Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Nicholas II => Topic started by: rosieposie on May 11, 2006, 06:34:57 AM

Title: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: rosieposie on May 11, 2006, 06:34:57 AM
I had watched a program about the Turkish Genocide against the Armenians in 1915.  I was wondering was the Royal families aware of the Genocide?
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: David_Pritchard on May 11, 2006, 04:15:08 PM
Surely Nilolai II was informed of the massacre of Armenians by the Ottoman forces. There was in fact some Turkish territory captured by Russian troops in which evidence of the genocide was discovered. Those Armenians that were near the Russian lines and could cross over to safety of course brought first hand accounts of what happened to their families and villages to the Russian intelligence services.

The Imperial Russians had an interesting and strong relationship with the Armenians in that the Armenians often served as surrogate officials for the Russians in the non-Christian areas of the Caucaus Region and into Central Asia (that were seen as unattractive places for Russian bureaucrats to relocate). The oil and gas fields of present day Azerbaidjan was administered by Armenians and Russians while the majority population of Moslem Azeris worked in the oil, gasoline and kerosene refineries.

David
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Constantinople on March 21, 2010, 01:09:24 AM
Why would Nicholas be informed about the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman forces?  they were enemies.  If he knew it would have been through his allies or through newspapers that would have covered it.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 09, 2011, 02:44:21 PM
The Armenian genocide was know throught europe and was a major story in the US. The Turks had a long history of treating the Armenians badly there had been massacres before in 1894-96 and in 1909. I can savely say these stories were carried by the Russian press and Nicholas recieved reports about them. Alexandra also knew about them and no doubt was shocked about them. Olga during WW I who liked to read newspapers ect clearly red about them. Tatiana being head of "The Tatiana Committee for the Relief of War Victems" which helped care for soldiers widows and orphans as well as refuges. No doubt knew about them because Armenian refugees fled to Russian territory. These two probably discusses this in their bedroom and elsewhere. Foe more information go to wikipedia Armenian Genocide or read the book 'The Burning Tigris'
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 19, 2012, 08:11:36 PM
A world leader such as Tsar Nicholas II would, of course, have known of the Armenian massacres taking place.

The Russian Empire bordered on eastern Turkey, and the two powers were at war at the time.

George Ter-Markarian, the Armenian historian and publicist, wrote an account concerning this in Pravoslavnaya Rus', the church newspaper published by Holy Trinity Russian Orthodox Monastery, in Jordanville, NY. (No. 14, July 1968, pp. 6-7.)
It was part of a memorial article on the 50th anniversary of the murder of NII in Ekaterinburg.

Ter-Markarian relates that in the summer of 1915 crowds of exhausted Armenian refugees were massing on the Turkish-Russian border. For the most part, they were elderly people, women and children, and clergymen fleeing certain death. By personal order of Tsar Nicholas II the border was opened and the refugees were allowed to flee to the Russian side. There the troops guarding the border furnished them with what food and clothing they could. Then each refugee was given one silver ruble and a printed pass which allowed them to travel free on public transport anywhere in the Russian Empire for one year. They were to be allowed to take up residence wherever they wanted, and to practice the trade or craft of their choice.

Ter-Markarian estimates that all together more than 350,000 Armenians were saved by the Russians.

(Ter-Markarian was born in 1911 and came to the US in 1951. I do not have any further biographical information on him, other than the articles which appeared under his name in various other publications, such as Novoye Russkoye Slovo, in NYC, etc.)
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: RomanovMartyrs on January 20, 2012, 12:28:42 PM
Russia had a long-standing dislike of Turks due to the Ottoman Empire, way before Nicholas II. (Russian author Dostoevsky in the mid-1800s cites some atrocities done to the Bulgarians by the Turks- it was common for Russians to know Southern Slavs who'd escaped the Ottomans with stories to tell.) Perfectly reasonable to assume the Tsar was in some way aware.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 20, 2012, 02:58:20 PM
There is an alternative {Turkish} view that is was no "Armenian Genocide" .
 And, I doubt Nicholas II had much direct influence in those events. He was playing at being  military  commander of an inept army  focusing on the West, not so much on the South. He had already been beaten  in the East. One would think by  then [1915-1917] he would have had a clue that his was a failed leadership.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 20, 2012, 08:50:23 PM

Actually, the Russian Army was relatively successful on the Caucasian front during WW I.

And the Emperor himself had visited the Caucasus and Transcaucasia in Nov. - Dec. of 1914.

A military chronicle of that trip was published in 1915. (We happen to own a copy.)

"The Visit of H. I. M. to the Caucasus in November–December 1914."

«Пребывание Его Императорского Величества на Кавказе в ноябре-декабре 1914г.»

His route of travel: Ekaterinodar, Derbent, Baladzhari, Tiflis (Tbilisi), Kars, Sarikamish, Alexandropol, Elizavetpol, Vladikavkaz, Mineralnie Vody, Rostov-on-Don, Novocherkass.

His visit to Kars, and especially to Sarikamish, put him in the immediate vicinity of the Russo-Turkish border and the active theatre of war.

Sarikamish was soon to be a major battleground between the Russian and Turkish armies (Dec. 1914–Jan. 1915). A battle which the Russians won.

So it would seem that Tsar Nicholas II was sufficiently aware of events in that area.

My purpose in posting the first note was simply to report what Ter-Markarian had recorded. I am not a specialist on the history of WW I.

As for the undeniable fact of the Armenian genocide, perhaps this Forum is not the place to discuss that. There are plenty of sites devoted to the different sides of that issue.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: TimM on January 21, 2012, 12:03:29 AM
Quote
There is an alternative {Turkish} view that is was no "Armenian Genocide"

Yeah, and some still say there was no Holocaust, and if you believe that, I have this bridge in Brooklyn for sale.  At least Germany doesn't put people in jail for talking about the Holocaust.

Turkey, on the other hand, punishes people for talking about the Armenian Genocide, nearly a century later.  If there was no genocide, why punish people for talking about it.  Only the guilty cover up the crime.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 21, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
I did not say I agree with the Turkish position, just that there is one and it is different than the generally accepted version.
 In any case, I agree with Inok N. that this is not the appropriate forum  to discuss such a contentious issue.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: TimM on January 21, 2012, 06:25:26 PM
Quote
I did not say I agree with the Turkish position

I didn't mean to imply that you did, Robert.  Sorry about that.

Still, why won't Turkey come clean and admit what they did?   Surely anyone who was involved in organizing the genocide is long dead by now, so they can't be prosecuted.  Both Germany and Japan have come clean with the atrocities they committed during World War II, Cambodia came clean with the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, so why doesn't Turkey man up and stop trying to hide the truth about this crime?
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 21, 2012, 09:02:25 PM
Tim, I do not have the answer to that. Turkey is a very complex country with many conflicts.
 I will say, however, that your "sell a bridge" comment was childish and beneath you.
 In MY experience, in Istanbul, I had no problem discussing this issue with both Turks and Armenians. I do not know where you see such suppression. Have you been there ? If so, perhaps your experience is different than mine. I make it a point, In ail my studies, to listen to BOTH sides of a story.
 Genocide is a horrid  topic, but, as I see it, it does not apply to the Turk/Armenian experience. This is like putting oil on troubled waters though.
 Genocide is the elimination of a race, as Hitler aimed to do. To the Turks, this was a population movement to protect their borders. That doe not make it any less an offence, of course, but who wants to be  compared to the Holocaust ? Even Pol Pot was trying to eliminate a class, not a race [equally despicable, I am sure you agree].
 As I said to Inok. I did not wish to expand on this topic. It is complicated; and distasteful. There is already enough of that on this forum.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: TimM on January 21, 2012, 11:29:58 PM
I've stated my case, you've stated yours.  We agree to disagree and move on.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2012, 12:16:45 PM
Agreed, Tim
 I will once again though, state thatI have never said I agreed with the Turkish position.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Kalafrana on January 22, 2012, 12:17:41 PM
In my opinion, what is significant is not what you call the event, but what the event was in practical terms. I do not think we should get hung up on the word 'genocide'. The reality is that the Turks killed some 1 million Armenians, and a large number of other Armenians were forced to flee the country. The term I grew up with is 'the Armenian massacres', and I do not think there is any room for doubt that they happened.

We might also mention the Punjab massacres of 1947, which took place at the time of the partition of India. Estimates of the numbers killed (Sikhs by Muslims and Muslims by Sikhs) range from 250,000 to 2 million. No one talks of genocide, as far as I know, but it doesn't matter.

In both cases we are talking of murder on a huge scale, and that is what matters.

Ann  
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: RomanovMartyrs on January 22, 2012, 03:51:57 PM
Still, why won't Turkey come clean and admit what they did?   Surely anyone who was involved in organizing the genocide is long dead by now, so they can't be prosecuted.  Both Germany and Japan have come clean with the atrocities they committed during World War II, Cambodia came clean with the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, so why doesn't Turkey man up and stop trying to hide the truth about this crime?

There are plenty of genocides/massacres nations refuse to acknowledge or accept responsibility for. Just because the Holocaust is so widely known doesn't make it the precedent for how the perpetrators will react afterwards. All too often, people forget that there are plenty of other gigantic massacres aside from the plight of those in WWII, before and after that era. (Check out Srebrenica as viewed by Serbia, for instance.)

Anyway, if anything it's just the opposite: The events in Armenia set the precedent for the Holocaust; after all, Hitler did say something to the effect of, "We can get away with this, because no one remembers anymore what happened to the Armenians."

No one ever held Turkey responsible. Where were Turkey's Nuremburg Trials? Can we hold them responsible for something now, a century later, when no one bothered to then? Doubt it. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: TimM on January 22, 2012, 05:05:45 PM
Quote
Can we hold them responsible for something now, a century later, when no one bothered to then? Doubt it

I agree, considering that anyone who was actually involved in carryout out this crime is now long dead.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 23, 2012, 05:50:22 PM
The above mentioned book "The Burning Tigris" does mention Turkish officials being tried for killing Armenians shortly after WW I. Also note there were alot of reports in the European press in the last half of the 1800s about Turkish cruelty in the balkens towards Christians ect. No doubt young "NickY and young "Alicky' read or heard or read about them while growing up. As for the Young Turks AKA the Committee of union and Progress they raised more than a few eyebrows in pre 1914 Europe do to their criminal behavior. Nazis, Facists and Communists acted in a similair manner post WW I. Nicholas, Alexandra, and even thier daughter Olga read about them. No doubt like millions of other people in Europe they thought such a gang will never take power in their country!
 Among the witnesses to the Armenian genocide are US diplomats and missionaries (the US never decared war on the Ottoman empire during WW I), British POWs, and German and Austrian military personel, civilians, diplomats ect. i believe  General Erich Lundendorff discusses this in his memoirs which is on the net. There are Turks today who will tell you these massacres did happen but only off the record since if they say so in public they run the risk of be jailed for "insulting turkishness" or something like that.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 23, 2012, 06:40:27 PM
Nonsense. As I have said, I had no problem talking openly about this issue in Istanbul. And, I am no one special or "privileged" neither were the people I talked to. Just like everyone else, they have different views. Turks are not  ideological prisoners.  If discussed in public,  one gets wide  points of view. The only real offence  that I know of is to insult Ataturk, father of modern Turkey and that has nothing to do with the Armenians.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 28, 2012, 05:34:05 PM
You are right Robert my information was dated but in earlier years I understand this could and did happen. Or thats what i have read.
Title: Re: Armenian Genocide.....
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 28, 2012, 08:35:42 PM
I have no doubt about that James, but it was in the past.  It is just not the case now.
 AS it was here, one could not discuss Communism objectively, even though it was perfectly legal to do so, without being black listed, or worse. Every  country goes through these phases.