Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Anya on September 06, 2004, 05:48:13 AM

Title: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Anya on September 06, 2004, 05:48:13 AM
What happened to Yakov Yurovsky after the terrible night of July 17th??Did he still work for the Comunists for the rest of his life? I've read that his daughter died in one of Stalin's gulags, is that truth??

Thanks.
Anya
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Greg_King on September 06, 2004, 07:46:16 AM
See my short biography of him on this site under "Palace Biographies," or for a long discussion you can check out "The Fate of the Romanovs" by myself and Penny Wilson.

Greg King
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Anya on September 06, 2004, 09:24:42 AM
Thanks! It helped a lot!

Anya
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on September 06, 2004, 10:11:53 AM
Find Yurovsky's 1934 testimony on the following URL:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html

I think I've seen only two photographs of Yurovsky.  Anyone have either that they can post here?

Quote
See my short biography of him on this site under "Palace Biographies," or for a long discussion you can check out "The Fate of the Romanovs" by myself and Penny Wilson.
Greg King


Where [URL] is "Palace Biographies"?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2004, 10:29:25 AM
Palace Biographies main page:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/characterstext.html

Yurovsky bio, with photo:
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovski_bio.html  
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2004, 01:02:17 PM
Yurovsky died in the 1930's. If his son is to be believed, he came to regret his role in murdering the Romanovs. He did, however, remain a loyal Bolshevik throughout the purges and yes I believe his daughter was sent to the gulag.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Forum Admin on September 09, 2004, 10:49:47 AM
Penny sent me three photos of Yurovsky. One early-mid 1918, about the time of the Ekaterinburg imprisonment. The second is Y with his family ca. 1925. The third is Y in Moscow c. 1933-4, fairly shortly before his death.
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky1.jpg )(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky2.jpg )(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky3.jpg )
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Candice on September 09, 2004, 12:39:53 PM
When did Yurovsky's daughter go to the gulag?

Candice
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Alexa on September 09, 2004, 01:15:56 PM
Quote
When did Yurovsky's daughter go to the gulag?

Candice


And what did she apparantly do to get sent there?

Alexa
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: IlyaBorisovich on September 09, 2004, 03:44:06 PM
If you believe Solzhenitsyn (Gulag Archipeligo, The First Circle, One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich), then it may have been as simple as a phone call to the CHEKA from a jealous co-worker.  Millions went into Gulag never knowing what they did, or were supposed to have done, if anything.

Ilya
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Annie on September 09, 2004, 04:17:51 PM
Quote
If you believe Solzhenitsyn (Gulag Archipeligo, The First Circle, One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich), then it may have been as simple as a phone call to the CHEKA from a jealous co-worker.  Millions went into Gulag never knowing what they did, or were supposed to have done, if anything.

Ilya


I do believe him! Similar stuff happens in the US today, not with the government, but with employers, and neighbors turning each other in for things to get them into trouble, coworkers claiming sexual harrassment after a relationship went sour, (I know 2 people this happened to personally, one a man, one a woman) and things like that. Oh, and school too, kids get other kids in trouble for things they didn't do, or weren't alone in doing. It's sad people have to do such mean spirited vindictive thngs to each other and nobody bothers to check it out.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 09, 2004, 11:52:36 PM
I am not an expert on the Soviet period, but I believe there was a gradual correction of wrongs under Stalin. First came the denunciations by Khruschev and others. Then prisoners were released, then mechanisms were set up to review the millions of cases. Many people did not have their names cleared until the 1980's. The sheer numbers of cases must have been staggering. I believe Bukharin - who did nothing wrong - did not have his name cleared until the 1980's. So the 1970's would have been relatively soon, Soviet-wise.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Alexa on September 10, 2004, 08:23:37 AM
Thanks for all the information on Rimma Yakovlena.  I never knew any of that happened, and find it interesting that the government Yurovsky and his family helped create turned on them.

Alexa
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: jackie3 on September 10, 2004, 09:48:34 AM
Quote
Thanks for all the information on Rimma Yakovlena.  I never knew any of that happened, and find it interesting that the government Yurovsky and his family helped create turned on them.

Alexa


Indeed. I haven't read Greg and Penny's book (yet!) but I wonder if Yurovsky ever thought of the young lives he snuffed out in such a brutal manner when he looked upon his daughter or perhaps thought it was fate/karma coming back to him his daughter was sent to the labor camps by the government and apparatus of terror he had helped create.

I know we've gone over in several threads the  deserved hatred for the Romanovs by (some) Russians but I'm sorry - I'll never be able to understand how someone with young children can so easily kill (and in the most brutal and prolonged way possible) other innocent children. The closest modern counterpart IMO is the suicide bombers in Israel who so convinced in the rightness of their cause and their ideology/religion target areas where there are children (or buses containing children) but who themselves have children at home.  Perhaps Yurovsky was like that.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2004, 05:16:55 PM
According to the British officer Francis McCullagh who interviewed Yurovsky on 8 March 1920,   Yurovsky's attitudes about the executions and aftermath are  in various lines found on pps. 510-11 in the King and Wilson book The Fate of the Romanovs:

(1) "Yurovsky...hated to be recognized, with the whispers and fears of vengeance that inevitably followed."
(2) "...McCullagh became conscious of Yurovsky's 'feelings of remorse and horror' at the murders of the Romanovs."
(3) "He also had a distinct impression of a 'dreadful secret' that 'weighed on Yurovsky when I met him.'"

What was this "dreadful secret"?

Did the arrest of his daughter Rimma  have anything to do with her actitivities or was it done to show Yurovsky that he best continue to keep  some "dreadful secret"?

I dug around Radzinsky's book on The Last Tsar and found on p. 428 his mention of Medvedev's son who had talked about Yurovsky who "had a bad heart and suffered dreadfully over his daughter.  But there was nothing he could do.  There was no way he could help her."  

Nearing death, Yurovsky wrote a letter to his children. . 429  "Dear Zhenya and Shura?...."  Ahhhh, and here we find his thoughts of his past and his part in the execution:  "...fate has not insulted me, a man who has passed through three storms with Lenin and Lenin's men may consider himself the happiest of mortals...." Then he goes on to say "I embrace you, I kiss Rimma, your wives, and my grandchildren.  Father."  He speaks of no regrets of his part in what happen the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Even on his dying day,  if he did have a "secret" he couldn't speak about "the secret" because  Stalin might have  threated Yurovsky that his son Alexander or other members of his family  [even all of them] might end up in prision too.

Stalin was not anyone's fool.  He knew if he placed the ill Yurovsky into prison that questions from the foreign press would dig up old news and old news with Yurovsky was the missing Romanov grave/graves....

My question to the photograph above on the family.  I see two sons.  What was the name of the other son in the photo and what happened to him?  Did Yurovsky have other children not shown in this particular photo?  He mentioned grandchildren, does anyone know their names?


p. 511  King and Wilson go into detail about Yurovsky's daughter Rimma who was "leader in the Konsomol Youth Organization" and "secretary of the Konsomol Central Committee" Doesn't sound line she was a threat to the communist....  Yet, she was arrested for "revolutionary activitiy and sent to a Soviet labor camp, where she spent the next quarter century imprisioned under Stalin."   Any data on her release since it appears someone knows she spent about 25 years in prison?  Is she still alive?  Dead?  If so, when did she die and where?  Did she ever claim she was a "revolutionary"?

AGRBear

PS
Almost forgot.  Yurovsky mentions  "...fate has not insulted me, a man who has passed through three storms with Lenin and Lenin's men may consider himself the happiest of mortals...."  What were the three storms to which he was referring???  

PSS  
I wandered here and there on this post.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 18, 2004, 09:12:41 PM
Is it my imagination or does the middle picture look just like Lenin?  ;)
Quote
Penny sent me three photos of Yurovsky. One early-mid 1918, about the time of the Ekaterinburg imprisonment. The second is Y with his family ca. 1925. The third is Y in Moscow c. 1933-4, fairly shortly before his death.
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky1.jpg )(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky2.jpg )(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/yurovsky3.jpg )

Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on October 02, 2004, 04:12:57 PM
Quote
Is it my imagination or does the middle picture look just like Lenin?  ;)



Hmmmmm,  the photo does look like Lenin.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Dashkova on October 02, 2004, 04:38:29 PM
Quote


Hmmmmm,  the photo does look like Lenin.

AGRBear



OMG!  :D  I was thinking it looked like Dr. Botkin!!
**Lenin**?  Please pay a visit to Google images and report back!
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on October 20, 2004, 05:16:34 PM
The following is what King tells us about Yurovsky's quotes on the missing bodies from the grave in Pig's Meadow:

Quote
Elisabeth-
I haven't yet mastered the art of being able to cut and paste random quotes, but in reply to your post of 18 October, concerning Yurovsky's motivation in possibly lying about the two missing bodies/separate grave:

To me, at least, it is a plausible theory.  You mention a lack of motive, but I see plenty of motive.  First, let's start with the assumption (whether right or wrong, for the sake of argument here) that two bodies were indeed missing when they got to the Koptyaki Forest.  We know Yurovsky sent almost everyone gathered there away from the scene on the pretext of the jewels hidden in clothing.  It is I think equally possible he sent them away because he wanted to narrow the field of witnesses to only those men on whom he could rely.  So, under this hypothesis, whom does Yurovsky lie to?  Not to the few trusted men still there, and we know both he and Ermakov spent the morning of 17 July before a special emergency meeting of the Ural Regional Soviet's Presidium, essentially getting raked over the coals for something-Isai Rodzinsky hints that this was because of "what had happened."  But what had happened?  The murders?  Everyone knew those were coming.  So it had to be something else, something that happened during the murders or immediately after.  I suspect that these uncomfortable interviews concerned the two missing bodies.  Yurovsky doesn't lie to these men-Beloborodov, Goloshchokin, etc.-after all, they're all in this together, with their collective necks hanging out in the wind from having killed everyone aganst Moscow's orders.  He HAS to trust these guys.  But when it comes to Moscow, that's another issue.  He has every reason to lie to Moscow if through his bungling or lack of order two bodies went missing.  What seems to have happened, as far as I'm concerned, is that a few of the principals involved-Ermakov, Yurovsky, Nikulin, Rodzinsky, Sukhorukov, Kudrin-all of these guys have a pow-wow and it's agreed that Moscow can't know they bungled, so they agree to a cover story-that they burnt the missing bodies.  Only this "accepted version" gets considerably tangled as different people tell different versions, from how many were burnt to where and when; all of them only got 1 basic thing in agreement-that bodies were burned.  Which is why I tend to think it's a hasty cover story to protect themselves from Moscow.

Yurovsky certainly wouldn't admit this in his 1920 Note, which he only wrote at the direction of Soviet historian Michael Pokrovsky, and which he knew would be seen by those in power.  So he sticks to the cover story.  Same with his 1934 talk.  But in 1922, when he writes his private memoirs, which he keeps in his family and remain a secret until his son Alexander hands them over to the Soviet Government in the early 1970s, he slips up and says he only tried to burn a single body.  I don't think you can put that down to him being unconcerned about details or the number of victims-having read his 1922 memoir in its entirety, it is very detailed.  Moscow knew how many people had actually been shot-he couldn't add or subtract victims-his mistake was just that, whereas in his 1922 memoir he was quite clear about attempting to burn only one body.

It's possible, though completely unproved, that the grave was opened in 1927-28, but if so, why would Stalin simply remove the two sets of remains buried separately and not obliterate the others?  That doesn't make sense-especially as he already had Yurovsky's 1920 Note which conveniently explained away the two missing bodies should anyone ever look.  All the Soviet government had to do was to produce it and say, "Here's why they're missing!"  Simply removing two, while leaving the other nine, seems illogical.

I suspect, though it's simply a hypothesis, that someone who knew what happened talked-and this started the ball rolling as it were in 1927-28.  After this, the people who would have known either start dropping like flies, being arrested, or suddenly get special government pensions or write absurd memoirs claiming all manner of inaccuracies.

Admittedly, there's no absolute proof that a second grave didn't exist, but nor is there a shred of evidence to support the idea that it did outside of the few memoirs, which contradict each other and make claims unsupported by science.  Given the weight of the evidence, that's why I suspect Yusovsky lied and that Anastasia and Alexei were missing.  And as I have said elsewhere, their absence doesn't equal survival, but without their remains it does mean that their deaths on that the night of 16-17 July, 1918, remain only a theory.

Greg King


AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on October 25, 2004, 02:40:26 PM
Can you tell me where this pic. of Yurovsky of 1933 was found?

<<The third is Y in Moscow c. 1933-4, fairly shortly before his death. >>

Thanks

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 21, 2005, 05:12:40 PM
There are some differences in various testimonies of Yurovsky and others as to what occured from the 15th to the 18th of July 1918 [N.S.] .  So, how can we show the differences and still discuss the without losing the flow?

I noticed the Timeline threads seem to work out well.  So, let us work with dates and time so we can all be on the same page during our debates which I'm sure will occur.

Perhaps we should start with something simple and upon which most of us can agree.

Let's start the Timeline on 2 July / 15th of July 1918.

A LIFE LONG PASSION by Maylunas and Mironenko: p. 633

2 July/15 July 1918
Yurovsky:

>> I sarted the prepartation already on the 15th, as everything had to be done as quickly as possible.

I decided to use as many men as there were people to be shot, gathered them together and after explaining the task, told them that everything had to be ready so that when we received our final instructions we could carry everything out efficiently.<<

I do not see Maylunas and Mironenko's source.  I checked Yurovsky's 1920 testimony and this starts with the 16th of July.  However, his 1 Feb 1934 does have this statement about the "preparation" on the 15th.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Finelly on July 21, 2005, 07:58:07 PM
Bear, excellent idea to start this thread.  I am not going to have time to delve into my various books on the Romanovs to contribute to the thread until sometime this weekend, but I will do so!
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 22, 2005, 11:18:34 AM
There isn't an entry in Nicholas II's diary and hasn't been since 21 June/4 July.

No entry in Alexandra's dairy.


Anyone have any more information about  2 July/15 July?

AGRBear

PS
Thanks Finelly.  And the more help on this project the better!
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2005, 10:43:13 AM
So, the shooters were brought together.  And they were:

Greg King: >>The shooters were: Yurovsky; Kudrin; Nikulin; Ermakov; Medvedev; Soames; Netrebin; the two Kabanov brothers; and Lacher.  Of them, Yurovsky, Kudrin, Nikulin, Ermakov, Medvedev, and Netrebin were all ethnic Great Russians; Soames and the two Kabanovs were Balts; Lacher was an Austrian, and the only foreign shooter.

This is King and Wilson's list.  In earlier books the list is about the same but different, perhaps do to the lack of informtion.  I'll go and get that list so we can see the difference.

Oh, we must not forget the guards who declined to be shooters.  I'll have to go find their names, too.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2005, 10:47:48 AM
When the "shooters" were together, they were assigned or choose which of the eleven they would be in charge of shooting/killing.

Edvard Radzinsky's book, The Last Tsar, p. 341-2.  And so I had written:  
"The shooters were and who was listed as their target:  
1. Commandant Yakov Yurovsky - Tsaritsa  
2. Peter Ermakov - Tsar  
3. Nikulin - Alexei & Marie  
4. Mikhail Medvedev (Kudrin) - Tsar's daughter [not named]  
5. Pavel Medvedev - daughter  [not named]  
6-11. Latvians from the CHEKA - finished off the others "

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2005, 11:07:16 AM
Mangold and Summers'  FILE ON THE TSAR:

pps. 119 to 120:

From Medvedev statement given 21-22 Feb 1919 to White investigators is the following list:

Yurovsky
Yermakov = Emrakov
stranger [tall, blonde about 26 or 26)
Seven Letts

How does his story differ, he tells us that Yurovsky did not tell them about the execution on the 15th but told him/them on  the 16th:

THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS by Steinberg and Khrustalev have Medvedev's report and on p. 348 he continues:

"Latvians from the "Latvian comune" were on the lower floor of the Ipatiev house, having moved in there after Yurovsky took up his post as commandant.  There were ten of them.  I don't know any of them by name or surname."

p. 147

>>I took up duty the night of 16 July, and around 8 o'clock the same evening, Commandant Yurovsky ordered me to confiscate all the Nagant revolvers in the detachment and bring them to him.  I took revolvers from those at their posts... brought them to the commandant's office.  Then Yurovsky said to me:  "Today we'll have to shoot everybody.  Warn the detchments so they won't worry if they hear shots."

Many of us assume that Medvedev's story differed because he didn't want the Whites to know his full involvement in the events which occured on the 16th to the 17th of July in the Ipatiev House.  If this is indeed the case, then we have to pick and choose what part of his story is true, fiction and what part he's leaving out because his role in the events.....  

Whatever the truth is,  it appears that we can not trust Pavel Medvedev's statement at full face or in part or ......

So, is there any other eye witnesses who can tell us about the 15th and yuovsky having called them together?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2005, 11:32:37 AM
Yurovsky's statement 1 Feb 1934:

p. 357 in FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:

"On the morning of 15 July Filipp [Goloshchekik] said that things had to be finished off tomorrow."  "...Nicholas was to be executed and that we should officially announe it, but when it came to the family, then perhaps it would be annnounced, but no one knew yet how, when, and in what manner."

"On the 15th I immmediately undertook preparations, for everything had to be done quickly...."   It's here we learn the following from Yurovsky.  "..the situation arose that two Latvians refused [to partisicpate]-- they didn't have it it them."

Anyone remember who they were and give us a source.

Busy busy day,  so, gotta get going.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Finelly on July 24, 2005, 07:12:57 PM
I located the names of the two individuals in The Fate of the Romanovs, p. 300 of the hard-cover version.

"one of those who refused to shoot was,ironically, Adolf Lepa, commandor of the factory battalion; the other was Andras Verhas, a Hungarian prisoner of war. "  The source is, on p. 591, "Netrebin, in TsDOOSO, f.4, op.1, d.149"

The paragraph continues:  "Having been dismissed, Lepa and Verhas fled to the Popov House across Vomesensky Lane, where the battalion commander spent the night, as Guard Michael Letemin recalled, complaining about the murders."
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2005, 12:16:43 PM
Thanks Finelly who gave us the answer about who the two guards were who refused to be shooters.

Finelly wrote: >>....Adolf Lepa, commandor of the factory battalion; the other was Andras Verhas, a Hungarian prisoner of war...>>

Is there any other testimony from any of the guards which tells us anything more about  15 July.... ??

AGRBear

PS:
2 July is the  O.S. [Old Style] and N.S. [New Style]  is the 15th of July.  
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2005, 03:14:45 PM
I just made a new discovery.

Did you know on the 16th of June the Bolshviks reintroduced "capital punishment".

This was four days after the uncrown Tsar Michael was executed.

Wonder if Michael's execution would have been considered illegal according to the laws on the books if a trial had taken place and declared guilty of crimes against the state.  Under the law life imprisionment would have been the most he could have been given as his sentence for a crime.   After the 16th, the Soviets, if they so chose, could executed Nicholas II under the letter of their newly reinstated law of "captial punishment" if found guilty of crimes against the new Soviet state.

Yes, I know, off topic but I just thought it was interesting tid-bit of history, since there was talk by the Moscow Soviet to have Nicholas II stand trial.

Anyway, I'm still digging around for information about the shooters on the day of the 15th.


Massie writes in THE FINAL CHAPTER p. 6:
>>Two days before the execution, Yurovsky and one of the other executioners, Peter Ermakov...had gone into the forest loooking for a place to bury the bodies.  About 12 miles north of Ekaterinburg in an area of swamps, peat bosgs and abandone mines shafters, there was a place known as the Four Brothers becuase four towering pine trees had once overlooked the site.<<  >>The largest of these, named after a peasant prospector was called Ganin's Pit.  Nearby, other smaller deeper mines were nameless.  It was to this place that Yurovsky brought the bodies.<<

I do not know where Massie gained his information about Yurovsky and Ermakov going together to the Four Brothers on the 15th  [two days before the early morning hours of the 17th of July when it's said the execution took place].

But this doesn't seem right since Yurovsky blamed Ermakov for not knowing where the place was in those early morning hours as they were moving the 11 bodies.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2005, 03:38:45 PM
What was happening outside of Ekaaterinburg is just as interesting.

Let us take a look at a map of the position of the Whites.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/5X7.jpg)

And, remember, Ekaterinburg was the one time capital city of the Red Urals, so, to be on the edge of losing their capital meant at this time they were faltering in their war campaign against the Whites.

The headquarters of the CHEKA in Ekaterinburg was in the Hotel Amerika, Room 13.

So who was visiting Room 13?

List:
1)  Filipp Goloshchekin, who had been Military Commissar from Dec 1917, and had just been in Moscow.  
2) I presume - Yurovsky.
3) I presume - Ermakov whom Goloshchekin had given the duty to find a place to dispose of the bodies after their execution
4) Alexander Beloborodov - Chairman of the Ural Reginal Soviets after Jan. of 1918

Subtract or add to this list???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on July 27, 2005, 04:08:32 PM
FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson p. 291:

>>While Yurovsky busied himself at the House of Special Purpose, Beloborodov and Goloshchokin remained at the Hotel America..."  

This as the 16th of July.  Can one assume they were there on the 15th preparing and giving orders?  Does someone have a source telling us one or both were not in Ekaterinburg until the 16th.

Here's someting p. 288:
>>The Ekaterinburg to which Goloshehokin returned on the early morning of  July 12 was poised on the edge of a volcano.  With the main railroad lines cut, and the Trans-Sberian Railroad in the hads of the White and Czech forces, it was only days before the city itself fell.  Wlaking into the Hotel America, Goloshchokin called an urgent meeting of the Ural Regional Presidum and leaders of the Ekaterinburg CHEKA.  By five that afternoon, the most important Ural Bolsheivks sat clustered around the baize-topped talbe at the center of Room 3<< [Room 13??]. >>, listening with tired faces as Goloshchokin delivered a report of his visit to Moscow."

Over on p. 290 it appears they were waiting for a telegram for two days for a response from Reinhold Berzin, commander of the Northern Urals.  The telegram would not arrive until the third day, the 16th of July.

Speaking of telegrams, are there any which survived dated the 15th from or to  Moscow  or from or to   Beloborodov, who had been given direct telegram contact with Moscow?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 03:26:05 PM
Couldn't find any telegrams which survived that was delivered from or to Moscow by CHEKA, Soviets of the Urals or Moscow....

There is a hint of one.... due to Sokolov's own words when he discusses a telegram using the word "evacuation" and no known telegram with this word has been found.

If there were any telegrams sent on 15 July,  it has since vanished.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Finelly on August 16, 2005, 03:56:31 PM
I can't find the book, because it is buried under the other books piled here on the floor......but it seems to me that Radzinsky, in The Last Tsar, had something about telegrams on the 15th.....
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 03:56:35 PM
Found this on p. 335 THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS for the Monday 2/15 July 1918

"Greyish morning.  Later sunshine.  Lucnhed on the couch in the big room, as women came to clean the dloors, then lay on my bed again & read with Maria J. Sirach. [Ecclesiasticus] 26-31.  They went out twice as usual.  In the morning T. read to me spir. Readings. Still no Vl. Nik. [Derevenko]--.  In at 6 1/2 Baby had  his second bath -- Besique.  Wnet to bed at 10 1/4--11 1/4 of warmth at 10 1/2 evening.  Heard the report of an artillery sot in the night and several revolver shots."

Not sure why the 2/15 July is missing from the book A LIVELONG PASSING, NICHOLAS AND ALEXANDERA, THEIR OWN STORY by Maylunas and Mironenko.

This tells us the Alexei is improving in health.

Also tells us that women came into the Ipatiev House and cleaned.

THE FILE ON THE TSAR p. 51:  There is testimony from one of the cleaning ladies:  >>....overheard Yurovsky chatting to Alexei, asking after his health"   Then they go to tell us:  >>When the nuns came with their milk, Yurovsky asked for milk for the following day plus 50 eggs in a basket.  He also passed a note from onte of the emperor's daughters, asking for thread."

And, why does the same book not tell us that on  1/14 , July, Sunday that Father Storozhev and his deacon visted the Romanovs to hold service.  This information is found p. 49 in Summers and Mangold THE FILE ON THE TSAR?

In THE FALL OF THE ROMANOVS there is more about Sunday.
"Beautiful summer morning.  Scarely slept because of back and legs.  
10 1/2.  Had the joy on an obednitsa [litury without communion]--the young Priest for the 2nd time.
11 1/2  The others walked --O. with me.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 04:05:37 PM
Since I have all these books open to diaries, lets go into
3 / 16 July 1918.

Alexandra writes:

"Grey monring, later lovely sunshine.  Baby has a slight cold.  All went out 1/2 hour in the morning, Olga & I arranged our medicines [jewelry].  T. read Spir. Readings 3. They went out, T. stayed with me & read: Book of the Pr. Amos & Pr. Obadiah.  Tatted.  Every morning the Command. comes to our rooms, at last after a week brought eggs again for Baby.

8 o'lock Supper.

Suddenly Lenka Sednyov was fetched to go & see his Uncle & flew off--wondered whether its true & we shall see the boy back again!
Played bezigque with N.

10 1/2 to bed.  15 degrees [59 degrees F.]""

Last entry in Alexandra's diary.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 04:13:12 PM
Yourvsky's account:

p. 634 LIFELONG PASSION

>>Yurovsky  On the morning of the 16th, I sent away the kitchen-boy Sednev....The faithful go-between Botkin, and then one of the daughters tried to find out where, why and for ow long Sednev had been taken away.  On hearing the explanation, they went away seemingly reassured.

Twleve revolvers were prepared, and it was decided who would shoot at whom.  Conrade Filipp [Goloschekin] informed me that a lorry would come at midnight, that the newcomers were to be admitted on giving the password, and the bodies handed over to them, to be taken away for burial."<<

Alexandra said Lenka Sednev was sent away in the evening and Yurovsky reclls he was sent away in the morning.

ARBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 04:23:24 PM
Summers and Mangold FILE ON THE TSAR p. 51:

>> Tuesday, 16 July, the sisters delivered the thread, and the milk and eggs.  Two guards later testified that they saw the imperial family in the afternoon exercising as usual.  That evening, as the anti-Communist forces drew closer and closer to Ekaterinburg, there was an early curfew."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on December 10, 2005, 10:02:34 AM
Quote
Yourvsky's account:

p. 634 LIFELONG PASSION

>>Yurovsky  On the morning of the 16th, I sent away the kitchen-boy Sednev....The faithful go-between Botkin, and then one of the daughters tried to find out where, why and for ow long Sednev had been taken away.  On hearing the explanation, they went away seemingly reassured.

Twleve revolvers were prepared, and it was decided who would shoot at whom.  Conrade Filipp [Goloschekin] informed me that a lorry would come at midnight, that the newcomers were to be admitted on giving the password, and the bodies handed over to them, to be taken away for burial."<<

Alexandra said Lenka Sednev was sent away in the evening and Yurovsky reclls he was sent away in the morning.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 12:15:14 PM
Thank you Wilson.

So,  my next questions on Yurovsky are:

Does anyone out there have more details on Yurovsky's life in Germany and why he changed over to the Lutheran  religion?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 22, 2006, 11:11:37 PM
Yurovsky's daughter was named Rimma and since she was a Trotskist, she was sent to a Gulag by Stalin. She always hated Nicholas and his family and said  that "He indeed was Nicholas de bloodthirsty". She survived the Stalin era, but was a resentful and bitter woman the rest of her life.

You may know better about Rimma Yurovsky in Radzhinski's book "The Last Tsar" and in the Wilson-Greg's works "The Fate of the Romanovs".

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Timeline Testimony: Yurovsky/Others
Post by: Mander on January 28, 2006, 10:40:25 PM
If it's possible that the grave was opened in 1927/28 by Stalin and we are unable to find the grave with the 2 sets of remains is it possible that the grave they could have opened was the one containing Alexei and Anastasia? Is it possible that they found and removed their remains but the remains of the other 9 weren't located?