Russian.

There is a difference between a German going into Russia to teach German than a German-Russian who lived in Russia, who was educated in Russia where she  gain a teacher's certifiate in Russia and taught German.

When Bucholz talks about the Russian language she used words such as "connected setences without impediments".

I know it's difficult for many of you to understand why there would be so many people in an asylum who were aware of the Russian language.  Remember, there were 50,000 Russians who fled Russia and were in and around Berlin by 1920.  A portion of them were German-Russians like Bucholz.

Making blanket statements that Bucholz wasn't qualified to know the difference between someone speaking Russian like a peasant or like an educated person doesn't make it truth.

Sure, someone could have paid Bucholz to lie, but,  I have never seen evidence that this is true.

I can only go by the weight of the evidence provided and since this was spoken in court,  I weight this is evidence which is quite believeable.

So,  when and from whom  did FS learn proper Russian before she jumped into the Berlin canal because she knew it by the time Bucholz spoke to her in the summer of 1920?

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 11:30:26 AM
If all we have are word of mouth reports, there is no way to verify them. A man in VA also said, in her old age, she broke into Polish in church. There are dozens of such comments, we will never know how accurate they really are. If there are no written documents of her proving she could converse in and write and read in these languages we are back to hearsay.

It seems strange that, after falling out with many of her supporters in the late 30's, she suddenly refused to speak Russian, claiming it was heard in 'that house.' Wouldn't it have been more traumatizing for her sooner after the executions than later (if she had really been there?) So this makes me suspicious she never really knew Russian but was being fed it by someone, someone she lost contact with? Of course, there was always Botkin, but it is odd she never spoke it again after coming to America. She also never got rid of whatever accent she had, despite AN's great ability to take on foreign accents. FS may have had some contact with all those other languages, but never spoke them to the degree of skill, or accent, AN would have. Sorry, still not AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2006, 11:58:25 AM
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...[in part]...

One more thing on FS's family- I had saved a letter from Gertrude's lawyer stating how she no longer had to be afraid of lying when she denied her sister since the statute of limitations was up, but I can't find it. I think it was in my documents on my broken computer. It must be posted in one of these many many threads, but I don't know when I'll be able to find it. :(

If I remember correctly,  the letter from the lawyer is just that, a letter from her lawyer.  If Gertrude had written her worries to the lawyer,  then that would be useable evidence for those looking for evidence that Gertrude had these fears.   Since she didn't then it isn't worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 12:00:30 PM
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If I remember correctly,  the letter from the lawyer is just that, a letter from her lawyer.  If Gertrude had written her worries to the lawyer,  then that would be useable evidence for those looking for evidence that Gertrude had these fears.   Since she didn't then it isn't worth anything more than the paper it was printed on.

Then neither are the he said/she said quotes from person x and y.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 07, 2006, 12:01:25 PM
I just looked up Kashubian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubian_language

Here is some info for anyone who wants to read it.  

I think still, regardless of all this discussion of what who spoke and when, AN DID NOT SPEAK GERMAN WELL ENOUGH TO SPEAK IT TO THE LEVEL AA DID.

So, all of these other languages don't really matter, because the main limitation in the case here is that AN didn't speak German well enough to choose to speak it.  

AA chose to speak it, even though it was obviously not HER first language, because the only other language she had was Kashubian/Polish when she was first found in Germany.  How many people know Kashubian/Polish in Germany? Not as many who knew German, obviously.  So AA spoke German because that is the only way she would be understood; if she had spoken any other languages better, surely she would have used them among those who knew other languages better than German? If AA had have been AN, it is FAR more likely she would have chosen to speak in English to non Germans, as she spoke English better than German and would have found it easier to articulate herself.  But that is not the case.  Why? Because AA was FS and FS didn't speak English.  At least not until she had had time to learn it.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2006, 12:09:19 PM
If a judge in AA's court trial believed someone was not speaking the truth,  he could asked the witness to swear an oath.

Each witness told his or her story.  Each individual story is given certain weight in each Judge's mind.  

If a witness, like Bucholz,  tells the court what she heard and then gives a reason why she would know proper Russian, this is added to what already has been said and evidence which follows will either add to this statement or will subtract from it.

Other nurses and doctors gave testimony about AA's ability to speak Russian.

Apparently they (Bucholz, nurses and doctors) were in agreement.

As a Judge,  I would have seen this to be favorable testimony for AA.  Then,  I would ask if there was any evidence to prove AA did not know proper Russian and I, also, might ask AA to speak Russian in the court where someone was brought in who new proper Russian could verify AA did understand and speak Russian.

Those opposed to her knowledge of Russia in the court trial were whom?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 07, 2006, 01:27:21 PM
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....[in pat]...

Now, let's see....
FS, according to testimonies from Felix Schanzkowski and Gertrude Ellerik, spoke good German and a little Polish. She did not understand Russian, nor did she speak it.
AA spoke faulty German with a Russian accent when she first appeared on the scene. Among the Berlin police she was known as "die unbekannte Russin" (the unknown Russian woman.) A note in the bulletin of the Dalldorf Asylum stated that she conversed in Russian with the sisters nursing her. Nurse Erna Bucholz stated that AA spoke Russian like a native in 1920. Later, in America, both her cousin Xenia and Nina confirmed that she could speak Russian. A perfectly acceptable Russian from the point of view of St. Petersburg society. In 1938 she was using Russian freely with Professor Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an American colleague of Edward Fallows. But when the Nazis became interested in her case, she shut herself in her apartment, refusing to see her friends and refused to speak Russian anymore. nswered back in French, with perfect accent.

.....Kind regards
Chat Noir

More information on AA's Russian.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 04:29:01 PM
Sigh. I'm so disappointed. Bear for a few hours today I actually thought you were going to FINALLY be fair and objective to both sides with your posts, but I was wrong. You only want to dig up stuff that helps AA's case. You say you don't believe her, then prove it! Let's see all you can dig up and post AGAINST her being AN, and in favor of her being a fraud. I challenge you.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: pentetorri on April 07, 2006, 06:39:52 PM
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Sigh. I'm so disappointed. Bear for a few hours today I actually thought you were going to FINALLY be fair and objective to both sides with your posts, but I was wrong. You only want to dig up stuff that helps AA's case. You say you don't believe her, then prove it! Let's see all you can dig up and post AGAINST her being AN, and in favor of her being a fraud. I challenge you.

I have been away for a while from the Survivor posts, and I see things have worsened. Ms. Annie I consider you are taking this too serious, and you are going to extremes. Bear is a wonderful and well informed poster in many threads and you are just rambling all the time with few or no sources and just repeating yourself over and over.

I read your post asking the Forum Administrator to lock the Survivor post. Why on earth? Are you running out of steam? If you are so much stressed by these posts why don't you move along to other threads. You could try colouring pictures  ;), that will help you to calm down a little bit. And leave people like Bear and other posters to discuss armoniously this interesting subject.

We got the idea you don't believe AA!!! But, that gives you no right to ban these threads or impose your beliefs .I find no reason on earth why you are so determined to continue discussing a subject you don't believe. What a waste of energy!!. Take my advice do some colouring ........ ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 07, 2006, 06:57:19 PM
Well, miss Annie, I do profusely apologize for using so much "hearsay" and "he said, she said" in my posts. But, you see, I was not there, and therefore rely on testimonies and court records etc. etc. to form an opinion of the case. Of course, when you state Anastasia's ability to pick up accents as a FACT by reading it in "File on the Tsar", and Marie's finger being squeezed as a FACT because Olga said so, that's a different story. I think it is called pure, unadulterated hypocrisy. The thing is, my dear, you cannot have it both ways. Just because something goes against your belief, does not make it invalid. And just because it agrees with you, does not necessesarily make it valid. We are all looking for the solution to the mysteries by examining the facts, or what has been presented to us as facts, from those who witnessed the goings-on. All mindless speculation, categorical denials, accusations of lying just make you and your ilk seem silly to me. And your disappointment in Bear's repeat of my post just shows me how very, very biased you are.
Also, for your edification, I do not quote from FOT. Simply because I do not have it in my collection, and it has been many years since I read it. My sources are as follows:
Roland Krug von Nidda: Ich, Anastasia. erzähle.
Hans Nogly: Anastasia: Ein Frauenschicksal wie kein Anderes
Peter Kurth: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson
Robert K. Massie: The Romanovs
John Klier and Helen Mingay: The Quest for Anastasia
I also have several other books on the subject, but the above are my main sources.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 08:06:47 PM
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 just repeating yourself over and over.

As are all the people quoting "Riddle of Anastasia" and "File on the Tsar."

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I read your post asking the Forum Administrator to lock the Survivor post. Why on earth?

Did you bother to check the date on my post? Did you see it's about six months old? At that time, this place had become a complete farce. It's not the same way now that it was, though it never really changes, at the time I wrote that things were getting pretty extreme. It's now outdated, and your response is out of line.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 08:08:15 PM
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 Just because something goes against your belief, does not make it invalid.

Right back atcha.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 07, 2006, 08:17:11 PM
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Quote

 Just because something goes against your belief, does not make it invalid.

Right back atcha.

I  wholeheartedly agree. That's why I am trying to get you and your ilk to present more FACTS, whether they go against my opinion or not, and if they do, it will be up to me to dig up more evidence and defend my position. Or admit defeat. That's what makes a forum like this fun.
And now off to Palm Springs. A sybarite must have his time in the sun. In the meantime, can anyone explain to me how AA was able to identify Lieutenant Arapov? I'll check in again on Sunday and see the answers.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 07, 2006, 10:44:06 PM
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I  wholeheartedly agree. That's why I am trying to get you and your ilk to present more FACTS, whether they go against my opinion or not, and if they do, it will be up to me to dig up more evidence and defend my position.

Your 'facts' are very questionable and unverifiable. All you have are a bunch of people saying this and that.  But really, it is all so ridiculous for you to demand 'facts' when YOU deny the fact that the DNA proved AA was not AN. So you really have nothing!

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Or admit defeat.

Defeat??!! You have GOT to be kidding. Um, pssst, haven't you heard? The tests are back, she's not AN, you have already lost.

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And now off to Palm Springs. A sybarite must have his time in the sun.

Well, we're not all rich, you know.

 
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In the meantime, can anyone explain to me how AA was able to identify Lieutenant Arapov?

One thing I wonder a lot about this, and the 'pockets' guy, is how this was arranged. It doesn't make any sense. Who found these people and brought them to her, and were they really anonymous? To me there seems a big chance that, if it was known who they were ahead of time, that she knew, and it was all a set up. Somebody told her, or the person in question was involved too. But either way, we know SOMEBODY told her, because, you do know, she wasn't AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 08, 2006, 12:24:01 AM
Just a note - a person does not need to be rich to go to Palm Springs. In fact, the warmer the weather gets, the more the hotel rates go down.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 08, 2006, 01:18:46 AM
Thanks Lisa, I needed a laugh after all of the above  !!!

Tatiana+


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Just a note - a person does not need to be rich to go to Palm Springs. In fact, the warmer the weather gets, the more the hotel rates go down.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 08, 2006, 01:22:30 AM
Yo, ChatNoir, :)

Excellent sources! Love your facts. The more facts the better it is! I see your as well fluent in German.
 ;) Facts are better than she said, he said, or even 'perhaps' ....

Tatiana+


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Well, miss Annie, I do profusely apologize for using so much "hearsay" and "he said, she said" in my posts. But, you see, I was not there, and therefore rely on testimonies and court records etc. etc. to form an opinion of the case. Of course, when you state Anastasia's ability to pick up accents as a FACT by reading it in "File on the Tsar", and Marie's finger being squeezed as a FACT because Olga said so, that's a different story. I think it is called pure, unadulterated hypocrisy. The thing is, my dear, you cannot have it both ways. Just because something goes against your belief, does not make it invalid. And just because it agrees with you, does not necessesarily make it valid. We are all looking for the solution to the mysteries by examining the facts, or what has been presented to us as facts, from those who witnessed the goings-on. All mindless speculation, categorical denials, accusations of lying just make you and your ilk seem silly to me. And your disappointment in Bear's repeat of my post just shows me how very, very biased you are.
Also, for your edification, I do not quote from FOT. Simply because I do not have it in my collection, and it has been many years since I read it. My sources are as follows:
Roland Krug von Nidda: Ich, Anastasia. erzähle.
Hans Nogly: Anastasia: Ein Frauenschicksal wie kein Anderes
Peter Kurth: Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson
Robert K. Massie: The Romanovs
John Klier and Helen Mingay: The Quest for Anastasia
I also have several other books on the subject, but the above are my main sources.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 08, 2006, 01:25:11 AM
I'm tired of rain, I want some sunshine also. Can you send me a can full of sun ChatNoir ?
Have lots of fun !

Tatiana+


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 Just because something goes against your belief, does not make it invalid.

Right back atcha.

I  wholeheartedly agree. That's why I am trying to get you and your ilk to present more FACTS, whether they go against my opinion or not, and if they do, it will be up to me to dig up more evidence and defend my position. Or admit defeat. That's what makes a forum like this fun.
And now off to Palm Springs. A sybarite must have his time in the sun. In the meantime, can anyone explain to me how AA was able to identify Lieutenant Arapov? I'll check in again on Sunday and see the answers.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 08, 2006, 01:37:59 AM
Dear Pentetorri,

Your comprehension, and background of Russian history is first rate, excellent by far. I look forward to your input, because I respect always what you have to offer the forum members. Your posting on the Rasputin thread was unbelieveable. It held everyone's attention.

Bear really goes in depth to find and share facts, and that's what so good. She goes as far as to give out information which many use to throw back at her, oddly enough these other posters never going to find any facts themselves, but always giving excuses, or side stepping the point of relevance in posting real facts. It becomes old hat to see a poster so centered on this alone without considering other points of view. Bear shares facts, not just her opinion. I think Bear is very well informed. She does not repeat herself, but quotes and posts relevant posts. Glad to see that as an objective reader, you feel Bear to be fair in her postings. Thank you Pentetorri always for your input.

Tatiana+


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Sigh. I'm so disappointed. Bear for a few hours today I actually thought you were going to FINALLY be fair and objective to both sides with your posts, but I was wrong. You only want to dig up stuff that helps AA's case. You say you don't believe her, then prove it! Let's see all you can dig up and post AGAINST her being AN, and in favor of her being a fraud. I challenge you.

I have been away for a while from the Survivor posts, and I see things have worsened. Ms. Annie I consider you are taking this too serious, and you are going to extremes. Bear is a wonderful and well informed poster in many threads and you are just rambling all the time with few or no sources and just repeating yourself over and over.

I read your post asking the Forum Administrator to lock the Survivor post. Why on earth? Are you running out of steam? If you are so much stressed by these posts why don't you move along to other threads. You could try colouring pictures  ;), that will help you to calm down a little bit. And leave people like Bear and other posters to discuss armoniously this interesting subject.

We got the idea you don't believe AA!!! But, that gives you no right to ban these threads or impose your beliefs .I find no reason on earth why you are so determined to continue discussing a subject you don't believe. What a waste of energy!!. Take my advice do some colouring ........ ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 08, 2006, 12:54:30 PM
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Sigh. I'm so disappointed. Bear for a few hours today I actually thought you were going to FINALLY be fair and objective to both sides with your posts, but I was wrong. You only want to dig up stuff that helps AA's case. You say you don't believe her, then prove it! Let's see all you can dig up and post AGAINST her being AN, and in favor of her being a fraud. I challenge you.


(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/Yes.jpg)

What would you like me to find for you?

As for my opinion:

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 08, 2006, 01:18:41 PM
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Seeing as things got a little heated resulting in the other thread getting locked, I thought I better open up a new topic on Anna Anderson, get our juices flowing again.

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.  What we're discussing is the aspects of Anna Anderson's story that remain perplexing to us, and how she may have gained the information that helped to convince so many that she was the real Grand Duchess.  What we DON'T want are arguments about why she was Anastasia, or about how the DNA could have been switched; this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.

Let's get discussing!

Rachel
xx

I thought I'd repeat Rachel's original post.  Let me repeat somethings she said which outlines our discussion:

In this thread:
 (1) Rachel: >>So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results. <<
(2) Rachel:>>Where did she get her information from? <<
(3) Rachel:>>How did she 'know' so many languages?<<
(4) Rachel:>> Were people helping her? If so, why? <<
(5) Rachel:>>Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?<<

Rachel:>>this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.<<

A comment on (1) Rachel: >>So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results. <<

Rachel used the word "we", and I assume this refers to those who believe the DNA / mtDNA results.  I don't think she was excluding those of you who believe AA was GD Anastasia because without everyone's knowledge,  we can't discover all that we would like to know about AA and her stories.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 08, 2006, 03:27:10 PM
Bear, I don't want you to find what I ask you to find, I want you to find something YOU choose to post, of your own free will, because you want to show that you don't believe AA was AN. Show me!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 10:30:36 AM
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Rachel used the word "we", and I assume this refers to those who believe the DNA / mtDNA results.  I don't think she was excluding those of you who believe AA was GD Anastasia because without everyone's knowledge,  we can't discover all that we would like to know about AA and her stories.

AGRBear

Yes that is correct, Bear.
I don't care who posts on this thread, but I don't want people saying the DNA is irrelevant and such because it is and the DNA is certainly not up for question here.

What IS up for question is the ways and means of how Anna Anderson managed to convince those who believed she was AN.

Again, this thread is beginning to generate into a slanging match at the expense of any real discussion.  Regardless of how certain members feel about other members, I should imagine we are all adult enough to refrain from being derogatory towards each other.  Let's get a little perspective here; Anna Anderson does not in any way effect our lives, so there is no need to let the subject drive us to anger and disrespect towards others.  It is possible to have an intelligent, enjoyable debate without having to be held back from each other by burly bodyguards in the guise of Lisa and FA.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 10:42:01 AM
Right, let's move away from the languages debate now because no-one seems to be able to agree on this issue and we're just going round in circles.

Anna Anderson 'knew' a lot of information about the 'private' world of the Tsar and his family.

However, how much of what she did know was actually 'private'? Could the information she had really have been picked up from gossip magazines and from those close to the IF who chose to help her?

An example that was often used to claim AA's authenticity was the Uncle Ernie 'secret' visit to Russia during the war.  Later on that was said by a society lady to be an 'open secret: everybody knew about it'. (Peter Kurth, The Riddle of Anna Anderson).

So, was the information AA knew actually that impressive? Judging from that example, I suspect not. AA's supporters seem to have blown the significance of her 'intimate knowledge' way out of proportion to help their case.

Also, what she did know would have sounded impressive to people because they didn't know much about the IF themselves; they were a VERY private family, remember.  Who would have the required knowledge of the intimate life of the family to contradict her? Anna Vyrubova, the only real intimate of the court, more intimate than the family, was never asked for an opinion on AA's claims.  Plus, a lot of the information AA knew was very general.  'We always had tea at four' becomes less impressive as an insight to the life of the IF when it is realised that everyone in those days had tea at four, for example.

Thoughts?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 09, 2006, 12:41:55 PM
[size=10]If we are looking for facts, I would like to have substantiated for that time frame, names of the gossip magazines available that would have had information that she could have picked it up from, of facts known on the intimate details, etc. of the Imperial Family, members, palaces, etc. ?

What languages were these gossip magazines available in, of the areas in which Anna Anderson resided for that time frame?

I think this is important to know how much information these 'gossip magazines' at the time, offered a reader, so we may understand to what degree of information was gained by all readers, and what was not. Thanks.

Tatiana+[/size][size=10][/size]
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Right, let's move away from the languages debate now because no-one seems to be able to agree on this issue and we're just going round in circles.

Anna Anderson 'knew' a lot of information about the 'private' world of the Tsar and his family.

However, how much of what she did know was actually 'private'? Could the information she had really have been picked up from gossip magazines and from those close to the IF who chose to help her?

An example that was often used to claim AA's authenticity was the Uncle Ernie 'secret' visit to Russia during the war.  Later on that was said by a society lady to be an 'open secret: everybody knew about it'. (Peter Kurth, The Riddle of Anna Anderson).

So, was the information AA knew actually that impressive? Judging from that example, I suspect not. AA's supporters seem to have blown the significance of her 'intimate knowledge' way out of proportion to help their case.

Also, what she did know would have sounded impressive to people because they didn't know much about the IF themselves; they were a VERY private family, remember.  Who would have the required knowledge of the intimate life of the family to contradict her? Anna Vyrubova, the only real intimate of the court, more intimate than the family, was never asked for an opinion on AA's claims.  Plus, a lot of the information AA knew was very general.  'We always had tea at four' becomes less impressive as an insight to the life of the IF when it is realised that everyone in those days had tea at four, for example.

Thoughts?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 12:51:53 PM
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[size=10]If we are looking for facts, I would like to have substantiated for that time frame, names of the gossip magazines available that would have had information that she could have picked it up from, of facts known on the intimate details, etc. of the Imperial Family, members, palaces, etc. ?

What languages were these gossip magazines available in, of the areas in which Anna Anderson resided for that time frame?

I think this is important to know how much information these 'gossip magazines' at the time, offered a reader, so we may understand to what degree of information was gained by all readers, and what was not. Thanks.

Tatiana+[/size][size=10][/size]

Yes, that would be very interesting to know, Tania.  Sadly I haven't a clue, but if someone could shed a light on this, that would be fantastic.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 09, 2006, 01:19:33 PM
Those magazines were mentioned in one of the innumerable threads on this topic. One would need a lot of time on their hands to find them now.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 09, 2006, 01:41:19 PM
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Rachel used the word "we", and I assume this refers to those who believe the DNA / mtDNA results.  I don't think she was excluding those of you who believe AA was GD Anastasia because without everyone's knowledge,  we can't discover all that we would like to know about AA and her stories.

AGRBear

Yes that is correct, Bear.
I don't care who posts on this thread, but I don't want people saying the DNA is irrelevant and such because it is and the DNA is certainly not up for question here.

What IS up for question is the ways and means of how Anna Anderson managed to convince those who believed she was AN.

Again, this thread is beginning to generate into a slanging match at the expense of any real discussion.  Regardless of how certain members feel about other members, I should imagine we are all adult enough to refrain from being derogatory towards each other.  Let's get a little perspective here; Anna Anderson does not in any way effect our lives, so there is no need to let the subject drive us to anger and disrespect towards others.  It is possible to have an intelligent, enjoyable debate without having to be held back from each other by burly bodyguards in the guise of Lisa and FA.

Rachel
xx

 ;)
Rachel - this is the first (and perhaps only) time in my life I have been referred to (even metaphorically) as a "burly bodyguard". Good for you to encourage everyone to be respectful of one another and to not get angry.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 09, 2006, 02:18:03 PM
Dear Rachel,

I'm just wondering in all the court records, in all of the past people who have gone through the lengthy information to date, with the court, and those who may have as well followed issues outside court proceedings, surely someone must have documented these details of what gossip magazines were in vogue, and read, plus what languages, and where they may have been offered, what countries, etc. To read this imformation would allow further understanding indeed.

I don't think these magazines [scandal sheets] would have had as vast a dispensing service available to those interested in these kind of magazines, or even subscription services. I think it may have been only offered in that one language. We are looking specifically for the areas Anna was before, and during the varing times of her stays in those specific given areas. Certainly before the time the court started their in depth questioning of all involved.

As you know, I don't have the strength, nor the connects to be of assuredness to assist, or even start to research this, and i apologize. But I think also this would be a very important part of the puzzle to follow through on.

Thanks Rachel for understanding.

Tatiana+

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[size=10]If we are looking for facts, I would like to have substantiated for that time frame, names of the gossip magazines available that would have had information that she could have picked it up from, of facts known on the intimate details, etc. of the Imperial Family, members, palaces, etc. ?

What languages were these gossip magazines available in, of the areas in which Anna Anderson resided for that time frame?

I think this is important to know how much information these 'gossip magazines' at the time, offered a reader, so we may understand to what degree of information was gained by all readers, and what was not. Thanks.

Tatiana+[/size][size=10][/size]

Yes, that would be very interesting to know, Tania.  Sadly I haven't a clue, but if someone could shed a light on this, that would be fantastic.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 02:27:50 PM
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Right, let's move away from the languages debate now because no-one seems to be able to agree on this issue and we're just going round in circles.

All these threads do.

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Anna Anderson 'knew' a lot of information about the 'private' world of the Tsar and his family.

However, how much of what she did know was actually 'private'? Could the information she had really have been picked up from gossip magazines and from those close to the IF who chose to help her?

I think FA  mentioned once that about 80% of her 'memories' came from a 1926 book, I forget the name. Also, several people close to the family, like AV, Lili Dehn and Buxhoevedon had all published memoirs in the early 1920's.

For me, there is no question someone fed her her 'memories', the only question is WHO, when and if it was intentional or incidental. She did NOT know these things for herself, because she was not AN.

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An example that was often used to claim AA's authenticity was the Uncle Ernie 'secret' visit to Russia during the war.  Later on that was said by a society lady to be an 'open secret: everybody knew about it'. (Peter Kurth, The Riddle of Anna Anderson).

Well, this has been discussed a lot here, too, and so far there is NO evidence of this other than one German man who allegedly claimed it was true once he was old. Other than that, there is no way. It has even been discussed here how impossible it would be for this to be 'secret' considering the circumstances of the war. There really is no more evidence of this than there is of the existence of Alexander Tchiakovsky. It's just a legend.

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So, was the information AA knew actually that impressive? Judging from that example, I suspect not. AA's supporters seem to have blown the significance of her 'intimate knowledge' way out of proportion to help their case.

I don't think it was nearly enough to be impressive. The more I read of her 'memories' the more they reek of a 'mole' who had intimate, yet limited, knowledge of the family and their surroundings. This is why there is something to them but the details are often off. Again, the Botkin children remain my main suspects here, though they certainly weren't the only ones capable. Europe was full of Russian emigres' who would have known little things.

They were so 'little' even in the days when I was kind of a supporter, I wondered if she had amnesia, or did she claim to have only partial memories? They were never that impressive to me.


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Also, what she did know would have sounded impressive to people because they didn't know much about the IF themselves; they were a VERY private family, remember.  Who would have the required knowledge of the intimate life of the family to contradict her? Anna Vyrubova, the only real intimate of the court, more intimate than the family, was never asked for an opinion on AA's claims.  Plus, a lot of the information AA knew was very general.  'We always had tea at four' becomes less impressive as an insight to the life of the IF when it is realised that everyone in those days had tea at four, for example.

Another very good point. The family was very private and no one left alive except perhaps Anna V. would have known (and why they didn't ask her is a big glaring spot to me, I think they were afraid she'd expose AA because she 'knew too much.') I saw someone post here once, and it's a good thought, WHO would be around to verify all this 'intimate knowledge only AN would know.'??? WHO would know to say if she were right or wrong? So again, it doesn't mean much!

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 09, 2006, 02:49:39 PM
Regarding Virubova, while she would have been the most reliable of all the people left alive to say yes or no about AA, it was felt she was so "tainted" due to her support of Rasputin that both sides were loathe to consult her. And, that's a shame, because she undoubtedly knew Anastasia Nicholievna better than any living person as of 1919.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 02:59:19 PM
[size=14]Just a few words on some of the "sources" ChatNoir has in his library.
Hans Nogly's Anastasia. Ein Frauenschicksal wie kein anderes (which, freely translated means "Anastasia. A fate like no other of a woman"; literally translated it would be "Anastasia. A woman's fate like no other".) is a novel. It was published in 1957. Hardly a reliable source.

The book by Roland Krug von Nidda, Ich, Anastasia, erzähle, which means "I, Anastasia, tell", although the English version of the book is named I, Anastasia: An Autobiography, was published in 1958. More than anything it is a compilation of lies, as it is based on Anna Anderson's "memories" and statements. The book was apparently at first pretended to be written by Anna Anderson, but later it was unveiled that it was written by somebody else with the help of Anna Anderson's lawyers. Hardly a reliable source either. [/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 03:10:25 PM
[size=14]To me there is no question that Anna Anderson was fed her "memories" by somebody. She was not Anastasia Nicholaievna, so she could not have one single memory that Anastasia Nicholaievna had. The question is who fed her these "memories", and like others already have said, I doubt it very much that we will ever know who did it and how they pulled off some of the other things.

Anyway, this discussion can go on forever, simply because some people prefer to live in fantasyland and will not accept science, at least not in this case. It makes the debate both boring (as it goes around in circles as Ra-Ra-Rasputin and Annie have said already) and useless, as it seems impossible to bring the Anna Anderson supporters out of the foggy dreamlands where the size of a shoe or some blurted words in something that was allegedly Russian means more than the results of modern science.

I will from now on concentrate (well, at least I will try!  :D) on more interesting topics and threads which do not go round round round like merry-go-rounds.  :-X ;)[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 03:59:01 PM
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[size=14]Just a few words on some of the "sources" ChatNoir has in his library.
Hans Nogly's Anastasia. Ein Frauenschicksal wie kein anderes (which, freely translated means "Anastasia. A fate like no other of a woman"; literally translated it would be "Anastasia. A woman's fate like no other".) is a novel. It was published in 1957. Hardly a reliable source.

The book by Roland Krug von Nidda, Ich, Anastasia, erzähle, which means "I, Anastasia, tell", although the English version of the book is named I, Anastasia: An Autobiography, was published in 1958. More than anything it is a compilation of lies, as it is based on Anna Anderson's "memories" and statements. The book was apparently at first pretended to be written by Anna Anderson, but later it was unveiled that it was written by somebody else with the help of Anna Anderson's lawyers. Hardly a reliable source either. [/size]

Isn't it amazing how much you know about these books without having read them. You must have ESP.  My hat off to you.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 04:01:15 PM
And in the meantime, NObody has managed to tell me how AA knew Lieutenant Arapov.  Any explanations?

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 04:06:20 PM
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Regarding Virubova, while she would have been the most reliable of all the people left alive to say yes or no about AA, it was felt she was so "tainted" due to her support of Rasputin that both sides were loathe to consult her. And, that's a shame, because she undoubtedly knew Anastasia Nicholievna better than any living person as of 1919.

WHO felt she was 'tainted', and why would this hurt? It was Tatiana Botkin who said that (quote in Massie's "Romanovs the Final Chapter"), so that shows it was the decision of her supporters to avoid AV. But I don't believe it was the real reason AA supporters avoided her, I think it was because she knew too much, and if she denounced her it would be a serious blow. Also, having become an Orthodox nun, she was not exactly an easy target to label a 'liar' or 'greedy' as AA supporters loved to do to those who denied her.

I've never heard anything about why the 'anti-AA' side didn't contact her, or why, or if they even tried. That would have been interesting.

The REAL Anastasia would not have had a problem with her, she was very close to her and loved her. She and AV exchanged personal letters while the family was in Tobolsk. The REAL Anastasia wouldn't have had a problem with the Rasputin issue, like her mother and siblings, she loved him, and wore his icon around her neck. So, AA's rejection of him, along with her rejection of Orthodoxy and her inability to cross herself in the Orthodox way are yet other tattletale grey signs she wasn't the real thing.

Rebecca- THANK YOU for the valuable information, and I agree with both of your posts!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 04:11:50 PM
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Isn't it amazing how much you know about these books without having read them. You must have ESP.  My hat off to you.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir



[size=14]And is it not absolutely astonishing that you obviously regard an obsolete novel as a reliable source, and not only that but also an outdated "autobiography" by somebody proven by modern science NOT to be Anastasia Nicholaievna? No hats off for you, I am afraid.  :D[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 04:14:00 PM
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And in the meantime, NObody has managed to tell me how AA knew Lieutenant Arapov.  Any explanations?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I already addressed this in a previous post, but here goes again: since there will NEVER be any hardcore proof on this since no one left any writings and no one could read minds, I can only offer my best speculations (which will never be good enough for you, dear black cat, I know, but I must try)

In this case, as well as the 'man with the pockets', I believe it was a set-up. How were these people brought to her? There had to be planned meetings, and if so, who sought them out, and how was it all arranged? I find it very likely that she was told who the person was before she met him by someone while in private so she could 'amaze' people in public, or, the person himself was in on the charade, perhaps for a cut of the alleged jackpot? (hey you accuse Ernie and Olga and Gilliard, why is the other side exempt from this accusation?) No matter what, though, we do know for a cold, hard fact that AA was not AN, so, somebody, somehow, told her. Because of this, my explainations are very realistic.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 04:19:49 PM
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Isn't it amazing how much you know about these books without having read them. You must have ESP.  My hat off to you.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir



[size=14]And is it not absolutely astonishing that you obviously regard an obsolete novel as a reliable source, and not only that but also an outdated "autobiography" by somebody proven by modern science NOT to be Anastasia Nicholaievna? No hats off for you, I am afraid.  :D[/size]

A person who criticizes my sensible, well thought out explainations as not being 'sources' uses such feeble fiction as a 'source?'  :o It just shows how desperate and blind the AA supporters can be. How sad.

Thanks again Rebecca for the valuable information!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 04:27:32 PM
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Quote
Quote

Isn't it amazing how much you know about these books without having read them. You must have ESP.  My hat off to you.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir



[size=14]And is it not absolutely astonishing that you obviously regard an obsolete novel as a reliable source, and not only that but also an outdated "autobiography" by somebody proven by modern science NOT to be Anastasia Nicholaievna? No hats off for you, I am afraid.  :D[/size]

A person who criticizes my sensible, well thought out explainations as not being 'sources' uses such feeble fiction as a 'source?'  :o It just shows how desperate and blind the AA supporters can be. How sad.

Thanks again Rebecca for the valuable information!


[size=14]Yes, it is quite amazing isn't it? But most of all, it is sad, like you said.
You are very welcome! :)[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 04:32:38 PM
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;)
Rachel - this is the first (and perhaps only) time in my life I have been referred to (even metaphorically) as a "burly bodyguard". Good for you to encourage everyone to be respectful of one another and to not get angry.

I thought you might like that Lisa. ;)

In the words of Kylie and Jason, it was 'Especially for You'.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 04:42:17 PM
Here's something else I thought of on this. When I was watching "Long Way Round", where actor Ewan McGregor and some others travel around the world by motorcycle, I was once again reminded of AA. They had a next to impossible time getting across parts of Russia, Kazakstan, Mongolia, and Siberian Russia. This was in 2004, with expensive motorcycles, and the money and ability to call for help at any time. Seeing this, I had to imagine once again how ridiculous and impossible that alleged 'cart ride' was!  ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 04:59:48 PM
This is what I like to see.  A nice bit of informative debate going on.

ChatNoir, it would be great to see you involve yourself in a non-sardonic manner for once and respond to people's posts without resorting to the lowest form of wit. You don't help your case by speaking to people like that.  As I said before, we're all adults here, and we all deserve to be treated with respect.  Rebecca showed those of us who don't speak German (thanks Rebecca- you're fantastically helpful) that one of the sources you posted is actually not a reliable source at all; that's helpful to us.  I would think that at your age you would be able to be corrected without stooping to jibes.  

Anyway, back to the topics.  There have been some great points flying around.

Tania- I think I have some information that may help you.  In Peter Kurth's Anna Anderson he talks about AA reading magazines that were freely available in the Dalldorf Asylum that were several years old and had articles in them about the Imperial Family.  These magazines seem to have therefore been printed in German.  Seeing as the IF were very popular in Europe, and Alexandra was a German princess after all, I wouldn't be surprised if they and their lifestyle were covered in a lot of magazine articles.  I know also from looking around on ebay and also at posts on this site, that there were some special edition magazines, focussing on royal life in particular royal courts, which also would have had a fairly wide distribution.  So, we're talking about magazines that would have been available to a lot of people.  If they were in a mental asylum, they must have been the equivalent of People magazine or something like that- cheap, 'glossy', entertaining, doctor's waiting room type magazines.  Maybe someone can confirm that for me? Though, as Annie has pointed out previously and in this thread, a lot of the memoirs from the royal household, like Vyrubova's and Lili Dehn's, came out in the 1920's, and it wouldn't have been hard for AA to get her hands on those.  Seeing as the centre of the Russian emigre movement was in Berlin, it would surprise me if these books weren't printed in German.

Annie- Once again you raise lots of interesting points.  I never knew about her getting almost all of her information from a 1926 memoir; that would explain a lot.  Intimate details, but never too intimate, right?

And I agree about the mole.  Someone was feeding her.  And someone was teaching her languages.  Who? We can only guess.  But we know that they weren't sufficiently close to the IF to know all of the intimate details, because as we have often discussed, the details AA knew were often close but still slightly off the mark.  The chinese whispers effect.  Plus we have no-one to contradict.  So there is the big hole in the story.  We have all of this information that sounds impressive, but no-one to verify it.
Anna V is not asked; the convenient excuse that she was too close to Rasputin is produced as a reason.  However, this is not convincing.  Mostly because as you say, if AA was AN, she wouldn't have a problem with AV's ties to Rasputin; she loved him herself! AV wasn't asked because she was the only person with the potential to blow AA out of the water.  

A thought has just occured to me.  It's interesting how in the early days AA refused to talk about certain aspects of her 'life' as AN because it was too 'painful'.  However, later on, she had no problem talking about Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg, and also no problem in speaking Russian.  This seems to me to be simply because she was not given the information she needed in order to talk about these events/speak in Russian until later.  

And as for how she knew about Lieutenant Arapov and other such visitors, well, it's obvious to me that she was 'briefed' about them beforehand.  Obviously no-one is going to admit this happened, but it must have done.  It's like all of these medium/psychic TV shows. 'Madame X knows nothing about Mr Y.  She doesn't even know his name.  But now watch as she tells him everything about his life and how Mr Y can't believe his eyes as her amazing accuracy.'  Who says Madame X didn't know his name and look him up beforehand? The TV show. But the TV show doesn't want us to know Madame X is a fake.  Neither did AA's supporters.  So, the story goes that AA is never told about visitors and who they are beforehand, so it's a true test of her knowledge.  No, we can't prove that AA was briefed before each visitor came to call, but we also can't prove that she wasn't. So this has to remain a distinct possibility and I personally would be shocked if she hadn't been told about each visitor before they came.

Rebecca - as usual, thank you for the excellent information.  It's great having you around! I would never have known about that German book if you hadn't have told us. :) If only these people would get their heads out of the clouds, we'd have it much easier in discussing this topic.  But it also wouldn't be as much fun, I suppose!

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 09, 2006, 05:01:07 PM
Quote
Here's something else I thought of on this. When I was watching "Long Way Round", where actor Ewan McGregor and some others travel around the world by motorcycle, I was once again reminded of AA. They had a next to impossible time getting across parts of Russia, Kazakstan, Mongolia, and Siberian Russia. This was in 2004, with expensive motorcycles, and the money and ability to call for help at any time. Seeing this, I had to imagine once again how ridiculous and impossible that alleged 'cart ride' was!  ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 09, 2006, 05:06:03 PM
The 1926 book Annie refers to is Spiridovitch's "Les Dernieres Annees..." Now, can I prove FS/AA read it? No, but it was out there in 1926 in Europe. The detail in it is chronological, first hand and in such good detail that now that I have translated most of it into English  [highlight]I[/highlight][/i][/b] could pass myself off as Anastasia!  :P

Oh, the gender thing.  ;D, well on second hand, I'd be better off being Alexei. Am VERY well preserved for 101.  8-) Don't you think?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 05:45:15 PM
Quote
The 1926 book Annie refers to is Spiridovitch's "Les Dernieres Annees...quote]

Les Dernieres Annees, hmmmm. May one deduce from this that Franziska S. was fluent in French?

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 05:55:01 PM
Quote
This is what I like to see.  A nice bit of informative debate going on.

ChatNoir, it would be great to see you involve yourself in a non-sardonic manner for once and respond to people's posts without resorting to the lowest form of wit. You don't help your case by speaking to people like that.  As I said before, we're all adults here, and we all deserve to be treated with respect.  Rebecca showed those of us who don't speak German (thanks Rebecca- you're fantastically helpful) that one of the sources you posted is actually not a reliable source at all; that's helpful to us.  I would think that at your age you would be able to be corrected without stooping to jibes.  


Oh, how I would like to, but some of you make it so easy......
The book by Hans Nagly is a biography, and contains very much of the same material as Peter Kurth's book. (You know, that seriously flawed one....!)
Ich, Anastasia, is a collection of her own "memoirs" with very, very interesting information from von Nidda. Maybe some of you should do a little more reading before deriding certain books as non reliable sources.
As for the good Lieutenant Arapov, he was NOT presented to AA for recognition. Edward Fallows met him in Europe, and cabled AA to see if she could identify him. AA cabled back and asked if he limped one leg short. It turned out that he was injured during the war and walked with a limp in the hospital in Tsarskoe Selo at the time Anastasia knew him. The wound had since healed, and he now walked normally. They met some years later in Germany and recognized each other.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 06:13:11 PM
Quote


Oh, how I would like to, but some of you make it so easy......
The book by Hans Nagly is a biography, and contains very much of the same material as Peter Kurth's book. (You know, that seriously flawed one....!)
Ich, Anastasia, is a collection of her own "memoirs" with very, very interesting information from von Nidda. Maybe some of you should do a little more reading before deriding certain books as non reliable sources.
As for the good Lieutenant Arapov, he was NOT presented to AA for recognition. Edward Fallows met him in Europe, and cabled AA to see if she could identify him. AA cabled back and asked if he limped one leg short. It turned out that he was injured during the was and walked with a limp in the hospital in Tsarskoe Selo at the time Anastasia knew him. The wound had since healed, and he now walked normally. They met some years later in Germany and recognized each other.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir


According to various sources, the Nagly book is labelled as a novel, but if you like to describe it as a biography, that is perfectly fine. Maybe we can describe the books by Philippa Gregory (her subjects are from the Tudor era) as biographies too.  :D And should Nogly's book by any chance be anything like a biography, it is still outrageously outdated, as it describes the fictive memories and doings of an imposter, a Polish-German woman named Franziska Schanzkowska who pretended to be the murdered grand duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna - modern science has proven that Anna Anderson was NOT Anastasia Nicholaievna, what ever "material" this book contains (and let me say that it is not hard to imagine, not hard at all actually, that much of this worthless material is recycled into Mr. Peter Kurth's book  :D).

You may call Krug von Nidda's book whatever you like - since Anna Anderson was not Anastasia it is a fictional book, maybe except for her "memories" as Anna Anderson, like maybe what she had for breakfast a certain day at Dalldorf. In every respect where this book even touches Anastasia Nicholaievna, it is fraudulent, since, again, Anna Anderson was NOT Anastasia Nicholaievna.

I wholeheartedly wish that some of the Anna Anderson supporters would really present anything, just anything, which have the same weight and significance as the modern DNA-testing science, instead of coming waving with obsolete books written by gullible people who believed in a fraud or who knows which up-in-the-clouds conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 07:16:25 PM
Vel, Rebecca, som du redan vet: Det er bara dom vilda fåglarna som flyger.
Maybe you should try it one day, you may have fun.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 07:17:06 PM
Quote
The 1926 book Annie refers to is Spiridovitch's "Les Dernieres Annees..." Now, can I prove FS/AA read it? No, but it was out there in 1926 in Europe. The detail in it is chronological, first hand and in such good detail that now that I have translated most of it into English  

Thanks!

FS/AA didn't know much French, but all of the Russian emigre' community did so someone could easily have helped her or translated for her. (just like we have you to translate for us!)



Quote
[highlight]I[/highlight][/i][/b] could pass myself off as Anastasia!  :P

Oh, the gender thing.  ;D, well on second hand, I'd be better off being Alexei. Am VERY well preserved for 101.  8-) Don't you think?

Aha! I knew it all along!  ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 09, 2006, 07:20:05 PM
Quote


As for the good Lieutenant Arapov, he was NOT presented to AA for recognition. Edward Fallows met him in Europe, and cabled AA to see if she could identify him. AA cabled back and asked if he limped one leg short. It turned out that he was injured during the war and walked with a limp in the hospital in Tsarskoe Selo at the time Anastasia knew him. The wound had since healed, and he now walked normally. They met some years later in Germany and recognized each other.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

This still does not prove she wasn't tipped off, or informed of him by someone, even Arapov himself. But it was probably arranged by one of her supporters. He seems a rather obscure character, I wonder if the real AN would even remember him by name. They (supporters) must have been really desperate to find someone willing to play along. I'm sure most people close to the family wanted no part of the charade, and they had to be careful whom they confronted.

Ra-Ra- VERY good idea about the 'Madame X' info feeding! That makes a lot of sense!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 09, 2006, 09:04:18 PM
Quote
Quote
The 1926 book Annie refers to is Spiridovitch's "Les Dernieres Annees...quote]

Les Dernieres Annees, hmmmm. May one deduce from this that Franziska S. was fluent in French?

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Chat Noir
You should really do more research before restorting to baseless sarcasm, which only shows your ignorance on the subject.  Spiridovitch spoke no French. His original volume was published in Russian...
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but why then the French title?

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 09, 2006, 11:02:22 PM
I hesitate to wade into this one, but I have read I, Anastasia many times, and it is virtually useless as an indicator of what Andersen/Schanzkowska knew as "Anastasia". The sections dealing with the Romanov family are either very general, or too specific to be checked -- she mentions (briefly and rarely) conversations that Anastasia had with siblings, who of course were not around to corroborate. It picks up steam once she is on safe territory, i.e. her documented life as Anna Andersen. And of course her input was questionable even then --- I think it is now widely regarded as ghost-written. One source questioned whether Andersen/Schanzkowska herself had ever read it, and I can't think of anyone who uses it as a reliable informant. The "story" emerged during the decades before the "autobiography" was published.

I remember thinking that Andersen/Schanzkowska's fragmented story contrasted strongly with Eugenia Smith's far more coherent, detailed memoir published in the early 60s. And of course that was twaddle. Then again, Smith had decades to assemble her narrative, and access to whatever memoirs had been published about the family. Until she came forward in 1962-63, Smith was unknown and free to do what research she wished.

Andersen/Schanzkowska must have been a bit constricted in her access to source materials once she was publicly identified as Anastasia. Surely had she been seen reading/researching it would have attracted attention?

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 09, 2006, 11:12:32 PM
Quote
I hesitate to wade into this one, but I have read I, Anastasia many times, and it is virtually useless as an indicator of what Andersen/Schanzkowska knew as "Anastasia". The sections dealing with the Romanov family are either very general, or too specific to be checked -- she mentions (briefly and rarely) conversations that Anastasia had with siblings, who of course were not around to corroborate. It picks up steam once she is on safe territory, i.e. her documented life as Anna Andersen. And of course her input was questionable even then --- I think it is now widely regarded as ghost-written. One source questioned whether Andersen/Schanzkowska herself had ever read it, and I can't think of anyone who uses it as a reliable informant. The "story" emerged during the decades before the "autobiography" was published.

Andersen/Schanzkowska must have been a bit constricted in her access to source materials once she was publicly identified as Anastasia. Surely had she been seen reading/researching it would have attracted attention?


Oh yes, the book was definitely "ghost written", I don't think AA even knew about it until it hit the stores. And I agree, her "memory" in that book does not do much for her chances to be authenticated as AN. But I do find von Nidda's writings rather interesting, it "adds a bit of fuel to the fire".

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 09, 2006, 11:58:15 PM
Quote
Vel, Rebecca, som du redan vet: Det er bara dom vilda fåglarna som flyger.
Maybe you should try it one day, you may have fun.

Kind regards
Chat Noir


[size=14]Jo, herr Svarta Katten, jag vet att det bara är de vilda fåglarna som flyger, men du kanske inte vet att somliga vilda fåglar löper stor risk att flyga vilse - vilket är precis vad du har gjort när det handlar om Anna Anderson. :D

Jag vet däremot inte vilket lexikon eller liknande du använde när du försökte skriva på svenska, men vilket det än var, så ljög det för dig.  ::) Man kan inte använda ordet väl (som du stavade "vel") i det sammanhang som du försökte dig på att göra.

And now, may we end this exchange of polite jibes and not waste more time and space?

If you can bring up any evidence (and I mean real, substantial evidence, not size of shoes, comparisons of the ears, et cetera) which can challenge the DNA-evidence, then please do so. But please do not come slamming obscure books in people's heads or again posting a picture of Franziska Schanzkowska/Anna Anderson pretending it is of Anastasia Nicholaievna. Annie spotted it immediately the last time you tried, and I am positive that she will do it again. :)

Oh, and now I must rush to my job![/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 10, 2006, 08:27:26 AM
Quote
Pardon my ignorance, but why then the French title?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Because it has never been published in English, and as I am also fluent in French I use the original French version and do my own translations.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 10, 2006, 08:35:57 AM
Quote
Quote
I hesitate to wade into this one, but I have read I, Anastasia many times, and it is virtually useless as an indicator of what Andersen/Schanzkowska knew as "Anastasia". The sections dealing with the Romanov family are either very general, or too specific to be checked -- she mentions (briefly and rarely) conversations that Anastasia had with siblings, who of course were not around to corroborate. It picks up steam once she is on safe territory, i.e. her documented life as Anna Andersen. And of course her input was questionable even then --- I think it is now widely regarded as ghost-written. One source questioned whether Andersen/Schanzkowska herself had ever read it, and I can't think of anyone who uses it as a reliable informant. The "story" emerged during the decades before the "autobiography" was published.

Andersen/Schanzkowska must have been a bit constricted in her access to source materials once she was publicly identified as Anastasia. Surely had she been seen reading/researching it would have attracted attention?


Oh yes, the book was definitely "ghost written", I don't think AA even knew about it until it hit the stores. And I agree, her "memory" in that book does not do much for her chances to be authenticated as AN. But I do find von Nidda's writings rather interesting, it "adds a bit of fuel to the fire".

Kind regards
Chat Noir


The fire seems to be blazing along nicely without additional fuel.

If you recognize that the "autobiography" is worth nothing as a buttress for Andersen/Schanzkowska's case, why advance it as a source?

I am afraid that Schanzkowska's sources are lost. Tania might be correct in that it would help if we knew what exactly was in those "gossip" magazines at Dalldorf. And I think it likely that she drew upon others' memories, wittingly or unwittingly (I think she believed herself to be Anastasia within a few years of taking on the identity).

I'm curious. Are you and Rebecca slinging Swedish back and forth? I read German and I can sorta kinda follow it, which means nothing, I know, as far as Schanzkowska's ability to follow languages she may not have been overly familiar with, but still . . . it's interesting.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 10, 2006, 08:56:05 AM
This is nothing short of AMAZING! Annie accuses me of quoting from "The File on the Tsar", and I disclose my sources. Right away I am being attacked for "slamming obscure books in people's heads", using "obsolete" information and what not. What is WRONG with some people here? I try to read all I can to find more information on the case, and it seems to be a mortal sin. And I still find von Nidda's writings interesting although the rest of the book is rather trite.
Regarding "Les Dernieres Annees", my "baseless sarcasm" is just a question to the one who suspected Franzisca of reading French. And why accusing me of ignorance on the subject when reference was indeed made to the French translation?
And Rebecca, I am sorry that my Swedish has become somewhat rusty, but I haven's spoken it for almost 25 years, and it was never my first language.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 10, 2006, 09:01:17 AM
The sources you revealed were proven to be unreliable. You can't keep using fantasy and hearsay, even if documented, to combat reality. (DNA proof AA was not AN)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 10, 2006, 07:36:29 PM
I didn't realize there was a mystery about the book I AM ANASTASIA.  According to my copy, it states that it is an "autobiography of the Grand-Duchess of Russia".  With it are notes by Roland Krug von Nidda and it was translated from German to English by "Oliver Colburn".  My edition adds that the "Translation  and copyright was 1958 by Verling Heinirch Schaffer G.m.b.H. and Michael Joseph Ltd".
 
It was first publish in Germany under the title:
 
ICH, ANASTASIA, ERZAELE and published in England under the title I, ANASTASIA.

There is no date attached to the German book.  What was it?

Added to this is:
 
"Thanks are due to Gleb Botkin for permission to quote material from his book THE WOMAN WHO ROSE AGAIN".
 
My book makes it appear that AA is speaking and there are astericks which divide what AA seems to be telling us and the notes of  Krug von Nidda's.
 
On the book cover it reads: "Anastasia tells the story of her life, first as a happy princess at the court of St. Petersburg, later as a woman nameless and ill in an alien world."  
 
From information given here by some posters,  am I to understand this may be a fabrication and AA took no part in this book?  

Louis Charles suggests a "ghost writer".

Quote

...[in part]

...I hesitate to wade into this one, but I have read I, Anastasia many times, and it is virtually useless as an indicator of what Andersen/Schanzkowska knew as "Anastasia".

... --- I think it is now widely regarded as ghost-written. One source questioned whether Andersen/Schanzkowska herself had ever read it, and I can't think of anyone who uses it as a reliable informant. The "story" emerged during the decades before the "autobiography" was published.

...
 
What are the sources which tell us AA took no part in this book?
 
AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 10, 2006, 11:17:54 PM
I believe the "ghost written" is conceded by every author who has written on the subject, but try Massie, Klier and Mingay, and any others you can get your hands on.

For the record, I am not alleging this, I am bringing it up as a known fact. That is why Chat Noir agreed with  the point. And "fabrication" is too strong a word, Bear. The idea is that the ghost writer wove together the bits and pieces of things Andersen/Schanzkowska had said during the thirty-odd years she was giving bits and pieces of "The Story" into a more or less coherent narrative. Read it, and judge for yourself how successful you think he was.  

Andersen/Schanzkowska herself was on record as dismissing the "autobiography". My point in posting was not to discredit the book, but the employment of it on these threads as a useful source of verifiable information. It is not and never was, or we would not be going around the barn about Alexander Tchaikovski and mythical trips taken by blood-stained survivors across the steppes.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 09:17:32 AM
Quote
I believe the "ghost written" is conceded by every author who has written on the subject, but try Massie, Klier and Mingay, and any others you can get your hands on.

For the record, I am not alleging this, I am bringing it up as a known fact. That is why Chat Noir agreed with  the point. And "fabrication" is too strong a word, Bear. The idea is that the ghost writer wove together the bits and pieces of things Andersen/Schanzkowska had said during the thirty-odd years she was giving bits and pieces of "The Story" into a more or less coherent narrative. Read it, and judge for yourself how successful you think he was.  

Andersen/Schanzkowska herself was on record as dismissing the "autobiography". My point in posting was not to discredit the book, but the employment of it on these threads as a useful source of verifiable information. It is not and never was, or we would not be going around the barn about Alexander Tchaikovski and mythical trips taken by blood-stained survivors across the steppes.

So, do most of you assume  this book is what we called today  "an unauthorized" autobiography of AA, which gives the reader an appearance this is AA's version of how she, as GD Anastasia,  escaped, etc. etc.?

Does anyone have a clue who the "ghost writer" was?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 09:33:23 AM
Looked in the index of Massie's THE ROMANOV, THE FINAL CHAPTER under Krug von Nidda.  Didn't find anything.  Nor did I find mention of Nidda in Peter Kurth's book ANASTASIA.

Went to THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by Kleir and Mingay.

p. 143:

>>...This was not the first book based on her words, for Roland Krug von Nidda had written a well-publicized work in 1957, consisting of her verbatim recollections and interspersed with passages of explanation, partly provided and composed by Prince Frederick.<<

There is no mention that this isn't AA's story as suggested.

Lovell's book p. 222-223:

>>...In 1957, a German firm published a purported authorized biography, which appeared later in England as I, ANASTASIA and in American as I AM ANASTASIA.  Edited by Roland Krug von Nidda, this book was an international best-seller and was translated into a least a dozen languages.  Despite its claims to telll her story in her own words, Anastasia was completely unaware of the book until after it was already published.

She would later say that her first knowledge of Roalnd Nidda's work came when he appeared suddennly one day in Unterlengenhardt with a hundred copies for her to distribute.  She had never met the man before and was surprised to learn that he had been engaged in the project at the urging of the German attorneys.  Although I, ANASTASIA contained many truths -- to which she herself would often point-- it was not the memoir she had envisioned herself writing.  She remained forever dissatisfied with the work as a whole and felt betrayed that her lawyers had sought to profit by robbing her of the one project in which she would maintain a lifelong interest-- the telling of of her story in her own words.<<

Am I to believe what Lovell tells us since some of you don't believe parts of his book either?

What appears to be, the attorneys and others had gathered the bites and pieces of AA's story, put them togather in a book form.  Although AA would have liked to have done this herself,  the project was given to Roland Krug von Nidda who apparently had been given the information.  

So, this book is based on material gathered by people around her who were trying to make sense out of the information AA had given them.

Does this mean the book is not valid or does it mean that AA had unknowingly given what was needed for this book and the information is valid?
 


AGRBear



Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 11, 2006, 10:15:17 AM
Bear,

Please re-read my post. It clearly states that the recollections contained in the book were Andersen/Schanzkowska's, compiled and put into coherent form by Nidda. The book is not an "autobiography" in the sense that she sat and dictated it, or even worked with the ghost writer. It was compiled from things that she had been saying or hinting at for 30 years.

As I said in my post, to call it a "fabrication" is an overstatement. You used that word when you asked about the book. Thanks to the work of the compilers, who included Prince Frederick, it gives an illusion of coherency to her narrative that it did not possess in the telling. Is it a "fabrication"? Well, yes, if the story she told is untrue. So I am not sure what you mean.
Everyone who knew her --- including her supporters --- agreed with the statement that Andersen/Schanzkowska's rescue story emerged in bits and pieces. If we can believe Summers and Mangold, and I do, parts of it were still emerging as late as the 1970s.

As I said in my post, I am simply pointing out that I, Anastasia is not a source of verifiable information until Andersen/Schanzkowska's ghost writer takes up the narrative at Dalldorf, and even then there is a massive amount of partisan interpretation applied to the behavior of people like Olga Alexandrovna and Pierre Gilliard. Once she assumed the identity at Dalldorf, we have evidence of her movements and actions, however, provided by independent witnesses like the nurses.

May I suggest that you obtain the book and read it? It is readily available through your library's interlibrary loan system, free of charge.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 10:19:39 AM
Quote
...[in part]...
...Tania might be correct in that it would help if we knew what exactly was in those "gossip" magazines at Dalldorf. And I think it likely that she drew upon others' memories, wittingly or unwittingly (I think she believed herself to be Anastasia within a few years of taking on the identity).

....

On an old thread, there was a huge discussion about the magazines AA read while in Dalldorf.  I remember Penny telling us about them.  There was another poster who collected old magazines like the ones mentioned.  I assume Penny's posts are gone, however, if I can remember where this was discussed, there was mentioned one of the names of the magazines....

I think it was interesting that there were magazines about Russian royality in a German asylum.  One would think since Germany and Russia were at war that all the magazines dealing with the German enemy, which the Romanovs  were, would have been dumped into the garbage right after the war started.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 11, 2006, 10:29:17 AM
Well, it was at least a couple of years AFTER the war when she was looking at the magazines, so . . . I think there was (and is, for that matter) a voracious public appetite for that kind of thing --- gossip about royalty. And perhaps these were not subscriptions maintained by Dalldorf, but cast-offs that people shlepped over to the institution in much the same way that people donated used books and magazines to hospitals back in my day.

In any event, I don't think we will ever know. How could anyone "prove" that a magazine was there, unless there was an in-house, cataloged library of the periodicals, and I doubt there was. This is one of the things that makes Andersen/Schanzkowska's acquisition of general information about the Romanovs so interesting, isn't it?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 10:29:56 AM
Quote
Bear,

Please re-read my post. It clearly states that the recollections contained in the book were Andersen/Schanzkowska's, compiled and put into coherent form by Nidda. The book is not an "autobiography" in the sense that she sat and dictated it, or even worked with the ghost writer. It was compiled from things that she had been saying or hinting at for 30 years.

As I said in my post, to call it a "fabrication" is an overstatement. You used that word when you asked about the book. Thanks to the work of the compilers, who included Prince Frederick, it gives an illusion of coherency to her narrative that it did not possess in the telling. Is it a "fabrication"? Well, yes, if the story she told is untrue. So I am not sure what you mean.
Everyone who knew her --- including her supporters --- agreed with the statement that Andersen/Schanzkowska's rescue story emerged in bits and pieces. If we can believe Summers and Mangold, and I do, parts of it were still emerging as late as the 1970s.

As I said in my post, I am simply pointing out that I, Anastasia is not a source of verifiable information until Andersen/Schanzkowska's ghost writer takes up the narrative at Dalldorf, and even then there is a massive amount of partisan interpretation applied to the behavior of people like Olga Alexandrovna and Pierre Gilliard. Once she assumed the identity at Dalldorf, we have evidence of her movements and actions, how
ever, provided by independent witnesses like the nurses.

May I suggest that you obtain the book and read it? It is readily available through your library's interlibrary loan system, free of charge.

 I did read your post.  I didn't disagree with what you voiced,  I merely went to the sources you suggested and quoted the ones which had information.

In an earlier post,  I had mentioned the fact that I do have the book and carefully described who wrote the notes, who translated it and even some words from the cover of the book.

Quote
... [ in part]...

I didn't realize there was a mystery about the book I AM ANASTASIA.  According to my copy, it states that it is an "autobiography of the Grand-Duchess of Russia".  With it are notes by Roland Krug von Nidda and it was translated from German to English by "Oliver Colburn".  My edition adds that the "Translation  and copyright was 1958 by Verling Heinirch Schaffer G.m.b.H. and Michael Joseph Ltd".
 
It was first publish in Germany under the title:
 
ICH, ANASTASIA, ERZAELE and published in England under the title I, ANASTASIA.

There is no date attached to the German book.  What was it?

Added to this is:
 
"Thanks are due to Gleb Botkin for permission to quote material from his book THE WOMAN WHO ROSE AGAIN".
 
My book makes it appear that AA is speaking and there are astericks which divide what AA seems to be telling us and the notes of  Krug von Nidda's.
 
On the book cover it reads: "Anastasia tells the story of her life, first as a happy princess at the court of St. Petersburg, later as a woman nameless and ill in an alien world."  
 
 .....
AGRBear


Thank you for the addtional information.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 11, 2006, 10:52:16 AM
Bear:

You're more than welcome. I am sorry I was confused about your ownership of the book. I inferred from your post that you thought I was looking at a different edition where there was additional information about the authorship. Has I, Anastasia been where you derive your information about the "Story"?

This was actually one of the books that sent me into history as a field of study. One of my teachers took it apart, dissecting it as a source, after I used it in a paper. I was in high school, and had accepted it as the truth because, in essence, it was a published book under her name (i.e Anastasia Nicholaevna's). I was directed to "authenticate" her story. Bear in mind that this was long before the discovery of the gravesite, and there was literally no forensic evidence to suggest that she had died or lived with anything remotely approaching 100% accuracy.

And the story simply cannot be authenticated through conventional historical methodology. It is simply her "word" that this is the way it happened, and unfortunately her "word" has been fatally damaged by the DNA.

 One can make an interesting guess --- setting aside the identity of Andersen as Schanzkowska, indeed setting aside the whole Andersen/Schanzkowska identity theft completely --- that the real Grand Duchess Anastasia may have been alive when the bodies were carried from the room. I have read a public speculation by Penny Wilson in which she makes a case for at least the short-term (as in minutes) survival of Demidova and Marie, while treating Anastasia's as a separate issue. It was grim reading, and because Wilson is a compelling writer, it had a certain persuasiveness. But no one can prove it as anything other than a possibility, and there is just as much evidence --- and even more of a possibility --- that the girl died in the Ipatiev basement. In any event, Andersen/Schanzkowska is ruled out for me.


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 12:09:52 PM
I just purchased this book and haven't finished it but hopefully will in the next couple of days when I find some quiet time.

So,  no,  my information about the trek (the cart trip) from Ekaterinburg to southern Russia and into Bucharest wasn't from this book.  I will, when I reach that point, read it carefully to see if there is additional information.

To me,  AA wasn't  just some crazy lady who jumped into a Berlin canal and mention to a nurse that she was one of the Grand Duchesses and pointed at GD Anastasia's photo in some magazine.  I agree with Annie that someone coached her, however, I'm not convinced it was anyone we have read about in any books.

Speaking of magazines,  on p. 22 in Peter Kurth's book, ANASATASIA:

>>...And she bore such a striking resemblance to the Russian imperial family.  So, at least, the nurses thought when they compared her features to photographs of the imperial family printed in a cheap illustrated magazine.  There were many of these publications lying about the aslum in the library and on the tables, some of them dating from as far back as 1914 and others, more recent recounting the sensational news of the murder of the Tsar and his family at Ekaterinburg.<<


>>Nurse Bertha Walz maintained that shen she saw the photographs in front of her Fraeulein Unbekannt  "showed quite an altered behavior".  She became "utterly sad, quite pale and said, 'I know all these.' "<<

Farther down the page is Thea Malinovsky's, a night nurse's,  statement, and in it is the name of the magazine:

>>After she had been sitting with me for about half an hour she said that she wanted to show me something.  She went to her bed and pull a Berliner Illustrierte out from her mattress.  On the cover was a photograph of the Russian imperial family.  She put the magazine down in from of me and asked if I was not struck by something in the picture.    I looked closely at the photograph but didn't know what she was driving at.  Howewver, as I looked longer it occurred to me that Fraeulein Unbekannt bore a distinct resemblace to the youngest of the Tsar's daughters.  But I pretended that I couldn't see anything in particular, whereupon, she pointed to the young girl and asked if I still didn't notice [p. 12] anything.  I said, no.  She asked,  "Then you don't see any resemblance between the two of us?"  Now I had to admit that I did indeed see a resemblance.  Suddenly she got very upset.  I asked her if it was she.  She turned away, not wanting to let out any more.  I told that she shouldn't have come this far unless she was prepared to tell me the rest.<<

I made the title of the magazine in bold print:

>>... Berliner Illustrierte...

Nurse Malinovsky was full of interesting information.  She talked about many things which many anti-AA posters claim AA didn't know until later.  But Malinovsky said she had told her about some of these things, such as the jewels sewin into their clothes, the little cushions held in Demidova's hands on the night of the exeuction.... from 1920 to  1921.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 11, 2006, 12:43:32 PM
Quote
Quote
And in the meantime, NObody has managed to tell me how AA knew Lieutenant Arapov.  Any explanations?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I already addressed this in a previous post, but here goes again: since there will NEVER be any hardcore proof on this since no one left any writings and no one could read minds, I can only offer my best speculations (which will never be good enough for you, dear black cat, I know, but I must try)

In this case, as well as the 'man with the pockets', I believe it was a set-up. How were these people brought to her? There had to be planned meetings, and if so, who sought them out, and how was it all arranged? I find it very likely that she was told who the person was before she met him by someone while in private so she could 'amaze' people in public, or, the person himself was in on the charade, perhaps for a cut of the alleged jackpot? (hey you accuse Ernie and Olga and Gilliard, why is the other side exempt from this accusation?) No matter what, though, we do know for a cold, hard fact that AA was not AN, so, somebody, somehow, told her. Because of this, my explainations are very realistic.

Is there any evidence that anyone told AA about Lieu. Arapov?

Edward Farrows, who was AA's American lawyer, met Arapov in 1929 in Paris. Arapov, who had been Lieutenant Arapov in 1915 and a patient in the hospital in St. Petersburg asked Farrows to ask AA if she was able to give a descripton of him [Arapov].   When Farrow asked AA about Arapov she responded:

p. 275 of Peter Kurth's ANATASIA:

>>The response was quick:  "Does Arapov limp one leg short?"<<

Arapov and AA later met in Berlin and Arapov seem to believe AA was GD Anastasia.

Did Arapov ever change his mind about AA?

Is there any proof that anyone told AA about the "Man with the Pockets", Captain Felix Dassel?

This story is told  on p. 193 of Peter Kurth's book ANASTASIA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on April 11, 2006, 01:57:00 PM
Quote

I'm curious. Are you and Rebecca slinging Swedish back and forth? I read German and I can sorta kinda follow it, which means nothing, I know, as far as Schanzkowska's ability to follow languages she may not have been overly familiar with, but still . . . it's interesting.


Well, it was Swedish from my part and a kind of broken Swedish (comparable to my broken English ;)) from his. I find it very interesting that you were able to follow it since you read German. :) It gives at least a little support to the possibility of understanding related languages (something I was writing about in another thread some time ago).
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 11, 2006, 03:40:59 PM
Quote
Quote

I'm curious. Are you and Rebecca slinging Swedish back and forth? I read German and I can sorta kinda follow it, which means nothing, I know, as far as Schanzkowska's ability to follow languages she may not have been overly familiar with, but still . . . it's interesting.


Well, it was Swedish from my part and a kind of broken Swedish (comparable to my broken English ;)) from his. I find it very interesting that you were able to follow it since you read German. :) It gives at least a little support to the possibility of understanding related languages (something I was writing about in another thread some time ago).

I have to admit that it had occured to me as well, and unlike your English, which seems mighty fine to me, my German is rusty from lack of use. Thanks!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Amelie on April 11, 2006, 08:46:59 PM

Hi  :)

I haven't read any of your comments, there's just soooo many of them.  Please tell me if this has already been discussed as a possibility, for, I know how annoying it is when people repeat what has already been stated.  :)

I heard somewhere, from a television program about the Romanovs a while back, I think it was the History Channel (overall, reliable source), that when excavators (sp) first discovered and performed DNA tests on the remains of Nicholas II that his DNA didn't match that of the other Romanovs.  Testers tried to identify the bones once again, from a different portion of the remains, and found that his DNA did indeed match, making the remains that of Nicholas.  It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA. There's some long medical term, and, of course, I can't remember it, but if you've ever heard of it, I'm sure you'll know what I'm carrying on about.  With this condition, embryo's are conceived as twins, but fuse together, becoming one. (this is only one possibility) This rarely happens, making information virtually impossible to acquire.  

Do you think this...condition could be genetically inherited? If so, Nicholas could have passed it on to Anastasia--known to some (not me, as much as I'd like to admit it) as "Anna Anderson." The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)

Besides me, have any of you ever heard of Nicholas having this condition? Do you think he could have had it, or is it just another petty rumor?  Do you think it's a possibility that it if Nicholas carried 2 sets of DNA, his offspring could have?

If you're interested, I'll look for some more info about this "condition"

Amelie  :D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 11, 2006, 09:00:03 PM
Quote
Hi  :)

I haven't read any of your comments, there's just soooo many of them.  Please tell me if this has already been discussed as a possibility, for, I know how annoying it is when people repeat what has already been stated.  :)

I heard somewhere, from a television program about the Romanovs a while back, I think it was the History Channel (overall, reliable source), that when excavators (sp) first discovered and performed DNA tests on the remains of Nicholas II that his DNA didn't match that of the other Romanovs.  Testers tried to identify the bones once again, from a different portion of the remains, and found that his DNA did indeed match, making the remains that of Nicholas.  It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA. There's some long medical term, and, of course, I can't remember it, but if you've ever heard of it, I'm sure you'll know what I'm carrying on about.  With this condition, embryo's are conceived as twins, but fuse together, becoming one. (this is only one possibility) This rarely happens, making information virtually impossible to acquire.  

Do you think this...condition could be genetically inherited? If so, Nicholas could have passed it on to Anastasia--known to some (not me, as much as I'd like to admit it) as "Anna Anderson." The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)

Besides me, have any of you ever heard of Nicholas having this condition? Do you think he could have had it, or is it just another petty rumor?  Do you think it's a possibility that it if Nicholas carried 2 sets of DNA, his offspring could have?

If you're interested, I'll look for some more info about this "condition"

Amelie  :D

Amelie,

Nicholas II had heteroplasmy, which is just a simple, albeit rare, single base mutation which was inherited from his mother via mtDNA. I think you are confusing this with "chimera" which is a whole different ball game and has nothing to do with what Nicholas had... And no, there is no way Nicholas could have passed his heteroplasmy to Anastasia or any of his children because it was in his mtDNA and that is only passed through the mother... No, Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, because even if she were a "chimera", which of course she wasn't, her DNA still would have to have matched her parents' DNA, and it definitely did not... Someone already tried to propose this theory and failed... I can assure you, there is absolutely no chance what-so-ever that Anna Anderson was Anastasia, no matter what...

Helen
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Belochka on April 12, 2006, 02:20:20 AM
Quote


It was concluded that  Nicholas had a very rare condition where he carried 2 sets of DNA.  

I believe that you have confused "a very rare condition" and "2 sets of DNA" with something else.  Perhaps you may care to clarify what you mean exactly?

Quote

The scientists who performed the DNA tests on Anna Anderson's tissue sample could have err...gotten the wrong piece? (if that's the word)  

Every tissue sample that belonged to Mrs Anderson would always offer the same DNA profile. Each of those set of profiles will always be a negative match to the Romanov Family members.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 12, 2006, 09:57:19 AM
Lets not forget that Nicholas' heteroplasmy was matched exactly by the known remains of his brother George, which conclusively proved that the remains found were Nicholas.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ordino on April 12, 2006, 02:49:53 PM
Amelie, it would be very interesting if you could confirm the laboratory or person which/who made this DNA´s tests.
Thanks. Ordino :)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 12, 2006, 02:56:10 PM
Ordino,
That information is already posted on the DNA resources thread.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Amelie on April 12, 2006, 06:57:18 PM
I want people to know that I in no way believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia.  I was just opening up a new possibility that I didn't think had been debated yet. Though, according to Forum Admin, it already has.  Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up without knowing much about it.  Sorry... :) Anyway though, still quite interesting.


Quote
I believe that you have confused "a very rare condition" and "2 sets of DNA" with something else.  Perhaps you may care to clarify what you mean exactly?

Nicholas had a rare conditon-he carried two sets of DNA.   :-? Is that what you're asking?

Quote
Every tissue sample that belonged to Mrs Anderson would always offer the same DNA profile. Each of those set of profiles will always be a negative match to the Romanov Family members.

Like I have stated, I believe Anastasia died along with her family--and that Anna Anderson was/is still a charlatan.  Yet, I'm pretty sure I heard/read correctly when researchers took tests on the remains of Nicholas for the first time, the DNA didn't match.  Take it, I don't know much about this condition (obviously ::) ) but, from the sounds of it, it seems as if Nicholas had 1 set that matched the Romanovs, and another that didn't.  I need to read up more on this!!

And Ordino, as for the television program, it was a while ago and I don't remember.   However I also did read about Nicholas in a book entitled "The Quest for Anastasia".  It's a library book, and hard to get a handle on, but if you pick it up, I'm sure the author has given the name of the researchers.

And thanks Helen for the correct term---I would have never known given you had not told me!  :)

XOXO
Amelie
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 10:05:49 AM
I just found this interesting info on the "Lili Dehn" thread. Seems she wasn't a supporter of AA after all!

Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."


here is the 'source'

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

It's in Russian. Belochka's translation is posted above.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 13, 2006, 12:38:29 PM
Quote
I just found this interesting info on the "Lili Dehn" thread. Seems she wasn't a supporter of AA after all!

Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"???. ? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ??", - ??????? ??????? ??????, ?????? ??????????. ? ???, ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????????, ?????????????? ???? ?? ??????????? (??? ? ?????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."


here is the 'source'

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

It's in Russian. Belochka's translation is posted above.

Who quoted Lili Dehn?   Are these lines from a book?  If so, what is the name of the book and it's author?  To whom is she speaking?  What are the words around this sentence which is taken out of contents.  Giving us a URL which is in Russian gives those of us who do not read Russian nothing to which we can hang our hats, in other words,  we know only these words repeated here in English.


I am not indicating this isn't what Lili Dehn said.  Then, again,  I am not able to confirm this is what she said and feel comfortable in repeating this as a fact because I need more information in English, please.

Thanks

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 05:45:40 PM
Quote
Quote
I just found this interesting info on the "Lili Dehn" thread. Seems she wasn't a supporter of AA after all!

Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"???. ? ??????? ??????? ?? ????? ??", - ??????? ??????? ??????, ?????? ??????????. ? ???, ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????????, ?????????????? ???? ?? ??????????? (??? ? ?????????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."


here is the 'source'

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

It's in Russian. Belochka's translation is posted above.

Who quoted Lili Dehn?   Are these lines from a book?  If so, what is the name of the book and it's author?  To whom is she speaking?  What are the words around this sentence which is taken out of contents.  Giving us a URL which is in Russian gives those of us who do not read Russian nothing to which we can hang our hats, in other words,  we know only these words repeated here in English.


I am not indicating this isn't what Lili Dehn said.  Then, again,  I am not able to confirm this is what she said and feel comfortable in repeating this as a fact because I need more information in English, please.

Thanks

AGRBear

Don't you believe Belochka's translation? I trust her. You might try Babelfish translator.

Once again, Bear, while you continue to proclaim you don't beileve AA was AN ALL of your posts support the AA side. I would love to see a little diversity or I remain unconvinced. Actions speak louder than words. Even bolded ones.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 13, 2006, 05:51:58 PM
Here is Babelfish's translation, much less grammatically correct than Belochka's, but the same result:

Large shaking was for Lille the moment, when was conducted examination on the establishment of personality Anna Anderson, itself for the great princess to Anastasiy, the junior daughter of last tsar put out. there is no "No spontaneous recognition", i.e., ". I do not at first glance learn it ", said the friend of tsarina, after seeing impostor. The fact that Anna Anderson by no means not of Anastasiy, trezvomyslyashchaya Lille did not doubt (that also confirmed after death Anderson analysis DNA),

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ConstanceMarie on April 13, 2006, 08:11:08 PM
The source of the info in the article was Lili's daughter, as told to the author.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 13, 2006, 09:00:53 PM
From "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson":

"I had a shock," Lili confessed, "a real shock when first I saw her - a poor, pale and wrinkled little face!" She and Anastasia began to talk about Tsarskoe Selo, about rugs and curtains and the colors of the Empress's dresses. Then Anastasia asked if Lili remembered the night in March 1917 when Mamma and Maria had thrown on their cloaks and gone outdoors to plead for the loyalty of the troops.
"We were together," said Anastasia.
"Yes," said Lili.

(They went on to talk about several other things, and at the end...)

"Do not bother to tell me that she had read these things in books," said Lili Dehn. "I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive....."
"What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity."

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ConstanceMarie on April 13, 2006, 09:19:59 PM
Quote
From "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson":

"I had a shock," Lili confessed, "a real shock when first I saw her - a poor, pale and wrinkled little face!" She and Anastasia began to talk about Tsarskoe Selo, about rugs and curtains and the colors of the Empress's dresses. Then Anastasia asked if Lili remembered the night in March 1917 when Mamma and Maria had thrown on their cloaks and gone outdoors to plead for the loyalty of the troops.
"We were together," said Anastasia.
"Yes," said Lili.

How would Anastasia have known this, being bedridden and delirious with measles??? Maria??? She was sickest of all, almost died! I don't hardly think she got out of bed and ran outside! This memory does not make much sense! :P

Quote
(They went on to talk about several other things, and at the end...)

"Do not bother to tell me that she had read these things in books," said Lili Dehn. "I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive....."
"What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity."

Kind regards
Chat Noir


What is the source of this?


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 13, 2006, 10:35:48 PM
Baroness Sophie von Buxhöveden recalled that "It was bitterly cold, but late that night, Grand Duchess Marie who, with Anastasia, was only beginning to get sick, accompanied her mother on a review of the palace guard to plead for their loyalty. Alexandra simply threw a black fur cloak over her white nurse's dress and went out herself to speak to the soldiers.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 13, 2006, 10:40:27 PM
Quote

This is from Lili Dehn's affidavit at the court in Hamburg, the first one to be submitted, dated November 5, 1957.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 14, 2006, 07:05:32 AM
Quote
Baroness Sophie von Buxhöveden recalled that "It was bitterly cold, but late that night, Grand Duchess Marie who, with Anastasia, was only beginning to get sick, accompanied her mother on a review of the palace guard to plead for their loyalty. Alexandra simply threw a black fur cloak over her white nurse's dress and went out herself to speak to the soldiers.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Is this from her book? The one that was out in the early 1920's and available for AA to read?

This book by Buxhoevedon, the lying, 'traitorous' woman whom AA supporters now claim to not believe the credibility of anymore? Interesting how it's okay to believe one thing she said, but discount others for your own convenience? So was she a lying traitor or not???
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 14, 2006, 08:48:43 AM
Annie,

In regard to Dehn, Chat Noir is using an affadavit as a source, something which has legal status. Unless it can be demonstrated that Dehn renounced her recognition in a legal sense, I think the affadavit carries more weight. It is exactly the same point that can be made about Olga Alexandrovna and Gilliard when Andersen/Schanzkowska supporters talk about their "private" doubts. Neither ever swore that Andersen/Schanzkowska was Anastasia. Was the statement attributed to Dehn published during her lifetime? Is her daughter the only witness?

It also seems likely to me that Marie did accompany her mother that night. This was a more or less public action, and if Sophie B. had invented it, there would have been witnesses (members of the guard, for example, servants, Dehn, etc.) to contradict her. Unless Sophie was an utter liar, why make a detail like this up?



Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 14, 2006, 08:51:54 AM
The quote is not quite accurate, and is partially from "Life and Tragedy..." first published in 1928.  The day Alexandra went out to the troops was the night of March 13, and Maria was the only one not yet sick.  She got sick three days later. To me, the interesting part is that Anastasia was already ill and IN the sick room that night.  Also, the story of Alexandra's bravery was no secret "only revealed" ten years later by Buxhoevden's book

Here are Bux.'s own words (on March 11)"The Grand Duchess Anastasia soon joined her sisters in the sick room, thought Grand Duchess Maria remained well for a few days longer.  She was constantly with her mother, acting as her "legs" running messages..." (on March 13) "She (Alix) went at once to the children to tell them that manouevres were going on so they should not be frightened by the sound of firing. ... The Empress could not bear the idea of fighting on her account and begged that the troops defending the Palace should not in any way provoke their assailants, so not a single shot was fired by the Palace Guards. She threw a black fur cloak over her white nurse's dress and accompaniedby the Grand Duchess Maria and by Count Benckendorff, went out herself to speak to the soldiers of the Guards..."
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 14, 2006, 09:06:07 AM
Quote
Annie,

In regard to Dehn, Chat Noir is using an affadavit as a source, something which has legal status.

As you know, a lot of people said things with "legal status" that turned out not to be true in the case. Just because it's official doesn't make it true. People have also sworn to have seen Joe rob the gas station when it was proven later he was out of state and DNA proves Bill did it.

Also, Lili was very old at the time, and could have been senile, hence the two different versions. Also, after that much time, it isn't likely anyone could have recognized the real AN, much less a fake one. And, as you know, Louis, AA was not AN, so all the legal mumbo jumbo doesn't matter. Why must you encourage them with your backing?


Quote
It also seems likely to me that Marie did accompany her mother that night.

Even if she did, this was written in a book and was known by many. And, as we all know, AA was not AN, so she either read it in a book, or was told it by someone. Like Constance and FA have said, Anastasia was indeed sick in bed, and wouldn't have seen this anyway.

Quote
Unless Sophie was an utter liar, why make a detail like this up?
 

I don't think Sophie was a liar. I was being sarcastic at how the AA supporters here love to quote her when it suits them, then call her a liar and a traitor and disregard her when it doesn't.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2006, 11:10:28 AM
p. 287-288 of Peter Kurth's book:

Quote
From "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson":

"I had a shock," Lili confessed, "a real shock when first I saw her - a poor, pale and wrinkled little face!" She and Anastasia began to talk about Tsarskoe Selo, about rugs and curtains and the colors of the Empress's dresses. Then Anastasia asked if Lili remembered the night in March 1917 when Mamma and Maria had thrown on their cloaks and gone outdoors to plead for the loyalty of the troops.
"We were together," said Anastasia.
"Yes," said Lili.

(They went on to talk about several other things, and at the end...)

"Do not bother to tell me that she had read these things in books," said Lili Dehn. "I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive....."
"What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity."

Kind regards
Chat Noir


Quote
Quote
Quote

This is from Lili Dehn's affidavit at the court in Hamburg, the first one to be submitted, dated November 5, 1957.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Quote

...[in part]...

Annie,

In regard to Dehn, Chat Noir is using an affadavit as a source, something which has legal status. Unless it can be demonstrated that Dehn renounced her recognition in a legal sense, I think the affadavit carries more weight. ....
......

It also seems likely to me that Marie did accompany her mother that night. This was a more or less public action, and if Sophie B. had invented it, there would have been witnesses (members of the guard, for example, servants, Dehn, etc.) to contradict her. Unless Sophie was an utter liar, why make a detail like this up?



Simon

I agree with Simon.

And,  I'm still unclear as to the who the author was who quoted Lili Dehn's daughter and if it was found in a book, an article or an interview.

http://www.whoiswho.ru/russian/Password/papers/5r/den/st1.htm

And, thank you Belochka for the translation which I never questioned as being accurate.  

 
I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.  


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 14, 2006, 04:50:27 PM
Dear Annie:

I am not "backing" any attempt to prove that Anna Andersen/Franziska Schanzkowska was Anastasia Romanov. What I am doing is exactly what one should do in this debate, which is examine the sources. Lili Dehn made a mistake when she recognized her, but she did recognize her and was willing to swear to it. She died without the benefit of the DNA evidence. Surely you are not claiming that every single person who recognized Andersen/Schanzkowska was a liar or senile? That is the same thing as people who support her rejecting Gilliard's or Olga Alexandrovna's failure to recognize AA/FS because they were terrified of Marie Feodorovna.

Lili Dehn knew Anastasia, and while she may have been mistaken, it could have been an honest one. By the time she met Andersen/Schanzkowska, the woman had been playing the role of Anastasia for 35 years. Perhaps she had acquired information that made her convincing, or perhaps Lili wanted to believe it was Anastasia.

In any case, she identified her and swore to it.

We do not disagree about Andersen's real identity, Annie, and I don't think I need public corrections from you about my posts. This thread doesn't say that Andersen was Anastasia, it holds Andersen's "story" up for examination. The Dehn avowal of her identity is a fascinating aspect of it. In your zeal to make sure that we all know Andersen/Schanzkowska wasn't Anastasia, you are now attempting to derail perfectly legitimate discussion about Andersen/Schanzkowska herself.

And if you think Bear or Chat Noir need any encouragement from me to pursue their beliefs, you have obviously not been reading their posts.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 15, 2006, 09:30:05 AM
Quote
Dear Annie:

I am not "backing" any attempt to prove that Anna Andersen/Franziska Schanzkowska was Anastasia Romanov. What I am doing is exactly what one should do in this debate, which is examine the sources.

Then examine what I posted, the source claiming she DID NOT recognize her.

Quote
Lili Dehn made a mistake when she recognized her, but she did recognize her and was willing to swear to it. She died without the benefit of the DNA evidence.

She also said at a different time that she didn't, and this should not be ignored. In 1957, Lili was elderly, FS/AA was 61 years old, the real AN would have been 56. The chances of recognizing even the real AN as a much older woman she hadn't seen since she was 16, along with the fact that Lili herself was old, memory may have been faded or tainted by nostalgia and wishful thinking.

Quote
Surely you are not claiming that every single person who recognized Andersen/Schanzkowska was a liar or senile? That is the same thing as people who support her rejecting Gilliard's or Olga Alexandrovna's failure to recognize AA/FS because they were terrified of Marie Feodorovna.

I have brought that up, saying how could they blame Olga and the others and ignore the possibility that some supporters lied for money? After all, since we know she wasn't really AN, we know that those who denied her were the ones who were right and not liars. As for those who claimed her, I think it was a combination of things, faded memory causing incorrect association in their minds, (you don't have to be senile for that) some people just didn't see her or know her that well to really make an accurate ID, and yes, I do think some probably lied.



Quote
We do not disagree about Andersen's real identity, Annie, and I don't think I need public corrections from you about my posts. This thread doesn't say that Andersen was Anastasia, it holds Andersen's "story" up for examination.

I also think examining the story of AA/FS and how she did it is fascinating. While this may be your intention, your posts, especially the ones putting me and my posts down, are only used by the pro-AA people as fuel and hope, and this is not good for the final outcome of the case. In other words, 'do not feed the bears.' When people who habitually post in favor of AA read your post and say "I agree with Simon", it shows what purpose your posts are serving, and it's not the one you intended.

Quote
In your zeal to make sure that we all know Andersen/Schanzkowska wasn't Anastasia, you are now attempting to derail perfectly legitimate discussion about Andersen/Schanzkowska herself.

"Derailing?" By bringing up yet another source contradicting her claiming her? Regardless of if it was sworn or not, she said it, it's a different view, and something that needs to be considered if you, as you say you want to, examine the whole story.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 15, 2006, 10:12:29 AM
Quote
Quote
Dear Annie:

I am not "backing" any attempt to prove that Anna Andersen/Franziska Schanzkowska was Anastasia Romanov. What I am doing is exactly what one should do in this debate, which is examine the sources.

Then examine what I posted, the source claiming she DID NOT recognize her.

Quote
Lili Dehn made a mistake when she recognized her, but she did recognize her and was willing to swear to it. She died without the benefit of the DNA evidence.

She also said at a different time that she didn't, and this should not be ignored. In 1957, Lili was elderly, FS/AA was 61 years old, the real AN would have been 56. The chances of recognizing even the real AN as a much older woman she hadn't seen since she was 16, along with the fact that Lili herself was old, memory may have been faded or tainted by nostalgia and wishful thinking.

Quote
Surely you are not claiming that every single person who recognized Andersen/Schanzkowska was a liar or senile? That is the same thing as people who support her rejecting Gilliard's or Olga Alexandrovna's failure to recognize AA/FS because they were terrified of Marie Feodorovna.

I have brought that up, saying how could they blame Olga and the others and ignore the possibility that some supporters lied for money? After all, since we know she wasn't really AN, we know that those who denied her were the ones who were right and not liars. As for those who claimed her, I think it was a combination of things, faded memory causing incorrect association in their minds, (you don't have to be senile for that) some people just didn't see her or know her that well to really make an accurate ID, and yes, I do think some probably lied.



Quote
We do not disagree about Andersen's real identity, Annie, and I don't think I need public corrections from you about my posts. This thread doesn't say that Andersen was Anastasia, it holds Andersen's "story" up for examination.

I also think examining the story of AA/FS and how she did it is fascinating. While this may be your intention, your posts, especially the ones putting me and my posts down, are only used by the pro-AA people as fuel and hope, and this is not good for the final outcome of the case. In other words, 'do not feed the bears.' When people who habitually post in favor of AA read your post and say "I agree with Simon", it shows what purpose your posts are serving, and it's not the one you intended.

Quote
In your zeal to make sure that we all know Andersen/Schanzkowska wasn't Anastasia, you are now attempting to derail perfectly legitimate discussion about Andersen/Schanzkowska herself.

"Derailing?" By bringing up yet another source contradicting her claiming her? Regardless of if it was sworn or not, she said it, it's a different view, and something that needs to be considered if you, as you say you want to, examine the whole story.


Dear Annie,

I am trying to be polite here, but you aren't making it easy. Is it YOUR intention to provoke me? Because you are succeeding, if it is.

I did not dismiss what you brought up as a source. It too needs to be considered, thanks.

In return, you might want to take a look at Lili Dehn's deposition, because it too needs to be considered.

Occasionally Bear and I will agree on something. Deal with it or don't, it really doesn't matter. We do not agree upon the fundamental issue here, which is Andersen/Schanzkowska's identity. Moreover, as Bear would agree, for every one caveat I have raised about something you have said, there have been twenty directed by me at her posts. You are not a "victim", my post was not insulting, it simply pointed out the obvious --- that Dehn may have made an honest mistake in her recognition. Sheesh.

Stop making my posts sound like giving aid and comfort to the enemy. It lowers the tone of the discussion, and prevents us from actually listening to each other. I don't normally care for Chat Noir's tone --- something I have expressed publicly --- but I am not sure I care for yours much, either. In any event, I have no axe to grind with people who cling to the idea that Andersen/Schanzkowska was Anastasia unless they are rude or are falsifying evidence. Chat Noir was neither when he introduced the deposition.

I have made it a point not to criticize your usual lack of sources for your assertions, partly because you have been quite open about not seeing the need for them, and partly because I think that some --- not all --- of your points ARE basic common sense, and don't need to be authenticated. I didn't criticize either your quote or Belochka's translation (I don't speak or read Russian, so I am hardly in a position to do so). But you haven't proved that Lili Dehn didn't recognize Andersen/Schanzkowska --- you have proved that her daughter said she didn't. The primary evidence is the deposition. The deposition doesn't prove that Andersen/Schanzkowska was Anastasia; it just means that at the time she swore to it, Lili Dehn thought she was.

I assume that you get whatever you want from the Boards. That's fine, but please don't try to lecture others about what they should or should not be doing here. It's unpleasant, and in my own case unnecessary. I am perfectly capable of judging my own work.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on April 15, 2006, 11:11:24 AM
If we are going to be reduced to only quoteable 'sources' here, you narrow yourself down to "Riddle of Anastasia" and the DNA results. For most who believe the former, the latter is not good enough for them. So when they bring up the shoes, languages, denied sisters, 'how did she knows', who lied, etc., I have tried to supply very reasonable explainations for filling in the holes and missing puzzle pieces. We know what the answer was, but we can only speculate on how the charade was pulled off, since no one is ever going to leave a paper trail  or 'affadavits' swearing "I lied" "I fed AA info"- we just have to put two and two together- she wasn't AN, so how could it have been done? The reason AA supporters always harp on 'sources' is because they know there are no 'sources' to prove she was fed info, faked being AN, etc., and they can pull out a copy of "Riddle of Anastasia" or "File on the Tsar' and say 'on page 234 Joe Blow said her ears were the same!" and that is supposed to hold more weight than the DNA. Just because a book quoted it does not prove that Joe wasn't lying, or mistaken, paid off, misquoted, whatever. At this point I really do feel a bare bones common sense logical deduction investigation makes more sense than going back to page 1 'how did she know' 'someone told her' 'can you prove it?" OF COURSE NOT but we know they had to because she wasn't AN! But if you insist something that is documented is more important and valuable, you help the AA case and hurt the AA/FS case drastically. If this is your intention, keep it up. (I'm not just talking about Dehn, it's been a lot of things you've belittled me on concerning this issue in the past.) If you take away the option of reasoning and exploring possibilites that will never be in any book, you put us right back to the starting gate.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 15, 2006, 11:52:49 AM
I am responding to this publicly because you posted it publicly. I have never "belittled" you. Period. Not publicly, not privately. I have not always accepted everything you have said as correct. If this is what constitutes "belittling" in your world, life must be very difficult.

Please stop trying to turn this into something personal, especially since we agree that Andersen was Schanzkowska.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on April 15, 2006, 11:58:50 AM
Annie,
I think you are missing something very important about what Simon is trying to say. Allow me, maybe,to clear it up.

Simon AGREES with you that a deposition is NOT any more useful a document than anything else. In this case of Lili Dehn, it may be of no use because while Lili may have believed AA was AN, she was MISTAKEN.  Thus her deposition is of no relevant value.

I have seen numerous instances of depositions and affadavits being cited as "FACT", when they are just opinion or belief or simply incorrect for various reasons (ie: the deponant was confused, mistaken, misunderstood the question, or flat out lying).

A deposition is nothing more than someone's statement taken under proscribed legal conditions.  The use of a depostion is simply to introduce evidence into a legal proceeding in a controlled manner.  The genuine RELEVANCE or VERACITY of the deposition is of course subject to proof or disproof.  The contents of ANY deposition or Affadavit are not necesssarily "true" just because someone signed their name to the bottom of the page.  While many people want you to believe they ARE true sui generis, that is simply not the case.


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 15, 2006, 12:05:58 PM
Exactly. Furthermore, it would be interesting to know when the conversation with her daughter took place, i.e. prior-or-post deposition. Right now we have two conflicting pieces of evidence.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 15, 2006, 01:36:41 PM
Quote
Exactly. Furthermore, it would be interesting to know when the conversation with her daughter took place, i.e. prior-or-post deposition. Right now we have two conflicting pieces of evidence.

That's very true, and would indeed be helpful.

Logically thinking, I would imagine that if Lili Dehn's daughter said she didn't believe AA was AN PERIOD, that would have to be AFTER the deposition.  If Lili's lasting belief was that AA WAS NOT AN, then it would have to be after the deposition, right?

Obviously I'm not certain on that.  What publication does this quote come from? If we know when the publication was published, that should clear up the question.

As FA, Annie and Simon have all said, a deposition is just someone signing that what they are saying is to the best of their knowledge, or to their own belief, true.  It does not make it true, FACT.  It does not mean they are necessarily telling the truth, FACT.  People can be mistaken or lying, either one of which anyone who testified as believing AA to be AN must have been guilty of.  Testimonials cannot be used as evidence the way DNA can, because someone swearing they are telling the truth can still be lying.  Sadly not everyone is as truthful as we would like them to be, even under oath. ;)

Lili must have been mistaken, and she clearly came to realise that at some point, we don't know exactly when, because her daughter stated her mother didn't believe in AN.

However, what IS interesting and open to discussion is the fact that Lili stated AA couldn't have learnt from books what she knew.  What did she tell Lili about life at court? What made this information so top secret? Was Lili aware of the contact AA had with courtiers and friends of the IF? It would be fascinating to know what AA told Lili to make her believe in her story.  If we knew that, we could perhaps try and work out where AA got her information from.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 15, 2006, 08:01:11 PM
(From Lili Dehn's affidavit in Hamburg):

As I was going away and turned round once more to look at her, she said, "Good-bye, Good-bye," and the way she said it went straight to my heart, for it was exactly the way my Empress used to do it.....

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on April 15, 2006, 08:34:24 PM
Quote
(From Lili Dehn's affidavit in Hamburg):

As I was going away and turned round once more to look at her, she said, "Good-bye, Good-bye," and the way she said it went straight to my heart, for it was exactly the way my Empress used to do it.....

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Clearly, someone told her to do that. How pathetic to take advantage of an old woman's broken heart and play on her emotions. Everyone involved in Anderson's claim should be ashamed.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 16, 2006, 12:15:23 AM
Quote
Quote
(From Lili Dehn's affidavit in Hamburg):

As I was going away and turned round once more to look at her, she said, "Good-bye, Good-bye," and the way she said it went straight to my heart, for it was exactly the way my Empress used to do it.....

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Clearly, someone told her to do that. How pathetic to take advantage of an old woman's broken heart and play on her emotions. Everyone involved in Anderson's claim should be ashamed.

In truth, we don't know the motives of everyone involved in Anderson's claim. So, I think it's a bit judgemental to say everyone should be ashamed. The Schweitzers, Richard and Marina, have always seemed to me to be very genuine people and paid to have AA's samples tested. What in the world do they have to be ashamed over? More generally, we need to remember how shocking the murders were to Russian exiles and how badly some of them needed to believe that someone survived that murder room.

While there were likely those involved with the claim who had knowledge that Anderson was not the Grand Duchess, it's a mistake to paint everyone with the same brush.


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on April 16, 2006, 08:31:32 AM
I mean just anyone who did it intentionally to defraud and decieve.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Eddie_uk on April 20, 2006, 09:14:41 AM
Quote
I mean just anyone who did it intentionally to defraud and decieve.

I couldn't agree more, AA's behaviour was wicked to say the least! As if the Romaovs didn't have enough trouble in exile then she comes along!! To awful.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 20, 2006, 04:21:57 PM
Quote
Quote
I mean just anyone who did it intentionally to defraud and decieve.

I couldn't agree more, AA's behaviour was wicked to say the least! As if the Romaovs didn't have enough trouble in exile then she comes along!! To awful.

Again, I think you are making assumptions about AA. For starters, you are assuming that she knew she was not ANR and that it was her intention to deceive Anastasia Nicholievna's family. It is quite possible that she was not evil at all, but simply delusional. She may not have had any bad intentions toward the Romanovs.

It is really impossible, short of papers she might have left which clearly indicated she knew she was not Anastasia, to know exactly what her motives were, if indeed she had any. And, this is something that I think is a valid question for historical inquiry - why did she do it?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 20, 2006, 04:55:53 PM
I think she took on the identity for many reasons, some of which we will never know. But I think there are clues in her behavior that indicate that she liked attention at various points in her life --- Summers and Mangold seemed to have a sense that she was enjoying the interviews because it allowed her to say shocking things.

The most obvious reason to me is the attention. Here you are, an unknown woman, and suddenly you are thrust into a world about which you have only read. You become the subject of fierce debate. People defer to you. I know that her life was difficult, but it was far more exciting than if she had remained Franziska Schanzkowska, wasn't it? And we tend to look at her life as a continuum, as in she somehow knew that she would wind up as Anastasia Manahan in Charlottesville, after forty-five years of acrimony. But at the start she couldn't have known how it would end. People told her she was a Grand Duchess, and offered their support. More importantly, they maintained their support after she was rejected by key relatives like Olga Alexandrovna. There were probably many times when Andersen thought she would pull it off, or even came to believe that perhaps she was Anastasia --- and she was able to function in a delusional state.

As Massie said, whoever she was, it is certain that the woman was far more interesting than the person Anastasia Nicholaevna might have become.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on April 28, 2006, 10:44:34 PM
What were the motives of the enablers and how were they able to recreate all the scars so perfectly?

Did they go so far as to stab AA with a WWI era bayonet, or was the person who verified that scar mistaken (as I believe Detective Schmidt was about JonBenét's "stun gun wound")?

How did they convincingly fake eye color, languages spoken and written, down to the handwriting itself, memories shared by only a few people, mannerisms, and on and on and on?  It would seem to almost require intervention from the spirit world, such as a living person being possessed by one of the Grand Duchesses to the point of recreating physical characteristics.  (And what would HER motive be?  If they were all dead--wouldn't she want to be with her royal sisters on the other side rather than possessing some Polish person?)  Did any of FS's family ever recognize or try to claim AA, were they in on it, too (trying to help her fake a claim for fame or inheritance), or did they know it was her and figure "good riddance" (like the family of the famous amnesiac pianist)?  There's a book here!  (At LEAST one!)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 29, 2006, 01:21:58 AM
Again, the purported bayonet wound isn't evidence about Anastasia, but about Andersen. At some point she received scars. So did a lot of people. Since we don't have a record of the wounds received by Anastasia Nicholaevna, it is only conjecture to say that the Andersen scars are proof of her identity as the Grand Duchess.

Eye color, etc., are interesting, but of course an imposter who bore no physical resemblance to the impersonated would be discredited immediately. And Andersen was not recognized as Anastasia by many people that had known the real girl well.

This is why a verifiable determination is so important when dealing with this kind of case (and I am struck more and more by how common this has been in history). The DNA testing offers the most objective standard by which her claim can be judged.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on April 29, 2006, 05:01:00 AM
Quote
What were the motives of the enablers and how were they able to recreate all the scars so perfectly?

Did they go so far as to stab AA with a WWI era bayonet, or was the person who verified that scar mistaken (as I believe Detective Schmidt was about JonBenét's "stun gun wound")?

How did they convincingly fake eye color, languages spoken and written, down to the handwriting itself, memories shared by only a few people, mannerisms, and on and on and on?  It would seem to almost require intervention from the spirit world, such as a living person being possessed by one of the Grand Duchesses to the point of recreating physical characteristics.  (And what would HER motive be?  If they were all dead--wouldn't she want to be with her royal sisters on the other side rather than possessing some Polish person?)  Did any of FS's family ever recognize or try to claim AA, were they in on it, too (trying to help her fake a claim for fame or inheritance), or did they know it was her and figure "good riddance" (like the family of the famous amnesiac pianist)?  There's a book here!  (At LEAST one!)


As usual Simon has some excellent points and I don't need to repeat them.

The fact that you're talking about spirit possession makes me hope that you're a troll.  If not, I think you're slightly mad.

When it comes down to it, Anna Anderson didn't really know anything remarkable that she couldn't have picked up from books.  Considering those closest to the real Anastasia were dead or didn't meet her, there was no one to verify her claims anyway.

Anna Anderson was an imposter, she was not Anastasia, because Anastasia died with her family in 1918.  She looked nothing like Anastasia, she acted nothing like Anastasia, and she failed to convince those closest to the family who were left alive that she was Anastasia.  What more proof do you need? Do you think your own grandmother would refuse to believe in you for non existent money?

No we don't definitely have a body.  But we have DNA that proves Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, and we have Yurovsky and other's statements that two bodies were burned and buried separately.  There are two bodies missing, so Yurovsky's statement has been proved correct; he had no reason to make excuses for two bodies being outside of the grave if this wasn't true, because the grave was designed never to be found.  Yurovksy had no reason to believe that anyone would ever dig up the bones or DNA test them; DNA testing wasn't even invented at the time.  So why would he bother saying two bodies were buried separately if that wasn't the truth? Think about it logically.

These two bodies may never be found, which means the case will never be closed once and for all, but even if the bodes were found, it wouldn't be, because some people are never satisfied with the boring truth.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on April 29, 2006, 05:15:19 AM
If AA was FS, there are things about FS even her family seems not to have known.  For instance, AA had given birth to a child, when FS was not known to have had one.  Obviously, she was running from something.   :-?  And wouldn't someone trying to establish AA as FS produce some of FS's relatives to swear they recognized her?  I'm not saying this has never turned up in any of the documentation, but why don't we hear more about it?

To develop dissociative disorder, denial, or partial memory loss to escape unpleasant life events is one thing, and of course to identify with a famous person is extremely common, especially among those who feel oppressed in their own lives.  Look at the huge outpourings over the deaths of Princess Diana and JFK, Jr.!  But to be able to assume and take on the persona of that person to the point of at least casting serious doubt into the minds of people acquainted with the real person is a step beyond, hinting at extraordinary abilities.

And how much, after many decades, did Anna Anderson herself come to believe she was Anastasia?  It wasn't as if she exactly thrived on eliciting sympathy by bending people's ears with a sob story.  Unlike Mary Todd Lincoln--who no one disputed was present at the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, but people didn't appreciate hearing all the gory details she insisted on relating.  (Survivors of the massacre I studied were the same way and their detailed recollections caused some real trauma among their relatives.)  Yet Anastasia Manahan was, shall we say, less than welcoming.  Look at the way she acted when first introduced to Peter Kurth, who was fascinated with her--much like a real PTSD victim extremely unwilling to rehash a lot of painful events!  Jack Manahan was her front and protector in this regard--people would come visiting expecting to hear her own story in her own words and be regaled by him raving on about his personal theories on various subjects.  If she was seeking attention at first, it sounds as if by the "Anastasia Manahan" phase she had greatly tired of it.

Not to mention, AA, whether intentionally or not, maligned the real Anastasia by presenting herself as her and acting as she did--she was not exactly easy to live with.   :-/
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on April 29, 2006, 11:19:23 AM
Quote
 She looked nothing like Anastasia, she acted nothing like Anastasia, and she failed to convince those closest to the family who were left alive that she was Anastasia.  

Not quite right. 3 professional studies of photos of AA and AF came to the conclusion that they were one and the same person, so there must have been some likeness. And Lili Dehn, who was very close to the family, was convinced that AA was AF.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on April 29, 2006, 11:38:15 AM
I agree. There must have been some likeness. I don't really see it myself, but obviously others --- including at least some people who knew Anastasia --- did.

That being a given, aren't these identifications countered by people who had known the girl well --- and I am thinking of Gilliard and Olga Alexandrovna --- who were unable to recognize her? It then becomes a case of impeaching the witnesses, and the Dehn recognition is a good example. If you scroll back a couple of pages on this very thread, you will discover a reasonably bitter little argument about whether Dehn's affadavit stands in light of additional testimony. And I hate to sound plaintive, but has anyone been able to uncover when Dehn's daughter says her mother repudiated Andersen, before or after the German affadavit?

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 29, 2006, 01:27:41 PM
Just a few short questions please if i may ? Are you a psychologist, or a psychiatrist ? How long have you studied cases of PTSD, and how many cases for over what period of time ? Thank you in advance ?

Tatiana+


Quote
If AA was FS, there are things about FS even her family seems not to have known.  For instance, AA had given birth to a child, when FS was not known to have had one.  Obviously, she was running from something.   :-?  And wouldn't someone trying to establish AA as FS produce some of FS's relatives to swear they recognized her?  I'm not saying this has never turned up in any of the documentation, but why don't we hear more about it?

To develop dissociative disorder, denial, or partial memory loss to escape unpleasant life events is one thing, and of course to identify with a famous person is extremely common, especially among those who feel oppressed in their own lives.  Look at the huge outpourings over the deaths of Princess Diana and JFK, Jr.!  But to be able to assume and take on the persona of that person to the point of at least casting serious doubt into the minds of people acquainted with the real person is a step beyond, hinting at extraordinary abilities.

And how much, after many decades, did Anna Anderson herself come to believe she was Anastasia?  It wasn't as if she exactly thrived on eliciting sympathy by bending people's ears with a sob story.  Unlike Mary Todd Lincoln--who no one disputed was present at the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, but people didn't appreciate hearing all the gory details she insisted on relating.  (Survivors of the massacre I studied were the same way and their detailed recollections caused some real trauma among their relatives.)  Yet Anastasia Manahan was, shall we say, less than welcoming.  Look at the way she acted when first introduced to Peter Kurth, who was fascinated with her--much like a real PTSD victim extremely unwilling to rehash a lot of painful events!  Jack Manahan was her front and protector in this regard--people would come visiting expecting to hear her own story in her own words and be regaled by him raving on about his personal theories on various subjects.  If she was seeking attention at first, it sounds as if by the "Anastasia Manahan" phase she had greatly tired of it.

Not to mention, AA, whether intentionally or not, maligned the real Anastasia by presenting herself as her and acting as she did--she was not exactly easy to live with.   :-/
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on April 29, 2006, 02:05:52 PM
I have no psychology degree nor background in any serious study of PTSD, nor do I know Peter Kurth personally.  I just know from things he said about how AA acted to him, and how other people said she acted to them, she seems to have had some real avoidance issues about talking about unpleasant details.  She didn't just volunteer them, and took a long time to warm up to someone.  If you like, you can take this as fear of being discovered in an inconsistent or false story, or just being tired of the subject, rather than someone who had survived the actual events in question.  It's commonly known, and you don't need to be an expert, that people who have survived one traumatic experience can identify strongly with another.  If their own traumatic experience was upsetting enough, they might even replace it with the other.  There are true-life cases of people inventing huge whoppers about things they had been through.  In the end, it doesn't mean they hadn't suffered trauma--most likely they had, to invent such terrible stories--it just wasn't what they claimed it was--and certainly the story of Anastasia surviving would elicit more sympathy and interest than a story of FS either screwing up her own life or someone else screwing it up for her.

I'm just trying to be as open as possible.  People who knew Anastasia said AA had not only scars consistent with those which would have been inflicted with the sort of bayonet used to attack Anastasia, but also scars Anastasia was KNOWN to have had previously, from medical procedures and accidents.  AA would have had to already have such scars by incredible coincidence, or someone intentionally inflicted them.  Of course, the guy claiming to be John Wilkes Booth also had such scars and he wasn't him.  Also AA was familiar with very trivial details which had never appeared in any published form and were known only to Anastasia and one or two other people.  This made me mention spirit possession.  By concentrating so obsessively on Anastasia, did AA begin to channel the real Anastasia from the other side?  Or is there a more conventional explanation, such as that the real Anastasia shared those memories with someone she knew while alive, who then fed them back to AA, convincing the other people involved who didn't know she had shared these stories, or at least casting real doubt in their minds?

With no fortune, what motivation would the suspects (Gleb Botkin being chief among them) have for such a charade?  Did they at least believe in the existence of a fortune enough to support a false claimant?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on April 29, 2006, 02:33:40 PM
[size=9]Thank you for your response. Allow me to stat this: PTSD in some cases can be very complex, and believe it or not, some ptsd patients, will not talk about their experiences for years upon end. They do not 'warm up' to others quickly, and can be quite suspicious of others, and or their motives. In cases where issues have been exceeded in brutality, some prefer never to again speak about it, or cannot remember the whole of their experiences. So, avoidance is a given for most suffering ptsd. The fear comes from the experience suffered, NOT that it is anything of a false experience. Some can't ever believe they have been through the experiences they have suffered through, and wonder why they still live.

Yes, some may identify with another's experience, but remember, each individual's experience is that person's pain and suffering, and so one cannot fully identify the "experiences" of another or how one really feels. For most, 'sympathy' is not what that human heart is looking for, in fact, that usually does not enter into the equate of their issues.  One's pain, or loss, is never ever equal to another. Each has their own pain, and concerns consciencely, and of the unconsconscience. People who 'invent' whopper stories are just that, inventive story tellers.

Real PTSD and or dissociative disorders cannot be faked. So please, be careful when making statements as such. You can't use the statement, "everyone knows", because one has to study very carefully, and work with patients for a number of years before one can make an appropriate and valid diagnosis. In this case you have not accurately stated this, and I just felt that something should be stated correctly, so readers would not hypothosize as what you have stated to date. Thanks for allowing me to express a bit on the issue of ptsd.

Tatiana+[/size]

Quote
I have no psychology degree nor background in any serious study of PTSD, nor do I know Peter Kurth personally.  I just know from things he said about how AA acted to him, and how other people said she acted to them, she seems to have had some real avoidance issues about talking about unpleasant details.  She didn't just volunteer them, and took a long time to warm up to someone.  If you like, you can take this as fear of being discovered in an inconsistent or false story, or just being tired of the subject, rather than someone who had survived the actual events in question.  It's commonly known, and you don't need to be an expert, that people who have survived one traumatic experience can identify strongly with another.  If their own traumatic experience was upsetting enough, they might even replace it with the other.  There are true-life cases of people inventing huge whoppers about things they had been through.  In the end, it doesn't mean they hadn't suffered trauma--most likely they had, to invent such terrible stories--it just wasn't what they claimed it was--and certainly the story of Anastasia surviving would elicit more sympathy and interest than a story of FS either screwing up her own life or someone else screwing it up for her.

I'm just trying to be as open as possible.  People who knew Anastasia said AA had not only scars consistent with those which would have been inflicted with the sort of bayonet used to attack Anastasia, but also scars Anastasia was KNOWN to have had previously, from medical procedures and accidents.  AA would have had to already have such scars by incredible coincidence, or someone intentionally inflicted them.  Of course, the guy claiming to be John Wilkes Booth also had such scars and he wasn't him.  Also AA was familiar with very trivial details which had never appeared in any published form and were known only to Anastasia and one or two other people.  This made me mention spirit possession.  By concentrating so obsessively on Anastasia, did AA begin to channel the real Anastasia from the other side?  Or is there a more conventional explanation, such as that the real Anastasia shared those memories with someone she knew while alive, who then fed them back to AA, convincing the other people involved who didn't know she had shared these stories, or at least casting real doubt in their minds?

With no fortune, what motivation would the suspects (Gleb Botkin being chief among them) have for such a charade?  Did they at least believe in the existence of a fortune enough to support a false claimant?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on April 29, 2006, 02:36:17 PM
How do you know that FS didn't secretly have a child, miscarriage or abortion and not tell anyone? Unmarried girls in trouble were frowned upon back then so this is very possible she was too embarrassed and hid the truth.

I don't think AA/FS was channeling the real Anastasia or she would have gotten much more right than she did.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on April 29, 2006, 05:39:50 PM
Quote
How do you know that FS didn't secretly have a child, miscarriage or abortion and not tell anyone? Unmarried girls in trouble were frowned upon back then so this is very possible she was too embarrassed and hid the truth.

Well, that's what I was saying.  Presenting both sides of the issue, if AA was FS, and knew that examination would show she had given birth to at least one child, she had to invent a story as to why AN would have had a child.  According to Peter Kurth, FS was quite promiscuous and AA was not at all http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm so either 1)  AA was not FS, or 2) AA was FS and abandoned her promiscuous ways after one or more bad experiences.  That was what I meant by "screwed up her own life or someone screwed it up for her."  Kurth also touches on some of the things I asked regarding FS's family--that they showed little interest in claiming AA as FS.  (Things that would be interesting to know include how long was FS missing and would it be long enough to have a child her family didn't know about?  Of course perhaps some knew, and just didn't talk about it.)

Quote
I don't think AA/FS was channeling the real Anastasia or she would have gotten much more right than she did.

How did she get as much right as she did?  How did a person so disturbed as to be repeatedly hospitalized to the point of losing or dissociating with part of her own memory pick up so many details of the life of another person with whom she had little or nothing in common but some resemblance in looks--not only things as difficult as language, customs, and background but little details of things which had happened to AN?  A cliché of mental illness used to be "supposing one is someone famous or important" but that's not an accurate characterization of all mental illness and even in cases where people are delusional they are certainly not convincing enough to be believed.  (Supposedly actress Susan Richardson believed the "real Susan" was killed and tended her "grave" in the backyard--but no one believes Susan is actually dead--they believe she's wacko.)  Why did so many credible witnesses support AA for so many years?

As for the resemblance--to me AA looks as much like FS as like AN, but more like AN.  FS was a poor person with no money.  Would someone have been interested enough to invest in plastic surgery for an imposter to help her further resemble who she claimed to be?

Discounting spirit intervention (that is, either the spirit of AN or some mischievous entity with access to information not vouchsafed by mortal means channeling information to AA) it is necessary to examine the stories of people who said she told them something that occurred between AN and them "not revealed in any published source."

First, one would have to prove these events WERE published, either with or without the knowledge of the witnesses, and that AA had access to the publications.  If this is absolutely unprovable, either:

A)  There were no other witnesses--that is, in cases such as the paper ball-throwing incident which involved Anastasia, Tatiana, and the paper-ball throwee as it were, either the information came from the spirits of Anastasia, Tatiana, or some other spirit with access to the information and means to transmit it to AA, or, there were other witnesses--the incident was either reported or repeated without knowledge of the witness (that is, either seen by someone else who repeated it, or mentioned by the girls to someone before their deaths who had means to repeat it so it could be transmitted to AA), or

B)  The witness was fabricating or lying to bolster AA's false claims.

I'm not saying I am writing a book about this--let's be clear about it--I'M NOT--just saying such things should be well examined by anyone considering writing such a book.  Peter Kurth has made it pretty clear he has no interest in a book debunking AA as he believes her claims, but someone with his level of interest needs to examine this further no matter what the conclusions may be.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on April 29, 2006, 06:14:39 PM
Quote


Well, that's what I was saying.  Presenting both sides of the issue, if AA was FS, and knew that examination would show she had given birth to at least one child, she had to invent a story as to why AN would have had a child.

This makes a lot of sense! If FS was AA and had a secret child she would have to make up a story to cover it so she made up the story of the baby in the orphanage. Will we never know what really happened to that poor baby?

Quote
 According to Peter Kurth, FS was quite promiscuous and AA was not at all http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm so either 1)  AA was not FS, or 2) AA was FS and abandoned her promiscuous ways after one or more bad experiences.  That was what I meant by "screwed up her own life or someone screwed it up for her."

That makes sense too, bad experiences may have scared her away from it. Especially if she had a runin wiht that Grossman guy almost killing her!


 
Quote
Kurth also touches on some of the things I asked regarding FS's family--that they showed little interest in claiming AA as FS.  

I don't blame them, she was more of a burden and a liability that would cost them and interfere in their lives and be a problem for years. Like a ball and chain. They didn't want to be bothered!

Quote
(Things that would be interesting to know include how long was FS missing and would it be long enough to have a child her family didn't know about?  Of course perhaps some knew, and just didn't talk about it.)

This makes sense too! Illegit babies were very hushhush in those times! No girl wanted to admit to having one and her family would be shamed and lie about it even if they knew.


Quote
How did she get as much right as she did?  How did a person so disturbed as to be repeatedly hospitalized to the point of losing or dissociating with part of her own memory pick up so many details of the life of another person with whom she had little or nothing in common but some resemblance in looks--not only things as difficult as language, customs, and background but little details of things which had happened to AN?  A cliché of mental illness used to be "supposing one is someone famous or important" but that's not an accurate characterization of all mental illness and even in cases where people are delusional they are certainly not convincing enough to be believed.

It could be that some people who knew the family were helping her. It could be some people believed because they wanted to think someone survived.

Quote
 (Supposedly actress Susan Richardson believed the "real Susan" was killed and tended her "grave" in the backyard--but no one believes Susan is actually dead--they believe she's wacko.)  

Oh my goodness, that is strange! Are you serious?!

Quote
As for the resemblance--to me AA looks as much like FS as like AN, but more like AN.  FS was a poor person with no money.  Would someone have been interested enough to invest in plastic surgery for an imposter to help her further resemble who she claimed to be?

I don't think they had good enough plastic surgery in those days. I also don't think AA looks that much like AN, she was counting on people not remembering AN very well or only seeing her as a little kid once and thinking she might have changed.

Quote
Discounting spirit intervention (that is, either the spirit of AN or some mischievous entity with access to information not vouchsafed by mortal means channeling information to AA) it is necessary to examine the stories of people who said she told them something that occurred between AN and them "not revealed in any published source."


First, one would have to prove these events WERE published, either with or without the knowledge of the witnesses, and that AA had access to the publications.  If this is absolutely unprovable, either:

A)  There were no other witnesses--that is, in cases such as the paper ball-throwing incident which involved Anastasia, Tatiana, and the paper-ball throwee as it were, either the information came from the spirits of Anastasia, Tatiana, or some other spirit with access to the information and means to transmit it to AA, or, there were other witnesses--the incident was either reported or repeated without knowledge of the witness (that is, either seen by someone else who repeated it, or mentioned by the girls to someone before their deaths who had means to repeat it so it could be transmitted to AA), or

B)  The witness was fabricating or lying to bolster AA's false claims.

I'm not saying I am writing a book about this--let's be clear about it--I'M NOT--just saying such things should be well examined by anyone considering writing such a book.  Peter Kurth has made it pretty clear he has no interest in a book debunking AA as he believes her claims, but someone with his level of interest needs to examine this further no matter what the conclusions may be.

We do need to find out if any of these things can even be verified by a person who was there and survived.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on April 29, 2006, 06:37:19 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
 (Supposedly actress Susan Richardson believed the "real Susan" was killed and tended her "grave" in the backyard--but no one believes Susan is actually dead--they believe she's wacko.)  

Oh my goodness, that is strange! Are you serious?!

I can't find a source right now, but yes, Susan Richardson believed some strange things, including that she had been kidnapped and forced to participate in a film in North Korea which doesn't seem to have been documented, and then that the "real Susan" was killed due to some knowledge about the fixing of the Olympic games, and her grave was in the backyard.  I believe this was in the "National Enquirer," which was on good terms with Dick van Patten due to its efforts in trying to apprehend a man impersonating one of van Patten's sons.  By the way, this man approached ONLY people who did not know the van Pattens and was not believed by ANYONE who did know them.

These stories are just given as examples that not only are there impostors out there who are easily dismissed, but real people with good friends who believe some strange things in delusional states.  Their friends may believe in them without believing everything they say.  I don't have a followup on Susan so she may or may not be better now.  Anna Anderson is not so easily dismissed and continued to assert she was Anastasia for decades--not just during a "bad spell" in the "lockup."
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 01, 2006, 09:12:26 AM
Yes, anastasiaclaimant WAS CalebGmoney/Bigbee et al. Once again, someone banned for behavior sneaks back in without permission. Understand this VERY public pronouncment of a fundemental Forum rule:
If you sneak back in while suspended without prior permission from me, you are PERMANENTLY and forever banned from this Forum. This isn't unreasonable or unclear.

This is the reason Rsskiya was permanently banned, not for conduct in the forum, but rather sneaking in four more times under fake names. Same thing for Olga/DarthOlga...who snuck in three times.

This is the Fourth time for CalebGmoney. [highlight]READ THIS CLEARLY: BECAUSE YOU SHOW TOTAL DISRESPECT FOR ME AND THIS FORUM BY SNEAKING IN UNDER FAKE NAMES AFTER BEING SUSPENEDED AND NOW BANNED YOU ARE NEVER WELCOME HERE AGAIN. EVER. GOODBYE[/highlight]. Anything you ever post in this Forum from here on out will be deleted immediately and without warning.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 02, 2006, 04:41:59 AM
"Ra-Ra Rasputin" has a point.

If it's "absolutely proven" that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, can it be "absolutely proven" that she was Franziska Schanzkowska?  If so, how did she manage to change distinguishing physical features not only of scars (which might be possible to fake with the right accomplices) but hair color, eye color, height, and shoe size, for starters, not to mention changing physical appearance enough so as not to be recognized in circles where FS was well-known, let alone learning languages and other details she had no business knowing?  There is a conspiracy of SOME KIND here DEFINITELY--the question is just WHO did WHAT?  Were people who knew FS well lying or mistaken, or was Anna Anderson really not FS either?  (The shoe size, of course, can be disputed, as Amelia Earhart wore more than one size of shoe as well.  Perhaps there's a connection.)

As has been alledged with OJ, (another case in which shoes figured--and he denied owning Bruno Magli shoes which photographs clearly show he wore) could this have been a case of "framing the guilty"?  Could someone have switched DNA matching the Schanzkowska family with Anna Anderson's, therefore obscuring the fact that she didn't match the Romanov OR Schanzkowska families?  I'd still like to see expert photo analysis of Anna Anderson and an unretouched Franziska Schanzkowska.  Could the differences be accounted for by different angle, lighting, and other factors such as aging or losing weight, or would that much change in appearance have to be the result of plastic surgery?

I'm about half-convinced she wasn't Anastasia, at one point believed she'd be happier being Anastasia, and had to stick with it though she often wasn't happy with her assumed identity either.  There's at least one book in this!  It could be titled "If the Shoe Fits--Some Sorta Strange Cinderella Story"!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 02, 2006, 05:10:10 AM
Quote
If it's "absolutely proven" that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, can it be "absolutely proven" that she was Franziska Schanzkowska?

Yes.  If you accept that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia based on the DNA results, you must also accept that Anna Anderson WAS Franziska Shankowksa based on the DNA results. What would be the purpose in faking one set of DNA and not the other? If you believe in the scientific veracity of the DNA, the logical conclusion is that it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that AA was NOT AN, she was FS.

Quote
How did she manage to change distinguishing physical features not only of scars (which might be possible to fake with the right accomplices) but hair color, eye color, height, and shoe size, for starters, not to mention changing physical appearance enough so as not to be recognized in circles where FS was well-known, let alone learning languages and other details she had no business knowing?

Ok, let's go through this slowly.
1. Franziska Shankowska did not need to 'fake' scars.  The real Anastasia that we know existed (ie not a post cellar Anastasia, so we have to discount any wounds she may or may not have received in the cellar) had a scar on her finger, on her shoulder and on her forehead. I also have scars in all three of those places. Anastasia had common, not particularly noticeable scars that most people have. And to be honest, I doubt anyone other than her nursemaid and her parents ever saw Anastasia naked anyway, so how anyone would know enough about Anastasia's body to say categorically 'this scar matches exactly' about scars on AA's body is beyond me.  

2. We KNOW Franziska Shankowska was injured in a grenade accident. A grenade exploded right next to her, and yet some people will have us believe that she suffered no injuries whatsoever.  Mmmhmmm. Her scars are consistent with a wounding by grenade, and because WE HAVE NO IDEA as to what scars Anastasia would have had left if she had survived the massacre, we cannot possibly say that AA's scars matched that. It's IMPOSSIBLE to claim that.

3. So they had the same hair colour; mousy brown hair is hardly uncommon. Neither are blue eyes.  Neither is having size 5 feet or whatever when you're of a certain height. Three of my friends are 5 foot, they all have the same size feet. It's not surprising that a woman of similar stature to AN had the same size feet as her. And it's also not surprising that she had bunions; lots of people do. I have!
Also, we do not know what height or shoe size Anastasia was at the time she died, so this is all a moot point anyway.  

4. AA had her teeth removed, lost a lot of weight and suffered repeated, serious illnesses. It is unsurprising that she changed in appearance so as to be unrecognisable by some former acquaintances.   Having teeth removed especially would have changed the structure of her lower face. FS's siblings had too much to lose to accept their sister, and we have evidence that both Felix and Gertrude both believed that AA was indeed their sister despite what they said. No, not signed testimony, but you know what? People testified that AA was AN and they were proved wrong. So signed testimony doesn't really come into play here if we're talking about reliability.

5. Once again, FS was not an illiterate farm girl. She spoke some English, German and Polish.  We know this.  She did not speak reliably in Russian or English until she had time to pick it up or be taught it. People who claimed she spoke these languages before that time did not speak them, so how would they know whether she was speaking Russian and not Polish, say?

6. What AA knew was not remarkable, and a lot of it was inaccurate.  What's more, what she did say she knew, there was no one left alive to verify it or not.  If she said 'When we were alone, Mama used to tell me this that and the other', who can say whether that was right or not? Alexandra couldn't, because she was dead! AA knew standard stuff from magazines, and whatever else she said was either wrong or couldn't be verified.


Look, there is no conspiracy theory here.  Why would there be a need for one?

Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaevna.  She was Franziska Shankowska.

If someone can PLEASE tell me what the hell would be the POINT in faking the FS test results, I'll be all ears.  Would it have mattered if she wasn't FS? No! So why would they bother faking those? They already knew she wasn't Anastasia, so it didn't really matter who she really was.

There is no motive here for a conspiracy theory, and this is why I don't understand the constant searching for one.  What has ANYONE gained by the DNA results?

I think really we should let Anastasia rest in peace.  She died a violent death, and she is remembered largely for how some crank pretended to be her for the best part of the 20th century.  I think that's really sad.  Anastasia should be remembered for who she WAS, and not as some big conspiracy theory.    I think she deserves that at least.  Don't you?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 02, 2006, 09:04:55 AM
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2. We KNOW Franziska Shankowska was injured in a grenade accident. A grenade exploded right next to her, and yet some people will have us believe that she suffered no injuries whatsoever.  Mmmhmmm. Her scars are consistent with a wounding by grenade, and because WE HAVE NO IDEA as to what scars Anastasia would have had left if she had survived the massacre, we cannot possibly say that AA's scars matched that. It's IMPOSSIBLE to claim that.

According to her medical reports and her sister Gertrude, Franziska was only slightly hurt in the explosion and had no scars on her body from it.

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3. So they had the same hair colour; mousy brown hair is hardly uncommon. Neither are blue eyes.  Neither is having size 5 feet or whatever when you're of a certain height. Three of my friends are 5 foot, they all have the same size feet. It's not surprising that a woman of similar stature to AN had the same size feet as her. And it's also not surprising that she had bunions; lots of people do. I have!

AA had a serious case of Hallux Valgus, so pronounced that Professor Rudnev said it had to have been present at birth.

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5. Once again, FS was not an illiterate farm girl. She spoke some English, German and Polish.  We know this.  She did not speak reliably in Russian or English until she had time to pick it up or be taught it. People who claimed she spoke these languages before that time did not speak them, so how would they know whether she was speaking Russian and not Polish, say?
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According to her brother Felix, she spoke some Polish and good German and did not understand Russian. I am interested in your source as to her speaking some English.
 
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6. What AA knew was not remarkable, and a lot of it was inaccurate.
Quote
 

Could you please give me some examples of her many inaccuracies?
Thank you.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 02, 2006, 09:51:17 AM
I've been trying to stay out of here, but I have to say, BRAVO Rachel! (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c274/avarbelethien/Smilies/bow.gif) Excellent commentary, you should write a book! (Then I could quote it as
a 'source'!) ;)


Wow, Chatnoir, I see you can't work the quote tags very well here either! Just like that guy plk on the other forum! You have more than just your devotion to AA in common! ;D

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According to her medical reports and her sister Gertrude, Franziska was only slightly hurt in the explosion and had no scars on her body from it.

Are these the alleged 'new' records discovered recently? Well, the jury is still out on those, we have no proof other than one person's word of mouth, and as you all always say, that's no source :D

As for Gertrude, we can't completely take that as proof either, since she and the other siblings had denied FS was their sister, they were afraid of getting caught so they would have to 'cover their butts' by not saying anything that might lead to her being discovered as AA. As Ra Ra mentioned, they had nothing to gain and everything to lose (as did she) by them claiming her. Would you claim YOUR sister in that situation? I know my siblings would not claim me! You know, the old 'never seen her before in my life.' :D


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AA had a serious case of Hallux Valgus, so pronounced that Professor Rudnev said it had to have been present at birth.

At birth? Hmm, by every account, Anastasia was a very active and athletic child, a tomboy even, swinging from trees, running, playing tennis, kind of hard to do with crippled up feet! Besides, I don't believe 'bunyons' are a birth defect, they develop later. Even if she did develop it later, this is hardly a rare or unique condition. A person who had been on her feet a lot (such as a factory worker) could also develop the problem!


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Could you please give me some examples of her many inaccuracies?
Thank you.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

1. The carriage finger incident- it was Maria on a train, not Anastasia in a carriage. (of course those who brand Olga A. a liar aren't going to accept this, since she and her book are the source of this)

2. The misdescription of the 'malachite' room. She knew it was there, and it was secret, but gave details of its interior wrong.

There are others I have seen but I don't have the specifics. All I know is, the REAL AN would have known a lot more! Even in the days when I believed her, I always thought she must have had partial amnesia not to remember more than she did! Now I see what happened, someone with intimiate but limited knowledge of the palace and the family fed her the info, and they got it partly wrong.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 02, 2006, 10:21:02 AM
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"Ra-Ra Rasputin" has a point.

She always does!

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If it's "absolutely proven" that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, can it be "absolutely proven" that she was Franziska Schanzkowska?

She was proven to be FS within 99%. It doesn't get any higher. You can prove who someone ISN'T to 100% but who they aren't can only go to 99. So she got the highest probability you can get. Some paternity tests only come up 97 or 98 and you don't see those guys crying the results were switched, conspiracy by the other prospective father, I ain't paying, etc. They accept them though they sometimes don't want to, and don't want to pay, and this directly affects their lives! So I can't understand why people get so upset over AA not being AN, it means nothing to them in their lives! (except those who have made a career out of her case, I suppose!)


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 If so, how did she manage to change distinguishing physical features not only of scars (which might be possible to fake with the right accomplices)

I don't think she did. She really didn't look that much like her if you take the features apart.  Here is another view of the comparisons done by someone not trying to prove her identity (ME!) Have another look:

AA on left, AN on right. Note the very different chins, lips, and bone structure.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanheads.jpg)

AA left, AN right

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanjaw.jpg)

Now, compare the same pic above to FS. Hey, the bone structure and features are much more like here!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/AAFS2.jpg)

There are those who claim this pic is 'retouched' but where? It's so faded you can hardly see it! It's a bad copy, yes, but not retouched! Compare it here to the real retouched one and see the difference. Unretouched on left, retouched on right.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo.jpg)


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but hair color, eye color, height,

Hardly unique.

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and shoe size

Ever consider the possibility those shoes in the boarding house that didn't fit weren't even really FS's? How many boardng house owners keep old clothes laying around for 18 years? (she vanished in 1920, court case began in 1938) They'd have tossed them or given them to someone else ages ago. She may have been mistaken. I loaned my daughter's baby clothes to a friend, and she returned the WRONG ones to me, swearing they were mine! She got mine mixed up with somebody else's. It happens!
 

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not to mention changing physical appearance enough so as not to be recognized in circles where FS was well-known

FS was not well known enough to be recognized immediately. We see the pics so we do, but in those days, a relatively anonymous girl wouldn't make much of an impression on the memories of many. Then after she got scarred and caught TB and lost weight, she changed, but still didn't look like AN- though she used the hope that people didn't remember AN well and that she 'might' have changed in her favor. Many of the people who 'id'd' her as AN had only seen her a few times, and not in many years. Remember AN was just hitting puberty when the war broke out and visits and parties stopped (besides that she was too young for balls, parties, etc.) so many people only saw her in passing as a child. Could YOU id a cousin you played with once or twice as a child after she was grown? Could anyone, really, if they hadn't seen her all along? We need to consider intangibles like this.


 
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ne learning languages and other details she had no business knowing?  

In wartime Europe, a lot of people could have picked up a lot of languages. But I am still not convinced she knew much of anything but German and Kabuchian (sp) when she was first discovered.


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a conspiracy of SOME KIND here DEFINITELY--the question is just WHO did WHAT?  

There had to be, since we know she wasn't AN, SOMEBODY had to be helping her! Of course no one leaves documents and written proof of such fraudulent activity, and they're all dead now, so we can only speculate. Gleb Botkin is a main suspect for me, since he was around the family and in the palace enough to know some things but not a lot (hence her sporatic and half baked 'memories') Also he was a writer, and she made a good story- and I don't buy it was a coincidence her claim suddenly gained steam and worldwide fame after he took up with her and helped with her court case. Think of it as "Dmitri" in the Anastasia cartoon- you be the girl, I'll provide the memories? How can anyone rule this out?


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half-convinced she wasn't Anastasia, at one point believed she'd be happier being Anastasia, and had to stick with it though she often wasn't happy with her assumed identity either.  There's at least one book in this!  It could be titled "If the Shoe Fits--Some Sorta Strange Cinderella Story"!

I'm totally convinced, and what you have here seems right to me. Once she started she couldn't back out. There would have been legal and finanacial problems for the false claim, not to mention public humiliation. I also think as time went on she did come to believe it (FS was mentally ill}
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 02, 2006, 11:51:50 AM
Thanks Annie! :)

I have nothing much more to add to Annie's points.

I will say that Hallux Vagus, otherwise known as bunions, is not a condition, as far as I know, that you are born with.  It is a condition that develops as you grow, usually through ill fitting shoes.

I've never heard of a baby being born with bunions...

And those photos are GREAT, Annie. They show so clearly the dissimilarity between AA and AN, and the uncanny similarity between AA and FS! Funny that! ;)

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 02, 2006, 05:48:57 PM
Explanation of a DNA conspiracy would be that, to those who believe in the Romanov money story, which seems never to have been found or proven,  :-? England was trying to save a bundle not having to pay off Anna Anderson's heirs.  Even if you totally discount the money, they were saving face.  After all, if Anna Anderson was for real, Lord Mountbatten comes off as a cheapskate liar who would throw family out on the street in disgrace for the sake of money.  By then he was dead and unable to speak in his own defense, and the House of Windsor had to save his reputation.  Why FS and no one else?  They had no other good explanation of who Anna Anderson could be, so it had to be FS.

Can people change so as to be unrecognizable?  Of course.  The latest campaign is about drug use changing the users' faces so they become unrecognizable to cops who picked up the same people just a few years before!  See "Faces of Meth."  To me, Anna Anderson's eyes seem much larger than those of Franziska, but weight loss can do that.  See pictures of John Goodman before he gained weight--he looks like a whole different person and his eyes are much larger!  It looks as if FS had no life to go back to and enjoyed some perks assuming AN's life, so just kept it.

And yes, she could have been a victim of "false memory syndrome."  Even John F. Kennedy, Jr., who was undoubtedly present at the famous salute at his father's funeral, said he believed his memory of it was not genuine but an image formed from having seen and heard about it so many times afterwards.

If Anna Anderson was NOT Anastasia, there definitely WAS a conspiracy and Gleb Botkin was first in line for it!  HE was the one who provided the drawings of animals and stated that AA knew which were drawn in Siberia, which elsewhere, and what stories Anastasia made to go with the drawings, which the "Unsolved Mysteries" segment called the most positive identification of Anna Anderson as Anastasia in her lifetime!  Why would a family "friend" do such a thing?  Remember, his own father was killed with the IF so this subject would be very close to him.  Did he believe in the money, or was he trying to somehow draw out people present at the death of his father to identify or implicate them?  This seems like a very interesting unexplored story bearing close examination!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 02, 2006, 08:06:19 PM
Coris,
This DNA "conspiracy" switch has been discussed to within an inch of its life thanks to AGRBear in other threads.
To be brief:
1. No one KNEW the AA sample was at martha jefferson hospital until just a few months before the test. In fact they looked for it twice before they found it.
2. IN those few months the "perp" would have had to have
A. Found out it was intestine tissue.
B. Learned EXACTLY how to duplicate the MJH path lab protocols for formalin block preservation
C. Learned the secret code of MJH hospital path lab labelling (see, they don't use patients names for privacy but codes)
D. Realized they HAD to switch out the sample for a FS match. (this bit is important because they later tested the AA sample FIRST, before testing the Maucher sample or the Victoria line sample.  How else would anyone KNOW the results before hand??)
E. FOUND Carl Maucher
F. Convinced dear Herr Maucher to undergo surgery.
G. REMOVED a duplicate bit of good herr M. 's intestine
H. Exactly replicated the MJH path lab sample with the Maucher tissue.
I. Snuck into the MJH hospital Path. lab sample storage
J. UNNOTICED
K. Switched the sample exactly
L. UNNOTICED
M. and PAID for it all, which wouldn't be cheap, including all that airfare, hospital bills etc etc

Honestly, does this seem AT ALL within the realm of remotely reasonable or rational?

PLEASE stop the DNA sample switch theory unless you have some genuine evidence to support the statments, and not space alien theory...
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 02, 2006, 09:56:41 PM
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Are these the alleged 'new' records discovered recently? Well, the jury is still out on those, we have no proof other than one person's word of mouth, and as you all always say, that's no source.

And, where have I "always" said that?????

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Would you claim YOUR sister in that situation? I know my siblings would not claim me! You know, the old 'never seen her before in my life.

Somehow, I do think I understand your siblings very well.......

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At birth? Hmm, by every account, Anastasia was a very active and athletic child, a tomboy even, swinging from trees, running, playing tennis, kind of hard to do with crippled up feet! Besides, I don't believe 'bunyons' are a birth defect, they develop later. Even if she did develop it later, this is hardly a rare or unique condition. A person who had been on her feet a lot (such as a factory worker) could also develop the problem!

Just go to www.petertkurth.com and you will find a picture of AN as a child with the Hallux Valgus clearly showing.

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1. The carriage finger incident- it was Maria on a train, not Anastasia in a carriage. (of course those who brand Olga A. a liar aren't going to accept this, since she and her book are the source of this)

2. The misdescription of the 'malachite' room. She knew it was there, and it was secret, but gave details of its interior wrong.
There are others I have seen but I don't have the specifics.

As I have told you before, two witnesses have stated that AN had her finger crushed in a carriage door at the age of three. Maria may very well have had an accident on a train, but that does not preclude AN from having had an accident as well.
As for the Malachite Room, does anyone know what it looked like before the restauration? (She may also have referred to the St. Catherine Hall in the Kremlin Palace. Description, anybody?)
Does this little detail from the Malachite Room makes for "many inaccuracies"?
Surely you or Rachel can do better than that.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 02, 2006, 10:03:36 PM
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I have nothing much more to add to Annie's points.

I've never heard of a baby being born with bunions...

Yes, babies may actually be born with Hallux Valgus, although it is a rare condition.

I am still looking for your source for FS's knowledge of English.

And, oh yes, pertaining to her memories, I would still like you to explain what "a lot of them were inaccurate" mean.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 03, 2006, 03:23:06 AM
If it's any consolation, I agree with you on the lower half of the face--Anna Anderson's jaw seems shorter and squarer, like FS's, not the somewhat longer and more pointed jaw of AN.

On the upper half of the face, eye color would have to be just luck, and people who said FS had a different eye color than AA would have to be mistaken or outright lying, or her eyes somehow actually changed color.  The ears are even more incredible--they would have to be luck or the results of highly skilled plastic surgery both expensive and hard to keep secret.  Also, faking the handwriting well enough to fool experts was an INCREDIBLE feat on the part of Ms. Anderson!   :o  If one must be an impostor,  8-), it's well, at least, not to be a slouch at it!   ::)

Being able to successfully accomplish such things doesn't seem like the work of a half-baked mental patient suddenly deciding to impersonate a princess, but would take drilling from a team of Henry Higginses!  (Hmmm, Rex Harrison played Henry Higgins teaching Eliza Doolittle to impersonate a princess.  Rex Harrison played Lord Mountbatten combatting Anna Anderson for impersonating a princess.  Way less than six degrees there!)   :-?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 03, 2006, 05:02:18 AM
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If it's any consolation, I agree with you on the lower half of the face--Anna Anderson's jaw seems shorter and squarer, like FS's, not the somewhat longer and more pointed jaw of AN.

The whole face is clearly different to me.  But yes, the jaw and chin area, especially.  You can't get a blunter chin through injury.

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On the upper half of the face, eye color would have to be just luck, and people who said FS had a different eye color than AA would have to be mistaken or outright lying, or her eyes somehow actually changed color.

Well, there were a lot of liars in this whole case.  As AA was FS, she must have had the same colour eyes all along, so somewhere along the line, someone lied.

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The ears are even more incredible--they would have to be luck or the results of highly skilled plastic surgery both expensive and hard to keep secret.  Also, faking the handwriting well enough to fool experts was an INCREDIBLE feat on the part of Ms. Anderson!   :o  If one must be an impostor,  8-), it's well, at least, not to be a slouch at it!   ::)

Ear mapping is a notoriously inexact science, hence why it is not used anymore.  It is also quite telling that in a lot of books the picture used to compare AA and AN's ears is actually a picture of GD Maria, not GD Anastasia.
And I can fake my mum's handwriting exactly.  How else do you think I got out of games at school? It's not hard to fake handwriting, and not all the experts were convinced.

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Being able to successfully accomplish such things doesn't seem like the work of a half-baked mental patient suddenly deciding to impersonate a princess, but would take drilling from a team of Henry Higginses!  (Hmmm, Rex Harrison played Henry Higgins teaching Eliza Doolittle to impersonate a princess.  Rex Harrison played Lord Mountbatten combatting Anna Anderson for impersonating a princess.  Way less than six degrees there!)   :-?

Oh, absolutely.  She got help.  A lot of help.  She was surrounded by people with a vested interest in AA being AN, and by people who knew vague details about life at court.  This was enough to get AA by, as all the people who REALLY knew AN, like her parents, siblings, aunt and grandmother, were either dead or denied her.  The people who knew her the most said she wasn't AN, and the people who said she was? Well, they WANTED to believe it.  AA was helped both by people giving her information, advice, etc, and as well by psychology.  People will believe what they want to believe, and AA played on that to get people to believe she was AN; people who have lost all those they loved, who have lost all connections to their home country and old life; well, they're going to grab onto any chance to get that back, aren't they? She played on people's sympathies, people's fuzzy memories, people's desire to have the old world of Imperial Russia in part restored.  

And it's telling that only those with tenuous at best links to the IF claimed that AA was AN.  Most of these people hadn't seen AN since before the war, and had barely spoken to her.  Some had never even met her! So, it really isn't all that surprising to me that some people claimed she was AA and were mistaken.  They wanted to believe it, AA was convincing enough to people who didn't know the IF any better than she did, and hey, it gave them some hope of possibly getting sent some money if the Romanov fortune ever got found.

ChatNoir, I will deal with your questions later when I have more time to go through my books and come up with the sources you require.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 03, 2006, 08:29:48 AM
On appearance changing drastically- no. Even if a person gets old, fat, scarred, emaciated, whatever, the features and bone structure remain the same. A person might look different just to glance at them because of hard times but if you take each detail apart, you'll see that regardless of fat, skinny, or whatever  but their basic facial form isn't going to change to that of another person. This is one thing I have debated when someone says AA got her fat lips from a rifle butt, or her face changed from damage- if this were true, it would look like a messed up version of AN's face, not change to look like a completely different person's face!

AN's lips were very small and thin, AA's wide and thick. This is why you so often see her biting them in photos, to cover that up, and to mock a childhood expression of AN's. The nose of AA is larger, the chin more square, cheekbones rougher.

These shots were taken in 1920 after AA was fished out of the canal. Remember the real AN would only have been 18 and a half, is that the face of a teenage girl? FS would have been 23-24, and she looks even too old for that, there is one quote where she was guessed at 30 in the asylum and became offended. Anyway, this isn't Anastasia Romanov, age 18:


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

Here is the profile shot compared to a profile of AN. You can see the lips, nose, chin, eyes and even the famous ears are not the same shape.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)

Note here too that FS and AA share a hair part, one AA almost always had but AN never did.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/AAFS2.jpg)

To me the only real differences between these 2 pics is the head angle and light and shadowing. Here I have lightened the FS pic so you can more clearly see the chin shape without the shadow:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fs2.jpg)

Now here you can see a side view of AN, alongside a famous pic of AA/FS that supporters love to use, but note the bitten lips and strategically hidden chin! You can also see how AA's nose is more bulbous than AN's.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaannoses.jpg)

And on the boa- there were accounts of AA playing princess tossing her boa, and as one poster once said, it seemed more like someone acting a part of a princess rather than being real. Also it's interesting to note that AN was a tomboy and not prissy at all, so this is an inaccurate portrayal!



Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 03, 2006, 08:40:49 AM
Excellent photo essay there, Annie.  That's great, because we've got lots of different angles to look at.

It's clear to me that AA lacked basic facial similarities.

The lips are too thick, the eyes go up when Anastasia's went down, the cheekbones and the whole facial bone structure in general is just completely wrong, and the nose is WAY off.  The main comment about Anastasia's appearance that I have always read is how fine her nose was.  AA does not have a fine nose, and no, your nose doesn't become broader all over from facial injury.

As time went on, photographs of AA show that she is BLATANTLY copying childhood poses of Anastasia. She bites her lips, she lowers her head, she does everything to try and imitate Anastasia.  I love the fact that in Peter Kurth, he writes next to a photo of AA picturing herself in the mirror, something along the lines of 'and AA couldn't have known that Anastasia loved photographing herself in the mirror.'  Oh, please.  Who hasn't photographed themselves in the mirror?!!

And I didn't realise those photographs of AA were taken after she was removed from the canal.  That is no way the face of an 18 year old, and that is no way the face of GD Anastasia.  No matter what facial injuries GD Anastasia may have received in the massacre, her face could not have altered that much.  Her eyes, nose, lips, chin, etc could not have changed so.  It's impossible.  

Anyone can see that AA and AN were not one and the same just from those photos.  We don't even really need to go into anything else, because the photos don't lie!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 03, 2006, 09:14:44 AM
Re: Malachite Room.

This room was not part of the private apartments off limits to visitors when the IF was not in residence.  It is described and photographed in the pre-1917 Guidebooks to the Winter Palace. The Malachite room you see today is exactly as it was then...and many tour guide and souvenir books of Petersburg of the era had photos of it...and AA described it incorrectly....period.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: niobe on May 03, 2006, 09:31:21 AM
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Thanks Annie! :)

I will say that Hallux Vagus, otherwise known as bunions, is not a condition, as far as I know, that you are born with.  It is a condition that develops as you grow, usually through ill fitting shoes.

I've never heard of a baby being born with bunions...

Rachel
xx
Just to support Chat Noir's comments on the above; you can definitely be born with bunions on both feet but the condition is generally corrected these days by means of an op. I speak from personal experience!
Regards, Niobe
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 03, 2006, 10:06:02 AM
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Excellent photo essay there, Annie.  That's great, because we've got lots of different angles to look at.

It's clear to me that AA lacked basic facial similarities.

Thanks!

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The lips are too thick, the eyes go up when Anastasia's went down, the cheekbones and the whole facial bone structure in general is just completely wrong, and the nose is WAY off.  

Yes, that's true, I noticed that about the eyes as well. AN's eyes were sort of heavily lidded and drooped down while AA's were very large, wide and go up.

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As time went on, photographs of AA show that she is BLATANTLY copying childhood poses of Anastasia. She bites her lips, she lowers her head, she does everything to try and imitate Anastasia.

Oh yes, especially on kurth's site, it's loaded with them, I laugh at how many are like that. And I'm sure someone, especially one of the Botkin kids, could have told her AA took pictures of herself in the mirror. And even if she made that up, who'd be there to verify right or wrong?


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And I didn't realise those photographs of AA were taken after she was removed from the canal.  That is no way the face of an 18 year old, and that is no way the face of GD Anastasia.  

Me either, this was a HUGE OOOHHHH! for me when I found out those pics were from early 1920! When I used to be more pro AA I hadn't known or paid any attention to that date, if I had, I'd have rejected them right off as not an 18 year old, and also not AN's face. Because I have come completely around to the other side on this is why I feel the need to point these things out to others, though it seems some just plain want to believe the myth and get very testy when you try to show them otherwise.

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Anyone can see that AA and AN were not one and the same just from those photos.  We don't even really need to go into anything else, because the photos don't lie!

Rachel
xx

Right! And as for all the stuff chatnoir mentioned, again, it's all he said she said, some people were wrong. Until the DNA can be disproven, none of that really matters. We just have to see for ourselves some people were inaccurate, because we know AA wasn't AN.

And bunions as a baby, I am still not buying that, especially since AN was such an active, athletic child. Someone born with deformed feet would have had trouble walking, much less playing tennis and swinging from trees.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2006, 10:23:24 AM
Quote
Coris,
This DNA "conspiracy" switch has been discussed to within an inch of its life thanks to AGRBear in other threads.
To be brief:
1. No one KNEW the AA sample was at martha jefferson hospital until just a few months before the test. In fact they looked for it twice before they found it.
2. IN those few months the "perp" would have had to have
A. Found out it was intestine tissue.
B. Learned EXACTLY how to duplicate the MJH path lab protocols for formalin block preservation
C. Learned the secret code of MJH hospital path lab labelling (see, they don't use patients names for privacy but codes)
D. Realized they HAD to switch out the sample for a FS match. (this bit is important because they later tested the AA sample FIRST, before testing the Maucher sample or the Victoria line sample.  How else would anyone KNOW the results before hand??)
E. FOUND Carl Maucher
F. Convinced dear Herr Maucher to undergo surgery.
G. REMOVED a duplicate bit of good herr M. 's intestine
H. Exactly replicated the MJH path lab sample with the Maucher tissue.
I. Snuck into the MJH hospital Path. lab sample storage
J. UNNOTICED
K. Switched the sample exactly
L. UNNOTICED
M. and PAID for it all, which wouldn't be cheap, including all that airfare, hospital bills etc etc

Honestly, does this seem AT ALL within the realm of remotely reasonable or rational?

PLEASE stop the DNA sample switch theory unless you have some genuine evidence to support the statments, and not space alien theory...


The timeline  for the samples to be found to the time the samples was given to Dr. Giles and Dr. King took more than "few months".

I bumped up the thread about the Timeline for AA which includes  who started the search for the sample of the intestines, why, and what followed.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2006, 10:29:10 AM
Quote
Let's explore the timeline between the surgery of AA in Aug of 1979 to the delivery of the intestine sample to Dr. Gill on 29 June 1994.


20 Aug 1979 -  AA was rushed to Martha Jefferson Hospital where Dr. Richard Shrum operated on her small intestine obstruction which prove to have turned gangrene.  Massie tells us the details on p. 194-5 THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER:  

>>The procedure of sending the tissue to the pathology lab was sent 5 inches of intestines.  This tissue was divided into five one-inch segments which were bathed in a issue preservative called formalin, sealed inside a block of paraffin wax one inch square and half an inch deep, and placed in a small blue and white box on a shelf filled with other similar boxes containing tissue specimens.<<

12 Feb 1984   - Anna Anderson Manahan died.  Her body was cremated the same day.

July 1992 - Dr. William Maples stated that he believed Anastasia was the missing  Grand Duchess and not Maria whom the Russians claimed was missing

22 Sept 1992 Syd Mandelaum writes to several major laboratories looking for genetic samples of AA's to test at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory or at Harvard Medical School  because he was writing a book on DNA and wanted to add it's usage to forenic in regards to AA.  The one letter went to Martha Jefferson Hospital where AA had surgery.

p. 195 Massie tells us the answer Mandelaum receive to his inquiry:

>>...Martha Jefferson Hospital, replied to Mandelbaun that "we have nothing here that could be useful to you."

Klier and Mingay give us more information on this request p. 203
>>...At the time the hospital was in a chaotic administrative state due to a major refurbishment, and although officals conducted a cursory search of their files, they did not find any recoreds under  either of those names.  Hospital officals claim they did not intentionally mislead Mandelbaum.  Indeen there was no tissue sample stored in the hospital under either name proposed by Mandelbaum.<<  The names he had given were Anna Anderson or Mrs. Jack Manahan.

22 Nov 1992 Mary DeWitt,  p. 196, >>a student of forensic pathology of the University of Texas<< asked the hospiital for some tissue because she'd like to stuy it for a paper.   They reply from Penny Jenkins was: >>"No, I can't help you."<<  Mary DeWitt did not give up.  She contacted Lovell asking for his help.  Lovel received a letter from John Manahan's cousin Fred Lowvel who granted Lovel authority to dispose of the tissue.

 Dec 1992, two days after Mary DeWitt's first letter  - Dr. Willi Korte conatacted Jenkins.  Her story was different to Korte.  She told him that they did have compartitive samples of AA.  
p. 206 of Kleir and Mingay:
>>Korte's...phone calls galvanized the hospital's acting director of medical records, Penny Jenkins, to take a more detailed look at the hospital's patient database. She made a through search of the viles and the pathology departemtn's vaults  and found that, indeed, a tissue sample from Anderson was held there, albeit under the name of Anatasia Manahan.<<  This was found Dec 1992one month after his first phone call.

Dec. 1992 - Thomas Kline with the law firm Andrews and Kurth contacted Jenkins.  Jenkins told him they had samples.

Sping 1993 Mary DeWitt's lawyer contacted Martha Jefferson Hospital, again....

The agreement between DeWitt and Lovel disintergrated and Lovel refused to be part of DeWitt's research.  Evidently DeWitt's husband was an investigator but there is no mention if he had been hired by anyone or if he was acting on his own or if  she was just doing this on her own.

Jan 1993 - Thomas Kline contacted Fred Manahan who referred him to Lovel.

16 April 1993- Kline wrote to Lovell formally asking for help in obtaining access to AA's tissue for DNA testing to be done by the Forensic Insitute in Munich.

18 March 1993 -Kline wrote Lovel again and explained what he thought of Korte and suggested Dr. Mary-Claire King [UC Berkeley] if he did not wish to use Munich with whom Dr. Gill was a part.

date? Lovel contacted Richard Schweitzer for advice.

Meanwhile, Penny Jenkins who had been contacted by these people and attorneys,  started to ask the hospital attorneys what needed to done.   The hospital attorneys dealt with Richard  Schwitzer who is a lawyer and use to post here on this forum.

May to Sept 1993 -
(1) Agreement was made to use a litigator Matthey Murray.
(2)  Richard  Schweitzer approached Dr. Gill after he was told the Armed Forces Institue of Pathology in Maryland could not agree to the terms of the test of the DNA.  And filed his wife's petition 30 Sept 1993 because of who she was and her contact with AA and being a citizen of Virgina which was required

1 Nov 1993 Circuit Court Judge Jay T. Swett dealt with this case


I will continue with this timeline as I have time.

So, what timeline do we have so far with just the discovery of the sample to the first court appearance: 20 Aug 1992 to 1 Nov. 1993 which is more than a year.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 03, 2006, 02:22:36 PM
Thanks for the timelines, which are wonderful for people seeking the facts without time to read whole books or who may even be confused by too much information, especially conflicting information in books which may rely too heavily on unreliable sources.

What convinced me, besides any doubts I may have already had regarding the photographs, was that the fabled Romanov money didn't turn up, even to go to PROVEN relatives of the Imperial Family whom the House of Windsor would NEVER deny.  The movie version of Anna Anderson's story shows a reluctant relative turning AA out because she is afraid to lose all she has as a Romanov.  Peter Kurth's book version shows this person turning her out due to difficulties she caused in the household.  What convinced me is Anastasia's Aunt Olga, how sincere she seemed, and that she didn't finish out her days in wealth and had no reason to deny her favorite niece, who was well-known to her.  She gave Anna Anderson every chance (unlike some relatives who refused to even see her) and honestly concluded she was not Anastasia.  Even then she seemed more forgiving and understanding than condemning--perhaps, having suffered such hard times herself, she understood how personal hardship might drive an individual to some strange extremes.  This is much more convincing to me than a story about Lord Mountbatten trying to smear a genuine person to save the country some money.

I now have to regard Gleb Botkin as a liar and conspirator and wonder at his motives, and feel sorry that so many actual relatives of Anastasia's were so maligned in this case.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on May 03, 2006, 03:01:03 PM
I've been giving the subject of how to fiddle a DNA test much thought but wasn't planning to post a riposte to Forum Admin's detailed description of what he thought needed to be done to "get at" the maucher/manahan samples.  However I suspect that FA does not have the kind of criminal mind I obviously possess which has, on occasion, helped me identify a few financial services crimes in the course of my everyday work.

The important thing, surely, is that what is being compared is the RESULTS of the DNA tests.  No need to switch samples, persuade relatives to have operations etc.  All I'd need to do is decide what result I wanted.  If I wanted person (A) to appear to be my sister I'd get a sample from my actual sister and one from me; if I wanted (A) to be my cousin I'd get a sample from my cousin. and one from me  I'd let all the testing take place and then insert the results of my separate tests in place of the results of the actual tests.  Hard to do, but much simpler than all the unnecessary fabrications and plots that FA has suggested.  Only two interventions in the procedure, not several.  Who would know?  Provided the DNA was from a human male and a human female who were related who would guess that there was a problem?  the fact that the samples were correctly identified and taken and the tests rigorously carried out add weight to the result I want.

I MUST STRESS THAT I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS DID HAPPEN.  Merely that it would be a lot simpler to do it than one might think.

Over to the serious conspiracy theorists..........

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 03, 2006, 03:19:17 PM
Phil,
One small problem, four separate labs did the testing independantly all using the base sample from MJH, so the initial sample itself is the key.

Back to you Phil....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on May 03, 2006, 10:47:12 PM
Obviously a lot harder than I thought!

Phil T
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 04, 2006, 12:31:49 AM
And remember, her hair was tested for DNA some time after the initial tests, and it arrived at the same result.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 04, 2006, 12:50:33 AM
Four labs all reached the same result?

And, I had no idea the hair tested out the same as the tissue sample, I thought it was different?

Obviously someone went to a lot of trouble NOT to be accused of fiddling with the results.  I'm impressed.   :-?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 04, 2006, 05:31:30 PM
That's because they were all accurate, AA was FS and not AN and that's the way it goes!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 05, 2006, 03:35:19 AM
This http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm gives a lot of information on Gleb Botkin and other Anna Anderson supporters, and certainly offers insight as to why FS's own family wouldn't want her back  ::) but says not a word as to why other people, such as schoolmates, grenade factory workers or asylum attendants, wouldn't have come forward to identify AA as FS.  Was her camp really so powerful as to intimidate everybody who might have shed light on the situation?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 05, 2006, 08:22:17 AM
Quote
This http://www.serfes.org/royal/annaanderson.htm gives a lot of information on Gleb Botkin and other Anna Anderson supporters, and certainly offers insight as to why FS's own family wouldn't want her back  ::) but says not a word as to why other people, such as schoolmates, grenade factory workers or asylum attendants, wouldn't have come forward to identify AA as FS.  Was her camp really so powerful as to intimidate everybody who might have shed light on the situation?

I completely agree with him. I thought all those things before I saw that site and was glad to see someone feel the same way as me. However when I use this as a 'source' I only get bashed by AA supporters! Apparently, they can call Olga, Ernie and Gilliard liars but you're not allowed to accuse Gleb ::)

There was every reason her family wouldn't want her back and no reason to claim her. If she was claimed, she'd have been exposed, and would have faced charges of fraud and filing a false claim. This would have landed her in legal trouble that her family likely would have had to foot the bill for. Also consider how much she'd hate them for blowing her cover, and then what would they do, drag her home kicking and screaming and hating them forever? Who'd want to be responsible for a mentally ill sister with no money, no job and a load of legal and medical bills? Nobody! Also, people in those days were very touchy over the family honor and public 'embarrassment' (the older folk in my own family were very sensitive about being humiliated, having the family name sullied, etc, even by the sillest things) so this is another reason they'd avoid claiming her. If you really look at it, they had NO reason to claim her and EVERY reason to deny her, for her own good as well as theirs! There are quotes by her family saying that they 'left her to her 'career' as Anastasia' (also discounted by AA supporters) They knew as long as she was "Anastasia" somebody would take care of her and they wouldn't have to. It was a sad situation, and I'm sure they struggled with it and feared being found out. Of course there is no written evidence of this, but, as Rose in Titanic said, 'there wouldn't be, now, would there?' It's not the kind of thing people go around admitting to and leaving paper trails of. You just have to put the pieces together for yourself.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 05, 2006, 08:31:49 AM
Took the words right out of my mouth, Annie! :D

What I find hilarious is the double standard in this.

Everyone in the AA camp declares that it's totally believable that the Romanovs denied AA because of the money, because of their reputation, because of the hassle it would cause, etc.

But when it comes to FS's family denying her? Oh, they'd never do that, why would they deny their own sister? They'd have no reason to!

Funny that, isn't it!?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 05, 2006, 09:07:02 AM
As far as I have read, the Schankowskis were assured that they were not responsible for FS if they acknowledged her. And when the Berlin police first sent out her picture to "every corner of the Weimar Republic," NOBODY came forward and identified her as FS. No former friends, co-workers, family, doctors, nurses, nobody. And at this time, there was no Anastasia affair. Also, from Peterkurth.com:

"I hope they will include the letter of Gertrude's daughter, Margarete, sent to her uncle, Felix Schanzkowski, on May 16, 1959, in which Franziska’s niece urges Franziska’s brother to "recognize" Anna Anderson and realize her potential for the family:  "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the tsar!""

And Rachel, I'm still waiting for your sources for FS knowledge of English and the many mistakes AA did. According to Gertrude, FS knew NO foreign languages.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 05, 2006, 09:33:17 AM
So, Gertrude said FS knew no foreign languages.  You're prepared to believe Gertrude's statement there, but not the statement she made of acknowledging Franziska?! She said 'Admit it! Admit it!' to AA, remember.  Why is one statement of hers reliable and not the other?

I SWEAR I read somewhere that Felix said FS could speak a bit of English but I could be mistaken.  I can't find a source for it in any of my books, but it's possible I could have read it in a library book.  However, with no source available to me, I will admit I can't prove that.

As for mistakes AA made, here you go:

1. Failed to accurately describe the Malachite Room

2. Didn't recognise and appeared to be afraid of her Aunt Irene when she came to visit her.  Only after the event when she had been told who the visitor was did she say she had known who it was all along. Peter Kurth, p. 52

3. AA talked about Sophie Buxhoeveden had been a traitor to the family and how her parents had suspected that she had betrayed them.  There is no mention of Alexandra or Nicholas saying anything of the kind in their correspondence or diary entries that I have read.  This appears to have been a rumour AA picked up amongst the emigre community rather than one based in fact.  Peter Kurth, p. 58

4. AA failed to recognise Volkov.  Peter Kurth, p. 99

5. AA hated Felix and was afraid of him on their first meeting, and then was delighted to see him on their next- in Peter Kurth but I can't find the page.

And I can't find the page, but also in Peter Kurth it states that AA failed to recognise items belonging to her and also misidentified photographs of her parent's rooms.

There are just a few, there are many more I know of, but I either don't have the books or I can't find them in the books I do have.  I haven't really got the time to go through books and find quotes right now.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 05, 2006, 01:56:36 PM
Quote

5. AA hated Felix and was afraid of him on their first meeting, and then was delighted to see him on their next- in Peter Kurth but I can't find the page.


Didn't AA claim that Felix tried to kill her??? I laughed out loud at that one, still makes me laugh now in fact.

Some great comedy value in all this  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 05, 2006, 04:16:29 PM
I am fairly sure the meeting between Felix Y. and AA, 'death threat' and all, is in "The Man Who Killed Rasputin" by Greg King.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 05, 2006, 10:10:44 PM
Quote
So, Gertrude said FS knew no foreign languages.  You're prepared to believe Gertrude's statement there, but not the statement she made of acknowledging Franziska?! She said 'Admit it! Admit it!' to AA, remember.  Why is one statement of hers reliable and not the other?

I SWEAR I read somewhere that Felix said FS could speak a bit of English but I could be mistaken.  I can't find a source for it in any of my books, but it's possible I could have read it in a library book.  However, with no source available to me, I will admit I can't prove that.

As for mistakes AA made, here you go:

1. Failed to accurately describe the Malachite Room

See my answer to Annie

Quote
2. Didn't recognise and appeared to be afraid of her Aunt Irene when she came to visit her.  Only after the event when she had been told who the visitor was did she say she had known who it was all along. Peter Kurth, p. 52

This is one of those unproven and unprovable moments. AA said she recognized aunt Irene's voice, then realized that "aunt Nini" had come under an assumed name, "like a thief in the night", and she got so upset that she ran crying to her room and refused to talk to her aunt.

Quote
3. AA talked about Sophie Buxhoeveden had been a traitor to the family and how her parents had suspected that she had betrayed them.  There is no mention of Alexandra or Nicholas saying anything of the kind in their correspondence or diary entries that I have read.  This appears to have been a rumour AA picked up amongst the emigre community rather than one based in fact.  Peter Kurth, p. 58

AA talked about her mother being upset with "Isa" already in Tobolsk, but again, this cannot be proven.

Quote
4. AA failed to recognise Volkov.  Peter Kurth, p. 99

When Frau Rathlef told her that "the man has come from Copenhagen to see you", AA replied: "But he belonged to our court." Apparently she recognized the face, but could not remember his name.

Quote
5. AA hated Felix and was afraid of him on their first meeting, and then was delighted to see him on their next- in Peter Kurth but I can't find the page.

There was not more than one meeting between them. AA was not happy about meeting him and demanded that the Duke of Leuchtenberg be present the entire time.

Quote
And I can't find the page, but also in Peter Kurth it states that AA failed to recognise items belonging to her and also misidentified photographs of her parent's rooms.

What items? As for the photos of her parents rooms, she identified every one even after the misses Lavington and von Leuchtenberg had removed every scrap of identifying captions.


Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 06, 2006, 04:36:57 AM
Why didn't Lord Mountbatten simply offer the Schanzkowskis an adequate amount in exchange for positively identifying their sister?  It seems like it would have saved everyone a lot of time, trouble and money, rather than trying to prove who she was NOT, to demonstrate who she WAS, but perhaps he didn't want to be involved in anything that would seem like bribery or conflict of interest.

It seems as if he, or those working in his interests in this case, would have pursued it they might have turned up someone who'd known Franziska and been able to identify Anna as her.  Why was everyone so silent on this?  Her family had motives, but how did those extend to coworkers, landlords, and hospital workers?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 06, 2006, 08:04:26 AM
Quote
Why didn't Lord Mountbatten simply offer the Schanzkowskis an adequate amount in exchange for positively identifying their sister?

All these 'paid off' ideas were fabricated by AA supporters, Mountbatten probably never even thought of that. Even if they had been paid off, it would still have been a major betrayal of of their sister, one they'd have on their conscience forever, because even if they were set for life, she wouldn't be. If she were exposed she'd have faced charges of fraud and filing a false claim, been humilated worldwide, and would be left shunned, friendless and broke for the rest of her life- and remember she was suicidal. And there is always a possibility she offered them a cut of the alleged payoff if she won for their silence.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 06, 2006, 08:30:48 AM
Interesting. All AA could say about Volkov was "he belonged to our court." She remembered tiny details , allegedly, about immaterial things.... but ALL she could 'recall' was THAT, about a man who went into exile with them after serving Alexandra as personal valet for several years, attended them closely in Tobolsk, STAYED with Anastasia Nicholaievna after her parents left for Ekaterinburg and travelled WITH her to Eketerinburg...and not even recall his name? For Pete's sake even Victoria Milford Haven knew Volkov's name.....
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 06, 2006, 10:20:58 AM
Yes, it makes one wonder, doesn't it. But on the other hand, how could FS know that he "belonged to the court?"
Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 06, 2006, 11:03:01 AM
Quote
Yes, it makes one wonder, doesn't it. But on the other hand, how could FS know that he "belonged to the court?"
Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

1. Good guess- there were over 1500 people in 'the court.' She knew he had to be of some significance to the family or he wouldn't have been brought there.

2. The person(s) helping her with the info knew only basically who he was but no details.

Those are the only possible answers.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on May 06, 2006, 11:08:12 AM
Yeah, a major puzzle. Just HOW could FS figure out that an old man, obviously NOT a noble or Romanov, being presented to her as someone AN would have know, might be "a member of the court"...a hugely overbroad catagory.  The real AN would have known at LEAST that Volkov was in personal service to her mother, which and not just "a member of our court". Yes, I'm sure stumped on how she got that right...
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 06, 2006, 11:08:57 AM
Quote


What items? As for the photos of her parents rooms, she identified every one even after the misses Lavington and von Leuchtenberg had removed every scrap of identifying captions.


Kind regards
Chat Noir

1. She had to know they were of intimate significance if she was being shown them.

2. If captions had been 'cut off' the pics, that had to mean that the pics had been published somewhere with captions still on- which means she could easily have seen them before.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 06, 2006, 01:31:17 PM
All arguments concerning interested parties make sense, but I am still at a loss as to why no disinterested party, such as a coworker or supervisor, ever came forward.  If they did it can't have been suppressed--some powerful people were at work in the anti-AA camp, and who wouldn't want to ingratiate themselves to them, or at least do what's right--if they saw telling the truth as right.

It's a greater mystery than the story of the body of the little girl found after the Hartford Circus Fire who no one claimed http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1930601247/sr=8-2/qid=1146939815/ref=sr_1_2/103-5831338-8734208?%5Fencoding=UTF8 although the story and picture were circulated far and wide and the case made books for over 40 years about "the girl who came from nowhere."  Okay, so her mother was in the hospital following the fire and not in shape to conduct a search, but why did NO ONE who knew the family come forward to them regarding this highly-publicized story?  The poor mother went to her grave not knowing what happened to her daughter!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 06, 2006, 03:20:02 PM
I remember that circus girl story, wasn't she finally recognized on Unsovled Mysteries? I know her brothers came forward and finally claimed her, 50 years later. It is hard to understand, it seems any family with a missing child would have been searching and looking for something like that. They probably thought she burned to ashes, but with so much publicity over "Little Miss 1565" you'd think they'd have heard about it and checked to see if it was her. After 9-11, dozens of family members walked the streets with 'missing' signs, checking hospitals and homeless shelters, hoping against hope that their loved one had somehow gotten out and was lying somewhere with amnesia. They even checked the un-id'd bodies. Truly sad in every way.

In the case of FS, I honestly feel she just wasn't that spectacular and memorable to the average coworker or person on the street enough to have remembered her. Also by the time she was AA she was scarred and had lost a lot of weight. She just didn't register in anyone's mind. Some may have taken a second look, then didn't bother with it.

As far as her family, it could be they weren't close at the time. It took them weeks to notice she was gone and report her missing. In the days before cell phones and computers, or even regular long distance service, you couldn't just check in on a person every night before bed as families do now. She didn't even write regularly. So it's no surprise they didn't notice her gone for so long. Even the women at the boarding house may just have thought she took off so she wouldn't have to pay, or ran off with a  man and never came back.

Look at the story of Michael Jordan's father. He was missing, murdered, and his body found decayed at the bottom of a swamp before his family knew he was missing, and this was a famous person in modern times who was very close to his family! They said he very often took off on trips and didn't contact anyone for a long time so they never suspected anything was up until his car, and later his body, were found. So it's really not surprising FS would go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: stepan on May 06, 2006, 07:12:03 PM
Quote
Interesting. All AA could say about Volkov was "he belonged to our court." She remembered tiny details , allegedly, about immaterial things.... but ALL she could 'recall' was THAT, about a man who went into exile with them after serving Alexandra as personal valet for several years, attended them closely in Tobolsk, STAYED with Anastasia Nicholaievna after her parents left for Ekaterinburg and travelled WITH her to Eketerinburg...and not even recall his name? For Pete's sake even Victoria Milford Haven knew Volkov's name.....

In an interview with  the Russian newspaper Poslednie Novosti published in Tallin, Estonia Volkov denied that AA was Anastasia. Volkov commented negatively on the people who surrounded Madame Tshaikovsky during his visit. "The conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tshaikowsky seemed to me very suspect.They intervened all the time,completed her inadequate answers and excused all her errors under the pretext that she was ill."  I suppose one of these people was Harriet von Rathlef-Keilman who took care of her during this time 1925- 26.  Gilliard called her AA´s impresario.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 07, 2006, 02:38:18 AM
As far as I know, the story of "Little Miss 1565," victim of the Hartford Circus Fire, was never featured on "Unsolved Mysteries," but was solved by the author of the book through research.  The information appeared in an article some years prior, then came the book.  The brother did claim her and had her buried with the family.  One really sad case featured on "Unsolved Mysteries" reminded me so of Anastasia.  A boy from Oregon living with two roommates in Los Angeles went missing and his friends and family launched a major search.  When one of them showed his photo to people at a homeless shelter, several people said he had eaten there and was "tall, thin, and very lanky"--hard to get from just a picture of a face.  He seemed disoriented and his friends clung to the hope he was suffering amnesia.  Later his remains were found and were verified to have been where they were since the day he was abducted from an ATM machine.  Yet several people claimed to have seen him alive--another case of near "twin" syndrome.

The circus girl's story, that of James Jordan, and others, illustrate that truth really is stranger than fiction!  You'd think the circus fire mystery victim would have been identified in weeks.  In the case of Anastasia, the whole thing would have been cleared up had people just agreed, but you had a bunch on one side saying one thing and an equally vehement group opposing it.

Who I feel really sorry for, besides Anastasia's family of course, is Peter Kurth, who had such an emotional investment in Anna Anderson's story he didn't see all its doubtful aspects even after spending years studying the facts, and even after the DNA results were revealed!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 07, 2006, 04:46:46 AM
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2. Didn't recognise and appeared to be afraid of her Aunt Irene when she came to visit her.  Only after the event when she had been told who the visitor was did she say she had known who it was all along. Peter Kurth, p. 52

This is one of those unproven and unprovable moments. AA said she recognized aunt Irene's voice, then realized that "aunt Nini" had come under an assumed name, "like a thief in the night", and she got so upset that she ran crying to her room and refused to talk to her aunt.

Why would she refuse to talk to her aunt just because she came under an assumed name? She refused to talk to Irene because she knew Irene would find her out.  Don't make excuses for this; if AA was AN and so desperate to be recognised, she wouldn't turn her back on her aunt.  

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3. AA talked about Sophie Buxhoeveden had been a traitor to the family and how her parents had suspected that she had betrayed them.  There is no mention of Alexandra or Nicholas saying anything of the kind in their correspondence or diary entries that I have read.  This appears to have been a rumour AA picked up amongst the emigre community rather than one based in fact.  Peter Kurth, p. 58

AA talked about her mother being upset with "Isa" already in Tobolsk, but again, this cannot be proven.

Exactly.  So another mistake AA made.

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4. AA failed to recognise Volkov.  Peter Kurth, p. 99

When Frau Rathlef told her that "the man has come from Copenhagen to see you", AA replied: "But he belonged to our court." Apparently she recognized the face, but could not remember his name.

As FA and Annie have pointed out, there were over 1500 members of the court and anyone who wasn't a relation or a noble that came to see AA would have had to have been a member of the court.  Someone who was THAT close to the Imperial Family would have been recognised immediately by the real AN.  This is another mistake that cannot be excused.

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5. AA hated Felix and was afraid of him on their first meeting, and then was delighted to see him on their next- in Peter Kurth but I can't find the page.

There was not more than one meeting between them. AA was not happy about meeting him and demanded that the Duke of Leuchtenberg be present the entire time.

Oh yes.  I thought Felix had seen AA in hospital first, but that meeting was actually in Castle Seeon.
Interesting though that Felix said he was delighted to see her, but then someone else said she apparently wasn't.  Perhaps because after her first delight, AA realised that Felix would be able to out her? Funny that she refused to speak to him as well.  Wouldn't it have helped her case if she had done so? I don't buy the 'but he killed Rasputin so she would hate him' rubbish at all.  What would make Yussupov say she was happy to see him if she hadn't originally had a favourable attitude?

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And I can't find the page, but also in Peter Kurth it states that AA failed to recognise items belonging to her and also misidentified photographs of her parent's rooms.

What items? As for the photos of her parents rooms, she identified every one even after the misses Lavington and von Leuchtenberg had removed every scrap of identifying captions.

She failed to recognise an icon belonging to her mother and some other items that were her mother's.  Also, if these rooms had captions on, as Annie said, they would have been published in a magazine that AA was probably given at some point.  

So, as usual, you have been proved wrong.  AA DID make mistakes and lots of.

She failed to recognise her aunt and her mother's personal valet? Oh, dear...

And if this was down to memory loss through trauma, it's interesting how AA remembered about her fortune in the Bank of England and even about the password, but forgot her aunt's face, isn't it? Selective memory indeed.

Rachel
xx


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 07, 2006, 04:56:34 AM
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In the case of FS, I honestly feel she just wasn't that spectacular and memorable to the average coworker or person on the street enough to have remembered her. Also by the time she was AA she was scarred and had lost a lot of weight. She just didn't register in anyone's mind. Some may have taken a second look, then didn't bother with it.

As far as her family, it could be they weren't close at the time. It took them weeks to notice she was gone and report her missing. In the days before cell phones and computers, or even regular long distance service, you couldn't just check in on a person every night before bed as families do now. She didn't even write regularly. So it's no surprise they didn't notice her gone for so long. Even the women at the boarding house may just have thought she took off so she wouldn't have to pay, or ran off with a  man and never came back.

Look at the story of Michael Jordan's father. He was missing, murdered, and his body found decayed at the bottom of a swamp before his family knew he was missing, and this was a famous person in modern times who was very close to his family! They said he very often took off on trips and didn't contact anyone for a long time so they never suspected anything was up until his car, and later his body, were found. So it's really not surprising FS would go unnoticed.

This is very true, Annie.

At that time, family members sometimes wouldn't see each other for years on end if they lived in opposite ends of the country and didn't have the means to visit regularly. Families simply weren't as close as they are now, so it's unsurprising that FS's family didn't realise she was missing.

And, people say why didn't FS's coworkers, friends, etc come forward? Well, how do we know how far this story spread? FS's coworkers, friends, etc may not have been able to read, and so they wouldn't have read about it in the newspaper.  Many of them may not have known about the case at all.  And as Annie says, a lot of people don't register other people.  You don't look at a casual workmate and scrutinise their face just in case they go missing and you might need to identify them later, do you? I work in a supermarket and I work with A LOT of people; just like FS would have done in the factory.  Would I be able to absolutely 100% positively identify one of my workmates if I had to? No, I wouldn't. Only the few I speak to regularly, the others, I wouldn't trust myself to positively identify.

So, as far as I'm concerned, it is completely understandable that more people didn't come forward to identify FS.  Many of the people in her community may have had no access to newspapers and may not have been able to read them even if they did.  Many of them may have lacked the funds to travel to Germany to identify her, many of them probably just weren't that interested.  And, out of all of those people, how many would REALLY know FS and remember her face to the degree where they would be able to say 'Yes, this is her?'.  Not as many as you might think, especially as she had changed through illness and it had been a couple of years since she had been home.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 07, 2006, 11:42:20 AM
Just to clear up a few things.....

FS did not live at a boarding house, she stayed at a private residence with the Wingenders who took her in as an act of charity. They were the ones who reported her missing, almost three weeks after she allegedly was found. Surely they would have recognized her from pictures, but apparently did not. And neither did anyone else.

Felix Y. met AA at castle Seeon for around 15 minutes, and they chatted in "the four usual languages".

The photos came from Miss Lavington's sister who had sent her clippings from The New York Times, headlined "First Uncensored Photos from Soviet Russia". I doubt very much that AA was a subscriber to The New York Times and had seen the photos there before.

As for Volkov, I agree. It is very strange that she did not recognize him right away. But she was able to answer all his questions, and asked him a few of her own. When he left, he said to Frau Rathlef: "I do believe she is the Grand Duchess, but how come the Grand Duchess speaks no Russian? Think of the position I am in! If I now say that it is she, and others later claim the reverse, where would I be then?"

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 07, 2006, 12:37:51 PM
I thought Felix said she refused to speak to him even though he tried speaking to her in all four languages? I am pretty sure that it was Felix said.  And he called her a 'playactress'.

Volkov later said AA was not AN.  Away from the heightened emotion of the immediate situation, he obviously realised that he was mistaken.

In your opinion ChatNoir, how literate do you think the family and friends of a woman with FS's social standing would have been? How easy would it have been for them to receive newspapers about the AA case? Can you shed any light on this for us?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 07, 2006, 02:05:50 PM
I think the family of FS were all literate, but not having attended anything but grade school, they were not eligible for the best jobs in town. As for reading about the Anastasia case in the newspapers, I think they had full access to anything published in Berlin and Germany in general. Foreign newspapers were probably off limits to them due to the fact that they (her immediate family) spoke and understood only German and a little Polish (Kashoubian). (According to Gertrude, she forgot her Kashoubian through disuse.) I don't think pictures from Russian palaces and private quarters of the IF were daily fodder for the press due to the oppressive Russian regime.  Then again, I was not there, so I may be wrong on this point.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 07, 2006, 05:45:13 PM
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I don't think pictures from Russian palaces and private quarters of the IF were daily fodder for the press due to the oppressive Russian regime.  Then again, I was not there, so I may be wrong on this point.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

I don't think she accessed them back home in Poland, I think she saw them once she was in Berlin.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 07, 2006, 05:49:39 PM
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I thought Felix said she refused to speak to him even though he tried speaking to her in all four languages? I am pretty sure that it was Felix said.  And he called her a 'playactress'.

Yes I am almost certain this is in "The Man Who Killed Rasputin" by Greg King. He spoke to her in all four languages, she only answered him in German. He pronounced her a 'frightful playactress' and  a 'wretched creature who is not the daughter of our Tsar.'

She later claimed Felix pulled out a knife and yelled "I killed Rasputin and I will kill you too for what your mother did to my country!" and a chase all around the hotel ensued. There are no witnesses or any evidence of this happening.

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Volkov later said AA was not AN.  Away from the heightened emotion of the immediate situation, he obviously realised that he was mistaken.

He also said she appeared coached. This was posted by Stepan on the previous page:

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In an interview with  the Russian newspaper Poslednie Novosti published in Tallin, Estonia Volkov denied that AA was Anastasia. Volkov commented negatively on the people who surrounded Madame Tshaikovsky during his visit. "The conduct of the people who surrounded Madame Tshaikowsky seemed to me very suspect.They intervened all the time,completed her inadequate answers and excused all her errors under the pretext that she was ill."  I suppose one of these people was Harriet von Rathlef-Keilman who took care of her during this time 1925- 26.  Gilliard called her AA´s impresario.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: hg123 on May 07, 2006, 06:24:06 PM
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She later claimed Felix pulled out a knife and yelled "I killed Rasputin and I will kill you too for what your mother did to my country!" and a chase all around the hotel ensued. There are no witnesses or any evidence of this happening.

Not to mention, that that seems extremely out of character for Felix. He is a charming conniver and I don't see, why he should behave in such a ridiculous way. ("I KEEL YOU DEAD. BWAHAHA"  ::)). I doubt he would have gotten Rasputin, if he acted like this in front of him. Besides, why should he want to kill Anastasia for what might or might not be Alexandra's flaws? Seems pretty much nonsense to me, like most of what came out of AA's mouth.

(However, I can see Felix making such a comment just to scare AA. That I find completely in character).  
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ivan Komarov on May 07, 2006, 07:15:31 PM
That's absolutely right...he was as good a sneaky courtier, albeit an honourable one, as any.  Also, I agree that he would have no reason to do such a thing; I doubt he hated Alexandra enough to kill her children - and why threaten AA if he didn't believe that she was one of the children?  Can anyone name something that AA said that wasn't nonsense?  

My parents always tell me that I should know local history, and considering AA lived just over the mountain from me, I've read plenty about her, and it's all nonsense - except that she was a liar.

P.S. And that is so true that Felix would do it as a joke.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 07, 2006, 07:23:51 PM
Just for the record, I do not believe her story on Felix at all. I don't think he'd do that, and IF he did, surely it would have been heard and seen by many and the cops or at least security would have been called. No one other than AA ever saw this happen, because it didn't. It only happened in her mind.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 07, 2006, 08:35:22 PM
I totally agree we'll never truly know every detail, but from what I've learned here, I think it's possible to know the basic, important details in the main.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 08, 2006, 03:33:52 AM
Well I don't think it's really up for question that AA was deranged.  She spent most of her life pretending to be someone else! ;)

I don't believe a word of the Felix story either.  AA almost always had someone else in the room with her when she met people her little clan had arranged to come and see her, so I'm sure that there would have been someone around to stop Felix if that did happen, which it didn't, or corroborate the story.  

I think it's hilarious myself.  I can just imagine it now... ;D

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on May 08, 2006, 10:27:52 AM
The big problem with believing anything that Felix says is that, in the one thing where he seems specific i.e. the Rasputin murder, he is so easily proved to be a liar (see all the work done on this on the Rasputin thread, for example).  Still, it is an amusing image nonetheless, Felix pursuing AA through the hospital and shouting.

Phil Tomaselli  
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: hg123 on May 08, 2006, 10:54:13 AM
Oh yes, Felix was without a doubt a masterful liar. In my first or second post here on this board I mentioned that he should have become an author (of completely fictional books, I mean  ;)), and I was only half-joking. He's an excellent storyteller, who has the ability to make some completely ridiculous things in his autobiography almost seem convincing. But then, I do not trust what any of those Romanovs or aristocrats wrote in their autobiographies or memories. Felix' version at least is entertaining, which I can't say about some of the other ones, which are probably just as far from the truth, if in a less obvious way. (And to be honest, if I ever should become important enough to write one as well, I would make myself look good, too. It will be enough, if others bash me, thank you very much.  ;D).

But the thing is, I consider AA to be just as big a liar as Felix is. I can't take her seriously either. And in this case I happen to believe that Felix said the truth, because Anna's version just doesn't make any sense to me. The idea that Felix would want to kill Anastasia, because he blamed Alexandra for Russian's downfall just seems ridiculous to me. Plus, I can't see him pulling a knive like that. I know that in some ways he was a dangerous person (just ask Rasputin), though IMO not more than most other Russian nobility members, but there's a difference between cold-blooded manipulation and pulling a knife to stab your victim. Felix Yusupov was capable of the first, but IMO not of the second, he was even said to be incapable to kill a mouse. That doesn't make him a better person, the first kind behaviour has the same consequences as the later after all, but it does make me believe, that he was telling the truth in this case and that AA just blamed him, because he recognized her for the fraud she was.

Like I said, I do think it's possible, that he just threatened her to scare her. It seems his idea of a joke.  ::)

And yes, the whole image is very amusing.  ;D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: stepan on May 08, 2006, 03:14:26 PM
The story about Felix trying to kill AA her appeared in James Blair Lovell´s book if I remember correctly.And it´s known to many that a lot in  his book is more fiction that fact. So perhaps it was simply Lovell´s imagination.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 08, 2006, 03:19:01 PM
As far as AA being deranged, I agree but never took that alone as proof that she wasn't Anastasia.  As Peter Kurth pointed out, Alexandra had serious problems, and a surviving Anastasia would have witnessed the murder of her whole family.  Would you expect the daughter of a disturbed mother who'd survived a massacre to be, uh...normal?   ::)

I didn't even take the DNA alone as proof that AA wasn't Anastasia.  It was that combined with a lot of other factors which convinced me.  If AA wasn't Anastasia, I accept the story of two bodies being burned, one being Alexis and the other either Anastasia or Maria, rather than Anastasia surviving (at least for long) because, for one, it is so unlikely anyone would be allowed to survive, and for two, anyone more likely than Anna Anderson, who had so many characteristics of Anastasia, would have been accepted and brought forward to disprove AA, unless the real Anastasia was too raving starkers to do anything for herself.

This means, though, that as far as people claiming to see a wounded grand duchess after the execution, either:
1.  It was a complete lie.
2.  It was a mistake and they saw someone else--maybe the people responsible for the rumors were even crafty enough to provide decoys, which would explain the stories about some of the IF being seen alive after the execution.
3.  It was true but she died or was killed soon afterwards.  (As in the case of John Wilkes Booth.  Few people dispute the man killed in the barn was not him, but that doesn't amount to long-term survival.)

Undoubtedly many people were outraged at Alexandra and blamed her for various of the country's problems, but the only reason I've ever seen for anyone killing the children is simply to prevent any possibility of heirs.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on May 09, 2006, 06:15:17 PM
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Just for the record, I do not believe her story on Felix at all. I don't think he'd do that, and IF he did, surely it would have been heard and seen by many and the cops or at least security would have been called. No one other than AA ever saw this happen, because it didn't. It only happened in her mind.


[size=14]Is this the story which ends with Anderson/Schanzkowska running screaming down the stairs into a room or a lobby full of people? Full of people who did not see or hear her...  ;D[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 14, 2006, 12:23:28 AM
Monsieur Gilliard objected that Anna Anderson didn't know French when the Grand Duchesses had learned it, but did he also claim they didn't learn German?  Wasn't the Grand Duchesses' mother raised with German as a first language, and they used it at home and had Russian as a second language?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 14, 2006, 06:09:50 AM
I thought Alexandra's language of choice was English and that the GD's spoke that with her.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 14, 2006, 08:34:53 AM
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Monsieur Gilliard objected that Anna Anderson didn't know French when the Grand Duchesses had learned it, but did he also claim they didn't learn German?  Wasn't the Grand Duchesses' mother raised with German as a first language, and they used it at home and had Russian as a second language?

No, English was Alexandra's language of choice, her diaries and letters are all in English. Her mother was English and she had British nannies. She was fluent in German as well of course but English was more her 'first' language. She and Nicholas always spoke it to each other and she did speak it with the children. The children spoke Russian when with Nicholas alone. The children also had English nannies. It was determined later that the children were taught German, though it was the least known of their four languages behind the first two and French. It could be that Gilliard didn't know about the German lessons, or he forgot. I do believe him when he said he never heard a word of German spoken by the family. Even the German relations (Ella, the Kaiser, Ernie, etc.) spoke to and wrote to the family in English.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 14, 2006, 09:05:02 AM
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I do believe him when he said he never heard a word of German spoken by the family.

I do as well. Surely if AN had survived she would have spoken in a language she knew fluently. I know she refused to speak Russian but surely she would have then spoken English, a language she knew fluently rather than German a language she knew the least well.
The fact that AA could speak German well makes no sense if she were AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 14, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
The problem was, AA did NOT speak German well, she had a terrible grammar and a poor vocabulary, at least to begin with. Her accent was so audibly Russian that the Berlin police called her "die unbekannte Russin". (The unknown Russian woman.)
As for Gilliard, he had the Grand Duchesses scheduled for German lessons even in Tobolsk, something his schedules clearly show. These schedules are now kept by the University of Lausanne.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 14, 2006, 12:17:50 PM
Yes, but the point IS:

AN didn't know German well at all.  She knew THREE, count them, THREE languages better than she knew German.  So, if AA was AN, why would she have chosen to speak in the language she knew least well?

German was NEVER spoken in the family.  The girls may have been taught it (clearly not very regularly as they did not have a regular, well known German tutor the way they had Russian, English and French ones) but they never had reason to speak it at home.  They spoke Russian with their father, English with their mother, and French when necessary, I presume.  German was not a language regularly used and not a language AN would have known well enough to CHOOSE to speak over English, Russian and French.

So, whether Anna Anderson spoke bad German with a 'Russian' accent or not, the fact remains that AN knew three languages better than German so it's completely improbable that she would have chosen to speak in German.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ivan Komarov on May 14, 2006, 10:09:35 PM
That's a good point, Ra-Ra-Rasputin.  It doesn't make much sense that the children never had a need to speak German (considering Alix was mostly German - or at least I'm pretty sure she was, correct me if I'm horribly in error).  However, your statement about how they didn't and how Anna Anderson did makes beautifully perfect sense...

Besides, if Anna Anderson was really Franziska what's-her-face, who was Polish, speaking German would also make sense, right?  Well, um...let's just leave it at that I agree with you.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 15, 2006, 12:37:16 AM
But isn't it kind of interesting that after a fall into the Landwehr Canal, FS emerged speaking bad German instead of good, and with a Russian accent?

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 15, 2006, 03:44:08 AM
If the real Anastasia spoke Russian, English, French, and German, and Anna Anderson spoke only German until she had a chance to learn the others, and then not as well as Anastasia knew them, that is a big strike against Anna Anderson.  Whoever she was, she would have had to have enough knowledge of Russian accents to at least fake one reasonably well--and what reason would she have to do so, if this was before she met the people who suggested she impersonate Anastasia?

I am learning a lot here.  I'd read parts of Robert Massie's book but didn't go through all the footnotes and such things, and assumed he somehow had access to translations of materials in several languages, when in fact many original materials were in English.  It will also make watching "Nicholas and Alexandra" again interesting, as I'd always assumed "what they were saying would sound different in their own language."  It would seem not--if they really spoke English with proper British accents, the actors were right on.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 15, 2006, 08:28:27 AM
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If the real Anastasia spoke Russian, English, French, and German, and Anna Anderson spoke only German until she had a chance to learn the others, and then not as well as Anastasia knew them, that is a big strike against Anna Anderson.

I think so too. AN spoke good Russian and English and decent French, not much German. AA spoke German best, and not much if any of the others (though there are reports of her speaking Russian in her sleep at the asylum I think this was most likely her own Polish dialect mistaken for Russian by German speakers who didn't know the difference) This was a major blow to AA's case for me.

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 Whoever she was, she would have had to have enough knowledge of Russian accents to at least fake one reasonably well--and what reason would she have to do so, if this was before she met the people who suggested she impersonate Anastasia?

We really don't know what she knew before the girl in the asylum showed her the magazines and suggested she was Tatiana (she changed to Anastasia after Sophie B. prounounced her too short to be AN!) I am sure she was coached for years, a la 'My Fair Lady.'

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I am learning a lot here.

Me too. As a former at least partial believer in AA who accepted but didn't want to believe the DNA, the final nails have been driven into my last vestige of faint belief by the things I have learned here, details I hadn't known or thought of before, and the explainations by those who understand DNA. I had a lot of "OOOHHH so THAT'S what happened' moments as I figured out reasonable explainations for all the questions I had left. Now there are none. AA was FS.

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 I'd read parts of Robert Massie's book but didn't go through all the footnotes and such things, and assumed he somehow had access to translations of materials in several languages, when in fact many original materials were in English.  It will also make watching "Nicholas and Alexandra" again interesting, as I'd always assumed "what they were saying would sound different in their own language."  It would seem not--if they really spoke English with proper British accents, the actors were right on.

Yes I found that cool too! All Alexandra's diaries and letters were in English. She and Nicholas did speak English to each other with proper British accents. I read in a book that when in England, Nicholas was often mistaken for his first cousin, George V, because he looked and sounded like him. (their mothers were sisters) So yes those actors are right on! They look like them, too, and the costumes are great.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 15, 2006, 09:00:35 AM
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Me too. As a former at least partial believer in AA who accepted but didn't want to believe the DNA, the final nails have been driven into my last vestige of faint belief by the things I have learned here, details I hadn't known or thought of before, and the explainations by those who understand DNA. I had a lot of "OOOHHH so THAT'S what happened' moments as I figured out reasonable explainations for all the questions I had left. Now there are none. AA was FS.

This is one reason I'm glad I found this board. Before reading the survivors threads I had only read Kurth's book, which while very good I felt was unfair to Olga and Gilliard. This board has provided me with so much more info.

I have a question, probably one that's been answered before but did Gilliard's wife believe AA? I know she cried after AA asked her to rub perfum on her forehead but did she denounce AA as Gilliard did?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 15, 2006, 11:22:24 AM
I believe Shura also came to the conclusion that AA was not AN, yes.

Both she and Pierre Gilliard were initially quite favourable, according to Peter Kurth, but they soon came to realise that AA was not AN, and that they'd let their emotions and wishful thinking get the better of them.

If you listen to the AA supporters, they claim Gilliard was 'paid off' by Grand Duke Ernest, Alexandra's brother, to say that AA wasn't AN, but this is a load of codswallop and nothing but an attempt to place doubt on Gilliard's rather vocal claims of AA's status as a fraud.  If anyone would accept AA from the servants, it would have been Gilliard and Shura.  And if anyone would know AN, it would be Gilliard and Shura.  Gilliard saw them as late as in Tobolsk, so he would have known if AA was AN.  He said she wasn't, I believe him.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 15, 2006, 01:32:58 PM
I don't know if Shura officially denounced her, but she never again mentioned supporting her, either. I'm sure she was heartbroken and disappointed, but as Ra Ra said their emotions overtook them at first until they got their senses back. This happens, as I explained about my friend and the lost dog she claimed as hers but turned out not to be.

I don't know why anyone would think that Ernie had enough money to 'pay off' anyone. He had lost his title and most of his fortune in the war. What he allegedly would have paid surely couldn't have been as much as Gilliard could have been promised by AA's supporters (a cut of that nonexistent massive fortune allegedly in the bank) It's also interesting to note that Ernie died in 1937, a year before the trial even began, yet Gilliard continued to testify against AA until the late 50's. Who paid him then? Ernie's family died in a private plane crash in 1937 (maybe sabotaged by AA supporters, if you want to get into conspiracies? Also, Gilliard was horribly injured in a car crash on his way home from testifying in the AA trial in 1958, and though he lived until 1962 he never fully recovered. Conspiracy again? ;) No I'm not saying I believe these, only pointing out how accusations can easily go both ways!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 15, 2006, 04:43:55 PM
Quote
If you listen to the AA supporters, they claim Gilliard was 'paid off' by Grand Duke Ernest, Alexandra's brother, to say that AA wasn't AN, but this is a load of codswallop and nothing but an attempt to place doubt on Gilliard's rather vocal claims of AA's status as a fraud.

I hate these speculations that Gilliard was paid off and Olga denounced due to family pressure. Both were hoping that Anastasia had survived and both were convinced that AA was not AN. Why was it that everyone that denounced her had some ulterior motive and her supporters were above reproach?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 15, 2006, 10:02:24 PM
Quote
 
I think so too. AN spoke good Russian and English and decent French, not much German. AA spoke German best, and not much if any of the others (though there are reports of her speaking Russian in her sleep at the asylum I think this was most likely her own Polish dialect mistaken for Russian by German speakers who didn't know the difference) This was a major blow to AA's case for me.

A nurse, Erna Bucholz from Libau, a former language teacher who had lived in Russia and spoke Russian, states that the patient "talked Russian like a native, not like a foreigner who has learnt the language later in life. And when talking German, she gave certain words the harsh Russian stress on the final syllable. In my presence she never spoke anything but Russian and German. Nor have I ever heard her utter a word of Polish...."
It was also reported by Professor Rudnev that she raved in English under anaesthesic

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 15, 2006, 10:11:24 PM
Quote
I don't know why anyone would think that Ernie had enough money to 'pay off' anyone. He had lost his title and most of his fortune in the war.

While at Seeon, staff writer Lucke with the Berliner Nachtausgabe admitted to the Duchess of Leuchtenberg that Hardenberg (Uncle Ernies Grand Marshall) had paid out 20,000 or 25,000 marks to get his case proved. (This emerges from a letter her lawyer sent that October to the Tägliche Rundschau; she was unable to remember which of the sums was mentioned.)
The truth about the strange collaboration between Gilliard and the former Grand Duke was lost forever when Gilliard destroyed his files on the case after the ruling of the High Court of West Berlin in 1957. Certainly the salary of a language professor at the University of Lausanne could not have compensated for the time and travel required over the next three years in the attempt to destroy AA.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 16, 2006, 04:14:23 AM
Quote
The truth about the strange collaboration between Gilliard and the former Grand Duke was lost forever when Gilliard destroyed his files on the case after the ruling of the High Court of West Berlin in 1957. Certainly the salary of a language professor at the University of Lausanne could not have compensated for the time and travel required over the next three years in the attempt to destroy AA

There is no proof that Gilliard's files would have contained any information on his dealings with the Grand Duke anyway. Surely Gilliard made an income from his book denouncing AA, couldn't that have supported his travel during the trial? And as Annie said, the Grand Duke was dead before the trial even began, how could he have provided Gilliard with money? Money that he probably didn't have when he was alive due to his loss of title etc?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 16, 2006, 08:53:43 AM
Quote
There is no proof that Gilliard's files would have contained any information on his dealings with the Grand Duke anyway. Surely Gilliard made an income from his book denouncing AA, couldn't that have supported his travel during the trial? And as Annie said, the Grand Duke was dead before the trial even began, how could he have provided Gilliard with money? Money that he probably didn't have when he was alive due to his loss of title etc?

I am not talking about his travelling to Hamburg to testify at the trial, I am referring to all the travel back and forth to Darmstadt from Lausanne in the period when he wrote his book "The false Anastasia".  And if Grand Duke Ernie could shell out up to 25,000 marks to Martin Knopf, he could certainly have paid Gilliard also to help in the case of discrediting AA.
What is so puzzling here is: If AA was an impostor, why did the Grand Duke of Hesse invest so much time and money trying to prove it? Why not just laugh her out of town like any other impostor of the IF?

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 16, 2006, 09:18:32 AM
Quote

What is so puzzling here is: If AA was an impostor, why did the Grand Duke of Hesse invest so much time and money trying to prove it? Why not just laugh her out of town like any other impostor of the IF?

Kind regards
Chat Noir

I don't find this puzzling at all.

If someone was pretending to be my much loved niece, who had been killed and who I wanted people to remember as she was, not as some nutcase in a German lunatic asylum, I'd spend every single penny I had on trying to prove to people she was a fraud.

It's called love, ChatNoir. Clearly this is a concept you don't understand.  Ernst was very close to his nieces.  I'm not surprised he did everything he could to prove AA was a liar. Not everyone was in this for money.  Let us not forget that Anastasia was a REAL person, a girl who was loved by her family and friends, and those family and friends said AA wasn't Anastasia and did everything they could to prove it because they wanted to prevent the memory of the girl they loved being destroyed and sullied by the AA circus.  It's perfectly comprehensible to me why they were all so adamant to put a stop to AA's lies.  Wouldn't you do the same for a family member?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 16, 2006, 09:20:18 AM
Quote
If AA was an impostor, why did the Grand Duke of Hesse invest so much time and money trying to prove it? Why not just laugh her out of town like any other impostor of the IF?

As Ra-Ra Rasputin said they were understandably upset at their dead neice being impersonated by AA. If the Grand Duke had truly believed AA was AN he would have accepted her. The same with Gilliard. I don't believe either had an ulterior motive, if AA were AN why deny her?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 16, 2006, 10:02:19 AM
That's the way I saw it, too. Everyone disregards that Ernie and Olga were heartbroken by the tragic losses of their family members. Think about it, Ernie lost 4 neices, a nephew and two sisters, Olga lost both her brothers and OTMAA. If that weren't enough to deal with the imposters were another dagger in their hearts, sand rubbed into their wounds. They wanted them exposed and stopped so they'd go away and stop hurting them, and stop exploiting the tragic deaths of their relatives for money! Why were they so hard on AA? She was the most pushy one, the one with obvious backing and support, and the one with the lawsuit. Royal or not, it bothers me to see Olga and Ernie's feelings disregarded like this. Their credibility had to be destroyed, since they 'knew too much' about AN. How sad.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 16, 2006, 10:13:12 AM
Quote
That's the way I saw it, too. Everyone disregards that Ernie and Olga were heartbroken by the tragic losses of their family members. Think about it, Ernie lost 4 neices, a nephew and two sisters, Olga lost both her brothers and OTMAA. If that weren't enough to deal with the imposters were another dagger in their hearts, sand rubbed into their wounds. They wanted them exposed and stopped so they'd go away and stop hurting them, and stop exploiting the tragic deaths of their relatives for money! Why were they so hard on AA? She was the most pushy one, the one with obvious backing and support, and the one with the lawsuit. Royal or not, it bothers me to see Olga and Ernie's feelings disregarded like this. Their credibility had to be destroyed, since they 'knew too much' about AN. How sad.

Exactly.  I cannot imagine the pain of losing two sisters, two brothers and five nephews and nieces in one fell swoop.  

How people can even think that they were discrediting AA for monetary purposes is beyond me.  Olga and Ernie were PEOPLE with FEELINGS.  They acted to protect those they loved who could no longer protect themselves.  

Chat Noir does not seem to understand this.  Perhaps he, and not Ernie and Olga, is the one with a heart of stone?  :o

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 16, 2006, 10:14:41 AM
Quote
Royal or not, it bothers me to see Olga and Ernie's feelings disregarded like this. Their credibility had to be destroyed, since they 'knew too much' about AN. How sad

Olga, Ernie and Gilliard. All three have been accused of lying and being paid off or bowing to family pressure, yet there isn't a shread of evidence to support these accusations. Olga was clearly distressed by having to see AA and finding out that AA wasn't her beloved neice. On top of this distress she was then accused of being blackmailed by her family/paid off to denounce AA.
I truly pity Olga, Ernie and Gilliard in this affair, like Annie said they lost so much and then were branded liars or greedy.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 16, 2006, 11:00:20 AM
Yes, Gilliard too. They did it to stop AA because she wasn't AN, not that there was anything in it for them. Ernie died before the trial, Olga was a 'black sheep' of the family with a 'wrong' marriage who lived modestly and died in a one room apt. over a barber shop. She sure didn't look 'paid off' to me. And since no money ever materialized, the 'paid off' theory is even less valid.

On the other hand, many of the same people who call Olga, Gilliard and Ernie greedy liars have a royal fit if you even suggest one of her supporters, such as Gleb Botkin, was feeding her info and helping her case. They will rant on and about there being no proof (there wouldn't be, now, would there? Who's going to sign a piece of paper saying "I helped AA in a fraudulent claim'?) yet they continue to speculate and convict those who denied AA. Such hypocrisy. They only accept the things they want to hear.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 16, 2006, 11:19:19 AM
Quote
On the other hand, many of the same people who call Olga, Gilliard and Ernie greedy liars have a royal fit if you even suggest one of her supporters, such as Gleb Botkin, was feeding her info and helping her case. They will rant on and about there being no proof

I think that is incredibly unfair. They claim there is no proof to suspect Botkin yet they use non-exsistant proof to convict Gilliard, Olga and Ernie. I think it's quite callous to paint these people, without evidence, as liars whilst they were mourning the destruction of not only their family, but the only world they knew. I think they're determinism to reveal AA as fraud isn't suspect but rather shows just how sure they were that AA was not AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 16, 2006, 02:23:06 PM
It's not fair, and it's very sad.

Since we know now from the DNA that she wasn't AN, we know that someone had to have helped her fake it all those years. While I am not saying they were the first or the only by far, I strongly suspect the Botkins. They knew AN, and had the intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and palace life to give her the half baked, sporatic 'memories' she'd come up with. It's often stated that she never met Gleb before 1928, but this doesn't mean they weren't in contact some other way. There are pictures of AA and Tatiana Botkin together dated 1926!

I checked out both Kurth's and Lovell's books from the library today, I will be posting more on this subject. I find it very interesting to read them again now that I no longer have any belief in AA. When I read them the first time, it was a mystery. Now I know the truth, and the biggest mystery is HOW she did it and WHO helped her.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on May 16, 2006, 02:34:00 PM
There is no more fanatic than the convert....................
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Rebecca on May 16, 2006, 03:21:53 PM
Ra-Ra-Rasputin, Annie and OlgaNRomanovaFan, I would just like to say that I agree with everything you say.

I too would be interested in knowing how Anna Anderson managed to pull off this enormous scam, and who helped her, but also WHY they decided to help somebody they surely must have known was an imposter.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 16, 2006, 03:33:47 PM
Quote
Ra-Ra-Rasputin, Annie and OlgaNRomanovaFan, I would just like to say that I agree with everything you say.

I too would be interested in knowing how Anna Anderson managed to pull off this enormous scam, and who helped her, but also WHY they decided to help somebody they surely must have known was an imposter.

I also would be very interested in how they achieved this and why they did it. I could only guess money or perhaps fame by proxy. Though there may have been other reasons.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 16, 2006, 07:52:56 PM
Quote
There is no more fanatic than the convert....................

I'm not sure this characterization is quite fair, Phil. Many of us believed AA at one time and changed our minds based upon newer evidence. I don't think that makes the majority of us fanatics at all.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 17, 2006, 02:44:05 AM
As I said before, I will say again:  there's a book in this for anyone possessing the time, interest, and patience.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2006, 09:46:19 AM
Quote
It's not fair, and it's very sad.

Since we know now from the DNA that she wasn't AN, we know that someone had to have helped her fake it all those years. While I am not saying they were the first or the only by far, I strongly suspect the Botkins. They knew AN, and had the intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and palace life to give her the half baked, sporatic 'memories' she'd come up with. It's often stated that she never met Gleb before 1928, but this doesn't mean they weren't in contact some other way. There are pictures of AA and Tatiana Botkin together dated 1926!

I checked out both Kurth's and Lovell's books from the library today, I will be posting more on this subject. I find it very interesting to read them again now that I no longer have any belief in AA. When I read them the first time, it was a mystery. Now I know the truth, and the biggest mystery is HOW she did it and WHO helped her.


Annie,  it's so good to read that you've gotten Kurth and Lovell's books to reread.  When you get to the information about AA's trial,  could you quote the part where Gilliard admits that he destroyed evidence which he could not present to the court when it was requested.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 17, 2006, 10:21:26 AM
[size=10]I had the book on hand, as I am re-reading it. I found the excerpt, Gilliard never says he destroyed the evidence, just that he didn't have it. [There may be more on this I haven't looked through the book properly again.][/size]

[size=10]"But now the judges did turn their attention to the contents of 'The False Anastasia.' They wanted to examine the original documentation - above all, the excited letter Shura Gilliard had recieved in 1925 from Grand Duchess Olga, the letter that had first moved the Gilliards to visit Anastasia in Berlin.
"I don't have it anymore"
Then what about Gilliard's correspondance with the Duke of Leuchtenberg: "Is it true that you failed to reply to three of his letters?"
"Yes...no...I don't know anymore.'
The correspondance with Harriet Von Ratlef?
"No I have nothing."
With Grand Duke Andrew?
"I have not spoken to him since the Revolution."
[/size]

[size=10]From Anastasia, Peter Kurth, pages 380 - 381 in the edition published in 1985.[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 17, 2006, 01:29:34 PM
[size=10]Dear OlganRomanovFan,

In any court of law, when a judge, or judges, wish to examine original documentation, this is just what is needed. Originals! One either complies with the court and the judge, or one has in effect, by not bringing them that needed presentation of original documentation, it is then considered destroyed. Saying to the court you don't remember, or don't have it does not let you off the hook.Either way to evade producing the documents, in the courts eye, and that of the judge 'one is evading justice', so to speak. It seems to me that all of these were very important documents, and would for the owners have special meaning. I don't know why they would have been discarded so quickly.

I am not getting into the personal issues of these particular personas, just an overall understanding of what and how courts and judges think and act.

Tatiana+ [/size]


Quote
[size=10]I had the book on hand, as I am re-reading it. I found the excerpt, Gilliard never says he destroyed the evidence, just that he didn't have it. [There may be more on this I haven't looked through the book properly again.][/size]

[size=10]"But now the judges did turn their attention to the contents of 'The False Anastasia.' They wanted to examine the original documentation - above all, the excited letter Shura Gilliard had recieved in 1925 from Grand Duchess Olga, the letter that had first moved the Gilliards to visit Anastasia in Berlin.
"I don't have it anymore"
Then what about Gilliard's correspondance with the Duke of Leuchtenberg: "Is it true that you failed to reply to three of his letters?"
"Yes...no...I don't know anymore.'
The correspondance with Harriet Von Ratlef?
"No I have nothing."
With Grand Duke Andrew?
"I have not spoken to him since the Revolution."
[/size]

[size=10]From Anastasia, Peter Kurth, pages 380 - 381 in the edition published in 1985.[/size]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 17, 2006, 02:36:51 PM
Quote
"Yes...no...I don't know anymore.'

 Sounds much more like a very weary, confused and forgetful 80-ish man than anyone with a sinister plot to destroy AA!

I know old people who get like that, and have accidently tossed out treasured family pictures, remembered it and regretted it, forgot again and looked for them, blamed someone else for tossing them, on and on.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 17, 2006, 03:04:39 PM
Hello AGBear, : )

Sorry for asking, but my math is a bit rusty. Your great in fact finding, and I thought i would ask you.At the time of the court proceedings when Monsieur Gilliard was summoned to court, what was his exact age? I read from one poster here on the AP Forum Monsieur Gilliard was in his 60's. [I'm in my early 60's and would hate to think this is taken as advanced age.... ;D] I don't recall his being in his 80's at all. Do you know his age ? Thanks for any light you can shed on this issue.

Tatiana+


Quote
Quote
It's not fair, and it's very sad.

Since we know now from the DNA that she wasn't AN, we know that someone had to have helped her fake it all those years. While I am not saying they were the first or the only by far, I strongly suspect the Botkins. They knew AN, and had the intimate yet limited knowledge of the family and palace life to give her the half baked, sporatic 'memories' she'd come up with. It's often stated that she never met Gleb before 1928, but this doesn't mean they weren't in contact some other way. There are pictures of AA and Tatiana Botkin together dated 1926!

I checked out both Kurth's and Lovell's books from the library today, I will be posting more on this subject. I find it very interesting to read them again now that I no longer have any belief in AA. When I read them the first time, it was a mystery. Now I know the truth, and the biggest mystery is HOW she did it and WHO helped her.


Annie,  it's so good to read that you've gotten Kurth and Lovell's books to reread.  When you get to the information about AA's trial,  could you quote the part where Gilliard admits that he destroyed evidence which he could not present to the court when it was requested.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 17, 2006, 03:27:53 PM
Quote

Sorry for asking, but my math is a bit rusty. Your great in fact finding, and I thought i would ask you.At the time of the court proceedings when Monsieur Gilliard was summoned to court, what was his exact age? I read from one poster here on the AP Forum Monsieur Gilliard was in his 60's. [I'm in my early 60's and would hate to think this is taken as advanced age.... ;D] I don't recall his being in his 80's at all. Do you know his age ? Thanks for any light you can shed on this issue.

Tatiana+

Pierre Gilliard was born in 1879. The quote in question was made during the 1958 trial. This made him 79 years old, which is indeed '80-ish'.

I believe someone else said Gilliard was badly injured in a car crash on his way home from the trial, and while he lived another 4 years, never fully recovered.


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 17, 2006, 04:27:45 PM
I was wrong, Gilliard did actually admit to destroying the documents in the same testimony :

"In 'The False Anastasia'" said the Judge to Gilliard, 'you published certain photographs and handwriting specimens. We would like to see the originals. If you don't have them with you, the tribunal asks that they be sent.'
Gilliard fairly cried the words: 'I don't have them anymore! They're burned! I destroyed them. I have nothing anymore."


Peter Kurth; Anastasia. Page 381 of the edition published in 1985.

And Gilliard was indeed injured in a car crash. From Kurth again:

The court never heard another word from Pierre Gilliard. On his return to Lausanne he suffered an automobile accident. He never recovered from his injuries and died four years later, in 1962.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 17, 2006, 08:53:11 PM
In 1933, the Central District Court in Berlin, at the instance of the Countess Brassova, the widow of the Tsar's brother Michael, ruled for the first time that all of Nicholas II's children were dead and that his collateral heirs - Countess Brassova; the Grand Duchesses Xenia and Olga; the Grand Duke of Hesse and the Empress's sisters Victoria and Irene - were thus entitled to anything that remained of his property in Germany. After this ruling, Gilliard allegedly burnt his papers. That should put him at 54 years old. Hardly too old to burn his archives by mistake.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 17, 2006, 09:22:43 PM
But he was 79 when he said 'yes no I don't know anymore' which means he didn't really remember what he did back then. You can't even prove he really burned them.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 17, 2006, 11:29:09 PM
Quote
But he was 79 when he said 'yes no I don't know anymore' which means he didn't really remember what he did back then. You can't even prove he really burned them.

Annie, if you read the above posts, you will see that he admitted in court to having burnt his records. We have been through this before, don't you remember? AA's memory is always in question; now don't tell me that you have forgotten what that we talked about just a couple of months ago.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 18, 2006, 01:56:22 AM
Thanks ChatNoir for saving me the time it would have taken me to find this same conversation we did have a couple of months ago, which wasn't the first time.  I'm not even sure how many times we have discussed this same subject.

And, thankyou OlgaNRomanovaFan for finding the information and giving us the source.

Annie,  I have no information as to Gilliard's memory being good or bad at the age of 79 when he testitifed in AA's trial.  You can tell everyone that his memory was terrible based on his age but be honest,  you really don't know if it was.

 
AGRBear

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 18, 2006, 03:23:04 AM
Does it really matter whether Pierre Gilliard burned papers or not?

If AA was AN, he had no reason not to accept her.

If he says she wasn't, she wasn't.

Why carry on with this merry go round?

By claiming that Olga, Ernie, Pierre Gilliard, etc, would knowingly turn their back on someone they had loved, for no real reason, you're saying that their behaviour goes against human nature.  

An aunt and uncle WOULD NOT turn their back on their own niece, who had no parents and siblings left.  Unless of course you're suggesting that both Ernie and Olga, and of course Xenia, and the Aunts Irene and Victoria, were all cruel, cold hearted people? I find that hard to believe myself.  Surely at least ONE of them would have taken AA in if they HONESTLY believed her to be AN.  But none of them did.  Which suggests that, surprisingly enough, they really didn't think AA was AN, and they were proven right, weren't they? And, none of these most high profile detractors recieved any financial reward for saying AA was not AN.  Maybe, just maybe...and I know this is hard for some people to understand...they were telling the truth? Shocking a concept as that is, let's not rule it out altogether.

So, really, someone please tell me, because I'm dying to know, where is the conspiracy here? I'm looking, but all I see is a woman claiming she was someone she wasn't, and people who knew the person she was claiming to be saying that she wasn't that person.  Also, I see DNA test results that prove the people who said she wasn't who she was claiming to be were right.

So, once again; why does it matter whether Pierre Gilliard burned papers? He was right; AA wasn't AN. Therefore, the papers he burned don't really have much relevance, do they? I don't know why he burned papers, and I'm not in a position to speculate as to why, because I don't have sufficient knowledge of Pierre Gilliard's involvement in the case.  However, even if he did, the outcome still remains the same; he was right, AA wasn't AN.  So...whatever was in those papers can't have been particularly damaging in the first place, can it?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 18, 2006, 04:56:18 AM
I agree with Ra-Ra-Rasputin. The fact that he burned his papers doesn't detract from the fact that he, Olga and Ernie, three people who would have known AN, did not recognise AA as her.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2006, 05:54:39 AM
And I can't understand what it was that was allegedly supposed to make them deny her! Promise of money? From WHO?! It doesn't make sense.

Exhibit A: Gilliard was accused of being paid off by Ernie. Yet Ernie, and his family died in 1937, a year before the trial began! His palace was destroyed by allied bombing during WWII, so there was no one to pay him and no estate to suck off of! I don't know why anyone can't just accept that Gilliard fought AA BECAUSE SHE REALLY WASN'T ANASTASIA!! Especially since the DNA tests have proven him correct! If he did burn the papers, maybe it was because he was sick and tired of being hounded about the whole affair!

Exhibit B: Olga gets accused of denying her niece for money. WHAT MONEY??!! The woman didn't have anything! What little was left from Nicholas and Marie F. went to Xenia and her large family, and even she wasn't rich. Frogmore cottage is hardly a palace! Olga, having an 'unequal' marriage, was the black sheep of the family. She lived on a dirt farm, and died in a one bedroom apt. in Canada. Gee whiz she sure sounds 'paid off' for her denial ::) Have some common sense here, would she really have turned her back on her beloved niece, after the tragedy of losing NAOTMAA and Micsha, for a few measely coins to live the way she did? Oh please give me a break! And don't you think the REAL AN, IF AA were her (which she wasn't) could have set her up much better once she inherited that phantom fortune rumored to exist? Wouldn't it have made much more sense for Olga to claim her than to deny her? Ever consider the denied her BECAUSE SHE WASN'T REALLY ANASTASIA??!! Especially since DNA tests have proven her right?!

I agree with Ra Ra, it's all a ridiculous conspiracy theory that has no basis and makes no sense! It's only desperation by AA supporters trying to discredit them because they knew too much. So sad, especially after the tragic losses they had suffered.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: hg123 on May 18, 2006, 10:47:56 AM
I agree with every of your words, Annie, but I just want to add how disrespectful I find this towards the GD Olga. What has this woman ever done to deserve being accused that she denied her niece for money? I can understand if people have doubts regarding, for example, Felix Yusupov's opinion about AA. Not that Felix ever seemed to have cared that much for money (in fact, his honest generousity, even during the exile, when he nearly gave more than he actually possesed, seems to be his biggest redeeming quality), but he is a pretty big liar and it is therefore not surprising, that people might think he lied here as well. But the GD Olga, who, as far as I can tell, seemed to be one of the nicest members of the whole family, and more than this, was a close friend and confidante for her nieces? I honestly find some of the accusations made against her pure slander. Is there anything, *anything* to suggest, that she wouldn't be overjoyed to have at least one member of Nichola's family back. Particularly since she was one of the Romanovs closest to them.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 18, 2006, 11:50:11 AM
Quote
But the GD Olga, who, as far as I can tell, seemed to be one of the nicest members of the whole family, and more than this, was a close friend and confidante for her nieces? I honestly find some of the accusations made against her pure slander. Is there anything, *anything* to suggest, that she wouldn't be overjoyed to have at least one member of Nichola's family back. Particularly since she was one of the Romanovs closest to them.

Exactly! Anastasia was Olga's favourite niece what possible motive would she have to deny her? Plus nothing in Olga's behaviour before or after the AA affair has ever proven her to be decietful or so callous as to deny a relative.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 18, 2006, 10:05:30 PM
Let's take a look at what Aunt Olga said and wrote on the matter, according to witnesses:

During the visit to the Mommsen clinic, Grand Duchess Olga called Harriet von Rathlef out onto the balcony: "Our little one and Shura seem very happy to have found one another again. If I had any money, I would do everything for the little one, but I haven't any and must earn  my own pocket money by painting. I am so happy that I came, and I did it even though Mamma did not want me to, She was so angry with me when I came. And then my sister (Grand Duchess Xenia) wired me from England saying that under no circumstances should I come to see the little one."

To Herluf Zahle she said: "My reason cannot grasp it, but my heart tells me that the little one is Anastasia. And because I have been raised in a faith which teaches me to follow my heart before my reason, I must believe that she is."

Major-General Alexander Spiridovitch, the former chief of the Tsar's secret police, saw a letter Olga had sent to her mother's secretary in Denmark immediately after her first visit to Anastasia: "Poor Mamma, how am I supposed to tell her? It will kill her."

Letter from Grand Duchess Olga to Herluf Zahle, October 31, 1925:

Dear Mr. Zahle,
I and my husband want to express to you and your wife our very warmest thanks for your hospitality.
I have had very long conversations with my mother and U[ncle] Valdemar all about our poor little friend. I can't tell you how fond I got of her- whoever she is. My feeling is that she is not the one she believes - but one can't say she is not as a fact - as there are still many strange and inexplicable facts not cleared up [Olga's emphasis]. How is she after our departure? I have sent her a postcard and shall write from time to time so that she may feel we are near her. Once more let me thank you both.
With best wishes to you, your wife, Britta and her governess, I remain yours most gratefully and affectionately,
Olga

Then followed five notes to AA, some presents consisting of Olga's  personal things, among them a personal photo album.

From Herluf Zahle's explanation to Prince Ferderick of Saxe-Altenburg: Grand Duchess Olga, during the second consultation with the Dowager Empress, was so nervous that she never took her eyes off her embroidery. When Zahle asked the Empress to consider how it would look to the world and to history if everything were not done that could be done to clear up this case, the Empress replied only: 'My daughter Olga tells me this woman is not my granddaughter".
And from the Zahle questionnaire: "Did Grand Duchess Olga's behavior [at this meeting] give Excellency Zahle the impression that she was deeply shamed by the contradiction between her behavior after her visit to the claimant in Berlin, when the Grand Duchess took the identity of the claimant with her niece to be as good as certain, and her subsequent denial of that identity in the press?"

Two weeks after Olga's denial of Anastasia in the Danish newspaper, National Tidende, Gilliard confessed that he talked her into it.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 19, 2006, 03:48:09 AM
Oh come on.

If Olga really believed AA was her niece, she would have taken her in.

There is NO reason why Olga would not have accepted AA if she honestly thought she was Anastasia.  No reason whatsoever.

So please, stop trying to discredit these people.  If your family got killed and you were the only survivor, do you really think your own aunts and uncles would turn you away? No.  Of course not.  So why do you think the same of Olga, Ernie, Irene and Victoria?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Mazukov on May 19, 2006, 05:23:56 AM
It's simple really as to why Olga didn't take AA in. because she was not AN
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 19, 2006, 06:47:16 AM
Quote

...[in part]....

Two weeks after Olga's denial of Anastasia in the Danish newspaper, National Tidende, Gilliard confessed that he talked her into it.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Where did you find this bit of information?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 19, 2006, 09:05:14 AM
From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson":
Under the circumstances, Gilliard had the right to do anything he pleased. "It was I who persuaded Grand Duchess Olga to issue the denial which appeared in the Danish Press....," he admitted some months later, and indeed, Gilliard clung steadfastly to his new position as Witness Number One against her.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 09:23:15 AM
What incentive would Olga have for denying AA if she were AN? If she believed AA were AN I doubt Gilliard would have been able to persuade her otherwise. She clearly was not given money as she died in an apartment above a barbershop. What possible reason would she, or Gilliard for that matter have to deny her if they believed her to be AN?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 19, 2006, 09:59:56 AM
Quote
What incentive would Olga have for denying AA if she were AN? If she believed AA were AN I doubt Gilliard would have been able to persuade her otherwise. She clearly was not given money as she died in an apartment above a barbershop. What possible reason would she, or Gilliard for that matter have to deny her if they believed her to be AN?

There isn't a good reason.  This is why these claims are all so ridiculous.

The reason Olga, Gilliard, Irene, Volkov, etc, denied AA was because...drumroll please...she WASN'T AN. The sooner people accept this and stop trying to come up with absurd and motiveless conspiracy theories, the better.

Peter Kurth can give us sources from his own book until the cows come home; AA wasn't AN, and that's that.  Case closed.  Three little letters; D, N and A, prove that without question.


Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 19, 2006, 10:03:23 AM
Quote
What incentive would Olga have for denying AA if she were AN? If she believed AA were AN I doubt Gilliard would have been able to persuade her otherwise. She clearly was not given money as she died in an apartment above a barbershop. What possible reason would she, or Gilliard for that matter have to deny her if they believed her to be AN?

Perhaps everyone is thinking in the wrong box marked "personal reasons",  maybe, people, like Gilliard and Sokolov, were accomplishing the task of proving all of the IF were executed by the "evil" Bolsheviks for political reasons.   And,  they didn't want any loose ends, which caused rumors that one young GD escaped.

The Whites were fighting for their lives, property and old titles.  Outside of Russia most of them were refugees struggling to survive.

Once the Civil War was at and end,  the old timers continued to believe that one day the Bolsheviks would fall and they would return to Russia and take up their old titles, wipe themselves off and do what they had to do.

Gilliard and Sokolov lived in the same apartment for a time.  They probably pushed each other into believing that the world didn't need to know everything they knew.  It would just muddy the waters.

There was more at stake then AA and her claims.

I can almost hear someone saying,  "We're doing this for the greater good of our people and their future."

I remember hearing,  "This time,  it's true, the end justifies what we have to do to reclaim what is rightully ours."

What no one knew was,  the communists under Stalin would make sure the doors were closed to any Romanov who might get the bright idea to return and pick up where Nicholas II left off.....


I think,  politics is the key which unlocks many of the mysteries.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: hg123 on May 19, 2006, 10:11:06 AM
Quote
Perhaps everyone is thinking in the wrong box marked "personal reasons",  maybe, people, like Gilliard and Sokolov, were accomplishing the task of proving all of the IF were executed by the "evil" Bolsheviks for political reasons.   And,  they didn't want any loose ends, which caused rumors that one young GD escaped.

So if one of the victims had survived somehow, it would have made what the Bolsheviks did less evil? I don't think so.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 10:20:07 AM
Dear Chat Noir,

The phrasing is a bit awkward. Did Gilliard talk Olga into publishing a denial, or did he talk her into the denial itself? It isn't clear from the quote.

Olga refers to wanting to help the claimant, but that she only has "pocket money" from her painting. Doesn't that suggest that she would have given her a sum of money out of charity sparked by pity at the poor woman's condition --- which we know she felt? Olga thought that Andersen/Schanzkowska was being manipulated by those around her, but at the same time the Grand Duchess was very much alive to the physical misery of the woman claiming to be her niece. She behaved in similar fashion to Russian refugees in Denmark, and presumably didn't accept them as her relatives.

As far as Gilliard's behavior, was this a repetitive pattern? Did he travel around denouncing all of the claimants in an effort to keep the escape of the Grand Duchess a secret? Are we to assume that Gibbes, Buxhoeveden, and Xenia Alexandrovna were in on the secret, but Lili Dehn was not?



Simon

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 19, 2006, 10:21:56 AM
Quote
Quote
Perhaps everyone is thinking in the wrong box marked "personal reasons",  maybe, people, like Gilliard and Sokolov, were accomplishing the task of proving all of the IF were executed by the "evil" Bolsheviks for political reasons.   And,  they didn't want any loose ends, which caused rumors that one young GD escaped.

So if one of the victims had survived somehow, it would have made what the Bolsheviks did less evil? I don't think so.


If that is what you thought I meant,  then I didn't voice my thought very well.  

The sudden appearance of a real GD Duchess would cause people to rally around her.  Perhaps think of her as the possible Tsarina, who might be another Catherine II "The Great".  Women had always been well recieved as rulers of Russia.

Gotta run.

Add more later.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 10:32:14 AM
Quote
"It was I who persuaded Grand Duchess Olga to issue the denial which appeared in the Danish Press....,"

It does sound as if he persuaded her to make her denial public, rather than that he persuaded her to deny AA in the first place. I still think Olga made the decision of her own free will, she knew AA was not her neice.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 19, 2006, 10:37:52 AM
I can't see people who had been so close to the real Anastasia denying AA, if they honestly did think she was AN, for political reasons.

There are a lot of horrible people in the world, but I really can't see Olga, Irene, Ernie, Victoria, Gilliard, Shura, Empress Marie, etc, turning their back on AA if she was really AN, out of fear that it would make the Bolshies look less bad, or that it would cause a pro monarchy group to try and get her back on the throne.

I don't think we can ignore the personal side of this.  We're talking about an entire family turning their back on one of their own.  That doesn't happen.  Uncles and aunts don't deny their own niece.  Grandmothers don't refuse to see grandchildren unless they honestly believe the grandchild in question is an imposter.

These people we're talking about had FEELINGS just like us, and the same emotional ties to their families that we do.  If you wouldn't turn your back on a family member, what makes you think they would? Just because they had titles, it doesn't mean they were somehow less human.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 10:41:13 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Perhaps everyone is thinking in the wrong box marked "personal reasons",  maybe, people, like Gilliard and Sokolov, were accomplishing the task of proving all of the IF were executed by the "evil" Bolsheviks for political reasons.   And,  they didn't want any loose ends, which caused rumors that one young GD escaped.

So if one of the victims had survived somehow, it would have made what the Bolsheviks did less evil? I don't think so.


If that is what you thought I meant,  then I didn't voice my thought very well.  

The sudden appearance of a real GD Duchess would cause people to rally around her.  Perhaps think of her as the possible Tsarina, who might be another Catherine II "The Great".  Women had always been well recieved as rulers of Russia.

Gotta run.

Add more later.

AGRBear


Dear Bear,

There were at least two unquestionably "real" Grand Duchesses around, daughters of Alexander III. Nobody rallied around them. No one rallied around Grand Duke Nicholas. No one rallied around poor silly Kyril when he finally got around to proclaiming himself the Heir. I'm not sure how the appearance of a 20 year old girl largely unknown to the Russian people would have incited a surge of Tsarism.

The idea that Russians have been receptive to the idea of a ruling Tsaritsa is a little questionable as well. Was there widespread support for the repeal of Paul's ukase forbidding female accession?

I don't think that the lack of recognition had to be motivated by anything more complex than, well, the fact that they didn't recognize Andersen/Schanzkowska as the Grand Duchess. Some people did, and that also could be motivated by the fact that they, well . . . did.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 19, 2006, 10:42:05 AM
Quote
Quote
"It was I who persuaded Grand Duchess Olga to issue the denial which appeared in the Danish Press....,"

It does sound as if he persuaded her to make her denial public, rather than that he persuaded her to deny AA in the first place. I still think Olga made the decision of her own free will, she knew AA was not her neice.


Yes, that's what I understand it as too.

Chat Noir is putting a misleading spin on Gilliard's statement. He is suggesting that what Gilliard did was to persuade Olga to deny AA against her belief.

What he actually did, which is actually what he is saying, was to persuade her to place a PUBLIC denial.

There is a BIG difference in that.  Olga had clearly already made her mind up on the matter, but needed persuading to make her opinion public.  That was all.  Suggesting that Gilliard somehow pressured Olga into saying AA was AN against her will is very misleading and erroneous.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 19, 2006, 10:43:59 AM
Dear Simon,

It seems to me that Gilliard talked Grand Duchess Olga into going public with her denial of Anastasia. I wish I could explain all the inconsistencies in this tangled case, but I cannot. And my own speculations would not throw much light on the matter, so I try to stick to what has been presented as facts to see if anybody on the board can either refute them or present other facts still unknown to me. (Yes, Rachel and Annie, I know the DNA goes against everything, but there are still too many problems with the "AA being FS" theory.)
As for Gilliard, he apparently appointed himself an expert on the IF and unmasked both AA and a "Tsarevich". But why was it necessary to write a whole book about Anastasia, seemingly full of errors? Does it seem to anyone here that the gentleman protests a bit too much?

Kind regards'
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 10:54:02 AM
Just because Gilliard was persistant does not mean he lied or was part of a conspiracy..
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 19, 2006, 10:55:29 AM
Well, Gilliard did lie.

But, it's understandable.  Even people who are telling the truth can be tempted to elaborate details in order to make their case look stronger and ensure support.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 11:05:16 AM
You're right, he did lie *hits self in head.*

But the basis of his book and denial, underneath his elaborations was indeed true, AA was not AN. I really don't like this portrayal of Gilliard as a petty little man who is denying poor AA of her rightful claim. He knew she wasn't AA that's why he campaigned against her, he would never had denied her had she been AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 11:13:21 AM
Well, he could have been a petty little man and still campaigned against her. The fact that he didn't recognize her doesn't enoble him.

My impression of Gilliard (and that's all it is, my impression) is that he defined himself during this period of his life through his relationship with the Imperial Family. It gave him a cachet of tragedy and romance. He achieved recognition from the rest of the Romanovs, and was able to publish a book that sold. Lili Dehn did it as well, as did Sandro and assorted other "survivors". He married a woman who had also been close to the Family, and presumably dined out upon his imperial experiences for the rest of his life.

It doesn't mean that he was wrong when he failed to recognize Andersen/Schanzkowska, but it doesn't make him a saint.

Olga is a harder person to traduce. Am I the only one who notices a hint of desperation in the claim that she (1) recognized Andersen/Schanzkowska as her niece and (2) failed utterly to do anything for her?

Unlike Gilliard, she didn't lie. She never published anything until granting Voerres interviews shortly before her death. And she lived a life consistent with the persona she presented to the world.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 11:42:01 AM
I know it didn't make him a saint, but it's unfair that he is sometimes villified by AA supporters for not recognising her and accused of being paid off. He made a lot of mistakes, paticularly with the evidence in his book and the further destruction of said evidence.
I agree, I don't see how anyone could accuse Olga of lying and denying her favourite neice, it doesn't make sense.

Kurth writes that both sides of the AA issue were glad that Anna Vyrabova stayed away. Why was that? I know the pro AA side wanted her to stay away because she was close to AN and would likely have denied AA but why the anti-AA side? Wouldn't she have been a valuable witness for the people who denied AA?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 11:49:31 AM
I think Kurth is correct when he describes the abhorrence that survivors felt for Anna V. I strongly doubt that her endorsement/lack of endorsement for Andersen/Schanzkowska would have meant anything to people like Grand Duchess Xenia, for example.

But would would surely have carried weight during the German trials, wouldn't it?

I have a hard time with the failure of the "Anastasians" to bring the two women face-to-face. If they contacted her and Anna V. refused, well, that's one thing. But if they never contacted the woman at all, I don't see how one can fail to conclude that they were afraid she wouldn't recognize the woman as the Grand Duchess.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 19, 2006, 12:03:44 PM
The idea that they were all glad that she stayed away due to her association with Rasputin doesn't make sense either. If AA were AN she would have had a good opinion of Rasputin, wouldn't she?
You would think that if AA supporters truly believed her they would have contacted the very person who's identification of AA would have meant the most to her claim in the courts.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 19, 2006, 03:05:27 PM
Quote
The idea that they were all glad that she stayed away due to her association with Rasputin doesn't make sense either. If AA were AN she would have had a good opinion of Rasputin, wouldn't she?
You would think that if AA supporters truly believed her they would have contacted the very person who's identification of AA would have meant the most to her claim in the courts.


I agree. Anna V. knew more about the family's private life and surroundings than any person left alive. She was even there more often than Olga A. Rasputin or not, the fact that she was never asked is a weird thing. One thing I thought about this is that since she had become and Orthodox nun, she would have been a lot harder to label a 'liar' and 'greedy' and 'paid off' than Gilliard and Olga A. were.

And yes, the real AN was not against Rasputin, so why would she mind being associated with his 'disciple'? Anna V. was probably the one person who could have ended all this years ago. What a shame she wasn't asked.

Back to Gilliard's mistakes, again I compare it to the LAPD and OJ. They knew he 'did it' but in trying to make 'sure' he was found guilty, they only made themselves look suspicious and gave a way for opponents to say he was being 'set up.'  Same thing with Gilliard. IF he lied to make the case against AA stronger, he hurt it by letting himself be caught in lies that made people wonder about him. I don't think there was any conspiracy or payoff because (not only was Ernie dead before the trial) AA was NOT AN, so therefore Gilliard was right, he just made some poor decisions.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 19, 2006, 05:27:44 PM
These are your thoughts, but on what other basis do you make this assertion Annie, I refer to the main black bolded statement ?

Quote

"I agree. Anna V. knew more about the family's private life and surroundings than any person left alive. She was even there more often than Olga A. Rasputin or not, the fact that she was never asked is a weird thing. One thing I thought about this is that since she had become and Orthodox nun, she would have been a lot harder to label a 'liar' and 'greedy' and 'paid off' than Gilliard and Olga A. were".

Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes?
On what past basis do YOU assert that Anna V was capable of being 'paid off' or was then cupable in a crime or of any before all of this?

I would like Your thoughts in response please, as you were the one to first bring up this thought . Thank you.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 05:35:39 PM
I hesitate to speak for Annie, since we don't like each other and all, but probably she means what any person with normal common sense would take to be the meaning: that a professed nun, under a vow of poverty and with nothing to gain, would be more difficult to bribe than an indigent former tutor and a Grand Duchess seeking to inherit the fabled missing Romanov money.

This is such a transparent attempt to start a fight that it is laughable, Tania. Why would you do this? Or did you not know what a nun was?

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 19, 2006, 06:07:54 PM
Dear Louis,

 ;D if you must, it is up to you.

When you have a real need to communicate with me, please do, but since the post was not addressed to you, you have nothing to be concerned about. Please do not speak to me as if I am with vacant senses. Lastly, I am never in an attack mode, or have reason to start any fight, here or anywhere. I would ask you kindly with any extended understanding you have, or sensitivities, not to label me as you have. I know what a nun is, [not was...]and know those who have entered the convent as a novice, and become nuns. Thank you for your time.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 19, 2006, 06:49:17 PM
Even though we don't like each other, Louis is right on what I meant, and Tania's wild tale was totally off base. I never said or thought she was guilty of or hiding from any crimes! I mean if a person is a nun, they are much harder to label 'liar' and 'greedy'. Nuns can't take any money or own anything, so what good would being payed off do her? The image of a nun, especially on a witness stand with her hand on the Bible, is not a good target to call 'liar'.  Since the AA side couldn't use the 'greedy liar' and 'paid off' labels on her, they didn't want to take a chance on her denial of AA (which certainly would have come)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 10:29:39 PM
Quote
Dear Louis,

 ;D if you must, it is up to you.

When you have a real need to communicate with me, please do, but since the post was not addressed to you, you have nothing to be concerned about. Please do not speak to me as if I am with vacant senses. Lastly, I am never in an attack mode, or have reason to start any fight, here or anywhere. I would ask you kindly with any extended understanding you have, or sensitivities, not to label me as you have. I know what a nun is, [not was...]and know those who have entered the convent as a novice, and become nuns. Thank you for your time.

Tatiana+

Tatiana,

If you don't want others to answer your posts, then don't put them on public threads. That's why the PM exists.

If you did in fact know what a nun is, why ask the question at all? Because hidden behind all of the la-di-da-ness of your post is a lady with an agenda.

In fact, I do not think your senses are vacant. I think you knew exactly what you were doing --- i.e. trying to pick a fight.

 ;)

Simon




Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 19, 2006, 10:32:26 PM
[size=10]Annie !

I as well as others on this forum do not get into personal issues you may have with another. That's for you to work out with them. Nobody needs nor wishes to be embroiled in any such actions.

When or if i do not understand anything, i write directly to that person, without needing or going to gain others to speak for me ever. That is what I did earlier today in writing to you directly.

Please read before you state I gave any wild tale. I gave no wild tale period.

This is what I stated : Quote: "Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes? On what past basis do YOU assert that Anna V was capable of being 'paid off' or was then cupable in a crime or of any before all of this? End Quote/

Anyone reading your version of what i stated would have taken your statement as my original....

          The first line of my post was a question

The second sentence is also a question asking if or on what basis you spoke about Anna V being capable of being 'paid off' ? The third part, Again another question : asking if she had been cupable in the past or or of this present question.

All were questions ? No tale was offered.

Annie, I asked because i could not follow your reasoning, and wanted you to clarify what you meant, nothing more.

No reason to get heated, or have all this excess of address from Simon, or from you. A simple response would have been fine, in a yes or no. I did not attack you or Simon, or anyone. I don't understand the mentality of why when anyone might ask a question, immediately they become in an attack mode, etc.
It goes beyond reasoning. These remarks and continued actions makes me wonder about the emotional stability of how people are addressing some of these issues of old of the personas we speak about on the threads. People seem to get entirely carried away with their emotions on right or wrong...While some of these issues are very moving in context, and story form, it still should be that we as responders should be able to respond without becoming angered, attacking another, or misreading what has actually been stated.

If you can't or don't wish to respond or answer any questions on what you offer to a thread that's fine. But please, don't put thoughts or innuendoes where they are not of value, against another member here.
Everyone is entitled to offer what they will, and ask if they wish. No insult was offered, so don't read or state something that is not there, please ! Thank you for your time.

Tatiana+[/size]


Quote
Even though we don't like each other, Louis is right on what I meant, and Tania's wild tale was totally off base. I never said or thought she was guilty of or hiding from any crimes! I mean if a person is a nun, they are much harder to label 'liar' and 'greedy'. Nuns can't take any money or own anything, so what good would being payed off do her? The image of a nun, especially on a witness stand with her hand on the Bible, is not a good target to call 'liar'.  Since the AA side couldn't use the 'greedy liar' and 'paid off' labels on her, they didn't want to take a chance on her denial of AA (which certainly would have come)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 19, 2006, 10:39:29 PM
Quote
These are your thoughts, but on what other basis do you make this assertion Annie, I refer to the main black bolded statement ?

Quote

"I agree. Anna V. knew more about the family's private life and surroundings than any person left alive. She was even there more often than Olga A. Rasputin or not, the fact that she was never asked is a weird thing. One thing I thought about this is that since she had become and Orthodox nun, she would have been a lot harder to label a 'liar' and 'greedy' and 'paid off' than Gilliard and Olga A. were".

Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes?
On what past basis do YOU assert that Anna V was capable of being 'paid off' or was then cupable in a crime or of any before all of this?

I would like Your thoughts in response please, as you were the one to first bring up this thought . Thank you.

Tatiana+


See, here's the deal. Your language was not neutral, Tatiana, and you jumped from the particular case of Anna V. to statements like "Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes?"

In fact there have been people who did enter religious life for ignoble motives, Tatiana. What does this have to do with Anna V's motives, about which no one has speculated?

And in fact, it was not Annie who first brought up this thought --- i.e. that her statement could be construed as a cynical view of nuns. It was you.

So there you go. I'm off to worry about the motivations and emotional stability of people that post things like this.

Cheers,

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on May 19, 2006, 11:39:06 PM
;D  Too funny for words Simon !

Lol, I could have sworn I wrote to Annie, but then again is there a deviousness going on, and someone incognito...It's very weird that you keep responding for Annie, Simon. I don't get it...

Again, you are putting thoughts here that do not come from me. Why are you doing that Simon ?
I asked a question to Annie, that's all, and you are twisting what I say into what you want it to read.

Stop please ! Your making a mountain out of nothing.

I have no quarrel with you or Annie, or anyone.

Tatiana+








Quote
Quote
These are your thoughts, but on what other basis do you make this assertion Annie, I refer to the main black bolded statement ?

Quote

"I agree. Anna V. knew more about the family's private life and surroundings than any person left alive. She was even there more often than Olga A. Rasputin or not, the fact that she was never asked is a weird thing. One thing I thought about this is that since she had become and Orthodox nun, she would have been a lot harder to label a 'liar' and 'greedy' and 'paid off' than Gilliard and Olga A. were".

Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes?
On what past basis do YOU assert that Anna V was capable of being 'paid off' or was then cupable in a crime or of any before all of this?

I would like Your thoughts in response please, as you were the one to first bring up this thought . Thank you.

Tatiana+


See, here's the deal. Your language was not neutral, Tatiana, and you jumped from the particular case of Anna V. to statements like "Are you stating that those who entered the church as nuns, did so to gain cover from crimes?"

In fact there have been people who did enter religious life for ignoble motives, Tatiana. What does this have to do with Anna V's motives, about which no one has speculated?

And in fact, it was not Annie who first brought up this thought --- i.e. that her statement could be construed as a cynical view of nuns. It was you.

So there you go. I'm off to worry about the motivations and emotional stability of people that post things like this.

Cheers,

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 20, 2006, 12:17:28 AM
And, it is time to return to topic. Please stop bickering or bickering about bickering. It's tiresome.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 20, 2006, 12:29:07 AM
Lisa Davidson, what are you doing up so late? I just drove by your house, and I could swear the windows were dark....!

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth here before I retire:

AA always used the diminutive "Ania" when describing her mother's confidante, Anna Viroubova. Count Hardenberg said not only that "the Christian name is wrong: it should be Anna," but also that Mme. Viroubova "was never an intimate friend of the Empress." Later Amy Smith located a copy or Empress Alexandra's correspondence, where, on practically every page, she found some reference to "Ania." Could it be possible that the fighting parties did not know how close Anna V's ties were to the family?

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Grace on May 20, 2006, 06:27:38 AM
Quote
Quote
What incentive would Olga have for denying AA if she were AN? If she believed AA were AN I doubt Gilliard would have been able to persuade her otherwise. She clearly was not given money as she died in an apartment above a barbershop. What possible reason would she, or Gilliard for that matter have to deny her if they believed her to be AN?

There isn't a good reason.  This is why these claims are all so ridiculous.

The reason Olga, Gilliard, Irene, Volkov, etc, denied AA was because...drumroll please...she WASN'T AN. The sooner people accept this and stop trying to come up with absurd and motiveless conspiracy theories, the better.

Peter Kurth can give us sources from his own book until the cows come home; AA wasn't AN, and that's that.  Case closed.  Three little letters; D, N and A, prove that without question.


Rachel
xx

Oh, EXACTLY, Rachel.

I think as regards AA, people allow themselves to be swayed by the romantic notion that one of the Romanovs COULD have survived and overlook the solid, definitive evidence that exists that proves she was NO RELATION to them.

I don't understand how these threads can go on and on, to be honest.  One glance at this sad imposter should be enough to convince anyone that she was not Anastasia, let alone the DNA evidence which was absolutely conclusive that she was not.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 20, 2006, 07:25:37 AM
Thanks, Grace!

I don't know how these threads go on and on and on either.  People always try and pop up with their 'evidence' that AA was AN because so and so said this that and the other, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anyone said or did or thought because we know what the truth is; AA was not AN.

It is now a FACT that AA was NOT AN.  

Not a theory, not an opinion, but a solid, verified FACT.

So, people who still insist that AA was AN are dreamers as far as I'm concerned. It's OK to dream, but trying to convince other people that they're right with their 'evidence'? Never going to happen.  I don't do conspiracy theories, I'm afraid.  As Mr Gradgrind would say, 'Stick to facts, sir!'.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 20, 2006, 11:21:29 AM
Quote
Lisa Davidson, what are you doing up so late? I just drove by your house, and I could swear the windows were dark....!

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth here before I retire:

AA always used the diminutive "Ania" when describing her mother's confidante, Anna Viroubova. Count Hardenberg said not only that "the Christian name is wrong: it should be Anna," but also that Mme. Viroubova "was never an intimate friend of the Empress." Later Amy Smith located a copy or Empress Alexandra's correspondence, where, on practically every page, she found some reference to "Ania." Could it be possible that the fighting parties did not know how close Anna V's ties were to the family?

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Does that seem credible, that neither side knew?

I am curious as to why the German courts never sought her out. Or did they?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 20, 2006, 11:35:43 AM
Quote
Thanks, Grace!
I don't know how these threads go on and on and on either.  

So why did you start it?????

In wonderment,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 20, 2006, 11:42:25 AM
I just cannot believe that neither side did not know about Anna V's close connection to the IF. The trial went on all the way to 1967, and by that time, so much information about the life at the Russian Court was available for everyone to read that Anna V's relationship with the Empress must have been widely known. I think Hardenberg was just out to discredit AA.
I also wonder why Anna V. did not herself seek out AA to see whether she was real or not. Has anyone here read her book? It would be interesting to see what she has to say on the subject.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 20, 2006, 11:53:08 AM
There is an interview posted here on this site. Anna is being examined by a committee appointed by the Provisional Government. It's interesting because she chooses to take the Sgt. Schultz Approach: "I know NOTHING!" Part of this could be simple fear, of course, but it makes me wonder how forthcoming she would have been in her memoirs (which I haven't read).

As I said above, I can see why the Romanov survivors disliked her, and they would have know about her close connection to the Family and Rasputin. But it really just staggers the imagination that the Anastasians, who were using ID's for their claimant from people like Dassel, with every little direct experience of the Grand Duchess, would not have had her called as witness during the trial. And yes, I know she wasn't in Germany, but did they at least make the effort?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 20, 2006, 12:02:48 PM
You have now given me another nut to crack. Give me some time, and I will be back with an answer. Maybe I'll even break down and buy her book for much more money than it's probably worth. (I think it can be had on E-bay for around a C-note these days.)

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 20, 2006, 01:34:33 PM
Quote

Dear Bear,

There were at least two unquestionably "real" Grand Duchesses around, daughters of Alexander III. Nobody rallied around them. No one rallied around Grand Duke Nicholas. No one rallied around poor silly Kyril when he finally got around to proclaiming himself the Heir. I'm not sure how the appearance of a 20 year old girl largely unknown to the Russian people would have incited a surge of Tsarism.

The idea that Russians have been receptive to the idea of a ruling Tsaritsa is a little questionable as well. Was there widespread support for the repeal of Paul's ukase forbidding female accession?

I don't think that the lack of recognition had to be motivated by anything more complex than, well, the fact that they didn't recognize Andersen/Schanzkowska as the Grand Duchess. Some people did, and that also could be motivated by the fact that they, well . . . did.

Simon

Of course I know there were very real Grand Duchesses alive after July 1918. (Sigh.) Why would you Simon suggest I would not? I don't know.  Simon is right, no one rallied around the "real" Grand Duchesses. Why?  It probably didn't enter their mind to take the reins from Kryill and lead their people to victory against the Bolsheviks...

Not enough people rallied around the uncrown Tsar Kyril.  As for him being "silly",  it really doesn't matter in a monarachial world if the monarch is "stilly" because that was the breaks of this kind of royal game.  He or she remains the  hereditary sovereign until he or she dies or a revolutionary group sets the monarch aside and takes up the reigns of power.

The only Romanov,  I recall at this time,  who was popular enough to rule Russia abdicated after his death was GD Nicholas Nicolaievich.  And,  he had quite a group surrounding him and wasn't just sitting on his hands doing nothing.

There were, therefore, all kinds of political struggles occuring within the Romanov ranks.

It would be a failure for anyone to slough off the poltical angles if you are serious historian, so I'm sure most serious historians have thought about it to some degree.  So my question is have other posters realized how AA affected the skeme of things?

I will agree that Gilliard seems to have been, also, caught in the petty bickerings, much like many of us here get tangled.  

Sokolov certain became tangled in the politics while investigation the disaperance of Nicholas II, his family and others.

One needs to investigate Gilliard's and Sokolov's relationship with Gen. Deterikhs  while the Whites had control of Ekaterinburg.

As for the personal stuff between Gilliard and AA,  Sokolov and AA,  it all seems just what it seems,  something personal with personal emotions, decision and outcomes.

Since I am not as familar with the Romanov inner family relationships,  I find from viewing it from the outside that there are many unknowns as to why who said what to whom and why.  As we all know,  each family has it's own world which the outsiders would have a difficult time to understand all it's nuanaces.  

I'm not so sure how much Gilliard played a part among the Romanov men.  It does appear he had disucssions with the older ladies with whom I think he had more contact than he did the men.  

Sokolov played no part in the personal lives of the Romanovs accept for the times when he interviewed them as he continued to collect information.  Therefore,  he had to depend upon Gilliard's knowledge about the Romanovs. And, of course,  his conclusions affected the Romanovs to some degree.

Gilliard's part in the Romanov world was a man who was trying to remain a part but never could be a part of the inner world of the Romanovs, because he had been just a servent.  And, without income from a Romanov,  he had to earn his keep.  Why not write a book?  Since I've not read his book,  I cannot comment on the errors which some posters claim.

Sokolov, who has been described as the dectective, who's name I've forgotten,  in the movie the Pink Panter movie,  had found his own nich.  He became obsessed with this project.  Or did he?  Was it the project or the new life where he found himself interviewing artistocracts whom he never dreamed he's ever have contact?  I really don't know enough about Sokolov's personal life,  so,  all I have are questions.

(continued to next post)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 20, 2006, 01:35:32 PM
(continued)

Back to politics for a moment.  Because,  I haven't responded to Simon's statement:
Quote
I'm not sure how the appearance of a 20 year old girl largely unknown to the Russian people would have incited a surge of Tsarism.

It would depend upon how the 20 year old young woman [no longer a girl] presented herself and what she wanted to incite.  If she had the boldness and flare of a young Catherine II "the Great", she could have had instantly had troops surrounding her, cheering her into the roll of Tsarina and maybe even placing her on the throne she was claiming or if she was a sickly woman lying in a bed in an asylum then we have what did happen which was nothing more than a sickly woman in a bed in an asylum who couldn't  take care of herself and therefore incapable of inciting troops to rally let alone march into Russia.

Who should arrive but AA, a sickly female in a bed in an asylum....

Then,  it ends up the sickly woman whom everyone thought was the beautiful GD Tatiana wasn't GD Tatiana....  There was instantly a dark cloud hovering over this woman, who claimed she had never said she was GD Tatiana but was in fact claiming she was the shorter GD Anastasia....

Some thought she wasn't GD Anastasia.  Some thought she was.

Who and what was this Miss Unknown who became Mrs. Unknown....?

Was she a crazy lady who just by chance was given this part in the lives of the Romanovs?  Or, was she a Grand Duchess suffering from trauma and tb?  Maybe, she was an agent pretending to be the Grand Duchess?  If an agent, who were her fellow conspirators?  Reds?  Whites?  Bowns? Greens?

Whomever she was,  her timing was perfect.

Politics surrounded everyone, even AA.

If AA's part was deliberate or accidental,  she was in the mix after someone said to another,  "Do you think she looks like....?"  And the person points at a photo of one of the daughters of Nicholas II which was in a magazine.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 20, 2006, 08:40:17 PM
In no particular order:

(1) Don't be so touchy, Bear, I wasn't implying anything about whether you knew that "real" Grand Duchesses existed. I was looking at your hypothesis from various angles. No one rallied around Xenia and Olga, which makes it questionable if they would have rallied around a surviving Nicholaevna daughter.

(2) Sokolov died before he could play a major role, and I think died a marginalized character.

(3) Catherine II seized power in a palace coup d'etat. She was not brought to power by a popular uprising. I tend to doubt, based upon their surviving letters as contrasted to Catherine's, that any of Nicholas II's daughters had the kind of mental abilities that powered Catherine's career. The overwhelming characteristic that they shared was innocence; even Catherine would not describe herself as that.

(4) Sorry to be picky, but silly is an apt description of Kyril, not the idea of monarchy. He took the title in the face of opposition from Maria Feodorovna, who fortunately for him died before she could cause too much trouble. He was widely known within the family as the Grand Duke who "betrayed" Nicholas II, by going over to the Provisional Government. He wound up living a fairly dilettantish life in France, completely ignored by the world leaders, despite frequent helpful indications that he would have been thrilled to let them restore him to the throne.

(5) I really think that after the Civil War, Tsarism was dead inside Russia as a viable system of government. Monarchy had run its' course in Europe as a governmental system, although I am sure it retained sentimental appeal for many. The word for monarchy is "outmoded", in part by the fact that most of the pre-war autocracies had some limitations placed upon their powers by Christianity in various forms. None of the totalitarian regimes that replaced them suffered from ethical limitations.

(6) None of the Romanovs retained any clout after the Revolution, although the current generation has a good record for philanthropy. No one was pushing for a restoration of a Tsar (except Kyril, see above). Which means that AA/FS was never a politically important figure.

(7) The details of Gilliard's life pretty much indicate that he was a player in the AA/FS controversy. Period. I do think he loved the children, based upon evidence offered by Sokolov. I don't think that political intrigue would have been expected (or tolerated) by family members from a former tutor.

Try The Flight of the Romanovs by John Curtis Perry and Constantine Pleshakov. It is a huge help in sorting out the relationships among those who left. I should mention that "Anna Andersen" does not appear to be mentioned in the book, at least after an examination of the index. It's published by Konecky and Konecky, 1999.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 20, 2006, 08:54:31 PM
Anna's book is among those published here on this site:

http://alexanderpalace.org/russiancourt/

other books by those with close contact to the family

Lili Dehn's book

http://alexanderpalace.org/realtsaritsa/

Sophie Buxhoevedon's books

http://alexanderpalace.org/alexandra/

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind/


Gilliard's memoirs (not 'Les Faux Anastasie')

http://alexanderpalace.org/gilliard/
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 20, 2006, 09:01:38 PM
Thanks. I have read the others, but missed Anna's. There's 100 bucks I won't be spending on Ebay.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 21, 2006, 01:19:20 AM
Quote
Thanks. I have read the others, but missed Anna's. There's 100 bucks I won't be spending on Ebay.

And neither will I. After scouring my resources, I can find nothing about Anna Vyrubova and her life after the revolution, just that she lived in Finland and became a nun, and died at the age of 80 in 1964. There is no indication that she was contacted by anyone for identification purposes.

I also found this little tidbit when searching: From "I am Anastasia":

"From this period I remember something else connected with my languages. Both at Lugano and at Oberstforf I had taken up English again. As a child I used to read a lot of English boooks, it was only French novels we were forbidden to read. Now I received the Memoirs, written in English, of my mother's friend Anna Vyrubova, and began to read them. Much as the book interested me, because it recalled the past, I found many memories very sad, espcially Rasputin's death. I talked about it to the Duke (of Leuchtenberg), and he told me that this man, whom till then I had regarded as a saint, had done Russia Great harm; at which I was utterly confused and despairing."

This definitely confirms that AA did get at least some of her "memories" from books. But how could FS read English?

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 21, 2006, 01:26:40 AM
Well, there may have been other ways to learn English aside from actually being the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

How much of I AM ANASTASIA is actually in her own voice, as opposed to the ghost writer? I was under the impression that it is usually discounted as a source for information, because by the time it was writter --- by whomever wrote it --- there had been ample opportunity for Andersen to obtain information. By the time the book was written, there was no question that she could read English.

Simon

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 21, 2006, 04:01:01 AM
Quote
Well, there may have been other ways to learn English aside from actually being the Grand Duchess Anastasia.


Exactly.  ;D  

I find it VERY difficult to believe that the little clan surrounding AA didn't know about the closeness of Anna Viroubova to Alexandra.  

It seems likely to me that she wasn't contacted precisely because of her closeness.  She was probably the most reliable person who could say definitively whether AA was AN or not.  Remember, Anna was with the family until she was forced to leave with Lili Dehn before the family's removal to Tobolsk.  She also exchanged letters with the Empress and the children during their captivity and was privy to details about their captivity that no one else would know apart from someone who had been inside that house.

So, Anna knew a lot of personal things about the IF that no-one else knew.  She was in a position to ask AA some tricky questions that her supporters simply didn't have the information to prepare her for.

So, the likely reason she wasn't contacted? Because she could blow AA out of the water straight away. Plus she was a nun, so her word would carry far more weight than some courtier; people trust men and women of the cloth.

All of this 'well, she wasn't contacted because of Rasputin' is not very convincing at all.  If AA WAS AN she would have no reason to think ill of Rasputin.  Nobody said AA was less reliable because as AN she would have been close to Rasputin, did they? This is just an excuse to try and get out of the simple fact that Anna Viroubova was not asked to meet AA because she was probably the one and only person who could say 'this is not AN' and know enough about AN to have made that a 100% watertight fact.  She possessed the ammo to send AA and her supporters into oblivion and they didn't want to risk being exposed as frauds once and for all.  It's as simple as that.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Eddie_uk on May 21, 2006, 06:23:31 AM
Quote
 If AA WAS AN she would have no reason to think ill of Rasputin.  Nobody said AA was less reliable because as AN she would have been close to Rasputin, did they? This is just an excuse to try and get out of the simple fact that Anna Viroubova was not asked to meet AA because she was probably the one and only person who could say 'this is not AN' and know enough about AN to have made that a 100% watertight fact.  She possessed the ammo to send AA and her supporters into oblivion and they didn't want to risk being exposed as frauds once and for all.  It's as simple as that.

Rachel
xx

So true. How fantastic it would have been to have Anna V. supporting AAs ficticious claims! but that would have been impossible because Anna more than anyone would have unmasked AA as a fraud. They must have been terrified of that happening so used her relations with Rasputin as a pretext for not involing her !!! Surely the real GD Anastasia would have wanted to see Anna??? I wonder if Anna followed the case????
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 21, 2006, 08:00:47 AM
Eddie and Ra Ra are exactly right about the AV situation. You would think that if AA were really AN she'd have been begging to see AV, the one person who would know her well and certainly have nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth. The fact that she and her supporters avoided her seems like they were indeed afraid she'd know and expose the truth and they couldn't take that chance, especially since AV was a nun and her word would be harder to fight with claims of 'greed' and 'lies' as they had used on the others.

Simon and ChatNoir, Anna V. did write a second book, but like Felix's sequel to Lost Splendour, it was not as popular as the first, is out of print and not in English. You may have to try ebay again, or some rare book shops? If you do find it we'd all be interested to know about it.

It's my guess is that AV probably did hear about the case, but thought it was a sad disgrace and mockery of the death of someone knew and loved, and wanted o part of it. Kind of an 'I'm not going to even dignify that with a response' reaction. Too bad though that she didn't, it would have been interesting.

I also think if Lili Dehn had met her in the 1920's-30's instead of the 50's when she was so old and AA herself was so much older than AN had been when they last saw her she wouldn't have been able to have been fooled so easily with her well coached comments and behaviors. Poor old soul was taken advantage of in her old age and sadness.I also wonder what would have happened if AV, Lili and Sophie had all met her back then, and were able to compare stories and discuss this thoroughly. I bet that could have seriously ended AA's claim in its bud. No wonder her supporters never sought such an audience.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 21, 2006, 11:23:05 AM
Quote

...[in part]...
(2) Sokolov died before he could play a major role, and I think died a marginalized character.
.....

Sokolov's investigation, collection of material and his book  makes him a major player in our research about the events which occured on the night of 16 and 17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House.

Just look around these threads and see how many times Sokolov has been quoted as being the source, OR, look in the books on the subject and you'll always find Sokolov as the source.

If you are speaking about  Russia's complete history, Sokolov was a very minor character worthy of a sentence or two in connection of  the Whites' investigation into the death of Nicholas II and his family.  

AGRBear




Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 21, 2006, 12:14:41 PM
Quote
Quote

...[in part]...
(2) Sokolov died before he could play a major role, and I think died a marginalized character.
.....

Sokolov's investigation, collection of material and his book  makes him a major player in our research about the events which occured on the night of 16 and 17 July 1918 in the Ipatiev House.

Just look around these threads and see how many times Sokolov has been quoted as being the source, OR, look in the books on the subject and you'll always find Sokolov as the source.

If you are speaking about  Russia's complete history, Sokolov was a very minor character worthy of a sentence or two in connection of  the Whites' investigation into the death of Nicholas II and his family.  

AGRBear





I apologize if I misunderstood the thrust of your post, which I took to be whether he and Gilliard played major roles in the political aspirations of the Romanov family, and Russian politics in general.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 23, 2006, 12:19:41 PM
Quote

...[in part]....
(1) Don't be so touchy, Bear, I wasn't implying anything about whether you knew that "real" Grand Duchesses existed. I was looking at your hypothesis from various angles. No one rallied around Xenia and Olga, which makes it questionable if they would have rallied around a surviving Nicholaevna daughter.

If you were a young loyal soldier of the Tsars or Whites who was asked by one of the older Grand Duchesses  to help her become Tsarina would you?

(http:// http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/GDsBeautyPic.jpg)

If you ere a young loyal soldier of the Tsars or Whites who was asked by one of the beautiful daughters of Nicholas II's to help her regain the crown and the throne which was claimed to be rightfully hers,  would you?

There were 500,000 Russians just in Germany and an unknown number in the rest of Europe,  N. and S. America, Manchuria, China, Africa who might well have if she had played her cards right.

Don't you think the Bolsheviks worried about this possibility?

If one GD did escape,  do you think those who knew worried that this was possible?

Quote
...[in part]...
(3) Catherine II seized power in a palace coup d'etat. She was not brought to power by a popular uprising. I tend to doubt, based upon their surviving letters as contrasted to Catherine's, that any of Nicholas II's daughters had the kind of mental abilities that powered Catherine's career. The overwhelming characteristic that they shared was innocence; even Catherine would not describe herself as that.

....

This is true about Catherine II being in the palace in Russia.

How old was she became Regent?  I've forgotten?  

Oh yes, she did have the Orlov brothers....

 And, yes, she had lost her innocence through the discovery of how the royals in Russia survived, lived and murdered those who got in their way back in those days of  duels and owning serfs...

As for the daughter's of Nicholas II's mental abilities,  I do not know what it was by July of 1918 and can not comment.  But I think in the right circumstances, one or all, might have given some of you a surprise as to what they could have done if they had lived and been surrounded by their own strong and clever Orlovs.

I thought it was true when I said it and still do: Russians have always seem to fair better under women rulers then men.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on May 23, 2006, 03:33:49 PM
Yes, Bear, I would have. Overwhelmed by their beauty, I would have fought manfully to bring one of them --- well, maybe not Anastasia, she was too sarcastic, and we would have had trouble getting along --- to the throne from which they were rightfully kept by the Bolsheviks.

Is that the answer you wanted?


Look, there is a certain Ruritanian razzamatazz associated with this entire question, and yes, given the right circumstances (which would include a complete change of personality and mentality, which seems a little extreme), I suppose there is a chance that ---

No, I can't even complete the sentence.

Please take a look at the book about the family survivors I recommended. The overwhelming reaction of the ordinary Russian to the brutal execution of these lovely young women (no sarcasm, they are lovely in this picture) was . . . indifference. By July 1918 the entire Family had become irrelevant to both sides. Surely you know that the Whites weren't fighting to rescue them? And that the surviving Romanov family members in the Crimea were protected by the Germans, which even they considered unseemly. The Whites wanted them out of the country, if they thought about them at all. The White crusade was anti-Bolshevik, which is not the same as pro-Romanov.

If we could rescue these lovely young women, smiling into the camera, unconscious of their impending doom, then yes, we would have done it. I now have a pleasant mental image of you and I, Bear, skulking around Ekaterinburg in 1918, trying to rent a dog-cart or airplane. I would also like to have warned the passengers on the Titanic, Andrea Doria, Lusitania and Hindenburg, to say nothing of the fleet at Pearl Harbor, James Dean and Marie Antoinette. Unfortunately, history is not about what-might-have-been. It's a shame, but there it is.

Simon

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on May 23, 2006, 05:05:03 PM
Quote
Yes, Bear, I would have. Overwhelmed by their beauty, I would have fought manfully to bring one of them --- well, maybe not Anastasia, she was too sarcastic, and we would have had trouble getting along --- to the throne from which they were rightfully kept by the Bolsheviks.

Is that the answer you wanted?

Being the gentleman I believe you to be,  I assumed nothing less.


Quote
If we could rescue these lovely young women, smiling into the camera, unconscious of their impending doom, then yes, we would have done it. I now have a pleasant mental image of you and I, Bear, skulking around Ekaterinburg in 1918, trying to rent a dog-cart or airplane....

Simon


When you write this play about us,  make me natural blonde with smarts,  beautiful, and with a willowy figure if you'd be so kind.

Bear with a smile :)

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 25, 2006, 04:03:48 AM
This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Anderson may have come up before, but might as well throw it in for what it's worth.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 25, 2006, 06:59:47 AM
Quote
This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Anderson may have come up before, but might as well throw it in for what it's worth.

I wonder who from here wrote that. It sounds so familiar. You know Wikipedia is written by regular folks? Anyone can submit an entry. They're supposed to be checked for accuracy, but since there is no 'proof' what they said is wrong I guess they let it stand. But there is certainly no proof it's right, either.

And Bear, you seem to have an idea for a good fictionalized novelization there, some brave young soldiers help Anastasia become the next Catherine the Great. I'd love to read it, and see the movie!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 25, 2006, 02:57:27 PM
Yes, and it's frighteningly easy to rewrite.  I went in to correct a misspelling and a minute later there the correction was on the page, meaning, anyone can get in and change anything anyone wrote!  They don't let you do that on message boards and even on Internet Movie Database you have to jump through hoops to submit a correction!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on May 26, 2006, 06:13:30 AM
That's why I'm always a bit weary of Wikipedia. Whilst it can be accurate and therefore helpful I find it's best to double check things on there. I also noticed that all the links provided at the bottom of the page link to pro AA sites, bar the first one that discusses the Russian point of view that it is Maria who is missing.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 31, 2006, 06:50:34 AM
First, I am always amazed at how one person's word of mouth about height and shoes- which is very likely inaccurate- I don't think my own kids or my own siblings could name my exact height or shoe size-could mean more to anyone than scientific proof. Also, subjective things are VERY subject to natural human error or mind's eye memory distortion. When looking at a house, me and 4 other people all recalled the color of the tub differently, and we were all wrong! 10 people who met the same rock star all reported his height different. I loaned my friend some baby clothes, and she gave me back ones someone else had given her, swearing they were mine. So this is about how valid all the 'shoe' and 'height' memories are (then you have to take into consideration some people even lie!)

Second, yeah, I've read all those AA books, even back when they were new. I admit I did used to almost believe her, and I WANTED to believe her, but something always nagged at me that it wasn't really her. Since the DNA tests we know it wasn't her. Now looking back at all the 'evidence' I can see how all the pieces of the puzzle of her scam fit together, people fed her info, and there is no more mystery other than how she did it and who helped her. Her identity is not a question anymore. Now when I look at those books, I can patch up those 'ifs' in my head and go 'oooooh' and I look at the pics and say 'ha ha look at Franziska biting her lips to try to look like AN!' And those of you who are claiming the tests are invalid, think about this, even if she weren't FS (which she is) she STILL wasn't AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 31, 2006, 06:55:15 AM
I think I need to remind a certain new poster of the 'rules' of this thread that I set down in the first place:

Quote
Seeing as things got a little heated resulting in the other thread getting locked, I thought I better open up a new topic on Anna Anderson, get our juices flowing again.

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.  What we're discussing is the aspects of Anna Anderson's story that remain perplexing to us, and how she may have gained the information that helped to convince so many that she was the real Grand Duchess.  What we DON'T want are arguments about why she was Anastasia, or about how the DNA could have been switched; this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.

Let's get discussing!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Belochka on May 31, 2006, 07:05:29 AM
Quote

Quote
Please do not start inferring that we're all clueless and you're the only one in the right, because I think you'll find that's not the case.

I suggest you read ALL posts before you start wading in with inaccurate accusations and statements.

Rachel
xx

[size=10]Many thanks Rachel for expressing your sentiments regarding this "new" poster who appears to have a disrespectful agenda embedded in their postings.

Best regards,

Margarita[/size]
[/color]
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 31, 2006, 07:07:20 AM
Thanks for that post, Annie.

Subjectivity is a very important thing to take into account.

The vast majority of people don't remember details very well.  

In England we have a TV programme with a kind of illusionist, I think he'd call himself, called Derren Brown.  His TV programme that has now finished was called 'Trick of the Mind'.  It was amazing how he could trick people's minds.

I'll give you an example:

Derren Brown asked someone on the streets of London for directions, and got out a map.  Then there would be a distraction, obscuring Derren from the person helping him.  When the obstruction was removed, Derren had been replaced by a completely different person.

This experiment was done three times; the first time, Derren (a white male in his thirties) was replaced by an old man, then the second time, by a woman, I think, and the third, a black male.

All three times, the person helping with the directions didn't realise that Derren had been switched.

The mind works in funny ways.  People often think they're seeing something when they're not.  

So, you can think someone has large feet, when in fact they don't.  You can remember someone as having blonde hair, but they may actually have brown. You can think someone is tall, then see them again and realise that they're actually only average height.  If you ask five people on a street to describe someone they've seen, they'll all remember different things about that person or even remember things wrongly.

Shoe size, hair colour, eye colour, height, clothing; all of these things are subjective to the person viewing and cannot be counted on as evidence unless we have the material evidence to compare.  

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Belochka on May 31, 2006, 07:15:31 AM
Quote
Subjectivity is a very important thing to take into account.

The vast majority of people don't remember details very well.  

So, you can think someone has large feet, when in fact they don't.  You can remember someone as having blonde hair, but they may actually have brown. You can think someone is tall, then see them again and realise that they're actually only average height.  If you ask five people on a street to describe someone they've seen, they'll all remember different things about that person or even remember things wrongly.

Shoe size, hair colour, eye colour, height, clothing; all of these things are subjective to the person viewing and cannot be counted on as evidence unless we have the material evidence to compare.  

Rachel
xx

[size=10]Indeed evidence can never rely on the power of one.  Comparative analysis is always the key to offer a safer more accurate estimation.[/size][/color]  :)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on May 31, 2006, 07:33:25 AM
Thanks Belochka.  :)

It will only be a matter of time before this poster, who we all know the identity of, is removed by FA.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 31, 2006, 07:04:46 PM
Quote
First, I am always amazed at how one person's word of mouth about height and shoes- which is very likely inaccurate-

FS' shoe size was provided by her family. Her exact height was never established. But the Wingender sisters, Doris and Louise, both remembered her as "somewhat taller than us". Both sisters were taller than AA.
Another curious detail is AA's left hand. She had difficulties using it properly due to a stiffened middle finger which she blamed on a carriage accident in her childhood. I cannot help wonder how FS could work as a waitress and later in an ammunition factory with one hand partly out of commission. And what waitress doesn't know how to change money, something AA didn't know?
Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 31, 2006, 09:33:09 PM
Quote


FS' shoe size was provided by her family. Her exact height was never established. But the Wingender sisters, Doris and Louise, both remembered her as "somewhat taller than us". Both sisters were taller than AA.

Her family could be wrong, like I said I bet mine couldn't name my shoe size for prize money. Also, they could have been throwing off the trail, since they denied her and didn't want to paint themselves in a corner by having AA match FS.


Quote
Another curious detail is AA's left hand. She had difficulties using it properly due to a stiffened middle finger which she blamed on a carriage accident in her childhood. I cannot help wonder how FS could work as a waitress and later in an ammunition factory with one hand partly out of commission. And what waitress doesn't know how to change money, something AA didn't know?

That was probably caused by the grenade explosion, or the TB of the bones. When she was still going by the name of FS she didn't have it yet. Also, AN didn't get her finger shut, it was Marie, and anyway it was the little finger not the middle! And AA didn't know how to count back money? Wow, that's another slap against her being AN. It seems the Tsar's children would have known better math than that, it's not just counting money, but addition and subtraction in general. There's another reason she wasn't AN! That may be the lamest thing you've come up with since you tried to pass off the pic of AA in the sweater as being AN. Okay, it would take a lot to top that gaffe.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on May 31, 2006, 11:41:25 PM
Quote
Her family could be wrong, like I said I bet mine couldn't name my shoe size for prize money. Also, they could have been throwing off the trail, since they denied her and didn't want to paint themselves in a corner by having AA match FS.

If they were so concerned about throwing everybody off the trail, why would Gertrude shout: You are my sister, admit it!
Her daughter Margarete probably echoed her wish when she wrote to her uncle Felix Schanzkowski, on May 16, 1959, in which Franziska’s niece urges Franziska’s brother to "recognize" Anna Anderson and realize her potential for the family:  "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the tsar!"


Quote
That was probably caused by the grenade explosion, or the TB of the bones. When she was still going by the name of FS she didn't have it yet. Also, AN didn't get her finger shut, it was Marie, and anyway it was the little finger not the middle! And AA didn't know how to count back money? Wow, that's another slap against her being AN. It seems the Tsar's children would have known better math than that, it's not just counting money, but addition and subtraction in general. There's another reason she wasn't AN! That may be the lamest thing you've come up with since you tried to pass off the pic of AA in the sweater as being AN. Okay, it would take a lot to top that gaffe.

As you probably don't remember, both the medical report and her family confirmed that FS was not hurt in the explotion at the factory. And I don't think she had tuberculosis of the middle finger.  Regarding AN's finger, I have already quoted two witnesses to that affair when Volkov slammed a carriage door on her finger in childhood. And it was the middle finger on the left hand. Maybe Maria had her little finger crushed in a train door, who knows.
Regarding the money: The Tsar's children grew up in very sheltered conditions. They needed money for nothing and had everything provided for them. The fact that AA paid for goods in in Berlin shops not knowing she was entitled to change, is an indication that she did not know how to handle cash, something FS for sure would have known. I hope this explains it to you.
As for the picture of AA in the sweater, Rachel pointed out to me that it was NOT AN, and I told her in the next post that she was absolutely right, and I was wrong. So don't drag that up again. I made a mistake, and I admitted it.
To quote Rachel: Please, at least try, to keep this civilized.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 01, 2006, 01:51:45 PM
Well, if you've read a lot of my posts, you know I don't believe he family really didn't think AA was FS, I think they denied her because of all the trouble and humiliation for them both, so when they give conflicting tales about FS, it seems to me they were only trying to throw off the trail. Why would they 'deny' her then paint a trial right to their door? If they did lie, of course they'd say things that didn't add up to AA so nobody would accuse them of it. i think to this day they are afraid their coverup will be found out. Now that we know for sure FS was AA, it's even more likely to me that her family covered for her to keep her from going to jail for a false claim. They also knew that as "Anastasia" she'd be cared for by somebody all her life and they wouldn't have to drag a mentally ill sister home kicking and screaming about how they'd ruined her, and even worse, they'd have had to care for her for life or turn her out into the streets (this is if she wasn't already in jail for all the trouble she caused faking being AN) It was best for them all. So since I believe this, none of the things they said that conflict with her mean anything to me.

One more thing on false claims- there are cases of this on the news all the time, national and local. Some of the most famous ones are the Tawana Brawley (sp?) case of the teenage girl who claimed she was attacked and gang raped by klansmen who wrote racial slurs all over her body. There was a huge outcry and much media coverage on this, but it turned out she had made up the story to cover up for running off with her boyfriend so her mother wouldn't get mad.(she even admitted to writing the slurs on her own stomach!) She did face charges for the false claim, and was sued.
http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id315.htm

 Also, remember the famous bug-eyes 'runaway bride' of a couple years ago? I heard she was in big trouble for pretending to be kidnapped and may have to serve time as well as pay back the $40,000 spent searching for her when she was 'lost.'
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/03/national/main692571.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/05/03/national/main692571_page2.shtml

There are other cases of this too but I can't name the details offhand. Anyway the point is, it is illegal to file and persue a false claim, especially if it clogs the legal system and causes loss of money to the system and individuals. A person with a fake claim has to keep pretending (until if and when they get caught or tired of running) or there will be stiff penalties. FS's family didn't want to be the ones to expose her and set her up for this (plus they were likely afraid of being charged for something themselves in connection to her, as Felix S. once said 'if she is my sister I won't be held responsible for her, will I?") so I DO think this was a major concern of theirs. I'm sure it was a tough decision, but the only one they could come to at the time. AA/FS probably begged them to do it.

Now about the Tsar's kids- you missed the boat. I wasn't saying they knew about MONEY, I was saying surely there were competant enough in simple mathmatics, addition and subtraction, to count backwards, say 100 minus 65 equals 35, it's very basic, it doesn't have to be money, it could be anything or just plain numbers. I find it very strange that a princess wouldn't be able to do such simple math after her fine education with tutors. So if AA couldn't count back money, that doesn't make me think she was AN, it makes me think even more she surely didn't have a good education like the real AN would have had. It also shows her feeble mindedness, perhaps forgetfulness as part of her mental illness.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on June 01, 2006, 02:19:33 PM
Chat Noir,

You are incorrect about the Grand Duchesses not knowing how to go into shops and pay for things.  They DID.  We have first hand accounts about how delighted they were, in fact, when outside of Russia to be given pocket money and be able to go into shops and buy little souvenirs and gifts themselves.  

Here is just one example, Spiridovitch's account of the 1909 visit to Cowes:
After lunch, the older two Grand Duchesses, Olga and Tatiana, went alone into the town, accompanied by several members of the suite. One had to see the joy and pleasure they expressed above all at being able to walk about without being recognized. Gay, hardy, they seemed quite at ease, entering into shops, buying postcards and all kinds of souvenirs. They took a ferry from one part of the town to another and were very happy that they could pay the price of the passage themselves.
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/cowes1909.html
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 01, 2006, 06:37:11 PM
FA: "Accompanied by several members of the suite" hardly constitutes going alone. But you make a valid point. The only problem is that Anastasia was not among them. Did SHE ever go shopping on her own? Did she know how to handle cash transactions? It could be fun to know.

Annie: If FS worked as a waitress, she could for sure handle money. And as far as the family denying her: They were time and again told that they would have no responsibilities for her care if, she in fact, turned out to be their sister. Maybe you should read Margarete's letter again. She WANTS Felix to acknowledge this woman as his sister for the benefit of the family.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

Thought I'd add a picture of AA/AN for good measure.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 01, 2006, 09:28:15 PM
Ha, ha, look at Franziska bite those lips hard to try to copy AA's much thinner ones! It's almost hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

The counting money thing means nothing, really. So AA/FS could have pretended not to count backward, or in her insanity could have forgotten. The Tsar's children would have had a good education which included basic addition and subtraction abilties of money or anything else.

About FS's family, being 'told' you won't be responsible isn't enough, there is often so such thing as a guartantee or 'never.' And even IF they weren't in trouble, they wouldn't want to do it to HER, because SHE would have been! They had to do her the favor!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 01, 2006, 10:02:22 PM
Annie. Go into the bathroom. Look at yourself in the mirror. Bite your lips. And then smile. Then send me a picture. THIS i gotta see!

Another photo, weil's so schön war........! Sorry for the awful quality.(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia3.jpg)

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on June 01, 2006, 10:55:01 PM
[size=10] ;D Sorry, but I've been at a low roar in all of this, and decided to run to the loo and follow your instructions. Well, I don't exactly run, but ya know what i mean. I wonder how many others followed through, and are willing to send in their picture. Lol, rolf, you got your point across Chat Noir and then some.  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Tatiana+[/size]


Quote
Annie. Go into the bathroom. Look at yourself in the mirror. Bite your lips. And then smile. Then send me a picture. THIS i gotta see!

Another photo, weil's so schön war........! Sorry for the awful quality.(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia3.jpg)

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 01, 2006, 11:18:16 PM
Actually I don't have to bite my lips, because they aren't as full as FS/AA's, they're more like AN's.

Here check out AA when she wasn't biting her lips! This was taken in 1920 when she was fished from the canal, are we supposed to buy she is 18 and a half year old AN? No way.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanheads.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)

and again, no match

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanfront.jpg)

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 02, 2006, 12:27:52 AM
When the police fished her out of the Landwehr Kanal, they thought she was about 20 years old. (She was actually 19 in 1920.) Mugshots are never very flattering, and if she really went through what she said, it's a wonder she looked that good. According to Frau Rathlef, "her lips were swollen from malnutrition and she had not an ounce of fat on her body."
According to Tatiana Botkin, "her mouth has changed and coarsened noticeably, and because of the face's leanness the nose appears to be larger than it was. But the eyes, the eyebrows, and the ears are fully the same. Her unforgettable eyes and the look in them have remained exactly the same as in the days of her youth."
And don't forget that three professional studies of her face from hundreds of photos all came to the same conclusion: AA is AN.

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 02, 2006, 07:16:40 AM
AN WOULD have been 18 and a half in Feb. 1920 when FS/AA was fished out of the water. Her birthday was in June. As a matter of fact she was born the same day and year as my own Grandmother (hey maybe she was AN, after that bayonet to the face she might look different ::) ) That would make me a claimant! FS/AA was born in 1896, so she was older, and looked even older than that. When someone at the asylum guessed her age at 30 she said 'no not quite so old as that.'

Lips don't swell from malnutrition, stomachs do. Lips become more drawn up. And if they were fat from 'malnutrition' she must never have gotten any good food in her life, because they stayed full and thick, that is, unless she was biting them. Really looking at her face, the bone structure isn't the same, the chin isn't even the same shape. The nose more bulbous, the eyes larger and wider- AN's were sort of droopy- and no this isn't because of age because age makes droopier eyes, not wider ones. All that stuff Tatiana Botkin says sounds like a desperate cover job. I suspect she was one of the first and one of the main ones to feed AA info.

Who was this 'anthropologist' and who was he working for? You know conspiracy theories can go both ways. I'm sure a computerized study these days would come up no match. But nobody is going to waste time doing that, because for the average, rational, realistic person, and especially the scientific and legal community, the case is closed with the DNA. It's really pathetic how you cling to old studies and shoes and this person said this and that and completely ignore and deny the most definitive evidence we've ever had, the DNA.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on June 02, 2006, 08:49:57 AM
Tatiana Botkin sounds like she is desperately trying to excuse the fact that AA looks nothing like AN, which is very obvious from the photos Annie posted for all to see.  'Oh, her nose isn't the same because of this, her eyes aren't the same because of this,' etc, etc.  Er...perhaps they weren't the same because...amazing as this may be...AA wasn't AN and therefore looked nothing like her because she was a...*shock horror!* DIFFERENT PERSON!  ;D

Anastasia had a very fine nose, with a delicate, pointed tip like her father, and thin lips like her father.  She also had eyes that noticeably drooped downwards at a slant.  Plus she had a long chin that went into a point.

Anna Anderson had a large, fleshy nose; having a thinner face does not make your nose grow in fleshiness.  Anna Anderson had large, fleshy lips; I have never heard of lips swelling from malnutrition, so I don't know what kind of excuse that is.  And seeing as Anna Anderson's lips were significantly larger than Anastasia's ever were throughout her lifetime, I really can't see malnutrition being a cause for that obvious facial dissimilarity.

Anna Anderson's eyes have a distinct upward slant.  Anastasia's slanted downwards.  Eyes cannot change position in the face like that.

Anna Anderson's chin is short and blunted; you can't change chin length and shape without significant plastic surgery.
 
It's pretty obvious without even having to go there with the DNA that Anna Anderson bore very little resemblance to the real GD Anastasia facially.  They are quite clearly NOT the same person.  How anyone can look at a photograph of AA and then one of AN and claim they are 'identical' is beyond me, and it's such a laughable premise that I can't believe experts' actually claimed them to be the same people.  Photographs can very easily lie because of shadows, odd angles, etc, and so any 'expert' claiming that someone was identical judging from PHOTOGRAPHS can not be taken as 100% cast iron evidence.  They could only claim someone was identical if they had studied the real life face of Anastasia and then the face of Anna Anderson, and seeing as that was impossible, that 'expert' declaration isn't really worth anything.

Oh, and it's funny how Tatiana Botkin, an occasional playmate of Anastasia and who hadn't seen the real Anastasia up close in years, could claim that AA's eyebrows and ears were exactly the same.  I couldn't even tell you what my own MOTHER'S eyebrows and ears looked like or in what position they were on her face compared to someone else.  So unless Tatiana Botkin had an amazingly photgraphic memory, I find it difficult to see how she would be able to claim such a thing.

Rachel
xx

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 02, 2006, 01:47:15 PM
Quote
Actually I don't have to bite my lips, because they aren't as full as FS/AA's, they're more like AN's.

Here check out AA when she wasn't biting her lips! This was taken in 1920 when she was fished from the canal, are we supposed to buy she is 18 and a half year old AN? No way.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanheads.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)

and again, no match

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanfront.jpg)


The photo was taken in March of 1920.

Are you telling me that by March 1920, the woman, AA,  whom you claim as being insane, had already come up with the skeme of being GD Anatasia and was biting her lips in this photo so she'd look more like GD Anastasia?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 02, 2006, 02:26:05 PM
Quote
Quote
Actually I don't have to bite my lips, because they aren't as full as FS/AA's, they're more like AN's.

Here check out AA when she wasn't biting her lips! This was taken in 1920 when she was fished from the canal, are we supposed to buy she is 18 and a half year old AN? No way.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanheads.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)

and again, no match

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanfront.jpg)


The photo was taken in March of 1920.

Are you telling me that by March 1920, the woman, AA,  whom you claim as being insane, had already come up with the skeme of being GD Anatasia and was biting her lips in this photo so she'd look more like GD Anastasia?

AGRBear


Uhhhhmm, no bear, I said those mugshot pics were what she looked like when she WAS NOT biting her lips, so you can see how they REALLY look. See I even highlighted this in my post you quoted.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 02, 2006, 10:48:18 PM
Quote
Who was this 'anthropologist' and who was he working for? You know conspiracy theories can go both ways. I'm sure a computerized study these days would come up no match.

Funny how some people only look at the photos where the resemblance is less obvious and chose to ignore the ones where the resemblance is great. But that is the problem with any case: Everybody looks at it from their own angle. Anyway, to answer your question, Annie, here goes: (For the second time)

An anthropological study conducted at the University of Mainz by Baron von Eyckstedt, Professor and Honorary Doctor, and his partner, W. Klenke, had concluded on the basis of a comparison of more than three hundred photographs - some of Anastasia, some of the Tsar's daughter, and some of the various members of the Russian imperial family and the House of Hesse - that "with respect to none of the physical characteristics [of the face] were there any certain and constantly recurring deviations between Mrs Anderson and Grand Duchess Anastasia" - in plain words, that the two women were identical. "It is not only possible that we are dealing with an identity," said Eyckstedt and Klenke; "it is the only acceptable solution."

The judges of Hamburg, with the agreement of both parties, ordered a new study, which - it was expressly stated - would be accepted as the last word on the subject. Selected for the task was Professor Otto Reche, "the Nestor of modern anthropology." When his 60 page report was submitted to the court, he had already spent more than a year at his task, collecting every available photograph of the Tsar's daughter, the Romanovs, and the Hesses; traveling to Unterlengenhardt and gaining entrance to AA's barracks, where he photographed her under the exact angles and approximate lighting conditions of the earlier pictures; and studying the results, "millimeter by millimeter," under the magnifying glass. He had also busied himself with charts, grids, blood tests, and a comparison of AA's features with those of FS and her family. His conclusion was:
Mrs. Anderson is not the Polish factory-worker, Franziska Schanzkowska.
Mrs. Anderson is Grand Duchess Anastasia.

In 1977, Dr. Moritz Furtmayr, one of West Germany's most prominent forensic experts, had concluded on the basis of selected photographs that Mrs. Manahan and the daughter of the Tsar were one and the same person. His method, known as P.I.K., employed a comparison of "the cardinal points of the skull, [which] once formed, retain the same relation with each other until death." Working with graphs and grids, he demonstrated that every human face produces a clear and distinct "headprint" when lines are drawn to connect the bones, and he added that in his hundreds of studies he had never seen two of these "headprints" match unless the subjects were identical. He also said that AA's and AN's ears were "inedentical in 17 anatomical points and tissue formations, five more than the dozen points normally accepted by West German courts to establish a person's identity."

I hope this answers your question.

And, oh yes, a computerized study of AA's ears agains AN's showed a perfect match, 5 of 5 possible points. Amazing, isn't it.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on June 03, 2006, 03:59:37 AM
The only amazing thing here is that anyone could have looked at AA and seen a similarity to AN.

Once again:

The nose is much larger and a different shape to AN's
The face shape is much shorter and rounder than AN's
The chin is shorter and blunter than AN's
The eyes slant upwards, not downwards, like AN's
The lips are much fuller than AN's
The ears are a different shape to AN's

I don't care what these so called 'experts' say; it is clear for anyone to see that these women were not one and the same.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Grace on June 03, 2006, 04:53:29 AM
I agree with Rachel.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 03, 2006, 09:45:05 AM
Any chance those 'experts' were paid off by a promise of a cut of the phantom fortune? I mean, if you guys claime Ernie and the Queen pay people off, why not? Can't that possibility go both ways? Either that or they were just completely mistaken. They don't even have the same bone structure of face shape!

And about the new computerized ear test, if you mean the one on TV, no, it wasn't a match, and I think it came out closer to MARIE'S ear than Anastasia's!

I don't even think they look alike, or the faces, either :P

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 03, 2006, 11:36:49 AM
I have great doubts about the "payoff" theory. The only ones that we know were paid, were bank detective Knopff and his star witness, Doris Rosa Rittmann, nee Wingender.

And you people are making your judgment from a handful of photos, not hundreds like the experts.

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson":

Next, there was the famous portrait of Franziska Schanzkowska, which Reche introduced as evidence of the bad faith of Anastasia's opponents. "This photograph has been retouched twice," he maintained, first for its publication in 1927 in the Berliner Nachtausgabe; and next, much more extensively, for its publication in Pierre Gilliard's False Anastasia: "The only purpose of these retouchings was to heighten the resemblance between Fräulein Schanzkowska and Mrs. Anderson." Still the operation had not succeeded. During his study of the photographs Reche had observed that the height, the widht, and the form of Franziska's face deviated grossly not only from Anastasia's, but identicallty from the face of the Tsar's daughter. That fact, Reche said, had to betaken as another indication that Anastasia and the Tsar's daughter were one and the same.
Anastasia's face, Reche continued, had matched the face of the Tsar's daughter "sometimes to the very millimeter." The only deviations were the normal ones brought about by age, but there had been no fundamental differences in the structure of the bones. "Such coincidence between two human faces," Reche summed up, "is not possible unless they are the same person or identical twins."

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 03, 2006, 01:15:13 PM
Quote
I have great doubts about the "payoff" theory. The only ones that we know were paid, were bank detective Knopff and his star witness, Doris Rosa Rittmann, nee Wingender.

Others could have been paid but they didn't tell anyone. AA supporters often claim Gilliard was payed off by Ernie and that Olga A. was payed off by the family. Olga never had any money, she sure lived poorly compared to the others. I don't believe it. But how can people accuse one side of being paid off and ignore that it could go the other way too?

Quote
And you people are making your judgment from a handful of photos, not hundreds like the experts.

Speaking of experts, well, there is the DNA!


Quote
"This photograph has been retouched twice,"

There are retouched copies, but I think it was done to enhance her features because it's so faded. There are copies that are still faded, and while they may be bad copies, they aren't 'retouched' because nothing has been done to the face.

Unretouched left, retouched right

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo.jpg)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 03, 2006, 05:49:16 PM
Quote
 
Others could have been paid but they didn't tell anyone. AA supporters often claim Gilliard was payed off by Ernie and that Olga A. was payed off by the family. Olga never had any money, she sure lived poorly compared to the others. I don't believe it. But how can people accuse one side of being paid off and ignore that it could go the other way too?

I don't think Gilliard was "paid off" by Ernst von Hesse, the theory is more that he received some kind of payments from the castle in Darmstadt since his frequent visits there hardly could have been possible on his salary from the University of Lausanne. I have never heard of Olga being "paid off".  After writing her mother's secretary saying: "How can I tell mamma, this will kill her", it is believed by some that she denied AN's identity to not upset the dowager empress.

Quote

Speaking of experts, well, there is the DNA!

Yes, there definitely is. But the AA being FS theory still has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

As for the photos, the one on the left is clearly a newspaper photo, and according to professor Reche, the photo was already retouched when it ended up in the paper. Has anyone got a copy of the original?

Kind regards
Chat Noir


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 03, 2006, 09:29:14 PM
Quote


I don't think Gilliard was "paid off" by Ernst von Hesse, the theory is more that he received some kind of payments from the castle in Darmstadt since his frequent visits there hardly could have been possible on his salary from the University of Lausanne. I have never heard of Olga being "paid off".


YOU have never said these things, but a lot of other AA supporters have offered the 'payed off' Olga and Gilliard theories frequently.

Quote
 After writing her mother's secretary saying: "How can I tell mamma, this will kill her", it is believed by some that she denied AN's identity to not upset the dowager empress.

The reason it would 'upset the dowager Empress' is because she believed all of Nicky's family to be alive and in an undisclosed location. The fact that someone was claiming to be Anastasia, after she was presumed dead and the other family was thought of as dead, is what would have upset her. It would also upset her to think that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter and trying to capitalize on her death. THIS is why she was upset! If the REAL AN had been alive, Olga and MF would have gladly accepted her.

Quote
Yes, there definitely is. But the AA being FS theory still has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

For me, all those 'holes' have been filled, and so have the ones on AA. I don't see any more mystery as to AA's identity, only the mystery of HOW AA and her supporters pulled off the charade for so long, and who all helped her. I guess we'll never know.





Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 04, 2006, 01:50:56 AM
Quote
 
The reason it would 'upset the dowager Empress' is because she believed all of Nicky's family to be alive and in an undisclosed location. The fact that someone was claiming to be Anastasia, after she was presumed dead and the other family was thought of as dead, is what would have upset her. It would also upset her to think that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter and trying to capitalize on her death. THIS is why she was upset! If the REAL AN had been alive, Olga and MF would have gladly accepted her.

I don't think so. MF knew very well that "Anastasia" might be in a hospital in Berlin, but refused to have anything to do with her because she insisted that the whole family was alive. As Olga said to Mrs. Rathlef: Mamma was so angry with me because I came (to see AA). When she recognized "the little one", she wrote to her mothers secretary saying: "How can I tell mamma, this will kill her".

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 04, 2006, 07:16:42 AM
I am sorry, but that just makes no sense whatsoever. MF 'knew' AN was 'alive' but refused to acknowledge her because she didn't want to believe the rest of them were dead? Oh boy that is quite a stretch. But not as much as the 'it will kill mama' if Olga did! Also, it is funny how you selectively quote Olga and ignore things like how she said when she first saw her she was excited but soon her hopes fell as she 'realized the special bond between them just wasn't there' and that it wasn't her neice. There are entire quotes on Olga's true feelings, but I can't find them in all these threads.

I really do think Olga and Gilliard both went to see her with very high hopes that were sadly dashed. They may have made comments when they first saw her, but after they saw her and talked to her more they realized it was only an imposter. The voice too would have easily given her away, Olga and Gilliard knew AN's voice well where some of the others didn't. If Gilliard said 'what have you done to the GD' that shows me that she did NOT look like AN, but he went there presuming her to be, so he was shocked at her appearance, but he soon realized she didn't look like her becaiuse she wasn't her.

It again reminds me of the story of my friend and her lost dog. Her beloved white Samoyed was missing, and when she got word that one of that description was seen running dirty, muddy and matted down another street with kids, she went straight over, took the dog into her car and drove off, against the boys' cries that it was their dog and always had been. She even called me up and told me she found the dog! But, as she kept him all day, washed him, played with him, she began to notice things in his appearance and personality that told her it was NOT her dog. After going through denial, she finally sadly realized this and the next day drove him back to the little boys. Her own dog was never found.

Here's another one, very recent, very upsetting, I hate to even mention it, but it does go to show how desperate, heartbroken loved ones can make mistakes. This is very recent news:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-06-01-vanryn-cerak-cover_x.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-06-04-mistakenID-families_x.htm
There was a terrible van accident involving college students in Indiana. The parents of one girl who died sadly buried her. Parents of another badly injured girl indentified her and sat at her bedside. When the living girl recovered enough, they were devastated to learn that she wasn't really their daughter, but her friend, blonde, blue eyed and the same size as her. It turned out their own daughter had been buried by the other family under their daughter's name. It was more than crushing for them. The family of the other girl was of course elated to find out she was still alive and there had been a mistake. But this shows that, even to this day, emotional, upset people can come to some very wrong conclusions, but time soon shows them their error. This was mentioned in the story: Was there an element of denial or wishful thinking in the VanRyns' failure to detect the mistake?

Wishful thinking and emotion, the heart taking over for the mind, at least temporarily. That's what I think happened in the case of some who saw AA, though present day AA supporters love to say they withdrew their endorsement because of 'money' or 'family pressure' I honestly believe they did it because, on second look and more thorough examination, realized they had been wrong. And they had been wrong because their desire to find AN alive had been so strong. That's why it's actually sad, and wrong, to accuse them of lying and denying her just to suit your own story.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 04, 2006, 12:06:58 PM
Quote
Quote
 
The reason it would 'upset the dowager Empress' is because she believed all of Nicky's family to be alive and in an undisclosed location. The fact that someone was claiming to be Anastasia, after she was presumed dead and the other family was thought of as dead, is what would have upset her. It would also upset her to think that someone was pretending to be her dead granddaughter and trying to capitalize on her death. THIS is why she was upset! If the REAL AN had been alive, Olga and MF would have gladly accepted her.

I don't think so. MF knew very well that "Anastasia" might be in a hospital in Berlin, but refused to have anything to do with her because she insisted that the whole family was alive. As Olga said to Mrs. Rathlef: Mamma was so angry with me because I came (to see AA). When she recognized "the little one", she wrote to her mothers secretary saying: "How can I tell mamma, this will kill her".

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Chat Noir - you are welcome to your opinion about AA, but please do not disparage the reputation and memory of Maria Feodorovna while you are doing so. It is not worthy of you or anyone else . I don't know very many mothers who could endure the deaths of 4 sons and 5 grandchildren without having some psychological damage inflicted, no matter what their economic or political prestige. It is very likely that she did not know any such thing.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on June 04, 2006, 01:06:38 PM
Thank you Annie, I agree 100% with everything you said.  

I think the recent, tragic story about the coach crash in Indiana says it all really.  Wishful thinking is a very powerful thing when caught up in an emotional state.

And Lisa hit the nail on the head with her comments about ChatNoir's treatment of Marie Feodorovna and also of the other members of the IF.

Implying that the IF knew AA was AN and chose not to do anything about it is such a disrespectful thing to claim. I might not be the Romanov's biggest fan, but these repeated claims by AA supporters that a family would turn its back on one of its own WITH FULL KNOWLEDGE OF IT is disgusting and completely without substance.

If people were claiming it's possible that the IF were mistaken, then I'd not have a problem with that, but saying that people who are no longer here to defend themselves deliberately and callously cast off a member of their own family is just plain wrong and highly disrespectful to their memories.

The IF denied AA because she WASN'T AN.  As Annie illustrated very well in her post, the mind can play tricks on you when emotion and wishful thinking gets in the way.  The fact that some of those closest to the real AN originally thought she may have been AN, but then, after they had more time to get to know AA and to become less emotional, realised they had been mistaken and publically said so, shows that Annie's theory is very likely the truth.  It happened just a few weeks ago in Indiana, after all.

AA wasn't AN.  The IF knew that and that is why they didn't accept her.  There is nothing more to this than that.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 04, 2006, 05:40:35 PM
Quote
Chat Noir - you are welcome to your opinion about AA, but please do not disparage the reputation and memory of Maria Feodorovna while you are doing so. It is not worthy of you or anyone else . I don't know very many mothers who could endure the deaths of 4 sons and 5 grandchildren without having some psychological damage inflicted, no matter what their economic or political prestige. It is very likely that she did not know any such thing.

Letter from Grand Duke Andrew to Serge Botkin, 11/30/1926:

Rumors reaching me indicated that Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna and the Empress Maria Feodorovna maintained a negative attitude toward the matter and that any attempt to clarify the situation would meet with disapproval in that quarter. Under these circumstances, I considered it essential to write a sincere letter to Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna, and to tell her my opinion on the subject by drawing attention to the defects of the inquiry and to the undeniable need for documentation in order to clarify the problem in one way or the other....Furthermore, I would ask the permission of the Empress....to take the investigation into my own hands and carry it through to its conclusion, and if the question were to be resolved the last responsibility would rest with the Empress to instruct us all whether or not to recognize the invalid as Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. I repeat that I believe nobody has the right until that moment to take sides dogmatically.

Grand Duchess Olga's reply to her cousin Andrew pleased him "very much." "All of us who were in Berlin in those days," Olga wrote, "could find no remblance to Anastasia apart from the similarity of the feet." Before granting Andrew the permission to investigate the affair, however, Olga added frankly: "You think I may be wrong. Such mistakes can of course happen. One way or the other it is ghastly." (Quoted in Andrew's above letter to Serge Botkin.)

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 04, 2006, 10:21:26 PM
First, Rachel, thanks, and I agree with you too! (don't tell MG!) ;D ;D ;D ;)

Now, ChatNoir, you are very selective in what you choose to bring out. Surely in all your research, you have seen the letters by Olga questioning Andrew/Andre's motives, and her utter despair over how sad she was AA was not AN. There are private letters by her to others which state thes things, I have seen them posted on the forum but lose track as to what thread they were in since they all end up the same.

About Andrew/Andre, I agree with Olga something was suspicious. He was a member of the Vladmiriovichi branch of the family, who were known 'enemies' of the Alexandrovichi (Nicholas's branch, and even today Xenia's descendants are at odds with them, but this is another story) Andrew was the brother of Kyril, the self proclaimed Tsar in exile, who along with Ducky, Ernie's ex wife, had been the first to betray the Tsar when the revolution came, and as head of the palace guard had called off Alix's personal protection that night. From what I've seen, it appears to me that Kyril wanted the Tsar and his immediate family gone in whatever way they could be gone (ousted, exiled, even killed) because HE was next in line for the throne after them. So, you see, Andrew, being the brother of Kyril, would have had the most to lose if one of Nicholas's heirs were to appear. So it seems extremely fishy to me (as it did to Olga) that he of all people would stand behind AA. What was he up to, as Olga asked. Also, Andrew did not know AN well, as the Vladimiriovichi were not close to the IF, not welcome around them, (this became worse after Kyril 'stole' Alix's brother's wife) and even if he payed an infrequent visit, the [presence of the youngest daughter of the Tsar would hardly be of any importance to him. I'd say he couldn't have picked her out of a lineup to save his life. His endorsement means nothing to me, I don't think he was qualified to ID her since he did not know her well, and he wouldn't have wanted her to succeed in her claim anyway. It seems to me a plot to discredit MF, Olga, and Xenia in some way.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 04, 2006, 11:56:10 PM
Quote
Now, ChatNoir, you are very selective in what you choose to bring out. Surely in all your research, you have seen the letters by Olga questioning Andrew/Andre's motives, and her utter despair over how sad she was AA was not AN. There are private letters by her to others which state thes things, I have seen them posted on the forum but lose track as to what thread they were in since they all end up the same.

Letter from Grand Duchess Olga to Tatiana Botkin, August 30, 1926:

Dear Tatiane Evgenievna,
I have received your letter and hasten to reply. We took the matter very seriously, as is shown by the visits to the patient paid by old Volkov, twice by Mr. Gilliard and his wife...as well as by my husband and myself.
However hard we tried to recognize the patient as my niece Tatiana or Anastasia, we all came away quite convinced of the reverse.
With every good wish,
Olga

Tatiana did not need to read between the lines of this letter, which she described as "imprudently put together," to realize that a decision about Anastasia's future could not be left to rest with Grand Duchess Olga. Returned to France, she arranged a meeting with Grand Duke Nicholas Nicolaievitch, the great hope of the more liberal Russian monarchists, and asked for his help. The Grand Duke, as Tatiana remembered, was "frightfully kind, attentive, and obviously upset," but to Tatiana's frustration and bewilderment he refused to intervene. "The Dowager Empress believes that she is going to see her son and his family alive again," said Nicholas Nicolaievitch. "A shock like this could kill her."

Major-General Alexander Spiridovitch, the former chief of the Tsar's secret police, saw a letter Olga had sent to her mother's secretary in Denmark immediately after her first visit to Anastasia: "Poor Mamma, how am I supposed to tell her? It will kill her."

(From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson.)

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 05, 2006, 03:46:39 AM
Strange to say, the recent mistaken identity crash victims story is not unique.  I remember hearing the identical story years ago concerning two men.  In this case the crash victims were badly burned, one died and one survived.  The survivors' family was sent to the morgue while the victim's family sat for quite some time at the hospital bed of the other guy.  Finally a relative noticed the small remnants of hair left on the survivor were not the color of those of their relative.

And look at this horrible case where an innocent man was convicted of kidnapping and only cleared after nearly a century through DNA evidence:  http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2004/05/somethings-amissin-1914-william.html
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2006, 07:03:56 AM
Quote
Strange to say, the recent mistaken identity crash victims story is not unique.

That story is horrible too! And in the story about the girls, it also mentions the same thing happened with 2 boys 2 years ago. Just because someone initially accepts someone out of hope doesn't always mean they are right, as these sad stories prove.


Quote
And look at this horrible case where an innocent man was convicted of kidnapping and only cleared after nearly a century through DNA evidence:  http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2004/05/somethings-amissin-1914-william.html

Oh yeah, I've heard of several cases like that. The court system accepts DNA above all else, which means anyone else's stories of shoes, ears and he said she saids go right out the window. That's why there really would be no more question about AA in a court case.

Another strange way DNA has helped is in the two baby switch cases. In both stories, the families never would have known they had the wrong child if not for testing being done. In one case, it was done to get genetic info for a transplant match, the other, a paternity case. These are very interesting but long stories I can't sum up in a few words.

Oh and don't forget all the 'who your baby's Daddy' shows on TV. Not one guy, even if he only got a 97% and not a 99% probability of being the father, has ever stood up and screamed it was rigged, wrong, or that the other guy his girlfriend slept with snuck in and switched the samples ::) and just think, that affects their lives directly, they're going to be paying child support for the next 18 years! So I find it hard to understand how some people are so devastated that AA wasn't AN that they must cling to ridiculous theories.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2006, 07:14:44 AM
Quote


Letter from Grand Duchess Olga to Tatiana Botkin, August 30, 1926:

Dear Tatiane Evgenievna,
I have received your letter and hasten to reply. We took the matter very seriously, as is shown by the visits to the patient paid by old Volkov, twice by Mr. Gilliard and his wife...as well as by my husband and myself.
However hard we tried to recognize the patient as my niece Tatiana or Anastasia, we all came away quite convinced of the reverse.
With every good wish,
Olga

Tatiana did not need to read between the lines of this letter, which she described as "imprudently put together," to realize that a decision about Anastasia's future could not be left to rest with Grand Duchess Olga.

I 'read between the lines' too, and see it appears to me that Tatiana Botkin was the main instigator of trying to prove AA to be AN (and to think I had blamed her brother first!) What do you mean 'her future could not depend on Olga'- you mean they couldn't use Olga in their scheme to defraud and prove a pretender to be AN? That's what TB was up to. That's why she had to go looking for someone else.

I was thinking something else about AV today. TB said they wouldn't use her because she was a 'disciple of Rasputin' which doesn't make sense, since the real AN liked Rasputin. They were afraid of her because she knew the family too well, and being a nun they couldn't brand her a greedy liar like they tried with the others. You say the other side never approached her either, but I was thinking, the 'other side' never approached ANYONE- all those involved, either pro or con, were originally approached by the AA camp. I guess the 'other side' felt no need to seek anyone out since they knew AA wasn't AN and they didn't want to 'dignify it with a response.'

Quote
Returned to France, she arranged a meeting with Grand Duke Nicholas Nicolaievitch, the great hope of the more liberal Russian monarchists, and asked for his help. The Grand Duke, as Tatiana remembered, was "frightfully kind, attentive, and obviously upset," but to Tatiana's frustration and bewilderment he refused to intervene.

Nikolasha? The reason he didn't 'intervene' is because AA wasn't AN and there was no need!

Quote
"The Dowager Empress believes that she is going to see her son and his family alive again," said Nicholas Nicolaievitch. "A shock like this could kill her."

Again, the idea that she would deny one living family member because she thought they were all alive is RIDICULOUS and INSULTING! The 'shock'- if he did say that- was that somebody was pretending to be her dead granddaughter she thought was alive, therefore making her think they must all be dead, but it does NOT mean he thought AA was AN! And if the 'shock' of hearing the rumors fo their deaths didn't kill her, why would that? Again you are grabbing at any sinking straw here and it's not holding up.

Quote
Major-General Alexander Spiridovitch, the former chief of the Tsar's secret police, saw a letter Olga had sent to her mother's secretary in Denmark immediately after her first visit to Anastasia: "Poor Mamma, how am I supposed to tell her? It will kill her."

Again, this refers to the CLAIMANT problem upsetting her, it does NOT in ANY way mean anyone thinks AA was AN! Please, move on!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 05, 2006, 08:12:19 PM
It had required a German, the daughter of the hated Kaiser Wilhelm, to impress on the Russian imperial family the seriousness of the "Anastasia" affair. The whispers and rumors had moved through the ranks of Europe's royalty until, through Crown Princess Cecilie, the reality of Anastasia was brougth home to the Kaiser's only daughter, Victoria Louisa, Duchess of Brunswick. Althouth the Duchess, like Cecilie, had no desire to meddle in the private concerns of the House of Romanov, she did think it right to discuss the matter with her own mother-in-law, the Duchess of Cumberland. In this roundabout way Anastasia found an ally who could really do her some good, for by birth the Duchess of Cumberland was Thyra of Denmark, a sister of Maria Feodorovna, the Dowager Empress of Russia. Thyra agreed now that something had to be done about Anastasia, and she brought a gentle pressure to bear at the Dowager Empress's court-in-exile near Copenhagen. How would it look, Thyra hinted, if the imperial family did not to everything in its power to solve this mystery? It would be simple, surely, "just to clear up the case once and for all."
Thyra was right, it should have been simple. That it proved otherwise was no fault of hers. The Dowager Empress, rather, had the last word in Copenhagen and seemed disinclined to cooperate.

Three years later Grand Duke Andrew had occasion to speak with Ambassador Zahle's wife, Lillian:

The most important mattter which I would like to record is the attitude in Copenhagen toward the affair and the reason for the "cooling off." As [Mme. Zahle] explained to me, her husband delivered two reports to the Empress. Despite the advice not to mention the tragedy of Ekaterinburg, he was unable to avoid this subject, because it was the invalid herself who had related in detail the stages of this drama. The conclusion to be drawn: the others had perished.
The Empress listened in silence to Zahle, did not comment on the matter, but declared dogmatically that the invalid could not be her granddaughter and dismissed him coldly. The second report produced the same result as the first, with the sole difference that the entire suite was annoyed with him because he had dared to shake the Empress's belief in the survival of the whole family.

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson"

Kind regards,
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 05, 2006, 11:51:50 PM
Quote
It had required a German, the daughter of the hated Kaiser Wilhelm, to impress on the Russian imperial family the seriousness of the "Anastasia" affair. The whispers and rumors had moved through the ranks of Europe's royalty until, through Crown Princess Cecilie, the reality of Anastasia was brougth home to the Kaiser's only daughter, Victoria Louisa, Duchess of Brunswick. Althouth the Duchess, like Cecilie, had no desire to meddle in the private concerns of the House of Romanov, she did think it right to discuss the matter with her own mother-in-law, the Duchess of Cumberland. In this roundabout way Anastasia found an ally who could really do her some good, for by birth the Duchess of Cumberland was Thyra of Denmark, a sister of Maria Feodorovna, the Dowager Empress of Russia. Thyra agreed now that something had to be done about Anastasia, and she brought a gentle pressure to bear at the Dowager Empress's court-in-exile near Copenhagen. How would it look, Thyra hinted, if the imperial family did not to everything in its power to solve this mystery? It would be simple, surely, "just to clear up the case once and for all."
Thyra was right, it should have been simple. That it proved otherwise was no fault of hers. The Dowager Empress, rather, had the last word in Copenhagen and seemed disinclined to cooperate.

Three years later Grand Duke Andrew had occasion to speak with Ambassador Zahle's wife, Lillian:

The most important mattter which I would like to record is the attitude in Copenhagen toward the affair and the reason for the "cooling off." As [Mme. Zahle] explained to me, her husband delivered two reports to the Empress. Despite the advice not to mention the tragedy of Ekaterinburg, he was unable to avoid this subject, because it was the invalid herself who had related in detail the stages of this drama. The conclusion to be drawn: the others had perished.
The Empress listened in silence to Zahle, did not comment on the matter, but declared dogmatically that the invalid could not be her granddaughter and dismissed him coldly. The second report produced the same result as the first, with the sole difference that the entire suite was annoyed with him because he had dared to shake the Empress's belief in the survival of the whole family.

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson"

Kind regards,
Chat Noir

Please do not refer to Mrs. Anderson as "Anastasia". It is disrespectful to the memory of the Grand Duchess to do so.

In her memoir, Olga A. clearly states that her mother knew that Nicholas and family were dead, no matter what others have tried to portray.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 07, 2006, 10:03:45 AM
Quote
Please do not refer to Mrs. Anderson as "Anastasia". It is disrespectful to the memory of the Grand Duchess to do so.

My apologies, I was quoting Peter Kurth's book.

Quote
In her memoir, Olga A. clearly states that her mother knew that Nicholas and family were dead, no matter what others have tried to portray.

From a letter from the Dowager Empress to Nicholas Nicolaievitch, who himself had been put forward as a claimant to the throne: "....If it should please the Almighty to take unto Himself my beloved sons and grandson, I believe....that the future Emperor will be designated by our fundamental laws in unison with the Orthodox church and altoghether with the Russial people."  
(New York Times, December 13, 1924)

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 08, 2006, 05:30:19 PM
This letter tells us - as has been known - that MF stood by her son Michael Alexandrovich's Manifesto which left selection of a monarchy to the Russian people. It tells us she did not support either Nicholasha or Kirill as Heir. I don't believe this proves she didn't realize her sons and grandson Alexei were dead.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 08, 2006, 07:01:05 PM
24 pages.....yes, 24 pages of discussion on Anna Anderson! What a waste of time and effort! If this is really the final frontier of this beaten to death topic when exactly is it coming to an end? I propose that this post be the last one on Anna Anderson. May she soon be forgotten.

David
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2006, 08:12:02 PM
Quote
24 pages.....yes, 24 pages of discussion on Anna Anderson! What a waste of time and effort! If this is really the final frontier of this beaten to death topic when exactly is it coming to an end? I propose that this post be the last one on Anna Anderson. May she soon be forgotten.

David

<---My horse agrees with you, but it appears hopeless. There are still people who are convinced the DNA tests were fakes, outright insulting the common sense and intelligence and integrity of all involved, and that it's all a conspiracy to cover up the 'truth' so that those who denied AA won't have to be embarrassed! ::) ::) ;D Yes there are people who believe this, I just read these very things on another forum. But if you tell them they are mistaken, they attack and cuss you out  Then they get banned from here, and then they go to the other forum and scream they were banned because they tried to expose the AP covering up the 'truth' that AA was AN. It's all too much. :'(
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 08, 2006, 08:20:12 PM
Well Annie your reply brought us to 25 pages of claims, counter-claims, repudiations etc. on this discredited topic, to which I am now adding one more post. I know the names of some of these persons too proud to admit their being mistaken but is there not a point in time when everyone will come to admit that the Emperor has no clothes?

David
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on June 08, 2006, 08:36:45 PM
Ok,
The speculation ends here and now. We've had more than enough of the "what ifs" etc ad nauseum.
To quote Bill Maher "New Rule":
Anna Anderson/Manahan is dead and cremated. The DNA testing has shown 100% she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaievna. Period.

so...Unless and until there is genuine evidence, supported with facts, scientific documentation etc. This discussion is closed. Period. You may only post on the subject that AA "was" AN so long as citations to supporting evidence are accompanying.

The discussion of whether AA was FS may continue. But, until there is real evidence to refute the DNA testing, Anna Anderson Manahan was not GD Anastasia. Two years and far too many postings are enough. This discussion "like Moose on wall, is like a train without wheels...Very soon getting noplace" (Apologies to Neil Simon and one of my favorite movies "Murder by Death")

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 08, 2006, 10:02:20 PM
Um, going back to the first post

Quote

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.

Rachel
xx

it's clear the discussion was originally intended to be about how Anna Anderson pulled off such a massive scam for so long and how.  Too bad the perpetrators covered their tracks as well as they seem to have done.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on June 09, 2006, 06:43:44 AM
Quote
it's clear the discussion was originally intended to be about how Anna Anderson pulled off such a massive scam for so long and how.  Too bad the perpetrators covered their tracks as well as they seem to have done.

It really is a shame, but as another poster previously said, those who were helping AA were hardly going to leave evidence around implicating themselves. I know it's probably impossible to find out but it would be interesting to know just how many people were involved with AA to pull off this scam.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on June 10, 2006, 02:12:59 AM
Check out "The Love of the Marvellous and the Disbelief of the True" from the book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds."  http://www.litrix.com/madraven/madne010.htm  Strange to say, it was omitted from every printed copy I could find of the book, so I printed it from the online copy because I find it so relevant every time I discuss historical controversies.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2006, 01:12:28 PM
After re reading "Riddle of Anastasia", I have changed my mind about one thing- I don't think it was the idea of the Botkins to play the charade. Hold on, this doesn't mean I now believe them innocent and completey fooled, I just think they were not the main instigators. I DO still think they helped feed her 'memories', and I do think they willingly played along. But now I think her supporters, esp. the Von Kliests, had this idea very early on and that a lot of different people seemed to have pressured her into it, possibly for their own gain in the end? The more I read, the more I saw gaping holes in her story, even more than I had seen before. The cart story had changed twice, and Von Kliest seemed to have been the one to encourage the idea, maybe even partially construct the fantasy trek into a story.

The part about Buxhoevedon's distrust of the supporters makes perfect sense, she refused to go with them or have anything to do with them, though some did insist on being present when she was there. The fact that "Tatiana" (as "Anastasia" was at that time) hid under the covers only shows her fear of being exposed. At least at that time, she knew she was a fake (if she did come to believe it later in her mental delusion) When Sophie said she was 'no grand duchess' by face alone and left, the devastated supporters convinced her to take another look. Unable to coax "Tatiana' from under the covers, I laughed as I read that she pulled them down herself, jerking 'Tatiana' to her feet, at whcih time she pronounced her 'too short to be Tatiana.' It was at this time that AA claimed she never said she was Tatiana (though I'm sure she'd have had no objections if it had worked!) and then crossed out all the names on the paper except Anastasia (makes me wonder if she had asked someone which daughter she WASN'T 'too short' to be? AN being the only one of her height?)

Then as the story goes on to describe how all the emigres' flocked to see her, it only made even more sense that this is where she was getting her info, most of it likely incidently in conversation, such as 'Oh Anastasia, do you remember your mother's brown dress?' or "I recall that play you and your siblings put on, wasn't it funny when you played  ____?' When I used to semi believe her, I had no idea how many Russian emigres' there were in Europe at the time. Most of the well to do Russians who were not killed fled Russia and ended up in other European countries, longing for the past and the world they lost. Many of these people did have contact with the IF or those close to them, so this was an excellent source of info. Also, as I always wondered, WHO verified her 'memories' as right or wrong? Who knew the answers, and were they even telling the truth? I really believe some of these people were so blinded by wishful thinking it didn't even dawn on them until later that she wasn't the real thing. I am more convinced than ever that several people, from the very beginning but increasing later, aided her claim and taught her everything she knew. We will never know exactly who and how, because people don't tell of such things, but it would be so interesting to find out- much more interesting than going on about shoes and buttons again. This woman was without a doubt FS, and her story is a good one on its own.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 20, 2006, 09:38:46 PM
I don't think we can blame Baron Kleist for "inventing" AA. Already in fall of 1921 Fräulein Unbekannt declared to the nurses at Dalldorf that she was indeed the youngest daughter of the Tsar. Nurse Malinovsky remembered that she was very upset, she spoke of ther sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face behind it and screaming", and of "the leader of the murderers of the Tsar [who] went straight up to her father with his pistol.....mocking him with it and shooting at him".

As for Sophie Karlovna von Buxhoeveden, she was reportedly very upset when she left the room after having seen the patient. What makes me wonder is: Why did AA hide under the covers from a lady that she, assumingly, did not know?

And among all those emigrees, which one of them knew the story about AN wearing her father's longjohns under her bathrobe in a play that the children performed in Tobolsk? A fact that was revealed when a draft lifted up the back of her robe and showed her sturdy legs in the Tsar's long underwear. AA told this story many, many years before her English tutor mentioned it in his book in 1975.

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2006, 11:01:37 PM
But, the evidence shows that she never had any idea to be any daughter of the Tsar until another mental patient showed her pics in a magazine and gave her the idea, and then she was 'Tatiana' first! These facts are mentioned in your, um, I mean your favorite book Riddle of Anastasia, is this not what happened? Is the book wrong?

 Of course she was already AA before Von Kliest took her in but it still seemed like he had a hand in trying to advance her claim, and that he may have at least partially invented the cart story.

Who 'reported' Sophie B. upset? The way the scene was described, she was suspicious from the start, gave it a good chance but left very sure she had not seen a Grand Duchess. If she was upset, perhaps it was just the sad memories of the death of the family coming back. I get like that sometimes when thinking of lost loved ones, even pets. Are you trying to grab at straws and assume she was upset because she had to lie about AA? Please, give me a break! ::)

What emigre could have known the story? It was a performance, obviously there was an audience? Could have been several people, and don't forget the Botkin children were playmates and may well have seen it too. If she had been the real AN she'd have had  much more than weak and sporadic and half incorrect memories she gleaned from emigres, or was fed directly by supporters.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 20, 2006, 11:49:42 PM
Quote
But, the evidence shows that she never had any idea to be any daughter of the Tsar until another mental patient showed her pics in a magazine and gave her the idea, and then she was 'Tatiana' first! These facts are mentioned in your, um, I mean your favorite book Riddle of Anastasia, is this not what happened? Is the book wrong?

AA stated that she was AN in the fall of 1921 to the nurses at Dalldorf. Clara Peuthert left Dalldorf on January 20th of 1922, and the whole affair began.

Quote
Who 'reported' Sophie B. upset? The way the scene was described, she was suspicious from the start, gave it a good chance but left very sure she had not seen a Grand Duchess. If she was upset, perhaps it was just the sad memories of the death of the family coming back. I get like that sometimes when thinking of lost loved ones, even pets. Are you trying to grab at straws and assume she was upset because she had to lie about AA? Please, give me a break! ::)

From Anastasia, The Riddle of Anna Anderson:
No one ever found out what went on in the ward during the several minutes of Baroness Buxhoeveden's first visit to Fräulein Unbekannt. All Schwabe knew was that the Baroness emerged from the room blushing, her face turning first red, then white, then red again. The Baroness was obviously "excited," Schwabe wrote. "She said, however, that this was no Grand Duchess."

Quote
What emigre could have known the story? It was a performance, obviously there was an audience? Could have been several people, and don't forget the Botkin children were playmates and may well have seen it too. If she had been the real AN she'd have had  much more than weak and sporadic and half incorrect memories she gleaned from emigres, or was fed directly by supporters.

Read my post again. This happened in TOBOLSK. Not much of an audience there, I'm afraid.

Kind regards
ChatNoir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 21, 2006, 06:41:48 AM
Quote
Read my post again. This happened in TOBOLSK. Not much of an audience there, I'm afraid.
 

Gleb and Tatiana Botkin were in Tobolsk, they were not separated from their father and the family until the transfer to Ekaterinburg. There was also a rather large entourage of servants and servants' servants, I just saw the list on the 'final chapter' thread.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 21, 2006, 11:52:30 AM
Quote
After re reading "Riddle of Anastasia", I have changed my mind about one thing- I don't think it was the idea of the Botkins to play the charade.

So, it appears there is a slight hint that you might have taken a peek over the rim of that box in which you've been. so,  I am sending up firewords in celebration.

(http:// http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FirewordksKFOGcopy.jpg)

Annie's quote continued:
Quote

...[in part]...
Hold on, this doesn't mean I now believe them innocent and completey fooled, I just think they were not the main instigators. I DO still think they helped feed her 'memories', and I do think they willingly played along.

...

You "think" they "helped" but you have no actual proof.

Where was Gleb Bothkin in Feb. of 1920? 1921?  1922? 1923? 1924? 1925?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 21, 2006, 02:39:54 PM
Bear, I told you many times, I HAD read the book, and Lovell's, and everything I could find on AA though the years. This is nothing new. I did recently re read it, but it has only reinforced by belief that she was a sad and pathetic woman pretending to be someone else.

Where was Gleb? Who knows? He may have visted, called, telegramed, written, we really don't know. We do know his sister was close to AA at least by 1926, and he a year later. It could have been sooner, but there isn't anything official to prove it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. We do know that her claim and her fame escalated to worldwide attention and went to court soon after officially taking up with him. It does seem a bit "My Fair Lady" ;)

 I said all along, I knew he wasn't the first on the only one to help her, but this doesn't mean he never did. I am convinced she had many who helped her, and I'd love to know the whole story.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: ChatNoir on June 21, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
Quote
 
Gleb and Tatiana Botkin were in Tobolsk, they were not separated from their father and the family until the transfer to Ekaterinburg. There was also a rather large entourage of servants and servants' servants, I just saw the list on the 'final chapter' thread.

The Tsarina has asked Dr. Botkin to have his children join him at Tobolsk, so that they dould take lessons with the IF children. But when Gleb and Tatiana arrived, to their great dismay Commissar Pankratov refused the Tsarina's request for permission that they should do so. The IF children could only wave to them from the windows or talk to them through the fence when they passed.

From the Tsar's diary, December 6, 1917:
We spent my name-day very quietly, not as in former years. A service of thanksgiving was held at noon. The soldiers of the 4th Regiment on duty in the garden congratulated me, and I returned congratulations for their regimental party. I received three special cakes, and sent one to the guard, In the evening Maria, Alexei and...(illegible) put on a cheerful little play.

Kind regards,
ChatNoir
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 22, 2006, 09:26:22 AM
So what maybe they came over just for the play. Or AN or Alexei told them the story. Or one of the servants who lived told AA. Or it was taken from that diary. Or Gibbes' version got out much sooner than 1975 (he was long dead by then) We will never know, but the one thing we do know is that AA/FS was not there and did not witness this first hand.

Here is a list of those who went to Tobolsk with the family:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?num=1106220805

and it's not even complete, Volkov's children, Nagorny and Sophie B. are among those not listed. According to this thread, only a small number, perhaps as few as five, (Botkin, Hendrikova, Schneider, Demidova and Trupp) of these people were executed. That means there were a LOT of survivors who could have seen what happened at Tobolsk and told the tale later.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2007, 04:15:18 PM
Just another thing on the topic of FS's disappearance and AA's discovery- people have tried to say since they weren't at the same identical time it means FS wasn't AA. But I've always said, consider that in those days we don't have the communications we have today! Her family was in another country, and mail was slow, and there was very little long distance phone service and if there was any, it was likely she couldn't afford it and her family didn't have a phone! Even in the US most people in outlying areas didn't get home phone service until after WWII. So it is NOT unusual for there to be a gap in time before anyone reported her missing. Those in the boarding house may not have noticed she was gone, or thought perhaps she'd gone off to visit her family or run off with some man. Things weren't like they are now on our news!

But this is the thing I wanted to bring up for all those who wonder why AA wasn't readily identified as FS, I mean besides the fact she was hardly a celebrity back then and missing persons cases aren't like they are today. I always thought that a postwar Berlin would have been a mess, but it was worse than I thought! In 1919 and 1920, there was much political turmoil in the young republic, there were several factions vying for control, including the Red guard "Bolsheviks"! The Weimar gov't was weak in its early days and not stable at all financially. This led up to an actual coup in March 1920, and the gov't came very close to being overthrown! In fact one of the factions did take control for a few days!* It was not really stable politically or financially for another 2 or 3 years. So you see, the police surely had better things to do than investigate FS, no wonder they were so easy to write her off as being possibly killed by Grossman! This situation also casts much more doubt on the timing and quality of the mail, medical records, and other things brought up in AA's case. The situation in Berlin at the time of her disappearance and in the weeks afterward needs to be considered as part of the story!

*The Kapp Putsch took place on March 13, 1920, involving a group of Freikorps troops who gained control of Berlin and installed Wolfgang Kapp (a right-wing journalist) as chancellor. The national government fled to Stuttgart and called for a general strike. While Kapp's vacillating nature did not help matters, the strike crippled Germany's ravaged economy and the Kapp government collapsed after only four days on March 17.

Inspired by the general strikes, a communist uprising began in the Ruhr region when 50,000 people formed a "Red Army" and took control of the province. The regular army and the Freikorps ended the uprising on their own authority. Other communist rebellions were put down in March 1921 in Saxony and Hamburg.

 
Berlin, and Germany, were going through a lot of problems. It was said that inflation was so bad it was cheaper to burn money than to buy firewood! This was no normal stable situation she lived in, and disappeared in. Her case was certainly not a high priority on the list of the police or whatever public officials were able to function. It's not a bit of wonder the trail connecting a missing FS to AA/FU slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2007, 09:19:52 PM
I realize my post was rambling and confusing, but the main point is that since the German Weimar gov't was in turmoil and actually fell during a coup for a few days in March 1920 that this certainly would have hindered any quality search as far as FS/AA goes, and that valuable evidence was lost in the early days of the investigation. It also makes it very likey that this one missing girl, at that time not famous, was far down the list of priorities for the authorities of Berlin at the time, assuming they were even functioning properly under the circumstances. I consider this to be a rather interesting bombshell to explain why AA was not id'd as FS at the time of her disappearance.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 27, 2007, 09:25:19 PM
I see you're digesting some historical facts about  German history and have listed some of the events which occured in and around Berlin in the early 1920s.   This is marvelous.    Can  you suggest  any books  posters could read so they could understand this time frame? 

Have you read any books, articles or  other kinds of data which can inform us about the police in Berlin?  If so,  could you tell us what they were?

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 28, 2007, 09:46:44 AM
I know as long as I don't post anything specifically about the police you will hold to your fantasy that they were a very efficient and well running machine, but get real. The police, like the schools and every other public service are funded HOW- by the government! And if the government is falling, not in total control, and in horrible financial trouble, as the German gov't was in the early 20's- there is no way that any public office is going to be functioning well. The two main elements, ORDER and FUNDING are missing. With all the political turmoil going on, it's no surprise a minor missing persons case slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation. However, when Ernst of Hesse's PI detective was able to devote all his time and resources to the job, he made the match in no time, and as DNA has proven, he hit the nail on the head!

Here is some reading on the sad state of Germany  1919-1923, including the 1920 uprisings and March fall of the Weimar republic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germany#Weimar_Republic

In the first months of 1920, the Reichswehr was to be reduced to 100,000 men, in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles. This included the dissolution of many Freikorps - units made up of volunteers. Some of them made difficulties. The discontent was exploited by the extreme right-wing politician Wolfgang Kapp. He let the rebelling Freikorps march on Berlin and proclaimed himself Reich Chancellor (Kapp Putsch). After only four days the coup d'état collapsed, due to lack of support by the civil servants and the officers. Other cities were shaken by strikes and rebellions, which were bloodily suppressed.

Nationalist terrorist groups murdered 356 politicians.   In August 1921 Matthias Erzberger, the man who signed the armistice (and therefore a 'November criminal'), was shot.   In 1922, they assassinated Walter Rathenau, the SPD foreign minister, because he made a treaty with Russia.


Just how broke Germany was in the early 20's:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hyperinf.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic#The_early_years:_internal_conflict_.281919.E2.80.931923.29

Just how tumultuous and disorderly the Berlin, and German, gov't was in those days:

http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar3.htm#3

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/kapp_putsch.htm

2.   Left-wing Rebellions

The Communist KPD hated the new government:
bullet   

In Jan 1919, 50,000 Spartacists rebelled in Berlin, led by Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Leibknecht.
bullet   

In 1919, Communist Workers’ Councils seized power all over Germany, and a Communist ‘People’s Government’ took power in Bavaria.
bullet   

In 1920, after the failure of the Kapp Putsch, a paramilitary group called the Red Army rebelled in the Ruhr.
3.  Right-wing terrorism

Many right-wing groups hated the new government for signing the Versailles Treaty (June 1919):
bullet   

The Kapp Putsch: in March 1920, a Freikorps brigade rebelled against the Treaty, led by Dr Wolfgang Kapp.   It took over Berlin and tried to bring back the Kaiser.
bullet   

1920     March 13 - 17     The Kapp Putsch, an unsuccessful military revolt against the Republican government.  It is followed over the next two weeks by armed radical revolts in the Ruhr and elsewhere, also unsuccessful.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 10:57:48 AM
I'm proud of you Annie.  You've presented the posters some interesting historical items to read.   

>>The Kapp Putsch took place on March 13, 1920, involving a group of Freikorps troops who gained control of Berlin and installed Wolfgang Kapp (a right-wing journalist) as chancellor. The national government fled to Stuttgart and called for a general strike. While Kapp's vacillating nature did not help matters, the strike crippled Germany's ravaged economy and the Kapp government collapsed after only four days on March 17.<<

>>Kapp government collapsed after only four days on March 17. <<

Do you have any idea how this affected the Berlin police?  Did they change their methods?  Did Kapp remove the heads of the police dept. and set in a different  rules?    Were the police so overwhelmed that  all cases were affected and everything had  halted and they were not effective?

We do know that the police who were invovled in the case of  "Miss/Mrs. Unknown"  did use their own money when they brought family members to Berlin  in hopes they had found  someone who could identify  her.    We  know that one family,  who had  a young woman missing who matched the description of AA,  was brought to Berlin  with the  use of  the police's  funds from Posen....

Once, again,  let me suggest that  all of us  must be carefull when making assumptions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 29, 2007, 01:16:33 PM
Like I said in my post, since the police, like all public services, are run and funded by the gov't, if the gov't has failed, it's ridiculous to think they're still there running like nothing ever happened. First, they have many other issues on their hands. The ARMY has failed to contain the factional fighters, so what do you think the police could do? And do you really believe they'd be searching for FS, or anyone, when this was going on? I know you say this is 'assumption' but really, it's common sense, and a very good explaination for why they dropped the ball on the investigation while Ernie's PI found the right answer. I've always seen people say, why couldn't they solve the case if it were that easy? Now I have offered you a very real, logical and historcal reason why not. If you choose not to accept it, I don't believe you want the 'truth' but the game to continue.

I have also heard that MANY people vanished in those miserable postwar years. Even Albert Einstein's first wife was lost at a train station, and never found. There was no internet, no cell phones, hardly any regular phones, and the public officials were not funded well and had much more demanding things on their minds. It's tragic how some were lost this way, but in the case of AA/FS, it worked to her advantage.

Oh, and one more thing, in all that turmoil, I'm sure the mail wasn't going out on time or running smoothly either, which can explain the birthday card. Also note that riots and uprisings continued for 2 weeks, so it was a time of confusion.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 01:33:13 PM
Annie,

I' m getting whiplash from jumping back and forth between this thread and the Grossmann thread.

Where would you like to continue this subject about the Berlin police and events occuring when FS was reported missing to the time the German courts  accused  Grossman of  having murdered her    because  it's silly to have the same converation going on two threads at the same time?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 30, 2007, 06:02:19 AM
Click on this quote and it will take you to the discussion over  on the Grossmann thread:

Quote
gain, it is evident to me and others that you have not  research the subject of the history of the Police during the Weimer Republic  time slot in the history of Germany.

I have spent several days googling and checking for ANYTHING on the Berlin Police Dpt. itself at that time, but came up with NOTHING. There is nothing specifically about them out there that I can find, perhaps n some obscure German book somewhere, but nothing we can find now. So you can't claim they were a 'professional' and efficient organization, or even running or functioning normally, either. So you cannot disprove what I have found, that the fall of the gov't caused turmoil and colllapse in Berlin at the time FS disappeared, that the gov't was broke, and that its workers and pensioners suffered greatly for this. So everything adds up to them not being fully funded, manned, or able to waste time on a case such as this in a critical situation like the government being overthrown, and nothing but the word of you and other AA supporters point to them being awesome and unaffected.

...[in part].....

I know a great deal about the Berlin police between the years of 1918 and 1925.

When the  Germans' world collapsed,   the Germans' problems shifted from foreign affairs and war to internal security.  And,  do you know who was in charge of the internal security of the New Weimer Republic,  as it was called in those times after WWI?   The Berlin police.   Between WWI and the beginning of the  Hitler period,  the police became the backbone of public  security in the middle of those chaotic times.    Therefore,  my  thoughts about the Berlin Police is quite different than what  some you believe.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 30, 2007, 06:08:28 AM
...[in part]...

Oh, and one more thing, in all that turmoil, I'm sure the mail wasn't going out on time or running smoothly either, which can explain the birthday card. Also note that riots and uprisings continued for 2 weeks, so it was a time of confusion.

I'm not sure what you mean about Felix's birthday card.   

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 04:53:41 PM
From "The Last Grand Duchess" by Ian Vorres, description of GD Olga's (the girl’s aunt) first meeting with and her impressions of AA:

p. 174

When Olga entered the room, the woman lying on a bed asked a nurse: “Ist das die Tante?”[Is this the Aunt?]  “That”, confessed Olga, “at once took me aback. A moment later I remembered that the young woman having spent five years in Germany, would naturally have learnt the language, but then I heard that when she was rescued from that canal in 1920, she spoke nothing but German – when she spoke at all- which was not often.  I readily admit that a ghastly horror experienced in one’s youth can work havoc with one’s memory but I have never heard of any ghastly experience endowing anyone with a knowledge they had not had before it happened. My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family”.

Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna:

“My beloved Anastasia was fifteen when I saw her for the last time in the summer of 1916. She would have been twenty four in 1925. I thought Mrs Anderson looked much older than that. Of course, one had to make allowances for a very long illness and the general poor condition of her health. All the same, my niece’s features could not possibly have altered out of all recognition. The nose, the mouth, the eyes were all different.”

P. 175

The Grand Duchess [Olga Alexandrovna] remarked that the interviews were made all the more difficult by Mrs Anderson’s attitude. She would not answer some of the questions, and looked angry when those questions were repeated. Some Romanov photographs were shown to her, and there was not a flicker of recognition in her eyes. The Grand Duchess had brought a small icon of St Nicholas, the patron saint of the imperial family. Mrs Anderson lookes at it so indifferently that it was obvious the icon said nothing to her.

P. 176

Olga Alexandrovna: “…That child was as dear to me as if she were my own daughter. As soon as I sat down by that bed in the Mommsen Nursing Home, I knew I was looking at a stranger… I had left Denmark with something of a hope in my heart. I left Berlin with all hope extinguished. "




“…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson.

“Then again I heard that a party in Berlin, when she was offered some vodka, Mrs Anderson said : ‘How nice! It does remind me of the days at Tsarskoe Selo!” Vodka certainly would not have brought any such reminder to my niece… My nieces never touched either wine or spirits – and indeed how could they at their age?…” 

On day 3 @ p 177:

"I had the impression that she was getting tired of playing a part someone had assigned to her."

"She did in fact admit that a scar, allegedly resulting from the blows on her head at Ekaterinburg, had been caused by her tubercular condition."

"My refusal to recognize my niece in Mrs Anderson was attributted to a telegram I was supposed to have received from Xenia in England instructing me not to acknowledge the relationship on any account. I never received any such telegram."

"It's a complete fabrication," insisted the Grand Duchess."
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2007, 10:30:19 AM
[size=12]Ra-Ra-Rasputin, I agree with just about everything you say in your post. I would also like to say that you are brave to say that the Slavic languages may sound very similar to the untrained ear - I said something similar in another thread and almost got my head chopped off for it.  :-X :D

I definitely believe that Anna Anderson was coached in languages. Ever since I first read about her "ability to speak Russian" at Dalldorf I have been very suspicious of that whole story. Apparently "all doctors and nurses" at Dalldorf testified that she was "fluent in Russian and spoke freely about matters concerning Russia". All? Dalldorf was a mental asylum, and I cannot help but wonder how come the whole staff there were experts on Russian matters and Russian language.

Later, Anna Anderson refused to speak Russian because "it was spoken in that house" (the Ipatiev house). At Dalldorf she allegedly spoke Russian (it was not impossible for her to speak Russian because of "that house" then...?) but in fact she spoke A LOT more in German. Why, I ask, would she chose to speak German, if Russian was impossible for her to speak (because of "that house"), when English would have been a much more natural and given choice, since Anastasia Nicholaievna spoke English fluently and German hardly at all. The answer is of course - Fräulein Unbekannt, who used to be Franziska Schanzkowska, and was later known as Anna Anderson and finally as Anastasia Manahan, did not speak Russian.

Regarding English and French we only have hearsay as "evidence" of her abilities in these languages. Personally, I do not speak French, but I am sure I could order a breakfast in French if somebody priorly had told me what to say.

I am not sure if Polish was Franziska Schanzkowska's first language or if it was German. We have to remember that in the area where she grew up, German was the "status language". Polish, and even less so, Kashubian, was not. It is therefore likely that the Schanzkowskas said that their sister Franziska spoke "good German" and "a little" Polish or Kashubian (one of her siblings said Polish, another said Kashubian), to "keep up appearences". They may very likely have been equally fluent in German and Polish/Kashubian.

Lastly, I would like to comment something that Ivan S. Komarov wrote.
Quote
Polish, too, is spelled, pronounced, and inflected differently, and is slower than Russian to a certain degree (in fact, the two don't even use the same alphabet).
I am no expert, but to me Polish (and I have some Polish acquaintants) does not sound slower than Russian. In fact, I think Polish sounds very fast. :) And the fact that they do not use the same alphabeths does not imply that they are very different or more distantly related. The use of alphabeth among the Slavic languages is based merely on religion. Russians, Ukrainians, Belorussians, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Serbs are orthodox and use the Cyrillic alphabeth. Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes and Croatians are roman catholics and use the Latin alphabeth. For all practical purposes Serbian anc Croatian are the same langugage. The differences are extremely minor and does not effect the mutual intelligibility between speakers of Serbian and Croatian. The only significant difference between them is actually the alphabeth used to write them.



I'm bringing this forward from the first page because these are both excellent points that need to be seen.

Rebecca's comments make a lot of sense and explain a lot about FS as AA and the language issue.

Ivan's points about the languages are what I've been thinking, and he knows them, so he's an expert.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 04, 2007, 11:04:43 AM
Yes Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna certainly knew her niece the real Grand Duchess Anastasia and could tell very easily that Anna Anderson was a fraud. Anybody looking at her photos can tell that as well. It was all quite obvious before the DNA evidence came out as well.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on August 04, 2007, 12:36:24 PM
I feel so sorry for Olga having to have been harassed and accused of turning her back on her niece. She was not Anastasia and Olga knew it. She wasn't taking in a fraud.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 06, 2007, 10:20:57 AM
precisely
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 06, 2007, 05:05:01 PM
I feel so sorry for Olga having to have been harassed and accused of turning her back on her niece. She was not Anastasia and Olga knew it. She wasn't taking in a fraud.
Yes that is very sad. She had to do all that to keep Anna Anderson from harassing her.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 07, 2007, 01:29:23 PM
I feel so sorry for Olga having to have been harassed and accused of turning her back on her niece. She was not Anastasia and Olga knew it. She wasn't taking in a fraud.
Yes that is very sad. She had to do all that to keep Anna Anderson from harassing her.

Actually, I believe it was Gleb Botkin who was harassing Olga A on AA's behalf... AA had a unique gift of getting others to do her dirty work without seeming to do so...
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 02:08:35 PM
I believe this could well have been the case. There is evidence of threatening letters being sent.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 07, 2007, 03:00:53 PM

Actually, I believe it was Gleb Botkin who was harassing Olga A on AA's behalf... AA had a unique gift of getting others to do her dirty work without seeming to do so...

Yes exactly! He played dirty. He also harrassed poor Xenia, Sandro refered to his "vileness" and Xenia said his behaviour was "cruel and hurtful". That's the last thing they needed! ::)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 07, 2007, 03:12:20 PM

Actually, I believe it was Gleb Botkin who was harassing Olga A on AA's behalf... AA had a unique gift of getting others to do her dirty work without seeming to do so...

Yes exactly! He played dirty. He also harrassed poor Xenia, Sandro refered to his "vileness" and Xenia said his behaviour was "cruel and hurtful". That's the last thing they needed! ::)
He also harassed Alix's sister Irene. Irene did not believe in that nonsense, when they were claiming AA to be A.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on August 07, 2007, 03:15:45 PM

Actually, I believe it was Gleb Botkin who was harassing Olga A on AA's behalf... AA had a unique gift of getting others to do her dirty work without seeming to do so...

Yes exactly! He played dirty. He also harrassed poor Xenia, Sandro refered to his "vileness" and Xenia said his behaviour was "cruel and hurtful". That's the last thing they needed! ::)
He also harassed Alix's sister Irene.

Sounds like he may have been the original pushy, mean, fanatical AA supporter :-\
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 07, 2007, 03:19:51 PM
Yes it is quite amazing how anybody believed in the fraud AA. Those who supported her were vile and either deluded or complicit in committing a falsehood. History will not judge any of them at all well.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on August 07, 2007, 03:30:33 PM
It's also disgraceful how AA and her supporters tried to destroy the reputations of those who denied her with their wild accusations! Xenia, Olga and Gilliard were 'greedy liars', Sophie B. a 'traitor', Ernst of Hesse a spy who committed high treason, she said Felix Y. tried to attack and kill her  ::)  just awful!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 01:38:57 AM
I had always disbelieved AA as Anastasia, but I was floored when it was announced that she most likely was FS. I was amazed because of all the family members villified over the AA case, I felt most badly for Ernst of Hesse. This man spent his own money to find out who AA was and as it turns out, his detectives most likely obtained the correct answer - in 1928! I had so much sympathy for him trying to protect the memory of his sister's child.

And for quotes, I always loved what Olga A said - that people want to believe the fairy tale.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Belochka on August 22, 2007, 02:28:50 AM
I had always disbelieved AA as Anastasia, ...

And for quotes, I always loved what Olga A said - that people want to believe the fairy tale.

Indeed, and the German fairy tale is retold over and over to this day and the next.

Margarita
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on August 22, 2007, 07:14:38 AM

Indeed, and the German fairy tale is retold over and over to this day and the next.

Margarita

Just like the Brothers Grimm collection!  ;)
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 26, 2007, 02:51:18 PM
Looks now as if Yurovsky may have been telling the truth.  http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2324145.ece

The teeth, at least, ought to yield DNA and settle the question.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 06:22:08 PM
What reason would Yurovsky have had to ever lie? He set out to murder them all and he most certainly was very thorough. The evidence is there. None of them escaped at all.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 26, 2007, 08:13:41 PM
Evidently, he didn't have reason to lie.  It's just that people on these forums have questioned whether his reports should have been believed.  Since they are backed up by evidence, it seems they were accurate.  I wish "Unsolved Mysteries" could be brought back to do an update, also there should be a followup to the "Nova" program.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 27, 2007, 12:53:08 AM
I may have asked this before, but I wonder if Anna Anderson was so far gone she could have passed a lie detector test stating she was Grand Duchess Anastasia?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: dmitri on August 27, 2007, 01:36:18 AM
who knows? she certainly wasn't the full quid
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Lemur on August 27, 2007, 09:51:04 AM
What reason would Yurovsky have had to ever lie? He set out to murder them all and he most certainly was very thorough. The evidence is there. None of them escaped at all.

I have always wondered why anyone would say he lied. Why? The Yurovsky is a liar rumors must have come from claimant supporters.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on May 04, 2008, 03:07:01 PM

And among all those emigrees, which one of them knew the story about AN wearing her father's longjohns under her bathrobe in a play that the children performed in Tobolsk? A fact that was revealed when a draft lifted up the back of her robe and showed her sturdy legs in the Tsar's long underwear. AA told this story many, many years before her English tutor mentioned it in his book in 1975.

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

I was just reading "The Last Days of the Romanovs", a book published in 1920. In the testimonies of both Gibbes and Gilliard, there is mention of plays that were put on in Tobolsk. Gilliard also mentions the 'medicines' and hiding the jewels. This was 1920, before AA came to be known to the world in 1922. So the info WAS out there already.

Curiouser and curiouser, the more I read, the more holes I see in AA's story. Just had to point that one out before I forgot.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on June 03, 2008, 08:53:59 PM
hmmmm, lol, i ain't nowhow done ever done heard words like Curiouser and curioser, must be one of them new types of words from one of them fancy languages, but to be fair i all essence of the issues below, I do not believe Gillard to be a betrayer, period. I would like to see scholarly referance to this, with absolute proof.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 04, 2008, 01:44:43 PM
hmmmm, lol, i ain't nowhow done ever done heard words like Curiouser and curioser, must be one of them new types of words from one of them fancy languages,

Actually it's a famous catch phrase from "Alice in Wonderland."

http://www.ruthannzaroff.com/wonderland/curiouser.htm

 But my reference to it was because that is the way our dear Chat Noir likes to end his posts when he's alluding to something 'strange' about the AA case, so I was kind of putting it back the other way to AA supporters.

Quote
but to be fair i all essence of the issues below, I do not believe Gillard to be a betrayer, period. I would like to see scholarly referance to this, with absolute proof.

I never said Gilliard was a betrayer, you misunderstood. I only mentioned the fact that he was one of the people who knew about the sewn in jewels, meaning the sources of information were available to AA in the early 20's and she didn't have any privy 'inside info only Anastasia would know' as AA supporters like to  claim.

Hope this clears things up.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: pandora on June 04, 2008, 07:18:34 PM
hmmmm, lol, i ain't nowhow done ever done heard words like Curiouser and curioser, must be one of them new types of words from one of them fancy languages,

Actually it's a famous catch phrase from "Alice in Wonderland."

Love "Alice in Wonderland"! best catch phrase, imo
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: EmmyLee on June 04, 2008, 08:50:24 PM
Gilliard also mentions the 'medicines' and hiding the jewels. This was 1920, before AA came to be known to the world in 1922. So the info WAS out there already.

Ah ha! I wonder why none of us came across this earlier?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 04, 2008, 11:52:32 PM
Gilliard also mentions the 'medicines' and hiding the jewels. This was 1920, before AA came to be known to the world in 1922. So the info WAS out there already.

Ah ha! I wonder why none of us came across this earlier?

I think the big problem is that most of the people who wrote about AA wrote in her favor, and ignored or neglected to report little things like that which would hurt her case. Most people who have reported her story did so as some compelling mystery and they wanted you to believe in her. At the 1950s trials, Dr. Berenberg-Gossler, the anti-AA attorney, even said that at the press conferences, the media was only interested in the pro AA side because it was more exciting and most editors of papers and magazines told their reporters to leave before the other side could tell their story, leading to only one side being spread around. Now, you have basically two types, the ones who still defend AA and the ones who don't believe in her but think the notion is so silly it's not worth arguing over. Unfortunately, that attitude only allows more people to be misled by the AA supporters, because though we here on AP are knowledgeable on it all, most of the general public are not. They may have only a casual interest and only know basic info. You'd be surprised how many otherwise smart people don't know any better. This is why I made my website, to explain away all the silly myths the AA supporters still sell like snake oil.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: StevenL on June 05, 2008, 06:16:49 AM
This is why I made my website, to explain away all the silly myths the AA supporters still sell like snake oil.

The newest myth arising from "Andersonville" implies the scientists are hapless dupes of some conspirators who re-buried stolen fragments of the same skeletons found years ago. They say this is why there were so few fragments present in the newer grave. I'd almost wonder how they explain that some fragments belong to a young male with the Hesse DNA profile, while nothing at all was found of Alexei in the earlier burial site, but anything they'd have to say would undoubtedly involve further totally unsubstantiated allegations of plots and conspiracies.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2008, 10:35:37 AM
This is why I made my website, to explain away all the silly myths the AA supporters still sell like snake oil.

The newest myth arising from "Andersonville" implies the scientists are hapless dupes of some conspirators who re-buried stolen fragments of the same skeletons found years ago. They say this is why there were so few fragments present in the newer grave. I'd almost wonder how they explain that some fragments belong to a young male with the Hesse DNA profile, while nothing at all was found of Alexei in the earlier burial site, but anything they'd have to say would undoubtedly involve further totally unsubstantiated allegations of plots and conspiracies.


Oh yes, that's sad but true, thanks for posting (always good to see somebody besides me telling the story!) Don't they realize that the reason there are so few bones in this grave compared with the other ones is because, unlike the ones in the original grave, these were BURNED? (just as the Bolsheviks said they were?!)

But of course, all Russians are liars you can't trust :rolleyes: and all scientists must be either paid off or very stupid (how did they ever get their degrees and jobs, maybe they were falsified by the Russians who plotted this years ago :rolleyes: ) Do they really think they're so stupid they don't know the difference between a newly found burned fragment and a leftover piece snuck in from the old grave?! Their reasoning is unfathomable and unrealistic to put it kindly. It's enough to drive a sane person over the edge just thinking about it.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 05, 2008, 10:37:29 AM
SPECULATION:

Maybe Gilliard was the "betrayer" and was the one who helped AA gain her information and once she knew what he knew told him to take a hike and that is why he became one of her worst enemies.

Annie is always blaming Botkin, who was off in the USA and was no where near AA in those early days of her claiming she was GD Anastasia,   BUT,  Gilliard was right there and near her and who would have been better to teach the languages to AA than a tutor who taught the Romanov children?

I believe it was Gilliard who destroyed evidence and had to admit to this fact in AA's trial when the judge asked that he provide it to the court.

 AGRBear


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2008, 10:56:46 AM
SPECULATION:

Maybe Gilliard was the "betrayer" and was the one who helped AA gain her information and once she knew what he knew told him to take a hike and that is why he became one of her worst enemies.

Annie is always blaming Botkin, who was off in the USA and was no where near AA in those early days of her claiming she was GD Anastasia,   BUT,  Gilliard was right there and near her and who would have been better to teach the languages to AA than a tutor who taught the Romanov children?

I believe it was Gilliard who destroyed evidence and had to admit to this fact in AA's trial when the judge asked that he provide it to the court.

 AGRBear




You know bear, I have even considered that possibility myself, that MAYBE Gilliard was originally going to be in on her charade before they fell out and became enemies (maybe his conscience bothered him?) IF this happened, it would explain how she got some of her inside info, though there were other opportunities and books too. I always say I don't think Botkin was the first or only, but I do think he was in on it. IMO it's actually LESS of an insult to think that he was a cunning, creative mastermind than some dimwit who couldn't tell the real AN and got duped. I really can't accept that last option, because I believe anyone who knew the real AN even as well as he and his sister did would not be fooled, at least not for very long. He kept it up for decades, and IMO probably became as looney as she was in the end.

It would be SO interesting to investigate and find out who helped her, when, how and why, but sadly every time we've tried to discuss this the conversation always turns back to 'maybe she really was AN', a fight breaks out, thread locked, same old story with no results. Of course it would all be speculation, because I'm sure anyone involved in any kind of fraud destroyed their evidence and took their secrets to their graves so how can we find 'proof'? The only proof we have is, AA was not AN, so how did AA do it and who helped her?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 05, 2008, 11:17:43 AM
Solokov was just as bad as Gilliard.  He omitted a lot evidence found by the investigators who were on the case long before he arrived.  And Gen. Dietrickhs (I always spell his name wrong, sorry folks) was worst.  It was probably under his orders that poor old Jemmy was killed and his little body was placed in the bottom of the mine just a few weeks before the Whites pulled out of Ekaterinburg.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 05, 2008, 12:30:55 PM
hmmmm, lol, i ain't nowhow done ever done heard words like Curiouser and curioser, must be one of them new types of words from one of them fancy languages...

Obviously someone never heard of Alice in Wonderland... Shame, it's a good book... Quite a classic...


I have even considered that possibility myself, that MAYBE Gilliard was originally going to be in on her charade before they fell out and became enemies (maybe his conscience bothered him?) IF this happened, it would explain how she got some of her inside info...

It could very well have been Gilliard, or someone else. Any way you look at it, someone had to fill her in. Does it really matter that much who did? Fact is, someone definitely did... End of story.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 05, 2008, 10:48:09 PM

I was just reading "The Last Days of the Romanovs", a book published in 1920. In the testimonies of both Gibbes and Gilliard, there is mention of plays that were put on in Tobolsk. Gilliard also mentions the 'medicines' and hiding the jewels. This was 1920, before AA came to be known to the world in 1922. So the info WAS out there already.

..[in part]...

I have a copy of Wilton's book and it was not written in German but published here in the USA.  If AA was FS, who could NOT read or write English, then she needed to have someone else read it for her then translate to her the contents of  THE LAST DAYS of THE ROMANOVS.

The book does not mention that it was published in any other language.

I believe by the time the book was selling in the stores,  AA had already told the nurse at Dalldorf that she was GD Anastasia.

Since AA was not visited by "outsiders" until 1922,  her source had to have been someone she met before Feb. of 1920.

To add to this,  if AA had read the book without any assissants, then this proves she knew English well enough to read a 428 page book.

It's late.   If I have time tomorrow I'll look for the exact quotes Annie mentioned about the "jewelry" sewn in the under garments and the plays, unless Annie would be so kind to do so for us.  If not,  could you tell me the page numbers.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 05, 2008, 11:49:32 PM


I have a copy of Wilton's book and it was not written in German but published here in the USA.  If AA was FS, who could NOT read or write English, then she needed to have someone else read it for her then translate to her the contents of  THE LAST DAYS of THE ROMANOVS.

The book does not mention that it was published in any other language.

Anyone who knew the Romanovs knew several languages, and could have told her.

Quote
I believe by the time the book was selling in the stores,  AA had already told the nurse at Dalldorf that she was GD Anastasia.

No the book was out in 1920. The nurse story cannot be taken as hard fact because there really is no proof other than ONE person's word that it ever even happened. When she talked to the paper, she said it happened in 1922, then later tried to back and say it was supposed to be 1921 but the paper got it wrong. This was just her excuse when she realized she needed to predate the open AN claim. I put no value in the nurse story so it's really not even a  factor. AA never got the idea to be a GD until Clara P. showed her that pic in 1922, and it was Tatiana.

Quote
Since AA was not visited by "outsiders" until 1922,  her source had to have been someone she met before Feb. of 1920.

No, anyone she knew after she started talking about it would work, because she didn't talk until she had information.

Quote
To add to this,  if AA had read the book without any assissants, then this proves she knew English well enough to read a 428 page book.

So she may not have read it but got the info from a supporter. What we were going on here was not only that the book was out there but that Gilliard himself knew the info and could possibly have told her.

Quote
It's late.   If I have time tomorrow I'll look for the exact quotes Annie mentioned about the "jewelry" sewn in the under garments and the plays, unless Annie would be so kind to do so for us.  If not,  could you tell me the page numbers.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Yawn. I'm very tired and it's 3 hours later for me than it is you, and I sure don't feel like looking for it but I know if I don't dig it out right now you'll accuse me of being 'fact free', lying, making up, etc., so here you go:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=YxIEAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22last+days+of+the+romanovs%22+wilton&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BMFaH5UE9U&sig=3KGBlrxbGlfIR01Q5lWMBIPIJIE#PPA30,M1

Page 30

Chapter Examination of Gilliard

I can't copy and paste since it's pdf so here:

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2144/medicinescg7.th.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=medicinescg7.jpg)

I can't find Gibbes right now and I don't remember if it was in his examination or some other part of the book. I can look later when I have time, in the meantime the link is there for anyone else who wants to look. I am not in school, I'm not at work, and I don't have a deadline for my assignment.

edit forgot about the plays will look later, again it's right there in the link for anyone else to search Gilliard's and Gibbe's chapters are very early in the book

and while I certainly do not have time to dig through them, it's very possible Bux's books mention it as well, since she had to have known about it too.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2008, 10:17:39 AM
For some reason my post didn't post correctly.
See my next post which is a responce to Annie.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2008, 10:33:30 AM


I have a copy of Wilton's book and it was not written in German but published here in the USA.  If AA was FS, who could NOT read or write English, then she needed to have someone else read it for her then translate to her the contents of  THE LAST DAYS of THE ROMANOVS.

The book does not mention that it was published in any other language.

Anyone who knew the Romanovs knew several languages, and could have told her.

Bear: Yes, anyone could have told her but who?  That's the question and we don't have any proof, only speculations.

Quote
Quote
I believe by the time the book was selling in the stores,  AA had already told the nurse at Dalldorf that she was GD Anastasia.

No the book was out in 1920. The nurse story cannot be taken as hard fact because there really is no proof other than ONE person's word that it ever even happened. When she talked to the paper, she said it happened in 1922, then later tried to back and say it was supposed to be 1921 but the paper got it wrong. This was just her excuse when she realized she needed to predate the open AN claim. I put no value in the nurse story so it's really not even a  factor. AA never got the idea to be a GD until Clara P. showed her that pic in 1922, and it was Tatiana.

Bear: We've confirmed the book was out in 1920 after AA jumped into the canal. 
The nurse was  a wittness at AA's trial and told the court what she knew about AA.

As for the date of 1922 vs 1921,  we know very well that newspapers can and do make errors.  I believe she explained why she remembered it as being 1921.

You may dismiss the nurses' testimony, but let's say for the sake of this discussion that AA did tell her about the jewelry and the play in 1921.   I doubt the nurse was part of the suggested conspiracy to prove AA was GD Anatasia.  More than likely she was someone being used without her knowledge by the suggested conspiritors who hoped to prove AA was GD Anatasia.


Quote
Quote
Since AA was not visited by "outsiders" until 1922,  her source had to have been someone she met before Feb. of 1920.

No, anyone she knew after she started talking about it would work, because she didn't talk until she had information.

Bear: I'm repeating myself here but it stresses what I'm trying to establish: This is why she had to have known all that she needed to know before she jumped into the canal...

Quote
Quote
To add to this,  if AA had read the book without any assissants, then this proves she knew English well enough to read a 428 page book.

So she may not have read it but got the info from a supporter. What we were going on here was not only that the book was out there but that Gilliard himself knew the info and could possibly have told her.

Bear: If AA had a supportor (fellow conspirator) then who could it have been before Feb of 1920? 

After she was released, did she continue using the same person?

We don't know.  Do we?

Could she have done all of this on her own between 17 July 1918 to Feb. of 1920?   If  AA was FS then I don't see how it was possible. 


Quote
Quote
It's late.   If I have time tomorrow I'll look for the exact quotes Annie mentioned about the "jewelry" sewn in the under garments and the plays, unless Annie would be so kind to do so for us.  If not,  could you tell me the page numbers.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Yawn. I'm very tired and it's 3 hours later for me than it is you, and I sure don't feel like looking for it but I know if I don't dig it out right now you'll accuse me of being 'fact free', lying, making up, etc., so here you go:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=YxIEAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22last+days+of+the+romanovs%22+wilton&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BMFaH5UE9U&sig=3KGBlrxbGlfIR01Q5lWMBIPIJIE#PPA30,M1

Page 30

Chapter Examination of Gilliard

I can't copy and paste since it's pdf so here:

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/2144/medicinescg7.th.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=medicinescg7.jpg)

I can't find Gibbes right now and I don't remember if it was in his examination or some other part of the book. I can look later when I have time, in the meantime the link is there for anyone else who wants to look. I am not in school, I'm not at work, and I don't have a deadline for my assignment.

edit forgot about the plays will look later, again it's right there in the link for anyone else to search Gilliard's and Gibbe's chapters are very early in the book

and while I certainly do not have time to dig through them, it's very possible Bux's books mention it as well, since she had to have known about it too.
[/quote]


Bear: THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS  is an interesting read and tells you alot about Wilton and his own attitudes.

I'll take a quick look this morning to find the other quote.  If I can't find it this morning,  I will do so later, and let you know where you can find it.

I don't have an answer about Buxhoveden's book.  Why don't you take a look and let us know if she did or didn't,  Annie.

I'd like to make this perfectly clear:  All of this continues to be merely speculation.   Neither Annie nor I have any proof that AA was part of a conspiracy before or after she jumped into the canal. 


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 06, 2008, 11:09:14 AM
There was more than one nurse who spoke about AA.

This is one of my earlier posts in this thread when we were talking about AA's ability to speak different languages.

Peter Kurth, ANATASIA, p. 10:

>>The nures at Dalldorf had never doubted that Fraulein Unbekannt was Russian.  It wasn't just her "Eastern" accent or the fact that she spoke foreign languages in her sleep,  "She spoke Russian like a native," said Erna Bucholz, a former German teacher who had lived in Russia,  "not like a foreigner who has learned Russian."  Nurse Bucholz had been the first to take care of Fraulein Unbekannt at Dalldorf...<<

It appears that Nurse Bucholz lived in Russia and was acquainted with the Russian language.

I wonderd by what Bucholz meant that AA spoke Russian like a native even though she does add that she thought AA hadn't learned Russian as a new language. 

I do not know enough about Russian but I assume there is a difference between the Russian the peasants spoke and the Royals.

All this is clearified in her testimony:

p. 10

>>During the nightshift I had a special opportunity to converse with her, as generally she could not sleep... I told her one evening that I cam from Russia, talked about the cathedral in Moscow [St. Masil's] and spoke about Russian matters in general.  She nodded and said she knew all this... I asked her if she could speak Russian.  She answered.  "Yes," whereupon we began to converse in Russian.  She did not speak it faulitly.  Rather, she used whole, complete, connected sentences without any impediments...  I absolutely got the imprssion that the patient was completely conversant in the Russian language, russian affairs and expecially Russian military matters.<<

So, this was in the summer of 1920.

When did FS learn how to speak Russian well enough to fool a German-Russian.

There is a difference between a German going into Russia to teach German than a German-Russian who lived in Russia, who was educated in Russia where she  gain a teacher's certifiate in Russia and taught German.

When Bucholz talks about the Russian language she used words such as "connected setences without impediments".

I know it's difficult for many of you to understand why there would be so many people in an asylum who were aware of the Russian language.  Remember, there were 50,000 Russians who fled Russia and were in and around Berlin by 1920.  A portion of them were German-Russians like Bucholz.

Making blanket statements that Bucholz wasn't qualified to know the difference between someone speaking Russian like a peasant or like an educated person doesn't make it truth.

Sure, someone could have paid Bucholz to lie, but,  I have never seen evidence that this is true.

I can only go by the weight of the evidence provided and since this was spoken in court,  I weight this is evidence which is quite believeable.

So,  when and from whom  did FS learn proper Russian before she jumped into the Berlin canal because she knew it by the time Bucholz spoke to her in the summer of 1920?

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear



I'm not placing it here to prove what languages AA spoke,  only to provide more evidence that AA, if she was FS,  knew Russian before the summer of 1920.

Again,  I am assuming that this nurse is also telling us the truth about her observations of AA.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 12:37:40 PM

Bear: Yes, anyone could have told her but who?  That's the question and we don't have any proof, only speculations.

We will NEVER have 'proof', since no one ever admitted to it and now they're all dead. The fact remains, there were a half million Russian emigres in Berlin in 1920, many had known the family, several people came to see AA. The window of opportunity is there and very large.
Add to this the fact that we KNOW THAT AA WAS FS AND NOT AN so therefore she HAD to have been told by someone else. Please don't let this drift back into the abyss of question of identity, I thought this time we were going to go on the basis that AA is FS.

Quote


Bear: We've confirmed the book was out in 1920 after AA jumped into the canal. 
The nurse was  a wittness at AA's trial and told the court what she knew about AA.

As for the date of 1922 vs 1921,  we know very well that newspapers can and do make errors.  I believe she explained why she remembered it as being 1921.

You may dismiss the nurses' testimony, but let's say for the sake of this discussion that AA did tell her about the jewelry and the play in 1921.   I doubt the nurse was part of the suggested conspiracy to prove AA was GD Anatasia.  More than likely she was someone being used without her knowledge by the suggested conspiritors who hoped to prove AA was GD Anatasia.

I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault) She may well have been being used by someone else, but I don't believe it was without her knowledge. I believe she was deliberately supposed to play the part of adding a chapter into the story that didn't exist- that AA 'came out' as "AN" before she was 'Tatiana' to Clara p. I DO NOT ACCEPT THIS AT ALL! Think about it, it makes no sense! Once her claim was public everyone came running.If she had said it earlier, they'd have come earlier. No sorry I don't believe the old 'she was scared and the nurse promised not to tell' theory, because for one, if she had been AN and been 'scared' she never would have said anything, and two, SHE WAS NOT AN so she wouldn't have said it.

My personal view is that the incident either never happened, or happened in 1922.

Quote
I'd like to make this perfectly clear:  All of this continues to be merely speculation.   Neither Annie nor I have any proof that AA was part of a conspiracy before or after she jumped into the canal.  [/font]

AGRBear

Yes it is because that's all we have.

I want to make it clear that I do not and have never believed that AA knew anything before she jumped in the canal. I believe she didn't begin her claim until Clara showed her the pics in 1922.

I do not believe anyone preplanned to set her up to pretend to be AN (a la the Anastasia cartoon), what I think is that several people used it to their own advantage and jumped at the opportunity AFTER the idea was already out there (thanks to Clara P)

I will be back with more quotes from the book.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 12:58:48 PM
Plays

Page 90, Examination of Kobylinsky:

..."Sometimes in the evening the Emperor used to read aloud while everyone listened. Sometimes plays were staged, usually French or English. Tea was served at eight o'clock and a conversation would take place until eleven but never later than twelve o'clock. After that everybody retired...

"Medicines"

Page 288-289

Here we must record a circumstance which was destined to play an important part in the detection of the murders at Ekaterinburg. Before separating, it had been understood between mother and daughters that they would take measures to safeguard the jewels that had been brought with them from Tsarskoe, worth not less than a million gold rubles.

A letter from the maid Demidova in Ekaterinburg gave the necessary indications. The Grand Duchesses were to 'dispose of the "medicines" as had been agreed'. This meant that the jewels had to be secreted into their clothing in such a way as to escape search (Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had been searched very thoroughly and brutally) For several days, the Grand Duchesses and their trusted servants worked at the task, sewing up the jewels in their bodices, their hats, and even inside their buttons.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: halen on June 06, 2008, 01:16:26 PM
Annie, now that you have mentioned FORT, have you read the book yet?

Louise
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 02:43:02 PM
Since you, halen, have seen fit to block my personal messages, (though I never tried to send you one before just now) apparently you are attempting to drag me into a mess on the open forum. Some of you enjoy baiting me, and your refusal to talk to me in private proves this is your interest. If you refuse my PMs, I have nothing to say to you, and will ignore you from here on out.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: halen on June 06, 2008, 06:22:35 PM
It is an honor to be on your ignore list. Thank you.

Louise
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 06:49:06 PM
I actually don't have an ignore list, and have never blocked anyone's PMs. I just don't speak to people who enjoy baiting me on the forum to get a reaction instead of talking it out in private.

Okay bear, what have you got? Have you found anything else? If you look over to the side of the book pages on that link there's a very useful search feature where you can look up words and phrases. It's very helpful and saves you having to dig through all those pages when you can't recall which chapter you need.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 06, 2008, 09:57:10 PM
It is incumbent to point out that Annie  has not read Fate of the Romanovs during the entire time she has made statements about the content of the book. The reader can then determine how seriously her points need to be considered.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 11:32:12 PM
The name of the thread is "Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier." I will not be a participant in attempts to drag the OT garbage from the FOTR thread over here.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 06, 2008, 11:39:48 PM
Quote
I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault)

Then stop taking gratuitous swipes, and this thread will stay on topic. Frankly, after the stunt you pulled for the past four years, I am amazed you have the effrontery to mention the book at all. No, scratch that. After that stunt, nothing surprises me.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 06, 2008, 11:44:58 PM


Then stop taking gratuitous swipes,

RIGHT BACK AT YA, not only to me but Alixz, Herr Kaiser and anyone else you feel like bullying. Why any mod would allow you to continue to terrorize this forum is unfathomable.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 06, 2008, 11:48:18 PM
I suppose out of charity, the same charity they displayed in allowing a liar and a bully --- that would be you, btw --- to pollute the threads with your nasty hysteria. The ways of the mods are inscrutable indeed. However, if you take gratuitous swipes, I will be there to contradict you. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2008, 11:23:57 AM
I do NOT lie, I have even admitted that I didn't read the damn book- do you know how easy it would be to just say I did? But I'm no liar! Of course it suits you well to attack my credibility in order to trash my rep to anyone who reads my posts, just as any criminal rubs out his adversary. You have also accused me of other things I never did, such as misquoting Massie (you couldn't tell where my quote of him stopped and my commentary started even though I put his in italics for that reason), you accused me once of editing a post days later when there was no 'edited by' on it and we were by then unable to edit after an hour, and was it you or Tsarfan who accused me of turning you into Lisa for the negative 'sarcastic' comment in the thread I hadn't even read? You are either paranoid or trying to frame me up. I am no liar, I am too honest, which is probably why I get myself in trouble so much. Bully? No, I'm very nice, it's you and Tsarfan who are bullies, like mean kids, and I am not your only victim. Just look at how you stalked me to this thread to bring up a fight in a different thread! You and Tsarfan did the same thing in the 'how do you put someone on ignore' thread even though no names were mentioned. Your actions would get you banned or at least reprimanded on any other board on the internet but apparently you have some kind of hold on the mods here and they let you run free to insult and harass and drag old fights into new threads and take them OT.  How sad that with all the money you guys have you can't think of anything more entertaining to do.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 07, 2008, 12:29:33 PM
Don't even.. And I hate to disappoint you (and I can't tell you how much it disappoints me), but I am relatively poor.

Quote
Of course it suits you well to attack my credibility in order to trash my rep to anyone who reads my posts, just as any criminal rubs out his adversary

You have no credibility, not any more.  And I am not stalking you. I did not contest anything you have to say about Anderson, have no intention of messing about with it anymore, even though you are a little fuzzy with the dates.

After listening to you bitch about and vilify Fate of the Romanovs for years, it turns out you haven't even read the damned book. Frankly, I have no idea what you have read, since you seem to get information from the ether ("each president is allowed two hits", I mean what the hell?). Feel free to churn along with this sort of thing, although don't be (1) surprised or (2) offended if people question assertions like that. "They're bullies! They're bullies!" Puh-lease. But you cannot take a swipe at the book out of nowhere:

Quote
I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault)

 . . . and expect that garbage like that will go unchallenged precisely because you don't know what hell you are talking about. I have tried ignoring you; that doesn't work, because you persist in taking cracks. Okay, take cracks. But fortunately, the posts are numbered, so people can see where this started and who started it, Annie.

Quote
Your actions would get you banned or at least reprimanded on any other board on the internet but apparently you have some kind of hold on the mods here and they let you run free

I am holding Lisa Davidson's children prisoner in my basement. I am blackmailing Rob Moshein with my evidence that he is responsible for the cost of crude oil spiking. They cower at the very mention of my name. I am Louis_Charles, King of Kings! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!

Will you kindly get a grip? And go back to explaining why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna? So I can happily return to ignoring you?

Simon

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Forum Admin on June 07, 2008, 01:13:35 PM
May we all please RETURN TO TOPIC?

Simon, you PROMISED not to mention that oil price thing in PUBLIC!!!!  :D
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2008, 01:34:08 PM


You have no credibility, not any more.

I realize this is and has been your goal!

Quote
And I am not stalking you. I did not contest anything you have to say about Anderson, have no intention of messing about with it anymore, even though you are a little fuzzy with the dates.

What dates? And yes you are stalking me, from thread to thread, you must keep checking my posting history to make sure I haven't mentioned FOTR!

Quote
After listening to you bitch about and vilify Fate of the Romanovs for years, it turns out you haven't even read the damned book.

1. It hasn't been but a couple years, before that it was others, the ones who showed me the light. I never thought it was a big secret I didn't read it, I made it perfectly clear all along I didn't own a copy and my library didn't carry it, and I frequently asked others for page quotes. What I have said about the book- usually in conjunction with others, though somehow now I get ALL the blame- came from direct quotes that are indeed in the book, and sources that don't match up. This has been proven by several people who know Russian. I don't have to read the book, because the only parts I contest are layed out in detail and that's all I needed to see- stuff is wrong. As a matter of fact, who would want to read a book that has been proven to have that many inaccuracies, I wouldn't be able to take it seriously anyway after that. You say you don't like 'lying'  or 'making stuff up' yet you back up a book with blatant in accuracies! This PROVES you don't really care about getting details right, it's all about who did what- you like her so you defend her regardless even though she's wrong. But trying to accuse me of being inaccurate is hypocritical under the circumstances!

Quote
Frankly, I have no idea what you have read, since you seem to get information from the ether ("each president is allowed two hits", I mean what the hell?).

As Alix and I both said, just because we mention something is not an endorsement of the belief. I know anything we say can and will be used against us (and twisted, taken out of context, slanted the other direction, etc., while other parts are completey ignored when they don't suit your cause of attacking your victim)

Quote
"They're bullies! They're bullies!" Puh-lease.

I am far from the only person who feels this way, you know. You ARE bullies, and you DO enjoy it.

Quote
But you cannot take a swipe at the book out of nowhere:



That's not out of nowhere, it tied right in. The other day I saw a person on another forum question how Penny could comdemn Shay McNeal's book when hers was so full of inaccuracies. I did not know this person. It's a free world for people to have opinions on books.

 
Quote
. . . and expect that garbage like that will go unchallenged precisely because you don't know what hell you are talking about. I have tried ignoring you; that doesn't work, because you persist in taking cracks. Okay, take cracks. But fortunately, the posts are numbered, so people can see where this started and who started it, Annie.

Well excuse me FOTR POLICE PATROL! How would you even know if you weren't stalking all my posts? As far as 'who started what' if anyone wants to do research, they can see full well I came in very late to the FOTR argument, and that you have always taken swipes at me. In this thread, yeah, so I mentioned it, whatever, it fit into the thread. It's clear you ARE following me around to see what I post about FOTR so you can quickly discredit me to anyone who might see it. In all the other threads, let them speak for themselves, though sadly the first two FOTR threads that were deleted for 'fighting' were much better, but the wrong side was losing. Once the desired outcome was achieved, (you guys browbeating me and Helen backing out) the mods allowed it to stand, 'fighting' and all.


Quote
I am holding Lisa Davidson's children prisoner in my basement. I am blackmailing Rob Moshein with my evidence that he is responsible for the cost of crude oil spiking. They cower at the very mention of my name. I am Louis_Charles, King of Kings! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!

What is tsarfan's story? Really, others were banned for less than what you've done for so long!

Quote
Will you kindly get a grip? And go back to explaining why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna? So I can happily return to ignoring you?

Simon



Well bear and I had a nice investigation going until you followed me over here to lecture me about not saying anything bad about your buddy's book.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 07, 2008, 01:36:43 PM
Well, no, FA, apparently we cannot go back to topic.

*snickers*
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2008, 01:38:18 PM
May we all please RETURN TO TOPIC?



Yes I hope so!
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: StevenL on June 07, 2008, 01:51:19 PM
Well, no, FA, apparently we cannot go back to topic.

Please explain why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 07, 2008, 01:59:26 PM

You have no credibility, not any more.

I realize this is and has been your goal!

Thanks for helping me reach my goal! Couldn't have done it without you! No, really!

Quote
Quote
And I am not stalking you. I did not contest anything you have to say about Anderson, have no intention of messing about with it anymore, even though you are a little fuzzy with the dates.

What dates? And yes you are stalking me, from thread to thread, you must keep checking my posting history to make sure I haven't mentioned FOTR![/quote

Quote
After listening to you bitch about and vilify Fate of the Romanovs for years, it turns out you haven't even read the damned book.

1. It hasn't been but a couple years, before that it was others, the ones who showed me the light. I never thought it was a big secret I didn't read it, I made it perfectly clear all along I didn't own a copy and my library didn't carry it, and I frequently asked others for page quotes. What I have said about the book- usually in conjunction with others, though somehow now I get ALL the blame- came from direct quotes that are indeed in the book, and sources that don't match up. This has been proven by several people who know Russian. I don't have to read the book, because the only parts I contest are layed out in detail and that's all I needed to see- stuff is wrong. As a matter of fact, who would want to read a book that has been proven to have that many inaccuracies, I wouldn't be able to take it seriously anyway after that. You say you don't like 'lying'  or 'making stuff up' yet you back up a book with blatant in accuracies! This PROVES you don't really care about getting details right, it's all about who did what- you like her so you defend her regardless even though she's wrong. But trying to accuse me of being inaccurate is hypocritical under the circumstances!

You were PMing me in 2005 about how vile Penny Wilson was, toots. I assume your hatred took a few months to ferment, so let's push it back to late 2004 if you'd like. Not a "couple" of years. Years.

Quote
Quote
Frankly, I have no idea what you have read, since you seem to get information from the ether ("each president is allowed two hits", I mean what the hell?).

As Alix and I both said, just because we mention something is not an endorsement of the belief. I know anything we say can and will be used against us (and twisted, taken out of context, slanted the other direction, etc., while other parts are completey ignored when they don't suit your cause of attacking your victim)

Quote
"They're bullies! They're bullies!" Puh-lease.

I am far from the only person who feels this way, you know. You ARE bullies, and you DO enjoy it.

Nope, to both charges. You instigate fights --- the initial crack was directed at me and Tsarfan while we were arguing with Alixz on the Elections thread. You thrive upon personal, mean-spirited fights. I like arguments, and can get sharp, but I don't get hysterical and I don't get paranoid.

Quote
But you cannot take a swipe at the book out of nowhere:



That's not out of nowhere, it tied right in. The other day I saw a person on another forum question how Penny could comdemn Shay McNeal's book when hers was so full of inaccuracies. I did not know this person. It's a free world for people to have opinions on books.

Yes. Books that they have, you know, actually read.

 
Quote
. . . and expect that garbage like that will go unchallenged precisely because you don't know what hell you are talking about. I have tried ignoring you; that doesn't work, because you persist in taking cracks. Okay, take cracks. But fortunately, the posts are numbered, so people can see where this started and who started it, Annie.

Well excuse me FOTR POLICE PATROL! How would you even know if you weren't stalking all my posts? As far as 'who started what' if anyone wants to do research, they can see full well I came in very late to the FOTR argument, and that you have always taken swipes at me. In this thread, yeah, so I mentioned it, whatever, it fit into the thread. It's clear you ARE following me around to see what I post about FOTR so you can quickly discredit me to anyone who might see it. In all the other threads, let them speak for themselves, though sadly the first two FOTR threads that were deleted for 'fighting' were much better, but the wrong side was losing. Once the desired outcome was achieved, (you guys browbeating me and Helen backing out) the mods allowed it to stand, 'fighting' and all.

They did more than that, I think. Lisa seemed rather appalled that you hadn't read the book. You may want to consider the possibility that they disagreed with your positions, or at least the way you choose to express them. Just sayin'.

Quote
Quote
I am holding Lisa Davidson's children prisoner in my basement. I am blackmailing Rob Moshein with my evidence that he is responsible for the cost of crude oil spiking. They cower at the very mention of my name. I am Louis_Charles, King of Kings! Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!

What is tsarfan's story? Really, others were banned for less than what you've done for so long!

He gave a reasonably detailed account of his life on the US Elections thread in response to your insinuation that his world view is colored by wealth. Other than that, ask him.

Quote
Will you kindly get a grip? And go back to explaining why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna? So I can happily return to ignoring you?

Simon


Well bear and I had a nice investigation going until you followed me over here to lecture me about not saying anything bad about your buddy's book.

Yep. Hope you return to it. Without saying anything bad about my buddy's book. Otherwise, to use language that will make sense to your seventh-grade crack, I'll meet you under the flagpole right after school.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 07, 2008, 02:03:04 PM
Well, no, FA, apparently we cannot go back to topic.

Please explain why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna.


*runs off wailing into the night*

Annie? I think this one is for you.

Sorry, StevenL, not my area.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: StevenL on June 07, 2008, 02:13:03 PM
Sorry, StevenL, not my area.

Then why are you posting at all to this thread? You said just above that this thread could not go back to the original topic,
and that was what I was trying to accomplish for everyone --going back closer to the original topic.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Louis_Charles on June 07, 2008, 02:33:14 PM
If you read the jolly exchanges  above, you will see why I am posting to the thread.

However, if it makes you happy:

(1) the DNA evidence does not support the identification of Anna Anderson with Anastasia Romanov.
(2) no one has successfully impeached the DNA evidence.
(3) bones were uncovered last year which in all probability will turn out to be those of Alexei and whichever Grand Duchess wasn't in the main grave.
(4) not only did the DNA not place Anderson into the Hessian gene pool, it did strongly indicate that she was a member of the same genetic family to which Franziska Schanzkowska would have belonged.

Failing a successful challenge to the DNA tests, and ultimately to the forensic evidence unearthed in 2007 (should it prove a match), Anderson could not have been Anastasia. In all likelihood, she was Schanzkowska. I do not care if people do not accept that as written in stone, but she could not have been Anastasia.

As you can see, Annie and I agree upon this fundamental issue.

I must say that I do not regard this as an important issue: Anderson is dead, Jack Manahan is dead, and the Imperial Family members are dead.

So there it is.

Simon
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2008, 03:49:57 PM
Well, no, FA, apparently we cannot go back to topic.

Please explain why Anna Anderson could not have been Anastasia Nicholaevna.


I don't feel like typing that much, please see my website in my sig, I've put all my views and reasons in there. Let me know if you have issues with anything.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 07, 2008, 03:52:53 PM
If you read the jolly exchanges  above, you will see why I am posting to the thread.

However, if it makes you happy:

(1) the DNA evidence does not support the identification of Anna Anderson with Anastasia Romanov.
(2) no one has successfully impeached the DNA evidence.
(3) bones were uncovered last year which in all probability will turn out to be those of Alexei and whichever Grand Duchess wasn't in the main grave.
(4) not only did the DNA not place Anderson into the Hessian gene pool, it did strongly indicate that she was a member of the same genetic family to which Franziska Schanzkowska would have belonged.

Failing a successful challenge to the DNA tests, and ultimately to the forensic evidence unearthed in 2007 (should it prove a match), Anderson could not have been Anastasia. In all likelihood, she was Schanzkowska. I do not care if people do not accept that as written in stone, but she could not have been Anastasia.

As you can see, Annie and I agree upon this fundamental issue.

I must say that I do not regard this as an important issue: Anderson is dead, Jack Manahan is dead, and the Imperial Family members are dead.

So there it is.

Simon

The problem with most of her supporters is not just that they refute the DNA tests, they will also claim that even if they are accurate it doesn't matter because the intestines weren't hers (they sway back and forth, sometimes dissing the DNA, other times using the switch theory) So there will NEVER be an end to this because they aren't going to accept the results.

That's why I shut down my AA forum, everything with them ends with 'prove the intestines were hers in court or you have nothing' to which I reply the burden of proof is on them to prove they weren't, and they disagree, and the dog chases his tail.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: StevenL on June 07, 2008, 06:43:31 PM
If you read the jolly exchanges  above, you will see why I am posting to the thread.

Okay. I just was asking as you seemed to be "disowning" it all more immediately above.

Thank you for the explanation. As a newbie here, I must say there
seems to be some other strong tensions at work since you and Annie
essentially agree on this topic. I hope you all can both resolve it
off-lines before too long, as otherwise these discussions are interesting,
even if the principals are now all dead, and the veil of mystery
surrounding them now wholly torn off.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 08, 2008, 10:54:19 AM
Quote from: AGRBear link=topic=6759.msg320447#msg320447 date=1212766410\

...[in part
...
Bear: We've confirmed the book was out in 1920 after AA jumped into the canal. 
The nurse was  a wittness at AA's trial and told the court what she knew about AA.

As for the date of 1922 vs 1921,  we know very well that newspapers can and do make errors.  I believe she explained why she remembered it as being 1921.

You may dismiss the nurses' testimony....   I doubt the nurse was part of the suggested conspiracy to prove AA was GD Anatasia.  More than likely she was someone being used without her knowledge by the suggested conspiritors who hoped to prove AA was GD Anatasia.

I don't believe the nurse, or that the paper made a mistake (any more than I believe the 'mistakes' in FOTR were the editor's fault) She may well have been being used by someone else, but I don't believe it was without her knowledge. I believe she was deliberately supposed to play the part of adding a chapter into the story that didn't exist- that AA 'came out' as "AN" before she was 'Tatiana' to Clara p. I DO NOT ACCEPT THIS AT ALL! Think about it, it makes no sense! Once her claim was public everyone came running.If she had said it earlier, they'd have come earlier. No sorry I don't believe the old 'she was scared and the nurse promised not to tell' theory, because for one, if she had been AN and been 'scared' she never would have said anything, and two, SHE WAS NOT AN so she wouldn't have said it.

My personal view is that the incident either never happened, or happened in 1922.

...[in part]...

I want to make it clear that I do not and have never believed that AA knew anything before she jumped in the canal. I believe she didn't begin her claim until Clara showed her the pics in 1922.

I do not believe anyone preplanned to set her up to pretend to be AN (a la the Anastasia cartoon), what I think is that several people used it to their own advantage and jumped at the opportunity AFTER the idea was already out there (thanks to Clara P)

I will be back with more quotes from the book.

Thea Malinovski did not tell the Nachtausgabe that AA came out in the fall of 1922, she came out a few months after Malinovski started work in July of 1921, which would have been in the fall of 1921.

Her husband, Dr. Chemnitz, also, testified in AA's trial that AA had told him about the incident at the same time, but he took it for rambling from a mentally unbalnced person in an asylum. And remember, this was not just a statement, this was an affidavit in the German court.

So, it just wasn't one nurse, it was two, plus Dr. Chemnitz, who probably had taken notes as doctors due when talking and treating patients.

In autumn of 1922, AA was  at Clara Peuthert's, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

AGRBear
 
 
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 11:03:53 AM
Bear, may I ask why you are still defending the nurse story? I personally do not believe that she came out in 1921, and it was either a mistake by the nurse or she was being manipulated by someone to try to change the date which is why she backdated it after it was in the paper and then blamed the paper. I do wonder why anyone would bother to defend her story unless they were also defending the possibility that AA was AN? Really, why else could it matter? Please explain.

As far as the 'affadavit in German court' there were quite a lot of those, weren't there? I found out from Chat of all people that in Germany a person is not forced to take an oath on the witness stand,(in some trials,this one) it's optional. This IMO makes it far more likely people could get away with being dishonest, or not worrying too much about the real validity of their statement. Again, I would like to know what difference this nurse story could possibly make since she's not AN.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 11:09:08 AM
Bringing this forward since it got buried

Plays

Page 90, Examination of Kobylinsky:

..."Sometimes in the evening the Emperor used to read aloud while everyone listened. Sometimes plays were staged, usually French or English. Tea was served at eight o'clock and a conversation would take place until eleven but never later than twelve o'clock. After that everybody retired...

"Medicines"

Page 288-289

Here we must record a circumstance which was destined to play an important part in the detection of the murders at Ekaterinburg. Before separating, it had been understood between mother and daughters that they would take measures to safeguard the jewels that had been brought with them from Tsarskoe, worth not less than a million gold rubles.

A letter from the maid Demidova in Ekaterinburg gave the necessary indications. The Grand Duchesses were to 'dispose of the "medicines" as had been agreed'. This meant that the jewels had to be secreted into their clothing in such a way as to escape search (Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria had been searched very thoroughly and brutally) For several days, the Grand Duchesses and their trusted servants worked at the task, sewing up the jewels in their bodices, their hats, and even inside their buttons.

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: StevenL on June 08, 2008, 12:01:47 PM
So, it just wasn't one nurse, it was two, plus Dr. Chemnitz, who probably had taken notes as doctors due when talking and treating patients.
In autumn of 1922, AA was  at Clara Peuthert's, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

...Yet this mental patient turned out to be unrelated to the IF after all, so the sundry AA-related "how could she have known...?" questions are actually more akin to the question I recently got from a friend's mother: "How could that fortune teller have known that my husband just died and that I secretly hate my younger sister and that I wanted to be an actress when I was a little girl?"
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 12:04:05 PM
One more thing on the "medicines" - it's also more proof that Bux didn't betray the family, because wasn't part of the story that she told the Bolsheviks where they hid the jewels? But they DIDN'T KNOW! If they had they'd have taken them away! They were still unaware as the bullets bounced off the girls due to jewels being inside the bodices, and never found them until after they were dead and disposing of them. So yet another leak in the sinking ship.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 12:05:35 PM
So, it just wasn't one nurse, it was two, plus Dr. Chemnitz, who probably had taken notes as doctors due when talking and treating patients.
In autumn of 1922, AA was  at Clara Peuthert's, and it would have been impossible for Thea Malinovsky to get any information from her.

...Yet this mental patient turned out to be unrelated to the IF after all, so the sundry AA-related "how could she have known...?" questions are actually more akin to the question I recently got from a friend's mother: "How could that fortune teller have known that my husband just died and that I secretly hate my younger sister and that I wanted to be an actress when I was a little girl?"


In both cases, obviously, somebody told her.

It's terrible, but I have seen stories that tells how some 'psychics' and 'mediums' get their info is by sending a random looking person who works for them  into the crowd or line before the show to strike up conversations with members of the potential audience using their own made up 'sad story' to get others to tell theirs, and then the person goes back and reports what they said and it's used during the program. Tragically, heartbroken people who WANT to believe fall for it.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 08, 2008, 06:57:30 PM
...[in part]...
 I personally do not believe that she came out in 1921, and it was either a mistake by the nurse or she was being manipulated by someone to try to change the date which is why she backdated it after it was in the paper and then blamed the paper. I do wonder why anyone would bother to defend her story unless they were also defending the possibility that AA was AN? Really, why else could it matter? Please explain.

There were two nurses and a doctor who told the German court what they knew about AA when AA was in Dalldorf.  Since the three support the same basic information that AA believed she was GD Anastasia,   I don't understand why Annie continues to deny their testimonies.


Annie continued:
Quote
As far as the 'affadavit in German court' there were quite a lot of those, weren't there? I found out from Chat of all people that in Germany a person is not forced to take an oath on the witness stand,(in some trials,this one) it's optional. This IMO makes it far more likely people could get away with being dishonest, or not worrying too much about the real validity of their statement. Again, I would like to know what difference this nurse story could possibly make since she's not AN.

How does Annie  dismiss the two nurses and the doctor's testimonies?  With other testimony?  No.  Annie tells us that it is Annie's opinion that these three people weren't telling the truth because they didn't have to swear an oath on a bible in court in Hamburg during AA's trial and because they were mistaken about the year.  The married couple explained why they believed it was 1921 and not the year reported in the paper.  I followed this up with the information telling us where AA was in the fall of 1922.  The part Annie tells us about these three  not having to swear an oath is true, however,  Annie forgot to tell you the part that when the judges were unsure of a person, they could stop the testimony at any time and  ask the person to swear and oath. (Example: The judges did stop the testimony of the the Wingender sister about the photograph and the dress, Wingender suddenly claimed to be ill and left the court without giving an oath.  The court then had an expert testify as to why the information Wingender gave was not accurate.  The judges weren't a bunch of stooges.]  Since these three (two nurses and the doctor) were not asked to swear and oath,  the judges must have believed what the two nurses and the doctor were telling was believable.

Remember: I don't care where the truth takes me,  I just enjoy the journey.
 
AGRBear



Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 07:16:19 PM
So, bear, are you telling me that you believe the nurse story? If you do, you must also believe she was AN, because that would be the only way the nurse story could be the way you say.

Quote
Remember: I don't care where the truth takes me,  I just enjoy the journey.

You keep saying that, yet when you get the truth, you refuse to accept it. That must  mean you will never accept any truth that isn't the result you were hoping for.

You don't want to be like these guys, do you? The 'truthseekers'

http://myspace.com/russellhkelley
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 08, 2008, 07:29:40 PM
Speaking of ChatNoir here is one of his posts:
I don't think we can blame Baron Kleist for "inventing" AA. Already in fall of 1921 Fräulein Unbekannt declared to the nurses at Dalldorf that she was indeed the youngest daughter of the Tsar. Nurse Malinovsky remembered that she was very upset, she spoke of ther sisters and the jewels they had sewn into their clothes in Siberia, of the last night in Ekaterinburg, when "a lady-in-waiting ran about with a cushion in her hands, hiding her face behind it and screaming", and of "the leader of the murderers of the Tsar [who] went straight up to her father with his pistol.....mocking him with it and shooting at him".

..[in part]...

And among all those emigrees, which one of them knew the story about AN wearing her father's longjohns under her bathrobe in a play that the children performed in Tobolsk? A fact that was revealed when a draft lifted up the back of her robe and showed her sturdy legs in the Tsar's long underwear. AA told this story many, many years before her English tutor mentioned it in his book in 1975.

Curious and curiouser.

Kind regards
ChatNoir

Does THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS by Wilton and Telberg's Collection talk about the "little cushion" or the "longjohns". 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 08, 2008, 07:45:03 PM
So, bear, are you telling me that you believe the nurse story? If you do, you must also believe she was AN, because that would be the only way the nurse story could be the way you say.

...[in part]...

The nurses told what AA said when she was with them.  AA wanted them to believe she was GD Anastasia.  I believe AA continued to tell people she was AA to the day she died.  Unlike Annie, I have never believed AA was GD Anastasia.

Since AA wasn't GD Anastasia,  let's talk about what Ra-Ra-Rasputin asked us to discuss:

...[in part]...

So, we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna from the DNA results.

But, so many parts of her story were so convincing.  Where did she get her information from? How did she 'know' so many languages? Were people helping her? If so, why? Is her story of how she escaped convincing to anyone, or filled with as many holes as the road to Romania?

Any discussion pertaining to Anna Anderson's story can be discussed here, but please, let's keep this CIVIL and ON TOPIC.

Anna Anderson WAS NOT Anastasia, period.  What we're discussing is the aspects of Anna Anderson's story that remain perplexing to us, and how she may have gained the information that helped to convince so many that she was the real Grand Duchess.  What we DON'T want are arguments about why she was Anastasia, or about how the DNA could have been switched; this thread is simply about Anna Anderson's story and how it can, or cannot be explained.

Let's get discussing!

Rachel
xx

So, back to "little cushions","longjohns" Gilliard,  conspiracy, no conspiracy, and how AA knew  some things which has "perplexed" most of us.

Annie has brought into the discussion THE LAST DAYS OF THE ROMANOVS published in 1920 in the USA which held some information which may have reached AA at some point in time.   It is my opinion that the book could not have reached AA before she jumped into the canal in Feb. 1920.   

Timeline:
One  nurse  testified that AA claimed she was AA while she was at Dalldorf Asylum in 1920. 

Another nurse  testified AA claimed she was AA in 1921.

 A doctor, who did not say the year, but agreed that AA had also told him that she was GD Anastasia and agreed with his wife,  the second nurse,  that she had told him in 1921 that AA had, told her the same, that AA believed she was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 08, 2008, 08:09:57 PM
Bottom line: we know AA wasn't AN,therefore anything she 'knew' had to be relayed to her via others. The only speculation left is who did it, when, how, and why.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: AGRBear on June 09, 2008, 08:50:00 AM
 Annie,  why oh why would you ever ever direct anyone to this web site?!


....russellhkelley

Think I'm going to "toss my cookies"  (=vomit).... 

[Bear rushes to bathroom and will make no farther comment on such dreckishness].




Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 09, 2008, 04:12:54 PM
bear, I don't know if that's in the book or not. I don't know who allegedly verified that 'memory' or even if it's true or not. The only thing we do know for sure is that since AA was not AN and therefore never in Tobolsk she didn't recall those events (even if they did happen) herself, and had to get the info elsewhere. I do hope we can find out where that is. As this book has proven, there was quite a lot of info on the IF out there very early in the 1920s.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 09, 2008, 04:59:04 PM
I think there were some interesting sub topics to be discussed under this thread. We are now many pages into this topic and it seems to have become an Annie versus AGR Bear discussion. I would like to suggest that this topic be broken down into more specific areas if we are in fact going to continue to discuss AA.

Agreed?
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Michael HR on June 13, 2008, 10:55:14 AM
Hello all,

Before I put on my bullet proof jacket I just thought that I would add that as we know Anna Anderson was not Anastasia and that everything about Anna Anderson was in effect a fraud over many decades we will now never know who, when, how and where information was given to Anna Anderson. She may have read items in books, been tutored or just picked up on bits and pieces from other peoples conversations. I view her as one of the most clever con artists of the 20th century even if that con is ID theft alone, I won't go into the money assest argument, although I am un decided if she herself knew this or did actually believe she was AN thus showing some mental problems.

Also we forget that many of us wished, hoped and prayed that someone had survived the cellar of blood that night but of course Anna Anderson did such a lot of damage to others reputations, from what I read here, that it is only now we can sort out the mess and try to restore to those who should have their reputations restored and consider who should perhaps lose theirs now?

She should be considered a fraud, dishonest and malicious in her relentless pursuit of the Imperial family members (and other royal houses) over many decades and I am only happy that she never succeeded in her quest. Although the story of her life after the canal is just fascinating and in it's self would make a great movie.   
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Tania+ on June 13, 2008, 02:49:57 PM
Bear I believe that it was Sokolov who done did in the poor small dog. He was a menace to everyone and a liar to boot.
Michael that' a very handsome jacket you are wearing.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Michael HR on June 13, 2008, 03:29:44 PM
Hi Tania+,

Yes the dog is intresting from what I remember in that he could not have been deceased as long as he should have been in relation to the condition of the corpse. How sad to think he survived the cellar, if he did, only to be killed later for what ever reason.. So very unfair on an innocent animal but when people were being shot by the bucket load I suppose they did not care about one little devoted dog looking for it's master/Mistress.



Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2008, 06:59:56 PM
I am un decided if she herself knew this or did actually believe she was AN thus showing some mental problems.

From all I've seen on her, I think it was both. It does seem like she knew early on she was acting, and that's why she was so afraid of being caught, hiding under the covers and refusing to see some people.There are clues and incidents I've read of that lead me to believe she knew exactly what she was doing and who she really was.  I even think she knew she was pretending at least up until the time the trial started. I do think she did eventually came to believe it due to her mental problems but I'm not sure exactly when that happened, was it in the Black Forest seclusion of the 40's, or later? It does seem like by the time she came to VA and married Manahan in the late 60's that she was so far gone she probably believed it.

Quote
Also we forget that many of us wished, hoped and prayed that someone had survived the cellar of blood that night

Yes, we really do, and if there were a real Anastasia who got away, it would be a happy thing. Sadly that didn't happen.

Quote
but of course Anna Anderson did such a lot of damage to others reputations, from what I read here, that it is only now we can sort out the mess and try to restore to those who should have their reputations restored and consider who should perhaps lose theirs now?

This is one of the things that bothers me about it, she did hurt the reputations of others in order to advance her cause, and now they should be exonerated. I especially feel bad for Olga A., who suffered so many years with people accusing her of betraying her 'niece'- but in the end she was right, because AA wasn't AN. I also feel sorry for Sophie B. being accused of 'betraying' the family when she never did, it was just made up by her supporters to back up AA's path of lies.

Quote
Although the story of her life after the canal is just fascinating and in it's self would make a great movie.   

Yes indeed, I would love to get away from the 'who was she' argument- we know the answer- and go ahead and explore this story from the side that she was FS, how she did it, etc. The story of FS is also very interesting. What luck, to be a poverty stricken, insane loser and luck into being paraded around as a 'princess'! She must have been very relieved she didn't die that night after all, for while she metaphorically killed off FS, she lived on in another life as an actress. How fortunate for her, how sad for the real Anastasia whose poor mutilated body lay in the Siberian mud while this person achieved fame from stealing her identity.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 15, 2008, 12:40:24 PM
I would love to get away from the 'who was she' argument- we know the answer- and go ahead and explore this story from the side that she was FS, how she did it, etc. The story of FS is also very interesting.

Have you read either The City of Shadows (http://www.amazon.com/City-Shadows-Suspense-Ariana-Franklin/dp/B000MGAI1I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1213551430&sr=1-1) or The Pretender?  Although works of fiction, both explore FS' story in interesting ways.
Title: Re: Anna Anderson: The Final Frontier
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 16, 2008, 05:43:12 PM
I think there were some interesting sub topics to be discussed under this thread. We are now many pages into this topic and it seems to have become an Annie versus AGR Bear discussion. I would like to suggest that this topic be broken down into more specific areas if we are in fact going to continue to discuss AA.

Agreed?

Unless there is stated disagreement with the above, I will lock this topic.

Anna Anderson continues to be of interest - but it is now time to break down the remaining questions into new topic areas.

Please do so, or tell me why you think this should drag on for another 56 pages.