Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Their World and Culture => Topic started by: Kim on August 27, 2004, 02:23:56 PM

Title: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2004, 02:23:56 PM
Could someone please make a list of the Romanov men who were alive at the time of the revolution and what their titles were and why? Thanks, if anyone has the time to clear this up for me.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2004, 08:07:43 PM
So if:

Nicholas I - Alexander II - Alexander III - Nicholas II  
                                                         
Nicholas I - Konstantin - KR - Ioann

Nicholas I - Nicholas - Nicholas (Jr)

Nicholas I - Michael - Alexander (Sandro)

So I'm assuming that you are a Grand Duke 2 generations beyond the Tsar but not 3? Is that it?

then why was Vladimir of the same generation still a Grand Duke ???

Alexander II-  Vladimir- Kyril- Vladmir
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: jackie3 on August 27, 2004, 08:23:19 PM
I figure, Vladimir was born in 1917 and by the 1920s (when Vladimir was still a child) his father had set himself as "Tsar-in exile" with the death of Nicholas, Alexis and Michael. So Vladimir was a "grand duke" because his father by that time was the de jure "tsar". Someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2004, 08:27:24 PM
Oh so he changed it himself. I thought it didn't figure with the rest of the cousins, something had to be up. Thank you.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Louise on August 27, 2004, 08:27:27 PM
Correct!! Kim don't get frustrated trying to figure out the connections. It will just take some time to make sense of it all. My suggestion to you is to read as much as you can on the Romanov's and sit for hours like I did and study the dang family tree. Most books should have some family charts. The one in The Camera and the Tsar is good and so is the one in Hessian Tapestry.

It really is fun once you can piece it all together!

Louise
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2004, 08:36:08 PM
Thanks, I will try to find those books! :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Anastasia on March 26, 2005, 07:02:32 PM
I did a search and supposedly this topic has not been done before, but if I'm reposting maybe one of you could direct me to the discussion.

I was wondering if any of you knew what the requisites were for women to be eligible to be a lady-in-waiting to the Empress, and what sort of things were expected of them and where they lived?

Thank you, any information you can give me will be helpful.

-Anastasia
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Charles on March 28, 2005, 08:02:44 AM
Anastasia:

I am in the final stages of a translation of At the Court of Two Emperors by AF Tiutcheva, who was a lady-in-waiting to Empress Maria Aleksandrovna, from the time that she was Tsesarevna and in the first few years of A II's reign, she was then governess for GD Maria Aleksandrovna and Sergei Aleksandrovich.

Family connections were a large part of who was chosen as a lady-in-waiting.  In the case of Tiutcheva, it was certainly her father's connections that helped her with this appointment, but surprisingly, MA chose her over her more attractive sisters, precisely because she was less attractive, older, and well-educated (she went to school in Munich).

I will let you know once I have completed this and found a suitable publisher.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Anastasia on March 29, 2005, 05:00:34 AM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on May 06, 2005, 08:28:40 AM
Pls do not hesitate to explaine kindly the English equivalent of the following ranks:
1. Stats-Dama
2. Kamer-Freilina'
3. Hofmeisterina
4. Freilina

Thank you very much in advance.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on May 06, 2005, 08:55:49 AM
Thanks and sorry for disturb.
I have found it at the main site in the Document of the Funeral of Alexandr III.

Thank you very much for this documents, but I found one intresting fact : the order of the ranks have changed in 1904 in comparison with 1894.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Macedonsky on May 10, 2005, 05:08:24 AM
Quote
I found one intresting fact : the order of the ranks have changed in 1904 in comparison with 1894.

What exactly was changed? Who was buried in 1904?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Macedonsky on May 10, 2005, 05:55:29 AM
n
Quote
Pls do not hesitate to explaine kindly the English equivalent of the following ranks:
1. Stats-Dama
2. Kamer-Freilina'
3. Hofmeisterina
4. Freilina

The correct precedence is another. And it is not easy to translate originally German ranks.

Married:
1.Oberhofmeisterin - lady high steward of the court (senior household mistress)
2.Hofmeisterin - chief lady-in-waiting (household mistress)
3.Stats-Dame - lady-in-waiting
Unmarried:
4.Kammerfräulein - chambermaid
5.Fräulein - maid of honour

See also http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/iedu_En/zd/external/hotwords/hotword32151.html
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on May 10, 2005, 11:18:28 AM
You can actually find the English equivalents in my translation:

1.Oberhofmeisterin - Grand Mistress of the Court
2.Hofmeisterin - Mistress of the Court
3.Stats-Dame - lady-in-waiting  
Unmarried:
4.Kammerfräulein - Portrait Maiden of Honor
5.Fräulein - maiden of honor
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on May 10, 2005, 01:20:24 PM
Thank you Macedonsky and FA very much.
I understood you perfectly.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 27, 2005, 07:28:07 AM
Hello,

I hope this isn't a stupid question, but what the are titles for all Russian Royals and Nobles (highest to lowest)


My guess:

Emperor (Tsar)
Dowager Empress
Empress (Tsarina)
Tsarevitch
Tsarevna
Grand Duke
Grand Duchess
Prince
Princess
Count
Countess

whats next?

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Marc on May 27, 2005, 07:46:11 AM
Well,I think then Baron,Baroness and then,maybe,boyar,boyaress...(phrase for the members of Russian ancient noble families without the tetles)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: lostfan on May 27, 2005, 08:17:07 PM
Doesn't the Empress come before the Dowager Empress? I remember reading about Marie Feodorovna complaining about having to give up seniority to someone as young as Alix.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: nerdycool on May 28, 2005, 06:24:54 PM
No, the Empress would come after the Dowager Empress, as strange as that sounds. There've been many account of occasions where Nicholas escorted his mother and Alexandra was escorted by Michael... all because of rank.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Robert_Hall on May 28, 2005, 08:10:44 PM
It is not all that strange and is pretty common in court ranking. The idea being that the mother [dowager] gave birth to an emperor, a wife had to marry one. This is particularly relevant in Christian monarchies
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2005, 05:37:23 AM
Quote
maybe,boyar,boyaress...(phrase for the members of Russian ancient noble families without the tetles)


Boyarin(a) are not modern noble titles. These titles which came into existence during the 9th century were abolished by Peter the Great during the 17th century.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: sydguy71 on May 29, 2005, 06:00:56 AM
Is there a difference between the title, Count or Baron? What one was higher ranking in precedence, if there wasa difference.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2005, 06:41:13 AM
Quote
Emperor (Tsar)


The title of Emperor has been in existence since Peter the Great abolished the appellation "Tsar".

Unfortunately many insist using Tsar incorrectly when refering to the Imperial Russian heads of State after and including Peter I.

Nikolai II was the Imperator (Emperor) and Samoderjetz (Autocrat) of all the Russias.

His consort was the Tsaritsa or more officially she was refered to as the Imperatritsa

The Emperor's son who was in line to the throne was refered to as the Naslednik Tsesarevich  (Heir apparent). If he married before suceeding his father, the wife was refered to as a Tsesarevna.

A son of an Emperor who was not an heir was titled as a Velikii Knyaz' (Grand Duke), while a daughter was called a Velikaya Knyaginya (Grand Duchess).

All the above titles apply to the immediate Imperial Family.

The Dowager Empress was refered to as:

Ee Vdovstvyushaya Imperatritsa and she formally preceeded the Emperor's consort.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2005, 07:01:21 AM
Quote
Is there a difference between the title, Count or Baron? What one was higher ranking in precedence, if there wasa difference.


The title of Baron was usually given to persons who were industrialists or bankers of non-Russian origin. They were the least common of all titles used in Russia. Barons were the lowest ranked nobility.

Grafi (Counts) were as plentiful as were ordinary Princes. Grafi received their titles for service to the State, usually as a reward for exemplary military service. That title could be be passed down the line through the male line to the son and grandson.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: sydguy71 on May 29, 2005, 06:45:13 PM
Thanks Belochka. Very interesting. I always assumed Barons and Counts were the same.
Cheers
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on May 29, 2005, 10:50:07 PM
You're welcome sydguy71! ;)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: marina on July 15, 2005, 11:06:13 AM
I would like to know how, in the family, they call each other with "ty" or "vy" (in russian)? If the translations are right, it must be "ty" but...   ???
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on July 26, 2005, 03:34:48 PM
I don't know if this is the right place to put this, but here goes.

As a king or queen, anyone under you would call you "Your Majesty" or "Sire" (for a king at least).  This also goes for Emperors/Empresses/Tsars, ect., ect.  For princesses/princes/GD's, ect. they would be called "Your Highness".  And for dukes and duchesses they would be "Your Grace".  

My question is what would counts, viscounts, barons, ect. be called since every rank is called by a different title?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 26, 2005, 04:46:26 PM
I do not know if this is the coreect place for this question either but as there is no protocol topic, this would seem to be as good a place as could a few others.

Your question is one that is much more complicated than you may know. I think I shall break it up into three sections in order to present it in a logical manner. What you refer to as titles are actually called styles, as in styles of address. What you call ranks are just that but a narrower scope of description would be titles.

The next problem to addressing your question is if one should simply give you the forms of address in Russian or to try to translate them into English as accurately as possible to their true spirit and meaning in the Russian language. Over the centuries, the Russian styles when translated into other languages have been codified so to speak. These long accepted translations have not been totally accurate, so please put away what you think you already know about Russian titles and styles when reading my answer.

Members of the Imperial Family of Russia

His Imperial Majesty the Sovereign Emperor

Her Imperial Majesty the Empress

His Imperial Highness the Grand Duke
Sons of the Emperor and grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess
Daughters of the Emperor and grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

His Highness the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line and the eldest son of each of the great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood
Great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.

His Serenity the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Serenity the Princess of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.


Members of the Nobility of the Russian Empire with Native Titles

Serene Prince- His/Her Serenity the Prince/ss

Illustrious Prince- His/Her Illustriousness the Prince/ss

Count - His/Her Illustriousness the Count/ess

Baron - His/Her Excellency the Baron/ess

Members of the Nobility of the Russian Empire with foreign titles that do not corresspond with Russian titles

Duke (Gerzog in Russian)- Addressed as: His/Her Highness the Duke/Duchess or His/Her Serenity the Duke/Duchess depending upon their royal or serene status.

Marquis (Markvis in Russian)- ? - May be one if any use of the title with a naturalised noble.

Vicount (Vikont in Russian)- ?- May be one if any use of the title with a naturalised noble.


DAP
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on July 26, 2005, 05:08:42 PM
Thank you David, that really helped.  I know I didn't get the title/rank/style thing right, so thanks for clearing that up too.  Who would be called "Your Grace" then?  Or is there such style?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 26, 2005, 05:56:19 PM
In the United Kingdom a non-royal duke is addressed as "Your Grace".

DAP
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2005, 05:59:01 PM
In Imperial Russia, The Tsar and his immediate family (NAOTMAA) would be "Your Imperial Highness".  All other Grand Dukes/Duchesses would be "Your Highness".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 26, 2005, 06:51:58 PM
Quote
In Imperial Russia, The Tsar and his immediate family (NAOTMAA) would be "Your Imperial Highness".  All other Grand Dukes/Duchesses would be "Your Highness".


The examples that I posted above were for use in the most formal of occaissions such as, petitions, written invitations, diplomatic corresspondence, etc. The styles of address recommended by the Forum Administrator would only have been used in prolonged conversation of a less formal nature. Someday, I may post a chart of the styles of address for Imperial Family Members: written and conversational, diplomatic, formal and informal, speaking about/of, speaking to, ec, ec, ec,

DAP




Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on July 26, 2005, 08:32:35 PM
That sounds very interesting, David!  I hope you can. :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on July 27, 2005, 06:32:10 AM
David's table is excellent. However, a few remarks:

There was no such title - "Illustrious Prince/ss", just "Prince/ss = knyaz'/knyaginya/knyazhna".

Barons were not addressed "His Excellency", but "Mr. Baron". The former style was applied only to bearers of the 4th and 3rd service ranks and to holders of some offices who had lower ranks (e.g. university professors) or no ranks at all (e.g. the Lady Chief of the Institute for Noble Maidens).  

To Forum Admin:
The emperor and the empress were never addressed "Your Imperial Highness", at least in Russian. Only "Your Imperial Majesty = Vashe Imperatorskoye Velichestvo" or, in a less formal situation, "Your Majesty".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on July 27, 2005, 08:57:39 AM
Ah, thanks Mike, the error was in my translation. I know the Russian but mis translated.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 27, 2005, 10:12:09 AM
Quote
David's table is excellent. However, a few remarks:

There was no such title - "Illustrious Prince/ss", just "Prince/ss = knyaz'/knyaginya/knyazhna".

Barons were not addressed "His Excellency", but "Mr. Baron". The former style was applied only to bearers of the 4th and 3rd service ranks and to holders of some offices who had lower ranks (e.g. university professors) or no ranks at all (e.g. the Lady Chief of the Institute for Noble Maidens).  


Dear Mike,

Yes, there was no title called "Illustrious Prince", it was just my way of differentiating the title of Prince that was addressed with the style of "Illustrious". As you know, there are many variations of the rank of Prince in the Russian hierarchy.

Thank you for the information on the style of a Russian Baron. I could not find the proper form of address in my books but I recalled seeing a Baron addressed as "Excellency". Maybe this usage was in a foreign context such as addressing a Russian Diplomat who held the title of baron.

DAP
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on July 27, 2005, 10:37:35 AM
Quote
I recalled seeing a Baron addressed as "Excellency". Maybe this usage was in a foreign context such as addressing a Russian Diplomat who held the title of baron.

Probably, but then he couldn't be an ambassador, only envoy, charge d'affairs or councillor. A Russian ambassador (if not a prince or a count) would have always been addressed "High Excellency",  because all ambassadors enjoyed the 2nd service rank (deystvitelnyi taynyi sovetnik).
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on July 27, 2005, 11:26:10 PM
What would an earl's style be?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 27, 2005, 11:56:09 PM
The title Earl is peculiar to Great Britain and Ireland. It corresponds to the European title of Count. The style of address for an Earl is The Right Honourable.

DAP
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on July 28, 2005, 09:43:48 AM
Thanks!  I'm interested in all of the titles, that's why I asked.  I never knew it varied so much from country to country.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 10:46:16 AM
Quote
Ah, thanks Mike, the error was in my translation. I know the Russian but mis translated.


Michael,

So help me discuss the titles in Russian because perhaps the English loose me :

When the Emperor entered a room :

Evo Avgusteishee Imperatorcheskoy Velitzchvo.

For A.A.

Eo Avgusteishee Imperatorchkoy Velitzchvo.

Now for a Velikii Khyaz, not of the Reigning Family :

Evo Visohestvo :

Here is where you loose me in English:

For a count (graf), are you saying : Vashe Cvetlost?

Again, all of this depended on the the totality of the titles, Graf Sheremetiv might also be Kniaz Mechersky, in which case he would have be introduced as Evo Visotcho.

I have to check the rules of the Nobility Association on this one...my memory fails me here.


Thanks,

Alexandre Alexandrovtich
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 03, 2005, 11:09:09 AM
Quote
Evo Avgusteishee Imperatorcheskoy Velitzchvo.

I've never heard that the form "Avgusteishee" was used in a style.

Princes [non-imperial, knyaz'] and counts [graf] were addressed using the same style "Vashe Siyatel'stvo". Serene princes [svetleyshiy knyaz']: "Vasha Svetlost'".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 03, 2005, 12:50:51 PM
I cannot find Evo Avgusteishee Imperatorcheskoy Velitzchvo as an official form of address but I cannot imagine that anyone, especially the Emperor, would object. One could easily imagine a foreign diplomat adding such an extra touch during an Imperial Audience.

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 03, 2005, 01:55:15 PM
I think that the emperor would be profoundly astonished should a foreign ambassador publicly address him in Russian - or in any language other than French. The only possible exception could be made for a papal nuncio, using Latin.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 03, 2005, 02:31:29 PM
I do not think that he would be astonished to hear Russian.  Anyway Russian was an official language of Russian Empire from the times of Nicholas I.
I suppose that a lot of diplomats studied russian.

But they use french for international conversations for mostly of times.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 02:31:58 PM
Quote
I've never heard that the form "Avgusteishee" was used in a style.

Princes [non-imperial, knyaz'] and counts [graf] were addressed using the same style "Vashe Siyatel'stvo". Serene princes [svetleyshiy knyaz']: "Vasha Svetlost'".



Thank you.  Indeed the "vashe siytalstvo" is correct and the "vasha svetlost" is correct.  Thank you.

As for "agusteeshee", it was used.

And no, not all the announcements were in French, Mike.  For example, upon reception at the Duma, the announcements were in Russian.  Had They been announced in French at the Duma, that would have caused a "furore".  And in State Proclamations they were surely not announced in French.

As for the Papal Nuncio, I was not aware that Imperial Russia maintained separate relations with the Vatican prior to revolution, considering that the Vatican itself was only formalized in 1929 with the Lanterne Treaty.  Prior to that there were the Papal States and a United Italy.

But that is easy enough to determine.  And it is a good question.

One other point for our readers, however,  Nicolas II was definitely :

"We, Nicholas II, etc., etc."

"Mbi, Nikolai, II," and in formal documents "padumaem i reshaem" which came came after his long list of titles (which ended with i prochee i tak dalia")

Thank you for your help.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 02:40:59 PM
Quote
I do not think that he would be astonished to hear Russian.  Anyway Russian was an official language of Russian Empire from the times of Nicholas I.
I suppose that a lot of diplomats studied russian.

But they use french for international conversations for mostly of times.


Dear Mike, Dear Hikaru,

I knew that this jolted family memories and here is what I remember from the grandparents.

The very, very, very old but worldy Count Beckendorff at Tsarkoe Selo was responsible for announcing whomever was going to visit the Emperor and Empress and vice-versa when they were being received.  Depending upon the personnage, it was done in either French (as Mike pointed out), or in Russian (as Hikaru mentioned).  There was change, however, insofar as from the beginning of the war on, the presentations were made in Russian unless it was a Foreign Ambassador with no command of Russian at all.

We also know this from other sources because when the February Revolution occured, Beckendorff struggled immensely as to how to announce the visitors to the (deposed) Emperor and Empress.  He was not at all familiar with the Gospodin so-and-so and Gozpozha such-and-such which replaced all of the titles. For a while, everyone became "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" but that was quickly dispensed with.

And as I said with visitors from the Duma, and there were several prior to the Revolution, it was in Russian, not French.

Mike, Hikaru, your thoughts, here please.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: anna on August 03, 2005, 03:06:02 PM
For the ones who doesn't speak or understand Russian,
what does "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" mean?

Anna
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 03, 2005, 03:21:09 PM
There were such kind of the ifm list, which was provided to the Emperor or Family- "Svedeniya ob inostrannykh poslannikakh predstavlyayuschikhsha..for example 20.08.1902"
In which it was written if the Ambassador  and Consuls can speak Russian. Than it was written if they can speak English. About French it was not written , only in case of Korea, Japan, Tailand and China.
So maybe, if the Ambassador or Consul could speak Russian - they firstly were obliged to speak in Russian?
( I  saw such list of 1902 year. For example, in 1902 Consuls of Romania, of Netherlands, Serbia could speak russian. I saw only list of Consuls - head of missions, not Ambassadors)

Your thoughts, please
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 03:40:49 PM
Quote
There were such kind of the ifm list, which was provided to the Emperor or Family- "Svedeniya ob inostrannykh poslannikakh predstavlyayuschikhsha..for example 20.08.1902"
In which it was written if the Ambassador  and Consuls can speak Russian. Than it was written if they can speak English. About French it was not written , only in case of Korea, Japan, Tailand and China.
So maybe, if the Ambassador or Consul could speak Russian - they firstly were obliged to speak in Russian?
( I  saw such list of 1902 year. For example, in 1902 Consuls of Romania, of Netherlands, Serbia could speak russian. I saw only list of Consuls - head of missions, not Ambassadors)

Your thoughts, please


Hikarushka,

Again, thank you so much.

This concurs with the memories of my grandfather and grandmother as they were passed along to me and which I had written not even knowing about this book.

Yes, "les entrees" at Tsarskoe Selo under Benckendorff and those in his service were made in Russian iif the personnage spoke Russian, and I am quite sure that I remember in French if the personnage spoke French.

But there is also something heartwarming in that for the Americans and the British, they were made in English, and as a matter of fact, the Empress felt quite comfortable in their presence.  The conversation was much more relaxed and she suffered far less from evident anxiety....perhaps it evoked memories of her happy stays in England...and it also allowed her to communicate freely because English was the ONE language that the servants, the police, the staff and even Vruybova did not understand (which is why many of her "Fraulayni" were chosen for their command of English, once they had been vetted on trust levels).  This was the one Alexandra Feodorovna that few persons saw...and I should say that if you were a Minister from an English-speaking country, and if you were halfway civilized, your chances of being invited to stay for tea or dinner ... were about 100%.  They were the only audiences that ran twice as long as expected and they were generally pleasurable....except Buchanan at the very end.

BTW, Hikarushka, might you be so kind as to answer Anna's question about the translation of "vashe peredizodiltvso"?  I am not quite sure how to render this in English.

Agromnoe vam cpacibo i bolhoi privet iz Shanghhai,


Alexander Alexandrovitch P.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 03, 2005, 03:45:22 PM
Quote
We also know this from other sources because when the February Revolution occured, Beckendorff struggled immensely as to how to announce the visitors to the (deposed) Emperor and Empress.  He was not at all familiar with the Gospodin so-and-so and Gozpozha such-and-such which replaced all of the titles. For a while, everyone became "Vashe Peredizoditilsva" but that was quickly dispensed with.



Dear Alex,

Does your transliteration of the style Vashe Peredizoditilsva mean Your Excellency? If so, I would have written this phrase as Vashe Prevoshoditelstva. It is unfortunte that this forum will not support cyrillic characters, as it would eliminate confusion in transliterating Russian based upon one's native language.


David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 03, 2005, 04:07:03 PM
Yes , I think that it is Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo.
(Or maybe he just said Vashe PRejkjkjkjkjvo - just like abrakadabra in order to avoid any troubles?)

I have one question to the Alex and everybody: did Benkendorf stayed near the door of the Audience room or he went to the corridor to meet the guest and began to make " entree " in the corridor?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 03, 2005, 04:17:14 PM
I think that Prevoskhoditelystvo came from the verb
"prevoskhodity" which means " to be better than others" or "to be over others" or " to be upper than others"
According to the dictionary it means " excel" or "surpass".

this verb consists of two parts :
"pre" -   over

"voskhodity" - to rise, to go up, to climb

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 04:18:00 PM
Hikaru,

There were two kind of audiences that were accorded :

les audiences discretes and

les audiences formelles (solonelles)

Each had its own set of rules.  But now it is 05h00 in the morning here in Shanghai and I need to get some rest.  I will continue tomorrow.

With kind regards,

Alexander Alexandrovitch.

P.S.  How do you translate into English the Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo particularly in relation to its old Slavonic origins :

prevo(s)

khoditl from hodit

the "stvo" is standard enough not to represent a problem...but

Hikarushka, does really translate as Your Excellency?

I would say that a more literal might be "the honorable person first-called person"

But Hikarushka, your help here, please, and David.

I know the word in Russian and the Slavonic etymology I just can't find a comfortable English rendering.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 03, 2005, 04:27:26 PM
I think that in order to translate right , we have to
decide  - what was earlier
French " Votre Excellence " or Russian " Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo'

Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was kalyka ( direct translation) from french during Peter or Elizaveth time?

Or Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was not was not the translation of Votre Excellence, Maybe it was Vashe siyatelystvo?

Let's think about it tomorrow.

Spokoynoy nochi vsem , do zavtra
Have a good night , bye-
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: anna on August 03, 2005, 05:08:37 PM
Thank you guys, for making such big efforts to find the right translation.
His or Your Excellency sounds reasonable I think, maybe it's not exact but I got the impression.

Thanks and goodnight.

Anna
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 04, 2005, 01:04:15 AM
Let's put a little order to the language issue.

French was not an official language at the Russian court or elsewhere in Russia. However, it  was a universally accepted language of diplomacy and international relations. According to the Russian diplomatic protocol in the XIX - early XX c.c., ambassadors used French when presenting their credentials to the emperor and on other formal occasions - even if they were able of speaking Russian, or if there was another common language like English or German. It was up to an august person to switch to another language, which was considered a special grace and as such was always reported by a diplomat to his government.

Of course many foreign diplomats knew Russian sufficiently well, but I cannot recall reading about an ambassador fluent enough to maintain a conversation without the risk of embarrassment. And only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the emperor and the empress.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 01:32:02 AM
Quote
Let's put a little order to the language issue.

French was not an official language at the Russian court or elsewhere in Russia. However, it  was a universally accepted language of diplomacy and international relations. According to the Russian diplomatic protocol in the XIX - early XX c.c., ambassadors used French when presenting their credentials to the emperor and on other formal occasions - even if they were able of speaking Russian, or if there was another common language like English or German. It was up to an august person to switch to another language, which was considered a special grace and as such was always reported by a diplomat to his government.

Of course many foreign diplomats knew Russian sufficiently well, but I cannot recall reading about an ambassador fluent enough to maintain a conversation without the risk of embarrassment. And only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the emperor and the empress.


Mike, please provide your sources for these assertions.

And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.  Are you aware of the difference between the morning receptions and the afternoon receptions?  Who would have been received in the morning  and who would have been received in the afternoon?  And who would have been received for tea?  A "Court Circular" was drawn up and regularly kept of those received.

I will now research the question, since I cannot be trusted on oral history, as to whether French was the "official" language of the Court.  It comes to mind that it may NOT have been the "official", that is legally stipulated de jure language of the Court, but nonetheless, it was the effective de facto language of the Court.  Letters of credence, to which you refer, were regularly presented in  the major non-Germanic Courts until the begining of the Second World War.

Actually, your reference to "special grace" is quite metaphorically beautiful but Alexandra regularly conducted her "entretiens" in English, de facto and de jure.  It was on the rare occasion that she would conduct them otherwise.

Now let me come back to you on the question of the Official Language of the Court...

Thank you for your insightful comments, even though I must politely agree to disagree.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 01:40:21 AM
Quote
Or Maybe Vashe Prevoskhoditelystvo was not was not the translation of Votre Excellence, Maybe it was Vashe siyatelystvo?


Vashe Prevoskhoditel'stvo translates to: Your Superiority

This title belonged to Ranks III - IV
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 02:02:27 AM
Or Top Manager - in a modern verbalia?  :D
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 02:11:08 AM
Quote
Or Top Manager - in a modern verbalia?  :D


Not quite!

There was the higher Rank I - II to consider.

They were refered by: Vashe Visokoprevoskhoditel'stvo = Your High Superiority
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 02:12:25 AM
Quote

Vashe Prevoskhoditel'stvo translates to: Your Superiority

This title belonged to Ranks III - IV


Belochka, Hikarushka,

Can you help me please as I am abroad and do not have access to this Ukaze :

By Ukaze of Paul I, the French language was officialy established as the language of the Russian Imperial Court and all Court documents, that were not for pure domestic purposes alone, were to be established in these two languages.

Can you please help me find a reference to this Ukaze?  Or the Ukaze itself.  It is well quite known that Paul I was a strong francophile.

I am sure, very politely, that Mike may be not correct in his assertion that French was never officially established as the Court Language.

Thank you for your translation.

Can we know consider the Slavonic origins of the word, etymologically speaking, instead of a direct translation?

Thanks to all.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 02:37:26 AM
The term derives from Voshodyashii = ascending


Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 02:41:58 AM
Quote

Can you help me please as I am abroad and do not have access to this Ukaze :

By Ukaze of Paul I, the French language was officialy established as the language of the Russian Imperial Court and all Court documents, that were not for pure domestic purposes alone, were to be established in these two languages.

Can you please help me find a reference to this Ukaze?  Or the Ukaze itself.


Hi AlexP,

I shall have to refer to my personal library which may take some time to sift through. I am sure I have something of interest to you.  :)


Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 02:59:46 AM
Quote

Hi AlexP,

I shall have to refer to my personal library which may take some time to sift through. I am sure I have something of interest to you.  :)




Belochka,

Thank you on two counts.

First for the etymological origins of the word -- I do not have my Church Slavonic dictionary here.

With your kind help in mind, I would you and David and Hikarushka if this title really does equate to "Your Excellency"?  I am not sure.

I am not a scholar of Latin and we need to learn what the Latin origins of excellency are :  I am aware of the "ex" "out of" but I am not sure of the "celle", "cellos", is from the "caelus", sky?  But I am not a Latin scholar again and seek help.

Thank you for your assistance with the Ukaze of Paul 1.  I have the date, if you need it.

Regards from Shanghai,

Alexander Alexandrovitch

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 04:15:35 AM
Quote
Thank you for your assistance with the Ukaze of Paul 1.  I have the date, if you need it.


Hi AlexP,

Thanks, but the date of the Ukaz is not a problem.

With regard to Latin definitions, my Latin dictionary states that caelum = heavens, the air

However the term celsum = elevated or haughty.

Hence the English term of "Excellency" seems quite appropriate.

Trust this helps! :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 04:20:52 AM
According to Lomonosov,
the verb "prevoskhodity" came from " khodity " -  to go
(Alex, you are right ( as usual :D))

As for latin , maybe  the verb  "transcendere" is the equivalent.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 04:47:42 AM
Certainly khodit = to go; but in this instance the movement must be directed somewhere, and in the example we have been discussing it is "upwards". :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 06:55:15 AM
Quote
Certainly khodit = to go; but in this instance the movement must be directed somewhere, and in the example we have been discussing it is "upwards". :)


Hikarushka, Belochka,

Thank you both.

So now we can compare the two terms :

the Russian terms meaning "the person who goes out and up" ;

and the English term "the person who falls out of the sky with a haughty air".

I am just making some humor.

But I think that I would rather choose the Russian meaning.  It is must more .... upwardly mobile ... ha..ha..ha..

Thanks all.

Now the serious title :  When this title first used in Imperial Russia?  Before Peter the Great?  At the time of Catherine the Great?  During the first part of the 19th Century?

Many thanks.

A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 04, 2005, 07:39:03 AM
Quote
And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.  

It's quite obvious from the context of my post that we were talking about diplomats, and not all the people admitted to the court.

A single documented reference to some foreign diplomat (not a head of mission,  permanent or acting) ever engaged in a conversation with a Russian emperor from Alexander II to Nicholas II would convince me that my assertion was not completely correct. And even then "blatant" seems to me a bit too strong choice of words.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 04, 2005, 08:03:35 AM
Quote
When this title first used in Imperial Russia?  Before Peter the Great?  At the time of Catherine the Great?  During the first part of the 19th Century?

Many thanks.

A.A.


The titles followed after Peter I devised the Tabel' o Rangah (Table of Ranks) 24 January 1722.

His intention was to consolidate the Russian nobility. This mechanism also served to strengthen his autocratic rule.

It was claimed that during Paul I's reign "everything depended on rank ..." [Ref: Murashev, p 62]
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 08:20:51 AM
Quote
It's quite obvious from the context of my post that we were talking about diplomats, and not all the people admitted to the court.

A single documented reference to some foreign diplomat (not a head of mission,  permanent or acting) ever engaged in a conversation with a Russian emperor from Alexander II to Nicholas II would convince me that my assertion was not completely correct. And even then "blatant" seems to me a bit too strong choice of words.



Mihkail,

You are misquoting.  Please reread my postings.  Your postings are very informative but I always do not agree with them.

The "blatant" was referring to your statement that French was not the language of the Court.

First, we engaged a discussion as to whether or not French was the de jure or the de facto language of the Court.

Then a friend of mine in Moscow at the Moscow Institute of International Relations suggested that French had been made the language of the Court by an Ukaze rendered by Paul I in the very early part of his very short reign and my friend has provided me with the date on which he believes the Ukaze was rendered.

As I wish to contest your point, since based on family memories I can assure you that French was used at the Court in most cases equal to or greater than Russian by the "dvoriatsvo", the Dowager Empress and her suite, the Emperor to a certain degree, and by the Empress hardly at all, I have asked others in Russia to locate this Ukaze and then I will publish it here to dispute your point.

You referred to the Apostolic Nuncio in one of your writings and I wrote back saying that I was unaware that Imperial Russia had maintained relations with the Holy See.  I am awaiting your further comments on that issue.  For me, it would be interesting to know since one family member was also Ambassador to Rome before the Revolution and this subject never surfaced.  This point can also be checked in the 1914 Baedeker which lists all of the Missions in St. Petersburg.

Belochka or Hirakushka, can you help me here?  Do either of you have a listing of the accredited diplomatic missions in St. Petersburg, 1914?  Are you either of you aware of whether or not the Holy See had separate diplomatic relations with the Imperial Russian Court as Mike indirectly alludes to?

Additionally, you wrote that "only ambassadors enjoyed the privilege of regularly speaking with the Emperor and the Empress" and I strongly disputed that point, and asked you to comment on the Receiving Schedule for a given day, taking into account the Court Circular, the discussion of which will show one or the other received many, many people in Tsarkoe Selo, and the Empress in particular, which is a credit that is often denied her.


I asked you, and I ask again, and I ask Hikarushka, and Belochka in your opinions who would have been received in the morning, who would have been received in the afternoon and who would have been received at tea?

I am quite not honestly not trolling, I will share my personal knowledge once I learn what others think.  We will compare oral history to written history, it is only fair.

All of this is very interesting.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 09:25:25 AM
In the morning, he Nicholas had usual 3 raports, plus he could meet some russians on the case.
He usually met with foreigners after lunch (zavtrak)
He met them at about 4 o'clock .


Then at tea and further he met only close things.

As far as I understand.
Pls correct.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 09:35:06 AM
Quote
In the morning, he Nicholas had usual 3 raports, plus he could meet some russians on the case.
He usually met with foreigners after lunch (zavtrak)
He met them at about 4 o'clock .


Then at tea and further he met only close things.

As far as I understand.
Pls correct.



No corrections needed.

Thank you for the kind answer.

Regarding diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Imperial Russia, they didn't exist, I can confirm that, they would not have existed, never, ever, ever, and they barely even exist now between the Russian Republic and the Holy See.

So the reference by Mike to the Apostolic Nuncio leaves me a bit lost.

Regards from Shanghai,

A.A.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 09:36:30 AM
Pls see 14 o'clock not 4 in the previous message

As for the Name of Italian Ambassador,
In 1900 year it  was Mr. Marra de Lavriano - General -leutenant . The address of the Italian Ambassy was Moyka 86. Consulate was located on B. Morskaya 48
There were the following ambassies and Diplomatic missions in 1900 at St.-Petersburg:
Austro-Hungary
Argentina
Bawaria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Brazilia
Great Britain
Germany
Greece
Denmark
Spain
Italy
China
Mexica
Monako
Netherlands
Persia
Peru
Portugalia
Romania
Serbia
Shiam
USA
Turkey
France
Sweden and Norway
Swiss
Japan
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 09:39:46 AM
As for Baedecker of 1914, he refers only to 2  Embassies: Great Britain and United States of America
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 09:50:19 AM
I have the text of tseremonial of reception of foreigh Ambassadors etc. of 1827.
Do somebody know , was it changed later?
Or it was without the changes.

No any references about the language in the text.
Maybe in 1827 , it was french, and no cfm was needed?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 04, 2005, 10:00:58 AM
Quote
You are misquoting.  ... The "blatant" was referring to your statement that French was not the language of the Court.

No, I was quoting you exactly:
Quote
And frankly, no, the ambassadors were not those who only regularly spoke with the Emperor and Empress.  This assertion is blantantly incorrect.

So you were referring to those who regularly spoke with the emperor, and not to whether French was an official court language (which it was not since Nicholas I).

Quote
You referred to the Apostolic Nuncio in one of your writings and I wrote back saying that I was unaware that Imperial Russia had maintained relations with the Holy See.  I am awaiting your further comments on that issue.  

Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic relations with the Holy See since 1884 till the end in 1917. Alexander Izvol'sky was the first Russian minister-resident at the court of Leo XIII. He was later replaced by Alexander Nelidov. While there was no permanent nunciature in Petersburg after 1804, its possibility was periodically discussed, and in 1897 Leo XIII even chose Monsignor Tarnassi for this post.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 10:28:08 AM
Quote
No, I was quoting you exactly:
So you were referring to those who regularly spoke with the emperor, and not to whether French was an official court language (which it was not since Nicholas I).

Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic relations with the Holy See since 1884 till the end in 1917. Alexander Izvol'sky was the first Russian minister-resident at the court of Leo XIII. He was later replaced by Alexander Nelidov. While there was no permanent nunciature in Petersburg after 1804, its possibility was periodically discussed, and in 1897 Leo XIII even chose Monsignor Tarnassi for this post.


Michael,

I am sorry but I  have asked my friend in Moscow at MGIMO to check this in detail.  It is his understanding, and my understanding, that the Russian Minister to the Kingdom of Italy was also accredited, which is different than assigned or attached, to the Holy See and that were not separate ambassadorial staffings for the two.  Perhaps you might have meant that Imperial Russia maintained diplomatic representation in Rome to the Kingdom of Italy, with the Imperial Russian Ambassador also accredited to the Holy See.  Those are two very big diplomatic differences.

You have confirmed what I have said : that there was no Nunciature in Petersburg, nor would there have been.  Pobedenestov, in his Synodal Capacity, nor Protopopov, would have ever allowed that.  Baedeker 1914 also provides no listing of an Apostolic Nunciature.  Thus, your comments on the Emperor speaking French to the Apostolic Nuncio are perhaps moot.  Addtionally, the intellectual battles between the slavophiles and the occidentalists were also raging strongly at this point, and in most quarters, the slavophiles were in full control, except of course in terms of the high "dvoriantvo".

Thank you for the information about Monsignor Tarnassi.  While the Pope may have contemplated his nomination, it still would have been subjected to the approval of the Foreign Minister, and in all reality, the Emperor, and this would have not happened.  The presence of an Apostolic Nuncio would have only served to enflame the Polish question and that is one thing no one, but one wished in Petersburg.

Initially you wrote that French had been never the Official Language of the Court, a fact which I vigorously disputed, and now you have qualified that with "not since 1801", presumably you mean when Alexander I purportedly overturned the Ukasze of Paul I.  That does not remove the de jure issue of French as the court language by any means.  But in 1801 the Russian language was established as a Court language, I am not sure it was established as "the" unique Court language.

Among other pieces that easily prove this, I draw your attention to the Court Funeral Notice of Alexander III on this very site.

With all of the very best from Shanghai, and I hope things are going well in Israel, while praying for the peace of the entire world,

Alexander Alexandrovitch P.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 10:32:48 AM
Quote
I have the text of tseremonial of reception of foreigh Ambassadors etc. of 1827.
Do somebody know , was it changed later?
Or it was without the changes.

No any references about the language in the text.
Maybe in 1827 , it was french, and no cfm was needed?


Hikarushka,

Please, what is a "cfm".  I just noticed this informative post.

Can you e-mail me the text of the ceremonial? It is written in Russian?  In French?  In both?

What titles are used for the Ambassadors?

I would be very interested to see this text.

Regards,


Alexander Alexandrovitch

P.S.  Your work appears to be interesting to me.  Let's change -- you come to Shanghai and I'll go to Moscow.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 10:38:56 AM
Quote
Pls see 14 o'clock not 4 in the previous message

As for the Name of Italian Ambassador,
In 1900 year it  was Mr. Marra de Lavriano - General -leutenant . The address of the Italian Ambassy was Moyka 86. Consulate was located on B. Morskaya 48
There were the following ambassies and Diplomatic missions in 1900 at St.-Petersburg:
Austro-Hungary
Argentina
Bawaria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Brazilia
Great Britain
Germany
Greece
Denmark
Spain
Italy
China
Mexica
Monako
Netherlands
Persia
Peru
Portugalia
Romania
Serbia
Shiam
USA
Turkey
France
Sweden and Norway
Swiss
Japan



Hikarushka,

Thank you again for an excellent job.

I understood that you meant 14h00 in your original post.  It was obvious.  And a very well done job.  What I appreciated is that you clearly delineated when internal affairs were discussed, when Russians were received, when lunch was served, and when the Foreign Ambassadors were received.

Thank you for your list of the Embassies, again an excellent job and something that I could not have done here in Shanghai.

It bears out my point that no Apostolic Nunciature existed and no Apostolic Nuncio was "en poste".

As I wrote Mikhail in Israel, Pobedenostov would have caused the entire Northern Fleet to set sail if that had happened.

With warm regards from Shanghai,

A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 10:56:51 AM
cfm is confirmation.
Ceremonial is in russian - in pure russian , where they use only one word - poslannik  - for everybody.
I have no french equivalent, but I suppose that it must exist.

I am  intresting, was it changed in the Nicholas times ot it remained without any changes  - like court dress?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 11:17:03 AM
It is quite funny!
I have checked French Baedecker of 1902 : it gives to us more ifm that English one :
In French edition , we can see the following Ambassies and cosulate:
De France
D'Anglettere
De Belgique
D, Espagne
Des Etas-Unis
D'Italy
Des Pays-Bas
De Roumanie
De Suede and Norvege
De Suisse

Does it mean ,that english speaking countries did not care about others?  :D :P :) ( It is a joke)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 11:19:56 AM
Of course , it means that  the quantity of  french speaking people  was much more than one of the english speaking people .
So , we could call  20 th century of an English century.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 04, 2005, 11:22:00 AM
Alex, it would really make things simpler if you read and quote my posts more carefully.
This is what I've said about papal nuncio:
Quote
The only possible exception could be made for a papal nuncio, using Latin.

Does it imply that such an exception was actually made and a nuncio was stationed in Petersburg?...

As to the French language, you wrote:
Quote
Initially you wrote that French had been never the Official Language of the Court

Please re-read my post, and you'll find no "had been never", only "was not" - which makes a great difference since we're talking here about a certain period of time.

On the issue of diplomatic relations, they either exist between a pair of countries or they don't. In the former case there could be various forms of representation.  For example, China established diplomatic relations with Antigua and Barbuda in 1983, but there is neither Antiguan embassy in Beijing  nor Chinese embassy in Saint John's.  

Finally, thank you for asking whether things are going well in Israel. To the best of my knowledge, they do.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: georgecl on August 04, 2005, 11:58:23 AM
HI
I've been following this thread..Great stuff.. :D

I think I've posted this before.  But my Grandmothers first Husband was a diplomat in Moscow at the end of the Imperial Russian Empire and after..
He was of Chinese decent raised in Russia..They both spoke French, English and of course Russian.

This is his calling card using French as his introduction.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/georgecl/Yuri%20photos/Yuricard.jpg
Thanks
George
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 12:32:08 PM
I have one puzzle, I have just thought about it :

I have read in the information list of the of 1902 that Japanese Head of Mission Mr. Kurino could speak English but he almost  could not  speak French,  only a little.

In the Xenia 's Diary of the 1st January 1904 , it is written that Everybody with interest saw how Niki had a conversation with the Japanese (with Mr. Kurino) .Mr.Kurino also met a lot of time with Witte.

The question is : what language they used?

Maybe Mr. Kurino impoved his French being in Russia?

I would like to know ( if it is possible)  if there were some restrictions or severe rules about Language usage during official reception such as New Year Reception of Diplomatic corpus?

Or Nicholas choose the language according the possibility of the partner?
The point is that all official letters between Russian's Ministries and Embassies located in  Russia were in French.

Maybe somebody has some examples or memoirs?
Thank you
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on August 04, 2005, 12:41:02 PM
Hikaru,
The "Diplomat's Handbook for Russia" published in English in 1896 by the Imperial Ministry for the use of the diplomatic corps from English speaking countrie sets for the proper forms of address and title to the Imperial Family in English:
"(After the Emperor and Empress) The next position in the line of the members of the Imperial House belongs to the Heir Apparent of the throne, and to his wife. He bears the title of Heir-Apparent Cesarevitch, Grand Duke, and Imperial Highness. The wife of the Heir-Apparent is called Cesarevna and Grand Duchess, her title being Imperial Highness.

Then follow, firstly the Emperor's sons, daughters and grandchildren (children of his sons); they enjoy the title of Grand Duke, Grand Duchess, and Imperial Highness. Secondly, the great grandchildren of the Emperor in the male line, and all the senior male descendants of the great grandsons, ie: the eldest sons, etc.; they have the title of Prince and Princess of Imperial Blood and Highness. And at length, thirdly all the remaining members of the Imperial House, consequently the younger sons and daughters of the great grandsons etc., are all entitled to the calling of Princes of the Imperial blood, but with the title of Serenissime."

Ambassador Francis reports that his meetings with Nicholas were always held in "impeccible" English and the usual New Years Day exchanges with the staff of the US Embassy in Petrograd and Nicholas were always entirely in English as well.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 04, 2005, 12:46:57 PM
Thank you very much.
Please say something more.
Was there in this handbook something about the
language usage?
And about the audience rules?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on August 04, 2005, 12:51:01 PM
Also,
Ambassador Francis reports that on the New Years' reception for 1916, Nicholas spoke English only to the English and US delegations, French to the   French, Italian and Spanish delegations.  He then says that Nicholas went on to the Japanese delegation, speaking to them for 15 mintues, but he doesn't say in what language!

I will go find the Handbook in Bob's library and look thru it for your answers.

Edited: The Handbook does not answer your questions, sadly. We only have volume 1 of 2, never able to find volume 2, so perhaps the answer is there.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on August 04, 2005, 01:08:27 PM
In 1896, The Handbook says:

"The foreign institutions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs consist of embassies and missions and consulates.  The first two are for political relations, the last chiefly for commercial and economic matters.  Permanent representatives of Russia in foreign states date only from Peter the Great.  At present there are embassies in Austria, Great Britain, the German Empire, France, Italy and Turkey; their chiefs are called ambassadors (extraordinary and plenipotentiary) and they alone are considered as representatives of the Person of His Imperial Majesty.

In other countries Russia has missions, under the management of extraordinary  and plenipotentiary ministers, resident ministers, political agents and charges d'affaires. "
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 04, 2005, 01:47:38 PM
Quote
Ambassador Francis reports that his meetings with Nicholas were always held in "impeccible" English

Nicholas was known to prefer English over French whenever the situation permitted (apparently because English was the language spoken between him and Alix). Since it was always him who decided when and with whom to start a conversation, the decision to use English was also entirely his and not his English-speaking conversation partners'.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 04, 2005, 08:18:56 PM
Quote
It is quite funny!
I have checked French Baedecker of 1902 : it gives to us more ifm that English one :
In French edition , we can see the following Ambassies and cosulate:
De France
D'Anglettere
De Belgique
D, Espagne
Des Etas-Unis
D'Italy
Des Pays-Bas
De Roumanie
De Suede and Norvege
De Suisse

Does it mean ,that english speaking countries did not care about others?  :D :P :) ( It is a joke)



This is one point that I was going to make last night...but it got late in Shanghai and I was tired.

Look at the list of Embassies in the respective French, German and English editions of the 1914 Baedeker and you will find them all very, very different....

except for the fact that nowhere is there a listing of the Holy See.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 05, 2005, 06:18:24 AM
Quote
As for Baedecker of 1914, he refers only to 2  Embassies: Great Britain and United States of America


A possible explanation why the 1914 English language Baedecker was narrowed down to only two entries may be attributed to the fact that the majority of Engish speaking travellers originated from those two countries. ;)

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 09:34:49 AM
But it is quite unjust : in French edition there are Angletter and Les Etat-Unis but in English edition ,
there are only Great Britain and United States.
Do not you think so?    :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 09:37:09 AM
Forum Admin !
Thank you very very much for  the kind investigation.
I never saw this Handbook. Will try to get it.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on August 05, 2005, 11:35:05 AM
Here's another one for those of you who know Russian language and culture better than I:

I know Russian uses both formal and informal pronouns. I'm wondering which forms OTMAA would have used in addressing non-royals, such as the many soldiers they had contact with from 1914-1918. In know that generally, a young person addressing someone older would use the formal pronoun. But I don't know if their rank as Tsesarevich or Grand Duchess would take precedence and require them to use the informal. Then there's the whole issue of how unaffected they were by their position in society, which leaves me totally flummoxed!
:P
Sm
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 12:31:04 PM
In one modern Encyclopedia called  " the Court of Russian Emperors" I have found the list of the Courts of the Russian Imperial House ( on the situation of 1st January 1914) - Maybe it is from such Handbook?
If FA want, I could fax it. ( I do not think that it could be problem, because this is 1914)
From the list, I have understood that the Number of Ladies- of - Waiting were a few.
I could count them:
Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova

Maria Pavlovna - Hofmeisterine - Countess Shuvalova,
Lady - in - Waiting  - Oliv
Special lady-in-waiting - countess Gagarina

Cirill Vladimirovich 's Court:
Hofmeisterina of Viktoria Ph. -  widow of the naval subcolonel Durnovo

Court of GD Konstantin K.:
Hofmeisterina of Elizaveta Mavrikievna - Baronesse Korf L.K.
Lady - in -Waiting - Baronesse Korf S.N.


GD Nikolay Nikolaevich's Court:
Lady - in -Waiting of Anastasiya Nikolaevna - Peterson A.K.

Court of GD Pyotr Nikolaevich :
Lady- in - Waiting of Militsa Nikolaevna - Pushkina A.A.

Court of GD GEorgy Mikhaylovich
Special lady of Maria Georgievna - Philosofova O.N.

Court of GD Alexandr Mikhaylovich
Lady-in- Waiting of Xenia  Alexandrovna - Evreinova S.D.
Lady-in -Waiting of Irina Alexandrovna - Countess Komarovskaya E.L.

Court of GD Olyga Alexandrovna
Lady -in-Waiting - Duchess Gagarina E.S.



Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 12:41:29 PM
I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 05, 2005, 05:44:15 PM
Quote
I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
 Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?


Dear Hikaru,

I do not know the first word Vsepresvetleyshy but I have transliterated the rest of the style into proper English as follows:

Omnipotent Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 06:03:21 PM
Vspresvetleishy
is something like : The most enlightful.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 05, 2005, 07:09:10 PM
Quote
In one modern Encyclopedia called  " the Court of Russian Emperors" I have found the list of the Courts of the Russian Imperial House ( on the situation of 1st January 1914) - Maybe it is from such Handbook?
If FA want, I could fax it. ( I do not think that it could be problem, because this is 1914)
From the list, I have understood that the Number of Ladies- of - Waiting were a few.
I could count them:
 Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova

Maria Pavlovna - Hofmeisterine - Countess Shuvalova,
Lady - in - Waiting  - Oliv
Special lady-in-waiting - countess Gagarina

Cirill Vladimirovich 's Court:
Hofmeisterina of Viktoria Ph. -  widow of the naval subcolonel Durnovo

Court of GD Konstantin K.:
Hofmeisterina of Elizaveta Mavrikievna - Baronesse Korf L.K.
Lady - in -Waiting - Baronesse Korf S.N.


GD Nikolay Nikolaevich's Court:
Lady - in -Waiting of Anastasiya Nikolaevna - Peterson A.K.

Court of GD Pyotr Nikolaevich :
Lady- in - Waiting of Militsa Nikolaevna - Pushkina A.A.

Court of GD GEorgy Mikhaylovich
Special lady of Maria Georgievna - Philosofova O.N.

Court of GD Alexandr Mikhaylovich
Lady-in- Waiting of Xenia  Alexandrovna - Evreinova S.D.
Lady-in -Waiting of Irina Alexandrovna - Countess Komarovskaya E.L.

Court of GD Olyga Alexandrovna
Lady -in-Waiting - Duchess Gagarina E.S.






Hikarushka,

Thank you for this document.  By 1914, Mme Orbeliani was quite ill and also the Empress and Mme Obolensky were "refroidies".

You may wish to check another source as the Dowager Empress had four ladies-in-waiting, not only two, in addition to which she had her Private Secretary, etc., etc.

Your source is quite correct in terms of Marie Pavlovna, exept I do not believe it was this "Mme Oliv" to whom you referred.  Additionally, Mme Pavlovna had two ladies-in-waiting, not one.

If you have access to the Court Circular for Tsarkoe Selo wherein it lists whom the Empress received and with whom, you will see be able to determine more clearly.  I am sure from friends in Moscow that this Court Circular has served.

Extremely helpful.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 05, 2005, 07:11:50 PM
Quote

Dear Hikaru,

I do not know the first word Vsepresvetleyshy[/i] but I have transliterated the rest of the style into proper English as follows:

Omnipotent Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign

David


Dear David, Dear Hikaru:

"Most Illumined" but then again David, I will leave the exact English rendering to you...
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 05, 2005, 07:15:35 PM
Quote
I have  a copy of letter that one of my grand grand grand grand fathers wrote to Nicholas I ( 1837)
The writing form of the Nicholas's title sounds very intresting:
 Vsepresvetleyshy, Derzavneyshy, Veliky Gosudary Imperator Nikolay Pavlovich Samoderzets Vserossiysky Gosudary Vsemilosteiveishy

( I am unable to translate it )
Oral title and writing title were different .
But it seems that the writing form became more simple in the beginning of the 20th century. Or not?



Dear Hikaru,

No, you are correct, this would have been in writing the Tsar until the beginning of the Revolution.  This would have been used, however, by those of a lesser rank than Grand Duke or a Prince of the Royal Blood; a Metropolitan of the Church would have written otherwise.

With kind regards,

A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 05, 2005, 07:33:28 PM
Dear Hikaru,

There are a few different choices for the transliteration into proper court English. My own choice for this word would be Most Enlightened. Of course the styles with the Russian word svet within or prefixed to them are usually translated into the equivelent Latin based word serene, so theoretically it could also be Most Serene. In the case of an Emperor, Most Serene does not sound grand enough. Most Enlightened sounds most appropriate to me.


Most Enlightened, Omnipotent, Great Sovereign Emperor Nikolai Pavlovich, Autocrat of all the Russias, Most Merciful Sovereign,
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 06, 2005, 01:05:01 AM
Thank you all.
As for the court list,  I took only Ladies- in - Waiting but it contains the names and posts of the secretaries, doctors etc.
I am sure that it is from somekind of the Handbook or from annually book like " All Petersburg"

As for Oliv, Lady- in - Waiting of Maria Pavlovna, Her name was Elizaveta Sergeevna and she was a daughter of Sergey Vasilievich Oliv, General

As for Court Circular - do you mean Kamer- Fourriersky Journal?if you mean this, the names of freylinas were not reffered there  every day. Only sometimes , maybe on the wish of the man who wrote it or in case of some big event.
By the way , who was in duty to write the Kamer - Fourrier journal?

I thought that 2 freylinas for Marie Feodorovna are  not enough.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 01:31:40 AM
Quote
Thank you all.
As for the court list,  I took only Ladies- in - Waiting but it contains the names and posts of the secretaries, doctors etc.
I am sure that it is from somekind of the Handbook or from annually book like " All Petersburg"

As for Oliv, Lady- in - Waiting of Maria Pavlovna, Her name was Elizaveta Sergeevna and she was a daughter of Sergey Vasilievich Oliv, General

As for Court Circular - do you mean Kamer- Fourriersky Journal?if you mean this, the names of freylinas were not reffered there  every day. Only sometimes , maybe on the wish of the man who wrote it or in case of some big event.
By the way , who was in duty to write the Kamer - Fourrier journal?

I thought that 2 freylinas for Marie Feodorovna are  not enough.



Hirakushka,

Please, I need more information than this.  A newspaper called "All Petera"?  Can you provide more information.

To answer your questions :

The OberKammermeister would have been responsible for the Kammernii Kourrier.  The post of OberKammermeister was not a very dynamic post; it was a static post, and one in which the sons of one generation often had replaced the fathers of the previous.  It was a position of great trust.  My memory fails me as to who was the OberKammermeister in the last several years of Nicolas's Reign.  I am sure that you can pull that one up quickly in Moscow.
Naryshkin was Master of the Robes.  Was it Freidrichs?  Might it have been Benckendorff?  I seem to feel that it was Prince Obolensky.  Please check.  MY MEMORY CAME BACK TO ME.  I am sure that the last OberKammermeister was Baron Meyendorff, who later emigrated to Paris, and then his sons emigrated to New  York. Almost 100% sure.  Please let me know.

The ladies-in-waiting were not listed everyday, but if you read the Kammernii Kourier for two-or-three months, you will have a very accurate idea of who was "en poste".  

Regarding Maria Feodorovna, "preseance" (court protocol) dictated that she have at least an equal number of "Frauleina" if not greater than the Empress -- remember, she was highly of higher rank than the Empress, something that bothered the Empress to the end (and a position which the Dowager Empress thoroughly enjoyed).

Hirakushka, I do remember, however, that Marie Feodorovna had at least four frauleina (I will continue to use the Russian word) and these frauleina changed very little (meaning she was very liked by them and they quite liked her).  Upon the death of her husband, until about 1905, I believe, they did not change, and they only changed slightly after.

The usual course of employ for a Frauleine was from Maria Pavlovna's employ, or the employ of Marie Feodorovna, to the employ of the Empress.  Alexandra Feodorovna eventually stopped this practice and replied upon Mme Vryubova for suggestions.  Additionally, Count Petr Apraxine was also very formative in his suggestions, and was Baron Meyendorf.

There we are...
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 06, 2005, 02:01:23 AM
Dear Alexandr Alexandrovich!

"Veshy Peterburg" is not a newspaper.
"All Petersburg " is a 7 kg 's big  red volume (brick) .
It is annual edition. It consists the ifm of all official institutes, addresse of all Ministries , Embassies, Court Names etc.
as well it consists the names and addresses  and tel no. (when tel. appeared) of all people who were registered
in the city.
The best editions are till 1918.
But they continued to print it till 1925-1927 in the same form. But then the content became lesser and lesser.
Almost all archives have it.
Sometimes  I saw it in the antique books store , but it's usual  price was  more than 1000 dollars.
In Internet there is an " All Moscow" edition of 1901.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 06, 2005, 02:17:33 AM
Do you mean Ober- Kamerger by saying Ober Kammermeister?
if you mean Ober- Kamerger , that  I have found that on the situation of 01.01.1915, there were no a man on this post. In November of 1916  Styurmer have received this post.  From 1884 -1902 Naryshkin Emmanuil Dmitrievich was in this post.  Completely as you said. Naryshkin died on 1902 when he was 90 year old. I did not find yet who was till 1915.

Fredericks was a Minister of a Court from 1897 till 1917.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 06, 2005, 02:24:36 AM
Quote
theoretically it could also be Most Serene. In the case of an Emperor, Most Serene does not sound grand enough.

Most Serene is the correct translation. E.g. in his famous speech at Worms Martin Luther addressed Charles V. The classic Russian translation of this speech contains "Vsesvetleyshiy Imperator", while in English it's always translated "Most Serene Emperor".

Besides that, the English "enlightened" has quite a different meaning from the Russian "svetleyshiy".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 06, 2005, 02:30:27 AM
Quote

Marie Feodorovna -  Countess Geiden, Countess Mengden

Alexandra Feodorovna - Hofmeisterine - Naryshkina,
Lady - In - Waiting - Duchess Obolenskaya, Duchess Jambakurian-Orbeliani, Byutsova
Special Lady -Countess Hendrikova


These were the ladies attached to:

1. Her Imperial Majesty Dowager Empress Mari Fedorovna (Pri Ee Vdovstvuushei Imperatritse Marii Fedorovna:

. Starshaya Dama (Mistress of the Robes) -

Knyaginya (Princess) Elena Kochubey

. Kamer-freilini (Maids of Honor) -

Grafin'i (Countesses):

Algaida Golenistchev-Koutouzova (d. 1915),
Mariya Golenistchev-Koutouzova (d. 1915),
Ekaterina Sergeevna Ozerova.

. Freilini -

Mariya Sergeevna Benkendorf,
Ol'ga Alexandrovna Heyden,
Zinaida Georgievna Mengden.

Zaveduyushii Kanselyariya Vdovstuushei Imperatritze (Head of Chancellery and Secretariat of Dowager Empress M.F.) -

Graf (Count) Arsenii Arkad'yevich Golenistschev-Koutuzov (d. 1913)

Ober-gofmeister -

Knyaz' (Prince) Vladimir Anatolyevich Bariatinsky

. Gofmeistera:

General-Ad'jutant, Knyaz' Nikolai Dmitrievich Obolensky (d. 1912),
Fligel'-Ad'jutant, Knyaz' Georgi Dmitrievich Schervachidze.
_____________________________________________

2. Attached to Her Imperial Majesty Alexandra Fedorovna (Pri Ee Imperatorskogo Velichestvo Aleksandra Fedorovna):

. Ober-gofmeistrina pri Visochaishego Dvora (Chief Lady in Waiting + Mistress of the Robes attached to the Imperial Court)

Knyaginya (Princess) Marya Mikhailovna Golitzyn  (d. 1910)

. Gofmeistrina pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Knyaginya Elizaveta Alekseevna Narishkina

. Starshiye-Dami pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Knyaginya Aleksandra Alexeyevna Kozena,
Grafin'ya Gedviga Aloizievna de Freederiks.

. Kamer-Freilini pri Visochaishego Dvora:

Baronessa Sophia Karlovna Buxhoeveden (the most senior),
Knyaginya Sonya Ivanovna Orbeliani (d. 1915),
Grafinya Anastasiya Vasilievna Hendrikova,
Anna Alexandrovna Vyrubova.

. Freilini pri Visochaishego Dvora (Honorary Ladies in Waiting):

Knyaginii
Mariya Bariatinskaya,
Ol'ga Evgenyeva Butzova (until 1915),
Elizaveta Karlovna Cantacuzene (Countess Speranskaya),
Elizaveta Kochubey,
Elizaveta Obolenskaya,
Ol'ga Konstantinovna Orlova,
Mariya Alexandrovna Vasil'chikova.

. Ober-gofmeister:

Graf Vasili Alexandrovich Hendrikov (in 1911)

. Zaveduyushii Kanselyarei Tsaritse (Head of her Majesty's Chancellery):

Gofmarshal Graf Yakov Nikolaevich Rostovtsov

- he was also her Private Secretary.

. General-Adj'utanti:

Baron Fedor Meyendorff,
Admiral Konstantin Pavlovich Pilkin (d. 1913)

This list does not provide all personages attached to each Court.





Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 02:32:58 AM
Quote
Do you mean Ober- Kamerger by saying Ober Kammermeister?
if you mean Ober- Kamerger , that  I have found that on the situation of 01.01.1915, there were no a man on this post. In November of 1916  Styurmer have received this post.  From 1884 -1902 Naryshkin Emmanuil Dmitrievich was in this post.  Completely as you said. Naryshkin died on 1902 when he was 90 year old. I did not find yet who was till 1915.

Fredericks was a Minister of a Court from 1897 till 1917.


Yes, Ober---Kamerger.

I was aware that All Peters was a "botin" (a listing of all of the posts, etc.).  I SWEAR, Hirakushka, that in 1915-197 it was Baron von Meyendorff.

Regards,

A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 02:37:39 AM
Dear All,

Thank you very much.  Very informative.

But Belochka, can you please provide the Russian title for "general adjutant"

I am looking at Baron von Meyendorff....

Regards,

A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 06, 2005, 02:42:40 AM


I believe you. I have just posted what I have found in the book.
General-Adyutant was  in Russian . (the same)
in 1913, Duke Shervashize was Ober hofmeister of
Maria Feorovna .
Baryatinsky was general -adyutant.                                                                          Kulomzin  was a secretary of Marie Feodorovna
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 06, 2005, 03:31:32 AM
Quote
Dear All,
But Belochka, can you please provide the Russian title for "general adjutant"

I am looking at Baron von Meyendorff....

Regards,

A.


The Russian transliteration is as I have provided in my Court Listing - General-Adj'utant

Baron Mikhail Meyendorf (1838-1919) was a General and who was associated with the Red Cross Mission in Copenhagen. Exiled in Copenhagen following the Bolshevik Revolution. He was buried in Nice.

. Baronessa Mimi Meyendorf (spouse) nee Sheremetyevna.

[Ref: M.F. Diaries (2005) p 666]

Trust this helps you! :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 06, 2005, 03:40:11 AM
Quote

Kulomzin  was a secretary of Marie Feodorovna


Kolomzin, Anatoli Nikolaevich (1838- 1923)  was a Gofmeister  and President of the Committee for Orphaned Children in Romanovsk.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: hikaru on August 06, 2005, 03:48:12 AM
Kulomzin Anatoly Nikolaevich, at the situation of 1913 was a camerger and  a Chief of the Chancellary.
( I have read it in my book)

According the book of Marie Feodorovna Diaries , he was Hofmeister. Maybe he became hofmeyster after 1913.

As for his Father Name, it is intresting.
In some book it refers as A.A.

Such things often happened.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 03:53:42 AM
Quote

Kolomzin, Anatoli Nikolaevich (1838- 1923)  was a Gofmeister  and President of the Committee for Orphaned Children in Romanovsk.


Please excuse me..but it's an historial footnote.

And the Kolomzin family emigrated in the Revolution, first to Latvia, then to Paris (where they were instrumental in founding l'Institut St-Serge), some are buried in Ste-Genevieve-des-Bois, and after the war, the remaining Kolomzine (by this time using the French spelling), emigrated to New York, where one daugther became as established professor at a Russian Orthodox Theological Seminary  The daughter died at a very advanced age, only several years ago and is bured at the Tolstoy Foundation Cemetery, outside of New York.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 03:58:34 AM
Quote

The Russian transliteration is as I have provided in my Court Listing - General-Adj'utant

Baron Mikhail Meyendorf (1838-1919) was a General and who was associated with the Red Cross Mission in Copenhagen. Exiled in Copenhagen following the Bolshevik Revolution. He was buried in Nice.

. Baronessa Mimi Meyendorf (spouse) nee Sheremetyevna.
[Ref: M.F. Diaries (2005) p 666]

Trust this helps you! :)


Again an historical perspective.  After the Revolution, the Meyendroff family settled in Copehagen where he served the Dowager Empress briefly.  They then moved to Paris where they were instrumental, together with the Kulomzine's below, in founding the Institut St-Serge, which for a period of time, was the only functioning Russian Orthodox Seminary in the world.  Because they spoke both German and Russian, during the Occupation some of the family members assisted the Kriegsmarine, and thus after the war some of the family members left for New York, the others, who had not been involved, remained in Paris.  The New York branch was instrumental in the furthering of St. Vladimir's Russian Orthodox Seminary in Crestwood, Tuckahoe.  Fr. J. Meyendorff was Rector of the Seminary for many years.  He passed away many years ago and his son has followed him in the father's footsteps.  The Paris branch of the family remains highly Russified, even after 80 years abroad, and remain a beacon of the Russian community.

The Moscow branch of the Sheremetyva family took a different path after the Revolution : some went directly to Buenos Aires, others went to Harbin and others settled briefly in Paris and then left for New York in the after-war years.  The Paris branch has since deceased, as has the New York branch; however, the Buenos Aires branch emigrated to San Francisco when the Argentine economy fell apart in the late 1960s have produced progeniture.  They are quite active in the Parish Cathedral of the Church Abroad in San Francisco.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 06, 2005, 05:25:50 AM
Quote
According the book of Marie Feodorovna Diaries , he was Hofmeister. Maybe he became hofmeyster after 1913.


The original Germanic appellation in Russian texts is Gofmeister  :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 06, 2005, 05:33:39 AM
Thanks Alex you had far more details that I could access in a short period.

I find it fascinating how emigres managed to cope after 1917; and how scattered the Russian community became over successive decades around this precious world of ours.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 07:14:52 AM
Quote
Thanks Alex you had far more details that I could access in a short period.

I find it fascinating how emigres managed to cope after 1917; and how scattered the Russian community became over successive decades around this precious world of ours.



Belochka,

The details are all from memory.  I write very humbly when I say that these are all families that I have known and that have known me.  We all kind of keep track of each other.  I am sure that you can understand that.

My point in writing was to show that a good part of the Russian elite, scattered abroad after 1917, still believes in an "obshaya vockrecenyia Rossii", as do I.  Frankly, I am delighted that the Church is restoring itself to its former position of preeminence.  I am very grateful to the Patriarch personally for supporting the rights of the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna to the Throne.  The West wrote Russia off in 1917, again in 1945 and now.  But this century could be a century of great surprises.

Thank you for appreciating my posts.

A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 07:46:36 PM
Quote
You can actually find the English equivalents in my translation:

1.Oberhofmeisterin - Grand Mistress of the Court
2.Hofmeisterin - Mistress of the Court
3.Stats-Dame - lady-in-waiting  
Unmarried:
4.Kammerfräulein - Portrait Maiden of Honor
5.Fräulein - maiden of honor



And Mme Naryshkina, who was Mistress of the Robes, her title would have been ...(in Russian, I mean, please)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Matjlav on August 08, 2005, 07:52:31 PM
Quote
His Highness the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line and the eldest son of each of the great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.


Would the eldest son of the eldest son of a great grandson also be a Highess? That's what I've always gathered; problem is, I don't think the issue ever came up, but I figure there is an Imperial Household Law concerning the issue.

Quote
His Serenity the Prince of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand sons of the Emperor in the male line.

Her Serenity the Princess of the Imperial Blood
Great great grand daughters of the Emperor in the male line.


Don't Serene Prince/sses include all male-line non-morganatic descendants of a Russian Emperor that do not meet any of the qualifications to be a Grand Duke of Highness?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 08, 2005, 11:20:57 PM
Quote

Would the eldest son of the eldest son of a great grandson also be a Highess? That's what I've always gathered; problem is, I don't think the issue ever came up, but I figure there is an Imperial Household Law concerning the issue.


Don't Serene Prince/sses include all male-line non-morganatic descendants of a Russian Emperor that do not meet any of the qualifications to be a Grand Duke of Highness?


Dear Mat,

Regarding the title of Highness and the eldest son of a GD who was the grandson of an emperor. This eldest son is the representative of this cadet line of the Imperial House. Along with the style of Highness the representative of this cadet line also has a distinctive coat-of-arms. The arms, title and style descend by male line primogenitor ad infinitum. I suppose in time this would have been changed had the monarchy survived.

(http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4612/seniormaleheirofagd7du.jpg)
The large coat-of arms of a Highness Prince of the Imperial Blood who is the senior male heir by primogenitor of a Grand Duke who was the grandson of an Emperor.


Regarding your second question, No. Certain relatives were granted the style of Highness even though they were not Grand Dukes. Some of the morganauts also hold the style of Serene. Of course there are the heads of the cadet lines that hold the style of Highness.

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 09, 2005, 12:24:34 AM
Quote

Dear Mat,

Regarding the title of Highness and the eldest son of a GD who was the grandson of an emperor. This eldest son is the representative of this cadet line of the Imperial House. Along with the style of Highness the representative of this cadet line also has a distinctive coat-of-arms. The arms, title and style descend by male line primogenitor ad infinitum. I suppose in time this would have been changed had the monarchy survived.

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/9109/seniormaleheirofagd9gq.jpg)

The large coat-of arms of a Highness Prince of the Imperial Blood who is the senior male heir by primogenitor of a Grand Duke who was the grandson of an Emperor.


Regarding your second question, No. Certain relatives were granted the style of Highness even though they were not Grand Dukes. Some of the morganauts also hold the style of Serene. Of course there are the heads of the cadet lines that hold the style of Highness.

David


David,

Thank you so much for the very, very learned explanation.  It is very helpful to me.

Again,

bolshoe vam cpacibo...

i prodolzhaete p++++a

c ucpexom.


AA.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 09, 2005, 04:26:31 AM
Quote
those of a lesser rank than Grand Duke or a Prince of the Royal Blood; a Metropolitan of the Church would have written otherwise.


Knyazii (Dukes) i Grafi were styled:

Vasaha Siyatel'stvo

while the Metropolitan and Archiepiskop were addressed as:

Vashe Visokopreosvyashenstvo



Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 09, 2005, 04:46:25 AM
Quote

Knyazii (Dukes) i Grafi were styled:

Vasaha Siyatel'stvo

while the Metropolitan and Archiepiskop were addressed as:

Vashe Visokopreosvyashenstvo

I concur, Belochka, about the Grafs.

However, in some cases, upon decision of the Holy Synod, a Metropolitan could also be called :

"Vashe Blazhentsvo".

This was usually reserved for an outstanding prelate and for an oustanding see (Kiev, Petersburg).

Another form would have been (in direct speech):

"Evo Visokopreosvyashenstvo, Blazhineeshee X"





Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 09, 2005, 05:43:00 AM
Quote
However, in some cases, upon decision of the Holy Synod, a Metropolitan could also be called :
 
"Vashe Blazhentsvo".


Is this a contemporary designation to distinguish the Russian Metropolit from the one in Kiev or was this particular address used during Imperial era as well?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: julia.montague on August 09, 2005, 07:18:02 AM
I am wondering about the titles of Olga, Tatjana, Maria and Anastasia (and any other children of Russian Tsars).
In English they are always called Grandduchesses, while in German texts it's "Großfürstinnen" which means Grandprincesses.
What's the right title?
Grandduchess or Grandprincess??
Julia
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2005, 08:22:12 AM
In English, prince & princess refer to the children of a king. Duke & duchess are the children of an emperor.  There are a few folks out there who insist on using Grand Princess rather than Grand Duchess (most notably, the author Charlotte Zeepvat) but I believe the correct translation is Grand Duke/Duchess.

In Olga Alexandrovna's memoirs there's a charming story about a Canadian child who asks Olga (in English), "Is it true you're a princess?" Olga replied, "No, I'm a Russian Grand Duchess." I figure, if the daughter of a tsar says it that way, it's good enough for me!
;)
Sm
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: julia.montague on August 09, 2005, 10:07:01 AM
Thanks for your answer.
It seems that Grandduchess is the right title.
I just think it's strange that really every german book, film.... calls them Grandprincesses, but maybe someone translated it hundred of years ago and noone knew it better... ???
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on August 09, 2005, 12:16:13 PM
Yes, Emperor is superior to just a King.  I believe this is a major reason why Queen Victoria felt it was so important to become "Empress of India".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 09, 2005, 01:56:28 PM
Yes Grand Duchess is correct, because OTMA (and all the other grand duchesses or Russia) were much higher ranked than the other princesses and etc. so they were called not just Duchesses, but Grand Duchesses!

~Anya~
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 09, 2005, 02:33:26 PM
True, your Highness. ;)

For their cousin - Princess Irina (before marring HSH the Prince Felix Yussupov)

She was Her Highness the Princess Irina Aleksandrovna Romanova of Russia ( Princess of Imperial blood)


In Russia. its

Tsar (Emperor)
Dowager Tsarina (Empress) (The engish will call it " The Queen Mother" - mother of the Tsar)
Tsarina (Empress)
Tsarevitch ( Crown Prince; the Tsarevitch also has the title of Grand Duke)
Tsarevna (Crown Princess; also the title of Grand Duchess)
Grand Duke / Grand Duchess ( - Grand Prince/ Grand Princess- Family members of the Tsar)
Prince/Princess (of Imperial blood)
Prince/Princess
Count/Countess
Baron/Baroness

For Marrages that were not giving permission by the Tsar - Countess de Torby, Princess Paley, etc.. were giving titles of noblty. but there still a member of the Imperial Family. But giving a noble rank instand of Imperial.



 I'm not 100% sure. :-/
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 10, 2005, 05:23:39 AM
Belochka,

No, this is a very, very old title, and it actually predates in Church usage, the "vashe visokopreoztvechentsvo" (I hate write Russian in Western script -- can  you please ask the Forum Admin to allow us to use proper Russian script on this site..it is almost demeaning.)

As you know Peter the Great, another Russian who was influenced by Germany and the Protestants in General, abolished the Patriarchate, in order to better control the Church, actually to politicize it.  More Westernization of a Russian institution.  He tried to make it look like the Lutheran Chruch.

Prior to that, the Patriarch, as he is still known today, was and is, addressed as "Vashe Cveiyatshestvo" ("Your Holiness").

The Metropolitans of the five original exparchial sees of Greater Russia (Kiev, Petersburg, Nizhninovogorod, Odessa and Moscow) were addressed as "Vashe Blazhentsvo ("Your Beautitude"), as they were primus inter pares of the others.

The other Metropolitans were thus addressed with the title you indicated.

After the Abolition of the Patriarchate, since there was no more "Your Holiness", Peter the Great also abolished the title of "Your Beautitude" and destroyed the system of primus inter pares.  All Metropolitans and Archbishops were known by the title you indicated.

After the Restauration of the Patriarchate in 1917, truly by the will of God in the midst of all that Godless turbulence, there was once again a title of Your Holiness but the title of Your Beautitude was held back and then suppressed under the Godless Soviet regime.  In 1993, the current Patriarchat restored the title, but so far there have been only two Blazhentsvo's : as you correctly note the Metropolitan of Kiev, and the Metropolitan of Petersburg.

The current First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad is not referred to as Your Beautitude.  Nonetheless, the previous Metropolitan was accorded that title by decision of the Holy Synod and it is my understanding that the current Metropolitan will also be granted this title.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on August 10, 2005, 11:03:06 AM
This is really getting interesting. ;)  I had no idea there was so many styles!

Sorry to interupt, but I was wondering who you would use the style? "my/m'lord" and/or "my/m'lady".  Would you use it on any high-ranking person, or just on noblemen/women?

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Matjlav on August 10, 2005, 12:54:58 PM
Quote
This is really getting interesting. ;)  I had no idea there was so many styles!

Sorry to interupt, but I was wondering who you would use the style? "my/m'lord" and/or "my/m'lady".  Would you use it on any high-ranking person, or just on noblemen/women?

Thanks. :)


In the UK, one would address a marquess, earl, viscount, baron, and their female counterparts as "my lord" or "my lady."
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 11, 2005, 04:56:55 AM
Quote
Belochka,

No, this is a very, very old title, and it actually predates in Church usage, the "vashe visokopreoztvechentsvo" (I hate write Russian in Western script -- can  you please ask the Forum Admin to allow us to use proper Russian script on this site..it is almost demeaning.)

As you know Peter the Great, another Russian who was influenced by Germany and the Protestants in General, abolished the Patriarchate, in order to better control the Church, actually to politicize it.  More Westernization of a Russian institution.  He tried to make it look like the Lutheran Chruch.

Prior to that, the Patriarch, as he is still known today, was and is, addressed as "Vashe Cveiyatshestvo" ("Your Holiness").

The Metropolitans of the five original exparchial sees of Greater Russia (Kiev, Petersburg, Nizhninovogorod, Odessa and Moscow) were addressed as "Vashe Blazhentsvo ("Your Beautitude"), as they were primus inter pares of the others.

The other Metropolitans were thus addressed with the title you indicated.

After the Abolition of the Patriarchate, since there was no more "Your Holiness", Peter the Great also abolished the title of "Your Beautitude" and destroyed the system of primus inter pares.  All Metropolitans and Archbishops were known by the title you indicated.

After the Restauration of the Patriarchate in 1917, truly by the will of God in the midst of all that Godless turbulence, there was once again a title of Your Holiness but the title of Your Beautitude was held back and then suppressed under the Godless Soviet regime.  In 1993, the current Patriarchat restored the title, but so far there have been only two Blazhentsvo's : as you correctly note the Metropolitan of Kiev, and the Metropolitan of Petersburg.

The current First Hierarch of the Russian Church Abroad is not referred to as Your Beautitude.  Nonetheless, the previous Metropolitan was accorded that title by decision of the Holy Synod and it is my understanding that the current Metropolitan will also be granted this title.

Hope that helps.


Alex,

Thank you for clarifying this matter for me.!  :D

Over a year ago I brought up the problem of not being able to use Cyrillic script on this forum. As I understand it, the program used here does not support anything else other than what we use now.

Some of us are fortunate to have the ability to key in Cyrillic but few posters would have the ability to read our words. ::)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 11, 2005, 05:16:26 AM
Quote

Alex,

Thank you for clarifying this matter for me.!  :D

Over a year ago I brought up the problem of not being able to use Cyrillic script on this forum. As I understand it, the program used here does not support anything else other than what we use now.

Some of us are fortunate to have the ability to key in Cyrillic but few posters would have the ability to read our words. ::)


Thank you...and about the Cyrillic....

ushaz...it's almost barbarian to have to type Russian in Western letters.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on August 11, 2005, 02:14:46 PM
Quote

In the UK, one would address a marquess, earl, viscount, baron, and their female counterparts as "my lord" or "my lady."

Thank you Mat! :)  
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: mitia on August 11, 2005, 03:39:23 PM
Dear FA, it is not HM Queen Victoria herself who felt it was so important to be an Empress. As the British Empire was still the most powerfull " state " in the late 1880s, Her Majesty 's Government thought that it was just unsuitable that Queen Victoria 's daughter ( Vicky ) would be known as Empress of Germany whereas Her Mother was " only " Queen of Great Britain etc.... Hence, Disraeli went to visit Queen Victoria at Balmoral and presented her with the tittle of Empress of India. In fact Queen Victoria rather despised tittles and aristocracy. Despite what many people may think, Queen Victoria was not at all the " Noblesse oblige " type......Best regards. Mitia.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 12, 2005, 06:25:00 AM
Quote
Thank you Mat! :)  


Which raises a question that I will ask :

when one of these English or German or whatever lords or ladies came to Imperial Russia, how were they addressed :  with the corresponding Russian equivalent (of which there usually wasn't one) or something honorific :  did it come back to the Vashe Perezidshtesltvo that we were talking about earlier?

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on August 14, 2005, 10:24:58 PM
Since AlexP was kind enough to offer an answer, I thought I'd post it in hopes anyone else is interested in the discussion:

Quote
Dear Friend,

I saw your question last week, actually, and I did not want it to get buried.

Among themselves, the G.D. would have used the "ti".  In Russian, its called "oni billi ni tii".  They would have used "ti" form with their parents.

They would have used the "vi" form with everyone else without exception BUT the point you raises is an excellent for these reasons :

at the war front, the commanding officers used the "ti" or informal when addressing soldiers of a lessor rank.  The Emperor did not.  He was a on "vi" with everyone.

The Grand Duchesses had a less-than-perfect command of the Russian language, and although they should have used a "ti", out of compassion for the wounded soldiers, they could have, I understsand they did not.   They remained with the "vi", perhaps at their mother's request to tended towards excessive formality in Russian (because she herself did not master the language).

With all of the best,

A.A.


This raises a couple of questions & comments:
1. I was aware that use of "ti" is a sign of familiarity & affection among friends and relatives, but I didn't know a person could use "ti" as a sign of compassion to a stranger. (I'd have expected it to come across as condescension in a stranger-to-stranger scenario.) In that case, would the soldiers have seen the Grand Duchesses use of "vi" as charming/quaint, or excessively formal?

2. I read in Rasputin: The Saint Who Sinned, that at the time of WWI, low-ranking soldiers were generally addressed with the "ti" form as a sign of their low standing in society. In fact, the author compared this form of address to the way we might now speak to children or pets. Is this true? The author's method of referencing his sources left a bit to be desired, so I'm not sure I trust him.

3. Also regarding Rasputin -- I've come across instances in a couple different books in which Rasputin seems to have irritated various high-level officials with what I assume is an inappropriate use of "ti." Strangely enough, in recounting these incidents, "ti" is rendered in English as "thou." In English, "thou" is far more formal, and infinitely more archaic than "you." Are they using "thou" for lack of a better English equivalent, or was there yet another form of the Russian informal pronoun in use at the time?

4. And finally, AlexP, do you recall where you picked up this information about the Grand Duchesses' language? I've got a degree in linguistics, so these sorts of issues fascinate me, & I'd like to read more.

Thanks so much for "addressing" my question.  ;)
Sm
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Georgiy on August 15, 2005, 04:36:59 PM
Thou in English has only come to be more 'polite' as it were, due to its falling out of general parlance. Like all the other European languages which have two 'yous', the Thou form is singular as well as informal, whereas You is plural and also formal. Of course in Bibles from the 1500 - 1600s when thou was a normal word, it is used in association with God because God is One. Using You would indicate many gods.

It seems strange we have lost the distinction in English between a singular you and many yous. In New Zealand, lots of people actually say yous when referring to more than one people, though of course it is not 'standard'.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Macedonsky on August 15, 2005, 11:40:53 PM
Quote
And Mme Naryshkina, who was Mistress of the Robes, her title would have been ...(in Russian, I mean, please)

If you mean Alexandra Nikolayevna (1839-1919) - in accordance with http://www.tstu.ru/win/tambov/kirsanov/persona/narishkina.html she was Fräulein of Empress Dowager and Stats-Dame of the Imperial Court.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 12:38:37 AM
Quote
If you mean Alexandra Nikolayevna (1839-1919) - in accordance with http://www.tstu.ru/win/tambov/kirsanov/persona/narishkina.html she was Fräulein of Empress Dowager and Stats-Dame of the Imperial Court.


Dear Macedonsky,

Thank you for the information.  It was very helpful.

But it saddened me GREATLY to know, in reading this article, that at the age of 80 years, because she was a "dvorianka", she was placed in front of a firing squad and executed, like a spy. How thoroughly revolting.  What could an 80-year old women have done in terms of counter-revolutionary activities?

The baseless of the period and those that were responsible for it.

Again, thank for the title.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.


P.S.  The only thing that surprised me in the article you gave me to read where the use of the terms "grazdanka" and "grazdanka" that.  When was this article written?  I thought those terms had mercifully died.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Macedonsky on August 16, 2005, 12:51:33 AM
Quote
P.S.  The only thing that surprised me in the article you gave me to read where the use of the terms "grazdanka" and "grazdanka" that.  When was this article written?  I thought those terms had mercifully died.

She was "pochetnaya grazhdanka" i.e. honourable person of Tambov. This is living term.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 01:48:55 AM
Quote
She was "pochetnaya grazhdanka" i.e. honourable person of Tambov. This is living term.


Yes, I understand.   Thank you.

But Belochka, Hikarushka, is there to your knowledge any other way that this might be phrased :

1.  this person was shot by the Bolsheviks at the age of 80 years;

2.  the Red Hordes loves "tovarich", "gradzanin", "gradzhanka".

3.  The spine on my back goes completely cold when I heard those words, whether or not used here in a "living" form.  It smells like being invited to the NKVD for the final interrogation.

4.  Hikarusha, Belochka, is there not a more "vezhlivii" form that we could use to distinguish a distinguished inhabitant, an honorary citizen, etc. than this combination of words.  "tonkisti".

I am sorry, Makedony, this just smells too Soviet to me, even if it is the correct literary language.  I, for one would have used another phraseology, simply out of "delicatesse".  But if there is one thing one that was lost in the Soviet system, it was the concept of being "vezhlivii".

Your help please here, dear other Russian speakers.  Kakoi-to uzhaz.


A.A.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 18, 2005, 02:48:18 PM
It was not an official title, but an indication of the "old nobility". "Stolbovoy dvoryanin" means a person whose ancestors were granted nobility in the XVII c. or earlier and whose names were included in the "stolbtsy" - ancient Russian service rosters.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: RomanovFan on August 22, 2005, 04:47:17 PM
a little off topic here...sorry..: I know the Empresses of Russia had ladies-in-waiting and mistresses of the robes and whatnot, but what about the Tsars? Did they have anyone helping them with things or just the prime ministers and advisors for political situations?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Belochka on August 23, 2005, 05:12:59 AM
Quote
.... but what about the Tsars? Did they have anyone helping them with things or just the prime ministers and advisors for political situations?


This is an excellent question which I believe should have its own thread.

Would you like to initiate a new thread so that we can segregate our disscusions between those who served the Tsaritza from those attached to the Emperor?

Thanks in anticipation.

Belochka  :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Nastya on September 05, 2005, 08:16:36 PM
romanov or romanova? some books and sites say its romanova and most say romanov. i was just wondering
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 05, 2005, 08:35:35 PM
Welcome to the forum, Nastya.

"Romanova" should be used when refering to a female member of the family.  (Princess Xenia Romanova)

"Romanov" should be used when refering to a male member of the family.  (Prince Michael Romanov)

I think the last name was only used for more distant members of the family, the great-grandchildren of tsars through the male lines and their descendants.

However, I don't think this rule is always followed.

Please correct me if I am wrong and I hope this helps you, Nastya.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 05, 2005, 11:04:40 PM
You are correct that Romanova is for females and Romanov is for males, however it should be understood that in reallity, the male line of the Imperial House of Romanov went extinct with the death of Emperor Peter II in 1730. The last female to be born of the Imperial House of Romanov was Empress Elizabeth who died in 1762. After this date the the Imperial House was called Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp beginning with Emperor Peter III.

Moganauts without Russian titles should simply use "First Name" Herzog von Schleswig-Holstein for males or "First Name" Herzogin von Schleswig-Holstein for females, rather than the family name of Romanov.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 06, 2005, 06:56:20 AM
Just wondering, what do the living "Romanovs" consider their last name?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: grandduchess_42 on September 06, 2005, 07:17:05 AM
Quote
Just wondering, what do the living "Romanovs" consider their last name?


yes it was their last name. then how would they get the name Romanova or romanov

at least i think it was their last name.  but i think i'm pretty shure.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 11, 2005, 10:54:01 PM
I see that this post has gone unanswered for quite along time.  I would think that Imperial children would address their elders as Vy rather than ty. They could of course address siblings or cousins from thier own age group or younger as ty.

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: matushka on September 12, 2005, 03:43:04 PM
They called each other with "ty", at least inside the family of the Tsar (I mean Nicolas, Alexandra Feodorovna and their children). I do not know how the children called their grand-mother, uncles and so on. I just remember a letter of Tatiana to Ksenia Aleksandrovna for new year 1916: she wrote with "Ty".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: marina on September 19, 2005, 06:15:02 AM
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. It shows again why we love them:they were like us.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on September 22, 2005, 10:26:05 PM
Matushka's right -- the children addressed both Ksenia Aleksandrovna and Anna Vyrubova with "ty" (in their letters, at least!)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on November 18, 2005, 05:11:28 PM
Sorry to bump this back up with such a petty question, but I need someone to answer it for me.

I was wondering what the "property" is called that is owned by a marquis and viscount.  What I meant by "property" is the following:

Emperor  = Empire
King        =  Kingdom
Grand Duke = Grand Duchy
Prince     = Principitality?
Duke       = Duchy
Marquis   = ??
Count      = County
Viscount  = ??
Baron      = Barony
(I think that's all)

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 18, 2005, 05:18:51 PM


Marquis   = Marquissate

Viscount  = Viscountcy
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 18, 2005, 05:27:26 PM
When referring to the territory of a German Margrave in English, one uses the term Margravate.

Though the titles of Marquis, Marquess, Marques et al. appear to be equivelent to the German rank and title of Margrave they are not. In the Holy Roman Empire, a Margrave had sovreignty while the others, Marquis, Marquess, Marques et al., were vassals of a king, prince or duke.

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on December 01, 2005, 07:27:51 PM
Referring to the British and Irish earl, what would their territory be called?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: crazy_wing on December 01, 2005, 07:35:53 PM
Quote
Referring to the British and Irish earl, what would their territory be called?

Is it earldom?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Ortino on December 01, 2005, 09:03:27 PM
Quote
Is it earldom?


yes.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: CountessKate on December 02, 2005, 09:37:16 AM
Quote
In the UK, one would address a marquess, earl, viscount, baron, and their female counterparts as "my lord" or "my lady."


Actually, you would only have done that, at least in the 19th and early 20th centuries, if you were a servant.   In fact, most forms of address are more fluid than is commonly supposed, and have more to do with in- or exclusivity and sometimes fashion, than with actual rank.  
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: TampaBay on December 04, 2005, 09:35:07 AM
Quote
In Imperial Russia, The Tsar and his immediate family (NAOTMAA) would be "Your Imperial Highness".  All other Grand Dukes/Duchesses would be "Your Highness".


Were Xenia, Olga, George and Micharl "Imperial Highnesses" aftet he Death of their father Tsar Alexander III?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Shvibzik on December 04, 2005, 09:55:33 AM
Quote

Were Xenia, Olga, George and Micharl "Imperial Highnesses" aftet he Death of their father Tsar Alexander III?

TampaBay

I would think so, since they are no longer part of the immediate family of the Tsar.  

But, as Marie was then [after the death of Alexander] the "Dowager Empress", would she be called "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Imperial Majesty" or some other style?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on December 04, 2005, 01:50:22 PM
Quote
I would think so, since they are no longer part of the immediate family of the Tsar.  

But, as Marie was then [after the death of Alexander] the "Dowager Empress", would she be called "Your Majesty" instead of "Your Imperial Majesty" or some other style?


It is interesting to think that the Romanovs were some sort of insular middle class family. I am sure that Empress Aleksandra did just this which was her greatest deficiency but they were a ruling dynasty. Until the birth of Aleksei, Grand Duke Mikhail Aleksandrovich was more important than the four daughters as he was the heir. Even with the birth of Aleksei, Grand Duke Mikhail was still second in line to inherit the Russian Throne after a very sickly boy who would most likely never reach majority.

The rules regarding the style of Imperial Highness are as follows: all legitimate children of an equal marriage of an Emperor receive the style of Imperial Highness for life. All legitimate children of an equal marriage of a son of an Emperor receive the style of Imperial Highness for life.

There have been exceptions made to this rule regarding the style of Imperial Highness but they are extremely rare, such as the case for the children of HIH Grand Duchess Maria Nikolievna and her husband the HIH Duke of Leuchtenburg/Prince Romanovsky.

Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna actually held higher precedence than any other woman in Russia including Empress Aleksandra.


David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: cimbrio on December 24, 2005, 10:32:38 AM
In 1886 Alexander III passed an ukase whereby he declared that all sons and grandchildren (through the male line, i.e., sons and daughters of a Tsar's son) were entitled to be styled Grand Duke or Grand Duchess (or Grand Prince(ss) by some sources, depending on how you translate "Knyaz"). This immediately affected KR's offspring, the first of which was born that same year and was only styled "Prince" (Knyaz) Ioann Constantinovich. The 1886 ukase not only affected the individual's title but also his income, reducing it considerably. It meant that generations further than third generation froma  Tsar (i.e., great-grandchildren) would only be Prince or Princess. To my mind, there are no living Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, but only Princes or Princesses. Nicholas II also decreed that a Prince or Princess didn't need to marry somebody necessarily royal (that's why he permitted his distant cousin Princess Tatiana to amrry Constantin of Bragation, a quasi-royal). This last reform caused some scandal within the family. This is a touchy subject of course since it affects the status of "Grand Duchess" Maria Vladimirovna. Will he son's children be also Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, even if he amrries a commoner?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on December 24, 2005, 04:47:20 PM
Quote
This is a touchy subject of course since it affects the status of "Grand Duchess" Maria Vladimirovna. Will he son's children be also Grand Dukes or Grand Duchesses, even if he amrries a commoner?


Thanks to her (great?) grandfather (the Grandduke Vladimir) and his morganatic marriage none of them should be titled or eligible for the Russian throne.  It's a totally bogus claim!  
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: RomanovFan on December 29, 2005, 03:13:23 AM
The children and grandchlidren of a tsar are given the title of grand duke or grand duchess if they are descended from a male line; if not, then they usually have no title, or are called "count" or "coutness". I think it's the great-grandchildren of a tsar, through the male line, are prince of the Imperial Blood. I'm not positive, but I think that's how it works.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: RomanovFan on December 29, 2005, 03:22:23 AM
Quote

Thanks to her (great?) grandfather (the Grandduke Vladimir) and his morganatic marriage none of them should be titled or eligible for the Russian throne.  It's a totally bogus claim!  


The grand duke Vladimir? Which one are we talking about? Her father was Grand Duke Vladimir Kyrillovitch, he married Leonida of Bagration. I'm not sure if she's decsended from a noble house or what. But according to Maria herself the line goes something like this:

Nicholas I---Alexander II---Alexander III---Nicholas II---OTMAA

Nicholas I---Alexander II----Vladimir---Kyrill---Vladimir---Maria---George

So according to MV's claim, she is a great-great granddaughter of Tsar Alexander II. If this is true, she is also a great-great niece of Tsar Alexander III and a third cousin of the descased Nicholas II and his siblings.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Jim_Wilhelm on May 15, 2006, 10:55:19 AM
Hi All:

I suppose this could have been posted under "Having Fun" but it does pertain directly to the IF so I don't think it's totally out of place here.

I'm interested in hearing from you about how YOU think members of the IF would have been officially introduced in English. I'm talking about a Royal Ball or an official function. Consider how it would go...

Nicholas II: "Ladies and Gentlemen...His Imperial Majesty Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias". No?  How would it go then? Would it have been simply "His Imperial Majesty"?  How then?

Alexandra: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all The Russias". No? How would it go then? Would "Her Imperial Majesty have been sufficient? What, then?

Nicholas and Alexandra together at the portico or at the top of a grand staircase: "Ladies and Gentlemen...Their Royal Highnesses Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias and Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all the Russias" No? Do I have Alexandra's patronymic wrong? How would it have gone then?

Olga: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Tatiana: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Marie: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Anastasia: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Alexei: Ladies and Gentlemen..."His Imperial Majesty Tsarevich Alexander Nicholaevich Romanov of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Please teach me how to properly introduce these individuals in English. Thank you for your time and attention. I hope we can all have fun with this. :)

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: frimousse on May 15, 2006, 06:14:12 PM
First: the IF was NEVER introduced ! But their people were introduced to them...it's quite a difference.

Second : They were never named after their family surname, Romanov, name which is largely widespread in Russia ( Romanov=means  the family of Roman, like Petrov means the family of Peter or Pavlov the family of Paul)

They were "only" for a Grand Duke for example His Imperial Highness Sergey Alexandrovich. Abroad he might be His Imperial Highness Sergey Alexandrovich of Russia, bur NEVER NEVER HIH Sergey Alexandrovich Romanov which would have sounded ridiculous and insulting. They were as individuals only dedicated to Russia that's all...

The Emperor was His Imperial Majesty Emperor Sovereign Nicholas II ( or Nicolas Alexandrovich) of All The Russias, Grand Duke of Finland, King of Poland and so on...on WRITTEN documents.
The word Tzar or Czar ( TSESAR, from latin Caesar) was not on official documents, but the word IMPERATOR ( from latin: Emperor) after Peter the Great.

He signed only by his Christian name : Nicholas ( Nikolaï) that's all...
So did the Grand Dukes and Grand Duchess, they signed: Mikhail, Maria, Olga, Wladimir, no name period...

Under official portraits and photographies or in books and newspapers it was added before the titles The August Family, The August Sovereign ( Gosudar) or The August Tzarevich ( Tsesarevich) etc...It was also the same for other Royal families in Europe.

Only the dynasty was associated with the name Romanov, not individuals.

All these rules were the same for any ruling Royal or Imperial family anywhere in Europe...unless members of these families had a special PERSONAL title such as Duke or Count of something or other traditions such as only MONSIEUR for the brother of the King in France. In Russia members of the Imperial Family didn't have any personal title, they were just Maria, Dimitri or Boris.

In France, the King entered in any room AFTER his people who had to wait for his arrival and to be in time BEFORE him, nobody could arrive after him or depart before him.
When he stepped in the room it was proclaimed: "Messieurs, le Roi !" and people had to wait untill the chamberlain allowed them to be introduced to him
Nobody was supposed to speak to him first .

It was the same for any Court in Europe.

Even now no one speaks first to the Queen of England and nobody is allowed to ask her a question. People are only supposed to REPLY with respect.

That was exactly the same at the Russian Court.

When you deal with official duties at this time, forget about the individual, only the rank was taken into account. So the matter was not to specify who the individual was, but to show only the function. (for Russian Emperors, their function was sent by God to only one person, the Emperor, who was given for that the Sacrement of the Holy Unction).
Same for other kingdoms.

That's why one talked about THE king or THE Emperor, and that's enough...
Forget about nowadays when one talks about President Bush, President Clinton or President Whosoever. It would have been ( I'm joking...) if the same rules were current today: THE President, period...

Hope it could help... ;)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Jim_Wilhelm on May 16, 2006, 10:38:55 AM
Dear Frimousse:

Wow! That was absolutely fantastic!  THANK YOU!  I've just learned more from reading that than I've learned in the past year. What a wonderful treatment of the subject. I know it's all very pretentious but that's what I'm interested in and I'm very grateful I have a place like this to come to and satisfy that curiosity. I never cease to be amazed at the massive intellect, profound insight, and sense of humor of those I encounter on this site. My profound respect and gratitude.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 17, 2006, 12:15:41 AM
Quote
Hi All:

I suppose this could have been posted under "Having Fun" but it does pertain directly to the IF so I don't think it's totally out of place here.

I'm interested in hearing from you about how YOU think members of the IF would have been officially introduced in English. I'm talking about a Royal Ball or an official function. Consider how it would go...

Nicholas II: "Ladies and Gentlemen...His Imperial Majesty Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias". No?  How would it go then? Would it have been simply "His Imperial Majesty"?  How then?

Alexandra: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all The Russias". No? How would it go then? Would "Her Imperial Majesty have been sufficient? What, then?

Nicholas and Alexandra together at the portico or at the top of a grand staircase: "Ladies and Gentlemen...Their Royal Highnesses Tsar Nicholas Alexandrovich Romanov the Second, Emperor of all The Russias and Tsarina Alexandra Feodorovna Romanova, Empress of all the Russias" No? Do I have Alexandra's patronymic wrong? How would it have gone then?

Olga: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Tatiana: "Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Marie: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Anastasia: Ladies and Gentlemen..."Her Imperial Majesty, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanova of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Alexei: Ladies and Gentlemen..."His Imperial Majesty Tsarevich Alexander Nicholaevich Romanov of Russia". No? How would it have gone then?

Please teach me how to properly introduce these individuals in English. Thank you for your time and attention. I hope we can all have fun with this. :)

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA

Nicholas and Alexandra were styled "Your Imperial Majesty".

Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses were styled "Your Imperial Highness".

I pretty much agree with what the previous poster said about not addressing the Emperor, not using the dynasty name as a surname, etc.

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Jim_Wilhelm on May 17, 2006, 04:08:06 PM
Thank you Lisa. I've heard you're in France now. Perhaps you and frimousse have met. I appreciate the input.

Respectfully,

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 17, 2006, 04:52:24 PM
Jim:

You must have me confused with someone else. I've never been to France. Please PM me so I can get this straightened out. After all, I have a company to run!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 17, 2006, 05:48:11 PM
I believe the Lisa that is in France, is actually this Lisa (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?action=viewprofile;username=Lisa)  :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Irina A on August 09, 2006, 05:48:33 AM
Could anyone please tell me why some members of the imperial family are called grand dukes (or grand princes) and some simply princes, as for example, the brothers of Irina Yussupova?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2006, 07:24:07 AM
According to an ukaze issued by Aleksander III, only the children of a tsar are grand dukes and grand duchesses. A tsar's grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and the eldest son of a tsar's great-grandchild are all princes and princesses of imperial blood.

Aleksander III changed the rules because there were so many grand dukes and duchesses that the imperial treasury would have gone broke paying all their allowances. According to Greg King's Court of the Last Tsar, grand dukes received 250,000 gold rubles annually, and grand duchesses got a dowry of 1 million gold rubles. Princes and princesses, on the other hand, received a one-time payment of 1 million gold rubles at birth. (That's $2.5 million and $10 million in 2005 currency.)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Irina A on August 10, 2006, 03:16:48 AM
Thank you, Sarushka. I appreciate the prompt reply.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Yoyo on August 10, 2006, 10:06:14 AM
Actually a tsar's grandchildren through the male line are also grand dukes and grand duchesses, for instance the children of GD Vladimir (Kyrill, Boris, Andrei and Elena) and those of GD Paul (Maria and Dmitri) were GD's as grandchildren of tsar Alex II. The children of GD Xenia on the other hand were only princes even though they were the grandchildren of Alex III because through their father GD Alexander Mikhailovich they were the great grandchildren of a tsar (Nicholas I)
Yoyo
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Ortino on August 10, 2006, 12:04:52 PM
Actually a tsar's grandchildren through the male line are also grand dukes and grand duchesses, for instance the children of GD Vladimir (Kyrill, Boris, Andrei and Elena) and those of GD Paul (Maria and Dmitri) were GD's as grandchildren of tsar Alex II. The children of GD Xenia on the other hand were only princes even though they were the grandchildren of Alex III because through their father GD Alexander Mikhailovich they were the great grandchildren of a tsar (Nicholas I)
Yoyo

That is correct too--the grandchildren through the male line of a reigning Emperor would also be Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses. Great grandchildren through the male line were known as princes of the Imperial blood. Though GD Vladimir's children would have had the title anyway since they were all born before the edict was issued.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Irina A on August 11, 2006, 05:14:53 AM
Thanks Yoyo,
I was wondering about that. It makes sense.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Prince_Lieven on August 30, 2006, 12:24:34 PM
Does anyone have any information on the role of a lady-in-waiting around the Victorian period? What exactly were her duties, if any? And how were the ladies picked? By rank only? Thanks!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: grandduchessella on August 30, 2006, 09:25:10 PM
Here's some info courtesy of wikipedia:

"A lady-in-waiting is a female personal assistant at a noble court, attending to a queen, a princess or other noblewoman. A lady-in-waiting is often a noblewoman of lower rank (i.e., a lesser noble) than the one she attends to, and is not considered a servant or other commoner. Their duties varied from monarchy to monarchy."

I guess the role, duties, status, etc...depends on the Court.

"In the Royal Household of the United Kingdom the term Lady-in-Waiting is used to describe a woman attending a female member of the Royal Family other than the Queen Regnant or Queen Consort. An attendant upon one of the latter is style Lady of the Bedchamber or Woman of the Bedchamber, and the senior Lady in Waiting is the Mistress of the Robes. The Women are in regular attendance, but the Mistress of the Robes and the Ladies of the Bedchamber are normally only required for ceremonial occasions. There were formerly other offices, including Maids of Honour."

I think that the role, in England anyway, sort of became family affairs with various members of a family serving the Court (in some way, even if not LIW) throughout generations.

Here's another interesting historical note regarding a LIW:

"The modern tea ritual’s roots lie with a subject of Queen Victoria. Anna, the 7th duchess of Bedford (1788-1861) was a lady in waiting to the Queen. She traveled extensively across Europe and was quite educated and worldly for her time. The wealthy noble’s of the day would eat a big breakfast, a small lunch, and a grand supper at nine in the evening. To counteract what Anna called a “sinking feeling” late in the afternoon she began asking her servants to bring tea with small cakes and pastries to her boudoir. This “snack” was cause for much speculation and interest in Queen Victoria’s court. Anna began sharing the small meal with her friends. She would send out invitations and receive the ladies in her dressing room. Victoria caught wind of the idea and quickly fell in love with it, so much so that a tradition was born. By the late 1840’s the Queen was having formal dress afternoon teas daily. These never lasted past 7pm because one needed ample time to change clothing in preparation for supper at 9pm."
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: grandduchessella on August 30, 2006, 09:34:53 PM
There's a book if anyone's interested:

Ladies in Waiting: From the Tudors to the Present Day by Anne Somerset
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kimberly on August 31, 2006, 02:21:08 AM
Yes, that book is a very interesting read. I can highly recommend it ;)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Prince_Christopher on September 04, 2006, 10:07:19 AM
From Life With Queen Victoria:  Marie Mallet's Leters from Court 1887-1901, edited by Victor Mallet, Marie states that when she was offered appointment of Maid of Honour, she had to reply to the following questions:

1.  Could she speak, read, and write French and German?
2.  Could she play the piano and read easily at sight in order to play duets with Princess Beatrice?
3.  Ride?
4.  Was she engaged or likely to become engaged to be married?

Marie later discovered that she had to trot behind the queen's pony cart.

As has been stated, ladies were often from generational families that served the crown.  Marie's uncle, The Hon. Alexander Yorke, was sort of court jester/theatrics arranger to the queen, and there were other members of her family in service as well.  Marie had a good reputation and was an intelligent and talented person and the queen stopped at nothing in order to get Marie into her service. 

It was a very grueling job....
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Labuanbajo on September 13, 2006, 08:38:13 PM
From "Once a Grand Duchess". a biography of Xenia Alexandrovna:


Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Labuanbajo on September 13, 2006, 08:42:20 PM
From "Once a Grand Duchess". a biography of Xenia Alexandrovna:

             It was also rumored that, to mark the tercentenary of the Romanov
             dynasty in 1913, Nicholas was planning to raise the eldest son of each
             Grand Duke from Prince to Grand Duke, a move that would have affected
             Xenia's son Andrusha, but nothing came of .... [the] idea.


Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 13, 2006, 09:12:56 PM
According to an ukaze issued by Aleksander III, only the children of a tsar are grand dukes and grand duchesses. A tsar's grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and the eldest son of a tsar's great-grandchild are all princes and princesses of imperial blood.


Please note my corrections to the above quote, this topic is much too complex to be explained with just a few lines:

The Family Statute of Alexander III of 2 July 1886 ammending the Pauline Law of Succession restricted the styles and titles of members of the Imperial Family in the following manner: children (male and female) and grandchildren (male and female) in the male line only of an Emperor were entitled to the style of Imperial Highness and the title of Grand Duke of Russia or Grand Duchess of Russia. The great- grandchildren (male and female) in the male line of an Emperor bore the style of Highness and the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood or Princess of the Imperial Blood. The eldest son of an Emperor's great grandson, as the head of a cadet line of the Imperial House held the style of Highness (as would his male primogenitor successor) and the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood, with all other great-great-grandchildren (male and female) in the male line of an Emperor having the style of Serene and the title of Prince of the Imperial Blood or Princess of the Imperial Blood.

David
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Katya23 on May 09, 2007, 01:24:07 PM
I am wondering about the noble families and the descendents of the Tsar....how would their titles go the farther from the Tsar you get for both men and women (ex: grand-daughters, nephews, etc) before Tsar Alexander III changed the use of titles.  Also, for non-members of the Imperial family, how would their titles be passed down and how would the children, grand-children, nephews, etc, be titles  (Princes/Princesses who were created so...)

I am not sure if that even makes any sense... I would appreciate any help or any point in the direction to a website that might have a list or tables or whatever.  Thanks!!!

Kat
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Katya23 on August 11, 2007, 05:10:03 PM
Does anyone know of a webiste (or simply have the knowledge) of what the terms of address would be for Grand Dukes/Duchesses, Imperial Princes/Princesses, and all other royals and titled people.   When I say terms of address, I mean this (an example from the british peerage):


Duke - His Grace/Your Grace/ My Lord Duke, etc.
Duchess - Her Grace/ Your Grace/ Madam

Marquess - Lord X/ My Lord Marquess/My Lord
Marchioness - Lady X/My Lady/ Madam


Something like this for all of the royals and simply titled people.  I just find all of the titles really interesting.  Thanks!!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: dmitri on August 11, 2007, 07:57:48 PM
Grand Dukes/Grand Duchesses - Your Imperial Highness, His/Her Imperial Highness
Russian Prince/Princess - Your Highness, His/Her Highness
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 12, 2007, 02:16:40 AM
Russian Prince/Princess - Your Highness, His/Her Highness
Only if junior members of the imperial family. Other princes/princesses (also counts/countesses) were addressed "Your illustriousness", serene princes/princesses  - "Your serenity".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Katya23 on August 12, 2007, 09:12:52 AM
What is the difference between a Prince/Princes who is titled Illustrious  and a Serene Prince/Princess?


Also, what happens to the women when they marry?  If they are a Princess and they marry someone who isn't a Prince, do they keep their title?  How would that work for Grand Duchesses as well?

Also, what about sons and daughters of princes/prncesses?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on August 12, 2007, 11:19:39 AM
What is the difference between a Prince/Princes who is titled Illustrious  and a Serene Prince/Princess?
A Serene Prince/Princess was considered a higher rank than a "plain" Prince/Princess. Sometimes a prince was promoted by the Emperor to the Serene rank.
Quote
Also, what happens to the women when they marry?  If they are a Princess and they marry someone who isn't a Prince, do they keep their title?  How would that work for Grand Duchesses as well?
After having married an untitled person, a princess or countess didn't keep her title.
Quote
Also, what about sons and daughters of princes/prncesses?
A prince's son was titled prince like his father, a daughter was titled knyazhna, i.e. "prince's daughter".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Katya23 on August 12, 2007, 03:52:49 PM
Quote
After having married an untitled person, a princess or countess didn't keep her title.

So, what about Grand Duchesses?  Would they lose their titles or would their husbands simply be elivated to a higher status?  If one OTMA had married simply a noble Prince, would they no longer be Her Imperial Highness?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Queen Victoria on March 08, 2008, 04:56:42 PM
I'm not entirely sure, but I think even the Grand Duchesses or "Grand Princesses" lose their title. Does anyone know of a Grand Duchess that married a commoner? Many of the Russian Imperial Princesses married morganatically and dropped their titles, and their children don't claim any either.

Rarely the Tsar bestowed a title upon the husband of an Imperial Princess.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 10, 2008, 09:28:44 PM
I'm not entirely sure, but I think even the Grand Duchesses or "Grand Princesses" lose their title. Does anyone know of a Grand Duchess that married a commoner? Many of the Russian Imperial Princesses married morganatically and dropped their titles, and their children don't claim any either.

Rarely the Tsar bestowed a title upon the husband of an Imperial Princess.

Olga Alexandrovna twice married men of lesser rank and in both cases retained her rank. The poster is correct that Emperors were not inclined to grant titles to husbands of grand duchesses who "married down". However, to my knowledge, these ladies did not lose their titles, although they could not pass anything down to their offspring title-wise without the help of the sovereign.

Thus it is my opinion that in the event that there was no revolution, had OTMA survived, and had one of them married down, they would most likely have retained their titles as did their aunt Olga, but their husband and children would have had the titles that children of the husband would normally have been entitled.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: DanlScott on April 18, 2008, 10:35:37 PM
I've seen quite a few posts claiming the title of tsar was abolished after 1921, but this is not correct.  Although the title of emperor was a a higher status, they still retained the title tsar (and grand duke).  Both titles were used, and contemporary Russians often refered to the sovereign as the tsar.  Alexander III and Nicholas II, both slavophiles, preferred the Russian title tsar over emperor. 

From wikepedia:  according to the article 59 of the Russian Constitution of April 23, 1906, "the full title of His Imperial Majesty is as follows: We, ------ by the grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, of Moscow, Kiev, Vladimir, Novgorod, Tsar of Kazan, Tsar of Astrakhan, Tsar of Poland, Tsar of Siberia, Tsar of Tauric Chersonesos, Tsar of Georgia, Lord of Pskov, and Grand Duke of Smolensk, Lithuania, Volhynia, Podolia, and Finland, Prince of Estonia, Livonia, Courland and Semigalia, Samogitia, Belostok, Karelia, Tver, Yugra, Perm, Vyatka, Bulgaria, and other territories; Lord and Grand Duke of Nizhni Novgorod, Sovereign of Chernigov, Ryazan, Polotsk, Rostov, Yaroslavl, Beloozero, Udoria, Obdoria, Kondia, Vitebsk, Mstislavl, and all northern territories; Sovereign of Iveria, Kartalinia, and the Kabardinian lands and Armenian territories - hereditary Lord and Ruler of the Circassians and Mountain Princes and others; Lord of Turkestan, Heir of Norway, Duke of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Oldenburg, and so forth, and so forth, and so forth."
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: BarefootContessa on June 21, 2008, 06:41:01 AM
Does anyone know of a webiste (or simply have the knowledge) of what the terms of address would be for Grand Dukes/Duchesses, Imperial Princes/Princesses, and all other royals and titled people.   When I say terms of address, I mean this (an example from the british peerage):

Something like this for all of the royals and simply titled people.  I just find all of the titles really interesting.  Thanks!!


I have a question similar to Katya's.  I realize a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess would address a lesser member of the aristocracy differently than her peers or even servants would.  For example, what about Daria de Beauharnais, Countess of Leuchtenburg?  How would a Grand Duchess address her when speaking with her?  Would it be appropriate (depending how close they were) to address her as Countess?

For example:
"Be careful, Countess.  I believe your stockings are showing."
"I was just telling the countess (capitalize?) that her stockings are showing."
"Dariya Yegvenievna, your stockings are showing."

And what would servants address her as?
"I beg your pardon, Highness (?), but your stockings are showing."


(Sorry I can't come up with a more creative example!)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 24, 2008, 01:00:44 AM
Does anyone know of a webiste (or simply have the knowledge) of what the terms of address would be for Grand Dukes/Duchesses, Imperial Princes/Princesses, and all other royals and titled people.   When I say terms of address, I mean this (an example from the british peerage):

Something like this for all of the royals and simply titled people.  I just find all of the titles really interesting.  Thanks!!


I have a question similar to Katya's.  I realize a Grand Duke or Grand Duchess would address a lesser member of the aristocracy differently than her peers or even servants would.  For example, what about Daria de Beauharnais, Countess of Leuchtenburg?  How would a Grand Duchess address her when speaking with her?  Would it be appropriate (depending how close they were) to address her as Countess?

For example:
"Be careful, Countess.  I believe your stockings are showing."
"I was just telling the countess (capitalize?) that her stockings are showing."
"Dariya Yegvenievna, your stockings are showing."

And what would servants address her as?
"I beg your pardon, Highness (?), but your stockings are showing."


(Sorry I can't come up with a more creative example!)

I hope this will answer your questions.

Beginning with the last, I think "I beg your pardon, Highness" or something like that would be appropriate for a servant addressing a noble. But, depending on the relationship, addressing the lady as "Dariya Yevgenianova" would also be correct, the use of the patronymic making the form of address much more formal.

How a grand duchess addressed her would depend on the age of the grand duchess (and Dariya's age too), the title of Dariya's husband at the time and whether or not they were in public. Royals other than the British are generally less formal in how they prefer to be addressed by family and friends in private.

So assuming the grand duchess would be say, Olga Nicholievna (and hence much younger than her cousin Dariya) and during the later's marriage to Prince Kotchoubey, ON might say,

"Be careful, Cousin (or Highness or Dariya Y.), I believe etc, etc,"
"I was just telling Her Highness (or my esteemed cousin, or Dariya Y) that blah blah blah"
"Dariya Y, (or dear cousin or Your Highness:, blah blah.

At no time would Dariya be addressed as "Countess". Countess is a title, not a style. Before marriage, she was known as Countess Dariya de Beauharnais. After marriages, by her husbands' title and style.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on June 24, 2008, 08:26:47 AM
Assuming that at the time she was married to Prince Kotchoubey, she would most probably be addressed "Princess" by somebody of an equal or a higher rank who was not a close personal friend or relative, like: "Would you excuse me, Princess, for friendly bringing your attention...". In Russian: "Вы не обидетесь, княгиня, если я обращу ваше внимание...". A close personal friend or female relative would apparently tell her just "Look Dolly, ...".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 24, 2008, 12:21:17 PM
Assuming that at the time she was married to Prince Kotchoubey, she would most probably be addressed "Princess" by somebody of an equal or a higher rank who was not a close personal friend or relative, like: "Would you excuse me, Princess, for friendly bringing your attention...". In Russian: "Вы не обидетесь, княгиня, если я обращу ваше внимание...". A close personal friend or female relative would apparently tell her just "Look Dolly, ...".

While I am given to understand that matters of address were somewhat different in Imperial Russia than in the rest of Europe, I was not aware they would extend to addressing someone by their title instead of their style. While married to the prince, she would have been addressed as 'Highness" or "Your Highness" or even "Your Excellency" - but "Princess" would not have been correct - Princess Kotchoubey would have been.

And, yes, when in the family (never in public) or with a friend, it would be "look Dolly", yes!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on June 24, 2008, 12:55:21 PM
Russian classic literature - Lermontov, Tolstoy, Turgenev etc. etc. - is full of frases like "You look so beautiful today, Countess" and "Would you, Princess, do me an honor by agreeing for a tour of waltz". Of course, such a form was used between socially equal persons - those socially lower would address a count/countess or prince/princess "Your illustriousness". There were also many subtle variations, but one would never say in Russian "May I, Princess Kotchoubey,...". By the way, they almost never spoke Russian in the high society - mostly French.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: BarefootContessa on June 24, 2008, 05:55:56 PM
Many thanks, Mike and Lisa, for both opinions! I find these kinds of things so fascinating-  and I never thought to look for examples in my copies of Turgenev or Tolstoy. 

I think English styles and titles are somewhat easier to undestand because there's no language barrier.  :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 25, 2008, 12:14:38 AM
Russian classic literature - Lermontov, Tolstoy, Turgenev etc. etc. - is full of frases like "You look so beautiful today, Countess" and "Would you, Princess, do me an honor by agreeing for a tour of waltz". Of course, such a form was used between socially equal persons - those socially lower would address a count/countess or prince/princess "Your illustriousness". There were also many subtle variations, but one would never say in Russian "May I, Princess Kotchoubey,...". By the way, they almost never spoke Russian in the high society - mostly French.

Either the Russians addressed one another by titles - or the classic writers (or their translators) had it wrong. I have an acquaintance who is the member of a royal house. While she would never say so directly to a person, if anyone calls her "Princess" I am given to understand that this is a name best reserved for a spoiled cat. It is quite acceptable to call her by her first name when not in public, but where others can hear, it's "Your -- Highness". Period.

Russians, I am given to understand would more usually call each other by their first name + patronymic.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on June 25, 2008, 03:46:25 AM
the classic writers (or their translators) had it wrong.
Nothing to say about translators - I read Russian literature in Russian which is actually my native tongue. But the assumption of aristocrat writers like Pushkin, Lermontov, Turgenev and Count Tolstoy having all erred on this issue of high society communication style and etiquette may only be perceived as a joke.

The example of a modern royal princess who expects to be addressed "Highness" is irrelevant. Russian princes and princesses weren't royals but titled nobles. Most of these princely titles belonged to Tatar, Georgian and other non-European gentry and weren't held in particularly high esteem. Many Russian princes were far from rich, e.g. Dostoevsky's Prince Myshkin. Shortly, being a "prince" in old Russia wasn't by itself such a big deal as in Europe.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 25, 2008, 04:39:02 PM
the classic writers (or their translators) had it wrong.
Nothing to say about translators - I read Russian literature in Russian which is actually my native tongue. But the assumption of aristocrat writers like Pushkin, Lermontov, Turgenev and Count Tolstoy having all erred on this issue of high society communication style and etiquette may only be perceived as a joke.

The example of a modern royal princess who expects to be addressed "Highness" is irrelevant. Russian princes and princesses weren't royals but titled nobles. Most of these princely titles belonged to Tatar, Georgian and other non-European gentry and weren't held in particularly high esteem. Many Russian princes were far from rich, e.g. Dostoevsky's Prince Myshkin. Shortly, being a "prince" in old Russia wasn't by itself such a big deal as in Europe.

As I said, it may very well be that people addressed one another with titles rather than styles in Imperial Russia. But the distinction between the two is very definite, and has nothing to do with what era one happens to live.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: BarefootContessa on July 05, 2008, 08:55:43 AM
I continue to be amazed at the wealth of information here on this board!

I have another semi-related question:  For noble women who became nuns, how would they be addressed?  For example, GDss Alexandra Petrovna, the wife of GD Nicholas Nikolayevich the Elder- when she became Sister Anastasia, how was she addressed? 

Thank you!

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on July 05, 2008, 01:15:30 PM
Orthodox nuns, irrespective of their former social status, are addressed Mother xxxx (in Russian e.g. Mat' Anastasiya) or Dear Mother (in Russian Matushka).
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: BarefootContessa on July 06, 2008, 04:23:19 AM
Thank you so much.  You've been so helpful!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Sarushka on January 18, 2009, 11:36:09 AM
Can someone please help me differentiate between the terms Naslednik and Tsesarevich?

My understanding is that naslednik means "heir" and tsesarevich is literally "son of the caesar/tsar" but it seems to me that they're sometimes used interchangeably, at least in reference to Aleksei. Yet I've noticed that many vintage Russian postcards featuring Aleksei's image use both terms. Does this have something to do with the fact that Nicholas II had only one son? What then is the technical difference between the two titles?

Apologies if this question has been addressed; there was once a forum member who went by "Naslednik" which makes it difficult to search for the relevant info...
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on January 18, 2009, 12:20:19 PM
Sarah,

The distinction, from what I understand, is the same as "heir apparent" and "heir presumptive". Tsetsarevich is "heir apparent" and "Naslednik" is "Heir Presumptive". 


Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: nena on January 18, 2009, 01:41:25 PM
I have to add that title Tsesarevich has source of Roman Emperor, G. Yullius Caesar.(means son of Tsar) And it means Heir, yes.

Naslednik means 'one who succeed' the throne. Also Heir.

IMO, we are talking about synonyms.

His title :....Naslednik Tseasrevich.....But in way "Son of Emperor, who will derive the Throne'.

IMO, both words means same things.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 18, 2009, 01:48:53 PM
Interesting. But, what if the heir is NOT the son of the Emperor, as in the cases of Alexander I's heirs and even  Nicholas II's  younger brothers, before Alexei was born? What were they called?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: nena on January 18, 2009, 01:56:55 PM
I think sons of Emperor are Tsesarevichs (son(s) of Emperor) but one is Naslednik(Heir), who will become Tsar one day.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on January 18, 2009, 02:18:17 PM
Both words are elements of the same title, established by Paul I in 1797:  Его Императорское Высочество Государь Наследник Цесаревич и Великий Князь - His Imperial Highness Sovereign Heir Tsesarevich and Grand Duke. With the only exception of GD Constantine Pavlovich, there were always only one tsesarevich at any given time, and the titles "Tsesarevich" and "Heir" were used intermittenly with exactly the same meaning. However, in Russian "Tsesarevich" sounds more formal and exclusive, since it coulkd be only applied to one particular person, while "heir" might relate to any successor, not necessarily royal.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on October 08, 2009, 06:08:51 AM
'Either the Russians addressed one another by titles - or the classic writers (or their translators) had it wrong. I have an acquaintance who is the member of a royal house. While she would never say so directly to a person, if anyone calls her "Princess" I am given to understand that this is a name best reserved for a spoiled cat. It is quite acceptable to call her by her first name when not in public, but where others can hear, it's "Your -- Highness". Period.'

In British usage a princess would never be addressed as 'Princess', though she would be referred to as 'Princess X' or 'the Princess'. Formally, it is 'Your Royal Highness' and, less formally, 'Ma'am.'

As far as Russian usage is concerned, I had better set my cards on the table. I am writing a novel set in 1916-17 of which the hero is a prince of ancient Rurikkid family. I have worked so far on the basis that those outside the immediate family circle call him 'Alexander Alexandrovich' and those rather more distant but still aristocratic whom he meets in society 'Prince Alexander Alexandrovich' or simply 'Prince'. He will also be referred to on occasions as 'Prince Surname'. He is a Captain in the Imperial Guard so, as I understand it, called 'your High Nobility' by subordinates in the military context. The servants will presumably refer to him as 'Prince Alexander Alexandrovich' but how will they address him?

The next question concerns married ladies, specifically widows. Is his widowed aunt 'Princess Vassili Surname' or 'Princess Maria Surname-a'? Is there a difference in usage between widows of princes and those whose husbands are still living? In traditional (and now old-fashioned) British usage, either a wife or widow is Mrs etc Husband's Name unless she has a more elevated title in her own right, hence Mrs Patrick Campbell, Lady Randolph Churchill, Princess Michael of Kent (the late Diana Princess of Wales was never 'Princess Diana'). However, an earl's daughter of my acquaintance who married a naval commander named Page is Lady Cecilia Page. Strictly speaking 'Mrs Christian Name Surname' is only owed by divorcees.

Thank you in advance for advice on this.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 09, 2010, 12:03:48 AM
As far as Russian usage is concerned, I had better set my cards on the table. I am writing a novel set in 1916-17 of which the hero is a prince of ancient Rurikkid family. I have worked so far on the basis that those outside the immediate family circle call him 'Alexander Alexandrovich' and those rather more distant but still aristocratic whom he meets in society 'Prince Alexander Alexandrovich' or simply 'Prince'. He will also be referred to on occasions as 'Prince Surname'. He is a Captain in the Imperial Guard so, as I understand it, called 'your High Nobility' by subordinates in the military context. The servants will presumably refer to him as 'Prince Alexander Alexandrovich' but how will they address him?

They will adress him as Ваше сиятельство or Ваше Свeтлость, depending on whether he is an ordinary, illustrious prince or a serene prince (probably the first, if he is of ancient Rurikid stock), is my impression from "War and Peace". From there I also get the impression that such noble styles trumped the mere service ranks lik "Your High-Nobleness", even in the military.

Hope this helps you with your novel! It would be interesting to see how you'd render these styles, which have perfect equivalents in German, but can be so cumbersome or misleading in English.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 09, 2010, 04:11:42 AM
Naslednik

Many thanks for your information. Unfortunately, my Russian is non-existent, so how do the forms of address you mention translate?

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 09, 2010, 10:39:27 AM
Many thanks for your information. Unfortunately, my Russian is non-existent, so how do the forms of address you mention translate?
Ваше сиятельство = Vashe siyatelstvo = Your Illustriousness (less accurately: Illustrious Highness) = German: Euer Erlaucht
Ваше Свeтлость = Vashe svetlost = Your Serenity or less accurately Your Serene Highness = German: Euer Durchlaucht

For a more in-depth discussion see http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/royal-forums/14-the-romanovs/3934-correct-form-of-address?limit=6&start=6 (http://www.unofficialroyalty.com/royal-forums/14-the-romanovs/3934-correct-form-of-address?limit=6&start=6).
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 09, 2010, 10:48:07 AM
Many thanks. I will try that.

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 10, 2010, 06:18:59 AM
That article was very helpful. I now have a vision of some poor soldier, faced with an officer he's never seen before, having to make an instant decision on whether this gentleman is an 'ordinary' Captain in the Guards and so 'your High Nobility' or in fact a Rurikkid prince and so 'your Illustriousness.'

One hopes that if Trooper Ivanov gets it wrong, the princely officer will not say 'Don't you know who I am?' and throw a hissy fit, but instead say something like, 'I am Prince So-and-So. In future you should call me your Illustriousness.'

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on January 10, 2010, 07:18:41 AM
Ваше сиятельство = Vashe siyatelstvo = Your Illustriousness (less accurately: Illustrious Highness)
It's not less accurate, it's just wrong. This form of address applies to princes (other than royal and serene) and counts, while Highness [Высочество] applies to royal and sovereign princes and dukes.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 10, 2010, 06:07:17 PM
Ваше сиятельство = Vashe siyatelstvo = Your Illustriousness (less accurately: Illustrious Highness)
It's not less accurate, it's just wrong. This form of address applies to princes (other than royal and serene) and counts, while Highness [Высочество] applies to royal and sovereign princes and dukes.
You are right, it's a most unfortunate and misleading translation sometimes used in English. I would recommend Kalafrana to translate it as Your Lordship/Ladyship or perhaps even Your Grace in an English-language novel.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 11, 2010, 04:04:06 AM
'Your Illustriousness' sounds splendidly archaic, as well as OTT, so I will use that.

Many thanks

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 19, 2010, 04:16:00 AM
Cards on the table once more.

The hero is a fictitious Dolgoruky. His aunt (nee Dolgorukaya) is the widow of a Golitsyn, and his cousin and best pal is also a Golitsyn.

Any traps there?

Regards

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 22, 2010, 02:26:18 AM
Cards on the table once more.

The hero is a fictitious Dolgoruky. His aunt (nee Dolgorukaya) is the widow of a Golitsyn, and his cousin and best pal is also a Golitsyn.

Any traps there?

I think they are all straightforward siyatelstvo, unless your Golitsyns are male-line descendants of the general Prince Dmitriy Vladimirovich Golitsyn from the Napoleonic Wars, who also was governor-general of Moscow for 25 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Golitsyn), and was raised from the rank of a mere prince to a serene prince for his services. Though he had only one son, Prince Boris Golitsyn.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 22, 2010, 03:32:55 AM
Thank you.

My Golitsyns are 'ordinary' Golitsyns.

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on January 30, 2010, 05:32:01 AM
One more for the experts among you! Or rather two!

My princes will obviously have cards and give them out from time to time. Will the card simply state 'Prince Alexander Dolgoruky', 'Prince Anton Golitsyn', or something more elaborate? And will they have coats or arms on?

When one of them is out visiting, the butler or whatever will presumably announce him as 'Prince Alexander Dolgoruky', but what if he is a more informal setting and needs to introduce himself? Will he say 'Prince Alexander Dolgoruky', or simply 'Alexander Dolgoruky', secure in the knowledge that any listener will know that any Dolgoruky is bound to be a prince? He is 25 and not particularly snobbish (as a Rurikkid prince he doesn't need to be!)

Ann

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 30, 2010, 09:42:24 AM
One more for the experts among you! Or rather two!

My princes will obviously have cards and give them out from time to time. Will the card simply state 'Prince Alexander Dolgoruky', 'Prince Anton Golitsyn', or something more elaborate? And will they have coats or arms on?
I am sure Mike can give a more comprehensive answer than I can, but it seems to me that titles were in quite widespread use on visiting cards. See this card of a Russian count for sale on e-Bay (http://cgi.ebay.nl/Romanov--Carte-de-visite-Compte-Modeste-de-Korff---_W0QQitemZ300380635631QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091225?IMSfp=TL091225193001r291)

I don't think it was usual to have coats of arms on private visiting cards. It would be very interesting to see more visiting cards of different types to compare.

Here is one of those chinovnik cards....
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c303/FredrikBergow/DIN-017.jpg)
.....which Donald Mackenzie Wallace wrote about in "Russia":

"Thus rank or tchin is a necessary condition for receiving an appointment, but it does not designate any actual office, and the names of the different ranks are extremely apt to mislead a foreigner.
We must always bear this in mind when we meet with those imposing titles which Russian tourists sometimes put on their visiting cards, such as "Conseiller de Cour," "Conseiller d'Etat," "Conseiller prive de S. M. l'Empereur de toutes les Russies." It would be uncharitable to suppose that these titles are used with the intention of misleading, but that they do sometimes mislead there cannot be the least doubt. I shall never forget the look of intense disgust which I once saw on the face of an American who had invited to dinner a "Conseiller de Cour," on the assumption that he would have a Court dignitary as his guest, and who casually discovered that the personage in question was simply an insignificant official in one of the public offices."


Speaking of putting titles on visiting cards. Imagine picking up this (apparantly genuine) card from your bowl when checking who has called on you:
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c303/FredrikBergow/visitenkarten.jpg)
Translates as:
Wilhelm
German Emperor and King of Prussia
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on January 30, 2010, 11:31:05 AM
Usually a Russian business card would mention the title (if any) and the full name, including patronimic. If a person was an officer, the name of his regiment appeared below the name. If he had a court rank, it also appeared on the card. No coats of arms were usually used. For example:

Князь Александр Владимирович Долгорукий
Л.-Гв. Семеновского полка
Флигель-адъютант Е.И.В.

In a language other than Russian the patronimic was usually omitted:

Prince Alexander Dolgoruky
of Life Guards Semenovsky Regiment
Aide-de-Camp of H.I.M.

When a titled person was announced by a butler or introduced to somebody by a third party, the title was always mentioned. However, when such a person introduced himself, especially to a lady, the title was customarily omitted.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: MarshallHowell on May 05, 2010, 01:53:47 PM
I read somewhere that the Imperial Children were sometimes jokingly referred to as "tsardines". Outside of the palace of course. :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 09, 2010, 05:22:40 PM
:-)

I have an acquaintance who is the member of a royal house. While she would never say so directly to a person, if anyone calls her "Princess" I am given to understand that this is a name best reserved for a spoiled cat. It is quite acceptable to call her by her first name when not in public, but where others can hear, it's "Your -- Highness". Period.

What about adressing the person in the third person with the title in the definite case, as in French "Puis-je offrir la princesse du thé ?"
This is how royals are adressed in Scandinavia in situations where the official styles of Your Majesty or Your (Royal) Highness would be to cumbersome or repetitive, i.e. cognate with English usage of "Ma'am" and "Sir". Or would it rather be "Puis-je offrir madame la princesse du thé ?"?

I now have a vision of some poor soldier, faced with an officer he's never seen before, having to make an instant decision on whether this gentleman is an 'ordinary' Captain in the Guards and so 'your High Nobility' or in fact a Rurikkid prince and so 'your Illustriousness.'

One hopes that if Trooper Ivanov gets it wrong, the princely officer will not say 'Don't you know who I am?' and throw a hissy fit, but instead say something like, 'I am Prince So-and-So. In future you should call me your Illustriousness.'

So is this a rule? Did the styles Светлость and Сиятельство always trump the adress of the service ranks, even Excellency? Were princes and counts who were generals thus invariably adressed as Your Illustriousness instead of Your Excellency, or as one thing on duty and another way off-duty?

What about barons? I gather that господин Барон, Mister Baron, was the official style for Russian barons, even though they often, out of societal nicety, were styled Ваше высокородие, Your Highbornness (the adress below Excellency in the Table of Ranks.) How were barons in the lower service ranks adressed?

And what about plain hereditary nobles without service ranks? Were they plain господин, or Your Nobleness (in the likely event they had gradutated from high school and thus enjoyed service rank XIV) or did they enjoy a higher courtesy honorific?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 09, 2010, 06:45:49 PM
Were Russian morganauts like the Counts and Countesses Osternburg, Zarnekau, Merenberg, Hohenfelsen etc. styled Сиятельство, just like Russian Counts, even though they were created by German sovereigns like the Grand Duke of Oldenburg, the Prince of Waldeck and Pyrmont and the Prince-Regent of Bavaria? (And thus probably actually technically held the lesser style of Hochgeboren, высокородие, like non-mediatized German counts.)


And of course there is this question, which recently popped up in Mandie's fan fiction story "Lizya & Georgie ~ Love, Power and Tragedy" in the Having Fun section:
NB the dramatis personæ are a young Russian grand duchess and a young Bavarian prince:
Quote
“Sie sprechen Deutsch, Herzogin (You speak German, Duchess)?” Georgie informally asked in his native tongue. (And a very stupid question too! - Tom added).
I understand that the "Duchess" in question is a Russian Grand Duchess? In that case she is Großfürstin (Grand Princess) in German. I think that to a certain extent social equals can adress each other with titles in German as in Russian, but in German I have a feeling this is restricted to lower titles like Gräfin, Countess, i.e. the ones where the titles usually is preferred to the more uncommon predicate. But I think it would be more usual to add, à la mode française, a Frau, or in the case of a young girl as here, Fräulein: "Sie sprechen Deutsch, Fräulein Großfürstin?" But I am not at all sure here - it is indeed a very interesting question: How did royals of equal age who didn't know each other intimately enough to use those well-known nicknames Ducky, Sandro, Vicky, Toria, Bertie, Nicky, Minny etc. really adress each other?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 10, 2010, 12:03:54 AM
*blushes red* never again using any other language besides English for my story for now on.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Mike on May 10, 2010, 01:16:40 AM
Were princes and counts who were generals thus invariably adressed as Your Illustriousness instead of Your Excellency, or as one thing on duty and another way off-duty? 
They were always addressed according to their title rather than the service rank - provided such title was known to the second party. This also applied to titled non-general officers, but not to titled military school cadets or soldiers ("volunteers" who did a year-long compulsory service, usually in privileged Guards regiments).
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What about barons?
Barons were addressed according to their service rank  - Your Excellency etc.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: JacksonPearce on December 29, 2012, 09:53:51 PM
Hi everyone--

Does anyone know what someone would be addressed as in the following circumstances?

A merchant addressing a wealthy woman? (essentially an Imperial Russia version of "ma'am" or "madame")
A female friend addressing a female friend of equal social status (the equivalent of "comrade" or just "friend")
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on December 30, 2012, 04:51:37 AM
A couple of suggestions here, not necessarily the only possibilities:

French was used a good deal in Imperial Russia, so the merchant could address the lady simply as Madame.

As I understand it, the given name alone is very intimate in Russian, and the name and patronymic are used much more generally, so two female friends of similar status would address one another as, say, Anna Arkadyevna and Daria Alexandrovna, and refer to mutual friends in the same fashion.

Ann 
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: JacksonPearce on December 30, 2012, 01:28:57 PM
Thank you! :)
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on October 19, 2013, 05:05:39 PM
Starshaya Dama (Mistress of the Robes)
старшая дама being a direct calque from Low German and Danish oldfrue, old / senior lady!

Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on November 17, 2013, 04:11:12 PM
As I said, it may very well be that people addressed one another with titles rather than styles in Imperial Russia. But the distinction between the two is very definite, and has nothing to do with what era one happens to live.

Rather it has all to do with social class: An episode of "Downton Abbey" (whose story editor, Lady Fellowes of West Stafford is a niece of the last Earl Kitchener and Lady-in-Waiting to HRH Princess Michael of Kent) brings this up: Tom Branson, the former driver and widower of Lady Sibyl Crawley, adresses a house guest, the Dowager Duchess of Yeovil, as "Your Grace", but is told by the Dowager Countess of Grantham that now, as her social equal, he should adress her simply as "Duchess".
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on July 28, 2014, 10:46:10 AM
Msge 242

Going back a long time, but nobody seems to have dealt with the final question - what would royal persons of similar age have called Nicholas etc if they didn't know them well enough to use their familiar names (Nicky etc)?

This is a bit of a guess, but how about 'Cousin Nicholas' to start with. Nicholas could then say, 'you're family, so please call me Nicky.'

Of course, there might be problems if the visitor was, say a Habsburg, and so not related, but doubtless things got sorted out.

The future Kaiser visited Russia in 1886, and Alexander III (his second cousin) was far from impressed with him. I wonder what he called Alexander  - uncle perhaps, though the age gap was only 14 years.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on July 28, 2014, 02:32:28 PM
Yes, unresolved question somebody hopefully knows the answer to!

For practical pruposes these people had no surnames and it seems quite rude for them to use each other's first names, unless it was a clearly senior royal adressing a younger one.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Maria Sisi on July 28, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
I read somewhere, I can't remember where, they always referred to each other as 'cousin' because as royalty they were part of that elite group and even if they weren't related by blood they still viewed each other as equals. Similar generations would call each other cousin while older generations were probably called aunt/uncle, again even if they weren't blood related.

But I might be confusing that with really old customs that were outdated by the time of Nicholas.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on July 28, 2014, 04:02:46 PM
I read somewhere, I can't remember where, they always referred to each other as 'cousin' because as royalty they were part of that elite group and even if they weren't related by blood they still viewed each other as equals. But I might be confusing that with really old customs that were outdated by the time of Nicholas.

You are right, at least with regard to writing. (And monarchs adressed each other as 'brother'.) Not sure if it applied orally too in the 19th century.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Maria Sisi on July 28, 2014, 04:07:11 PM
Of course reigning monarchs commanded enormous respect, even among royals, and were always adressed as "Your Majesty", Sire etc. by "royal strangers", perhaps except fellow monarchs, who adressed them as "dear brother", like in correspondence?

Not sure if Highnesses would adress each other as "Highness". Seems a bit artificial.

You responded before I got the chance to fully change my post. I realized it was kind of silly after I posted it.

As you said of course they always addressed each other with the respect of their positions. My current corrected post is probably closer to answering the question, sorry
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on July 28, 2014, 04:17:48 PM
All good :-)
I think our best bet to find an answer is in a roman courtois with lots of dialogue, written by an insider.

There are so many fine nuances and it's even more complicated when you take into account how multilingual these royals were. In German it's for example quite odd that the verb should agree in the plural (pluralis majestatis) with the predicates Majestät, Hoheit, Durchlaucht etc., e.g. Majestät lassen bitten..... And the use of Euer instead of Ihr!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Kalafrana on July 29, 2014, 04:11:47 AM
Gordon Brooke-Shepherd's biography of Karl of Austria-Hungary includes a letter he wrote to George V when he was trying to conclude a separate peace. It is in French and begins Majestie..

As it's a long time since I read the book, I can't remember how 'brotherly' the letter was, but Karl had represented the Empire at George V's coronation, so they had met previously.

Ann
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on September 23, 2014, 10:29:37 AM
So Countess Sophie Chotek was Grafin or Kontesse Sophie in German?

Legally and officially she was Gräfin Sophie Chotek, socially she was Komtesse / Komteß / Komtess Sophie Chotek. NB AFAIK the courtesy title Komtesse usually (only?) applied to the lower, non-immediate nobility. An Erlaucht / Illustrious Highness would usually be styled Gräfin.

In Polish this distinction seems quite ingrained and follows the pattern and suffixes that Polish surnames used to have: A hrabia (count) is married to a hrabina, their daughter is a hrabianka and their (young) son can even be called a hrabicz, analogous to tsar - tsaritsa - tsarevna - tsarevich.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: chintz22 on December 21, 2014, 03:35:22 PM
Hi,

Does anyone know if Marie of Edinburgh (later Queen Marie) would have received any Russian titles since her mother was a Grand Duchess? 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Forum Admin on December 21, 2014, 04:42:58 PM
She would have held the Russian title of  Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood as the Granddaughter of the Emperor in the female line, from birth. 
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on December 22, 2014, 05:20:02 AM
She would have held the Russian title of  Her Highness the Princess of the Imperial Blood as the Granddaughter of the Emperor in the female line, from birth.  

No Russian titles for her, titles did not descend via the female line. She born was Her Royal Highness Princess Marie of Edinburgh, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess of Saxony.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: rasshiva on January 05, 2016, 03:22:28 PM
I have a question. Praskovya Bruce (Countess) had been "best friend" to Catherine since the 14 year old latter arrived in St Petersburg . They would still be close until and for for many years after Catherine became Czarina. At least until Praskovya blotted her copybook with a putative Catherine "favourite" in the 1770s. My question is:- How would Countess Bruce have addressed Catherine in informal moments. Catherine called her "Brussja" so I am led to believe. This is not an idle question as I am trying to construct a dialogue between them.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on January 05, 2016, 04:07:03 PM
I have a question. Praskovya Bruce (Countess) had been "best friend" to Catherine since the 14 year old latter arrived in St Petersburg . They would still be close until and for for many years after Catherine became Czarina. At least until Praskovya blotted her copybook with a putative Catherine "favourite" in the 1770s. My question is:- How would Countess Bruce have addressed Catherine in informal moments. Catherine called her "Brussja" so I am led to believe. This is not an idle question as I am trying to construct a dialogue between them.

Interesting question. I don't have any sources to rely on (you might find something in their published letters?), but if they went back that long I wouldn't be surprised if she adressed Catherine with some of the many Russian pet form of her name (Katya, Katyusha etc.) in informal moments. Remember also that it was very fashionable for lovers and intimate acquintances to adress each other "my heart" / mon cœur etc. in the 17th and 18th centuries. But I would expect her to use more formal forms with other people present, perhaps madame? And in public as Your Majesty.

PS I see in a letter to her brother linked from her Russian Wikipedia article Countess Bruce refers to the Catherine as "Sa Majesté", so no overt informality even in her brother's presence.
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: rasshiva on January 06, 2016, 02:35:40 PM
Many thanks I like the idea about "pet" or diminutive or affectionate modes of address. I feel this informal mode was more likely at least one to one, or with close friends. Casualness does appear to have been encouraged by Catherine if one takes her "rules" or suggestions for acceptable behaviour at her gatherings in the Small Hermitage.
Title: Titles Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Joshuades on August 13, 2016, 09:03:43 PM
I removed all the taxes kept stuff. Now I wonder, what sorts of bonuses should we have for ranks/titles?
Title: Re: Titles, Ranks and Forms of Address
Post by: Превед on November 04, 2018, 11:15:20 AM
Apparently there is a book called "Что непонятно у классиков, или Энциклопедия русского быта XIX века" (What you don’t understand in the classics, or Encyclopedia of Russian daily life in the 19th century), published in 1998 by Yuri Fedosyuk, which could in come in hand for anyone researching the Romanovs and their world. Here is an excerpt (http://rus.1september.ru/article.php?ID=199901001) about forms of adress which is quite informative and translates well into English with Google Translate.