Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Their World and Culture => Topic started by: Sarai on April 20, 2004, 03:07:01 PM

Title: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories #1
Post by: Sarai on April 20, 2004, 03:07:01 PM
I was just thinking about the clothing that the girls wore in their childhoods. They were always dressed so beautifully and elegantly. Here are just some random thoughts about this subject. Firstly, I am interested in learning more about how making their clothes worked. I imagine that seamstresses must have gone to the palace to get measurements and then some prestigious firm would have made their clothing, using the highest quality materials. I recall reading about their little coats made of the softest goose down and also seeing a pretty pink summer dress for one of the girls (not specified who) in the N&A exhibition catalog book. Who was responsible for making their dresses? What materials were used and what styles were followed (i.e. did Alexandra follow her own classic taste or go along with whatever was en vogue at the time)? What was the cost for such children's clothing?

I know that their clothing followed a more or less seasonal schedule, wearing white flowing dresses in the summer, sailor suits in the autumn, warm coats in the winter, and white dresses with coloured sashes in the spring. I like that the Empress was frugal enough to have them use hand-me-downs, with dresses passed from oldest to youngest, and the hems adjusted as necessary. She seems to me to be so much more like a regular mother than an Empress by doing that. Heck, I know regular people nowadays who would not even do that.

Finally, I recall reading a caption under a photograph of the girls as small children that they were "too elegantly dressed to play." They always seem to be dressed exquisitely, though, so I wonder whether they were allowed to just play in their fine dresses or changed into something else. On the other hand, I do recall seeing pictures of them in simpler clothing such as cotton type dresses or simple long skirts and blouses that seemed more suitable for romping. There is a picture that comes to mind of Tatiana, Maria, and Anastasia laying in the dirt on some kind of makeshift swing, looking dishevelled and messy but loving it!  :D
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Thomas_A. on April 20, 2004, 05:02:54 PM
Many upper-class people thought that Alexandra had no taste ar all. She dressed how she liked to - how she felt comfortable and although her dresses were made by the most famous designers of the days she did not even care for the "last trend".
For each season she ordered about 50 dresses from Paquin or Worth in Paris (Nicholas payed about 10.000 rubel each month!).
She loved silk dresses in white, violett or creme and big hats from Bertrand in Petersburg. Her socks were from Swears and Wells in London.
Her prefered designer was Madame Brissac in Petersburg who also made dresses for the Grand Duchesses. (From Greg Kings "Alexandra" and E. Heresch's "Alexandra")

I suppose the girl's dresses were made or silk, muslin and maybe brocade like Alix'. You may be right with cotton for the more simple spare-time-dresses.

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: BobAtchison on April 20, 2004, 05:43:13 PM
Thomas:

We should be careful what might have originated in "My Empress", that phony book about Alix whose 'facts' have wormed their way into later author's accounts.

Nicholas did not receive bills for Alix's dresses.  They were paid out of her personal accounts. The total budget for the clothes of the Empress and her daughters was 40,000 roubles per year.

Bob
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Thomas_A. on April 21, 2004, 04:25:49 AM
Bob. Sorry but these information are from Greg King's book and the one of Elisabeth Heresch which was - as far as I know - never published in english.

I don't know a book with the title "My Empress". By whom is it?
If my entry should upset anybody anyway, I'll delate it of course.
Just tell me!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 21, 2004, 07:59:05 AM
Hi Sarai,

I wonder can anyone here read Russian, and translate it? Because in the nice book on "Toys for the Tsar's Children" there are numerous items of the children's clothing, with descriptions written underneath them, in Russian. The passages could be also a little help with your question! The clothes include, Alexei's dressing gown, various little undergarments, coats, lace ruffs, and dresses belonging to the girls.

Elisa :)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: BobAtchison on April 21, 2004, 09:27:23 AM
"My Empress" was a fake book claimed to have been written by a 'Marfa Mouchanov' (sp) - it is full of lots of details about daily life that weren't true and combined with 'facts' one coulld gleen from newspaper and magazine articles.  This book was assumed to be true for many years and it was used as a resource by other authors.  The latest to fall for the book was Caroly Erickson and her research staff who use "My Empress" extensively in her recent book on Alexandra.

Bob
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: BobAtchison on April 21, 2004, 09:29:20 AM
I am assuming that most or all the baby clothes came from Alexandra's 'Hope Chest" in the Pallisander Room where she kept many of her keepsakes, baby shoes, gowns, etc.  They were at Pavlovsk last time I was there.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 21, 2004, 11:22:11 AM
From what I've read on this website, I believe I'm in the minority in liking Carolly Erickson's writing style.  For me, her books are lively, well-written, and read like novels. And until her bio of Alix, I've always felt they were well-researched. However, in using the so-called "Marfa" as one of her major sources, I think Erickson made a major mistake. Considering that most Romanov biographers have cut a wide swath around "My Empress," I have to wonder why Erickson leaned so heavily on that book.  Maybe she thought she was on to something no one else had discovered?!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sergio on October 01, 2004, 09:24:50 AM
Sarai,

At the "Historical Boy`s Clothing" website you can find Royalty Pages - a review of children's clothing styles worn by European royal families, including Russia: http://histclo.hispeed.com/royal.html.

But to access those pages you have to pay a small contribution.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Olga on October 02, 2004, 02:03:33 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/Praskovia/dresses/ENK0_23OTDGWP606UV6.jpg)

I imagine they would be (left to right)

Maria Nikolaevna
Anastasia Nikolaevna
Olga Nikolaevna
Tatiana Nikolaevna
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Olga on October 02, 2004, 02:09:08 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/Praskovia/dresses/TN.jpg)

Baby pants of Tatiana Nikolaevna
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Olga on October 02, 2004, 02:12:11 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/Praskovia/dresses/MN.jpg)

Baby pants of Maria Nikolaevna
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on October 02, 2004, 07:34:45 AM
GREAT GREAT GREAT , Olga!!!
Thanks you! I love the little pants... ;D
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on October 02, 2004, 07:54:33 AM
Those little dresses are exquisite.  Am I right in thinking that they are of fine muslin worn over little coloured slips?
The quality of the work in these garments is exquisite; lovely tucking and insertions and very nice broderie anglaise.
Were these dresses for everyday use?  They really make one regret the simplicity of modern clothes; having said that it must have been something of a chore having to iron them, not that Alix would have had to worry about that......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: lilavanderhorn on October 02, 2004, 08:11:16 AM
I can imagine that Tatiana is looking at all of this now and is humiliated at her undies being on display on the internet!   ;D


As for the clothing, I love it.  I am a vintage clothing collector myself and I cannot imagine anyone having the patience and creativity they had back them to create these beautiful outfits.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on October 02, 2004, 08:18:00 AM
Quite so.  The amount of vintage clothing still available to buy that has astonishing workmanship is quite surprising.
Being in the business (sort of) I am constantly amazed by the amount of work that the late 19th and early 20th century garments display, particularly with underclothes and linen.
Labour must have been terribly cheap (well we know that it was) as the amount of tucking and pleating, trimming and embroidery that one finds on chemises and petticoats is impressive.  Trying to recreate these garments now is so expensive that I have to buy originals to use for the stage, as it is much cheaper.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarai on October 02, 2004, 03:08:13 PM
Olga,
Thank you for posting those pictures! Did you get them from the Historical Boy's Clothing website?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: nerdycool on October 02, 2004, 08:42:37 PM
I think those photos came from the Hermitage's digital collection at http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/ . There are a number of costumes there that are from the Imperial family... mostly from Alexandra's early years in Russia. Some are also from the Yussopov collections. It also says that the four dresses of the Grand Duchesses shown above are underdresses. They are beautiful aren't they?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Merrique on October 02, 2004, 08:57:22 PM
I just love this old clothing and the amazing detail that was put into these garments.

I was fortunate enough to receive a 1920's baby dress from my uncle as a gift for the birth of my first daughter.It is absolutely exquisite looking.The detail of the lace and things on it is incredible.It kind of resembles the little dresses of OTMA in the picture that Olga posted.But the dress I have doesn't have all the lacey ruffles that these dresses have.It's such a same clothing like this isn't made anymore.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Olga on October 02, 2004, 11:02:34 PM
I got them from the Hermitage website.  :)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Angie_H on November 24, 2004, 12:11:09 PM
I was bored this past weekend so I popped in my "Nicholas & Alexandra" movie. I love looking at the costumes. I noticed something during the scene celebrating MF's birthday. The women were at dinner, had their gloves on, but the hand part of the glove was kinda pulled back, (I've seen gloves worn the same way in the move "The Age of Innocence"). Were the hand part of the gloves flaps or something that could be pulled on and off for eating and such?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Val289 on November 24, 2004, 01:16:52 PM
Angie_H - I found the following info on a website -  http://www.operagloves.com/history.html  - which seems to explain the question you asked:

"In the Victorian and Edwardian periods, it was considered absolutely essential for a lady or gentleman to keep their gloves on at all times, even when bathing, and kid gloves were supposed to be skintight to a degree that would impress a modern-day fetishist. In fact, gloves in the Victorian period were so skintight that ladies were unable to button their mousquetaires without assistance, hence the invention of the buttonhook! It was, in fact, considered improperly alluring for women to put on or entirely remove opera-length gloves in public, and several etiquette writers of the time advised women to put on their long gloves at home before venturing outdoors. The button- or snap-fastened wrist opening which is the characteristic feature of the mousquetaire was put to very good use in this respect by many ladies of the period, who would slip their hands out through the opening to eat or drink while keeping the glove itself on."

Hope this helps ;)


Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Janet_W. on November 24, 2004, 01:49:50 PM
This is a great and unexpected topic. Wearing gloves even while bathing, though?!  ::)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Louise on November 24, 2004, 02:05:07 PM
WOW, the things ya learn. That is neat.

Louise
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Michelle on November 24, 2004, 04:45:07 PM
Did OTMA ever wear any really long gloves?  Are there any photos of them wearing these gloves?  I just think they are such a nice touch to enhance one's beauty and femininity.  Let's post pictures of the girls in these gloves since you don't really see many photos of them with fancy gloves on.  I'll start with the picture of Olga and Tatiana in their regimental uniforms (I'm pretty sure they were wearing gloves).

(http://www.livadia.org/olishka/images/otuniform.jpg)


And one of Olga on horseback:
(http://www.livadia.org/olishka/images/olgahorse.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Angie_H on November 24, 2004, 05:49:57 PM
Did they wear elbow length gloves with court dress? They're not wearing them in this pic
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1098270336

But in the Nicholas & Alexandra movie they had MF, Alix and other ladies wearing them
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 24, 2004, 06:41:19 PM
I would think it de rigeur to wear the gloves  while in court dress- for a court function, but perhaps not for a photograph.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on November 26, 2004, 07:47:22 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/3.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Angie_H on November 27, 2004, 07:29:35 AM
In these pics you can see Alix wearing one glove
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/AlexandraFyodorovnatsarinaofAlltheRussias2.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/AlexandraFyodorovnathetsarinaofAlltheRussias.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Merrique on November 27, 2004, 05:25:36 PM
You just gotta love those elbow lenght gloves.They look so elegant.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Annushka on November 27, 2004, 05:30:59 PM
But, what is up with wearing one glove?  That looks a bit odd.

Holly

Edited on 04/22/2009 by Alixz - The right hand glove would have been removed for photos to show whether or not the woman was married.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 27, 2004, 05:38:43 PM
It may look odd, but there is a reason, besides posing. It frees the utile hand for the work, i.e. holding a glass, showing off the rings, to be kissed, playing with the fan. White gloves are notoriously easy to soil, a hand just needs to be wiped clean.
I pity the left handed ones ! [but in those days, I think most lefties were forced to right-handedness]
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sergio on November 27, 2004, 05:41:45 PM



Many years ago I listened on TV that in XIX century women used elbow length gloves because the elbow was considered an ugly part of the body and needed to be covered.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Michelle on November 27, 2004, 05:51:00 PM
Are there any pics of OTMA wearing elbow length gloves?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: QueenNazil on December 30, 2004, 03:24:02 PM
Hiya again ;D, I LOVE the Russian Court Dresses of the Imperial Family, and i read that the dresses were coloured with the womans Rank, does anyone know these colours and ranks? and different colours of their sashes? plus has anyone got pictures of ladys wearing them, i love the way they hang and how regal they look thanx xxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RomanovFan on December 30, 2004, 11:47:54 PM
Well, I'm not so sure about the women's dresses themselves being different colors standing for different ranks, but I do know that the Imperial Royals wore a blue sash around their torsos, men included.  If they were a Romanov family member, it was light blue, if a friend or someone else close to the family that was of high status (i.e.: Pierre Gilliard, Dr. Botkin, ect.) the sash was red. For the women in particular, if they were unmarried, like the grand duchesses, they wore a red bow on their left shoulder along with the sash. I think the dresses that you traditionally see the grand duchesses in (such as ones with the "flaps" instead of sleeves with a crown and a bow holding their hair back) were typical court dress for a Tsar's daughter. The hem of the dress became longer as they got older. Alexandra's court dresses usually included gloves and a fan with a traditional crown to match the dress, but I don't think she wore a dress of a specific color because of her status.... I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Olga on December 31, 2004, 12:49:52 AM
Quote
If they were a Romanov family member, it was light blue, if a friend or someone else close to the family that was of high status (i.e.: Pierre Gilliard, Dr. Botkin, ect.) the sash was red.


The blue sash was the Order of St Andrei. The red was the Order of St Ekaterina. The Order of St Ekaterina was for women only. You weren't awarded it for being close to the family. Botkin was awarded the Order of St Anna for, presumably, his service to the Tsar.

Quote
a traditional crown


A Kokoshnik?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on January 11, 2005, 04:59:02 PM
Quote
Actually, the design was fairly common and it seems to me that HIH  received one such as a wedding gift.  Certainly, the only time that most of the Grand Duchess's wore the large necklace from the Imperial Treasury was as part of their wedding regalia.

This one is somewhat smaller.


It is quite possible that the design was 'fairly common' but I imagine that the size of the stones was not.  May I ask how you know that MF received such a piece of jewellery on her marriage.  It certainly didn't leave Russia with her......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on January 11, 2005, 05:01:19 PM
I think that Angie may have a point.  If this necklace belonged to Dagmar and is not the necklace that was used as part of the wedding regalia, there may be a record of it amongst the jewels that she left behind in Russia.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 12, 2005, 05:20:51 PM
why are the pearls articifical? Shouldn't they be real if they were made fo the IF??
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on February 27, 2005, 01:26:27 AM
The painting was painted of the dance at the Assembly Hall of the Nobility in 1913...not for Olga's 16th birthday dance which was at Livadia in 1911.  I read something somewhere where Olga wore a pink chiffon dress with a silver ribbon in her hair for the 1913 dance in the painting...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Genevieve on February 27, 2005, 11:55:06 PM
The  gowns were enough to get you  tired.   I always
wondered how they danced in corsets.  That must have
made breathing difficult.  
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: cimbrio on February 28, 2005, 05:11:48 AM
Well thank God they used fake pearls, at least in that sense they were sensible about something like that. It must have been agonizing for women and men to dance with such ornate clothes and compliments and decorations on them, I'd like to be the one to keep the things that had fallen off from their clothes after a ball (plumes, pearls -fake or pukkah-, diamonds, I suppose a ring might be in order ;) ....
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: hikaru on February 28, 2005, 06:25:10 AM
Practice, Practice and Practice again.

How could the knights wear the 50kg iron armours?
Ladies in 18th ciecle were in more difficult position: their jupes reached 6 meters sometimes. They could not
ever kiss with their amants during the parties without great efforts.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Winter_Phoenix on February 28, 2005, 07:37:14 PM
Yes, practice-practice-practice -- and also the weight is distributed over the body.  You get used to it.  As for corsets -- they are the most wonderful support, and yes, you can do rather athletic stuff in them.  (We're not talking insane tight-lacing here.)  Having worn corsets and long heavy dresses (SCA), I can guarantee you CAN dance in them, and quite vigorously, too.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Annie on February 28, 2005, 08:08:46 PM
Quote
Practice, Practice and Practice again.

How could the knights wear the 50kg iron armours?
Ladies in 18th ciecle were in more difficult position: their jupes reached 6 meters sometimes.


This reminds me of when we toured Boone Hall plantation and the guide pointed out that the doors of the mens' studies and gambling areas were very narrow- so that no women (who in those days wore the large hoop skirts) couldn't have fit through!  :o Of course, I suppose if they didn't have any dress on they didn't mind ;)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on March 01, 2005, 12:31:52 PM
Lol, nice Annie#2! hehe
That's funny i also went to a historic village like that,and they had an original hoopskirt hanging on the wall, and it took up the entire space!  :o
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Arleen on March 01, 2005, 12:57:13 PM
Sorry off subject but:  Boone Hall in Charleston??  That is to my way of feeling is the lovliest town in the South. (even tho I lived in Savannah for a while) I have often dreamed of JUST ONCE going to a real ball with one of THOSE dresses on and dancing the night away.  Like Marie the Dowager Empress wrote in her diary..."I danced and danced and just gave myself up to it" when she was in her late 40ties.          ..Arleen
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: hikaru on March 01, 2005, 01:14:33 PM
When I went to the real ball , all of us realized at that moment  that our dresses and jewels are OK but nobody can dance waltz etc. So the dancing place was empty. It was real tragedy!
(It was New Year Eve in Mariinsky)
I recommend all of you , if you have chance to do it ( it is not so expensive) please come to Petersburg and go to the ball in Mariinsky Theater or Yusupov Palace on New Year Eve.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ashanti01 on April 07, 2005, 10:06:04 AM
Thank you for the beautiful photos. Indeed, many of these I had never seen such as the one with Victoria Melita.

Please post any other photos you may have.

Here is a question: I noticed some families that made up the Russian Court weared these gowns for "official" purposes but did they wear them for weddings too?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: PucknDC on April 13, 2005, 07:58:51 AM
 ::) Can you just imagine walking into a ballroom with a sea of these dresses under candle light????? it must have been breathtaking, and any pictures we have probably don't compare toi actually seeing it!! I guess this is just one more example of why we all find pre-revolutionary Russia so fascinating....completely unique!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: lostfan on May 10, 2005, 07:03:07 PM
I was going to put this in the Alexei thread, but I think it might refer to the Imperial Family on a whole. I was watching the Lost Prince and I noticed the little boy who played Young Alexei wore the type of sailor suit I usually connected with the British royal family's children (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/queenscover/royalty/GDA.jpg). In all the photos I've seen of Alexei wearing a sailor suit, his is usually a different style (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v377/queenscover/royalty/nicky_alexei1912.gif)

I was looking through photos of Sandro and Xenia's sons and I noticed that they sometimes wore the "British" style sailor suits, and other times wore the "Russian" style. I've also seen a picture with Marie Feodorovna and her children where Nicholas and George wear the "Russian" style, while Michael is wearing the "British" style. Did the Russian Navy have two different types of sailor suit, or was it a fashion thing, or is there some other reason?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on May 10, 2005, 07:31:36 PM
I read on this one website that it was more of an english or german style, and not as much about russian, and that Alexandra had him wear them. I was also wondering this, so I'm glad you brought it up. I was also wondering, did he like them? I imagine he was a bit neutral, but does anyone know for sure?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 10, 2005, 09:52:24 PM
 I don't know what to think about it, for sailor suits were common all over the West World in those times. I live in Argentina, and my grandpa and great-grandpa, all two of them appears in old family snapshots wearing them. In the 1880-1940's years, however, high and middle class Argentine people, used to wear english-type clothes. Perhaps, sailors suit are an England outfit.Nevertheless, I saw many French boys photos where they were wearing sailors suits. This is true also for German boys.

  And you may notice this in the girls, too. Sailor suits are common to them too, but only with skirts inestead of trousers.

             RealAnastasia
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: etonexile on May 10, 2005, 09:53:16 PM
I think it was about the tastes of upper class mothers and nannies....I have some super pics of a great uncle wearing an Italian sailor suit in the early 20th century....He was also dressed in kilts when they traveled to Scotland....
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: nerdycool on May 11, 2005, 10:54:33 AM
It was fashionable back then, as well as functional. Functional because they were dressy and classy enough to be photographed in, and sturdy enough to be used as play clothes. As for the styles, I think for royals, it was more of a replication of their navy as to what style of suit they wore. For instance, there are pictures of OTMAA in sailor suits that have ties/sashes about the neck, and there are other pics of them wearing sailors suits without them (especially Alexei). I'm not totally sure, but I think the children generally wore what the sailors wore when on the Standart, and I think the ones with the sashes were considered dressier than the ones without (you wouldn't want that sash getting in your way while you try to do your job).

I had a random question that actually fits quite perfectly here re: sailor suits. How old were the girls when they stopped wearing them? I noticed that once Olga and Tatiana stopped wearing them, Maria and Anastasia did too...probably so they could still dress alike. I think the last pic I saw of one of the girls wearing one was of Tatiana when she was about 12-13. I'm not sure if they wore them after that since they weren't photographed.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Annie on May 11, 2005, 10:58:24 AM
I've always noticed that most any kid in latter Victorian-Edwardian times wore those, even kids of average means in the US.

From what I've seen of the royals in dated pics, the kids wore them up until age 16, when they got 'real' clothes.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 11, 2005, 12:10:51 PM
Annie es right. 16 years old was the age where children were not children any more to become young men and young woman. It was the age for girls to start being part of the society, and to attend balls, social parties, etc...

  OTMA wore sailor suits in the "Standart", yes, but I noticed that Alexis wore also in Livadia and Tsarkoe Selo.

   And yes; average children wore sailor suits back then. I have photographies of my relatives (both, girls and boys) wearing them in the 1920-1930 and 1940's.

       Real Anatasia.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Daniel Briere on May 12, 2005, 12:05:39 AM
Quote
Did the Russian Navy have two different types of sailor suit, or was it a fashion thing, or is there some other reason?


No, the Russian Navy didn’t have two different types of sailor suit. All sailors wore a dark blue middy blouse in winter and a white one in summer, but both had the same pattern (without a tie like the British). Uniforms for the Guards’ Equipage (which included crews of the imperial yachts) were slightly different than the « regular » Navy, but they basically looked alike.

Technically, no one was allowed to wear a Navy (or Army) uniform without being formally enrolled in a Navy crew or a regiment. But there seems to have been some exceptions for young members of the Imperial Family… as I have seen photos of young Michael Alexandrovich, Boris & André Vladimirovich wearing a uniform from the Naval Guards Equipage (which provided crews for the Imperial yachts).

Some young grand dukes were enrolled in the Guards Equipage at a very young age though, and were legally entitled to wear its uniform. For instance, Emperor Nicholas II was enrolled in the Guards Equipage at birth. George never was but he did actual service in the Navy, so I guess the picture you are refering to is from that time. Tsarevich Alexis was enrolled in the Guard Equipage on the day he was baptised and did wear their uniform from a very young age. I don’t recall having seen him in a « British » style uniform.

As for Sandro & Xenia’s sons, none of them were enrolled in the Navy (or Army) as young children (as they weren’t grand dukes but only princes of the Imperial Blood). But the older boys – if not all of them – were later enrolled in the Naval Cadet School, whose uniform looks pretty much like the Navy one, and some Mikhailovichi can indeed be seen on photos wearing it. Then again…the exception seems to apply, as I have seen a photo showing Feodor & André in their official Naval Cadet School uniform, Dimitri, Rostislav & Vassili in a « British-style » uniform...but young Nikita in a Russian Navy uniform (with a cap from the « Tamara » on which his father once served). So…go figure!

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 22, 2005, 06:38:58 PM
does anyone have any good pictures of the little dresses that the children wore when they were younger? ???
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 22, 2005, 06:48:06 PM
I have seen a few on the web and some in my books, i'll post them later. i'm busy working on a paper.sorry.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 24, 2005, 12:10:37 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/otma_summer_dress_01.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/hist.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 24, 2005, 12:14:24 PM
the dress on the left is the same wore by Olga or Tatiana  in this photo (1908 ):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/otma1900srussie.jpg)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/22.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 24, 2005, 12:18:12 PM
Certainly wore by OTMA because it's coming from the Alexander Palace in 1917:by BRISAC, 1910's
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/BRISAC1910stsarskoies.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 24, 2005, 12:26:13 PM
for OT's uniforms:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=tatiana;action=display;num=1102891132;start=94#94

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=tatiana;action=display;num=1102890348

OTMA's court dresses and crowns:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1109381766;start=1#1

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1082431603

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1104441842

and the best at the end

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1094161745

and as nurse:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1083091169
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Katia on May 24, 2005, 01:07:22 PM
Wow, beautiful dresses! Thanks for sharing! It's especially nice to see the dresses which OTMA used as kids, I've always imagined they were all white, but now I can see the different colors. Maybe the big pair wore same color, and the little one same?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on May 24, 2005, 02:04:45 PM
i read that each girl had a different colour or cut to their clothes
selina                xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: La_Mashka on May 24, 2005, 02:22:46 PM
I also always thought the four were dressed in the same colour, and well, from the pics I thought it was white!

What a mistake!!!

Thank you for sharing those pictures!


And Lisa, those links are FANTASTIC!!!  to see those court dresses in colour!  WOW!!!!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on May 24, 2005, 02:25:48 PM
well i've always imagined a different color for each girl ;) green for olga, pink for tatiana, purple for marie, blue for anastasia, but i think thats just me :P
selina              xxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: otmafan on May 24, 2005, 02:26:37 PM
Some summer dresses were also colored with ribbons or were those just the formal ones?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: La_Mashka on May 24, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
I loved that picture of Maria.  I had never seen it!!!

She is just so beautiful!!! .... her eyes are simply impressive
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: otmafan on May 24, 2005, 02:30:52 PM
Here's another picture. I think the baby dress on the far left is so cute! I have never seen any pictures though in which OTMA is wearing dresses like that. Are there any?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/otmafan/OTMA27sdresses.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on May 24, 2005, 03:24:23 PM
It could be a christening gown.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchessella on May 24, 2005, 08:56:23 PM
I'm pretty sure it was Alexei's they had in the Newark exhibit so it wouldn't be his--that one had gold embroidery I think.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Holly on May 24, 2005, 09:00:56 PM
I've always imagined their dresses white with a coloured sash or somthing. It probably has something to do with the fact that in pictures they are always white! Thank you for posting these beautiful pictures! I had no idea they were so colourful! I can see Olga in yellow, Tatiana in green, Marie in blue, and Anastasia in pink!  :D
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Steph on May 25, 2005, 04:21:33 AM
 ;)

I don't know if it was the same in Russia by the time of Felix's birth but in France and most European countries, boys were dressed as girls until their 3rd birthday.  Unfornately, I don't possess the picture showing LouisXIV and his descendants but the young duke of Brittany, elder brother of Louis XV is shown wearing a dress and so is the Prince Imperial son of Napoleon III.

It was not considered either ridiculous or ambigous at those times.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 25, 2005, 06:44:30 AM
most of them are at the Hermitage complex museum...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 25, 2005, 07:01:45 AM
Personnaly, I can see Olga in rose, Tatiana in yellow, Maria in mauve and Anastasia in blue-violet...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on May 25, 2005, 07:41:03 AM
Thanks for all the pictures...I wanted to make my little neice a dress like one of those so now i can thanks again soooooo much!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Annie on May 25, 2005, 09:57:46 AM
I think it was a tradition in Victorian times and right up until WWI all through Europe. There are pics of Alexei in dresses and ruffles!

In the case of Felix, he said in his memoirs that his mother had hoped for a girl, already having had 3 sons (Nikolai and 2 who had not survived :( ) She was so sure she was having a daughter she bought all kinds of fancy girls' clothes and shoes to have on hand, and when she had a boy (Felix called it 'my mother's disappointment) she dressed him as a girl anyway until he was 5. He said he didn't mind, he yelled out 'isn't baby pretty!' to those who saw him dressed up in his carriage! Was this the beginning of his love for cross dressing? I wonder what she thought of his dressing in ladies' clothes when he was older! His brother and his girlfriend loved dressing him up, saying he made a pretty girl!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: La_Mashka on May 25, 2005, 10:14:08 AM
Ok Lisa

Do you know if the fabrics receive any treatment? or are kept under certain humidity and temperature conditions?


Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: lostfan on May 25, 2005, 11:24:04 AM
Are there photos of the little dresses that OTMA & Alexei would wear? There is a series of phtos they did in those dresses, they're the ones with the little sashes on the arms.

Like the one in this picture, from the MN thread: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/zzzm1902.jpg
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: otmafan on May 25, 2005, 12:35:28 PM
I don't think those dresses are the ones pictured above. They are their summer dresses, not from the 1906 series.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ashanti01 on May 25, 2005, 01:06:16 PM
I think Felix later said his mother's caprice was to have a lasting effect on his character. Perhaps it did.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on May 25, 2005, 05:26:22 PM
They're completely different dresses. The ones shown above are summer dresses.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: casketkitten on May 26, 2005, 12:37:31 AM
You know, I look at these dresses and once more I am amazed that the same people who took such great lengths to kill an entire family also took such great care in preserving their effects!  :(
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lisa on May 26, 2005, 05:45:05 AM
The fabric is the MOST FRAGILE thing you could preserve in museums. The ideals conditions are about 50% of humidity and 18-20° C. I suppose the Hermiatge have special reserves for its costumes. The ideal is to preserve them lying flat in  large drawers, in the dark (to presrve the colors).You can  pad them a little with some neutral paper without chlorine: it's  against the folds .The folds break literaly the fabric.
Of course some chimical treatments or sewing restoration could be done, but it depends of the museum views. Generally, museum try to avoid most of "big" operations.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: lostfan on May 26, 2005, 12:00:48 PM
Quote
You know, I look at these dresses and once more I am amazed that the same people who took such great lengths to kill an entire family also took such great care in preserving their effects!  :(



I agree, although I think the Communists preserved them so well because after the Revolution, they opened Ts. S. to visitors to show the people how well the Romanovs lived while their people were starving and homeless.

BTW, I meant are there photos of those dresses for real? Like the one in the picture of Maria, have they been preserved and are there photos of them, or are they on display anywhere? In lots of the photos of the children when they were young, they seemed to be wearing those dresses.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 30, 2005, 07:44:07 PM
I think it was a bit terrible for Nikolai and Aleksandra to dress their children so nice while others didn't have food. But OTMAA really didn't have anything to do with it. Well, preserving the clothes was one good thing the Communists did after the revolution.  :-/
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: zoya_konstantinovna on May 30, 2005, 08:01:36 PM
i agree it was extremely sad to think of all those kids dieing while they were living it up but what else would they wear?:(
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 30, 2005, 08:14:07 PM
They could have worn average clothing. I'm not saying they had to wear rags like the homeless did, but there was no reason for AOTMAA to wear such fancy clothing when others weren't even sure when their next meal would be.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: nerdycool on May 30, 2005, 08:14:44 PM
But that's the way it's always been, in every part of the world, and how it will probably always be. There are always millions of people who are starving...who are homeless and have rags for clothing, and billions more who dress nice, have good food to eat, and have a roof over their heads. Nicholas and Alexandra weren't the first to dress their children nicely while their people suffered. Even when Communism took over Russia and everyone was was supposed to be on the same level, there were still people who did without while others had more. The reason why Nicholas' people were starving wasn't because of his family's wardrobes... it was because of his lack of leadership and mismanagement of the government among other things, and the culmination of bad decisions made by rulers prior to, and including Nicholas. Clothing had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on May 30, 2005, 08:17:40 PM
I'm not saying the clothing they wore was so blame. I'm just saying it's a shame some people will dress their children so nice while others are starving. Especially royalty.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 30, 2005, 09:28:51 PM
Nicholas II is not to blame. His children wore the clothes they have until they were old, and didn't fit any more.They only have their ceremony's clothes (Court dresses and such), and people liked they wear them.

I'm sure people who blames Nicholas II to dress his children nicely is the same who thinks it's fine that Rock and movie  stars have great houses, and clothes, and drink champagne in all meals, and have millions upon millions of dollars. Of course, they are stars! Poor NAOTMAA were only "royals". Rich people, nowadays is 20 times more rich than Romanov...and there are all days more starved people . Nicholas and his family was a simple, natural gentleman if we compare him to Michael Jackson...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchessella on May 30, 2005, 10:58:57 PM
I guess the feeling that arouses ire is the fact that royalty was supported by the work of the populace through taxes and so on that they had no vote over. See the French Revolution, American Revolution, etc...With movie stars, athletes and so on we willingly fork over our money so they can live in ostentatious style. I may live in a house the size of Tom Cruise's garage but if we didn't want to see his movies he wouldn't have made the money.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on May 31, 2005, 09:04:52 AM
Well, why wouldn't NAOTMAA dress nicely?  They did because they could. :-/  After all, they were the Tsar's family, they were royal and royals have always dressed nicer than the average person.  Just like now a days, usually the nicer you dress, the richer people assume you are. :-X  If you are a princess any time in history, it would look a bit odd if wore average clothing.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on May 31, 2005, 05:22:54 PM
Quote
Well, why wouldn't NAOTMAA dress nicely?  They did because they could. :-/  After all, they were the Tsar's family, they were royal and royals have always dressed nicer than the average person.  Just like now a days, usually the nicer you dress, the richer people assume you are. :-X  If you are a princess any time in history, it would look a bit odd if wore average clothing.


 I happen to agree with Shvibzik. As royalty, they had an image to uphold and it was considered dignified given their station. Considering others before them, the family dressed very plainly-including the children. Other than official court outfits, they seemed to have worn simple, yet stylish, clothes.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on May 31, 2005, 09:15:07 PM
Quote
...Considering others before them, the family dressed very plainly-including the children. Other than official court outfits, they seemed to have worn simple, yet stylish, clothes.


Although they were somewhat frilly, they were quite plain: you seem to see the same colors and there are not very many elaborate designs.  I think the older they got, the less fancy their everyday dresses were.  Yet, compared to the average Russian then, more noble looking than your everyday commoner.  
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Georgiy on June 01, 2005, 03:50:19 PM
I remember reading somewhere that some sections of high society complained about the Grand Duchesses clothing, that they wore as teenagers - not because it was fancy or anything, but because it was too plain and like what normal people wore!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 01, 2005, 06:48:16 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/alexei1904grown.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 02, 2005, 11:23:51 AM
Quote
I remember reading somewhere that some sections of high society complained about the Grand Duchesses clothing, that they wore as teenagers - not because it was fancy or anything, but because it was too plain and like what normal people wore!


How come when they were younger that they had  nicer everyday dresses than when they were older?  Perhaps because the war had made their tax income decrease (with everyone off at war)? ??? :-/
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 02, 2005, 01:14:48 PM
I don't think Alix allowed her daughters to get new dresses during the war just as another sacrifice.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on June 02, 2005, 01:29:05 PM
And it is also important to realize that styles were dramatically changing closer to 1920. People began to drop the tight corsets and heavy clothing in exchange for light, more free pieces. Length also became shorter. So the girls couldn't have worn what they wore when they were younger.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 02, 2005, 03:30:36 PM
I think that if you have the money you may aswell dress nicely!

I don't think their clothes differed that much during the war i mean quality wise.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 02, 2005, 04:20:44 PM
Quote
...I don't think their clothes differed that much during the war i mean quality wise.

and this one in 1916:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/Praskovia/Romanov/olgaandchild.jpg)

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Georgiy on June 02, 2005, 04:25:45 PM
Yes, and that is the sort of clothing that inspired nasty comments by high-born ladies about the GDs. Still, nowadays no one would complain if Prince William for example was seen in a T shirt and jeans. Looking at earlier comments about how Royalty dressed well while the poor were kind of in rags, I wonder in countries like the US where you don't have a Royal Family, don't the President and his family also dress smartly, at least when in public, as they have a certain image to conform to. I think it is the same as for Royalty or even for pop stars or whatever. Part of what they are is their public image, rightly or wrongly.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 02, 2005, 04:31:11 PM
Quote
Yes, and that is the sort of clothing that inspired nasty comments by high-born ladies about the GDs. Still, nowadays no one would complain if Prince William for example was seen in a T shirt and jeans. Looking at earlier comments about how Royalty dressed well while the poor were kind of in rags, I wonder in countries like the US where you don't have a Royal Family, don't the President and his family also dress smartly, at least when in public, as they have a certain image to conform to. I think it is the same as for Royalty or even for pop stars or whatever. Part of what they are is their public image, rightly or wrongly.


I suppose it is sort of a "duty" that someone of high rank or wealth dress nicer than the average person--it is like that pretty much all over the world. :-/
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Georgiy on June 02, 2005, 05:22:00 PM
Yep. Lucky them!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 02, 2005, 05:27:04 PM
According to The Romanovs: Love, Power and Tragedy, even the peasant women the girls met (and with whose children they played with) said their clothing was unsuitable!  Although it looks plain I am sure it was made with the finest fabrics, etc; I'm surprised that, say, Tatiana would wear such things as she seemed the most fashion-minded of the four.  Perhaps during the war they all felt like they shouldn't dress ostentatiously, instilled in them by Alix no doubt.

I did read a little blurb somewhere, I think from Muriel Buchanan, saying that Olga and Tatiana wore beautiful red velvet gowns at the opening of the British Red Cross Hospital in Grand Duke Dmitri's palace in St. Petersburg in 1915... but of course, that was a formal event, so they would have had to been dressed to the nines.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Georgiy on June 02, 2005, 06:04:55 PM
Really, it sounds like they just couldn't do anything right in the eyes of the public. ::) Quite petty really.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarushka on June 02, 2005, 06:45:32 PM
Here's a silly observation: OTMA seemed to have particularly long feet! (I'll try to post some photos later) Anyone want to hazard a guess at their shoe size?

Sarah
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 02, 2005, 06:51:22 PM
Quote
Really, it sounds like they just couldn't do anything right in the eyes of the public. ::) Quite petty really.


Agreed . I think the comment was something like, "That is something not even a peasant girl here would wear!" I quite like the blouses and the skirts, I could take or leave the jackets, but really, did they think the girls went around gallivanting in those two satin gowns they wore from the 1913 and 1914 photo shoots?  Bah.  I think perhaps it was good intentions gone bad; although when they were young people said Alix dressed her daughters very nicely.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 02, 2005, 07:13:29 PM
I think, considering they were royalty, they could have been dressed nicer.  But from what Russia was going through at the time, I can see why Alix had them dress so plainly.  I'm sure she didn't want everyone to think they were living in their palace all happy and in luxury without the slightest concern for the Russian people.

I don't want to be too much of a critic (considering how critizing the people were)by saying they could have been dressed in better clothes (not Court dresses, of course), but I think they could have somewhat.  But I can understand them wearing simpler clothes after the abdication, though.  They're not princesses (or a prince, in Alexei's case) anymore, now mere commoners-- ex-royals.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on June 03, 2005, 12:47:12 AM
lol. I agree. It seems like Maria had the biggest feet of her sisters, though. She could have maybe worn a 9? Just a blind guess.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on June 03, 2005, 12:54:43 AM
http://www.livadia.org/ana/1907-1912/10.jpg

http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/otma1914_1.jpg
Even though she has shoes on, Anastasia's shoes look pretty big! (Anastasia's closest to the camera)

http://www.livadia.org/mashka/images/oma1905_1.jpg
Even though they aren't yet finished growing, their feet are large here too...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 03, 2005, 04:55:30 AM
I thought as they got older they had more choice in their wardrobes? So Alix wouldn't have chosen everything.  
Also children always were prettier clothes then adults, especial girls, i mena you just have to dress them in pretty little dresses with bows and things!
They were also quite practical people, they didn't sit in their palaces all day. Plus Olga and Tatiana were nursing so didn't need to by more clothes so often.

I agree that they probably couldn't do anything right with other royals given the political climate at the time eg The Rasputin thing.


I do love their big blouses though.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 03, 2005, 04:57:25 AM
Yes ! i totally agree! i posted that somewhere, but i think someone thought i was talking about them having weird feet.
However they were all, part from Anastasia, quite tall, for that generation.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on June 03, 2005, 11:49:26 AM
Hm... having a size 8 1/2 to 9 foot myself since I was about 14, they look perfectly normal to me.   ;D

Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 03, 2005, 11:57:25 AM
tasha are you offended? :)
Sops
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on June 03, 2005, 12:11:41 PM
LOL... not in the least.  I know for certain that my feet are rather, um..., shall we say  irregular?

Thank you for your concern, however.  When I was younger, my mother and grandmother used to tell me that it was better to have feet that would hold you up.  It often left me wondering how people who had smaller feet never toppled over!

Sincere regards,
Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on June 03, 2005, 12:23:06 PM
lol, good good,  Mine are a size sevens but I'm 5"7(almost!!) so im average,
I agree, look at the tradition of foot binding, that was rather wrong.
Actually, i was watching the Antiques roadshow and this little chinese shoe came up, and inside it was this cermic foot and it showed what happened to the foot when it was bound, all toes folded over underneath the foot; actually it was quite disgusting, sorry if i have put you off your dinner!
sops
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on June 03, 2005, 01:03:33 PM
Oh, dear... and I complain when I have an ingrown toenail!  Ouch.

Although I must say, pointe shoes and figure skates have a tendency to do one in as well.

Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on June 03, 2005, 04:06:45 PM
in asia, women who had small feet were considered beautiful, so girls in china especially had their feet bound when they were very young and their feet were deformed for life
selina                 xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 04, 2005, 02:03:23 AM
Quote
Oh, dear... and I complain when I have an ingrown toenail!  Ouch.

Although I must say, pointe shoes and figure skates have a tendency to do one in as well.

Tasha


Oh, you ought to see my feet from my figure skates.  Bruised and battered, but my feet are very tiny anyway; my skates are a size 2 1/2 US sizes.  Haha.  I get blisters and I have permanent callouses on the heels and on my toes where they were squished, also from pointe too which I did in high school.  My poor tootsies!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on June 04, 2005, 11:26:53 AM
dancers also have bad feet, i gave it up and i still have calluses and blisters and my feet are in such bad condition, my mother despairs of me! maybe alix thought her daughters feet were too big?
selina             xxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RussiaSunbeam1918 on June 04, 2005, 01:34:30 PM
You're right! There feet were a bit large. My feet are 7.5-8 and I am only 5'4 so I can relate.  Did you know your foot is the same size as your arm from your elbow to your wrist? (Aproximately) or so I heard.  :)

-Dana
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Arianwen on June 04, 2005, 01:50:40 PM
Quote
You're right! There feet were a bit large. My feet are 7.5-8 and I am only 5'4 so I can relate.  Did you know your foot is the same size as your arm from your elbow to your wrist? (Aproximately) or so I heard.  :)

-Dana


Try it sometime. It actually DOES work. Actually, I'm the same height and shoe size as you. Eerie, no? Speaking of foot abuse, I've been in ballet since I was five, but because I was behind in growth, I had to wait until I was twelve, nearly thirteen, to start pointe. By that point, my feet had fully developped, so I got lucky. I DO have scars on my toes from blisters, though, and just seeing me stretch my feet makes my husband cringe. lol Adding figure skates didn't help, either. ;)

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Galactic_Misfit on June 04, 2005, 08:33:15 PM
As a kid I earned the nickname "boat feet" because of the fact that they are abnormally large for my height. I'm 19, 5'7" and I have size 11 feet (my dad is 6'2'' and he has size 10 feet). So, for all of OTMA, their feet look small to me.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Arianwen on June 04, 2005, 09:27:29 PM
Quote
As a kid I earned the nickname "boat feet" because of the fact that they are abnormally large for my height. I'm 19, 5'7" and I have size 11 feet (my dad is 6'2'' and he has size 10 feet). So, for all of OTMA, their feet look small to me.


lol Wow...I know Kate Winslet is somewhere near your height and wears a size ten, so I don't think you're all THAT far off. Keep in mind that men's sizes are completely different from women's. For example, I'm between a seven and an eight for women, but between and three and a four for men. That being said, my husband has size 13.5 feet, and then wonders why we call him Bigfoot...;)

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Galactic_Misfit on June 04, 2005, 10:22:24 PM
Quote

lol Wow...I know Kate Winslet is somewhere near your height and wears a size ten, so I don't think you're all THAT far off. Keep in mind that men's sizes are completely different from women's. For example, I'm between a seven and an eight for women, but between and three and a four for men. That being said, my husband has size 13.5 feet, and then wonders why we call him Bigfoot...;)

Regards,
Arianwen


Yeah...that is true. My cousin, like myself has a large shoe size. I think she's a 10 in womens and a 7 in mens. I'm either a 9 or 10 in mens depending on the shoe, and like I said before I'm a 11 in womens.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarai on June 05, 2005, 02:56:39 PM
FYI, there is a little more information on this topic in the following thread: :)
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1082491621
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 05, 2005, 03:06:40 PM
Quote
I thought as they got older they had more choice in their wardrobes? So Alix wouldn't have chosen everything.  
Also children always were prettier clothes then adults, especial girls, i mena you just have to dress them in pretty little dresses with bows and things!
They were also quite practical people, they didn't sit in their palaces all day. Plus Olga and Tatiana were nursing so didn't need to by more clothes so often.

I agree that they probably couldn't do anything right with other royals given the political climate at the time eg The Rasputin thing.


I do love their big blouses though.


Alix did once complain to Nicholas that Olga would slog around the house in her nurses uniform and not put on a nice dress; so apparently she didn't want her children in their uniforms all the time, but it was fine for Alix to do it! Haha.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 05, 2005, 03:21:49 PM
Were the Grand Duchesses and Empress "looked down upon" when they were nurses, or were they looked up to?  What I guess I mean is if it looked bad or good for royalty of their positions to "mingle with commoners"?  I suppose it's a bit of a dumb question... :-X :-/ ???
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarai on June 05, 2005, 03:25:26 PM
Quote
But OTMA's mother had very long feet as well (just look at her photo standing on a rock in the sea).


Yes, I was just thinking of that picture when I read this topic. It shows her rather long feet. Here is the link:
http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl_crosscollex/romanov/oneITEM.asp?pid=1001567&iid=1001567&srchtype=
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarai on June 05, 2005, 03:27:06 PM
I don't think they were looked down upon. Other royal ladies became nurses or were personally involved in the war effort, such as G.D. Olga (Nicholas's sister) and Marie Pavlovna, Jr., so Alexandra and her daughters weren't the only ones. I think the patients appreciated their efforts for the most part.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 05, 2005, 04:13:08 PM
I, too, think that they were somewhat "looked up to".  Seeing royalty concerned with the wounded soldiers and helping out and grieving over their losses would, you would think, raise their hopes and feel more secure with their sovereigns. ???

But seeing how in past royalty, sovereigns usually didn't physically help out the commoners, it made me wonder.  Especially princesses, considering the "etiquette" (but I don't know if that restricts them from "mingling with commoners"). :-/
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 05, 2005, 08:56:31 PM
I know that a lot of the Romanovs looked down upon Alix for being a nurse; ie Miechen, Ducky, etc.  Maria Feodorovna probably did too.  They of course all though tthat the more proper way to show support would be to run charities and be a decorative head of the Red Cross, etc.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: etonexile on June 05, 2005, 09:17:30 PM
Well...perhaps the Empress might have done more good to go to the hospitals....dressed beautifully...like the Imperial Person she was and who these young men must have reveared and thought they'd gone into battle for on some level...like Queen Mary....
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on June 06, 2005, 09:45:51 AM
i suppose royalty has to be snobbish ::)
selina              xxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on June 06, 2005, 11:20:32 AM
Quote
I know that a lot of the Romanovs looked down upon Alix for being a nurse; ie Miechen, Ducky, etc.  Maria Feodorovna probably did too.  They of course all though tthat the more proper way to show support would be to run charities and be a decorative head of the Red Cross, etc.


I kind of figured that the other royalty looked down on the nurse work, since royalty, as you said, is supposed to help, but not exactly physically.  

What did the commoners think?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarushka on June 06, 2005, 11:01:13 PM
How about this cute little thing:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/16e32a5c.jpg)

It's a child's ceremonial costume that belonged to Alexei. (From the catalog of the exhibition, NICHOLAS & ALEXANDRA)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_42 on June 10, 2005, 11:28:02 AM
(http://www.costumes.org/history/camerongallery/cameron28.JPG)


this was worn by tsar nicholas... very dashining if u ask me
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: otmafan on June 10, 2005, 09:20:00 PM
Anyone know if the dresses from the 1906 series were preserved by the IF?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on June 11, 2005, 12:27:00 AM
Quote
Anyone know if the dresses from the 1906 series were preserved by the IF?


Definitely yes, since they were worn regularly as well--probably for tea!  I bet they're probably safe somewhere in some back room of the Hermitage...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on June 12, 2005, 11:23:25 AM
Are there any pics of evening dresses belonging to Tatiana and Olga that survived over the years?
I would love to see them!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on July 02, 2005, 10:01:19 PM
grandduchess_42, that was taken in 1910; that is Olga in court dress.  Annie was wondering about if the gowns from the famous 1914 photo shoots (solo portraits of the girls), and probably the 1913 photo shoots (the ones of the girls around Alix is a famous one) exist.  I bet they do, somewhere.  They're lovely beaded gowns (well, for the older two only in 1913, but for all four in 1914!), but I prefer the 1914 style better!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Holly on July 03, 2005, 09:27:30 AM
Did they take formal portraits EVERY year? I haven't seen formal ones for every year.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: pinklady on July 04, 2005, 03:36:32 AM
I wonder that as well, as I have not seen formal family portraits for every year, only 1896, 1898, 1899,1901, 1904, 1906, 1913, I have not seen any other proper formal photos from other years.
Being a Royal Family I would have thought that one would exist of them for every year.
The children had a series from 1910 and 1914 and a few when they were little but apart from the photos in court costume that is it that I have seen.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 04, 2005, 05:27:17 PM
Quote
i suppose royalty has to be snobbish ::)
selina              xxxxxxxx



Well...Having nice clothes is not to be snobbish. Besides, people wanted to see their Empress and the Girls properly dressed!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ferngully on July 05, 2005, 07:07:43 AM
actually i meant about the nursing ;D
selina                xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 05, 2005, 06:12:06 PM
Ceremonial Court Costume of Empress Alexandra Feodorovna
late 19th - early 20th centuries
(http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/images/dressalix.jpg)

i havn't seen alix in a photo whens shes wearing this dress.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 06, 2005, 01:47:53 PM

(http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/virtual1999/images/af1903.jpeg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on July 07, 2005, 06:37:46 AM
GD_42 were did u find them all?
sopsxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Shvibzik on July 07, 2005, 09:48:45 AM
GD Sofia: If I'm not mistaken, they are on a link on this website.  I looked at it once, and it was quite neat.  I'll try to find it. ;)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 07, 2005, 12:16:43 PM
Quote
GD_42 were did u find them all?
sopsxx


;D i found them here!

http://www.nicholasandalexandra.com/index.html
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: grandduchess_sofia on July 08, 2005, 10:30:27 AM
thank you!!  :D
sopsxx
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on July 11, 2005, 12:07:08 AM
In Toys of the Tsar's Children, they have two pictures of shoes belonging to the Grand Duchesses, but I'm not sure who they individually belonged to or when they wore them since the text is all in Russian. I believe though they were from their very earlier childhoods, since they have the pom poms seen in several earlier photos of the first three girls. I would post them, but I can't.  :-/
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 19, 2005, 04:05:57 AM
I think that it is safe to say that court gowns with trains were not worn on occasions when dancing was required.

However, dresses in the second half of the nineteenth century and in the early part of the the twentieth, did have trains, including ball dresses.

I don't know if anyone has seen the 1997 film of Anna Karenina (which stars Sophie Marceau) which features an elaborate ball sequence; here it is clearly demonstrated how these women handled their complicated 1880's dresses with long trains, whilst performing waltzes, mazurkas and czardas with consummate skill and elegance.  A marvellous detail was included in which as each lady entered the ballroom, a footman swiftly scooped up their train and looped it over the lady's extended wrist.......thus permitting the train to be clear of the feet.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Fashion/anna11.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 19, 2005, 05:04:59 AM
Do you know where that was shot, Martyn?   It looks to me like the 'Big Hall' at the Catherine Palace.   It is the floor which persuades me of this.

The bride at the wedding we were at on Saturday last wore a dress with a long train.   When the dancing began, she removed her veil and looped the train over her wrist as Martyn describes.   She was free to dance - not just sedate waltzes, but the Gay Gordons and Eightsome Reel and etc. - some of the many Scottish country dances so enjoyed by Queen Victoria and, I think, without exception, all her descendants.

tsaria

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 19, 2005, 05:35:07 AM
I am afraid that I don't know where the sequence was shot, Tsaria.

I think that it is a wonderful film and very well designed; sadly I have seen it only once and my memory of it is a bit faded.

As you rightly suggest, trains have never been too much of an impediment to ladies.  For those who wrer to be presented at court, lessons in deportment and the handling of their lengthy and cumbersome trains wrer usually provided, sometimes by dancing masters.

Most well brought up young women would be instructed on how to walk, dance and sit with elegance, so that management of the crinoline, bustle, train or any other article of dress was effected with the minimum of fuss.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 19, 2005, 05:57:28 AM
I have had the privilege of touching the small court gowns and kokoshniki which belonged to the young Grand Duchesses, photographed above.

There are more kokoshniki.   These require restoration.   The pearls are definitely false.   The gowns were made of thread of silver.   It seems that the thread could only be of a certain length and it was woven through organza.   The dresses are more friable than fragile because the silver thread breaks so easily.   They must have been uncomfortable and itchy to wear.  They are also colour desaturated.   They appear to be pale grey instead of pale pink.  

Given the circumstances surrounding the removal of the Imperial Family, I do not think preservation of their clothing was uppermost in the minds of the revolutionaries.   We are very fortunate anything survived.

Of all the clothes which remained in the wardrobes of the Alexander Palace, many were used to wrap priceless objects during the evacuation of the Palace in anticipation of the Nazi occupation.  

You will notice that of all Nicholas IIs uniforms, it is the jackets, hats and caps which have survived.   The trousers were cut up and used as cleaning clothes after the Nazis were repelled.   Sadly this included the trousers he wore with his Hussar uniform to his wedding (the jacket and boots have survived).   The only trousers which belonged to Nicholas I, I know to have survived are the trousers, black and  beautifully detailed with black braid, which were part of his Royal Scots Greys uniform.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 19, 2005, 08:14:58 AM
Tsaria that is really amazing!  To have had the opportunity to touch these articles is a privilege indeed, as this is not afforded to just anyone.

I think that you ought to start a separate discussion to talk about these garments and how they have survived; clearly a fascinating story, the facts of which seem to be known to you in some detail.  Please tell us some more of your experiences in relation to this clothing........
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 19, 2005, 09:27:14 AM
Martyn kindly suggested I open a thread on the above topic, but I doubt I have sufficient material to sustain such a thread.

I have had to the good fortune of being in contact with clothes which belonged to Nicholas, Alexandra, the children as well as other members of the Romanov family.

Most of Alexandra's gowns are now either in the Hermitage, the Armoury or at Pavlovsk.  The only item of clothing which belonged to Alexandra which I have handled is a cream linen dressing gown - it is too structured to be described as a peignoir.   It is decorated with an abstract, lilac, floral motif and is quite Japanese in influence.

Other clothing, I have 'met', is, I think wrongly, described as having belonged to Alexandra.   This is a nurse's uniform - without the head scarf.   The long dress is a denim grey and the apron is made from a very fine grey and blue gingham check.  

The reason I think it has been misidentifed is because it would have been too small to fit Alexandra at that stage of her life.   I think it was Tatiana's because it belonged to someone very, very slim and tall.

tsaria

PS:  Anyone who has the book 'Nicholas & Alexandra - the family albums', could look at the photograph of Grand Duchess Marie on P.193.   Marie is wearing a gown very similar to the Empress' described above, but the fabric has a much 'busier' pattern.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 19, 2005, 09:39:04 AM
Many of Nicholas' uniforms have survived.   But, as I explained on the other thread, usually only jackets and headgear - with the exception of the 27 peices which were gifted to him when Queen Victoria - as a marriage present - made Nicholas Honourary Colonel in Chief of the Royal Scots Greys.

He was measured for this uniform when he visited Alexandra in England shortly after their betrothal.   It did not arrive in St Petersburg until after their wedding.   Of course, their marriage was advanced due to the sudden death of Alexander III.  

Nicholas and Alexandra were still living in the Anitchkov Palace when a deputation from the Royal Scots Greys travelled to St Petersburg to present Nicholas with the extensive wardrobe which comprised his uniform of the regiment.  

While he was in England, Nicholas attended a military parade at Aldershot.   Queen Victoria commissioned a painting of Nicholas, wearing his uniform of the Ataman Cossack,   receiving the salute at the parade.   This, very large, oil painting was also delivered to the newly-married couple by the Royal Scots delegation.   Sadly, so far as I am aware, this painting is missing.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 19, 2005, 09:49:22 AM
I have been looking at photographs of the Grand Duchesses Olga and Tatiana in their nurses'

uniforms.    Of the ones I have looked at so far, they seem to be wearing white.   In photographs taken indoors, they appear to be wearing white gowns over their uniforms.   But even out of doors, their uniforms do look white.  

I wonder if they had summer uniforms and winter uniforms?

In a photograph on P.273 of 'The Romanovs - love, power and tragedy', you can see the Empress wearing her nurse's uniform.   It is possible to see quite clearly the texture of the fabric of the cape which I think is integral to the gown.   It is also possible to see the very fine check of the apron and the red cross on the bodice - which I forgot to mention.   The uniform which Alexandra is wearing is very definitely much larger than the one I refer to above.

I am sorry I cannot post this or other photographs.   Perhaps someone who has the facility would kindly do so.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Arleen on July 21, 2005, 08:21:50 PM
I second that Tsaria, I would love to know anything at all that comes to mind on the subject of their actual clothing, you know HOW it was kept safe and WHERE exactly it was kept.  Oh the fabrics!  Anything at all about the fabrics and etc.

Please Tsaria..

..A
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 23, 2005, 05:33:31 PM
Reading the post about the fragility of the fabric reminded me of Nicholas' uniforms.  

When I first saw them, what struck me most was there size.   I know Nicholas was not a large man, but these jackets would barely have fitted a 12 year old boy.  

I asked the curator if there was a reason why they were so small and was Nicholas even smaller than history relates.   She explained to me the Tsar's clothes has shrunk in the cleaning process.

Nicholas' uniforms are impressive especially the Royal Scots Greys because it is so complete and his Honourary Admiral of the British Fleet - because of the connection.   By far the most moving is the Hussar's uniform he wore on the day of his wedding to Alexandra.

I have examined the boots he wore that day, closely.    They are made from fine patent leather with a brass motif on the front and spurs on the heels.   I think Nicholas must have only worn them on that one occasion.   The soles are barely scuffed.   So soft is the leather, it is possible still to see the imprint of his toes.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 24, 2005, 04:52:58 AM
Does anyone have any idea of the measurements of the Tsar?

Judging by the photographs, he seems to have maintained a fairly trim figure for most of his life and at a rough guess I would not have put him at more than a 42" chest.......

Tsaria, that is really fascinating information about the Tsar's uniforms; what a terrible shame that they had shrunk in cleaning, almost criminal.......

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 24, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
Martyn, I imagine the cleaning techniques used were rather primitive.   This was Soviet Russia - they had difficulty enough feeding the populace.  Indeed it is remarkable they took this degree of interest in the remnants of what was left of those they so abhorred.

Nicholas, in photographs, always appeared to have a fit, well-maintained body.   The chest size of his jackets certainly do not measure 42".   They are not very long either.   It is sad that it is no longer possible to get a true representation of the figure of the man, but it is wonderful so much did survive, revolution and war.  

The Royal Scots Greys had no idea this uniform still existed.   I was happy to reunite them with it.   From this connection grew the presence of pipers of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (the Greys have been amalgamated into this regiment) at the funeral of the Imperial Family.   The pipers piped the coffins bearing the remains of Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria/Anastasia, Dr Botkin, Anna Demidova, Trupp and Kharitinov off the aircraft which had carried them from Ekaterinburg to St Petersburg.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: NAAOTMA on July 24, 2005, 02:38:00 PM
Tsaria, what an incredible experience to touch the clothing, not just look at it from behind glass. Thank you so much for sharing it with all of us.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Lanie on July 24, 2005, 11:29:42 PM
Thank you, tsaria, for sharing all of this!

From what little I know about the nurses uniforms, the original colors of the dress was a grayish-green.  I find looking at the uniforms fasciating--those and the regimental uniforms of Olga and Tatiana.  Tatiana's I saw at the exhibition in Santa Fe, NM and I was shocked at how tall she must have been--and how tiny her waist was!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 25, 2005, 11:59:36 AM
I know those two uniforms as well, Lanie.  

Olga must have been petite, almost diminutive.   Tatiana seemed to have been very much taller.   Her waist I don't think could have been any more than 18",.   Olga's would have been about the same size.   Tatiana's slimness is more exaggerated because of her height.  

Now I wish I had thought of measuring them.   I don't know whether the dry cleaning process affected the girls' uniforms.

tsaria  
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: katusha on July 25, 2005, 05:22:52 PM
Rubbish! My grandfather was his cousin and he was also dressed as a girl until three and it made no difference to him at all.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 25, 2005, 06:59:24 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Alixinuniform.jpg)

This I think is the photo to which Tsaria referred earlier.....She looks astonishingly youthful.......

One of my favourites......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 25, 2005, 07:02:00 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/OlgaTatianaAlexeiuniform.jpg)

And the girls in their uniforms......

Anyone have any idea what they were made from?  Starched cotton, or linen, maybe, in the Summer?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 25, 2005, 07:16:18 PM
Yes I agree.

I think that we need to exercise some caution with some of Felix's assertions about his parents......I feel that sometimes he is guilty of more than just a touch of sensationalism.....

Many men survived this transition period of childhood dress with no longterm damage to their masculinity.......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 25, 2005, 07:36:40 PM
Given the chance, most kids will "dress up" on their own, without any motherly encouragement. I think Felix simply enjoyed it because he had so much fun.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 25, 2005, 09:41:39 PM
It was a common thing in those times. I have several 1900's magazines where you may find some publicity with "Dresses for Boys". I may send to someone the scan of those publicities to scan here. There were in Spanish. Yo may however, notice, that those dresses were called "dresses for boys" not plainly dresses. So, it was not supposed to dress a boy as if he was a girl...I know it's confusing.  ::)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on July 26, 2005, 10:44:13 AM
Thanks for posting the photograph, Martyn.  That IS the one.  

The dress was made of a fine, medium-weight, grey denim-type fabric.   The apron, with its tiny blue and grey check, I think, was cotton.  

The uniform I saw, labelled as Alexandra's, certainly appeared to me to have belonged to someone taller and slimmer.   I think it was most likely Tatiana's.   However, in the picture Martyn posted, the aprons Olga and Tatiana are wearing seem to be white.   (Do you see how slim Tatiana was?   Olga lost weight as a result of her breakdown.)   Perhaps there were different aprons for different purposes.

Alexandra does look younger in that photograph.   When she was doing something where she felt her contribution was really valued and worthwhile, it seemed to change her entire demeanour.   I suppose that is no different from the rest of us.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 28, 2005, 08:08:11 AM
Quote
Thanks for posting the photograph, Martyn.  That IS the one.  

The dress was made of a fine, medium-weight, grey denim-type fabric.   The apron, with its tiny blue and grey check, I think, was cotton.  

The uniform I saw, labelled as Alexandra's, certainly appeared to me to have belonged to someone taller and slimmer.   I think it was most likely Tatiana's.   However, in the picture Martyn posted, the aprons Olga and Tatiana are wearing seem to be white.   (Do you see how slim Tatiana was?   Olga lost weight as a result of her breakdown.)   Perhaps there were different aprons for different purposes.

Alexandra does look younger in that photograph.   When she was doing something where she felt her contribution was really valued and worthwhile, it seemed to change her entire demeanour.   I suppose that is no different from the rest of us.

tsaria



How frustrating the the attribution should be incorrect.

Alix, we know from existing images, had a fairly full figure.  Stressful circumsatnces and worry may have caused some weight loss, but perhaps not so much that she would fit the uniform that you describe.

As to the aprons, perhaps there were different ones for different purposes?

It is interesting that you describe the fabric as a kind of denim....I wonder if it is cambric, or drill?  

As for the photo, I am sure that it has been retouched.  Other images from this period show Alix to have the look of a middleaged woman; however I must add that the headddress does frame the face in such a way as to conceal some of the facial features, thus softening the effect.  However, it has, without doubt, been retouched.

Thank you so much Tsaria for this first-hand account of these wonderful and evocative articles; how I envy you having had the opportunity to be so close to these effects!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 28, 2005, 02:22:30 PM
Me too. Some people have all the luck. Where does one see things like Romanov clothes? (Are they in museums?)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 28, 2005, 03:21:22 PM
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The fabric is the MOST FRAGILE thing you could preserve in museums. The ideals conditions are about 50% of humidity and 18-20° C. I suppose the Hermiatge have special reserves for its costumes. The ideal is to preserve them lying flat in  large drawers, in the dark (to presrve the colors).You can  pad them a little with some neutral paper without chlorine: it's  against the folds .The folds break literaly the fabric.
Of course some chimical treatments or sewing restoration could be done, but it depends of the museum views. Generally, museum try to avoid most of "big" operations.



Very good post on this subject. Very few people realise how difficult it is to care for histroic artifacts made of fabric.

Silk fabrics from the 19th century can be some of the most difficult to preserve because there were often coloured with chemical dyes containing iron. As the fabric ages, so does the iron in the dye, except in the case of the iron it rusts or more scientifically, it oxidizes making the fabric simply fall to dust in the most extreme cases and in lesser cases subject to tearing with the slightest pressure.

All fabrics of course are at risk to rodent damage (especially in very old palaces with stone foundations) and silverfish damage, wool has the additional enemy of moths. Those of you familiar with Saint Petersburg will know how dusty that it can be. Dust is another enemy of fabric as the dust can make microscopic cuts into the fabric. After many decades let alone a century or more these microscopic cuts can weaken the structural integrity of the fabric.

The most durable fabric in historic clothing collections is linen. It is unfortunate that the use of linen was restricted mainly to undergarments and informal clothing because we would have much larger museum collections today.

I shall stop myself here before I end up writting a few pages more.

DAP
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: hikaru on July 28, 2005, 03:47:58 PM
I think that in Armoury in Moscow , they solved the problem of the costumes, because the oldest one is from 13th century.
But It is very intresting.
I also have remembered that alll those 13th century closes used to be stocked in the germeticaly closed sunduki ( some kind of the big wooden box) .
I also remembered that Alix paid a lot of attention ( She was a German Princess) for wardrobe rooms. All her wardrobes were germetically closed too.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Holly on July 29, 2005, 12:11:46 AM
I saw those at the exihibit in Sante Fe too. But the thing that stands out the nost in my mind is that white and bright pink polka-dotted robe of Alexandra's. I had a hard time believing she would wear it!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on July 29, 2005, 06:34:58 PM
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I saw those at the exihibit in Sante Fe too. But the thing that stands out the nost in my mind is that white and bright pink polka-dotted robe of Alexandra's. I had a hard time believing she would wear it!



I don't think that I have ever seen this garment.  Sounds intriguing though.....

Does anyone have a picture of it?  Is it a peignoir or wrapper?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 05, 2005, 07:29:51 PM
The wearing of gloves in Imperial Russia was perhaps a little different than the customs in the west.

First, there was a difference between when and where long and short gloves were worn.

There was a difference between when and where they were kept on.

1.  The Imperial Family, the nobility and proper society would wear "short gloves" to church or attend any form of a religious service.

    However, once in church, the RIGHT glove was removed and held in the palm of the left hand.   This was done because one could not cross oneself's with a gloved right hand.

    If the Empress or a Mme in the nobility and or of proper society were to take Communion in Church, than prior to Communion, both gloves were removed and given to the Lady-in-Waiting.

    They were only put back on again after the Final Blessing.

2.  At a reception, a ball, etc., long gloves were de rigueur.  Yes, these gloves had finger flaps, it is true.  If there were a receiving line, for example, if the Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna received in a receiving line, if, for some reason she extended her hand to a Mme, than it was imperative that the Mme quickly remove her right glove.  It was considered perfidious to offer a gloved hand to an ungloved hand, and the like.

    This did not occur with Their Majesties because one did not touch Their Majesties, except for the Pascal Greetings on Pasca and on the week following Pasca.

     The gloves remained on at dinner, with the finger flaps gently drawn back.

3.  In the movies and in modern society, gloves can be seen matching the color of the dress.  This is pure fiction.  The gloves were white, except for a person in deep mourning, when they would have been black.  A respectable woman would have never worn red or pink gloves.

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Finelly on August 06, 2005, 02:31:00 AM
It wasn't just in Europe.  One of my grandfathers was raised in Pennsylvania and his mother dressed him in dresses with long banana curls all over his head until he was 3......I have a photo and he looks VERY girly!

Thank goodness, he grew up to be a basketball player!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 06, 2005, 05:30:49 AM
Thank you very much for that information Alex - I have to add that I didn't know some of that!

Very good point about coloured gloves, and spot on.  Uniformly white, except for mourning......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 06, 2005, 07:04:06 AM
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Thank you very much for that information Alex - I have to add that I didn't know some of that!

Very good point about coloured gloves, and spot on.  Uniformly white, except for mourning......


Thank you very much Martyn for your kind words.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 08, 2005, 05:48:01 PM
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Thank you very much Martyn for your kind words.



Really, my pleasure Alex.

It is wonderful to encounter someone who has such an in-depth knowledge of a sartorial subject, perhaps small in the greater scheme of things, but  a vital detail nonetheless to those of us who feebly attempt to recreate that lost world in matters of dress.

I hope that you will continue to share with us your extensive knowledge of such matters, in other discussions.......

Thank you once again for clarifying that matter.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 08, 2005, 08:59:50 PM
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Really, my pleasure Alex.

It is wonderful to encounter someone who has such an in-depth knowledge of a sartorial subject, perhaps small in the greater scheme of things, but  a vital detail nonetheless to those of us who feebly attempt to recreate that lost world in matters of dress.

I hope that you will continue to share with us your extensive knowledge of such matters, in other discussions.......

Thank you once again for clarifying that matter.


Again, thank you, Martyn, it is indeed small today in the small in the scheme of things..

But consider then, in Imperial Russia.  Let's say my someone of good society but so knowledge, maybe someone who just "arrived", would have actually been invited to an "A" list party.  The  "newly arrived" attends the Party, a Grand Duchess extended her ungloved right hand to her (she would extend her cheek by any means) and the "newly arrived' offers the Grand Duchess a gloved hand.  The "newly arrived" would have been greeted ... and exited ... in all of about 10 minutes, never to return.   That's how things have changed in one hundred years.


Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: pinklady on August 09, 2005, 07:19:19 AM
I see nothing wrong with wearing a bright pink polka dotted robe!
I want one  ;D
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 09, 2005, 08:27:04 AM
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I see nothing wrong with wearing a bright pink polka dotted robe!
I want one  ;D


Tsaria,

Indeed I am envious of you.  You are very fortunate.

If I could share with some other information with you, which I know, in respect of the day-clothes of The Grand Duchesses.

Four times a year, regularly for every year from about 1907 until 1914, the Empress would order the clothes of the Grand Duchesses from La Maison Worth in Paris.  La Maison Worth was an exceptionally elegant, but clean-lines, contrasting colors kind of elegance, devoid of so much of the English-inspired Victorian frou-frou.

La Maison Worth was located at the very prestigious 7, rue de la Paix and was founded in 1858 by Frederic Worth.  As a testimony to its greatness, it lasted until the Germans occupied Paris in 1940.  His progeniture were one of the few couturiers that would not colloaborates "avec les Bosches".  To this day, his top-of-the-line perfume, entitled "Je Reviens" is still sold on the market.  It is a light, air, fragrance.

In any cases, four times a year, a considerable amount of gold roubles were transferred to the Imperial Russian Embassy in Paris for the purchases of day-clothes for the Grand Duchesses and in some case the Empress herself.  It is always easy to tell when the Empress is wearing a Worth creation, as it is with the Grand Duchesses.  For the Grand Duchesses, everything was ordered the same and the measurements were always transmitted in the Diplomatic Pouch.  The task was delicate enough the befell the wife of the Russian Ambassador in Paris.  If she blabbed about the amount of money involved, her husband would have lost his job.  He knew that and she knew that.

Worth was not a cheap couturier by any means.  He designed and developed a quality line and charged and was paid for a quality-line.  It was truly a classic-line, one that favored pastel colors, but clean ones, and contrasting ones.

The ordering only stop in 1914 with both the advent of the war and tenuousness of the Emperor's position.  The amounts spent on clothes were considerable, in spite of what many report about Alexandra's frugality.

Please look at several of the simple-lined summer dresses of the Empress, particularly the white ones.  If the label remains in it, you will see that it says "Worth - Paris".

Regards from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Finelly on August 09, 2005, 01:49:08 PM
From "The Last Empress":

"Alexandra disappointed many in the capital, for her fashion sense left something to be desired in the eyes of society.  She dressed for her own comfort, and though she patronized the most pretigious courturiers of the day, she took little interest in current trends.  Each season, she ordered fifty new dresses from Paquin or Worth in Paris.  Alexandra constantly made additions to her wardrobe when she found a gown whose style she particularly liked; as a result, the trar paid clothing bills of up to 10,000 rubles a month.  When she married, her entire trousseau consisted of mourning and half-mourning clothes, so that she came to the throne with no clothing appropriate to her station.  Alexandra favored flowing silk dresses of white, cream or mauve, covered in lace and worn with large, wide-brimmed hats trimmed with ostrich feathers made by Bertrands, a French firm which had an outlet in St. Petersburg.  Her stockings of sil and lace were manufactured by Swears and Wells in London.  He shoes were low-heeled, in suede and leather and she always carried a parasol for protection against the sun.  She disliked many of the famous fashions of the day, finding the "hobble skirts" an impossible nuisance.....

"....Along with the clothing from Paris, Alexandra also ordered gowns from the capital's leading fashion queen, Madame Brissac, who made a huge fortune from th eoutrageous prices she charged her clients."

Much of the source for the above came from the statements of the Tsarina's first maid, Marie Mouchenow.  It's pretty obvious that if Alexandra was frugal, it was about something other than wardrobe!
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 09, 2005, 10:11:19 PM
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From "The Last Empress":

"Alexandra disappointed many in the capital, for her fashion sense left something to be desired in the eyes of society.  She dressed for her own comfort, and though she patronized the most pretigious courturiers of the day, she took little interest in current trends.  Each season, she ordered fifty new dresses from Paquin or Worth in Paris.  Alexandra constantly made additions to her wardrobe when she found a gown whose style she particularly liked; as a result, the trar paid clothing bills of up to 10,000 rubles a month.  When she married, her entire trousseau consisted of mourning and half-mourning clothes, so that she came to the throne with no clothing appropriate to her station.  Alexandra favored flowing silk dresses of white, cream or mauve, covered in lace and worn with large, wide-brimmed hats trimmed with ostrich feathers made by Bertrands, a French firm which had an outlet in St. Petersburg.  Her stockings of sil and lace were manufactured by Swears and Wells in London.  He shoes were low-heeled, in suede and leather and she always carried a parasol for protection against the sun.  She disliked many of the famous fashions of the day, finding the "hobble skirts" an impossible nuisance.....

"....Along with the clothing from Paris, Alexandra also ordered gowns from the capital's leading fashion queen, Madame Brissac, who made a huge fortune from th eoutrageous prices she charged her clients."

Much of the source for the above came from the statements of the Tsarina's first maid, Marie Mouchenow.  It's pretty obvious that if Alexandra was frugal, it was about something other than wardrobe!


Without admitting or denying the veracity of the above-quoted postings by the above-referenced poster or posteress, let's consider:

10,000 gold rubles in 1910 equaled 10,000 British pounds.  They were on a par that year.

And in 1910, one British pound sterling equaled 10 United States dollars.

Thus, the maid has asserted that in 1910, where a Rolly-Royce cost less than USD 10,000, the Empress was spending USD 100,000.00 per month on clothes?  USD 1,200,000 a year in clothes in 1910?  Does anyone on this site realize that for USD 1,200,00 a year in 1910 the Empress most likely could have bought every haute couture dress produced in Paris?

Does anyone NOT see the spuriousness of these figures?

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: bluetoria on August 10, 2005, 05:58:48 PM
I suppose if all the boys wore - what we consider - girls' clothes, it wouldn't have seemed at all 'girly' but quite natural.

Felix was just naturally flamboyant & perhaps enjoyed it more than most, but didn't his mother continue to dress him in girls' clothes long after the age when most boys had moved into more 'macho' attire?  
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Finelly on August 10, 2005, 06:14:40 PM
Yep, BlueToria - the extended duration may have been due to a combination of the fact that his mother missed having a girl, and that Felix actually enjoyed wearing "girlie" clothes...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Mgmstl on August 11, 2005, 09:48:16 AM
My grandfathers born in 1909 & 1910 both wore dresses or shifts, and they did so up until the were 3 or 4, then came pants or knickers.  It was common place for boys to be dressed in these long shifts.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 11, 2005, 06:18:54 PM
I think that the term that was used to describe the transition from the infantile dresses that were worn in the first few years of the life of a male child to more maculine garb is 'to be breeched'...that is, to be put into breeches...........
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Bolin on August 13, 2005, 11:54:37 AM
Yes, I agree that the 10,000 rubles a month spent on clothing seems exaggerated but that would be $5,000 U.S. per month or $60,000 per annum in 1910. The equivalent sum in 2005 currency would be the amount AlexP mentioned of over $1,200,000 per annum.
Perhaps this was the amount spent for Alexandra and her 4 daughters' wardrobes?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: NAAOTMA on August 13, 2005, 03:06:17 PM
Tsaria, the robe in the Santa Fe exhibit is cotton, with a cloverleaf pattern in pink on a white background. It is pretty and summery, what one would wear as a dressing gown. If I recall it correctly, it had three quarter length sleeves trimmed in lace at the end of the sleeve.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 13, 2005, 08:26:38 PM
Quote
Yes, I agree that the 10,000 rubles a month spent on clothing seems exaggerated but that would be $5,000 U.S. per month or $60,000 per annum in 1910. The equivalent sum in 2005 currency would be the amount AlexP mentioned of over $1,200,000 per annum.
Perhaps this was the amount spent for Alexandra and her 4 daughters' wardrobes?


Dear Bolin,

I knew something was wrong here...

But I have since discovered that Maria Muchanova's (which is the Russian spelling, not the German) book is basically a complete fraud, an entire complete fraud.  I had never heard of it nor had I ever read it.  It is pure fantasy and was a way of making money on the late Imperial Family.  Thus, it is a pure canard and no one should believe anything in it.

1.  For one, a common maid would not have known how much money the Empress spent on clothes;

2.  Second, a common maid would not be able to distinguish a Paquin gown (of which there were very few) from an entire collection of Worth (of which there were many) as a common maid would surely not be able to read French, perhaps not even read at all;

3.  Etc., etc.

So let's bear this in mind and just put all of the previous poster's comments about Madame Muchanova to rest.

Thank you very much for your kind posting and kind thoughts.

With all of the best from Shanghai,


Alexander Alexandrovitch P.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarushka on August 13, 2005, 11:36:58 PM
Here's a photo identified as of one of the Grand Duchess's Red Cross uniforms:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/100_1931.jpg)

And, tsaria --
is this the photo you were referring to in your initial post?
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/100_1933.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 15, 2005, 10:01:58 PM
Quote
This is a lovely topic. My grandmother always thought that any color but white for gloves was vulgar and not done. I have never worn a pair of gloves that was any color but white because she would turn in her grave.

There is a true story about Clementine Hozier Churchill. She was asked to be an extra at a dinner party for a rather grand relation, at the last minute, and she did not want to go because she did not have a clean pair of gloves. Her mother told her very strongly that she must go and do her bit as the relative had been most kind to Clementine, who was in economically reduced circumstances. Clementine went to the dinner party, in rather grubby gloves. It was there that she met Winston Churchill for the second time (the first time was not successful) and the rest is history. She was known to be a fastidious and very well-groomed woman, so perhaps her gloves were not in as bad shape as she felt they were. Or perhaps candlelight hid some fashion sins.

This is a wonderful "anecdote" dear friend.  Thank you so much for sharing it with us.  And about a truly grand old family.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 12:57:14 AM
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In the film "An Ideal Husband" the adventuress who is determined to have her way regardless of the havoc she causes is seen at an evening event in elbow length white gloves. She fill a plate with delicacies, and without adjusting her gloves, picks up a morsel and pops it in her mouth, with her gloved fingers touching the food. At the time I thought that this action was a subtle way of showing that she was not the well bred lady she pretended to be.


Dear Naaotma,

Kakoi uzhac....quelle bestialite!  Yes, you are quite right...it demonstrated a terrible "esprit maladroit".  Yes, it even greater than subtle...

And can you remember with which hand she did this?  This may sound trivial to the uninitiated buy I trust that she at least she used the right hand, even though gloved.  One never picked up things with one's left hand.

Thank you for sharing this with us.  And thank you for the very nice posting.

With all the best from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2005, 04:07:43 AM
NAAOTMA, that is a very interesting point about bracelets being worn over gloves.

Does anyone know what the correct etiquette might be?  There are may images, as you suggest, of royalty in the 19th century thus attired......notably both Alix of Wales and Alix of Russia.....
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 05:42:38 AM
Quote
NAAOTMA, that is a very interesting point about bracelets being worn over gloves.

Does anyone know what the correct etiquette might be?  There are may images, as you suggest, of royalty in the 19th century thus attired......notably both Alix of Wales and Alix of Russia.....


Dear All,

Here's the Russian take on this good question.  Please let me have the English take.

Divides two ways:

For church, teas, afternoons, morning, when a hat is worn (that is until 19h00), no bracelets or rings overlaying the gloves.  No watches overlaying the gloves.  No rings overlaying the gloves.  This is when the gloves are mid-forearm length at most.

When the gloves formal evening wear, at least 3/4 gloves, a wonderful diamond or expensive jeweled bracelet could be worn.  Preferably only one, on the right hand, to be exact.  Again, no watches, rings (they were worn under the gloves), or other accoutrements.

I cannot speak to Alexandra Feodorovna as she maintained, to be very polite, English standards of dress, even though the clothes came from Paris.  This may have also set her apart from the Court and the Medames of the 500 families who followed French and Russified French traditions.

I look forward to hearing how the rest of the world viewed it, and still views it.


With all of the best from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: TampaBay on August 16, 2005, 03:43:48 PM
Quote

Without admitting or denying the veracity of the above-quoted postings by the above-referenced poster or posteress, let's consider:

10,000 gold rubles in 1910 equaled 10,000 British pounds.  They were on a par that year.

And in 1910, one British pound sterling equaled 10 United States dollars.

Thus, the maid has asserted that in 1910, where a Rolly-Royce cost less than USD 10,000, the Empress was spending USD 100,000.00 per month on clothes?  USD 1,200,000 a year in clothes in 1910?  Does anyone on this site realize that for USD 1,200,00 a year in 1910 the Empress most likely could have bought every haute couture dress produced in Paris?

Does anyone NOT see the spuriousness of these figures?



I agree.  Even Jackie Kennedy, Oprah Winfery, Ivana Trupp and HRH Elizbeth Taylor do not/did not spend that kind of money on clothes.  AND Oprah is on TV every day!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: etonexile on August 16, 2005, 09:59:11 PM
Those elbow length gloves must have been a blessing in huge,drafty,icey palaces...and the ladies were nearly "popping" out of their frocks at the shoulders and decolletage...brrrrrrrrr...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 16, 2005, 11:19:11 PM
Quote
As I am left handed, I would have struggled in the Edwardian world. It does come in handy when using silverware in the continental manner though...


Dear Naatoma,

You would have more than struggled, dear friend.  In Russia, you would have been forced to write with your right hand, you would have been forced to become right-handed, etc., etc., but yes, for eating European-style, no problems.  For whatever reason, left-handedness was not acceptable to in the 19th century.

But the table manners would have been the best in the world, for sure, and that is what everyone would have noticed.



A.A.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on August 16, 2005, 11:47:45 PM
Quote

  For whatever reason, left-handedness was not acceptable to in the 19th century.

A.A.


Left handedness hasn't been accepted throughout history. I found an interesting article that explains some of the origin of this hatred:

Many left-handed people consider themselves oppressed by the right-handed majority — to the point of "prejudice." Many European languages (including English) use the same word for "right" (in a directional sense) to mean "correct, proper". The Latin word for "right-handed" is "dexter," as in dexterity. Throughout history, being left-handed was considered as negative — the Latin "sinister" means "left." In Italian, it is sinistra. There are many negative connotations associated with the word "left-handed": clumsy, awkward, unlucky, insincere, sinister, malicious, and so on. French gauche, meaning "left", means "awkward or clumsy" in English, whereas French droit is cognate with English "adroit", meaning dextrous, skilful with the hands, and right-handed. In Spanish, the word "diestro" (right-handed) means also skilful. As these are all very old words, they would tend to support theories indicating that the predominance of right-handedness is an extremely old phenomenon.

The Eskimos believed that every left-handed person was a sorcerer. In the old age, though there were few examples of it happening, a Japanese man could divorce his wife if he discovered that she was left-handed. There have been, however, many famous left-handed people, and the associated right brain hemisphere that is said to be more active in left-handed people has been found in some circumstances to be associated with genius and is correlated with artistic and visual skill.

Until very recently in Taiwan, left-handed people were strongly encouraged to switch to being right-handed (or at least, switch to writing with the right hand). Latin characters are equally easy to write with either hand, but it is more difficult to write legible Chinese characters with the left hand. The prescribed direction of writing each line of a Chinese character is designed for the movements of the right hand, and some shapes tend to feel awkward to follow with the left hand's fingers. It results in a less soft writing than it would be with the right hand.

Some theorize that those languages that have a written language from right to left, such as Arabic and Hebrew, are derived from cultures where the first writing was chiselled by hand in stone, where right-handed masons would write from right to left. Under this theory, cultures where the first written words were on some form of paper use left to right. This is not universally accepted, however.

Until the latter part of the twentieth century, Roman Catholic nuns in American elementary schools (and possibly elsewhere, like in Dutch primary schools) would punish children for using their left hand to write, typically by slapping their left hand with a ruler if they attempted to pick up a pen with it. Left-handedness was interpreted as a sign of Satanic influence, and thus prohibited.

It has been hypothesized that some sun worshipers have grown to associate their left sides with evil, since people facing north would see the sun set (disappear) on their left. The evidence for this is very weak, however, as the opposite conclusion can be drawn when one considers a person facing south (the opposite direction). It has been suggested that there may be a preference for northern hemisphere dwellers to face the fixed north star (i.e., north) when making directions judgements.

Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on August 17, 2005, 11:04:40 AM
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Thank you for posting this information, Ortino. Left handed people make up 10% of the population. Prince William is a lefty. And as AlexP writes, lefties were forced into becoming right-handed. My aunt was forced to become right-handed and it was hell for her. She was born in the late 1920s, when that practice was still common. My maternal grandmother tried to do the same with me, and my mother put a stop to it.

As for handedness and gloves, since lefties were made to be righties, it all would have been automatic since being taught as a child? But difficult for a child to learn, and no doubt very traumatic for many.


You're welcome NAAOTMA. I too am a lefty so I understand what you're saying NAAOTMA. My brother and I are both lefties, which is extremely surprising considering both our parents are righties. According to what I found, there's a 9% chance of that happening so I really must be unique.  :P  ;)That's terrible what happened to your grandmother. I've heard reports of this happening in earlier decades. Where was your grandmother born? I'd imagine that if you were taught as a child to only use your right hand, it would be awkward perhaps at times but still manageable. I've never understood why the left hand is so negative.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 17, 2005, 04:46:29 PM
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Here's a photo identified as of one of the Grand Duchess's Red Cross uniforms:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/100_1931.jpg)




May I ask where this photograph is from?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Laura Mabee on August 17, 2005, 04:48:18 PM
Haha! That's actully my scan from Peter Kurth's Tsar  ;D
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on August 17, 2005, 04:57:23 PM
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My grandmother was the American born daughter of two Prussians. I am guessing that her parents brought that European practice with them. Most lefties are somewhat ambidexterous. I only use my right hand for using scissors, holding a cup or glass and a few other things. On the other hand, I was firmly left-handed when it came to tennis and learning a musical instrument. Also left-footed when it came to iceskating. I am the only left-handed person in my generation in my family. You are lucky to have a sibling to share it!

When I lived in Italy in the early 1970s, it was considered very bad manners to do anything with one's left hand in a social setting.


The only people I know who are lefty in my family are me, my brother, and my grandfather (dead), so not so many of us. We lefties are special because there are so few of us. ;D I am somewhat ambidexterous, switching hands depending on what I am doing. I write, pour things, cut, turn pages, and throw with my left hand but use the computer mouse, bat and catch with my right. I can write legibly with my right, but it takes me much longer. I think it depends on what you're doing really and what feels right.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: AlexP on August 17, 2005, 09:51:33 PM
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Yes, so true. But from now on, I will never forget all the things I am doing with my left hand that in a bygone age would have been done with my right.

AlexP was most kind in his comments. Thank you, AlexP.

As another poster observed, those elbow length gloves  must have been very nice in winter ballroom. I know that glace kid can be lined with silk to make it toasty.

My Great Aunt Jane told wonderful stories of her life as a new bride in the World War One era. She received a present of gloves from her new inlaws. There were different gloves for every event.  Later when she expecting her child,  they gave her a gift of various gloves for when she took the baby out for an airing. Her long evening gloves were beautiful, as were her three quarter length and wrist length.


Dear NAAOMTA,

Thank you for sharing with us your stories about your Great Aunt Jane.  It is precisely these kind of personal stories that bring an era to life for readers in a far off-period.  It is indeed so interesting to learn from another source what we all have been discussing -- the length of the glove, the different colors of the gloves and when they would be worn.  They were indeed noticed in that period.  It separated a lady from the others.

Again, thank you for sharing.

A.A.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 18, 2005, 07:19:01 AM
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There is a beautiful quote from the novel THE GO-BETWEEN. It says "The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there." It really sums it up, does it not? And yes, the old family stories give one a glimpse into the past, and give it color and breath.




Quite so.  

I would like to thank both you and Alex for giving us an insight into that world, through the recounting of the experiences of your forebears.

As Alex rightly says, it adds colour and breadth to the facts and customs as we know them.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: julia.montague on August 25, 2005, 05:13:51 AM
I love these dresses.
I would love to try it on and have my hair styled like OTMA .
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Janet on August 28, 2005, 08:12:50 AM
Martyn asked me to post this photo of Elizabeth II at a film premiere in 1953 as an example of a bracelet being worn over gloves.

(http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/9472/october271953filmpremiere5uk.jpg)
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on August 28, 2005, 12:05:55 PM
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There is an interesting picture in the book ROYAL STYLE by Ingrid Seward of a State Banquet at Windsor Castle. The Queen leads the party in, with her long gloves with bracelets on each gloved arm, followed by the Queen Mother wearing her gloves with bracelets exactly the same way, and then Diana follows. Diana is wearing no gloves, one bracelet on her right arm, and is in the pale ice blue chiffon evening dress with the throat scarf. All are in tiaras. The lady following Diana is in long sleeves and no gloves.


I don't know the reason for this, but I think that it's largely just a matter of tradition and taste. The Queen Mother and the Queen had different social standards to follow when growing up (probably the use of gloves whereever they went in a public setting), so perhaps Diana and this other woman found them an unnecessary accessory on this occasion. Or perhaps their status demanded the use of gloves.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: gleb on August 30, 2005, 01:23:16 PM
 
I have recently bought a new pair of Tricker's shoes and looking at a pic showing George V and another showing Nicholas II, I was amazed to see that classic men shoes haven't changed that much.

Does anybody know what kind of shoes men (Royals and aristocrats, I mean) used to wear, where they bought them and other things like these?

Thanks

Gleb
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 30, 2005, 03:47:31 PM
You might find it interesting to know that the standard left and right shoe did not enter common usage until after the United States Civil War. Until the mid-1860's men normally wore straight last shoes, left and right last shoes were made for the richer customers.

In an attempt at war time profiteering and fraud, a US Army contractor who held a contract for making the well known Brogan army shoe, doubled his sales by turning the request for thousands of straight last shoes into a contract for thousands of pairs of left and right last shoes. Thus millions of common people were brought into their first contact with the left and right shoe that we now use everyday.

David
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on August 31, 2005, 01:44:58 PM
I don't think that Diana was too worried about ditching things or ideas that did not conform to her idea of doing things, particularly later.

The notion of wearing short gloves to daytime fuctions may well be yet another barrier between the royal personage and the public.  Certainly Pcss Anne is often sporting them, and once on, they seldom come off.

Diana may have felt that she needed a more hands-on approach, literally, and ditched the gloves. Good for her, if that was the case.......
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tania+ on August 31, 2005, 04:00:16 PM
I had never read nor heard that gloves were kept on at dinner, either with only one hand. But, as a side note, in regards to children in russia being forced to write with one's right hand, its true. My father was brought up forced to write with his right hand. Although I never cared what hand my child wrote with, both grandparents still decided on the old way, forcing the right to be used with our child. I learned at an early age to write with both.

I'd heard making a child write with the hand that they do not wish to use, is quite disruptive mentally. I have not seen anything fact based, or in print. Any responses on this ?

Tania
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Ortino on August 31, 2005, 05:20:53 PM
^Further up on this page, there's a bit of information and a short discussion about left handed people and them being forced to use their other hand.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on August 31, 2005, 09:10:50 PM
Personally, I wish they'd come back in fashion.  One can't find anything really suitable for children to wear these days, for boys in particular, after the age of 9 months!  After that, most stores carry are things designed to make the child look like a miniature man wearing jeans and a tee shirt.  

Certainly there are the few specialty shops here and there where you can find a nice jacket for special occasions, and some boarding school clothes, but... sigh... I guess I was born in the wrong time period.

Best wishes,
Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Katia on September 01, 2005, 12:12:30 AM
Ouch! I can't stand children wearing sailor suits (or their parent's who make them wear them...!) When I and my sister were little, we had to use sailor suits (blouses, skirts, even hats!) sometimes and I hated it when aunties and uncles said "How sweet..!" Bah!

I must admit OTMA and Alexei look very pretty in their outfits though...
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on September 01, 2005, 02:21:36 PM
That's funny... my mother said the same thing!  

Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: TampaBay on September 03, 2005, 06:56:51 AM
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Personally, I wish they'd come back in fashion.  One can't find anything really suitable for children to wear these days, for boys in particular, after the age of 9 months!  After that, most stores carry are things designed to make the child look like a miniature man wearing jeans and a tee shirt.  

Certainly there are the few specialty shops here and there where you can find a nice jacket for special occasions, and some boarding school clothes, but... sigh... I guess I was born in the wrong time period.

Best wishes,
Tasha


Tasha,

Where are you from?  North America or Europe or Austriala or South Africa?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on September 03, 2005, 08:10:16 PM
I was born in North America, but most of my family is in Europe.

I assume Tampa bay is in Florida... how did you fare with Katrina?

Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: TampaBay on September 04, 2005, 07:43:50 AM
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I was born in North America, but most of my family is in Europe.

I assume Tampa bay is in Florida... how did you fare with Katrina?

Tasha


No problems at all.  The storm 100% missed the greater Tampa, Florida Metro Area.  Thanks for asking!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Sarushka on September 07, 2005, 09:36:34 AM
In the movie, was Alexei by any chance visiting with British relatives when he's seen in the British suit? Where were the photos taken of the various young Grand Dukes wearing the alternate style? I ask because I've noticed that when the Tsar received foreign leaders, he often wore a uniform from the visitor's country (and vice versa). Maybe it was a protocol thing?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Kseniya on September 11, 2005, 08:50:02 AM
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i just adore the head piece!


You mean the kokoshnik?
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Tasha_R on September 12, 2005, 10:01:53 AM
Sarah, that is a very good point. Yes, when visiting they often took on the uniform of those whom they were visiting.

Sincerely,
Tasha
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: ChristineM on September 13, 2005, 02:02:53 PM
They wore the uniform of the country they were visiting partly as a mark of respect, but also because they were, invariably, honourary colonel in chief and/or admiral.

In the case of Nicholas II, his wedding present from his grandmother-in-law, Queen Victoria, was the position of Honourary Colonel in Chief of the Royal Scots Greys.   The Royal Scots Greys presented the new Tsar with the entire uniform - down the minutest detail.   This is in displayed in the exposition in the Alexander Palace.

Later, Nicholas was created Honourary Admiral in Chief of the British Navy by King Edward VII.  This uniform is also exhibited in the Alexander Palace.

When Edward VII and Queen Alexandra visited Nicholas and Alexandra at Reval, the King wore the uniform of an Admiral of the Russian Navy while the Tsar wore his uniform of Admiral of the British Fleet.

tsaria
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Alixz on October 04, 2005, 11:11:10 PM
I have a picture of my father who was born in 1918 and dressed in long curls untill age three or four.  The long dresses were gone for him by then, but he had the knickers and the high button shoes and what looks like a long sleeve silk shirt.
He grew up to play semi pro football, become and electronics engineer and work on the US space program in the 1950's and 1960's.
It was just custom and since everyone did it, no one thought it strange.
I do, though, have to tell people who see the picture for the first time that it is my father and not my grandmother.
Title: Re: Imperial Women's, Men's and Children's Clothing & Accessories
Post by: Martyn on October 05, 2005, 07:48:20 AM
Good points Alixz, thank you for sharing them with us.

Old photos such as these are so precious, as they afford us a glimpse of a different way of life to ours......